Snow: There Is Too Much Focus on Kidnapped U.S. Soldiers
Snow: There Is Too Much Focus on Kidnapped U.S. Soldiers
On Friday, two U.S. troops were kidnapped at a checkpoint in Iraq. They remain missing. This morning on Fox News Sunday, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow criticized the press for spending too much time covering their plight. Watch it:
Last week at a White House press briefing, Snow was asked for a reaction to the death toll for U.S. troops in Iraq reaching 2,500. Snow responded: “It’s a number.â€
Transcript from Fox:
The thing is the way the war is being covered — and we’ve seen it right now, we have two U.S. servicemen, and god bless them, we hope they’re okay. We’re focusing on them and we forget that since Zarqawi was killed, hundreds of bad guys have been rounded up, there has been a lot of intelligence. The Iraqis have gone ahead mobilized 50,000 men going in the five Baghdad neighborhoods. There is a lot going on there.
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How much proof do we need that this White House – we can assume its press secretary speaks for the White House – does not care about the soldiers? They line the pockets of their campaign contributors with no bid contracts that fail to provide adequately for the troops. They do not adequately treat them medically and psychologically upon their return. They have placed the troops in an untenable situation with no clear mission, with no end in sight – and yet, they declare they will stay the course.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:09 amThere is no one in this white house who has spent any time “walking in the shoes” of those who serve. The White House has exploited the patriotism of troops, they have advertised the military as an avenue toward education and a brighter future, but the truth is seen in the words of Snow, Rumsfeld, Bush et al.
They don’t care.
Tony seems to be as vacuous a spokesman as he was as a Fox newsreader.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:10 am[...] Click me! [...]
June 18th, 2006 at 10:15 amWhat will it take for the American people to realize that America is becoming a “a shadow of itself?” The right wing Nazi disease is literally destroying our country, destroying the sense of what is right, wrong, the truth….reason. When people are so confused that they allow this kind of talk to go by unchallenged, not to mentionn the constant news of criminal behavior by our government, they deserve what they get. I am no longer proud to be an American.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:18 amWhen he took this job everyone was talking about how charming he was. I think it took about a month for his real character to show through — the one where no one matters but him and Bush. I thought he’d keep the facade going for at least another few months. That just shows how little they care about the plight of anyone else.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:18 amCome, can’t we show Zarqawi’s bloated corpse a few more times or something else useful and of propaganda value for the Whitehouse?
-GSD
June 18th, 2006 at 10:20 amSo is Tony suggesting that we “forget” about those missing soldiers? This is a situation they have been hoping would not happen, and we all know why. But what a cold-blooded response. “Look over here!!” Let’s focus on all the ‘progress’ instead! 2… that’s a number too. I am angry now. Thanks Tony. Good job, Smegma Man.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:22 amToo much focus? I have barely heard anything on the news!
June 18th, 2006 at 10:22 amThere is no point in discussing why “they” at the white house do things any longer. It is past that point. We are being “lead” by criminals. Period. Why don’t people get that?
June 18th, 2006 at 10:27 amWhen I just thought I couldn’t depise these people any more than I already do!
As a military family, I hope Snow is the recipient of his own “Snow Job” soon-when he has to explain why more than half of the administration he represents is criminal.
Too bad Tony didn’t get to “take one for the WOT” while HE was in Baghdad!
June 18th, 2006 at 10:29 amThe man has no soul.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:31 amThe government in power has no soul……….they are not good men.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:34 amGod I hope this country can recover. I have not given up yet.
‘it’s a number’
so is 58,000, the number of kills the Viet Cong managed to accomplish in Vietnam.
so that means that only 56,500 more deaths to go before defeat is realized by the head in the sand US gov.
War is war. It doesn’t matter where.
Another Pyrrhic victory in the making for the US gov.
Let’s draw a few parallels here; an analogy or two.
The war that was to last at the most six months at a cost of sixty billion dollars is approaching ten times the original projected cost.
that’s a number too. one too great to bear.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:34 amTony Snow has turned out to be dumber than Scotty which nobody thought possible > lol.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:40 amFROM HULLABALOO / DIGBY BLOG
Here’s some hope instead of just whining.
Link
June 18th, 2006 at 10:41 amNext time Bush starts getting buddy-buddy in a press conference (since he’s brimming with so much confidence these days), why not ask him for his thoughts on the same thing? Bush likes to play good cop while his flackeys persist with the same old “MSM, far-left elite media” schtick, so put him on the spot with it; see if he’ll be bad cop.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:54 amHow repulsive.
It’s just some poor person’s kid getting shot at over there, instead of them or their kids. And they wouldn’t know that Hell because they opted out of going.
I say the King and his court need to act like it and lead the charge like Kings are supposed to. Drop them all off in Baghdad and dont let them come home until they are read to end this debacle.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:07 amPost 17 > Napoleon of France personally led his troops into battle, and even got wounded once, but Bush baby is too cowardly to ever lead an army in war! He, Cheney, and Rummy are 3 felons who love to make war, but not fight in it! Even their children are protected from fighting!
June 18th, 2006 at 11:15 amTruth to Power, Congressman Jack Murtha passionately and with fore thought was incisive on this mornings Meet the Press regarding the administrations take on the war and what is real.
bless him
richb
June 18th, 2006 at 11:16 amnumbers, like figures, can lie too.
take pennies, for instance. a penny that was minted in 1979 and before was 95 percent copper. They weighed approximately three grams. 150 of them weigh 450 grams or more, close to one pound. A pound of copper sells on the spot market for $3.23. 150 pennies US minted before 1980 are worth $3.23 today. That’s the reality.
A penny saved is two pennies earned these days.
it’s bizarro world out there. You can thank George Bush and the ‘Republicans.’
time for peace and prosperity. war and poverty suck.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:19 amThey’re numbers? I thougt they were brave U.S. soldiers that died for our “freedom”. What’s up with that Tony? Is W a liar when he says that?
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
June 18th, 2006 at 11:22 amSniper rifles and fertilizer; a sleeper cell at the White House?
Give SSA your opinion. Only at SSA
Too much focus of coverage ??? Compared to ??? Natalee Holloway ??? Since when a missing teenager is 10 times more important than two US soldiers ??
Is this new guy Tony Snow an idiot or is he just pretending ???
June 18th, 2006 at 11:28 amIts a number?? Like 3 years in Iraq? Or 5 years chasing Bin Laden? Or 6 years of this clown screwing up our Country? When can we hold Bush accountable for taking us to Iraq without having a real plan for keeping the peace? When can we impeach him for spying on us or his involvment in outing Valerie Plame?
Can’t we go back to hating our president for his sexual behavior? I’m tired of reading about dead soldiers. I want to go back to the good old days when other countries liked us and made fun of our president for sleeping around. I want a president that can speak for more than a minute without saying “uh”. PLEASE LORD, save us from Bush and the NeoCons.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:34 amThe following is a translation guide for the rhetoric that spews forth from this Rovean Executive monarchy, (and may the American people wake up and begin to connect the dots!):
Family values = get my family members (delay’s wife et al.) the highest value on their returns as a means to circumvent lobbying laws;
War on Terror = a catch all phrase that produces emotional distractions from an honest debate on our foreign policies;
NSA spying program = bend the laws and/or rewrite them to allow an illegal, constitution- violating, program to continue to spy on law abiding Americans;
War in Iraq = profiteering for Cheney’s and Bush’s oil buddies;
Support our troops = hollow slogan used to hide this administration’s incompetence in giving our fine men and women in uniform enough effective equipment to survive in hostile conditions, and as an emotional distraction to hold at bay any meaningful dialogue as to just what supporting our troops actually means;
Ban on gay marriage = last ditch call to the old school America where bigotry and issues if prejudice and suppremacy ran violently amok;
So on and so on!
This cabal of executive authoritarians the MSM loves to call the Bush Administration is making things up as it goes. It has no measure except unto itself. The Congress has been coopted into giving up its oversight responsibilities. The Judiciary is firmly in the hands of Republican sentiment, even as the ultra-clnservative base of the Republican party continues to attack it. There is no effective political opposition to the Rovean divide and conquer strategy used by this White House.
It seems that Americans of every ilk have allowed for too long a free pass to this Administration’s folly. So here we are, listening to the likes of ex-FOX news personality Tony Snow tell us in cynical terms what is up and what is down.
Well Tony, while you’re around I’d just like to tell you, the time when Americans like you and your Administration can continue to put party and power above the Constitution is about up. And, come this next election cycle, and the 08 elections, your political capital is going down.
I hope Americans who think in Constitutional terms can come out to the polls this November and support candidates who will serve the American people, and not their own vested interests. Politicians and capital interests who act in concert to skew our political institutions and national dialogue away from our Constitutional underpinnings are anathama to our political heritage. These current lawmakers will have to prove to me that they are not, and have not been, Representatives for Profit if they are to garner my vote in the near future.
Let’s put incumbants on the spot as we start this election cycle by asking what profits they may have made from the relationships they have forged with vested interests while doing the people’s business. Simply put, ask all candidates the money questions, but force the incumbant to explain their position on the current tainting of some of their colleagues. Ask them how much they have made from private interests as they have served as public decision-makers. Tell them to include jet travel and family-member financial ties. Let’s just see how much of an effective money making enterprise this current Congress and its Executive allies have made for themselves.
I kon’t know about you, but I am repulsed as I continually hear of the profiteering and financial gains our elected officials have made while supposedly serving the good of a nation of 280 million people. Vote the rascals out in ‘06 and ‘08! -Kevo
June 18th, 2006 at 11:36 amTony Snow’s comments are just indicative of the lack of real care the current administration and Republicans have for our troops. It’s time for all others to let it be known who really supports and cares for our troops put into harms way by politics and downright lies.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:48 amManuel, Trust me when I say, “No person in this administration is “pretending” to be a idiot!
June 18th, 2006 at 11:50 amwell i hope the troops dont get waterboarded to death like the Americans are doing to their prisoners – That would be Ironic eh
June 18th, 2006 at 11:51 amJust released! DUHbya’s crib sheet on Iraq and the Middle East. See how and where he gets his information. Click on Clyde.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:53 amPerspective:
What about Osama bin Laden? Isn’t he the reason we invaded a soveriegn country and overthrew its government? Its been nearly 5 years, and he has dropped out of the news entirely.
Civilians, held without charges, i.e. kidnapped by the United States.
When President Bush last week signed the bill outlawing the torture of detainees, he quietly reserved the right to bypass the law under his powers as commander in chief.
Bush’s trip comes as at least 70,000 troops — most of them Iraqi — prepare to deploy Wednesday on the streets of Baghdad in an effort to bring security to the Iraqi capital, according to the Iraqi Interior
At least 28 people were killed across Iraq on Saturday – 23 of them in Baghdad – as a string of bombings ripped through the capital despite a massive security crackdown.
A New Milestone in Iraq: Five Hundred US Soldiers Dead
by Medea Benjamin
Published on Monday, January 19, 2004 by CommonDreams.org
A new milestone was reached in Iraq this week: the death toll for US soldiers reached the 500 mark. Most of these deaths have occurred since President Bush declared an end to the major hostilities on May 1. … fear that the American people been lulled into accepting these daily casualties, processing them as lightly as they do the day’s weather report or the sports figures. The fact that the media is banned from covering the flag-draped coffins at Dover Air Force Base or that President Bush has not attended one funeral helps shelter the public from the true horror of this daily carnage. And just recently, the press stopped covering the soldiers’ deaths as front-page news.
U.S. death toll in Iraq passes 1,000
Wednesday, September 8, 2004
Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld acknowledged the death toll earlier Tuesday, but told reporters at the Pentagon that going on the offensive against terrorism “has its cost.”
“It should be noted that the civilized world passed the thousandth casualty mark a long time ago,” he said. “Hundreds were killed in Russia last week. And this week, of course, on September 11, 2004, we remember the 3,000 citizens of dozens of countries who were killed on September 11 in 2001.”
