Telco Liability: Falkenrath Gets It Wrong
Telco Liability: Falkenrath Gets It Wrong
On Thursday, ThinkProgress argued that the telcos could be liable for tens of billions of dollars for turning over phone records to the government in violation of the Stored Communications Act. In this morning’s New York Times, law professor Orrin Kerr agrees:
Orin Kerr, a former federal prosecutor and assistant professor at George Washington University, said his reading of the relevant statutes put the phone companies at risk for at least $1,000 per person whose records they disclosed without a court order.
“This is not a happy day for the general counsels” of the phone companies, he said. “If you have a class action involving 10 million Americans, that’s 10 million times $1,000 — that’s 10 billion.”
In today’s Washington Post, Richard A. Falkenrath – former deputy assistant to President Bush – takes the opposite view. Here’s Falkenrath’s argument:
The three companies reported to have supplied telephone records to the NSA also appear to be acting lawfully….[T]he Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986 explicitly permits telecommunications companies to provide customer records to the government if the government asks for them.
Actually, that’s false. The relevant portion of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act – known as the Stored Communications Act – explicitly prohibits voluntary or required disclosure of phone records to the government with several limited exceptions. (See 18 U.S.C. 2702-03.) As we explained here and here none of those exceptions apply.
It’s clear from his column that Falkenrath is obviously a huge fan of Michael Hayden, the administration, and the NSA program. That’s fine, but it doesn’t change the law or the telcos’ potential liability for turning over the phone records of tens of millions of Americans.
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It is official, the people supporting Bush and everything he does-can't read!
May 13th, 2006 at 11:51 amThe Washington Post will certainly go to great lengths to support Bush. What's up with that? First the premature poll gets big headlines, and then this op-ed--which doesn't even make sense: if the data are so thoroughly "anonymized" how can they lead to a specific individual?
May 13th, 2006 at 11:53 amI have been so pissed off at this illegal so called administration for 5 plus years now, and this illegal spying just pisses me off more, so my other half and I just came up with the best one for them yet:
At the end of every e-mail and telephone conversation we will use the following:
To you spies listening in My name is ______, and we believe that GWBush should be impeached and tried at the hague.
May 13th, 2006 at 11:56 amYou know:
I have been so pissed off at this illegal so called administration for 5 plus years now, and this illegal spying just pisses me off more, so my other half and I just came up with the best one for them yet:
At the end of every e-mail and telephone conversation we will use the following:
To you spies listening in My name is ______, and we believe that GWBush should be impeached and tried at the hague.
May 13th, 2006 at 11:57 amMotion filed to intervene in AT&T secrets case
1 hour, 37 minutes ago
WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. government filed a motion on Saturday to intervene and seek dismissal of a lawsuit by a civil liberties group against AT&T Inc
Looks like the Telco's have been promised by the bush crime family that they will be protected ...........I am not impressed .........
bush go suck an oil well in Iraq...
May 13th, 2006 at 12:01 pmWell, you know how they believe that they make their own reality? How a good press release makes something true?
Looks like they might get a chance to find out just how real that "reality" REALLY is.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:03 pmThat article's the biggest ballwashing of Hayden I've seen yet. Unbelievable.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:10 pmHere's my debunking of this moronic waste of timber.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:16 pmLJ Lovel
On another site (one all about trying to be a hero, though it has largely worked out to being a roleplaying site) I currently have as my sig: Bush sucks Osama Bin Laden.
I have felt that flooding the bastards might just be the best defence for a long while.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:18 pmI filed a criminal complaint with the FCC via their web site.
I also sent a request to Verizon's Irving Texas records department which must provide details of all such information sent to third parties according to California law.
Finally I sent a complaint to Verizon asking them to confirm that they unlawfully divulged my private information to the Bush regime.
Oh: I also wrote to the ACLU of Southern California asking about whether I can compell Vertizon to provide evidence of their crimes, and I see that two American patriots have already launched a 9 billion dollar lawsuit against Verizon for their massive felony.
