ThinkFast AM: June 12, 2006
ThinkFast AM: June 12, 2006
The neoconservative think tank Project for a New American Century “looks to be heading toward closing” because there is a sense of “goal accomplished.” Founders included Dick Cheney, Donald Rumsfeld, and “Scooter” Libby, who argued in 1998 that “removing Saddam Hussein and his regime…now needs to become the aim of American foreign policy.”
In a federal district court in Detroit today, ACLU lawyers will argue that the NSA’s wiretapping programs violate the U.S. Constitution and the 1978 Foreign Intelligence Surveillance Act. The ACLU is asking the program be halted, while Justice Department lawyers have asked the judge to dismiss the suit because it would reveal state secrets.
The proportion of students who are leaving college with some level of unmanageable debt — debt they can’t repay without significant hardship — is swelling. The average college senior graduated this year with more than $19,000 in debt. Policy choices – like the freezing of the minimum wage and the shift in the tax burden from the rich to the rest – “have starved public services while leaving ordinary Americans more dependent than ever on debt.â€
With Bush administration support, states are now moving aggressively to transform Medicaid, the nation’s largest public health insurance program. Having won greater freedom from federal rules, states are adding fees, restricting benefits, and privatizing parts of the program that covers 55 million poor and disabled Americans.
After the suicides of three Guantanamo detainees, the European Union has called for the prison to be closed. U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy Colleen Graffy drew criticism for describing the suicides as a “good PR move to draw attention.”
“Iran said Sunday that it accepted some parts of a Western offer aimed at getting Tehran to drop its nuclear program, but it rejected others,” and said that there were points that were “unclear,” such as the offer to aid Iran in developing a uranium enrichment program.
According to a national study financed by the Justice Department, “Arab-Americans reported an increasing sense of victimization, suspicion of government and law enforcement, and concerns about protecting their civil liberties†due to a series of post-9/11 policies have sown fear among the community.
The Iraq war’s profound legacy across the Arab world: “fear and suspicion over Iraq’s repercussions, a generation that casts the Bush administration’s policy as an unquestioned war on Islam, and a subterranean reserve of men who…declare that the fight against the United States in Iraq is a model for the future.â€
“China’s sales of military vehicles and weapons to Sudan, Nepal, and Burma have aggravated conflicts and abetted violence and repressive rule in those countries,” according to a new Amnesty International report.
And finally: Public health and environmental activists have pledged to fight plans to create a temporary nuclear rod storage site on a reservation of the Goshute Indians. But Utah Governor Jon Huntsman, Jr. (R) is going one step further, having “vowed to lie down on the railroad tracks” to stop trains with the nuclear waste from reaching the site.
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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Every time you raise grant and loan limits its an excuse for colleges to raise tuition. And the state schools even with the liberal stranglehold are no better.
June 12th, 2006 at 9:22 amI won’t be sheading any tears for PNAC.
June 12th, 2006 at 9:23 amAs soon as the EU builds a ne prison I agree it should be closed.
June 12th, 2006 at 9:26 amIf all the terrorists at Guantanamo commited suicide we could close it even sooner.
June 12th, 2006 at 9:29 amBig question today should be WHY was Zarqawi beaten to death instead of captured alive? Reports from an Iraqi witness claim that Zarqawi was in an ambulance when US Special Forces troops arrived on the scene. His stretcher was pulled out of the ambulance, a blanket was wrapped around his head, then he was punched in the chest and stomach until he died. Who ordered a wounded man to be terminated in that fashion? There needs to be an investigation!
June 12th, 2006 at 9:33 amthey should be made to read this blog every day. thoughts of suicide will come in a more rapid pace
June 12th, 2006 at 9:34 amis your tinfoil hat on straight?
June 12th, 2006 at 9:37 am“The proportion of students who are leaving college with some level of unmanageable debt — debt they can’t repay without significant hardship ”
Prob. mirrors a rise in the % of students with lib. arts degrees
“Iran said Sunday that it accepted some parts of a Western offer aimed at getting Tehran to drop its nuclear program, but it rejected others”
June 12th, 2006 at 9:38 amThe part where we give them stuff they accept, the part where they give up stuff they reject. Thats my guess
accurate guess
June 12th, 2006 at 9:39 am“they should be made to read this blog every day. thoughts of suicide will come in a more rapid pace”
OOOhhhh, burn.
June 12th, 2006 at 9:40 amSomeone shhould investigate as to the whereabouts of that dude’s brain
June 12th, 2006 at 9:44 amI won’t be so relieved to see the demise of the PNAC because I doubt they will go away – I expect them to morph into something equally as sinister and as nefarious .
June 12th, 2006 at 9:48 am“the conflict is framed as one between the faithful and infidels, justice and injustice” How dare the infidels fight back in our war to destroy them. Godless homosexuals.
June 12th, 2006 at 9:48 amthe old whore saddam hussein is worn out, time for a new one.
June 12th, 2006 at 9:49 amIt is amazing that anyone would call three tragic deaths “a good PR move”. What about human tragedy? The loss to friends and family? The despair that must have driven these three to kill themselves.
June 12th, 2006 at 9:50 amAfter the suicides of three Guantanamo detainees
Time for it to be shut and the neocons jailed
or iraq/Afghanies should capture americans and start torturing them too
June 12th, 2006 at 9:52 am#15, when I read that comment (A good PR move) by the spokesman, I also was astonished at the callus and inhuman attitude.
June 12th, 2006 at 9:53 amTobey
“or iraq/Afghanies should capture americans and start torturing them too”
Ask Nick Berg about the iraqi views on torture.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:00 amIt was a PR move. Hello. Unfortunately it is forbidden so no virgins for them.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:02 amSounds like our representatives don’t want to hear from us – particularly if we are sending Emails to them through MoveOn, Causenet, Common Cause, NION, and other groups:
June 12th, 2006 at 10:08 amThe House Chief Administration Officer has announced a new program which will stymie automated, mass email programs. The new system, if added to Congressional websites, will require the site visitor to complete a ‘logic puzzle’ to reduce the number of messages sent via automatic programs, today’s ROLL CALL REPORTS.
