Memorandum To Tony Snow On The Use Of The Term ‘Tar Baby’
Memorandum To Tony Snow On The Use Of The Term ‘Tar Baby’
Date: May 16, 2006
To: White House Press Secretary Tony Snow
From: ThinkProgress.org
Re: The use of the term “tar baby”
————————————————————————————————
Today in your first press briefing you referred to the term “tar baby” on two occasions:
SNOW: Having said that, I don’t want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program, the alleged program, the existence of which I can neither confirm nor deny.
….
QUESTION: What are your personal goals? What do you hope to achieve here? Will you continue to televise these briefings? And would you put into English the phrase (OFF-MIKE) the tarbaby?
SNOW: Well, I believe hug the tarbaby, we could trace that back to American lore.
Based on the context of the term, we believe you meant tar baby to mean: “a situation almost impossible to get out of; a problem virtually unsolvable.”
But in “American lore,†the expression tar baby is also a racial slur “used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people.” Use of the term has resulted in demands that people be fired.
As Random House notes, “some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.” Now that you are no longer at Fox News, you may want to take them up on their advice.
UPDATE: Check out Crooks and Liars to watch the video of Snow’s comments.
UPDATE: A previous version of this post incorrectly stated that the articles above described people being fired for using the term “tar baby.” The articles described demands that people be fired. We regret the error.
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Wow.
May 16th, 2006 at 3:38 pm“I don’t want to hug the tar baby”
Giving this administrations penchant for giving nicknames, could this be the nickname for Jeff Gannon’s Butthole?
May 16th, 2006 at 3:39 pmthis is nuts…its 2006, not 1956, what the hell is going on…lets see tony walking around dc using the term as loosely as he is buried in the wh
May 16th, 2006 at 3:40 pmwill anybody stand up to this gross negligence, or will it just be the foaming left that is making a mountain out of a molehill again, and again and again
May 16th, 2006 at 3:41 pm[...] New White Hosue Press Secretary (and former Fox News pundidiot) used the phrase “tar baby” in his first press briefing yesterday. Makes you wonder what other racial slurs the new press secretary might use in the future. Inadvertantly, I’m sure. [...]
May 16th, 2006 at 3:42 pmGee Snow Job, just what exactly is your opinion of an openly multi-ethnic society?
May 16th, 2006 at 3:42 pmJust the kind of enlightening diatribe you’ve come to expect from the Reichwing of the neocon (bowel) movement. Set the bar a little lower than you normally would for this cult, and Snowjob will never disappoint you. I won’t feel sorry for this clown…he knew damn well what he was getting into. Tony Goebbel head dick of the propaganda ministry.
May 16th, 2006 at 3:42 pmWhat Mr Snow meant to say was he “didn’t want chase that Sambo.”
May 16th, 2006 at 3:42 pmI’ve long felt that we really need another metaphor for the concept, because it’s a useful one.
The nearest I’ve found is “Chinese finger trap,” which isn’t quite the same thing, and which also sounds culturally insensitive.
Quicksand? Not quite …
May 16th, 2006 at 3:44 pmThe term also means “you become attached to that which you attack.”
It’s called (with thanks to R.A. Wilson),”the Tarbaby principle.”
May 16th, 2006 at 3:45 pmWell that didnt take long…
and since Tony believes Racism is dead…..
I guess African Americans will not be upset by the incredibly non-sensical use of this term…..
to that I say “That cracker is crazeeeeeeeeeeeee”
May 16th, 2006 at 3:45 pmAnother ignorant racist employed at the White House. No shock there.
May 16th, 2006 at 3:45 pm#9 John~
May 16th, 2006 at 3:46 pmTry slipperyslope…it seems to be in vogue/stylish and above all, politically correct. No?
Let us not be so distracted by the dancing (apparently racist) puppet.
Every screw up he makes is another distraction from the evil bastards behind the curtain.
May 16th, 2006 at 3:48 pmSnow’s slur was just par for the course when it comes to the Bush outreach effort to African-Americans.
Recall Bush from January 2005 trying to sell Social Security privatization to a town hall meeting of African-American guests:
“Another interesting idea…is a personal savings account…which can’t be used to bet on the lottery, or a dice game, or the track.”
“Secondly, the interesting — there’s a — African American males die sooner than other males do, which means the system is inherently unfair to a certain group of people.”
May 16th, 2006 at 3:50 pmMr Snow then added defensively that if Truthout was objecting to his remarks “he would be more niggardly with his comments in the future.”
May 16th, 2006 at 3:50 pmTony Snow to ThinkProgress: Get your Cotton Picking hands off me!
May 16th, 2006 at 3:50 pm13 – Nah, not even close. A “slippery slope” is passive, where the above metaphor is from a story in which the character’s active struggle to get free was what got him in deeper.
Maybe I should just re-write the story with the “baby” made from some other sticky thing, and publish that. Then I’ll make money and we’ll have a new metaphor.
May 16th, 2006 at 3:50 pmWhat was going through Snow’s mind at the time was…
“Wow, I almost came close to saying ‘we don’t want to lynch the n****r before we test the sturdiness of the branch.’ WHEW! I really could’ve said something WRONG! Snow-man 1, liberal media zero, heh heh heh…”
May 16th, 2006 at 3:51 pmI think his new nickname should be “Snowflake”.
May 16th, 2006 at 3:51 pmThe only way I understand “tar baby” to mean is as a racial slur.
May 16th, 2006 at 3:51 pmHow can anyone else not?
The only explanation for this is:
A. To distract the media from himself and the President (who’s Immigration policy and poll numbers are in the tank) or
B. To get fired…
Really no one could be that stupid…to not only say it once but twice and and then qualify it with the American folklore reference…….
May 16th, 2006 at 3:52 pmSnow is not playing with a full deck:
:p
May 16th, 2006 at 3:57 pm[Comment deleted by admin.]
May 16th, 2006 at 3:58 pmHaving failed totally at having a press secretary who could convince the white house press corps of anything at all (with the added help of a planted “gooser” in the gallery);
May 16th, 2006 at 3:59 pmthe current administration will turn presidential press briefings into a daily stand up routine.
Throwing out controversial and banal utterances which are sure to arouse and offend, thereby distracting again from the ongoing criminal behavior and policies.
Tony Snow is a running gag, he knows it, his bosses know it, and he is perfect to play the front man as the white house press briefings are eventually dismissed as simply bad daytime TV
Sorry, I messed up that link. Again, Snow is not playing with a full deck
http://www.chickenhawkcards.com/5-diamonds.jpg
May 16th, 2006 at 3:59 pmThats Mr Tar Baby to you, Snowflake.
May 16th, 2006 at 3:59 pmOh, this early and he’s already demonstrating a lack of sensitivity. It’s gonna get good, folks.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:01 pmThe above thread states “a situation almost impossible to get out of”, and states this was the context used. Seems to me when someone HEARS a term that has both a legitimate meaning and a derogatory one, and you immediately reference the derogatory. You are the one with the racist thinking more so than the actual speaker.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:01 pmKenny- Here’s one for you: Iraq War…legitmate, or derogetory?
May 16th, 2006 at 4:04 pmOh, come on. I know the legend of the tar baby. The idea is that Brer Rabbit made a baby out of tar to trap Brer Fox, and when Brer Fox went to hug the cute baby, he was stuck in the tar pit. Crony McSnowjob was saying that to comment on reaction to the program would be inadvertently acknowledging its existence, which he is not in a position to do.
I’m no fan of this guy, but I’m not about to assign racism where it’s just a story.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:04 pm#30 Not derogatory more like obscene.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:06 pmYou are the one with the racist thinking more so than the actual speaker.
Comment by Kenny — May 16, 2006 @ 4:01 pm
He’s a journalist. It’s his job to know common interpretation of phrases. He should have known better. This isn’t about us. It’s about Snow being out of tiuch with mainstream interpretations. Tar Baby is not known by the majority of Americans as the alternative definition. I didn’t know there was one, and I’m both smart and educated. How can you expect it of society as a whole then?
May 16th, 2006 at 4:07 pmWhat a dick. And I mean that as we know it from American lore.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:09 pmEarlier I said that this was no big deal and that most of us would defend Hillary Clinton if she used this term – but the more I think about it the more I think that its use is completely indefensible.
Either Snow was ignorant of this terms other meaning or he just didn’t care… neither is acceptable for a person of his stature and position.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:10 pmJeez, he used a term that refers to a classic children’s tale. I’m as sick of this administration as anyone, but the vitriol displayed here is far more frightening.
So it does not matter what a word means anymore, just how you think it sounds … I thought that was Bush’s domain.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:10 pmThe lesson for the press secretary, as a purveyor of words should be clear however…choose your wordsw carefully. Know sensitive subjects, and avoid fanning the flames of stupidity…leave that to Chimpy.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:10 pmUN-BE-LIEVABLE!!!
May 16th, 2006 at 4:12 pmHa!
I can’t wait to hear his reply.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:12 pm31
May 16th, 2006 at 4:13 pmWhile I agree with you on where it came from, I personally would not say that type of statement and I don’t consider myself a PC person. I think the racist use of the phrase through time has given it that taint and anyone that uses it, especially someone in the public eye, should be called on it. Do I think he is a racist…don’t know. Do I think he was stupid and ignorant for saying that….yes. I am sure he will be saying things that are more stupid in the near future that will eclipse this.
I’m no fan of this guy, but I’m not about to assign racism where it’s just a story.
Comment by The Witch — May 16, 2006 @ 4:04 pm
The Witch, or may I call you “The?”
You understand the context of the usage of the term. *I* understand the context of the usage of the term. What’s at debate is not whether he used the term correctly, but whether or not he should’ve used the term at all, because even when used correctly, it bristles with racist connotations, because it’s often been used as a racial slur.
I have one nephew and many nieces, and many friends with children. When they are being silly and climbing all over the place, I’ll call them little monkeys, because they’re climbing all over the place like little monkeys.
Context.
However, I wouldn’t use the term to the children of any of my black friends, even if they were similarly climbing all over the place, because many people have used “little monkey” as a racial slur. I wouldn’t mean it as a racial slur, but so as to not open up a can of worms*, I just wouldn’t use it.
Connotation.
As seemingly innocent as Snow’s use of the phrase “tar baby” might seem to you, the fact that Snow didn’t know or didn’t care that the phrase carries some bad history with it to other people makes you wonder how much he has on the ball, or how much he truly cares about the feelings of others, which, when he is hired to pur a kinder gentlre human face on this beast that is the Bush Administraion, might be kinda important.
*My apologies to any cans of worms reading this post. I just couldn’t think of a better metaphor. Some of my best friends are unopened cans of worms, I swear.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:14 pmI’m far from HIGHLY educated and my wife would debate you if you called me smart. But heck I remember most childhood stories better than some stuff I read last month. Though I might think so, I can’t be that much smarter than most. My mind just didn’t put a slur to it when I heard it.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:14 pmBush Spokesman Tony Snow Uses “Tarbaby” Slur…
“In ‘American lore,’ the expression tar baby is also a racial slur ‘used occasionally as……
May 16th, 2006 at 4:16 pmmaybe Snow and his buddy John Gibson can go out and have more white babies……you know, sure hate to have these white supremists bloodlines diluted
May 16th, 2006 at 4:18 pm[...] As Think Progress correctly notes …in “American lore,” the expression tar baby is also a racial slur “used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people.” Use of the term has resulted in people being fired. [...]
May 16th, 2006 at 4:19 pmI’m gonna have to go with #25, Agua Fiero, makes perfect sense.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:19 pmIt’s not the first time he’s used that phrase.
http://www.jewishworldreview.com/tony/snow040599.asp
“Most congressional Republicans are guilty of appalling cynicism and silence. They figure Clinton has hugged the tar baby in the Balkans and they want to watch him writhe”
May 16th, 2006 at 4:20 pmMy mind just didn’t put a slur to it when I heard it.
Comment by Kenny — May 16, 2006 @ 4:14 pm
The what did your mind put to it then? That he meant the alternative definition? Sorry, not buying it.
Tar Baby is a derogatory term, along with Brier Rabbit and Uncle Tom. Does that context clarify it a little bit better for you?
If not, go into a group of black people and use it. See how well that goes over. Are any of you neocons capable of thinking outside your egocentric little universe?
May 16th, 2006 at 4:22 pmWell, I looked it up in several places today, because I have only heard tar-baby as a derogatory term for African-American, so my jaw dropped when I heard him say that today. Apparently, the original meaning is a sticky situation (it was included in the old Uncle Remus stories) but that meaning is obscure today. Snow has had two press meetings – each one has been controversial.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:22 pmPerhaps he must re-train himself that what he could say on Fox is NOT what he can say on national TV as a spokesman for the White House.
Remember when in 1999, someone was fired because he used the perfectly legitimate word “niggardly” in proper context, but the guy was fired?
No one uses the word “niggardly” in politics any more, no matter what degree of stinginess or miserly is intended. Snow should take a lesson.
You are all falling victim to “truthiness”. It does not matter that he wasn’t being racist. In your gut, you just know there was something wrong with it.
Cmon’ people, you are smarter than this. There is a lot to take these folks to task for, let us focus on the serious issues(diebold, nsa, frigging war).
May 16th, 2006 at 4:22 pmWhen I was little we always lived in diverse neighborhoods because my father was in the Navy. My grandfather would come visit us, and he would call my black friends “tar babies.” I didn’t know any version of any definition of “tar baby,” but I knew what he meant, and he wasn’t being a kindly old grandpa. He was an old racist cracker who thought he was being clever.
Tony Snow is in a position of public responsibility and he may be a flake, but he’s not an idiot, he needs to change his little speech pattern.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:22 pmOh, Kenny, get a life. If a word has two meanings, one offensive, you’re an idiot if you use it at all in the first place.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:22 pm#50 – Yeah — what dBryant said.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:24 pm“Another interesting idea…is a personal savings account…which can’t be used to bet on the lottery, or a dice game, or the track.â€
“Secondly, the interesting — there’s a — African American males die sooner than other males do, which means the system is inherently unfair to a certain group of people.â€
May 16th, 2006 at 4:25 pmComment by AvengingAngel
Also recall the thoughtful words of Babs Bush as she commented on the victims of Katrina having it better in the superdome than at home.
Also, Tony Snow is from my hometown of Cincinnati, OH. We are known for a lot of things, but our forward thinking on issues of race is not one of them. If you lived here you would not be at all surprised that he said that.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:26 pmSometimes these fools slip up and let their true colors come out, just like Bill (if you abort all black babies it will lower the crime rate) Bennett did.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:28 pmSnow’s comment appears to refer to Joel Chandler Harris’s Uncle Remus Stories, specifically “The Wonderful Tar-Baby.” Perhaps we should not be too quick to decry his comment as being racist when a non-racist connotation fits his statement more closely.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:29 pmI didn’t even know tar baby meant impossible solution, I only knew the alternative, bad meaning, must be a generational thing.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:29 pmTony Snow needs a new metaphor…
Today in his first press briefing, Tony Snow used the term “tar baby” twice. We are pretty sure he meant it as a term for “a sticky situation”, and not as a racial slur, but still. . . not the……
May 16th, 2006 at 4:30 pm#58 – That’s because you’re such a sweet innocent. ;)
May 16th, 2006 at 4:32 pmI didn’t even know tar baby meant impossible solution, I only knew the alternative, bad meaning, must be a generational thing.
Comment by squegeeboo — May 16, 2006 @ 4:29 pm
Yeah, every generation currently alive…
From the lips of a conservative. Appreciate your honesty. :)
May 16th, 2006 at 4:33 pm“The idea is that Osama Brer Rabbit made a baby out of tar to trap Brer W Fox, and when Brer W Fox went to hug the cute PNAC baby, he was stuck in the tar pit.”
Mission ‘complished, y’all.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:33 pm#41 slappymagoo – Very very well put!!!
Whether through ignorance or insensitivity – this is unacceptable phrasing for the National Press Secretary.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:34 pm#41: I guess I wouldn’t be a very good Press Secretary, then. thanks for not blowing your stack at me for seeming to defend Crony McSnowjob.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:34 pm“I didn’t even know tar baby meant impossible solution,”
No, it refers to a trap.
It’s also a clear racist term. The new press secretary is YET ANOTHER CHILD of Strom Thurman.
That it is a trap using oil is just the beauty part.
His new nickname really ought to be Snow White.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:37 pmThis kerfuffle over a child’s story
May 16th, 2006 at 4:46 pmreference is as ricidulous as
the fiasco a few years ago in
DC when that guy used the word
“niggardly” and everyone screamed
racism so loud he got fired, despite
the fact that the words origins have
nothing to do with race whatsoever.
