Snow Defends Use Of The Term ‘Tar Baby,’ Claims Critics Don’t Understand ‘American Culture’
Snow Defends Use Of The Term ‘Tar Baby,’ Claims Critics Don’t Understand ‘American Culture’
Last night on Hugh Hewitt’s radio show, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow defended his use of the phrase ‘tar baby’ during his press conference on Tuesday. The expression is “used occasionally as a derogatory term for black people,” according to Random House, and “some people suggest avoiding the use of the term in any context.â€
Snow told Hewitt his use of the phrase was completely innocent, but that it would no longer be part of his “toolchest of rhetorical devices”:
Well, apparently, what’s happened is, apparently some people are unfamiliar with the pathways of American culture, and don’t realize the old Uncle Remus story where somebody hugs a tar baby. …
I’ve decided, though, because it’s a classic case of, I think, somebody trying to sort of pick a fight. I’ll probably take that out of my toolchest of rhetorical devices, rather than having to explain a hundred and fifty years of American culture.
Some high-profile conservative bloggers have helped defend Snow over the term. Kevin Aylward of Wizbang, for example, claimed that Toni Morrison’s use of the phrase for one of her novels was evidence that ‘tar baby’ isn’t commonly used as a racial epithet:
Is the term used as a derogatory term for black people? Occasionally, yes. Is more commonly used otherwise? Absolutely, as Kim Pearson’s examination details. In fact Toni Morrison has a Nobel prize winning novel tittled Tar Baby, which was a modern take on the fable.
Actually, Toni Morrison has explained her thoughts on the term:
Tar Baby is also a name, like “nigger,” that white people call black children, black girls, as I recall…. At one time, a tar pit was a holy place, at least an important place, because tar was used to build hings…. It held together things like Moses’ little boat and the pyramids. For me, the tar baby came to mean the black woman who can hold things together.
Apparently Toni Morrison is ignorant of how the term has actually been used in American culture.
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I ask again:
“What would conservatives be saying if Hillary Clinton had used the phrase?”
They got their collective panties in a bunch back during the ‘plantation’ debacle.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:45 pmY’all are over reacting to this. I think Tony Snow is a lying sack who can’t be trusted to tell his own mother the correct date of his birthday but his use of the term “tar baby” was correct and was not being used as a racial epithet.
Have you not ever read the American fables about Br’ier Rabbit?
May 18th, 2006 at 3:49 pm“For me, the tar baby came to mean the black woman who can hold things together.”
See, it’s good to call black people tar babies, problem solved. Now all of you leave nice Mr. Snow alone.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:54 pmI think Tony Snow is a lying sack who can’t be trusted to tell his own mother the correct date of his birthday but his use of the term “tar baby†was correct and was not being used as a racial epithet.
Agreed. My point is the GOP screamed ‘racist remark’ when Hillary Clinton used the word ‘plantation’ a few months ago even though her use of the word was properly in context. The neo-conservative talking heads went nuts.
But now that Tony Snow uses a word that could have racial overtones (even if the context was correct), we’re all expected to act like adults and accept the fact that the ussage was innocuous.
I’m just here to point out the hypocrisy of the GOP and conservatives.
Again.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:55 pmIsn’t using the Uncle Remus story as one’s American cultural touchstone a bit sketchy to begin with? In the last 150 years, a lot of racist sayings, characters, and slang have circulated and become embedded in American culture. That doesn’t justify their use in 21st century discourse.
fyi: the Wikipedia entry on Uncle Remus points me to this:
May 18th, 2006 at 3:56 pm“The animal stories are not overtly racist and had considerable popular appeal, but by the Civil Rights era of the 1960s the dialect and the “old Uncle” stereotype of the narrator, long considered demeaning by many blacks, as well as Harris’ racist and patronizing attitudes toward blacks and his defense of slavery in his foreword, made the book indefensible.”
What?! So he’s going to take voluntarily that dandy out of his rhetorical tool box. Good call Tony. Damn good call. Moron…
May 18th, 2006 at 3:57 pm“For me, the tar baby came to mean the black woman who can hold things together.â€
Oooooh! Let me try that.
“For me, the term ‘dumba$$’ came to mean a really smart person who I can respect their infinite capability for brilliant discourse on current affairs.”
So, I guess that means to me, George Bush is not a dumba$$.
May 18th, 2006 at 3:58 pmbobcat
“I’m just here to point out the hypocrisy of the GOP and conservatives.”
Fair enough, but if i remeber correctly, when clinton said it, the left said it was no big deal, yet now this is to them?
May 18th, 2006 at 3:59 pm#6 It just means he will no longer say it WHILE ther cameras are rolling….
May 18th, 2006 at 4:01 pmI am Think Progress’ biggest fan, and read every post every day; To say that Toni Morrison is Ignorant of how the term has been used in American Culture is going too far. You guys need to check yourselves. There are few people who understand the context of black culture in America than Ms. Morrison.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:02 pmJohn Gibson recommends that White people keep having children because the hospitals in America are filling up with “tar-babies”.
Go Whitey!
Is Tony Snow going to cry about this too? Imagine if Bill Clintons’ press guy broke out into tears his first day on the job? Oh, the wingers would howl about how it is a sign of “weakness” and “liberal touchy-feely” innapropriateness.
Break out your weeping towels Snow Job, you have only begun to weep.
-GSD
May 18th, 2006 at 4:07 pmFair enough, but if i remeber correctly, when clinton said it, the left said it was no big deal, yet now this is to them?
Comment by squegeeboo — May 18, 2006 @ 3:59 pm
Hey, the GOP isn’t the only party who can be hypocritical. That’s a basic function of politics.
But, I would argue that the GOP tends to be louder when they scream ‘racist.’
The difference between most Republicans and most Democrats: we can admit that our side is wrong. This Tony Snow thing (in which we all can agree that he shouldn’t have used the phrase at all) is a blip on the radar compared to the more important issues like Iraq, civil liberties, and a better energy policy.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:08 pmThis is a dumb issue. No one cares.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:08 pmLet’s remember to let Tony talk. Just keep asking him to clarify and he will say more things that are likely to reveal his “inner self”
May 18th, 2006 at 4:10 pmthat way, we don’t have to guess about what he means, he will trip over his tongue and let everyone know he is in the klan. or not. so far, it walks like a duck and wears a white robe with hood, so le’t see if it quacks
“The difference between most Republicans and most Democrats: we can admit that our side is wrong.”