The FCC should be flooded with criminal complaints.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:23 pmThinkProgress's criticism of Falkenrath is too mild. He shows a level of ignorance and incompetence that is scary for people holding such senior posts in this Administration.
My critique of his op-ed is not nearly as mild. He deserves nothing less for the moronic op-ed he wrote.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:23 pmLooks like Verizon is going to be in the same boat with AT&T
Verizon lawsuits
I have Verizon service, but I'm cancelling it immediately.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:30 pm“The dolts at F.B.I. headquarters could not get it together to search Zacarias Moussaoui's computer before 9/11, but now we have the F.B.I. searching the C.I.A.â€
Let’s get Dowd-y behind the firewall, shall we?
May 13th, 2006 at 12:30 pmThe propaganda machine has had a head start on all of us, working behind the scenes and under rocks. Time for us all to catch up. Ghani's tool for passive resistance = spinning wheel. American's tool for passiver resistance = sue in droves
May 13th, 2006 at 12:30 pmThe polls say 65% of americans support the NSA wiretapping, I don't know where they found 65%, maybe in Cinncinatti or Galveston Texas, but if that many americans are accepting of their illegal wiretapping, then we are in serious trouble, those people are clueless and/or brain dead from watching GOP State TV (FOX) for 5 years.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:34 pmBush is a porch monkey for big oil and big corporations.
Speaking of "anonymizing" (is that even a word?!?), here is my suggestion for truly anonymizing the phone records. Perhaps the NSA should have gone this route before violating the law. But, then again this Administration is a bunch of go-getters, not timid like the rest of us.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:34 pmCheney Pushed U.S. to Widen Eavesdropping
In the weeks after the Sept. 11 attacks, Vice President Dick Cheney and his top legal adviser argued that the National Security Agency should intercept purely domestic telephone calls and e-mail messages without warrants in the hunt for terrorists, according to two senior intelligence officials.
The official said General Hayden appeared particularly concerned about ensuring that one end of each conversation was outside the United States. But critics of the program say the law does not allow spying on a caller in the United States without a warrant, period — no matter whether the call is domestic or international. "Both would violate FISA," said Nancy Libin, staff counsel at the Center for Democracy and Technology, a civil liberties group.
Ms. Libin said limiting the warrantless intercepts to international calls "may have been a political calculation, because it sounds more reassuring." Despite the legal technicalities, for employees of the N.S.A., whose mission is foreign intelligence, avoiding purely domestic appears to have been crucial.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/05/14/washington/14nsa.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
May 13th, 2006 at 12:39 pmVerizon gives a whole new meaning to "Do you hear me now?" .
May 13th, 2006 at 12:40 pmDamn! Those Bushcovites are good. You don't even need a search warrant, or court order. All you have to do is ask for them. Therefore, no law is broken.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:43 pmI just wonder if the revelation about the financial institutions handing over all of our records is about to break? After gaining access to your medical records, they'll even get to know if you're a perfect asshole after checking you colonoscopy results.
How about suing these jerks that lie and support illegal activities. Sue president [sic] Bush for ordering it.
Bankruppert these guys with law suits. Get George Bush in civil court and fry his ass.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:47 pmWhy pass laws when it's so much easier to make them up on the fly while you're talking shit?
Nothing means what it means anyway, unless it needs to for today's spin.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:49 pm"Gimme all your money now!" I say at gunpoint
...and when you give me all your money, I am not guilty because I the act of giving the money was done "voluntarily".
May 13th, 2006 at 12:51 pmI'm sorry, but your post is seriously messed up. ECPA and the Stored Communications Act are completely different laws!
ECPA: 18 USC 2510 et seq
SCA: 18 USC 2701 et seq
Note, this doesn't mean the telcos didn't break any laws, or that Falkenrath is right. Just that you should fix the post.
May 13th, 2006 at 12:55 pmI wonder what the Law says about Business and Corporate risks to the Telco Giants?