Spongebob, I too only knew the phrase as a derogatory one. It is amazing what one learns from these threads.
I have no idea what this idiot meant by what he said, however, many people have been fired for these types of SNAFUs. Weren’t there a couple of famous sports commentators who were fired for saying idiotic things such as this…..also, at least from what they said, not meant to be racist?
May 16th, 2006 at 4:46 pm“Tar Baby” is a term to be used by black people and sociologists only.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:48 pmI hope Snow gets cancer again and dies a painful death.
“From the lips of a conservative. Appreciate your honesty. :)”
Occasionaly the truth slips thru, but I do what I can to suppress it.
“That’s because you’re such a sweet innocent. ;)”
May 16th, 2006 at 4:49 pmYup, I’m pretty sure that describes me, one day I even plan on leaving the house.
#66 – Throw another fag on the fire, eh? Who gives a shit about innocent origins of words? /sarcasm off
May 16th, 2006 at 4:50 pmCan someone explain how tar baby became a racist term?
May 16th, 2006 at 4:50 pmI really don’t get it. I’ve only ever heard the term used to refer to getting trapped.
Seriously. How is it racist?
“Snow Baby” – a two faced honkey lipped cracker ass cracker
May 16th, 2006 at 4:50 pmThis kerfuffle over a child’s story
reference is as ricidulous as
the fiasco a few years ago in
DC when that guy used the word
“niggardly†and everyone screamed
racism so loud he got fired, despite
the fact that the words origins have
nothing to do with race whatsoever.
Comment by Dave Rywall
Dave,
May 16th, 2006 at 4:51 pmAchildren’s story you *no longer see*!
There’s a reason: the whole tale was racist!
Like I said on the other thread, that’s why you will NEVER EVER see Song of the South released from Disney. It’s racist!
#69 – Yup, I’m pretty sure that describes me, one day I even plan on leaving the house.
Comment by squegeeboo
Make sure you ask your Mom first, and look both ways before you cross the street. ;)
May 16th, 2006 at 4:52 pmI’m no fan of this guy, but I’m not about to assign racism where it’s just a story.
I’m with The Witch on this one… crying racism when there really is no proof only hurts the cause of those who are fighting real racism.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:52 pm#75 – My position is that this is not about intent, it’s about perception.
May 16th, 2006 at 4:57 pm“Snow Baby†– a two faced honkey lipped cracker ass cracker
Comment by G.W.SuperChrist — May 16, 2006 @ 4:50 pm
Minorities really need to come up with better slurs for rich white boys. Cracker just doesn’t accomplish anything.
I think the Bush Admin might be in the process of creating a few for future use…
May 16th, 2006 at 4:57 pmSnow uses the term here to discuss Clinton’s attempt to use military force in Bosnia and Congress’s need to make sure he declares a “precise military strategy” and “exit strategy” before they should agree to such a plan. Remember the old days, when conservatives criticized presidents who didn’t follow precise military strategies! Seems so long ago…
May 16th, 2006 at 5:00 pm“The expression tar baby is also used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people (in the U.S. it refers to African-Americans; in New Zealand it refers to Maoris), or among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person. As a result, some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.”
http://www.randomhouse.com/wotd/index.pperl?date=19990212
May 16th, 2006 at 5:00 pmIn referring to a thorny question regarding President Bush’s illegal NSA domestic spying programs as a “tar baby,” Tony Snow is just the latest conservative to show why the Republican outreach effort to African-Americans seems doomed to fail. He joins a long list including Ken Mehlman, Senators George Allen, Trent Lott and Jim Demint, Governors Matt Blunt and Haley Barbour, Fox News’ own John Gibson, and of course, President Bush.
For the details, see:
May 16th, 2006 at 5:00 pm“Snow White.”
B’rer Tony and the Tar-Baby…
I heard Tony Snow mention the term “tar-baby” in his recent press conference… I suspect that Tony Snow’s use of the term may upset some people…The controversy has begun!…
May 16th, 2006 at 5:03 pmIt really does not make much difference what the press secretaries say. They are not there to say anything, just to furnish an illusion that the WH is communicating. Has anyone ever learned anything transmitted by the WH Press?
May 16th, 2006 at 5:03 pmThe only thing that really speaks is what they do not talk about.
Now, I’m just as “anybody but Bush” and “Vote the crooks out” as the next left-of-center blue-stater, but all this over “tarbaby” is stupid.
It should be abundantly clear that he was referring to “tar baby” as a metaphor from American folklore.
Everyone ranting about racism needs to reexamine whether they’ve replaced their brain with a knee that jerks.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:04 pmI know you won’t believe it but, I’m from Detroit and I never heard it as racial slur. I remember the story quite well. I have heard several “interesting” Racial Slurs but not that one. In my last 6 years here in NY I haven’t heard it either.
Perhaps it’s more common out West or I just don’t know the people that would use it that way?
May 16th, 2006 at 5:05 pmThat’s Mr. Snow Flake to YOU, Mr. Tar Baby.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:05 pmP.S.: I have *never* heard of tar-baby being used in a derogatory context before. Always as a fable. (It’s literally a baby-figure made of tar, people. Simple.)
May 16th, 2006 at 5:06 pmWell, I guess if Americans have twisted the term into something into something it was never meant to be, then I guess it’s now off limits and nobody should ever use it again. As people have already pointed out a couple of times here already, it’s about perception.
But once again, like the N word, the irony abounds.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:07 pmAt any rate, I think raising a ruckus over this would be immensely counterproductive and would only hurt efforts to hold the Administration responsible for things which are actually important.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:09 pmHis comments are unacceptable. I just also loved watching him flounder at the serious questions being asked. Not the same as in your studio huh Tony?
May 16th, 2006 at 5:10 pmHe knows better…that’s his way of thumbing his nose at all his critics. Just like everyone else in that Adminaistration. He knows that he can push the limit and cross the line, Because BuchCo is above the law!
May 16th, 2006 at 5:11 pmPerhaps it’s more common out West or I just don’t know the people that would use it that way?
Comment by Tundra — May 16, 2006 @ 5:05 pm
Think about where slavery flourished, where cotton was picked, and where the Georgia State flag was revised over a bitter battle to remove the Confederate Flag from it, where Uncle Remus lived, etc….
Song of the ______________
:)
May 16th, 2006 at 5:12 pmIt’s a little early to call Snow a racist based on that one reference. But let’s keep the antennae up – I bet there’ll be more where that came from.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:13 pmA story from Saturday Night Live via Wikipedia:
[...] one point the writers were going to have (Garrett Morris) do a fake ad for “Tar Baby” toothpaste, which would make blacks’ teeth stop glowing in the dark — only when black crew members walked off the set in protest did SNL producer Lorne Michaels drop the idea).
Also from SNL … the famous Richard Pryor/Chevy Chase “job interview” sketch included “Tarbaby” as a slur:
May 16th, 2006 at 5:14 pm
The same people who want to make burning the flag illegal, are in here telling is that this is a non-issue. Figures.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:15 pmHmm … my link to the SNL transcript didn’t post in #94.
Here it is.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:16 pm#91 Song of the ___
May 16th, 2006 at 5:16 pmis it manitees? Song of the Manitees right? Beluga Whales?
So I’m looking up the word “niggardly” when who shows up but Tony Snow.
The Straight Dope
http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/mniggard.html
Anyone else think this “Tar Baby” thingy might be deliberate?
May 16th, 2006 at 5:16 pmI remember when a college professor was forced to resign because he used the word “niggardly”, which isn’t even a slur.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:19 pmis it manitees? Song of the Manitees right? Beluga Whales?
Comment by squegeeboo — May 16, 2006 @ 5:16 pm
How did you graduate high school thinking manitees and whales are a place where cotton was picked?
May 16th, 2006 at 5:20 pm#99 how else did they keep their lamps lit? Or make corsets?
May 16th, 2006 at 5:23 pmHow did you graduate high school thinking manitees and whales are a place where cotton was picked?
Comment by unbelievable
Oh, the Huge Manatee!
I crack myself up…
May 16th, 2006 at 5:27 pmThis is as Irrelevant as the Jose Conseco thread.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:30 pmKenny! King of the Irrelevant!
May 16th, 2006 at 5:31 pmThis is as Irrelevant as the Jose Conseco thread.
Comment by Kenny — May 16, 2006 @ 5:30 pm
More egocentric blather from another white man who doesn’t get it.
Just wait for another forum then Kenny and quit complaining that you don’t get it. We know already.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:32 pmPlease God, not the tar baby quagmire!
May 16th, 2006 at 5:33 pmI crack myself up…
Comment by Zookeeper — May 16, 2006 @ 5:27 pm
IRI likes to say that a lot… :D
May 16th, 2006 at 5:34 pm#103 Couldn’t the word ZOOKEEPER have a racial undertone. You may have to change your moniker for fear of offending.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:35 pmThis entire WH and its followers are becoming more bizarre by the minute.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:37 pmKenny you can stop proving your lack of intellect now. We noticed it with your first post.
zoo·keep·er
May 16th, 2006 at 5:38 pmn.
One who takes care of animals in a zoo.
Kenny, Terr and Kenneth Fair, if this is so nothing why are you wasting all your time worring about it, don’t you have a war to fight for your der furher, or a border to guard to keep all those”illegals ” out?
May 16th, 2006 at 5:38 pmQuagmire? Did I say quagmire? I meant to say, please Tony Snow, don’t throw me in that there briar patch…
May 16th, 2006 at 5:39 pm#104 check the archives here at TP my race and gender are both revealed. Youre quite mistaken.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:40 pm#107 – Please give me your thoughts on “Zookeeper” as having racial undertones, and I shall consider a change. Otherwise — be gone.
May 16th, 2006 at 5:42 pmOkay, obviously Mr. Snow has a more extensive vocabulary than many people, and it’s laudable that he was probably among the few who realized that he was (technically speaking) using the term “tar baby” correctly. But as the good dictionary said, it’s best not to attempt to use the term at all. And why would he use that term in the first place? Of all the colloquialisms he could have used, he had to pick that term? To me it says a lot about his unconscious mind.
Song of the Manatee????? (He must be young and the movie was locked away never to be seen again before he was born.)
May 16th, 2006 at 5:44 pmFor those of you unfamiliar with the use of tar baby as a racial epithet, here’s another story:
http://www.blackcommentator.com/tar_baby.html
May 16th, 2006 at 5:47 pmIRI likes to say that a lot… :D
Comment by unbelievable
Can you tell I skip over IRI’s comments? I think I’ll stop using that phrase anyhow. ;)
May 16th, 2006 at 5:51 pm#112 – Ah, I recall that your “butt is brown as a berry.” Am I correct?
May 16th, 2006 at 5:55 pmI don’t recall your gender — Kenny.
#107 Just having fun. But awfuly nice of you to offer to change the name if it offended me. And to Unbelievable re:#48 I followed your suggestion.(didn’t have to travel further than my living room) Seems in my house only my cranky brother in law took offense. But then again He’s not very well read. The other four of us all read Br”er Rabbit. Education seems to be the key.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:01 pmFor those of you unfamiliar with the use of tar baby as a racial epithet, here’s another story:
I don’t doubt it could be used that way, I just was unfamiliar with it. It is odd though that through the whole article they use the term “good old boys” like crazy.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:01 pm#117 very good you type so much faster than me.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:02 pmKenny is not black. But he is self-centered and ignorant.
I decided to ask my uneducated mother from the Baby Boomer generation, who was born in the Northeast, if she knows what a ‘tar baby’ is. She said, verbatim, “A black baby”. She had heard of the other definition, but it was not her first answer.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:02 pm[. . .]
“Brer Rabbit keep on axin’ ‘im, en de Tar-Baby, she keep on sayin’ nothin’, twel present’y Brer Rabbit draw back wid his fis’, he did, en blip he tuck ‘er side er de head. Right dar’s whar he broke his merlasses jug. His fis’ stuck, en he can’t pull loose. De tar hilt ‘im. But Tar-Baby, she stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.
“`Ef you don’t lemme loose, I’ll knock you agin,’ sez Brer Rabbit, sezee, en wid dat he fotch ‘er a wipe wid de udder han’, en dat stuck. Tar-Baby, she ain’y sayin’ nuthin’, en Brer Fox, he lay low.”
I don’t know, I think my original interpretaion was correct. There might be several other interpretations within the story, but “you are attached to what you attack” is also in the story.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:05 pmI never heard of tarbaby thought of as a derogatory term until today. But what do I know, I am but an innocent bunny. If words become unusable if it is used derogatorially in the past, then we would be letting the racists to define out vocabulary. It is time to reclaim words such as tarbaby from the racists. To reclaim the word is to reclaim the culture which the racists has painted with blind strokes. By stealing “tarbaby” form the american lexicon, the racists is in fact claiming more than a word but all the folk tales too, and from there the entire culture, so that they can use it in caricture, and enslave it for their vile uses. We must free the grubby paws of the racists from words, tales, and cultures. To set it free, and not yield to their trespasses. And in time we can restore the tarbaby to briar rabbit, and all his friends.
To reclaim the word, we must use it. Use it correctly, the way it was before its racist corruption. We must use it proudly, and say that we own this word, not the racists. We own it in a way that the racists can never appreciate. For they can only mock, not elevate. we must make it so that the dictionaries has to drop its racist conotation, for it is no longer used.
Sorry about the rant but it just bugs me that racists gets to define our language.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:05 pmDear God, please let Keith Olbermann cover this. Oh, and put a bolt of lightning up that Aryan Snow’s crotch, OK?
May 16th, 2006 at 6:07 pmI followed your suggestion.(didn’t have to travel further than my living room) Seems in my house only my cranky brother in law took offense. But then again He’s not very well read. The other four of us all read Brâ€er Rabbit. Education seems to be the key.
Comment by Kenny — May 16, 2006 @ 6:01 pm
That would be hysterical if it were true.
Now go try Uncle Tom and the n-word. Let us know how that goes over so we can compare and contrast.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:08 pm123,
Well said, good point
May 16th, 2006 at 6:08 pmIt’s interesting that he set up answering Helen with something like ” lets segregate the issues”
May 16th, 2006 at 6:12 pmBushian slip?
Good point JUST JOHN , But I think the term “Chinese Finger Trap” is much less offensive than’T@rb@by” because the former relates to an object, the latter a Human Being
May 16th, 2006 at 6:13 pm#121 Can you see thru my computer? Strange I dont have a web cam. Sorry if my post dont reflect what you think is “the black veiw”. I’m a little convoluted in my thinking. More libertarian than liberal. And a shameless capitalist when it comes to MY money. Call me crazy but I’ve worked hard for and saved quite alot of it and dont want my govt wasting anymore than I gotta give them. I confess I even pay capital gains now. But the one thing I’m sure of is in the morning my dear wife has to look at is my Big Black…………face.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:13 pmI’m far from HIGHLY educated and my wife would debate you if you called me smart.
Comment by Kenny — May 16, 2006 @ 4:14 pm
You said I was wrong about your gender. So, are you a man or a lesbian living in Massachusetts?
May 16th, 2006 at 6:14 pmCan you see thru my computer?
Comment by Kenny — May 16, 2006 @ 6:13 pm
Well, if you’re a black woman, then I can be psychic…
May 16th, 2006 at 6:16 pmFor the record, the story of Brer Rabbit and the tar baby is based on a West African folk tale about Anansi. So to say that it’s inherently racist is a bit of a stretch.
I don’t think the White House press secretary should have used the term, but way too much is being made out of it.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:16 pmDaniel,
The country Niger is also in Africa. So go tell blacks that the n-word, a derogatory term derived from the mispronunciation of that name can’t be racist.
It’a about intent. Just like Aunt Jemima pancake syrup changed its image when the term became an epithet.
So I guess you still use the word gay to mean happy and queer to mean odd?
Seriously.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:20 pmUnbelievable you doubt a troll who has appeared to have use three different names to make us think that there are more than one troll arguing that using a racial slur by a white house press spokesman is nothing to get worried about, like the time good ole trent lott shoves his foot into his mouth, well he might be decietful but at least kenny got off southpark to grace us today….
May 16th, 2006 at 6:20 pm#120 – It’s weird because I didn’t look that up in the archives — I remembered it. I recall being intrigued…
May 16th, 2006 at 6:21 pmI said earlier post disclosed my race and gender. I find myself mentioning the smartest thing I’ve done with my life all the time. That would be marrying her. Dont be so suspicious. Also if we’re gonna argue on this thing I’m gonna need a few word head start. Your improving my typing but my spelling goes down when I try to keep up with you.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:21 pmare you a man or a lesbian living in Massachusetts?
