Murtha on Rove: ‘He’s Sitting in His Air-Conditioned Office on His Big, Fat Backside, Saying Stay the Course’
Murtha on Rove: ‘He’s Sitting in His Air-Conditioned Office on His Big, Fat Backside, Saying Stay the Course’
Karl Rove attacked Rep. John Murtha during a speech last week in New Hampshire. Rove described Murtha’s Iraq plan as “cutting and running,” and suggested that the 37-year Marine combat veteran would “be with you at the first shots” but not “for the last, tough battles.”
Murtha defended himself this morning on Meet the Press:
MURTHA: He’s in New Hampshire. He’s making a political speech. He’s sitting in his air-conditioned office on his big, fat backside, saying stay the course. That’s not a plan. … We’ve got to change direction. You can’t sit there in the air-conditioned office and tell troops carrying 70 pounds on their backs, inside these armored vessels hit with IEDs every day, seeing their friends blown up, their buddies blown up — and he says stay the course? Easy to say that from Washington, DC.
Full transcript below:
ROVE (TAPE): Like too many Democrats, it strikes me they are ready to give the green light to go to war, but when it gets tough and when it gets difficult, they fall back on that party’s old pattern of cutting and running. They may be with you at the first shots, but they are not going to be there for the last, tough battles. They are wrong and profoundly wrong in their approach.
RUSSERT: Cutting and running.
MURTHA: He’s in New Hampshire. He’s making a political speech. He’s sitting in his air-conditioned office on his big, fat backside, saying stay the course. That’s not a plan. I don’t know what his military experience is, but that’s a political statement. This is a policy difference between me and the White House. I disagree completely with what he’s saying.
Now, let’s give you an example. When we went to Beirut, I said to President Reagan, get out. The other day we were doing a debate and they said, Beirut was a different situation, we cut and run. We didn’t cut and run. President Reagan made the decision to change direction because he knew he couldn’t win it. Even in Somalia, President Clinton made the decision, “we have to change direction.” Even with tax cuts, when we had a tax cut, under Reagan we then had an increase.
We need to change directions. We can’t win a war like this. This guy is sitting back there criticizing — political criticism, getting paid by the public taxpayer, and he’s saying to us, “We’re winning this war and they’re running”? We’ve got to change direction. You can’t sit there in the air-conditioned office and tell troops carrying 70 pounds on their backs inside these armored vessels hit with IEDs every day, seeing their friends blown up, their buddies blown up, and he says stay the course? Easy to say that from Washington, DC.
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That fat back stink must be unbelievable.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:09 pmI love this man.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:11 pm2502 Dead
18490 wounded
3 US soldiers missing
72 jounalists killed
337 Contractors killed of 215 are Americans
226 Coalition troops killed
1780 Coalition troop wounded
250,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS KILLED
True cost of war 3 trillion Dollars Including medical costs for wounded
Iraqi Property destroyed (loads of money) ???
and 1 saddam Hussein captured - — - was it worth it
June 18th, 2006 at 12:12 pm[…] Source… […]
June 18th, 2006 at 12:17 pmRove talking about War, like his big, bitch backside has ever experienced anything close to war…unless, arguing about who got the last piece of cake counts.
Viva Murtha!
June 18th, 2006 at 12:17 pmRove said the Right use the net to broaden their sexual appeal, DHS Press Secretary, Doyle, Arrested on Child Seduction Charges, agreed.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:21 pmSNAP! That’s going to leave a mark! And rightly so! About time someone threw his crap right back at him. The trolls will be going NUTS over this one. i wonder what Karl will order his flunkies to say in his defense? EEEWWWWW!!! Will Ann ‘opine’?
June 18th, 2006 at 12:24 pmHey, come on, support your Commander in Chief! He knows what it’s like to serve in the military. He did his time in the armed forces. He’s not like some John Kerry, or John Murtha. What did those guys ever do in the military compared to the Commander in Chief? huh? Were they ever Commander in Chief? No! They were on the front lines. No perspective. Bush was not on the front lines, so he has the perspective to stay the course.
And Bush is the Commander in Chief. He’s a War-Time President! He was re-elected because he will stay the course, no matter what!
June 18th, 2006 at 12:26 pmRove’s little attack on Democrats really pissed Murtha off…
Good.
More Democrats need to step up and counter these partisan attacks. I didn’t hear Rove offer any solutions to the Iraq mess, just attacks on the opposition.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:27 pmWell, the story that karl rove tells is that he got into politics because he got beaten up by a girl who supported kennedy for president (rove had a nixon sticker on his bike).
+++++++
1970, Karl Rove sneaks into the campaign office of Illinois Democrat Alan Dixon and steals some letterhead. He then prints up 1000 party invitations
+++++++
Big tough karl.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:27 pmOnly a blind fool stays the course when it’s leading them over a cliff!
Of course, in this case, it’s easy for Rove and the other chickens in the Whitehouse to say it! They aren’t the ones heading over the cliff… yet!
Larry Johnson had a good blog about Rove on his blog:
http://noquarter.typepad.com/ my_weblog/ 2006/ 06/ sacrificing_our.html
They make me sick.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:32 pmI caught this, and have to say that while I support a lot of what Murtha had to say, he certainly did try to get a lot out at once. I would have preffered he speak just a little more slowly and carefully, and perhaps not come across so much foaming at the mouth. I know that’s harsh, but does anyone else agree?
Fundamentally I think the Dems are missing the opportunity to highlight the fact that “we’ll stand down while they stand up” is not a plan. Murtha simply said they don’t have a plan. I think this needs to be articulated much more carefully. The admin has given us nothing with regard to a set of concrete goals to be met by the Iraqi and coalition forces. A set of goals is not a timeline. But they need to be there for the mission to be defined.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:34 pmKarl is a shameless bastard. This could explain why his mother killed herself. Once she discovered what a despicable soul she had spawned she apparently saw no other way out. - Larry Johnson
Sorry, but that was totally unnecessary for Larry to make his point. Perhaps he’s not trying to be taken seriously, I don’t know. But personal attacks don’t have any place in rational discourse. Leave it to their side. If you want to call Karl fat too, that’s fine, just don’t expect people to take you all that seriously.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:40 pmIt’s just as easy for ‘Cut-and-Run’ Murtha to call for surrender from his air conditioned office, or to pronounce Marines guilty of crimes before the investigation is concluded from his air conditiioned office. He is a disgrace.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:43 pmYes, Krysten, that Larry Johnson is all class:
Another fine display of left-wing civility, tolerance and compassion.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:45 pmHi again,
I just came across this response to Karl over at the Scrootiny Hooligans! :)
http://scrutinyhooligans.blogspot.com/ 2006/ 06/ karl-rove-chickenhawk.html
Yep!! That’s about right! :)
June 18th, 2006 at 12:46 pmWOW … just watch it:
June 18th, 2006 at 12:46 pmRove described Murtha’s Iraq plan as “cutting and running,†and suggested that the 37-year Marine combat veteran would “be with you at the first shots†but not “for the last, tough battles.â€
Yet Rove missed serving himself when he attended 6 different colleges and graduated from none. That’s our karl allright.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:47 pmHe won’t be there for the first or last shots.
