VIDEO: Rumsfeld Called Out On Lies About WMD
VIDEO: Rumsfeld Called Out On Lies About WMD
Speaking in Atlanta today, Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld was sharply questioned about his pre-war claims about WMD in Iraq. An audience member confronted Rumsfeld with his 2003 claim about WMD, “We know where they are.” Rumsfeld falsely claimed he never said it. The audience member then read Rumsfeld’s quote back to him, leaving the defense secretary speechless. Watch it:
Of course, Rumsfeld did say he knew where the WMD were. From ABC’s This Week, 3/30/03:
STEPHANOPOULOS: And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction?
SEC. RUMSFELD: …We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat.
Read the full transcript HERE.
UPDATE: CNN reports that the questioner was 27-year CIA veteran Ray McGovern.
OMG!
May 4th, 2006 at 3:32 pmAre the American people finally coming out of the ether and demanding answers from these criminals?
Maybe there is hope after all.
BTW, Zarqawi wasn't with Al Queda before the war, so he wasn't a target. What a red herring! And the troops didn't determine there was WMD, it was Rumsfeld and Co. who ordered the troops to go into the situation with the impression that WMD would be used against them. Rumsfeld nearly choked on his own lies... so close!
May 4th, 2006 at 3:33 pmThere are a lot of "Thank You" sites out there, thanking people for speaking up. Will this gentlman get one as well?
1) http://thankyouharrytaylor.org/
May 4th, 2006 at 3:35 pm2) http://www.thankyoustephencolbert.org/
The man who asked these questions was so articulate, so well informed, so damn good! And, right now I am clapping my hands so loud to cheer Think Progress for finding this video. Definitely posting in our headline news section today..........
May 4th, 2006 at 3:37 pmpatriotdaily.com
Bravo Ray McGovern!
May 4th, 2006 at 3:37 pmThe questioner was that nutcase, Ray McGovern. You know, the guy who says the next terror attack on America would be done by Bush and the US government.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:38 pmAnd did anyone check to make sure the Defense Secretary's pants weren't on fire at the time?
May 4th, 2006 at 3:39 pmHere is a comment I posted on Larry Johnson's article on Talking Point Meno:
Delusional at The American Spectator
By Larry Johnson |
http://www.tpmcafe.com/node/29413#comment
On May 2, 2006 - 11:56am EasyRider said:
Thanks Daniel, I think the whole war plan was laid out as photo-ops for the American public to be covered by the media. My opinion is based on the "What did they know" and "When did they know it."
The administration wanted the greatest photo-op a war could bring. Everything this administration has done has been done for photo-ops and not for effective management or leadership, but for the image of being competent judged on the photo-op. Every opportunity available has been exploited to max for the Public Relation image of the administration. Every person where the president goes is checked out before he shows up. Every step is plan. The photo-op on the pile of Dead at ground-zero was staged down to being told stand on that pile, who the fireman with the blow horn is and where he will be, and to take the blow horn from the fireman. But back to the war plan based on the information that is coming out now the whole thing was a stage for Bush to play Commander-in-Chief with the whole invasion force as a backdrop.
Having been told that there was no WMD why was their use played up so much? Why did we handicap our military by forcing them to wear the Chem suits? The wearing of the Chem suits got lots of coverage. How many men and women died in combat because they were under orders to wear the chem suits while the administration knew there were no WMDs? Unneeded Chem suits are provided and are ordered to be worn, while the needed body armor, armored Humvees,. replacing combat troops with military police units, or retraining tank crews to be military police, and other needed equipment is not provided.
Everything this administration has done is for photo-ops, not national security or the security of our men and women in the military.
Demand the Truth for America
reply | write to author | link | Rated 4 by 2 users.
EasyRider
May 4th, 2006 at 3:39 pmRUMSFELD: My words — my words were that — no, no, wait a minute, wait a minute. Let him stay one second. Just a second.
From this statement it looks like security was moving in to scoop up the trouble maker.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:39 pmI dont' think this will go to far though. If you parse his statements, he can say that he knew the locations of "suspected" WMD facilities. I am sure the 33 will choose to believe this.
Notice he used the word "somewhat" - now he will try to claim that meant he didn't really know where they were... sicko.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:39 pmGreat that the questions are being asked, sad that it has taken so long, and so much death.
Rummy justed aged another 10 years.
Rummy is a liar! Liar, liar pants on fire!
May 4th, 2006 at 3:39 pmRumsfeld: “I’m not in the intelligence business.†Neither is anyone else in the Bush Administration.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:43 pmWhen will this nightmare be over....?
May 4th, 2006 at 3:44 pmIs anyone else surprised that Rummy is still able to meet with a room full of people that 'boo' those trying to hold his feet to the fire and applaud Rummy's nonsensical responses....?
This person did an excellent job in asking these questions and following up on the lack of meaningful responses from Rummy. Rummy looked like an idiot using the troops' beliefs and Powell's presentation as evidence to support anything.
No responsibility, no credibility.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:46 pmA thing of beauty!!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 3:46 pm#
The questioner was that nutcase, Ray McGovern. You know, the guy who says the next terror attack on America would be done by Bush and the US government.
Comment by Red and Karly Pyoub — May 4, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
Nice ad hominem attack. So his tough questioning of Don Rumsfeld, needs to be discounted, and Rumsfelds answers or lack of answers needs to be ignored. I can already see this on redstate,
Crazy liberal asks inane questions of our brave Defense Secretary.
I think it is great that McGovern is bringing to the fore every lie told by the Bush adminstration. I think it is great he is exposing them. I hope he and hundreds of others like him continue to push and shove until we have full accountability.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:50 pmAmazing. I am surprised this got some play on MSM.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:54 pmDemocracy for America has just announced it's latest 3 DFA-List candidates and i am pleased to see that my candidate, Kirsten Gillibrand is one of them.
Kirsten has said that if elected she will immediately call for or support investigations into the Bush administrations lies and deceptions that led us into this ill-begotten war. She has also said that Rumsfeld ought to be replaced.
If we are to take control of the House of Representatives we will need a gain of 15 seats. Kirsten's seat in NY-20 is the 15th seat. Please check her out and consider contributing if you can. We need to get rid of a particularly repugnant republican congressman in John Sweeney (R-Animal House) and can elect a fantastic woman at the same time by making sure Kirsten gets sent to congress in November.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:54 pmHe also said that he wasn't in the intelligence business. Doesn't the DIA (Defense Intelligence Agancy) work for him?
May 4th, 2006 at 3:56 pm#6 The questioner was that nutcase, Ray McGovern.
And "nutcase" would be your little pet name for a person who speaks the truth or points out that a lying sack of sh*t is indeed a lying sack of sh*t?
May 4th, 2006 at 3:56 pmWhy did rawstory call this guy a heckler? He seems to voice valid questions.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:58 pm]Once again, one of the leading deceivers of this criminal enterprise known as the Bush administration is caught dead to rights in a lie. Not to worry, though, no reporter will see fit to follow this embarrassing display up with a follow up grilling, nor will any mainstream print media expose this jackal for the lying, decrepit piece of cowardly sh** that he is. His boss and the 32% of morons that support him will not be moved. Come on November, come on Congressional elections, let's defeat Diebold, and get the indictments going.
May 4th, 2006 at 3:59 pmRummy said that he wasn't in the intelligence business. It's too bad for him that McGovern was. Thanks for the clip.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:00 pmWow, and exactly 3 years to the day that Rummy gave his North-South-East-West declaration too...
May 4th, 2006 at 4:01 pmIT'S ABOUT DARN TIME! We want to hear what people are saying without their being called "hecklers." This guy asked a reasonable question. We have been fed that lie about WMD a million times - directly and indirectly. We were fooled. We were lied to. It's about time that some REAL questions were asked.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:02 pmWhat do you mean he isn't in the Intelligence business. He is the Secretary of Defense. He is in charge of the Defense intelligence Agency and all of the intelligence agencies of the individual branches of the DOD.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:02 pmRumsfeld: Owned
May 4th, 2006 at 4:03 pmMajority of American People: Still Don't have a friggin' clue
That's what we call a non sequitor!
Yes, can we PLEASE start educatign the American people how to see through the b.s.?
Carl Sagan's b.s. detector kits for everyone this Christmas (err, holiday season)!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:04 pmWho are these people booing? Did the plant cheerleaders in the event like they do for Bush?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:07 pmRay mcGovern should be more switched on to the statement by Rumfeld that " Saddam used Chemical weapons on His own people "
While the United States did not supply full-fledged chemical weapons to Iraq, it did approve private business sales of biological weapon precursors to Iraq, according to a 1994 report issued by the US Senate Committee on Banking, Housing and Urban Affairs (aka the Riegle Report.) It should be noted that the report does not provide proof of U.S. involvement in Iraqi chemical weapons and that the gas attack was carried out by Mustard gas and not a biological weapon. In addition, there is no evidence that Iraq ever used biological weapons in combat during the war with Iran.
The US also provided satellite photographs and battlefield intelligence to Iraq which it knew was to be used in "calibrating" Iraqi chemical weapons attacks against Iran Furthermore, the US provided dual use helicopters, ostensibly for crop spraying, which intelligence sources believe were used to deploy the chemical weapons in Halabja
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Halabja_poison_gas_attack
May 4th, 2006 at 4:07 pmI'm glad he pointed out Rumsfeld's non-sequitor, that the troops war protective gear because they "believed" they would encounter chemical weapons. The point is they believed it because he lied.
Pity that Rumsfeld counts on the public not knowing the term non-sequitor.
I may even be spelling it wrong. "er"?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:07 pmcorrection "they"
May 4th, 2006 at 4:07 pmI am just FUMING at Rumsfeld, the crowd, and the people that tried to remove the individual who asked the question. Usually it's just a low-boiling anger at this type of stuff but man I am steamed. What a grade A douchebag!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:07 pm[...] QUESTION: So I would like to ask you to be up front with the American people, why did you lie to get us into a war that was not necessary, that has caused these kinds of casualties? why? [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 4:08 pmsquirm, squirm, squirm
Avoid the question...
How the HELL did that guy get in here...
hehehe
May 4th, 2006 at 4:09 pmGood for Ray McGovern and the others disrupting Rummy's flapping of the lips. This should happen every single time anyone from this administration speaks in front of an audience.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:10 pm#21, it is to attempt to make people have the perception that the person should not be taken seriously. The MSM and the so called administration do it all the time.
Personally I feel this guy is another true Patriot. Those that don't fear speaking the truth to power. In the company of those like Cindy Sheehan, Martin Luther King, Rosa Parks, Thomas Jefferson, F.D. Rosevelt and Stephen Colbert.
Dumbsfailed was speechless when the guy used his quote to correct the "great and powerful" dumbsfailed.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:11 pmSince Dems and Repubs knew Saddam to have used WMD's - I think Ray McGovern (any relation to failed dove-candidate, George McGovern???) was a "book looking for a title". Simply put - his extreme left wing agenda is his agenda - he illustrates the beauty of democracies. Of course, he wouldn't be able to ask a second question of a similar nature in Saddam's Iraq, Stalin's USSR, Mao's China or Ho's Viet Nam....
May 4th, 2006 at 4:11 pm#21
May 4th, 2006 at 4:14 pmThat's a good point. Why use the word heckler? If he was a heckler wouldn't he just say something like "Hey Rummy, Rummy, Rummy...LIAR!" Sounded like pretty civil questioning to me.
So what that Zarqawi was in Iraq. That's supposed to be proof positive of a link between Al Qaeda and Saddam? That's like saying because the 9/11 terrorists were here in the USA, that proves a link between them and Bush.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:14 pm#42, you don't know how right you are with your last sentence.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:16 pmThe way it goes id:
Rumsfeld decides. He's a decider.
The spinners spin.
The press types.
then, most importantly...the press pushed the delete button when the decider decides to send it down the memery hole.
Someone forgot the last step.
Press delete and it never happened, right?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:18 pmLet's just move along folks. Nothing to see here. MA has given us all the talking points. It's nice to know that holding our government accountable for lies that have led us into an unnecessary war is an "extreme left wing agenda". Apparently right wingers don't care why we go to war as long as they get to kill something.
MA is not human it is a mutant.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:18 pmOf course, he wouldn’t be able to ask a second question of a similar nature in Saddam’s Iraq, Stalin’s USSR, Mao’s China or Ho’s Viet Nam….
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 4, 2006 @ 4:11 pm
...or, for that matter, in a George W. Bush 2004 campaign event.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:18 pm"Nutcase"
Do you have to be a "nutcase" to believe the government is capable of murder and a cover-up? Is that so far beyond the realm of possibility? With a name like "Red", I can only assume that you grew up in the good ole US of A. If you've been alive for the past 50 years, have you been paying attention?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:19 pm#40, and you think Mr. McGovern (relationship irrelavent to this discussion, if it even exists) will get a chance to ask Rumsfeld or any administration official a second question here?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:19 pmMighty weak, Aphrodite.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:20 pmDoesn't it hurt that your heros are liars?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:20 pmOf course, he wouldn’t be able to ask a second question of a similar nature in Saddam’s Iraq, Stalin’s USSR, Mao’s China or Ho’s Viet Nam….
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 4, 2006 @ 4:11 pm
... or, for that matter, at a George W. Bush 2004 campaign event.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:21 pmI like how other sources frame him as a "protestor." He is just a concerned citizen. I don't believe he was holding a sign or picketing to make him a "protestor."
May 4th, 2006 at 4:22 pmmore importantly, MA, how does it feel being part of the mere 32%. I'd watch your back if I were you.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:22 pmNo decent, must not have decent. Screen all attendees, no decentors, no thoughtful questions, no hardballs.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:23 pmI highly recommend reading "American Hiroshima" by David Dionisi. In this book he talks about "Operation Northwoods." For all those right-wing fanatics that believe anything and everything this corrupt and immoral Administration tells you, take the time to read this book. You will find actual official U.S. documents that were declassified that pertain to what the US planned to do to engage Cuba during the Cuban Missle Crisis. You will see that their plans very much mirror what we are hearing in regards to Iran and may very well have occurred on 9/11. Read the book, and then let's talk. I really want to know what you think after having read these official documents.
This book is now a play being shown in England and the rights to make a movie have been purchased. I believe that this author and former military intelligence officer will in the near future receive the Nobel Peace Prize.
It should be required reading for every American.
ladyfrancesca
May 4th, 2006 at 4:26 pmI remember Rumsfeld's original remark.
I also remember another quote from him, where he was called on this lie. He said, "Sometimes, I exaggerate for effect." I don't have the exact date, but it was sometime late 2003.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:26 pmI listened to the audio of this right after it happened. Words cannot describe how frozen Dumbfailed was in his shoes when the line of questioning began. It was absolutely amazing. This guy took it right to him like any of us would have wanted to do. The good little brown shirts in the crowd were hand picked Nazis with sworn allegiance to The Party. Their applause whenever Dumbsfailed weakly fought back was not only desparate, but embarrassing.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:27 pmHEH! I love that Rumsfeld made the questioner look foolish! Notice how the audience was cheering and applauding Rumsfeld. I wonder how the questioner felt knowing that he had made a fool out of himself???
May 4th, 2006 at 4:27 pm#57 and #58 go great together...lol.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:29 pm36 years ago today, the Kent State Massacre
May 4th, 2006 at 4:29 pmhttp://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Kent_State_shootings
Why would Runsfeld, Cheney etal, leave finding WMDs to chance. Why not plant them?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:30 pmThey sold Saddam everything he had. I suppose they figured he would have plenty of evidence still around.
Was Saddam smart enough to have seen this play coming and get rid of all the evidence? Were our best and brightest out maneuvered at their own game?
All I can say is, more money for defense annually than the rest of the world combined sure doesn't buy what it used to.
#40 uses the tried and true fallback, that someone who protests a policy with skill should be proud to be in the US because elsewhere, he wouldn't be allowed to do so. Therefore, the reasoning goes, any criticisms are paltry compared to the greater truth, that the USA is #1. Ironically, of course, the person WAS about to be forcibly ejected, you know, just like in Stalin-Mao-etc land. Oh, before our freedom-loving Sect of Defense stepped in to give him one more sentence, that could also be dodged. Yep, with US Govt officials, we are free to ask anything and get no answer.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:30 pm"Not in the intelligence business." Frame, anyone?
That sorry response to vigerous questioning was a dramatic indicator that Rumsfeld has not a vestige of a shred of decency in him, doesn't have a leg to stand on, and is lost in the woods. Woe betide us.
I loved how McGovern was nearly thrown out of the venue by "security" for asking pointed questions. "Getting quite a bit of play..." Jesus, Rumsfeld thinks it's all about attention and camera time, that preening fop. Can that SOB now!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:31 pmAwful anti-perspirant. I can smell the fear from here, right down the cable and into my office.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:31 pmRumsfeld ALSO said the evidence was "bullet proof" like the CIA analyst in the audience pointed out to him. Rumsfeld LIED his ass off and the red stater sycophantic audience ass kissers applauded him! I hope the audience is proud of themselves for applauding someone spewing baldfaced lies to them! I can't believe people are so desperate to think "Happy thoughts" about someone like Rumsfeld that they will blindly applaud and moan and groan with someone like that brave CIA analysts speaks the TRUTH TO POWER!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:31 pmThe WMD's were found west of Bahgdad. About 7000 miles west of Bahgdad in a secret undisclosed location called Washington DC (home of snakes.) A very mythical and mysterious place indeed. A place were truth and reality are just buzz words for lies and deceit. Yes Mr. Bumsfield you sir are a liar. A tragic farce that we Americans are left to deal with and pay for long after your name will mean nothing more than that soft paper we wipe our bungs with. In a better time Dumsfield you sir would be run out of the country with nothing but your pathetic comedy of errors.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:32 pmMr McGovern just earned himself a permanent 86 from future gatherings. His heart must have been pounding...
Kudos - I hope the trend continues.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:32 pmThe caption here is correct, however over at Raw Story linking here, the title says "Heckler Interrupts Rumsfeld" which incorrectly suggests McGovern was the heckler. Actually a woman was escorted out before the audience questioning began, for interrupting Rumsfeld during his speech. She was the "heckler" not Mr. McGovern.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:33 pmAh, I see the questioner was Ray McGovern...Heh! We all remember who ole Ray is, don't we?
"The session took an awkward turn when witness Ray McGovern, a former intelligence analyst, declared that the United States went to war in Iraq for oil, Israel and military bases craved by administration "neocons" so "the United States and Israel could dominate that part of the world." He said that Israel should not be considered an ally and that Bush was doing the bidding of Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon."
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/16/AR2005061601570.html
May 4th, 2006 at 4:34 pmYes---truly, the questioner looked like a fool. When a 30 year veteran of our intelligence services asks a perfectly reasonable question of an official and receives a stuttering, stammering, non-answer, yes---truly it is the questioner that looks foolish.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:36 pmThe Republican party drinks the blood of American soldiers for breakfast. I will fiddle when Rome burns.
[...] Donald Rumsfeld came under fire today in a speech he was making in Atlanta, GA. Think Progress has the video. Brave American! Nice work. [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 4:36 pmSorry # 55, the people who need convincing don't know how to read... or refuse to believe words n black and white!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:36 pmDuh, OF COURSE 9/11 was an inside job! Now if only we had some proof on video...
The Colbert Revolution Begins!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:37 pmAnd CNN (Wolfie) went and looked it up and CONFIRMED Rumsfield had said those things!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:39 pmYay!!!!!
Exley can't get it...it doesn't matter who McG is. He asked some questions that were important and reasonable and got nothing but fakery in response. Let's imagine the impossible, that Rummy for some reason would have answered the questions with complete candor. Admitting fixing the intelligence around the policy, etc. "We just were determined to bring down Saddam" kind of thing. The Exleys and the mighty 32% would have howled that it was the liberal medias fault for tricking Rummerooni or some other such nonsense. Gradually, more and more citizens have been realizing a little about what's been up all along, but there will always be the Exleys, God love em.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:40 pmColbert got it started. Let's keep it going. These people have a lot of questions to answer; and their answers will all be impeachable offenses.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:40 pmAnd anyone focusing too much on Mr. McGovern, shouldn't forget another logical fallacy beyond the non sequitur Rumsfeld was called on -- namely attacking the messenger, not the message.
Anyone needing a refresher on ad hominem attacks:
May 4th, 2006 at 4:40 pm[...] From Think Progress via tipster HelpMeImpeachBush. Full transcript here. Video uploaded to YouTube to spare them bandwidth and for those with QuickTime problems. [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 4:41 pmHey, Exley, would you consider someone with McGovern's decades-long experience and access to classified military information a sound background for asserting his opinion? Or is that the resume of a "liberal agitator"?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:41 pmBy the way, would you consider an ally someone who disguises themselves and bombs your warships? Ever hear of the USS Liberty?
#6 Nutcase
Open your eyes. For so long I refused to believe that there was even a shred of a possibility that our government was capable of lying to us to achieve their goals. I thought all my democrat friends were just left wing moonbats. So someone challenged me to find out about the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) and Operation Northwoods, and the Aspen Institute. The more I researched the more I realized that I had been a fool.
There are things I don't agree with regarding the Democratic Platform, but more important, I will not accept or allow my elected leaders to lie to me. This administration HAS LIED to the American people. He has betrayed not only his own party, but every single person in this country.
I once thought like you. Based on what I know now I have re-registered as an independent. I've been a republican for over 40 years but I love my country more than any party. I became ashamed to call myself a republican. I fell for the lies hook, line and sinker. I believed all the rhetoric about being a patriot by supporting the President.
Please don't fall for the lies. Being patriotic means standing up for what is right regardless of what party is in power.
This administration will use nuclear weapons against Iran. It would have already happened had it not been for Hurricane Katrina which interrupted the invasion they planned.
Our democracy and way of life is at stake. Stop listening to the words and the rhetoric. Read the Bill of Rights and Constitution. Look at their actions!!!! Don't let them scare you into believing that they need to violate your rights to make you safe. These people are very dangerous, not just to America but to the entire world.
PLEASE, I implore you. Do your own personal research. Turn off the right wing propaganda radio. Read everything on the net that you can find - both the right aned the left. When you compare it for yourself, there is no other conclusion that you can come to...these bastards are out for total domination. Is that what you want?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:42 pmhttp://www.intrepidsoftware.com/fallacy/attack.php
May 4th, 2006 at 4:43 pm*sniff* hmm... *sniff*
Is that... DEMOCRACY I smell...?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:43 pm#46 & 51 - "…or, for that matter, in a George W. Bush 2004 campaign event. " - Comment by BalRog
****Dear Mr/Ms Rocket - How many dissenters did GWB have executed after an '04 campaign event?? Oh,"clever" vitriol?? Perhaps in the future you would do better to restrict your comparisons to something relevant...
#50 -"Doesn’t it hurt that your heros are liars?" - Comment by progressive and proud
May 4th, 2006 at 4:44 pm*****Dear PP - Not as much as having heroes who are rapists or drunk cowards who leave single women to die in underwater cars....
1. Zarqawi was in Iraq - FACT
2. Zarqawi was a relious extremist - FACT
3. Saddaam didn't like relious extremist, because his government was secular - FACT
4. Bush knew where he was - FACT
5. Zarqawi was in the remote parts of Northern Iraq - FACT
6. Zarqawi was beyond the no-fly zone and Saddam couldn't get to him - FACT
7. Bush could have taken out Zarqawi for over a year before the war started - FACT
8. Bush choose NOT to take out Zarqawi because it would have weakened his case for war - FACT
Saying that Zarqawi was in Iraq does not add justification for the war, it just shows how weak their justifications were!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:44 pmHenny Penny the sky is falling. Citizens are calling Dr. StrangeRumsfeld out on his inept warmongering.
Heckuva job onion nuts.
-GSD
May 4th, 2006 at 4:45 pm#72 - if you want video proof that 9/11 was an inside job, see '911 Loose Change' on Google video... an excellent documentary that contains lots of damning video.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:45 pmRumsfeld Rendered Speechless with His Own Words from 2003...
Former CIA analyst Ray McGovern confronted Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld with his own statements from 2003. The silence from Donald Rumsfeld after McGovern recited a quote from the May 4, 2003 This Week with George Stephanopolous is pure gold.
.....