But you still haven’t admited being wrong about not supporting/voting for Bush.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:12 pmbobcat
“I’m just here to point out the hypocrisy of the GOP and conservatives.â€
Fair enough, but if i remeber correctly, when clinton said it, the left said it was no big deal, yet now this is to them?
Comment by squegeeboo — May 18, 2006 @ 3:59 pm
Thought you got us bobcat BUT…
Here’s exactly what she said:
“When you look at the way the House of Representatives has been run, it has been run like a plantation, and you know what I’m talking about,” Clinton, D-N.Y., told the crowd at the Canaan Baptist Church of Christ in Harlem. “It has been run in a way so that nobody with a contrary view has had a chance to present legislation, to make an argument, to be heard.”
Where was she when she gave that speech? IN HARLEM on MLK Day – bet there was a whole bunch of whities in the room, right?
From USA Today:
May 18th, 2006 at 4:12 pm…Her remarks were met with thunderous applause by a mostly black audience at the Canaan Baptist Church of Christ in Harlem.
But you still haven’t admited being wrong about not supporting/voting for Bush.
Comment by squegeeboo — May 18, 2006 @ 4:12 pm
Of all the stupid comments you have made on TP, this beats them all…..so far.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:13 pmHillary Rodham talks about the “plantation” mentality of the current administration and progs “praise her insight”. President Clinton is dubbed the “first Black ” President – I thought Toni Morrison bestowed this honour…..
May 18th, 2006 at 4:14 pmIf they still have the nerve to refer to themselves as “conservatives” why does it surprise anyone to hear them use the term – tarbaby?
May 18th, 2006 at 4:17 pmsorry my bad – squegeeboo
May 18th, 2006 at 4:17 pmBut you still haven’t admited being wrong about not supporting/voting for Bush.
Comment by squegeeboo — May 18, 2006 @ 4:12 pm
Eh? No you see…. we WEREN’T wrong when we didn’t vote for Bush. We got that right. It was the other 51% of the country that got it wrong. You know, the 51% that gave him a mandate. That 51%.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:20 pmTony Morrisson and Tony Snow can kiss my black butt. Anytime you use that term, it is derogatory and they know it. Tony disproved her arguement with that lame but comment. The use of the word “baby” denotes infant. “Tar” denotes black. In no way, shape or form does this even remotely equate with “black woman.” And what hurts me more than the comment is that the “liberal media” has not even called any of these idiots to the carpet. Stop the insanity!!!
May 18th, 2006 at 4:21 pmYeah bobcat – the poor idiot. His first presidential election to vote and he screws up his vote this badly!!! That’s a memory!!
May 18th, 2006 at 4:22 pmsorry my bad – squegeeboo
Comment by JP — May 18, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
Okay, good. I was confused whether or not I should offer a rebuttal.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:23 pm“Eh? No you see…. we WEREN’T wrong when we didn’t vote for Bush. We got that right. It was the other 51% of the country that got it wrong. You know, the 51% that gave him a mandate. That 51%.”
See, exactly what I mean, you just can’t bring yourselves to admit it. It’s not that hard, 5 simple words, “I was wrong about Bush” you can do it. Wait, crap, does me typing it mean I just said it?
May 18th, 2006 at 4:24 pmWe don’t understand American culture? That’s odd. Then what culture do we Americans understand Mr. Snowjob?
May 18th, 2006 at 4:25 pm“Yeah bobcat – the poor idiot. His first presidential election to vote and he screws up his vote this badly!!! That’s a memory!!”
See bobcat, even Jules thinks you made a mistake, unless I’m somehow purposely misinterpreting her statement.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:26 pmJP
“Where was she when she gave that speech? IN HARLEM on MLK Day – bet there was a whole bunch of whities in the room, right?
From USA Today:
…Her remarks were met with thunderous applause by a mostly black audience at the Canaan Baptist Church of Christ in Harlem. ”
So let me see if I understand this, Hillary can make a possibly racist comment, and gets apploude for it, Snowjob makes a possibly racist comment and you guys attack him for it? For shame. How about sticking to the same script, you should all be happy he said it.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:28 pm“Well, apparently, what’s happened is, apparently some people are unfamiliar with the pathways of American culture, and don’t realize the old Uncle Remus story where somebody hugs a tar baby. …”
Somebody? He remembers specifically the context, the obscure reference, and the author – but not the ’somebody’?
Actually, Tony, it was Brer Rabbit who punched the tar baby. Your “explanation” does not hold water when even you don’t know the definition of your poor taste colloquilisms.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:29 pmSpongebob – you usually do.
Somehow I think the bobcat has more than one election under his belt.
Sponbebob – It really sddens me that you still support this administration. You had seemed rather reasonable at times for a neo con. *sigh*
May 18th, 2006 at 4:29 pmHow about sticking to the same script, you should all be happy he said it.
Comment by squegeeboo — May 18, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
Do you know what ‘context’ is?
It does matter.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:30 pmSee, exactly what I mean, you just can’t bring yourselves to admit it. It’s not that hard, 5 simple words, “I was wrong about Bush†you can do it. Wait, crap, does me typing it mean I just said it?
Squeege – you dipping into Santo’s meds?
George W. Bush: Bad president or worst ever president? Sorry, you have to pick one. I only have two boxes here.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:30 pmJules
I don’t support this administration, I just choose it as the lesser of two evils over Kerry, and I stand by my choice.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:31 pmSquegeeboo,
Kiss my tar-hole.
-Hillary Clinton
May 18th, 2006 at 4:31 pmYeah Spongebob – you and 29% of Americans. Getting lonely yet?
May 18th, 2006 at 4:32 pmLet’s get something straight. 11,000,000 Africans were brought by slave ships to the United States. Well over half of them died horrific, unnecessary deaths, either by murder or neglect.
That’s what I would call a holocaust.
Now, if Snow had said “Shylock [Shakespeare]” or “hymie [Patrick O'Brian]“, he’d be out of a job.
