Former CIA Deputy Director: Civil Liberties Are ‘Powerful Antidote to Violent Extremism’
Former CIA Deputy Director: Civil Liberties Are ‘Powerful Antidote to Violent Extremism’
Confirmation hearings for Gen. Michael Hayden to be CIA Director are sure to renew the debate over President Bush’s warrantless domestic surveillance and the balance between civil liberties and national security.
Prominent conservatives working to stifle oversight of the program, including Sens. Pat Roberts (R-KS) and John Cornyn (R-TX), have taken to repeating the line that civil liberties don’t matter much “after you’re dead.” Even Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice warned this past February that “terrorists and criminals…would exploit our open society to do us harm.”
John Gannon, former CIA Deputy Director for Intelligence, has a different view. In testimony last week to the Senate Judiciary Committee, Gannon said that Americans’ Constitutional freedoms “work against the development of domestic terrorist networks that could be exploited by foreigners.” In an email published today to the Federation of American Scientists’ Secrecy News, he offered some more thoughts:
Americans have unparalleled Constitutional and legal protections to express grievances and to openly criticize government at all levels. … It means that the terrorists or other extremists would find less fertile ground to build networks in the US because local support would be harder to come by and because local opposition would be more certain.
In this sense, our liberties are a powerful antidote to violent extremism.
This is not an academic point for me. It is an observation from a career of watching the domestic consequences of repressive regimes elsewhere in the world–including US-friendly Islamic governments such as Saudi Arabia and Egypt.
Read Gannon’s full statement HERE.
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This man brings intelligence to intelligence
May 8th, 2006 at 5:59 pmWhy can’t Bush listen to voices that speak the truth instead of the fortune-tellers he consults. They only tell him what he wants to hear,
May 8th, 2006 at 6:03 pmHardy, Bush listens to God. …Can we try God for war crimes and rampant corruption?
May 8th, 2006 at 6:07 pmJohn Gannon is correct, but the Bush lover trolls will say he is Jeff Gannon’s brother > lol.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:09 pmSo, with guys like this, why is it that Feinstein and Harman think there aren’t any good civilian candidates available who could run the CIA?
May 8th, 2006 at 6:10 pmCorrection – John Cornyn is the junior senator from Texas.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:10 pmThere you go with that “bigger picture” thinking again John, be ready for the bashing to begin.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:12 pmIf Repubs can just control their impulses long enough to step back and understand that the solutions that don’t involve immediate gratification tend to be lasting solutions.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:14 pm“It means that the terrorists or other extremists would find less fertile ground to build networks in the US because local support would be harder to come by and because local opposition would be more certain.”
Somehow I don’t think that terrorist cells in the U.S. are too worried about the “local support or opposition” considering their recruiting methods would be covert and out of the public eye. Hayden’s observation of repressive regimes, U.S. friendly or not, is pretty irrelevant to the comparision. If one looks at Europe and it’s infestation of terrorist cells, it is easy to see how open societies HELP terrorist organizations move and operate more freely. This is not an endorsement of changing the U.S. to a police state like the former Soviet Union or even close, but rather a simple disagreement of Hayden’s take on the balance of national security and civil liberties. In today’s day and age of technology compromises are going to have to be reached.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:22 pmjohn gannon’s observation is a sound one.
so,
how do we explain to arabs in america
the justice department’s persecution (not merely prosecution) of a number of very vocal arabs living in america, following September 11, 2001?
several of these doj “show trials” have failed to result in a conviction.
the jurors were not persuaded by the government’s evidence, including phone taps.
as many of these trials have unfolded, the suspicions grows
that the chief crime of the defendant was speaking out strongly about what he/she believed.
the u.s. dept of justice needs to be much more selective in its determinations of who to prosecute, focusing on actual terrorist
efforts , rather than speech.
right now, i would guess that any arab-american or any arab in america would be extremely cautious about his/her public speech, given the devastation these trials wreck on individuals and families.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:22 pmJohn Gannon is a man who understands what America is all about.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:27 pmAs does his brother Jeff……
May 8th, 2006 at 6:31 pmThe “after you’re dead” meme ignores that one thing men have been willing to die for is liberty.
I for one am not interested in Tracy’s technology compromises.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:32 pmJohn Gannon seems to be very qualified to run the CIA, but Bush likes stooges such as Michael Brown who ran FEMA, and now General Hayden who loves to wiretap without warrants!
May 8th, 2006 at 6:33 pmSorry Zookeeper, I couldn’t help myself. I shouldn’t make fun of the good guys…..
Not to fear. bushco will pay no attention to John’s advice, but will still try to swiftboat him, cause that’s all they know how to do.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:33 pmMy god tracy you are so right, time to strip out all of our civil rights, and ban the constitution until this war is over.
/sarcasm
Arabs in the US are far more accepted and integrated into society then arabs in europe. While in europe muslim religious leaders have openly called for destruction of the west, attacks on america etc. We have not seen a similar trend in the US. If a person feels they can adequatly express their concerns and objections, they will not feel a need to resort to violence to acheive goals. I do not accept that we need to end our way of life, because of fear. We can defend our culture and ourselves without destroying the fabric of our country. Namely Freedom and Liberty. I realize that you have forgotten those terms so I have included links to dictionary.com
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=freedom
http://dictionary.reference.com/search?q=liberty
May 8th, 2006 at 6:38 pmI want to hear just one Repub bring up Jeff Gannon.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:39 pmBut… but… the terrorists and exrtremists hate us for our civil liberties. Without them, they’ll have to take their ball and go home, no?
Now, for something completely different: if you want your heart broken, as was mine, then read this story that I picked up in the LA Times last night. If you happen to be a California resident, pay particular attention because this lady may be a neighbor of yours. I almost cried at work today thinking about this poor woman and her dog. If you blog, write about her or link to the story.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:43 pmIt is becoming obvious that Bush has wiretapped every member of the Congress via General Hayden at the NSA or he wants him to do so as the CIA Director, so for the Senate to confirm him is plain crazy! Every Senator that votes YES must be removed from office and put into a mental institution > PERIOD.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:44 pm#18,
I work in social services, I have a billion stories like that, ones that are much worse also. Everyone should get a taste these realities.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:49 pm#15 – I was thinking I should add something about Jeff…
May 8th, 2006 at 6:50 pm;)
Whatever this thread is about, it’s all Clinton’s fault. Somehow.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:50 pmUsed to do some onsite computer repair ages ago. one of the places I went to was a storage place. The folks who worked there had a hard time because poor people would rent the storage units and sleep in them at night.