Are you saying only Lesbians live in Massachusetts? :)
May 16th, 2006 at 6:22 pmbut at least kenny got off southpark to grace us today….
Comment by Clif — May 16, 2006 @ 6:20 pm
Yeah, ‘grace’ is the word I was thinking here ; )
May 16th, 2006 at 6:23 pmI agree with Chris Wolf #98.
Snow’s first two outings as press secretary for the WH have both been controversial with racist overtones. Or which could be construed as having racist overtones. How coincidental can this be? Perhaps, Snow has decided that his new job is the proverbial ‘tar baby’ and he wants OUT. Ergo, he is making public gaffes, racial insinuations and even sobbing in public. All situations which have been known to get public figures fired. I simply do not believe this is being done without forethought or reason.
Snow has realized he is in over his head with this WH, and that his own ethics and morals, will not allow him to do this job with a good conscious.
He is begging to be fired. After learning he is inDEED in the proverbial briar patch.
Serves him right, for all those years he backed up this administration. Even that memo he fired off telling the press they were not covering the ‘good news’ of this administration…yeah riiiiight….he must have had lots of angst over that..which is why his doctor had to tell him those stomach pains were not colon cancer.
Snow has decided to act like Colbert in hopes of being fired…hahahahahaha
May 16th, 2006 at 6:23 pmPlease.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:24 pmThey parse, they explicate, they frame because they know the EMOTIONAL IMPACT of their carefully chosen words and phrases, think “TERROR”, “CAUTION”, “SECURITY”, “PATRIOT” yada yada..
You know, * BUZZ WORDS *.
I agree, this was deliberate, a power play and it worked.
#135 just something my mother said about my oldest son when he was born. Been using it ever since.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:25 pmDaniel there is an old saying from ancestors of my father that says do not judge a man unless you walk in his moccasins for a day, and since you haven’t do not attempt to judge the insult others might feel….
May 16th, 2006 at 6:25 pmSorry Kenny, but I don’t remember anything about you. And I’m really not going to spend my time digging if you can’t just come out and post it here. I have no attention span for those sorts of games.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:26 pmAre you saying only Lesbians live in Massachusetts? :)
Comment by Tundra — May 16, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
Legally only married ones do. :)
May 16th, 2006 at 6:27 pmIf Snow doesn’t like his job any more, wouldn’t he just resign?
Do they have 90-day probationary periods for cabinet posts (this is not a real question for those thinking of ed-u-ma-cating me on the matter :)
May 16th, 2006 at 6:29 pm#141 – That’s so sweet. Thanks.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:29 pmWhat in the world is going on here. Tarbaby means “a sticky situation — something hard to get out of…” When did this get a racist connotation. I guess I missed something. OK. I just looked this thing up. It’s from Brer Rabbit for pete’s sake. Could it possibly be hat people see racism where there is none. Semi-related: I manage our company’s anti-spam system. Until recently we maintained a “blacklist” of banned email domains. But the vendor (CipherTrust) recently changed this to “Blocklist” because “blacklist” apparantly was offending black people. OMG, it’s a color people. Can we get over this stuff already?
May 16th, 2006 at 6:31 pmZookeeper its always nice to be acknowledged by someone.Thanks. Having dinner now ,maybe Unbelievable can look into her magic computer and tell me whats on the table. To all, Smile and Gooodnite.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:33 pmOh get over it! We all have to ‘hug the tar baby’ at some point. It’s obvious he’s using the reference (as I am) in the context of being in an imposible position to defend. Guess what? He’s ended up ‘hugging the tar baby’ anyway. What a funny paradox.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:36 pm#148 – Have a nice evening.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:36 pmPeople… if you feel–in any way–that Snow’s comment is a racist slur… GROW UP!
“WAAAAAAAA… he called me a NAME!”
May 16th, 2006 at 6:37 pmThe easy way to determine what Snow meant is to watch for his reaction to having the derogatory meaning pointed out to him. If he says he wasn’t familiar with that usage and says he will avoid the term in the future, then I he can be reasonably assumed to have been unfamiliar with it. It’s possible that his only contact (hah!) with “tar baby” may have been from Uncle Remus.
On the other hand, if he sputters and complains that he’s being race-baited and that only an uppity person of color would take offense at the term (despite history that it has, in fact been used as an epithet by a certain segment of the white population) then you can assume he knew what he was saying could be offensive.
As the Bush says, history will be the decider.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:39 pmRobert as soon as we get over the genocide and slavery that this counrty is actually built on….
May 16th, 2006 at 6:39 pmI’m sorry, but when I see this quote:
Having said that, I don’t want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program, the alleged program, the existence of which I can neither confirm nor deny.
Thinkprogress would be better advised to headline: WHITEHOUSE STONEWALLS ON ALLEGED ILLEGAL ACTIVITY rather than fussing about the tarbaby nonsense. Inarticulate? Insensitive? Probably. Don’t bury the lede, folks.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:40 pmmaybe Unbelievable can look into her magic computer and tell me whats on the table. To all, Smile and Gooodnite.
Comment by Kenny — May 16, 2006 @ 6:33 pm
First Kenny’s a he and not highly educated.
Then Kenny’s not a he, is black and is highly educated.
And then, as he trips over his gender faux pas, Kenny is a he, and a father.
Doesn’t take a magic computer Kenny to know that your having crap for dinner (since you’re obviously so full of it).
May 16th, 2006 at 6:44 pmRobert and Jono Jack Rackham,
We’re coming over to your house to burn flags. You have to tolerate it because it’s legal.
Insensitive morons.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:46 pmFor people who don’t think it’s a big deal, why don’t you redirect your feigned outrage at those who are offended by it to the bastard who used a term WE ALL KNOW is a racist slur…
But what do I know, maybe I’m just trying to hug the Porch Monkey?
Doesn’t make it right, does it?
Nope. Not at all.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:48 pmSome very ignorant kid said today that he hates Martin Luther King Jr.
I told him “You don’t know the man. He died before you were born.”
“Well, I know what he stands for an I hate that.” the kid insisted.
“You hate tolerance? Who hates tolerance?” I replied, noticing the black kid standing next to him trying not to feel insulted.
It is a big deal people. When an entire race of people has been oppressed for their skin color, and continues to be in some parts of the country, it’s a very big deal.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:53 pm#151 – “WAAAAAAAA… he called me a NAME!â€
Comment by Rod
Funny — coming from a guy named — Rod.
May 16th, 2006 at 6:54 pmI have no mercy or compassion in me for a society that will crush people, and then penalize them for not being able to stand up under the weight.
Malcolm X (1925 – 1965),
May 16th, 2006 at 6:57 pm“Tar Baby” is the name of a book by ‘Toni Morrison’ which won the Nobel Peace Prize in Literature. Not confused with “the Tar Baby” which is a novel by ‘Jerome Charyn’. Then there is the restored sculptur, TAR BABY VS. ST. SEBASTIAN at the North Carolina Museum of Art and what about Walt Disney’s “The Wonderful Tar Baby”? Well we all know Walt was a wacist, wight? Seems to me you’re gonna need a lot of flags. Iraq is a big Tar Baby too.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:01 pmThere is a famous Saturday Night Live sketch with Chevy Chase and Richard Pryor where it’s obvious that “tar baby” is a derogatory term.
Obviously, Tony Snow is not an SNL fan.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:11 pmAnd the Republicans are courting the African Americans??? I hope African Americans realize that all blacks are tokens in the Republican party as are any other ethnic group. The Repubs really like it LILY WHITE. Tony Snow’s comment is just further proof – a Freudian slip – more like it. There are more appropriate metaphors that the Snowman could have used.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:17 pmhttp://transcripts.cnn.com/TRANSCRIPTS/0001/24/lkl.00.html
ANN RICHARDS (D), FORMER TEXAS GOVERNOR: “And it’s a tar baby he can’t turn loose of.”
How could she and she was the Governor of a state?
(Yes he has began searching now)
May 16th, 2006 at 7:19 pmHonestly. So “tar-baby” is an offensive slur rather than a colorful and useful metaphor, because ignorant people imagine it to be racist. It wasn’t racist in its original context, it wasn’t racist in the context Tony Snow used it in, and forbidding him to say it because somebody might decide to be offended by it is nuts. This reminds me of when Anthony Williams fired an aid for using the term “niggardly,” in a *completely* non-offensive way, because to ignorant people, it sounds like another, offensive, word. How ’bout let’s not say “beaver dam” any more, either, okay?
This is the kind of behavior by liberals – and I am one, btw – that makes us the worthy objects of mockery. Let’s find a real problem to complain about, it’s not like it’s difficult these days.
Oh, and apparently neither Tony Snow no a commenter above is really familiar with the fable… Brer Rabbit’s tarbaby wasn’t a baby who he tried to hug. Brer Rabbit got stuck because he hauled off and hit the tarbaby for, he thought, refusing to speak to him. The madder he got, and the more he struck the tarbaby, the stucker he got. Tarbaby’s a great, illustrative term, and I for one have no intention of abandoning it for the sake of ignorant people’s sensibilities. Grow up.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:21 pmLet’s string up Tony! You people are pathetic. I know context is a tough concept for you, but you PC police REALLY need to get a clue. The context of his use of this phrase is clear and has absolutely no racial tone whatsover.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:23 pmJust to let people know, as a black man raised in the 60s, I find the word tar baby to ver insensitive, also I find that that the people who do not understand why, are also insensitive.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:26 pmWhen the black mayor of New Orleans stated that New Orleans was going to be “chocolate” again, the press made a big stink about it. Now Mr. Lily White Snowman uses the term ‘tar baby’ and the press says nothing.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:28 pmAs a black man who grew up in the 60s and had to endure racism at it worst, I find the term tar baby to be insensitive, also, for all who do not understand why I feel that way, are also insensitve
May 16th, 2006 at 7:29 pmWitch thanks for the explanation of the lore. But take a poll of the two definitions. The majority of Americans are probably only familiar with the darker meaning; some like Tony (I believe) only with the meaning in lore; while others are aware of both. Thus, it is understandable why the majority of Americans were shocked by his use of the term. I for one was flabbergasted, until I found this page. Contextually either meaning worked.
May 16th, 2006 at 7:32 pmTony — you’re not on FNC anymore, you can’t say things like that. But wait, who really cares about that in the BA?
“Tar baby” is pretty bad, but I thought Snow’s absolute breakdown today was far more interesting.
http://www.lcoliberal.blogspot.com
Snow day: Right now on LCL
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
May 16th, 2006 at 7:37 pmA fresh SSA:Editorial is now on SSA
Snow off to a racist start…
From Think Progress, here’s what Tony Snow had to say today during his first briefing:SNOW: Having said that, I don’t want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program, the alleged program, the existence of which…
May 16th, 2006 at 8:02 pmIt may not be an admission of racism, but is one of ignorance.
May 16th, 2006 at 8:02 pm“The majority of Americans are probably only familiar with the darker meaning”;
This has been asserted a number of times, but I have no idea why people think this. I grew up in the south among open racists, and never heard this used as a slur, although I certainly can believe that it has been used that way – we’re a racist country, and we find lots of ways to derogate people. Do a bit of googling (or just plain reading, for that matter) and you will innumerable intances of this term used in its original sense. I can’t believe that we want to throw away good, colorful language, rooted in our folkways, because some yahoos find a way to use it as an insult. That’s crazy.
“Thus, it is understandable why the majority of Americans were shocked by his use of the term.”
And I don’t know WHERE you got this… the majority of Americans didn’t even hear him say it. This is total projection.
May 16th, 2006 at 8:03 pm#139 Perhaps, Snow has decided that his new job is the proverbial ‘tar baby’ and he wants OUT.
Using the word ‘tar baby’ in the context of this sentence does not sound racist. Using this term in this context “hug the tar baby” smells of racism. One sentence ‘tar baby’ is an inanimate object, the other sentence ‘tar baby’ becomes human thereby sounding racist. Words take on meanings based on how they are used. The English language has more words than any other language which requires knowing what words to use and when to use them.
May 16th, 2006 at 8:24 pmfwiw, i’m 30+ years old, grew up in the south, and never heard “tar baby” used a racial slur (heard plenty of other terms). apparently it is used that way, but i’m still unclear why it would be racist in the context snow used it in.
May 16th, 2006 at 8:56 pmThis is way too much attention for this topic. Seems kinda rabid at times.
May 16th, 2006 at 9:11 pmC’mon. I’m as ready as the next liberal to jump on a mistake by
May 16th, 2006 at 9:15 pmthe new guy, but I was raised that “tar baby” refers to the Brer
Rabbit meaning and is suitable for use in public speech.
Given the context that he used it in, there shouldn’t be any doubt
what he meant.
I gotta say that this is way too much time wasted on a topic that only serves to make us look like overly sensitive whiners. I understand both the original etymology of “tar baby” as well as the racial slur. I’m sure Snow’s comment was in reference to Brer Rabbit version. I admit that it was stupid for him to use this term considering its other connotation, however, we have more important topics to tackle than Snow’s flippant comments. So my fellow liberals and democrats, just take a pill and move on.
May 16th, 2006 at 9:21 pm#179 by those who knows the two different meanings…kinda like the repug trot to Bob Jones U when they declare for Office to make sure the right message is sent to the right people…RIGHT?
May 16th, 2006 at 9:22 pmPosted earlier at talk left.
it is not reasonable to misapply folk literature to attack an opponent.
more importantly, it is immensely destructive to that literature.
think progress, which is at the top of my reading list each day, is simply wrong, and opportunistic, in this instance.
joel chandler harris’ “uncle remus” was, essentially, a plagiarism (by harris) of black folk tales. except of course, like the brothers grimm, and hans christian andersen, we don’t really consider it plagiarism when somebody writes things down for the first time.
these are wonderful stories.
wonderful for children.
wonderful for adults.
read them!
criticizing the president’s new spokesman for using “tar baby” is like criticizing american (liberal)commentators for being “racist” with respect to the dubai ports deal.
“political correctness” is not a term i like a lot,
mostly because it had its origins in the opposition to competent women joining american university faculties in the 1980’s (begun at the univ of texas, natch).
but the term definitely applies here.
some problems are, indeed, “tar babies” – difficult, “sticky” problems.
furthermore, although i can’t even pretend to know all of southern racial invective, i don’t recall “tar baby” being an oft-used racial slur, as think progress implies.
it bothers me a lot that think progress,
leaves the cite from random house hanging, as if they did not themselves have the courage to recommend it,
but were willing to hide behind random house’s reputation and insinuate.
think progress owes it readers an apology.
and it needs to remind this opportunistic reporter/editorialist that it is facts,
not insinuations,
that win the argument
and the day.
May 16th, 2006 at 9:24 pmMan, i’m beginning to think you guys are a bunch of over sensitive whiners (thanks Vaughn D. Taylor). Then to top it off some left wing nuts are slamming Tony for choking up when asked to discuss his bout with cancer (as if it wasn’t genuine). I thought the republicans were supposed to be the heartless ones? Dang, your fangs are showing.
May 16th, 2006 at 9:58 pmI don’t know how many people in this discussion have read the Uncle Remus, but from what I remember, Brer Rabbit didn’t hug the tar baby, he punched it for giving him the silent treatment when he said hello, which he considered to be a disrespectful affront. It was a clever trap set by Brer Fox and Brer Bear to catch the Brer Rabbit, and the one time they were successful, by catching him through is own conceit. Of course, he escaped by offering to them the one punishment he couldn’t withstand “please don’t throw me in that briar patch!” (the best of two sayings from that story, but both are good.)
You can deconstruct or politically correct that however you want to draw some conclusions, I’m just relaying the story.
ps. the rabbit, bear, and fox were all negroes, the baby was creosote.
May 16th, 2006 at 10:11 pmDefinition: to tar and feather a person
Source: Webster’s Revised Unabridged Dictionary (1913)
Tar \Tar\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Tarred; p. pr. & vb. n. Tarring.]
To smear with tar, or as with tar; as, to tar ropes; to tar
cloth. To tar and feather a person. See under Feather, v. t.
Feather \Feath”er\, v. t. [imp. & p. p. Feathered; p. pr. &
vb. n. Feathering.]
1. To furnish with a feather or feathers, as an arrow or a
cap. An eagle had the ill hap to be struck with an arrow
feathered from her own wing. –L’Estrange.