As an IT person, the T1 cable worked the internet as well as the phone system [Avaya/Lucent] SO not only did the Phone Records of Individuals get turned over to them, ALSO its HIGHLY likely that Internet records were also likely turned over, of course company emails and Internet Presentations as well. Many Corporate secrets float around in these presentations,,,Spread Sheets, Financial Data...Etc.. RIGHT up to the CEOS Office
The Talking Point
"If you have nothing to hide, then you have nothing to worry about" has just gone crashing flying thru the window and into the dumpster.
~~~~~
on a Historical note, I remember when Earthlink refused to put the Carnivore [no longer used] system on its lines.
~~~~~~
[[Tangent]]
One of the nation's largest Internet-service providers, EarthLink Inc., has refused to install a new Federal Bureau of Investigation electronic surveillance device on its network, saying technical adjustments required to use the device caused disruptions for customers.
The FBI has used Carnivore, as the surveillance device is called, in a number of criminal investigations. But EarthLink is the first ISP to offer a public account of an actual experience with Carnivore. The FBI has claimed that Carnivore won't interfere with an ISP's operations.
"It has the potential to hurt our network, to bring pieces of it down," Steve Dougherty, EarthLink's director of technology acquisition, said of Carnivore. "It could impact thousands of people."
While EarthLink (elnk) executives said they would continue to work with authorities in criminal investigations, they vowed not to allow the FBI to install Carnivore on the company's network. The company also has substantial privacy concerns.
EarthLink has already voiced its concerns in court. The ISP is the plaintiff in a legal fight launched against Carnivore earlier this year with the help of attorney Robert Corn-Revere, according to people close to the case. Previously, the identity of the plaintiff in the case, which is under seal, wasn't known. A federal magistrate ruled against EarthLink in the case early this year, forcing it to give the FBI access to its system. Mr. Corn-Revere declined to comment.
May 13th, 2006 at 1:06 pm~~~~
Hey Steve, Any comments, or ideas, on how the Patriot act might affect this?
Read Greg Palast piece on this. "The Spies Who Shag US" May 12 2006
May 13th, 2006 at 1:08 pmIt's a good thing for Thomas Jefferson that he is dead. This surely would have killed him otherwise...
The arguments from te far right do not make any sense. The Founding Fathers established a government that was for the people. They wouldn't have then put in place the ability for any part of teh government to violate those protections. More fallacy based in fear.
The far right then claims we have the strongest military in the world. But apparently we should all be terrified of a handful of psychotic lunatics. If our military i steh most powerful, then we shouldn't be afraid of anything. Ludicrious argument to suggest the most powerful should feel like the most vulnerable. These people are insane if they think everyone buys their fallacious logic.
I re-iterate - until the fear of 'what if' is eclipsed by teh pain of 'what is', this is just going to get worse and worse. No matter how the few of us who understand and act are doing what we can to stop teh destruction of our civil liberties.
May 13th, 2006 at 1:09 pmThey are both under Title 18 of the US code--one is in chapeter 119 and the other is under chapter 121. What is your point?
May 13th, 2006 at 1:09 pmhttp://www.epic.org/privacy/iei/
What You Can Do?
*Is your account in your name? Remember that if someone else is paying for your phone, or gets the bill, that person may be able to view your phone records. It's best for you to start your own service in your own name. It is the case that the people most interested in seeing your phone records are people close to you--jealous spouses/significant others, employers, and if you are a kid, your parents!
May 13th, 2006 at 1:12 pm* Put a password on your account. All carriers will allow you to place a password on your account to help stop others from accessing your records. Use a password that you are apt to remember, but others are not likely to know. The name of your first pet, a street you lived on, or the name of your grade school will suffice. Do not use your date of birth, mother's maiden name, or Social Security number.
*Did you know that phone companies sell your records, including the numbers that you have dialed, to marketers? You can opt out of this information sale by telling your phone company that you want to "restrict" or "opt out" from all CPNI sharing.
*File comments with the FCC in support of greater privacy standards for your telephone data. Our petition urges the FCC to require carriers to do a better job in protecting records. You can support the cause by writing to the FCC in support of EPIC's petition and the protections you think should be in place for phone records. Just click here and put ensure "96-115" appears in the proceeding box. Remember, anything you write appears in the public record.
