POLL: Only 3 Percent Say Homosexuality is America’s ‘Most Serious Moral Crisis’
POLL: Only 3 Percent Say Homosexuality is America’s ‘Most Serious Moral Crisis’
President Bush and congressional conservatives “are aiming the political spotlight this week on efforts to ban gay marriage,” a move that’s sure to renew debate over so-called “values voters.” But as a poll released today by the Center for American Progress shows, the moral concerns of the American people are nothing like what the right wing claims.
Below, some highlights:
– Asked to name the most serious moral crisis in America today, 28% of Americans cite “kids not raised with the right valuesâ€; followed by 22% saying “corruption in government/businessâ€; 17% saying “greed and materialism†or “people too focused on themselvesâ€; and only 3% citing “abortion and homosexuality.â€
– On addressing poverty: 68% of voters strongly agree that “government should uphold the basic decency and dignity of all and take greater steps to help the poor and disadvantaged in America†(89% total agree).
– On religious freedom: 67% of voters believe that religious freedom is a “critical†part of their image of America compared to less than three in 10 who believe Judeo-Christian faith specifically is critical to this image.
(Click HERE for more details on the poll, and HERE for a slideshow presentation on the findings. For what it’s worth, among voters who participated in the survey, 46% voted in 2004 for President Bush, while 36% voted for John Kerry.)
As Ron Brownstein of the Los Angeles Times wrote this weekend, “the survey demonstrated again that the moral issues people worried about most in their daily lives were very different from the ones dominating political debate.”
UPDATE: Via First Draft, Gallup has released a similar poll:
What issue do you think should be the top priority for the president and Congress to deal with?
The top five responses were:
Situation in Iraq/war: 42%
Fuel/oil prices/lack of energy sources/the energy crisis: 29%
Immigration/illegal aliens: 23%
Economy in general: 14%
Poor healthcare/ hospitals; high cost of healthcare: 12%I suppose gay marriage could be classed with “Ethics/moral/religious/family decline”, which was the 20th of the 28 issues listed by respondents, important to only 1% of those polled.
Sort Comments By: Top Rated | Date
147 Responses to “POLL: Only 3 Percent Say Homosexuality is America’s ‘Most Serious Moral Crisis’”
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
Yea, and that 3 percent all work at the White House.
June 5th, 2006 at 12:41 pmAre abortion and homosexuality combined as a single issue? May I ask why?
June 5th, 2006 at 12:42 pmDoesn't matter - gotta' git them Fundies to saddle up and ride!
June 5th, 2006 at 12:42 pmNot news to us here.
But surely to be ignored and/or misrepresented by the right.
Am I the only one who feels like they're screaming at the top of the lungs and everyone around me can't hear it?
June 5th, 2006 at 12:43 pmonly 3% citing “abortion and homosexuality.â€
Combined... So then, the gay issue is even less of an issue because we know that there's a whole sect of Republican Evangelicals who believe life begins at conception and ends a birth...
June 5th, 2006 at 12:46 pmDemocrats regaining power in government and exercising proper oversight is the mos serious crises facing George W. Bush and his gang of criminals.
June 5th, 2006 at 12:48 pmIt is TIME to take back religion from these extremists. And not just in America either. The Islamist extremists need to be put back in their place by their own Muslim brothers. And Jesus needs to be taken back from the reichwingers. They dont OWN Jesus. They were not even around when Jesus was on earth. It is time for someone that really takes Jesus seriously to move on these extremist bigots that claim Jesus as theirs and theirs alone. They do NOT speak for any gods. Their actions contradict the teachings of Jesus and his followers.
Ever watch the new Sci-Fi channel version of DUNE? I suggest you watch it.. about 2 or 3 DVDs worth but it is a really good show if you think of "The spice must flow!" as "The oil must flow!" ... and as wise old woman said... because when you play with peoples beliefs... it can give you great power AND it can burn you and destroy you with it fire! The reichwingers have opened pandoras box of trying to use Jesus to force their way into power... lets take back the name of Jesus for what it actually stands for and thereby taking away their #1 lie ... their #1 illusion they try to hide their evil with.
June 5th, 2006 at 12:51 pmI wonder how that 3% would feel about aborting homosexual babies?
June 5th, 2006 at 1:02 pmI'm gay but they are most definitely "queer" to think that my relationship of 9 years effects anything other than how the trash gets to the curb or how the bills get paid. I'm more concerned about straight and gay people getting their children to become responsible, educated citizens.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:04 pmWhat's the difference between a gay man and a hunting dog?
A hunting dog sicks ducks.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:05 pmYes, but what does the RNC's polls say about homosexuality? Rove says those are the ones that really matter...right?
June 5th, 2006 at 1:06 pmHmmm...my sarcasm tags didn't show up. Drat.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:07 pmGays, God & Guns.
Fear is the mindkiller.
Don't be afraid; be mad as Hell.
W, Jesus called & is he pissed.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:08 pmThis just in!
The GAYS are coming! The GAYS are coming!
They are in their snappy little red coats and marching towards Boston!
They GAYS are coming! The war is on. Either we will win or we will all be speaking GAY soon!
June 5th, 2006 at 1:14 pmI can take some solace in the following:
I had lunch today with three co-workers. One is a liberal like me, one is a moderate conservative, the other is almost neo-conservative (although he doesn't really know why he believes what he believes). Being mischevious, I introduced the topic of Bush and his amendment proposal.
Well, my liberal co-worker went off about the fact that this a complete waste of time and how this is an obvious political ploy. The moderate conservative said that while he didn't support homosexual behavior, he didn't think the Constitution was the place to address a religious belief. The neo-conservative said that he felt that such a step was necessary to 'protect the sanctity of America.' Ahhhh.... so nice of him to set me up.
I tore this guy's argument to pieces as respectfully as I could. I pointed out the fact that there are much more important issues the Congress could be spending time on: he agreed. I pointed out the hyprocricy of the 'States' Rights' party trying to create a federal law telling the states what they can't do: he agreed. I asked him how allowing two people he didn't know to have the same civil rights as him was wrong: he couldn't tell me. I asked him if he'd like to be legally bound to live his life following the religious views of Judaism, Budhism, or Paganism: he said no, that would be silly. I asked him if he'd be upset if he was told he couldn't marry his wife because she was a different race: he said of course.
By the end of lunch, he was admitting that this was a stupid waste of time and that he was sick of the smokescreen the GOP was pulling. He made it a point to say he still didn't approve of homosexual behavior. To that point, we agreed to disagree. He's entitled to his opinion, I just wanted him to think the subject through when it comes to limiting someone's rights.
But here's the kicker: without prompting he said, "Well, I will make damn sure that in November, I don't get tricked into voting for someone based on a stupid issue like this. I'm a Republican, but I'm sick of the crap they're pulling on us average middle-American Republicans. They had their chance."
I was gleeful.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:16 pmWhat is interesting is one could easily tie together the top three as being related and part of the same issue. Materialism and greed IS running rampany and becomong a form of self-entitlement. This is reflected in our political state as Republicans care more and mroe about making money for themselves and their wealthy contributors no matter what it costs the people/environment/country/etc. Meanwhile kids are growing up ina culture that no longer remembers what real values are. They believe self-esteem is popularity at any cost, even if it means bullying others and/or defining yourself through your clothes/car/possessions. They believe might makes right. They believe that if your parents have money or power then they must be entitles to special treatment.
It's all the same thing if you ask me. ANd the likelyhood that the GOP, the party of greed and commercialism, will do something to prevent the mindless commercialism is naive. So they have no choice but to address the smaller issues that don't affect their incomes.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:17 pmI wonder how that 3% would feel about aborting homosexual babies?
Comment by G.W.SuperChrist — June 5, 2006 @ 1:02 pm
I keep asking IRI, but he won't answer me on that. I think I also used it for future mass murdering fetuses.
So, you know what they say - silence is an assumption of agreement ;)
June 5th, 2006 at 1:18 pmGerald Gibson
It isn't religion that these guys are about, its evangelism. They have replaced the concept of a god who demands moral behaviour, with the concept of a celestial lord who demands tribute.
That is just my take on it as an Atheist.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:19 pmI’m more concerned about straight and gay people getting their children to become responsible, educated citizens.
Comment by Leah Ann — June 5, 2006 @ 1:04 pm ]
After my first year in the education system (high school science) - after 14 years in another field, I can say that I couldn't agree more. The biggest problem in the classroom is behavior disruption - which is a result of children either not getting enough parental guidance and attention - or getting teh wrong kind (spoliing to compensate for limited time together).
If we could get every parent to teach their child respect for themselves and other living things, we'd knock out 75% of the problems we have in the world. That simple. Have no idea why it's so difficult to implement...