I say kudos for John Murtha! My only comment is that he was a bit too civil in responding to Koward Rove. He should also have torn new a**holes for George Waffler Bush and Richard Bloodsucker Cheney.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:48 pmevery single time rove opens his hate-spewing mouth or a lock-step-marching elected r or media sycophant regurgitates a rovian talking point, they should get both barrels right back in their faces, a la cheney… they SHOULD NOT, hell, they MUST NOT be allowed to get away with their ceaseless attempts to polarize the nation…
http://takeitpersonally.blogspot.com/
June 18th, 2006 at 12:50 pmGood job, Rep Murtha. Keep speaking out for the troops.
As a commenter here put it so well: RESCUE THE TROOPS!
June 18th, 2006 at 12:51 pmI’m desperately trying to think of when the democrats have “cut and run”. The only thing that sort of comes to mind is somalia and the bay of pigs. But I think those decisions stand up fine in retrospect. Or maybe the decision to remove missiles from turkey in order to get soviet missles out of cuba and prevent a possible nuclear war?
Surely he’s not saying the end of the vietnam war is an instance of that, because that was done by republican administrations?
June 18th, 2006 at 12:58 pmYes, Krysten, that Larry Johnson is all class:
Karl is a shameless bastard. This could explain why his mother killed herself. Once she discovered what a despicable soul she had spawned she apparently saw no other way out.
Another fine display of left-wing civility, tolerance and compassion.
+++++++
Do all republicans talk like anne coulter?
[who wants to poison people]
Trying to say left wing people, as if only lefties come here, speak and act like johnson is just a broad meaningless statement. An opinion as broad and stupid as ‘all lefties are godless’ or ‘all righties are fundie wacko armageddonists’ maybe ‘all capitalists are communist socialists intent on ruling the world’
I think you mean this guy johnson talks alot like rush or some other shock jock pundit whore
June 18th, 2006 at 12:58 pmDitto what Zoo said…
We need more Dems to act like John Murtha!
June 18th, 2006 at 12:58 pmWhat Rove believes is similar to what former Secretary of State Lawrence Eagleberger said this morning on CNN, when Blitzer asked him how long he thinks the U.S. should stay in Iraq. Eagleberger replied “As long as it takes”. This kind of statement is easy for Eagleberger and Rove and O’Reilly and Limbaugh and Coulter and Hannity and Cheney and others to make as long as there are others to fight their wars. Perhaps they might be whistling a differernt tune if they actually had to end up in a combat zone, such as in Vietnam or the first Gulf War, or if one of their relatives ended up coming back from Iraq or Afghanistan in a body bag.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:06 pmSomeone has just got to give Rove some lessons in military history. The man is so far off the mark with his insane remarkes its -well- insanity. He has lost it completely.
The dems prosecuted and leadership by the dems won WII. The pukes, millions of them, including the Bush clan, were for the Nazis, and were with the war only to make some big bucks.
Korea was going along famously. I was there, we took back all of North Korea. Then the newly elected puke president ordered the troops withdraw 60 miles in the dead of the night. Afraid the Chinese might enter the war. They made it easy for the Chinese to enter the war. I took a bath in the Yalu river and just a few days later we retreated in the middle of the night. A disgrace.
Vietnam was horribly ran by both dem and puke administrations. But who cut and run. Nixon, Kissinger and the rest. Vicgtory with honor was being declared as the NVA chased us out and off the rooftop of the American Embassy in Saigon.
Who got us into Iraq, a war we are supposedly winning although nothing - absolutely nothing except the capture of Hussein and the killing of Zarqawi has been accomplished. Bushco, the pukes who profiteer from war, thats who. Who will get us out? I suspect the dems.
So Roverboy, study up on your military history of the past 70 years, will you please!!
June 18th, 2006 at 1:07 pmYeah, we have to get on the right track! We have to… have a repeat of Blackhawk Down! We’ll call it Blackhawk Down II: Murtha Leaves Iraq.
I find Murtha’s arguments cheap and highly partisan. What he said applies to virtually any White House that has been engaged in a war. Yes, it is easy for the politicians back in the White House to say “stay the course”, but that’s what their job is to do. They have to make tough decisions without crying like babies every time a soldier dies. If that’s the way we ran our military, we’d be surrender-monkeys like the French.
Rove said quite correctly that Murtha and Kerry were cowardly for wanting us to cut and run from Iraq, and the vast majority of the Senate and the House agree with Rove, not Murtha or Kerry. That puts Murtha on the defensive as we see in this interview.
I don’t know what Murtha has been on lately, but bringing up Somalia to defend his argument sounds like something a person who doesn’t know what they’re talking about would do. In fact, I can’t imagine what the soldiers involved in Somalia would think of that statement. Repeat what happened in Somalia??? Has Murtha lost his marbles?
June 18th, 2006 at 1:07 pmseixon:
I had no idea that the historical consensus was that we should have stayed in somalia. Is it really?
How do you feel about reagan’s action in beirut? Or selling weapons to iran because their friends had taken some hostages?
Or meekly letting china have our spy plane?
June 18th, 2006 at 1:14 pmYes, it is easy for the politicians back in the White House to say “stay the courseâ€, but that’s what their job is to do. - Seixon
This assumes a course has actually been articulated. “We’ll stand down while they stand up” is a slogan, not a course of action.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:17 pmIgnore Seixon, he just makes crap up to get attention. And when you call him out on his utter lack of knowledge or facts, he’ll just start whining about how you’re trying to slander him. But he’ll do it in a really, really long diatribe filled iwth ad hominem attacks that he claims you started.
Says he’s NOT a conservative… too funny.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:20 pmCuster stayed the course until he looked like a pin cushion.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:22 pmBTW, can anyone who is criticizing murtha for wanting to cut and run give a quick summary of his proposal? Its trivial to find in his own words exactly what he proposes for iraq, and it sounds like you may be attacking a cartoon version of it instead of its actual substance.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:22 pmSeixon, were you in Somalia? Or Iraq? Or Beirut? Or anywhere except for Norway? Why do you live in Norway anyway? Are you a convicted felon?
June 18th, 2006 at 1:23 pmOnce upon a time, politics in America was actually a bit tame, then someone named Karl Rove happens along in Texas(of all places) and weird things start to happen. Watergate was a shameful event in our history and someone was held accountable and punished.Now,every type of shameful, criminal and despicable deed(including vile sexual deeds) and the party in power sticks out its chin, thumps its chest and dares the public to turn them away come election day. I don’t know about anyone else, but I intend to try and do just that when I get my chance on election day.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:24 pmSeixon - Yes, it is easy for the politicians back in the White House to say “stay the courseâ€, but that’s what their job is to do.
And when the course is wrong, and causes thousands of innocent people to die - stay the course because, “that’s what their job is to do.”