Only corrupt paranoid governments snoop on their own citizens, and the Bush Regime considers 70% of Americans its enemy, so data-mines the phone calls of everyone it fears!
May 13th, 2006 at 1:13 pmOrwell's "1984" did not fully explain that "Big Brother" fears everybody!
Bush&Co have a supply of lawyers who are paid to reinterpret the laws to favor Bush&Co.
May 13th, 2006 at 1:14 pmThat does not make them correct. They are the hired help, spreading the propaganda as told.
Isn't it all becoming ever more clear to even the dunderheads out there that things like this are reasons for Bush so desperately putting his judges in place. He has a campaign to stack the courts with his sycophants. He employs only sycophants - and listens to no one else. The congress has rolled over for him since the year 2000, the press has been neglectful in their job as watchdog for the public. Isn't the pattern clear now to everyone? This is a long-term carefully laid out plan; eliminate the middle class economically, surreptitiously remove their power to resist the government through spying and other sinister means, hold secret meetings, let their cronies determine policy, allow the rich to become obscenely rich at the expense of the middle class. The poor? Soon their ranks will grow as the middle class slips into the lower class.They will have no voice whatsoever.
They will be used as cheap labor for the rich and powerful.
BACKin USSA...
(AG apologies to the Beatles / Back in USSR)
Drove in from Miamied Speech, (DOA-see!)
Didn't get to bed last night
Oh, the way the paper flag was in my Tea
Man, I had a "NO-FLY" flight
I'm back in the USSA
You can't say how "lucky" you are, boy
Back in the USSA, yeah
Been away so long I hardly know the place
Gee, it's sad to be back home
Leave it till tomorrow to make my case
Honey doncha use this phone
I'm back in the USSA
You can't say how "lucky" they are, boy
Back in the US
Back in the US
Back in the USSA
Well the Ukraine polls really knocked me out
They leave the west behind
And Moscow's vote make me think about
OUR "Red"state's always on my my my my my my my my my mind
Oh, come on
Hu Hey Hu, hey, ah, yeah
yeah, yeah, yeah
I'm back in the USSA
You don't know how lucky you are, boys
Back in the USSA
Well the Ukraine Vote really clocks me out
They leave the west behind
And Moscow's rights make me wonder about
OUR Georgia's always on my my my my my my my my my mind
Oh, show me round your $now jobbed
mountin' way down south
Take me to you Daddy's $marm
Let me hear your "Bush-I-Like"-uhs ringing out
Come and keep your "Rapture" warm
I'm back in the USSA
Hey, You can't say how $ucky they are, boy
Back in the USSA
Oh, let 'em $ell you WarFair Honey...
May 13th, 2006 at 1:15 pm
Would Richard A. Falkenrath mind a little background info. Especially his address, telephone number, how many children does he have, their ages, what school they attend, their records if any exist with the local police, do they frequent bars, who are their friends, relatives, and friends of their classmates. Do they attend church, which one, how long, where, are they saved. What do their neigbors say about them, their housekeeping habits, do they hire illegal nannies, or maids, who does their lawn work. These are just a few for a start, while he explains why it is necessary for anyone to have access to these tidbits of information.
May 13th, 2006 at 1:15 pmThe poor? Soon their ranks will grow as the middle class slips into the lower class.They will have no voice whatsoever.
May 13th, 2006 at 1:29 pmThey will be used as cheap labor for the rich and powerful.
~~~~
Heres a link to the POLITYIV research charts;
http://www.cidcm.umd.edu/inscr/polity/index.htm
~~
Polity is a general term that refers to political organization of a group. en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polity
It has been reported that Bush at his last travel event had his Secret Service guards point automatic weapons at protestors as he drove past! There is NO organized al Quada terrorist network > Bush knows that, but he fears Americans who oppose him and considers them terrorists!