I live in LA the area this women is talking about. I make a decent wage as does my wife, but home and rent prices are off the hook here.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:52 pmDoesn’t Tracy see that throughout that last 60 years or more, America has always had something for her citizens to be very afraid of. Right now its “Terrorism”. Do we hide under our desks for this one too?
May 8th, 2006 at 6:53 pm#16
“If a person feels they can adequatly express their concerns and objections, they will not feel a need to resort to violence to acheive goals.”
How is this relevant considering the infestation of terrorist cells even in Europe are not a result of people(s) feeling that they CAN’T adequately express their concerns and objections and need to resort to violence to achieve goals? These people who join these cell are working for a “world wide” jihad against the West. As you said, some OPENLY do it by preaching hate “on the street corner” and then others in the same societies still manage to operate very effectively under cover and out of the public eye.
“I do not accept that we need to end our way of life, because of fear.”
I never said we did.
“We can defend our culture and ourselves without destroying the fabric of our country.”
I totally agree. I think we, as a society, are clever enough to do that.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:57 pmIt’s funny how naive some Repubs are. They really honestly think their leaders care about them, “shoot straight”, and would never commit a sin.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:58 pmWell, you can tell that this Mr. Gannon is not one of our paid trolls.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:58 pmInteresting that Hayden is an Airforce General, since Bush’s plan to attack Iran is basically going to involve the Airforce bigtime, so having an Airforce stooge heading the CIA helps huh?
May 8th, 2006 at 6:58 pm…”If one looks at Europe and it’s infestation of terrorist cells, it is easy to see how open societies HELP terrorist organizations move and operate more freely.”
And how does being an open society help the terrorist organizations?
These observations are from a man with years of field experience. Don’t you
think it requires a little deeper thought about why he has come to his con-
clusions instead of proffering an anecdote that seems to you to prove your
case?
…”In today’s day and age of technology compromises are going to have to be reached.”
And whom, dare I ask, are you prepared to give this power to? My God, the CIA
nominee does not even know what the 4th amendment says. Can we expect him
to understand its meaning?
Just asking….
Tom
May 8th, 2006 at 6:59 pmYeah Tracy. Europe sure is intergrating those Muslims. Ever heard of a country called France. Have you heard about all of the riots they have been having? That is the same thing that has happened all over Europe.
Get out, get informed, you might learn a thing or two.
May 8th, 2006 at 7:03 pm“I do not accept that we need to end our way of life, because of fear.â€
Comment by Krazny — May 8, 2006 @ 6:38 pm
I never said we did.
Comment by Tracy — May 8, 2006 @ 6:57 pm
In today’s day and age of technology compromises are going to have to be reached.
Comment by Tracy — May 8, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
Yes you did.
There can be no compromise or we lose the freedom, and liberty we believe we deserve. The FISA court issued over 2000 warrants last year. No reason that our court system cannot keep up.
May 8th, 2006 at 7:07 pmLet us all welcome former CIA Deputy Di—Err, I mean, a clearly terroristic man whom we’ve so graciously let live to the no-fly list and warrantless wiretapping.
May 8th, 2006 at 7:50 pmGive me Liberty or Give me Death! Remember that old line?
May 8th, 2006 at 8:26 pmThis helps to explain why Gannon, who correctly identified the potential for 9-11 type terrorism when he worked in the Clinton CIA and other Clinton administration intelligence agencies, nevertheless failed to effectively prevent such terroism from coming to the U.S. homeland. He spent way too much time worrying about phantom threats to civil liberties, and way too little time worrying about real terrorist threats to life and limb.
God help us all if the Dems ever return to power.
May 8th, 2006 at 8:42 pmWell BSR since you are so close to God, that should be no problem.
May 8th, 2006 at 8:50 pmSquueg said about IRAN;
“to force them to stop at just gaining nuclear power capabilities.”
IRAN already has Reactors Squeege.
Did you know? Or did you know and are just being a war propagandist convenietly leaving out facts?
~~
In 1974 the German contractor Siemens began construction of two 1,200-1,300 megawatt electric (MWe) pressurized water nuclear reactors near Bushehr. The Shah of Iran intended that this program would provide Iran the infrastructure essential for industrializing the country.
The Siemens subsidiary Kraftwerk Union AG (KWU) had been designing and building nuclear power plants since the mid-1950s. Experience gained in the early years with different reactor types soon led to the emergence of the light water reactor as the most economical technology. From the very beginning, Siemens pursued the development of both pressurized water reactor (PWR) and boiling water reactor (BWR) plants. Beginning in the early 1970s the German government supported efforts by Siemens/KWU to secure turnkey nuclear reactor contracts in foreign markets. In 1974, Biblis A went on line in Germany: at that time the world’s largest nuclear power plant with a capacity of 1149 MW. The three 1300-MW class Convoy plants – Isar 2, Emsland and Neckar 2 – were built in Germany between 1981 and 1989.
Although the facility is consistently known as the “Bushehr†reactors, the facility is actually located near Halileh [aka Haleyleh, 28°49′58″N 50°52′44″E], which is about a dozen kilometers to the south of Bushehr proper.
http://www.fas.org/ nuke/ guide/ iran/ facility/ bushehr.htm
~~~
I notice you put IRAN Fear into every POST.
May 8th, 2006 at 9:01 pmWHo are you and who do you work FOR Squeege?
I find you to be a Manipulator. Worse one that leaves facts out conveniently.
I have nothing to say to you, because YOU HAVE NOT STUDIED what you speak of. In effect YOU cannot be trusted.
I think, and others may or may not agree, You are another NEO-CON apologist LIAR Propoagandist.
Notice the Reactor is a BUSH-EHR.
Blue State Red.
Your about as good a propagandist as Squeege.
Of course he leaves out facts as well. Damn Facts.
Whom Pays you to post such garbage BSR?
May 8th, 2006 at 9:05 pmNobody I know that has a lick of sense,would post like you do.
WHom Pays you BSR? Or are you really that Uninformed?
Or are you that Gullible?
#34
May 8th, 2006 at 9:14 pmattack 9/11/01 happened on your boys watch you idiot!!
NOTHING you say wil change that.
When you sob right wing fascist have nothing fall back
on blaming Clinton (or indirectly blmaing Clinton)
it is getting tiresome.
stfu and gop back and post on redstate with the other
boot lickers that eat the same shit you do.
What country did Senators Roberts and Cornyn come from? This crap about not having liberties when you’re dead. They need to face the troops fighting and dying for “freedom” and say that. By the way, I’d put up Hancock, Adams, Franklin, Jefferson, etal against Roberts and Cornyn any day! In wrapping up this country’s founding statement over repeated assaults on inalienable rights they “… pledge our lives, our fortunes, and our sacred honor.”