Staying the course, when the course is wrong is like being addicted to gambling. You keep feeding more money into the addiction, hoping against forelorn hope that the outcome will somehow be different, if only you make just one more bet, one more bet, one more bet, until, at last, all is lost.
Only, in this case, the gamble is with lives.
“How many deaths will it take ’till they learn
June 18th, 2006 at 1:30 pmThat too many people have died?” - Dylan
Before anyone starts making sti\upid acusations about Larry, you might want to check his Bio:
http://noquarter.typepad.com/about.html
He is eminently qualified to make the remarks he made, and to speak the truth. Because he can prove what he says, unlike the rightwing dimwits who love the trollops Coulter and Malkin. Thay are far worse at character assasination than Larry has ever been, or will be.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:35 pmI hope other Democrats can learn from Murtha’s example: to take a position, to speak plainly, to fight back when attacked. He’s doing a great job.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:42 pmRove is a souless pig.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:43 pmBefore anyone starts making sti\upid acusations about Larry, you might want to check his Bio:-Kryten42
Those are indeed impressive credentials, which makes it all the more surprising that he felt the need to comment on Karl’s mother’s suicide, and continually mention that Karl is fat. I’m sorry but very smart and qualified people saying very stupid things doesn’t impress anyone.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:44 pmComment by Seixon
When are you going to stop supporting the 911 terrorist nation of Saudi Arabia?
When are you going to demand YOU inept leader gets off his PNAC Iraq trip and get back to the business of 911?
YOU have no right to say ANYTHING about Iraq opponits until you are SERIOUS about a response to 911.
Until then this entire Iraq deal is a traitors benedict arnolds smoke screen to turn a blind eye to the Bush Family/PNAC/Oil Company relationship with the sponsors of 911 terror is Saudi Arabia.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:46 pmI agree with you, Kryten42, Larry Johnson is so well qualified it makes the head spin, and when he says something I listen. I hate Karl Rove as I have never hated any being on this earth, but Johnson’s remark about Rove’s mother was out of bounds. Johnson has handed the “right” ammunition to use against him every time he opens him mouth from now on, and they will use it. He should apologize immediately so that the “right” has trouble using his words against him.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:47 pmCorrection: Soulless pig
June 18th, 2006 at 1:47 pmIt’s refreshing to see an elected official act like one. I have a lot of respect for Murtha for standing up for the soldiers to an Administration that is not only unAmerican in character and action - but have already killed more people than the very terrorist they claim to be at war against.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:49 pmIt impresses me. It is about time that the dems started acting just like the republicans. The republicans have been making personal attacks on the dems for far too long. It cost Kerry support. Kerry sat back and had his reputation demolished. The next dem candidate must take a stand agianst these baseless atacks and use the same exact style that the republicans use.
Why?
Because it is what worls. The American people fall for this crap. We have got to start making the baseless attacks, instead of always defending against them.
Welcome to the new Karl Rove style politics.
The “We aren’t going to stoop to their level” argument is gone. We have got to start playing by the new rule book, not the old one. Or, we will never win back any branch.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:51 pm#11 and #37, Krysten
Here’s what can be done to Larry, using his own words, carefully selected from your link in #11:
“If you oppose invading Iran you hate freedom and are selling America’s freedom to an Islamic Adolf Hitler. This is no longer a matter of opinion, it is a documented record of fact. I for one am fed up with these tactics and will fight back. The time has come to say enough. This is a fight for the soul of this nation.”
So, now it appears as though Larry actually supports the Administration. Each one of those sentences has been copied verbatim. Do you see how easy it is to paint somebody in a false light? Rove is a master at this. And, now that he’s no longer under threat of indictment, he’s back, with a vengence.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:55 pmBecause it is what worls. The American people fall for this crap. We have got to start making the baseless attacks, instead of always defending against them.
Nonsense. Read the posts/comments following Larry’s post where he comments on Rove’s suicide. The majority think he crossed a line, and needlessly so. I don’t buy for a second that the majority of the American people will stand and applaud when someone suggests that Rove’s mother killed herself because she realized how shameless Rove was. Frankly, there are much more clever ways to point out that Rove has no business commenting on the Dems’ “cut and run” strategy - I thought Murtha struck the right balance. Mention that he makes these comments sitting on his but in DC in an air-conditioned office, but ultimately - focus on the issue at hand, not the personal stuff.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:57 pmHip,Hip Hooray for John Murtha! Someone who speaks in plain english with no mincing or parsing of his words. I am very happy that he spoke up against that fat piece of worthless human flesh that is Karl Rove.
As was mentioned in an earlier post I do hope the Democtrats learn from my hero John Murhta and learn to fight back just as fast and as furious as Rove and the rest of these right wing lackies can through it out.
The only thing that dissapoints me with Murtha words about Rove is that it took almost a week for him to come out fighting. Any Democrat who is slandered by these people need to come out swinging and respond to an attack right after it happens.
If Kerry would have done that when he was swiftboated by Rove and his lackies this country might not be in the sorry state of affairs that Bushco has gotten us into.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:59 pmA DESERTER’S STORY
WHAT HAPPENS WHEN THE HORRORS OF IRAQ BECOME TOO MUCH FOR A SOLDIER TO BEAR? BY NEIL MACKAY
MORE than 6000 men and women have deserted from the US army since the invasion of Iraq in March 2003. In the British forces, the figure stands at around 1000. The soldiers are leaving because they are sickened by the bloodshed in Iraq; because they believe the war is illegal; because they are on the verge of nervous breakdown; and because they are having to buy their own boots or are not being given enough food and water. Labour MP John McDonnell says that troops are now “questioning the morality and legality of the occupationâ€.
In Britain, deserters rarely – if ever – publicly explain why they have refused to fight. In the US, however, it’s a different story.
Some 25 GIs have applied for refugee status in Canada since the invasion of Iraq. At least 200 others are just living quietly , assisted by organisations such as War Resisters, and hoping that the US will forget all about them. Many of the Canadians helping them were once US citizens themselves. More than 30 years ago, they fled north, taking Canadian citizenship to escape being drafted to Vietnam.
Many of these deserters are suffering from serious mental health problems, such as post-traumatic stress disorder brought on by prolonged exposure to the horrors of war. Britain’s Ministry of Defence recently revealed that in 2005, around 60 soldiers a month were found to be suffering from mental health problems. The total number of cases, 727, equates to almost 10% of the entire British military presence in Iraq – and 66 were so badly affected that they had to be airlifted home. So far around 2500 US and 113 British soldiers have died in Iraq.
I think Murtha is Right time to leave
June 18th, 2006 at 2:02 pmExcellent post Tobey… Of course they won’t show this kind of information on the local news channel… But I wonder if it would do good to email it to the real journalists - Jon Stewart and Stephen Colbert? I plan to email it to everyone I know. Thanks
June 18th, 2006 at 2:11 pmTobey,
Any stats on how this compares to Vietnam or any other wars?
