Frist and Hastert Let Vaccine Industry Write Its Own Multi-Billion Dollar Giveaway
Frist and Hastert Let Vaccine Industry Write Its Own Multi-Billion Dollar Giveaway
Last December, Senate Majority Leader Bill First (R-TN) and House Speaker Dennis Hastert inserted a provision in the Defense Appropriations bill that granted vaccine manufactures near-total immunity for injuries or deaths (even in cases of “gross negligence”) caused by their drugs during a viral pandemic, such as an outbreak of the avian flu. The legislation was “worth billions of dollars” to a small group of drug makers.
The provision was inserted in the dead of the night, after House and Senate conferees had agreed the provision would not be included in the bill. According to Roll Call, the brazen move was completely unprecedented.
A new report from Public Citizen reveals that vaccine-industry lobbyists essentially wrote the provision themselves. This morning’s Tennessean reports:
Vaccine industry officials helped shape legislation behind the scenes that Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist secretly amended into a bill to shield them from lawsuits, according to e-mails obtained by a public advocacy group.
E-mails and documents written by a trade group for the vaccine-makers show the organization met privately with Frist’s staff and the White House about measures that would give the industry protection from lawsuits filed by people hurt by the vaccines.
The final language of the provision was exactly what the vaccine manufactures requested in thier emails and meetings.
How did the industry get such VIP treatment from First and Hastert? Generous campaign contributions always help. Another key component: the vaccine industry was represented by a lobbying team that included three former Frist staffers and Dennis Hastert’s son, Joshua Hastert.
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Should we be surprised? There has nothing in the past 6 years that has been perverted and whored out to big biz in some form or fashion.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:33 amif you can, leave the country NOW while you still can! i wont be taking this vacine!
im so sick of drug companies and politicians covering their bottoms while the rest of us suffer at their expense.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:36 amThe Republicans in the Congress are completely corrupt, but they do not even try to hide it anymore! Hastert must be forced to resign!!!
May 8th, 2006 at 10:36 amHow does one insert something intoa bill after agreeing not to? How do the conferencees not just haul off and slug these bastards for lying, manipulation, thuggery, and two-faced backstabbing?
May 8th, 2006 at 10:38 amwe can undoe this when they are gone next year, right?
May 8th, 2006 at 10:39 amWow, violating the public trust AND the Hippocratic Oath at the same time!
A two-fer! You rock, Frist!
May 8th, 2006 at 10:42 amNO lobbyists,no money in it, justice and truth will surface. We ALREADY pay congress to do a job, NOT to suck money from lobbyists.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:42 amThis is -exactly- how the lobbying process works. Legislators on both sides want lobbyists and constituents to provide “suggested language” for the appropriations and procurement process. It makes it so much easier for the staffers to just cut-n-paste the language into the bills.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:47 amWhat is it with Republicans and their sons….
Josh Hastert
May 8th, 2006 at 10:48 amJonah Goldberg
Bill Kristol
George Bush
John Podhertz
Matt Blunt
So in case of a pandemic, which would require a rush to create the vaccination instead of the regular 8+ months, they don’t have to be worried about being sued? Makes sense to me, a few thousand die from a bad batch or two, as opposed to a few million by the time the vaccination is ready?
May 8th, 2006 at 10:52 amAs always, the corruption is insane. I really hope that all these guys, all the Abramoff guys, go to jail. Only by really hurting the source of the corruption: mostly republicans, can we start to change it. The public punishments all also possibly finally show most americans, now too stupid to understand this issue, clearly that there is a problem.
Bono is Brian Peppers!
May 8th, 2006 at 10:54 amDo the f ucking trolls have anything to say about, er excuse, republicans for this? I really would like to hear any exuse at all for their selling out? I hope a republican congressman dies by vaccine. HA!!
What up? What the hell is up? I think we all need to start voting the poorest candidate. The less money they bring into the election, the less bought they are. And to all who voted for Bush, my finger points at you. Thanks for nothing.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:56 am#10 Scary that makes sense to you. And very callous. The problem is the way the bill was written there would be no challenge. Why on earth do you think this was done in the wee hours of the morning? Why would you think it is okay to have drug companies making law? You see what happens when we elect oil men to office.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:00 amsquegeeboo, so I assume you will be one of the first thousand. Okay.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:02 amFrist and Hastert also inserted another little known provision in this bill – - total immunity for the producers and ABC from any bad press and reviews related to the upcoming TV movie, “Fatal Contact: Bird Flu In America.”
May 8th, 2006 at 11:04 amAnd the Constant Gardner was a work of fiction??????
May 8th, 2006 at 11:05 amSqueege -
You’d be singing a different tune if one of your family members were to die in one of those ‘bad batch or two.’
May 8th, 2006 at 11:06 amI’m glad they did it. I hope they accelerate this decline into absolute despotism.
Once enough Americans are personally affected, they may start to wake from thier selfish stupor long enough to make some real changes.
Political Power resides in the Multinational Corporation, not in the People. We have allowed this to happen over the last 60 years. Will it take another 60 years of tyranny before we decide to act?
So I say, do your worst Frist. Do as thou wilt, Hastert. Justice will prevail in the end.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:08 amBobcat
“You’d be singing a different tune if one of your family members were to die in one of those ‘bad batch or two.’”
And you would be singing a different tune if some of your family members died because they couldn’t get the vaccine in time due to buericratic red tape, or excessive testing on the part of the company due to fears from a lawsuit.
Progressive and Proud
May 8th, 2006 at 11:11 am“Scary that makes sense to you. And very callous.”
Whats more callous, allowing a few to die to save many, or allowing many to die to save a few?
Peace is one by war. Peace have NEVER been won by anything else. War sucks that’s a given but when you have lunatics running countries it becomes a neccessary evil. Funny how the “cowboy warhawk president who stood his ground on Iran†WON. The president of Iran is running like a scared schoolboy. First letter in 27 years. Sounds like somebody is folding. Wonder if the thought of being destroyed had anything to do with that. If you crazies had your way we would have tried to understand and love that lunatic dictator and would have gotten nowhere. Luckily we have a president with balls who stood up to him and now hes caving. He is so scared hes actually writing letters begging us to be his friend. Sounds like the hammer is a much better tool than kissing but like Carter and Clinton did. Hooray for presidents with balls.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:11 amHeather – Hitler had balls too. er.. well.. One ball. But hey!
by the way, how many balls do you have?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:13 am#20: Peace is one by war. – - I see you speak the same fractured dialect as the president. No wonder you agree with that maroon.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:17 amPeace is one by war. Peace have NEVER been won by anything else.
simply inane! BTW, how was church yesterday, Heather?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:18 amHeather your comments are completly off topic. As for “POtuSs with balls”, we will see 20, 50, 100 years down the road how GW Bush will be judged.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:20 amAnd you would be singing a different tune if some of your family members died because they couldn’t get the vaccine in time due to buericratic red tape, or excessive testing on the part of the company due to fears from a lawsuit.
Squeege -
First, and least important: learn to spell. That drives me up the wall.
Second: Yea, I’d be upset if there wasn’t enough vaccine to go around. But the vaccine would also be safe. I wouldn’t be taking it thinking, “Hmmmm… this could acutally kill me instead of making me immune.”
I suppose you are for complete deregulation of all companies. You know, so you can eat fruits and veggies covered in fecal matter. And drink water with parasites and bacteria. And breathe air with even more pollutants than today. And put your money in a bank hoping it will still be there later. And get on a plane crossing your fingers that a mechanic has looked it over recently.
Please. Do us a favor. Go buy a hut in a forest somewhere, hunt and gather your food, and leave the rest of us alone.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:20 amHey #20 Heather, you seem to know the contents of this letter, mind if you share it with us? Considering the specifics haven’t been published I guess you have an inside line to the Iranian government. I can guarantee you that they are not scared of ‘the decider’.
Yeah I guess we WON, crises averted. You are ill-informed and seriously misguided.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:21 am#22 See? Anyone who sucks up to the Chimperor Boy King can’t spell or find the right words for something that never made sense to begin with. That’s why people like you, me and Smack have to straighten out Heather’s less that effective form of vocabulary.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:22 amSorry madashell I don’t attend church. I don’t believe in magical invisible people. Funny how the only argument you folks can make is that I made a typo….pathetic. History is not that complicated, there are many books on it. I suggest you folks read some and see for yourself. It’s also funny how none of you can dispute that Bush’s strategy worked and now Iran is scared as hell because the world came together (except Russia and China who are being bribed) and stood up to this lunatic.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:22 amAlso badmoodman, maroon seems like a typo also.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:24 amAnd how in the hell do you freakin’ justify the fact that this country deposed their DEMOCRATICALLY elected president in the 1950’s and replaced him with the SHAH. Do you think they give a rat’s ass about anything other than Iran’s VIRGIN OIL FIELDS!
May 8th, 2006 at 11:24 amHere’s how the bill should read:
“The first set of every batch must be tested on Republicans”. If they’re so sure these companies wont be killing off citizens, surely they’ll be the first to be innoculated, right?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:25 amHow does video-Schiavo diagnoser (and I assume pro-lifer) Doctor Frist reconcile this with his so-called beliefs?
Anyone who trumpets that sanctimonious ‘culture of life’ horseshit should technically be against this, right?
Hippocratic oath notwithstanding…
I hate these money-grubbing hypocrites.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:25 amWell it’s funny that you are claiming victory when CNN reports that the letter doesn’t directly mention the current nuclear situation.
Sounds like another “Mission Accomplished” photo-op on an aircraft carrier to me.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:26 amsorry for going off topic – but Heather’s rhetoric is so unbelievable,
May 8th, 2006 at 11:27 ambobcat
“First, and least important: learn to spell. That drives me up the wall.”
I generally don’t bother when posting on the interwebs, sorry.
“Second: Yea, I’d be upset if there wasn’t enough vaccine to go around. But the vaccine would also be safe. I wouldn’t be taking it thinking”
May 8th, 2006 at 11:28 amI wasn’t refering to it running out. I was refering to it not being released yet due to excessive saftey testing. If its a pandemic, how many hundreds of thousands, if not millions are infected and dying in the US alone, while the drug company won’t release a vaccine that should work, due to lawsuit concerns? If it’s bad enough for a pandemic to happen, the concern should be getting a cure/vaccine out as soon as possible.
I’m not for complete deregulation, however this bill applies during a pandemic. Normal rules of business for the companies that can save millions of lives should be suspended so they can help as many people as possible, as quickly as possible.
Good job madashell, go back to something in the 50’s as if that has anything to do with what’s happening right now. Besides who was president then huh…. I love how you throw out the oil, classic talking points. You would think that after all that Iraq for oil crap you folks spewed, you would find a different tune. Last checked 0 barrels of oil have been shipped to the U.S. from Iraq. Nice try though.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:28 amComment by Heather
Do you actually believe Iran is scared?
You think Iran has been telling the west in public to go screw itself is a sign that he is scared?
For gods sake! He has been openly calling for the destruction of Israel with a big smile on his face and you think that this letter is a sign of fear?
Is there no end to the stupidity? Have you been brain washed by Americas TV shows about gangstas and chest thumping “cowboys” into thinking that acting like cavemen actually works?
Why dont you do a little history studying on WWI and then come back here and explain to us what you learned.
So what peace did the South Africans win through war?…
You are right that humanity has been acting like a bunch of animals for the past 10000 years, but the age of reason was born with America and it has led to science which has shown a NEW WAY to overcome our problems… the days of war, slavery, extermination, aristocracies sending the lower classes off to die in war are no longer viable. There is no more “new continents” to spread to. We must now learn to get along or we are all dead.
“I do not know with what weapons World War III will be fought, but World War IV will be fought with sticks and stones.” Albert Einstein
“God told me to strike at al Qaeda and I struck them, and then he instructed me to strike at Saddam, which I did, and now I am determined to solve the problem in the Middle East.” President George Bush 25 June 2003 Haaretz
I trust Alberts wisdom LOOOOOOOOOOONG before I will accept a single thing from the mouth of dip shits like you and your leader. The days of tribalism are over… from here on out it is all going to be mechanized destruction of our species or peace.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:30 am“The first set of every batch must be tested on Republicansâ€. If they’re so sure these companies wont be killing off citizens, surely they’ll be the first to be innoculated, right?
Furthermore, the Democrats will only receive vaccines after months of testing (not on animals!) and should a bad vaccine be received whomever received it shall litigate the drug companies into the ground.
Rest assured, even with this bill any company that produces bad vaccines would still feel the heat. I think it’s important to realise that they are talking about a pandemic outbreak, and this bill should only go into effect if there is such an outbreak, I have my doubts about whether that would actually happen, or if drug companies will try to abuse the bill.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:32 amOn the fence: Of course it didn’t mention the nuke issue why would it yet. It’s the first letter in 27 years. Of course it’s a victory though, he’s crying uncle. What happened to death to the U.S. and I don’t give a damn what the U.S. wants. Sounds like somebody is getting a little scared. See during Clintons time (i.e. N. Korea). We sent Albright around to hold hands and coddle dictators and they screwed us behind our backs. See this administration (despite obvious problems) doesn’t take any Sh&% from two bit thugs. Kind of like FDR/Kennedy/Reagan.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:33 amI’m not for complete deregulation, however this bill applies during a pandemic. Normal rules of business for the companies that can save millions of lives should be suspended so they can help as many people as possible, as quickly as possible.
Squeege – I’m with you. In EMERGENCY cases, certain restrictions should be suspended.
But even in cases of “gross negligence or gross recklessness?”
If the company making the vaccine screws up royally and kills thousands of people due to gross negligence or gross recklessness, people would have no recourse.
You’re okay with that?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:33 amThere she goes again, spouting nothing but BULL SHIT. If you don’t think what happened forty years ago – better yet 50 years ago, doesn’t have anything to do what is going on today? How utterly narrow minded of you. And you say you KNOW history?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:33 am#27. Heather’s less than effective form of vocabulary. See I picked it up, gang.
Heather, if you had graduated from kindergarten, you’d know that the world is not together as long as the Chimperor Boy King is in his throne of power and is intent on trying to take over the world in order to get his grubby hands on that most precious commodity, OIL.
Tony Blair’s friendship with Chimpy Bush has cost him several elections for his own party and the respect of his people who saw behind the lies and deception. Italy elected a new leader who is opposed to Bush’s way of running things. And not too long ago, the people of France successfully battled a law that would have required companies to fire young workers for no reason. Proof that people power around the world works. It’s a damn shame that not enough is done here, but as Americans, we have to raise some hell in order to get Congress’ attention.
While you pray on your bed thanking God, no wait I forgot, you don’t believe in God. He is to you just an invisible magical person. Your God is the Chimperor Boy King God. While you pray on your bed thanking Bush for giving you the oil to live on, think about the people who won’t have much to live on or trust when quacks like Frist and Hastert and his stupid sons try not to take responsibility for your health when the vaccine company screws you.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:34 amHeather in post 28:
History is not that complicated, there are many books on it. I suggest you folks read some and see for yourself.
Heather in post 36:
Good job madashell, go back to something in the 50’s as if that has anything to do with what’s happening right now.
Which is it? Pay attention to history or not?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:35 amThis is another good example of how our current re-thug-lican government wants to eliminate those who don’t rake in 8 figure incomes.
They propegate destruction and kill innocent people thru their governmental actions.
Ship ALL of them to a very small island with very little food and water.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:35 amLet them kill one another to survive.
Thank you JIMBO!
May 8th, 2006 at 11:35 amHey Gerald Gibson, I’m a history Professor and you don’t have a clue what you talking about. And by the way he is no more my leader than he is yours. Since ingnorance is bliss you must be the happiest guy on earth.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:36 amHey Gerald Gibson, I’m a history Professor and you don’t have a clue what you talking about. And by the way he is no more my leader than he is yours. Since ingnorance is bliss you must be the happiest guy on earth..
May 8th, 2006 at 11:37 amHeather: Also badmoodman, maroon seems like a typo also. – - Only to the uninformed, “Heather.”
May 8th, 2006 at 11:37 amHistory Professor???? – YEAH I BELIEVE THAT!
May 8th, 2006 at 11:38 am#49 – I think Mighty Hag changed his name to Heather.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:39 amMadashell- You’re welcome. ;)
May 8th, 2006 at 11:39 amYou can be ANYONE you want to be on the internet. If heather is truly a professor of history – then she probably teaches at BOB JONES UNIVERSITY.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:39 amHey Gerald Gibson, I’m a history Professor and you don’t have a clue what you talking about. And by the way he is no more my leader than he is yours. Since ingnorance is bliss you must be the happiest guy on earth.
Comment by Heather
You are a history teacher yet you back up your claims with slanders?
Hehehe ya right… I knew more about history when I was 15 than you know now.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:40 amSo, wait one minute
They can inject you with, say, HIV and get away with it so long as they phrase it as a vaccine during a pandemic? And lets not even get into “If the vaccine is actually just sugar water and we kinda hope none of you are diabetic.”
And hell, just where is the dividing line between a pandemic and a few people getting sick anyway?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:40 amHeather: “I’m a history Professor…” – - Uh huh, and I’m Marshall McLuhan.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:41 amBush is the Worse President we every had. He went into Iraq for OIL and to make his buddies richer. Old Bushie had four failed businesses. He is a total failer.
He gets an F, F, F, for a grade.
Back on subject First and Hastert are the worse corrupt crooks around. The Republican are alway sticking something in the bill in the middle of the night. They are so dishonest.
I will take my chances on not taking this vaccine.
The Dems need to take both houses back in November.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:41 amLet’s test the arrogance vaccine on squegeeboohoo.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:41 amsqueegeeboi doesn’t get it. The government is the one who will decide whether or not a vaccination program is considered a “pandemic.” It will be easy for them to dismiss lawsuits against drug companies simply by declaring a “flu pandemic,” “an avian bird flu pandemic,” etc. Remember, these are the same incompetent leaders who have declared a “war on terror” and now have laws that subvert the U.S. Constitution because we are “at war.” This despite the fact that they have admitted the war on terror will never end.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:42 am#10 – Makes sense to me, a few thousand die from a bad batch or two, as opposed to a few million by the time the vaccination is ready?