It’s okay to beat up on blacks. That’s the message.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:33 pmI can’t wait to see the SNL skit off this one. Only problem is, I hardly ever see it anymore. It sucks most times now.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:33 pm“Do you know what ‘context’ is?
It does matter. ”
Only to people who see shades of grey.
“Squeege – you dipping into Santo’s meds?
Nope, but I sure am happy I built a tool to filter his comments out, I changed them all to just list the number followed by “I’m a fluffy bunny”, it made him seem so much nicer.
“George W. Bush: Bad president or worst ever president? Sorry, you have to pick one. I only have two boxes here. ”
May 18th, 2006 at 4:34 pmBad president, I’ll save the worse ever comparision for about 10-15 years from now when we see if any of his gambles manage to pay off or not (I’m betting not, but you never know)
So let me see if I understand this, Hillary can make a possibly racist comment, and gets apploude for it,
And then destroyed by conservatives in the media for a whole week. Granted, they needed something to lash onto, not much is really going their way.
Snowjob makes a possibly racist comment and you guys attack him for it?
I’m not attacking him for it. Was it stupid to say? Hell, yes. But there are bigger fish to fry right now in America.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:37 pmI think most of us are well-read enough to know what Mr. Snow meant in context. However, a man of his experience in public speaking should know that this term — no matter his intention — might be offense to some of his Boss’s employers (the American people) — and find a different phrase. For instance, should Mr. Snow find himself required to discuss the “agouti” — a large rodent closely related to the rabbit, which is indigenous to the equatorial rain forests — he might get a similar response for using the accurate, but inappropriate term — “jungle bunny” to describe the animal. Just sayin.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:39 pmSqueegy will support the neo-con agenda until he gets the bill for their borrowe and spend, last I knew it was 8.4 trillion with around 350 billion in interest payments each year
May 18th, 2006 at 4:39 pmYeah Spongebob – you and 29% of Americans. Getting lonely yet?
Comment by Jules — May 18, 2006 @ 4:32 pm
Hey, you can’t please 29% of the people all the time.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:40 pmSo let me see if I understand this, Hillary can make a possibly racist comment, and gets apploude for it, Snowjob makes a possibly racist comment and you guys attack him for it? For shame. How about sticking to the same script, you should all be happy he said it.
Comment by squegeeboo — May 18, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
Differences:
Hillary – it has been run like a plantation, and you know what I’m talking about,†(quick, to the point, didn’t back down from her comments because “she said what she meant and meant what she said) Also, my personal opinion, but I think a black audience would be a good judge of what’s racist and what’s not
Snowjob – Well, apparently, what’s happened is, apparently some people are unfamiliar with the pathways of American culture, and don’t realize the old Uncle Remus story where somebody hugs a tar baby. …
I’ve decided, though, because it’s a classic case of, I think, somebody trying to sort of pick a fight. I’ll probably take that out of my toolchest of rhetorical devices, rather than having to explain a hundred and fifty years of American culture
(How can most American’s know what a “plantation” is – those things were around 150 years ago and thriving – and somehow when it comes to “tar baby”, Tony Snow thinks it’s difficult to explain the origins of a word from 150 years ago? INDULGE ME SNOWMAN! squegeebuns, this is a tactic you on the WIMP ASS right always do – can you say “backtrack”)
May 18th, 2006 at 4:40 pmOnly to people who see shades of grey.
This may be difficult for conservatives to understand, but most issues have shades of grey. There are very few absolutes in this world.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:42 pmSnowflake, it would have been best to just remove the words “tar baby” from your vocabulary, and then move forward. Defending your words on Hugh Hewitt’s show is just silly. Run along…
May 18th, 2006 at 4:43 pmSqueegy, you’re loving this, aren’t you?
May 18th, 2006 at 4:44 pmJP
“How can most American’s know what a “plantation†is – those things were around 150 years ago and thriving – and somehow when it comes to “tar babyâ€, Tony Snow thinks it’s difficult to explain the origins of a word from 150 years ago”
One is a well know concept taught throughout school, the other is an obscure literary reference that can’t be taught anymore due to it’s racial overtones. That would be the difference.
Both comments were dumb and should never have been said, but for some reason you seem to defend Hillary’s and not Snows? So if I have a black friends who don’t mind me using slurs I should go ahead and do it, but I can’t use them around white people? Sounds like a double standard to me.
#46 Zoo, you know it.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:47 pmCome on, folks. There are a lot of worthy fights worth fighting. Many of them are outlined every day on this website. Hounding Tony Snow for using the term “tar baby” is not one of them.
Let’s keep our eye on the ball. We’re not speaking truth to power here. We’re nitpicking. I don’t think anyone really thinks Tony Snow meant what we’re suggesting he meant. Let’s be real.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:49 pmComment #1 not withstanding, # 49 beat me to the punch by 1 post- my thoughts EXACTLY.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:55 pmSounds like a double standard to me.
Sure does. So is the coverage this isn’t getting in the main stream media.
Hillary does something boneheaded = a week of screaming by Republicans in the media and on talkshows.
Snow does soemthing boneheaded = [Pretend you hear crickets chirping] in the main stream media.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:57 pmTar babies are part of INTERNATIONAL MYTHOLOGY. A tar baby is allegory for a situation in which your strongest attacks mire you deeper and deeper into fruitless struggle. The protagonist who encounters a tar baby and lives is one who triumphs with wit, guile, or enlightened discourse, not just violence.
The Tar Baby is a perfect symbol for the Bush Administration, ever applying more tools from the same failed strategy to the same improbable goals. Tony Snow’s “refusal to hug the tar baby” is, allegorically, indicative of an awareness of his and his employer’s inability to find a new path to victory.
So aside from this entire argument being over a stupid piece of Political Correct nonsense, it is also destroying a great criticism. The Buddha hugged the tarbaby. Folk heroes hug the tar baby. The Bush Administration runs away.
May 18th, 2006 at 4:58 pm#49
I said the same thing in 12. Stay on target… stay on target…
May 18th, 2006 at 5:00 pm[...] [...]
May 18th, 2006 at 5:03 pm#46 Zoo, you know it.