June 5th, 2006 at 1:22 pmi also noticed that abortion and homo stuff were lumped together. that seems like a strange pairing to me. but, on the other hand, if you put those 2 "hot" issues together and can still only get 3%, than as lewis black said about gay marraige, "we shouldn't even be debating this. on the list of things to talk about, this should be on page 6 after, are we eating too much garlic as a people?"
June 5th, 2006 at 1:22 pm#19 - Great job, bobcat_grad! You need to schedule A LOT of lunches between now and November. Sorry, but you have to put your own life on hold -- it's for the good of America!
June 5th, 2006 at 1:23 pmI was gleeful.
Comment by bobcat_grad — June 5, 2006 @ 1:16 pm
The voice of reason usually prevails :) Kudos!
June 5th, 2006 at 1:27 pmIt isn’t religion that these guys are about, its evangelism. They have replaced the concept of a god who demands moral behaviour, with the concept of a celestial lord who demands tribute.
That is just my take on it as an Atheist.
Comment by Bruce Gorton
I grew up totally right wing. I thought Metallica was part of satans plan to turn kids like myself into brainless black hearted anti-christs.... ok .. so I was DEEP into that crap.
Religious extremists are the same wether they be jewish, christian protestant, christ catholic, muslim, etc. They can call themselves evangelicals but it is just another name.
Organized religion = source of power. Power mongers seek sources of power. Catholics did this same crap for over 1500 years. And if we let them get away with it they would pull out the iron maidens and get to work again.
Someone that goes all the way for their virtuous beliefs (like Ghandi) could start a religious movement (not church) that pushes the true teachings of Jesus (like not going out to the streets showing how religious one is) (like helping the poor even at the expense of ones self) and totally bash these bigots every time they try to use their evil dark Jesus... you know the one that justifies killing Iraqis just because they are towel heads. The dark Jesus that worships money and profit over the health care of the people... They want to use Jesus? Well they are not the only ones that can play that game. The true Jesus was against these types of people. And religion can be a powerful thing indeed. Why not use it against them... considering truth is on our side... the dark evil Jesus never existed in the first place... these people have taken something that was great and twisted it into evil.... They choose to live by the sword... now it is time for them to die by that very same sword.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:30 pmIts a lighting rod issue. Geared towards distracting media and public attention from serious issues like:
- Healthcare for everyone
- Tax relief that only benefits the wealthy
- The administrations failures in Iraq
- The corruption endemic in the Republican party
- The Illegal actions of this Administration
- The administrations failure to capture the only person ultimately responsbile for the 9/11 attacks.
- Governmental subsidies that benefit the Oil, Pharmaceutical and Defense industries to a level never seen before
Yeah. 2 CONSENTING men and women making lifestyle choices that affect ONLY them are really important enough to warrant this attention.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:33 pmi also noticed that abortion and homo stuff were lumped together. that seems like a strange pairing to me. but, on the other hand, if you put those 2 “hot†issues together and can still only get 3%, than as lewis black said about gay marraige, “we shouldn’t even be debating this. on the list of things to talk about, this should be on page 6 after, are we eating too much garlic as a people?“
Comment by chriswithstix
Well I dont buy the 3% thing... just go to CNN ... over their the poll shows 33% ... and the polls on CNN tend to be voted for by less stupid people ... and STILL there is 33% voting yes for a constitutional amendment being NEEDED... needed for what I dont know... because despite my earlier post .. THERE IS NO ARMY OF GAYS COMING TO TAKE OVER AMERICA AND THERE NEVER WILL BE. And voting to support the same rights for all Americans does not mean you are gay so it doesnt have to be supported just to make the point that you are not gay.... that isnt the point you homophobes.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:34 pmBush panders to the extreme far-right religious bigots in the United States like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell! I call them the Christian Coalition Taliban!
June 5th, 2006 at 1:37 pmBruce Fein just called out Republicans for having "a squalid motive" in trying to crap on our Constitution once again. (C-SPAN Live discussion now)
I'm starting to like that guy.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:40 pm19 --- nice post bobcat
25 --- Getting banned for posting this kind of non-sense should have given you a clue Santo, but I guess that is too much to hope for . Your postmakes no sense at allas is usual
28-- Gerald, Throughout history the most innocent blood shed has been done by religious fanatics in the name of God. That should be an eye opener on organized religion. But sadly few actually ever learn from history.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:41 pm#28 Gerald, you're dead on.
I keep saying if Jesus were alive today, he'd be a Democrat.
The party of helping the poor and downtrodden, not stomping on them.
The party of trying to level the playing field, not concentrating the wealth and worshiping golden idols.
The party of peaceful resolution to conflict, not using God's name in vain to beat the war drums.
Now, of course, there will be some Republican that tries to say, "Yea, well you also want to kill babies." No, we don't. Not a single liberal wants to kill babies. But until God comes down and delivers a keynote address to us all about the definitive moment a fetus becomes a human being, that issue remains up for debate. And may I remind you, Republicans, you guys support the death penalty even though you say God is the only one who is allowed to judge. Now, we all know that killing people is wrong, and criminals must pay. But does killing a killer make you more godly?
I just can't believe that most conservatives don't see the hyprocricy in their beliefs vs. their actions. It's as though wrapping the God flag around them gives them carte blanche to hate, discriminate, and judge others.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:43 pm33% sounds a lot more like what i would expect, especially with the abortion part lumped in there. i live in michigan and the a-holes here voted for a gay marraige ban. during the campaign season, the rightwing consistantly said that this was just about saving the sanctity of blah blah blah and not about benefits for gay couples etc. but, within a month or so of the passage, our conservative attourney general started pushing for all state and gov. contracts to deny benefits to gay couples. this wedge issue got folks to the polls then and it will again.
i should have went with my hunch that 3% was too low.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:45 pmI can't stop thinking about hot, gay, man sex.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:48 pmAll this talk about gays has me feeling "curious"...and confused...
June 5th, 2006 at 1:49 pmNO BOBCAT!!!……he will be indipendent!!!! right in the middle!!!…..:)
Comment by ijustloveher
Holy crap! For the first time I understood something you said...
Yes "The Middle Way" ... look it up on google.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:50 pmI think, perhaps, we should take a look at prohibition, and what happened when we try to create morals thru laws. It didn't work then and it won't work today.
Of course any issue, in a crisis management ruled society, via the media hacks, gets blown totally out of proportion and they ignore public opinion.
The "Centrist" media, today, exists only in that regard, they take an issue, and create a "Crisis", they then repeat the same dint across the US.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:51 pmThe 'Centrist' media hacks should be our next target, they sit on the fence and blame the left mostly, 'Fair and Balanced' reporting [Thanks Reagan!] it isn't. So Congress/Senate and the Media, whom have worked in cahoots for the last 40 years.
Why? The New World Order. Globalisation thru marketing.
Marketing is of course 99% hype. A pair of sneakers, made in China, in some sweat shop magically increases in value simply thru Media Marketing.
Read this, does it make sense?
~~~~
1968 - The Subtle and Leisurely Penetration, a reference report from the George Mason School of Correspondence, is published by Education Information, Inc., of Sacramento, CA. It mentions that the thirty-two Americans to be Rhodes Scholars this year have been selected, and then states: "The stated objectives of Cecil John Rhodes and his friend, Sir Andrew Carnegie, included the reduction of the United States to a colony of the New World Order."
~~~~~
So, the Rhodes Scholars, such as Clinton, are but part of this National Versus International Soverignity, all in the name of 'peace' and 'brotherhood'.
Yet we find ourselves in more Wars, today Bush doesn't create Peace or Brotherhood nor are they truly interested in 'Equality'
As Poverty Wages show us.
So this New World Order, is nothing but Political Claptrap.
In Effect its only a rationalization for greed, power, and wars.
and not the latest game or puppet!….get it? uh?……
Comment by ijustloveher! — June 5, 2006 @ 1:33 pm
Go back to myspace Santo - you said that you loved them more than TP anyway.
June 5th, 2006 at 1:53 pmNot one single U.S. Troop who has lost his or her life in Iraq so far, was killed because of "gay marriage"...
Not one single dollar of a record-setting (and back-breaking) Federal Budget deficit, is due to "gay marriage".
Not one single life lost on September 11, 2001, was lost because of "gay marriage".
Not one single criminally-lame excuse the administration has given for failing to prevent the attacks of 9-11 (failing to "connect the dots" they lamely say), has anything to do with "gay marriage".
Not one single penny of record-high gasoline prices, and record-high oil company profits, is due to "gay marriage".
And so why would "gay marriage" be such an important political topic right now?
Why of course, to distract you from U.S. Troops being killed in Iraq, and from a record Federal deficit, and from the administration's covering-up of the Saudi (their "good friends") attack on 9-11, and from gasoline prices and oil company profits.
Me, I can stay focused on what's important; I don't give a hoot about "gay marriage".