Raw Story
With Bush administration support, states are now moving aggressively to transform Medicaid, the nation’s largest public health insurance program. Having won greater freedom from federal rules, states are adding fees, restricting benefits, and privatizing parts of the program that covers 55 million poor and disabled Americans.
And there are those who say a national health care system is a bad idea. Ignorance is a blessing for some I guess.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:09 am#6 LOL!
June 12th, 2006 at 10:15 amThe American sharecropper society is blooming. Corporations have suckered the majority to live in debt from the time they leave home until they die. I do believe that this is what Bush had in mind when he said that we must become an ownership society. Another euphemism that works well with all of the others that we currently have.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:18 amI do believe that these PNAC people are pushing for war with Iran. The name may change but the goal of these people is the same. Their puppet think tanks are already softening up the American people so that a strike on Iran would be popular.
This group is the reason that our world will never be safe again. They have spread hate between nations and have their GWOT in order to promote corporatism (which is in fact fascism) to allow companies the right to do as they please on the soil of any sovereign nation regardless of the will of the people. They hold the power to use covert or overt force when they wish.
This is the group that not only wanted a new pearl harbor, but also was determined to put a permanent American presense in the middle east for the control of oil from the Balkans to the Caspian Sea.
Please go to their website and view their goals for yourselves. They have also nearly turned the Presidency into a dictatorship as the three branches of government have bowed to the wishes of the Administration and by the multitude of executive orders from George W. Bush that give him the right to do as he pleases. All branches of government are above the law and are not answerable to the people by the decision of the Supreme Court. This country has gone from a National Security State in 1947 after the passage of the National Security Act, to a Secret State of privilaged information that is locked out of the view from even our congress and senate.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:19 amThe neoconservative think tank Project for a New American Century “looks to be heading toward closing†because there is a sense of “goal accomplished.â€
I see they avoided the phrase “Mission Accomplished.”
June 12th, 2006 at 10:19 amAfter the suicides of three Guantanamo detainees, the European Union has called for the prison to be closed. U.S. Deputy Assistant Secretary of State for Public Diplomacy Colleen Graffy drew criticism for describing the suicides as a “good PR move to draw attention.â€
We all know these prisoners have nothing else going on, so they spend their time working on public relations — and committing suicide.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:25 am#25 Zoo, I believe they used goal instaef of mission because they want to mend the bridges with Europe, and it is world cup season.
“GOOOOOOAAAAAAAALLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLLL accomplished” was the actual qoute.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:26 amJust plain mad,
June 12th, 2006 at 10:32 amThats right its all th fault of Preident Bush, it has nothing to do with the will of Allah that all you homosexuals in America be laid to rest and the rest of you be subject to his law.
#28 – My first laugh of the day, thanks Squeegy.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:33 amI see another day under Republican leadership bringing us even more good news… (Well, we know it’s bad news, they’re just spinning it to sound like it’s all positive).
June 12th, 2006 at 10:34 amWELCOME BACK JUDD & CREW!
June 12th, 2006 at 10:34 amYou have to give it to Stephen Colbert. He put it in a nutshell: “Bill Kristol, how is that New American Century?”:
http://thinkprogress.org/2006/04/28/colbert-to-kristol/
June 12th, 2006 at 10:35 amWell, we know it’s bad news, they’re just spinning it to sound like it’s all positive.
Comment by unbelievable
*eyes glazing over & droning voice*
June 12th, 2006 at 10:37 amI don’t know what you’re talking about, unbelievable, I only see good news, and I feel the need to go to church….and take a handful of Valium.
“…debt they can’t repay without significant hardship â€
Prob. mirrors a rise in the % of students with lib. arts degrees
Comment by squegeeboo — June 12, 2006 @ 9:38 am
excuse me??? for your information – my son graduated in 4 years with a lib. arts degree in CHEMISTRY… he is now in grad school at berkeley, after also being accepted to programs (full ride, btw) at MIT, harvard, scripps and cal tech… he will be going on to cal tech for post doc work next year… my daughter is studying BIO-CHEM for pre-med, and will be graduating next year with a lib. arts degree…
June 12th, 2006 at 10:42 amwhat is your problem, geek boy?
Public health and environmental activists have pledged to fight plans to create a temporary nuclear rod storage site on a reservation of the Goshute Indians.
When does the United States government stop persocuting these people? It’s got them isolated in some rather remote areas of the nation, and still it wants their land? For a garbage dump at that…
June 12th, 2006 at 10:42 amFirst of all isn’t ironic regarding the PNAC , that the century just started and they’re ready to close up shop. Yeah and John Poindexter and TTIC went away too didn’t they?
June 12th, 2006 at 10:43 ami should elaborate and say that at the University of Illinois it is called “College of Liberal Arts and Sciences”
June 12th, 2006 at 10:44 amI feel the need to go to church….and take a handful of Valium.
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 10:37 am
Big Brother must be very proud of you… No cages with rats for you… Or in your case I guess it would be wedding paraphernalia :)
June 12th, 2006 at 10:48 amWELCOME BACK JUDD & CREW!
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 10:34 am
Ditto!
June 12th, 2006 at 10:50 amRight out of the fever swamp this morning! Hey if you are a college graduate and can only garner the minimum wage then YOU wasted your time in college. If you are in college at this time a little advice: There are many more jobs available for a Business or Science majors than there are for say Women/Latin/African-American studies majors. Also if we had three prisoners out of over four hundred commit suicide that is a shame. Maybe we need to send more rope to Gitmo to assists those that want to meet Allah in person. Perhaps we could start an “Adopt a Jihadi†program and we could send them a little care package or sleeping pills, a noose, or past Pelosi/Boxer speeches? All are know to be helpful in ending your life.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:50 amLloyd’s of London (what a bunch of wacky liberals!) has released a report titled Climate Change: Adapt or Bust that lists actions that the insurance industry needs to take to survive, including “kickstart work to reduce CO2 emissions.” Via Green Car Congress.
More Bush administration meddling with science: “But after his research appeared in the online version of the journal Science in January, the Oregon State University graduate student began to feel like a lightning rod. A federal agency briefly yanked funding for his project, irate politicians and timber interests e-mailed Donato’s dean to complain, congressmen grilled him, and professors at his own university tried unsuccessfully to keep the paper from being published in the print edition of Science.” (from the LA Times)
June 12th, 2006 at 10:53 amI have absolutely no tolerance for purposeful ignorance.
