Court expands review of ‘partial birth’ abortion.
By on Jun 19th, 2006 at 10:58 am
Court expands review of ‘partial birth’ abortion.
The Supreme Court said today it will review a California case over whether the federal late-term abortion ban “imposed an undue burden on a woman’s right to seek an abortion and whether it is unconstitutionally vague.” The Court had already agreed to rule on a challenge to the law that originated in Nebraska. More from SCOTUSBlog.
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Iraq, the economy, the CIA, our nation’s defenses – those are going to take about 25 years to clean up.
The slashing and burning of our rights and the partisan hacks on SCOTUS are going to take about 75.
Oh well, like Bush, I’ll be dead by then. Hopefully I’ll be able to spit on his grave before then.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:03 amBefore the trolls come and spew their rhetoric, I just want to clarify one thing. Partial birth abortions are performed only for reasons like these:
Fetus has no brain.
Fetus has no heart.
Fetus has no stomach.
Fetus will not survive.
Fetus died in the womb. (I actually heard an ignoramus state that the woman should have GIVEN BIRTH naturally to a DEAD baby!)
or
Mother’s health is in DANGER!
June 19th, 2006 at 11:07 amQuestion for the right to lifers: If a woman has a miscarriage, should the police investigate like they would investigate the unexplained death of a 5 year old child?
June 19th, 2006 at 11:15 ammadashell
In other words the kid would be born a Republican?
June 19th, 2006 at 11:15 amMy body, my decision.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:19 amWill the Guy from Norway come onto this thread too?
June 19th, 2006 at 11:19 am#6 – Oh please, no.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:22 am#3 there are laws on the books, including in NY, protecting an unborn child and the mother from an illegal abortion.
To all, why does progress equate abortion? It doesn’t. Progress equates changing our society and economy to ensure basic rights and needs so abortions are not necessary. This means let’s all stop focusing on this issue, one way or the other, and work together to eliminate abortions without throwing anyone in jail or making anyone use a hanger. By fighting this issue, we don’t focus on what matters.
If we would just stand up, acknowledge that abortions are not good and should be few and far between, then agree to basic compromises, the overall right would be protected and the number would decrease. Win win.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:25 am#4 – ROTFLMAO -Thanks – that was good!
June 19th, 2006 at 11:25 amPost 7 > nobody must mention Karl Rove on here > damn I said the key name and the Guy from Norway might see it > lol.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:25 am#4, no no no… you’re confused… then they’d have no _soul_.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:32 amfunny most of the pro- abortion folks here are the sons and daughters of the ones crying “baby- killer” in the 60’s and 70’s.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:34 amhey if it “your body, your descision” how come you were not smart enought NOT TO GET PREGNANT??
I bet all of you here are against the Iraq war but have no qualms about killing unborn kids do ya?
why is it that the left is pro choice on abortion and gays but anti- choice on everything else?? How about some equity on choices? The hypocrisy of the left never ends to amaze and nauseate me.
#12 – let me get one thing straight, especially if your are a male – STAY OUT OF MY WOMB – STAY OUT OF MY CHILDREN’S WOMBS. And if you really care about making abortions few and far between, then I suggest you ramp up your party to start supporting birth control and family planning.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:39 ammoonbat > your screenname fits you well > now go play in the sandbox with your toy Tonka truck > lol.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:41 ammoonbat patrol
Let me repost something for your benefit, because this one is a very specific issue:
Lets stick to the topic at hand shall we?
June 19th, 2006 at 11:44 amFetus died in the womb. (I actually heard an ignoramus state that the woman should have GIVEN BIRTH naturally to a DEAD baby!)
My sister did this. Part of the grieving process, I guess. Nonetheless, I understand it’s not for everyone.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:44 amwhat right do you have to tell me to get out of your womb when the government has control over everything else. who the hell do you think you are to demand that the government allows you to make a “choice” when it is your party that wants control and tax everything else. If you are that damn smart don’t get pregnant. engage brain before activating womb.think with your head not your vagina.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:44 am#13 – Well said, madashell.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:45 amIm against abortion , We need these babies to fight in our military against terrorists that try to harm us also they can pay taxes at the same time thats what keeps our country the best in the world
June 19th, 2006 at 11:46 am#17 – can somebody please decipher what the hell this bushlover is talking about?
June 19th, 2006 at 11:47 amJust one more thing – you all do realize if it were the men who were the ones who give birth – YOU KNOW DAMN WELL ALL that there would be no question about abortion.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:50 ammoonbat > you are a prime example why abortions must remain legal, so that a mother can abort an unwanted incest conceived baby like you!