May 4th, 2006 at 4:45 pm#80 Your impassioned plea does not fall on deaf ears. But sadly, the human animal is subject to a slow evolutionary trajectory---particularly when it comes to the evolution of consciousness. People like Exley have the seeds of their own (and unfortunately, our) destruction plugged into their DNA. Ignorance begets ignorance ad nauseum, and you could show them the light and they will still call it darkness. Again, I will fiddle when their Rome burns......
May 4th, 2006 at 4:46 pm#83 Strange thing for someone named Aphrodite to post...
May 4th, 2006 at 4:46 pmKeep hitting these lying murduring war criminal bastards. They played us for fools and destroyed our country and Iraq. They are LIARS. WAR CRIMINALS IMPEACH them NOW
May 4th, 2006 at 4:47 pmExley whom ever you may be you should remember the old saying about it walking and talking like a duck so therefore it must be...a duck. Well Wee wily rumsfeld talks and walks like a liar so therefore it must be the Ray McGoverns fault. Solid logic my good man/woman/it whatever or whomever you are. It is time to face reality for the 30% still believing in this insane administration we have. These clowns have not done one right thing since they stole the election in 2000 (and they did steal it to that much is fact.)
May 4th, 2006 at 4:48 pmExley if you wish to disagree with me I say good prove me wrong name one (just one) good thing these jackboot morons have done for America, just one little thing.
It was from March 30, 2003, not May 4. At least, that's what the link TP provides says.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:48 pm#31 yes they totally planted die hard supporters. you ehar everyone rip into applause when rummy sai d"i didnt lie" normal mix of common folk wouldnt applause over something like that... it was such crap.. man that guy drilled rummy. i love it!!!
#2 excellent point!!!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:49 pm#83 your hero ronald reagan supported saddam after saddam executed all his political opponents. remember that?
May 4th, 2006 at 4:49 pm#58
May 4th, 2006 at 4:50 pmFunny all I heard was a bunch of sycophants cheering pathetically when the person they were sucking up to was confronted by his own lies.
That's what the right does...attack the messenger when the messenger bears the truth. The right can't handle the truth because it means they have to come out of their massive denial and admit they were wrong. Being wrong is something their ego's cannot handle. So, as the far right does, when someone asks a legitimate question, they are referred to as a "nutcase." Well, if that is indeed the case, then the majority of Americans are nutcases because the majority of Americans know we were lied into this war and we are being lied into another one that will be catastrophic.
In the future, people will look back and be ashamed that they remained silent when they could have or should have spoken out while others will be ashamed that they were nothing more than sheep. I applaud those critical, independent thinkers that have the courage to speak truth to power. God Bless You!
Pro-American = Anti-Bush!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:50 pmSee Exley, #58, you're starting to get it! Your comment is a great example of a non sequitur!
Who knows, if you keep up this whole critical thinking spurt, next thing you'll be saying is that there was no connection between Iraq and 9/11. Shoot for the stars, Exley!
;-)
May 4th, 2006 at 4:50 pmHilarious!!!!!! Someone actually thinks that Mary Jane Kopechne was "left to drown" by her drunken cohort and wasn't murdered first (for knowing too much about Kennedy/Mafia connections--which are the same connections as CIA/Republican/Mafia connections), then placed in the car to make it look like a tragic "accident".
May 4th, 2006 at 4:51 pmJanuary 26, 1998
"We believe the U.S. has the authority under existing UN resolutions to take the necessary steps, including military steps (to attach Iraq and remove Saddam Hussein)."
Parentheses mine.
PNAC Letter to Clinton, signed by Donald Rumsfeld and many other major players in the lead up to the Iraq war.
http://www.newamericancentury.org/iraqclintonletter.htm
Did Rumsfeld lie? Of course he did.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:51 pmTexmex-
If you noticed, on Blitzer's The Situation Room, Blitzer had on J.C. Watts and Paul Begala, an alleged liberal, who noted that while some on the left have called for Bush's impeachment, he reminded viewers that "he [Bush] has a four year, no-cut contract, and should not be fired". Apparently, the word accountability is not part of Begala's vocabulary. True liberals may see little difference between Begala and conservatives.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:53 pmRumsfeld is a horrible criminal liar who must resign or be charged for crimes against humanity! He looks very upset in the pic on this TP thread and he should be! I live near Atlanta, in Georgia, and we dislike the entire Bush Regime membership! They are all war criminals!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 4:54 pm#58 You see what you want to, we here are going for reality. Too bad there isn't a nice pill for you to take to be able to understand this concept.
Rumsfeld stood there frozen with no answer. Did you hear the stumbling, the ah ah ahs, the lack of words? He failed miserably in Iraq and is responsibible for my friend's death. You prop up foolish cowards and liars.
Can you deny he lied? When he stated that he did not ever say he knew where WMDs were in Tikrit when there is proof he did, he lied.
Lied I tells ya.
May 4th, 2006 at 4:57 pmMore from good ole' Ray:
I have initials for why I think we went to war in Iraq," McGovern said. "O.I.L. O-I-L, O is for oil, I is for Israel and L is for logistics, as in when we have Iraq we have a foothold and a number of bases strategically placed in the Middle East so we can be in control over there and also to protect Israel."
Yes, Ray...It was all the Israelis' doing! HEH! Ray says "O.I.L"...Well, he is a "K.O.O.K."
May 4th, 2006 at 4:59 pmHenry Kissinger once said, "Of all the despots I've had to deal with, none was more ruthless than Donald Rumsfeld."
May 4th, 2006 at 5:01 pmRay McGovern is a good man who worked for the CIA for 27 years, so he knows what he is talking about! Rummy knows McGovern so he should not have been rattled by his question, but was caught red-handed in lying, so kudos to Ray! Bush loving trolls on here should be ashamed to call him names for proving Rumsfeld a bald faced liar!
May 4th, 2006 at 5:02 pmDear dis-HONEST abe - Your comparisons are poor-at-best. I think the best an expelled dissenter could expect from the totalitarians I listed was "re-education/proaganda camp", torture, and/or death. Your alias is telling - but not truthful....
Dear hippie - Put down the bong - - your ability to retain info gets worse and worse every day... Of course, you forgot the old saying, "the enemy of my enemy is my friend"...
May 4th, 2006 at 5:02 pmPolitical language. . . is designed to make lies sound truthful;
and murder respectable;
and to give an appearance of solidity to pure wind:
George Orwell
May 4th, 2006 at 5:03 pm#105 What does that have to do with Rumsfeld's lies?
Does that prove Rumsfeld never said he knew where the WMDs were?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:03 pmIf the criteria for Zarqawi being "linked" to Saddam is simply being in Iraq then I have some great photos of Rummy in Iraq shaking hands with dictator. Based on transitory properties I guess Rummy is part of AlQueda.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:05 pm#80 - Well said, once_a_republican. I hope you continue to commenter here.
This is a quote for those you are appealing to:
Faced with the choice between changing one's mind and proving that there is no need to do so, almost everyone gets busy on the proof.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:05 pm-John Kenneth Galbraith
#108 You mean I got it wrong... Reagan did not support Saddam? Didn't sell him weapons? Rumsfeld never shook his hand? Ok. We'll disagree there.
I remember that old saying you mention. I also remember it is the #1 source of blowback. Al Qaeda was the enemy of my enemy in the 1980s. Reagan supported them too.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:06 pmThey not only lied to us about the WMD but also to the troops. I wonder how many died because they were wearing those rubber suits.
Deliberately giving false intelligence to the troops in time of war is close to, if not actually, treason. The question should be put to a jury.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:07 pmmighty aphrodite is simply too uneducated, too poorly informed, and has little relevant life experience to be able to post on this forum with any sense of authority. People like that, with little to bring to the table, are better off ignored.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:07 pmJust for fun:
1. Mohamed Atta was in America - FACT
May 4th, 2006 at 5:08 pm2. Mohamed Atta was a religious extremist - FACT
3. Bush did likes religious extremist, because he is an religious extremist and is against his secular government - FACT
4. Bush knew where Mohamed Atta was (FBI)- FACT
5. Mohamed Atta was in the metro parts of America - FACT
6. Mohamed Attai was taking-flying lessons and Bush would not get to him - FACT
7. Bush could have taken out Mohamed Atta for over a year before the 9/11 - FACT
8. Bush choose NOT to take out Mohamed Atta because it would have weakened his case for Missile defense- FACT
Rumsfeld looked like a dottering old man. HE was caught in a lie and he did not even have the humility to admit it, he just kept lying.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:09 pmZoopooper - Have'nt they buried that old socialist Galbraith yet???
May 4th, 2006 at 5:09 pm"The enemy of my enemy is my friend" makes for a stupid foreign policy. Once your common enemy is vanquished, your new "friend" will just go back to being your enemy again. It is very lacking in the long-term thinking department. Dialogue and education will do more good any day than simply trying to kill them. Why do conservatives want the world to go on killing each other? When will you make it stop?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:09 pmLies, damned lies, and Rumsfeld.
It is unbelievable and pathetic that the Secretary of Defense can, indeed in a non sequitur, say that American troops wore chemical weapons suits because they believed there were chemical weapons going to be used against them.
The troops did not make any decisions. They were ORDERED to do whatever they did, and the orders came from above, and ultimately Rumsfeld.
Why oh why can't reporters asks questions as pointed as those asked in this clip?
And Rumsfeld is lying about the CIA, since the CIA was badgered into giving him the information he wanted, packaged the way he wanted it. Has everyone forgotten his unprecedented series of visits to Langley?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:10 pm#80 WTG! The truth is out there! It just can't be found listening to Rush or Sean, watching Fox, or checking out the RNC site~
May 4th, 2006 at 5:10 pmAphrodite, I think that the difference is that we know that the few political figures whom we look up to are human, who have made mistakes, sometimes really big ones. I don't think that most of the liberals/progressives here have political "heroes." The die-hard righties seem to believe that every word out of the mouths of Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice is gospel and blessed by a higher authority.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:11 pmFlighty Aphid: The right of Americans to question those in authority was won long before Rumsfeld press conference today. I believe that would be somewhere around the late 18th century, could it be 1776. Never compare the rights of Americans with those in Russia, China or anyother country you wish to use in your comments. If ignorance is bliss, 'Tis folly to be wise".
May 4th, 2006 at 5:11 pm#119...So, The United States and FDR were wrong to ally themselves with the USSR in World War II to stop Hitler????
May 4th, 2006 at 5:11 pmThis has made my day:) #108 you need to take a refresher course on the 1980's when America was in love with Saddam Hussein ..Lots of bioweapons and chemweapons were sold to him.Lots of planes,guns,bombs...there's a pic of rummy smiling and shaking hands with Saddam.
I love reading that transcript ..hahahahaha Busted rummy!
May 4th, 2006 at 5:11 pmWayne, Republicans' energy policy, fiscal policy, and choice of allies show very little regard for long term thinking. Long term thinking is too "elitist" for them.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:12 pmThe lies are wearing thinner with every passing day. The country was hoodwinked into this conflict of choice. Zarqawi was a suspect in the Kurdish part of Iraq which Saddam had no control over. This is one bit of "intelligence" that was actually acurate but nothing was done to take him out. He was not a memeber of al Qeada before the start of the war. Check out the transcript regarding is comment about knowing exactly where WMD were located. It sure played well for the American public and they ate it up. Keep up the questioning of our leadership...some reasonable people may begin to listen.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:13 pmThanks #99 for making it plain that the spelling is '-ur' for the Latin expression. Now if we could just absorb the meaning of the phrase, as a nation carpet-bombed with them by Bush apaologists. The high school and Philosophy 101 lessons concernign the forms and use of propaganda seem to have either bouced off the obdurate American brain-pan or been take as permission to use them in every argument so as to waste more time and confuse more people--the better to score a win for the true dynastic family of our century, the Bushes. ( i hope you will recall that two of the other supposed 'dynasty'--never realized, incidentally--were murdered by 'lone gunmen'. Sure. And no one here helped Osama. Right.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:13 pm[...] Via Think Progress [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 5:17 pmhttp://cnparm.home.texas.net/911/Backg/Rumsfeld-Saddam.jpg
May 4th, 2006 at 5:17 pm#108 Your bad grammar is really annoying. What year are you in? Bongs? Dude, you are in the wrong decade and it shows.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:17 pmYou, sir, are a true patriot. Thank you!
May 4th, 2006 at 5:19 pm#100 Sober up buddy. And please don't drive, if you have a license.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:19 pm#118 - Any day now, your point Mighty Hag of the Idiots?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:19 pmActually, #125, that is incorrect. The US did not provide Iraq with weaponry in the 1980s and in fact criticized Iraq's use of chemical weapons against Iran. You are citing myth, not history:
"Rumsfeld affirmed the Reagan administration's "willingness to do more" regarding the Iran-Iraq war, but "made clear that our efforts to assist were inhibited by certain things that made it difficult for us, citing the use of chemical weapons, possible escalation in the Gulf, and human rights." Rumsfeld returned to Baghdad in late March 1984. By this time, the U.S. had publicly condemned Iraq's chemical weapons use, stating, "The United States has concluded that the available evidence substantiates Iran's charges that Iraq used chemical weapons" [Document 47]. Briefings for Rumsfeld's meetings noted that atmospherics in Iraq had deteriorated since his December visit because of Iraqi military reverses and because "bilateral relations were sharply set back by our March 5 condemnation of Iraq for CW use, despite our repeated warnings that this issue would emerge sooner or later"
May 4th, 2006 at 5:19 pm#135 - Back that up with a link, please.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:23 pm# 80 Once a Republican is right on the money! Not only Republicans should consider what he is saying but every american should do the same. We should do what he
May 4th, 2006 at 5:25 pmsay's, or we are doomed and our republic will be history!
My pleasure. It is from George Washington University's National Security Archive:
http://www.gwu.edu/~nsarchiv/NSAEBB/NSAEBB82/
May 4th, 2006 at 5:27 pmExley, You so cwazy!
U.S.-Iraqi arms transfers in the Iran-Iraq war
May 4th, 2006 at 5:29 pmIt truly scares me, to this day, that we live under an administration that would benefit from a terrorist attack.
I think he's going to claim the quote was 'out of context' or something.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:30 pmExley if I remember correctly, while Washington had condemded the use of chemical weapons, they were privately supporting Saddam Hussien and Iraq. This support included money, chemicals, and I believe helicopters. It wasn't until it was apparent that Saddam might succeed in Iran, that Reagan authorized the sale of arms to Iran to keep the balance in the middle east.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:31 pm#135
Actually, you are misinformed. Unlike you, I'll provide a few links to back up what I say:
U.S. Had Key Role in Iraq Buildup
Trade in Chemical Arms Allowed Despite Their Use on Iranians, Kurds
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A52241-2002Dec29?language=printer
How did Iraq get its weapons? We sold them
http://www.sundayherald.com/27572
Arming Iraq: A Chronology of U.S. Involvement
http://www.iranchamber.com/history/articles/arming_iraq.php
COVER STORY: How he US armed Saddam Hussein with chemical weapons
http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2002/506/506p12.htm
UNDERSTANDING THE U.S.-IRAQ CRISIS:
The History of U.S.-Iraq Relations
http://www.ips-dc.org/iraq/primer4.htm
Gee that was hard. Took three minutes to research online in google. Are you done trying to distract fron the issue of Rumsfeld's pre lies about WMD or do you need to prove your ignorance again?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:33 pmWell defended Rumsfield!
All the whiny, miserable lefty commentors here are dumbasses.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:33 pmAphrodite at 83, it says a great deal to me that you have to dig up totalitarian dictatorships to find worse examples of freedom of speech than those practiced by the Bush administration. The use of "Free Speech Zones" and the arresting of demonstrators at public events is almost unprecedented in American history. Is the fact that this administration has not had it's critics put to death REALLY the baseline for freedom? How far do we have to fall before you stop saying "Really, this isn't so bad"?
It might surprise you that the United States is not the only nation in the world where dissent and freedom from torture and murder are the norm. We aren't even as "free" as many of these nations anymore, thanks to the Bush administration's punitive efforts of stifling dissent through arrests and dropped charges.
Bettter to Judge America by the standards and ideals we hold, than by the worst of the worst.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:33 pmthis is DR's typical MO--he'll definitively and decisively say, "i never said thus and such!" usually, this tactic works, especially when no one has the record handy and he sounds so adamant. but OCCASIONALLY, he'll get tripped up, like he did here, and a couple years ago on one of the talking heads shows on sunday morning when he denied using the phrase "imminent threat." what a little turd of a man...
May 4th, 2006 at 5:33 pmMA
I've had to read WAY too many of your zero content posts. You bring absolutely nothing to the table. Why are you here? ( besides the obvious eye poking )
You are such a blind troll - Please admit it to us all, that there isnt ANYTHING BushCo has done, or can do, that you wouldnt approve of.
Wake Up Man. Think about it
May 4th, 2006 at 5:34 pmWere they holding his arms and pulling him out when Ray McGovern said, "This is America!"? We're already involved in hostile actions in Iran. Will we stop Rummy in time?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:35 pmThe questioner was that nutcase, Ray McGovern. You know, the guy who says the next terror attack on America would be done by Bush and the US government.
Comment by Red and Karly Pyoub
Maybe he helped develop Operation Northwoods when he was at CIA.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:35 pm#119 - "Dialogue and education will do more good any day than simply trying to kill them. Why do conservatives want the world to go on killing each other? When will you make it stop? - Comment by Wayne A. Schneider
May 4th, 2006 at 5:37 pm****I don't disagree with your point. But to have a dialogue takes a minimum of two parties to discuss, compromise, etc. I have not seen the extreme wing of the Islamofascists willing to jump into the arena of "dialogue". Conservatives do not want the "world to go on killing each other" - "we will make it stop" when Islamofascists understand the rights of other religions to exist - or the right of atheists and agnostics to believe in no Higher Power or Allah, if they so choose.
#141 -- I believe you are essentially right. I am not expert enough on the details to say definitively one way or the other. There is no doubt that the Reagan administration was playing Iraq and Iran against eachother in the 1980s in order to avoid either one of them establishing dominance in the region. After learning about the advanced state of Iraq's nuclear weapons and other WMD programs following the first Gulf War and seeing today Iran's growing nuclear capability, it seems obvious that Reagan was correct in his policies and that it would have been disastrous to allow either of those unsavory regimes to become the dominat powers in the Gulf region.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:38 pm#143
That's the best you got, huh?
Sorry, I don't like my country being suckered into an unnecessary war based on lies. Maybe that makes me whiny in your eyes. In mine it makes me a patriot and you a blind follower. Funny how perspectives can be different, isn't it?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:39 pm[...] So, Rummy, again: why did you lie about WMDs? [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 5:40 pmThe chemical suits didn't work anyway.
around the end of 2005 or first part of 2003, there was a hearing in some committee, covered by c-span. anyone who watched could come to the conclusion that not only didn't the suits work, there wasn't enough of them.
Either bush sent our troops into battle with suits that didn'ts work or he knew there wouldn't be a need for them
would someone research this please
May 4th, 2006 at 5:42 pmMighty Aphro, to continue with your counterproductive line of reason: like idolizing the first lady who ran over her teenage boyfriend or a drunk VP who shot an old man? Accusations go round and round and there are soooo many "guilty" parties, but the bottom line HERE is that McGovern put Rumsfeld on the hot seat and Rummy was stunningly transparent in perpetuating the dishonesty this administration will go down in history for. How could you not see that?
Sadly, you and your friend Exley just don't seem to see reason or the truth because of your blind loyalty. Sad. Who's calling who a "nutcase"?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:42 pmWhat a crock. The troops wore chemical protective gear cause THEY WERE ORDERED TOO!
May 4th, 2006 at 5:42 pmI'm sure all of them would have loved to take it off. March was chosen for the attack so the troops all wouldn't die of heat exhaustion in the suits. If they'd truly thought Saddam Hussein had weapons of mass destruction...believe me they wouldn't have prepared with that paltry no. of troops. They'd have to be prepared to lose a 1/3 in a massive chemical attack. Where were the replacements. Fire the Liars. ...and all of you kool-aid drinkers need to start putting 2+2 together and come up with some of your own ideas.
Yet another case of a liberal loon crying about past history and semantics to try and defeat the United States during war time.
Shame on you all. You cry about dying soldiers yet help kill them by undermining them at any chance.
You nutroots would have us leave Iraq like we left Vietnam so that a civil war and genocide can break out, lcreating a repeat of the millions who died in Cambodia and Southeast Asia because of you anti-American traitors.
Thanks God we have Rumsfeld, Bush and Condi running things, telling the CIA and the State Department to reform or die.
Get over it..Bush is President for years yet and you control nothing. You are like a bunch of little dog yapping at the feet of MEN. Time to kick you out of the way.
Cepan
May 4th, 2006 at 5:44 pm#144 - Left Wing fox - Who said - "If you don't remember history - you're doomed to repeat it." Of course you can't stand to have totalitarians brought to the table as an example of the extreme left-wing - with the exception of ONE tyrant mentioned, ALL were supported by the extremes of the American Left.
#146 - Mark - I have disagreed with this President on his failure to rein in domestic spending, the approval of too many pork-laden bills and his failure to secure the borders. Hand the bong back to hippie.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:44 pm#150 - So, you like kool-aid. What flavor?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:45 pm#149 Does that mean you're willing to stop executing criminals in this country, too? I'm talking about living human beings who have already been born, so don't sidetrack the issue. WIll you stop capital punishment? Or do you still believe that some people deserve to die?
And when have we even tried talking to them?
May 4th, 2006 at 5:46 pmRay McGovern -- a true American hero.
Rummy -- a delusional, psychopathic congenital liar.
It's about time.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:47 pm#150
Perhaps allowing one to get to powerful would have been a mistake, however the pre-emptive war on Iraq has accelerated Iran's nuclear amibition, and removed the check on Iran. Frankly the US military is overextended, and Iran knows this. Short of nuclear strikes on hard targets, or boots on the ground, we cannot gaurantee cooperation from the Iranian government. Nor do the Iranians have any reason to be cooperative. The other side of that coin, is a there is a decent chance that newly established Iraq democracy maybe very friendly to Iran. Potentiallly we could have created a very large and aggressive block in the middle east.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:48 pm#155 read Generation Kill. They were glad to take those suits off, and were surprisingly nan-chalant about them.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:48 pm[...] (via Think Progress). [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 5:49 pmJolly good Colberting that was. Yep, Colbert is now a verb. Rummy may have toresign because he was so thoroughly Colberted.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:49 pmAH, #135 ---Or should I call you "The Dude?" I am glad you admitted that your knowledge in this area is limited to a "Google" search that lasted two minutes. It is clear that you have not read the stories to which you linked. If you had read beyond the headlines, you would have learned that in the 1980s Iraq was sold dual-purpose materials, meaning they could be put to civilian or military use. They were not pure weapons. Given the fact that the West was not fully aware of the extent of Iraq's WMD prgrams until after the 1991 Gulf War, it is understandable that the U.S. believed that these dual use materials would be used for civilian economic purposes. You know who agreed with that policy at the time? Your hero Joe Wilson, who is quuted in the 2002 Post article you sent; ""Everybody was wrong in their assessment of Saddam," said Joe Wilson, Glaspie's former deputy at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad, and the last U.S. official to meet with Hussein. "Everybody in the Arab world told us that the best way to deal with Saddam was to develop a set of economic and commercial relationships that would have the effect of moderating his behavior. History will demonstrate that this was a miscalculation."
Maybe, "Dude" you should have read the articles before you sent them out. They undermine your argument.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:51 pmHe is also lying when he says 'I'm not in the intelligence business.' The bulk of the intelligence budget for the US goes to the Pentagon--and this was why Rumdsfeld was opposed to the creation of a National Intelligence Director that would take away some of his authority and budget.
Plus, the Office of Special Plans was a (pseudo) intelligence agency being run out of the basement of the Pentagon by Douglas Feight, Wolfowitz and Company, and provided much of the intelligence used by the Def Sec and the Whitehouse to justify going to war.