May 8th, 2006 at 9:18 pm#39 Exactly, “you don’t have liberties when you are dead”??? What a bunch of cowards. The right wing is full of little panty-waists who are trying to give the terrists exactly what they want. “They hate us for our liberties”. Well, then we defeat them by giving up our liberties!!! Retarded Repubs. Traitors, all of them.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:44 pm#9: If one looks at Europe and it’s infestation of terrorist cells, it is easy to see how
open societies HELP terrorist organizations move and operate more freely
That’s the opinion of an idiot. In fact the CIA official — someone with experience in such matters — notes that just the opposite is true. Clandestine, terrorist regimes (which certainly includes this fascist Bush regime) play host to terrorists in far greater abundance and severity than do open governments.
This is one of the reasons why this fascist regime has nullified the U. S. Constitution and Bill of Rights and has gutted the Freedom of Information Act — as well as instigated “Free Speech Zones” and other fascist terrorist acts and treason against Ameri
May 8th, 2006 at 11:26 pmyes
welcome to http://zyzg.org
May 9th, 2006 at 2:15 am[...] Think Progress has an amazing assessment of the importance of civil liberties to combat terrorism, from the former CIA Deputy Director of Intelligence. Think Rumsfeld agrees? [...]
May 9th, 2006 at 3:15 amBTW, Darth Cheeney is scheduled to be in Duncan, OK for the Halliburton Shareholders meeting on 5/16/06. City officials on the record deny it, but off the record say it is true. Some schools will be closed that day, again school officials on the record deny it, but off the record admit it.
One official with law enforcement off the record says it is true, and that over 600 SWAT team members will be at the ready should anything go afoul.
What is really funny is the fact that the meeting, usually held in Houston was moved for the first time in over two decades to a little po-dunk town where Halliburton originated.
The thing that smells of fascism is over 60 groups have filed with the City for permits to gather, yet only one permit has been issued. Boys and girls can you say coverup/limit dissent?
you can call the city of duncan to ask at 580-252-0250 and ask for the city manager you can call the police dept at 580-255-2112
you can call the board of ed at 580-255-0686
you can call the sherriffs dept at 580-255-3131
Thanks for all your help
May 9th, 2006 at 4:06 amWhy not just change american Foreign policy . By doing this nothing else ever need be done
May 9th, 2006 at 4:55 am#16 Sorry, Krazny, but yours is a very idealistic version, IMHO. The reason that there have been demonstrations of muslims in Europe is for (in France almost exclusively, Spain is now free of them, because muslim immigration is recent), is because there are a LOT more muslims concentrated in poor neighbourhoods in France, because Europe is very near of muslim countries, because France had important muslim colonies in Africa and has very high muslim immigration rates. And many rioters were second generation muslims (they are french by passport, but don’t feel integrated enough), disgruntled for having a high rate of unemployment.
And freedom and democracy has few ado, remember that France has also a Democracy (the second old, after yours, remember, July 14, 1789, and many of the ideologues in whose writings is based the USA Constitution were french), so please, is a bit naïf to say that you don’t have riots because you’re freer, because you HAVE riots. Remember the Los Angeles ones. The main cause wasn’t race, was poorness of the ones of that race.
In contrast to the french poor immigrants, in the USA the main immigration flow is from latin american countries. And, fear to say, as recently as the days 5/1 and the 5/5, you have had demonstrations in many of your cities, based on the same principles: lack of integration, empoverished neighbourhoods, lower economic background. They were peaceful ones, because the greater share of latin immigrants are peaceful workers, but you have to admit that there are a lot of disgruntled latinos in your country, many in violent gangs, and is an old problem.
Just go to some neighbourhoods of Los Angeles or Miami and write again about the better integration in your freer society.
Sorry, Krazny, generally I agree with your posts and ideas, but that one was too simplistic. As I see, the solution is a full integration of the immigrants, as you say, but please, the holier than thou is a too common USA stance, even when it is plainly false. France has problems with integration, but USA also has them.
May 9th, 2006 at 7:31 amAnd many rioters were second generation muslims (they are french by passport, but don’t feel integrated enough), disgruntled for having a high rate of unemployment.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — May 9, 2006 @ 7:31 am
So it’s more of a Civil Rights issue?
May 9th, 2006 at 7:38 am#9 Yes, yes. /Sarcasm
Frankly, you’re an idiot. You sweep happily every underground movement in the world under the rug. From American Patriots to Russian Revolutionaries, including Resistants in France, Polony, Germany, Italy against Hitler, all began as secret movements between some patriots and ideologues. Every movement stiffling the freedom hardened the determination of “freedom fighters”. And they were born in totalitarian (=RIGHTIST) societies.
Think of it: every time you defend a freedom stiffling idea, you are contributing to the oppostion of it, as well.
May 9th, 2006 at 7:42 amJust go to some neighbourhoods of Los Angeles or Miami and write again about the better integration in your freer society.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — May 9, 2006 @ 7:31 am
When my brother lived in Miami, he couldn’t get a decent paying job unless he spoke fluent Spanish because the businesses there have to cater to the language barrier. Even McDonald’s.
I’m not judging it. Montreal has a similar French-English situation themselves. Just saying that we do have cultural disparity in pocket areas. But, by and large, it’s the exception rather than the rule. We’ve become so diverse that in some urban areas there is no majority of any culture – so most people are forced to integrate.
I still oppose illegal immigration. I’ve watched friends struggle through the bureaucracy of the legal immigration system and think it’s wholly unfair to them, and sets a terrible precident, to give amnesty to those who’ve broken the law. Maybe we did it in the past and it worked just fine, but that was a different time with different factors (lower population for one).
May 9th, 2006 at 7:49 am#47 Yes. As I said, the integration isn’t going well in France. Youngsters sons of immigrants have a crappy employment future, and the ministers Sarkozy and Villepin tend to have a heavy handed approach. In plus, France is needed of a rethinking of the economic model to compete with less social-friendly countries (this is yours, and China) in the global market. The new french GOP wanted to promulgate (unilaterally, without the unions) some laws to improve the “labor flexibility” (in short, easing too quickly the “pink slip” requierments, specially for youngs seeking his first job). That provoked protests and demonstrations. Then, the heavy handed policy (and police) of Sarkozy (ending in the dead of two youngs who were running from the police, because they tried to hide in a great electric generator, and were electroshocked accidentally), in addition to Sarkozy calling “gangster” to young rioters, only fueled the riots.