Comment by squegeeboo
Ouch, Squeegy. Just try not to sound so enthusiastic about it, okay?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:43 amJIMBO JIMBO nice try who was just elected in Germany. Hmm a Bush supporter. Nice try though bud, go country by country and see whose on board with the U.S. Not to mention that besides the dictatorships in Russia and China the rest of the world is either in front of us or right next to us on the issue of Iran. You folks need to spend less time reading Michael Moore and more time doing your own research. What’s it like living life so angry, it must really be terrible. And the oil thing is so tired, theres no proof for any of it. And don’t point to the Michael Moore conspiracy about a pipeline in Afghanistan because that was Clintons project.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:43 amHeather, if you’re a history professor, then how come the right-wing assholes like David Horowitz, want professors wiped from the earth. But a bigger question is that
May 8th, 2006 at 11:45 amwhy are you even a professor. A pastry chef would have been a more effective postion for you. Better yet, how about a Sanitation expert with the kind of garbage you’re spewing out that has no worth to anyone.
I know that some of you will agree with me, and some won’t. I think that this is a good example of why Lobbying needs to be regulated better. As always those with the connections and the money, get what they want. We as the american people elect our government officials to serve us, not corporations.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:45 amJIMBO JIMBO nice try who was just elected in Germany. Hmm a Bush supporter. Nice try though bud, go country by country and see whose on board with the U.S. Not to mention that besides the dictatorships in Russia and China the rest of the world is either in front of us or right next to us on the issue of Iran. You folks need to spend less time reading Michael Moore and more time doing your own research. What’s it like living life so angry, it must really be terrible. And the oil thing is so tired, theres no proof for any of it. And don’t point to the Michael Moore conspiracy about a pipeline in Afghanistan because that was Clintons project.
Comment by Heather
Heh it is funny how easy it is to tell the difference between people that hang out here and actually attempt to debate like sqeegeeboo as compared to those that obviously have Rush Limbaugh talking points in the back of their heads and then pop on here thinking they got an edge…
YOU name the countries that support war with Iran… go ahead…
And by the way when are you chicken hawks going to summon up the courage to tell your nazi brothers in the republican party that we are not going to let the BushCo relationship with the Saudi Royals to prevent us from get vengence for the Saudi Arabian attack on America on 911? Last I saw instead of bombing the 911 attackers Bush was holding hands with them down on his ranch… and you call yourselves Americans???? You hold hands with the enemy? And you are the “tuff” ones right? So did the Saudis scare you into not attacking them after 911 or did they pay off the BushCo yet again to look the other way?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:50 amWhat is it with Republicans and their sons….
Josh Hastert
Jonah Goldberg
Bill Kristol
George Bush
John Podhertz
Matt Blunt
Comment by lib4 #9
lib4,
…the right wing uuber-conservative inbreds are proof positive…
…that criminality, mendacity, and psychosis is hereditary…
…time for a purge…
…’cause i don’t know about you?
…but I’m tired of eating cake…
…where’s that dam*ed Madame de’ Farge when you need her?
May 8th, 2006 at 11:50 amWell folks you’ve been fun(ny). Good luck in November, I don’t doubt you’ll do well. Absolute power corrupts abolutely. Just like in 94′ when the Dems were knee deep in Banking/Post Office scandal just to mention a few. The culture of corruption isn’t a Republican thing it’s a political thing that becomes either party when they gain control of too much of Washington. My advice is that all of you do some of your own research. Especially the oil thing because that’s the most tired conspiracy around right now. We have not recieved a drop of oil from Iraq. And even if we were trying to protect future oil sources it’s only becuse you folks won’t conserve. How many of you drive hybrids. If you don’t then YOUR THE PROBLEM. Also stop being so angry life is too short to be bitter. It’s a wonderful amazing world, go to a park or something and try and find some joy in your lives. Tootles
May 8th, 2006 at 11:50 amHeather – If you’re a professor then you have published literature.
Name for us one of your published works.
If you can’t do that then summerize your dissertation or give us your thesis statement.
You opened the door. now prove it or be labled a liar and uber-Troll.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:51 amHeather, uh excuse me, but who had business dealings with Adolf Hitler? Prescott Bush. You know, the Chimperor Boy King God’s GRANDPA. Wow, you must really love Bush. After all, like Hitler, he stands for world domination and destroying any thing or anyone who believes in freedom, peace and a stable way of living without political and corporate corruption. But at least you’re happy to live in a world where that kind of corruption exists. Good 4 U. Just don’t come crying like a infant child when Bush’s dream of WW3 begins and no one worth living is left to help you out.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:51 amFROM A REAL PROFESSOR:
“Bush’s threatened aggression against Iran is no more about nuclear weapons than Iraq was about weapons of mass destruction. It is propelled by an agenda of the neo-conservatives and Washington’s pro-Israel lobby. The US seeks to control the entire Middle East and its valuable oil deposits by changing Iran’s regime, installing a US-friendly government, and building permanent US military bases.”
Marjorie Cohn is a professor at Thomas Jefferson School of Law, President-elect of the National Lawyers Guild, and the US representative to the executive committee of the American Association of Jurists.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:53 amI know that some of you will agree with me, and some won’t. I think that this is a good example of why Lobbying needs to be regulated better. As always those with the connections and the money, get what they want. We as the american people elect our government officials to serve us, not corporations.
Comment by Krazny
Lobbyists should be just like someone submiting a patent… you pay some money to submit it… it is made public and posted on the Internet for all to see and comment on in a comments section and you have to defend it publically. It would be ILLEGAL for any politician to have closed door meetings with any lobbyist. And ummm .. inserting anything secretly in any bill would be a violation of federal law.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:53 amHeather.
Is it that easy to become a History professor in America? Try reading up on Ghandi, America’s civil rights movement, or the death of Apartheid South Africa.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:53 amSqueg – Way too simplistic. A few die for many? That is a nice one-liner but the drug companies are not to be making laws. You should know that. Again, I don’t trust bills written in the dead of night while our senator is on the phone with them as they type the language. Do you really think that they would have America’s best interests at heart? Are they setting up for something already? I don’t think the drug companies should have an out. If they screw up, they should be put under the lamp, so to speak, because you and I would. I would love to start a catering business knowing that I had a free pass from bankruptcy for a year or two.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:55 amAlright had to respond to JIMBO who is obviously still in high school. We never advocated going to war with Iran we said nothing is off the table which is what Presidents have been saying for over 50 years. Last I checked not a single Democrat said we should take it off the table. Now to answer your question the countries that are with us on Iran include all major countries except China and Russia. That’s really simple I shouldn’t have to tell you that. Oh wait I understand you heard Cindy Sheehan say we were goin to Nuke Iran and you thought she was anything but a puppet with her head up her ass. I’m going to come back in a week and I expect you all to read a few history books and maybe some newspapers (black and white things you see people reading on subways). That’s your assignment. It’s more fun to debate people with some knowledge….really it is. Have a wonderful day in this wonderful country.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:55 amOh, and Heather, I read Michael Moore, Sarah Vowell, Walter Cronkite, Hunter S. Thompson, Harlan Ellison, Amy Goodman, etc. See I get my info and facts from real people. Not from those who write fiction like Bush, Horowitz or James Frey.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
May 8th, 2006 at 11:56 amBruce I have read lots on the civil rights movement, and thank god Republicans made it happen.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:57 amHeather, you are a republican ass who thinks she/he is smarter than they really are. Who are you trying to convince of your brilliance? Or maybe, why are trying to convince yourself that everyone is stupid. C’mon you are obvious.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:58 amHeather – If you’re a professor then you have published literature.
Name for us one of your published works.
If you can’t do that then summerize your dissertation or give us your thesis statement.
You opened the door. now prove it or be labled a liar and uber-Troll.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:58 amComment by madashell #68
madashell,
I’m gonna go out on a limb and say that we won’t be seeing YOU on any MSM talk shows…
…and that’s too bad…
…TRUTH…
…the inbred Bushite’s kryptonite…
May 8th, 2006 at 11:59 amJimbo Jimbo Jimbo, Michael Moore is a real source for your information. That explains everything. Even the producer of outfoxed and salon.com said his movie is full of factual errors. But hey keep it up the more Moore the less victories for Dems.
May 8th, 2006 at 11:59 amBruce I have read lots on the civil rights movement, and thank god Republicans made it happen.
Comment by Heather
Actually demcrats did.. that is why the KKK racists left the democratic party and joined the republicans… that is why we got a bunch or racists southern baptists in the republican party instead of real republicans.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:00 pmHeather, I got a B.A. in Media Communications. I am a freelance writer
who worked in media for awhile before I saw the light and got out of that crap. Oh, and it pays better. :)
You haven’t come up with an answer for the facts we gave you because you know
May 8th, 2006 at 12:01 pmwe are right and you are wrong. Admit it, kid.
[...] The White House and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) conspired with drug industry lobbyists last December to craft a sweeping liability provision that grants vaccine manufacturers near-total immunity for injuries or death, even in cases of gross negligence or gross recklessness, according to a report issued today by Public Citizen. [...]
May 8th, 2006 at 12:02 pm[...] The White House and Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-Tenn.) conspired with drug industry lobbyists last December to craft a sweeping liability provision that grants vaccine manufacturers near-total immunity for injuries or death, even in cases of gross negligence or gross recklessness, according to a report issued today by Public Citizen. [...]
May 8th, 2006 at 12:02 pm#40 bobcat
“I’m with you. In EMERGENCY cases, certain restrictions should be suspended.
But even in cases of “gross negligence or gross recklessness?†”
Nope, that part did bother me.
#59 zookeeper
“Ouch, Squeegy. Just try not to sound so enthusiastic about it, okay?”
Coming from the woman who threated to wall me in…..
#71 Progressive and proud
May 8th, 2006 at 12:02 pm“I would love to start a catering business knowing that I had a free pass from bankruptcy for a year or two.”
This applies during pandemics only. Care to explain how a catering business is ever invloved in something as horrible as a pandemic?
“OOOhhhh noooo, were out of waffles nation wide! Quick, let caters do whatever they need to, so this crisis can be averted……. “(sorry, couldn’t help myself)
That would not be a bad idea Gerald, at the very least, the items they are lobbying for should be in the public domain. The government was meant to be by the people for the people. It would be nice if we could all see what the lobbyists are pushing for. It would be a simple matter to add something to congress.org. Then we the people could read through and comment on the things that lobbyists are pushing for. I also think, that ex-politicians, and their family memebers should not be allowed to work as lobbyists.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:03 pmbig papa – the truth – what does one do with it? Sometimes I feel its a curse.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:03 pm#79 HEH,HEH, HEH. You really must be smoking on the ganja for that kind of statement. Go back and smoke some more. leave the conversation to professionals.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:03 pm#59 zookeeper
“Ouch, Squeegy. Just try not to sound so enthusiastic about it, okay?â€
Coming from the woman who threated to wall me in…..
Comment by squegeeboo — May 8, 2006 @ 12:02 pm
she would toss over a couple of waffles for you now and then.
=P
May 8th, 2006 at 12:05 pmbusiness is ever invloved in something as horrible as a pandemic?
“OOOhhhh noooo, were out of waffles nation wide! Quick, let caters do whatever they need to, so this crisis can be averted……. “(sorry, couldn’t help myself)
Comment by squegeeboo
Hahhaa good one… I generally agree that you cannot let the emotional masses try to pass blame for every single mistake made by a company… but doesnt it give you an uneasy feeling about what is really in that bill if it was done in the dead of night against the wishes of the open congress? If it cannot be reasoned with congress then either congress is worthless or there is a sleezy deal going down.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:06 pmOIL AND PHARMACEUTICAL COMPANIES, along with ARMS DEALERS = one in the same.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:07 pmHeather seeks to avoid my post challenging her assertion that she is a History Professor.
Heather, I am inclined to call you a liar but after reading some of your previous posts here, I lean toward the conclusion that you may instead be sociopathic. I have seen no logical refutation of facts presented on any topic on these forums.
I fear for our nation with people like you in it. I will not deny that I will rejoice at your intellectual deflowering, when the shit hits the fan in this country.
I advise you to wear your Bush/Cheney sticker proudly and prominantly. While you’re at it, you could paint a bullseye on yourself.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:07 pmHeather I can’t believe you are a History Professor. Where do you teach? Your poor students. Do you teach the Corrupt Right Wing propaganda? You must be one of the 32% nuts that support Old Bushie.
IN November the Dems will take over both Houses. We can get our country back on track.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:12 pmGood job madashell, go back to something in the 50’s as if that has anything to do with what’s happening right now. Besides who was president then huh….
your answer, Heather.
“It’s deja vu with the 1953 CIA coup that removed the democratically-elected Mossadeq and installed the tyrannical Shah of Iran. After 25 years of tyranny, the Iranian people rose up and removed the Shah from power, replacing him with Ayatollah Khomeini’s theocracy. The chickens came home to roost.”
and your point about it not being about oil -
“The US seeks to control the entire Middle East and its valuable oil deposits by changing Iran’s regime, installing a US-friendly government, and building permanent US military bases.”
again written by a REAL PROFESSOR
May 8th, 2006 at 12:13 pm#87 Krazny
she did mention sliding flat foods under the door now and again, so i guess waffles would fit the description.
#88 Gerald
If it cannot be reasoned with congress then either congress is worthless or there is a sleezy deal going down.
I would say its almost always one or a combo of both.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:14 pmSure it gives me an uneasy feeling, but that said, it makes sense to provide companies such as pharmicuticals added protection during a major disaster that they can have a positive effect on, to insure a quick response from them.
big papa – the truth – what does one do with it? Sometimes I feel its a curse.
Comment by madashell #85
madashell,
…keep it with you, and share it often…
…the “curse” is on those who choose to ignore it…
…when one does the “right” thing…
…good things happen…
May 8th, 2006 at 12:15 pmThe part I would want to know Squegee, is what is the definition of a “disaster”? As the saying goes the devil is in the details.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:16 pmthank you big papa :)
May 8th, 2006 at 12:17 pmDid you hear what’s in the “Iran Freedom Support Act” that was passed last week? Here is the operative sentence:
[b]
“The Congress declares that it is the policy of the United States to deny Iran the ability to support acts of international terrorism . . . by limiting the development of Iran’s ability to explore for, extract, refine, or transport by pipeline petroleum resources.†[/b]
Operation Iranian Liberation (OIL).
May 8th, 2006 at 12:19 pmThat is all this admin. wants is OIL.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:22 pm#83 – Coming from the woman who threated to wall me in…..
Squeegy, closets have hollow-core doors, if you ate all the flat foods slid under the door, you might have the strength to break out. ;)
Note to self: Squeegy has a fairly decent memory…
#87 – Krazny, I hadn’t thought of waffles…
May 8th, 2006 at 12:28 pmKrazy
“what is the definition of a “disasterâ€? ”
Democrats regaining the congress :)
What is the definition of gross incompetance, 1/10 die from the innoculation, or 1/100,000? Also worrying if they slide the scale to far towards the low end.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:30 pmSquegee
I worry that they will use the term disaster, to mean that a few hundred people in a rural area get sick, get innoculated, then several die from a bad batch. But since it was a “disaster” the drug companies aren’t held responsible. I know you understand but chose to misrepresent my post. As for the dems getting congress, they can’t do any worse then the republicans.
Personally I have no love for any company that puts profits before people. Having seen relatives and friends with degenerative diseases such as Chrones, or MS. I dislike the fact, that with such diseases, unless you have really good insurance, you are either paying alot to stay alive and healthy, or living in a perpetual state of despair. I realize that companies expect to recoup profits from the R&D, but not before human lives.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:36 pmNormal rules of business for the companies that can save millions of lives should be suspended so they can help as many people as possible, as quickly as possible.
Comment by squegeeboo #35
queasybooger,
You’re a lying sack of sh*t…
…that statement above is valid only until…
…it’s one of your (heaven forbid you should have any) children/loved ones…
…who die as a result of that company’s negligence…
…you’d be seeking legal advice on how to sue…
…quicker than that di*khead Bushiva could read “My Pet Goat”…
…strike that…
…I mean’t Laura…(she’s the reader in the family, when she’s not cooking Meth)…
May 8th, 2006 at 12:41 pmThe top sources of US crude oil imports for February were Mexico (1.774 million barrels per day), Canada (1.710 million barrels per day), Saudi Arabia (1.418 million barrels per day), Nigeria (1.342 million barrels per day), and Venezuela (1.178 million barrels per day). The rest of the top ten sources, in order, were Angola (0.464 million barrels per day), Iraq (0.450 million barrels per day),
Heather the “HISTORY” and not OIL professor said;
“We have not imported one drop of oil from Iraq”
Care to Reword that Statement Professor Heather?
May 8th, 2006 at 12:42 pmhttp://www.eia.doe.gov/pub/oil_gas/petroleum/data_publications/company_level_imports/current/import.html
Heather its called Google. It’s not a stuffy old book,
Here I give it for you to Read yourself.
Now please go back to Worldnutdaily with Joe Farrah and the other Conspiracy experts, Thx =)
Don’t go away mad, just go.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:44 pmSo in case of a pandemic, which would require a rush to create the vaccination instead of the regular 8+ months, they don’t have to be worried about being sued? Makes sense to me, a few thousand die from a bad batch or two, as opposed to a few million by the time the vaccination is ready?
Comment by squegeeboo — May 8, 2006 @ 10:52 am
squegeeboo – that argument is just a smokescreen. The real reason Hastert and Frist inserted this provision in the dead of night is to protect the drug companies from any future liability related to the mounting evidence of childhood neurological disorders caused by mercury-based vaccine preservatives. See this for starters:
http://www.boston.com/news/globe/editorial_opinion/oped/articles/2005/07/01/autism_mercury_and_politics/
May 8th, 2006 at 12:44 pmHeather……
WHO IS PAYING YOUR SALARY
Heritage Foundation
The RNC
American Enterprise Institute
Hoover Institution
or any other Richard Scaife funded organization
come on be honest……I bet we wont see a post from you after 5:01 pm now will we….