These guys are lying despots, pure and simple. For a rock-and-roll public service announcement on just this theme, please visit:
http://www.unclassifiedmedia.blogspot.com
May 4th, 2006 at 5:51 pm#150 Reagan was clearly not correct. You give him too much credit, making it sound like he predicted the future. At the time, Reagan called the mujihaden the moral equivalent of our founding fathers, despite the fact they were clearly committing evil acts. Reagan defended many evil tyrants under the philosophy MA cites. That we were eventually able to undo the damage does not absolve him of guilt.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:53 pmHilarious - Borrowing a tired line from an old "friend" here, correct me if I'm wrong, but I don't recall Laura Welch leaving the scene of the crime and NOT reporting the traffic accident to the authorities....But watching the "Morons of Massachusetts" return the fat, old, drunken lecher to the Senate is the gift that keeps on giving. Anytime that filth tries to pontificate on morality, up pops a dead blonde....When Ted the Swimmer is no longer creating a stench in the halls of the Senate, Mary Jo Kopechne will be able to RIP.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:53 pmExley & MA,
I sure hope you guys are getting paid for your time trolling here. You can't possibly believe the dumb crap you're saying. Can you? I mean, if you guys were true believers, forced to watch your heroes crumble in front of you, having to endure the embarassment of seeing their weak, pathetic lies exposed, it's got to be painful. And, to watch the number of people dumb enough to still believe Bush, Cheney, and Rumsfeld dwindling now into the low 30s and still dropping. How long can you hang on before you start to get physically sick from it?
Just wonderin'.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:53 pmI first discovered Mr. McGovern when he helped to shed light on the run-up to the war in Iraq in the must-see documentary "Hijacking Catastrophe." More on that here:
http://www.hijackingcatastrophe.org/
For those who may not be familiar with him, McGovern had a distinguished 27-year career as a CIA analyst and is a co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity. He has written numerous insightful articles that can be found online with a simple search.
THANKS for all you do, Mr. McGovern.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:54 pmOpen your eyes. For so long I refused to believe that there was even a shred of a possibility that our government was capable of lying to us to achieve their goals. I thought all my democrat friends were just left wing moonbats. So someone challenged me to find out about the Project for a New American Century (PNAC) and Operation Northwoods, and the Aspen Institute. The more I researched the more I realized that I had been a fool.
There are things I don’t agree with regarding the Democratic Platform, but more important, I will not accept or allow my elected leaders to lie to me. This administration HAS LIED to the American people. He has betrayed not only his own party, but every single person in this country.
I once thought like you. Based on what I know now I have re-registered as an independent. I’ve been a republican for over 40 years but I love my country more than any party. I became ashamed to call myself a republican. I fell for the lies hook, line and sinker. I believed all the rhetoric about being a patriot by supporting the President.
Please don’t fall for the lies. Being patriotic means standing up for what is right regardless of what party is in power.
This administration will use nuclear weapons against Iran. It would have already happened had it not been for Hurricane Katrina which interrupted the invasion they planned.
Our democracy and way of life is at stake. Stop listening to the words and the rhetoric. Read the Bill of Rights and Constitution. Look at their actions!!!! Don’t let them scare you into believing that they need to violate your rights to make you safe. These people are very dangerous, not just to America but to the entire world.
PLEASE, I implore you. Do your own personal research. Turn off the right wing propaganda radio. Read everything on the net that you can find - both the right aned the left. When you compare it for yourself, there is no other conclusion that you can come to…these bastards are out for total domination. Is that what you want?
Comment by once_a_republican
Like you I was fooled. On 911 when I saw that 2nd tower get hit I jumped to my feet and yelled "WAR!" and my wife and kids started to cry.... I was totally buying everything. I started to have doubts as I researched 911... but I couldnt believe that stuff.. they had a point but I couldnt believe it... then people like Phil Donahue on MSNBC started questioning things.. and I really got doubts.. .but then came Powell .. I trusted Powell ... I thought well maybe Saddam does have nukes.... that one day with Powell at the UN won me back over.... because of that I will NEVER forgive Powell. He tricked me... Bush couldnt do that... I didnt trust him anyway... but Powell....
May 4th, 2006 at 5:56 pm“we will make it stop†when Islamofascists understand the rights of other religions to exist - or the right of atheists and agnostics to believe in no Higher Power or Allah, if they so choose.
And if they so choose, conservatives will be there to pillory their lack of faith in the public sphere, and pass laws declaring them un-American.
News flash: Saudi Arabia is Bush's friend. Conservtives care not one bit about real religious freedom. They want more religion in government, not less.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:57 pm#165
Sorry you are wrong. Read the articles. Yup... "dual purpose" - nod nod wink wink, which they used to develop their weapons programs.
So, either the Reagan admin were too stupid to realize they would be used to develop their weapons programs, or it was done intentionally. Which was it Exley? Were they idiots, or did the funal bio tech weapons under the shield of "dual purpose"? Either way, we supplied them with their chemical weapons seed banks.
Maybe you should go back and read the articles. Try not to selectively quote things that only support your argument out of context.
But thanks for proving my point- we provided them with chemical weapons.
May 4th, 2006 at 5:58 pmHey guys? What are we going to do about Rummy's plans for Iran? Do you all think that the Prez will ask Congress for an authorization of force? With Cheney's new expanded interpretation of his powers, he believes he doesn't have to ask. I'm asking because I can't get an answer from my (Democratic) senator.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:01 pm#173..The Dude conspicuously (but not surprisingly) ignores the fact that liberal hero Joe Wilson said in 2002 that “â€Everybody was wrong in their assessment of Saddam,†said Joe Wilson, Glaspie’s former deputy at the U.S. embassy in Baghdad, and the last U.S. official to meet with Hussein. “Everybody in the Arab world told us that the best way to deal with Saddam was to develop a set of economic and commercial relationships that would have the effect of moderating his behavior. History will demonstrate that this was a miscalculation.â€
So, to answer your questions, "Dude," I'd say look to Joe Wilson's words.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:02 pmMighty Aphrodite is simply too uneducated, too poorly informed, and has too little relevant life experience to be able to post on this forum with any sense of authority. People like that, with little to bring to the table, are better off ignored.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:03 pmExley, too bad Joe Wilson doesn't agree with you. Or do you know what he thinks better than he does?
May 4th, 2006 at 6:03 pm#159 - Wayne - Your pre-conceived assumption about conservatives doesn't apply - I am NOT a supporter of the death penalty. My reasons:
1.) the death penalty is not meted out evenly - wealthy clients with greater resources can hire more experienced "death qualified" attorneys.
2.) margin of error.
3.) I actually believe LWOP is more of a punishment.
I believe we were talking to the Palestinians when that puke Arafat was robbing us blind. We've been conversing with Jordan, Turkey, Egypt, and pakistan for decades. Don't forget our conversation with the mujuhadeen when Russia was ousted from Afghanistan and before the wackos of the Taliban took over.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:05 pmExley, Joe Wilson's quote you cite has nothing to do with Rummy lying about WMD. Come back when you can quote Joe saying the yellowcake/aluminum tubes story was for real.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:05 pm#178...Actually, Joe Wilson does agree with me regarding U.S. policy towards Iraq in the 1980s. Read his quote again.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:06 pmI like the KJ's name for Rummy, Dumbsfailed....priceless!
May 4th, 2006 at 6:06 pmTo Cepan, you psychopath:
There you go with the old, worn-out, unfounded claims of being unpatriotic- yada yada yada....
The only people defeating the United States are these unelected, indictable criminals and people of the likes of you who, thank goodness, are dwindling in numbers.
Please explain the mechanics of how we are "killing soldiers" by debating the corruption of your president and his cabal. I'm anxious to here your reasoning. Try linking that reasoning to Vietnam you moron. That was another illegal war that was doomed to failure thanks to bad leadership. Iraq will go the same way.
Anyone who, at this point, "thanks God" for Bush, Condi, and Dumbsfailed needs a psychiatric evaluation. Your "heroes" are cold, calculating killers, who have no business running this Country.
So the next time you think you're going to "kick us out of the way", maybe you better realize that you are in a vast MINORITY and the shoe might just be on the other foot, you neo-con, Constitution hating, America destroyer.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:07 pmThea,
the president has limited authority to start military conflict. After 180 days I think the President is then obligated to seek funding from congress. What the president can't do is a formal declaration of war. Not that it matters since we haven't not formally declared war on another country since WWII. I could be wrong, but Korea, Vietnam, Gulf War I, Afghanistan, and Gulf War II are not technically wars.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:07 pm#179 The mujihadeen WERE the wackos of the Taliban. Don't pretend they magically transformed into completely different people when the Soviet's left. That's what happens when you (or Reagan) set up a multi-billion dollar black market for terrorist weapons using the Saudis and Pakistani ISI as go-betweens. It was STUPID. Period. And any contrary opinion was met with the old "hand-wringing liberals" routine.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:08 pmHey Exley how much is the RNC paying for propaganda blogging nowadays? Being that there's a shortage of new jobs in this country I think I might apply. This whole illegal administration should be impeached. From the incompetent liar in the White House right on down to Scottie McMoon face the lying evading ex-press secretary.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:08 pm- I think that women who accused that George Bush of rape was senile.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:08 pm- George Bush is no longer a drunken Cokehead (remember he found God).
- You're wrong. Not only did he leave that single women to drown but George Bush let an entire American city drown.
You seem confused C E-H...The Joe Wilson quote is being cited in relation to discussion of whether the U.S. provided Iraq with chemical and bio-weapons in the 1980s. As we see from the GWU National Security Archive, which consists of primary documents, and the articles "The Dude" so kindly cited, the fact is that the U.S. did NOT send such weapons to Iraq in the 1980s and indeed publicy condemned Iraq's use of CW at that time.
I hope this clears up your confusion. You're welcome.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:10 pmsorry used a double negative in post #185 should say have not.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:10 pmOk Exley, next time you see Joe ask him if arming Saddam in the 80s was a smart thing to do. That quote says nothing of the kind.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:10 pm#135
wow...i didn't realize that there were people, at least one, that believe:
The US did not provide Iraq with weaponry in the 1980s and in fact criticized Iraq’s use of chemical weapons against Iran. You are citing myth, not history:
it is amazing how neoconservatives and their ilk can simply re-write history and state it with such self-assuredness... within about thirty seconds, i found a link to iranchamber.com that has a cited list that includes:
May 4th, 2006 at 6:11 pm
Rummy, I mean Dumbsfailed, has got to be thinking of retirement now.
He'll be saying "uncle" in no time. He's a sissy, sissy's have no balls.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:14 pm#172 - Hippie - For your own good - Turn off the secular propaganda. The Left's intolerance is intolerable. I've had lefty "veterans" swear they didn't defend "my rights" - funny, I defended theirs...
Conservatives could care less if you practice religion or believe in God - but quit being so offended if we do. Many conservatives support our ally Israel - I think it has to do with the lack of resolve by FDR until it was too late. As for the Saudis they are no friends of Bush and the US - we just need their oil for the time being - OIL IS A VITAL INTERST - but hopefully not for long!!! (You will recall the niceties expressed by members of Congress when referring to an opposition member, "My good friend from Paducah...." Most people recognize the truth if not the tone.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:17 pm#179 Well, I believe that you and I have found one more thing we agree on: Opposition to the use of capital punishment. Our reasons for it differ, but at least we agree that it shouldn't be used. Forgive me if I over-generalized about you and lumped you in with the pro-death people who gleefully support it. ("You know those three guys that murdered James Byrd? Well, they're gonna get the death penalty!", followed by a big grin.)
I oppose it because killing people who are no longer a direct threat to you or your loved ones is wrong. Would I use deadly force to defend Jane or myself? If there was no other way to stop the danger, then I would be willing to do it. But if I could knock the guy out and let the police take care of him, then that would be my preference.
The death penalty does not deter people from killing. States that have and use capital punishment tend to have higher murder rates than states that do not. Texas has been executing people for years, and yet people still kill one another there. Once you have the guy safely locked up where he can't hurt anyone, and you follow proper security procedures, then there is no need to kill him. It's not punishment at that point, it's revenge.
But I will agree that life without parole (unless he can prove his innocence) is more of a punishment than ending his miserable suffering behind bars.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:17 pmShaken out of their warm protecting cocoons these little rightwing worms would curl up like a turd on hot pavement under some real questioning by concerned citizens like McGovern.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:17 pm#191...C E-H, alas you STILL seem confused and have yet to read Joe Wilson's quote. If you read it, you will see that in hindsight "Joe" (Are we on a first name basis now?) does say the policy of establishing economic ties to Iraq (Again, read the NSA documents and "The Dude's" links -- The U.S. did not "arm" Iraq in the 1980s) was a miscalculation and a mistake, which he helped implement.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:17 pmchimpeachment now!
May 4th, 2006 at 6:18 pmyou know, i am simply amazed that anyone with fingers would type and the sense to form a sentence would come here and just completely mis-state history...that sort of intellectually dishonesty is reprehensible and ought to be beneath contempt for anyone who comes here for a somewhat rational discussion of things.
if there are people that are dense enough to make such an insance claim, especially one without ANY support, or any reasonable commentator supporting his or her claim, is something that is best put on one of those extremist websites where the ann coulter panty-sniffers discuss world events...you know the 6000 year old world where nothing existed before the seven days...
these people astound me with their ignorance and their willingness to share it with the rest of us.
wow!
peace.
fcuk bush
May 4th, 2006 at 6:18 pmLike I.F. Stone said to students asking for his advise.......Remember two words...Governments LIE.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:19 pmRay McGovern is a former intelligence agent, and an AMERICAN PATRIOT.
The "mighty" aphrodite supports LIARS and TRAITORS like Bush, Rummy, Cheney, DeLay, etc.
McGovern is a TRUE PATRIOT.
aphrodite is a supporter of TREASONOUS unamericans.
I'll choose McGovern and the United States of America Over TRAITORS like Bush, Cheney, Rummy and aphrodite.
Thank you...
God BLess America and the WORLD!
May 4th, 2006 at 6:23 pmTo Independant--You Loon:
Touched a nerve did I?
See the lates Foxnews Poll?
Bush UP 5 points...even among DEMOCRATS.
Try this on for size!
The MatWorld View-- Politics As It Should Be
The NSA And President Jack Bauer Are Heroes. The Democrats Are Whining Ancient Buffoons.
I had a tough time last week deciding what was more fun--the Alito Supreme Court hearings and watching the liberals shoot blanks while making fools of themselves, or the season Premiere of “24â€
I love the TV show “24â€. The hero of the show, Jack Bauer, is a no-nonsense protector of American security. He shoots terrorists at will, tortures those who deserve it and works day and night to protect the United States from fanatics of all stripes.
That must be why Democrats and the liberal media hate the show.
I saw a left wing blog where they were saying Bush thinks he is Jack Bauer, as if that is an insult.
What the liberals fail to see is that the American people WANT a Jack Bauer as President. They want Bush to protect us anyway he has to, including monitoring conversations from overseas by Al Qaeda.
The Democrat party dusted off Al Gore last week for a rambling and utterly insane speech about how Bush is breaking the law daily by using the National Security Agency to “wiretap†American citizens.
This is yet another example of the whacko left wing of the Democrat party telling lies and misinformation about what is going on.
There are NO wiretaps because the information we are getting is being pulled out of the air from cell phones and Blackberries.
My wife and I used to listen in on conversations at Nascar races with a police scanner. Not only did we listen to the teams talking to drivers, but at night in the campsite we were listening to the drunks calling home on cell phones explaining to their wives why they are still at the track.
See, until the mid 1990’s you could hear ALL cell phone conversations, as well as home cordless ones, over a scanner. Anyone with an older scanner can still do this.
The FISA (Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act) law that is all over the news was written in the 1970’s when people still used landline phones, or if you were an environmentalist, two tin cans and a wire.
The FISA law is outdated and ineffective with today’s technology and the President is doing the right thing by using 21st century technology to defend the country.
When the New York Times illegally printed the story about this top-secret method of protecting the country, the media and the Democrats overreached yet again. They screamed bloody murder and even got that pillar of RHINOISM, (Republican In Name Only), Arlen Specter to go along.
But something happened on the way to the Impeachment party.
The American people told the Democrats they LOVE the NSA way of doing things.
Poll after poll shows this and now the Dems are running for cover by saying.
“If only the President would ask us we would give him the power.â€
Yeah right.
They say this on the very day that nutcase Rep. John Conyers holds hearings in the basement of the House trying to impeach President Bush.
(Note to Rep. Conyers: I was talking Clinton Impeachment within a few weeks of his election and sold bumper stickers encouraging that before his inauguration.
You are late to the game and misguided. You picked the wrong President to go after. We already took care of that while you were defending him).
Now we have the Senate Liberals praising themselves for blocking the Patriot Act, they want to impeach Bush for protecting us, and they spent three days asking the soon-to-be Supreme Court Justice Sam Alito about Presidential powers instead of Constitutional law. (Maybe because the Dems on the panel don’t know the Constitution).
They still don’t get it.
Putting Ted Kennedy out there asking about morals and abuse of power after his Chappaquiddick drinking spree is like asking Bill Clinton to baby sit your 16 year old daughter.
But the Democrats can’t help themselves. They see everything as a chance to attack President Bush and Republicans instead of a chance to make the American people think that MAYBE they can be normal for once.
In Matworld President Bush IS Jack Bauer and has the right to exercise his Constitutional powers. Bush also has the ability to be President without the little yappy dogs on the left trying to tear his pants legs off all the time.
In Matworld we also make the liberals act as if they know this is a post 911 world, not 1978 with Jimmy Carter in the White House trying to figure out how to get Iran to release hostages while the Democrat controlled House and Senate waffle on the issue for over a year.
Thank your lucky stars we have a President Bauer/Bush in office.
MTI
Cepan@aol.com
May 4th, 2006 at 6:26 pm# 192..Do you REALLY think that a link to "iranchamber.com" that provides nothing more than a chronology with no citation to any primary documents or contemporary news accounts is evidence?????
May 4th, 2006 at 6:27 pmRay McGovern is a 27 year veteran of the CIA. He is smart, experienced, articulate, and deserves praise for his questioning of Rumsfeld. If some posting here and other places can't take criticism, then they should perhaps emigrate to a country where leaders are never allowed to be questioned. The Bush White House has done such a thorough job of squelching dissent that when one dissenter does manage to break through the barriers, it shakes things up too much for them.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:28 pmHad this type of questioning been done years ago by journalists instead of lapdogs, and we would not find ourselves in the quagmire we are in today.
a LIE FROM A nEOcON? Ridiculous!!!!
Let's throw these goons out of power! How?
Clint Curtis is mounting a congressional bid in Florida against Tom Feeney. As many of you know, Curtis was the programmer asked by Feeney to write election-stealing software a few years back. Since then, much has happened, including the suspicious death of the Florida Inspector General Raymond Lemme looking into the matter and the total media clampdown of any serious discussion of electronic election manipulation in Florida and across the nation. Curtis, a former Republican, became so disgusted by what he saw that he became a whistleblower. The whole sordid tale is chronicled on http://www.bradblog.com.
Here's Curtis in his own words:
My name is Clint Curtis. I am running for the U.S. House of Representatives in Florida's 24th Congressional District. This great district is currently represented by one of the most corrupt politicians in history. Having personally attended closed-door meetings where Tom Feeney spoke candidly about his aspirations of corruption forces me to provide this district with an alternative to this man. I will need your help.
http://www.clintcurtis.com
Now Curtis is now taking on the VERY well-funded Feeney. He promises to fight for fair elections and to expose electronic vote fraud. He is the ONLY candidate who will take it to the NeoCons on this issue.
Because of his willingness to take on election fraud, I believe Curtis may be the single most important candidate for the progressive community to promote. Please visit his web site and offer to help, donate even $5 if you can spare it, and help spread the word. It's time to TAKE BACK AMERICA--and Mr. Curtis may be own only chance of overcoming a rigged election system.
http://www.clintcurtis.com
May 4th, 2006 at 6:30 pm#171 - Yay, Gerald Gibson! Finding out for yourself is the only way...
May 4th, 2006 at 6:33 pmI recall Secretary Rumsfeld making that comment within a few weeks of the commencment of the war. As I remember it, I was driving along I-95 in Florida and I heard that comment over the radio by the Secretary.
I wondered why we (the US) were not providing that information to the weapons inspectors if it was true, and I thought there must be some very good (but obscure) reason that we were not providing that information to the weapons inspectors. I thought that it would be very interesting to find out why we were not providing that information once the war began which appeared to be imminent at that time. I also thought that if Rumsfeld was lying, that there would be hell to pay afterwards if we really didn't know where the WMD was.
I was also following the efforts by Scott Ritter who was trying to tell everyone that, while Iraq was probably cheating here and there, Iraq had not reconstituted their WMD efforts. Ritter's successful efforts to get the UN weapons inspectors back in the country was a possibility of stopping the war from beginning. It now appears that Rumsfeld's comment that "we know where they (WMD) are" was a way to simply shut down the UN weapons inspectors efforts and begin the clock running on the commencement of the hostilities that had its own internal timeline that had to be adhered to.
I was willing to give the Secretary of Defense the benefit of the doubt and could not understand how he could lie about knowing where the WMD was if it was going to be proven false.
It appears that he was bluffing and just hoping his pronouncement would be overlooked once they really found the WMD - which they never did because he was just lying.
Someone needs to find an audiotape of Rumsfeld's comments that were made shortly before or shortly after the UN weapons inspectors were pulled out of Iraq. The tape of those remarks should be somewhere within the archives of the major news organizations or NPR.
Confront Rumsfeld with the pre-War remarks!
Also, look at the military timline for commencement of activities that has certain elements (insertion of forces into Iraq) that must begin before the air campaign takes place, etc. Rumsfeld had to adhere to the timeline, and Scott Ritter and the UN weapons inspectors were interfering with the timeline to get this over and done with.
This is the first time that I have ever left a message on this site. But I absolutely remember the Secretary's stunning statement BEFORE the war began. Please find it and publish it.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:34 pmCan you imagine having this guy look you in the eye and say " I didn't lie " . If you believe him then you're just as sociopathic as he is .
May 4th, 2006 at 6:34 pmThe chances for surviving the policies of the band of thieves are enhanced by the participation and by-passing of the MSM by bloggers. And brave people who get the chance to stand in front of these weasels and confront them with their lies.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:35 pmOn why this is all happening: some good background info on the BCF; (please ignore he anti-Israeli stuff, if you wish) (Long) http://www.tfdinstitute.com/network/bush.htm
Comment by Cepan
Take that picture of Hitler off your wall and go back to school and read about what Americas founding fathers were all about... They were not rednecks holding their sack and thumping their chests and cackling about what such big men they were ... You are a fool and your votes show it.
If you go read what the founding fathers wrote you will find a complete indictment against everything you stand for... and that was hundreds of years ago.. how is it they knew your kind were coming? Because they knew your kind well... then they were called red coat loyalists. The red coats were just like you.... "We will stomp those worthless Americans for the King!" "We will take their homes and their women and they were thank us for not killing them while they shine our boots with their tongues!"
Sooo how did that turn out for you BIG MEN??? I guess the "weak" "GIVE ME LIBERTY OR GIVE ME DEATH!" liberals can kick ass when you got them cornered cant they???
Go chew on that one for a while "cow boy"...
May 4th, 2006 at 6:36 pmCepan did you post some old thing from your personal Blog? The alito hearings were months ago, Bush poll ratings have dropped down to their lowest ever, and impeachment hearings have been started in a number of individual states.
As for Bush being like jack Bauer, I have not seen the show so I would not know, but I recall him talking about Chuck Norris in "Walker: Texas Ranger" and I think old georgie sees himself more as a cowboy then a NSA spy.
As for the wiretapping, the way we communicate has changed as has the technology, but listening in on conversation without a warrant is still illegal, regardless of how the conversation originates.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:38 pmWayne, I AGREE with your death penalty views - I would only resort to deadly force if there were no alternative to protecting my loved ones. I agree with you about LWOP as a more difficult punishment. Mr. Aphrodite disagrees with me - He thinks that murderers should be executed in the same manner in which they committed murder. I tried to explain my "vengeance " argument - he swears it isn't vengeance - but "true justice". (For example, this am we were talking about Moussaui's LWOPsentence. I noted he would be punished more at a Super Max than a Tim McVeigh exit. I also believe he would be a lionized martyr - no thanks.....