Comment by squegeeboo
:-D
May 18th, 2006 at 5:05 pmJust because Tony Snow is ignorant that doesn’t mean that we shouldn’t point out his racist remarks(But we can’t point out Hillary’s). And no, Snow doesn’t get a pass just because he doesn’t realize what he’s saying(Even if Hillary did). It’s not nitpicking to point out that the official White House spokesperson is making offhanded racist remarks(but it is nitpicking when a senator does it) and then is too stupid to realize that his defense only goes further toward proving that the term is racist.
There, Clams Casino, clarified your talking point for you a bit.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:07 pmMay be Snow needs to be tared and featheres : that’s part of the of the american culture . Fortunatly it is cahnging , but like most southerners are slow , he’ll change ….. eventually.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:07 pmSqueegy how about we solve it by having Hillary restate her remarks in the White house press room and Tony Snow restate his in the middle of Harlem, but then Bush would need another new press spokesman.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:15 pm#59 “I never said anything about Hilary.”
Funny, mine was a copy and paste that I then added to from a previous post of yours.
“The Hilary comparison is YOUR talking point.”
May 18th, 2006 at 5:16 pmActually, Bobcat brought it up, and it seems like him and me agree on the hypocrisy of each side defending their own and attacking the other.
Squeegy how about we solve it by having Hillary restate her remarks in the White house press room and Tony Snow restate his in the middle of Harlem, but then Bush would need another new press spokesman.
Comment by Clif — May 18, 2006 @ 5:15 pm
That one gets a golf clap from me, Clif. Great idea.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:17 pm#61
May 18th, 2006 at 5:18 pmOops, I just realised that you in fact didn’t say anything about hillary until saying you didn’t say anything about hillary, my apologies.
“Squeegy how about we solve it by having Hillary restate her remarks in the White house press room and Tony Snow restate his in the middle of Harlem, but then Bush would need another new press spokesman.”
I’ll take the position. It’ll take me even less time then Snow to insert foot in mouth, prob. be right off the bat when they catch me muttering into my microphone about “finally being able to stick it to the damn dirty hippies”
May 18th, 2006 at 5:24 pmLook, I loathe Bush and all his henchmen as much as the next guy–but I gotta say that it seems as if a lot of folks are being pretty selective in the Random House entry that they choose to call the “preferred” one. Typically, the most common usages are listed first, and the racial slur is clearly listed last. I live in the South, and believe me when I say that up until the sixties, you could hear just about every racial epithet going–probably some you Northerners have never even heard. But I never, ever have heard “tar baby” to mean a racial slur unless it came from someone from up North. I’ve never heard tar baby refer to anything other than a sticky situation that gets worse the more you try to extricate yourself from it. Now, of course, it could be argued that Mr. Snowjob should, in his lofty position, know the reprehensible use of the term as well as the more traditional one. But if Toni Morrison doesn’t, I’d say you might let this one go.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:25 pmNow just wait a cotton picking minute!
Some of my best friends are tar babies!
http://patrickjfitzgerald.blogspot.com
May 18th, 2006 at 5:30 pmTo #48
“One is a well know concept taught throughout school, the other is an obscure literary reference that can’t be taught anymore due to it’s racial overtones. That would be the difference.”
Can’t be taught anymore? I don’t buy it.
Did you school not teach you about raccoons? Ever mention anything about grease? beans? kraut? I bet your school library even had Huckleberry Finn.
I’m sorry, but I don’t see how reminding everyone of every possible racial connotation of a term that’s been around since before Europe knew the Americas existed is going to help problems with racial divisions. If you’re from a school system that was so insulated with Political Correctness that you don’t know what a Tar Baby is in literature, why is it so hard to believe that someone might have made it to middle-age without ever hearing that term used as an epithet?
May 18th, 2006 at 5:31 pmMaybe to a former Fox commentator “tar baby” is part of their culture, since they seem to be caught in a time warp.
When Mike Wallace said he admired Roger Ailes because he tapped into a untapped market, I sort of lost a little respect for him as a professional journalist. When you think of it, what market has Fox tapped into – the white racists male. Who likes Limbaugh? The same thing. So yes, “tar baby” fits right in their with their racist attitude and it is bubbling over. The Confederate lives. :-( I wonder what Spike Lee, Russell Simmons, Sean John, Will Smith, Bill Cosby, Oprah, Rev Jackson would have to say. Words have enormous power.
I bet if Jay Leno asked people on the streets during one of his Jay Walking segments, most people would say it is derogatory. Toni Morrison wrote a book with the title. The cable series The Shield had an episode using it. Here’s another example:
There is a Dragnet episode done in the early 50’s that uses it. This would make sense why the online dictionary said the term was “dated”. Which would correspond to this administration, rather than moving us forward, wanting to take us back to 1950. When Father Knew Best, pre-birth control, Jim Crow, and disfranchised African Americans were fighting for civil liberties.
The bottom line though, with all the words in the English language that have evolved, this choice probably showed more about him and his beliefs, than anything else. Let’s assume he purposely used it to achieve some goal. We know the Republican base has a lot of extremists that are racist and/or elitist. Was the use of this term for them? I think a reasonable person, who does not want to divide, would not use it today.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:33 pmI feel strongly the Snow, and the rest of BushCo are right here… nothing but good could come from their frequent and enthusiastic use of the term ‘tar baby’. Go for it, guys! While you’re at it, work in ‘niggardly’ a few times, too.
You have the dictionary on your side, so what’s the worst that could happen?
May 18th, 2006 at 5:35 pm#68 – I used it earlier this week at my office with my co-workers, referring to a sticky situation we were in, and none of them batted an eye. I still contend there is a colloquial component to the use of this word. I’ll do an informal poll over the next few days among my Southern friends and see what they have to say.
I’m a reasonable person with no wish to divide, but I see no reason why a highly descriptive phrase should have to be expunged from the language b/c so many people are ignorant of its longstanding use. Next you’ll be saying, for the sake of peace and harmony, that we eliminate the word “niggardly” from our vocabularies, in order to avoid friction with those ignorant of its real meaning.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:39 pmAnybody try to buy a copy of Disney’s ‘Song of the South’ lately…?
May 18th, 2006 at 5:42 pmSqueege, you sure spend a lot of time here. And you’re usually one of the first to comment on new threads. It’s as if you didn’t have a job; or perhaps this IS your job.