I can tell your level of intellectual competence when you pull the Cindy Sheenan/Michael Moore card
Cant Republicans come up with something better than POWERLESS CITIZENS to make their point that the left is “loony and unhinged”…..
Also Russia, who you claim is “on our side”, has offered to monitor and provided enriched uranium for the Iraninans to use….gosh that doesnt seem too Pro-USA if you ask me…
read it for yourself there Heather……
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/04/22/world/main1533978.shtml
May 8th, 2006 at 12:46 pmKrazny
“I realize that companies expect to recoup profits from the R&D, but not before human lives.”
Then they wouldn’t do R&D, pharm companies do what they do for profit, not to save people. It’s sad thats how it works, but it does work.
big papa
May 8th, 2006 at 12:49 pm“it’s one of your (heaven forbid you should have any) children/loved ones who die as a result of that company’s negligence you’d be seeking legal advice on how to sue…”
And what happens when your loved ones die due to over-caution on the part of the pharm. company? During something like a pandemic there has to be some level of acceptable deaths from innuculation. If the disease is killing 1/100 people in the US, then 1/10,000 deaths from innoculation might be acceptable, even though with anouther 3 months of testing it could have been 1/100,000. Does it suck when its some one you know/love? Sure, but their that much more likely to die with out the innoculation.
ATTENTION TP posters
Heather is on her lunch break with the other Heritage Foundation Republlican Robots
Her last post was at 11:59 am….she will be back soon…..
Thanks
May 8th, 2006 at 12:50 pmCorporate greed has no limits.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:51 pmNo profit margin is ‘enough’.
Corporate Citizenship has devoured private rights.
Corporate citizenship allows pharmaceutical interests
TO WRITE OUR LAWS FOR US!
Frist can stick that legislation right back where it came from…
The United Corporations of America.
Hey Bill, how’s your SEC investigation going?
Krazny
“I realize that companies expect to recoup profits from the R&D, but not before human lives.â€
Then they wouldn’t do R&D, pharm companies do what they do for profit, not to save people. It’s sad thats how it works, but it does work.
Comment by squegeeboo
Sounds like as good of a reason as any for the American people to setup a nonprofit and hire the scientists and just make the drugs ourselves. WE THE PEOPLE just want ot save people NOT make profits. We are not talking about luxury items here we are talking about peoples lives.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:51 pmYa know these Pro-bush remind me of the ‘Propaganda’ experts from BSI.
~~
http://www.bluestarpr.com/cgi-bin/mt-comments.cgi?entry_id=151
~~~
From the Israel Propaganda Squad BSI
Heres HOW they operate, They CREATE trouble. Look at what this poster says;
By puting these up on my campus, I will only draw more attention to the Green Party’s divestment stance. This will give them greater credibility among arab and muslim students, potentially lighting a powder keg where prior to this there were just a few lunatics ranting.
Only use this to target Green Party membership and support! This is not a poster for every campus.
~~~~~~~~~~~~
So Anyone here thats a College Student, Heres the M.O. for these People. They are Liars and Propagandists and they Intentionally create problems at campuses across the country. Specifically targeting the Arab and Muslim students here in America.
Heather could take some lessons.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:52 pmCant Republicans come up with something better than POWERLESS CITIZENS to make their point that the left is “loony and unhingedâ€â€¦..
Also Russia, who you claim is “on our sideâ€, has offered to monitor and provided enriched uranium for the Iraninans to use….gosh that doesnt seem too Pro-USA if you ask me…
read it for yourself there Heather……
http://www.cbsnews.com/ stories/ 2006/ 04/ 22/ world/ main1533978.shtml
NO DONT READ IT HEATHER!
Your brain will be violated by the truth!
May 8th, 2006 at 12:53 pmThen they wouldn’t do R&D, pharm companies do what they do for profit, not to save people. It’s sad thats how it works, but it does work.
Comment by squegeeboo — May 8, 2006 @ 12:49 pm
Then we need a change of how research is funded. I am not as callous as you with human life.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:54 pm#105 – bwbray, I think you’re closer to Frist’s actual intention than anyone else. These people don’t give a shit about any pandemic, they’re only interested in the bottom line. They don’t look any further than that. My 23 year old son is autistic. I don’t know if it was caused by his vaccinactions, but if it was, I’d like to know there is some recourse for him.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:54 pm#105 Exactly correct. Like I say, when provisions are inserted into a bill in the dead of night, it is nefarious. That is common (I wish) sense. Thank you for your post.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:54 pmPersonally I have no love for any company that puts profits before people. Having seen relatives and friends with degenerative diseases such as Chrones, or MS. I dislike the fact, that with such diseases, unless you have really good insurance, you are either paying alot to stay alive and healthy, or living in a perpetual state of despair. I realize that companies expect to recoup profits from the R&D, but not before human lives.
I understand your position, but if there is not any profit in pharmacutical development than there will be less research done and therefore less solutions found. It is the profit that drives businesses to develop new drugs. Without the profit motive there wouldn’t be may not be many of the treatments for diseases such as the ones you mentioned. One solution would be more federal aid for drug research. I prefer the current private system.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:55 pmLike I say, when provisions are inserted into a bill in the dead of night, it is nefarious. That is common (I wish) sense. Thank you for your post.
Comment by progressive and proud — May 8, 2006 @ 12:54 pm
I don’t know. Maybe they’re just vampires. Not the blood sucking kind, but the unethical, hypocritical, trust-sucking kind.
May 8th, 2006 at 12:59 pmOnly idiots would take the bird flu vaccine anyway. How fitting, ABC is airing a stupid movie about this nonsense tomorrow night.
Get under the bed stupid republicans, the big bad bird flu is coming to get you.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:00 pmI’m lighting another smoke now, my government says its cool to smoke.
alot of research is done at the university level. It is often federally funded, and done by people who have a decent interest in saving lives. One solution may be to further fund this type of research, and then license the results in government production.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:02 pm#107 – And what happens when your loved ones die due to over-caution on the part of the pharm. company?
Does it suck when its some one you know/love? Sure, but their that much more likely to die with out the innoculation.
Comment by squegeeboo
What if the drug companies f*ck up and the person/people don’t die?
May 8th, 2006 at 1:03 pmThere are worse things than death.
Does it suck when its some one you know/love? Sure, but their that much more likely to die with out the innoculation.
Comment by squegeeboo #107
queasy,
…releasing them from ANY liability…
…invites corner cutting, incompetence, outright fraud and likely disaster…
…haven’t you learned anything since bushiva’s been in office?
…And it’s “they’re” dam*mit… THEY ARE = “THEY’RE”…
May 8th, 2006 at 1:03 pmI understand your position, but if there is not any profit in pharmacutical development than there will be less research done and therefore less solutions found. It is the profit that drives businesses to develop new drugs. Without the profit motive there wouldn’t be may not be many of the treatments for diseases such as the ones you mentioned. One solution would be more federal aid for drug research. I prefer the current private system.
Comment by bhealy
Then we need American backed nonprofits that do it…. then we can license them out to the distribution companies. We are already paying the cost of R&D when the drug companies start charging for the drugs… so we should just pay it up front in a nonprofit and then let the “distribution” companies make the pills and package them and sell them for as little as possible… that way we get the drugs and we own them so we can license them out for as little as possible. The scientists are the REAL ones that are making these drugs not the business people that decide to lobby congress and charge profit laden costs for the drugs. The scientists would work for a nonprofit just as readily as they would for a forprofit company.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:04 pmbig papa
No need…to…comment…on my grammer…structure…or lack there off…when you use an excessive amount of…elipises…and…returns…and bold…font
“…invites corner cutting, incompetence, outright fraud and likely disaster…”
May 8th, 2006 at 1:15 pmLikely disaster? We’re already in a pandemic, anything to get out of it is worth a shot. fraud and incompetence, possibly. Corner cutting? Thats sort of the point, cut out a month or two of testing so people can get innoculated sooner.
#83 As stated before, what is a pandemic and who says? I will repeat ad nauseum, bill provisions snuck in in the dead of night are nefarious merely by their method of implimentation alone.
I’m missing the gridlock of republicans and democrats spending hours upon hours of debate until the meet. I really do miss the 200 year old system that has served us well. We as Americans will complain about everything and that is that and I too, complained about the gridlock, but I see that it was quite necessary and just pure American.
Squeg – I know you are one of the good guys, so to speak. I know you want what we all do and I understand that our main difference is the way we get there. That, my friend, is what I miss in Congress/Senate. I think what you offer to us here is invaluable and very appreciated. Thanks for the back and forth of important issues, it is the American way.
So, thanks but your wrong ;-) I couldn’t help it either. And BTW, I make fabulous waffles; so good they could be an asset to Homeland Security.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:18 pmI am at a complete loss, I cannot understand how Congressmen and Senators can debate, discuss ,obfusticate, beat themselves on the breast for days or weeks to pass a sp ending bill. Then somehow all kinds of additional spending, favors, tax breaks seem to show up in the final approved version of the Bill or Law.Then, in the Huffpost I read the Leader of the House and Senate saw to it that these items were added after all of histonic by both House has died down and that only a few people evan seem only mildly upset.The worst part of this is the Bills the leaders select only are those in the “must pass” classification Defense etc.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:21 pmI am at a complete loss, I cannot understand how Congressmen and Senators can debate, discuss ,obfusticate, beat themselves on the breast for days or weeks to pass a sp ending bill. Then somehow all kinds of additional spending, favors, tax breaks seem to show up in the final approved version of the Bill or Law.Then, in the Huffpost I read the Leader of the House and Senate saw to it that these items were added after all of histonic by both House has died down and that only a few people evan seem only mildly upset.The worst part of this is the Bills the leaders select only are those in the “must pass” classification Defense etc.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:22 pm#117 You know, here in TN nobody has seen Fristula in daylight hours. Damn.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:24 pmNatural Resources: What does this term mean, Heather? Let’s chat. When the timber industry wants to cut into OUR national forests, they have to put money into the treasury as those trees belong to the people, to you and me, US. When companies want to pump oil from the ground, they used to have to pay the treasury – that’s our oil – the time has run out on that give away. The air waves were ours until the Reagan administration appointed their guy as head of the FCC who got rid of that annoying Fairness Doctrine (look that one up). People around the world do not like us because we have the technology to take ore from the ground, pump oil, slash their forests and take their natural resources while putting nothing into their treasury – that’s why we put puppet regimes into place – someone who can be paid off to strip his or her country – while we leave their country a mess. That is why more than a few people around the world do not like us, it’s not jealousy.
Who would know this better than you, Heather? I’m shocked at how ignorant you are in all aspects of History. Fifty years ago didn’t matter? I have never met an Historian who would make such an uninformed, outrageous claim.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:25 pm#124 progressive and proud
“Squeg – I know you are one of the good guys, so to speak. I know you want what we all do and I understand that our main difference is the way we get there. That, my friend, is what I miss in Congress/Senate. I think what you offer to us here is invaluable and very appreciated. Thanks for the back and forth of important issues, it is the American way.
So, thanks but your wrong ;-) I couldn’t help it either. And BTW, I make fabulous waffles; so good they could be an asset to Homeland Security. ”
MMmm, waffles, espically when you wrap it around a stick of butter, thats the best.
I have a co-worker who votes for whichever party is out of power, just to keep gridlock going as much as possible. He feel’s the gov’t doing anything tends to be bad in the end. Sometimes his view on politics makes the most sense of all.
Thanks for understanding conservatives can be opponents and not enemies, I look forward to more back and forths between us, even though I will enivitably win them all.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:26 pmNothing wrong with this legislation. You are all nutjobs for suggesting so. Keep drinking your liberal Kool Aid. You know, the kind with all of the ilicit drugs in it.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:29 pm#126 Exactly why we cannot have one party in Senate, House and WH. I saw this happening long ago, I just never really thought it could get so bad. This November will be up and down. I am in TN, one the reddest states around and no one is happy. Even on a local level, they are voting out repubs and our Supreme Court just ruled in favor of term limits, which actually happened to pass years ago. No one really cared and just ignored them. It was a republican who thought up that bill long ago to get elected. Oh daddy, but now they are to be implemented. Our city commissioners are about 11 less now. Some of us have to learn how to write now. HA!
May 8th, 2006 at 1:29 pmAnd of course, to prove no wrong doing, all of you who agree with this provision along with Frist will be the first volunteers in line to test the new vaccine!!
May 8th, 2006 at 1:30 pmWhether vaccine producers should be protected during a pandemic is a secondary issue–even the provision permitting “gross negligence.” The primary issue is whether the leadership of congress can legally/constitutionally add text to a bill that has been rejected by a vote of the body without invalidating the law.
The vaccine manufacturers’ immunity bill is not an isolated instance. The same thing happened with the Budget a few months ago. Frist (I think?) added language that was not approved by the house and the leadership certified the text and forwarded it to the President who signed it.
Another House practice that is nearly the same thing is publishing the text of a Bill only minutes before it is to be voted on. Representative Brian Baird, (Democrat, Washington State) has introduced a bill that requires all legislation to be available for reading 72 hours before being voted on. Baird’s Bill, unlike the current regulation, requires a super majority (60%) to waive this 72 hour waiting period. This bill deserves our support. For more info, see
If the minority party does not sue over these issues, they deserve what happens to them.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:34 pmThis is the same argument about killing convicts. It is worth a few innocent men and women as long as kill a bunch of bad guys. I don’t and never will buy that argument. No one life is to be brushed aside or used as fodder or as an experiment. With something so valuable as life, let’s get it right. Frist is a doctor and since he will not run again and will not win the presidency, he will have to practice again. You can’t let foxes run the henhouse.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:38 pmFranklogan – sad that we would have to even consider a bill like that, but I’ll start writing my rep today in favor of that! Thank you.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:38 pmAny facts available on the custody and metadata of the emails? The timestamps and revisions should prove useful in firming up the case against Frist and Hastert, et.al.
Styve
May 8th, 2006 at 1:41 pmAnd if Frist and Hastert had not discussed vaccibes with the Pharma industry, TP and it’s whiney minions would be ratcheting up the “debate” with hideaous shrieks of “Those ELITIST Repubs are not doing everything possible to prepare for a possible ‘avian flu’ pandemic…..” I can hear the Katrina comparisons already from our national prog whiners.
In typical prog fashion, your ideology offers NO SOLUTIONS – BUT TP progs are the BEST whiners $$$ can buy. (Mom said everyone was good at something….)
May 8th, 2006 at 1:45 pmWe’re already in a pandemic, anything to get out of it is worth a shot.
Comment by squegeeboo #123
queasy,
The very fact that we’re havng this conversation means that we’re well ahead of the “pandemic” (especially here in America)…
…more ALARM! ALARM! WARNING! WARNING!…
…scare tactics from the right if you ask me…
…scientifically speaking…
…there are already any number of flu vaccines already available, requiring only slight modification and testing to identify and isolate the “bird” flu variety…
…why do you think the Bio-Port Company in Lansing…
…the ONLY company in America that manufactures the vaccine…
…and a subsidiary/holding of?
…the Carlyle Group…
…already has permission to manufacture and sell doses?
…”Wake up queasy, I think I got somehing to say to you”…
May 8th, 2006 at 1:48 pm(Mom said everyone was good at something….)
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 8, 2006 @ 1:45 pm
That was only to make you feel better about being such a loser.
But, I’m still waiting for your dissertation on how multiple law enforcement agencies impact our incarceration rate in this country… Put your mouth where your mouth is for a change.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:50 pmGet ready for forced innoculations with tainted vaccines.
It is all part of the Neocon agenda…a New World Order with less than a billion inhabitants and a lot of corpses to bury.
Republicans are part of this scam and are all traitors to the US.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:50 pmComment by mighty aphrodite
WTF are you talking about? What part of having a reasoned debated IN THE OPEN during the day with ALL of congress attending do you not understand?
May 8th, 2006 at 1:50 pmAs someone who has worked in pharmaceutical reaearch, I’d like add a couple thoughts.
In order to create a safe, effective vaccine, for anything, one has to constantly monitor the bug in question so the strains and manufacturing process can be modified as the organism changes. This is why we have to wait each year for the appropriate flu vaccines to be produced. What this means is that the vaccine manufacturers have to be investing time and money in reasearch and development constantly in order to have a hope at being somewhere near the front of the curve at the beginning of each flu season. I imagine this is something most of you know.
Looks to me like this legislation says to the companies – “you don’t have to do your homework folks, we’ll let you just jump in at the last minute and slap-dash something together, and if it doesn’t work, or it kills people because you didn’t do your homework, no problem, we won’t hold you responsible.”
The reason we have legal/financial accountability is to ensure that companies invest in good research and development. By not holding the manufacturers accountable we significantly reduce the safety and efficacy of the vaccine; they aren’t going to invest big money in a product that may, or may not, come to market at some nebulous future time. Face facts folks, these guys are not making these products for the good of humanity, they are making them to MAKE MONEY. They are looking to get the biggest return on the smallest investment they can get by with. This legislation ensures that they can make a huge profit on minimal investment – Oh, and they might save a few lives in the process.
Disgusting
May 8th, 2006 at 1:52 pmBored, MA?
So, instead of addressing the shady, unethical actions of Frist and Hastert to directly insert lobbyist’s text into a bill in the middle of the night, you try to deflect this onto liberals who ‘might’ have done something ‘if’ these Republicans didn’t pull a fast one.
Nice try. At the end of the day: First and Hastert gave the drug industry EXACTLY what they wanted even if the manufactures commit “gross negligence or gross recklessness” by inserting text DIRECTLY from the lobbying group into a bill.