US death toll in Iraq reaches 1,500
By Philippe Naughton,
Times Online March 03, 2005
A grim milestone was passed in Iraq today when a US Marine was killed in action south of Baghdad – the 1,500th American soldier to lose his life since the invasion.
It would not give any more details, saying in a statement: “Force protection measures preclude the release of any information that could aid enemy personnel in assessing the effectiveness, or lack thereof, with regard to their tactics, techniques and procedures. The release of more details about the incident could place our personnel at greater risk.”
Worryingly, the number of military deaths has shown no sign of falling since President Bush landed on USS Abraham Lincoln on May 1, 2003 with a banner saying “Mission Accomplished” and declared an end to major combat operations.
Military’s Advice to Reporters: 2,000 Dead in Iraq ‘Not a Milestone’
By E&P Staff
Published: October 25, 2005
U.S. Army Lt. Col. Steve Boylan, director of the force’s combined press center, wrote in an e-mail to reporters, “I ask that when you report on the events, take a moment to think about the effects on the families and those serving in Iraq. The 2,000 service members killed in Iraq supporting Operation Iraqi Freedom is not a milestone. It is an artificial mark on the wall set by individuals or groups with specific agendas and ulterior motives.”
Tony Snow on U.S. Death #2500 in Iraq: “It’s a Number”
By E&P Staff
Published: June 15, 2006
Q Tony, American deaths in Iraq have reached 2,500. Is there any response or reaction from the President on that?
MR. SNOW: It’s a number…
June 18th, 2006 at 12:01 pm2502 Dead
18490 wounded
3 US soldiers missing
72 jounalists killed
337 Contractors killed of 215 are Americans
226 Coalition troops killed
1780 Coalition troop wounded
250,000 Iraqi CIVILIANS KILLED
True cost of war 3 trillion Dollars Including medical costs for wounded
Iraqi Property destroyed (loads of money) ???
and 1 saddam Hussein captured – — – was it worth it
June 18th, 2006 at 12:12 pmexcellent compilation, Briseadh na Faire…
June 18th, 2006 at 12:15 pmcopy, paste and pass it around, all! i know i will!
I really missed Scotty being knocked around by the Whitehouse Press. Looks like Tony’s day is coming soon.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:18 pmThese troop deaths are a number. Besides, have you forgotten that 3,000 Americans died on 9/11?
-GSD
June 18th, 2006 at 12:28 pmThank you. I had included links, but those got blocked by the spam filter. You’ll have to google the stories if you want the links.
I would just like to add:
Let us give a moment of silence for all the lives these numbers represent, as well as the lives of their friends, families and loved ones.
June 18th, 2006 at 12:31 pmUmmm
What was Snow saying about Jimmy Carter again?
June 18th, 2006 at 12:44 pm…and the innocents…
June 18th, 2006 at 12:48 pmjust watch it…
So I guess that will be the Repuppetcans new slogan
“Soldier’s, they’re just numbers”
Funny how number’s are fine when it suits their needs, numbers like:
9-11
3000
Those are just number’s too I guess.
Well it’s good to know that I went to Iraq twice lost 5 Soldiers and all the while I thought we were the best and the cream of the earth we were just numbers.
Hell we already knew that but didn’t think the Bush Ministry was dumb enough to say it on tv.
But we expect no response from Faux News, MSGOP, or CNN (the Conservative News Network), just the same ol Bush is great and the usual BS.
Thanks Tony
June 18th, 2006 at 1:00 pmThere is so much mis-information in this thread it is mund boggleing. Snow’s comment about it being ‘just a number’ was in poor taste, but nobody mentioned that he went on to talk about how each and every one of those killed was individually important. And the topic is about the above video clip, not something that happened last week or last month. And in the video all he says is that there is a lot going on in Iraq besides the 2 two soldiers who are missing. The Iraqi’s and US and the rest of the coalition can’t just drop everything and look for 2 soldiers, they have a country to run and protect.
And whomever posted 250,000 killed, that number is total BS. The actual number is somewhere around 35,000. Sure, a big number, and very unfortunate. But at least 90% of those were killed by Iraqis and foreign fighters.
In regards to Bush being a coward because he isn’t leading our troops in combat, what a laughable statement. Yeah, I’m sure Clinton or Gore would be at the front carrying a rifle.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:03 pmExcellent posts by all, thanks.
I don’t know how the kidnapping of 2 US soldiers could possibly be getting too much coverage, since I learned of it just this minute. I do hope they are released safely, but with shitheads like this white house spokesmodel yapping away constantly, I just don’t know…
Tobey Tall, my answer to you is no, absolutely and positively, NO, it was not worth it — and it never was. I am ashamed…
June 18th, 2006 at 1:05 pmTony Snow, just like bull shit bush but with better language skills……He not only had cancer he is a cancer. This entire administration are nothing more than greedy blood suckers, sucking the life out of america, her people and the world for profit…
I for one have all the info on my own representatives and they are getting voted out as they come up for re- election.By the way they are republican lite enabelers, (dem’s) by their voting record.
While we are taking a moment of silence for our fallen and wounded troops and their famalies let us not forget the nearly 1,500 who lost their lives during the Katrina debacle and bush’s vacations since day one from realety of the people and world beyond power and greed.
May these chicken hawks rot in jail before we are done……….The day I hear a press release that say’s bush meets bubba in the joint will be a day to rejoice….Great posts all…Blessings
June 18th, 2006 at 1:05 pmIn light of the two remarks which have come from the White House Press Secretary over the last week that have belittled and dismissed people who have been injured or killed in the service of their country — as the result of a war which was at best based on seriously flawed (if not outright falsified) intelligence — does anyone REALLY still believe that the White House supports the troops??
This is appalling and a gross insult to the families of those whose loved ones have been lost or who are currently unaccounted for as a result of this conflict.
SHAME ON YOU, TONY!
June 18th, 2006 at 1:06 pmI’m glad we killed Zarqawi, but until we invaded Iraq, and George Bush asked him to kill our troops, had anybody heard of him.
Didn’t Bush say Bring It On? Isn’t that an invitation to kill our troops?
Sure sounds like one.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:16 pmAll this compassion for the welfare of our fellow Americans is just hurting the war effort. Don’t you realize that soldiers are merely cannon fodder to the greater glory of our Commander-in-Chief? So a couple are missing, a few thousand are dead, a few score thousand wounded? What does that matter next to a presidential photo-op?
Only traitors show compassion. Caring for American servicemembers is just plain un-American!
June 18th, 2006 at 1:18 pmYeah, I’m sure Clinton or Gore would be at the front carrying a rifle.
Comment by pjh — June 18, 2006 @ 1:03 pm
Good job. Extra shift premium for you.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:18 pmThis is appalling and a gross insult to the families of those whose loved ones have been lost or who are currently unaccounted for as a result of this conflict.
SHAME ON YOU, TONY!
–
Most familes are patriots and appreciate the sacrifice made for freedom, unlike you. Shame on you, USA hater.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:22 pmAnd I have no clue what that means.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:28 pmpjh
Bush is a coward because rather then taking a stance on Vietnam either pro or anti, he joined the National guard and then failed to pitch up for the last year of his service. He specifically stated in his enrollment that he didn’t want to see combat.
Bush is a coward, because on 9/11 he ran and hid, rather then flying to New York. Just as a hint of real leadership, the Rightwing’s most reviled president, Jimmy Carter, flew to 3 Mile Island, against his advisor’s advice, when it looked like it was about to melt down. Bush would not have done that.
Bush is a coward because he does not admit his own lack of wartime experience, but rather hides behind his pilot pose.
Bush is a coward, because he hires yes-men rather then people who know what they are doing. See Donald Rumsfeld (whose chief wartime experience was getting deferred) Mike Brown (whose resume has been proven bullshit by Time Magazine) and his head of the FDA (also exposed by Time Magazine, and if you are going to call Time liberal media, might I point you to who it named Man of the Year 2004?) Bush is so afraid of dissent, that he cannot allow it anywhere near him, he is a coward because he had Cindy Sheehan escorted out.
Clinton was a coward too, but he wasn’t a hypocrit. He didn’t bash his opponents war records, and he wasn’t a warlike president. Bush did exactly that to John McCain and John Kerry, and has taken America into 2 wars in his stint as president.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:30 pmAnd I have no clue what that means.
Comment by pjh
Of coarse you dont… that is why you should not even have an opinion on the subject… you know nothing of which you speak. Educate yourself before condeming other humans and fellow citizens to death for a war and a situtation that you are ignorant of.
I highly suggest everyone watch this… and the republicans most of all… Lessons of War against a people in their own homeland.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:31 pmAnd I have no clue what that means.
Comment by pjh
You know what, pjh? In life, either you get it or you don’t. Dismissed.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:34 pm#48 – Well said, Bruce Gorton. I’m a little pissed off this morning, can you tell?
June 18th, 2006 at 1:38 pmZookeeper
Nah, you strike me as being more passionate then angry.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:40 pmTony Snow opens his mouth and inserts his foot again! Yes, there’s been way too much coverage lately on how those boots aren’t just boots, but are, in fact, attached to the feet, legs, bodies and souls of America’s sons and daughters, fathers and mothers, sisters and brothers. How irresponsible to remind people that there are human beings suffering and dying in this war without end! Is this what the administration means when it refers to “supporting the troops?” Is ths how the “culture of life” shows respect for life?
June 18th, 2006 at 1:41 pmI have no clue, huh? I have served in Afghanistan and Iraq, I speak two of the languages in the region, I have a BS in Intl Relations and I am currently working on my MA in the same field.
So Gore serving a short tour in a very safe occupation just so his Daddy doesn’t get voted out of office is brave?
And Clinton didn’t criticise the war records of his opponents, now that is funny. How can he criticise them when he was an admitted draft dodger?
And just for the record Bush criticised the war record of noone. Go find me a reference. You can’t.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:44 pmHere is the golden nugget:
WALLACE: One other question from Iraq. I am hearing that the U.S. may have found new evidence of Saddam Hussein’s weapons of mass destruction program. What can you tell me about that?
SNOW: Nothing. At this point, what — there have been on a number of occasions, as you know, Charles Duelfer, who used to be the head of the Iraq survey group, and others have said that Saddam was determined to try, to the best of his ability, to have a robust program of weapons of mass destruction, including reconstituting nuclear research at the earliest opportunity.
So it’s no secret that Saddam had ambitions of weapons of mass destruction, but anything that may be uncovered — as you know also, a lot of times you’ll get pieces of evidence, and you need time to assess what’s going on. So I’m afraid I can’t advance that at this moment.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:45 pmVery good Bruce……Could not watch the film, my old iMac is limited but appreciate the thread incase I get some up grades…….Zookeeper…..Keep on posting and breathing we enjoy your posts. By the way how’s the weather where you are.? ……..Blessings
June 18th, 2006 at 1:46 pmAnd just for the record Bush criticised the war record of noone. Go find me a reference. You can’t.
Comment by pjh
Naiveté comes to mind…
Fighting in a war does not give you automatic wisdom about the reasons for war nor the mistakes made in leadership related to war.
War is for defense or it is for evil. Lots of bad things are acceptable in a war of defense… in a war of agression not much is acceptable to nonEvil people. Every loss of an American citizen soldier is a crime in a war of aggression. In a war of defense it is a honorable death. BIG difference.
Lessons not learned from Vietnam …
June 18th, 2006 at 1:54 pmIn regards to Bush’s NG service, there is no proof that he avoided anything. He has an honerable discharge. This ‘produce the records’ are along the lines of a ‘have you stopped beating your wife’ issue. He has the only document you need, and honerable discharge. I’m a veteren. I don’t have any proof that on X day I was serving with Y unit. And I just got out a year ago. I have an honerable discharge, that’s all I need. But Bush needs to produce a document from 35 years ago. Yeah, real fair.
In regards to Rumsfeld, blockhead he served in the Navy.