May 4th, 2006 at 6:39 pmHey Cepan,
#
To Independant–You Loon:
Touched a nerve did I?
See the lates Foxnews Poll?
Bush UP 5 points…
From the same fox poll:
in the current survey, 39 percent of people responding say they think of themselves as Republicans and 37 percent as Democrats
In Fox News/Opinion Dynamics polls conducted over the last few months, an average of 39 percent of respondents identified themselves as Democrats, while only 34 percent identified as Republicans, suggesting that Republicans may be overrepresented in the current survey. This, in turn, may have had a small effect in overstating the president’s current approval ratings."
At the beginning of the year, 80 percent of Republicans approved of the job Bush was doing; now that’s down to 66 percent. It’s a similar story among conservatives: 68 percent approved in early January and 54 percent approve now.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:40 pm#205
look, stand up, walk outside and look for a big building with books in it you damned fool! it is called a 'library'...
if you go that site, the list re-printed here has no less than 20 CITATIONS
have the nice librarian show you how to look them up. also, get on a government documents database and look at the microfiche of the hearings of 1980s regarding iraq and chemical weapons.
you are either very ignorant, or just an extremist ann coulter panty-sniffer, rush limbaugh tea-bagger, or perhaps merely insane.
oh, and so you feel at home...
GO AHEAD, have the last word...
May 4th, 2006 at 6:42 pmFirst off cepan said " did you see the latest Fox news poll " right there he lost me . As for 24 it was good the first season after that very redundant at best , I think this guy just really likes Keifer .
May 4th, 2006 at 6:43 pmwhat is the date of the video?
May 4th, 2006 at 6:43 pmI think that is one of the few things we will ever agree on MA. I think Life without parole is a much harder punishment then execution. Life without parole means the convict will have to consider thier action everyday. they will never know freedom. An executed Massoui is a martyr for islam. a jailed massoui is a sad little man in a cell.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:44 pmIt's c o m ing clear er.....Let's see.., Cspan goes to Nascar events, trailer camps, has confused TV with reality, mentioned Kennedy, Carter ,Gore etc. ummmm.......I'll go out on limb......... white trash FOX viewing rush listening rightwing.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:46 pmCepan- your insane rambling diatribe reaffirms my conviction that you are a certifiable nutjob. Firstly, no one with an ounce of common sense goes to Fox news for any poll or news. It is for right-wing, anti-Constitutional degenerates such as yourself to get their kool-aid and be soothed like a heroin addict getting his fix.
What the hell does 24 have to do with this? It's a goddamn TV show you idiot! This is real life and real lives, and a REAL country at risk from your ilk. And you want to throw TV shows in my face? Go back to the wingnut fantasy land you came from. Oh, I forgot, that's Fox News.
The American people want Bush to defend them any way he can? Wrong again. Don't give me the lame, worn-out, already de-bunked idea that it only applies to land lines. IT APPLIES TO SURVEILLANCE YOU FOOL. Your intellect is only rivaled by your politcal persuation- a degree in NASCAR and trailer park surveying. And it isn't just Al Queda. He is spying domestically in direct violation of the 4th Amendment. But then again, neo-con idiots like yourself have probably never read the Constitution- if you can read at all. And you don't still think there are still land lines in use? He broke the law. Period. Stop making excuses for the worst president in US History. You are embarrassing yourself.
As for Ted Kennedy- go "Cheney" yourself and your bankrupted morals. Every time you neo-cons bring up Chappaquiddick, I'll bring up that sultry Texas evening the night the future 1st lady ran over her boyfriend who had just broken up with her. Get out of here with your stupid overtures about Chappaquiddick. It's old and worn out. I can't wait until Conyers can tell Sensenbrenner the supreme Nazi to sit down and shut up when the impeachment of Bush begins. Or is a blow job the only criteria for impeachment anymore?
You are historically challenged. I think we all know now how the hostages in Iran were brought home now don't we? These are the same criminals working in this illegitimate administration.
The "Patriot Act" is the most un-Constitutional, un-Patriotic, anti-American P.O.S. ever introduced to congress. It does more to infringe on our freedom than it ever has done to defend against terrorists. Have you ever read it? I doubt it. But again, you neo-con cowards have always been open to giving up your freedoms in exchange for "security". That's what makes you cowards.
And go take your weak talking points with you.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:48 pmKrazny:
Jsut because a few whacko Blue States hold "Impeachment Hearings" means nothing in reality.
They have no power and no one cares.
Keep wasting your time and energy on Bush and Impeachment and we will go on running the country, fighting the War On terror, Apointing our judges on the courts, cutting taxes and opening up more land for oil drilling. Did I mention more Right To Carry laws?
Distractions keep you libs busy while the rest of us keep on doing whatb is right for the U.S.
Cepan
May 4th, 2006 at 6:49 pm#216 I am an atheist, but I do seem to recall hearing something about, "'Vengeance is mine', sayeth the Lord." You are correct in that executing Moussaoui would only have turned him into a martyr. Better he remain a disgraced, failed suicide-killer than a martyr.
And you can tell Mr. Aphrodite that we're long past the days of Hammurabi. Someday he may be accused of something he didn't do. I hope that day never comes but if it does, I hope he isn't facing the death penalty for it. Then he'll change his mind.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:49 pma LIE FROM A nEOcON? Ridiculous!!!!
Let’s throw these goons out of power! How?
Clint Curtis is mounting a congressional bid in Florida against Tom Feeney. As many of you know, Curtis was the programmer asked by Feeney to write election-stealing software a few years back. Since then, much has happened, including the suspicious death of the Florida Inspector General Raymond Lemme looking into the matter and the total media clampdown of any serious discussion of electronic election manipulation in Florida and across the nation. Curtis, a former Republican, became so disgusted by what he saw that he became a whistleblower. The whole sordid tale is chronicled on http://www.bradblog.com.
Here’s Curtis in his own words:
My name is Clint Curtis. I am running for the U.S. House of Representatives in Florida’s 24th Congressional District. This great district is currently represented by one of the most corrupt politicians in history. Having personally attended closed-door meetings where Tom Feeney spoke candidly about his aspirations of corruption forces me to provide this district with an alternative to this man. I will need your help.
http://www.clintcurtis.com
Now Curtis is now taking on the VERY well-funded Feeney. He promises to fight for fair elections and to expose electronic vote fraud. He is the ONLY candidate who will take it to the NeoCons on this issue.
Because of his willingness to take on election fraud, I believe Curtis may be the single most important candidate for the progressive community to promote. Please visit his web site and offer to help, donate even $5 if you can spare it, and help spread the word. It’s time to TAKE BACK AMERICA–and Mr. Curtis may be own only chance of overcoming a rigged election system.
http://www.clintcurtis.com
Comment by Neoconvict
Thanks for the link... he just got $50 from me... hope more of you help... stealing elections is worse than violating the first amendment... it is letting us speak then making it look like we said the opposite from what we really said (voted for) against our will.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:50 pm-The law has been updated several times since George Bush was appointed President.
- If the president believes any law is outdated or unconstitutional he has two recourses: Go to the republican controlled Congress and get them to change the law or go to Supreme Court.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:51 pm#40,
Why have I heard that type of response so many times from the Right. "In any other country you wouldn't be able to do that, you should be more appreciative".
Well we aren't in any of those other countries Mighty, so how is your argument relevant? You sound like those parents that tell thier kids to finish dinner because of all the other starving children, it has no bearing on anything except to manipulate emotions.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:55 pmDistractions keep you libs busy while the rest of us keep on doing whatb is right for the U.S.
Cepan
Comment by Cepan — May 4, 2006 @ 6:49 pm
I see gutting the constituion, bankrupting the country, saddling our great grandchildren with war and debt, sure is the "right" thing to do. I realize you have no rebuttals (assuming you know what rebuttal means) to my previous post. I am happy to see, that like any good right winger when backed into a corner you shrilly yell about how libs are dumb, and wasting their time and have no power.
as Bob Dylan once said "times they are a changin'" or something like that.
May 4th, 2006 at 6:57 pmI have never been this excited about someone having courage to be what America is supposed to be. A place where we have the right to ask, the right for truthful answers and the right to speak in any zone regardless of whether this administration thinks it can dictate or not and everyone will just calmly buy their lies. Thank you, young man for your courage. I pray others will follow!
May 4th, 2006 at 6:57 pmIndependant----
You just proved everything I said.
You are so Bitter and angry with life you can't even see reality.
You think name calling hurts me or changes anything.
YOu would have to do much better than that to even make me flinch.
You are like a little kid on a school yard merry-go round who can't get off.
YOU have no historical perspecive or truth and are living in an echo chamber of blogs and nut case web sites. That is why I love coming on these loon sites, tweaking you all into a frenzy. More fun than watching Howard Dean self destruct on TV.
Same old liberal conspiracy and "BUsh Is The Devil" rants.
This is about good vs evil, and your side is evil.
Foxnews is number one for a reason, people want news, not political rants like on The Clinton news Network or MSLSD.
Have a nice few months seething as Bush pulls the rug out from under you loons once again.
Cepan
May 4th, 2006 at 6:57 pmWell said Inde but let's lay off NASCAR these neo-cons aren't the type to watch it they're probably too tired from church .
May 4th, 2006 at 7:00 pmBush is corporate whore and his vice president shoots people in the face. How is this good for the U.S.?
May 4th, 2006 at 7:01 pmMr. McGovern was not funny in the least. He was being very rude.
Mr. Rumsfeld is the best, no the bestest, Secretary of Defense the world has known. His balls taste very sweet, like pomegranate juice. He will be a great Secretary for when we invade Iran.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:02 pmUmmm.. cepan, nice combination of your "bush is the devil" accusation, alongside calling people who disagree with you "evil"
dumbass. I bet you get your news from fox and you think natalie holloway and gay marriage are the top issues facing this country.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:03 pmYa Cepan- I love those "right to carry" laws.....it'll come in handy the day the lights go out. I know who I'm gettin'....
You guys have done such a great job running the country thus far- into the ground. Where are you headed? China? Oh, I forgot, that's right. Your chimp of a illegal president is selling chucks of America to the Chinese as we speak. He's done such a wonderful job. Maybe he could start selling off parts of the country to Saudi Arabia, or say, the United Arab Emirates. Damn, they beat me to it again. Geez, by the end of this term (if it doesn't end sooner), maybe America will be a wholly owned subsidiary of China!
You sick filthy America hater. Go back and jerk off to your Hitler poster.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:04 pmRay McGovern is a well respected and knowledgeable ex-CIA analyst. He was speaking the truth to Rumdum and that is why he was speechless. He always goes for the smart aleck humor to try and deflect, but that wasn't happening today. Bravo Mr. McGovern!
May 4th, 2006 at 7:04 pmI love Rummy's retort after the fact. He said suggesting leaders of the country would lie is fundamentally destructive.
Imagine that, someone accusing a politician of lying! Well, we can't allow that anymore, can we?
How stupid are these cons anyway?
May 4th, 2006 at 7:05 pmIt's about evil vs. evil so I guess everyone is on the side of evil.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:08 pmCepan-
You are truly the side of evil. If you weren't such a coward with your smart ass comments and actually had something of substance to say, I would have more respect. But you don't. You are running America into the ground, piece by piece. You are very good at describing yourself. And I guaratee you my historical perspective and education is vastly superior to yours.
See, disgusting people such as yourself only look at this as a game, while the rest of us based in reality see this as a critical time in the country's history. You bet I'm mad- any real Patriot would be when seeing his country dismantled by the enemy (Bush and people like you). The country is finally waking up- took a while. You and your ilk cannot win, because most Americans will put their foot down after you have taken too many freedoms away. The truth is- you hate America for our freedoms more than anyone else in the world. Answer one question, pal: Why do you hate America and its Constitution? Can you answer that question smart-ass?
May 4th, 2006 at 7:11 pmThanks to Ray McGovern for confronting Rumsfeld with as cogent an argument as I've heard so far. Especially the point about Zarqawi being beyond Saddam's influence. This is something which most of us knew about before the invasion of Iraq, and yet the press seemed to almost willfully ignore it. It was truly dishonest for the administration to accuse Saddam Hussein of cooperating with Osama Bin Laden, based on the fact that Zarqawi, a known Al Qaeda operative, was residing in northern areas of Iraq and beyond his control.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:12 pmWow! Did someone open up a TP time capsule? Cepan's posts remind me of the very first troll comments when this Blog started up. The nostalgia! I forgive all those that are too tired to debate with him. It is a chore.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:13 pmMy Goodness but this seems to have hit a "troll" nerve.
The more they rant, the more I think of what it is they wish to hide from us.
They have already successfully taken our attention away from Rumsfeld's blatant lying.
I guess to keep us from digging further.
These are either really evil people, or really stupid, brainwashed, drones of the Bush Regime.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:17 pmOh, and cepan- The only way Bush is going to "pull the rug out" is if he cheats and breaks the law yet again, while the GOP congress continues their treason by harboring a terrorist.
You need to get back to fox news for some more kool-aid.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:18 pm#243
do you really think these people are 'real'? i try to tell myself they are being skillfully ironic because i don't want to believe their are such dolts with fingers to type such nonsense. the 'all-caps' guy has got to be a put-on, no?
May 4th, 2006 at 7:18 pmHearing the kool aide drinking morons clap for Rummy sickens me.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:18 pm[...] Herr Donald Rummsfeld, ameriÅ¡ki minister za množiÄno zavajanje, je v Atlanti naletel na vztrajnega spraÅ¡evalca iz obÄinstva. [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 7:19 pmThe neo-cons have always had a disposition to admiring evil. Up until now, they live the fantasy through movies and TV shows. They are inherently evil.
Now they actually have a true-to-life cabal of evil to worship. These people have turned our stars and stripes into the pirate skull and cross bones.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:22 pmThe FISA law is outdated and ineffective with today’s technology and the President is doing the right thing by using 21st century technology to defend the country.
Comment by Cepan
Yeah, Ok.
So under your interpretation, the Constitution is old. All those laws are old. I guess they should go as well?
You are such a good goose stepper for Herr Bush.....
But those of us willing to THINK, and QUESTION, simply feel sorry for your sad brain washed ass.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:25 pmSweet,,, CIA knew they were lying. Rumsfeld has no honor. He should resign in disgrace.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:25 pmRay McGovern asked Rumsfeld why he lied, and then Rummy stood there and lied again.
Thank you, Ray McGovern for showing America why this country needs a Democratic House, so we can finally get the truth out of incorrigible liars like Donald Rumsfeld.
And then put them in prison, where they all belong!
May 4th, 2006 at 7:26 pmhitler, or was it cheney (?), said:
propaganda must be limited to a very few points and must harp on these in slogans until the last member of the public understands what you want him to understand.
this thread has proven that buhcheneyhitlerrumsfeldrice have been quite successful in filling the tiny minds of these tiny people...
May 4th, 2006 at 7:31 pmWhere are you Cepan, you neo-con coward? You have not answered my important question yet. For that matter, there hasn't been a neo-con anywhere that has been able to answer that question. I'll answer it for you as I have answered in the past for you and your degenerate ilk:
You hate America. You hate freedom. you are obsessed with controlling people. It is your desire to dismantle the U.S. Constitution and institute either biblical or marshall law. You can't face that fact in public, because it would expose you for the evil that you are.
It is our job to stop you. And believe me, we WILL stop you.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:33 pmFor Cepan, MA and the rest of the Bush true believers:
I'll make this as simple as I can.....
You ask a 5 year old if he knows where his shoes are and he says "under my bed, somewhere"
You look under his bed and there aren't any shoes.
Either he was 'not correctly informed' as to the whereabouts of his shoes or he was lying. (actually he was lying because he said he knew where they were and they were'nt)
Rumsfeld was asked " And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction? "
He answered " We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat."
WE KNOW WHERE THEY ARE but there weren't any.
slowy now THAT WAS A LIE
do you understand now? It dosn't matter who asked the question. It doesn't matter what Ted Kennedy did 30+ years ago. It doesn't matter that Clinton lied about a blowjob.
Donald Rumsfeld lied to Stephanopolous and then lied again
RUMSFELD: Well, first of all, I haven’t lied
Do you get it now?
May 4th, 2006 at 7:34 pmINdependant---
Did you miss me? Had to get my marching orders from Foxnews.
I feel sorry for you. You rant and rave about loving America, yet do everything in your powerless world to destroy PRESIDENT Bush and the War On Terror.
YOU and your ilk hate America and know it deep down inside.
YOU hate the Constitution and have cut it to shreds for 40 years. WE are taking it back and restoring it to what it was before the loons got to it.
YOU are the one who sees this as a game. I see this as a cultural war against liberalism and people like you who despise the Average American and his values.
WE have had enough of you and like it or not or going to continue the Reagan Revolution and the Bush Doctrine of spreading Freedom and Capitalism (like that word?) around the world.
You Blue staters can all make fun of Bush and whatever else you want, but everytime you do it we clean your clock at the polls. You are so easily distracted it is a sin to tweak you...but I must.
Liberlalism is dead, you just don't know it yet.
Cpan
May 4th, 2006 at 7:35 pmINdependant---
Did you miss me? Had to get my marching orders from Foxnews.
I feel sorry for you. You rant and rave about loving America, yet do everything in your powerless world to destroy PRESIDENT Bush and the War On Terror.
YOU and your ilk hate America and know it deep down inside.
YOU hate the Constitution and have cut it to shreds for 40 years. WE are taking it back and restoring it to what it was before the loons got to it.
YOU are the one who sees this as a game. I see this as a cultural war against liberalism and people like you who despise the Average American and his values.
WE have had enough of you and like it or not or going to continue the Reagan Revolution and the Bush Doctrine of spreading Freedom and Capitalism (like that word?) around the world.
You Blue staters can all make fun of Bush and whatever else you want, but everytime you do it we clean your clock at the polls. You are so easily distracted it is a sin to tweak you...but I must.
Liberlalism is dead, you just don't know it yet.
Cepan
May 4th, 2006 at 7:35 pmINdependant---
Did you miss me? Had to get my marching orders from Foxnews.
I feel sorry for you. You rant and rave about loving America, yet do everything in your powerless world to destroy PRESIDENT Bush and the War On Terror.
YOU and your ilk hate America and know it deep down inside.
YOU hate the Constitution and have cut it to shreds for 40 years. WE are taking it back and restoring it to what it was before the loons got to it.
YOU are the one who sees this as a game. I see this as a cultural war against liberalism and people like you who despise the Average American and his values.
WE have had enough of you and like it or not or going to continue the Reagan Revolution and the Bush Doctrine of spreading Freedom and Capitalism (like that word?) around the world.
You Blue staters can all make fun of Bush and whatever else you want, but everytime you do it we clean your clock at the polls. You are so easily distracted it is a sin to tweak you...but I must.
Liberalism is dead, you just don't know it yet.
Cepan
May 4th, 2006 at 7:35 pmI think what a lot of you fail to realize is that 'the powers that be' want continual war. Our largest industrial export is weapons. The secretary of War ( now called Defense) under Eisenhower, starting with Robert Lovett, stated we should have constant 'little' wars. This was to avoid financial depressions. Why do you think Eisenhower said to beware the military , industrial complex? What makes this administration MUCH worse than the others (which were bad enough) is that they are guided in part by a fundamentalist Christian way of thinking that supposes that Armegeddon would be a good idea. There have been maniacs like this in the past but they didn't have nuclear (or nuke U lar) weapons to accomplish it. We must get these people out of the government before they start World War III.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:38 pmBack that!
May 4th, 2006 at 7:40 pmGreat liberal blog site---It can't even figure out how to put a post up once and only once. Must have been designed by the same Democrat people who voted in Florida 2000
and couldn't figure out how to choose ONE name on the ballot
Oh well. Enough fun with you loons.
Time to go watch Oreilly and Hannity and Colmes. Must get my marching orders for tomorrow you know. (From the most trusted network on TV)
Try not to blow a gasket whuile I am gone you all and have a great time wasting your energy on November.
Cepan
May 4th, 2006 at 7:40 pmKrazy - Some people DO have remorse for the criminal activities they have committed - BUT some do not. But having visited several notorious prisons and a couple of Super Max institutions - THEY ARE NO PICNIC. The sad part is seeing lost potential - I returned home one night and we discussed the bright minds that could fashion weapons out of anything imaginable - if those skills were harnessed for good rather than evil.
#226 - Moussaui will be known as a STUPID failed martyr - and to be sentenced by a female judge (that had to HURT!) - just too delicious!
I have shown Mr. Aphrodite all of the the statistics - he is little on the primal side - in fact, if he could arrange to have publicly televised executions, he would. Of course, loving freedon as he does, people could choose not to watch. ick!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 7:41 pmDid anyone notice how Rumsfeld had to tell security guards not to take him away? No cameras though. You can get arrested for questioning authority in this country, but they're not showing it on TV yet. CNN is no better than Fox.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:42 pmOk, Cepan,
Are you so dumb that you don't understand that hitting the Post button 3 times results in you nonsense being Posted 3 times?!?!?
May 4th, 2006 at 7:46 pmAside from your inept triple post (which exposes your intelligence), you STILL haven't answered my question. You don't have to, I already answered it for you.
You seem to be confused on many things, but when it come to the Constitution, you have no clue. FYI, the Constitution is a liberal document whether you like it or not. It espouses freedom and democracy- 2 concepts you know nothing about.
I can't wait to hear your explanation for how I hate the Constitution. I keep the Constitution at bedside for reading every now and then, while you listen to Sean Insannity (another coward), and Bill O'Reilly (a sex felon). If you had any knowledge or respect for the Constitution, you wouldn't be on the side of evil. You would be on the side of freedom, democracy and the true American way. Instead, you have chosen the life of Fascism- the Dark Side. We can reform you- all you need to do is study some history about what the Founding Fathers intended, and complete some Constitution training. We really can reverse the damage done to you by your upbringing.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:46 pmHaving been inspired by Stephen Colbert's (and Helen Thomas's) and also by this gentleman's taking Rumsfeld to task so intelligently and disheartened by the concerted effort by the main stream media to silence opposition and alternative points of view, I think that we should begin a campaign of our own. It would be a kind of meet up. Using the internet, we could "appear" whenever national and local TV media are reporting in the field and provide appropriate politcal commentary in the background. You know, like the kids that are always clowning around behind local commentators. We can show up to the Today Show and GMA. I think that we have to launch a guerilla media campaign. Even if we get arrested, the chances are that we will then become the story. We could organize heckling via the internet so that wherever these guys go, there is someone there to ask the uncomfortable questions. We will need to work fast because the corporations are trying to take control of the internet and it will not be a public forum for very long.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:47 pmCepan - don't go away you haven't responded to my posts....
BTW what you "conservatives" don't get is that eventually every liberal idea wins.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:48 pmThe US of A being the first of them all. (unless you can show me how the tories were the true revolutionists)
I could not believe my ears when I heard Laura Bush's response when asked about the Bush Mission Accompished Speech on the Abraham Lincoln. She said that those men on the Abraham Lincoln had accomplished their mission and were on their way home. Even she has been taught to bend the story to fit the form. Did you happen to catch that one Aphrodite?
May 4th, 2006 at 7:49 pmThose who still support that moron in the white House are destroying America.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:50 pmI think the new Bush loving trolls on here like Cepan are old trolls with new screennames > lol. One I will call ExLax and the other See-Panic!
May 4th, 2006 at 7:51 pmMA-
May 4th, 2006 at 7:52 pmAs I stated in a previous post, (You know the one - where you accused a poster with having ED. It was one of your particularly nasty rants.) you know there is no "MR. MA"
It is simply your Mr. "Buzzy", developing ED itself at the mere site of you.
Acknowledging the truth is the first step.
Typical neo-con: blame the system and don't take responsibility. Go home you empty two-headed freak. You've been run. your rediculous comments have been outnumbered by valid points that you can't answer.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:52 pmDAMN!
There must be damn near 5 mentals here showing loyalty to Dumbsfailed.
Dumbsfailed has more fans than Bubble Boy himself! WOW!
May 4th, 2006 at 7:54 pmGood for that guy who stood up on his hind legs and questioned him. We're finally telling these assclowns to their faces (both of them) what we think of them).
Post #500. Read it, if you dare, but you won't like a lot of what I say if you're loyal to the Left b'sphere.