June 5th, 2006 at 2:00 pmI encourage each of the readers to use the following analogy to point out the hypocricy and repressiveness of the right in their self ordained delusions to dictate what people can do with their mind, body, and lives.
FERTILITY CLINIC FIRE
The argument is that abortion ought to be banned because a fertilized egg is fully human at the moment of conception, and entitled to all of the rights afforded any living human being, but it puts the advocates of this position in an uncomfortable bind when you ask them to put it to the test -- and here’s the test:
"Since most opponents of abortion believe that life begins at conception (indeed they nearly have to believe that to make their argument) – here’s a little hypothetical scenario for you to answer. And remember, it’s hypothetical, so don’t dodge the answer by changing the circumstances.
The fertility clinic where you work is on fire, and in one office, there is a Petri dish contains five human blastomeres (fertilized eggs) – according to “pro-life†dogma (see South Dakota) these are five “pre-born children.â€
Your secretary’s two-year-old son is in another office down the hall.
You can save only save the Petri dish or the boy – NOT both.
Whom do you save? And why?"
When I have posted my hypothetical situation on Christian Taliban blogs, most of the anti-abortion folks resorted to name calling and very vigorous tap dancing. This is simply because if they stick to their claim that there is no difference between the product of conception (a fertilized egg) and a two-year-old child, then the two-year-old is toast. If they choose the two-year-old, then they not only admit the difference between a fertilized egg and a living, breathing child, they see a difference between FIVE fertilized eggs and that particular two–year-old child -- so much for seeing conception as the beginning of personhood, eh?
But they can’t admit that either because then a central pillar of their ethical perspective on abortion comes crashing down around their ears -- loudly.
As this scenario illustrates, if they truly believed their rhetoric, the correct answer here is to grab the Petri dish, since they be saving five lives instead of one. Remember, in the context of South Dakota -- a fertilized egg is no different from a two-year-old child.
The problem, which anyone with a good eye can spot, is with extremism. Fanatics, on both sides of this debate, place themselves in specious, non-tenable positions because they’re not thinking completely through their positions.
I am waiting for Bush to attend a funeral for any of the thousands of petri dishes that are disgarded daily and as a result destroying stems cells that would save lives.
I will wait but I am not holding my breath.
June 5th, 2006 at 2:01 pm33% sounds a lot more like what i would expect, especially with the abortion part lumped in there...
Comment by chriswithstix — June 5, 2006 @ 1:45 pm
The 3% are people who think that homosexuality is the most serious moral issue... 90% of the 33% are people who think banning homosexual marriage is important but not the most important issue.
June 5th, 2006 at 2:04 pmDan,
Excellent test!
Of course, I'd save the two-year old kid. To me it is about conscious life. Not potential life.
Cause what if the five fertilized eggs were all 'bad'? I've known several women go through this process with several embryos, and none of them 'take'... Can't risk a definitive and viable life over what might be, when it might not be either...
June 5th, 2006 at 2:06 pmHey American Patriot,
Do you know what the real difference between Iraq and Vietnam is?
Bush had a plan for getting out of Vietnam.
June 5th, 2006 at 2:07 pmHow desperate is Bush to keep the Fundies from sitting on their hands in November, as they've threatened to do?
He's apparently ordered Stephen Harper to "revisit" Canada's legalizing gay marriage -- even though Harper's doing this has angered BOTH sides of the Canadian debate to the point where it's seriously threatening Harper's hold on power: http://phoenixwoman.blogspot.com/2006/06/as-if-we-needed-any-further-proof-that.html
June 5th, 2006 at 2:07 pmExcellent test!
Of course, I’d save the two-year old kid. To me it is about conscious life. Not potential life.
Cause what if the five fertilized eggs were all ‘bad’? I’ve known several women go through this process with several embryos, and none of them ‘take’… Can’t risk a definitive and viable life over what might be, when it might not be either…
Comment by unbelievable
And the eggs will not scream in agony as they die...
June 5th, 2006 at 2:11 pm– Asked to name the most serious moral crisis in America today
Of course homosexuality is not the "most serious" moral crisis in America today. This statement insinuates that we should do nothing about any moral issue unless it's the "most serious". The fact that 3% feel it is the most serious moral crisis surely would lead most to wonder what percentage feel it is a moral problem. I would think our government should take care of moral problems the people want addressed.
“government should uphold the basic decency and dignity of all and take greater steps to help the poor and disadvantaged in Americaâ€
This is actually a 2-part question that's conveniently posed as a single one. 1. Should the government uphold basic decency & dignity of all? Sure. 2. Should the government take greater steps to help the poor and disadvantaged in America? The answer to that should be yes as well, but those steps can include tax cuts & job creation rather than Robinhood-type liberal giveaway tacticts.
67% of voters believe that religious freedom is a “critical†part of their image of America compared to less than three in 10 who believe Judeo-Christian faith specifically is critical to this image.
Again, this question depends on how it was asked. I would be interested to know if people were given a choice between choosing religious freedom or Judeo-Christian faith being a critical part of their image of America or if they could choose both.
Unfortuntately, I clicked on all the links and didn't find the actual survey anywhere, just an interpretation of it. Could someone provide a link to the questions that were asked, so all of us can make up our own minds on the results.
June 5th, 2006 at 2:11 pmHey American Patriot,
Do you know what the real difference between Iraq and Vietnam is?
Bush had a plan for getting out of Vietnam.
Comment by common dedominator —
Now THAT is good!
I am writing that one down right now...
June 5th, 2006 at 2:11 pmI would think our government should take care of moral problems the people want addressed.
Comment by C Storms
Then move to China
June 5th, 2006 at 2:13 pm[...] On the eve of #43 calling for a constitutional ban on gay marriage, a recent values poll reveals that only three percent of respondents fear the homobortionist boogie man. [...]
June 5th, 2006 at 2:13 pm#48 Dan - I love it man!
I have used that one on a couple of conservatives I knew... they both got really red and accused me of asking an unfair question... what idiots!
June 5th, 2006 at 2:14 pmThe answer to that should be yes as well, but those steps can include tax cuts & job creation rather than Robinhood-type liberal giveaway tacticts.
Comment by C Storms
You mean like the democrat FDRs NEW DEAL that created jobs for making dams and other public works that was desperatly needed? What liberal give aways? DECENT WAGES FOR DECENT JOBS! No more out sourcing...
June 5th, 2006 at 2:15 pmCStorms,
You know the best way to control moral problems in our country? Teach your chidren respect for themselves and for other people. Seriously. It is the mother and father who are far and away the most influential ina child'slife - and if they don't teach the kid manners and ethics, no judge, jury or elementary school teacher is going to be able to do it...
Take moral responsibility for yourself - don't ask the President to do it for you.
June 5th, 2006 at 2:21 pmC-Storms:
Please rank the following issues in order of importance in America today:
I'll put them in alpabetical and leave the sorting to you.
Corruption in Politics: Lobbyists and corporate interests are more important than constituents now
June 5th, 2006 at 2:26 pmEnergy Policy: $3/gallon gas, no plan for reducing dependency on oil
Estate Tax repeal: Because that's a tax that will affect .1% of us.
Gay Marriage: The union between two consenting adults.
Health Care: astronomical price increases and 45 uninsured men, women and children
Loss of Civil Rights: Warrentless wiretapping of innocent Americans
National Debt: Increasing by the second, the limit was raised to almost $10,000,000,000,000.00.
War in Iraq: policy mistakes, people dying everyday, no exit strategy
C Storms
Law should not concern itself with morality, because morality is a lot easier to change then law. Further, once one takes morality into it, you get stupid crap like banning mixed marriages and forcing prayer in schools.
The law should be there to protect the people, not the people's view of the world, nor their souls. The second is up to the people themselves, and the third is the province of whatever religion they happen to belong to.
June 5th, 2006 at 2:27 pmI don't get it. What base are they exactly energizing
June 5th, 2006 at 2:28 pmif only 3% of the people even think this is a
big deal? Let them energize their 3%. If we can get
the progressive vote out in November, that 3% can
then go pound sand.
#42 - I can’t stop thinking about hot, gay, man sex.
Comment by Jeb's OBGYN and Check Cashing
Try this:
June 5th, 2006 at 2:28 pmRing, ring, ring, ring, ring, ring, banana phone...
ring, ring, ring....um, nevermind.
Oops.... #62 is supposed to be 45 MILLION uninsured...
Only 45 wouldn't be all that bad.
June 5th, 2006 at 2:28 pmBruce:
I like the gist of #63. I'm going to edit and add, then cut and paste this into a place to save it:
"Laws are there to protect people's lives and rights, not their souls. The fate of their sould is between them and their God."
June 5th, 2006 at 2:33 pm#48 - That's great, I'll use that one. I know some people I really want to stop speaking to me. ;)
I'd save the 2 year old, of course.