June 18th, 2006 at 2:14 pm50# Full link here http://www.sundayherald.com/56277
June 18th, 2006 at 2:15 pmMighty damn brave of Rove to shout ’stay the course’ from the safety of the White House. He’s nothing but another cowardly draft-dodging chickenhawk!
June 18th, 2006 at 2:15 pmChris Green,
I had no idea that the historical consensus was that we should have stayed in somalia. Is it really?
Well, Osama bin Laden’s opinion seems to be that it was quite fun for Clinton to do what he did. Which is why I fail to see the genius of holding it up as some kind of standard to be followed according to Murtha. Yeah, let’s let the terrorists beat us and run home! Good model!
How do you feel about reagan’s action in beirut? Or selling weapons to iran because their friends had taken some hostages?
To be quite honest, I have no clue about Reagan and Beirut, which thus caused me to not say anything about it since I’m not in the business of talking about things I have no clue about.
unbelievable,
Ignore Seixon, he just makes crap up to get attention. And when you call him out on his utter lack of knowledge or facts, he’ll just start whining about how you’re trying to slander him.
You see? This is what you do. What I say doesn’t matter, you pop up trying to spite me from the start. I showed that you lied and lied about not being provided links. Now you’re just here to spread filth about me again. How pathetic.
It’s refreshing to see an elected official act like one. I have a lot of respect for Murtha for standing up for the soldiers to an Administration that is not only unAmerican in character and action - but have already killed more people than the very terrorist they claim to be at war against.
I hesitate to call anyone a terrorist-sympathizer, but I must ask: wasn’t it terrorists and insurgents that killed our soldiers? Laying the blame on the Bush administration seems to be comforting the enemy who is actually the one responsible for their deaths.
Zookeeper,
Seixon, were you in Somalia? Or Iraq? Or Beirut? Or anywhere except for Norway? Why do you live in Norway anyway? Are you a convicted felon?
So, once again, who are the ones who start right off with ad hominem? You guys are dispicable.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:22 pm#54 - Seixon,
I see that you responded to almost everyone, except to my comment (#30). Can you tell us what Bush’s “course” is beyond “we’ll stand down while the Iraqis stand up”???
June 18th, 2006 at 2:26 pmSo, once again, who are the ones who start right off with ad hominem? You guys are dispicable.
Comment by Seixon
Funny, oh despicable one. But you didn’t answer my question…
June 18th, 2006 at 2:27 pmThere are two things Americans on the left have to catch up on and learn about:
1. The art of disinformation and how it is being used on us in the present day
2. Decode Rove’s thinking in general
We do that, we’re on our way back to health as a nation
June 18th, 2006 at 2:28 pmYou see? This is what you do. What I say doesn’t matter, you pop up trying to spite me from the start. I showed that you lied and lied about not being provided links. Now you’re just here to spread filth about me again. How pathetic.
Comment by Seixon — June 18, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
Seixon you delusional little fool. Not only did you NOT show that I lied, but I showed that you did - repeatedly - to avoid proving anything. You know, for all the time yo spend ‘defending’ your honor, you could actually educate yourself on something besides beer flavors.
You talk just because you like to hear youself talk. That’s a fact. I only posted facts in my statement, thinking Chris would like to know what he’s getting into - a pointless battle with an ignorant moron who doesn’t ever know what he’s talking about. You just blather endlessly and never actually say anything. Typical conservative trick. And yes, you are a conservative. I’m getting close to calling you a neo-con you keep lying like one.
And, for the record, if you were so innocent you wouldn’t have gotten booted from two liberal blogs including KOS…
June 18th, 2006 at 2:29 pmJohn Murtha is giving a lesson to all Dems in how to deal with the phony story line the Rovian Repugs are telling. Just explode it! Rip it to shreds. Don’t respond, just blow it out of the water.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:30 pmHas Murtha lost his marbles?
Comment by Seixon — June 18, 2006 @ 1:07 pm
As usual Seixon, you lobbed the first grenade from your first sentance all the way to your last… But, go ahead and cry about it. Probably why you’re really in Norway… wanted to avoid the draft if your conservative party had instituted one…
Based on Tobey’s article, it sounds like they could use some new soldiers to help out. Why don’t you put your big butt where your big mouth is? Sign up now and show John Murtha what you’re talking about…
June 18th, 2006 at 2:33 pm>Well, Osama bin Laden’s opinion seems to be that it was quite fun for Clinton to do what >he did. Which is why I fail to see the genius of holding it up as some kind of standard to be >followed according to Murtha. Yeah, let’s let the terrorists beat us and run home! Good >model!
Thats why I cited it and the only example I could come up with of a democrat kind of cutting and running. BUt I had no idea the republican stance was that we shoudl have stayed - I can’t find any evidence of this alleged republican position.
>How do you feel about reagan’s action in beirut? Or selling weapons to iran because their >friends had taken some hostages?
>
>To be quite honest, I have no clue about Reagan and Beirut, which thus caused me to not >say anything about it since I’m not in the business of talking about things I have no clue >about.
How about doing a quick google search and a little reading and then replying what you think about it now?
June 18th, 2006 at 2:36 pmAnd selling weapons to iran because their terrorist allies had some hostages of ours? How about that?
You also didn’t address “meekly letting china have our spy plane”.
Good on him. It’s nice to see that Murtha’s not backing off these chickenhawks and fading in the background like so many other Democrats do when they get their own 15 minutes. I’m just surprised that I never got Karl in my Assclowns of the Week. Speaking of which…
Assclowns of the Week is back with the Sliders Edition. On the spit this week:
Gen. Richard Formica (10), doesn’t think murder is necessarily a criminal act.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:37 pmMissouri state Communications Director Spence Jackson (9), for aiding the communication in the Show Me state by banning a blogger from a bill signing.
Michelle Malkin (8), for passing up a legitimate dig in favor of a made-up “scandalâ€.
Dick Cheney (7), for multi-tasking by starting and coordinating an illegal war while making several million quick bucks in the process and for remaining optimistic about the GOP’s chances this Nov.
George Bush (6, 4, 2), for mocking the blind, blindsiding the Iraqi PM and remaining willfully blind to the PM’s decision to offer amnesty to insurgents who’ve killed US troops.
Dennis Hastert (5,) for resurrecting the pummeled remains of 9/11 victims for partisan gain.
Tony Snow (3,) for putting the number 2500 in its proper perspective and
Jane Hamsher (1), for eating our own in a manner that would do the GOP proud.
It’s just as easy for ‘Cut-and-Run’ Murtha to call for surrender from his air conditioned office, or to pronounce Marines guilty of crimes before the investigation is concluded from his air conditiioned office. He is a disgrace.
Comment by BigWussy — June 18, 2006 @ 12:43 pm
Uh, last time I checked Murtha served his country in combat, was bloodied for his country, and now, because he doesn’t agree with a group of right wing sissies who never saw a day of combat in their lives, now you label him a disgrace?
Cool.