2. To adorn, as with feathers; to fringe. A few birches oaks still feathered the narrow ravines. –Sir W. Scott.
3. To render light as a feather; to give wings to.[R.]
The Polonian story perhaps may feather some tedions
hours. –Loveday.
4. To enrich; to exalt; to benefit.
They stuck not to say that the king cared not to
plume his nobility and people to feather himself.
–Bacon.
–Dryden.
5. To tread, as a cock. –Dryden.
To feather one’s nest, to provide for one’s self especially
from property belonging to another, confided to one’s
care; — an expression taken from the practice of birds
which collect feathers for the lining of their nests.
To feather an oar (Naut), to turn it when it leaves the
water so that the blade will be horizontal and offer the
least resistance to air while reaching for another stroke.
To tar and feather a person, to smear him with tar and cover him with feathers, as a punishment or an indignity.Nuff Said
May 16th, 2006 at 10:19 pmergo snow is a apologist for the greedy nest lining Bush types.
May 16th, 2006 at 10:24 pmErgo the bushies are tar babies, not the blacks or whites, Bush is signalling he was wrong. He has been Indignant and refuse to say so publicly.
Damnit George SAY WHAT YOU MEAN!!
May 16th, 2006 at 10:27 pmSAy it!!!!
and if its truth we wil be behind you 100%
If you mislead us, of course we cannot back the “Idignant”
those whom line their nests at the cost of others.
Tony has lined his nest.
May 16th, 2006 at 10:29 pmthe Tar baby has snagged yet another victim.
And he hugged it.$$
uh, the fact is that the phrase ‘tar baby’, despite its origins, has had a racist connotation in the american vernacular for quite some time. one needs only to consider the term for a few brief seconds to understand why it might be offensive (seriously, if you can’t fathom why some might consider this phrase to be insulting, or how it could be used in an insulting manner, then you need a course in remedial english).
it is also true that the phrase was used in ’song of the south’, and that you will have a very hard time finding the disney version of this story on dvd, video or any other format because it was taken completely out of production, deemed racist and insensitive. there was a big kerfuffle about this in the 80’s. i specifically remember, however, seeing this movie at a cinema as a child (in the 70’s) in alabama.
i don’t think we’ll ever know whether tony snow actually was aware of the negative application of the term. it could be that he was completely ignorant of the connotation, or it could be that he was floating a ‘test balloon’ for the so-called “moral values” voters (i.e. the republican base — and how ironic that one of the best ways to get the base excited is to embed racist innuendo into a speech?). or it could be, as a previous commenter has said, that mr. snow has already realized the futility of his position and wants out.
is this newsworthy? well, that the new press secretary for a less-than-stellar-on-racial-issues president is using a widely-accepted derogatory term for black people might not be as newsworthy as, say, the president himself using the word ‘crusade’ to describe a war in the middle east, but it is certainly relevant enough to warrant discussion in the press. it’s also certainly relevant enough for someone to kindly inform the press secretary that, yes, that term is, in fact, derogatory.
should he lose his job over it? well, as i indicated before, this was either an honest mistake or it was intentional. if it was an honest mistake, correct him and let’s move on. if, however, someone from tony snow’s past was able to prove that he would have to know the term’s significance beyond just the innocuous meaning he has supplied, then he’s looking at a much more complicated situation.
many might recall that trent lott lost his senate leadership post for making some cryptic comments praising strom thurmond a couple of years ago. this was a case of republican political infighting and opportunism as much (or more) than it was outright racism, but still the results speak for themselves. we’ve all seen how saying the wrong thing at the wrong time can adversely affect one’s political career (except, inexplicably, for chimpy mcflightsuit)…
this isn’t quite the same as the ‘niggardly’ controversy from 1999, which was a ridiculous instance of unfortunate misappropriation of meaning and context that demonstrates the hypersensitive state of racial affairs. (for those that don’t know, at the time an aide for the mayor of dc resigned for “insensitive” use of ‘niggardly’ when addressing two city employees, who were obviously unaware of the meaning of the word, complained. he was ultimately rehired to another position after the mayor admitted a mistake in accepting his resignation. http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/local/longterm/williams/williams020499.htm)
so overall, yes, it’s worth discussion, but no, i’m not ready to storm the white house press briefing room and demand snow’s head on a stake. i’m also of the mind that this could be one of those convenient distractions. if it is, i say, “enough with the sacrificial lambs. BRING ON ROVE.”
May 16th, 2006 at 10:32 pmI don’t know about all this. Seems to me that a lot of folks here are interested in taking the cheap shot while flaunting their cultural illiteracy at the same time.
I agree, it was probably a poor choice of words because of the possibility of deliberate or accidental misinterpretation.
I’m certainly no fan of the sick, evil, Bush administration or their Fox News mouthpieces.
I read Uncle Remus stories when I was a kid, same as I read Aesop’s fables… and I saw the Disney animation of the story as well. I know exactly what he was referencing when I saw this story, and it’s a perfectly apt metaphor that unfortunately has been highjacked by racist slang.
All the same, I don’t want to be as deliberately ignorant and eager to be offended as the folks that got the Washington DC Mayor’s aide temporarily fired from his job because they perceived a racial epithet in the use of the old english word ‘niggardly’.
There’s plenty of issues of substance to get worked up over with this administration. What amounts to an admiittedly hazardous use of a literary reference that apparently flies over the head of most of his audience is not really one of them, in my opinon. I’m sure he knows better now…
Getting whipped up into a froth over something like this just plays into the hands of those who mock liberals for being so ‘PC”, and I don’t see the point when there’s so many more substantive things to be getting justifiably worked up over.
May 16th, 2006 at 10:36 pmBoy, am I out of touch. After readomg all of this falderall about Tony Snow’s use of “Tar Baby” I realize that ignorance will triumph. While I’m no fan of Mr. Snow’s, I knew exactly what he meant, having been brought up on the “Tales of Uncle Rehmus.” I have used the term many times to represent a situation that draws one in the more one resists. Call me naieve, but I never considered any racial connotation.
May 16th, 2006 at 10:40 pmunfortunately mr. snow may have been referencing ‘tales of uncle remus’, but he walked right into this because to most of us the last 5 years have been “tales of how they ream us”.
that’s just how it is now. this administration can’t say or do anything in the public eye without someone noticing and taking offense. and with good reason.
if they were worth defending, i’d do it. but they’re not. they’ve gotten themselves into this mess and deserve every bit of scrutiny to which they are subjected.
May 16th, 2006 at 11:20 pmThe term ‘tar baby’ has always fascinated me, and frustrated me as well, since it was the nickname I was given when i started a new school in the 3rd grade… I appreciate that it is not used correctly, and as #123 said, I hate it as well. Not only did hearing snow used it on the air, shock me, but when I read Bernard Weiner use it in his latest article on Op Ed News, I really did a double take. Here’s the link:
http://www.opednews.com/articles/opedne_bernard__060516__22shallow_throat_22_on_.htm
May 16th, 2006 at 11:21 pmok #191 (j.t.) – you’re naive!
(hey don’t blame me, you asked for it…)
seriously, think about how those two words together could be offensive, it’s not hard.
having spent a lot of time in the south, i know i’ve heard it used that way.
i admit this is overblown, but maybe that’s the point (hey, look over here at this obvious distraction!)… also i can’t believe no one remembers the big deal made in the 80’s when ’song of the south’ was officially “retired” from the disney repertoire because of the apparent racist overtones. some of the same anti-pc arguments being trotted out today. not that i disagree with that…language doesn’t kill or maim – people do!
May 16th, 2006 at 11:32 pm“Dang, your fangs are showing.”
#183: I don’t really understand what you are saying in your post. But anyway, my point is that this whole “tar baby” comment, while it is racially charged language, doesn’t mean too much right now. Snow is probably well aware of how his comment would play out in the media — it’s a distraction from the real issues at hand. We need to focus on what the important issues are — NSA, Iraq, corruption, scandal, etc. that has been going on for the past 5+ years. Snow’s comment means nothing right now.
May 16th, 2006 at 11:33 pmtrust me, ‘tar baby’ has as much to do with uncle remus as ‘coon’ has to do with dan’l boone’s hat!!!
it is a circa 50s 60s racial slur to all the ‘nicer folks’ who didn’t want to use less inncocent sounding terms.
May 16th, 2006 at 11:39 pmI grew up in Pittsburgh, PA, but I now live in New Orleans. There are some native people here that call children “yard apes” — and they are referring to white kids. In the northeast that term carries a much different meaning. I mention this because there are many people who posted here that did not know about the negative connotation of “tar baby” — could this be a regional language issue? Who knows?
May 16th, 2006 at 11:40 pmTar Baby? I don’t think i’ve heard that phrase since the 60’s…What is this guy thinking?
May 16th, 2006 at 11:44 pmYou’re all stupid fools! Snow is lightyears ahead of most people in intelligence. He used a classic literature phrase and nobody got it! shame on all of you ignorant fu**cks!
May 16th, 2006 at 11:51 pmThe “spam filter” would not allow this comment to include multiple links. I’ll post them one at a time.
Here’s a liberal blog using it recently: Republicans Grabbing DeLay Tar Baby
May 16th, 2006 at 11:54 pmIs Salon.com a racist publication for using it? Nixon’s tar baby
May 16th, 2006 at 11:55 pmHere’s another liberal blog using it: The GOP’s Immigration Tar Baby
May 16th, 2006 at 11:56 pmHere’s the far-left antiwar.com using it: Embracing a Lethal Tar Baby
May 16th, 2006 at 11:57 pmHere’s a use of it in a news story: Iraq continues to be the tar baby for both Bush and Blair
And another: Federal prosecutors may be mimicking Brer Rabbit stuck to Tar Baby.
And one more journalistic use: Mormon fundamentalism is a “tar baby” that the LDS Church is stuck with
Are all these people flaming racists too? Or is it just a common expression that refers to a situation where your hubris causes you to intervene in an unnecessary situation that draws you into it and from which it is difficult to extract yourself?
May 16th, 2006 at 11:58 pmLW: I really think that we need to just move on from this. It’s a silly waste of time.
May 16th, 2006 at 11:58 pmTony Snow was stupid to use the term “Tar Baby” but unless he says something worse like n—–r or n—-o nothing will happen to him! Snow is just a FOX News dummy, so he has NO idea about the meaning of racist phrases!
May 17th, 2006 at 12:09 amTar baby is a term used to represent a shit stick they serve in D.C. I never tried it but I heard it’s very salty and taste like Dick…
May 17th, 2006 at 12:10 amFor pity’s sake and for the love of all that’s sacred…
Where has Tony Snow BEEN for the last twenty or thirty years of his life — under a ROCK??? (Then again, in light of the fact that he moved over to the White House from Fox News…)
You gotta be freakin’ KIDDING me. There’s no way in HELL that he can’t have known that’s a racial slur. He can’t possibly be THAT dumb (then again, he did work for Fox) — or have been THAT sheltered growing up. Even if he was, surely working for Fox would have knocked it out of him by now?
Republicans…YEEEEEEEESH!!
May 17th, 2006 at 2:20 amDaily Kos poster called Racist by some members of trueprogressive.org.
Dailykos poster SusanG posted on Mar 21 2006 the following:
Let’s make sure we tie them to their leader like the proverbial tar baby that he is and take them down.
The reference is: http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/3/21/17270/8198
She had the nerve to call our “Commander and Chief” a “Tar Baby” Personally I consider that a slam or a remark that is insulting in some way. I was not sure how other members of the “Blogsphere” would take it until I went to a common Liberal blog called : Thinkprogress.org specifically http://thinkprogress.org/2006/05/16/snow-memo-tar-baby/#comments and reviewed their comments.
Here are a few people that took exception of the “term so wrongly used”
Booker:
just what exactly is your opinion of an openly multi-ethnic society?
lib4:
I guess African Americans will not be upset by the incredibly non-sensical use of this term…..
to that I say “That cracker is crazeeeeeeeeeeeeeâ€
Walter66
“you know, sure hate to have these white supremists bloodlines diluted”
OxyConservative:
The only way I understand “tar baby†to mean is as a racial slur.
How can anyone else not?
GDM:
Sometimes these fools slip up and let their true colors come out, just like Bill (if you abort all black babies it will lower the crime rate) Bennett did.
Paul in LA:
It’s also a clear racist term.
OBGYN for Food:
“Tar Baby†is a term to be used by black people and sociologists only.
Some bloggers like “Kenny” here defended the Liberal blogger with the following:
The above thread states “a situation almost impossible to get out ofâ€, and states this was the context used. Seems to me when someone HEARS a term that has both a legitimate meaning and a derogatory one, and you immediately reference the derogatory. You are the one with the racist thinking more so than the actual speaker.
Tony
crying racism when there really is no proof only hurts the cause of those who are fighting real racism.
That was quickly dismissed by others as:
Anon1
Oh, Kenny, get a life. If a word has two meanings, one offensive, you’re an idiot if you use it at all in the first place.
Cliff:
Kenny, Terr and Kenneth Fair, if this is so nothing why are you wasting all your time worring about it, don’t you have a war to fight for your der furher, or a border to guard to keep all thoseâ€illegals †out?
Other posters proved they were nieve such as the following:
Tundra:
I know you won’t believe it but, I’m from Detroit and I never heard it as racial slur.
Terr:
May 17th, 2006 at 3:49 amI have *never* heard of tar-baby being used in a derogatory context before. Always as a fable.
To all that are defending Snow.
Would you say the term “…tar baby…” or “..script monkey…” or “…niggardly…” in a room full of black people?
If you’re defending Snow and you wouldn’t say those things in front of a group of black people then you’re full of crap and you know it.
Thanx
May 17th, 2006 at 3:54 am212:
If you’re defending Snow and you wouldn’t say those things in front of a group of black people then you’re full of crap and you know it.
Or one could say if you don’t not denounce SusanG from DailyKos you are full of Crap?
May 17th, 2006 at 3:57 amI will state that I have over 400 democratic/Liberal sites openly using the term all written in a pretty little notepad doc here (almost seems to be a literal thing).
I do expect everyone that slammed Tony Snow for using the term to denounce all of them as well as racists or ignorant.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:03 amI may also have a senator/governor/mayor and/or house member or two with that quote (possibly a past president or first lady too!!).
Not to hard to find if you google alot of popular Dems :)
May 17th, 2006 at 4:07 amI have never heard this phrase used to describe a situation this way. Ever. Does this phrase enjoy a common usage that I am unaware of? Tony Snow should do himself, and everyone else a favor, and retire this peculiar turn of phrase forever. Where in the hell do these idiots come from? They never cease to amaze. And just think, it’s only his second try.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:14 amAnd just think, it’s only his second try.
Comment by Cyra Brown — May 17, 2006 @ 4:14 am
He’s not terribly professional. A journalist should have a comprehensive grasp of the English language and not use colliquilisms in the context in which he currently resides. His job is to communicate information from the White House to a diversity of citizens. Like it or not, it does hold him to a higher standard. But coming from Rich White Boy News (FAUX), it’s not like he has much practice in communicating to a diverse audience. I almost can’t wait to see what he’ll say next. Anything to wake up the sheep.
May 17th, 2006 at 7:35 amI do expect everyone that slammed Tony Snow for using the term to denounce all of them as well as racists or ignorant.
Comment by Tundra — May 17, 2006 @ 4:03 am
You might wanna expect to be disappointed instead. :)
May 17th, 2006 at 7:37 amWhat’s to understand? Rove is going to be indicted today in all probability…distraction, controlling the news cycle is what this about. Expect another big story today (besides Rove I mean). Consider:
a: How odd was it that Rove chose David Corn of all people to call on at AEI?
b: How convenient this NSA wiretapping story is, remember, everytime it’s talked about 9/11 and terrorism is brought back to life.
c: The 9/11 tapes that showed nothing but took up an entire news cycle.
d: Tony Snow’s pre-arranged fake crying. Think I’m too cynical. “Tony what is that yellow thing on your wrist?” “Hold on…it’s cancer”..tears well up. I have a recent cancer survivor (last year) and he doesn’t cry about it. Oh and “tar baby” that doesn’t strike you as a little strange? That was either the dumbest thing ever or another distraction.
e: Olberman reported that Fitz and his team were meeting yesterday afternoon to “discuss the case.” When has this sort of info been provided before? Looks like the clear “heads up” Fitz promised.