June 5th, 2006 at 2:40 pm#51- HA!! The pain of water being expelled from my nose was a small price to pay for that laugh!
In general, maybe this will be the year that conservative voters will tire of being told what their biggest concerns are. They should be telling Congress, not the other way around. I would like those who oppose gay marriage to explain to me both HOW, and WHY their marriages are so threatened by gay people marrying? If their marriages are so fragile that something that in no way impacts them, other than offending their 'fine sensibilities', can have such a catasrophic effect on them, and their state of "wedded bliss", I don't think Gay's getting married is really the problem, it just sounds better to them.
June 5th, 2006 at 2:43 pmIs Jeff Gannon married?
June 5th, 2006 at 2:52 pmIf so, is it to Karl Rove?
Why can they stay in the White House?
W, why do you hate marriage?
#74
Cyra,
I've been asking those questions for a couple of days now here, and no one has yet taken the bait. It's as if the roaches scattered when the light went on. I've gone even further and specified three situations:
1. How and why did same-sex marriage cause my father to have an affair with other women, resulting in the breakup of my family?
2. How and why will same-sex marriage affect my marriage to my wife?
3. How and why will same-sex marriage affect the future marriage of my nephews if and when they do marry?
I've covered past, present, and future marriages. Still waiting for answers.
June 5th, 2006 at 3:10 pmWhat about aborting gay terrorist babies by using a burning flag?
June 5th, 2006 at 3:12 pmIf you watch Fox News you'd think that 100% of american's are angry about gays, even the gay americans.
June 5th, 2006 at 3:17 pm#83 e_five - If you abort gay terrorist American flag desecrating babies that waive Mexican flags you got yourself a deal
June 5th, 2006 at 3:19 pmWhat about hermaphrodites… can they marry?
I wonder if ol Georgie Boy knows that this whole sex thing ain’t exactly cut and dried… some folks got both sets of naughties.
Do they get to marry anyone they want or no one?
June 5th, 2006 at 3:24 pmAnd George went down unto the lord, and asked the lord how he shall prevail, and the lord said unto George "Rise George, and take unto thee these tablets."
And George was confused, for he saw no holy tablets, only slabs of stone with writing on them, so he asked the lord "What tablets my lord? For I see no narcotics upon thine stone bits."
The lord sighed deeply, and answered "The stone bits are tablets, no don't try to swallow them you idiot, they aren't that kind... pull your pants up man, shit here I am giving you the ultimate wisdom of how to maintain and keep your grip on power and I have to explain what a tablet is? Shit, the guy upstairs never had this problem with Moses. Look, take those stone things with text on them there, right?"
"Yes..."
"Then take them up to your followers, these are your new commandments, and with them you shall have victory."
And so it was, that George ascended the great crator of Las Vegas, Nevada, and brought with him the Republican fifteen commandments, and the Republicans rejoiced, for their new age of darkness was upon the world.
The Fifteen Comandments
1: Keep the people afraid at all times.
2: Thought is the enemy, when in doubt, blame the intellectuals, judiciary and opposition.
3: The definition of junk science is science that doesn't agree with the president.
4: Loyalty is for minions to demonstrate to leaders, not for leaders to demonstrate to minions.
5: The appearance of righteousness is more important then actually being righteous. Never be afraid to thump your bible while lying about its contents.
6: Always remember, whatever you do somebody else has done it too, and really shouldn't their morality be looked into?
7: Never trust the people. Tap their phones, feed them false information, and if they don't vote for you, disenfranchise the bastards.
8: People tend not to change presidents during a war. Even if the president started the war.
9: Might is not only right, but also trumps bright. If you are strong but stupid, people will vote for you and not blame you for your misdeeds, if you are bright but weak, people won't vote for you but will blame you for the other guy's misdeeds.
10: Never apologise, never admit weakness, and never, ever, take responsibility.
11: But always claim your enemies are arrogant, weak, and incapable of taking responsibility. See 6.
12: The media is like a pet dog, if you kick it it will be on your side, if you let it run free, it will piss on your lawn and bite you.
13: Whenever someone attacks you on the issues, always remember to label them. Environmentalists are for example, tree huggers, peace activists are peaceniks, and anybody mentioning a duty to their common man is a pinko liberal. Get creative, and remember, no label is ever too childish, no matter what the moonbats and the haters say.
14: Diplomacy is another word for calling someone a madman and an idiot in the hopes that they will start the war, thereby giving you really good PR when you squash them.
15: Always remember, the only good leak is a leak that reflects badly on somebody else.
June 5th, 2006 at 3:35 pmExcellent Bruce!
June 5th, 2006 at 3:43 pmWith all the very serious problems and issues confronting us today, the Rethuglicans prefer to talk about threats to marriage. Incredible.
June 5th, 2006 at 3:59 pmThreats to marriage might be adultery, or divorce, or violence, or other abuses - but how does someone else's marriage or union affect mine? It doesn't.
It seems unconstitutional to deprive American citizens of certain rights and privileges within society because of their sexuality.
Marriage as a religious ceremony can be defined within the church, and discussions and debates can and should be held to pressure changes in the rules within the church, but civil marriages are just that -- civil, legal unions of individuals who are entitled to all the benefits of society.
Allowing the rules of some religions to influence the rules of a secular country is giving up individual freedom to the zealots.
Conservatives must be so self-loathing, so puritanical, so obsessed with sex themselves, that they need to project their own insecurities on the rest of us.
Bruce Gorton, great post.
June 5th, 2006 at 4:01 pmI guess the left needs to get it's message out! I could care less with whom (or what) you sleep or play with, but don't ask me to condone it. never has a Pro Gay Marriage or Pro Abortion measure ever won at the ballot box. ?3%? That is about how many SUPPORT gay marriage or abortion. Don't believe? Put it on any ballot in any state and see if it passes. I dare you.
June 5th, 2006 at 4:03 pmExcellent post, Bruce.
June 5th, 2006 at 4:04 pm#101 - I could care less with whom (or what) you sleep or play with, but don’t ask me to condone it.
RRS, nobody is asking you [or your kind] to condone anything, only to mind your own business.
June 5th, 2006 at 4:06 pmI keep saying if Jesus were alive today, he’d be a Democrat.
Comment by bobcat_grad — June 5, 2006 @ 1:43 pm
They were not even around when Jesus was on earth.
Comment by Gerald Gibson — June 5, 2006 @ 12:51 pm
Jesus is not a historical figure. Jesus is a mythological figure – same as the tooth fairy or Zeuss, there is not a single shred of evidence to counter this fact. People often say, "there's plenty of historical evidence" and this is nothing more than an assumption. Read up on the subject.
An italian called Luigi Cascioli is currently taking the Vatican, via a priest called Rev. Enrico Righi, to the European Court of Human Rights - CASE N° 14910/06 CASCIOLI v ITALY. This court case has arisen because Luigi has, to a rational mind, proven Jesus was never real. It is now up to the Vatican to prove Jesus was a real human being i.e. a historical figure, in a court of law.
If you're interested in discussing this further let me know.
June 5th, 2006 at 4:22 pmit's Invasion Of The Body Snatchers all over again... "You're next! "You're next!!!"
http://blogdebogs.blogspot.com/2006/06/marriage-amendment-not-made-in-heaven.html
June 5th, 2006 at 4:25 pmRepublican lawmakers have allowed the energy industry to write their own legislation, Big Pharma, the Insurance industry, Credit Card Companies, etc., to make rules that support their agendas, now the Religious fanatics want their turn. Good luck with that.
June 5th, 2006 at 4:33 pmbut don’t ask me to condone it.
Comment by Retired Republican Soldier
Dont condone it ... just mind your own business.
I dont condone your republican beliefs... so lets out law them in the Constitution.
June 5th, 2006 at 5:00 pmI agree with the basic point of this post, but having "kids not raised with the right values" as an option in this poll basically makes it meaningless. How many of the people who chose this option think that the problem with kids' values these days is that they're being raised to think homosexuality is okay, and other pseudo-religious issues? We really don't know.
June 5th, 2006 at 5:17 pmIf you’re interested in discussing this further let me know.
Comment by British Gary
Well there are ancient writings that have been found in many locations that were not under the control of the Romans (roman catholics) that talked of Jesus. The muslims talk of Jesus. Now all of these writings were created long after his death. And there were no TVs nor anything else like that to ensure that someone that was alive for only about 30 years and was a condemed and executed "criminal" in the eyes of the state would have been recorded. Given the lack of large volumes of writings (by todays standards) of ANY event from those times let alone of someone that was not a major figure outside of his followers is not unusual. It could be said of Buddha as well. And many many other peoples, places, and things. Did the light house of Alexandria really exist? or the great library of alexandria that was burnt? Did Troy REALLY exist? So much has been lost it is hard to tell. Just because some people write about something doesnt make it so. And the lack of writings about someone doesnt make them nonexistant.