May 13th, 2006 at 1:33 pmTomorrow's New York Times has a story confirming that Dick Cheney was the evil hand behind this eavesdropping on the American people. Seems he's still pissed about some of the safeguards of personal privacy that were put in place after Watergate....
http://katrinamemo.blogspot.com/2006/05/no-surprise.html
May 13th, 2006 at 1:33 pmHow about petitioning all print media to have their op-eds
May 13th, 2006 at 1:35 pmfact checked before publication? This practice of just making up what
you need at the moment for your op-ed piece appears rampant. I think the
editors need to take some responsibility for what their writers
give them. Opinions are fine, but don't support them with lies.
Corrupt Politicians selling Laws favorable to corporate America are Harming democracy and the American way of life.
And to think these people are supposed to be WORKING for the People, the Salus Populi, instead they are more interested in Marxist Kapitalism, Corporate Whoring, Vacations, Self Aggrandizement, Playing Golf, and $$$$ as Tom Delay did maiking sure that people get poverty wages [Marianas]
~~~~~
WASHINGTON, D.C. (Creators Syndicate) -- Forget the freebie trips across the Atlantic and the Pacific. Forget the casinos and the allegedly illicit contributions -- they represent only degrees of avarice.
To grasp the moral bankruptcy of the public Tom DeLay, the House majority leader, you only have to know about Frank Murkowski and Saipan.
Today, Frank Murkowki is the governor of Alaska, but from 1980 to 2002, he was a conservative Republican senator from Alaska.
How conservative? His voting record earned him zero ratings from organized labor's AFL-CIO and the liberal Americans for Democratic Action, and perfect 100s from the U.S. Chamber of Commerce and the American Conservative Union.
But as chairman of the Senate Energy and Natural Resources Committee, Frank Murkowski became furious at the abusive sweatshop conditions endured by workers, overwhelmingly immigrants, in the U.S. territory of the Northern Mariana Islands, of which Saipan is the capital.
Because they were produced in a territory of the United States, garments traveled tariff-free and quota-free to the profitable U.S. market and were entitled to display the coveted "Made in the USA" label.
Among the manufacturers that had profited from the un-free labor market on the island were Tommy Hilfiger USA, Gap, Calvin Klein and Liz Claiborne.
Moved by the sworn testimony of U.S. officials and human-rights advocates that the 91 percent of the workforce who were immigrants -- from China, the Philippines, Sri Lanka and Bangladesh -- were being paid barely half the U.S. minimum hourly wage and were forced to live behind barbed wire in squalid shacks minus plumbing, work 12 hours a day, often seven days a week, without any of the legal protections U.S. workers are guaranteed, Murkowski wrote a bill to extend the protection of U.S. labor and minimum-wage laws to the workers in the U.S. territory of the Northern Marianas.
~~~~
Truly these PEOPLE are not the Defenders of Humanity they claim to be. Wars and Death are but Profits.
Our enemies...never stop thinking about new ways to harm our country and our people, and neither do we. ~George W. Bush
I can tell you this: If I’m ever in a position to call the shots, I’m not going to rush to send somebody else’s kids into a war. ~George H. W. Bush
We know that dictators are quick to choose aggression, while free nations strive to resolve differences in peace. ~George W. Bush
Evil men, obsessed with ambition and unburdened by conscience, must be taken very seriously--and we must stop them before their crimes can multiply. ~George W. Bush
Why should we hear about body bags, and deaths...I mean, it's not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that? ~Barbara Bush
May 13th, 2006 at 1:42 pmSomewhat OT...tomorrow's New York Times is reporting that Dick Cheney was the evil hand behind the program to eavesdrop on all Americans. Seems he still pissed over the safegruards of personal privacy that were put in place after Watergate...
http://katrinamemo.blogspot.com/2006/05/no-surprise.html
May 13th, 2006 at 1:43 pmThey are both under Title 18 of the US code–one is in chapeter 119 and the other is under chapter 121. What is your point?
Comment by Linda — May 13, 2006 @ 1:09 pm
My point is that Judd made a (minor) mistake and should fix it before some right-wing nutjob tries to use it to show how liberals don't know what they're talking about.
As far as I know, Judd's brief legal conclusions are correct, but anyone who claims that ECPA is known as the Stored Communications Act is (1) wrong, (2) obviously not an expert in the field, and (3) opening himself up to easy criticism from opponents.