I'll be making myself much scarecer these days and this time I mean it.
Included are some lengthy impressions of what's been lately going on with Mr. Aravosis and ABlog, including some parting shots at FDL and other "power brokers."
May 4th, 2006 at 7:57 pmNat- I agree. Anyone doing everything they can to get this illegitimate SOB out of office is doing a great service to the Country. Enemies can be found abroad, and obviously right under our noses.
Cepan will not answer. He just wants to get the last word and run away like the coward he is. He can't win his argument, if you want to call it that. He is probably one of the worst debaters I have seen on any site in recent memory. Besides, he's an enemy of the State.
May 4th, 2006 at 7:58 pm#224 - "The “Patriot Act†is the most un-Constitutional, un-Patriotic, anti-American P.O.S. ever introduced to congress." - "coment " by IndY-pendant
*****United States Executive Order 9066, was the order signed by FDR to intern Americans of Japanese ancestry and japanese nationals. It beats the Patriot Act hands down. Brush up on your history and then you can play with the "Big Kids".
May 4th, 2006 at 7:58 pmMA:
“The “Patriot Act†is the most un-Constitutional, un-Patriotic, anti-American P.O.S. ever introduced to congress.†-
United States Executive Order 9066, was the order signed by FDR to intern Americans of Japanese ancestry and japanese nationals. It beats the Patriot Act hands down. Brush up on your history and then you can play with the “Big Kidsâ€
Executive Order
Yes brush up on your history
May 4th, 2006 at 8:03 pmUnited States Executive Order 9066, was the order signed by FDR to intern Americans of Japanese ancestry and japanese nationals. It beats the Patriot Act hands down. Brush up on your history and then you can play with the “Big Kidsâ€.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 4, 2006 @ 7:58 pm
What's your point?
May 4th, 2006 at 8:07 pm#256 - "...You ask a 5 year old if he knows where his shoes are and he says “under my bed, somewhereâ€
You look under his bed and there aren’t any shoes.
Either he was ‘not correctly informed’ as to the whereabouts of his shoes or he was lying.
Your analogy is poor and is not a parallel argument. (You are asking a boy about HIS shoes - the WMD's Rumsfeld was asked about were not the possession of the US.)
In short, your argument was too weak to carry much water Your neighbor is shooting at rabbits that are going after his garden. You have heard the commotion and have seen the dead rabbits. The local sherrif comes down the road and asks you if you know who has been shooting rabbits with a .22. When the sherrif does not find a .22 at your neighbors, does that mean you lied??? When the rifle is recovered from its hiding place, are you due an apology??
May 4th, 2006 at 8:09 pmHermaphrodite- go screw yourself. I can play in a higher league than this little boy.
I don't deny the Japanese internment was one of the darkest periods in history, aside from slavery, and if you want to throw red herrings out there- fine. We learned our lesson. You neo-cons want to blast people for bringing up the past, but you are willing to do the same if you think it benefits you. That's why I can't stand you people and you party of corruption and hypocrisy.
The Patriot Act is a worse threat to the Constitution, than the internment. The internment was not legislation- it was executive order- and bad at that. It was racist. But if the GOP were truly the party of states rights and strict adherence to the Constitution, as their original charter intended, they wouldn't have supported it. But then again, they have become the party of no rights, haters of the Constitution, and willing to sell out freedom for security. I'm sure the Founding Fathers are rolling in their graves as they see people like Bush and his supporters like you.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:10 pmcepan "can’t even figure out how to put a post up once and only once."
just click on "post - i agree" ONCE...wait 15 sconds or so while the program checks for spam and such, then whallah! amazing!
May 4th, 2006 at 8:13 pmAphrodite - 3 questions... bet you can't answer all of them honestly.
1. Do you accept the fact that Rumsfeld said that "we know where the weapons are"?
2. Is it possible to know something that isn't true?
3. If the answers to 1 is yes and 2 is no - then isn't Rumsfeld a liar?
May 4th, 2006 at 8:19 pmUtilizing the term " introduced to Congress" are you commenting (poorly) on whether a bill was voted on in both the House and Senate? Does your qualification of your statement mean FDR was the most un-patriotic, awful President???
May 4th, 2006 at 8:21 pmMA:
read this slowly.....
You ask someone if they they know where something is and they answer right here or over there and that thing IS NOT here or there...THAT IS A LIE..
Do you know where my picture of Babe Ruth is? The only proper response is NO. Because you don't know. If you say "somewhere in your house"...WHAT IF I DON'T HAVE A PICTURE OF BABE RUTH? Anything other than " I don't know" is a lie. Because YOU DON'T KNOW!!!!!
Your analogy is poor and is not a parallel argument. (You are asking a boy about HIS shoes - the WMD’s Rumsfeld was asked about were not the possession of the US.)
No, I'm asking a boy if he knows WHERE HIS SHOES ARE his response implies he does - but he didn't IT IS A LIE
It doesn't matter if the WMDs were in the US possession or control - Rumsfeld said he knew where they were - BUT THEY WEREN'T THERE - - again slowly so you understand.--
May 4th, 2006 at 8:22 pmTHAT WAS A LIE
Without a doubt, the most UNPATRIOTIC, Un-American TRAITOR of a "president' is George W. Bush.
May he go to jail for WAR CRIMES while here on earth.
And may he burn in hell with Rummy, Cheney, Saddam, Osama and Hitler.
The last 3 of which were Bush family "business associates".
Thank you...
God Bless America and the WORLD!
May 4th, 2006 at 8:25 pmNotice that not a single one of these rightwing creeps defending Rumsfeld have ever served in the armed forces. But they get off sending others to die in their place.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:25 pm287 - SuperKey - SuperGood Point!
May 4th, 2006 at 8:27 pmG.W.SuperChrist:
fish in a barrel?
May 4th, 2006 at 8:29 pmKranzy,
May 4th, 2006 at 8:29 pmThanks for the reply (185). Once the first bomb falls, whether it be conventional or otherwise, it'll be as if we hit a beehive with a stick. No matter how stupid or wrong it was, we'll have to defend ourselves. As Condi said herself, 'Iran is not Iraq." I hope all this righteous anger translates into action.
287 - er that wasn't me
May 4th, 2006 at 8:30 pm291 - Yeah but fish usually die after you shoot them... Aphrodite is more like Jason or Freddy Kruger... you can hit her with all the logic and truth you want - she just walk right threw it unfazed.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:34 pm"hard-headed" wingers don't believe in logic like us "fuzzy-headed" liburls
May 4th, 2006 at 8:37 pmSuperKay sometimes the numbers don't always line up. I was refering to the following comment - which is 287 for me... it may show up as 286 or 288 for you?
MA:
read this slowly…..
You ask someone if they they know where something is and they answer right here or over there and that thing IS NOT here or there…THAT IS A LIE..
Do you know where my picture of Babe Ruth is? The only proper response is NO. Because you don’t know. If you say “somewhere in your houseâ€â€¦WHAT IF I DON’T HAVE A PICTURE OF BABE RUTH? Anything other than †I don’t know†is a lie. Because YOU DON’T KNOW!!!!!
Your analogy is poor and is not a parallel argument. (You are asking a boy about HIS shoes - the WMD’s Rumsfeld was asked about were not the possession of the US.)
No, I’m asking a boy if he knows WHERE HIS SHOES ARE his response implies he does - but he didn’t IT IS A LIE
It doesn’t matter if the WMDs were in the US possession or control - Rumsfeld said he knew where they were - BUT THEY WEREN’T THERE - - again slowly so you understand.–
THAT WAS A LIE
Comment by SuperKey — May 4, 2006 @ 8:22 pm
May 4th, 2006 at 8:38 pm285 actually
so where's MA?
May 4th, 2006 at 8:40 pmGive Rumsfield a break! He doesn't lie, it's just that His Truth was and is fixed around the policy of going to war!
And for crying out loud, leave Mighty Aphrodite alone! She's suffering from the delusion she is actually a defense attorney. Come on now, an Ultra-Right-Wing Neo-Conservative Defense Attorney? Someone who gets criminals off on technicalities? I don't think so!
I can't really add to the debate above, except to observe the crowd's reactions, so totally supportive of Herr Rumsfield. Now that's the scary part.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:42 pmHats off to Mr. McGovern for having the tenacity to go one-on-one with one of the biggest hypocrits in our government in an attempt to elicit the truth! We, the American people, the body politic, see and know the truth. We need more people like Ray McGovern who are willing to press the Bush administration for the truth. Such duplicitous individuals!
May 4th, 2006 at 8:44 pmGive Rumsfield a break! He doesn’t lie, it’s just that His Truth was and is fixed around the policy of going to war!
ok whatever... Is that sort of like the George Costanza rule?:
May 4th, 2006 at 8:46 pmIts not a lie if you believe it
Greg (26). Correct you are. If the SecDef has forgotten that the DIA, NSA/CSS, DSS, NIMA and other agencies with intelligence functions report to him, perhaps he needs to retire. Org charts here.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:48 pmIndy - Of course you don't like people like me - but that is not unusual for the intolerant left.
Good night!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 8:53 pm#204- Damn, dude, I just peed a little, from laughing so hard at what you wrote. Bush= Jack Bauer?!? Gawd, that's SO funny!! Bush, put in a 24 hour day? Uhh, no. His sleep needs are well known, and he gets really cranky when his schedule is altered. And he needs his workout time too. And given how sheltered from reality his 'handlers' keep him, he just wouldn't be able to function. And Jack is always fighting the "terrorists" over here, Bush goes the other direction. But damn, that was funny!
May 4th, 2006 at 8:54 pmFor those who think IRAN will be a "cakewalk",
better read Tuesday's blog of "Baghdad Burning" entitled: "American Hostages".
http://riverbendblog.blogspot.com/
The girl makes sense.
150,000 American soldiers ("hostages"), and the IRANIANS control much of the Iraqi militias.
I don't wish it on our soldiers or ANYONE.
But if Bush and Rummy and the rest of the TRAITORS try to hit Iran, our boys in IRAQ may be in SERIOUS TROUBLE...
May 4th, 2006 at 8:57 pmNooooo
Now MA leaves without any good response to my posts.
One would think these wingers are "chickenhawks"?
May 4th, 2006 at 8:59 pmfor the record I don't dislike people like her. I don't even know them.
Its their lack of thinking and knee-jerk Bush worship I detest.
What #2 said - yeah. Rumdum, you lying sack of shit!
May 4th, 2006 at 8:59 pmwhere’s MA?
Comment by SuperKey — May 4, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
She usually goes and beats her dog when he gets bested... this can last for hours... she’s already gone through 3 dogs just today.
I personally think that she’s trying to avoid answering my 3 questions from 185 (maybe 183 on your computer).
Don't be scared MA... the truth will set you free.
May 4th, 2006 at 8:59 pmHere are some of the phrases the administration used to definitively say that Saddam has weapons of mass destruction:
"We know…"
May 4th, 2006 at 9:00 pm"There can be no doubt…"
“There is no question…â€
“Saddam possesses…â€
“Our conservative estimate is that Iraq today has a stockpile of between 100 and 500 tons of…â€
Well I've now read to post #176. I just had to stop and say this. It's amazing, really, that after that many posts, which took 2.5 hours to accumulate, not one...NOT ONE...rightwinger/troll/general butt head has said anything...ANYTHING...that supports Rumsfeld's contention today that he did not lie about stating "we" knew where the WMD's were.
Don't know about the rest. My eyes got tired so I thought I'd take a break. But if Rumsfeld's comments hadn't been defended during the first 2 hours, I doubt they were in the remaining (at the time I posted this) 111 posts.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:03 pmAphrodite - say it isn't so... you leave just when you are about to learn something... this could have been a turning point in your pathetic hate filled delusional life... oh well maybe tomorrow?
May 4th, 2006 at 9:06 pmSuperKey,
He's OLD, too! The old brain synapses don't work like they used to! I mean, this was a war of choice, yet he went to war with the army he had, not the army he wanted to have.
I'm sorry, but watching Rumsfield makes me ill. That he can stand up there an smile like it's no big deal when untold thousands of human beings are dead or maimed for LIES, no, let's call it like it really is, those people died for MONEY.
But the money doesn't go to them or their families. No, injured soldiers are billed for the equipment they lost when their limbs got ripped from their bodies. The real money goes to the guys that can get a 400 million dollar retirement package. That's the American Dream, buy God!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 9:07 pmLou Dobbs had an interesting point about Rumsfeld saying he wasn't in the intelligence business. Dobbs pointed out that the Pentagon gets the largest chunk of intelligence appropriations. How could the Secretary of Defense not be involved with intelligence?!
May 4th, 2006 at 9:07 pmCee,
I think that was Rumsfield saying he personally wasn't in the intelligence business. And his subsequent remarks seem to prove that out!
May 4th, 2006 at 9:10 pmWell, trying to tell wingers about reality and logic is like trying to deprogram a cultist.
Which, if you think about , is what they are - cultists.
An example:
McGovern raised a valid question but he is dismissed as a wacko. The validity of his question is not challenged.
Try convincing a cult member that maybe drinking that cyanide kool-aid so s/he can get onboard the spaceship might not be a good idea and you're either an agent of Satan or just not clued into the master's thinking enough.
Wingers=BushCultists
May 4th, 2006 at 9:11 pmI'm sorry, but if you think Rumsfeld knew that there weren't any WMDs, he would have been a dumbass to state on the record to the media that he knew where they were.
I guess I shouldn't even bring up the fact that their intelligence reports were saying that Saddam had dispersed the chemical weapons around the exact area he talked about. This came from Saddam's foreign minister, Naji Sabri.
Yeah. Well, we'll just ignore all that and keep believing Rumsfeld is a complete moron who knowingly lied and knew he would get busted to the media. Yup. Seems logical to me.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:14 pmCome on, Rumsfeld knew exactly where they were because Iranian spy Ahmed Chalabi told him exactly where they were.
Hell no, you don't believe that a stand up guy like Chalabi would lie to tie the US up in Iraq so his friends in Iran could build a nuke........do you?
May 4th, 2006 at 9:15 pmSeixon sez....."I’m sorry, but if you think Rumsfeld knew that there weren’t any WMDs, he would have been a dumbass to state on the record to the media that he knew where they were."
hey, you said it not me
May 4th, 2006 at 9:19 pmThat "audience member" is Ray McGovern! A former CIA analyst who briefed Reagan and Bush 41. And our incompetant news media almost totally missed that little tidbit of information. What ever happened to investigative journalism? Have they killed that too?
Go, Mr McGorvern!
May 4th, 2006 at 9:21 pmNumber 6? That man is no nutcase, which you apparently define as anyone who does not agree with you. Point out whether he was wrong, sheeple. Or shut up. We no longer stand for ad hominem attacks by the uninformed.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:24 pmI’m sorry, but if you think Rumsfeld knew that there weren’t any WMDs, he would have been a dumbass to state on the record to the media that he knew where they were.
Comment by Seixon — May 4, 2006 @ 9:14 pm
These are two separate issues.
He doesn't have to know that there aren't any WMDs to know that he is lying when he says he knows where they are.
He may have suspected they were there... he may have believed whole heartedly that they were there... but he could not have know they were not there... because they weren’t there!!!
May 4th, 2006 at 9:24 pmI forgot to add...Rumsfeld holds and is in charge of most of our intelligence budget and runs the DIA. Another lie. Big surprise.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:26 pmG.W.SuperChrist?
this may be the scariest thing i've ever seen. way scarier than any terrorists. and by the way? you're an ignorant apologist and you know damn well they lie and lie and lie. change that name of yours to pinocchio.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:33 pmHUH?
I’m sorry, but if you think Rumsfeld knew that there weren’t any WMDs, he would have been a dumbass to state on the record to the media that he knew where they were.
I guess I shouldn’t even bring up the fact that their intelligence reports were saying that Saddam had dispersed the chemical weapons around the exact area he talked about. This came from Saddam’s foreign minister, Naji Sabri.
So the WMDs were moved...TO WHERE? Why haven't we still found them ? And Why has the administration admitted there weren't any?
May 4th, 2006 at 9:33 pm
Looks like it's lights out for the mentals....Their meds kick in quickly, thank god!
Sleep tight little mentals. Be up bright and early tomorrow ready to defend another criminal.
At least the mentals have a purpose...nighty night neocon chickenhawk mentals.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:34 pmJeeze Seixon, Rumsfeld saying that you go to war with the army you have, not the army you want pretty much pegs the guy as a world class dumbass.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:35 pmSeixon - can you accept that one can not know something that isn't true?
Will you be the first troll to accept this very simple and absolute reality... WILL YOU... WELL WILL YOU???
May 4th, 2006 at 9:36 pmHear, hear #329
Donald Dumbsfaiiled....I love it!
May 4th, 2006 at 9:37 pmWMD now means We Meant Democracy anyway. Didn't you all get the memo?
And lie now means "misspoke."
I need a new copy of the neocon dictionary...I'm getting lost too.
Oh and the mole people moved the weapons to Syria...I mean Iran...I mean Syria.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:38 pmOh I'm sorry, I will never try to convince a cultist again.
Damn the facts! I've got faith!
going to watch the NBA playoffs y'all
May 4th, 2006 at 9:39 pmWould a perfectly counterfited $100 bill the equivalent of a weapon of mass destruction?What happened to all the cash that went to Cantwait right after the invasion? Did we ever determine those were real.?When did we switch to new bills? The new hundreds were first weren't they? Then the Twenties. Sorry if this seems way out there but doesn't Sec. Rumsfeld own a huge amount of Roche stock? Isn't he the one that suggested, a few years back, an office of dis-information? Why do I not believe that just went away?What is Ret. Admiral John Poindexter up to these days? Comments in the 300' quite a poll.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:40 pmG.W.SuperChrist?
this may be the scariest thing i’ve ever seen. way scarier than any terrorists. and by the way? you’re an ignorant apologist and you know damn well they lie and lie and lie. change that name of yours to pinocchio.
Comment by Lucidity — May 4, 2006 @ 9:33 pm
Your gonna have to help me out here Lucidity... not sure what the hell your talking about?
May 4th, 2006 at 9:40 pmWasting your time talking to Seixon; True troll says only lies and total distortions.
He only wants to you waste you time replying to his non-sense.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:41 pmHmmm... The problem is all most all liberals will jump on anything that is anti-bush and anti-republican no matter if its true or false....
so when something that might be true and serious such as this instance is less effective because those more moderates cannot trust the liberals to give a unbiased argument.
WTF should I even pay any attention to this even if rumsfeld "lied" when all it is just potentially another instance of liberals trying to make something seem worse than what it is for political points and to reinforce there own conspiracy theories.
It seems like most of you were not taught the story about the boy who cried wolf. I feel I'm a moderate republican and actually more of an independent(since I try to base my views on reality and logic than party).
The problem with the democratic party is that they will take any issue no matter how absurd with the republicans and the administration. The impression is that they just want to be on the other side just to be "different".
The democratic party needs to get its shit together, clean house(i.e., remove all the nuts), and come up with some solutions that will work. Maybe one could say the same about republicans but its to a much lesser extent. By nature, the democratic party will let more nuts in than the republicans. Those types of people drag down the whole party and interfer with the more moderate and rational views that the democratic party has.
So, personally I don't know about this issue that much but if rumsfeld said what he said and now he is denying it and trying to back out then everyone should take issue with it. Even if he said "We know exactly where the WMD's are" and aslong as he admits saying that and says he was wrong then its ok... if he denies saying that then there is a problem.... but this is just another issue that will go under the radar for the american public because the left wing nuts will amplifiy it as the do will every problem and we won't take it seriously.
It democrates will stop saying absolutely stupid shit like "Bush caused 911", etc... then maybe they will be taken more seriously. You have to have proof and not just wild speculation(which most is... in this case it doesn't seem that way though).
I suppose why so many leftists are up and arms about this is cause they ahve never been wrong? My only problem with rumsfeld is that he is trying to slither out of it and not fessing up to what he said(which I don't know for a fact he said that but...).
If this is the best democrates can do then you guys have a long way to go before you are taken serious. How bout spending some time thinking up how you can solve problems instead of how you can make up stories about stupid shit. Maybe if you spend some time acting resonable then when you do find something worth talking about people will listen.
I don't waste my time investigating what you guys because some of it is just plain nuts and other times it just seems like trying to score political points. Put some content into your arguments, stop rehashing the same ideas... show the american people you are here to help and not to just bash people for every little thing. If you spent half the time you did on think about how to fix our problems instead of thinking about how you can bash someone we might actually get somewhere and be better off than the republicans.
I personally don't agree with most of the republicans agenda but atleast they have one... atleast they don't have to many super radical and stuper stupid ideas(they have a few though). Get all those nuts out of your party and start focusing on the real issues... even if some republicans bash you eventually you will win out. Its not about who make the other look the worse but who can supply the best ideas.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:42 pm[...] Hat tip Think Progress. Go there for more, including this: SEC. RUMSFELD: …We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat. [...]
May 4th, 2006 at 9:43 pmDid anyone notice how Rumsfeld had to tell security guards not to take him away? No cameras though. You can get arrested for questioning authority in this country, but they’re not showing it on TV yet. CNN is no better than Fox.
They showed the guard with Ray McGovern on CNN. And the reason Dumsfeld interrupted and said not to take him away was 1.) he knew who it was and 2.) he needed to get out of answering the question, which he was bumbling over very badly at that second. It was all self-serving. I have no doubt.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:43 pmyes, just remind the trolls that they're BACKWASH and get on with the discussion.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:44 pmYour gonna have to help me out here Lucidity… not sure what the hell your talking about?
Comment by G.W.SuperChrist
Sorrry...I meant Seixon's comment *redface
May 4th, 2006 at 9:45 pmWhy does Richard Cheney give "We're going to kick your ass" speeches? He is a diplomatic Hooligan . Why do I think he thinks himself as John Adams?
May 4th, 2006 at 9:48 pmThe difference between Seixon and Lucidity?
Lucidity will acknowledge mistakes and even apologize.
Apology accepted... no big deal just a little confusing that’s all.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:49 pmWho really cares if Rumsfeld lied, didn't lie, is deluded, or lives in an alternate reality?
As a foreigner, I have to wonder if Iraq's main export had been bananas, would so many Americans have died in the pursuit of "democracy" in that country.
Rummy and his ilk seem to be victims of their own spin. "If I say it, it must be true, and any one who disagrees is a traitor, and responsible for killing our glorious soldiers."
If the US cannot even triumph over a "few dead enders", why would country in the world pay any attention to what the US administration wants or doesn't want.
Forget Dumbsfelt and all the rest. Get on with life and enjoy it as best you can - Bush, the black stick insect, Mr Senility, and all the rest will die - in time. It doesn't matter whether you care or not.
And, while you are stoking up your personal fires of righteous indignation, ready to support this side or that side, look through history for a perfect (or even reasonable) form of government.
Not so easy is it? Just because Rummy and the rest spout the wondrous benefits of "democracy", look around you.
Maybe they are lying about that too. Just a thought.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:50 pmWako, Rummy did more than lie. He misplaced $2.6 TRILLION, which that came out in July of 2001. How long were they in office at that point? And this was money that was fully accounted for when they "took" office. The press conference announcing that little bit of trivia was held on 9-10-2001. I guess it got "lost" in the shuffle. And miraculously? There are few references left about it anywhere. Into the vortex with all damning evidence. Well the vortex or eyes-only classified drawer. This is not the only thing they've lied about, and Ray McGovern, whom Think Progress really should have researched and attributed in my opinion, is in a position to know. He should be listened to.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:51 pmwako,
"How bout spending some time thinking up how you can solve problems instead of how you can make up stories about stupid shit."
funny, that sounds like what i used to say about the gop in the 90's. you remember, when clinton was the cause of everything that went wrong?
interesting how now that the gop is in charge, clinton's still the cause of everything that goes wrong. and as for "super radical ideas" i can't think of anything more radical than letting the most rabidly fundamentalist, rapture-embracing freaks hijack your party.