Since I dont believe in the "devine" I guess I dont really care if Jesus ever lived... as long as someone did that had the thoughts and words of that which I call "Jesus" then I am satisified. The ideas and words are what matter when it comes to Jesus. Whether there was an actual person by that name that did the things mentioned in the bible or at least some of them is of little concern. The IDEALS of Jesus ... the SPIRIT of the meaning of his words is what is key. Take the U.S. Constitution and the Bill of Rights. Does it REALLY matter who wrote them as long as the meaning and the spirit of the law is held up as the standards by which we live?
Because of this it just doesnt matter if he was a historical figure or not.
In my mind the notion... "ALL MEN ARE CREATED EQUAL" is a notion based on the ideas of people like Jesus, Plato, Buddha, Ghandi ... And they are all equally important.. because "devine" is a myth... but men and their suffering at the hands of other men is not. Did Cain and Abel really exist? Dont know. Dont care. BUT is it not still important a question.... ARE YOU YOUR BROTHERS KEEPER?
June 5th, 2006 at 5:19 pmas long as someone did that had the thoughts and words of that which I call “Jesus†then I am satisified.
Comment by Gerald Gibson — June 5, 2006 @ 5:19 pm
The reality is it was probably many people Gerald, I agree that it doesn't matter who wrote nice things as long as nice things are taken as a sincere way of life. I have no issue with people following the message of Christianity as long as it is understood that Christ is mythological, the bible is not to be taken literally and don't follow Christ when 'He' say's things like this;
"Those enemies of mine who did not want me to be King over them, bring them here and kill them in front of me." – Jesus Christ (Luke 19:27).
If people accept Christ was not historical, others may question what else in the bible is not true and take the bible less literally - helping to avoid religious extremism.
June 5th, 2006 at 5:37 pmLittle yapping dogs are so annoying. I like little dogs, but the ones who just bark, day and night, just because they can, should be muzzled, when in the places where anyone in earshot is forced to hear it. It is the polite thing to do, especially if the owner will not try to correct their behavior.
June 5th, 2006 at 5:37 pmMaybe you should have listed abortion and homosexuality separately. They go together for some, but not all, people. I'm sure there are people who get upset about abortion, but don't worry about gays. There might also be some people who get upset about gays, but not about abortion -- probably fewer, I expect.
June 5th, 2006 at 5:38 pmThe "Moral Crisis" is sitting in the White House.
Visit my blog: People For Progress
June 5th, 2006 at 5:42 pmWhen exactly is government-sponsored prejudice against gay people going to stop. Prejudice is wrong, no matter who it is aimed at. Gay people getting married, having familes, adopting children (who will be brought up healthier and happier than most in heterosexual families — do a little research and find out) has zero effect on marriage, on heterosexuals, on religion, on anything for that matter. Zero effect. Yet, here we are again with Bush pushing this nonsense to the forefront to distract the ignorant bigots in our country from the real issues. Shame on anyone who bites this bait.
June 5th, 2006 at 5:47 pmHaven't seen your posts in a while, British Gary -- glad to see you're back! I always read your psots.
June 5th, 2006 at 5:48 pmI love revealing inconsistencies and untruths, here's another list from the 'infallible' book for extremists.....
legal errors that are equally serious e.g.;
a. John talks of the Jewish priesthood electing to stone an adulteress to death (John 8:5), when the Great Sanhedrin – the Jewish Supreme Court – had long before abolished the death penalty for adultery.
b. Mark has Jesus appearing before the Sanhedrin on the night of the Passover Feast (Passover Eve), and it was SACRILEGIOUS for them to meet either at night OR during a religious festival (Mark 14:53).
c. Mark also talks of a woman divorcing her husband (Mark 10:12), although in the Jewish world at the time a woman had no rights of divorce.
All the gospels lacked descriptive detail one would expect to find in first-hand accounts. For example, they all fail to describe any of the people who appear in their narratives – even Christ Himself! Our current concept of Christ comes from the medieval ages. None of the gospel writers offer any description of the man they considered the most important individual who ever lived. The same is true of the Virgin Mary, in addition we're not even told how old Mary is at any point in the biblical narrative.
June 5th, 2006 at 6:12 pmNow let's look at the gospels from a historical perspective;
a. Mark has Jesus appearing before the Sanhedrin at the palace of the high priest (Mark 14:53), when historically the Sanhedrin met at the Beth Din, a part of the Jerusalem temple.
b. Matthew has the famous 'Sermon on the Mount' delivered on a mountain (Matt 5:1).
c. Luke has the Sermon on the Mount delivered on a plain (Luke 6:17).
d. Luke has Jesus performing the miracle of the Miraculous Catch (the net full of fish) when he first meets Simon Peter (Luke 5:1-10).
e. John has Jesus perform the Miraculous Catch when they last part company (John 21:3-8).
f. Matthew, Mark and Luke relate that Jesus cast the money changers out of the temple just before the Crucifixion (Matt. 21:12, Mark 11:15, Luke 19:45).
g. Whereas John places the casting out event early in Jesus' ministry (John 2:13-16).
h. The details of the Crucifixion are completely different in all the gospels and all four gospels give a different version of the Superscription – the words written on the plaque attached to the cross above Jesus' head (Matt. 27:37, Mark 15:26, Luke 23:38, John 19:19).
i. The gospels also give three completely different renderings of Jesus' last words (Matt. 27:46, Mark 15:34, Luke 23:46, John 19:30).
oh dear....don't evangelists consider this tripe the 'definitive word of God?'
June 5th, 2006 at 6:18 pmNor do the gospels agree on the day the Crucifixion occurred. All this is nothing though, compared to the conflicting accounts of the most significant religious event in Christian history – the Resurrection;
a. Mark tells us that Mary Magdalene, Salome and Mary – mother of James, were the first to discover the already opened tomb, in which a lone man in a white garment informed them that Christ was risen (Mark 16:1-6).
b. Luke tells us that a woman called Joanna and a number of other women were also present and that the news of Christ's Resurrection was conveyed by two men in shining garments (Luke 24:1-10).
c. John has Mary Magdalene alone when she finds the already open tomb and the news is conveyed to her by two Angels (John 20:1-13).
d. Matthew tells us that the two Mary's actually witnessed the opening of the tomb and saw an Angel descend from the skies and roll away the stone that sealed the entrance (Matt. 28:1-6).
which is it? ummm.errrr....I think I'll have, hang on, yeah, that one!
June 5th, 2006 at 6:21 pmWhen exactly is government-sponsored prejudice against gay people going to stop. Prejudice is wrong, no matter who it is aimed at. Gay people getting married, having familes, adopting children (who will be brought up healthier and happier than most in heterosexual families — do a little research and find out) has zero effect on marriage, on heterosexuals, on religion, on anything for that matter. Zero effect. Yet, here we are again with Bush pushing this nonsense to the forefront to distract the ignorant bigots in our country from the real issues. Shame on anyone who bites this bait.
Comment by Pinky
Zero effect?
No there is a BIG effect. Without the US vs THEM WALL that these bigots keep around themselves their followers (sheep) and their power will disappear.
When I played Dungeons & Dragons (secretly because of church) as a kid I learned of the concept of a god that only exists and has power to exist when he has people that believe in him. The more people that believe the more power it has. That was interesting and I thought about that ... and it reminded me of something. Of church! I thought how could a real god need any people to even exist let alone believe in him? And I thought you know the christan god does not need the people to believe to exist... but the christian church does. And the extremists are only a subgroup of the whole of christianity so they need all the people they can get their hands on. And that is why they believe in this loyalty above truth thing. Cause they NEED to retain their followers or else... they will simply disappear. And that is why they fight progress, science, knowledge. If people learn what black people, gay people, chinese people, crazy people, ALL PEOPLE ... then you learn that they are alot like YOU and if you do not have a HARD and CLEAR WALL between them and YOU then you cannot maintain that belief any more... it only holds true in the darkness of ignorance. Without this whole monstrosity that we see out front on TV/PC everyday they will simply disappear... which is exactly what we who are NOT them should want... their version of christanity and outlook on life to just disappear. We CAN and SHOULD go on through the rest of humanities development without prejudice.
June 5th, 2006 at 6:23 pmAs for comparisons between the gospels the authors disagreed on the most fundamental and important events e.g. the Ascension;
a. Luke tells us that Jesus ascended to heaven from the town of Bethany (Luke 24:50-1).
b. Matthew suggests it was from a mount in Galilee, a hundred kilometres to the north (Matt. 28:16-20).
c. Mark says it was from a room in a house seemingly in Jerusalem (Mark 16:14-19).
d. The famous version of the Ascension from the Mount of Olives comes from the Acts of the Apostles (Acts 1:4-12) which is just outside Jerusalem.
e. The gospel of John makes no mention of the episode whatsoever!
well well, I may have argued myself into a corner, if Jesus was in all these different places at the same time it looks like there are miracles after all......