Your self-effacing tone masks a supporter for an agenda most of us find repugnant – yet still you come, with your weak reasoning, debunked talking points, and an “ah, shucks I’m just spoofin’” attuitude that’s supposed to be, what, disarming? It isn’t. Let’s show everyone how “evenhanded you are Squeege – since you delight in pointing out other’s foibles. Name ONE thing Bush has done that you find goes against your beliefs as an American. If you’re not a kneejerk conservative, it shouldn’t be hard – after all, if you ask any of us, we can give you chapter and verse. Political things like Harriet Miers’ nomination don’t count, nor does instances where all Bush did was expose his trademark incompetence. Name one thing that Bush has done that offends you AS AN AMERICAN. Perhaps, if your example is strong enough, you’ll then prove you’re not a paid (not much I’ll bet, judging the quality of your work here) troll.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:46 pmIf you think “Song of the South” uses the tar baby as a symbol for blacks, then I think you’re confusing the use of Southern dialect for racism. The tar baby in the movie is a sticky trap that was set for the smart ass Bre’r Rabbit. All his efforts to break free from the trap got him more stuck than ever. That’s the illustration for the traditional use–NOT a racial slur.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:47 pmThe thing I find most interesting is that Tony Snow is going on conservative radio shows to continue the WH spin. I guess maybe his mix-up about the “competing station” wasn’t such a mix up after all. When will he be on Fox News giving interviews? Is this part of the press secretaries duties? Hmmm.
May 18th, 2006 at 5:53 pmMy biggest problem with all this hubub hearkens back to a George Carlin skit, where he talks about how those in power, and unwilling to share it, use whatever kind of diversion they can – class, race, religion, sexual preference – to keep others fighting. Reminds me also of something a friend of mine used to say when asked about his political affilition – not right, not left, I’ll head up.
It’s not like he used the Tar Baby description for a question where racism could reasonably be inferred. If the press gaggle transcript had read
May 18th, 2006 at 6:00 pm“QUESTION: When will the President state publicly his stance on the ongoing genocide in Darfur?
SNOW: We’re not ready to hug that tar baby!”
and you all cried racist! I’d be marching with you. Until then, settle down, have some dip.
The term has two different origins and two totally different meanings, so whether or not it’s racist depends on the use of it. Clearly, Snow is not using the term as a racial slur.
It’d be like taking an old Brit to task for referring to his cigarette as “a fag.”
Let’s move on. This is ridiculous.
May 18th, 2006 at 6:04 pmTony Snow is just the latest conservative to show why the Republican outreach effort to African-Americans seems doomed to fail. He joins a long list including Ken Mehlman, Senators George Allen, Trent Lott and Jim Demint, Governors Matt Blunt and Haley Barbour, Fox News’ own John Gibson, and of course, President Bush.
For the details, see:
May 18th, 2006 at 6:07 pm“Snow White.”
Nobody hates Republicans or Tony Snow more than I do, but I think this is a bogus attack.
I always thought a “tar baby” was a metaphor for something like a quagmire, you touch it and you get stuck to it. It would never have occurred to me that it was a racial epithet.
May 18th, 2006 at 6:19 pm[...] From Think Progress: Tony Snow defends his use of a racist expression by asserting it is part of “a hundred and fifty years of American culture.” [...]
May 18th, 2006 at 6:24 pmCover of the first Uncle Remus volume,
“Legends of the Old Plantation” (1881)
Pretty much Sums up what Snow Meant.
Plantations and Slaves.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:00 pm#80, Of course it should make it less offensive if it didn’t occur to him that it was a racial slur. You’re being ridiculous. You’re saying intent means nothing? Are you really saying it doesn’t matter what Tony Snow meant, just what you and other who are aware of the racially-loaded term perceive to be racist? That’s what’s relevant?
Think about what you’re saying. Think about someone directing that term intentionally at someone purely as a racial slur. That’s not more offensive than Snow’s use of the term??
Come on. We may want Tony Snow to be a racist because he’s on the other side, or because we can’t resist our PC stereotype. But you’re going to need better evidence than this.
The man used a fairly well known literary term. We’re the ones making ourselves look stupid by pointing it out.
This is embarrassing.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:01 pmI’m with Snow on this one. It was a well-chosen, descriptive phrase which captured vividly the hazards of even commenting on a subject in an arena full of sharpshooters.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:02 pmhttp://xroads.virginia.edu/~UG97/remus/atlanta.html
May 18th, 2006 at 7:02 pmThe other Remus: Harris’ non-folklore Remus stories
Old Black Uncle Remus!!
It was not a well-chosen, descriptive phrase which captured vividly the STUPIDITY of Commenting on a subject in an arena full of All Races of People.
Honest George your is yet another Wacko Fundimentalist Racist Apologist
May 18th, 2006 at 7:05 pmTony Snow is right. The critics are just trying to pick a fight over manufactured grievances without any real substance.
I have heard plenty of derogatory terms for black folks. “Tar baby” isn’t one of them. But that doesn’t mean I’m not familiar with the term. It is one of the most enduring images of the Uncle Remus stories – stories I enjoyed in both book and movie form when I was a kid. The image of Bre’r Rabbit begging not to be thrown into the briar patch still cracks me up. And, like Tony Snow, I use the tar baby image as a metaphor for inextricably sticky issues.
I have referred to “tar baby” issues in all kinds of company, black, white and brown, without ever a word of protest. These critics need to pipe down and get a life.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:12 pmFAUX NEWS IS FUNDIE WACKO TV…
Just look at all the ranting raving pundits, whom are ignirant of Religious History. They Stop at Moses.
They want to destroy the constitution, Falwell Roberson Oreilly want to Blow up destroy and Kill..
All For What? Some 2,000 year old words in Deutromony that gives Rationalization to Violent Religious Racism?
The Deutromony is ever bit as much kill smite edge of sword blood of the enemy as the Koran is..
Two Groups of Wackos, fighting over some prophets words..STILL.
Thats Intelligent? Thats Jesus Like?
Its crap, mankind goes back 12,000 years to the Flurosimeans, and to the Khams [Khems] of Ancient China. Yeh that upsets the Fundies.
But thats History.