Forget a mans service, forget Max Clelland losing his limbs for his country, anyone who disagrees with a Cocaine addicted AWOL from the National Guard spoiled rich boy President, and his fat, ivy league never served a day in uniform bigmouthed political consultant, is a traitor right?
Oh yea, you’re a real peice of work.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:42 pmGen. Richard Formica (10), doesn’t think murder is necessarily a criminal act.
Comment by jurassicpork
Must have a dead hooker in his trunk — again.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:46 pmNice to see someone with a spine stand up to the incompetence and lies of the Bush administration.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:46 pmDoes anyone get the feeling that Rove and most of the other rethuglican loud mouths had thier asses kicked on a daily basis during childhood? It would explain alot.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:47 pmI see the usual right-wing tools are here defending Herr Rove’s statements and vilifying Murtha’s. Typical of a bunch of wannabe badasses chickenhawk Rethuglicans. Why is it that they save the most scorn for Democratic military veterans? “Support the troops!” “Support the troops!” “Unless they’re Democrats, then we’ll slander ‘em.” Sheesh.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:49 pmZookeeper,
No, I won’t answer “how often did you beat your wife?†type of filth. Stop trolling.
Comment by Seixon
Our first exchange, I’m touched that you remember. *sniff*
June 18th, 2006 at 2:50 pmActually, I asked you if you had stopped beating your wife, but close enough.
I’ll let you go now, you probably have to check in with your probation officer…
Good to remember two points:
1. Bush has said that he expects to dump the Iraq problem in the next president’s lap to solve. That means that all these deaths each day, week, month are without even a HOPE that the US will actually win in Iraq. And that’s BUSH talking.
2. The Bush admin continues to deceive about intentions on permanent bases in Iraq. See the quotes here, esp., the LAST one.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:51 pmAsk the troops before the politicians
The poll, conducted in conjunction with Le Moyne College’s Center for Peace and Global Studies, showed that 29% of the respondents, serving in various branches of the armed forces, said the U.S. should leave Iraq “immediately,†while another 22% said they should leave in the next six months. Another 21% said troops should be out between six and 12 months, while 23% said they should stay “as long as they are needed.â€
Different branches had quite different sentiments on the question, the poll shows. While 89% of reserves and 82% of those in the National Guard said the U.S. should leave Iraq within a year, 58% of Marines think so. Seven in ten of those in the regular Army thought the U.S. should leave Iraq in the next year. Moreover, about three-quarters of those in National Guard and Reserve units favor withdrawal within six months, just 15% of Marines felt that way. About half of those in the regular Army favored withdrawal from Iraq in the next six months.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:52 pmSeixon,
Why don’t you just repond with teh word “Wahhhh”. At least it would be the only honest thing out of your entire rant above.
You are twisting the situation to make it look like you were right when the exact opposite happened. You claimed that solar warming was responsible for global warming when the sun is not, in the big picture, warming. It is shrinking. Apparently everyone but you seems to be able to grasp that basic fact.
Your NASA article debunked you. And your weatherman and geologist aren’t climate experts - so how exactly does that trumph hundreds of climate and astromony (not astrology you silly boy) experts? It doesn’t. Yet that is your case. Boiled down your hypothesis is junk science with no basis anywhere near reality. Like everything else you spout.
So, you managed to completely ignore my suggestion that you go enlist in the war in Iraq and put your neocon ideals to the test…
June 18th, 2006 at 2:52 pmStaying the course is a strategy and is a course of action. Responding to what is happening in the field is what you should do, not doing whatever the hell you feel like. For Iraq to be successful, we have to wait until the Iraqis are able to take care of security without us there to help. If you think staying the course isn’t a strategy, then I’ll love to hear your opinion on deployments in Germany, Japan, and South Korea. - Comment by Seixon
I’m saying there needs to be much more to “the course” than just saying we’re going to stay it. That’s why I asked if you could tell me if there was anything more concrete to it than “we’ll stand down while they stand up.” I don’t think there is, which is a large reason why the troops don’t have a good handle on what the overall day-to-day mission is. A concrete set of goals have not been laid out.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:55 pmThe forces do seem to be responding to things on a day-to-day basis as opposed to following a real plan, and that’s a serious problem. It will lead to us staying there indefinitely, which is not in anyone’s interests.
Here’s the story on Roves glorious military career,go to:
June 18th, 2006 at 2:58 pmtalkleft.com/new_archieves/007928.htlm
That should answer any questions about Roves’ fat backside!
Murtha’s shown the way.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:00 pmNow other Democrats must organize to fight back in the same way but to expand the ridicule to include the likes of Hasert, Boehner, Blunt, Frist, McConnell, Sessions, Cheney, Bush—all of the big, fancing-talking cowards who wouldn’t fight when the country begged them to and who must now, finally, have to pay for it.
>Why? What does it matter? If you think Reagan’s Beirut strategy was also a bad idea, how does that help Murtha at all?
This discussion is about rove calling democrats cut-and-runners, particularly murtha. There’s a much better history of republicans cut-and-running, and precious few examples (apparently, only somalia, which I had no idea rove was against our withdrawal from) from democrats.
Could you please summarize your objections to the 4 simple points of murtha’s iraq proposal without either an ad-hominem attack on him, or without attacking some other made-up proposal that you ascribe to him?
June 18th, 2006 at 3:02 pmMake that ‘and outed Joe Wilson’s wife’.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:04 pm“Yeah, a study on solar activity and cosmic flux has nothing to do with the Sun’s role in warming. Nope, not at all! LOL. Commenty by Seixonâ€
You’re trying to make a report on the daily fluxuation in electromagnetic radiation of solar flares responsible for the long-term affects of Global Warming.
Something that varies slightly, which does not produce heat, cannot be responsible for a prolonged and steady upward clime in temperature.
It’s an absurd claim you’ve made and you can’t even get past your own ego to see it.
The sun is both cooling and shrinking on a daily basis over the course of billions of years. Not the reverse. Go borrow a grade school textbook and read all about it for yourself at your own level. Apparently you don’t understand it at a level geared toward 15-16 year olds…
June 18th, 2006 at 3:12 pmTell me, somebody, two things:
1) Why, if it’s inappropriate to establish a timetable because somehow this isn’t supporting our troops, it’s also inappropriate to ask the Iraqi government for a timetable for expressing its sovereignty by providing security for Iraq? Without our assistance. That way, everybody wins, right? The Iraqis are secure, Iraqis are in complete charge of their own markets and resources, running their own foreign policy, and no American troops are in the country. They’re standing up on schedule while we stand down on schedule. Let’s have a Congressional resolution demanding that the elected government of Iraqi provide a timetable!
Well, maybe that’s a problem. Maybe we want American troops in the country. Maybe we’d rather not have the Iraqis running their own foreign policy, or pursuing a course with their resources that we don’t find favorable.
2) Why, after five years of seeing things turn out entirely different than predicted by the Bush Administration, the Republicans’ Party, and its acolytes (see trolls above) we don’t just point to their repeated inability to link the wrong, damaging, expensive, counterproductive results with their actions and say, “Why should we listen to a word that falls out of you mouth?”