June 5th, 2006 at 6:28 pmIf people accept Christ was not historical, others may question what else in the bible is not true and take the bible less literally - helping to avoid religious extremism.
Comment by British Gary
Ya I agree with that. I have read alot of Buddha/Zen as well but I dont take any of it as literal history.. cause in reality we just dont know. That is probably why it is better for people to just concentrate on the parabels and koans. Life lessons.
No one person/symbol/logo/team/name/entity is more than an illusion we hold entirely in our minds. Nothing to kill someone over or steal their liberties over.
I still like assuming Jesus as a person is real... but I guess it is the difference between custom and dogma.
June 5th, 2006 at 6:32 pmI love revealing inconsistencies and untruths, here’s another list from the ‘infallible’ book for extremists…..
Comment by British Gary
And where did that get Socrates?
June 5th, 2006 at 6:35 pmWe CAN and SHOULD go on through the rest of humanities development without prejudice.
Comment by Gerald Gibson — June 5, 2006 @ 6:23 pm
It would help if we overcome the political and financial clout of the extremists. Trust schools are a serious problem. I don't know if that's what you call them in America.
When you consider the number of religions that each support their own God (and declare theirs to be the only true God compared to all others whom they consider to be false), Dr. Carret came to this conclusion:
"The matter can be put like this: either God wanted to let himself be known by man or he didn't want to be. If he wanted man to know him and he didn't succeed [atheists] this can only demonstrate that he is impotent; an impotent God is inadmissible. If God didn't want to be known then all religions are false. If God didn't want either one, then we have to conclude that God does not exist".
June 5th, 2006 at 6:37 pmHi Gary,
How much longer until you get the book? Couple more weeks about?
I think there are a lot of inconsistencies in the histories of Jesus. Bethlehem was a necropolis - not a quint little community. If I were to give the benefit of the doubt, it would be in that the region and culture was big on folklore - word of mouth passing of information - which we know is subject to all sorts of fallability, exaggerations, and the sort.
If Jesus was real, he was a man and nothing more. If there is a god it exists beyond our ability to comprehend or experience it. better to just focus on living your life and not wasting so much time on invisible idols that won't help abused children or cnacer patients...
Will be interesting to see what the courts do with this case and how it plays out.
Keep us posted. It is interesting - and precidential...
June 5th, 2006 at 6:42 pmWhy are we talking about Jesus? Jesus Jesus Jesus. Am I the only one on this planet that is sick to death of everything that goes on being a reflection on Jesus Christ? Here's four words that, if followed, would eliminate the need for any of this: Live and let live. It's easy. Perhaps too easy?
June 5th, 2006 at 6:50 pmNo one person/symbol/logo/team/name/entity is more than an illusion we hold entirely in our minds.
Comment by Gerald Gibson — June 5, 2006 @ 6:32 pm
I think the same about country borders, we're all human and we've created a superb system to ensure prejudice. The best thing to come from borders is world cup footie.
I still like assuming Jesus as a person is real…
Understandable - it's in your comfort zone. Doesn't make it true though, the evidence is already mountainous and growing. Jesus doesn't have to be real for a person to live their life by a code of honour and dignity. I think people who live a moral life without religion are far more courageous. Living the code or spirit of Christianity is a wonderful way of life, if sincere, why is it necessary to turn a philosophy into a religion?
And where did that get Socrates?
LOL! There's quite a few in here who are Gadflies. I think TP is a swarm of them.
June 5th, 2006 at 6:52 pmWhy are we talking about Jesus?
Comment by Pinky — June 5, 2006 @ 6:50 pm
Because it's relevant to this thread. It's the motivation for the extremists trying to erode your civil rights. I do everything I can to tackle extremists. If you really believe in 'live and let live', then why are you protesting about the erosion in gay's civil rights on this particular thread? If you support 'live and let live', then what about the extremist's point of view?
June 5th, 2006 at 7:07 pm#134 Gerald Gibson
June 5th, 2006 at 7:13 pmFor what it's worth,I am in total agreement with you.
Our founding fathers were for the most part, deists, and they studied philospohers. They had the experience of living under tyranny and they used their collective intelligence, thought and will to write our D of I and Const. under which we live today.
As for the Bible, who knows if Jesus really lived? All the stories were passed down verbally for decades. So were Aesop's fables. So were the ancient Greek and Roman myths. The Bible has been written and re-written and edited over time. Politics played a role through time as much as it does today.
What's important is the message. The message of Jesus is being lost today; the sermon on the Mount, the compassion, and the charity. Instead, today the focus is on the wrath, punishment, and authoritarian old testament.
#136 BG
June 5th, 2006 at 7:16 pmYou mention ‘On The Beach’ . Wow! I saw that movie many years ago and it has come back to my mind many times in the past years. It left quite an impression on me at the time, and obviously it still does.
No one ever mentions that movie any more - glad to have you mention it.
Keep us posted. It is interesting - and precidential…
Comment by unbelievable — June 5, 2006 @ 6:42 pm
will do, Luigi knew his case would fail in Italy but went ahead as it was, in his words, 'going through the motions' to get to a fair trial. He wrote a damning letter to the vatican declaring open war, boatloads of evidence, long and detailed and in pidgeon English but bloody good reading. In the end he wrote, "Go to Hell, cursed bastards." The vatican has so far refused to comment and it seems they are having a tough time proving his evidence wrong.
Allegorical literature and inserting fictitious characters into a historical setting was popular 2000 years ago.
The book should arrive later next week, looking forward to it!
June 5th, 2006 at 7:17 pmEverybody knows that the radical right doesn't care about real Americans. They just cook up some "imminent" crisis - abortion, illegal immigration, gay marriage - and tell the American people to be afraid. Even that isn't working this time though. When will the public wake up and realize that the guys in charge are insane? Come on.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
June 5th, 2006 at 7:18 pmA bogoted gay marriage ban meets its deseved end: Destruction - for now
Give us your opininon.
Right now on SSA
‘On The Beach’ . - glad to have you mention it.
Comment by Marie — June 5, 2006 @ 7:16 pm
It was recommended to me by worfeus, I think the great guy is posting under flavius worfeus at present. My wife and I cried like babies. I want to watch it again but my wife said "once is enough." I've given the film to friends to watch (and they've now passed it on to their friends) so I'll have to wait a while.
I think everyone who calls themself a conservative or republican should watch that film. In fact, I think all schools should show that film to final year kids in their last week of school.
June 5th, 2006 at 7:41 pmon gay marriage; LIVE AND LET LIVE!
June 5th, 2006 at 7:45 pmAt the time of early Christianity the Pagans were none-too-pleased with what the Christians were saying about Jesus. You see, Pagans were pointing out that they'd been saying the same things about a stack of Jesus-like Gods for centuries before. Not only that, but a lot of the people at that time no longer believed in such Gods (although some still did) e.g. Attis, Mithra, Osiris, Dionysus and Hercules.
Pagans who worshipped Mithra followed the doctrine of Mithraism. The Persian god Mithra, revered by many Romans, was said to have been born of a virgin in a sacred birth-cave of the Rock on December 25, witnessed by shepherds and Magi bringing gifts.
He raised the dead, healed the sick, made the blind see and the lame walk, and exorcised devils. Mithra celebrated a Last Supper with his twelve disciples before he died.
His image was buried in a rock tomb, but he was withdrawn and said to live again (Resurrected). Mithras triumph and Ascension to heaven were celebrated at the spring equinox (Easter).
Mithraism held that all souls pre-existed in the ethereal regions with God, and inhabited a body upon birth. Life then becomes the great struggle between good and evil, spirit and body, ending in judgment, with the elect being saved.
Before returning to heaven, Mithra had his Last Supper with his twelve disciples. In memory, his worshipers partook of a sacramental meal of bread marked with a cross. This was one of seven Mithraic sacraments, alleged to be the models for the Christian seven sacraments. It was called mized and in Latin missa, meaning "to be released", and in later ecclesiastical Latin, "Mass".
Mithra followers had crosses already branded on their foreheads. In art, the halo was a well-known depiction of Mithra, a true sun-god.
so how did the early Christians justify their 'Christ God' as a real God? You're gonna love this.....
June 5th, 2006 at 7:51 pmWhat makes this particular Saviour different from all the many Saviours who existed long before?
According to Justin Martyr (church father c. 100 A.D. – c. 165 A.D.), there were three reasons why Christ was the only God worthy of worship;
1. Christians only say true things.
2. Christ became human.
3. The Devil copied Pagan attributes and traditions of Christ - in advance of Christ - because the Devil knew Jesus' day would come.
This is the FORMAL, OFFICIAL explanation to this day!