Human skulls are ‘oldest Americans’
Skull, Liverpool John Moores University
The skull is said to be 13,000 years old
Tests on skulls found in Mexico suggest they are almost 13,000 years old – and shed fresh light on how humans colonised the Americas.
The human skulls are the oldest tested so far from the continent, and their shape is set to inflame further a controversy over native American burial rights.
Ooo Wahhhh Wahhhhh Fundies!! LOL.
Get a grip you maroons
May 18th, 2006 at 7:19 pmWell said, #86.
If you guys want to try and make this an issue to get the base all fired up and believing that the White House spokesman is a raging racist, fine. Maybe that’s what it takes to get people to the polls. Maybe it works on some sort of base political level.
But on an intellectual level, spare me.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:19 pmI have referred to “tar baby†issues in all kinds of company, black, white and brown, without ever a word of protest. These critics need to pipe down and get a life.
Comment by Blue State Red — May 18, 2006 @ 7:12 pm
But you’ve never been the White House Press Secretary, have you? There are lots of ways to express things in the English language, especially the American version. But government officials saying things that, in other contexts, could be construed as racist or derogatory is inexcusable.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:21 pmI have referred to “tar baby†issues in all kinds of company, black, white and brown, without ever a word of protest. These critics need to pipe down and get a life.
Comment by Blue State Red — May 18, 2006 @ 7:12 pm
who has ever listened to BSR?
LOL NONE!
I was born in the South BSR, this is a word we didn’t use in public, and that we got the soap in the mouth for it. Perhaps your Parents approved of Racial Idiocy?
Apparently so.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:22 pmSee heres why TONY IS WRONGO
just as BSR and the other RACE people.
Genetically Speaking, Race Doesn’t Exist In Humans
Templeton’s paper, “Human Races: A Genetic and Evolutionary Perspective,” is published in the fall 1998 issue of American Anthropologist, an issue almost …
http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/1998-10/WUiS-GSRD-071098.php
Because its a bunch of crap to say that RACE exists in humans. Tiny Tony stuck his assfoot in his assclown mouth. And By BSR and George using those WORDS thy are also Ignorant of the FACT that man is man is man, and that using “baby words” as a White House Spokesman shows his Ignorance of humanity.
Marooons!
May 18th, 2006 at 7:27 pmAll I know is that back in the 1960s my mother told me not to use the phrase “tar baby” because some people could find it to be offensive.
Obviously, my mother was a lot smarter than Tony Snow’s (and those of several of the folks who have commented here).
Here are few other racially charged words and phrases that your mothers probably didn’t teach you about:
Gyp – Example: “What a gyp!” This is offensive to the Rom or Roma people who are often called “gypsies” and stereotyped as being dishonest.
Indian giver – This is offensive to Native Americans for obvious reasons.
Jew down the price – I’m always amazed that people are stupid enough to use this one in the 21st century!
Call a spade a spade – This can be offensive to African Americans. Don’t claim that it is in reference to a playing cards.
Perhaps these are also part of Tony Snow’s rhetorical toolbox — if so, he’s got a lot of explaining to do!
May 18th, 2006 at 7:29 pmAwww Tiny Mental Midget Tony failed Science and humanity…What a bunch of toadies Bush Hires. And What a bunch of Maroons believe that MAN was COLOR or RELIGION or RACE first.
Yes The Jews were First! But they came from a Sapceship!!
No The WHite Man Christian Was First!!
No The Yellow little men from Kham were first!
No the Egytptians, No the Sumerians!!
Idiots and their Racial Bias. Snow Made a Freudian Slip Up!!
And it got his butt in a binder.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:33 pmThe Poetic Justice.
Tony Said, Tony Pays.
I cannot believe some of the comments here,’I didn’t know it was racist’? Please. Try saying it around some of the black friends I am sure you have. “I use ‘tar baby’ all the time and no one complains? Please. I don’t know where Grand Master Snow is from or whether they use the word all the time around Fox but I certainly hope he will be more niggardly in his use of the phrase from now on.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:37 pmancientx.com/images/al26big.jpg
Ever seen a 12,000 year old Alien BSR?
LOL, but its not an Alien is it?
LMAO at BSR and the Wacko Fundies!
Yes BSR we liberals are aliens, see we have great big brains, we see dead people, we have fingers like ET!
You wackos.
May 18th, 2006 at 7:38 pmSo, what is American culture, Tony?
May 18th, 2006 at 7:53 pmYou are most certainly a “dufass (dumb ass).
“Snow Job”, how appropriate. WOW!
May 18th, 2006 at 8:36 pmThey will have to go fishin for cover when they try covering their tracks on the race issue. Just total failures, period. THese people are just void of heart in a human world.
May 18th, 2006 at 8:43 pmTo #10, do you understand Nico was being bitterly sarcastic? Oddly, I’ve noticed that the people that bring race issues to light are often the first to get attacked…
May 18th, 2006 at 9:07 pmAs usual the left is in a snit because a conservative has dared to break the sacred rules of political correctness. Had this comment been made by a leftist it would have gone unnoticed. Fortunately Snow knows you people well enough to ignore the barking moonbat ravings. By all means, keep up the howls of indignation. The rest of the public will learn to ignore you as well.
May 18th, 2006 at 9:41 pmDoug what about the hoo and cry over H. Clinton’s plantation remark..I have heard nothing on the talking head shows to even come close to the cry of that given one is a senator and the second purportedly speeks on behalf of the pResident of the United states
May 18th, 2006 at 9:49 pm“Tar baby” would probably be racist in most contexts. But “hug the tar baby” is a literary metaphor. Obviously, Snow should not have used it–it caused such a stir–but I do not find it objectionable in its context.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:08 pmRegarding my ‘Song of the South’ reference (#71), the point is that Disney stopped all releases of the movie in 2001 (earlier in the US) because of complaints of racial stereotyping… and ‘tar baby’ was a big part of it. Doesn’t matter if there are other, legitimate uses for the term, there is a significant portion of the population who find it offensive… enough to get a Disney movie off the selves.