Republicans did this. Not Democrats. Got it?
Try debating on what actually happened, not what you think might have happened.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:52 pmSo now we’ll get a small batches of flipper babies every now and then once the drug cartels (the legal ones) have total control and immunity over what is considered “medicine”. Does anyone remember Thalidomide? Could you imagine these pathetic excuses for rules and laws being in place when that was dispensed to all those pregnant women in the 50’s and 60’s? That crap not only killed, mutated and maimed, but its also credited with permanently altering DNA, something that is hereditary from anyone who may have taken it a generation or two prior.
What a sham, we no longer have a democratic country and haven’t for some time. Instead, a corporate interest fed rubber stamp passes the laws the rest of us must follow. What good do our elected officials stand for these days? Please tell me one thing aside from being the butt of a late night Comedy Central joke.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:53 pmbig papa
“The very fact that we’re havng this conversation means that we’re well ahead of the “pandemic†”
I know we are not currently in a pandemic, I was refering to being in a pandemic, which is the only point where this law would be in effect.
“…the ONLY company in America that manufactures the vaccine…”
because it isn’t profitable, that is why only one company does it. This was all covered thuroughly during last years flu shot shortages.
You are only looking at bird flu, how many other dieseses/flu’s are out there that are only one mutation away from being the next pandemic? And out of those how many have vaccines that are close enough to alter quickly? And all that is disregarding the months long process of atually producing them on a scale to be effective.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:53 pmSo now we’ll get small batches of flipper babies every now and then once the drug cartels (the legal ones) have total control and immunity over what is considered “medicine”. Does anyone remember Thalidomide? Could you imagine these pathetic excuses for rules and laws being in place when that was dispensed to all those pregnant women in the 50’s and 60’s? That crap not only killed, mutated and maimed, but its also credited with permanently altering DNA, something that is hereditary from anyone who may have taken it a generation or two prior.
What a sham, we no longer have a democratic country and haven’t for some time. Instead, a corporate interest fed rubber stamp passes the laws the rest of us must follow. What good do our elected officials stand for these days? Please tell me one thing aside from being the butt of a late night Comedy Central joke.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:54 pm137 – you missed the meat of the discussion and made statements that weren’t true. That looks bad on you, not the informed people who think differently than you. Look up the Fairness Doctine and then question your news and information sources.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:54 pm#147 – Trolls don’t care, especially Mighty Hag. This thread is about to be hijacked by the trolls.
May 8th, 2006 at 1:59 pmTo All the Heathers:
The arguments made here by the Heathers of the world are all pure BS which demonstrates a startling and dangerous ignorance of reality. The Heathers are misinformed at best and consciously evil at worst. Please, dear Heathers, keep in mind that Mr. Bush does not want to scare Iran off. Rather, he wants Iran to give him reason to attack so the U.S. can go in, install permanent military bases (just like in Iraq), grab some oil, and give away billions of more dollars to his good buddy contractor pals like Haliburton.
‘How can this be?’, you may ask. Well, did it ever occur to you that George Bush comes from a big oil family? That George Bush’s family is in business with the Bin Ladens producing, among other things, weapons? That the Vice President was an officer at Halliburton? And on and on. Can you see how convenient a war in the Middle East would be to these people? There is no hidden conspiracy here. It is a huge, bloated, in your face circle of kickbacks and set-ups designed to enrich the already wealthy and privileged at any cost. Anyone, Democrat or Republican, can easily connect the dots. Why more of the Heathers don’t see what’s right in front of their faces I don’t know. What I do know is that ignorance like this plays right into the hands of the elite.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:02 pm[...] Read more Giveaway [...]
May 8th, 2006 at 2:03 pmDon’t forget Ms. Heathers attempts to hijack earlier.
Squeege,
it sounds like what would need to be done to protect from a true pandemic, would be to have millions of doses of the current vaccine available. These doses would need to be updated yearly to the current form of the avian flu. So any short measures to up production of a vaccine in case of a pandemic may be useless anyway. Much like Mighty Aphrodite’s posts.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:04 pmHey Lib 4, I said Russia IS NOT ON OUR SIDE, it’s really easy to read my comments. Next time your going to attack me please actually read my post. As for the challenges and other insane dribble. I said I was leaving, I had class. Of course you folks knew that and waited for me to leave before making inane challenges. I will be happy to prove you kool-aid drinkers wrong. Oh and on the civil rights stuff. Come on GERALD this is what I’m talking about HISTORY. Actually one of the strongest opponents to the civil rights act was Al Gores father. Lets see if you folks can handle the truth for a second. Sorry to pollute your forum here with real facts but I think it’s time. So here goes, in the Senate 82% of Republicans voted for the Civil Rights Act while only 69% of Democrats did. In the House 80% of Republicans voted for and 60% voted against. The two senators who tried a 74 day filibuster to stop the act were Al Gore Sr. and Robert “kkk” Byrd. So GERALD what have you got to say now.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:06 pmMichael S. K.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:09 pmI suppose you also believe the world trade center buildings were brought down by controlled demolition. Keep it up wacko.
Thank you Michael – yes! Under President Ford, George Sr. was head of the CIA – Mr. Ford requested and received intelligence to back up his policies; not intelligence to base policy on. Not a good road to travel.
And my personal favorite: Oil prices are simply the result of supply/demand economics – but when it comes to paying American workers a decent wage these people are crying,”let’s legalize illegal immigrants”. People who will work for next to nothing; who will still need services for which the rest of us will be paying. Another bad road.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:10 pmAs a Canadian who follows U.S. news pretty closely, I never cease at being amazed at how
crassly CORRUPT the so-called “world’s greatest democracy” is.
This is not to suggest that Canada has lacked in political scandal, but the depth and ingrained nature of U.S. political corruption, I find breathtaking.
The notion of American pseudo-democracy leading a charge to export itself to “less enlightened” cultures world wide – especially if they have, or are in close proximity to, America’s favourite “drug of choice”, oil – is becoming more and more laughable (to those who can tolerate the blackest of black humour, at least).
May 8th, 2006 at 2:12 pmHeather, what are your credentials? What have you published? Where did you get your stats? Everyone has been providing links to their data except you.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:13 pmKrazny
“it sounds like what would need to be done to protect from a true pandemic, would be to have millions of doses of the current vaccine available.”
Not just the avian flu, every flu.
“These doses would need to be updated yearly to the current form of the avian flu. So any short measures to up production of a vaccine in case of a pandemic may be useless anyway.”
May 8th, 2006 at 2:14 pmMay be, but I would think with some corner cutting you could take at least month or two off of the total time from the start of modification to mass release.
With cronyism like that who the heck wants to take their vaccine! It’s dangerous.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:15 pmHastert and Frist= Corrupt and more Corrupt
May 8th, 2006 at 2:18 pmCorner cutting when peoples lives are at stake is a bad idea. corner cutting is what causes industrial accidents, and cars that explode. Corner cutting puts tainted food on the market, and drugs with dangerous side effects. Perhaps no good solution exists, but I will would rather a 100% safe vaccine, then a going blind.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:19 pmHey Lib 4, I said Russia IS NOT ON OUR SIDE, it’s really easy to read my comments. Next time your going to attack me please actually read my post.
I apologize Heather…my fault
You see that was an instance where I will admited my mistake and apologized…
could you tell your Republican leadership/followers to do the same
Thanks
xoxoxoxoxoxoxoxo
May 8th, 2006 at 2:20 pm#154 Again history folks, George Bush Sr. was head of the CIA for ONE year under Ford. What’s the excuse for the rest of the time.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:21 pm#154 Again History and facts are important. Bush Sr. was head of the CIA for ONE year under Ford. So whats the excuse for the rest of the time.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:22 pmThe rest of what time? Where’s your link to your stats? Weren’t those published stats?
May 8th, 2006 at 2:23 pmHey Bobb999 –
From the sane side of the country, we’re sorry. Sorry you have to watch the dysfunctional mess of the GOP led government.
And Heather – Try being specific with your information. With Civil Rights Act? 1957, 1964, 1968? Cause in 1957, Strom Thurmond had a 24 hours, 18 minutes fillibuster. But you ignored that part of history because it didn’t fit your view.
And if you looked further into those statistics (1964), it wasn’t a partisan vote. It was a geographical vote:
The Original House Version:
Southern Democrats: 7-87 (7%-93%)
Southern Republicans: 0-10 (0%-100%)
Northern Democrats: 145-9 (94%-6%)
Northern Republicans: 138-24 (85%-15%)
The Senate Version:
Southern Democrats: 1-21 (5%-95%)
Southern Republicans: 0-1 (0%-100%)
Northern Democrats: 46-1 (98%-2%)
Northern Republicans: 27-5 (84%-16%)
If we want to play selective statistics, fine. Hey, look! 98% of Northern Democratic Senators and 94% of Northern Democratic Representatives voted for it. Only 84%/85% Northern Republicans.
If you’re a history teacher, you should know better. The past is objective. History is merely someone’s take on what happened in the past, and therefore is slanted by viewpoints. You’re guilty of it, too.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:23 pmHey Middle of No Where. Sorry I thought that was well understood fact. But here you go Congressional Quarterly, June 26, 1964, p. 1323. Anything else?
May 8th, 2006 at 2:25 pmYou’re so much more intelligent than anyone in the world, Heather. Thank you Bobcat.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:27 pmFor the record, we suspended liability for vaccines in the Ford administration during the swine flu/legionares disease era. My source is Garrett’s “the coming plague” .
May 8th, 2006 at 2:29 pmHey, just trying to help. ;)
May 8th, 2006 at 2:30 pmNo, I don’t believe it was a controlled demolition. The false correlation and ad hominem attacks on your part are neither factual nor do they correct any of your earlier mistaken comments. It might be useful for you to take some time to objectively consider both the negative actions of politicians from both parties and the kinds of business-political connections suggested earlier by myself and others. If you judge the facts honestly, it is plain to see that there is an awful lot of corruption in our government, on both sides, sure; but for the purposes of this particular conversation, especially the Republicans. Frist’s sneaky last minute addition is just another clue for you to use in piecing together the total picture many of us have already seen, the one of the Bush family, the Bin Ladens, and other powerful families benefiting from the no-repercussion sale of potentially dangerous vaccine to the American people via a company owned by the Carlyle group of investors of which the Bush and Bid Laden families are heavily invested.
As I mentioned previously, the corrupt links from business to politics are obvious and very much in our faces. Coming to that conclusion is less a matter of which political side one is on and more a matter of being honest and objective. In the future, you may find it useful to draw conclusions from real correlations and actual facts instead of made-up ones.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:31 pmHenry Kissinger once said, “Of all the despots I’ve had to deal with, none was more ruthless than Donald Rumsfeld.”
———————————————————–
FACTS over Bushit will win in the end.
-Rummy makes MILLIONS on bird flu vaccine.
-It only works ONE THIRD of the time – if that, as they have to reconfgure it when/if the virus reproduces. It is a hoax to continue the fear and control.
-FEAR FACTOR is all the Bu$hCo minions have left – be very afraid of what –THEY would do, not IRAN, who has been trying for years to simply TALK to this corrupt administration – what ever happened to diplomacy?
-Rummy/Cheney during the Ford Adm. in the 70’s told the puppet SHAH they put in place for oil that “oil was too valuable to use to heat homes”. They ENCOURAGED IRAN to purchase NUCLEAR POWER.
- The 1953 Coup in which the CIA and the British (i.e. British Petreum) took out the democratically leader of Iran was due to one thing – oil.
Mossadegh was Time Magazine “Man of the Year” – who decided to give the OIL PROFITS to the PEOPLE – that is “Why” the USA took him out – and WHY the USA is now AGAINST CHAVEZ – because he did the same thing recently.
-History? Read this true history like “Confessions of an Economic Hit Man” and then, troll Heather, you may begin to “get it”.
-Iran is like Iraq. When Hussain threatened to upset the oil cartel and convert to EUROS – we attacked. IRAN is converting to EUROS THIS WEEK.
“Since world war two we’ve managed to create history’s first truly global empire. This has been done by the corporatocracy, which are a few men and women who run our major corporations and in doing so also run the U.S. government and many other governments around the world.” John Perkins, 2005, author of the book titled ‘ Confessions of and Economic Hit Man’
May 8th, 2006 at 2:33 pm152, you need to take your fight elsewhere, like back to the classroom debate. You continue grasping for some greasy straws when you have to bring up irrelevant points to the topic at hand. This thread is not about who/who didn’t vote for Civil Rights in the 60’s but about deceptive, backhanded and unethical practices that continue to perpetrate thru the actions of the “leaders” of our legislative branch. So dispicable these acts of “law making” are, the cockroaches who infest and run the show (for now) only feel comfortable to operate when the lights go out and nobody is around.
Let me ask you something. Are you proud of this bit of legislation? Do you feel well represented by these new laws? Are you proud of the fact that if you get sick because a drug company rushed a vaccine to market that you now have absolutely no recourse for someone elses’ malfeasance?
May 8th, 2006 at 2:34 pmWell put.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:34 pmYou know, after looking at those stats more, I find in interesting that not a single Southern Republican voted for the Civil Rights Act of 1964. 0 for 11.
Granted the Southern Democrats’ record was crummy, too. But 7% of Southern Democrats is better than 0% of Southern Republicans.
But 95% of Northern Democrats voted for it. Only 85% of Northern Republicans did.
So, Heather… see how I massaged that data to be on our side? That’s history for you.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:37 pmMichael S. K.
I suppose you also believe the world trade center buildings were brought down by controlled demolition. Keep it up wacko.
Comment by Heather
They were.
The explosives that went off were measured by seismographs seconds before the buildings fell.
In addition Larry Silverstein admitted on a September 2002 PBS documentary, ‘America Rebuilds’ that they decided to ‘pull’ WTC 7 on the day of the attack. The word ‘pull’ is industry jargon for taking a building down with explosives.
It takes weeks to setup a “pull”. This would mean that the building was wired up for a pull weeks before 911…they sure as hell didnt do it that day while it was on fire….
The word conspiracy exists because conspiracies do happen all the time. There are conspiracies going on right now in America. Duke Cunningham had a conspiracy going with the military industrial complex to take bribes for votes.
Was our government in volved? I sure as hell hope not… but to act like the official line on 911 is gospel is an insult to logic.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:45 pmHeather,
The U.S. is running out of oil. We peaked in 1970.
The leading oil producers are Saudi Arabia, Iraq, Iran, and Venezuela. We’ve got Saudi Arabia all wrapped up.
The other three are next.
THAT is what this is all about and NOTHING else.
Grow up.
The U.S. is DESPERATE for oil. I picked up my kid today from school and out of thirty cars in line I was the ONLY one not driving a huge SUV or minivan—no exaggeration.
The USA is peaking as a civilization, and is now DESPERATE.
3 dollar gas is just the beginning. It will hit five dollars in less than a year, guaranteed.
Besides, we can’t even control a little pissant country like Iraq. Our military is failing miserably. What makes the chickenhawks think we’ll stand a chance against Iran, a country that is three times the size of Iraq, and has three times the population?
Bush is simply wasting his time and YOUR money, and you are a fool for FOLLOWING him, a man with less IQ than the average dolphin.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:51 pmSo GERALD what have you got to say now.
Comment by Heather
I believe bobcat_grad smacked your bitch up just fine for me… You cannot change history and pointing fingers at Al Gores family does not change the FACT that the KKK south was pissed about democrats (FDRs wife, Truman, Kennedy, LBJ) supporting civil rights so they bolted the party to the hateful arms of the republicans.
May 8th, 2006 at 2:51 pm#155 – Thank youfor your input BOOOBBBBB Canuck – What exactly has the beloved Maple Leaf contributed to the world besides a welcoming haven for traitors of the US since 1776 to the present??? (Forgive me – it IS such fun to watch overtaxed Canucks scoop up merchandise in American stores. Smuggling it back to Canada, avoiding the HIDEOUS tax liability is SOMETHING CanYUCKs are GOOD at.) Do us a BIG favour – KEEP our traitors, your socialized medicine and Muslim “refugees”. We’ll call it even…..
#139 – “Professor” – I’m still waiting for your “cited” political scholars….Here in San Diego, we call this impasse an “illegal alien” standoff….
May 8th, 2006 at 2:55 pmhmmm…keeping pharmas suitfree could pave the way for a secret genocide of sorts — without any legal means of retaliation for the victims and or their families. hmmm. that provision sounds like Bullocks to me. V.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:02 pm#139 – “Professor†– I’m still waiting for your “cited†political scholars….Here in San Diego, we call this impasse an “illegal alien†standoff….
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 8, 2006 @ 2:55 pm
In reality we call it a win by default. I win because you refuse to engage. Just whine about some irrelevent information.
Though I would have won even if you had tried to debatethe topic. I’ve seen you make an argument, and it’s always very faulty at best.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:04 pm#178:
MA – Can you type a sentence without insulting someone who isn’t you?
Oh, and don’t try to call out people about not answering calls from you about information.
I asked you in #143 to honestly debate the facts, not debate a fictionary world made up by you. But in typical Republican manner, it’s “Please do as I say, not as I do.”
May 8th, 2006 at 3:12 pmYou’re so much more intelligent than anyone in the world, Heather. Thank you Bobcat.
You asked for the stats…you got them and all you had left was a smart ass reply. Hard to argue against fact isn’t it.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:13 pmBe carefull if you go to get vacinated and they ask if you like Bush or not? You say you dislike Bush , then you get the tainted bad vacine that could rot your liver or make you go blind?!
May 8th, 2006 at 3:14 pmI believe bobcat_grad smacked your bitch up just fine for me…
Comment by Gerald Gibson — May 8, 2006 @ 2:51 pm
Hey, I do what I can.
I guess once Heather got a different historical perspective on her ‘facts’ she got so riled up and self righteous about her viewpoint that she took the ever popular Republican position.