June 12th, 2006 at 10:53 ami doubt if anyone on this site has a college loan debt to worry about
June 12th, 2006 at 10:58 amwar generates big money to a handful of mongers, while peace generates prosperity (and, in case there is any question, prosperity not only means wealth in the form of money…).
June 12th, 2006 at 10:58 ammeander – your link to Ore. State U. grad sudent story wanted me to register – this one doesnt:
June 12th, 2006 at 11:04 amhttp://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/politics/la-na-salvage11jun11,1,6551645.story?coll=la-news-politics-national&track=crosspromo
#35- My guess would be… never. And wasn’t one of GWB’s more memorable verbal mangling episodes in reference to the “sovereign” entities that our Native American Reservations are supposed to be? So how is it that the gov. can just dump that crap there, without permission? Take it to the Crawford Ranch instead. As for ‘temporary’, yeah, riiiiiiight. I call BULLSH*T!!
June 12th, 2006 at 11:04 amOr in your case I guess it would be wedding paraphernalia :)
Comment by unbelievable
Oh my god, no…I’ll do anything…
June 12th, 2006 at 11:10 amAsk Nick Berg about the iraqi views on torture.
Comment by squegeeboo — June 12, 2006 @ 10:00
Why?
June 12th, 2006 at 11:17 amIf it was supposed to be sarcasm, you failed Squeege. The Iraqis didn’t kill Berg did they?
June 12th, 2006 at 11:19 amWhy was Zarqawi beaten to Death?
Monday 12th of June 2006
by Jay Randal
“He was still alive. We put him in the ambulance, but when the Americans arrived they took him out of the ambulance, they beat him on his stomach… then they stomped on his stomach and his chest until he died and blood came out of his nose.” Iraqi eyewitness who claims he saw Zarqawi being beaten to death by US Special Forces troops at his hideout. (Quote is from article: “US hopes autopsy ends rumors about al-Zarqawi’s death” by Lis Sly/Chicago Tribune/6-11-06.
The Washington Post also reports that the Iraqi man claims he saw American soldiers wrap a blanket around Zarqawi’s head before beating him to death? Who ordered that he not be taken alive? Why was he terminated in barbaric fashion?
The Pentagon is involved in some kind of cover-up involving the elimination of the mysterious alleged terrorist Zarqawi, so who in the Congress will demand a REAL investigation?
There was NO reason for Zarqawi to NOT be taken alive, so if he was in fact murdered after he survived two 500 pound bombs being dropped on his hideout, then someone in the Pentagon ordered his assassination by military operatives?
Remember that an Iraqi General was murdered in a similar way, by stuffing him in a sleeping bag, and sufficating him!
( Jay Randal, political activist and writer in Stone Mountain, Georgia.)
June 12th, 2006 at 11:21 amChanges in who pays what taxes shouldn’t effect what “services” the “poor” get. The only flaw that the republicans have is that they didn’t cancel these stupid programs at the same time they thankfully reduced my taxes.
June 12th, 2006 at 11:24 am#35 & #47 – If you read the article, you’ll find that the leader of the Goshutes is the one wanting the temporary dump. He wants to get his people a slice of the American pie by creating jobs. I don’t know where the original idea for the dump came from, but I think we can guess. They must REALLY need the jobs in order to want to do this.
June 12th, 2006 at 11:24 amAsk Nick Berg about the iraqi views on torture.
Comment by squegeeboo — June 12, 2006 @ 10:00
not funny – but you can ask his father.
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Published on Friday, June 9, 2006 by the Minneapolis Star Tribune (Minnesota)
Al-Zarqawi’s Death is No Cause for Rejoicing
by Michael Berg
CNN anchor Soledad O’Brien spoke Thursday with Michael Berg, whose son, Nicholas Berg, was beheaded two years ago in Iraq, likely at the hands of Abu Musab al-Zarqawi. This is adapted from their conversation.
Q Mr. Berg, thank you for talking with us again. It’s nice to have an opportunity to talk to you. Of course, I’m curious to know your reaction, as it is now confirmed that Abu Musab al-Zarqawi, the man who is widely credited and blamed for killing your son, Nicholas, is dead.
A Well, my reaction is I’m sorry whenever any human being dies. Zarqawi is a human being. He has a family who are reacting just as my family reacted when Nick was killed, and I feel bad for that. I feel doubly bad, though, because Zarqawi is also a political figure, and his death will reignite yet another wave of revenge, and revenge is something that I do not follow, that I do not ask for, that I do not wish for against anybody. And it can’t end the cycle. As long as people use violence to combat violence, we will always have violence.
Q I have to say, sir, I’m surprised. I know how devastated you and your family were, frankly, when Nick was killed in such a horrible, and brutal and public way.
A Well, you shouldn’t be surprised, because I have never indicated anything but forgiveness and peace in any interview on the air.
Q No, no. And we have spoken before, and I’m well aware of that. But at some point, one would think, is there a moment when you say, ‘I’m glad he’s dead, the man who killed my son’?
A No. How can a human being be glad that another human being is dead?
Q You know, you talked about the fact that he’s become a political figure. Are you concerned that he becomes a martyr and a hero and, in fact, invigorates the insurgency in Iraq?
A Of course. When Nick was killed, I felt that I had nothing left to lose. I’m a pacifist, so I wasn’t going out murdering people. But I am — was not a risk-taking person, and yet now I’ve done things that have endangered me tremendously. …
Now, take someone who in 1991, who maybe had their family killed by an American bomb, their support system whisked away from them, someone who, instead of being 59, as I was when Nick died, was 5 years old or 10 years old. And then if I were that person, might I not learn how to fly a plane into a building or strap a bag of bombs to my back?
That’s what is happening every time we kill an Iraqi, every time we kill anyone, we are creating a large number of people who are going to want vengeance. And, you know, when are we ever going to learn that that doesn’t work?
June 12th, 2006 at 11:28 amThe Iraqis didn’t kill Berg did they?
Comment by Barfly
I thought it was supposed to have been Zarqarwi (sp?) and the execution happened in Iraq, but wasn’t it done by al Qaeda?