June 18th, 2006 at 1:58 pmThis is the thing that scares them the most. With the capture of these soldiers we are going to see our torture and detention policies come home to roost. How are Americans going to feel when we see our own photographed in sexual and humiliating poses? How are we going to feel to see our own beaten and tortured? This is their shame made real
June 18th, 2006 at 1:58 pm#52 – Thanks, Bruce. I like your word better. ;)
June 18th, 2006 at 2:06 pmhttp://www.nhgazette.com/news/chickenhawks/bureaucratic_battalion/
Like I said, chief wartime experience- getting defferred. He didn’t serve during wartime.
Next, onto GW’s war record (its PDF, a bit blurry I know, that sucks, but still a good read.)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/nation/2004-09-09bushdocs.pdf
http://www.awolbush.com/documents/BushGuardaugust18.pdf
Just two examples of documented evidence of Bush being AWOL.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:13 pmNaiveté comes to mind…
Fighting in a war does not give you automatic wisdom about the reasons for war nor the mistakes made in leadership related to war.
War is for defense or it is for evil. Lots of bad things are acceptable in a war of defense… in a war of agression not much is acceptable to nonEvil people. Every loss of an American citizen soldier is a crime in a war of aggression. In a war of defense it is a honorable death. BIG difference.
Lessons not learned from Vietnam …
Comment by Gerald Gibson — June 18, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
So what life experience does grant me the right to make comments on the issue? I’ve served overseas in many conflicts, I am highly educated, I still work for the government, I speak several languages and I have spent years living overseas. So at what point do my comments become valid? I have a feeling it is only when you coincide with your own views.
This msg board is such a string of outright lies, exagerations, and regurgitation of myths and fallacies. It’s a big circle-jerk of a bunch of people who know little of what they are talking about. There is no discourse here as a discourse is an exchange of ideas and involves a healthy debate. Instead there is a simple blank acceptance of anything anti-Bush or anti-administration that gets posted. I come in here and point out outright lies that are being posted, but I am immediately accused of being stupid and uninformed. When I prove that I am an educated and informed person who has first hand knowledge of the topics being discussed, probably demanstrating that I am probably one of the most knowledgeble people in the discussion, I am branded naive.
And keep in mind that I have not defended Bush or his policies. I have simply thrown accuracy and fact into the argument, but it seems noone wants that.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:13 pm#56 – Hi Sharon, thanks for reminding me to keep breathing. I get so pissed off — no — passionate, that I forget sometimes! The weather here is sunny with blue skies and a little breeze, but cooler than usual. On Friday we had a big storm move through, and we had lightening & thunder, heavy rain, hail, and bright, bright sunshine — all at the same time. Zoo Jr got a great picture of a rainbow aferward. I’m sitting here eating watermelon so cold it makes my teeth hurt, which is the only thing I have left in the house, and thinking I better get offline and go the grocery store before the “good” people get out of church.
How is the weather there? Great to have you back, I was worried. ;)
June 18th, 2006 at 2:13 pmThis is the thing that scares them the most. With the capture of these soldiers we are going to see our torture and detention policies come home to roost. How are Americans going to feel when we see our own photographed in sexual and humiliating poses? How are we going to feel to see our own beaten and tortured? This is their shame made real
Comment by Dlo — June 18, 2006 @ 1:58 pm
I must have missed the report on our cutting people’s heads off. Can you post a link?
June 18th, 2006 at 2:16 pm#64 – Funny you should mention links, pjh, since I haven’t seen you provide even one to backup all your “accuracy and fact.” If you want to be taken seriously, you could start there.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:20 pmpjh
Actually I can back my arguments, and frankly if you believe Bush and his boys had nothing to do with the Swiftboat Veterans for Truth or the attacks on Senator McCain’s war record during the primaries, you are but naive. Bush used that tactic frequently.
Post your links, and post your sources. You claim that Clinton was a coward, well he was, but he didn’t hold a double standard in his cowardice. That is the difference.
The big problem with Bush, is his policies, and the fact that through his cowardice he strives to silence any and all criticism of those policies. If somebody disagrees with the patriot act? Traitor. If somebody disagrees with the Iraq war? Traitor. If somebody disagrees with torture? Traitor. If somebody actually believes in the bill of rights, or due process, or the Geneva conventions?
And Warcrimes are not about what the other side has done, they are about what you have done. That defence you have raised is frankly like a gang of bankrobbers pointing to another gang of bank robbers and saying “They did it too.”
June 18th, 2006 at 2:27 pmLike I said, chief wartime experience- getting defferred. He didn’t serve during wartime.
Next, onto GW’s war record (its PDF, a bit blurry I know, that sucks, but still a good read.)
http://www.usatoday.com/ news/ nation/ 2004-09-09bushdocs.pdf
http://www.awolbush.com/ documents/ BushGuardaugust18.pdf
Just two examples of documented evidence of Bush being AWOL.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — June 18, 2006 @ 2:13 pm
Same freaking documents Rather was forced to retire over. Yeah, that’s a real credible source. Even CBS admits they aren’t legit.
In regards to Rumsfeld, he was in college. Lots of people took the same route.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:28 pmpjh,
I would suggest that if you are serious about pursuing a Graduate degree you should take a couple of remedial spelling courses or a beginning class in word processing. Contrary to what you seem to thing a spell checker is not a Harry Potter tool. I would suggest also that you and Bush have collected your information about the middle east from the same source (Click on Clyde). You and Duhbya have another thing in common: you both have discharges in your hands, honorable or not.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:30 pmOh yeah, well SCAROO those MIA chumps, eh, Tony?
The great thing about the NeoCon is that their values evaporate the moment there is any demand for their OWN sacrifice.
Give up some political momentum? What sort of shark is that?
A dead shark.
I had a lovely chat at last Friday’s protests with a NeoCon, who wanted to know why I didn’t support the fight on terrorism. I asked him why Commander GFY let Bin Laden escape from Tora Bora, and he said that things happen in war. I asked him why Father GFY was having breakfast with Bin Laden’s brother on Nine-eleven, and he said that it was a coincidence. I asked him why Commander GFY didn’t write any orders to protect the 380 TONS of high-explosives he’s passed out to hostiles who are blowing up our troops.
And he said too much attention is being paid to our blown-up soldiers.
SOOOO HAPPY that Commander GFY has given the hostiles CARTE BLANCHE (that’s French) to TORTURE THE SH*T out of our troops. I’m sure the two who have been kidnapped will have a LOVELY time living it up on the downside of the Decider’s politically motivated policies.
Tony, after all, has to save up for the gold sigmoid. He lost his in the War on Cancer, another fight that Bush has deserted. And the MIA’s? Hell, who misses them here at home? They’re all GAD (Good As Dead), and with Stop Loss and a Deciderized Amerika, they have nothing to come home to, anyhow.
Smile for the cameras, Tony. But wipe the blood of your lips first.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:32 pmYea lets just forget them.
Maybe they’ll go away.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:35 pmpjh, I was right, you just don’t get it.
When you start sounding like an abuse victim making excuses for the abuser, it’s time to pack it in — or back up your shit with links. We will read them, i assure you.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:36 pmThe world according to Snowball is so quaint. Of course there is too much focus on the kidnapped troops – after all, they are just numbers anyway.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:41 pm#64 – Funny you should mention links, pjh, since I haven’t seen you provide even one to backup all your “accuracy and fact.†If you want to be taken seriously, you could start there.
Comment by Zookeeper — June 18, 2006 @ 2:20 pm
I was responding to claims made by others. My statements were in response to statements made by others that were inaccurate. You make an argument, support it. And if someone provides a quote, I can’t provide a link that proves it doesn’t exist.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:52 pm#74 – Weasel words.
June 18th, 2006 at 2:57 pmJudd and Passionate Progressives – Your talent of “selective” viewing and reading is AMAZING!!! I suggest exercising the “money back” option at the “Lookie Lou Speed Reading Course” as your “comprehension” of the story is woefully inadequate. Had I not seen Fox News Sunday or read your little transcript I might have fallen for your disingenuous “report” of Tony Snows’ comments.
But I’m surprised you didn’t remark on John Podesta’s appearance in the “enemy camp” at Fox News. He managed to sound much less strident and angry than your regular prog “contributors”. Why not have an analysis of the “Iraq division” in the Dem Party between the progs and “moderates”? Which position will merit a place on the Party Platform? IF the polls are so reliably in tune with Dem angst in Iraq, why the bolt of 42 reps to assuage their apparently conservative constituents??
June 18th, 2006 at 3:02 pmpjh,
if you support this illegal war so damned much, why don’t you re-enlist? The army’s having a hard time filling its recruitment quotas, I’m sure they could use an experienced veteran like you back in Iraq.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:11 pmpjh,
if you support this illegal war so damned much, why don’t you re-enlist? The army’s having a hard time filling its recruitment quotas, I’m sure they could use an experienced veteran like you back in Iraq.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — June 18, 2006 @ 3:11 pm
Where do I support the war? Show me where I stated support for the war? Again, another shot way off target. Your stating I stated support for the war is as innaccurate as most of the postings here.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:15 pmI don’t blame you, Tony, for not wanting to focus on those “missing” US soldiers too much! Gosh, don’t want to grab hold of THAT “tar baby” now do we?! After all, they’re just “numbers.”
But, hey, Tony, here’s all the good news you can point to next time–it’s a pdf file of a memo sent to State from the Iraq Embassy, where they’re apparently having a lot of problems, and morale is tanking: (warning, will download as a pdf file)
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-srv/opinions/graphics/iraqdocs_061606.pdf
June 18th, 2006 at 3:17 pmOkay, I’ll accept the Killain documents as being discredited (though coincedentally, they are not exactly unsuported by the Bush’s payroll records.)
But that said:
You will agree that we should treat people better then, say, geese right? I mean, we really shouldn’t be treating them in a manner worse then we are willing to treat something we are going to kill and eat right?
Okay.
http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1102AP_Guantanamo_Medical_Rules.html
http://www.phrusa.org/research/torture/news_2005-09-16.html
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/news/archive/2006/06/06/international/i152941D89.DTL
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/06/ap/world/mainD8I304280.shtml
That is just the results from typing Forced Feeding In Gitmo into Google.
Now, people should get to see their lawyers shouldn’t they? I mean, if you have a lawyer you should get to know about it surely? And if you are going to get transfered surely you should know about it?
http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/14827843.htm
Of course, outright torture is only due to be banned, it isn’t quite yet…
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waterboarding
Do I need to really carry on with this?
June 18th, 2006 at 3:18 pmsorry, pjh,
I just did a quick scan…it seems more you support this Administration…so it’s a matter of guilt by association….
I have a BS in Intl Relations and I am currently working on my MA in the same field. – pjh
And I have a Juris Doctor, and spent two summers in Europe studing International Law and Human Rights. I would think with a degree in International Relations you would be apalled at what this Administration is doing. Or is your focus in International Relations more in line with that expressed by the Project for the New American Century?
Gordon, Keep up the good work!
I gotta get back to my studies for the Bar.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:25 pmGordon, Keep up the good work!
Sorry – Gorton, Keep up the good work!
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June 18th, 2006 at 3:29 pmBriseadh na Faire
Not that good, I should have read further into the Killian documents, but didn’t. His statement there is true on that regard. That said, I still figure Bush is a coward, just with 1 less reason then before (the rest of the evidence is damning enough.)
June 18th, 2006 at 3:31 pmLet’s here more about the plite of Tony Snow from his air conditioned Office of Turd Pollish. Yeah, lets support our troops till they get hurt, killed or kidnapped. Yeah that’s the ticket. It’s not like they are college republicans anyway. Anybody have a “We Support Our Troops” sticker for his car??
June 18th, 2006 at 3:34 pmI wasn’t refering to the Killian documents, just your over-all effort to provide documentation.
Keep at it!
June 18th, 2006 at 3:36 pmBriseadh na Faire
Nah, its just that one bugs me. I really hate being taken in by conspiracies and bullshit, whatever side spreads it.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:45 pmDo I need to really carry on with this?