She clammed up and left.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:16 pm#172, the answer is no because I don’t believe in these vaccines. I think they are more harmful then helpful. The republican party is currently corrupt in the exact same way that the democrats were corrupt for 42 years prior to the 94′ election. My problem is that when the dems take over at some point I doubt any of you will be here holding them accountable. And I’m not the one who brought up the civil rights act.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:18 pmBobcat sorted out your facts – you don’t recognize any history unless it’s less than 50 years old, remember? So neither geography nor historical information would matter in your stats. Name calling is a logical fallacy professor.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:18 pm#182: Hey, Heather.
Go read #165 and #174. Then come back and apologize.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:19 pm[...] Please find the entire article here. [...]
May 8th, 2006 at 3:19 pm#174 I didn’t massage the data, I gave raw statistics. If it makes you feel better to spin the data and look at where the politicians were from then go ahead but the overall stats are what they are. From the time of Lincoln to LBJ the Republicans led the way in securing civil rights for African Americans. I would argue that they continue to do more for African Americans today because they don’t intentionaly keep them in poverty through the welfare system in order to secure there vote.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:21 pmthe answer is no because I don’t believe in these vaccines. I think they are more harmful then helpful. The republican party is currently corrupt in the exact same way that the democrats were corrupt for 42 years prior to the 94′ election. My problem is that when the dems take over at some point I doubt any of you will be here holding them accountable. And I’m not the one who brought up the civil rights act.
Comment by Heather
Do you really believe that we are here bitching for the hell of it? If the democrats take over and use Bush precedence to ignore the Constitution thereby further weakening it then you can bet your ass there will be plenty of people ripping them on it… Check out the ACLU … they dont care if you are democrat, republican, or Marsian … if you are violating the Constitution of the United States you are going to have a lawsuit on your hands.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:24 pmGERALD You need serious help. Let me get this straight. If you watch the video you will see that the towers began their collapse at the exact point of impact of the planes. So according to your theory someone planted demolition explovises strong enough to bring down the buildings without any one seeing them. Then when a jumbo jet flying at over 500mph hit the exact area containing the explosives resulting in a fire over 1000 degrees the explosives stayed right in place and didn’t detonate. The south tower didn’t fall until 58 minutes after impact. Nice try genuis. A fourth grader could figure out that this would be impossible.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:25 pmI didn’t massage the data, I gave raw statistics. If it makes you feel better to spin the data and look at where the politicians were from then go ahead but the overall stats are what they are. From the time of Lincoln to LBJ the Republicans led the way in securing civil rights for African Americans. I would argue that they continue to do more for African Americans today because they don’t intentionaly keep them in poverty through the welfare system in order to secure there vote.
Comment by Heather
You gave half a truth which is a lie.
List what the republicans did for the blacks? And becareful with Lincoln because it is easy to go to google and get qoutes from his own mouth that makes it clear he wasnt about making the blacks our equals…
No body makes people get on welfare… Rush Limbaugh… It is there for those that choose to take advantage of it in times of need. Unfortunately this society is based on capitalism which means winners and losers so there is always people in need.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:27 pmGERALD You need serious help. Let me get this straight. If you watch the video you will see that the towers began their collapse at the exact point of impact of the planes. So according to your theory someone planted demolition explovises strong enough to bring down the buildings without any one seeing them. Then when a jumbo jet flying at over 500mph hit the exact area containing the explosives resulting in a fire over 1000 degrees the explosives stayed right in place and didn’t detonate. The south tower didn’t fall until 58 minutes after impact. Nice try genuis. A fourth grader could figure out that this would be impossible.
Comment by Heather
Apparently you didnt see this video …
http://youtube.com/watch?v=sCDUyV6aXeM&search=david%2Bicke
Which shows clouds of smoke coming up from the GROUND level of the buildings right after the shaking and seconds before the buildings fell…. your partial knowledge is making you look really dumb…
The video doesnt play around with opinion.. it shows you exact timings … educate yourself and if you can debunk that info I would like to hear it ….
May 8th, 2006 at 3:30 pmHey Bob Cat, I read those and it makes no sense. You folks are the only people I have met that disagree with the fact that the Republicans were overwhelmingly responsible for the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act. And as for KKK members moving to the Democrat party…what happened to Robert “kkk” Byrd.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:31 pmLike it or not, history and social structure cannot be denied. You’re attempting to wipe away other factors as if your stats alone are supreme.
No one likes welfare, especially corporate welfare. I do not want to create a lifestyle of dependency – perpetual poverty. I wouldn’t want that for myself or anyone else. I do want to help people who need assistance. I know people with seven or eight children with their spouse. The caregiver in the family decided not to pursue a degree and financial support fell to the other partner – if that partner were killed, would you want to help those people? I would. It’s called civilization. We don’t let human beings suffer.
I also believe in personal responsibility and would agree that as a country we have an attitude of “freedom from responsibility” rather than “freedom comes with responsibility” I’d like to put responsibility back into the mix.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:31 pmAnd as for KKK members moving to the Democrat party…what happened to Robert “kkk†Byrd.
Comment by Heather
He is one man … not the SOUTH…
May 8th, 2006 at 3:34 pm#174 I didn’t massage the data, I gave raw statistics. If it makes you feel better to spin the data and look at where the politicians were from then go ahead but the overall stats are what they are.
I’d go back and argue that you actually misrepresented your ‘raw statistics’ but then you provided me with this doozy:
From the time of Lincoln to LBJ the Republicans led the way in securing civil rights for African Americans. I would argue that they continue to do more for African Americans today because they don’t intentionaly keep them in poverty through the welfare system in order to secure there vote.
Oh my goodness. Are you serious? Ummm… Medicaid? Welfare system? HUD? Food Stamps? All of those are Democratic programs.
Hmmmm…. Republicans are African Americans’ best friend, right? That explains:
And among African-Americans, Bush has only a 2 percent approval rating, proving that African-Americans are not fooled by Republican’s hollow apologies and empty rhetoric on outreach to the African-American community. (NBC, 10/13/05)
Under the Bush Administration, 9.4 percent of African-Americans are unemployed at more than twice the rate of whites.
African-Americans’ Household Incomes Have Declined by More than $2,000 Under Bush. (U.S. Census Bureau, 8/30/05; Table A-1)
In 2004, the number of African-Americans without health insurance remained at about 7.4 million. This is an increase of almost 770,000 people since 2000. (U.S. Census Bureau, 8/30/05; Table C-1 )
Anything else you’d like me to disprove?
May 8th, 2006 at 3:34 pm[Deleted by administrator]
May 8th, 2006 at 3:36 pmComment by Heather
What is irrelivant is people that do not look at facts and come up with opinions. When 911 happened I believed everything that was told… then I started seeing numbers… facts… timings… you know … science… People that were involved in the testing of the steel have gone public and said their testing data was falsified after they turned it in… get the facts before you start telling people they are irrelivant… I will believe ANYTHING that is backed up by science… that figure you gave 1000 degrees is false. Are you talking C or F? It makes a big difference…
May 8th, 2006 at 3:41 pm#197 The things you listed are the very things that have HURT the African American Race and kept them in pocket of the dems. Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:44 pm[Deleted by administrator]
May 8th, 2006 at 3:44 pmBob-Cat Drop-out , Thanks for your sweet display of chivalry – I’m sure the “professor” is appreciative.
Dear “Professor” – You decide what’s relevant??? I don’t think so…..Thank you for your fine example of elitism at it’s progressive BEST!!!
May 8th, 2006 at 3:45 pm#194 Hey Bob Cat, I read those and it makes no sense.
They make no sense to you because you read the statistics selectively. It’s easy to do. I did the same thing. See how we took the same numbers and made them say two different things?
You folks are the only people I have met that disagree with the fact that the Republicans were overwhelmingly responsible for the passage of the 1964 Civil Rights Act.
Really? You don’t say? Let’s look at those numbers again:
The Original House Version:
Southern Democrats: 7-87 (7%-93%)
Southern Republicans: 0-10 (0%-100%)
Northern Democrats: 145-9 (94%-6%)
Northern Republicans: 138-24 (85%-15%)
The Senate Version:
Southern Democrats: 1-21 (5%-95%)
Southern Republicans: 0-1 (0%-100%)
Northern Democrats: 46-1 (98%-2%)
Northern Republicans: 27-5 (84%-16%)
The TOTAL number of House Democrats voted FOR: 152
The TOTAL number of House Republicans voted FOR: 138
The TOTAL number of Senate Democrats voted FOR: 47
The TOTAL number of Senate Republicans voted FOR: 27
Now, how does “Republicans were overwhelmingly responsible” make 138 > 152?
Or 27 > 47? Is that Republican math? Kinda like 51% is a mandate?
And as for KKK members moving to the Democrat party…what happened to Robert “kkk†Byrd.
No argument here. Byrd is an idiot. But you guys had Strom.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:45 pmThe things you listed are the very things that have HURT the African American Race and kept them in pocket of the dems. Give a man a fish and he’ll eat for a day, teach a man to fish and he’ll eat for a lifetime.
Comment by Heather
Tell a man that fishing doesnt cut it in todays capitalistic world and you will be telling him the truth.
What is needed is MORE assistance… If the full FDR New Deal was enacted not only would the blacks be able to sign up for free food and housing but they could also get free education which is what is needed in the real world of today. But… alas.. the republicans stoped the full New Deal from happening…. so all they got was welfare and such… too bad really .. can you imagine a nation full of college educated people?
May 8th, 2006 at 3:48 pm9/11 wasn’t GW’s direct doing. It was made easier by GW being incompetent, but the credit goes where it belongs, to Osama. He planned it, and his guys executed his plan. Bush just took massive advantage of it and continued to take advantage of it long after it could be called anger.
He lost my respect on 9/11 not because he was behind it, but because he ran and hid, and then proceded to make as much political hay out of it as possible. Then when Afghanistan started to look iffy, due as one report put it, there not being any good military targets in Afghanistan, he lied his ass off to get America into a war with Iraq, an enemy he knew to be largely disarmed and defenseless. Saddam was a threat at a point but sanctions and hostile neighbours had rendered him largely a declawed and toothless tiger. In South Africa we reffered to the WMD’s in Iraq as Weapons of Mass Distraction.
His policies on the economy, dropping tax rates for the rich while doubling America’s total debt, his treatment of war veterans and his abysmal failure in New Orleans all confirmed that this was not a great president, but something of the reverse. The Democrats of course, have taken the blame. And don’t bullshit me about the press being against Bush. The press has been tamed by Bush long ago.
Now I don’t say vote Democrat, because frankly while the Democrats have in the past been a viable ruling party, all they are now is a opposition party. They are so concerned with being popular they have forgotten about being right. The party I say you vote for? Don’t know, don’t care. All I can say is, don’t vote on values, don’t vote on popularity, don’t vote on who has the better religion or haircut, don’t vote for the guy with the better campaign and don’t vote against the other guy. Vote the way the founding fathers thought you would vote, vote on the issues.
GW is a temporary problem, in 2 years he will be gone, the guy after him though, that is the guy to worry about.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:49 pm#200 -
Yea. And the Republicans have been on watch during all of that. YOU said that Republicans do more for African Americans than Democrats.
I showed you that they haven’t.
There’s no way you are a history professor. If you are, let me know what school so I don’t send my kids there.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:50 pmDear “Professor†– You decide what’s relevant??? I don’t think so…..Thank you for your fine example of elitism at it’s progressive BEST!!!
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 8, 2006 @ 3:45 pm
No, common sense decides. And we already know that you don’t recognize or understand common sense Magda.
After 14 years in architecture, I can tell you that what’s key to holding up a building is no different than what’s key to holding up an argument. And in this case,. the ’scholars’ are as superfluous to you answerig my question as would be adding buttresses to the Empire State Building.
The question stands on its own merits Magda. All else is irrelevent (www.dictionary.com)
May 8th, 2006 at 3:51 pmBOBCAT Your numbers are lies I already gave you the totals and the link to the actual congressional record. Don’t just start making up stuff. It’s ok that the dems were wrong back then. The republicans are wrong an equal amount of the time. Just don’t lie about it.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:54 pm9/11 wasn’t GW’s direct doing. It was made easier by GW being incompetent, but the credit goes where it belongs, to Osama. He planned it, and his guys executed his plan. Bush just took massive advantage of it and continued to take advantage of it long after it could be called anger.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — May 8, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
Bruce, I’ve given up on this one. It’s become a religion. But, good luck. You know I’m with you.
May 8th, 2006 at 3:54 pmBOBCAT Your numbers are lies I already gave you the totals and the link to the actual congressional record. Don’t just start making up stuff. It’s ok that the dems were wrong back then. The republicans are wrong an equal amount of the time. Just don’t lie about it.
Comment by Heather — May 8, 2006 @ 3:54 pm
Really? Lies? Hmmmm…
Please visit http://www.answers.com/topic/civil-rights-act-of-1964 to see my ‘lies.’
Man, you just can’t stomach being wrong, can you?
May 8th, 2006 at 3:59 pmTopic police: So what’s the verdict? Is it ok to sneak items into a bill in that’s already been agreed upon as long as you’re with the current ruling party?
P.S. I can’t wait until Hillary is in the White House and in charge of our archives and can singlehandedly decide who we can torture or spy on without any oversight…
May 8th, 2006 at 4:05 pmYou folks are silly, but we like to explore these cites ever once and a while to research popular opinion for the creation of class discussion. Heather is works in my department and is in fact a professor. Technically we have to be careful about using our names on these sites but I’m tenured so I’m not to worried “heather” is not yet. Anyway in case you doubt my sincerity you can find me at http://www.nd.edu/~history/faculty/ scroll down to U.S. History. And to those who said they wanted to know where Heather worked so they wouldn’t send their kids there, given the comments Heather showed me on here I doubt you’ll have to worry about you child attending Notre Dame. Anyway Heather just likes to get you folks going. She is pretty correct on most of what she said. Those of you that think the WTC buildings were brought down by anything but the planes I will gather some data from the engineering department here at ND that I think you will find interesting. Good luck to all of you and remember to keep both sides honest.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:06 pm9/11 wasn’t GW’s direct doing. It was made easier by GW being incompetent, but the credit goes where it belongs, to Osama. He planned it, and his guys executed his plan. Bush just took massive advantage of it and continued to take advantage of it long after it could be called anger.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — May 8, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
Bruce, I’ve given up on this one. It’s become a religion. But, good luck. You know I’m with you.
Comment by unbelievable
I dont think anyone said Bush was involved… who would be stupid enough to involve him? He would blurt it out to the world on TV…
Ever hear about the terrorist attacks planed by some people in the USA military during Kennedys administration that was meant to setup Castro as a terrorist? Kennedy fired his ass… but then again Kennedy ended up dead. Ever hear of the Reichstag? It happened… Ever hear of the burning of Rome? This shit happens by evil people in history and it doesnt have to be by the top guy directly… why were those Israel spies staying in an apartment right across the street from Mohhamed Atta? Why were those Israeli spies caught cheering the WTC towers as they burned? Why were all those Israeli spies rounded up after 911?
As any detective will tell you if you are trying to solve a murder then you first need to look who benefited this most… it wasnt Bush… others benfited most… basically the same people that have made money off of Iraq… those same people were having secret meetings with Israels right wingers…. those same people were part of PNAC…. THAT is a motive… a motive that was never followed up on officially.
Why was all the evidence of the WTC towers scraped up and taken away when normally even when a plane crashes into the sea we get it all out of the sea and put back together again to see what happened?
911 isnt about Bush…. but that doesnt mean that all the SCIENCE that has been collected is false. How many steel buildings have EVER fell because of fire? EVER? hint: NONE.
And that is because of common SCIENCE not because there never have been big fires in buildings…
Steel isnt wood… it just doesnt get that weak bcause of a short term fire.
Go look up what it takes for jet fuel to MELT steel… it takes over 24 hours of constant burning WITH OXYGEN BEING BLOWN IN TO INCREASE THE HEAT…. that is not what happened on 911… the fires were out in minutes….
May 8th, 2006 at 4:08 pmIncredible! When you read this stuff you just get sick. And it is everywhere! Corruption, corruption corruption and sweetheart deals to friends and supporters of this administration. The American taxpayers are this group’s own little piggybank and everyone wants to get some of the action. When will the quiet majority awaken from their slumber?
May 8th, 2006 at 4:09 pmIncredible! When you read this stuff you just get sick. And it is everywhere! Corruption, corruption corruption and sweetheart deals to friends and supporters of this administration. The American taxpayers are this group’s own little piggybank and everyone wants to get some of the action. When will the quiet majority awaken from their slumber?
May 8th, 2006 at 4:10 pmThe letter from Iran supposedly offers “new ways out” and the public knowledge of these ways is not specific. They could have said that if we blow up Israel and leave Iraq they will stop their naughty behavior. Heather is a typical example of the 31% still holding on to the hope that Bush is a “great leader”. He is a tremendous failure, the magnitude of which this country has never seen. 31% will blindly follow anyone with an elephant next to their name.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:11 pmAnyway Heather just likes to get you folks going. She is pretty correct on most of what she said. Those of you that think the WTC buildings were brought down by anything but the planes I will gather some data from the engineering department here at ND that I think you will find interesting. Good luck to all of you and remember to keep both sides honest.
Comment by Gail
Then LINK it … talking trash is not science.
It was common knowledge before 911 that WTC was not going down just because of some planes hitting them… they were designed with that in mind… so back up your claims with facts… something that has not been done so far. Even the 911 commision used opinion not scientific tests to explain how the buildings came down… the explosions have been caught on TAPE… explain that…. the seismographs recorded it all … explain that. If you got the science let us all see so we can put this to rest…. if you dont supply the science then you are misleading us all.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:11 pmGerald sweetheart you couldn’t be any more incorrect. If you really think that something other than the two jumbo jets caused those buildings to fall then shame on you for being so ignorant. I have watched the video that was referenced and it is the silliest thing I have ever witnessed. Nobody seriously thinks it was a conspiracy on anyones part except the TERRORISTS. God help a country full of such knuckleheads.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:14 pmComment by Heather
It does not matter WHAT I think… nor your opinion either… ONLY SCIENCE. And you dont supply it.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:15 pm[Comment removed by administrator.]