June 12th, 2006 at 11:31 amTake it to the Crawford Ranch instead. As for ‘temporary’, yeah, riiiiiiight. I call BULLSH*T!!
Comment by Cyra Brown — June 12, 2006 @ 11:04 am
I love that suggestion! Crawford Ranch would be a much better home for that stuff. I wonder what kind of form letter that would generate from the White House in response to suggesting it to them? :)
June 12th, 2006 at 11:35 am#43 – You’re wrong. I’m finishing up my 4-year degree. I’ve been working since I joined the Army in 1986, and I’ve been employed since I got out in 1990. I’m the last member of my family to get their 4-year degree, so I felt the need to get mine.
I’m five classes from my graduation, and I’m on treck to graduate suma cum laude. I’m not looking forward to my student load debt, but I’d rather ensure that I’m marketable.
June 12th, 2006 at 11:37 am#54
That’s why I called squeege on his snarky irrelevance.
June 12th, 2006 at 11:38 amThe other issue with student loans is that you are only allowed to deduct $2500/year in interest payments. I paid almost twice that last year.
June 12th, 2006 at 11:39 amIf you read the article, you’ll find that the leader of the Goshutes is the one wanting the temporary dump.
Gee another politician who isn’t thinking through the consequences of accepting one of the Bush Regime’s proposals… Think they twisted his arm, or just cut off their water supply to get compliance?
He wants to get his people a slice of the American pie by creating jobs. I don’t know where the original idea for the dump came from, but I think we can guess. They must REALLY need the jobs in order to want to do this.
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 11:24 am
Bush exploiting the poor and disenfranchized? Nooo…. Say it ain’t so!
June 12th, 2006 at 11:41 amI don’t know how, but we CAN’T let the issues of the DOWNING STREET MEMO and the 2004 STOLEN ELECTION be swept away.
Please read this editorial from the Seattle P-I
The blogosphere has been abuzz. But in the days since Rolling Stone magazine published a long piece that accused Republicans of widespread and intentional cheating that affected the outcome of the last presidential election, the silence in America’s establishment media has been deafening.
Associate Publisher: Public Interest in News Topics Beyond Control of Mainstream Media
June 12th, 2006 at 11:46 amBy Kenneth F. Bunting
The Seattle Post-Intelligencer
They must REALLY need the jobs in order to want to do this.
Comment by Zookeeper
Wait until November; the numbers of staff needed for the coming congressional investigations into Republican corruption (and the added federal prosecution staff) will cause such a rise in high-paying jobs, Rove will have try to spin it into a positive.
June 12th, 2006 at 11:47 amMissed that pesky “to;”
Sorry.
June 12th, 2006 at 11:48 amPNAC won’t disappear. It’s just that it’s receiving so much attention these days. It will merely shift form into something else that also looks and smells like shit.
June 12th, 2006 at 11:49 am#52- Damn… I am stunned by that. Mayhap they should open a casino instead? Gambling or Nuclear Waste? Hmmm… No contest. But it is Utah. The lesser of two ‘evils’? Flexibility would help.
June 12th, 2006 at 12:00 pmMayhap they should open a casino instead?
Comment by Cyra Brown
That was my first thought, because that’s what the Nez Perce and Coeur d’Alenes have done here, but that’s in Utah, so it’s probably a no go. The Utah governor would probably lay on the tracks to stop a casino, too.
June 12th, 2006 at 12:15 pmJim Moran (D-VA) is certainly a colorful guy! Check it out at http://www.doublespeakshow.com
http://www.doublespeakshow.com/2006/06/12/rep-jim-moran-loves-his-district/
June 12th, 2006 at 12:16 pmThe Utah governor would probably lay on the tracks to stop a casino, too.
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 12:15 pm
I guess a chain of liquor stores or brothels is out as well?
June 12th, 2006 at 12:22 pmPittsburg Steelers Q.B.not wearing helmet in motorcycle/traffic accident.
June 12th, 2006 at 12:29 pmI guess a chain of liquor stores or brothels is out as well?
Comment by unbelievable
As the Mormons say, “Oh my heck, no.”
June 12th, 2006 at 12:35 pmIt’s pretty simple. Conservative robots see the word “liberal,” randomly pick a nonsensical insult, and then spout off. Doesn’t matter that in this case it’s “liberal arts and sciences.” It still has the word liberal, and therefore, must be bad!
June 12th, 2006 at 12:36 pm#69- They are THE ‘Party Poopers’. I attended a Mormon wedding reception once, (not allowed at wedding, as a ‘heathen’) GadZooks!! Talk about BORING!!! Those folks could do with a drink, they are so uptight. And what is with the ‘Sacred Bloomers’?!? Puzzling group.
June 12th, 2006 at 12:53 pmAnd what is with the ‘Sacred Bloomers’?!? Puzzling group.
Comment by Cyra Brown
My first thought was that this was a special group of nubile virgins, but then I remembered the secret undergarments. I’m not sure what that’s about, and I hope I never know, but I remember hearing somewhere that Orrin Hatch wears them. I don’t know if they need drinks, but I sure do after being around them for very long. Have you ever seen the “Southpark” episode about Mormonism? It’s spooky how dead-on it is.
June 12th, 2006 at 1:13 pmAnd what is with the ‘Sacred Bloomers’?!? Puzzling group.
Comment by Cyra Brown — June 12, 2006 @ 12:53 pm
When I lived in Boise, the guys I used to work with would joke with each other about their Mormon underwear. I had not one clue as to what they were talking about. I mean, who would? So, unfortunately, I asked.
If you ask me all organized religion is one form or another of a cult. Some just more goofy than others…. Unfortunately too many of them are violent. So much for valuing humility and all that kind of stuff they spew… (warning: this comment will be followed by rocking throwing zealots without sin :)…
June 12th, 2006 at 1:14 pmThe garment contains four special symbolic marks: one on each breast, one at the navel, and one over the right knee. A change in the 1930 version of the LDS endowment added a brief explanation of what the marks meant, and still exists in the current version.