I want to say that Snow should have known better, but instead I’ll suggest again that he should stick to his guns and use the term frequently and enthusiastically… I’d love to see what happens as a result.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:30 pmI’m not ignorant. I’ve lived in this country all my 55 years. I have heard the tar baby fable and I have heard references to tar baby in that context only. I have never heard it used as a racial slur and it never occurred to me that it would be used as one because it is “taken”, it’s a reference to something else… period. So … maybe I haven’t been hanging with the crowd that does use it that way, or maybe it’s regional, but maybe also it’s really a tempest in a teapot.
May 18th, 2006 at 10:58 pm[...] Think Progress � Snow Defends Use Of The Term %u2018Tar Baby,%u2019 Claims Critics Don%u2019t Understand %u2018American Culture%u2019 [...]
May 19th, 2006 at 1:09 amSnow used to talk for a living right? With a nation wide audience right? So he should know that some phrases are considered low, crude, rude and out dated by a large hunk of the populace. Why did he use that phrase while speaking for the President, unless he wanted G.B to appear low, rude and out of date?
Blaming snow for being ignorant and careless and impolite, is like blaming a dog for barking. Its part of his essence as a white thug republican.
May 19th, 2006 at 1:27 amCampaign for progressive legislation http://www.zazzle.com/maximus7
May 19th, 2006 at 2:17 amWhen the Righties were huffing and puffing over the ‘Hillary/Plantation remark, they were curiously silent regarding a previous ‘Plantation’ remark made by Newt Gingrich, which failed somehow to raise the same amount of self-righteous indignation as Hillary’s did. Like always, ‘no biggie’ when Rep.’s do it, OHMYGAWD!!!, if it is a Dem. Just blame a Clinton, and all will be well. Weak. And for Mr.Snow to be so oblivious as to the possible reaction by a good many Americans to this thoughtless comment, shows HIS lack of understanding of American culture. And he tops it off by implying that those who are upset, would benefit from a tutorial from him, IF he could be bothered to do so, which he can’t. What an ass.
May 19th, 2006 at 2:34 amtoolchest of rhetorical devices ? ? ?
So instead of truth that he’ll be speaking to the Press Corp and the American people, it will be something pulled from his ‘TOOLCHEST OF RHETORICAL DEVICES ?!
btw, since when is using an offensive, racist term ‘rhetoric’ ? ?
May 19th, 2006 at 2:58 amSnow is in the right place to find out “without a doubt” if the term is racist or not. He is in Washington DC … all he has to do is go outside the White House compound and travel not more than one short block and approach ANY small group of blacks that he should happen across … and simply say “only the word TARBABY” nothing more, nothing less. I can promise you that any remaining doubts he should have about how that word is viewed will be immediately erased from his mind as well as his hide.
May 19th, 2006 at 4:10 am#2 Brer Rabbit isn’t even American. So far as anyone can work out, the mythology is old African, and Brer Rabit’s character is mirrored in Africa’s Jackal or Hare stories. The tar baby even features in them too, hinting at the age of the old animal myths.
May 19th, 2006 at 5:26 amUnfamiliar with the pathways of American culture? Ton SnowJob go to HELL! You call yourself an AMERICAN? You nazi pig vomit.
May 19th, 2006 at 8:50 amYou libs just can’t grasp that Snow’s intent really was innocent—you keep insisting that his expression was racial. If that were true we would have heard an outcry from Jesse Jackson, Al Sharpton, and every other black activist you can think of.
In contrast, you completely ignored Howard Dean’s comments at the DNC—how the Republicans would need to invite the hotel staff to have as many people of color in attendance as they did…
You said nothing about Ray Nagin and his “Chocolate City”
The only reason you keep harping on Snow is because he’s connected to Bush—yet another mindless attack on someone Bush nominates or appoints.
May 19th, 2006 at 8:56 amThe point to focus on really is that Tony Snow completely FAILED in his attempt to provide the news without actually being the news.
A press secretary is supposed to be be an anti-personality, because having a personality in this position is like being a fly on a lens…. you really don’t want to take the heat, and you’re much safer if you’re transparent.
May 19th, 2006 at 8:57 amGood point Drew. You’ve actually touched on an inherent problem with today’s media—they regularly fail to provide the news without being the news, or attempting to shape public opinion. The fact that Tony Snow is a well known personality is the only reason I disagree with him being Bush’s spokesperson—he’ll always draw too much attention to himself.
May 19th, 2006 at 9:08 amI think that Tony Snow is not a racist, or at least, he didn’t intend to show racism in his comment. But he’s got a PR problem: his mistakes were not avoiding a term that many (maybe even most) people consider racist, and claiming the only reason he didn’t think it’s racist is that he’s smarter than everyone.
“I’ll probably take that out of my toolchest of rhetorical devices, rather than having to explain a hundred and fifty years of American culture.”
Why can’t he just say, “You know, I certainly didn’t mean it that way, but I probably shouldn’t have said it.” Usually it’s liberals who get slammed for being intellectual elitists.
May 19th, 2006 at 9:41 am#119
Why can’t he just say, “You know, I certainly didn’t mean it that way, but I probably shouldn’t have said it.†Usually it’s liberals who get slammed for being intellectual elitists.
Comment by Yachts and Lattes — May 19, 2006 @ 9:41 am
Agreed—at least he promised to take that little gem out of his toolchest though.
May 19th, 2006 at 9:50 amANTAGONIST – you’re not paying attention. Most don’t feel that Tony is racist, but they do agree that Tony is not very sharp for using this ‘rhetorical device’ and acting surprised when it pissed people off. Just shows that he’s really out of touch with American culture.
Isn’t it ironic that Tony’s use of the term ‘tar baby’ threw him into a sticky situation from which he finds it difficult to escape…?
May 19th, 2006 at 10:45 amI think it’s sad that tar baby is a racist term because it’s so useful. Iraq, for example, is a tar baby. The more you attack it, the more stuck you become. I’m a professional progressive writer and I use the term from time to time.
May 19th, 2006 at 11:22 amWhat I’m saying is I was born, raised, and currently reside in the south, I have been around a lot of racists and heard a lot of racial epithets, but “tar baby” isn’t one of them. Are you saying you know southern racists better than I do? I think not.