(and just for your information, i've only voted for a dem once in my entire life -- and it wasn't clinton)
May 4th, 2006 at 9:54 pmMcGovern was a CIA analyst from 1963 to 1990 and during the 1960s his responsibilities included analysis of Soviet policy toward Vietnam. At this time, he worked near the very top of his profession, giving direct advice to Henry Kissinger during the Nixon era. He was one of President Ronald Reagan's intelligence briefers from 1981-85 when he was in charge of preparing the President’s daily security brief. He also briefed President George Herbert Walker Bush in the White House in the 1980’s, and counts himself a personal friend of Bush Sr.
McGovern is former CIA chief for the Middle East, and a former CIA operations officer, making him a veteran of the CIA’s clandestine service, which manages the agency’s counterterrorism center, espionage and paramilitary operations.
May 4th, 2006 at 9:54 pmBitch slapped.
May 4th, 2006 at 10:04 pmTo those who have posted links and given us pertinent information (you know who you are), thank you for providing us with the ingredients of informed opinion. To those thirty percenters who won't admit that they are getting the education that MyPetGoat Boy never got (you also know who you are), do not despair: you'll get it some day!
May 4th, 2006 at 10:12 pmWako probably should be renamed Wacko on here > lol. Most of the goofy nuts are in the Republican party now! The GOP is filled with loonies and crazies! There are a few nuts in the Democrat Party > Lieberman is one and Hillary Clinton is becoming more right wing rabid every day too!
May 4th, 2006 at 10:14 pm#58 said:
"HEH! I love that Rumsfeld made the questioner look foolish! Notice how the audience was cheering and applauding Rumsfeld. I wonder how the questioner felt knowing that he had made a fool out of himself???"
TRAITOR WAR CRIMINALS applauding and cheering a TRAITOR WAR CRIMINAL???
Well, isn't that SPECCCCIAL!!!
God Bless America and the WORLD!
May 4th, 2006 at 10:19 pm#58 said:
"HEH! I love that Rumsfeld made the questioner look foolish! Notice how the audience was cheering and applauding Rumsfeld. I wonder how the questioner felt knowing that he had made a fool out of himself???"
TRAITOR WAR CRIMINALS applauding and cheering a TRAITOR WAR CRIMINAL???
Well, isn't that SPECCCCIAL!!!
God Bless America and the WORLD!
May 4th, 2006 at 10:20 pmSecretary of Defense...
Did Rumsfeld really lie about knowing where the WMDs were in Iraq? Rumsfeld may have lied about Iraq, but unfortunately for Ray McGovern and the VIPS squad, not in this instance. Try to pick a winning hand next time, because this time, I've got a roya...
May 4th, 2006 at 10:24 pmDonny Bumsfeld is the only thing between Lord Mush and a hard place!
May 4th, 2006 at 10:29 pm#344, the dumb thing about #58 and the other retards is that the "questioner" is/was a Bush friend and collegue at one time.
See how quickly they turn on one another?
May 4th, 2006 at 10:30 pmKeep givin' hell Ray. You've got the major league gohonas, not Bumsy!
May 4th, 2006 at 10:33 pmnorth-east-south-and-west.... you gotta admit... that is not exactly a pinpont accurate description of the location of anything... so was he lying? or is he just stupid? ahhh... the choices we face. i'm voting "stupid". of course i'm voting on a certified 100% accurate diebold machine... so it could go either way.
besides enjoying these posts, and laughing my republican off at this interview, the recent press conferences, and the SC roast, i would like to remind all of my equally left and honorable friends to gather dozens of voter registration forms and pass them around. the (excuse my paranoia) righties who trashed so many off the voter lists last time around may do it again........ maybe register republican haha... then vote democrat.... always fun pissing off the opposition.
May 4th, 2006 at 10:33 pmhey SUCKSON, 1 Ace hole (Dumsfeld), 1 King(shrub), 1Queen (Karl Rove) and 1 Jack (Abramhoff) makes a courtesy flush.What a stank!
May 4th, 2006 at 10:40 pmWar Criminal and TRAITOR Rumsfeld
Yep, Rumfilled said: We KNOW where they are.
He is a LIAR. and a TRAITOR.
Just like Bush.
They will all burn in hell with Saddam, Osama and Hitler, all of whom were Bush family "business associates"
Yep, Sexion, he DID say that.
And IS a LIAR. And a TRAITOR to the USA and everything it USED to stand for.
God Bless America and the WORLD!
May 4th, 2006 at 10:41 pm#329- A person with your 'insight' is wasted here. Progressives will never agree with your 'viewpoint', nor will they be interested in implementing any of your "suggestions' as to what they should do to improve themselves. And why is that? Because advice from someone incapable of the intellectual insight, and honesty, and personal integrity to be cognizant of the incredible HYPOCRISY of what they are saying, have no business telling others what to do.
May 4th, 2006 at 10:45 pmIgnoring that Saddam's foreign minister told the CIA the exact thing that Rumsfeld said: priceless.
May 4th, 2006 at 10:48 pmI'm an independent - Natural Law Party.
Wako, why didn't you simply follow the links in the story? By posting "I don’t know for a fact he said that but..." you come across not as an independent thinking moderate Republican but as an apologist for the Administration.
I do tend to agree with your assessment of the Democratic Party. In fact, the only person I have seen put forth a coherent, consistent statement on the issue of the war has been Cindy Sheehan. She has been unequivocal in her call to bring our young men and women home before another mother has to go through the hell she has and is going through.
You may or may not agree with her, but you know where she stands, and you know why. I'd like to see more Democrats, or a viable Independent, stand up with that kind of courage and drive.
May 4th, 2006 at 10:51 pmseixon = backwash
May 4th, 2006 at 10:53 pmthink progress = brainwash
May 4th, 2006 at 10:58 pmBush=Rumfilled=WAR CRIMINAL TRAITORS to the USA.
May 4th, 2006 at 11:00 pm#353- You naughty thing, you! You know very well that that is not true. BushCo was very excited to learn of this high-ranking Iraqi, but once they learned that he was not going to confirm their assertions about those elusive WMD's, they lost interest, and instead used a guy named "Curveball", who had been discredited by the CIA, as their 'proof' of their claims. Nice try, though.
May 4th, 2006 at 11:15 pmMcGovern should have been head of the CIA and not someone who had a few years there.
As for the troll who brought up the show 24, I'd like to say that one of the main villains is President Logan who has many similarities to Bush. For one, he can't run the country properly and two, he sends the sleaziest of the sleaze to do his dirty work.
The show, which may have had a bit of a right wing tinge last season seems to be a little bit more that "fair and balanced" as some trolls may call it. Sure Jack may be a loose cannon, but at least he knows that Logan, like Bush, is no good. That, and the way the storyline has been handled is the best they've had since season 2. Though I'm pissed that Reiko Aylesworth's character had to be killed off in the season premiere.
Oh, and by the way, liberals watch 24 , too.
Other than that, I'd like to see more heroes like Mr. McGovern back Rummy against the wall and nail him down like the dog that he is.
May 4th, 2006 at 11:20 pmRumsfeld vs. McGovern...
Did anyone attend the speech at the Southern Center for International Studies and catch the kerfuffle between Donald Rumsfeld and Ray McGovern (and other protesters) today? It's been all over the news and the progressive blogosphere, but I wondered if...
May 4th, 2006 at 11:27 pmThere are religious cults and political cults. The Bush Administration 32 is both a religious and political cult,(the worst kind). They will no more hold Bush accountable than the Branch Davidians held David Koresh accountable for sexually molesting their children. Cult leaders can do no wrong in the eyes of their followers.
May 4th, 2006 at 11:42 pmWhy is everyone trying to link up there Blogs here now?
May 4th, 2006 at 11:46 pmYou guys just don't get it, do you? Rumsfeld didn't lie. He was speaking truthiness. He was looking at the truth with his guts. Yuo guys are just factinistas. Next time, don't read newspapers or books. Look it up in your gut. That's where you will find the WMD and that's where you will realize that Rumsfeld speaks the truthiness.
May 4th, 2006 at 11:48 pmBack in the 80s I was a jury foreman on a case of con-man grab money out of cashier's hand. It was considered assult and battery.
The reason I point this out is that during the video shown the Ray-Rummy face-off a woman was subjected to assult and battery by the people around her in the crowd. Several people grab the headscarf she had in her hands. They rip it from her. Then the security took her out of the room.
What did they do to Ray?
Maybe the woman and Ray need to file charges against these thugs!
May 5th, 2006 at 12:04 amDidn't Rumsfeld play a pivotal role under the Reagan administration in covering up Saddam Hussein's use of chemical weapons against "his own people" when the UN tried to investigate?
May 5th, 2006 at 12:04 amOh, and Curveball wasn't discredited by the CIA, he was discredited by the DIA and the Germans thought he was an unreliable drunk. Oh, and Curveball didn't comment on the existence of chemical weapons, like Naji Sabri did, so he has really nothing to do with this topic at all. Even though CBS and Tyler Drumheller would love for you to believe so.
Try to get out more, your brain is rotting by hanging around here too much.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:08 amIteresting that Rumpsmeldt said, "let him stay".
Apparently, his jackboot brownshirts were about to eject the man who would dare confront Rummy with the truth!
Don't go quietly, or peaceably. They are the lawbreakers, not us!
May 5th, 2006 at 12:15 amseixon, BACKWASH
May 5th, 2006 at 12:24 amYes, yes. Confronted with the truth, attack, I know. Standard operating procedure around here.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:25 amRay McGovern speaking Friday night in Decatur
Georgia Peace and Justice Coalition/Atlanta
http://www.georgiapeace.org
CIA Whistleblower to Speak in Decatur
Thursday, May 4, 2006
FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE
Contacts: Alex Sabbeth, 678-352-0619 (h); sabbeth@aol.com
Gloria Tatum, 404-374-4098 (c); 404-315-6950 (h); glt33@bellsouth.net
Ray McGovern, a former CIA analyst of 27 years who has now become an outspoken critic of the Bush Administration, will speak Friday evening, May 5, on “Patriotic Whistle-Blowers vs. the Bush Administration: Iraq, Iran, Torture and Domestic Spying.†The talk will begin at 7:30 p.m. at the Atlanta Friends Meetinghouse, 701 West Howard Avenue, Decatur. [To schedule an interview, call Alex Sabbeth, 678-352-0619.]
McGovern served seven US presidents and routinely presented intelligence briefings at the White House. However, for the last three years he has spoken and written widely against the Bush Administration’s use of lies to gain support for an unprovoked war.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:27 amMost recently, McGovern defended Mary McCarthy, a CIA official who was fired for allegedly leaking information on the CIA’s secret torture prisons abroad. He cites the Nuremberg obligation “to do what one reasonably can to prevent war crimes like torture.â€
In 2003, McGovern was a co-founder of Veteran Intelligence Professionals for Sanity (VIPS), which argued that US and British leaders had fabricated intelligence to support aggression against Iraq – a view later confirmed by the Downing Street Minutes of a meeting between British intelligence and US policy-makers, which revealed that “intelligence and facts were being fixed around the policy.†VIPS now includes more than 40 former intelligence agents from the CIA, FBI, National Security Agency, Defense Intelligence Agency, Army Intelligence and other agencies.
yea backwash, all curveball told us was that saddam was trying to buy yellowcake. but as you say here, he was an unreliable drunk. just like your president who went on to use those claims in the 2003 state of the union address.
funny how your efforts to disinform are undermined by the layers and layers of lies perpetrated by the bAdministration. everywhere you try to redirect leads to another untruth.
but what could one expect from BACKWASH?
May 5th, 2006 at 12:32 am[...] Whoops. As two seconds Googling of fifty million blogs would reveal, Rumsfeld told interviewer George Stephanopolous: STEPHANOPOULOS: And is it curious to you that given how much control U.S. and coalition forces now have in the country, they haven’t found any weapons of mass destruction? [...]
May 5th, 2006 at 12:37 amDinosaur guy,
Uh, Curveball wasn't involved in the yellowcake intelligence. Ooops. Get your facts straight, and then come back. Mk? Thanks. Hint: he was the one involved in telling us about the mobile biological labs.
And what does that have to do with Saddam's foreign minister telling us September 2002 the exact same thing that Rumsfeld said March 2003 which he is now being called a liar for?
Oh, nothing. Dodge, bob, and weave. Is that "progress"? I'm reminded of a game I once played: You Don't Know Jack.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:42 amsomeone above says:
Oh, and Curveball didn’t comment on the existence of chemical weapons
a three second search on google:
May 5th, 2006 at 12:46 am
oh, nevermind, it was that damned fool that doesn't live in the real world and has difficulty with the definition of simple words...
(wish i could erase my previous post so that i don't have to listen to the fool tell me that what it says isn't what it says, or what it says has nothing to do with what he was asking, or an uberliteral reading of curveball not EXACTLY saying that iraq had chemical weapons but only a bunch of these mobile facilities for making them and then claiming that because i don't have a video tape of curveball, under oath, saying "YES IRAQ HAD TWELVE POUNDS OF CHEMICAL WEAPONS AND THESE ARE THE EXACT GEOGRAPHICAL COORDINATES")
damn! oh well. i think i'll just go to sleep and let him say whatever the hell he can manage to say to show his ultra-arrogance.
jfcku bush
May 5th, 2006 at 12:53 amProving once again that when a politician can't lie, nothing comes out of their mouth.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:58 amGood Lord. Such tit-for-tat. Look, people. I've gotta get this off my chest.
Something is very wrong here. This constant back and forth arguing doesn't make any sense. Do you all realize how absurd this is? We are living in the Twilight Zone. In the waking world (The Daylight Zone), people have different opinions. They debate their opinions, and use convenient facts to back up said opinions. But not anymore. No, in today's America, people don't have different opinions anymore...........They have different frickin' FACTS! In every area of political discourse, whether here on the net, or in the newspaper columns, or on TV, people's FACTS directly contradict each other. There are bascially two completely different histories of the twentieth century being trumped by "liberals" and "conservatives" to support their "factual" interpretations of current events. Wait....what's an event? An event is something that happened. If something happened, there has to have been at least one FACT involved. So what was the fact? Was it fact A? No, it was fact B. No, this source says it was fact A. Nuh UH, THIS source says it was fact B. Hey listen losers, THIS source sez it was fact Q! So there! Ptttbt!
It is impossible to know what to believe. Just impossible. No one agrees. Our political discourse is a synapse-withering nightmare of puzzle pieces that don't fit together at all.
Look. Someone is wrong. Someone is wrong because these two opposing stories cannot possibly coexist in the same universe. Oh, they can to a certain extent---I realize life is complicated---but not to the extent that an impartial observer might be led to believe. Someone HAS to be wrong. I personally believe it is the right wing most of the time (believe me, I cannot possibly describe my loathing for these militaristic madmen who are driving our country to ruin), but I cannot know for sure because there doesn't seem anyone, anywhere, who will agree to full disclosure.
Not here, not on FreeRepublic, not on DU, not on LGF, not in the NYT, not in the Washington Times, not nowhere. I don't care if you're trying to prove why killing puppies is wrong. If something contradicts your thesis, ADDRESS IT. Get it out there and examine it. That way you can more fully understand your position. Because when you put the WHOLE story together, I believe that there simply has to be ONE truth left in the end.
Some people try to tell me that there really isn't such a thing as "objective truth". Bull. Here's an example. Suppose I touched you on the shoulder. Okay. Now, one observer might have said that I "tapped" your shoulder. Another might have thought I "punched" your shoulder. A third might think I "slapped" your shoulder. BUT. ALL of them can agree that I touched your shoulder in some way. THAT is what I am after. The touch.
Unfortunately, our culture doesn't have that. What we have is one side saying that I touched your shoulder, the other saying that I didn't, and that it's nothing but crazy conspiracy theories. I know it's more complicated than that, but that's how the situation looks to me.
Right now, on Freerepublic they're going on and on about these supposed mountains of documents being uncovered in Iraq that prove Saddam's many Al Quaeda links. I see it every day lately. I haven't looked very closely, just in passing, but to the Freepers it seems to be just as much common knowledge that Saddam was working closely with Bin Laden and planning terrorist strikes against American interests as it's common knowledge in some Middle Eastern countries that Jews drink the blood of Muslim children.
But nowhere else do I see these documents mentioned. (tell me if I'm wrong) Not in the MSM, not in liberal blogs, not anywhere else. So what does that mean? The Freepers didn't make this stuff up out of their heads. Just like the websites like 911truth.org don't make that stuff up out of their heads. Where the bloody hell does all this stuff come from? And why, O WHY will NO ONE put it ALL together? I know it's a huge task, but SOMEONE has got to try. Or else, we'll just stay in this horrible deadlock forever. I hate this culture wars crap and the way it's keeping us from looking at the real issues in this country. I hate the sealed-off nature of internet politics and how everyone's mindset is so impenetrable. (I'm among the guilty, in that area). Like I said, someone is wrong. And I'm sick of not knowing who.
Sorry. I just had to get all that out of my head. It's been driving me nuts for years. So.....uh.....hello!
May 5th, 2006 at 1:00 amIF LEFT TO THE LEFT WE WILL SURELY SURRENDER!
May 5th, 2006 at 1:03 amyea you're right - the bush administration has authored so many lies it's hard to keep them all straight. you must be one of the propaganda-catapulters, backwash.
the yellow cake claim and the mobile weapons labs claims came out of the same place - the Weapons Intelligence Non-Proliferation and Arms Control Center (WINPAC), backwash.
both have been debunked, backwash.
both were cited by the administration well after they were proven untrue, backwash.
and you want to argue the finer points, backwash. fine, backwash. curveball was not the source for the yellow cake claim, backwash. my mistake -- which, incidentally, hasn't resulted in anybody's death, backwash. i'm not a professional talking-points regurgitator like yourself.
but if you want to argue that and ignore the inconvenient facts, go right ahead, backwash. you can obviously support a liar; i can't.
that's what makes you backwash.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:06 amrisser,
Can ya read buddy? You proved exactly what I said. Curveball was all about the biological weapons labs. Not chemical weapons. As you have so ably proved yourself. Quit proving me right, I'm starting to blush.
Or do you really not know the difference between biological and chemical? LOL. In your zeal to prove me wrong, you actually provide evidence of exactly what I said. You guys are so unhinged that you don't even realize it when the truth bites you in the ass.
Why are we even talking about Curveball at all? Oh, right, it was a shiny object thrown into the sand box to make all the progressives on here forget all about what I was saying because the truth proved inconvenient.
Naji Sabri, Saddam's foreign minister, told the CIA the same thing that Rumsfeld said. Finito.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:07 am[...] Rumsfeld gets grilled by an audience member. Fantastic video. Frickin’ fantastic video. It’s a shame, though, that at these kind of videos, the majority’s opinion always seems to be “MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! SHUT UP! MOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!” [...]
May 5th, 2006 at 1:10 am[...] Rumsfeld gets grilled by an audience member. Fantastic video. Frickin’ fantastic video. It’s a shame, though, that at these kind of videos, the majority’s opinion always seems to be “MOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO! SHUT UP! MOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!” [...]
May 5th, 2006 at 1:10 amRex,
No, the uranium claims did not come from WINPAC, neither did Curveball's bio labs. How many more facts are you going to butcher while calling me names?
And no, the administration didn't cite them long after they had been told they were debunked. In fact, the uranium claim is still accurate, that Iraq sought uranium, according to French intelligence. The administration wasn't told about Curveball's unreliability until later.
And yes, I want to argue the finer points, since you seem to have absolutely no clue about anything you say. You just regurgitate an incoherent mess of incorrect information.
I'm not the one ignoring the facts here - you are, as you have already admitted.
Try actually learning something instead of calling people you don't want to listen to a bunch of names.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:12 amYou guys are demonstrating exactly what I'm talking about.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:14 amI'm not trying to attack anybody, but am I the only one who thinks this is crazy?
May 5th, 2006 at 1:15 amwith rummys actions today, I think we are gonna get hurt again real soon, by some box cutting wielding towelheads. they will probably have an Iranian flag in there back pocket and koran in their shorts to boot.
people are wakening up fast.
the faster we wake up the masses to the truth about this fake war and 911 the more dangerous to this governement we become. And the sooner the manufactured terrorist attack us, as a distraction of course.
that means the real war is just getting started.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:18 amall this backwash bluster is really funny. you argue the technicalities. that's all you're left with when your dear leader is a worthless alcoholic hell-bent on being a war-preznit.
good thing for you he likes backwash.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:19 am[...] Okay, now onto the video. First, I’d like to toss a hat tip to Chris In Idaho from Bring It On, and Think Progress for the vid link. I had heard the audio on Mike Malloy’s talk radio show on my way home tonight, but the audio didn’t properly demonstrate the “squirming” of the Rumster like the vid clip did. You’re probably going to need the QuickTime player to see it if you don’t already have the application installed. It’s a free download and you can get it here. [...]
May 5th, 2006 at 1:19 amMarbles,
Yes, it is crazy. No one on here will address the fact that Rumsfeld said the exact same thing as Saddam's foreign minister told the CIA. I think you can see why. For bringing this up, I am smeared and belittled. The fact I brought up is never addressed.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:22 amSeveral people have brought this to attention, but I don't think it's being focused on nearly enough. Let's remind ourselves: From the video soundtrack, it appears that security was trying to remove a reporter for asking tough questions. I mean whoa. Freeze-frame that right there. That alone should really say something.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:24 amstrange. why do so-called "conservatives" -- neo or otherwise -- criticize people who exercise their First Amendment rights? The late Barry Goldwater, Air Force general and Republican presidential candidate, once said: "Extremism in the defense of liberty is no vice; moderation in the pursuit of justice is no virtue."
May 5th, 2006 at 1:24 amRex,
Just admit that you are in over your head and you have nothing to say when it comes to the truth here. Rumsfeld didn't lie, you know it, but won't admit it. Calling me backwash over a dozen times won't make that go away. You're a cheap little goon who does as he is told and spouts off with unoriginal claptrap ("dear leader", wow where have I heard that before? zzzz...).
You haven't addressed a single thing I said, but did manage to call me names a bunch of times. Good going! Pat yourself on the back!
May 5th, 2006 at 1:26 amSeixon: That may well be, but my point is that the only way anyone seems to be able sport a position is through intentional ignorance of one thing or another. They may be ignoring what you said, but you (or your side of the argument) is ignoring a ton of stuff as well. The fact that I consider myself as being on one of the sides doesn't change the fact that I think this is nuts, no matter who does it.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:28 amfrom knight-ridder:
from the la times, 04/02/2005 (link no longer available):
so yea, whatever, BACKWASH.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:29 amSeixon,
You seem to put a lot of effort into "proving" that your minute details are correct. You appear to win some of your many small battles, but in the end you are losing the war (figuratively speaking). As long as you defend liars and criminals, you are doomed to fail, no matter how many of your small battles concerning the "facts" that you appear to win. Apparently, winning small battles satisfies your insecure ego. I think you're putting your money on the wrong horse.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:30 amMarbles,
He wasn't a reporter, he's Ray McGovern, an ex-CIA veteran in the VIPS group - a group who advocates CIA agents to illegally leak classified information to damage the Bush administration. As this was a private venue, not a public one, security will do whatever those who own the establishment want to be done.
The right to freedom of speech doesn't mean you have the right to use it wherever you please. In the middle of a street intersection, for instance. Or in a private venue where you are not welcome, for instance.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:31 amseixon is part of the shrinking 30%
getting more desperate everyday.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:33 amyes marble it's nuts.
can you say "a uniter, not a divider"?
can you say "13 years of blaming clinton"?
(never voted for clinton btw, but certainly got sick of the right-wing bitch and moan fest that still continues to this day).
i used to be a middle voter, but now i'm an anybody-but-republican voter.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:34 amthe right have themselves to thank for that.
Regarding the issue of the administration "lying":
May 5th, 2006 at 1:34 amI have yet to see any Bush supporter address the existence of PNAC, and the long-held agenda of its members. Any takers?
Seixon: I admit I don't know much about the context of that conference, but how private could it have been if the press was there? (by presss I mean CNN's cameras, not McGovern)
May 5th, 2006 at 1:37 amRex,
WINPAC didn't come up with that reporting. They were reporting on intelligence they had gotten from other agencies, such as the DIA and also the CIA's Directorate of Operations. Read the SSCI report if you please, it's all in there. Why you are focusing on this, I still cannot understand, as it has nothing to do with the topic at hand. Which might be the only reason you are bringing it up, I guess.