It sounds ludicrous but Christian leaders really did use (and still do) a 'Satan did it' excuse to explain the unoriginality of the Christian religion. This was the actual written quote from Martyr when explaining 'Christ is the true God….';
"not because we say the same things as these writers said [Pagans], but because we say true things: and [secondly] that Jesus Christ is the only proper Son who has been begotten by God, being His Word and first-begotten, and power; and, becoming man according to His will, He taught us these things for the conversion and restoration of the human race: and [thirdly] that before He became a man among men, some, influenced by the demons before mentioned, related beforehand, through the instrumentality of the poets, those circumstances as having really happened, which, having fictitiously devised, they narrated, in the same manner as they have caused to be fabricated the scandalous reports against us of infamous and impious actions"- First Apology, Chapter XXIII
When discussing Pagan beliefs, Martyr continued, "Those who believe these things we pity, and those who invented them we know to be devils." - First Apology, Chapter XXV
evidence from original translated manuscripts
June 5th, 2006 at 8:00 pmHere are 2 quotes from Justin Martyr;
"when we say also that the Word, who is the first-birth of God, was produced without sexual union, and that He, Jesus Christ, our Teacher, was crucified and died, and rose again, and ascended into heaven, we propound nothing different from what you believe regarding those whom you esteem sons of Jupiter [Zeus]." - First Apology, Chapter XXI
"And if we even affirm that He was born of a virgin, accept this in common with what you accept of Perseus. And in that we say that He made whole the lame, the paralytic, and those born blind, we seem to say what is very similar to the deeds said to have been done by Aesculapius." - First Apology, Chapter XXII
read the proof for yourselves
June 5th, 2006 at 8:04 pmEven worse, other ancient people thought Jesus was never a real person at all and wrote about it:
In Hebrews 8:4 it states "if Jesus HAD been on earth, he would not even have been a priest." (emphasis added).
No matter how one tries to detect a feasible qualification to this phrase, there is no denying that the writer seems to be saying that Jesus was never on earth. The Greek is “ei men oun en epi ges,†which is literally: “Now, if accordingly he were on earth . . .†The verb en is the imperfect, which is strictly speaking a past tense.
June 5th, 2006 at 8:11 pmThere are no Roman records of Pontius Pilate ordering the execution of Jesus. None.
Even the existence of Pontius Pilate is contentious because nowhere is he referenced in the comprehensive, official, Roman literature at the time Jesus was said to have lived.
June 5th, 2006 at 8:13 pmIn fact, there are no records of Jesus WHATSOEVER that actually dates to the time He is said to have lived.
It is also outrageous to suggest in any historically accurate context, that Pontius Pilate would let a known killer of Romans go – and let him be thrown to a mob – after trying to get him off the hook (almost asking for a vote)!
The factual, historical existence of Jesus Christ cannot be confirmed.
There is no body, no archaeological evidence, no definite tomb, no Roman records, no records written during his life or immediately afterwards, the first records (Saul of Tarsus) written about Christ were written decades after his death and discussed Jesus only as folklore in a mythological setting, all written records decades after this (gospels) seriously disagree with each other.
The Church admits Jesus has many serious parallels with Pagan Gods and officially states Jesus is the true God because the Devil imitated the Pagan Gods.
If early Christians, who were closer to the events than we are, said the story of Jesus is "nothing different" from paganism, it stands to reason modern sceptics like myself are not faulted for suspecting the same thing?
June 5th, 2006 at 8:16 pmIt is now evident that Jesus Christ never existed. He is a mythological character who has been inserted into history by those who lived at least a century after it was claimed he had lived. This was a common process called 'midrash'.
Most likely those responsible for authoring such allegorical stories (second/third generation removed from A.D. 33) are unknown and Irenaeus c. A.D. 180 attributed them to Mark, Matthew, Luke and John which explains the enormous inconsistencies between them. It is also probable that the unknown authors used a common source when compiling the gospels which explains the correlation of Jesus' sayings.
The claims made by the New Testament and Christians about the resurrection are presented as facts, when in reality they are merely matters of faith for which there is nothing close to the kind of evidence that would be necessary to establish them as facts.
The death of Jesus, the empty tomb, the postresurrection appearances, the willingness of the apostles to die for their beliefs -these are all touted as historical facts when in reality they are nothing more than faiths that Christians base on an unjustified assumption that the New Testament documents are historically accurate in everything they reported.
You must go back to earlier written records than the New Testament and compare them. That's Saul of Tarsus – the Apostle Paul and he wrote of Jesus as a myth only.
June 5th, 2006 at 8:22 pmIf you cannot prove Jesus Christ DID walk this Earth, then He didn't – it's as simple as that.
Jesus Christ would then become as mythological as Zeus or Osiris or Medusa or the Tooth Fairy.
If Jesus did not exist then Christianity would be as mythological as Egyptian, Greek and Pagan Gods. Christianity would not be a matter of belief, it would be a matter of make believe.
Why? Because to believe in something you MUST have logical proof of its existence e.g. I have never seen the Eiffel tower with my own eyes but I BELIEVE it exists because there IS logical proof of its existence.
You cannot 'believe' in something without logical proof of its existence – you are merely sharing an imaginary image e.g. Werewolves.
If it's a religious image, you would need faith – you would be choosing to believe something religious is real even though there is no logical proof of its existence. That is anathema to a thinking, rational mind.
Faith is a word that describes make believe of a religious image, rather than make believe of, say, a Werewolf.
June 5th, 2006 at 8:25 pmIn all of his 80,000 words, Saul of Tarsus never mentioned Mary, Joseph, John the Baptist, Herod, Pontius Pilate, trials, Bethlehem, entrance into Jerusalem, earthquakes, empty tombs, angels, ANY of the miracles, ANYTHING Jesus said or even a description of Jesus!
So what DID Saul of Tarsus mention about the greatest man ever to walk the Earth?
Saul wrote about Christ being put on the cross, the resurrection and the ascension but DID NOT PLACE THESE 3 EVENTS ON EARTH. Paul wrote that the crucifixion, resurrection and ascension occurred in a mythological (celestial) realm!
June 5th, 2006 at 8:33 pmSaul of Tarsus aka Apostle Paul. What Paul wrote is extremely significant for the following reasons;
June 5th, 2006 at 8:38 pma. Paul wrote c. A.D. 50 (less than 20 years after Christ's death) and constitutes the FIRST record of Christ
b. Paul wrote a volume of 80,000 words – enough to allow a thorough understanding of Paul's message
c. To a rational, logical mind, the earliest or first written records of events MUST be the most accurate because they are fresher in the mind and least likely to adulteration i.e. exaggeration/addition by others later.
LUCRETIUS, who continued Epicurus' work, in his "De Rerum Natura" destroys every concept of divinity by writing: "The principle that we can place over all others is that nothing is born from nothing for a divine power (ex nihilo nihil). The fear that currently dominates all mortals and makes them slaves to the religions depends on the fact that they see things occur on earth that they do not understand and so they attribute them to divine power. It is only following the conviction that brings us to affirm that nothing can be created from nothing that we can discover the object of our research whose result will demonstrate how everything occurs without the intervention of God".
"God is the name which from the beginning of time man has given to his ignorance." (Max Nordeau)
"It is absurd to admit the existence of a creator since it is impossible not only to demonstrate but also to imagine that nothing transforms itself into something and that something transforms itself into nothing." (Enciclopeda Anarchica).
"Nothing is created and nothing is destroyed but everything is transformed." affirmed Lavoisier demonstrating it scientifically.
June 5th, 2006 at 8:44 pmIf anyone at any time wants to prove me wrong please use links and logic as I always enjoy a good debate. It's 1.45am here so I'm off to bed.
June 5th, 2006 at 8:46 pmJust because you do not understand does not mean others don't. You're just making me look like I know what I'm talking about because I was able to use my own words and explain exactly what happened - like a professional. You're making me look GREAT! And you - like a liar.
You don't even know why you're foolish for laughing about facts! LOL!
June 5th, 2006 at 11:01 pmAnd don't come back!
June 5th, 2006 at 11:36 pmTo all, it is late . Here is where it is at. The only problem the United States has is flag buring gay Muslim Spanish speaking non Faux ? almost news watching retard Bible thumping piss pot people that read books.
June 5th, 2006 at 11:47 pmComplete losers IRI and MA(Gay guy) will be back tomorrow--it must be really sick to be like them. How do you two make it through the day?? Don't the two of you wish you had a life and friends?? Of course I just read you can have a complete virtual on-line life, however I hear that IRI and MA even there are scum bags.
June 5th, 2006 at 11:54 pmGO TO SLEEP , you are all FU*KED up but
Comment by Joefriday — June 5, 2006 @ 11:58 pm
Look who's talking - mind your own business potty mouth.