May 8th, 2006 at 4:17 pmOne understands ambulance chasing malpractice lawyers JUST HATING this legislation…. and they contribute to which party overwhelmingly????? THE DEMS – -WHO knew???? .LOL!!!!!!
May 8th, 2006 at 4:17 pmGerald You are becoming more ignorant by the second. We sent all material from the towers to the same place where over 200 forensic scientists sifted through every single scrap looking for data. They reconstructed parts using the original markings on the steel when the building was built. Obvioulsy they couldn’t rebuild the WTC towers with rubble right genuis. But of course they examined every single piece of rubble. Just look it up. The more you speak without looking this stuff up the less credibility you have.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:19 pmP.S. There were no Iraqis on the 9/11 planes, so I’m not sure I understand the correlation between 9/11 and Iraq. Does any one?
May 8th, 2006 at 4:20 pmComment by unbelievable
One of the designers of the buildings specifically said… “The buildings can take hits from several large planes…. what other stresses were there? We have ON TAPE someone admiting building #7 was demolitioned… what else does it take? Video of the guys put in the explosives?
May 8th, 2006 at 4:20 pmHeather, the more you attack the person rather than the argument, the more illogical you become. You have a credibility issue when you argue with such a weak weapon.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:22 pmGerald, why are you attacking me, I’m not an engineering student I said I would gather it up. I’m not talking trash, I have read stuff they have put together and it’s interesting. I was very civil so I’m not sure why your being so hostile to me. I can’t “link” it because some things are not found on the internet. Actually much of the research done here is not on the internet. Please be kind to those who are kind to you. Heather I think you’ve got these folks pretty angry maybe you should leave them alone for the day. Anyway see you in the morning.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:22 pmGerald You are becoming more ignorant by the second. We sent all material from the towers to the same place where over 200 forensic scientists sifted through every single scrap looking for data. They reconstructed parts using the original markings on the steel when the building was built. Obvioulsy they couldn’t rebuild the WTC towers with rubble right genuis. But of course they examined every single piece of rubble. Just look it up. The more you speak without looking this stuff up the less credibility you have.
Comment by Heather
I did look it up. It said the evidence was packaged up and sent to china within a couple weeks and that the officials that normally would investigate it were not allowed to and they were told to stop asking or lose their jobs.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:22 pmYou folks are silly, but we like to explore these cites ever once and a while to research popular opinion for the creation of class discussion. Heather is works in my department and is in fact a professor. Technically we have to be careful about using our names on these sites but I’m tenured so I’m not to worried “heather†is not yet. Anyway in case you doubt my sincerity you can find me at http://www.nd.edu/~history/faculty/ scroll down to U.S. History. And to those who said they wanted to know where Heather worked so they wouldn’t send their kids there, given the comments Heather showed me on here I doubt you’ll have to worry about you child attending Notre Dame. Anyway Heather just likes to get you folks going. She is pretty correct on most of what she said.
Comment by Gail — May 8, 2006 @ 4:06 pm
Don’t fall off your high horse.
Since we’re playing the game of “making claims no one can really back up on the internet,” I’m sure you’d be surprised to know that I was accepted to Notre Dame but chose not to go. Why? Too much money. I went to state school instead: Ohio University. Hence, the screen name.
And she is not correct on most of what she said. She merely is taking a slanted look at various aspects of what has happened in the past and then claims that we lie when we take a different slanted look at the same thing.
She’s welcome to her opinion. But that’s what it is: an opinion. It is not a fact.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:23 pmOne understands ambulance chasing malpractice lawyers JUST HATING this legislation…. and they contribute to which party overwhelmingly????? THE DEMS – -WHO knew???? .LOL!!!!!!
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 8, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
You are sick. Seriously. It’s not healthy to be so sadistic and never have anything positive or constructive to offer. Please get help. And I’m not making a joke. I’m quite serious.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:24 pmGerald I think unbelievable just put you in your place. No serious educated person believes your silly theory. Do you also believe that it was a missle that hit the pentagon
May 8th, 2006 at 4:26 pmComment by Gail —
I am not attacking anyone.
You made a statement without backing it up… You could just have easily said that your alien friends told you so and it would be just as valid. I know at least one guy that was part of the UL team that tested certified steel to see how long it would take to affect it turned in his numbers which proved that it was not possible to melt the steel with the low temperatures that were in the towers and then got fired for asking why is test was falsified after he turned it in… this also aligns with the fire fighters who were in the buildings and said there was no raging inferno… so who am I to believe? A nobody like you or people that were actually involved?
May 8th, 2006 at 4:26 pmGerald I think unbelievable just put you in your place. No serious educated person believes your silly theory. Do you also believe that it was a missle that hit the pentagon
Comment by Heather
It is not MY theory… I dont even have a theory.. all I got is scientific evidence that others gathered and presented with out calling people names and trying to speak down to them… that is not science…
May 8th, 2006 at 4:27 pmOh, and just to keep the whole “Republicans are the best thing ever for African Americans” vs. the “WTC blown up by the US” argument threads separate, I was referring to the former.
I repeatedly showed Heather how the same numbers can be presented different ways to support opposite viewpoints. She reponded by telling me “Your numbers are lies.”
Same numbers you used, Irish…. same numbers you used.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:29 pm….Trial lawyers overwhelmingly support with their votes and $$$$$ the party that supports the POCKETS of the …. (drum roll)….dada…..TRIAL LAWYERS…..
Pathetic how a logical assertion is attacked without fact – but LOTS of fiction and ad hominem attack – pitiful, “Professor” …..
May 8th, 2006 at 4:30 pmGerald Your so called scientific evidence is disputed by nearly every scientist and engineer who has studied this. I could probably find an internet site that says the earth is flat, does that make it so. By the way the UL does not test steel to see how long it takes or at what temperatures it melts. No raging inferno, really so the millions on tv that saw the raging inferno were all seeing things. I’m sure a few thousand gallons of jet fuel and 4-6 floors of highly combustible material could never cause a raging inferno, im sure it was a simple campfire. I’m sure the people who jumped to their deaths to avoid the flames were just slightly hot and wanted to cool off right. YOU ARE A WACK JOB.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:32 pmOne of the designers of the buildings specifically said… “The buildings can take hits from several large planes….
I personally heard the designers say that the buildings were designed to handle a plane hit, but since the plane sizes at the time were smaller, they couldn’t have planned for the ones that exist today.
And, clearly, they didn’t withstand the impact of the planes. Twice.
what other stresses were there?
An intense fire and the tops of the buildings being severed from their structure, so that they delivered a pile driving blow to the already stressed structural system (which only needs to be compromised and not melted to fail)
We have ON TAPE someone admiting building #7 was demolitioned…
I’m not talking about 7, but about the twin towers.
what else does it take? Video of the guys put in the explosives?
Comment by Gerald Gibson — May 8, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
Or a valid motive, and a logical argument. Without a single Iraqi on any of the planes, it makes it difficult to understand the connection to Iraq.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:33 pmWe sent all material from the towers to the same place where over 200 forensic scientists sifted through every single scrap looking for data
Who did they work for?
Once again I am serious for FACTS. If you can prove that this happened I would like to know about it… I dont want just facts that point towards one conclusion … I want it all … if you can back up this statement lets have it because I would like to see how it was that pools of molten steel was found in the basement of the buildings … if they really studied that steel they would be able to tell if it had been “cut” by demolition explosives or if it had not … if they really studied it and there was no cutting then and they can explain the molten steel and what happened to the steel core it would really put my mind to ease.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:34 pmHey, MA.
Big Oil/huge corporations/far right wing organizations overwhelmingly support with their votes and lots of $$$$ the party that supports the POCKETS of the …. (drum roll)….dada…..Big Oil/huge corporations/far right wing organizations…
(See how I did that? I took your post and turned it around on you. Except I put in people that have MORE money and INFLUENCE than trial lawyers alone.)
May 8th, 2006 at 4:36 pmYou folks are really an angry bunch, I never made a statement I couldn’t back up. I offered to gather some information that you folks might find interesting and then you can do with it what you will. I wasn’t trying to argue or attack anyone. I’m sorry for offering to gather some information. See sometimes when your going to present data you don’t want to just run to google or make it up you actually want to gather the research which is what I offered to do. Maybe you wouldn’t believe it and that’s fine I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything just offering some info. But you folks can be really vial. Is anyone allowed to disagree, if not what’s the point it’s like your all just patting each other on the back, that seems boring. Anyway God Bless all of you and have a great evening.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:38 pmGerald – I was trying to stay “on thread” with my comments about the pharmaceutical industry – but your posts sound like the conspiracy theorists over at prisonplanet. P. S. THOSE folks belong to YOUR side of the aise – Thank GOD!!!!!!!
May 8th, 2006 at 4:38 pmGerald I think unbelievable just put you in your place. No serious educated person believes your silly theory. Do you also believe that it was a missle that hit the pentagon
Comment by Heather — May 8, 2006 @ 4:26 pm
You could stand to be a lot nicer when you address other people, Heather. Winning isn’t everything. But being human sure comes close.
I’m not taking sides, just trying to explain what I know from my years in the profession.
But, as I told Bruce, it’s become a pointless argument.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:40 pm[...] Last December, Senate Majority Leader Bill First (R-TN) and House Speaker Dennis Hastert inserted a provision in the Defense Appropriations bill that granted vaccine manufactures near-total immunity for injuries or deaths (even in cases of “gross negligenceâ€) caused by their drugs during a viral pandemic, such as an outbreak of the avian flu. The legislation was “worth billions of dollars†to a small group of drug makers. [...]
May 8th, 2006 at 4:40 pmGerald I seriously have to go but if your here tomorrow I will be happy to provide the info that Heather was talking about in terms of examining the debris from the site. We had a professor from here at ND take part in that. I don’t know him personally but I’m sure he would be happy to give me some information. Just hang tight little buddy the truth shall be brought to light soon enough (it already has for most people)
May 8th, 2006 at 4:41 pmHey Proud BobKitten – I don’t think the populace will be knocking on the door of Exxon or Chevron for bird flu vaccine – do you??? Your argument is irrelevant!!!
May 8th, 2006 at 4:42 pmPathetic how a logical assertion is attacked without fact – but LOTS of fiction and ad hominem attack – pitiful, “Professor†…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 8, 2006 @ 4:30 pm
Either engage me by answering my question or shut up. You’re getting in the way of an actual discussion.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:42 pmOne of the designers of the buildings specifically said… “The buildings can take hits from several large planes….
I personally heard the designers say that the buildings were designed to handle a plane hit, but since the plane sizes at the time were smaller, they couldn’t have planned for the ones that exist today.
He said several planes and the planes are not that much bigger today and the fuel in them isnt any more special either.
And, clearly, they didn’t withstand the impact of the planes. Twice.
What is clear? Like Bushes Iraq strategy clear? The only thing that can make it clear is a sound scientific explaination of HOW it happened.. the 911 commision did the same thing you just did… they just expressed an opinion with no backing.
what other stresses were there?
An intense fire
The fire fighters that were in the building said there was no such fire.
and the tops of the buildings being severed from their structure,
Who ever said this happened? what severed them? It wasnt the planes. It sure wasnt the fire… there was no such fire that would take 24 hours of constant jet fuel being blown on them to do that… which CLEARLY didnt happen.
so that they delivered a pile driving blow to the already stressed structural system (which only needs to be compromised and not melted to fail)
Just like the 911 commision there is no explaination of how this happened… when a plane goes down we get exact physical evidence how it happened… just saying “pile driver” doesnt make it so… that isnt even a technical term to explain how building come down like that … the technical term is demolitioned.
We have ON TAPE someone admiting building #7 was demolitioned…
I’m not talking about 7, but about the twin towers.
They are most certainly linked.
what else does it take? Video of the guys put in the explosives?
Comment by Gerald Gibson — May 8, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
Or a valid motive, and a logical argument. Without a single Iraqi on any of the planes, it makes it difficult to understand the connection to Iraq.
Comment by unbelievable — May 8, 2006 @ 4:33 pm
Motive? Cash … can you name the people that have made the most? Carlye Group…. Who is involved with the Carlye Group? Saudis? Was Osama a Saudi? What other parts of 911 was Carlye group a part of? Who exactly made all those suspicious stock trades right before 911?
Then there is Israel… the right wingers in Irael want a big war because they want to destroy the Temple Mount so that they can “build the 3rd temple of David” or some crap… are you saying religious fanatics are not capable of such a thing? Isnt that what Osama is? Wouldnt it be great for one religious fanatic group to help another do something that would lead to the destruction of the Temple Mount?
Are you saying no one benefited from this?
May 8th, 2006 at 4:45 pmYou folks are really an angry bunch, I never made a statement I couldn’t back up. I offered to gather some information that you folks might find interesting and then you can do with it what you will. I wasn’t trying to argue or attack anyone. I’m sorry for offering to gather some information. See sometimes when your going to present data you don’t want to just run to google or make it up you actually want to gather the research which is what I offered to do. Maybe you wouldn’t believe it and that’s fine I’m not trying to convince anyone of anything just offering some info. But you folks can be really vial. Is anyone allowed to disagree, if not what’s the point it’s like your all just patting each other on the back, that seems boring. Anyway God Bless all of you and have a great evening.
Comment by Gail
Stop being so sensitve.. no one was attacking you.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:46 pmYou folks are really an angry bunch,
Not all of us.
I never made a statement I couldn’t back up. I offered to gather some information that you folks might find interesting and then you can do with it what you will. I wasn’t trying to argue or attack anyone.
I’m open to the information you are offering me. But I bet it isn’t different than the information I provided Heather. Please get the voting records of Congress on the Civil Rights Act of 1964. Broken down be geographic region and party affiliation please.
I’m sorry for offering to gather some information. See sometimes when your going to present data you don’t want to just run to google or make it up you actually want to gather the research which is what I offered to do.
Dang Google. Makes it harder to justify reference books, doesn’t it? You know having all of that information at your fingertips makes us ordinary non-Notre Dame folks dangerous, doesn’t it? Oh, I’d venture to say that your claim that we ‘make it up’ is attacking us. I provided a link to the statistics that I was told I lied about. How is that making anything up?
But you folks can be really vial.
Hey, I thought you weren’t attacking anyone. It’s not nice to call names.
Is anyone allowed to disagree,
Absolutely. Heather didn’t seem to think so. She called by take on the same statistics she used ‘lies.’ Apparently I’m not allowed to disagree with her.
if not what’s the point it’s like your all just patting each other on the back, that seems boring.
I agree. Republicans have perfected that anyway.
Anyway God Bless all of you and have a great evening.
Right back at you.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:47 pmGerald,
You want to be right. Sorry I can’t help you. Six years of college and 14 years of experience all vote to the contrary. Good luck. I’m off to somethng else.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:48 pmGerald I seriously have to go but if your here tomorrow I will be happy to provide the info that Heather was talking about in terms of examining the debris from the site. We had a professor from here at ND take part in that. I don’t know him personally but I’m sure he would be happy to give me some information. Just hang tight little buddy the truth shall be brought to light soon enough (it already has for most people)
Comment by Gail
For most people? Most people dont have any clue… they just repeat what they are told….there you go talking down to me just because I want the truth… I guess the truth is quaint to you?
And yes I would like that info…
gerald.gibson@insightbb.com
If he doesnt want to post here for fear of being labled a communist or something just send it to that address.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:50 pm[...] by people hurt by the vaccines. (emphasis from Think Progress) [ Permanent Link | '); | '); | Technorati Links ] The Great Society © 2005-2006 TGS was created using the Firefox web browser and may notbe viewed as cleanly in others. Get a free website from Blogsome. Theme was originally designed by Lee Penney and customized thereafter. Navigation Home Login [...]
May 8th, 2006 at 4:50 pmHey, Mighty Aphrodite:
What’s your favorite ice cream? Mmmm… that sounds good. Yum.
.
.
.
.
.
.
(Shhh… don’t tell the troll. I’m trying to get him to go away and get some ice cream.)
May 8th, 2006 at 4:51 pmGerald,
You want to be right. Sorry I can’t help you. Six years of college and 14 years of experience all vote to the contrary. Good luck. I’m off to somethng else.
Comment by unbelievable
No I want to truth … just like on History channel or Discovery channel they break it all down and show science.. that is all I ask… I believe them when they do it … you are no different. Being right means nothing to me because I disdain EGO… I want truth.
May 8th, 2006 at 4:51 pmyou are no different.
Comment by Gerald Gibson — May 8, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
I’m technically an expert. I’m jsuttired of talking about this. I’ve posted atleast 100 educational and explanatory posts on how and why the towers collapses as they did. I’m tired of trying to explain it to people who want me to prove a negative.
Here’s another expert’s description for you:
“These buildings were incredibly strong, especially with respect to resisting dead loads and wind loads, but they also had a number of vulnerabilities,” Hamburger told a packed auditorium on Nov. 29 when he delivered the second John A. Blume Distinguished Lecture — an annual event sponsored by Stanford’s Blume Earthquake Engineering Center.
“What New York City experienced on Sept. 11 was very much like an earthquake,” he told the Stanford audience. “Life loss exceeded anything we in the United States have experienced in an earthquake, and the financial loss exceeded anything we’ve experienced — and it all occurred within one square mile.”
Using photographs of the WTC taken before, during and after the Sept. 11 assaults, Hamburger presented a brief chronology of events. He noted that the first jetliner banked into the north tower at a 45-degree angle, damaging floors 92 to 95. About 40 minutes later, the second jet crashed into the south tower, hitting floors 78 to 84.
According to Hamburger’s preliminary analysis, the impact of the jetliners shattered and fractured two-thirds of the support columns on one face of each tower, causing the partial collapse of several floors. Debris penetrated each building’s core and may have damaged the core columns located in the center of the 110-story structures.