Willy,
Yet it is all of these little lies that are at the base of calling the Bush administration a bunch of liars. If Rumsfeld really was a liar, why would there be a need to make up lies? Doesn't make sense, does it? As I said on my blog, I believe Rumsfeld probably has lied at some point about Iraq or al Qaeda, but he sure as hell didn't here. As for Cheney and Bush, I still have not seen any solid evidence showing that they lied about Iraq or al Qaeda.
Meanwhile, sites like Think Progress will keep making up "lies" to reinforce the opinion they have built in your mind with even more such "lies".
The fact that no one on here even wants to go near the facts I have brought up shows you how dishonest this enterprise is, and that once exposed, the whole "Bush lied" canard will fall into pieces.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:38 amNeo-con puppet master gets beat up baddddd.
http://prisonplanet.com/articles/april2006/290406Colbert.htm
Most people still do not know what a Neocon is or where we are
headed.
Neocons
"Neocons" believe that the United States should not be ashamed to use
its unrivaled power – forcefully if necessary – to promote its values
around the world. Some even speak of the need to cultivate a US
empire.
Neocons believe that the US has allowed dangers to gather by not
spending enough on defense and not confronting threats aggressively
enough.
Most neocons share unwavering support for Israel. Most neocons are
Jews including Bush. All of the neocons in the PNAC group are Jews.
Some, like Bush, hide as Christians, and most have duel citizenship
with Israel. Most all neocons put the Jews first over the good of
America's interest.
The original neocons were a small group of mostly Jewish liberal
May 5th, 2006 at 1:38 amintellectuals who, in the 1960s and 70s, grew disenchanted with what
they saw as the American left's social excesses and reluctance to
spend adequately on defense.
Do not fret for Seixon > he gets paid to post on TP by Karl Rove! Hard work defending the criminal Bush Regime and getting called names by everyone who opposes Dubya Dunce Decider on here! Keep after him > he might decide it's not worth the heartburn for the pay!
May 5th, 2006 at 1:41 amBecause Mr. Cepan seems to care so much about his country - I think he should take in a few of our DU sick GIs as they come back from war. He can explain to them in some kind of FOX NEWS or RUSH-speak how their ailments are purely psychological...
May 5th, 2006 at 1:42 amcliff: Hold it right there. What's this nonsense about most neocons being Jews? Granted, most of the PNAC cabal are, but just what are you insinuating?
And please never, ever, ever suggest that Bush is a Jew again. The idea that I could share a heritage with the man.....
May 5th, 2006 at 1:43 amcliff,
Actually, I don't approve of the job Bush is doing. But thanks anyways.
Marbles,
I will gladly admit the existence of PNAC. The group's vision for America is often misrepresented by the Think Progress crowd for obvious reasons.
And a private meeting doesn't mean that the press isn't invited. For all we know, the video that CNN got a hold of was a privately taken video. In any case, I am almost sure that it was at a private venue, thus they can throw anyone out that they please. You'll notice, though, that Rumsfeld told them to let McGovern stay. Unbelievable if you take the view of some of the people on here.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:43 amcliff,
Oh, Prison Planet, classy. Yep, the Jews rule the world and are going to kill everyone. Zzzzzzz....
Jay,
Yeah buddy, keep smearing me instead of addressing what I brought up. Good boy. Rove couldn't pay me enough to deal with brainless people such as you. I do it out of pity and because I want to educate people, to rid them of the brainwashing that sites like Think Progress induce daily.
Marbles,
Look, cliff and most of the others here are brainwashed with a bunch of nonsense. Bush is a Jew? LOL. That's precious.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:48 amI can't prove bush is a Jew, nor do I want too. And Jews are not inherently evil or bad, but when any group like the neo-cons who use their Jewishness to destroy in the name of empire building....look out.
http://www.texemarrs.com/george_w_bush_zionist_double_agent.htm
May 5th, 2006 at 1:49 amPost 405 > Do not worry the Bush family are NOT Jewish! The original spelling of their name is Busch like the Bavarian Beer company! They are of German ancestry, so another reason why Adolf Hitler did business with Prescott Bush, George Junior's grandfather! Never thought another Germanic man would become another crazy despot like the Fuhrer, but hello it has happened! Beware of Dubya because he is actually not a friend of Israel!
May 5th, 2006 at 1:52 amSeixon: It's not just admitting PNAC exists. It's acknowledging particular verbatim quotes, and putting them into the context of what the group wanted done, the inconsistencies in their justifications, the zillions of things they've said that don't add up....
Look. I wouldn't have believed it either. Until fairly recently, in fact. But once you start actually looking at this stuff, you can't look away again. For example, do you the head of the Pakistani Intelligence wiring Mohammed Atta $100,000 in late 2001, shortly before coming to America to meet with George Tenet and the head of the Senate Intelligence Committee? About the security at the WTC in 2001 being controlled by a company headed by Marvin Bush, brother of George?
May 5th, 2006 at 1:52 amThat is the tip of the tip of the tip of the tip of a huge glacier. I could go on for days, or direct you to more coherent sources than myself.
May 5th, 2006 at 1:54 amLOL Seixon it's you who are brainwashed on here! Only pure fools or paid fools defend the vile Bush Regime on here! If you are just a fool, not paid, then give it up because nobody will be swayed by your petty arguments!
May 5th, 2006 at 1:56 amcliff: I'm sorry, but if you go around saying things like Bush is a Jew but I can't prove it, based solely on the fact that he seems to be in the pocket of the Israeli right-wing, what choice do I have but to assume that you're basing that on the idea of Jewish loyalty being the foundation of all these horrible policies? Basically, it sounds like you're saying that the only reason someone would be in the Israeli right's pocket is because they're Jewish themselves, and that just sounds flat-out xenophobic. And that's coming from me, who is fed up with the silence in this country on the excesses of the Israeli army and on the power held by the collective "Israeli lobby" in America. Please be aware that what you're saying sounds anti-Semetic, and I am the last person on earth who wants to go around throwing that label casually.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:01 am[...] Here is an example from todays forum with Secretary of Defense Don Rumsfeld. Had Rumsfeld not interceded, former CIA agent Ray McGovern would have been forcibly removed from the forum.  It comes across to me as rather thugish for our government to prevent people from legitimately question what our government is doing. I would expect this kind of thing from a NAZI regime or had this happened in some banana republic. Our government should be accountable to the people. After listening to the exchange between Rumsfeld and McGovern I would not call it heckling but for some reason it seems the press is uncomfortable with individual citizens doing the job they seem to squeemish to take on. Stenographers do not need freedom of the press. [...]
May 5th, 2006 at 2:01 ambackwash,
you don't get it. as long as you are here, denying the failure and the prevarications that created it, you will be referred to as backwash. as long as you want to try to prop up little 'facts' that belie the reality that iraq was a colossal foreign policy disaster and has, yes, created a new terrorist training ground and has been a contributor to rising oil prices, you will be backwash. as long as you want to conveniently ignore truths like how cheney lied in repeating "we found the mobile weapons labs" claim nearly a year after they had been thoroughly proven not to be weapons labs, you will be backwash.
must be getting lonely with all the whackjobs and fundies, backwash. it's a shame, because otherwise you almost seem like you have the capability to reason. what i don't get is how you want to defend rumsfeld even though he is the infamous source of the 'greet us as liberators' nonsense, the wildly off-the-mark estimates for the cost of the war, and the failed war plan itself.
personally, i expect more from our leaders. you, however, seem to be content in defending incompetence. it doesn't reflect well on you in the least.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:02 amMost of us know where the Democrats stand. And most of us
know where all of the politicians stand. But if you think
the Bush family is here to help this sick country, please
think again and give me 20 minutes of your time. I have
researched this topic over 3 years ago and now there is
a video on the topic.
http://www.infowars.com/video/previews/martial_law/ml_bushnazi_qtbb.htm
May 5th, 2006 at 2:06 amThere are more people aware of whats wrong and are becoming more and more pissed by the minute in this computer age. It will make the sixties, look like a family picnic. i know. i was there. If there were mass protest then without the net. Imagine what it will be like this time.
It will be a site to behold. when we finally leave our computers and began to really hit the street. hit the media. Kick organized crime out of our government.
Ther is nothing more dangerous than fedup liberals. After all, liberals won our freedom, the revolutionary war. We will take it back from these red coat traitors.
Who did we fight against? People like these macho neo-cons, such as cepan. People who think the constitution is nothing more than "a dam piece of paper" They were fools and suckers than and they still are. REMEMBER, they have never been right. They must be natural suckers. They are the suckers of all suckers.
Proof, It's 2006, bush and his cronies have been caught in all types of lies and corruption. caused 10s of 1000 lives, billions of dollars, about to attack another country, cut the benefits of vets and future vets. Yes, Rumblower looking like a deer in head lights. Still, these chumps, such as cepan, are still saying the same stupid sh** they were saying pre Irag war.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:09 amPost 418 Ryan > Yes chemical weapons have a shelf life, so the CIA knew exactly when those weapons Saddam was given or sold expired! Reason why Rummy and others referred to war on Iraq as a cakewalk > they knew Saddam was basically defenseless!
May 5th, 2006 at 2:10 amcliff: I've almost lost hope for the Democrats. They make me think of an articulate, thoughtful old man whose doctor has been pumping him so full of drugs that he can't even remember how to tie his shoes anymore.
When I see conservatives complaining about how the Democrats make life so difficult, I can't believe we're talking about the same party.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:11 am#82 versus THOUSANDS of Americans and tens of thousands of innocent Iraquis???
May 5th, 2006 at 2:15 amlugnut: I would pay through the nose to wake up in your future. I wish I was as optimistic as you. It just feels like NOTHING sticks to these guys. Bush's ratings may now finally be falling, but I compare it to a mile-wide meteor crashing into the ground and leaving a three-foot wide crater. It's taken THIS long, and THIS many fiascos, for about 20% of the polled population to get at least a little uneasy. Ooog.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:15 amSo name calling is the level the Republican apologists have fallen to (is that uh 5 year-old or six year old behavior?) while their leaders destroy our democracy and our economy!
May 5th, 2006 at 2:25 amI heard or i read, that less than 20% of the people faught the revolutionary war.
Less than 5% of black people participated in the civil rights movement.
20% is a huge number of people. About one half of one percent of the american people are in the entire military. 20% IS 60 MILLION PEOPLE. NEARLY ALL ADULTS.
A certain percentage, most time the majority of the population never participate no matter what. They remain forever disconnected. In other words, they don't know what the hell is going on. They are irrelevent to either side.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:39 amYou're right, 20% is a lot, but I'd feel better if I knew just how much those 60 million people have grown to distrust this administration. I have a feeling it's more along the lines of "Well, we were right to go into Iraq, but perhaps things haven't gone as well as we'd hoped. Maybe we should consider other options." As opposed to "How could I have been so blind?!!" But ya take what ya can get. And we need plenty of that.
May 5th, 2006 at 2:50 amMost polls are done on those who are registered to vote, which is only about a third of the adult population! That represents about 30 to 40 million people, so if 32% of them supports Bush, then about 12 million fools in America > lol.
May 5th, 2006 at 3:00 amWhy don't all you AssClowns just go to bed:Especially you Jay Randal,AssClown.
May 5th, 2006 at 3:01 amE-coli your doctor called and said you need a higher dosage of Thorizine > lol. Go to bed yourself before you make a bigger fool of yourself on here!
May 5th, 2006 at 3:08 amWhat crawled up your ass?AssClown.
May 5th, 2006 at 3:29 amClean that keyboard before bed.
Ryan,
OK, just to show how incredibly lame you are, here's what you said:
And yet you do it for free? Wow, you say the STUPIDEST things, all the while SMEARING sites like Think Progress. Get a life FAT STUPID BOY, and get a girlfriend. You’re such a BORING LOSER Zzzz…
I'm smearing Think Progress? Uh, while you say I am fat, stupid, boring, a loser, and that I need to get a girlfriend. Wow. Hypocrisy has found a new knight. And another stupid comment:
Really? If you invite the press, it’s not private you IDIOTIC DUMBASS.
Oh, so I can't invite the press into my private property? LOL. I could invite the press into my property, then kick them out if I wanted to. Poor little Ryan can only see in black and white.
Seixon/Stupidone believes that the CIA trusted Sabri, even though he was paid 100K and free passage to Egypt - even though the testimony came through a THIRD PARTY for generalized information that couldn’t be verified.
Why would they pay him $100K, whisk him off to Egypt, and leave him out of the deck of cards if they didn't trust him? LOL. Do you even think, at all? George Tenet even referenced Sabri's information in a speech February 2004.
Oh, and chemical weapons do not have the type of shelf life you are pretending. The UN found about a dozen warheads filled with a total of 49 liters of mustard gas in February 2003. Guess what, it was 97% pure. It was produced over a decade earlier. Doh! Looks like you've been foiled by facts again. Those are pesky, they pop out at you everywhere!
Jay,
LOL Seixon it’s you who are brainwashed on here! Only pure fools or paid fools defend the vile Bush Regime on here! If you are just a fool, not paid, then give it up because nobody will be swayed by your petty arguments!
Yeah, I mean, it's typical for brainwashed people to throw themselves into places where everyone is against them. Yup, quite typical behavior of brainwashed people. Oh wait... No, I'm just hearing this reported, brainwashed people love to hang around with people who say the exact same things they do... kind of like all of you! Wow, what a revelation! Of course no one is swayed by anything I say here, that's because you are all brainwashed. I don't even need to say it anymore, you just prove it every time you start using your keyboard.
All you guys do is call me a bunch of names, like a Nazi, and ignore what I said completely or throw up dust with a bunch of nonsense and tangents. You've all got to be embarrassed about your conduct here. Either that or you are all a bunch of lame teenagers who haven't got a clue about anything. If you are, please let me know, and I will stop wasting my time.
May 5th, 2006 at 3:44 amCome you masters of war
You that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks
You that never done nothin'
But build to destroy
You play with my world
Like it's your little toy
You put a gun in my hand
And you hide from my eyes
And you turn and run farther
When the fast bullets fly
Like Judas of old
You lie and deceive
A world war can be won
You want me to believe
But I see through your eyes
And I see through your brain
Like I see through the water
That runs down my drain
You fasten the triggers
For the others to fire
Then you set back and watch
When the death count gets higher
You hide in your mansion
As young people's blood
Flows out of their bodies
And is buried in the mud
You've thrown the worst fear
That can ever be hurled
Fear to bring children
Into the world
For threatening my baby
Unborn and unnamed
You ain't worth the blood
That runs in your veins
How much do I know
To talk out of turn
You might say that I'm young
You might say I'm unlearned
But there's one thing I know
Though I'm younger than you
Even Jesus would never
Forgive what you do
Let me ask you one question
Is your money that good
Will it buy you forgiveness
Do you think that it could
I think you will find
When your death takes its toll
All the money you made
Will never buy back your soul
And I hope that you die
May 5th, 2006 at 3:55 amAnd your death'll come soon
I will follow your casket
In the pale afternoon
And I'll watch while you're lowered
Down to your deathbed
And I'll stand o'er your grave
'Til I'm sure that you're dead
Watch and blog while your democracy slips from your fiingers.
Our government is EVIL!
Our way of life is EVIL!
We are the enemy!
May 5th, 2006 at 3:59 amOur abuse of this planet will come back to our children.
They will blame us ALL.
ALL
ALL
ALL
May 5th, 2006 at 4:02 amI didn't have the time to read all of the comments, so maybe someone said it before: This video has hit a nerve with the supporters of Bush, this is what makes them so vehement here. It is so evident that this administration is badly tangled up in the politics it is responsible for, that their next step will most certainly be keeping you guys from asking questions. They simply don't have the answers anymore. On the other hand, why should they? Democracy is not their strong suit. Kleptocracy of the chosen few seems more like their thing.
May 5th, 2006 at 4:20 amhttp://tinyurl.com/a6erq
^^ Help Impeach
May 5th, 2006 at 4:45 amThank you site is up: http://www.thankyouraymcgovern.org/
May 5th, 2006 at 4:47 amIt's obvious that the American administration is under orders from their masters - the owners of the Federal Reserve and most other central banks - the people who conned us into believing that the debt instruments we use are actually money! With hundreds of trillions of dollars in their pockets, the only thing they are after is ... strangely ... more money!!! War creates accellorated debt and gives them more leverage over politics, which they are clearly demonstrating here - putting idiots into power and making a mockery of us all as we hang on every word that's said about interest rates, money supply, etc - while they force war and famine and industry on us, with the obvious express desire to kill us all and preserve their master race!
May 5th, 2006 at 4:59 amRay McGovern demonstrated for media people everywhere just how it's done. McGovern's been yelling from the rooftops for three years about the administration's lies and trumped-up war. He appeared in at least one of Greenwald's DVD documentaries with a dead-on critique of Powell's UN speech. He participated in Conyer's unofficial hearings on the Downing Street Memo, and, speaks truth at every oppoortunity. Why don't the media types have the temerity to confront these war mongers and incompetents with the same kind of incisive questions to their faces that McGovern asked? How many times did Russert have that opportunity? Why did it take so long for 58,000,000 Bush voters to finally begin to see through these guys? But they were too preoccupied with administration fear-mongering, gay marriage and making sure that Christianity is the national religion.
May 5th, 2006 at 5:10 amHans Blix also lied, so did Russian and French intelligence. Russian intelligence warned the US that Iraq would leak WMDs to terrorists.
May 5th, 2006 at 5:17 amWhereas most of the major intelligence agencies thought Iraq had WMDs, David Kelly (the UK weapons expert who commited suicide) believed that there was only a 30% chance that Iraq had large stockpils of WMDs. But he thought that even a 30% chance that Saddam had them was enough to justify the Iraq war.
May 5th, 2006 at 5:22 amThank you Ray McGovern!!! We need more of this type of questioning and answers from our leaders. They are truly liars as proven by Ray.
May 5th, 2006 at 5:40 ami'm one of the 32% ... we don't care what are leaders do as long as they protect us. . them peole should control the media better so incidents like this can't be shown to the public. we don't care if they lie ...cheat ..whatever needs to be done.
May 5th, 2006 at 6:59 amthey need to make as much money as they can so they can protect us!!! i'll pay as much as they want at the gas pumps. whats a litte lie now and then?
repulican forever!!!!
'Reckless unaccountability'
May 5th, 2006 at 7:32 amBishCo = LIARS
May 5th, 2006 at 7:42 amas long as we go to church on sunday it's ok . all we got to do is pray ... lets all pray for our president ...donald rumsfeld , dick cheney .
May 5th, 2006 at 7:48 amAn old one for this Cepan chap:
Republican (Sung to Kama Chameleon; Coincidentaly originally sung by a Boy named George)
National hatred fills your eyes all the day
And you listen to the lies you heard them say
Left’s a man without conviction
A woman who doesn’t know
The place granted by her condition
They come and go
They come and go
Repub Repub Repub Repub Republican
The lies they told
The lies they told
The truth isn’t something they want to be said
White blue and red
White blue and red
Didn’t hear their wicked words every day
The power of Congress is so quaint you heard them say
Rule of law is on their condition
The right to privacy is should be gone
The constitution has been around too long
You’ll sing along
You’ll sing along
Repub Repub Repub Repub Republican
The lies they told
The lies they told
The truth isn’t something they want to be said
White blue and red
White blue and red
As every day becomes survival
May 5th, 2006 at 8:04 amAgainst an enemy and a rival
As every day becomes survival
Against an enemy and a rival
Left’s a man without conviction
A woman who doesn’t know
The place granted by her condition
They come and go
They come and go
HA HA HA that cia agent should be considred a saint ha ha. Now finally the NEW WORLD ORDER is getting smashed. If you know somethin SPEAK UP people. Exercise your 1st amendment and follow what the constitution says"question your goverment...".
911/truth
PLEASE VISIT:
loosechange911.com
Then go to google video and type in loose change and watch the second edition video.
Dedicated to 911 families. Investigate SKULL AND BONES and THE FREEMASONS.
GOD BLESS AMERICA!
May 5th, 2006 at 8:22 amHe also lied when he said he isn't in the intelligence business. What exactly does the Defense Intelligence Agency do?
May 5th, 2006 at 8:25 amBoy the Bush Loving trolls like Seixon on here are very upset about Rumsfeld being exposed as a liar > lol. They are very desperate to undermine the posters on this thread, but it is NOT working out for them! Defending Rummy is a lost cause! He must resign his position ASAP!
May 5th, 2006 at 8:31 amWe have to continue to challenge these thugs who have done so much damage to our country, now we have to keep them on the ropes. Let's fight back now. They are damaging our way of life and our reputation around the world.
May 5th, 2006 at 8:41 amAnyone read CNN's version of events? Ridiculous. Nowhere in the story does it point out that McGovern actually caught Rumsfeld in a lie. Instead it uses phrases like:
When security guards tried removing McGovern, the analyst, during his persistent questioning of Rumsfeld, the defense secretary told them to let him stay. The two continued to spar.
"You're getting plenty of play," Rumsfeld told McGovern, who is an outspoken critic of the war in Iraq.
Responding to another protester who also accused Rumsfeld of lying, the secretary said such accusations are "so wrong, so unfair and so destructive."
Those mean old protesters...Rummy sure is nice to let the guy stay, ain't he?
He also said, "We need ways to make sure we're better understood in the world than we are."
Yup, I agree. But most of us don't think you and the rest of the Bush administration is the group that should be speaking to the world.
May 5th, 2006 at 8:57 amWay back before all this started the Bush admin had multiple members talk abotu the certainty with which they knew that Iraq had WMD. They mentioned where they were and occasionally people might mention what and where they were. For instance the president talked about a weapons lab in north east Iraq at one point. So overall the administration was discussing that they knew how much and where all the time.
Back then there was no talk of surgical strikes to remove these weapons that they knew where they were. Now with Iran they want to bomb. Could they not have offered up the bombing cmapaign way back in 2002/2003? It would have bene cheaper both financially and politically. Of course I know the answer to why we didn't do that and it all is revolving around the PNAC control of government policy.
May 5th, 2006 at 9:03 amThis comment is for #79, welcome to the light, you took off your blinders. I hope more see the light. thank you
May 5th, 2006 at 9:09 amNo sane person, given the statements by world leaders, the UN, Democrats, Saddam Hussein and Iraqi internal documents, can doubt that Iraq had WMD. The problem involves people like Jay Rockefeller who went over shortly before the war and told Syria, Iraq, et al. that we were coming, giving the opportunity for the WMD to be moved to Syria. They had them, we knew where they were, but they were moved.
May 5th, 2006 at 9:21 amWhat is even more amusing about the limited and pathetic minds of people like Exley, Cepan, and Aphrodite is that they don't even realize that their so-called "heroes" (the neo-cons) who were the architects of the most recently failed American foreign policy began as Troskyites. Ledeen, Feith, and their ilk in the 60's were radicals who believed that the doctrines of Lenin and Trotsky (anything which is good for the revolution is good for the revolution....) were the most expedient ways to re-arrange the world order.
In fact, they have put these tactics to use perfectly. Using Christianity as a prop to hoodwink the ignorant majority of Americans is a page right out of the propagandist's playbook.
Who are the real commies, morons?
And so---if your so-called moral ideology includes the Machiavellian principle of "ends justifying the means", then I am your bitter enemy no matter what label you choose to pin on me.
One more thing: THE BUSH FAMILY AND CHENEY (THROUGH HALLIBURTON) ARE HEROIN DEALERS.
And they always have been.
You have to fund black operations somehow.
You could learn a lot from the Mafia----gee, the Taliban had succeeded in destroying the Afghani heroin trade by 2000. All of a sudden the heroin is "out of control" again---"We just can't stop it---oh no!" Hilarious!
The US government loves heroin and the CIA controls the world drug trade as it has done since the 50's.
You get your political and historical knowledge from crackerjack boxes and billionaires whose interests are directly affected by what they allow to be printed in their media outlets.
I see no difference between you and the Islamic theocrat who would see us all hang.
May 5th, 2006 at 9:41 amSo name calling is the level the Republican apologists have fallen to (is that uh 5 year-old or six year old behavior?) while their leaders destroy our democracy and our economy!