Comment by Bruce Gorton — June 18, 2006 @ 3:18 pm
Yes you do, as you haven’t proved your case. You cite force feeding as torture? Come on, trying to preserve the life of someone is torture? Can’t you make a more valid argument than that?
Oh, first we are criminals because we are preventing someone from killing themselves, now we are criminals for allowing them, despite our best efforts, to kill themselves. Wow, you are arguing with yourself.
A detainee has no right to a lawyer, period. The fact that he had representation means we were offording him a right we didn’t have to.
In regards to water boarding, not only is it rarely used, if at all, but it is not defined by the lawyers as torture, and hence, as illegal. Depending on where your feelings lay, cops running a Mutt and Jeff approach could be torture. And in regards to the New Yorker article, the guy was tortured in Syria after being deported. In regards to the claim that KSM was water boarded, it’s one claim.
I didn’t deny torture happened. But it is certainly not widespread nor is it part of our policy. And if the CIA is doing it, it’s wrong, but not illegal. And I note in one article that there was a fight between the FBI and the CIA over the practice. The very fact that there is a legal debate over the practice shows that we are nation of laws and ethics. Go tell some guy sitting in a Chinese prison that he has a choice; being made to strip naked and get his picture taken or have electrodes attached to his privates. Wonder which he will choose?
June 18th, 2006 at 3:45 pm“if you support this illegal war so damned much…” Astute “legal” observation by law school honors graduate, Braid Fair
******And you reached your brilliant legal conclusion by:
June 18th, 2006 at 3:46 pma.) careful and thoughtful analysis
b.) fitting your conclusion to any supporting legal opinions
c.) fitting your legal analysis to your opinion
d.) reviewing both sides of the legal arguments and conclusively arriving at your opinion.
sorry, pjh,
I just did a quick scan…it seems more you support this Administration…so it’s a matter of guilt by association….
I have a BS in Intl Relations and I am currently working on my MA in the same field. – pjh
And I have a Juris Doctor, and spent two summers in Europe studing International Law and Human Rights. I would think with a degree in International Relations you would be apalled at what this Administration is doing. Or is your focus in International Relations more in line with that expressed by the Project for the New American Century?
Gordon, Keep up the good work!
I gotta get back to my studies for the Bar.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — June 18, 2006 @ 3:25 pm
All that education and the best you can come u with is ‘guilt by association’. And shouldn’t you have scanned the comments BEFORE making an attack on my viewpoint? Sounds like you wasted a lot of money on that education.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:49 pmBriseadh na Faire
Nah, its just that one bugs me. I really hate being taken in by conspiracies and bullshit, whatever side spreads it.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — June 18, 2006 @ 3:45 pm
That was refreshing. I guess there is hope.
June 18th, 2006 at 3:51 pmThe funny part is ‘guilt by association’ being prosecutorial grounds by a lawyer. And the icing on the cake is that IT’S A HUMAN RIGHTS LAWYER!!! So much for your credibility, and your competence.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:10 pmHey, it’s a cash machine for the Bushies!
Human lives go in, money comes out!
You know its gotta be makin’ somebody feel awfully important.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:14 pmSnow also made an appearance on CNN and refuted the Embassy memo from Iraq as being old news. I know that women are so suppose to be barefoot and pregnant and stay at home but where’s Laura Bush in all of this. For the confused trolls read FROM THE EMBASSY, A GRIM REPORT IN TODAYS WASHINGTON POST
June 18th, 2006 at 4:15 pmSnow is correct. Silly me, I’ve been tuned to CNN or MSNBC all weekend hoping to hear our soldiers have been rescued. Americans have far better things to spend their time on than worrying about the condition of our troops while at war. Sheesh .. I’m glad he set me straight — now I’ll have more time to think about what color/style of new shower curtain to buy!
June 18th, 2006 at 4:42 pmOh, and for forced feeding:
And ladies and gentlemen, one I think we have all missed:
Article’s 70 onwards. Verrry interesting stuff. It seems that communications can be sent out of POW camps, so why do we keep on hearing about people who have just vanished?
And hey, you know what, on further reading? Article 99
Thus for the right to a lawyer, all they have to do is confess to a petty crime.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:47 pmIf the Iraqis are able to ‘mobilize’ 50,000 men for ANY reason, clearly, they are “standing up”! Great! Wonderful! Hooray for them! Now let’s bring 50,000 American soldiers home, before GWB changes the plans, again. Or was it really our troops, with a few Iraqis along for the experience.
Totally OT, but the thought popped up just now. Does anyone know what the ‘enemy’ uniform looks like for those fighting the “WOT”? And, what is the uniform worn by the ‘insurgents’ in Iraq? And what was/is the uniform of record for Al Queda? I mean, they DO have uniforms, right? Otherwise, how would we know who the “enemy” really is? You really should have SOME means of identifying them, don’t you think?
June 18th, 2006 at 4:55 pmNeoCon caring for our soldiers consists of using them as cheap labor in order to enrich right wing corporations or to carry out biblical Armageddonist prophesies.
When it comes to valuing their lives, giving them health benefits, using them only for national security purposes, or giving them the proper body armor, Neocons have only two words for American troops —– FKKK YOU.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:55 pmCollective disciplinary measures affecting food are prohibited.
Come on dude, quit grasping at straws. There is nothing ‘collective’ about forcing a prisoner who is hunger striking to eat.
Article’s 70 onwards. Verrry interesting stuff. It seems that communications can be sent out of POW camps, so why do we keep on hearing about people who have just vanished?
They do not fall into the category of ‘Prisoners of War’, and hence, do not have those rights. Technically they are “enemy combatents”, and thus we can hold them WITHOUT charges for the duration of the war. KSM, mastermind behind the 9/11 attacks, hiding in Pakistan, is an ‘unlawful enemy combatent’. However, as far as I am aware, ALL detainees at Gitmo send out Red Cross letters. I know ALL of the people at Bagram do have that right.
No prisoner of war may be convicted without having had an opportunity to present his defence and the assistance of a qualified advocate or counsel.
They were found by a military tribunel to be be quilty. Thus, they had their legal representation. And many do not fall into the category of POWs, they are ‘enemy combatents’, and thus do not have the rights of a POW.
June 18th, 2006 at 4:58 pmSilly me – re-reading the transcript and noting Snows’ “prayer” “God bless them, we hope they’re okay…” I realize why the majority of the “godless” Left would stop reading in their tracks. I apologize….
June 18th, 2006 at 5:01 pmComment by pjh
How rarely are you willing to be water boarded?
How often do you allow yourself to be force fed?
What proof do we have that you have not done something to deserve this treatment?
June 18th, 2006 at 5:01 pmSo what life experience does grant me the right to make comments on the issue? I’ve served overseas in many conflicts, I am highly educated, I still work for the government, I speak several languages and I have spent years living overseas. So at what point do my comments become valid? I have a feeling it is only when you coincide with your own views.
This msg board is such a string of outright lies, exagerations, and regurgitation of myths and fallacies. It’s a big circle-jerk of a bunch of people who know little of what they are talking about. There is no discourse here as a discourse is an exchange of ideas and involves a healthy debate. Instead there is a simple blank acceptance of anything anti-Bush or anti-administration that gets posted. I come in here and point out outright lies that are being posted, but I am immediately accused of being stupid and uninformed. When I prove that I am an educated and informed person who has first hand knowledge of the topics being discussed, probably demanstrating that I am probably one of the most knowledgeble people in the discussion, I am branded naive.
And keep in mind that I have not defended Bush or his policies. I have simply thrown accuracy and fact into the argument, but it seems noone wants that.
Comment by pjh
Back up your assertions with FACTS… links will do.
Trolls get on here and say the founding fathers were not liberal… yet we can link over and over from their personal writings showing that the founding fathers were NOTHING like todays republicans. Trolls say that the left supports communism/nazism/whateverism when the trolls own outlook on life shows that THEY and their leaders ACTIVELY cause facism and has supported facism (including nazis) in the past… up is down black is white…
June 18th, 2006 at 5:05 pmIf the Iraqis are able to ‘mobilize’ 50,000 men for ANY reason, clearly, they are “standing upâ€! Great! Wonderful! Hooray for them! Now let’s bring 50,000 American soldiers home, before GWB changes the plans, again. Or was it really our troops, with a few Iraqis along for the experience.
Totally OT, but the thought popped up just now. Does anyone know what the ‘enemy’ uniform looks like for those fighting the “WOT� And, what is the uniform worn by the ‘insurgents’ in Iraq? And what was/is the uniform of record for Al Queda? I mean, they DO have uniforms, right? Otherwise, how would we know who the “enemy†really is? You really should have SOME means of identifying them, don’t you think?
If they don’t wear a uniform, if they kill civilians, if they sabatage the infrastructure, etc, etc, etc, they are unlawful enemy combatents. In regards to having a way to identify them, it is either through observing them with weapons in their hands, wounding them and then capturing them, or through confessions. Also, many get detained as a result of intelligence. Take Zarqawi. If he was unarmed at the time does that mean we don’t have the evidence necessary to detain him? Of course not. Unfortunately they do not wear uniforms, they hide behind women and children, they use mosques to conduct attacks, etc. It would be nice if they all wore uniforms, but then that would make them vulnerable. So they fight dressed like the locals, and they immediately become unlawful enemy combatents.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:05 pmWe must not allow ourselves to become anesthetized to the Bush administration’s callous attitude about our troops. First they refuse to allow picutres of flag-draped coffins, then Bush boycots military funerals and now we are told not to focus on the two kidnapped servicemen. Believe me, this will not exhaust the horror we are asked to ignore. Perhaps they think that the more we suffer the less we will care. I keep hoping adn praying for an end to this nigthmare.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:06 pmwhere’s Laura Bush in all of this.
Comment by JL — June 18, 2006 @ 4:15 pm
i keep wondering that myself… my impression of her whenever i’ve seen anything of her is that she does seem shy and meek, but this is getting ridiculous… even tammy wynette would have had just about enough by now… talk about “godless”…
June 18th, 2006 at 5:06 pmIs the media “too focused” on the kidnappings of 2 U.S. soldiers? I don’t know, but I know that I am focused on it. When I heard about this, I literally felt sick to my stomach. It is hard for me to even think about what these 2 brave people may be going through and I can’t even imagine what it must be like for the family members of these soldiers. My thoughts and prayers are with them. When I read in the news what Iraqis are perpetrating on each other, beating with cables, drilling with power tools, even the children () I hate to contemplate the fate of these 2 poor soldiers. I don’t care what your politics are, these 2 people do not deserve this, to be at the hands of people who will want to make them pay for all of the sins, perceived or not, of the United States of America. How can you not fear for them, how can you not focus on this? To argue the politics of this, well, I can’t even go there. I just hope my fears for them are totally unfounded and that they pull through this safely.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:07 pmpjh
That’s strange, then why couldn’t their lawyers see them? If they had actually stood trial, surely, they got to see their lawyers? And on what grounds have they been found guilty? Where is the oversight to this military tribunal?
Indeed, doesn’t your argument actually contradict the US Constitution?
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.billofrights.html#amendmentv
That goes for military trials as well. If these are unlawful combatants they are therefore criminal, and therefore before before being judged criminal, have the right granted above. This one does not differentiate between Americans and foreigners.
Oh, and on what grounds are these unlawful combatants? So far as I can see that phrase does not occur in the Geneva conventions, what is the definition of a unlawful combatant?
June 18th, 2006 at 5:12 pmHow rarely are you willing to be water boarded?
I’m not and I am sure KSM is not ‘willing’ either. He made a simple choice to be a terrorist, so he lost his ability to decline, if, in fact, it even happened.
How often do you allow yourself to be force fed?
I eat three emals a day so I would not allow myself to be force fed. But if I ever became deranged enough to go on a hunger strike I would fully expect to be force fed.