See Kerr's post on the legal conclusions here.
May 13th, 2006 at 1:46 pmWhy should we hear about body bags, and deaths…I mean, it’s not relevant. So why should I waste my beautiful mind on something like that? ~Barbara Bush
This is the rantings of an unbalanced mind, death means nothing to her Beautiful mind? Sick. Just sick.
Thanks for the that link steve...
May 13th, 2006 at 1:49 pmI'm glad I don't do business with companies that contribute to Bubble boy.
I make sure that I never hand over my hard earned dollars to Bubble boy contributers.
Millions of Americans have made this an everyday proctice since 2001.
Don't blame me, I don't contribute to criminals. (eg. Walmart, McDonalds, AT&T, AOL)
May 13th, 2006 at 1:50 pmThe post is accurate. The stored communications act is a subset of the electronic privacy communications act. The various provisions are distributed in different places in the code once the act becomes law.
May 13th, 2006 at 2:38 pmDoh! Sorry Judd, you are right. I apologize if I caused any confusion. Time to go review ECPA before I make any other comments...
May 13th, 2006 at 3:10 pmGood lets bankruprt the phone companies. You get the hollow log, I'll tie 2 cans together with string. Just what we need, living in the stone age. Guaranteed no lawsuit will prevail. Keep dreaming, next to oil this country needs telecommunications even more. At the end of all this, No lawsuits, No indictments. No impeachment. And your phone records will keep going to anyone and eveyone who wants to pay for them. NOTHING is more powerful in this world than the phone companies. Big oil dreams of being that powerful and having that much influence over everyday life.
May 13th, 2006 at 3:50 pmThe phone police, they live inside of my head.
The phone police, they come to me in my bed.
The phone police, they’re coming to arrest me, oh no.
You know that talk is cheap, and those rumors ain’t nice.
And when I fall asleep I don’t think I’ll survive the night, the night.
’cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.
The phone police, they live inside of my head.
(live inside of my head.)
The phone police, they come to me in my bed.
(come to me in my bed.)
The phone police, they’re coming to arrest me, oh no.
Well, I can’t tell lies, ’cause they’re listening to me.
And when I fall asleep, bet they’re spying on me tonight, tonight.
’cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.
I try to sleep, they’re wide awake, they won’t leave me alone.
They don’t get paid to take vacations, or let me alone.
They spy on me, I try to hide, they won’t let me alone.
They persecute me, they’re the judge and jury all in one.
’cause they’re waiting for me.
They’re looking for me.
Ev’ry single night they’re driving me insane.
Those men inside my brain.
The phone police, they live inside of my head.
May 13th, 2006 at 4:02 pmThe phone police, they come to me in my bed.
The phone police, they’re coming to arrest me thank you Cheap Trick
I have a question....
Let's say the telcos are liable...Let's say they *do* end up having to be close to 10 Billion dollars in penalties....who exactly gets this money?
The Government?
seems like the government that's supposed to be representing our best interests is kinda winning no matter what in a case where they were obscenely wrong.
So let's move on....10 Billion dollars....do you really think they'll just suck it up and say whatever?
or more realistically, we are now stuck paying double or more for telephone because the Government got away with ilegally taking information when there were legal ways to go about it.
So then this government we have elected, as it were, is sitting with even more of our money to spend on their war, that they've already stated will last at least another 3-4 years.
but at least this is the greatest country on Earth, right? O_o
May 13th, 2006 at 4:51 pmHEY LOOK AT SECTION 2712, THE UNITED STATES IS LIABLE FOR VIOLATIONS TOO. 2712 ALSO AUTHORIZES SUITS FOR FISA VIOLATIONS AS A TACK-ON TO THE STORED COMMUNICATIONS ACT!!!
May 13th, 2006 at 5:02 pmCNNs David Ensor commented yesterday, evidently following the administrations line, that all the government sought was your telepone data showing the date called, the number called, and the duration of the call. They sought nothing else.