Wouldn’t be surprised to see a morning or mid afternoon resignation…
May 17th, 2006 at 7:59 am#182joel chandler harris’ “uncle remus†was, essentially, a plagiarism (by harris) of black folk tales. except of course, like the brothers grimm, and hans christian andersen, we don’t really consider it plagiarism when somebody writes things down for the first time
While Hans Christian Andersen did base a few of his stories on folktales, most of his works, including his most famous fairy tales such as The Ugly Duckling, The Empereror’s New Clothes and The Little Mermaid, were certainly not plagiarism or writings down of already existing folklore.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:34 am“…I will state that I have over 400 democratic/Liberal sites openly using the term all written in a pretty little notepad doc here (almost seems to be a literal thing).
I do expect everyone that slammed Tony Snow for using the term to denounce all of them as well as racists or ignorant…”
When it comes to race the left gets the benefit of the doubt. Bush standing by while the Southern Strategy was implemented in 2000 using McCains “black” (she wasn’t even black as if that should’ve made a difference) daughter was used to garner more support from the Reich wing against McCain. Bush and the Reich wing since Nixon has been uterly disgusting with race in the 20th and 21st centurty. 50% of all black males WITH a highschool education in America are unemployed compared to similarly situated whites males in their 20s. To put that into context war torn Iraq has 45% unemployment and mostly 3rd world India has 29%. Yes, black males in theier 20s WITH a highschool education today in America face more unemployment that war torn and 3rd world countrys.
Anyone who says the GOP has been on the progressive side of racials issues is an apologist, anyone saying racism is dead is a racist, anyone saying they wouldn’t say “tar baby” in front of a group of blacks but defend Mr. Snow should check themselves, anyone saying what Mr Snow said is triviele isn’t black in America.
Thanx
May 17th, 2006 at 8:47 amAdmit it unbelievable, you’re never going to approve of any spokesperson for Bush—no matter who it is. But let the next president be a Democrat with Elmer Fudd as their spokesperson—and you’ll think he masterfully articulates the presidents positions.
May 17th, 2006 at 8:51 am#213 I’m going to watch out for the left saying term like “tar baby” in the future and hopefully they’ll be a little more sensitive. I’m just not willing to give the Reich any room on race because they’ve been totally disgusting in the last century and this one too when it comes to race in America.
BTW: A couple of brown faces in high places doesn’t equate to a policy of inclusion.
Thx
May 17th, 2006 at 8:52 amThis whole thing reminds me of a song by They Might Be Giants
It’s called “your racist friend”
#223
May 17th, 2006 at 8:55 am“and you’ll think he masterfully articulates the presidents positions.”
As long as those positions don’t have R’s in them.
Admit it unbelievable, you’re never going to approve of any spokesperson for Bush—no matter who it is. But let the next president be a Democrat with Elmer Fudd as their spokesperson—and you’ll think he masterfully articulates the presidents positions.
Comment by Antagonist — May 17, 2006 @ 8:51 am
For someone who doesn’t know me, you sure do assume a lot. Especially how many times I’ve said I don’t hate Bush. Funny considering how much you whine when other people doing it to you.
I didn’t dislike Ari Flesher. Scott Mc Clellan was terribly rude to the press corps., rather inarticulate for the position and sweat a lot (not a good image for a press secretary).
Tony Snow isn’t off to a good start, but perhaps he’s one of those who can learn and adjust. Bush doesn’t seem to have a good track record for choices. So, we’ll see. But, you know, a man like Bush who has never earned anything in his life really isn’t inclined to be good at making choices. Even you should be able to understand that.
May 17th, 2006 at 9:02 amP.S. Antagonist – I’m NOT a Democrat. Are you ever right about anything?
May 17th, 2006 at 9:06 amI have absolutely ZERO sympathy for Tony Snow(job)…
…his forced emotion yesterday showed his disingenuous nature…
…and what i find MOST telling about him is…
…the fact that by surviving cancer through the grace of God…
…Snow(job) has been given a second chance in life…
…how does he USE that chance?
…as a lying, propagandist for a mass murdering, TREASONOUS, corrupt, thieving, inhumane cabal of demons…
…in other words, as Press secretary for the criminal Bushite junta…
May 17th, 2006 at 9:18 am“P.S. Antagonist – I’m NOT a Democrat. Are you ever right about anything?”
The political spectrum?
May 17th, 2006 at 9:22 amThe political spectrum?
Comment by squegeeboo — May 17, 2006 @ 9:22 am
What?
May 17th, 2006 at 9:25 amReally? You didn’t get that? Where is he on the political spectrum, the right.
May 17th, 2006 at 9:40 amUnbelievable,
I was only teasing you.
May 17th, 2006 at 9:43 am[...] What they didn't cover…the tarbaby (via) [More] [WMV] [QT]? CBS REPORTER: Why not declassify [the NSA's call records database]? I mean, the President did talk about the surveillance program a day after the New York Times broke that story. This would seem to affect far more people and it did sound like the President was confirming that story today when he was answering questions. SNOW: If you go back and look through what he said, there was a reference of foreign to domestic calls. I am not going to stand up here and presume to declassify any kind of program. That is a decision the President has to make. I can't confirm or deny it. The President was not confirming or denying. Again, I would take you back to the USA Today story to give you a little context. Look at the poll that appeared the following day […] something like 65% of the public was not troubled by it. Having said that, I don't want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program… the alleged program, the existence of which I can neither confirm or deny. [...]
May 17th, 2006 at 9:45 amReally? You didn’t get that? Where is he on the political spectrum, the right.
Comment by squegeeboo — May 17, 2006 @ 9:40 am
It didn’t fit the grammar I used in this context. Wasn’t sure where your warped logic was headed… as usual :)
May 17th, 2006 at 9:48 amI was only teasing you.
Comment by Antagonist — May 17, 2006 @ 9:43 am
Helps explains why the Right has no shows on Comedy Central.
May 17th, 2006 at 9:51 am“Helps explains why the Right has no shows on Comedy Central.”
What are you talking about, we have the Colbert Report.
May 17th, 2006 at 9:59 amWhat are you talking about, we have the Colbert Report.
Comment by squegeeboo — May 17, 2006 @ 9:59 am
Yes, we know you don’t get satire.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:14 amTony – they might kick out the cameras. They have nothing to hide – right? There are too many questions that can’t be answered. In the real world they would all be fired, I do not know any employer that would keep any of these people on payroll.
Too bad they work for us (we are the employer) and we are deaf, dumb and blind
May 17th, 2006 at 10:21 amBut he looks up to Papa Bear O’Reily…wait a min, but bears are the #1 threat to america, so he thinks Papa Bear is the #1 threat…..NOOOOO!!!!!!!! Colbert how could you play of my simple rural baptist views in such a way!!
May 17th, 2006 at 10:21 am#235
Helps explains why the Right has no shows on Comedy Central.
Comment by unbelievable
But think of the material we provide…
May 17th, 2006 at 10:22 amDon’t try and fix the problems BOLTEN – just kick out the camera’s – if it wasn’t so sad I would laugh.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:25 amBut think of the material we provide…
Comment by Antagonist — May 17, 2006 @ 10:22 am
I try not to. It makes my brain bleed…
May 17th, 2006 at 10:28 amCould anyone imagine what would happen back in the day if Fox/White house news tried to do what they are doing these days.
http://www.pictureaustralia.org/nolan/nolan005.html
May 17th, 2006 at 10:30 amIt’s just another sublimiinal battle in the ongoing (supposedly) under-the-radar war on people of color. No one should be too surprised.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:33 amOh come on now unbelievable…even you have to admit that many a comedian has had a field day with the Bush administration.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:35 am#244
May 17th, 2006 at 10:37 amDo you actually believe that?
Oh come on now unbelievable…even you have to admit that many a comedian has had a field day with the Bush administration.
Comment by Antagonist — May 17, 2006 @ 10:35 am
Doesn’t mean I wouldn’t rather have them laughing at Brittany Spears mothering skills or other less catastrophic events and issues.
I don’t think it’s funny that our President is a habitual moron.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:57 am“Professionally offended” progs would be ranting and screeching as usual if Tony Snow had used the terms:
“Snow Babies” – they might interpret this as a subliminal argument promoting ANWR drilling and the “devastation” to the “natural nursery” of the regions species.
“Snow Flake” – progs might interpret this as a slur to “po’ white trash” or the correct term to describe habitually undependable members of wealthy elitist white power structure.
“Snow Angels” – atheist progs and “guilty” white progs can unite on the “disgusting” use of such an offensive moniker.
You progs are too funny!!
May 17th, 2006 at 11:04 am223
When it comes to race the left gets the benefit of the doubt.
225
I’m just not willing to give the Reich any room on race
Thank you for at least admitting that the issue is not really what was said, but the political affiliation of who said it.
May 17th, 2006 at 11:06 amI hear buzzing…
May 17th, 2006 at 11:21 amHow about using Marshmallow Baby instead?
May 17th, 2006 at 11:23 amTony Snow, meet former Arizona governor Evan Mecham. Ask him how his affectionate application of the term ‘pickaninny’ worked out for his career in public service.
May 17th, 2006 at 11:44 amThe Tar Baby is a figure prominent in myth, not just Native American.
Please direct youself to http://www.tobyjohnson.com/tarbaby.html
I’m all for ribbing the neocons, but please. Leave myth and literary history alone. I was tickled pink by Snow’s use of the phrase, because – if you’ll read the article on the page I linked about the Buddha – the true path to enlightenment requires you to hug the tarbaby. Refusing to hug the tarbaby is to admit fear and give in to the basest and most easily overcome unhealthy desire. My favorite passage from that page: “If even comic books and Saturday morning television reveal the essential wisdom, why do we fail to possess the powers? The Buddha answered that, of course, we do possess them: Behold the universe we have created. But we are so mesmerized by that creation that we do not remember our ego-transcendent identity and we do not realize that we are creating it just the way we want to.”
May 17th, 2006 at 11:54 am#247
May 17th, 2006 at 11:54 amComedians also had a field day with Clinton—and still do. It goes with the territory—lighten up!
Isn’t it likely that Snow deliberately chose to use this phrase to describe his relationship with the media? In fact, it is illuminating if he did so (in my view, he surely must have), since he has now cast himself as Br’er Rabbit [the trickster] when he does finally touch a news story. The media are in turn cast as Br’er Fox, the predator. Snow is the trickster who ultimately outwits the predators by getting them to throw him into the briar patch (his native environment).
Snow’s use of the phrase is brilliant on several other levels as well. One is that it provides instant fodder for the anti-PC police, and another is that sticky, quagmire-like news stories become tar babies designed by Br’er Fox (the “liberal” media) to entrap Br’er Rabbit (Snow, and by extension, the administration). The media had better wake up and take notice. He’s taunting them. Br’er Rabbit always gets away. This idea behind this is straight out of the Republican playbook–demonize the media.
Snow wants there to be a buzz about this.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:07 pmIt just shows they don’t give a shit. No, of course he used the term correctly, but as a grown man in politics he should know what is associated with that term. It either shows a lack of sophistication or just exposes the fact he’s been surrounded by white people 24 hours a day his entire life. If he said that around black friends he would have been told what it means to them.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:13 pmComedians also had a field day with Clinton—and still do. It goes with the territory—lighten up!
Comment by Antagonist — May 17, 2006 @ 11:54 am
Clinton did not (you really need me to list this? And I’m NOT a Clinton fan):
-start a war on lies
-ignore the constitution
-kill tens of thousands of Iraqis
-get 2400+ troops killed over nothing
-put the country 9 trillion dollars into debt
-fumble a national disaster
-drive gas prices to $3 a gallon
-etc.
Oh, wait, yeah, you’re right. Those things ARE hilarious…
May 17th, 2006 at 12:14 pmFirst of all – has anyone taken this issue to full task and completely forgotten all other issues?…. I don’t think so. To air the issue, even if it is of less import than other issues, does not mean that everything else has been forgotten. (Let the sarcasm commence) Take care of the pence and the pounds will take care of themselves. That is a common colloquialism as well, in common usage just like “tar babyâ€, right? “A stitch in time saves nine.†Yes, I hear that all the time these days as well. Language is static: the words have been defined and colloquialisms and alternate meanings are regional and inconsequential. My addled brainpan just can’t sift the wheat from the chafe. Language does not change, dig it, man. I mean, don’t be so heavy and bring everyone down, man. Like, mellow out. I am racked up like a douche over all this. English words and phrases mean a specific thing, and it is just a bunch of leftie lunatics hijacking the language and using it for their racist agenda – they are trying to control our language and restrict our freedom of speech. Lenny Bruce was not a less-than funny idiot (o.k., he WAS, but allow me to continue to be sarcastic here): he spoke SOOTH. It does seem queer as a two-dollar bill that people should get their panties in a bunch over a simple little phrase. So what if it had some measure of misuse by certain retarded (oh, is that not PC either?) racists? That should not invalidate the phrase. Mr. Snow was trying to be colorful in his denial of denying that a secret and potentially illegal program exists, possibly. So what if turning a colorful phrase is not entirely “the factsâ€: he is trying to pepper it up. I mean, the talking points in past denials have always been the same old tired, “can’t comment, won’t comment, etc.†They were boring. Mr. Snow was trying to show that he was really a gay man: lively and entertaining. Come to think of it, the conservative/republican movement is a gay movement: they have gay little house meetings, and gay gala fundraising events. They are the Gay Old Party (well, possibly the Gay Old Pedophiles). So, yeah, y’all – stay gay. Keep that gay attitude going, because words don’t hurt. Do not let OUR gay old language be hijacked by lefty terrorists. Stand vigilant and do not wind up like a ship on the ways. Go gay republicans! Go gay conservatives! If you are not gay, well then you need some medication: the drug companies make plenty and doctors are willing to let you self-prescribe them for yourself, so if you aren’t gay, you republican conservatives, visit the local medicine man and purchase some gay drugs.
May 17th, 2006 at 12:29 pmOh, and the hard-line Democrats are also pretty gay at their house meetings and fundraisers. They don’t have as much money, usually, so they are not quite as gay (those gay drugs cost money, you know). Yes, money CAN buy you gayness.
Gee Tony what’s next “Pickanenny”? Maybe if the “Tarbaby” doesn’t get the medias attention, you’ll have to put a “Pickanenny” on the white house lawn and they will pay attention. Maybe the “Tarbaby can stand next to the “Pickanenny” holding a sign that says, “No blacks need apply” or “Whites Only” or “No Coloreds allowed”! Then I think the water fountains should say, “Colored” or “Whites Only”.
May 17th, 2006 at 1:07 pmWith all the horrible things said and done by this misadminstration you have to get worked up over the use of “tar baby”? This really is being PC! If you ban a word from the language in any context just become some fools have tried to use it as an epithet the dictionary is going to get mighty small (e.g., colored pencil, sunshine, spic ‘n span, honky-tonk, etc.) Don’t give aid and comfort to the enemy by acting like a bunch of victim-wannabees!
May 17th, 2006 at 1:23 pm#260 Again, because one is questioning a questionable, and unusual, use of a dated phrase not in common usage and that contains a racially sensetive connotation does NOT mean that one has simply dropped the ball on all other matters. Are there bigger issues? HELL YES! But that does not mean that one ignores anything that is not “a major issue”. Really, I don’t think that anyone is all that “worked up” over it. It is just another mistake made in the name of this administration. Identifying a part of a pattern is not a bad thing, it is in fact a necessary step to determine if a pattern exists. If it is a non-issue, then why bother to post contrary opinion to the questioning of it? I think this thread is dead, anyway. People have had their say, for the most part, and have moved on. And there is language that is banned from general conversation by a general consensus: quite a bit, in fact. Language is not sterile, particularly when it comes to colloquialisms and epithets. Phrases come and go, and many that ‘go’ do so because the population collectively decides that there is a problem with the word or words (not always a racial thing, mind you).
May 17th, 2006 at 1:40 pmI personally think it’s OK to use this term innocently. I’m familiar with both meanings and it’s obvious what he meant in context. Don’t accuse someone of thoughtcrime.
May 17th, 2006 at 1:48 pm#257
Look unbelievable, I was trying to be light-hearted and amicable with you, but I guess that’s not possible. I wasn’t saying that you’re a Clinton supporter—I was pointing out that commedians make fun of presidents and politicians indescriminately.
1.Bush did not lie about the reasons we went to war, he was operating on the same intelligence that everyone else had. Besides, Saddam had been thumbing his nose at the UN resolutions for years, and something needed to be done anyway. We went in there with a coalition—remember?
2. Bush and conservatives do uphold the Constitution. It is the liberals who want to view it as some living, breathing document, that is contorted to whatever they want to make legal.
3. More people die violent deaths per 100,000 deaths in New Orleans–53.1, in Washington D.C.–45.9, in Baltimore–37.7, in Atlanta–34.9, than have died in Iraq which is 25.7 per 100,000. I don’t hear your liberal heart bleeding for any of them.