What proof do we have that you have not done something to deserve this treatment?
I don’t have to prove my innocence, you have to prove my guilt.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:13 pmComment by Bruce Gorton — June 18, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
http://www.cfr.org/publication.html?id=5312
and
Additional Protocol I does not grant prisoner of war status to persons who unlawfully participate in hostilities. It reserves this status to members of the armed forces of a party to an international armed conflict in the sense of the Protocol. Such armed forces must be organized, be under a command responsible to that party and be subject to an internal disciplinary system that enforces compliance with humanitarian law. Moreover, members of armed forces must distinguish themselves from the civilian population in order to be entitled to prisoner of war status upon capture. While traditionally the wearing of a uniform or of a distinctive sign and the carrying of arms openly was required, States parties to the Protocol agreed that in very exceptional circumstances, such as wars of national liberation, this requirement could be less stringent. The carrying of arms openly would be sufficient as a means of distinction.
from;
http://www.icrc.org/web/eng/siteeng0.nsf/html/terrorism-ihl-210705
And the constitution doesn’t apply to them as they are not US citizens and they are not on US soil.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:18 pmAnd now for your “legal analysis” pjh:
Says who? give cites to relevant portions of the UN Charter and the International Covenant on Human Rights.
You have facts to back this assertion up? How many International Rights observers have been allowed into the detention centers to observe interrogations? Have all interrogations been observed by independent neutral observers, including the “secret renditions” we have heard about?
So, what is the definition of torture, under International Law. And if you hire a lawyer to give a different definition, does that make it ok?
How do you know this? Cite the facts, the investigations, the transparancey of our intelligence gathering operations.
So, if something is illegal, but the CIA is doing it, that only makes it wrong?
But you said earlier that a lawyer said it wasn’t torture. Hence no debate. The law is what one lawyer says it is. Spend 3 years in one of our detention facilities as an enemy combatant. Be treated the same way we are treating citizens of foreign countries. Then come back and tell us how we are nation of laws and ethics.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:22 pmMighty Aphrodite –
I did not offer the above quoted comment as a “legal” observation, hence your critique is misplaced. However, you do seem to be learning the elements of a legal argument. Your posts might be taken far more seriously if you followed those elements yourself.
And name calling only belittles you further in the eyes of those who read your writings.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:27 pmI like Tony better than Scotty. Scotty was annoying because he bullshitted himself around every question. At least Tony lets us know exactly what the administration is thinking.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:28 pmSNOW: And now back to our search for Natalie Holloway, day 475, With Geraldo Rivera and Bill O’Reilly.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:36 pm#66 In regards to Rumsfeld, he was in college. Lots of people took the same route.
Comment by pjh — June 18, 2006 @ 2:28 pm
Clinton was in college with a student deferrment, too. When he graduated and became elegible for the draft, he drew a high lottery number and wasn’t called. How does that make him a coward or a draft dodger? Because the republicans say so? Because he said he didn’t want to go to Viet Nam? Almost nobody wanted to go to VietNam. Many people with student deferrments got drafted after they graduated. Clinton got lucky in the lottery, but he was ready to be drafted when they instituted the lottery. He wasn’t scrambling for more deferrments, unlike 5 deferrment Dick Cheney, or trying to pull strings to get into the NG.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:38 pmSNOW: Sorry, I forgot I wasn’t on Fox anymore.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:39 pmFolks, please remember we only want to look at POSITIVE happenings in Iraq. In fact, it’s just a number of servicemen kidnapped, only 2. (They are not Tony’s family so it’s only a number) When you live in a bubble like W does, everything is beautiful and they do not want to ruin their beautiful minds with bad news. No pictures of caskets, no visiting the wounded, don’t talk to families of dead soldiers and bingo, no horrible thougths of war, just count your money and everything is beautiful.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:39 pmThe more they do to keep the war news from being negative, the more negative it sounds. This is a war that people in the US are supporting with bumper stickers and plastic American flags made in China, that’s all, no sacrifices need be made.
In fact, get ready, the Iranian people will welcome us with flowers and pistachio candies just like the Iraqie people did and still do.
These people are an insult to your intelligence. Tony “the Fox” Snow looked like a scared school boy in the photo op last week when they were wisked into Baghdad for a 5 hour tour of duty. Come on Tony, it’s just a number, you need to go over and do more. How about making Tony press secretary to the PM of Iraq? Oh, that won’t happen since W is counting on him and Bolten to really turn this admiinstration into a constant photo op. No war plans, just pictures.
Says who? give cites to relevant portions of the UN Charter and the International Covenant on Human Rights.
I did cite them, look above. Just because I didn’t cite the UN Charter of the ICHR, doesn’t mean the law doesn’t exist. I cited the Hague Convention and Protocol One to the Geneva Convention plus the ICRC.
You have facts to back this assertion up? How many International Rights observers have been allowed into the detention centers to observe interrogations? Have all interrogations been observed by independent neutral observers, including the “secret renditions†we have heard about?
Actually members of the ICRC are permitted into Bagram and Gitmo. And there is no requirement that interrogations be conducted with neutral observers. Obviously, based on the points you raise, you have no clue what you are talking about.
So, what is the definition of torture, under International Law. And if you hire a lawyer to give a different definition, does that make it ok?
This is a legal issue, and thus far it has been deemed to not be torture. If it is redefined it means nothing as at the time it was legal. Technically a Mutt and Jeff approach in an interrogation could be considered violating the Geneva Convention in terms of ‘undue psychological pressure’. But the very fact that every law enforcement and military force in the entire world utilizes this tactic means that it is not, in fact, a law. To be a law, per international law, the law has to be enforced. If it is not enforced, than, per international law, it is not a law. I am not a lawyer nor do I play one on TV. But I have had a lot of instruction on the ‘Law of Land Warfare.’
And if the CIA is doing it, it’s wrong, but not illegal.
So, if something is illegal, but the CIA is doing it, that only makes it wrong?
I didn’t say that. Please re-read my statement. I provided highlighted portions to help you out.
But you said earlier that a lawyer said it wasn’t torture. Hence no debate. The law is what one lawyer says it is. Spend 3 years in one of our detention facilities as an enemy combatant. Be treated the same way we are treating citizens of foreign countries. Then come back and tell us how we are nation of laws and ethics.
The law is what a huge possees of lawyers, backed up by multiple layers of courts say it is. Your the lawyer, you know what the law is. Don’t blame me for it.
And the very fact that their is a legal debate over the issue proves that we are a country of laws and ethics.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:43 pmAnd name calling only belittles you further in the eyes of those who read your writings.
Of but a lawyer using ‘guilt by association’ doesn’t belittle themself? And you are a Human Rights Lawyer? Keep digging.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:45 pm“And just for the record Bush criticised the war record of noone. Go find me a reference. You can’t.”
Those tasteful purple heart bandaids at the GOP conevention were a complete surprise to Bush? The Swift Boat people–he never heard of them.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:47 pmI don’t have to prove my innocence, you have to prove my guilt.
Comment by pjh — June 18, 2006 @ 5:13 pm
Damn hippy liberal. You are hereby disbarred from the Republican Party for making the mistaken assumption that the Fifth Amendment to the United States Constitution places any limitations on the inherent rights of the President of the United States under Article II of the Constitution. According to President and Lord George W. Bush, the President of the United States is allowed to do anything he wants as long as he declares that it is either part of the Global War on Terror or necessary for the security of people living in the United States. As long as the President of the United States declares that you are an enemy of the state, he has unlimited right to imprison you, hold you for as long as he wants, not allow contact with any legal representative or any other person, and to have stories about you printed in the press about how bad a terrorist you are. By denouncing your President’s position, you have revoked all right to being called an “American”. You are now a commie liberal bastard.
Just a suggestion for next time. Remember what the President of the United States says: Article II of the United States Constitution gives the President unlimited power to do anything he wants without having to tell anyone as long as, when someone finds out later, he says that he did it to keep the American people secure. Any limits to the president’s power by any Article or Amendment to the United States Constitution are null and void. Every good Republican should know this by now.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:48 pmBraid Fair – I guess someone hijacked your keyboard when you pronounced the war “illegal”. Remember, graduate with honors, the jury is still out on your “argument”.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:55 pmBack up your assertions with FACTS… links will do.
Trolls get on here and say the founding fathers were not liberal… yet we can link over and over from their personal writings showing that the founding fathers were NOTHING like todays republicans. Trolls say that the left supports communism/nazism/whateverism when the trolls own outlook on life shows that THEY and their leaders ACTIVELY cause facism and has supported facism (including nazis) in the past… up is down black is white…
Comment by Gerald Gibson — June 18, 2006 @ 5:05 pm
See #73
June 18th, 2006 at 5:58 pmIllegal. Yes. Get out of denial, Aphrodite. It’s not attractive!
________
Now, regarding Snojob, I agree. We ought to find those two kidnapped American Marines and tell them about all the guys we’ve killed since Zarqawi-Tool has been defuncted. I’m sure it will make them feel better about their sitch. Peace out, Freedom ontha March Hare.
June 18th, 2006 at 5:59 pmThose tasteful purple heart bandaids at the GOP conevention were a complete surprise to Bush? The Swift Boat people–he never heard of them.
Comment by chefrad — June 18, 2006 @ 5:47 pm
Ah, must be, right? That would be so convenient. Again, you cite nebulous conspiracy theories, yet no proof.
June 18th, 2006 at 6:00 pmHey, regarding the 2500 as just a number, was your cancer just an illness?
June 18th, 2006 at 6:03 pmGerald – And our fore-fathers were NOTHING like todays’ liberals. They believed in charity and not entitlement “programs”, they did not believe in the punitive income tax, they referenced God often and gratefully – miraculously, NO atheists dropped dead from being fatally offended.
June 18th, 2006 at 6:11 pmWhy does Mighty Haggis hate America?
June 18th, 2006 at 7:04 pmre. #23 foreign countries didn’t laugh at the antics of our President, they laughed at the antics of the Americans concerning the antics of our President.
June 18th, 2006 at 7:05 pmBush Administration to America: “Forget about our lost soldiers of America. Go shopping instead.”
June 18th, 2006 at 7:53 pmMighty Aphrodite & pjh, guilt by association, you know, co-conspirators. Gee, Mighty, you’re a lawyer, do I have to define/explain everything for you?
And why are you two offended so? I merely treated you the way you treat others? Is that not acceptable to you?
Others have handled your innane arguments adequately. Just remember, your arguments in support of this Administration’s actions could just as easily be given to justify killing thousands of Americans. Will you agree to the validity of those arguments? Will you agree that the deaths of thousands of Americans is justified in the same way this Administration justifies the deaths of thousands of Iraqis and Afghanistanis?
If not, then you are damned by your own words.
June 18th, 2006 at 8:32 pmBriseadh na Faire;
No you lost the argument. Your arguments clearly showed you have little grasp of the issue at home. Talking about lack of access to officials of orgs like the ICRC or ‘impartial’ observers of interrogations show you don’t know the laws around the issue.
In regards to slandering us, you didn’t do that, you simply couldn’t put up a valid argument, digging yourself deeper and deeper as you waded into an issue that you have little grasp of. I simply posted truth here, backed up by facts. When I introduced my own ideas I backed them up with facts, and links to those facts, and in not a single instance were my sources challenged. In regards to my originally pointing out the lack of validity of many of the statements that have been made, noone, with maybe one exception, defended themselves with facts (links). And the one person that did promptly crippled their case with references to forged documents that caused the forced resignation of a 40-year icon of the US media.
I do not defend the war, I defend the troops that are fighting in it, and I defend the truth. I refute someone’s point and they ask for links. It’s not my argument, it is theirs. They made the statement, they need to defend it. And in almost every case they failed to do that. Clinton is a draft dodger. He admitted it in a letter he wrote to a member of the draft board. The fact that he denied it during his presidency, and then the original letter was brought forward, simply makes him a draft dodger and a liar.