The riots only eased when Chirac promised a revision of the labor laws, trying to not charge so much hardness to any group.
May 9th, 2006 at 8:00 amJohn Gannon to run the CIA?
It would be a good choice really, the guy sounds a lot less likely to panic and destroy America’s constitution, sounds to have experience in the role, and doesn’t particularly sound to be out to make political points. I mean, face it his statement was neither left nor right, but rather one of his own observations.
That said, I still feel that the bulk of the issue is that nations with a larger middle class, achieve greater civil liberties, which leads to greater stability, which leads to a larger middle class. The fluffy circle with bunnies hopping around it if you will.
While there is always a need for control, the greater the wealth of the average person, and wealth isn’t just money it is the ability to make money, the more that person has to lose, and the less interested they are in revolution. You need to stop worrying about blowing people up, and start worrying about how to fix their economies if you want to put an end to terrorism.
May 9th, 2006 at 8:22 am#31
“There can be no compromise or we lose the freedom, and liberty we believe we deserve.”
We lose freedoms EVERY year when new laws are added to the books. LOL! This notion you have or I think you have, that we don’t compromise freedom and liberty every time a new law is passed is something you need to realize….very quickly.
May 9th, 2006 at 9:29 am#48
“You sweep happily every underground movement in the world under the rug.”
Frankily it would be nice if you understood what you read. What underground movement have I “swept under the rug”?
“And they were born in totalitarian (=RIGHTIST) societies.”
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
“Totalitarianism is a typology employed by political scientists, especially those in the field of comparative politics, to describe modern regimes in which the state regulates nearly every aspect of public and private behavior.”
That would be a LEFTIST idea you twit.
“Think of it: every time you defend a freedom stiffling idea, you are contributing to the oppostion of it, as well.”
Oh that would be laws, rules, and regulations that seem to be very passed EVERY year in the U.S. and other countries around the world. Are you promoting anarchy? Without the rule of law society would tear itself apart.
May 9th, 2006 at 9:48 amYou need to stop worrying about blowing people up, and start worrying about how to fix their economies if you want to put an end to terrorism.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — May 9, 2006 @ 8:22 am
You can’t fix their economies when their governments are corrupt. Besides, a good economy doesn’t fix religious fanaticism, hatred for the Jews, hatred for America, etc. Blow them up then fix their economies.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:09 amTracy should move to Iran; his views mimic theirs. I believe he would be much more at home.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:13 am#54 Work release, eh?
May 9th, 2006 at 10:14 amSens. Pat Roberts (R-KS) and John Cornyn (R-TX), have taken to repeating the line that civil liberties don’t matter much “after you’re dead.â€
The great drawback of the GOP’s crony system is that it promotes weak little pussies like these two men. Pathetic. Scared little men like that make me sick.
Kinda like George Bush.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:17 am.
#52 Move. You are in the wrong country.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:18 am“In this sense, our liberties are a powerful antidote to violent extremism.”
Unless you’re talking about the international communists and their allies in the USA who use our very liberal civil rights to foment violent extremism and escape justice.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:22 amThis is one of the reasons why this fascist regime has nullified the U. S. Constitution and Bill of Rights and has gutted the Freedom of Information Act — as well as instigated “Free Speech Zones†and other fascist terrorist acts and treason against Ameri
Comment by Fredric L. Rice
Nonsense, you haven’t lost anything but your mind. You can’t give any examples of the above and you’re apparently ignorant of the fact that our first black president was the president who instigated the free speech zones. I’d like the tin foil franchise in your neighborhood.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:28 amLOL I-R-I is back to defend the Bush Regime no matter what crap they spew!
May 9th, 2006 at 10:37 amTracy
Nope. The left is all about freedom of speech, privacy and the right to protest. The left is about protecting civil rights such as the right to vote and the right to not have big brother listening in on your conversations without a warrant.
While the left does advocate a society of laws, where there are basic standards which all must adhere to, it does not advocate the extreme where absolutely everything is legislated.
We believe in certain social services (Such as education, law enforcement, health care and looking after the elderly) but there is nothing in our ideology which states that you have to use those services, apart from law enforcement.
While we do advocate strict governmental control and oversight over businesses, this is due to business’ long history of taking massive advantage when said controls aren’t present to the detriment of society as a whole. A lot of Roosevelt’s ideas were based on the idea of not repeating the Great Depression.
We don’t like the idea of drinking poisoned water or having to gamble on whether our medicines are rat poison or not. You of course, don’t mind the idea of their being absolutely zilch you can do about it if the products you buy have a fatal effect on you. Just taking your arguments to the same extreme you take ours of course.
And Antagonist:
Throwing money at a problem doesn’t solve any more then throwing bombs at it will. The fact is that you need to learn to use the more subtle powers of the economy to achieve your ends, because frankly it isn’t a case of gold or lead being the only options. Sometimes, sometimes all you need to do is stop giving aid. If you stop giving aid, maybe, just maybe the people can sort their own shit out. If they don’t they are a problem that will go away all by itself, and yes that does heartless but how long has Ethiopia been a aid sinkhole?
I say institute a limit on aid. 2 years, and if you aren’t back on your feet after that, screw it you can starve. You need to learn that wealth is the aim, not money, wealth, and wealth isn’t generated by thinly veiled stock dumping and money going to the corrupt governments that caused the screw up in the first place.
May 9th, 2006 at 10:43 amI’d like the tin foil franchise in your neighborhood.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — May 9, 2006 @ 10:28 am
Well, you are the tin foil expert… :)
May 9th, 2006 at 11:03 amLOL I-R-I is back to defend the Bush Regime no matter what crap they spew!
Comment by Jay Randal — May 9, 2006 @ 10:37 am
Even you have to admit that he’s a lot better than the Denny/GURU/E.Coli troll…
May 9th, 2006 at 11:05 amIn the spirit of Mr Gannon’s comment, let’s design a new poker game: one with the faces of the Bush administration heroes and their backers in the Republican establishment. Bottom half of each card: the achievements and where action was lacking.
Ace of Spades: Cheney – war in Irak, torture (newest edition), Guantanamo, black sites, national and international law breaking,
lack of action on Katrina disaster, gas prices, health care for working Americans …
King of Spades: Bush – same as above, huge deficits
Queen of Spades: Condi – war in Irak, covering up black sites and torture
Jack of Spades: Rumsfeld – same as Cheney/Bush, doesn’t see that soldiers are properly provided for during and after action
Ace of Diamonds: Abramoff – go to guy for all your legislative influence peddling needs
King of Diamonds: Delay – gerrymandering, vote buying etc
Ace of Clubs: Gonzales – he who redefined torture and called the Geneva Conventions”quaint”
Jack of Clubs: Rove – outed a CIA agent, smeared Vietnam vets’ honor
we can even put faces on numbered cards: Pat Roberts (stonewalling the Irak war investigation), Frist, Cambone, etc, the usual yes-men
I’m not cynical enough to fill the hearts positions; oh actually: Ann Coulter might do, for instigating violence towards people who disagree with her.