June 18th, 2006 at 3:16 pmMurtha’s segment was surrounded by wall to wall lying. They even aired an anti net neutrality ad. Transcript.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:18 pmChris Green,
Could you please summarize your objections to the 4 simple points of murtha’s iraq proposal without either an ad-hominem attack on him, or without attacking some other made-up proposal that you ascribe to him?
So you seriously think that Murtha was smart in using Somalia as an example to follow? If not, what was wrong about my statement that he’s lost his marbles?
What 4 simple points? Murtha wants to leave Iraq by the end of the year. Simple. That would be just like Somalia and all other failures, where we would leave a nascent democracy to be terrorized by al Qaeda resulting in a new Taliban-like Afghanistan.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:27 pmunbelievable,
It’s an absurd claim you’ve made and you can’t even get past your own ego to see it.
An absurd claim that scientists are actually citing and looking into. Interesting. Here I will cite again from my actual scientific study that you still can’t bother with evaluating since you keep pretending the link doesn’t work:
Wow so the very issue I have brought up is “intensely debated” by the climate scientists. Yet here you are telling me I am lying and that this issue is bogus. Who am I to believe, a scientific study that cites other studies, or… you?
Hmmm.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:31 pmThat would be just like Somalia and all other failures, where we would leave a nascent democracy to be terrorized by al Qaeda resulting in a new Taliban-like Afghanistan.-Comment by Seixon
And how’s that different from the current state of Afghanistan, exactly? Seems to me we haven’t exactly left that country in great condition now, have we?
June 18th, 2006 at 3:31 pmWow so the very issue I have brought up is “intensely debated†by the climate scientists. Yet here you are telling me I am lying and that this issue is bogus. Who am I to believe, a scientific study that cites other studies, or… you?
Hmmm.
Comment by Seixon
The scientific community has done the field work. You have not. The scientistific community has given its verdict.
You are wrong.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:33 pmIt’s unfortunate that these exchanges focus on ‘cutting/running’ versus ’staying the course’, and it illustrates well that the Repugs have framed the discussion to their advantage.
We have no option but to change course because Bush’s course is effectively taking us over a cliff… but ‘change course’ does not equal ‘cutting/running’. It’s a shame we can’t make that point.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:34 pmDrSinker,
And how’s that different from the current state of Afghanistan, exactly? Seems to me we haven’t exactly left that country in great condition now, have we?
Ah, so al Qaeda is running terrorist training camps and the current administration in Afghanistan is roping George Bush along pretending like they are going to give up Osama bin Laden whom they are protecting? Sure doesn’t sound like the same thing to me… Oh, and FYI, we haven’t “left” Afghanistan yet, so you might want to correct your statement.
Gerald Gibson,
The scientific community has done the field work. You have not. The scientistific community has given its verdict.
And who are you? Spokesman for every scientist in the world? What a crock. I cited a scientific study done in 2004 about this “intensely debated” issue, and now you are pretending that they’ve already come to a conclusion about it. Where’s the press release from All the Scientists in the World Foundation saying this? Oh, Al Gore’s new movie. Right. He speaks for all scientists. Yup. (Well except for all of the ones who had been quoted in the paper having said that he made errors and misleads people with his movie…. Cough.)
June 18th, 2006 at 3:40 pmAh, so al Qaeda is running terrorist training camps and the current administration in Afghanistan is roping George Bush along pretending like they are going to give up Osama bin Laden whom they are protecting? Sure doesn’t sound like the same thing to me… Oh, and FYI, we haven’t “left†Afghanistan yet, so you might want to correct your statement.-Seixon
You’re right, we haven’t left Afghanistan, and it’s a mess. If Afghanistan is a wreck, and it’s a much smaller country than Iraq, how can we ever hope that the current admin can be trusted to get it right in Iraq?!?!
June 18th, 2006 at 3:44 pmHmmmmm. I don’t ever remember learning how to “stay the course” in Basic Training or AIT or in any other susequent training after permanent duty assignment. Nope, we learned to adapt and change with the on going situation.
Staying the course only means that Bush and friends can’t adapt to the current situation.
You would know that if you served a little time in the military.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:46 pmOne of the great lessons of WWII was the “stay the course” inflexibility of the Nazis versus the “delegated responsibilities” and “can do” attitude of the Americans. On DDay while Hitler remained in his stupor the Nazis soldiers “stayed the course” waiting for victory to just make itself happen.
The Americans on the other hand laid out plans as best they could and then readjusted them from the top all the way down to the foot soldier on the fly as neccessary to accomidate new situations they were confronted with.
Guess who won DDay? And why?
Fantasizing, dreaming, hoping, praying, faith in an outcome is no way to achieve victory. The republicans put a fool in charge of the military who learned all the wrong lessons from history and now we ALL walk the path of a fool. With the soldier out front…
June 18th, 2006 at 3:47 pmGerald Gibson,
The scientific community has done the field work. You have not. The scientistific community has given its verdict.
And who are you? Spokesman for every scientist in the world? What a crock. I cited a scientific study done in 2004 about this “intensely debated†issue, and now you are pretending that they’ve already come to a conclusion about it. Where’s the press release from All the Scientists in the World Foundation saying this? Oh, Al Gore’s new movie. Right. He speaks for all scientists. Yup. (Well except for all of the ones who had been quoted in the paper having said that he made errors and misleads people with his movie…. Cough.)
Comment by Seixon
Why do you come to this site if you learn NOTHING from what is printed?
There is no scientific debate about whether human activity is contributing to global warming. Science Magazine analyzed 928 peer-reviewed scientific papers on global warming published between 1993 and 2003. Not a single one challenged the scientific consensus the earth’s temperature is rising due to human activity. In 2002, the Bush administration’s EPA concluded that global warming the the last 20 years was “due mostly to human activity.â€
June 18th, 2006 at 3:49 pmSeixon,
From the “real scientists” over at realclimate:
There is little evidence for a connection between solar activity (as inferred from trends in galactic cosmic rays) and recent global warming.
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=42
June 18th, 2006 at 3:49 pmDrSinker,
You’re right, we haven’t left Afghanistan, and it’s a mess. If Afghanistan is a wreck, and it’s a much smaller country than Iraq, how can we ever hope that the current admin can be trusted to get it right in Iraq?!?!
It’s a mess? According to who? There’s violence there like in Iraq, but painting it completely black doesn’t sound especially reflected to me. Whether or not you trust Bush to get it right in Iraq doesn’t mean you should advocate leaving Iraq altogether and inevitably leaving it a lot bigger mess than it is now.
Spudge,
Hmmmmm. I don’t ever remember learning how to “stay the course†in Basic Training or AIT or in any other susequent training after permanent duty assignment. Nope, we learned to adapt and change with the on going situation.
You’ve just summarized what staying the course is, goomba.
You would know that if you served a little time in the military.