The arguments made by some of the people on this board are laughable. Instead of defending their argument they immediately resort to personal attacks. I am stupid or I am naive or I have been drinking the kool aid or I am an evil person that works for the government. You attempted to make an educated argument. You failed. You were cursed by a lack of knowledge on the given issue, and a reliance on concepts that you state are set-in-stone, yet are still very nebullous and the subject of current debate. I mean look at your last post and my reply. I used LAW, both local and international to demolish your arguments, and you respond by stating that you won the argument, and my comments are inane. You make legal claims of rights, I tell you that you are mistaken, and cite references, and you claim victory. You make statements of reality, I refute your claims completely, cite references AND first hand accounts, and you claim victory.
That ain’t gonna work in the courtroom and it ain’t going to work here.
June 18th, 2006 at 9:13 pmThe trolls are busy today. Can’t we just ignore them until they give up and go away?
June 18th, 2006 at 9:20 pmBTW, Isn’t anyone afraid of what fate may befall the soldiers who were kidnapped the other day? If they or their battered bodies show up one day, what grounds will we have in charging anyone with barbarianism? We don’t follow rules of law, our government sanctions disobeyance of laws and treaties – if one of them was my son, I think I would risk my own life in an attempt to trade them for Bush.
P.S. I’ve got no problem whatsoever with Afghanistan. That invasion was completely legitimate, morally, ethicly, legally, whatever -ly you want to come up with. We saved those people from a ruthless, backward, totally corrupt government who attacked us, or allowed someone who they were harboring to attack us. And the Afghans, for the most part, love us. I ahd daily exposure to the Afghans when I was there. I speak the language. I lived among them.
It takes a little time to recover from 25+ years of constant fighting. It takes a while for a government that hasn’t had an education system in 25+ years to recover. It takes a while to recover when 50% of your population has been forbidden to go to a school for 5 years. It takes a while to recover when 40% of your population is refugees.
Let the Taliban come out. This is their last gasp.
But my views on Iraq are quit different. I was against it then, I am against it now.
June 18th, 2006 at 9:28 pmThe trolls are busy today. Can’t we just ignore them until they give up and go away?
I assume you are referring to me? Yeah, trolls usually cite copious references to their viewpoints, right? Yeah, trolls usually do a lot of research, right?
You best ignore me because you can’t defend the statements you just made.
June 18th, 2006 at 9:32 pmgod. I hate these people. I hope those kids parents didn’t hear this.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:10 pmSnow speaks for management. Soldiers are just labor to folks like him. You hire them for as little as possible, and spend as little as possible on them. When their useful service is ended, you try and screw them out of what ever benefits were promised them to get them to sign-up in the first place. If they’re dead or maimed, you screw their families too. Its just a cost-benefit thing, you know bottom line, profit and loss. Just business. Nothing personal.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:15 pmFirst its two languages and then this and that. Everytime you open your mouth, pjh, your resume grows. I bow before your consumate wisdom, your immense experience in all the areas that make you a superior man. Must be nice to hold Bush’s purse. Bush may never have ranted anyone’s service down, he had others do it for him. Even a nitwit like him could see how bad it would make him look doing otherwise. And then there’s the notion that if he did, he would have to answer questions about his own desertion.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:21 pmIf the press had treated the Second World War and Roosevelt the way the current press threats this president; and the current crop of “progressives” had had their way then, we would all be speaking German (or Japanese) and there would be no Jews.
June 18th, 2006 at 10:50 pmI’m still wonder if even one high ranknig Bush official served in any war time combat. Anyone?
Also, I so wish they’d never use the term ‘bad guy’ again. What do they think this is, GI Joe?
June 18th, 2006 at 10:59 pmComment by catherine;
god. I hate these people. I hope those kids parents didn’t hear this.
Please expand on your comment.
First its two languages and then this and that. Everytime you open your mouth, pjh, your resume grows. I bow before your consumate wisdom, your immense experience in all the areas that make you a superior man. Must be nice to hold Bush’s purse. Bush may never have ranted anyone’s service down, he had others do it for him. Even a nitwit like him could see how bad it would make him look doing otherwise. And then there’s the notion that if he did, he would have to answer questions about his own desertion.
I am what I am, what can I say? And I am not sure how my resume has expanded everytime I open my mouth. But that may make sense to you.
In terms of Bush and the military record, I am sure the Dems spent millions trying to find a connection between Bush and the Swift boat guys. It couldn’t just be that they were patriotic people who didn’t like Kerry, that could never be the case, could it? And if Bush served honorably in the National Guard and has an honerable discharge, but that is desertion, what does Gore and Clinton have? While yes, I admit he probably had some strings pulled for him to get into the NG (WHile there is no evidence to support this), he still has his honerable discharge. So if that is desertion, what is out right draft dodging? Is what Gore did any different? I guess he is a deserter also, huh?
Pot meet kettle.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:00 pmSee, I know alot of those parents of military kids who go against Cindy Sheehan don’t read the paper, and see this kind of crap. I just saw a story the other day that injured soldiers had their co-payment increased? Why are they having to pay for anything, at any time.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:15 pmThey are not cared about, they are just assisting in the raping of the natural resources of Iraq. It’s just a damned shame and very hard to bare. They must go in ‘06. Some body of government has to challenge this administration.
See, I know alot of those parents of military kids who go against Cindy Sheehan don’t read the paper, and see this kind of crap. I just saw a story the other day that injured soldiers had their co-payment increased? Why are they having to pay for anything, at any time.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:16 pmThey are not cared about, they are just assisting in the raping of the natural resources of Iraq. It’s just a damned shame and very hard to bare. They must go in ‘06. Some body of government has to challenge this administration.
See, I know alot of those parents of military kids who go against Cindy Sheehan don’t read the paper, and see this kind of crap. I just saw a story the other day that injured soldiers had their co-payment increased? Why are they having to pay for anything, at any time.
They are not cared about, they are just assisting in the raping of the natural resources of Iraq. It’s just a damned shame and very hard to bare. They must go in ‘06. Some body of government has to challenge this administration.
That is complete and utter BS. Active duty military have no copayment, EVER!!! If you are a veteran, nothing changed. They did try and raise the prescription drug co-pay from $7 to $15, and tried to add a $250 a year admin fee. But the truth is Bush has increased the VA’s medical budget by 40% since he has been in office;
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2005-06-30-csm-veterans_x.htm
June 18th, 2006 at 11:26 pmphj – I can sense the anger and hatred in your posts.
I have done for you what I rarely do for posters here. I have asked the Universe for its message for you. If you have read earlier posts of mine, you will know that I am a Shaman as well.
The first message is Feoth, Reversed: “Feoh in reverse canindicate a failure or loss if the course currently embarked upon continues. There may be difficulty and furstrationwith money matters, loss of wealth, or delay of return on an investment. Abondon current plans or at least be prepared for trouble. If your problem is emotional instead offinancial, there may be a delay or loss in a relationship your are pusruing, or maybe it is time to give up a failed relationship and begin anew.”
The other messages, Rad and Daeg, depend on what you do from here.
You obviously believe you are speaking from a position of superior information, intelligence and wisdom:
Since you are more versed in the laws around this issue than I, would you care to enlighten the rest of us?
I, for one, am most interested in the international laws regarding the use of torture, secret renditions, the status and rights of civilians captured in war, and the rights of international observers relating to both acknowledged prisoners, and unacknowleged prisoners. I thought my courses in international advocacy and international human rights covered those topics quite extensively. Apparently I am mistaken.
Your post 109 was posted while I was writing 110. In your post, you lay the foundation why the foreign citizens in Guantanamo should not be called prisioners of war. And, since they are not on U.S. soil, the argument has been made, and refuted by the Supreme Court, by the way, that the Constitution does not give them any protections. However, assuming for the sake of argument that they have no rights under the constitution, nor do they have any rights as a prisoner of war, what then is their status under international law?
Is is permissible for any nation to hold citizens of another nation indefinitely under similar circumstances? If so, under which tenent of international law? I’m asking you, because you claim to have the superior knowledge in this area.
And I ask you, who has deemed our treatment of prisoners in Guantanamo, Abu Gahrib and other centers “not to be torture?” What is the international law definition of torture?
Kindly enlighten us as to how international law is enforced.
Where did I state I won the argument? Show me where I said I won the argument?
I did say:
In that last line, I was speaking as a Shaman.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:43 pmVA Medical Care FY 2007 Funding
June 18th, 2006 at 11:53 pm
It’s easy to say there’s too much focus on two kidnapped American soldiers when no neoconservative has a relative or close acquaintance in the line of fire.
Their only “dog in that fight” is the government-contract gravy train that is enriching their elite clique. I can totally understand why their upset that any inconvenient facts may upset the cash flow while the gettin’s good.
These people are un-American, bordering on treasonous.
Sickening. Heartless. Shameful. I pity you trolls who have fallen for the bullshit. As Hermann Goering said at the Nuremberg trials, “Of course the people don’t want war. But after all, it’s the leaders of the country who determine the policy, and it’s always a simple matter to drag the people along whether it’s a democracy, a fascist dictatorship, or a parliament, or a communist dictatorship. Voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked, and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism, and exposing the country to greater danger.”
As for you trolls who come here and attack us without having the intellectual rigor to actually think about our arguments, you ARE the enemy within. I also suspect there’s a special place in Hell waiting for you. You deserve it.
June 18th, 2006 at 11:58 pmProposed New and Expanded User Fees for Higher-income Non-disabled Veterans
The Administration is reproposing two user-fee proposals for lower-priority veterans in the system (Priority Level 7/8 veterans) who do not have service disabilities or lower incomes. The proposals include a $250 annual enrollment fee and an increase in the drug copay from $8 to $15 for a 30-day supply of prescription drugs. The accompanying chart shows that these fees align veterans’ payments for care more closely with other public and private health care plans.
Similar proposals are included in the DOD budget for career military retirees under the age of 65. In addition to these proposals, the Budget includes a legislative provision to correct an inequity in the administration of existing copays. Today, if a veteran has another source of health insurance the copay requirement is eliminated if the insurance payment is equal to or greater than the copay. The proposal would charge copays to all eligible veterans equally. These proposals do not pertain to veterans who are considered among VA’s core mission and our highest priority—those with service disabilities, lower incomes, or special needs. The President is committed to ensuring that their care is not jeopardized in any way. These proposals will save taxpayers $795 million in 2007.
http://www.whitehouse.gov/omb/budget/fy2007/veterans.html
Then again, if they’re never defined as disabled….
May 11th, 2006 1:46 pm
GAO: Few Troops Are Treated for Disorder
Post-Traumatic Stress Risk Gauged
By Shankar Vedantam / Washington Post
Nearly four in five service members returning from the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan who were found to be at risk for post-traumatic stress disorder (PTSD) were never referred by government clinicians for further help, according to a Government Accountability Office report due for release today.
http://www.michaelmoore.com/words/latestnews/index.php?id=6807
June 19th, 2006 at 12:13 am#143 – There’s more:
Iraq vets face mental health issues
By Alison Young
Knight Ridder Newspapers
Posted on Tue, Sep. 28, 2004
“Our unfunded liability for the disability compensation program is $600 billion over the next 30 years,” Principi said. The program, an entitlement that Congress must fund each year, provides monthly payments to compensate veterans injured in the service of their country. The payments generally last for the life of the veteran and sometimes for their spouses and children.
That was nearly 2 years ago: $600 billion in unfunded liability for the disability compensation program projected for the care of injured veterans. How many more have been injured?
In perspective:
On September 15th 2002, White House economic advisor Lawrence Lindsay estimated the high limit on the cost to be 1-2% of GNP, or about $100-$200 billion.
Mitch Daniels, Director of the Office of Management and Budget subsequently discounted this estimate as “very, very high†and stated that the costs would be between $50-$60 billion [Source: WSJ, “Bush Economic Aide Says Cost Of Iraq War May Top $100 Billion,†Davis 09/16/02; NYT, “Estimated Cost of Iraq War Reduced, Bumiller, 12/31/02; Reuters News, “Daniels sees U.S. Iraq war cost below $200 billion,†09/18/02]
June 19th, 2006 at 12:23 am“Look over there! Isn’t that another bikini murder!?!”