WRONGO DAVID. I have a source who is a Special Agent for ATT&T, they have thousands of them, whom I contacted. I asked him if the NSA was also seeking the data on the called party. His answer was yes. They have been busy as hell checking out every number called on your phone bill, and all other phone bills they have gathered.
So, the NSA has your phone bill which merely shows the date and time and telephone number, plus the duration of the call, and nothing more. But they are mining the information all numbers called also. This gives them the name and address of that person.
This is pretty heavy stuff folks.
May 13th, 2006 at 5:03 pmJudd,
I remember the original story link that TP referred to mentioned 1k per violation but also noted that it was unclear if the max fine was 1.25mil. There does seem to be some ambiguity over the exact liability, but not that they are liable, ie, they are.
It would depend on how the FCC (I believe the wire story TP linked to said they were the 'deciders' to borrow from Bush) interprets and assesses those penalties. I would imagine they would cap it at 1.25mil as they are Bush appointees mostly.
Of course, we can sue the government or individuals (Hayden comes to mind...scary that he's going to get confirmed) but it's doubtful that would progress to trial simply because of the 'national security implications' - something they'd bring up.
The whole thing is unfair, but in the end it is *PEOPLE* that should be held *RESPONSIBLE*. That goes all the way up to Bush, despite his 'CEO' style (he'd be leading a withering, lossmaking firm if he was in the private sector and if it was listed he'd have been sacked).
Financial penalties are nice, but that's not the real issue except to pressure Telcos. The real issue is getting some accountability.
Oh, *Judd* I've been busy but perhaps you should look at the annual reports for the companies or call their investor relations departments. Their classified contracts are generally publically announced to shareholders albeit only the value of the contract (this is actually what got Qwest's CEO in trouble with regard to insider trading - hmm around the time he was refusing to cooperate with the govt....) - because of the contract being awarded.
Look for the amounts pre-01 and post-01. You can extrapolate (you would need to take into account mergers) how much of an increase they have been given. (and how much Qwest has lost). Part of the gain will be attributable to the program in question, probably on the order of 20-30 percent - the rest would be allowing the govt to tap into their networks at the central stations.
On another note, you CANNOT form CONCLUSIONS about telephone records without OTHER DATABASES. Relational statistics REQUIRES something to compare that to or the results would be meaningless (look at SAS or SPSS's software for example which is used for datamining and they both have classified contracts). You MUST have things like BUYING HABITS, TRAVEL HABITS, etc to make 'sense' of this stuff.
It's likely the NSA is buying more than just telephone records - it's likely they're buying credit reports, etc to be able to perform relationships. Otherwise the program would be senseless.
If people realized that their telephone records were being compared to their transaction records I think there would be more of an outcry.
May 13th, 2006 at 5:09 pmROVE WAS INDICTED YESTERDAY..........
May 13th, 2006 at 5:22 pmhttp://www.truthout.org/docs_2006/051306W.shtml
i just sent the wp a letter and asked them why they decided to print a letter by someone without a law degree, without any understanding of the programme, opining on the legality of the programme.
this guy is just another bush hack... he has a ph.d. in military history, but, has never set foot in a law school.
odd, that cnn and wp would trot this prick around as if he knew what he was talking about. it is simply amazing!!!
May 13th, 2006 at 5:56 pm[...] Then on a talk radio program that night I heard the host refer to a post at thinkprogress.org, you can see all about that Here. [...]
May 13th, 2006 at 6:14 pmI spoke with a Verizon agent about 5 minutes ago and voiced my concerns (politely I might add), and she claims that the wire tapping and data collection was only on land-line connections and does not effect the wireless service.
Did they just lie to me?
May 13th, 2006 at 7:21 pmerrr. tp, i get spam alerted and people who just post lyrics are okedokee?
May 13th, 2006 at 9:02 pmBush will claim "state secrets" and try to get the AT&T lawsuits dismissed under the guise of "national security". His poll numbers are 29% and dropping. As bad as Nixon was, this "president" has done far more damage. Too, our environment, image abroad, and sense of who we are. We must realize that we are turning into a Fascist state. The "leader" talks and everyone obeys. We remain mired in an illegal and immoral war. Corporations and ultra wealthy get tax breaks and the people who need it get nothing, just like our seniors who must now have co-pays under Bush's Madicare scheme. Privatize social security? Can you imagine? Roosevelt would be turning in his grave. Those Republicans piss me off. It's time to impeach. Become a DISSENTER.