The temple garment (formally the Garment of the Holy Priesthood or informally, the garment or garments) symbolizes the “coats of skins” which Jehovah (Yahweh) made for Adam and Eve before casting them out of the Garden of Eden (Genesis 3:21). Latter-day Saints who have been endowed in the temple are expected to wear the garment to remind them of special promises or covenants to God. Latter-Day Saints are commonly clothed in them and the outer temple clothing for burial. The garment is believed to be a spiritual “shield and protection” against the powers of evil, (and sometimes against physical harm, according to some Latter-Day Saints).
The LDS members use their garments as a standard for what attire they wear. The top garment covers the shoulders and has a cap-sleeve, extending two to three inches down the arm. The neckline of the garment rests just below the collar bone, covering women’s cleavage. The bottom garment extends to just above the knee. LDS members use these measurements as guides to modest dress standards.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Temple_garment_(Mormonism)
June 12th, 2006 at 1:19 pm#75 – Holy crap, I knew they were supposed to wear the silly things, but I had no idea of the inspiring symbolism — not. Next time one of them comes to my door, I’m going to ask him if I can see them. It’s funny, they come to my door, usually two of them, and each of them has a name tag that says “Elder Joshua” or whatever — Elder Joshua is a well-scrubbed & shiny 18, if that.
June 12th, 2006 at 1:39 pmNext time one of them comes to my door, I’m going to ask him if I can see them.
You seriously crack me up! I dare you. Nah – the poor things might faint from all that blood rushing to their… hey, it might just stop them from showing up on yor doorstep though? Hmmm…. I say try it and see :)
It’s funny, they come to my door, usually two of them, and each of them has a name tag that says “Elder Joshua†or whatever — Elder Joshua is a well-scrubbed & shiny 18, if that.
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
That is pretty funny.
I was camping at Zion National Park on my cross country trek last year, and about 15 minutes after I and the cats had settled down to go to sleep, there appeared two Mormons with a thermos of cocoa (in case I was cold) and their book. I thanked them for thinking of me, but that as a vegan, I didn’t consume animal products because of the cruel treatment of animals. The shocked silence in return lasted long enough for me to go back to sleep… I can’t imagine what asking them to see their panties will get you…
June 12th, 2006 at 1:51 pm#75 Oh, yes, there are too in Spain. And native USA mormons, no less. It seems to me that they send the young ones to foreing countries to proselitize and let them know how is the “foreing world”, before returning home endured with true faith (?). Or meybe because the grown ones know that they don’t sell mormonism very well here, and need freser “vendors”…
They move always in pairs, and a lot of times they are nearly equal physically. Attack of the Clones anyone?
June 12th, 2006 at 1:54 pm#77 Ugh. My english sucks a bit more everyday. “Meybe” for “Maybe”, “freser” for “fresher”… and a couple more I suppose…
June 12th, 2006 at 1:57 pmUgh. My english sucks a bit more everyday.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 12, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
it’s all well Evil Spaniard… i just use my imagination and it’s Antonio Banderas and so you can say just about anything… :)
June 12th, 2006 at 2:03 pmEvil SPaniard,
It’s an Amish custom to send their kids out into the world like that. It’s called ‘rumspringa’ which means ‘run around’. At the end of the period on their own, they either choose to come back to be Amish 100% (therefore turning their back on the rest of the world and its culture), or they stay in the world and are permanently cut off from their families. Pretty cruel choice to force upon teenagers…
June 12th, 2006 at 2:04 pmThey say no muslim can commit suicide because their faith forbids them to do so. Yet, 3 detainees were found dead even when they are supoosed to be watched 24 hours. Saudi Arab, Denmark and Germany have doubted the version of suicide and required from US the closure of that prison.
Nice role model, US.
June 12th, 2006 at 2:05 pmBy the way, US 0, Czech Republic 3. Put more effort in that.
and a couple more I suppose…
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 12, 2006 @ 1:57 pm
At least you speak English at all – and in some cases better than our average troll. Language is only meant to be a form of communication. As long as we know what you are saying, then don’t worry about some typos (we all make them :)
June 12th, 2006 at 2:07 pmThey say no muslim can commit suicide because their faith forbids them to do so.
Comment by Juan C — June 12, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
This is exactly why knowledge is power…
Though, to play Devil’s Advocate – isn’t it against Christanity to commit suicide and yet we have one of the highest suicide rates in the Industrialized World (especially among teenagers)?
June 12th, 2006 at 2:11 pmReligion has never an issue when it comes to deciding between divine law and what I really want. That is the first hypocresy of religious people, with all due respect. Moses said you wont lie and everybody does that. I lived in one of the most corrupted countries in the world (Mexico), yet 95% is catholic. Besides, Catholisism allows you be a children raper and in your deathbed you can regret your sins and then be free to go to heaven.
June 12th, 2006 at 2:16 pm#79 I fear to disappoint you, Katy, but I’m more of Danny de Vito (I’m somewhat taller, 5′6”, at least) and less of Antonio Banderas than that… But thanks for your kindness :D
#80 Yes, I’ve heard something about the ritual of “passage to maturity”. But my best sources about mormons and/or amish so far are a novel of Sherlock Holmes, A Study in Scarlet, and the Harrison Ford’s movie, Witness. So, not much at all :)
June 12th, 2006 at 2:16 pmAnother contradiction: Everybody wants to go to heaven, yet nobody wants to die!!! Is not heaven a far better place than this? (which if in fact it does exist it must be the most boring place ever)
June 12th, 2006 at 2:19 pm#78 – And native USA mormons, no less. It seems to me that they send the young ones to foreing countries to proselitize and let them know how is the “foreing worldâ€, before returning home endured with true faith (?). Or meybe because the grown ones know that they don’t sell mormonism very well here, and need freser “vendorsâ€â€¦
They move always in pairs, and a lot of times they are nearly equal physically. Attack of the Clones anyone?
Comment by Evil Spaniard
Yes, they send their children on what they “mission,” some stay in the US, but many go to other countries. It’s supposed to be a great honor — for them. I’d say “Attack of the Clones” is right on the mark, Evil.
By the way, your English is fantastic! ;)
June 12th, 2006 at 2:23 pmSummarizing. Religion is about double moral (is that the expression in english?) Everytime one speaks in favor of high moral, ethics, and in communion with god, better check for skeletons in the closet. Just like legal speeches. Whenever I listen to really serious guys talking about law and how it should be upheld against everything, they must be the must corrupted. Laws were made to keep the upper class in control of the State, just like religion.