June 19th, 2006 at 12:25 amKeep talking Tony, just keep talking. We’re hearing every word you say.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:30 amThese troop deaths are a number. Besides, have you forgotten that 3,000 Americans died on 9/11?
-GSD
I am not sure if GSD is for real or being sarcastic. Not all of the 3000 people killed on 9/11 were American. I don’t know the precise numbers by nationality, but I believe at least 100 Brits alone were killed on 9/11. If you add in all the other Europeans, Japanese, Chinese, South Americans, etc. into that figure and then subtract it from 3000, you will find that more Americans have been killed in Iraq by now than died on 9/11. And, of course, the figure for Iraq is still growing.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:54 amBush baby is too cowardly to ever lead an army in war! He, Cheney, and Rummy are 3 felons who love to make war, but not fight in it! Even their children are protected from fighting!
Comment by Jay Randal —
And it’s not just their own children who are protected from fighting; none of Bush’s nephews or nieces are in military uniform, either. And I bet the same holds true for all of Dickhead’s and Rummy-Dumbie’s nieces and nephews, too.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:58 amIn terms of Bush and the military record, I am sure the Dems spent millions trying to find a connection between Bush and the Swift boat guys.
comment by pjh
To pjh,
Since you claim the Democrats couldn’t find any evidence linking the Swift boat guys and the Bush campaign, I present you the following from wikipedia, and incidentally, I remember reading newspaper accounts when Benjamin Ginsberg, an attorney linked to both the Bush campaign and the Swiftboaters, had to resign from the former:
“Kenneth Cordier, former vice-chair of Veterans for Bush/Cheney (in 2000) and volunteer member of the Bush campaign veterans steering committee, appeared in the second SBVT (Swiftboat Veterans for Truth) advertisement. The Bush campaign asked him to resign and stated that it had been unaware of his SBVT involvement. [68]
On August 25, 2004, Benjamin Ginsberg, the top election lawyer to the Bush campaign on campaign finance law, also resigned after it was learned that the SBVT was one of his clients. Ginsberg stated that he was withdrawing to avoid being a distraction to the campaign. He declared that he had acted “in a manner that is fully appropriate and legal,”[69], arguing that it was not uncommon or illegal for lawyers to represent campaigns or political parties while also representing 527 groups. He also maintained that he did not disclose to the Bush campaign that he was simultaneously representing the SBVT group. After leaving the Bush campaign, Ginsberg retained his status as counsel to the SBVT.”
Also, seven out of the top 10 donors to the Swiftboaters were also major donors to the Texas GOP and Bush–just a coincidence, I suppose.
June 19th, 2006 at 1:24 amAl Gore, by the way, was in Vietnam–as an Army journalist. That still put him in more harm’s way than Dumbya’s stint protecting Houston from the Viet Cong.
Finally, for someone who claims to have been discharged honorably from the military and now working on an advanced degree, why is it that you consistently misspell the word as “honerable”–not to mention, several other spelling errors?
wait. wait. we haven’t seen the videos yet.
June 19th, 2006 at 1:59 ampgh is a classic example of why our nation is in deep trouble. Doesn’t matter what argument you make to the idiot…
He’s got an answer.
Trouble is the Iraqis don’t care about his arguments.
They want us gone and for good reason.
I wonder how pgh would react, with all his ‘training’ and all, if his mother or daughter of son was machine gunned to death in the street in front of his house by teenagers from half-way around the world who could not speak his language.
I wonder how pgh would react if his grandfather was blown to pieces by an IED set to bow up the next person who came by.
We, pgh and everybody else on this thread are just as guilty as George w. Bush and all the Democrats and Republicans who voted for this quagmire.
pgh just doesn’t want to admit it.
Which makes him a coward.
Military ‘training’ and all.
And until we drag the war criminals ‘leading’ us from power we are just as guilty as the German populace was under Hitler.
June 19th, 2006 at 2:01 amZookeeper, sorry so slow getting back at ya. High cold winds off and on here last two day’s, just a little sunshine. Huge gusts took out the neighbors vinal sun room. Several of us managed to rescue it before it was ripped and bent to pieces. Had to dismantel it totaly. The weather system has probably gone to your area by now.
I’ve decided after a couple of day’s back at TP I’m bailing..Will miss your posts and may viset from time to time but it’s lost my intrest with all the derailing, huge name calling, lengthy, repetitive blather by the new trolls are a total wast of my time and at my age there isn’t enough of it left to waste. As I said I will miss some of the good posters like you, Unbelievable, Marie and others but I’m going to concentrate on active positive change for our country. May try and check out a few other sites….In general I am going to get ready for the revolution and trying to save our people and the inviroment……Blessings to you all.
June 19th, 2006 at 2:43 amRead the 6th amendment again. It does not say “In all criminal prosecutions of Americans on American soil” it says “In all criminal prosecutions.” There are no exceptions.
Further, read the Geneva convention again:
How can an Advocate or counsel be qualified if they don’t get to see their client?
So far as I see it, the CIA, is engaged in war crimes. Either these people criminal suspects, in which case they are entitled to due process, as well as a slew of other rights, or they are POW’s, in which case they are entitled to the protections offered by the Geneva conventions. You can’t claim that they are niether and therefore not protected. The gap you are exploiting does not exist under American and International law. It is that simple.
Oh, and your link? That is to a opinion on the matter, I am quoting the raw law here.
June 19th, 2006 at 2:59 amand just from your own link, seen as you seem to believe it to be a sound authority (though I think they are basically wrong due to the fact that not all the militia groups in Iraq are the same, and therefore it is difficult to tell who respects international law and who doesn’t. Better to play it safe at any rate.)
I wouldn’t call waterboarding humane. Further, as America is the detaining power, American law has to be used, and guess what, the 6th Amendment has that nasty little lack of loopholes to wriggle through. They get due process, or POW status. You can’t have them getting neither.
June 19th, 2006 at 3:30 am[...] On Friday, two US servicemen were kidnapped at a checkpoint in Iraq. Tony spins so hard he could become a clean energy source: The thing is the way the war is being covered — and we’ve seen it right now, we have two U.S. servicemen, and god bless them, we hope they’re okay. We’re focusing on them and we forget that since Zarqawi was killed, hundreds of bad guys have been rounded up, there has been a lot of intelligence. The Iraqis have gone ahead mobilized 50,000 men going in the five Baghdad neighborhoods. There is a lot going on there. [...]
June 19th, 2006 at 6:17 amAH, TONY RETURNS TO THE MOTHER SHIP.
June 19th, 2006 at 7:30 amAn excerpt from a previous cold-blooded statement from Snow:
“…and one of the things the President has said is that these people will not die in vain.”
Notice the context and tense of Snow’s comment here. “These people” refers to the hallfull of living soldiers whose cheering for the president got him misty-eyed; “will not die in vain” refers to Bush’s plans for these same currently living, breathing troops. Oh, there’re gonna die, just not in vain.
See “To Die for Germany: Heroes in the Nazi pantheon” by Jay W. Baird for a chilling portrait of another nationalist death-cult in action. To such people, altruistic sacrifices in the past demand the same from those still living. Victory is the chimeric goal, but it always jumps ahead: death is the only certain path to fascist redemption…except for the leaders, of course – they’re pre-redeemed.
June 19th, 2006 at 8:10 amTo the moron who mocked Clinton and Gore and how they wouldn’t be at the “front” carrying a rifle:
THEY WOULDN’T HAVE ILLEGALLY INVADED IRAQ, you MORON.
And why AREN’T these captured soldiers worth our interest? Because they aren’t clinically dead, like Terri Schiavo? Because they aren’t actually recuperating in a hospital, like Jessica Lynch? Because they aren’t Cuban, like Elian Gonzalez?
June 19th, 2006 at 8:40 amYou Right-Wing liars and cowards were the first to excoriate President Clinton over “BlackHawk down”, so where is your outrage NOW, you pansy-boy greed-head hypocritical ignoramuses?
INTERESTING
June 19th, 2006 at 9:16 amHere’s an interesting thought: What would happen if the Iraqui insurgents announce that they will treat these two soldiers like we treat their soldiers? What if they say they will be held as incommunicado as we hold theirs? What if they say they will act with more civility than we do by letting us know where to find them when they are done with them? How will Mr. Bush react to that?
As soon as he finds where they are being held, W will order the insurgents be taken out with a half dozen 2000 pound smart bombs. The kidnapped soldiers? – that is what one calls collateral damage.
June 19th, 2006 at 9:36 amA class act all the way
June 19th, 2006 at 10:47 amThe two missing soldiers are in my thoughts and prayers. In the wake of abu Ghraib and Gitmo, rendition, and blacksite prisons, I fear that they are on the receiving end of Iraq retribution for America’s evil torture policies.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:24 amSo let’s get this straight Tony. A whole week and a half of coverage of Zarqawi’s death and the subsequent raids wasn’t enough for you eh? Any bad news = takes away the Zarqawi shine. We know you want Bushit’s approval ratings to go up but they will go right back down where they belong.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:53 pmThe man has no soul.
Comment by WaltTheMan — June 18, 2006 @ 10:31 am
Of course he hasn’t – giving up one’s soul to the devil is a sine qua non for joining the Republican Party.
June 19th, 2006 at 1:34 pmok, ok i give! pjh, is it petite john hinckley, pretty johnny h, pj haute–if it’s got to be initials or an acronym, why not gwb, george wannebe
June 19th, 2006 at 1:36 pm[...] Think Progress [...]
June 19th, 2006 at 5:22 pm>Last week at a White House press briefing, Snow was asked for a reaction to the death toll for U.S. troops in Iraq reaching 2,500. Snow responded: “It’s a number.â€
That’s “COMPASSIONATE CONSERVATIVISM” for you.
June 19th, 2006 at 5:34 pmComment by Briseadh na Faire — June 18, 2006 @ 11:43 pm
The Supreme Court ruling did nopt grant them all the rights of the Constitution, it simply granted them the right to Habius Corpus. Currently they may petition a judge for Habius Corpus, and there case is handled by a tribunel of three officers. In regards to rights above and beyond that, they don’t have any. There is currently a case in the Supreme Court to further define their rights. So quit playing with reality.
June 19th, 2006 at 6:07 pm#146 Comment by Briseadh na Faire — June 18, 2006 @ 11:53 pm
Already covered. An $8 dollar increase in their prescription co-pay and $250 annual admin fee, big deal. And Bush raised VA medical funding 40%.
June 19th, 2006 at 6:09 pm#154 Comment by Lora — June 19, 2006 @ 1:24 am
Hmmm, a guy who cared enough about the election to speak out against Kerry donated money to Bush. Yeah, definate smoking guy there.
June 19th, 2006 at 6:13 pmHmmm, a guy who cared enough about the election to speak out against Kerry donated money to Bush. Yeah, definate(SIC) smoking guy there.
Comment by pjh
To pjh,
June 19th, 2006 at 6:24 pmNot just one guy–several–not to mention the same legal advisor. But it’s your right to believe what you want. And, by the way, not one of the Swiftboat Veterans for “Truth” guys was on the same boat as Kerry.
Comment by A.Citizen — June 19, 2006 @ 2:01 am
You act as if our soldiers are just going around massacring Iraq civilians everywhere. I know, you are going to say they are, but then you will be wrong. Our soldiers and Marines show incredible restraint. Yes, crimes do happen, but they are rare.
And the truth is the Shias want us to stay until the country is stable, it’s the Sunni’s that want us gone. The Kurds want us to stay forever. But you will dispute that also.
June 19th, 2006 at 7:39 pmComment by Bruce Gorton — June 19, 2006 @ 2:59 am
These are precisely the issues before the Supreme Court right now. So as of now, they do not have those rights, and their right to due process is the military tribunel of three officers. And it will remain so until the Supreme Court changes the rules.