4. There were a lot of incompetant Democrat politicians that failed to do their jobs during Katrina, days before Bush and Brown got all the blame.
5. Bush did not drive up gas prices—it was the Iranian president. Every time he rattled his sabre, the futures market people would react—driving the cost of oil up per barrel.
Your slanted world view seems to be really bumming you out. Maybe you should disengage from politics for a while. Fretting about everything you hear from the media isn’t changing anything—you may as well relax and enjoy life while you can.
May 17th, 2006 at 1:51 pmYou’re kidding right? This is the same mentality that got a dude from the Tony Williams administration for using the word “niggardly.”
Clearly Snow was using the old, pre-racial-pejorative context of the term. Besides, Bush administration officials don’t use racial slurs. They only enact policy based on said slurs.
Funny, thought-policing the thought police. This kind of trivial harping is exactly why nobody with half a brain takes “Progressives” seriously.
If you can’t find anything more to complain about the Bush administration, than some old Aesop’s (or whoever’s) fable, you’re not paying attention. Get a life.
Also, in this blog’s Terms of Use (see excerpt below), is Think Progress seriously asserting a perpetual, “moral right” over the thoughts and ideas posted by bloggers? Really? A moral right?
May 17th, 2006 at 1:53 pm
#264
May 17th, 2006 at 2:01 pmWell said…your phrase “trivial harping” pretty much sums up most of the comments here, on any given subject. Trivial harping… ha! I couldn’t have said it better myself.
…and a follow up to all the comments on the benefit of the doubt reserved to the “Left” in matters of racioethnic sensitivity…
Did you ever wonder if it isn’t just a little bit racist of the nattering classes of upper-middle class, educated white people to arrogate to themselves the mantle of Defenders of the Minority.
Judging from what I’ve seen going on in cities across America in last few months, minorities — such as remain in a population rapidly reaching numerical racioethnic parity — are doing quite well on their own, thank you very much.
Finally, I just made up the word racioethnic. I can guarantee you’ll see it used in the journals of record, and in this or that academic paper within the next year.
These comments posted in accordance with Think Progress’ Terms of Use, with the exception of the following:
The poster, Neosavage, hereinafter “I,” “me,” “mine,” “my,” do:
May 17th, 2006 at 2:10 pm1. Not relinquish any rights, moral or otherwise, to the term racioethnic, hereinafter, “the term”.
2. The term remains my sole intellectual property. I invented it. It (the term) mine.
3. Think Progress and its viewers, hereinafter, “you,” “you’s,” “y’all,” have unlimited to reprint, reuse, recycle, redact, reissue, recriminate, or otherwise reiterate the term, however,
4. You must acknowledge that I invented the term, though said acknowledgement, hereinafter, “the acknowledgement,” may be made silently, internally, or morally.
5. By making the acknowledgement, you certify that I am linguistical genius, and admit to an awe and admiration of my wordsmithery.
…and a follow up to all the comments on the benefit of the doubt reserved to the “Left” in matters of racioethnic sensitivity…
Did you ever wonder if it isn’t just a little bit racist of the nattering classes of upper-middle class, educated white people to arrogate to themselves the mantle of Defenders of the Minority.
Judging from what I’ve seen going on in cities across America in last few months, minorities — such as remain in a population rapidly reaching numerical racioethnic parity — are doing quite well on their own, thank you very much.
Finally, I just made up the word racioethnic. I can guarantee you’ll see it used in the journals of record, and in this or that academic paper within the next year.
These comments posted in accordance with Think Progress’ Terms of Use, with the exception of the following:
The poster, Neosavage, hereinafter “I,” “me,” “mine,” “my,” do:
May 17th, 2006 at 2:10 pm1. Not relinquish any rights, moral or otherwise, to the term racioethnic, hereinafter, “the term”.
2. The term remains my sole intellectual property. I invented it. It (the term) mine.
3. Think Progress and its viewers, hereinafter, “you,” “you’s,” “y’all,” have unlimited to reprint, reuse, recycle, redact, reissue, recriminate, or otherwise reiterate the term, however,
4. You must acknowledge that I invented the term, though said acknowledgement, hereinafter, “the acknowledgement,” may be made silently, internally, or morally.
5. By making the acknowledgement, you certify that I am a linguistical genius, and admit to an awe and admiration of my wordsmithery.
neosavage,
I find your comments very entertaining. I still like your “trivial harping” comment though—would you mind if I borrowed it?
May 17th, 2006 at 2:24 pmwe look back to the middle ages and wonder how people could get into the witch-hunt mentality. no need to look any further than the reaction to an expression which, while it could be perceived in an offensive way, is sometimes automatically assumed to be meant in an offensive way. it isn’t a matter of the word or phrase at all, it’s your attitude toward the speaker. if it’s someone you like, you shrug it off, assume the best, or maybe even find it endearing. if it’s someone you don’t like, you assume the worst, and are ready to lynch them, just for uttering a word or phrase. case in point is the double standard applied to the use of the n-word.
another case in point, how people have had no problem with racial slurs applied to people such as clarence thomas, colin powell, condoleeza rice, and even bill cosby, just for speaking their mind or otherwise following their own conscience. it’s just a bag full of hypocrisy, and it stinks.
May 17th, 2006 at 2:38 pmThe lexicon of neosavagery is free to all, under the terms and conditions set forth in #266 and its accidental duplicate, #267.
Check me at home.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:45 pmJudging by the volume, if not the tenor, of the comments, I suspect Tony’s reference had precisely the intended effect.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:47 pmYou’ve got to be kidding… Perhaps all you complainers need to do a little more research on the original use of the phrase “tar baby.” The problem isn’t that Tony Snow use the word (correctly for the context), it’s that you of one way to use it. How niggardly of you. There are so many more important things to be concerned about. Get a life.
May 17th, 2006 at 3:58 pmIs there an echo in here?
May 17th, 2006 at 4:07 pmI can already see right through this Fox News news-reader-official-White-House-press-pundit charade.
First he uses the so-obvious-unless-you-spent-your-entire-life-living-in-a-cave slang term, that is archaic and offensive to many.
Then, he fake cries about cancer.
And what does this all do? DISTRACTS the press and public and everyone else. It saves Snow “Drama Queen” Job from actually answering the questions, or having to say anything of substance, and follow up anything, because immediately everyone is too DISTRACTED by his off-color, archaic slang, and his boo-hoo-cancer-is-bad fake crying charade.
Considering how monolithically slow the old media moves, they’ll keep falling for this, and he’ll keep doing this kind of nonsense until he’s gone. This way, the press is kept at bay while Bush runs roughshod over our country, our Constitution, our Bill of Rights, our economy, etc. while never getting to the heart of darkness that is the Bush administration.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:08 pmLook unbelievable, I was trying to be light-hearted and amicable with you, but I guess that’s not possible.
Nothing you said was any less antagonistic than usual. How was I supposed to know?
But for the record, not when it comes to graves issues such as this. If people are being killed or children tortured or animals abused, it’s off limits for humor with me.
I wasn’t saying that you’re a Clinton supporter—I was pointing out that commedians make fun of presidents and politicians indescriminately.
But Clinton was made fun of for a blowjob. Bush for ineptness and criminal behavior. Not the same.
1.Bush did not lie about the reasons we went to war, he was operating on the same intelligence that everyone else had. Besides, Saddam had been thumbing his nose at the UN resolutions for years, and something needed to be done anyway. We went in there with a coalition—remember?
If you genuinely believe this, there is NO point in discussing it. I voted for the moron the first time. But, like the adage, I didn’t get fooled twice.
2. Bush and conservatives do uphold the Constitution. It is the liberals who want to view it as some living, breathing document, that is contorted to whatever they want to make legal.
Nonsense. I don’t havetime to debate it now, but you shouldn’t have a problem finding otherw who will.
3. More people die violent deaths per 100,000 deaths in New Orleans–53.1, in Washington D.C.–45.9, in Baltimore–37.7, in Atlanta–34.9, than have died in Iraq which is 25.7 per 100,000. I don’t hear your liberal heart bleeding for any of them.
You don’t hear everything I have to say, so you clearly cannot use that logic. But I do frequently complain about our point and shoot culture. Guess your selective reading filtered that out.
4. There were a lot of incompetant Democrat politicians that failed to do their jobs during Katrina, days before Bush and Brown got all the blame.
That has nothing to do with Bush’s regime. Nothing.
5. Bush did not drive up gas prices—it was the Iranian president. Every time he rattled his sabre, the futures market people would react—driving the cost of oil up per barrel.
His illegal war on Iraq drove up gas prices. Again, not time to debate, but later…
Your slanted world view seems to be really bumming you out. Maybe you should disengage from politics for a while. Fretting about everything you hear from the media isn’t changing anything—you may as well relax and enjoy life while you can.
Comment by Antagonist — May 17, 2006 @ 1:51 pm
Stop attaching a tone to my posts that I never intended. I’m not depressed – just not an insensitive jerk who finds humor in tragedies and other people’s short comings. It’s not funny. I’m not angry about it, just sympathetic to people suffering and dying while Congress discusses illegalizing flag burning and gay marriage.
I used to be a conservative. I’ve lived on both sides of the fence. And I can tell you that I enjoy life more than most people like you even know is possible. I’d explain it, but know it would just be a waste of my breath, because your side cares more about being right than being human. I know, I lived it.
Well, gotta run. Off to the theatre to see ‘Wicked’. Most fitting after today’s news…
May 17th, 2006 at 4:11 pm“Tar Baby” and “Hug the Tar Baby” are mutually exclusive. The term about hugging a tar baby, no matter that it is from an Uncle Remus story, has exactly one defintion and it si totally absent of any racial inference. To compare the two is as nonsensical as finding a racial element from a black speaker who uses the phrase, “eating crackers in bed.”
The fact that this is being discussed is truly ludicrous.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:29 pm#276: Excellent cracker analogy, Terrence. Although I wouldn’t be surprised if, in the next 10 minutes, you get a called a racist by someone who misinterprets your comments as a negative comment on interracial relationships.
As for the inordinate amount of discussion on this topic…as for me, I’m simply bored and too lazy to find something productive to do.
Did y’all get that last line? What I was saying was, I have time for this becase I’m a “progressive” white male. God, I loathe me.
May 17th, 2006 at 4:40 pmI guess Snow will really be the black sheep around all the clowns that are constantly looking to be offended. Deeply offended. But after all, Snow is a well known code word for ‘white’, so what else could we expect from him?
May 17th, 2006 at 5:02 pm[...] from Think Progress: SNOW: Having said that, I don’t want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program, the alleged program, the existence of which I can neither confirm nor deny. [...]
May 17th, 2006 at 5:24 pmHe may not want to hug a tar-baby, but he’ll sure kiss a lot of Bush/Republican ass. Sorry, a Republican-trash low-life that emerges from Fox News cannot be taken seriously.
May 17th, 2006 at 5:47 pmI’m ashamed of the vast majority of the posters on this blog. Only a complete moron would find insult in the phrase “I don’t want to hug the tar baby”. Yeah, that’s right, I’m calling you out, you ill-educated bunch of cretins. Racist? You’re clueless. Should everyone talk down to your level? Do you require some sort of “Politically Correct” wrapper for every thought and utterance? You do yourself a severe disservice when you jump like this, and you call attention to things that are ugly and demeaning about yourself. I weep for you. Now, get a life.
May 17th, 2006 at 5:47 pm.. and you ain’t just whistlin dixie!
May 17th, 2006 at 5:50 pmHey I weep for you all have you ever asked yourself the question what you would be saying if Clinton would have used the same phrase? I didn’t think so
May 17th, 2006 at 8:37 pmI like Terrence’s example too. The context makes it obvious he means the fable rather than an epithet.
I’ll add another example: “There’s a chink in your argument.”
If I’m speaking to someone who is quite willing and ready to be offended, they will of course say that I “obviously meant” a slur about people of Chinese descent…
Clif: You sir are a moron, and I am vehemently anti-Bush. But hey, you’re an internet troll, so why am I bothering?
May 17th, 2006 at 8:38 pmCan’t we all just…oh, yeah, right…
May 17th, 2006 at 8:44 pmIve never been a white house press reporter but if I would have used the term tarbaby;
May 17th, 2006 at 8:44 pmwhen i was in the army i would have been fragged
when I was a medic I would have been beatup in the ER
when I was a factory worker i would have been thrown into the machines
where I currently work in the health dept I would be sent to human resourses for some sensitivity training-
Which USA does Snowconehead live in that he is so suprised???
The answer is no answer!! If you don’t like snow flake he is a racist. If you think he is o.k he meant a sticky situation. I think he is a die hard rethug and a Regan loving fool but, still think he meant “sticky”. However being a white cracker he didn’t see the dark side of that. He is from the “let them eat cake ” crowd.
May 17th, 2006 at 10:00 pmOh please. As if there are not enough real issues. Snowjob obviously meant sticky situation and those of you trying to paint this as racism are really reaching. Also, the story of the tar baby was created to illustrate a situation which repeats itself throughout history (Iraq, anyone?) and serves its purpose well. For those of you with too much time on your hands (of whom there are apparently many) perhaps you’d best spend some of that time coming up with a sanitized version (rubber-cement baby? superglue baby? post-it note baby?) and forwarding it to those it might bring a shred of understanding to (GWB, anyone?) This is a tempest in a teapot (oops did I just offend the English.) And, Zookeper (#51), “cracker” is a racist slur and I’ll thank you to take it back.
May 17th, 2006 at 11:31 pmThis kind of nitpicking lunacy is why I often feel ashamed to ‘claim’ my fellow liberals.
Being a literate person, I knew of the classical reference ‘hug the tar baby’ – and have NEVER heard of ‘tar baby’ used to denigrate anyone, let alone blacks. The phrase was a perfect choice for the context and meaning intended. Presumably some of you are also fans of changing ‘baa baa black sheep’ to ‘baa baa rainbow sheep’? So much for many on the left being ‘better-educated’ – or even, apparently, decently sophisticated.
The idea that Snow was ’slyly casting himself as Brer Rabbit’ as some kind of convoluted message to the press is asinine and smacks of paranoid microanalysis. In addition, Snow was obviously genuinely crying and upset – you could see real pain and anguish in his eyes. Have you watched so much television that you can’t even discern honest emotion anymore? Shame on you for your obtuse, gleeful cruelty.
Please grow up and stop acting like whining idiots before you blow another election for us – thanks so much.
May 18th, 2006 at 1:35 amwell, though I agree that this to make much of this is true nit-pickery…..
Snow is a lying, racistm, neocon, faux christian jackass.
I’m not suprised by what he said, or by peoples’ reaction to what he said. Based on his history I can understand, but in the end, it’s totally whining and should be squelched in the name of progress. Are we really progressive people if we still let mere words get our ire? We’ve got plenty of other things to be riled up about.
BTW- hope all you assholes are organ donors. http://organdonor.gov/ Something we can all agree on eh?
Jack
May 18th, 2006 at 1:52 amElimination process:
May 18th, 2006 at 2:55 amSnow is a very smart guy. He has written a lot of detailed stories and his writings are as intriguing as that of a very educated person that knows the English language A to Z you name it….He has pretty good ideas about the use of THAT phrase. He did it on purpose. The difference is that some jobs do not require thinking beyond your shadow(s). Usually people with limited common sense end up doing stupid stuff. It’s one thing getting an A in Math test and getting an A in Common Sense. Too much excitement is not good, coupled with the president praising you, because you wanna live up to your toughness. The best approach is just to be your very best self. Don’t get driven by external forces. Being pompous does not help.
[...] I got an email from an acquaintance and Word Nerds listener yesterday, alerting me to a flap created by the brand new White House press secretary, Tony Snow. A Google News search lists a report in the ThinkProgress.org blog as the first reporter of this unfortunate gaff. [...]
May 18th, 2006 at 5:53 amWhat a sophisticate. Can’t wait to hear what he comes up with next.
May 18th, 2006 at 8:02 amAll kinds of references here in the comments on other threads referring to white people as ‘crackers,’ and that, apparently, is acceptable. However, if the words ‘tar baby’ are used by someone who is not in their clique, that’s assailable.
Stupid nitwit hypocrites who want to think they are progressives and liberals here need to wake up.
May 18th, 2006 at 9:06 amAs I recall there was much discussion as Bush rushed into invading Afganistan and made jokes about about not spending a million dollars to blow up a tent (while now he is spending a million or so on each grain of sand), there was a discussion that Clinton was smart enough to stand off and shoot the tarbaby, while Bush wanted to jump in with both feet.