The whole Republican setup in one handy package!
May 9th, 2006 at 12:08 pmA memorization aid for future history students! A game for the whole family on a rainy Sunday afternoon!!
#53
“You sweep happily every underground movement in the world under the rug.â€
Frankily it would be nice if you understood what you read. What underground movement have I “swept under the rug�
Simple. You dismiss the examples in where the state was a totalitarian one and “terrorirst movements” (as they were branded by the totalitarian regime, even if they were democrats fighting for freedom) thrived and were fueled by totalitarianism. My point is that a totalitarian regime FUELS “terrorism”, or opposition.
“And they were born in totalitarian (=RIGHTIST) societies.â€
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Totalitarianism
“Totalitarianism is a typology employed by political scientists, especially those in the field of comparative politics, to describe modern regimes in which the state regulates nearly every aspect of public and private behavior.â€
That would be a LEFTIST idea you twit.
It’s curious, the paragraph you cite is crossed out. But what isn’t crossed out is:
“The most influential scholars of totalitarianism, such as Karl Popper, Hannah Arendt, Carl Friedrich, Zbigniew Brzezinski, and Juan Linz have each described totalitarianism in a slightly different way. Common to all definitions is the attempt to mobilize of entire populations in support of the state and a political or religious ideology, and the intolerance of activities which are not directed towards the goals of the state, such as involvement with labour unions, churches or political parties. Totalitarian regimes maintain themselves in political power by means of secret police, propaganda disseminated through the state-controlled mass media, regulation and restriction of free discussion and criticism, the use of mass surveillance, and widespread use of terror tactics.”
Wow, sounds a lot as the post 9/11 USA.
“Think of it: every time you defend a freedom stiffling idea, you are contributing to the oppostion of it, as well.â€
Oh that would be laws, rules, and regulations that seem to be very passed EVERY year in the U.S. and other countries around the world. Are you promoting anarchy? Without the rule of law society would tear itself apart.
Sorry, but I don’t defend anarchy, because in anarchy only the biggest shark survives. BTW, the capitalism (economic anarchy) hasn’t resolved all the problems of your country, isn’t?
And Tracy, you put in a single basket all the laws and rules. Maybe I must descend to your ignorance pit to illuminate you. Look: good laws grant liberty for everybody. Bad laws stiffle the liberties.
Comment by Tracy — May 9, 2006 @ 9:48 am
Bye, Trashy.
May 9th, 2006 at 12:31 pmAnd how about the head of HUD, Alphonso Jackson, declaring that if you’re not a Bush supporter, you can’t expect to get a government contract!
May 9th, 2006 at 12:32 pmWell, you are the tin foil expert… :)
Comment by unbelievable
I buy only the extra heavy duty. The Donk brain wave scanners are getting better every day.
May 9th, 2006 at 12:37 pmI buy only the extra heavy duty. The Donk brain wave scanners are getting better every day.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — May 9, 2006 @ 12:37 pm
I’m sure you’ve fried your brain well enough on your own… :)
May 9th, 2006 at 1:37 pmI’m sure you’ve fried your brain well enough on your own… :)
Comment by unbelievable
No doubt. Some of my best old friends were renegade botanists, if you know what I mean. I would imagine that over the years of self inflicted euphoria I’ve managed to lose about 20 IQ points but that still leaves me 20 points ahead of the smartest left wing loser. You see I used to be an evil genius before Jesus kicked my butt. Now I’m just scary smart.
May 9th, 2006 at 3:19 pmJesus kicked my butt.
A dead guy beat you up? Apparently you can add hallucinations to your list of long-term side-effects :)
Now I’m just scary.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — May 9, 2006 @ 3:19 pm
There, I fixed it for you :D
May 9th, 2006 at 3:43 pm#66
“(as they were branded by the totalitarian regime, even if they were democrats fighting for freedom)”
Please give an example of which movement I “mislabled” as a terrorist one operating amongst a totalitarian regime where they are really just “democrats fighting for freedom”.
“My point is that a totalitarian regime FUELS “terrorismâ€, or opposition.”
Terrorism and opposition can be defined totally seperately and shouldn’t even be related in the political sense. When the oppostion resorts to terrorism they LOSE all creditability and are marginalized to the point were fear is their only source of forced respect, which is why Hamas, for example, cannot be dealt with legitimately, because of their proclaimed goal of the annihilation of Israel.
“Wow, sounds a lot as the post 9/11 USA.”
Yeah whatever! That was a pathetic reference/example, but doesn’t suprise me that you would attempt to push such a BS idea especially since you seem to have a taste for left wing propoganda and considering you don’t live in the U.S. (I think). A better example would be communist China or the former Soviet Union and Cuba. You get totalitarianism when you go too far to the left OR too far to the right BTW. I therefore apologize for my “twit” comment.
“BTW, the capitalism (economic anarchy) hasn’t resolved all the problems of your country, isn’t?”
The U.S. economy is a hybrid of capitalism and socialism. No economic system can solve all problems BTW.
“good laws grant liberty for everybody.”
“Bad laws stiffle the liberties.”
And just who determines what is a “good” law or “bad” law when a law creates liberty for one person and takes it away from another? People, in the U.S. at least, have different views on what present day laws hinder liberty or add too it. Example: gun control…some see it as direct attack on liberty and other see it as necessary for the public good. It all depends on your own personal perspective. Your pit seems to be quite deeper than mine considering you seem to think that liberty can be defined for everyone the same.
May 9th, 2006 at 4:15 pm#58
Considering you are the one who wants to stifle my liberty as an American by telling me to move…you seem to be in the wrong country to match your ideology.
May 9th, 2006 at 4:44 pm#62
“The left is all about freedom of speech, privacy and the right to protest.”
I have mounds of evidence that the far left AND the far right are directly opposed to these very ideas. Both try to prohibit free speech, privacy, and the right to protest. You do know what I mean by “far left” and “far right”….don’t you?
“While the left does advocate a society of laws, where there are basic standards which all must adhere to, it does not advocate the extreme where absolutely everything is legislated.”