June 19th, 2006 at 7:42 pmComment by denise b. — June 19, 2006 @ 8:40 am
Nothing but insults, no definable argument other than insults. You call me a Bush defender, yet I have told you I don’t support Bush. You call me a murderer, but I’ve already stated I don’t support the war in Iraq. You guys will say whatever you want. I come in here and defend the truth, but all you guys can come up with is insults and conspiracy theories.
June 19th, 2006 at 7:45 pmComment by Sharon Cox — June 19, 2006 @ 2:43 am
Do you even read? Do you comprehend English? I haven’t attacked anyone. I haven’t called anyone anything. But I have murderer, coward, and a whole collection of abuse heaped on me. But now I’m the one name calling?
June 19th, 2006 at 7:48 pmComment by denise b. — June 19, 2006 @ 8:40 am
P.S. Oh, now I have no compassion for the two soldiers, huh? FUnny, I never said anything close to that but now you accuse me of that also.
Comment by Gilbert — June 19, 2006 @ 9:16 am
I’m sure they are praying for treatment like that. But it looks like a 100% certainty they will get their heads cut-off on camera.
How can you even FATHOM them being treated like we treat our prisoners as being scary?
June 19th, 2006 at 7:51 pmComment by kerry thomas — June 19, 2006 @ 1:36 pm
Your first post and you give up? Guess you knew better than to wade in here and get stomped.
June 19th, 2006 at 7:52 pmComment by Lora — June 19, 2006 @ 6:24 pm
So what, you think it’s like one boat sailing in the middle of the ocean? They operate together. They were in the same unit. They slept in the same tents and ate in the same chowhalls. And they went on missions together. And look at his unit picture here.
June 19th, 2006 at 7:56 pm176: “You act as if our soldiers are just going around massacring Iraq civilians everywhere. I know, you are going to say they are, but then you will be wrong. Our soldiers and Marines show incredible restraint. Yes, crimes do happen, but they are rare.”
June 19th, 2006 at 11:12 pmI see you haven’t been to Iraq, nor in combat… Who told you these crimes
were rare? You must’ve read that on some right-wing blog… War is one big atrocity with civilians killed every day, intentionally and unintentionally; get your head out of the sand…
So what, you think it’s like one boat sailing in the middle of the ocean? They operate together. They were in the same unit. They slept in the same tents and ate in the same chowhalls. And they went on missions together. And look at his unit picture here.
Comment by pjh
pjh,
June 20th, 2006 at 12:24 amThe men who served on the same boat with Kerry as well as the widow of one of the deceased members have all come to his defense. One of them, originally a registered Republican, even says that Kerry saved his life. Sorry, but I tend to believe them more than people on another boat, where things, yes, may be visible on a peaceful clear day but not so much so when bullets are flying left and right and possibly the weather bad (I’m not necessarily saying it was.).
One of the Swiftboat Veterans “Truth” was among those who originally recommended Kerry for one of his medals. I’m sure you won’t agree with my opinion of why he changed his mind decades later, so I won’t mention it.
Comment by nikolai — June 19, 2006 @ 11:12 pm
Actually I read it daily on the Sig Events postings on the pages of the units involved. Go ahead, prove your point, list all of the credible links to stories about massacres. Oh, make sure your boolean search includes ‘NOT INSURGENTS’, that will cut down your findings by about 95%. If you believe massacres by American Service Members occur daily, not only do you have no credible reporting that shows that, but you are severally impaired on your ability to search the news.
And before you tell me to post links, these are YOUR claims. Post your links to these massacres and I will club them aside like Babe Ruth. But you won’t do that. Instead I detect the next round of insults headed my way. I post link to credible sources of information, you guys post insults.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:53 amComment by Lora — June 20, 2006 @ 12:24 am
Uh, we got a campaign photo used by Kerry (The one I posted a reference to.). Out of like 30 people 3, 10%, support Kerry. You wouldn’t know about this, but you learn a lot about someone on a deployment, especially on a combat deployment. You can’t hide when you are interacting 24 hours a day with your fellow servicemen. A 10% approval rate is pretty damning. But then again, I didn’t bring it up, he did.
June 20th, 2006 at 12:56 amComment by nikolai — June 19, 2006 @ 11:12 pm
Not to mention that I experienced it, or rather, I didn’t experience it. Hmmm, shall we believe your left-wing blogs or someone who was actually there?
“Hmmm, Oh yeah, he’s a Bush supporter, so he isn’t credible. Hmm, he said he doesn’t like Bush or the War in Iraq, but he has a dissenting opinion and unlike us he actually experienced it, so lets just heap abuse on him.”
June 20th, 2006 at 1:01 am185 pjh; you are reaching; first of all, YOU stated the bit about “massacres by American Service Members occur daily”, not me. All I am saying is, if you haven’t been in a war zone, you really don’t know how bad it can be. There are many situations where civilians are killed accidentally and otherwise due to extraordinary circumstances. Remember, in every war many atrocities are committed; however, the victor has no war criminals…
June 20th, 2006 at 1:29 amUh, we got a campaign photo used by Kerry (The one I posted a reference to.). Out of like 30 people 3, 10%, support Kerry.
comment by pjh
To pjh
June 20th, 2006 at 1:38 amI can believe that people learn a lot about each other when they are deployed together. But where did you get the figure #3 out of 30 people?” There were more than three members of Kerry’s crew (or whatever you call it in the military) up there on the podium with him at the Democrat Convention in 2004. Afterwards, the widow of a deceased member also spoke in his defense, and another man who served on the same boat as Kerry, who had tried to maintain his neutrality as a journalist, rose to his defense, too, once the Swiftboating got too bad. To paraphrase your reply in #187 to nikolai: “shall we believe the right-wing groups out to smear Kerry, or someone who was actually there?”
Now whether or not the documents used by Dan Rather were a forgery, I don’t remember anybody from the Alabama National Guard rising to say they recall George Bush being around during a certain period when he claims he was. Some have even said they certainly would have remembered him if he had shown up regularly, since he was the son of an Ambassador and had dated Tricia Nixon.
Also, for the record, when George Bush was running against Ann Richards for governor of Texas, rumors were spread that Gov. Richards was a lesbian or had lesbians working for her. After George Bush lost to John McCain in Republican presidential primaries in New Hampshire and Michigan, suddenly rumors began surfacing prior to the South Carolina primary that McCain was mentally unbalanced because of the torture he had endured in the “Hanoi Hilton” and also that he had fathered a black child out of wedlock. (McCain and his wife in actuality had adopted a darkskinned child from Sri Lanka or Bangladesh.) Funny how vicious smearing takes place every time Bush runs for office (and in campaigns for other politicians that used Karl Rove’s services). If you want to think there is no connection, go ahead; that’s your privilege. But don’t expect everyone else to.
Who’s playing with reality?
First you say the Constitution doesn’t apply to them. Then you say the Supreme Court ruling did not grant them all the rights of the Constitution.
but a few posts earlier, before I put up the links you were saying, “That is complete and utter BS.”
And, if you do your research properly, Bush only asked for about a 13% increase in VA funding, balancing the VA budget with increased fees to veterans. It was Congress who approved the additional funds, over and above Bush’s request.
Oh, and you have yet to support your international law claims.
Hence, you are damned by your own words.
June 20th, 2006 at 4:22 amI mean you stupid, bush ass-licking, bitch.
June 20th, 2006 at 1:48 pmHere’s some food for thought.
June 20th, 2006 at 2:27 pm#189
All I am saying is, if you haven’t been in a war zone, you really don’t know how bad it can be.
Comment by nikolai — June 20, 2006 @ 1:29 am
I’ve got six Combat tours, so I have been in a war zone. Yes, it’s a scary, ugly, place. But my points are based on knowledge and experience.
June 20th, 2006 at 6:29 pm#191
Who’s playing with reality?
First you say the Constitution doesn’t apply to them. Then you say the Supreme Court ruling did not grant them all the rights of the Constitution.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — June 20, 2006 @ 4:22 am
Just because the Supreme Court granted them a right to habius corpus does not mean they have Constitutional Rights. People in England have a right to Habius Corpus, but they are not Constitutional Rights. So you are saying the Supreme Court granted them some rights but not others? They’re either covered or they are not, there is no in-between when it comes to the Constitution.
but a few posts earlier, before I put up the links you were saying, “That is complete and utter BS.â€
No, you need to read a bit more carefully. I was responding to someone who said;
I just saw a story the other day that injured soldiers had their co-payment increased? Why are they having to pay for anything, at any time.
SOLDIERS pay nothing for their medical care, no co-payment, nothing. VETERANS do have a co-payment. But VETERANS whose medical care is based on wounds received while they were on active duty NEVER pay a dime for that care. And noone who is wounded and undergoing medical care pays a dime.
And, if you do your research properly, Bush only asked for about a 13% increase in VA funding, balancing the VA budget with increased fees to veterans. It was Congress who approved the additional funds, over and above Bush’s request.
I said the VA medical budget has increased 40% by Bush. He proposed the raise and he signed it into law and it happened under his administration. You are splitting hairs here.
June 20th, 2006 at 6:53 pmSo be it. If I point out factual inaccuracies in your statements, I am splitting hairs.
You apparantly know so much more about the Constitution than I. To think of all that time and money I spent studying Constitutional Law, Civil and Criminal Proceedure and Human Rights…when I could have just read your posts. And to think, one of my classes was even taught by a Supreme Court Justice.
I have learned nothing. I bow to your wisdom and deep scholarly knowledge phj.
[Translation: I will no longer debate you. You speak sophisms.]
June 21st, 2006 at 11:19 am#196 Comment by Briseadh na Faire — June 21, 2006 @ 11:19 am
Argue with the Supreme Court decision itself;
Because subsequent decisions of this Court have filled the statutory gap that had occasioned Eisentrager’s resort to “fundamentals,” persons detained outside the territorial jurisdiction of any federal district court no longer need rely on the Constitution as the source of their right to federal habeas review. In Braden v. 30th Judicial Circuit Court of Ky., 410 U. S. 484, 495 (1973), this Court held, contrary to Ahrens, that the prisoner’s presence within the territorial jurisdiction of the district court is not “an invariable prerequisite” to the exercise of district court jurisdiction under the federal habeas statute. Rather, because “the writ of habeas corpus does not act upon the prisoner who seeks relief, but upon the person who holds him in what is alleged to be unlawful custody,” a district court acts “within [its] respective jurisdiction” within the meaning of §2241 as long as “the custodian can be reached by service of process.”
This is the majority opinion in Rasul vs. Bush.
Congress enacted the original U.S. federal habeas corpus statute in the Judiciary Act of 1789, granting the right to persons “in custody, under or by color of the authority of the United States, or committed for trial before some court of the same.
This is from; http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/cgi-bin/getcase.pl?court=US&navby=case&vol=000&invol=03-334
Clearly, their right to Habius Corpus does not reside in the Constitution, but in Common Law recognized by the Judiciary act of 1789.
You should study a bit more, or become a para-legal.
June 22nd, 2006 at 12:19 amAphrodite, I have no idea what your political leanings are, but it seems you are a lawyer, as opposed to a student. What is your opinion of 196 and 197?
June 22nd, 2006 at 12:22 am196 – perhaps you could explain how the case was decided by the Supreme Court if Rasul lacked standing? There doesn’t seem to be a statutory grant of standing. Was it perhaps Article III standing?
And, once the jurisdictional issue of Habeus Corpus was decided, and the case remanded, are you arguing that the Due Process clause of the 5th Amendment did not attach? Or the 6th Amendment right to counsel?
And how is it that he had counsel in the first place? Maybe because of the 5th Amendment right to counsel?
I leave these questions to you and Mighty Aphrodite to figure out.
June 22nd, 2006 at 5:12 ampjh???
Aphrodite???
June 23rd, 2006 at 10:35 am