May 19th, 2006 at 11:50 am[...] You know, I leave for a few days and everything happens. First, a senior official in President Bush’s re-election campaign was sentenced to prison in the New Hampshire phone-jamming scandal. What everyone wants to know is why the RNC spent millions defending this guy, after initially claiming he was a “free agenct.” And who were these operatives speaking to in the White House on Election Day? New Press Secretary Tony Snow proves himself to the Republican Party and Bush Administration by using the phrase “tar baby,” and apparently we are all too ignorant to understand him. He’ll fit right in. [...]
May 19th, 2006 at 12:16 pm[...] You know, I leave for a few days and everything happens. First, a senior official in President Bush’s re-election campaign was sentenced to prison in the New Hampshire phone-jamming scandal. What everyone wants to know is why the RNC spent millions defending this guy, after initially claiming he was a “free agenct.” And who were these operatives speaking to in the White House on Election Day? New Press Secretary Tony Snow proves himself to the Republican Party and Bush Administration by using the phrase “tar baby,” and apparently we are all too ignorant to understand him. He’ll fit right in. [...]
May 19th, 2006 at 12:16 pmI’m another progressive Southerner who has never heard “tar baby” used as a racial slur by Southerners. It’s got to be a regional thing. I’ve used the term recently at my office about a project that was likely to turn into a quagmire of a mess, and nobody batted an eye. I’ve heard more racial epithets than most Northerners have probably ever heard in their lives, and “tar baby” was never one of them.
May 19th, 2006 at 12:33 pmToni Morrison is indeed ignorant of American culture and, apparently, African culture. The tar baby is a form of a character widespread in African folklore. In various folktales, gum, wax, or other sticky material is used to trap a person.
The folktale achieved currency in the United States in written form in one of Joel Chandler Harris’s Uncle Remus stories, a collection of stories based on African-American folklore, narrated by the fictional Uncle Remus, a former slave. In the story “Tar-Baby,” the character Brer Fox makes a doll out of tar, which he places by the road to entrap his enemy Brer Rabbit. Brer Rabbit talks to the doll, and when it doesn’t answer, he hits it, and gets stuck in the tar. The more he struggles with it, the more he is entangled in it. That is a “tar baby”. The use of it to describe Blacks is a secondary, rarer useage.
This story has led to the figurative use of tar baby in the sense ‘an inextricable problem or situation’, sometimes with the nuance ’something used to entrap a person’. Both the examples cited in the question show the use of this sense, which appears to be first used in the early twentieth century.
May 19th, 2006 at 12:48 pmClinton’s planation remark and Snow’s Tarbaby remarks were both offensive. Whether Democrat or Republican both remarks were insensitive. If it were a black person at a major press event that said, “I dont want to hug the honky” or “i don’t want to hug the cracker” people would be up in arms. A tar baby in american culture has been associated with black people, just like the term porch monkey.
May 19th, 2006 at 5:02 pm[...] Two titans go at it, but Snow has a Tarbaby up his sleeve for when the Ref is distracted! Look out, Gonzales! White House In Disarray: Contradicting Snow, Gonzales Says Bush Opposes Making English The National Language [...]
May 19th, 2006 at 5:09 pmSo Tony Snow is going to take “hugging the tar baby” out of his tool chest of rhetorical devices . Well, who among us had any illusions that we’d be getting any straight talk from this clown but I’ll bet he has a great big tool chest so at least we’ll have a crapload of rhetorical devices to look forward to.
May 19th, 2006 at 11:40 pmJust a quick historical note on comparing the majoritarian Congress to a plantation —a place where those in the majority have all the rights and power and the minority have none.
It may come as a shock to our young republican friends to learn that it was old Newt and republican his bully boys who popularized comparing Congress to a plantation during their attacks on the Democratic majority in the early 90’s.
Why is the same phrase spoken in the same context so offensive when Hillary says it and a “meaningful insight” when it is brayed by Newt?
May 20th, 2006 at 1:30 amOne more thing. Brer Fox and Brer Bear didn’t squeeze the baby made of tar (tar baby) in the old African folktale that Disney stole. They punched it and kicked it because it wouldn’t respond to their greetings. The more they punched and kicked the tighter they became entangled in the tar until they were totally helpless.
Maybe Tony could better use his tar baby as an excellent introduction to Bush’s policy in Iraq. The more we punch and kick the more helpless we become.
May 20th, 2006 at 1:43 am“Tar Baby” is Brer Rabbit allusion for “quagmire” (ala Fly paper). One Google search for “Tar Baby” makes that perfectly clear. But its association with African American mythology, muddled by its “Uncle Remus” pedigree, left it dangling in American culture as an ambiguous ‘black’ reference. It’s name Tar (black and dirty) Baby (small person), made it low-hanging fruit for vulgarity, and it took the low road to a second meaning. Now, like “Gay”, it’s popular perception has been altered from its original context.
Linguistics happens.
Now, Tar Baby’s linguistic limbo makes it its own best example. In trying to avoid hugging the ‘NSA’ tar baby, Tony Snow hugged the ‘tar baby’ tar baby.
May 21st, 2006 at 2:33 am[...] Snow Defends Use Of The Term Tar Baby, Claims Critics Don …Think Progress, DC - May 18, 2006Last night on the Hugh Hewitt radio show, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow defended his use of the phrase tar baby during his press conference on … [...]
May 26th, 2006 at 5:04 amWhen Bush won the election, I was shocked! and since, I’ve never met anyone who (admitted) to voting for him!
June 2nd, 2006 at 10:23 amIs this all we have to chose from?
If this is the best we can do, we’re screwed
This proves that we need to emphasize multi-cultural education.
June 2nd, 2006 at 12:33 pmI am old enough to remember the pain of being victimized by that term.
Words have power and if the Press Secretary of the US has such a limited vocabulary, that he must resort to racial slurs to express himeself?
Wasn’t he briefed?,
Didn’t anyone tell him that one just doesn’t use the term ‘tar baby’, especially in and around the Chocolate City!
And then to justify it’s use with a now obscure reference from a film I saw 35 years ago, hardly remember and is no longer readily accessible? If he is so well versed in things such as Song of the South and American culture, he would know that this movie was killed off by Black America because it was THAT demeaning!
[...] Tony Snow, then Mitt Romney, and now Senator Jonh McCain have all used the phrase “Tar Baby” in [...]
March 18th, 2007 at 8:19 pm