Apparently you can’t see that you are describing the same thing as staying the course. I’m sorry the military wasn’t able to provide you with critical reading and logic skills.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:52 pmGerald,
There is no scientific debate about whether human activity is contributing to global warming. Science Magazine analyzed 928 peer-reviewed scientific papers on global warming published between 1993 and 2003. Not a single one challenged the scientific consensus the earth’s temperature is rising due to human activity. In 2002, the Bush administration’s EPA concluded that global warming the the last 20 years was “due mostly to human activity.â€
Oh, I’m sure CO2 emissions contribute to global warming, but how much? That factoid that TP keeps running has already been discredited because the author of it later had to correct it and also it was shown that it was a selective way of searching through the articles. Not only that, it is a factoid and meaningless. How does one go about challenging a consensus that doesn’t exist? You can’t. There is no “consensus” on the issue, and many, many scientists have said as much in various newspaper articles in relation to Al Gore’s new film. Even scientists that are friendly towards Gore.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:55 pmDrSinker,
From the “real scientists†over at realclimate:
There is little evidence for a connection between solar activity (as inferred from trends in galactic cosmic rays) and recent global warming.
I see. So the word of a few self-promoting global warming fanatic scientists are the Oracle while the scientists that I cited, in a study on solar activity, said that there is evidence. Even Realclimate admits that there is “little evidence”, meaning that there is some.
I posted an entire study into the issue, and instead of that, you believe blanket statements from obviously partisan sources on the issue. What a hoot.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:58 pmcongratulations! another hijacked thread…
June 18th, 2006 at 3:58 pmComment by Seixon
And the pope said the world was flat beyond a doubt and had the scientists condemed … no I think I will stick with the scientists… unless you can back up your ASSERTIONS with FACTS…links…. SOMETHING…. you look like a fool wasting my time here.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:00 pmIt’s a mess? According to who? -Seixon
Just about anyone who’s there, if you’re paying attention: from an article in Newsday this week:
http://www.newsday.com/ news/ nationworld/ ny-wotali0618,0,3588445.story?coll=ny-top-headlines
Heckofa job, as some would say.
Whether or not you trust Bush to get it right in Iraq doesn’t mean you should advocate leaving Iraq altogether and inevitably leaving it a lot bigger mess than it is now.-Seixon
I’m not advocating that, and neither is Murtha if you paid attention to what he said. Nice attempt at a straw man, goomba.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:02 pmI posted an entire study into the issue, and instead of that, you believe blanket statements from obviously partisan sources on the issue. What a hoot.
Comment by Seixon
You are cherry picking articles to try to make it look like you have a point. That is not how science works. A global modal of all inputs and outputs is what scientists look at when coming to a conclusion. This is not what you are doing. It is like you are trying to say that because a scientist has an article showing that the sun is warm that this proves your case…. Science doesnt work that way.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:03 pmI watched the “debates” on C-Span - quick on his feet, persuasive in his tone, strident when necessary - I see Mutiny Murtha having quite a career on Air America if he ever retires. (And before progs become unglued over Murtha’s nickname, just remember when you cite his brilliant war record that General Benedict Arnold had been a war hero, too….)
June 18th, 2006 at 4:05 pmI watched the “debates†on C-Span - quick on his feet, persuasive in his tone, strident when necessary - I see Mutiny Murtha having quite a career on Air America if he ever retires. (And before progs become unglued over Murtha’s nickname, just remember when you cite his brilliant war record that General Benedict Arnold had been a war hero, too….)
Comment by mighty aphrodite
As soon as you can figure out how to attack the people that attacked America on 911 get back with us on your authority on military wisdom and King loving conservative loyalist benedict arnolds such as yourself.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:08 pmGerald,
And the pope said the world was flat beyond a doubt and had the scientists condemed … no I think I will stick with the scientists… unless you can back up your ASSERTIONS with FACTS…links…. SOMETHING…. you look like a fool wasting my time here.
You’re unhinged. I already gave you facts that backed up what I said, from a science study done by Finnish scientists in 2004. You balked at it and pretended that it was no longer debated, by providing no evidence what so ever. Obviously you chose this direction because you could not back up your falsehoods.
DrSinker,
Afghanistan is a democracy now without the Taliban ruling everyone with arcane religious rules. There is still a security problem, one that a UN and NATO force is working together on.
Heckofa job, as some would say.
Yeah, tell that to EVERYONE involved in the mission, which isn’t just the Bush administration. It’s beyond cliche to blame Bush for everything he remotely has anything to do with.
I’m not advocating that, and neither is Murtha if you paid attention to what he said. Nice attempt at a straw man, goomba.
Actually, he is. Murtha is advocating pulling all troops out of Iraq by the end of the year. If that’s not the position, please give what you think it is, and you might want to back that up with Murtha’s own words.
It’s full withdrawal. That was Murtha’s plan back 6 months ago, and it’s the same now.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:08 pmSome context to Seixon’s comment on consensus:
http://www.realclimate.org/index.php?p=86
I’m not going to bother arguing with him because we already did in previous threads:
http://thinkprogress.org/ 2006/ 06/ 11/ where-theres-a-will/
http://thinkprogress.org/ 2006/ 06/ 10/ al-got-the-science-right
June 18th, 2006 at 4:10 pmYou’re unhinged. I already gave you facts that backed up what I said, from a science study done by Finnish scientists in 2004. You balked at it and pretended that it was no longer debated, by providing no evidence what so ever. Obviously you chose this direction because you could not back up your falsehoods.
Comment by Seixon
The evidence I refer you to is thousands of scientists … hundreds of studies …. you provide one cherry picked study that does not back up your claim… it only shows ONE of many inputs and outputs into the problem.
Exactly what do you do for a living? It sure cannot be anything like engineering or science… because you obviously dont know how to reason your way through a complex problem.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:11 pmGerald,
You are cherry picking articles to try to make it look like you have a point. That is not how science works. A global modal of all inputs and outputs is what scientists look at when coming to a conclusion. This is not what you are doing. It is like you are trying to say that because a scientist has an article showing that the sun is warm that this proves your case…. Science doesnt work that way.
Yet another strawman. I never said it proves that the Sun is responsible for all the warming. I simply pointed out, that contrary to unbelievable’s claims, that the Sun’s contribution to global warming IS an issue that is widely debated within the scientific community. You have now pretended that I brought up the article for an entirely different reason.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:12 pmActually, he is. Murtha is advocating pulling all troops out of Iraq by the end of the year. If that’s not the position, please give what you think it is, and you might want to back that up with Murtha’s own words.
It’s full withdrawal. That was Murtha’s plan back 6 months ago, and it’s the same now.
Comment by Seixon
Murtha is saying nothing more than what many regular everyday REPUBLICANS have said… we should have taken out Saddam then got the hell out of those peoples country….
Not too hard to understand for you is it?
Not that I agree with him on the getting Saddam part… at least not until we have addressed the 911 attacks first.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:14 pmRove’s slogan chiding Democrats with “cut and run” has no basis in fact.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:14 pmIt’s a catchy slogan that has picked up traction among the Fox viewers and others in the media as well, but it means nothing. It is not true.