June 12th, 2006 at 2:25 pmSo, not much at all :)
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 12, 2006 @ 2:16 pm
You know far more about our culture than most Americans know about yours!
I will be teaching my students about the architecture of Antonio Gaudi in the fall, and some about the culture and history of Barcelona. It’s my subversive way of teaching the children in my classes to appreciate and have curiousity about the rest of the world…
June 12th, 2006 at 2:33 pmAnother contradiction: Everybody wants to go to heaven, yet nobody wants to die!!! Is not heaven a far better place than this? (which if in fact it does exist it must be the most boring place ever)
Comment by Juan C — June 12, 2006 @ 2:19 pm
Ironic isn’t it? That people most afraid of death are those who believe in some marvelous after-life… I don’t want to die yet. But I’m not afriad of death.
I wouldn’t want to live forever anyway. It would have to be dull eventually… Just let me go to sleep and stay that way. Sounds preferable.
June 12th, 2006 at 2:37 pmYes, they send their children on what they “mission,†some stay in the US, but many go to other countries. It’s supposed to be a great honor — for them.
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 2:23 pm
Is it like rumspringa – or is it an attempt to convert the heathens?
June 12th, 2006 at 2:39 pm#87 Thanks Zookeeper: I try my best :)
#88 Laws were made to keep the upper class in control of the State, just like religion.
Well, maybe the laws and religion weren’t created by the most powerful factions in the State, but for sure they profit from both, and the State must be controlled to not become a tool in the hands of the powerful. Read USA, now.
June 12th, 2006 at 2:41 pmIs it like rumspringa – or is it an attempt to convert the heathens?
Comment by unbelievable
No way is it like rumspringa. It’s pure recruiting. The church pays nothing for this little honor, the families pay everything, and they’re the ones with the zillions of children at home.
I’m taking you up on your dare, I’m asking the next “Elder Joshua” if I can see his Holy Underpants.
June 12th, 2006 at 2:46 pm#89 Unbelievable, don’t stop with Antonio Gaudi.
Seek for information on Modernism: (English Wikipedia). Unfortunely, the english version of Wikipedia has very few about Modernism in Catalonia, the page in Spanish Wikipedia has more info, but in Spanish, I fear. Anyhow, you can use some web translator. They are ugly and inefficient, but help to comprehend some concepts. Also has some interesting links to Modernist buildings in Europe.
June 12th, 2006 at 2:53 pmSteve Young used to wear those undies when playing pro football.
June 12th, 2006 at 2:57 pm#94 Um, these pesky links… I hope now works…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernism
http://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Modernismo
Or else, seek for yourself Modernism in english wiki, and Modernismo in spanish wiki…
June 12th, 2006 at 2:57 pmI’m taking you up on your dare, I’m asking the next “Elder Joshua†if I can see his Holy Underpants.
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 2:46 pm
If the kids go solo – how dothe parents know they aren’t testing the waters of sin? :)
About how often do they show up? You so have to tell us what happens… Excuse me while I now laugh uncontrollably at that visual…
June 12th, 2006 at 2:58 pmUnbelievable, don’t stop with Antonio Gaudi.
Oh, I won’t. But I have a limited amount of time (and attention span), so I’m going to do 30-45 minute presentations twice a week. Gaudi will be the main event :)
Also has some interesting links to Modernist buildings in Europe.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 12, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
Fortunatley I studied European architectural history in college and have traveled there, so I might be able to find some sources in English. The hardest part has been trying to put together presentations for places like India where I’ve not studied the architecture (college just covered the Western version) nor visited (yet). That’s been a challenge.
But thanks for the links – I’ll check them out. I’m working on Prague today. Such a cool city. We didn’t study it in college either as it was right before the fall of the iron curtain and we didn’t know much…
June 12th, 2006 at 3:08 pm#99 I knew you were a very capable and efficient architect and teacher. Go for it, and don’t let those teenies (or twentysomething) go without true knowledge and thinking skills :)
I have some friends who visited Prague and others who directly have moved there. All of them are in love with the city, they say that is both an awesome architectural treasure and a very romantic city. I think you’ll not be dissapointed.
June 12th, 2006 at 3:18 pmexcuse me??? for your information – my son graduated in 4 years with a lib. arts degree in CHEMISTRY… he is now in grad school at berkeley, after also being accepted to programs (full ride, btw) at MIT, harvard, scripps and cal tech… he will be going on to cal tech for post doc work next year… my daughter is studying BIO-CHEM for pre-med, and will be graduating next year with a lib. arts degree…
what is your problem, geek boy?
Haha, hopefully the ones who obtained those didn’t tell you they were liberal arts degrees. They’re not, and congratulations, they should be financially sound.
June 12th, 2006 at 3:31 pmJust look at Sen. Orin Hatch who wears the Mormon undergarment at all times > that man is so uptight and bigoted that he reeks of hypocrisy! Everytime he spews about Gay marriages I have to laugh because his grandfather had like 4 wives, so no virtue on monagamous marriage for him > lol.
June 12th, 2006 at 3:48 pmSpaniard,
Antonio Banderas is only around 5′6″ or so. Not a big guy at all.
June 12th, 2006 at 4:08 pmI think you’ll not be dissapointed.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 12, 2006 @ 3:18 pm
I was in Prague in 1998 and it was very Americanized in some aspects. They have a mammoth pair of golden arches right there in the train station when you arrive. Many Americans live there as well.
June 12th, 2006 at 4:10 pmevil spaniard – not at all disappointed! and what a man you are! you could have fooled me…
June 12th, 2006 at 4:14 pmdanny de vito – nothing to be ashamed of there! any lack of stature is more than made up for with talent and wit – a fine comparison!