I think that perhaps it is the not wanting to hug a tarbaby as opposed to shooting or jumping that is the problem some folk see. In any case it is too late, Snowjob hugged that tarbaby when he took the career move to Fox TV and just got in further when he moved up the BS chain.
May 18th, 2006 at 9:08 am[...] In looking into the whole “hug the tar baby†thing, I find citations of Tony Snow using the phrase as far back as 1999. It seems it’s a pet phrase of his. [...]
May 18th, 2006 at 9:23 amI motion that this absurdity comes to a close now. If people pass the 300 mark on such an innacuous statement than we are just a bunch of clueless children.
Additionally, I would like to propose these few suggestions:
1.) It is “President Bush”, show some respect, and when you debate or point out the failings in his ideas, proposals, and initiatives (and there are many) – point them out with intelligence (i.e. if you think there is a Texas mafia of oil bigs who started this war, or if you think 9-11 was in any way a US or Israeli conspiracy than you have barely have a right to breath, but nothing else.
2.) WHen attacking Fox News, give concrete examples of conservative bias (O’Reilly and Hannity are allowed to be subjective – it’s an opinion show)! There are plenty of examples of immature, innacurate, and biased converage in the news delivered on Fox – know what you are talking about! Better yet, start a website, like http://www.Timeswatch.com, which uncovers NYTimes biases (as someone in the know, the NY Times alderman reads that site every day)
3.) Liberals and Democrats are patriotic and do NOT support terrorists, to continue using that mantra is ignorant and immature! Yes, there are extreme examples of anti-AMericanism from the Left (Sonntag, Vidal, Chomsky) — but calling everyone a name is to be a McCarthyite.
4.) Does anyone have any fresh ideas that are not cut and pasted from the DNC or RNC?
5.) This is a great nation, politicians are not the bad guys, President Bush is OUR president, show all these institutions the highrest respect while you specifically address your grievances — it’s OK to love your country when you think it’s on the wrong track, it’s OK, ney, it is imperitive to address the man in office as The President or President Bush ONLY while you point by point shred his particulate arguments for the war in Iraq, immigration, spending, etc. Are there no more Ladies and Gentleman left in this country? Take a stand, defend it, articulate it, petition those in power, but for the love of God do it with respect of your fellow man and your country!
May 18th, 2006 at 11:08 amWell said, Terrance.
The problem is that, like most victims of contemporary education, modern, self-identifying “Progressives” and “Liberals” lack any sort of training in logic and argumentation. The same is true, of course, of today’s “Conservatives,” who are truly anything but.
At issue is a public mindspace completely controlled by jabbering extremists, unable to formulate any meaningful position on policy or events, and so resort to simple, us versus them heuristics.
I love that you referenced Sontag. Everytime time I read her work, I want to vomit in rage at the utter vapidness of her arguments, dressed as they are in a gown of obtuse language.
But guess what? The people pulling the strings, running for office, managing the debate — the Bushes and Kennedys and Clintons and Frists — they’re really not Conservative or Liberal, Right or Left. They’re Power. Capital P. And their goals are the same: to erode Liberty and convert the American people into modern-day serfs.
You roll your eyes, but look: the facts are clear. What issues (apart from the war) dominate the public debate?
Immigration
Abortion
Domestic Spying
Gun Rights
Just to name a few. These are emotional issues. The reflect individual’s deepest beliefs and values. And they happen to split about 50/50 down the population. So what happens?
“They” keep getting elected, and “we” lose right after right.
But hey, let’s all argue about Tar Babies.
May 18th, 2006 at 12:31 pmPlease please please, some tolerance here… just because some cracker doesn’t want to hug a tar baby, doesn’t mean he’s a bigot. He also doesn’t want to jew down the isralies, you wouldn’t call that antisemitic— unless of course he DID want to jew down the isralies. I don’t see Colendeeza getting upset about this… if she did, I expect the president would be all over her, like white on rice. Any PR guy named Snow must be pretty sensitive about political correctness, we wouldn’t want his new WH name to be Yellow Snow. PLEASE SEND DAVID LETTERMAN YOUR TOP 10 WHITEHOUSE NAMES FOR SNOW.
May 18th, 2006 at 1:31 pmReply to posts #200 – 204: LW shared several references with people using ‘tar baby.’ First, nobody claimed that bigots and the unenlightened are limited to only the GOP. People in all areas use speech that is often insensitive to some group; and sometimes they hear feedback about it (like this thread). My point: too often people reject the feedback without listening to consider the feedback. There’s a balance between free speech and freely insulting others (intentional or not).
At one time or another, I’ll bet that everyone on this list has said something that was insulting. None of us are perfect. Like you, I am careful with the words I use. For example, I no longer use the phrase, “… complicated as a Chinese menu” or the phrase “… that was a like a Chinese firedrill” or the phrase “… that’s Murphy’s Law” or the phrase “… here comes the paddy wagon.” All 4 seem innocent enough at first, until one considers the subtext and assumptions. Obviously, a menu doesn’t have to Chinese to be unreadable or confusing. Same for a poorly designed fire crew. And everything which goes wrong or gets arrested shouldn’t have an Irish reference.
Bottomline: I expect a lot more from the press secrtetary of the POTUS. I think that it is always wise to consider one’s audience. If one is speaking amongst close friends, then using ‘tar baby’ is probably okay. You know them and they know you.
But it is always a risk to use a phrase that has several meanings… and ‘Tar Baby’ is such a phrase. Snow probably did not mean any disrespect by using it. The bottomline: he is a public official doing a job in a public forum (paid for by my tax dollars). That means a variety of people (both in the US and around the world) will hear and read his words. Hence, as a spokesperson — who is skilled with using the English language — it is wise to use words that convey the meaning *and* which aren’t susceptible to another meaning.
I wouldn’t assume that everyone has read Brer Rabbit. And I think it is a fair assumption that not everyone (in or outside the USA) is familiar with or has read Brer Rabbit (or had it read to them as a child). For example, many immigrants would not have a clue as to what Snow was talking about.
As a taxpayer, I expect far better from the press secretary of POTUS. Clearly, Snow wanted to avoid getting “trapped” by the reporter’s question into denying something and thereby reinforcing the existence of the item. A simple “no comment” by Snow would have sufficed. There are so many other words he could have used. It was really unnecessary; he really didn’t HAVE to use a phrase that is non-offensive to some Americans and offensive to other Americans. Simply, there are so many other words and phrases available in the English language which he could have used.
Neosavage in #296 listed several issues being discussed in the media. While people’s positions on the issues may be ‘emotional,’ the impact on people lives often goes far beyond emotions. For many there are safety, financial, and physical impacts. IMHO, this is why you see some people who love our POTUS and others who dispise him greatly. Everyone is entitled to their opinions and we’ll settle some of this in November.
One issue I’d like to see the media (either left- or right-leaning) cover is the reported lost or missing 200,000 AK-47 rifles. That’s 4 planeloads of assault rifles missing and possibly/probably in insurgents’ hands. If true, that is no way to conduct a war, liberation, fighting terorism, or whatever one wants to call it.
Last, ‘chimpy mcflightsuit’ did sound kinda nice. I’m inclined to show POTUS more respect when he does the same for us citizens and the Constitution. The NSA/phone debacle would be a good start. Removing the incompetence in FEMA and replacing it with effective management would be a good start. Tackling the federal deficit would be a start. When I hear POTUS claiming that our economy is strong but he has ballooned the federal deficits through the roof — is just insulting to me. Deficits matter.
May 18th, 2006 at 1:59 pmDear Antagonist – Thank you for taking the time and energy to refute the ignorance spewed about pre-war intelligence, gas prices, the Constitution. You have more patience than I do.
May 18th, 2006 at 2:38 pmIs Snow bigoted? The Diversity Inc. web site reported this quote from Snow:
In 2003, on FOX News Sunday, Snow had this to say about racism: “Here’s the unmentionable secret. Racism isn’t that big a deal anymore. No sensible person supports it. Nobody of importance preaches it.”
Hmmmmm. The folks at tolerance.org and at splcenter.org would disagree as they track hate groups — both on the Web and in the physical world. If you do a google search you’ll find several references to Snow’s quote, including this one:
http://releases.usnewswire.com/GetRelease.asp?id=64618
And this one:
http://www.rawstory.com/news/2006/Snow_Racism_no_longer_a_big_0426.html
A wise person once said, “If you sell a Republican enough rope, he’ll hang himself.” It seems to me that Snow seems to be doing just that.
It seems to me that several Bush Amdinistration officials did just that with Plamegate.
Heck of a job, Snowie!
May 18th, 2006 at 3:09 pmDamn it! I wanted to be #300. I’m taking my toys and leaving.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:09 pmWhat PC lunacy this entire thread represents. The “Tar Baby” is one of a Joel Chandler Harris’ children’s story about B’rer Rabbit fooling the stupid B’rer Bear. It has NOTHING to do with Negroes or racism, except in the imagination of the twisted minds of PC “Liberals.”
No wonder people laugh at your illiterate dimwittedness. Pathetic.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:18 pmHillbilly please! Let’s call a spade a spade, Brer Faux can snow some of the people sometime. If we could only be a fly on the wall at his last job… I’ll bet the language was damn colorful!
May 18th, 2006 at 5:30 pmWow, I’ve read 300 some comments and I still don’t have a clue why this is a racist term. Someone (189) suggested that anyone who doesn’t get why this is racist needs a remedial english lesson. Guilty. Could someone give me a lesson? Can someone use this phrase in a sentence or provide a link to something considered racist where this term is used. Someone posted the defintion of “tar & feather”. Yes, I know what that is, and, um, so what? Lot’s of people were tarred and feathered. I’ve never heard of a baby being tarred and feathered though. Is it because tar is black? Are black people being equated to “babys” (ala Porch Monkey)? I honestly don’t get it and just want to understand. I’ve heard/read the term “tar baby” throughout my life and have never understood it to have anything to do with racisim. Obviously, I’ve simply missed this connotation. So, what, exactly does it mean? Sorry to be so dense.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:58 pmCampaign for progressive legislation forum http://tinyurl.com/lyqwm
May 18th, 2006 at 8:58 pmThat’s why I LOVE America! We keep things Spi!cy. You guy’s comments are hilarious. Racial slur or not, the fact that it offended some of the people who pay his check is where it hits home. I wish I c!ould stop paying taxes based on my distain for the people who I dislike in office, but I can not. The only thing I can do is complain like most of us here. Should Snow lose his job, of course not, but how would white people feel if Condoleezza Rice used the comment “Pigs in a Blanket” to refer to a bunch of content politicians in the same room…and they happen to be all white. How about Colin Powel using the term “Pecker wooding” innocently to describe an overbearing leader tryin’ to put the pressure on….whom happen to be white. It’s a responsibility issue.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:51 pmPerhaps Tony Snow needs to listen to Sade’s “Tar Baby” to have a better understanding of the term.
May 18th, 2006 at 11:13 pmCongresswoman Diane E. Watson (Democrat, CA 33rd District): “The Bush administration now faces the danger of adopting by default a so-called “tar baby†option, where the more the US tries to disengage itself from Iraq”
Rep. John M. Spratt Jr. (Democrat, SC 5th District): “People are wondering how much this will cost in money and lives and how are we gonna get out of there? I had one teacher say, ‘We’ve got a tar baby on our hands.’”
May 19th, 2006 at 12:41 am“Doin’ a heck of a job, Snowy.”
May 19th, 2006 at 2:11 amI guess I might as well piss in the pool too…forgive me for such a long stream…
So I Google/Image the term Brer Rabbit just to see what comes up. After sifting thru some pix of a pretty innocent looking rabbit and what not I come to a pic of the much talked about Tar Baby that was referenced and that we’re all making such a fuss over. Damn if the thing don’t resemble other derogatory images of white people in “black face” that my parents used to britsle over. Didn’t they used to get painted up in black face to mock black people? How could any of this be hurtful to anyone?
So I checked out some of the actual story. Not the cliff notes “general gist of the story” that most of the posters are referring to, but stuff from the actual story (pinched from barfly’s post #122):
“Brer Rabbit keep on axin’ ‘im, en de Tar-Baby, she keep on sayin’ nothin’, twel present’y Brer Rabbit draw back wid his fis’, he did, en blip he tuck ‘er side er de head. Right dar’s whar he broke his merlasses jug. His fis’ stuck, en he can’t pull loose. De tar hilt ‘im. But Tar-Baby, she stay still, en Brer Fox, he lay low.
Didn’t they try to package this stuff up a few years ago and sell it back to us as Ebonics? Our very own language! Our heritage, no less! Thanks for looking out for us. And OBTW, even if we have multiple degrees and are talented beyond sports and entertainment, the only compliments you need to use for us is that we’re “articulate” and “well spoken”. *damn sticky sarcasm button*
Unfortunately for all sides, trying to explain a position that the other side has no possible frame of reference to understand is beyond difficult. There’s no way to explain why I’m offended when people assume that I play basketball because I’m tall, or that if I turn on a radio it’ll be automatically playing rap or “soul music”. Forgive me for straying off topic…
For the 15% who will understand what I’m getting at, thank you for your attention. For the others who will never understand what I’m getting at, I only wish that for a day I can wear your veil and see it thru your eyes.
May 19th, 2006 at 4:17 amBrer Rabbit and the Tar Baby
One day Brer Fox thought of how Brer Rabbit had been cutting up his capers and bouncing around until he’d come to believe that he was the boss of the whole gang. Brer Fox thought of a way to lay some bait for that uppity Brer Rabbit.
He went to work and got some tar and mixed it with some turpentine. He fixed up a contraption that he called a Tar-Baby. When he finished making her, he put a straw hat on her head and sat the little thing in the middle of the road. Brer Fox, he lay off in the bushes to see what would happen.
Well, he didn’t have to wait long either, ’cause by and by Brer Rabbit came pacing down the road–lippity-clippity, clippity-lippity–just as sassy as a jaybird. Brer Fox, he lay low. Brer Rabbit came prancing along until he saw the Tar-Baby and then he sat back on his hind legs like he was astonished. The Tar-Baby just sat there, she did, and Brer Fox, he lay low.
“Good morning!” says Brer Rabbit, says he. “Nice weather we’re having this morning,” says he.
Tar-Baby didn’t say a word, and Brer Fox, he lay low.
“How are you feeling this morning?” says Brer Rabbit, says he.
Brer Fox, he winked his eye real slow and lay low and the Tar-Baby didn’t say a thing.
“What is the matter with you then? Are you deaf?” says Brer Rabbit, says he. “Cause if you are, I can holler louder,” says he.
The Tar-Baby stayed still and Brer Fox, he lay low.
“You’re stuck-up, that’s what’s wrong with you. You think you’re too good to talk to me,” says Brer Rabbit, says he. “And I’m going to cure you, that’s what I’m going to do,” says he.
Brer Fox started to chuckle in his stomach, he did, but Tar-Baby didn’t say a word.
“I’m going to teach you how to talk to respectable folks if it’s my last act,” says Brer Rabbit, says he. “If you don’t take off that hat and say howdy, I’m going to bust you wide open,” says he.
Tar-Baby stayed still and Brer Fox, he lay low.
Brer Rabbit kept on asking her why she wouldn’t talk and the Tar-Baby kept on saying nothing until Brer Rabbit finally drew back his fist, he did, and blip–he hit the Tar-Baby on the jaw. But his fist stuck and he couldn’t pull it loose. The tar held him. But Tar-Baby, she stayed still, and Brer Fox, he lay low.
“If you don’t let me loose, I’m going to hit you again,” says Brer Rabbit, says he, and with that he drew back his other fist and blap–he hit the Tar-Baby with the other hand and that one stuck fast too.
Tar-Baby she stayed still, and Brer Fox, he lay low.
“Turn me loose, before I kick the natural stuffing out of you,” says Brer Rabbit, says he, but the Tar-Baby just sat there.
She just held on and then Brer Rabbit jumped her with both his feet. Brer Fox, he lay low. Then Brer Rabbit yelled out that if that Tar-Baby didn’t turn him loose, he was going to butt her crank-sided. Then he butted her and his head got stuck.
Brer Box walked out from behind the bushes and strolled over to Brer Rabbit, looking as innocent as a mockingbird.
“Howdy, Brer Rabbit,” says Brer Fox, says he. “You look sort of stuck up this morning,” says he. And he rolled on the ground and laughed and laughed until he couldn’t laugh anymore.