May 13th, 2006 at 10:17 pmVerizon admits they're committing treason and felonies!
Date: Sat, 13 May 2006 18:45:20 -0400 (EDT)
From: ecenter@verizon.com
Subject: RE:Verizon.com Consumer email response
Dear F. Rice,
Thank you for contacting the Verizon eCenter. My name is Valerie, and I will be handling your request today.
This message is in response to your email dated May 12, 2006. You inquired about the NSA news article. I will be happy to assist you.
We appreciate that the USA Today article and other reports about the possibility that the NSA is able to analyze local call data records is causing concern. Please be assured that Verizon places the highest value on protecting the privacy of our customers.
Anything to do with the NSA is of course highly classified, so we can not comment on whether or not the news article causing concern is even accurate. But we can say that, to the extent that we cooperate with government authorities, we are confident that we are complying with all applicable statutes. We appreciate the continuing opportunity to provide you with service.
Thank you for using Verizon. We appreciate your business.
Sincerely,
May 13th, 2006 at 11:30 pmValerie
Verizon eCenter
Lol post 59 > that letter from Verizon is plain putrid! Everyone who does business with them is being screwed over! I wish everyone would cancel their service with them, but many Americans do not even watch or read the news, so they have NO idea their calls are being data-mined and/or wiretapped!
May 14th, 2006 at 1:32 am[...] I’m not a lawyer, so I can’t weigh in on this legal interpretation. But Rich isn’t a lawyer either, and other people with legal backgrounds think that this interpretation of the law is inaccurate. [...]
May 14th, 2006 at 7:48 amlickspittle: "Bush will claim “state secrets†and try to get the AT&T lawsuits dismissed under the guise of “national securityâ€.
May 14th, 2006 at 8:47 amIt has already been filed. The assertions is "state secrets" and/or "military secrets". See this PDF of First Statement of Interest of the United States
Time to take on the Military Corporate Complex and its Liar'nThief of our rights and freedom!
May 14th, 2006 at 1:47 pmHang the first lawyer that brings suit. Case closed.
May 14th, 2006 at 3:03 pmJust as an FYI to commenter #23 (steve): The Stored Communications Act was part of the Electronic Communications Privacy Act of 1986. (section 200 of the Act).
May 14th, 2006 at 4:59 pmHang the first lawyer that brings suit. Case closed.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — May 14, 2006 @ 3:03 pm
I thought you were Pro-Life?
May 15th, 2006 at 8:08 amHang the first lawyer that brings suit. Case closed.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — May 14, 2006 @ 3:03 pm
I thought you were Pro-Life?
Comment by unbelievable —
I am. Hanging a few crooked left wing lawyers would save millions of lives and billions of dollars. The death penalty is a good thing and those two positions are not in the least incompatable.
May 15th, 2006 at 8:40 amHanging a few crooked left wing lawyers would save millions of lives and billions of dollars.
Comment by I-RIGHT-I — May 15, 2006 @ 8:40 am
We're talking about hanging people over phone calls... Just seemed a bit extreme to hang people over it.
May 15th, 2006 at 10:10 am[...] As I’ve noted before, they’re almost certainly building/modeling our social networks to define who we know and who we are connected to. They can use this information to reconstruct eerily complete profiles of every one of us. They can build incredibly detailed dossiers on each of us simply by “mashing up” different databases. A poster named “James” at ThinkProgress had this observation: On another note, you CANNOT form CONCLUSIONS about telephone records without OTHER DATABASES. Relational statistics REQUIRES something to compare that to or the results would be meaningless (look at SAS or SPSS’s software for example which is used for datamining and they both have classified contracts). You MUST have things like BUYING HABITS, TRAVEL HABITS, etc to make ’sense’ of this stuff. [...]
May 16th, 2006 at 8:42 am