…but, can i keep the “sound” of antonio in my head? :)
If the kids go solo – how dothe parents know they aren’t testing the waters of sin? :)
Comment by unbelievable
I’m sure they are, every chance they get. The missionary kids stay with sponsor families who are — get this — Mormon! They watch them like hawks, unless, of course, they have a daughter of marriagable age, then they’ll fix ‘em up in a heartbeat, i.e. they don’t watch ‘em very closely. I do a lot of divorces for Mormons, surprisingly they don’t really have anything against it, even if they say they do. I’m always amazed that you find the same crap going on in the lives of Mormons as everyone else. Right now, and it seems in perpetuity, I’m trying to track down a Mormon meth addict. Sweet…
June 12th, 2006 at 4:26 pmZookeeper,
I once ran into a mormon woman who had 3 marriages and 3 divorces. Two of her marriages were to Mormon men, and one to a non-mormon. She acted like marrying outside the mormon religion was the worst thing she ever did, even though two of her ex-husbands were Mormom. With that kind of logic, I don’t even know where to begin.
June 12th, 2006 at 4:39 pmI’m always amazed that you find the same crap going on in the lives of Mormons as everyone else.
I think that’s one of the things that people miss – that really, we’re all just people. I never understood the need for hierarchies and classes. A friend of mine is from India and was discriminated against because of his caste… No wonder they wanted the British to leave and have been disbanding the caste system. If only we’d wake up here and start disbanding the religious fanatic holier-than-thou elitist and rich elitist castes.
Right now, and it seems in perpetuity, I’m trying to track down a Mormon meth addict. Sweet…
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 4:26 pm
Isn’t that like an Amish person who owns a hair dryer?
June 12th, 2006 at 4:48 pmWith that kind of logic, I don’t even know where to begin.
Comment by Krazny — June 12, 2006 @ 4:39 pm
At ‘good-bye’? :)
June 12th, 2006 at 4:49 pm#106
Was the non-mormon first, there are certainly many factors that could cause someone to say something is “worst”.
June 12th, 2006 at 4:53 pm#8. squegeeboo — June 12, 2006 @ 9:38 am
You mock what you don’t understand. Economists get Bachelors of Arts degrees from Liberal Arts colleges. Economics is a Social Science.
#100. bhealy — June 12, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
I googled “Chemistry B.A.” and found that very, very many colleges and universities, private and public offer Bacehlors of Arts degrees in that subject. I also found that many medical schools accept Chemistry BA as well as BS undergraduate degrees. Don’t assume so readily that MD’s can repay their student loans: http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/
When I was in college, the difference between BA and BS was principally that Calculus was required for the BS degree. BA’s were not available in all subjects – engineering, for example, did not have a BA program. That katy — June 12, 2006 @ 10:42 am has children with BA degrees and post-graduate degree plans as she describes is entirely credible.
June 12th, 2006 at 5:01 pmIsn’t that like an Amish person who owns a hair dryer?
Comment by unbelievable
If the Amish person owned a hairdryer (with a long, long cord), maybe they’d be making some attempt at personal hygiene. Ugh.
June 12th, 2006 at 5:02 pmIf the Amish person owned a hairdryer (with a long, long cord), maybe they’d be making some attempt at personal hygiene. Ugh.
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 5:02 pm
I thought I saw battery operated ones in the travel section… They looked small enough to hide under your coat.
I’ve never been next to anyone Amish. That bad? Do they not bathe either? Is soap ungodly?
June 12th, 2006 at 5:09 pm#107 – They get a lot of pressure to stay within the religion. Sometimes they marry outside it, but then the pressure begins on the non-Mormon spouse to convert. I had a friend who was a Mormon, and her over the top arrogant husband screwed her over royally in their marriage, and then in their divorce. She wouldn’t have dreamed of marrying outside the religion, and pressured her daughters to marry ASAP after high school. We didn’t stay friends long. It’s very subtle pressure, but it’s relentless — all for “their own good,” of course.
June 12th, 2006 at 5:14 pmI’ve never been next to anyone Amish. That bad? Do they not bathe either? Is soap ungodly?
Comment by unbelievable
I meant the meth addict! Too funny. ;)
June 12th, 2006 at 5:15 pm[...] Think Progress [...]
June 12th, 2006 at 5:17 pm#100. bhealy — June 12, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
I googled “Chemistry B.A.†and found that very, very many colleges and universities, private and public offer Bacehlors of Arts degrees in that subject. I also found that many medical schools accept Chemistry BA as well as BS undergraduate degrees. Don’t assume so readily that MD’s can repay their student loans: http://www.defaulteddocs.dhhs.gov/
I apparently have to agree that colleges offer a BA in Chemistry or other subjects. It certainly seems odd to me and I want to question it all I can, but it seems you are right I did try and fiure out what such degrees mean and why they are ‘arts’ degrees.. I can’t say I understand it yet but you seem to be right.
PS: I worry that colleges feel the need to gain more accredidatian to pursue new degrees to gain headlines
(Time to doublecheck my physicians’ degee =)
June 12th, 2006 at 5:34 pmPlease!!! Tell me why so many credible sources, NYT, WaPo, brilliant minds in the blogosphere etc can’t get the name of Myanmar correct. Newsflash…..the name has not been Burma for years.
June 12th, 2006 at 6:02 pmThe country was officially renamed Myanmar in 1989.
ok – bill and bhealy - i just looked at the diploma on the wall – my son graduated with a degree of Bachelor of Science in Chemistry, from the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Illinois… (see #37) … my daughter is also LAS, majoring in Bio-Chem…
June 12th, 2006 at 6:20 pmdid i further muddy up the waters?
oops! bad mommy! daughter’s major is Molecular and Cellular Biology…
June 12th, 2006 at 6:23 pmi will catch up someday…
#117, perhaps because they don’t agree that the military dictators who took the country over and kill, jail and oppress the Burmese people had any right to be any kind of legitimate government which could change the country name. Why give such an odious regime any legitimacy at all?
June 12th, 2006 at 6:30 pm#119 – katy, you must be so proud!
June 12th, 2006 at 6:31 pmI meant the meth addict! Too funny. ;)
Comment by Zookeeper — June 12, 2006 @ 5:15 pm
Ooops… :) Definitely funny…
June 12th, 2006 at 6:41 pmthanks zoo – i surely am proud of my kids… to be clear, though, none of this was to brag but to straighten up that squeegee-snob ( but i’m not sure i did that after all…)
June 12th, 2006 at 7:00 pmboth kids got the same message from me, as early as kindergarten – i would love them and be proud no matter what they did AS LONG AS THEY DID THE BEST THEY COULD… the world needs good ditch diggers too…
so, i did what i could to make them decent PEOPLE, but they did all the hard work to get into college and work on the programs they’ve chosen – i give THEM that credit…
Katy, good job, mom! You’ve accomplished the only thing any of us can really accomplish — turn decent people out into the world. ;)
Also, Squeegy is hopeless until he grows up a bit. I wouldn’t take anything he says too personally.