“The damaged columns held up the weight of the building, so logic would dictate that the building would fall,” said Hamburger, “but that didn’t happen. Because of its great structural redundancy, the load was distributed to other parts of the building. We have reason to believe that, without the fire, the buildings could have stood indefinitely and been repaired. But we did have a fire.”
Hamburger noted that the fuel in both jetliners burned off rapidly, despite media reports that the aircraft continued burning long after the crash.
“The impact probably caused a failure of the fireproofing in the affected areas,” he said. “We think that the fuel ignited several floors in the building,” he added, which had a devastating effect on the steel support beams.
“Steel is born of fire,” Hamburger explained. “As it’s reheated, it expands and loses its rigidity. Above 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, it loses a significant amount of its strength.”
He said the extreme heat from the fires might have caused the steel floors to expand and bow, which may have caused the support columns to bend inward and buckle. Heat also may have caused the steel flooring to separate from the columns, or the columns themselves may have heated up and buckled outward.
Hamburger and his colleagues have not yet determined which of these scenarios occurred on Sept. 11, but there is little doubt that the collapse of the upper floors of the WTC towers brought down both structures.
“Think of the impact of dropping a 25-story building straight down,” Hamburger told the audience. “It was like a pile driver, which is why it collapsed as it did.”
While acknowledging the many innovations that went into the design of the WTC towers in the 1960s — including one of the earliest applications of computer stress analysis — Hamburger also cited several features that made the buildings vulnerable to the intense fires that ultimately caused their collapse.
“The floor trusses [joists] were relatively flimsy. As the tower collapsed, the trusses just fell apart,” he observed, noting that trusses are difficult to fireproof.
Hamburger noted that each tower was constructed using a novel tube frame system designed to resist winds of up to 80 miles per hour. But the connections of the tube frame were weak, causing them to break apart and become three-pronged missiles that crashed into the street and into nearby buildings.
http://news-service.stanford.edu/news/2001/december5/wtc-125.html
May 8th, 2006 at 5:00 pm[...] Think Progress [...]
May 8th, 2006 at 5:11 pmFrist and Hastert – the mischievous Bobbsey twins of Congress.
May 8th, 2006 at 5:26 pmThey have the brass balls to insert vaccine protection into a defense bill, and now we learn that Hastert’s son and Frist’s former aides were given the royal treatment – and we were given the royal scepter.
photographs — not videos ..not seismographs … anyone could fill in the gaps with anything with just phots…
He noted that the first jetliner banked into the north tower at a 45-degree angle, damaging floors 92 to 95. About 40 minutes later, the second jet crashed into the south tower, hitting floors 78 to 84.
These are facts.
preliminary analysis that is not a fact.
the impact of the jetliners shattered and fractured two-thirds of the support columns on one face of each tower, causing the partial collapse of several floors.
This is NOT fact. It is opinion based on a hypothesis.
may have damaged the core columns located in the center of the 110-story structures.
May have? That doesnt sound like FACT…
“The damaged columns held up the weight of the building, so logic would dictate that the building would fall,†said Hamburger
This is an assumption based on his May Have above … not convincing yet.
Because of its great structural redundancy, the load was distributed to other parts of the building.
Yep I have heard this same thing about many other buildings that have had damage in other situations including the Empire State Building…
We have reason to believe that, without the fire, the buildings could have stood indefinitely and been repaired. But we did have a fire.â€
He sure did have reason to believe because that is how the buildings were designed… As for the fire there were humans …liquid baring bodies of fire fighters that were standing there and they were not evaported by some huge fire which according to them did not exist. And since the fuel burnt away quickly there was no way for it to exist.
“The impact probably caused a failure of the fireproofing in the affected areas,†he said
Probably? That isnt a fact.. that is a guess…
“We think that the fuel ignited several floors in the building,†he added
We think … more guessing … that is not what History Channel does when they are breaking down the exact facts about a situation. Fire fighters that were there said it was under control….
“Steel is born of fire,†Hamburger explained. “As it’s reheated, it expands and loses its rigidity. Above 1,000 degrees Fahrenheit, it loses a significant amount of its strength.â€
He cannot prove how hot it got and test done by UL show that it would have had to been over 1000 degrees for over 24 hours to have that effect…
He said the extreme heat from the fires might have caused the steel floors to expand and bow, which may have caused the support columns to bend inward and buckle. Heat also may have caused the steel flooring to separate from the columns, or the columns themselves may have heated up and buckled outward.
Might have…May have…May have… more guess work … I am not convinced.
Hamburger and his colleagues have not yet determined which of these scenarios occurred on Sept. 11, but there is little doubt that the collapse of the upper floors of the WTC towers brought down both structures.
Based on what facts?
“Think of the impact of dropping a 25-story building straight down,†Hamburger told the audience. “It was like a pile driver, which is why it collapsed as it did.â€
Why think about a pile driver? He has not shown that any such thing occured? Just to get an image so that I can latch on to it with no facts backing it up?
“The floor trusses [joists] were relatively flimsy. As the tower collapsed, the trusses just fell apart,†he observed, noting that trusses are difficult to fireproof.
Really? Where is the freakin evidence that this is based on?
You think I have not already seen this guy statements? I have and alot more. I have already compared his statements and many others with known scientific facts and it does not match… this is just like the 911 commision.. Maybe this … Might have that… we think… we dont know … guess … hypothesis… etc. etc… that is NOTHING like what I see when a scientist explains how a chemical reaction occurs… or how a air liner loses a section of its fuselage over Hawaii…. this is a joke.
May 8th, 2006 at 5:29 pmGerald…:)
May 8th, 2006 at 5:37 pmWhen History Channel or Discovery Channel explain something that I dont understand they break it down and then I do. Is that so much to ask?
When History Channel says something but they dont back it up or their evidence is flimsy I get on the Internet and look it up… is that some great heroic act that no one else does? Am I the only one? Surely not. If someone tells me 1 + 1 = 3 is it wrong to ask them to explain HOW? Or is that a nutty conspiracy theorist thing to do?
May 8th, 2006 at 5:43 pmThe republicans should be more worried about an AIDS vaccine at this point. Their homosexual behavior puts them more at risk than anyone.
May 8th, 2006 at 5:57 pmGerald,
It’s all speculation without being there. At least they are honest about that. You can no more PROVE what happened exactly on 9/11 than you can prove the Big Bang (or gravity for that matter). It’s about observing the data and drawing a theory. And this one is far more credible than the other two out there. But, you’re entitled to want to meet Adam and Eve. Just don’t be surprised when no one can deliver. Your asking for something that is simply not possible without recreating an exact replica and doing it exactly all over again, while viewing it from every possible angle. Somethings we just cannot know.
And when a plane hits something, there is a fire. Just because the fire fighters didn’t see it on the ground isn’t conclusive. The fact that the basement was still smoldering months later when they uncovered it is about as close to proof as you may be able to get at this point. Maybe it’s not ebough for you. That’s your prerogative. I just don’t share it.
Enjoy your evening.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:01 pm#240
And the folks at WorldNetDaily belong to your side of the aisle Mighty.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:05 pmSMART PEOPLE:
Isn’t this why we need a line-item veto – so that the Prez will be accountable for pork and late-night additions like this as well as the congress?
May 8th, 2006 at 6:22 pmI can’t imagine why any company in its right mind would want to manufacture a vaccine, especially one to be used in an epidemic. Time is likely to be short, so extensive safety testing will be impossible–and even the standard vaccines in current use kill people occasionally. And in an epidemic, the vaccine will be taken by a huge number of people, so even a tiny risk could translate into thousands of people harmed, and ruinous lawsuits. What is more, it will probably be necessary to vaccinate early on, before the spread of the disease is clear. Indeed, if the vaccine works really well, it is likely that the epidemic will be aborted, and the number of people harmed by the vaccine could easily exceed the number of people harmed by the disease–and this is if the vaccine works. In such a case, it would be easy for an aggressive attorney to paint the manufacturer as pushing an unnecessary treatment that killed thousands of people. And of course, if the vaccine doesn’t work very well, there is potential liability there as well.
So I think we have a choice: withhold liability protection, and run a very high risk that there will be no vaccine when bird flu, or ebola, or some other emerging disease cuts through the population like a scythe through wheat, or acknowledge the fact that when we take a vaccine, we are accepting a small risk in hopes of preventing a larger one.
Personally, I’d rather have the option of taking a vaccine that might be dangerous than have no choice at all because the guys who might have made it were too afraid of being sued.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:27 pmHeather, are you really Mighty Aphfrodite? If so, admit it and explain to us why you continue to hide behind more than one alias as well as expouse the usual crap that
May 8th, 2006 at 6:27 pmmany of us know is full of crap.
oh no, someone’s trying to debate unbelievable about the wtc again!
all i can say is… unbelievable, in ALL other circumstances you come across as a very open-minded person. then this debate comes up and you seem to turn away from that open-mindedness. i think the only concession that anybody wants you to make, which you don’t seem to be able to, is that it is possible that there is another explanation for what happened.
and sorry, your stock answer – 6 years of college and 14 years of experience – isn’t good enough. there are several other people out there with more schooling and experience that contend otherwise. say what you want, but if you can discount them as “kooks” or conspiracy theorists, it means the same can be done to you. the education and experience factor is a non-starter.
btw, the firefighters that saw the fire weren’t the ones “on the ground” – there are recordings of firefighters in the south tower that had made it up to the 78th floor. the fireman in charge (chief palmer) reported “two isolated pockets of fire”, and requested two hoses to knock it down.
“isolated pockets of fire”?
only 2 hoses to put out a “raging,” over 1000-degree fire?
once again, why so stubborn, unbelievable? why can’t you concede that there could be another explanation?
May 8th, 2006 at 6:33 pmEveryone,
May 8th, 2006 at 6:39 pmThis thread is supposed to be about Hastert’s and Frist’s gift to big pharma. You have let Heather-troll, the supposed professor who apparently has never heard of the question mark (?) to end sentences that are clearly questions, divert the subject to the civil rights movement, Dumbya’s supposed greatness on security, etc. Let’s ignore her and get back on subject.
And incidentally, Heather, Angela Merkel hardly won by an overwhelming majority in Germany. And there are reasons other than support for the Bush war for politicians to win in their respective countries. In Japan, for example, support for the Iraq war is very low, but Koizumi, friend to George Bush, and his LDP won because of other issues and because the general public likes his colorful personality. However, in the most recent by-election to replace a ruling party MP who was forced to resign because of corruption (a very familiar theme), the leading opposition candidate, a 26-year old woman, won over the LDP candidate, despite the heavy campaigning for him by Koizumi and several LDP bigwigs. Support for the Iraq War isn’t strong in the UK, Spain or Italy, either.
also, with regard to the debris…
yes it was sent to staten island, BUT:
– from the nytimes
and there is much more here
don’t deny the facts! you can scream “whack job” and “conspiracy nut” all you want, but all you’re proving is that you’d rather believe the same people that refuse to give you all the evidence.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:49 pmGood point, Lora. Let’s continue by asking Mighty Aphrodite how she feels about politicians influencing medical companies to screw around with the lives of people who deserve vaccination.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:50 pmlora,
true enough, but in my experience on TP, once a thread reaches 200+ comments, it becomes about anything, and that’s fair game.
you’re right about heather, though — pure backwash.
and really — on thread — who’s actually surprised that frist, whose family is heavily invested in hca, would let pharmaceutical companies write legislation? it may be news to some, but i thought this was already known.
i guess i follow the misadventures of frist a bit more closely because i used to live in tennessee…and will be again soon.
May 8th, 2006 at 6:58 pmi think the only concession that anybody wants you to make, which you don’t seem to be able to, is that it is possible that there is another explanation for what happened.
Comment by Progressaurus Rex — May 8, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
Nonsense. I’m the only one who has said that I could be wrong. Go check the archives Rex. I even said it to you.
I also said that while the Offical Version might be total crap, so is the Conspiracy Theory. It lacks a valid answer to a valid question. If this was to wage a war with Iraq, then why wasn’t a single hijacker from Iraq? And it also violates Occum’s Razor. That the simpliest explanation is the most valid. Sorry, but I’ve seen the Conspiracy argument. It’s full of holes. And if you’re suggesting that I ignore them, then well, it’s not me who is unyielding.
May 8th, 2006 at 7:04 pmbut all you’re proving is that you’d rather believe the same people that refuse to give you all the evidence.
Comment by Progressaurus Rex — May 8, 2006 @ 6:49 pm
I’m not ‘believing’ anyone but myself, Rex. That’s the thing. I’m an Atheist because I choose to define my own ideology myself – not adopt someone else’s version. I’m not on board with the Conspiracy Theory because I see a valid explanation that does not require explosives, or if there were explosives implicate that our government sponsored the attack.
I’m not adopting the Official Story. I NEVER said that and the fact that you keep trying to put those words in my mouth makes me wonder if your eyes are really fully open.
The majority in my profession do not agree with the handful who suggest a conspiracy. That makes me the majority.
And I still cannot prove a negative. No one can. You have to prove the alternative theory to the majority accepted opinion. And in my opinion, that hasn’t been done. Sorry if people don’t like it. They usually don’t like that I’m an Atheist either. But I don’t live my life by other people’s terms.
May 8th, 2006 at 7:13 pmTo Progressaurus Rex,
May 8th, 2006 at 7:15 pmI was not particularly surprised that Frist is making another gift to big Pharma; I simply wonder how many times he’s going to be allowed to get away with it. I’m not from Tennessee but do follow the cat killer’s career a bit, since he is supposed to have presidential ambitions.
Dear ProgREX, Lora and the aptly named JimBOOB – DEMOCRAP Trial lawyers, specializing in “malpractice” and “personal injury” law are the driving force behind TP’s OUTRAGE about the input of the Vaccine Companies in legislation. I know this will shock you, but from the lawyers perspective it’s about the $$$.
“Democrats – THE Party OF NO Constructive Ideas” officially trumpets the sum total of Democrap ideas to complex, modern problems. As I noted before you three woke from your naps, you would be the first to viciously attack the Bush administration for a “Katrina Like” response if no new vaccines were being developed by the “greedy, evil” pharma CORPorations. Well you can’t have it both ways. Democrap freeloaders would COMPLAIN no matter WHAT the administration or Repubs in Congress did. NO new ideas – but the BEST WHINERS IN TOWN!!!
May 8th, 2006 at 7:38 pm#246 – Dear “white bread and mayo” Gerald Gibson – Your anti-Semite/Carlyle Group/conspiracies remind me of Alex Jones, the moonbat over at prisonplanet.com. Stronger meds might help , but that would involve the “EVIL” pharma industry….You know they’re all out to GET YOU – but especially the Jews….lions, and tigers and bears, oh my……
I’ll ask the doctor to check on you later…..
May 8th, 2006 at 7:52 pmThis is not the first time this has happened. The Homeland Security bill also included Eli Lily written legislation to protect them from legal action on Smallpox vaccination damage as well as to fend of class action lawsuits from parents whose kids got Autism because of the mercury in Eli’s vaccinations. Remember the Anthrax scare? The Smallpox scare? Well, when too many medical professionals and scientist protested against mandatory vaccination, they had to create another fear. Enter the bird flu.
First of all, organic free range grazing would eliminate the problem. Secondly, I am of the firm belief based on researchers I know who used to work in the industry that the Bird Flu is a man made disease, cooked up in the labs of the drug companies so they can then create a ‘vaccination’ and profit off of it.
Create legislation to mandate a program and required shots, the drug companies get billions in tax dollars, and in the meantime people like me who have already been vaccination damaged get a high risk of death because we are forced to take the vaccination when in reality, a high dose of oregano oil and probiotics would likely do the body more good than the vaccination.
If you think corporations haven’t been creating diseases to profit, then ask yourself why the richest company in the world has one of the highest birth morality rates and autoimmune diseases? That is just the start.
May 8th, 2006 at 8:07 pm[...] [From Think Progress] [...]
May 8th, 2006 at 8:08 pmdon’t feed the trolls
May 8th, 2006 at 8:15 pmright, i’m back.
mighty tripey -> off to brownshirt wonderland with you, backwash.
unbelievable:
i’m no atheist (actually i call myself an apostate), and my feeling is that ALL of the current explanations are full of holes. my only contention is that the “accepted” story is also a conspiracy theory. i don’t believe the purpose was iraq — not immediately, anyway — i believe the purpose was a new version of the cold war (an open-ended war against an ‘ism’) and license to plow over nations, like afghanistan, that had either oil resources or were quite convenient for a nice pipeline we had planned. in other words, a large-scale effort to reinvigorate american hegemony, under the guise of a noble “crusade”.
and incidentally, occum’s razor isn’t violated in the least by the predominate alternate theory. i say this because of this distinction: the “OV” may be the easiest explanation for most to believe, but it certainly isn’t the simplest explanation. not given the established facts (or the realities, which are that, for some inexplicable reason, certain bits of crucial evidence are being withheld from the public. why?). i would contend that part of the evidence worth considering in this case is the unfortunate truth that crucial information is being withheld by the very same proponents of the OV.
i should add that i do address you with all due respect; i don’t want this to be a contentious exchange…
lora:
frist is basically a republican weather balloon. he’ll say anything based on which way the wind is blowing amongst his partisans. witness the good “doctor” — he opposes stem cell research, has stated publicly (despite all knowledge to the contrary) that aids can be transmitted via tears and sweat, and of course who can forget his famous ‘video diagnosis’ of terry schiavo.
to his credit, he did establish the reputable frist center for the fine arts in downtown nashville. i still have to shake my head in confusion and wonder at that one.
May 8th, 2006 at 8:33 pm[Comment removed by administrator.]