June 6th, 2006 at 12:01 amWhy are we talking about Jesus? Jesus Jesus Jesus. Am I the only one on this planet that is sick to death of everything that goes on being a reflection on Jesus Christ? Here’s four words that, if followed, would eliminate the need for any of this: Live and let live. It’s easy. Perhaps too easy?
Comment by Pinky
I would be happy to use Buddha or Ghandi as examples .. but I know alot of people read this stuff that is more familiar with Jesus... in addition I think it is time to take Jesus back from the extremists that use him to cover their unJesus unAmerican ways.
June 6th, 2006 at 12:05 amDan, Why would Bush attend the funeral for embryos in a petri dish if he has yet to attend a funeral of our men and women killed in Iraq?
June 6th, 2006 at 1:27 am#362- Finally, something that warrants a reply. Martha Stewart's stock sale had absolutley no effect whatsoever on the illegal actions of Imclone's CEO. He knew way before Martha did that the stock was about to take a hit. He took care of himself, first, then let some of his friends, and investors in on the story. Martha was a warning by BushCo. An example of how much power they had. And really now, did her crime really merit 5 months of 'house arrest' after the time she served in prison? I don't love Martha, but that was total BS.
June 6th, 2006 at 3:38 amI know, I am living in the Sodom and Gomorra of the world ..... according to some ignorant people who don't know how things like euthernasia, abortion, gay marriage and soft drugs are regulated here.
But in this discussion I am missing one point.
Here in my country we have two types of marriage :
- the marriage for the church. This one is only open for a man and a woman.
- the marriage for the state. This one is open for all couples.
Some couples are married in both ways, most are only married for the state.
The marriage for the state has all the legal consequences regarding inheritance, child recognition etc. The marriage for the church has only the religious consequences.
So why don't you implement such a split also. It will solve the debate on this.
June 6th, 2006 at 3:58 amBritish Gary
Pontius did exist, in fact a few years after Jesus he massacred a bunch of people while they were in his territory for a religious holiday. This went somewhat beyond the pail even for Rome's tastes and so he was redeployed elsewhere.
This is of course, at odds with the merciful chap he was during Jesus' trial.
What didn't exist, mainly because it was totally stupid, was the tradition of clemency that the Church used to blame the Jews for Jesus' death. I mean, think about this one logically, you are in a volatile area where the only guys you crucify are rebel leaders, and so you let the rebel leader with the most popular support go? It doesn't exactly make much sense now does it?
June 6th, 2006 at 5:57 am[...] Then there’s the folks at the Center for American Progress who conduct some poll & then claim the American people don’t care about Gay Marriage. Why? Because Americans apparently don’t think its the post “important” issue. So our government is supposed to only do things that Americans consider to be the most important. [...]
June 6th, 2006 at 8:19 amPontius did exist
Comment by Bruce Gorton — June 6, 2006 @ 5:57 am
All evidence for the existence of Pontius has been debunked. Full stop. If you have new evidence for his existence please post it here and I will research it. You'd be amazed at just how much/what people assume to be historically accurate and is anything but.
You don’t even know why you’re foolish for laughing about facts! LOL!
Comment by unbelievable — June 5, 2006 @ 11:01 pm
And don’t come back!
Comment by unbelievable — June 5, 2006 @ 11:36 pm
did you write this as it seems out of character for yourself?
I think it's a computer glitch and you did not write this so whoever did, please post proof of why I am foolish rather than name-calling and we can debate the issue like adults. You will find I have stacks of evidence to support my facts and in a detailed discussion how quickly I can debunk any claims that Jesus was real. Please ensure you know your historical facts from faith.
June 6th, 2006 at 10:42 amJust because you do not understand does not mean others don’t. You’re just making me look like I know what I’m talking about because I was able to use my own words and explain exactly what happened - like a professional. You’re making me look GREAT! And you - like a liar.
whoever wrote this please provide proof, you know, actual proof with links to source information rather than writing a useless opinion. I have provided links to source material (translated scripts by scholars) and wrote multiple references. I can PROVE my facts, where's your proof?
June 6th, 2006 at 11:00 amBritish Gary:
The whole sequence is off because of deletions.
June 6th, 2006 at 11:03 amThose statements were not directed at you.
For what it’s worth,I am in total agreement with you.
Our founding fathers were for the most part, deists, and they studied philospohers.
Comment by Marie — June 5, 2006 @ 7:13 pm
The founding fathers did not have access to information publicly available today. If they knew then what we know now, I think the founding fathers would have been anything but deists, agnostics at best. The founding fathers were deceived and swamped with misinformation in a time when christianity was ruthlessly enforced. I think the founding fathers were too logical and thought-critical to be deists with today's level of information.
June 6th, 2006 at 11:46 amThose statements were not directed at you.
Comment by Denny — June 6, 2006 @ 11:03 am
OK, thanks Denny. I'm disappointed they're not in a way - because I was looking forward to a more detailed debate. Everything I have written here is only scratching the surface. It's just been an introduction.
June 6th, 2006 at 11:49 amGary--You should probably go to a more current thread if you'd like a discussion;maybe today's Think Fast.I'd love to talk more but I've a few things to do now.
June 6th, 2006 at 12:10 pmIf it's any consolation, I did read all your posts from last night.
Why are we talking about Jesus?
Comment by Pinky — June 5, 2006 @ 6:50 pm
Because it’s relevant to this thread. It’s the motivation for the extremists trying to erode your civil rights. I do everything I can to tackle extremists. If you really believe in ‘live and let live’, then why are you protesting about the erosion in gay’s civil rights on this particular thread? If you support ‘live and let live’, then what about the extremist’s point of view?
Comment by British Gary — June 5, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
BG: The extremists are entitled to their beliefs. What they are not entitled to is forcing others to believe what they believe. They are not entitled to enslaving any one minority group because they don't like that group. So I say "live and let live" and I mean: Live your life as you see fit, and let others do the same. Why am I protesting the extremists here? Because they are attempting to force their beliefs down our throats. If they kept their traps shut, and lived their lives full of as much hate as they can muster, then I say right on. Go ahead and hate privately, and I don't have an issue with that. When the hate becomes public, then I'm going to speak out.
June 6th, 2006 at 2:40 pmPinky, I understand that, but the issue is that the extremists point of view incorporates dominating other people - that is a critical part of the extremists point of view. The problem I have with that statement is the 'let live' bit.
To live and let live, you must therefore allow the extremists their point of view, which is to dominate other people.
Otherwise what you mean is 'live and let live' within limits, or put another way, live and sometimes let live - which is not really 'live and let live' per se.
I agree with your philosophy, not your statement. I argue there is no 'live and let live' in a world populated by extremists as well as moderates. It's better to say, live and let moderates live.
June 6th, 2006 at 5:39 pmBG: Okay by me.
June 6th, 2006 at 6:28 pmNice post!
——
http://www.htlounge.net
News: Gadgets, High Tech, Automobiles, Software, Games, Players, Phones, Multimedia …
http://www.softdatabase.net
June 7th, 2006 at 6:47 pm10.000 Free software downloads: Freeware and Shareware
[...] Polls have shown the moral concerns of the American people do not mirror those of the religious right. Asked to name the most serious moral crisis in America today, 22 percent said “corruption in government/business” and 17 percent said “greed and materialism” or “people too focused on themselves”; only 3 percent cited “abortion and homosexuality.” [...]
December 21st, 2006 at 4:10 pmNO GAY MARRIAGE IN UNITED STATES
February 22nd, 2007 at 2:01 pmGay Incest Gay Cumshots Gay Jock
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 17th, 2008 at 6:56 amAuto Loans
Utilize bad credit auto loans to have an opportunity to shop for a current Mazda in 5 hours by utilizing a wonderful group!
March 19th, 2008 at 7:22 amKds Bbs Pics Russian Child Models Ls Girls
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 19th, 2008 at 1:19 pmbusiness introduction letter
Some weblog software programs, such as Wordpress, Movable Type and Community Server, support automatic pingbacks where all the links
March 20th, 2008 at 1:35 amhisham abbas
Man i love reading your blog, interesting posts !
March 21st, 2008 at 4:53 amcorporate logo gifts
I found your post comments while searching Google. Very relevant especially as this is not an issue which a lot of peaople are conversant with.
March 21st, 2008 at 2:10 pmHealth Insurance Gulf Breeze Insurance Flood Insurance
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 24th, 2008 at 3:07 pmwc towel
Nice Post... do you know what is the first? Maybe You can se My Post Here
March 24th, 2008 at 7:02 pmGas Saving Clinic
This article sounds well, but how everything is related together?
March 25th, 2008 at 1:01 amSex Free Sex Pictures Office Sex
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 27th, 2008 at 9:24 amKds Bbs Pics Underage Porn Kid Sex
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 27th, 2008 at 8:17 pmGay Sex Gay Ass Gay Ass
I can not agree with you in 100% regarding some thoughts, but you got good point of view
March 28th, 2008 at 3:21 am