June 12th, 2006 at 7:05 pmok – bill and bhealy – i just looked at the diploma on the wall – my son graduated with a degree of Bachelor of Science in Chemistry, from the College of Liberal Arts and Sciences at the University of Illinois… (see #37) … my daughter is also LAS, majoring in Bio-Chem…
did i further muddy up the waters?
Very good job wth your children.
June 12th, 2006 at 7:42 pmzoo – thanks again! now stop! really, i keep it all in perspective, reading stories like yours and your olderst son; i have a neighbor whose 19yr old daughter had a brain tumor at 2 and will forever be like an 8yr old – with 19yr old body and social cravings (YIKES!!!)… moms like you guys make my “accomplishments” merely respectable – yours are amazingly commendable and inspirational…
June 12th, 2006 at 7:43 pmPNAC….R.I.P. —— NOT!!!! MAY THEY ALL ROT IN HELL!!!!!!
June 12th, 2006 at 7:59 pmIf committing suicide was a good PR move, Bush would have done it long ago.
June 12th, 2006 at 8:21 pm#104 OK, Katy, you can think of me as if I was Antonio Banderas’ personification in TP’s threads. Not a bad thing, although. Even with black mask, cloack and rapier :P
June 12th, 2006 at 9:22 pm#128 You’re not so dumb…
June 12th, 2006 at 9:24 pm#130 – Such a burden you carry — having the chicks on TP think of you as Antonio Banderas. Let us know if it gets to be too much for you, and we’ll start imagining you as Danny DeVito. ;)
June 12th, 2006 at 9:37 pm#128- Nah- Karl Rove would have killed him, then would make it look like a suicide. ;)
June 12th, 2006 at 9:42 pmYEEOW! ZORRO!!! that’s even better!
my childhood hero… and the one that showed up a few years ago (antonio) was like icing on that cake! thanks for that spaniard (mind if i call you that? the e word is hard to even think about)…
#128 You’re not so dumb…
Comment by Evil Spaniard — June 12, 2006 @ 9:24 pm
thank you? :-)
June 12th, 2006 at 9:42 pm(a “lost in translation” thing, i hope)
good one, zoo!
June 12th, 2006 at 9:44 pmUm, maybe a Lost in Post’s Numbers for me…
When I say You’re not so dumb… I’m replying to some poster who says If committing suicide was a good PR move, Bush would have done it long ago. – Comment by Dumber than ever — June 12, 2006 @ 8:21 pm
Only was a word game. I wasn’t my intention to call anybody dumb… even less the gentle Damas who are saying so nice adjectives about my humble person… *bows gallantly*
June 13th, 2006 at 6:42 amI will, Zookeeper. As soon as I feel tired of TP women’s admiration, I’ll sign as DeVito’s Clone. Not soon, although.
June 13th, 2006 at 6:50 amBTW, no offense directed to Mr. DeVito, I admire him and I like his movies.
June 13th, 2006 at 6:51 amAsk Nick Berg about the iraqi views on torture.
Comment by squegeeboo #18
queasybooger,
Hurry up and enlist, the Army, Navy, Marines, and Latrines need you!
…you cowardly little piece of inbred sh*t…
…you talk a good game…
…now get your scary little ass IN the game…
June 13th, 2006 at 8:46 amIf all the terrorists at Guantanamo commited suicide we could close it even sooner.
Comment by troll #4
trollop,
If your parents had been spayed and neutered…
…you wouldn’t be such a burden on society…
…your release date is when?
June 13th, 2006 at 8:49 amThe Project for a New American century is closing you say?
…quick, Alberto…
…grab the shredders…
June 13th, 2006 at 9:02 amTO: Colleen.Graffy@pepperdine.edu
Dear Ms. Graffy:
I am writing to you to remark upon the incredibly ignorant statement you made regarding the three recent suicides at Gitmo. The lack of knowledge about the causes of suicide which you demonstrated in your profoundly stupid remarks leaves me breathless for the sheer lack of understanding of an issue which is the 11th leading cause of death among Americans. (Anderson RN, Smith BL. Deaths: leading causes for 2001. National Vital Statistics Report 2003;52(9):1-86.), not to mention what incarceration without hope of release for charges unknown must do to a person. How would you like to be locked up without any knowledge of charges against you, in a land not your own, without any sense whether or not you would ever leave alive? Perhaps you should try it.
Annual rates of suicide in this country are over 30,000 per year, more than 650,000 Americans are hospitalized each year following suicide attempts, and over 116,000 are treated in hospital emergency departments for same. Among US males, suicide is the 8th leading cause of death for all US men and males are four more times likely to die from suicide than females. And this is not even beginning to quote numbers related to female and teen deaths. But don’t take it from me, Ms. Graffy, check out the website of one of your fellow-governmental agencies, the CDC–that’s the Centers for Disease Control in case you had failed to note its existence– http://www.cdc.gov/ncipc/factsheets/suifacts.htm . There you will see a tidy introduction to a subject in which you are woefully ignorant and which all your degrees have obviously not prepared you to understand or speak about.
I come from a family which, in the last one hundred years, has experienced over a dozen suicides in its ranks. So, yeh, I tend to be rather sensitive to the issue. We are what you would call patriotic Americans, as a whole, and have done more than our share to contribute to the life of the nation in ways very big and small. To see you liken suicide as an act of warfare against the US would be funny if it were not so cruel and unfeeling. But then, cruel and unfeeling is probably how you have risen to the position you presently enjoy at State.
Do us all a favor, Ms. Graffy, and shut your mouth about subjects for which you are woefully under-qualified and under-experienced to comment. Step outside of your fishbowl of an office and limited circle of acquaintances, take a drive sometime and see the world beyond the Beltway. Touch base with reality. You are in many ways as imprisoned as the people you are verbally abusing at Gitmo.
Very Truly Yours,
June 13th, 2006 at 5:45 pmRobert Pell-deChame
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