Bush and Rove have no right to wage the oedipal relationship between Bush II and Bush I on the backs of the rest of America; as Bush believes his father “cut and ran” in Desert Storm. He says the words, because he knows people don’t know or recall history that would prove his lies.
What is a particular souce of disgust is that he and all of Bush&Co have no military experience, much less in battle, yet the lemmings believe their lying slogans, and even more distressing, the media repeats it, just in case someone didn’t hear it the first hundred times.
The Republicans’ Party has been continually wrong about where “the course” was taking us, and how long the voyage would last, how rough the seas would be, and how much the trip would cost.
Once again, why are we paying attention to these people? Why are we not asking them why we should bother taking seriously a single word they say?
June 18th, 2006 at 4:16 pmMr. Gibson - Being half Irish, my family has no great love for the English in history. So don’t try hanging a royalist association or Murtha/Arnold moniker on ME….
June 18th, 2006 at 4:19 pmHappy Father’s Day!
Once again, why are we paying attention to these people? Why are we not asking them why we should bother taking seriously a single word they say?
Comment by Brian C.B
Because the “leaders” of the “opposition” party are mostly subserviant. If they would do as you suggest then things would change… but the silence of the democrats and the half hearted support/opposition leaves the right looking like they MIGHT have a point when this is nothing more than illegal greedy aggression backed up with giving Vietnam another shot … because one Vietnam wasnt enough…
How many times does it take at being humiliated before you learn that you ONLY defeat people in their own homeland one way… genocide (aka WWII). There are FAR more people in Iraq today that would love to kill some Americans than there was before… and that increases each time we kill someones family member. That didnt matter in WWII .. well because we pretty much fire bombed everybody we could to death. THAT is how you do it… other than that you DONT do it at all. And I would like the see the right try to justify WWII style all out killing on Iraq….
June 18th, 2006 at 4:22 pmI think Seixon’s appeal to the authority of Norwegian “Meteorologists and Astrologers” on climate change were particularly persuasive:
http://thinkprogress.org/ 2006/ 06/ 10/ al-got-the-science-right
I think Seixon, being the international man of mystery that he is, hangs out with Norwegian “Meteorologists and Astrologers” all the time, that’s why he knows so much.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:23 pmAfghanistan is a democracy now without the Taliban ruling everyone with arcane religious rules. -Seixon
You can’t be serious. Did you completely miss the story of the man who was sentenced to death for converting to Christianity? Oh yeah, Afghanistan’s a great democracy with a small security problem if we believe you. They’re not producing heroin on a massive scale or anything either.
You’re high on some kind of special cool aid there Seixon. By the way, it must be sheer agony for you to live in Norway.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:24 pmCan you describe the four points in murtha’s iraq proposal and your objections to them? Each is one sentance long, and its trivial to find the actual proposal on the internet. Surely you aren’t attacking his proposal without reading it, when its easy to find, and was widely reported in the press, are you?
>What 4 simple points? Murtha wants to leave Iraq by the end of the year.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:24 pmMr. Gibson - Being half Irish, my family has no great love for the English in history. So don’t try hanging a royalist association or Murtha/Arnold moniker on ME….
Happy Father’s Day!
Comment by mighty aphrodite
I dont have to “hang” anything …Your actions speak volumes… and your ancestry means nothing.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:24 pmSo what if American troops suddenly left Iraq? What would be the messy consequences that Republicans are so afraid of?
On the other hand, what if the troops stay another three years, then leave? Would consequences be essentially the same? Would a military coup take place a few weeks after the troops were gone with Iraq being right back where it was in 2003?
Nothing would have changed, except increased American casualties, the flight of a trillion or so dollars and Bush going into the record books as a tainted troublemaker who, with his eyes closed and thinking the dice were loaded, shot it all on one roll and lost it all.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:26 pmDrSinker,
You can’t be serious. Did you completely miss the story of the man who was sentenced to death for converting to Christianity? Oh yeah, Afghanistan’s a great democracy with a small security problem if we believe you. They’re not producing heroin on a massive scale or anything either.
You’re high on some kind of special cool aid there Seixon. By the way, it must be sheer agony for you to live in Norway.
It’s still much better than it was under the Taliban, can’t you just bite your lip and admit it? I never said it was perfect. They are producing heroin on a massive scale because that’s an easy way for them to make money. Obviously the world community needs to help out so that they can find other ways to live a life that is comfortable enough. Or I guess we could reinstate the policies of the Taliban and kill everyone growing poppies. Would that be more of a democracy ya think?
It’s lovely here in Norway. Why else would I have stayed here for as long as I have? Try checking your biased assumptions at the door.
Chris Green,
His 4-point plan:
In other words, move all our troops out of Iraq and leave some of them in Kuwait, and Afghanistan. How is that not cutting and running from Iraq? It’s full withdrawal with one pound of icing on top to mask it as something else.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:32 pmIn other words, move all our troops out of Iraq and leave some of them in Kuwait, and Afghanistan. How is that not cutting and running from Iraq? It’s full withdrawal with one pound of icing on top to mask it as something else.
Comment by Seixon
Are you saying that NO army has every won by moving their forces into a different position?
June 18th, 2006 at 4:34 pmWow, the 29% are “staying the course”, here, which involves comparing a 37-year Marine vet Congressman to Benedict Arnold, quoting oil-company-sponsored “scientists”, and whining about Larry Johnson’s accurate take on Rove’s evil driving his mother to suicide. Facts have a liberal bias, 29 percenters, and all of your empty words haven’t challenged a single fact. Live by the Hate, die by the Hate, if we’re lucky.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:36 pmGerald - You’re right (pun intended!!) I realize how foolish you were to attack ME when I was criticizing Mutiny Murtha - but then figured your NON-PARALLEL assertion was not due to a mean, lowdown nature. Some folks just don’t know any better and do the best they can with what they have…..my condolences…..
June 18th, 2006 at 4:36 pmGerald - You’re right (pun intended!!) I realize how foolish you were to attack ME when I was criticizing Mutiny Murtha - but then figured your NON-PARALLEL assertion was not due to a mean, lowdown nature. Some folks just don’t know any better and do the best they can with what they have…..my condolences…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite
The Saudis sure must like friends like you.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:38 pmSeixon, you should move to Afghanistan, it’s real nice there. You are an idiot.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:39 pmGerald,
Are you saying that NO army has every won by moving their forces into a different position?
You can’t win a battle you’re not present for… ;) It’s not a “different” position, it’s a position consisting of leaving the battlefield. I’d love to have seen the Allied Forces take Germany without actually being in Germany.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:40 pmMurtha on Rove…
From Think Progress:ROVE (TAPE): Like too many Democrats, it strikes me they are ready to give the green light to go to war, but when it gets tough and when it gets difficult, they fall back on that party’s old…
June 18th, 2006 at 4:42 pmFrank Murtha =