So does the right. That is what the far left and the far right want.
“We believe in certain social services (Such as education, law enforcement, health care and looking after the elderly)”
So does the right.
“While we do advocate strict governmental control and oversight over businesses,”
The strict government control the bad word in that statement. Oversight, i.e. rules and reasonable regulations are good and necessary; however, when government gets into the business of price controls, for example that is when you cross the line and start down the detrimental path of the crap idea of a “planned ceonomy”.
“…when said controls aren’t present to the detriment of society as a whole.”
That isn’t the situation in the U.S. today.
“We don’t like the idea of drinking poisoned water or having to gamble on whether our medicines are rat poison or not.”
Neither does the right, which is why the FDA was created under Republican president Roosevelt in 1906.
“Just taking your arguments to the same extreme you take ours of course.”
Oh good I thought you were serious. I am glad you are not, or don’t appear to be on the fringe far left.
May 9th, 2006 at 5:34 pm“We don’t like the idea of drinking poisoned water or having to gamble on whether our medicines are rat poison or not.â€
Neither does the right, which is why the FDA was created under Republican president Roosevelt in 1906.
Comment by Tracy
You don’t win a debate about the current political situation by citing what a Republican president (Teddy Roosevelt) did 100 years ago. Although I didn’t like President Nixon for his paranoid spying on political opponents (*similar to what George Bush is trying to do today*), I must admit that his administration had the foresight to set up some good regulations concerning the environment. Now around 30-35 years later, the Bush administration is trying to undo them and even sell off some of our national parks. Teddy Roosevelt himself was a conservationist. By contrast, as some pundit (whose name escapes me right now) pointed out, “George Bush has never met a tree he didn’t want to chop down.”
May 9th, 2006 at 8:31 pm* Oh, I know you reichwing trolls will argue that Bush has “justifiably” ordered wiretapping of terror suspects, but the fact remains that the US intelligence agencies are woefully lacking in translators/interpreters of Arabic, Urdu, Farsi and other languages Muslim terrorists are likely to be speaking and that is already a backlog of hundreds of thousands of untranslated intercepted calls. So what is the urgency to wiretap something that is likely to remain untranslated for months, unless it is really wiretapping of Bush’s domestic opposition? None of you trolls has come up with a decent explanation for why 4 1/2 years after 9/11, the “oh-so-tough-on-security” Bush administration hasn’t even set up a program to increase the number of intelligence agents competent in Arabic and other languages spoken in predominantly Muslim countries.
WOW!!! I am impressed! The moonbat Leftists who litter the blogs with their conspiracy theories and “useful idiot” hatred of the USA, have found an ally in Iran’s President AmIdeadYet. I believe many points in his prolific 17 page “letter” to President Bush were found RIGHT here at TP and the rest of the communist/progressive blogs!! Congratulations!
Among AmIdeadyets points:
the Iraq war was based on a “lie”
the Bush administration had a hand in 9/11
why should Middle-Eastern “technology” concern Israel?
does Israel have a right to exist?
I am sure having your views allied with those of the Iranian leadership is a great source of pride for leftists EVERYWHERE!! SOMEONE is taking you seriously! Once again, my heartiest congratulations…
May 10th, 2006 at 12:53 amMighty Hypocrite,
May 10th, 2006 at 6:17 amYou’re the one who hates the USA, its Constitution, and its formerly guarantees on freedom of speech.
#75
“You don’t win a debate about the current political situation by citing what a Republican president (Teddy Roosevelt) did 100 years ago.”
And you don’t win a debate by attempting to cite a bunch of issues that you think liberals can claim the high ground on.
“None of you trolls has come up with a decent explanation for why 4 1/2 years after 9/11″
How many times do you have to be told that there isn’t a decent explanation for the translator problem? Why do you keep mentioning the same thing over and over again?
“So what is the urgency to wiretap something that is likely to remain untranslated for months, unless it is really wiretapping of Bush’s domestic opposition?”
If you are referring to the Democrats…that would be a waste of time considering there is nothing worth listening to. You aren’t buying into that BS theory that the NSA is tapping political opponents of the Bush administration…are you?
May 10th, 2006 at 10:19 am#78 How many times do you have to be told that there isn’t a decent explanation for the translator problem? Why do you keep mentioning the same thing over and over again?
Comment by Tracy
Tracy-troll,
May 10th, 2006 at 10:43 amI don’t need to be told; as a professional translator, I am quite aware of the problem.
I will bring up the translator issue as long as it remains an issue and as long as you shills fail to produce a good explanation of why the Bush administration has failed to take this most basic step in the so-called war on terrorism in 4 1/2 years–more time than between the Pearl Harbor attack and the end of WWII. It is far more relevant to the discussion on than Mighty Hypocrite’s repeated references to Ted Kennedy’s car accident and you trolls’ repeated attempts to blame everything on Clinton.
I also realize that cerebral work isn’t very sexy to you trigger-happy Rethugs, but in actuality nothing can be done with the intelligence gathered unless it can be rendered promptly into English. And pray tell just what is the purpose of warantless wiretapping, when there is already a backlog of hundreds of thousands of hours of untranslated intercepted calls? Why is there supposedly such a rush to wiretap Americans even without a warrant issued 72 hours retroactively, when the intelligence isn’t likely to be put into English for months in the first place?
And Tracy, I don’t think most of the people who use this site are annoyed by my references to the lack of intelligence agents competent in Arabic and other languages spoken in the Muslim countries; it’s only trolls and shills like you who can’t come up with a good excuse for the Bush administration’s failure to take this most basic step in intelligence-gathering. Sorry, dear, maybe you should turn to Ann-thrax Coulter’s site; I’m sure you’ll find more suitable company for yourself there.
#79
“…and you trolls’ repeated attempts to blame everything on Clinton.”
It is very EASY to point out that Clinton share alot of the blame for 9/11. Also pointing out Clinton’s complete failures in regards to terrorism prevention in the 1990s is very relevant considering his wife will most likely get the Democratic nomination for president in 2008. The two are clones of on another as far as domestic and foreign policy is concerned.
“And pray tell just what is the purpose of warantless wiretapping, when there is already a backlog of hundreds of thousands of hours of untranslated intercepted calls?”
To track certain individuals with terrorist connections.
“Why is there supposedly such a rush to wiretap Americans even without a warrant issued 72 hours retroactively, when the intelligence isn’t likely to be put into English for months in the first place?”
The NSA is getting a bunch of U.S. incoming calls from from countries like Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, ect… Likewise there are U.S. outgoing calls calls going to those same countries. Just because you can’t immediately translate all of the calls doesn’t mean you pass up the opportunity to collect information.