By and by he said, “Well, I expect I got you this time, Brer Rabbit,” says he. “Maybe I don’t, but I expect I do. You’ve been around here sassing after me a mighty long time, but now it’s the end.
And then you’re always getting into something that’s none of your business,” says Brer Fox, says he. “Who asked you to come and strike up a conversation with this Tar-Baby? And who stuck you up the way you are? Nobody in the round world. You just jammed yourself into that Tar-Baby without waiting for an invitation,” says Brer Fox, says he. “There you are and there you’ll stay until I fix up a brushpile and fire it up, “cause I’m going to barbecue you today, for sure,” says Brer Fox, says he.
Then Brer Rabbit started talking mighty humble.
“I don’t care what you do with me, Brer Fox, says he, “Just so you don’t fling me in that briar patch. Roast me, Brer Fox, says he, “But don’t fling me in that briar patch.”
“It’s so much trouble to kindle a fire,” says Brer Fox, says he, “that I expect I’d better hang you,” says he.
“Hang me just as high as you please, Brer Fox, says Brer Rabbit, says he, “but for the Lord’s sake, don’t fling me in that briar patch,” says he.
“I don’t have any string, ” says Brer Fox, says he, “Now I expect I had better drown you, ” says he.
“Drown me just as deep as you please, Brer Fox,” says Brer Rabbit, says he, “But please do not fling me in that briar patch, ” says he.
“There’s no water near here,” says Brer Fox, says he, “And now I reckon I’d better skin you,” says he.
“Skin me Brer Fox,” says he. “Snatch out my eyeballs, tear out my ears by the roots,” says he, “But please, Brer Fox, don’t fling me in that briar patch, ” says he.
Of course, Brer Fox wanted to get Brer Rabbit as bad as he could, so he caught him by the behind legs and slung him right in the middle of the briar patch. There was a considerable flutter when Brer Rabbit struck the bushes, and Brer Fox hung around to see what was going to happen.
By and by he heard someone call his name and ‘way up on the hill he saw Brer Rabbit sitting cross-legged on a chinquapin log combing the tar pitch out of his hair with a chip. Then Brer Fox knew he had been tricked.
Brer Rabbit hollered out, “Born and bred in the briar patch. I was born and bred in the briar patch!” And with that he skipped out just as lively as a cricket in the embers of a fire.
May 19th, 2006 at 8:41 amI am still insisting this:
Elimination process:
May 19th, 2006 at 3:08 pmSnow is a very smart guy. He has written a lot of detailed stories and his writings are as intriguing as that of a very educated person that knows the English language A to Z you name it….He has pretty good ideas about the use of THAT phrase. He did it on purpose. The difference is that some jobs do not require thinking beyond your shadow(s). Usually people with limited common sense end up doing stupid stuff. It’s one thing getting an A in Math test and getting an A in Common Sense. Too much excitement is not good, coupled with the president praising you, because you wanna live up to your toughness. The best approach is just to be your very best self. Don’t get driven by external forces. Being pompous does not help.
I am still insisting this:
Elimination process:
Snow is a very smart guy. He has written a lot of detailed stories and his writings are as intriguing as that of a very educated person that knows the English language A to Z you name it….He has pretty good ideas about the use of THAT phrase. He did it on purpose. The difference is that some jobs do not require thinking beyond your shadow(s). Usually people with limited common sense end up doing stupid stuff. It’s one thing getting an A in Math test and getting an A in Common Sense. Too much excitement is not good, coupled with the president praising you, because you wanna live up to your toughness. The best approach is just to be your very best self. Don’t get driven by external forces. Being pompous does not help.
May 19th, 2006 at 3:08 pm
[...] From the PC police, who are apparently functionally illiterate. No citation. You just have to read it for yourself. Make sure you’re eating or drinking nothing, lest you spew all over your monitor. [...]
May 19th, 2006 at 5:30 pmThis could be one of those instances where a persons first reaction to a comment like this might say more about that person than the person who made the statement. If someone used the term “caught you red handed”, would you think they were talking about a chinese person or native american? It might be the case that people who’s first reaction was to equate a tar baby with an african american are the real racists.
May 20th, 2006 at 11:27 am[...] Think Progress offers up a little advice for the new Press Secretary. Now that you are no longer at Fox News, you may want to take them up on their advice. [...]
May 20th, 2006 at 1:40 pmThis whole entry, and all of these posts, are glaring examples of one of the biggest problems with America and the West today: white guilt. You all feel guilt and shame about things that occurred before you were born, and, by an overwhelming majority, do not anymore.
May 20th, 2006 at 8:53 pmWell, I don’t. I was born in the 1980’s, my family is interracial by marriage, I know I have never judged anyone on their race (how f’ing lame), and know that people in this country succeed or fail based on their effort and ability- see it all the time. So, there’s NO WAY I’m going to feel bad about something I didn’t do, hell, I have enough crap I have done to feel bad about, I’m not going to take on other people’s B.S. So, have fun squirming with unecessary guilt, just try to imagine what it feels like to be like me, able to live free of the nonsense- it’s great!
New book out you should read: White Guilt by Shelby Steele, brilliant man, brilliant book.
Tony Snow is a great American, seeking to use his terms to create racial dispair is disgusting. One can assume that Mr. Snow in his present position will provide many opportunities to bring the democratic despair upon him, the sad attempt of the media to create a situation that is not present is an example of why most Americans have no respect for any media. It would encourage more Americans to read the newspaper if the papers were not so slanted, and brought forth all the truth instead of what they want you to read.
May 21st, 2006 at 12:05 amwhy waste time on a salamander’s mischievous misfortune? So many things to worry about.
May 21st, 2006 at 3:10 amPerhaps the term had an original, non-racist meaning, but you can’t deny that it developed into a derogatory word. If you are ignorant of that fact, fine, but you can’t simply dispel someone’s concern over its use, because they need to “grow up.” You grow up, and recognize that there’s more than just you on this earth.
You’d think Snow would know better by now, especially in an area where you have to be so careful and deliberate about what you say. He wasn’t born yesterday.
I’m not asking for his head, just some forethought.
May 21st, 2006 at 10:52 amWell I’ve lived on both US coasts, and in the midwest, and in East Africa, during my 70 years, and I’ve never heard “tar baby” used in any other context than the one stemming from Joel Chandler Harris’ “Uncle Remus” story. I had to consult the Random House website to learn that it is “occasionally used as a derogatory term for black people . . . . and among blacks as a term for a particularly dark-skinned person.” So call me (and Tony Snow) naive, if you wish. But I feel sorry for those who are so educationally handicapped (or politically motivated) that they can’t recognize Snow’s true meaning from the context of his comments. And for those bloggers who insist on connecting an old issue with this one: yes, I would use the term “niggardly” in a room full of black people, if the term was appropriate to my comments. Why? Because I would expect that people raised with English as their first language would, especially by now, know what niggardly means, and that it has absolutely nothing whatever to do with that obnoxious “N” word that sounds something like it. Perhaps we should accuse our black weatherman of insensitivity when he predicts that “snowflakes” will make life difficult for motorists.
May 21st, 2006 at 12:13 pmI think what bothers me most is that I haven’t seen any mention of this insensitive remark on the cable news channels. Amazing! Maybe he is being protected by his ex-colleagues?? Or maybe I missed the coverage which is hard for an African American news junkee like me. But being a child of the sixties I was stunned to hear this comment live on CSPAN because I remember my siblings and I being called tar babies in the predominantly white private elementary school we attended. I asked myself, “Did he just say what I thought he said?”
May 21st, 2006 at 9:45 pmYou dumb liberal idiots! You can try, all you want, to make Snow out as a racist, but you are just making yourselves look like the fools that you are, and only ingnorant liberal idiots will believe and follow you like sheep (power to the sheeple). Snow is definitely NOT a racist, and the “tar baby” comment is definitely NOT a racist comment. Wise up, you morons!
May 22nd, 2006 at 9:38 amIn comment 322, Dee says that he was called a “tar baby” when he was in elementary school. While I sympathize with him, because some racist morons misused that term in an offensive way, that still doesn’t mean that Snow was making a racist comment. Lots of terms have been misused in offensive ways, against blacks, but that doesn’t mean that each of those terms should now be retired from use, because some moron used it offensively. If you actually read the story of Brer Rabbit, and understand the moral of the story, you will see that in the proper context (i.e. the context used by Tony Snow), calling a situation a “tar baby” means that it is a sticky situation in which the more you try to get out of it, the more stuck you become, and it has absolutely nothing to do with black people. People need to take their blinders of paranoia off and realize that people are really not out to get you. Just read the story of Brer Rabbit, and go over the transcript, where Snow makes this statement, and you will see that there is absolutely nothing racist in what he said.
May 22nd, 2006 at 10:30 amI’m black, and grew up hearing the story of Brer Rabbit and the Tar Baby…a folk tale in which the feisty rabbit is tricked and gets stuck in the tar. In this instance, I don’t think Snow is culpable. Granted, it was the wrong choice of Snow to use a term like that, but sometimes ignorant people don’t know how to self-censor. Here’s a link to the folk tale:
May 22nd, 2006 at 4:01 pmhttp://www.americanfolklore.net/folktales/ga2.html
When a parrot says “Polly want a cracker,” is it racist? Maybe it wants a white boy.
If I say I was on vacation and saw a water buffalo, am I a biggot?
Give me a break. This is ridiculous.
I really dislike this administration, but just because someone knows a different word usage from yourself, you can’t condemn him. Show some understanding. He’s a white boy and probably never heard the term used racially before. Personally, I’ve never heard the term used racially – and I’m a 30 year old college educated international businessman.
I hate what the republicans have done to our country, but the complete lack of perspective of idiots like those posting here is really disheartening.
May 22nd, 2006 at 7:30 pm[...] Think Progress Memorandum To Tony Snow On The Use Of The Term Memorandum To Tony Snow On The Use Of The Term Tar Baby Date: May 16, 2006. To: White House Press Secretary Tony Snow. From: ThinkProgress.org [...]
May 25th, 2006 at 5:52 amI’ve never heard the term “tar baby” in ANY context. When I saw a clip on the Daily Show, I googled it. Get a life everyone. As anti-Bush as I am, this isn’t a big deal.
June 2nd, 2006 at 2:17 pm[...] Then there were Snow’s head-scratching comparison of the gay marriage ban to the civil rights struggle (compounded by his inability to define civil rights) and his unfortunate use of “tar baby†imagery to deflect questions on NSA surveillance programs. [...]
June 19th, 2006 at 9:13 pm[...] Think Progress points this out: Based on the context of the term, we believe you meant tar baby to mean: “a situation almost impossible to get out of; a problem virtually unsolvable.” [...]
July 2nd, 2006 at 2:03 pmWow, just …..wow. You people are nuts. I also never heard this used in a racial manner. I knew if from Brer Rabbit. I had no idea Brer Rabbit was also supposed to be a slur. God forbid he use the word “niggardly” in a speach. Your heads would blow off.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:25 pm[...] Video-WMP Video-QT (rough transcript) CBS REPORTER: Why not declassify [the NSA’s call records database]? I mean, the President did talk about the surveillance program a day after the New York Times broke that story. This would seem to affect far more people and it did sound like the President was confirming that story today when he was answering questions. SNOW: If you go back and look through what he said, there was a reference of foreign to domestic calls. I am not going to stand up here and presume to declassify any kind of program. That is a decision the President has to make. I can’t confirm or deny it. The President was not confirming or denying. Again, I would take you back to the USA Today story to give you a little context. Look at the poll that appeared the following day […] something like 65% of the public was not troubled by it. Having said that, I don’t want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program… the alleged program, the existence of which I can neither confirm or deny. I asked Judd at Think Progress about it and he agreed. TP then explains to Tony the problem with using that term: Based on the context of the term, we believe you meant tar baby to mean: "a situation almost impossible to get out of; a problem virtually unsolvable." But in "American lore," the expression tar baby is also a racial slur "used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people." Use of the term has resulted in people being fired. [...]
July 25th, 2006 at 2:27 amBut we call our Children KIDS (baby goats), some cookies CRACKERS, Homosexuals are now Gay, Blacks can use the “N” word,
July 31st, 2006 at 9:35 amI guess if you control the meaning of words you have control over the rest of us who are not as smart and “progressiveâ€?
“But in “American lore,†the expression tar baby is also a racial slur “used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people”
Uh, the it should be VERY easy to produce such evidence. But one problem… there is no such evidence.
July 31st, 2006 at 12:22 pmMy discussion of this subject will be niggardly.
If an atheist is offended by my use of the term “in Jesus Name” must I not use it?
If a Racist is offended by my use of the Term “equal opportunity” must I not use it?
If a Muslim is offended by my use of the term “Mohammed, the pedofile prophet”, must I not use it?
If a Jew is offended by a Muslim’s use of of the term “Decendents of apes” is he forbidden to use that term?
I should be obvious that the use by Tony Snow of the Tarbaby term refers to the Brer Rabbit story. It is a common enough story, Disney made millions off it (though will not rerelease “Song of the South” now).
That a racist subminority once used a term as a derogatory does not poison the wonderfully descriptive term. Rather the people who would reject a wonderful story from our common black/african heritage are revealing their Racism.
Projection. It has a cure: Honesty.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:42 pmThe Boston Globe has used the term in at least two editorials, reports the Boston Herald’s Victoria Buckingham: ” In a 1994 editorial, the Globe described U.S. dealings with Iran as resembling a ‘tar baby’ and even articulated the term’s assumed meaning in a 1998 editorial on China’s censoring of the Internet: ‘The Communist rulers of Beijing ended last year tangling with a tar baby. The tar baby–passive, sticky and invincible–was played by the Internet, which the leaders want to censor.’ ” (The Herald also referred to the Big Dig as a “tar baby” in a 2004 editorial.)
Ditzy left-wing columnist Molly Ivins wrote in October 2001, “It now looks, with 20-20 hindsight, as though he should have taken a few more deep breaths before smacking that tar-baby that is Afghanistan.”
In a 2003 interview with the Boston Globe, John Kerry described 1992 hearings on missing soldiers in Vietnam as a political “tar baby.”
This past May, White House press secretary Tony Snow said of a program to monitor terrorist communication, “I don’t want to hug the tar baby of trying to comment on the program–the alleged program–the existence of which I can neither confirm nor deny.
The athletic teams at California’s Compton High School are called the Tarbabes. (The population of Compton is more than 40% black.)
August 2nd, 2006 at 8:38 pm[...] When Condi’s all buttoned up in red, you know she means business. Watch out Helen Thomas–Condi doesnt suffer any fools and won’t hug the tar baby. [...]
August 2nd, 2006 at 11:47 pm[...] Well, that just isn’t a hypothetical. See the liberal conniption fit when Tony Snow used this term back in May. [...]
September 27th, 2006 at 4:15 pmI read above, “But in “American lore,†the expression tar baby is also a racial slur “used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people.†”
Now exactly what “lore” is that? Is that from an American oral-tradition folk tale or a old folk song from the Delta? Nope! I don’t think we are talking about lore here. I think we are just talking about usage (actually misusage) of a term, and mostly I gather by certain African Americans who for some reason think it is significant that they happen to be a shade lighter-skinned than someone else.
That isn’t lore, that’s just perversion of lore–perversion of a legitimate folk tale that exists in many variations across West Africa–and the destruction of one more little piece of African American history and ethnology. The Tar Baby story communicates wisdom about traps and inextricable situations. It has not one single thing to do with skin color.
But avoid the term completely! Strike it from your vocabulary and your memory! And also never use the word “niggardly” to refer to stinginess. Because if you say any of these things, you may inadvertently get all wrapped around and tangled up with uneducated fools who think that somehow every thing in the world refers covertly to race and skin color. And that is just a big Tar Baby you must avoid at all cost.
October 14th, 2006 at 12:31 am33 – “I didn’t know there was one, and I’m both smart and educated. How can you expect it of society as a whole then?”
So you expect more from others than from yourself? CAN YOU HEAR YOURSELF?
November 20th, 2006 at 5:07 pmThis is the DEFINITION of P.C.; to prefer the controversial connotation over the denotation simply because it inflames.
Idiots.
it was a bit “niggardly” of him to use the term “tar baby”, but not racist.
this administration is responsible for so much death and destruction, and people are upset about a choice of words.
makes sense.
December 15th, 2006 at 10:49 am[...] because doing so would be ‘getting into a tar baby of enormous proportions.’” (Memo to McCain: The expression tar baby is a racial slur “used occasionally as a derogatory term for black [...]
March 16th, 2007 at 6:43 pm