Comment by Mark
fallen to? they've been there for over 5 years now that i recall. but who can blame them? they're just following their manipulative america-and americans-last leader and his minions and handlers who want it that way and are in deep denial that their instincts betrayed them so deeply. but that's okay...the good news is that 1.) we see through them now, 2.) we don't have to stand for it, and 3.) we are in the great majority. we can take back our country. they can't take back their pride or reinflate their egos.
May 5th, 2006 at 9:43 amThe comedian(?)Colbert was trying to awaken a lethargic, braindead, pacified and fearful media from its slumber at the presidential dinner the day before this event. Almost everyone missed that point. What he said was so true it apparently wasn't that funny noted by the minimal laughter. Now, we have another patriot trying to awaken the same kind of public. Its interesting to me none have noted that after he was asked why Rumsfeld said there was WMDs when there really wasn't Rumsfeld responded by saying to effect, "well then why were our soldiers wearing chem suits?" See the non-thought-out response? Logic it seems is lost on us. Our tendency is to swallow the bait hook, line and sinker and then compain about it later when we start to feel the hook. In reality we should have paid attention to what we were swallowing in the first place. Thank goodness there are patriotic comedians and patriotic former CIA to awaken a truly, sleeping giant.
May 5th, 2006 at 9:51 amHere's a thought... the next time someone asks Rummy about the blatant and now obvious lies told by EVERYONE (including St. Colin Powell) in this miserable, sorry assed excuse for an administration, the obvious follow-up question should be "If you jackasses were so certain about these "known" sites and knowing ya'lls penchant for stage managed photo-ops (versus REAL leadership!!!), then why weren't every single one of you (Shrub, Shooter, Condi, etc....) all out there in chem/bio suits having your mugs taped for the six o'clock news?? Imagine that, you all could have been there on the spot, grinnin' from ear to ear and thumbing your collective noses at all of us traitorous, unpatriotic doubters. Now that would have been the ultimate photo-op, don't ya think? To be able to rub all of our "leftie" noses in it, that would have been priceless, wouldn't it?" Well we all know WHY that didn't happen. Because you and the entire Bushista regime KNEW you bullshitting about Saddams' WMD's, but you didn't really care you PNAC fascist!!! And the troops only believed there were WMD's because you and the criminal cabal (see: EVERYONE IN THE BUSH CRIME SYNDICATE) lied to them as well! I hope when this is all said and done that we can take every single one of you (after your convictions before the International Criminal Court) and lock your genocidal asses up in one of those "black site" gulags you all seem to love so much!
May 5th, 2006 at 9:58 am911 WAS AN INSIDE JOB!
WAKE THE HELL UP BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE!
May 5th, 2006 at 9:59 am#455
Try getting your information from somewhere other than corporate media.
The amount of documentation showing that Hussein's WMD program (given to him in part by our government) had been dismantled, shunted, or otherwise put out of commission would fill a warehouse.
The Isrealis bombed the Iraqi nuclear reactor in '83, and one of Saddam's chief WMD engineers (a Brit named Gerard Bull) was killed by Mossad in Brussels in the late '80's. Ritter and Blix et al could not find what they were hired to find----whether or not the WMD's (again I stress, the ones given to Saddam by the US) were shuttled elsewhere is irrelevant. The bottom line is THEY WERE NO LONGER THERE.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:06 amPowell himself has publicly stated that he deeply regrets having given that presentation of pure bullsh*t to the UN, because even he knew the evidence was spurious.
you know what's really funny?
1. Patrick Kennedy's little fender bender has given MSM something new to salivate over and will overshadow this story.
2. But but...Rummy says Zarqawi, the machine-gun bumbling fool in new balance sneakers, was in Iraq!!! Yes!!! That was reason enough to attack a sovereign nation even if there were no WMDs. We apparently are very afraid of the sneakers.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:09 am#455 Matt sez....."No sane person,......"
Actually no sane person would have believed the line of crap that IRANIAN spy Ahmed Chalabi was feeding them. What does that say for Rumsfeld?
May 5th, 2006 at 10:19 amKaren KWIATKOSKI, Ray MCGOVERN, Ron PAUL...these are the real American leaders and heroes. And yes...okay...among the media, it appears that The Comedy Channel may just have the best, bravest, and most ethical news shows on the air. How ironic is that, people?
The media is afraid of BushCo. They are utterly controlled. Not interested in truth. Do not count on them. If anything watch what they say to tell you something else is going on that they are trying to overshadow, then look and dig elsewhere for your news. Battle of Baghdad, during which we were brutally and ruthlessly attacked, = Jessica Lynch. Patrick Tillman? Ask yourself what was happening at the same time.
Getting ready to nuke Iran? Let's get our masses in a frenzy about ports and immigration (and yes...some blonde who went "missing" a year ago...*rolls eyes). You know...ports and immigration...those things that we already have laws for but are not enforcing and bypassing? Those things that common sense would have handled years ago. Shocked that you're so vulnerable, America. Please.
And BushCo is not doing this to preserve national security or to protect anyone but themselves and their nefarious and selfish plans. Don't kid yourselves for a single moment.
Oh and if Israel is not involved, why is it that every other word out of Iran is Israel and why is our administration and our media so afraid of the AIPAC spy trial?
There's a lot going on, people...open those eyes and THINK. It's American.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:20 amIm not a democrat, but nice try. Im a sick to my guts republican who has left this evil twisted group of neo-con criminals that resemble nothing of the conservative party.
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May 5th, 2006 at 10:20 amGod-given, unalienable, Constitutionally protected and guaranteed
rights."
Act without the UN??? Surely we wouldn't do that?! *gasp
From Dennis Kucinich, Who States That US Is Prepared To Act With or Without The UN
Washington, May 2 -
Despite numerous public reports stating that US troops are currently conducting operations within Iran, the United States Ambassador to the United Nations (UN) refused to answer repeated questions by Congressman Dennis J. Kucinich (D-OH) about US troops in Iran, today at a House Government Reform Subcommittee on National Security, Emerging Threats and International Relations.
Kucinich, the Ranking Member on the Subcommittee, repeatedly questioned Ambassador Bolton on the effect that US troops operating within Iran will have on diplomatic negotiations already underway, including those at the UN.
Recently, Seymour Hersh reported in The New Yorker magazine that US troops are already operating in Iran. Air Force Col. Sam Gardiner (Ret.) has made similar statements on CNN. In addition, Vincent Cannistraro, a former CIA counter-terrorism chief, told the Guardian newspaper that special forces are operating within Iran identifying targets and aiding dissident groups.
While Ambassador Bolton refused to answer questions about US troops in Iran, Ambassador Bolton did state that the US was prepared to move against Iran, with or without the UN Security Council.
I find it hard to believe that the United States Ambassador to the United Nations does not know about ongoing military activity in one of the worlds most volatile regions, and in a country at the heart of current debate before the UN, stated Kucinich after the hearing. Congress has a Constitutional role to play in providing checks and balances of this Administration. Ambassadors Bolton testimony today, and his refusal to answer even the most basic questions about Iran, is just another example of this Administrations contempt of Congress.
This Administration has set our nation on the path to war against Iran, continued Kucinich. It has done so without consulting the Congress, and without proper Congressional oversight. Todays hearing could have been an important moment to educate the public and the Congress about this Administrations policy towards Iran, and the role US military is already playing in implementing that policy. Unfortunately, Ambassador Boltons stonewalling prevent this from happening.
This Administration has set our nation on a very dangerous path with Iran. Congress must intervene before this Administration begins a wider, and far more dangerous war in the Middle East, concluded Kucinich.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:21 amWell Rumsfeld acknowledged and let his hecklers stay unlike Pelosi and Clinton. I am still waitning on the UN to acknowledge why they lied too...
#455
Try getting your information from somewhere other than corporate media.
The amount of documentation showing that Hussein’s WMD program (given to him in part by our government) had been dismantled, shunted, or otherwise put out of commission would fill a warehouse.
Yeah well Hussein had food from the UN and their oil for food program to fill quite a few warehouses....
I want clinton's apology too.....
http://www.cnn.com/ALLPOLITICS/1998/02/17/transcripts/clinton.iraq/
And the UN
May 5th, 2006 at 10:43 amSomeone above mentioned the documentary "Loose Change". Be careful. While the film makes many very good points, it falls into the trap of mixing in valid points with wild speculation based on sloppy research (the "no plane at the Pentagon" theory has too much evidence against it, although I cannot explain why the FBI confiscated all existing video of the crash within minutes of it happening---and this is true. Look it up.). However, I implore you, no matter who you are, to spend a day off exploring 911truth.org. From what I can tell they are the most careful, meticulous, and thorough of the 9/11 researchers.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:45 amOnce you start looking at the evidence that 9/11 was at least partially an inside job, you will never be able to go back to where you were. I'm not saying you'll suddenly support gay rights and higher taxes. This is not about Democrats and Republicans. Just drop all that. This is about taking a long, hard look at what we were told, and how it just does not add up. Not only that, there is a mountain of background information that paints a very clear picture of a motive for setting up 9/11. Don't think I arrived at this conclusion lightly. I have never trusted this administration, but until recently I would have said that anyone who thinks our government knew about or planned 9/11 was a loony who was letting their paranoia and Bush-hatred make them look like total idiots and dragging down legitimate criticism of the administration. I realize the enormity of this charge. Of course it's unbelievable. Of course it's beyond imagining. How else do you think they'd get away with it? No one would go there. They counted on that. But I repeat. Once you start looking, you're set. You can't forget what you've read. There's too much.
These drug-dealing oil-guzzling thugs have been itching for war with Iran since '53 when the CIA overthrew Mossadegh and installed the Shah and built his brutal internal Gestapo.
May 5th, 2006 at 10:45 amOf course, that didn't stop them from making dirty deals to steal the Reagan/Carter election and promising arms and money to the Islamo-fascists throughout the 80's. By the way, for all of you Israeli-philes, Menachem Begin's government gave arms to the Iranians in the 80's, too.
Yes, that's right, ISRAEL helped faciliate arms to Iran during Iran's war with Iraq. The enemy of my enemy is my friend.
What a joke.
Reap as you sow.
Blowback awaits.
#455 comment by Matt
Many, many sane people of all political types not only doubt but actually have some confidence that Iraq didn't possess WMD prior to the 2003 American invasion. Read Charles Duelfer's 1,000 page final report **from the Bush Administration** categorically stating no WMDs existed in Iraq. Note that the report also states that no WMDs were transferred to Syria or Iran. I think that it wasn't so much Rockefeller telling Saddam that the U.S. invasion was coming as Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld/Rice telling him and the 150,000 troops camped out on the Iraqi border.
David Kay (1st chief of the U.S. inspectors post-war) said:
...For all his many accomplishments in a long and distinguished career, David A. Kay will probably be remembered for one memorable phrase uttered before a Senate committee in January: "It turns out we were all wrong."
..."The defectors wanted to get rid of Saddam because of the hardship and suffering he had imposed on his people. The U.S. wanted Saddam gone because of his suspected weapons programs. The defectors knew this, so they told us tales of WMD to move the U.S. toward their objective of eliminating Saddam."
"We bought the lies. And now we have to understand why we were so gullible."
http://pubs.acs.org/cen/coverstory/8231/8231kay.html
**************************************************
Washington Post/Duelfer 1,000 page final report on WMD said:
...Duelfer's report is the first U.S. intelligence assessment to state flatly that Iraq had secretly destroyed its biological weapons stocks in the early 1990s. By 1995, though, and under U.N. pressure, it abandoned its efforts.
The document rules out the possibility that biological weapons might have been hidden, or perhaps smuggled into another country, and it finds no evidence of secret biological laboratories or ongoing research that could be firmly linked to a weapons program.
...Duelfer's report said that no chemical weapons existed and that there is no evidence of attempts to make such weapons over the past 12 years. Iraq retained dual-use equipment that could be used for such an effort.
...One of the reasons the intelligence community feared a chemical weapons arsenal was that U.N. inspectors said Iraq had not fully explained missing chemical agents during the 1990s. The report determined that unanswered questions were almost certainly the result of poor accounting.
Iraq's responses to U.N. inspectors regarding chemical weapons appear to have been truthful, and where incomplete, with differing recollections among former top officials, mostly the result of fading memories of when or how stockpiles were destroyed. Those were the identical reasons Iraq offered to U.N. inspectors before the war.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ac2/wp-dyn/A12115-2004Oct6?language=printer
May 5th, 2006 at 10:49 am"When I left office, there was a substantial amount of biological and chemical material unaccounted for. That is, at the end of the first Gulf War, we knew what he had. We knew what was destroyed in all the inspection processes and that was a lot. And then we bombed with the British for four days in 1998. We might have gotten it all; we might have gotten half of it; we might have gotten none of it. But we didn't know. So I thought it was prudent for the president to go to the UN and for the UN to say you got to let these inspectors in, and this time if you don't cooperate the penalty could be regime change, not just continued sanctions."
May 5th, 2006 at 10:54 am--Bill Clinton, July 22, 2003
#472 Joneser.....that's why the UN weapons inspectors were there......to verify those claims
I still don't understand why people continue to make these non-sensical claims when UN weapons inspections were being done
May 5th, 2006 at 11:06 amHeh! I love the fact that all these people are lauding Ray McGovern, a man who even HOWARD DEAN condemned for making anti-Semitic remarks.
"One witness, former intelligence analyst Ray McGovern, told Conyers and other House Democrats that the war was part of an effort to allow the United States and Israel to "dominate that part of the world," a statement Dean also condemned.
"As for any inferences that the United States went to war so Israel could 'dominate' the Middle East or that Israel was in any way behind the horrific September 11th attacks on America, let me say unequivocally that such statements are nothing but vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric," Dean said. "The inferences are destructive and counterproductive, and have taken away from the true purpose of the Judiciary Committee members' meeting," he said. "The entire Democratic Party remains committed to fighting against such bigotry."
So, who you folks with? Dean or Ray McGovern?
May 5th, 2006 at 11:08 am#472 Comment by Joneser
And guess what? The inspectors DID go back into Iraq, with all of the best American intelligence data on alleged WMD, carrying out surprise inspections of hundreds of sites, returning multiple times to reinspect sites, using American U-2 spyplanes with ground-penetrating radar to inspect sites, with hundreds of inspectors on the ground. THEY FOUND NOTHING except some ballistic missiles that were slightly over the maximum permitted range and were in the process of being destroyed. Many countries aroudn the world have more military capability than Saddam did pre-invasion. We patrolled and regularly bombed the northern and southern no-fly zones, depriving Saddam of most military operations in 2/3 of his own country.
What reason was there to go to war? What direct, imminent danger was there to America? And now what position are we in?
May 5th, 2006 at 11:10 amOh, and here is the link:
http://abcnews.go.com/US/print?id=859782
May 5th, 2006 at 11:10 amComment by Marbles — May 5, 2006 @ 10:45 am
You are SO RIGHT! Not so unbelievable if you know what 'FALSE FLAGGING' means!!!!!
May 5th, 2006 at 11:15 amExley, you sad and small-minded individual. (Yes, that's an ad hominem attack---"ye shall know them by their works".) Just because someone criticizes the foreign policy of a particular nation does not preclude a bias.
It's called critical thinking and you should try it some time.
Dean was most likely vote-grabbing at the time. He is, after all, a politician.
I feel sorry for the pathetic fool that cannot understand that the creation of the state of Israel was a GEOPOLITICAL RUSE with imperialist ends, and not some "let's save the poor Jews and give them a homeland" bleeding heart policy.
IN 1967 ISRAEL ATTACKED THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA BY DISGUISING ITS WARPLANES AND BOMBING A NAVAL SHIP CALLED THE USS LIBERTY.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:21 amFACT.
PROVEN.
HISTORY.
DOES IT MAKE ME AN ANTI-SEMITE FOR SAYING IT?
Dean was not "vote-getting." If you had read the article, you would have seen that Dean condemned McGovern's anti-Semitic remarks in June, 2005, after Dean was in place as Chairman of the DNC.
FACT.
PROVEN.
HISTORY.
But hey, look, if you want to champion an anti-Semite that even the Democratic Party disavows, be my guest.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:33 amGod, you're thick.
DEAN IS A POLITICIAN. PERIOD.
HE COULD SAY ANYTHING.
Nice job deflecting the REAL ISSUE---which is that by criticizing Israel's foreign policy, one should not be branded an anti-semite.
I am a Jew, albeit a terrible one, as I find the religion as idiotic as any other power paradigm designed to control people's minds.
BY YOU CALLING MCGOVERN AN ANTI-SEMTIE DOESN'T MAKE IT SO.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:39 amDO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY AT ALL?
Let me hear you defend Israel's killing of 34 Americans by attacking the USS lIberty disguised as someone else, without coming off as an anti-semite by your own narrow definition of the term?
Can you?
Im waiting.
Still waiting.
You are too small for this.
You are out of your league.
God, you're thick.
DEAN IS A POLITICIAN. PERIOD.
HE COULD SAY ANYTHING.
Nice job deflecting the REAL ISSUE---which is that by criticizing Israel's foreign policy, one should not be branded an anti-semite.
I am a Jew, albeit a terrible one, as I find the religion as idiotic as any other power paradigm designed to control people's minds.
BY YOU CALLING MCGOVERN AN ANTI-SEMTIE DOESN'T MAKE IT SO.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:39 amDO YOU HAVE ANY KNOWLEDGE OF HISTORY AT ALL?
Let me hear you defend Israel's killing of 34 Americans by attacking the USS Liberty disguised as someone else, without coming off as an anti-semite by your own narrow definition of the term.
Can you?
Im waiting.
Still waiting.
You are too small for this.
You are out of your league.
Actually, I didn't call McGovern an anti-Semite. It was the chairman of your party, Howard Dean, who condemned his remarks as "a vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric." Read the article again.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:43 amActually, I believe they interchange anti-semite with anti-zionist. they DO NOT mean the same thing.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:45 amYeha they went back in... and they return a report explaining the whole in the inspections... and not to mention Iraqs incomplete report... Why is it our job to prove they had WMD and Iraqs job to prove they didn't... hmm here is a theory... and lord knows i hate them... what if saddam was being an obstructionist because he thought he did have the weapons? Russian scientists would do the same thing to Stalin... Make false report out of fear of their own lives... and again... if we hadn't liberated those people we would never know why france germany, and russia were so against UN resolutions... cause they were getting bribed and making deals in the oil for food
May 5th, 2006 at 11:45 amSchizophrenic NBC
May 5th, 2006 at 11:46 amThe entire exchange with Ray McGovern was replayed on MSNBC's Countdown, from McGovern's well-expressed intoduction through the end, when a moderator saved Rummy's ass by demanding that the next questioner be allowed to speak. At that point Rum was gasping for air...in the interim, he was knocked out and left speechless. Even the audience didn't cheer him or boo McGovern when McGovern called Rum on his lie about Zarqawi being in Baghdad, McGovern saying (paraphrasing) "[Zarqawi] was there in the hospital; the people here aren't that stupid--they all know the story." KO showed all of the relevant transcripts chronicling Rum's old lies, and allowed you to see his new lies.
The shocker is that immediately following, on NBC's msm news with Brian Williams, an entirely different picture of Rum was presented. That presentation ended with the correspondent (Miklashevski?) saying that "Rumsfeld held his own" and showing an edited clip of Rum declaring the Zarqawi was in Baghdad, without the reply by McGovern and the speechless and desperate Rum.
Some may say the msm nightly 30-minute news doesn't have enough time to show the true story: why, then, did NBC's Williams spend most of the time allotted the segment playing the yelling protestors, the same film footage of the same lady twice? Because that's what they want people to think happened: yelling protestors, ho-hum. Brian Williams, who I assume has editorial control of the segments, never even identified McGovern as a 17-year veteran CIA intel agent. The real story was not presented and was purposely distorted.
The measured and serious question/response by McGovern is the equivalent of Colbert's face-off with Bush; it is the equivalent of the Generals' demands for accountability; it is a move up the hierarchical ladder that has Sheehan on the bottom rung: it is serious, it is serious, it is serious, and the msm can't deal with it yet. It is Stage 1: will it be possible to get to Stage 2?
LookInward - Ray McGovern was a CIA analyst for 27 years.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:48 am"But hey, look, if you want to champion an anti-Semite that even the Democratic Party disavows, be my guest."
Exley---you need help. Serious psychological help.
You made this statement no more than five minutes ago and now you deny it.
You should interview for a position in the Bush administration.
That about sums up the mind of the ethically and morally vacuous people that subscribe to no particular ideology, but will do anything necessary to make sure that their view is the dominant one.
Your mentality is exactly what Orwell wrote about.
By the way--you hate America.
Your mindset would be much more at home in North Korea.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:52 am#487, I would suggest you read the article again. It was the chairman of your party Howard Dean who condemned McGovern's comments as "vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric." I'll wait as you read the article.
May 5th, 2006 at 11:55 amHmm... media bias... i wonder how much time we will spend on a Kennedy who almost kills a police officer on "prescription drugs" never mind his checkerd past.... vs Cheney's hunting trip. My guess?! very littie
May 5th, 2006 at 12:02 pmBut hey, look, if you want to champion an anti-Semite that even the Democratic Party disavows, be my guest.
Comment by Exley — May 5, 2006 @ 11:33 am
Is this clear enough?
Did someone else type this?
You are an insane person.
These are your words, right?
But anyway---getting back to the point, which you have succesfully deflected in true Karl Rove fashion---have you ever heard of the USS liberty?
May 5th, 2006 at 12:04 pmBecause my point here is that prior history shows that Israel will stop at no tactic to advance its aims.
So to make an assertion such as McGovern did is not without historical precedent, and therefore it is valid.
I don't happen to agree with it any more than you do.
And by the way---the Democratic party is most certainly not "my party."
I find them to be as traitorous as the other one.
Those are my words referencing what DNC Chairman Howard Dean said. I don't know whether Ray McGovern is an anti-Semite or not. I do know, however, that Howard Dean condemned his remarks as "vile, anti-Semitic rhetoric."
May 5th, 2006 at 12:09 pmexley, it's okay. dean made the same mistake you did...mistaking anti-zionism for anti-semitism. in any case, y'all are both wrong about mcgovern.
May 5th, 2006 at 12:11 pmor maybe they will spend the same amount of time as they did on Sandy "pants" Berger
May 5th, 2006 at 12:15 pm#484 Comment by Joneser
It's our job to inspect and otherwise determine if a less than 100% helpful Saddam had WMD because if we're rational we don't want to:
* go to war unnecessarily,
May 5th, 2006 at 12:15 pm* kill tens of thousands of Iraqis (most innocent, some despicable),
* lose thousands of American soldiers,
* spend hundreds of billions of dollars,
* drastically degrade our military's equipment and morale
* lose credibility with the other friendly and unfriendly nations of the world
* lose respect for ourselves as decent people
Someone mentioned Ray McGovern is a nutcase! What they failed to note was that the information provided by McGovern was deadly accurate, and Rumsfeld was clearly shown to have lied to the American people. In fact, McGovern was a CIA analyst for more than 20 years, and that is something that can be documented.
More to the point, is whether seeking to avoid an unnecessary war qualifies one to be a nutcase. The true nutcase jobs are the ones who sent our young soldiers into a war that didn't need to be fought, emptied our treasury, continues without any exit strategy, and has resulted in thousands of dead Iraqi civilians and American troops.
To date, every excuse given for this war has proven false. It is time Americans recognize who the true nutcases are!
May 5th, 2006 at 12:18 pmHmm… media bias… i wonder how much time we will spend on a Kennedy who almost kills a police officer on “prescription drugs†never mind his checkerd past…. vs Cheney’s hunting trip. My guess?! very littie
Comment by Joneser
woot...there it is. aha! a kennedy scandal!!! yeeeha! watch out! if you mention kennedy again imma haveta bring up bush's awoledness and arrests again. and cocaine use. at least kennedy didn't get arrested, eh? and at least they were prescription drugs, eh? and he didn't shoot anyone while possible intoxicated, eh? but hey...that's okay...you and your msm go ahead and latch on to this like it was oxygen on mars breathing new life into you. this is an irrelevant item. to keep you distracted while more important things are going on. we need a new diversion to keep you ignorants and easily swayed just that. ignorant. damn...how blind can people get?
May 5th, 2006 at 12:19 pm