“Sorry, dear, maybe you should turn to Ann-thrax Coulter’s site; I’m sure you’ll find more suitable company for yourself there.”
Why would I pass up so many opportunities to point out TP’s BS?
May 10th, 2006 at 11:05 am#“80 Why is there supposedly such a rush to wiretap Americans even without a warrant issued 72 hours retroactively, when the intelligence isn’t likely to be put into English for months in the first place?â€
The NSA is getting a bunch of U.S. incoming calls from from countries like Afghanistan, Iran, Syria, ect… Likewise there are U.S. outgoing calls calls going to those same countries. Just because you can’t immediately translate all of the calls doesn’t mean you pass up the opportunity to collect information
Comment by Tracy
Tracy-troll,
May 10th, 2006 at 11:29 amYou still haven’t explained why a 72-hour retroactive warrant–the legal way–has to be ignored, when you admit that the calls won’t be translated immediately–as a matter of fact, not for months. Sorry, dear, but even the president of the United States is not above the law, as Richard Nixon found out some 30 years ago.
And your attempt to blame Clinton equally for 9/11 as Bush, who couldn’t give up his summer vacation to pay attention to documents titled “Osama bin Laden determined to attack inside the US” and those from FBI agents about the suspicious number of Arabs enrolling in flight schools is the biggest BS of all. One such FBI agent, who says she voted for Bush in 2000, will be running for Congress as a Democrat this year.
Really, Tracy, you’re wasting your and everyone else’s time here; I doubt if you’ve persuaded anyone but your fellow trolls and shills of anything. Particularly in this particular thread, the words of someone who worked for years in this field at the CIA have a lot more weight than yours.
Anyway, I have to get off to work. Sweet dreams, troll.
Ps. Tracy,
May 10th, 2006 at 11:48 amRead the Think-Fast thread, where the former NSA Director Bobby Imman criticizes Bush’s use of warrantless wiretapping. Sorry dear, but his words, combined with those of former CIA agent John Gannon, carry more weight than yours, although in the USA you are at the present juncture still allowed to express your own opinion.
#81
“Sorry, dear, but even the president of the United States is not above the law…”
Sorry dear but NO court has rendered a legal opinion as to whether or not the law was broken. Untill the issue is brought before a federal court you and others can blow all the hot air you want.
“You still haven’t explained why a 72-hour retroactive warrant–the legal way–has to be ignored….”
I think it just might be because the U.S. is at war…possibly? Again no court has rendered a legal opinion or been presented with a case. You can keep on talking about this all you want, but since neither of us is a constitutional expert, you are wasting our time.
And your attempt to blame Clinton equally for 9/11 as Bush…is the biggest BS of all.”
The information you are referring to it but a few documents in thousands of others that the Clinton administration passed on to the Bush administration. A grain of sand in a big bucket to suggest an analogy. Clinton has EIGHT YEARS to do something about al Qaeda and bin Laden and failed miserbly evidence by the fact the the terrorist organization GREW in strength and sophistication thru out the 1990s and actually plotted the 9/11 attacks in 1999…on Clinton’s watch.
“Really, Tracy, you’re wasting your and everyone else’s time here…”
Apparently I am not wasting your time considering you time and the desire to respond to my comments.
“Anyway, I have to get off to work. Sweet dreams, troll”
Shouldn’t you already be at work troll?
May 10th, 2006 at 2:22 pm#82
“…former NSA Director Bobby Imman”
This former NSA director under Carter right when the FISA was enacted BTW…is not a constitutional legal expert either. . Oh, and neither is John Gannon. Go figure.
The constitution trumps any federal law…if it came before Supreme Court.
http://v10.pajamasmedia.com/site/story/story.2005-12-19.8274449806
“…although in the USA you are at the present juncture still allowed to express your own opinion.”
Untill people like you try and take that right away, i.e. free speech.
May 10th, 2006 at 3:42 pmTracy-troll,
May 10th, 2006 at 6:20 pmIn case you haven’t realize it, there are different time zones in this world. Also, my profession isn’t a 9-5 jjob. When there is need, I work longer hours than that–often at home, and at other times shorter hours. How about you?
So far I have seen you state that inspecting cargo coming into the US is unrealistic and calling the 9/11 Commission’s suggestions on how to make the USA more secure a “wish list.” Your only solution to fighting terrorism seems to be wiretapping US citizens, even though the US intelligence agencies lack the linguists to translate such interceptions from Arabic, Urdu, Farsi, etc. into English for months and months. Really creative thinking!
And when did Congress declare war?
The progressives/liberals are very much for free speech. It’s people like you who promote warrantless wiretapping of American citizens that threaten it. You have been taking issue with John Gannon’s statement that American-style liberties are, in fact, not conducive to spreading terrorism. Case closed. You will just go around in circles; I don’t have the time for all that.
#85
“Your only solution to fighting terrorism seems to be wiretapping US citizens”
Other the the linguistics training proposal, which I think is a GREAT idea BTW, we have never discussed all the potential solutions to fighting terrorism. This is the ONLY thing I can remember you offering as a tool to fight terrorism. The wiretapping of INTERNATIONAL phone conversations however, is a rather big tool when it comes to fighting terrorism. If you wish to discuss other potential solutions we can do that. I will give you the first shot…besides the translator issue what else do you think would work that you know ISN’T being done already by the U.S. government?
“So far I have seen you state that inspecting cargo coming into the US is unrealistic…”
I didn’t say it was unrealistic. I said that the time frame implimentation proposal was unrealistic.
“And when did Congress declare war?”
Congress didn’t declare war, because that would require it be declared on a specific country or countries; however,….
http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/sept_11/sjres23_eb.htm
“The progressives/liberals are very much for free speech. It’s people like you who promote warrantless wiretapping of American citizens that threaten it.”
If there is a plot to harm the U.S. or it’s citizens that is being conceived by other U.S. citizens then I have a RIGHT to know about it. I expect the leaders of our country to treat what happened on 9/11 as an act of war no matter WHO was involved.
“You have been taking issue with John Gannon’s statement that American-style liberties are, in fact, not conducive to spreading terrorism. Case closed.”
It’s not a “fact” the American-style liberties would somehow prevent the spread of terrorism cells inside the U.S. The FACT that the 9/11 plot used multiple facets of American liberties to carry out the attacks should be plainly evident to even the most simple minded person. He didn’t present ANY evidence to support his claim…just that it was supposedly based on personal experience of studying terrorist cells inside countries that had totalitarian regimes…which of course the U.S. does not have.