May 8th, 2006 at 8:37 pmno, squegebackwash,
May 8th, 2006 at 8:42 pmit wasn’t syrup, it was only koolaid
Mighty Hypocrite,
May 8th, 2006 at 8:44 pmSince you are apparently still alive (though probably brain-dead) and trolling, let me remind you that you still have not answered the question posed more than 24 hours ago about what your so-called “reliable sources” about Ted Kennedy’s passenger Mary Jo Kopechne’s cause of death and autopsy–one of your favorite diversionary subjects–are.
And I don’t need you to tell me how I would respond to an avian flu crisis, and I’m sure the other people you named in your latest rant feel the same. You are too narrow-minded even to consider the possibility between one extreme lack-of-response and an extreme protect-only-big pharma response. Speaking of lack of idea, eh?
For someone who claims to be educated and a lawyer, you certainly have quite a chip-on-your-shoulder attitude towards professors and supposedly fellow attorneys.
Progressaurus Rex,
if it was koolaid, then the pancake theory makes no sense, only syrup would fit in, syrup, or large quantites of butter patties, or maybes berries in sauce, by syrup is the most logical assumption.
May 8th, 2006 at 8:45 pmI’ll let John Le Carre, the author of ‘The Constant Gardener’ sum this utter Congressional malfeasence up; “Nobody in this story (referring to the movie) and no outfit or corporation thank God is based upon an actual person or outfit in the real world but I can tell you this as my journey through the Pharmaceutical Jungle progressed I came to realize that by comparison with the reality, my story was as tame as a holiday postcard.” -Richard
May 8th, 2006 at 8:56 pm#246 – Dear “white bread and mayo†Gerald Gibson – Your anti-Semite/Carlyle Group/conspiracies remind me of Alex Jones, the moonbat over at prisonplanet.com. Stronger meds might help , but that would involve the “EVIL†pharma industry….You know they’re all out to GET YOU – but especially the Jews….lions, and tigers and bears, oh my……
I’ll ask the doctor to check on you later…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Being PRO American is NOT being anti-semite you racist.
Or do you support the Israeli attack on the USS Liberty?
May 8th, 2006 at 8:57 pmhttp://www.ussliberty.org/
Gerald,
It’s all speculation without being there. At least they are honest about that. You can no more PROVE what happened exactly on 9/11 than you can prove the Big Bang (or gravity for that matter). It’s about observing the data and drawing a theory. And this one is far more credible than the other two out there. But, you’re entitled to want to meet Adam and Eve. Just don’t be surprised when no one can deliver. Your asking for something that is simply not possible without recreating an exact replica and doing it exactly all over again, while viewing it from every possible angle. Somethings we just cannot know.
And when a plane hits something, there is a fire. Just because the fire fighters didn’t see it on the ground isn’t conclusive. The fact that the basement was still smoldering months later when they uncovered it is about as close to proof as you may be able to get at this point. Maybe it’s not ebough for you. That’s your prerogative. I just don’t share it.
Enjoy your evening.
Comment by unbelievable
First it looks like this turned into an argument and though I have debated this with you before I do not want you to take it as an attack….
BUT
This is not like the Big Bang…. detectives deal with stuff like this all the time… human beings do bad things and then detectives catch them. Murders that are very difficult to figure out but with the help of forensic science they can crack it… this happened on such a big scale with cameras and seismographs and fire fighters on the INSIDE etc…. There are photos showing the lobby area of WTC2 … All the glass was blown out… why? The building hadnt fallen yet. The places hit way up top… yet something blew up down below where you can see smoke rising from down there in the video on youtube that I linked earlier. These types of things are not something to just shrug at…. these are the things that you connect the dots between… that is how these things get solved… another thing detectives do is look for who profited from the crime. That is a biggy .. if a guy is found dead mysteriously and then you find out his wife got a big insurance payout then you start looking at her and any people she might have met and paid to bump off her husband…. that is the way these things work … it is called SCIENCE. Just because you and many others are too afraid to look at the videos because you dont want to see the horrible truth doesnt mean that it isnt sitting there every minute being the truth that it is…
May 8th, 2006 at 9:06 pmRex,
As long as you equate my position to the Official Theory, then the conversation is pointless. I do not support any theory expect that of my professions – the towers can and did fall based on the reality of the planes crashing ointo the towers. You keep tying what I’m saying back to the Official Explanation when that is not my stance. Makes it hard to have a discussion when no one is really listening to what I’m saying and just keep assuming I support the Official Story – and then debate that.
Personally, for me, until I see something new, I see no reason to re-rash the same issue. I’d rather discuss other things.
May 8th, 2006 at 9:19 pm#289
“Personally, for me, until I see something new, I see no reason to re-rash the same issue. I’d rather discuss other things.”
So, miracle whip, or Mayonaise? I think mayonaise, much better flavor. Your take on it?
May 8th, 2006 at 9:25 pmJust because you and many others are too afraid to look at the videos because you dont want to see the horrible truth doesnt mean that it isnt sitting there every minute being the truth that it is…
Comment by Gerald Gibson — May 8, 2006 @ 9:06 pm
I’m not afraid Gerald. I wouldn’t be here if I were. You seem convinced that I would change my mind if I saw what you’ve seen. Well, I have seen most of the same stuff that you have. It doesn’t change my mind.
I’m not afraid. And suggesting that I am is unfair. And it’s insulting, because it says that I am irrational. I’m not irrational. I just disagree based on my experience.
Next subject…
May 8th, 2006 at 9:27 pmSo, miracle whip, or Mayonaise? I think mayonaise, much better flavor. Your take on it?
Comment by squegeeboo — May 8, 2006 @ 9:25 pm
I’m vegan. No animals products (eggs come from chickens you know).
By the way, GURU is E.Coli is Denny. If you click on his name you get a nonsensical web address that is different, but consistent in its delivery in each case.
Denny was http://www.lol.com – and they follow suit. He’s also something else.
And I-RIGHT-I was some how worse? At least he formed complete sentances. And wasn’t really psychotic.
Anyway, let’s go debate the Karl Rove matter in that forum Squeegie…
May 8th, 2006 at 9:32 pm“I’m vegan. No animals products (eggs come from chickens you know).”
No the chickens come from the eggs. I’m fairly sure of this, but wait, first the eggs come from chickens, but those also came from eggs….can’t think, stuck in recursive loop….NOOOOOO
Alright, see you in the other thread, I appear to have primed the pump properly over there.
May 8th, 2006 at 9:35 pmNow back to the topic of this thread……
Hmmmmm….I wonder how much $$$$ Democrat Trial Attorneys contribute to Center for American Progress FUND???
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 8, 2006 @ 7:18 pm
Hey,MA why don’t you ask Kennie boy?? or Rush dumb bag or even O’Liely. They hate trail attorneys. Heck, they think you should not hide behind them and just “step into the box”. Just like O’liely and Rush did. Brave men who back up their words with deeds. These guys don’t hide behind high priced lawyers, they just tell like it is. You are a complete piece of worthless crap.
May 8th, 2006 at 9:49 pmHey Ma, I still stand by my post to you yesterday. Fat, sweaty, lonely loser. You can’t respond to that can you? Your just like IRI. Dumb fu*ks. Just spout out talking points. You don’t have an orginal thought in your bitty brain-do you? You can’t develope and post a coherent debate. When confronted with your sickness you hide. Why don’t you pick a serious problem that we face and present and informed logical presentation of your position. Try to leave out Clintons b.j and Hillary.
May 8th, 2006 at 10:28 pmCan we say government corruption under Republican leadership.
May 9th, 2006 at 12:03 amM.A. You keep changing the subject an duck out instead of facing them head on. Do you approve of an adminidtration like the Chimperor’s that restricts us taking the vaccine just in case the Avian flu or anything lethal hits us? Lora asked you about it and you chose to ignore it. I asked about it and you chose to ignore me and resort to petty insults.
Just answer the question. Is that so hard?
May 9th, 2006 at 12:05 amMighty Hypocrite…. can you please volunteer to be the first to take the Avian vaccine??? That would certainly kill two birds with one stone pardon the pun!!!! low life scum bag!!!
May 9th, 2006 at 12:06 amSquegeeboo:
You’re so typical of Republicanazis today. You can’t possibly debate Frist and Hastert’s slimy behavior. The members of the conference committee were assured the indemnity language was not in the bill, and they – literally – in the middle of the night, stuck it in.
But no, you’d rather try to debate the issue of whether or not the indemnity is or isn’t an appropriate remedy. Great diversion, but no soap. Know what I think about it? Guess what? What you or I think about it is irrelevant – it’s whether or not Frist and Hastert have crossed a line by doing whatever they damn well pleased, regardless of the committee vote. Flip the party affiliations and pretend two Democrats did the same thing and you and your political classmates from Screw U would be going apo-f*%@ing-plectic. Go ahead….I dare you to make a case that what they did was OK.
Bottom line on this topic: F&H are slimeballs and hipocrits like you – who seemingly beleive in the Constitution and the rule of law and all that’s sacred in playing by the rules – readily reward their behavior. You’re similarly slimy or you’ve completely bought into the mindless (makes it easy for you) belief that it must be OK because a Republican did it. You will all be ashamed of yourself someday. Wait . . . strike that.
May 9th, 2006 at 12:13 am“Democrats – THE Party OF NO Constructive Ideas†officially trumpets the sum total of Democrap ideas to complex, modern problems. As I noted before you three woke from your naps, you would be the first to viciously attack the Bush administration for a “Katrina Like†response if no new vaccines were being developed by the “greedy, evil†pharma CORPorations. Well you can’t have it both ways. Democrap freeloaders would COMPLAIN no matter WHAT the administration or Repubs in Congress did. NO new ideas – but the BEST WHINERS IN TOWN!!!
Comment by mighty aphrodite — May 8, 2006 @ 7:38 pm
Really? The right for women to vote and blacks. Social security, Minimun wage, Child labor laws, federal requlation of banks, Medicare–Won WW2– WTF have you got? The worst president in American history..The largest increase in the number of federal employees.the largest federal debt since Regan..the virtual disamation of our milatary!! You are such a loser! You back losers. You don’t have a clue..Do you?? Just a piece of crap. Aren’t you? Have a nice day. I know you and those like you..cowards and freaks..hide behind your keyboard..your less than a one cell. Not cell phone. O.k, freak..shoot back and give it your best shot. You won’t will you? I repeat..COWARD! Just like IRI. Scum!!
May 9th, 2006 at 12:36 amrepublicanstheirownworstenemy ……. THANKS!!!!!!!
May 9th, 2006 at 12:37 am[...] Looks like our friends overseas have done it again. … inserted a provision in the Defense Appropriations bill that granted vaccine manufactures near-total immunity for injuries or deaths (even in cases of “gross negligenceâ€) caused by their drugs during a viral pandemic, such as an outbreak of the avian flu.. There’s liability out the window for ya. Which means they don’t have to make quality drugs. A friend of mine once argued that capitalism is superior, because people are forced to compete which leads to development of technology et al. Well, it looks like this is the other side of the coin. Comments » [...]
May 9th, 2006 at 12:52 amTHESE GUYS ARE ALL F*CKING CRIMINALS AND SHOULD BE LOCKED UP FOR LIFE AS FAR AS I’M CONCERNED!
May 9th, 2006 at 3:11 amIsn’t all this EXACTLY what we said Frist would do? And nowwe have another FIRST for the Bush Cabal in appointing a Military guy to head up the CIA (amazing how many “Firsts” we have here; trouble is NONE of them are GOOD ones!) Setting us up for MARTIAL LAW, is what they’re doing, since they’d never be able to hold onto power in a REAL Democracy!
People like Heather better YANK THEIR HEADS OUTTA THERE BEFORE IT’S TOO LATE! It’s DARK and very STINKY up there! (but, poor Dear, she’s so up to her neck in ELEPHANT poop, she doesn’t even notice! )
Perhaps a visit from Reality Chick would help?
Check out
http://www.RealityChickComix.com
Granny B
May 9th, 2006 at 11:31 amThe reason we have legal/financial accountability is to ensure that companies invest in good research and development. By not holding the manufacturers accountable we significantly reduce the safety and efficacy of the vaccine…
Comment by Punkin’ #142
Thanks Punkin’,
…maybe YOU can reach queasybooger (aka. squegeeboo)…
May 9th, 2006 at 12:23 pmWe’re already in a pandemic, anything to get out of it is worth a shot.
Comment by squegeeboo #123
I know we are not currently in a pandemic, I was refering to being in a pandemic, which is the only point where this law would be in effect.
Comment by squegeeboo #145
For the record:
The above posts by queasybooger (aka squegeeboo)…
…are the EXACT reasons I avoid “debating” right wing Bushite inbreds…
…they lie, and forget they’ve lied…
…hmmm, I wonder who else does that?
May 9th, 2006 at 12:30 pmI am at a complete loss, I cannot understand how Congressmen and Senators can debate, discuss ,obfusticate, beat themselves on the breast for days or weeks to pass a sp ending bill. Then somehow all kinds of additional spending, favors, tax breaks seem to show up in the final approved version of the Bill or Law.
Comment by vs1d12 #125
vs1d12,
The SAME way they can beat their chests, and scream how outrageous their colleagues’ behaviors are…
…when it comes to ethics and lobbyists…
…convince one MONSTER (Delay) to resign, then replace him with a WORSE MONSTER (Boehner)…
…then pass a gutless, NOTHING Ethics Reform Bill…
…When you’ve got a “captive audience”:
1) People more worried about losing their jobs, no healthcare for their children, choosing between buying gas or medicine, and losing their pensions…
2) Afraid terrorists are going to blow them up…
3) that same sex couples are going to bring down the wrath of God on their already cursed country…
4) afraid that the Mexicans are going to take back that which (al Crackers) took from them…namely their lands…
5) Blacks and other “lowl brow”, unworthy, unsavory 3/5 ths subhumans are going to get the opportunity to go to Wharton’s Business School, Harvard Law or some other prestigious school and “level the playing field”…
…when you’e got people’s minds on those kinds of issues…
…it’s easy to rob them blind, take away their constitutional and civil rights, and make them believe ANYTHING you want them to…
…just make them FEEL safe, tell ‘em what they want to hear…
…and they’re like gullible inebriated spinster…
…being taken for a ride in the hay…
…by a suave philanderer…
May 9th, 2006 at 12:51 pmIn all jobs and professions there are: the exceptional, the qualified, the lazy, the biased, etc.
How did President Clinton respond to terror attacks during his administration???
Comment by Mighty Hypocrite
To Mighty Hypocrite
May 9th, 2006 at 6:11 pmSo we may assume that you are among the lazy, biased, etc. in your profession, right?
There were some arrests of the plotters of the first attack on the WTC during the Clinton adminisration. By contrast, the last time I recall Bush mentioning Osama bin Laden (bin who?), the person responsible for 9/11, Dumbya said that OBL wasn’t much on his mind. Instead, he attached Iraq , a country which had nothing to do with 9/11, which I guess to you means “standing up to our enemies.” In reality, your hero made Iraq into an enemy.
Incidentally, you still haven’t provided your sources for insisting that Ted Kennedy’s passenger Mary Jo Kopechne underwent an autopsy and died of suffocation, though this is one of your favorite diversionary topics. If you are going to keep on insisting that your “facts” are right, why can’t you cite the sources?
I thought that Hastert’s and Frist’s actions–sneaking a gift to big Pharma into a bill in the dead of night despite their promises to other lawmakers concerned that they wouldn’t–would be viewed as too egregrious for even the recihwing trolls to defend. Whatever one may think of the need for an avian flu vaccine, their actions were clearly undemocratic and dictatorial. I wonder why the Congress hasn’t outlawed such sneaky and dishonest behavior by now.
May 9th, 2006 at 6:28 pmWell, Heather-troll simply tried (and succeeded for a while) to divert the topic to other ones. But Squeegeboo, who has admitted on other threads to be “retarded,” actually defended Frist and Hastert. So where does that leave Mighty Hypocrite, who came up with his/her vitrolic attack on Democrats and those who oppose Congressional leaders who act undemocratically and merely fatten their own already fat pockets? What an ugly excuse for a human being!
Crickets are chirping……..Looks like squegeeboo has turned tail and run….can’t possibly defend his position with logic and reason. Typical spineless troll bullshit artist.
May 9th, 2006 at 11:11 pmAphrodite wrote: “Have the Democraps proposed any new ideas in the last 20 years – besides cowering in the face of our enemy …”
As any male knows, it is better to choose your fights than to rush headlong into everything. The United States has the mightiest military in the world, but that doesn’t mean it has to go off half-cocked. Surely the counterproductive quagmire of Iraq is not a testament to Republican courage “in the face of the enemy?” Brave, but stupid? (That’s how Homer described Diomedes, a virtual killing machine as he laid about himself with his sword. Ever so often Diomedes became confused, though, and it was good that Odysseus was around for the brain stuff. Remember, Aphrodite …?)
The Democrats don’t need any “new” ideas. That’s a red herring. Just undoing the evil that the Republicans have done is an agenda-and-half. If anything, it would be a “new” idea to inscribe in huge letters somewhere in Washington: “DO NOT GO OFF HALF-COCKED!”
May 10th, 2006 at 1:34 amWell Gail and Elizabeth it looks like your evidence didnt exist after all.. you never posted back here and I received no email… so much for the WTC tower rubble being checked by detectives and forensic scientists…
May 10th, 2006 at 1:30 pm[...] By sneaking around in the middle of the night, Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist was able to slip a multi-billion dollar boon for the drug industry that had already been rejectedinto a defense bill. Not only was this an unprecedented circumvention of the Democratic process, it involved insider interests and nepotism. Isn’t Congress supposed to be focusing on cleaning up this sort of corruption this year? There doesn’t seem to be much concern about this on Capitol Hill, though. [...]
May 12th, 2006 at 1:27 pm[...] From Think Progress: [...]
May 16th, 2006 at 4:13 pm[...] 87. Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) and House Speaker Dennis Hastert (R-IL) inserted a provision in the Defense Appropriations bill that granted vaccine manufactures near-total immunity for injuries or deaths, even in cases of “gross negligence.” [Link] [...]
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