May 10th, 2006 at 7:11 pmYou don’t seem to want to hear it again, but the first step in fighting terrorisms is having the linguists capable of handling the intelligence gathered. Without them, all the interceptions, which you think you have a right to know about, are meaningless. I don’t claim to be an expert in fighting terrorism, but, as a professional translator, I am very familiar with the history of the Japanese-language schools FDR set up for the military and intelligence agents promptly after the attack on Pearl Harbor. Japanese isn’t an easy language, and, like Arabic, it has a completely different writing system. Still, some people who didn’t know any Japanese in December 1941 became competent enough by 1943/1944, not just to do basic translations but als to break military codes.
May 10th, 2006 at 7:37 pmThere is no excuse for the Bush administration not to have taken any action in this regard by now. Similarly moves should have been set up by now to implement inspections of cargo coming into the US. If you keep on saying the time frame is unrealistic, absolutely nothing will ever get done.
Ps. I should add that the Bush administration hasn’t done much about securing the US’s borders, has it? It would be pretty easy for a potential Muslim terrorist to dress like a Mexican, with dark hair and swarthy complexion, and slip in with all the others illegally crossing the US’s southern borders.
May 10th, 2006 at 7:46 pm#87
“You don’t seem to want to hear it again, but the first step in fighting terrorisms is having the linguists capable of handling the intelligence gathered.”
Since you said you are not a terroism expert how can you say that the first step in fighting terrorism is having people that can translate the telephone conversations? It is but one step. I would say the first step is having spys in the field to gather information on the ground about those plotting terrorist acts by interacting with the local residents and getting information from them.
“There is no excuse for the Bush administration not to have taken any action in this regard by now.”
How do you know that action hasn’t been taken already?
http://www.house.gov/wolf/news/2005/06-30fbipress.html
May 11th, 2006 at 10:49 am#88
I have been saying that for years, as a resident of Texas. Democrats don’t want to secure the border either because that would take away votes from them.
May 11th, 2006 at 10:52 amTracy – Caught Dem hack Susan TurnBULL this morning telling the DemPLAN for the country. Some was recycled tripe “like giving Americans the same kind of health care 36 more civilized countries provide” – oh good(!!) Hill-care!!! Other “bright bulb” from Susan was defending America – but since she never explained the “Dem Plan” I don’t think she KNEW what she was discussing – who knew???
May 11th, 2006 at 1:49 pmIt is but one step. I would say the first step is having spys in the field to gather information on the ground about those plotting terrorist acts by interacting with the local residents and getting information from them.
Comment by Tracy
And how are the spies going to interact with the local residents and get information from them if they don’t speak and comprehend the local language? Bringing interpreters along is really much too conspicuous for such work.
May 11th, 2006 at 4:28 pmIt also would have been nice if the Bush administration had enacted more of the 9/11 Commission’s suggestions for making the USA more secure–what you dismiss a “wish list.” But you’re not exactly an expert in fighting terrorism, either; by contrast the Commission was composed of several people who studied the issue from several angles.
Having more spies who don’t speak the local language, eh?
I don’t think she KNEW what she was discussing – who knew???
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Mighty Hypocrite,
May 11th, 2006 at 4:34 pmNow that you’re back, why don’t you answer my question about your sources for Mary Jo Kopechne’s supposed autopsy and cause of death? Since you insisted the information I quote from wikipedia is wrong, you really should provide the name of your supposedly more reliable sources–particularly since Ted Kennedy’s accident is one of you favorite diversionary subjects, or perhaps you really didn’t know what you were discussing, as usual.
Gannon’s comments had to do with large support among locals for terrorism. Freedom of the press, civil liberties and democracy are antidotes for large homegrown support for terrorism. Without the protection of civil liberties, democracy will cease to function. Without civil liberties those in power have the power to punish dissenters and use fear to coerce the suppression of information that would lead to their being voted out of office.
May 12th, 2006 at 12:32 amOur democracy is imperfect. There is widespread corruption and the press and people are complacent. More people are interested in the lives of celebrities than whether their tax dollars are being spent well. But! If it gets too bad… they… can be voted out of office.
Countries that do not protect civil liberties have large parts of society that will aid and abet terrorists. The dispossesed feel terrorism is their only alternative to repressive regimes. Terrorists in America are isolated and have to be very secretive. Now, after 9/11, there is a much higher probablility that someone will report suspicous activities. Terrorists, foreign or domestic ( think of Timothy McVeigh and the white supremist posse movement, or the Ku Klux Klan ) do not have a lot of angry friends around willing to support them. That isn’t the case in countries without protected civil liberties.
Most people in America choose to be ignorant of politics. The majority don’t vote. However, there is always the threat to politicians, that if the population is angered enough, they might.
#92
“And how are the spies going to interact with the local residents and get information from them if they don’t speak and comprehend the local language?”
“Having more spies who don’t speak the local language, eh?”
Those spies are going to need to know that local language and customs just like every other spy that has EVER been trained. There is no way you could send someone into another country like Afghanistan to collect information secretly if those spies didn’t “blend in” with the locals. These people have already been trained by the CIA and are in the field right now. The CIVILIAN linguist army that you rightly propose is a totally seperate issue from the spy business.
May 12th, 2006 at 2:08 pm#94
“Now, after 9/11, there is a much higher probablility that someone will report suspicous activities.”
I see your point and I agree to a certain extent; however, as you pointed out people are complacent in the U.S. and probably won’t know what to look for anyway considering those people who are part of these terrorist cells are well trained in the art of deception and are basically spies.
May 12th, 2006 at 2:15 pmThe CIVILIAN linguist army that you rightly propose is a totally seperate(SIC) issue from the spy business.
Comment by Tracy
I’m glad you agree on the need for people fluent in languages spoken in the Muslim countries. But I never proposed a civilian linguist army; I merely pointed out that the US intelligence agencies are still quite short of agents competent in these languages. (The US State Dept., for example, has been reported to have only 10 employees fluent in Arabic.) I don’t see where you get that as a civilian army.
May 12th, 2006 at 6:08 pm#97
“I merely pointed out that the US intelligence agencies are still quite short of agents competent in these languages.”
The shortage of linguists that we are referring to are not CIA AGENTS. The CIA is not short of agents that have arabic language skills. That are already in the field. The people we are referring to would not be “in the field” and would not be trained CIA spies. They would be civilians working at the NSA. They would be interpreting incoming phone conversations and would basically need to be a small army in order to catch up to the hundreds of hours of untranslated intercepts that have not been translated.
May 15th, 2006 at 12:08 pm