June 19th, 2006 at 11:50 ammoonbat patrol
Tell me, what exactly is your stance on social security benefits for unwed mothers?
June 19th, 2006 at 11:50 amOr increasing funding for public schools?
Or public health care?
Tell me, do you even give a shit about the child once it is out of the womb, or is it a punishment on the mother for having sex?
It is woman’s choice to have an abortion. It is her right. It is nobody’s business if she does.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:51 am#17 – I have every right to tell you to stay out of my womb, SINCE IT’S MY WOMB. It lives in MY BODY. I don’t care if the government has control over every other thing on earth. My body is mine.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:51 am#16
June 19th, 2006 at 11:56 amI think once a fetus is truly dead, the doctors induce delivery as soon as possible to avoid medical complications.
I am sorry about your sister. It must be so hard giving birth knowing you won’t have a child.
First, this, along with gay marriage, is just another smoke screen for the rest of the crap the administration’s put the country into. Now that the elephant in the china shop’s been acknowledged…
I’m not a big fan of the procedure because it’s generally done after the fetus could be viable. I’m pro-choice for the most part, but partial birth abortion isn’t performed for most of the reasons given above.
Fetus has no brain.
- In a partial birth abortion, the brain of the fetus is sucked out. This argument is bogus.
Fetus has no heart.
- The fetus could not have survived to this point in the pregnancy without a heart.
Fetus died in the womb.
-This isn’t an abortion then. Abortion means aborting a live pregnancy, this is simply removal.
Mother’s health is in DANGER!
- The procedure for a partial birth abortion is actually one of the most damaging forms of abortion for the mother.
I believe in the right to choose, but choose wisely. All the research I’ve done has pointed to the fact that this form of abortion is utilized as to harvest the baby organs for transplant. Chemical abortions don’t offer the same preservation to the rest of the fetus as partial birth. As for the ethics of this, I’m not sure if I agree with it or not. Part of me says “the baby is viable at this stage, give birth and give it up for adoption.” Part of me says “this gives babies that are wanted healthy organs.” I’m just very glad I’ve never been in a position to make that decision.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:58 am# 23 I am all for ending government monopolies. I am for low taxes. I am for personal choice for EVERYONE, not just pregnant women.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:00 pmJay Randal- I am against retarded people like you using computers… grow up.
funny how this subject all gets turned into a feminazi rant session. smart enough for a “choice” but not smart enough to not get pregnant. If you can’t feed em don’t breed em.
#28 – I am for personal choice for EVERYONE, not just pregnant women.
Please explain what you mean by this.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:05 pmHence the point of the abortion…
June 19th, 2006 at 12:07 pmThis thread should be a hot one. Both sides can be effectively accused of killing. As the Right has no tolerance for partial birth abortion, even if it is a medical necessity, because they worry about abuses and misuses of this procedure. That street goes in both directions. The left is also intolerant of war, as we worry about abuses and misuses of that procedure. Killing is killing, there are exceptions when killing is necessary. The right would rather use the exceptions for war, the left would rather use the exceptions for abortion. The majority in this country, however, would rather have abortion over war.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:08 pmFetus has no brain.
- In a partial birth abortion, the brain of the fetus is sucked out. This argument is bogus.
For your information, I work for the healthcare industry. I do believe I know more than most. So you have never heard of fetuses with no brains? Or with defective hearts? These procedures are not done lightly, damn it. The decision is not an easy one to make for ANY woman. If what you state about harvesting organs is true – then please give me PROOF. Maybe it has happened, but I for one have NEVER heard that argument.
As for adoption – how about the children who are in dire need RIGHT NOW – living, breathing children, who have no chance of being adopted because they are no longer infants. How about we take care of them FIRST!
June 19th, 2006 at 12:09 pm#28 yes it is funny how you go into your feminazi rant session. You do that a lot, do you?
June 19th, 2006 at 12:09 pmPost 28 moonbat > you are the fully retarded person on here! If you cannot take the heat in here, then get out of the TP kitchen?! How dare you come on here spewing your right-wing dogma crap > you sound very similer to I-Right-I, so vanish before TP figures that out!
June 19th, 2006 at 12:10 pmI agree, preventative approaches are best. Don’t get pregnant to begin with. However, who wants to breech that subject? It’s some stupid unwritten rule to avoid that approach in this country. You are free to get pregnant as much as you want, but after that, we tell you what to do about it.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:11 pmHow about the government stick it’s nose into partenting? If we wont let you abort the child, we now are responsible to tell you how to parent.
How about a penalty for getting pregnant under certain circumstances? How about sterilization for certain people in certain circumstances?
All these are just as controversial, but lets just continue to narrowly focus on the abortion part of the bigger picture. How stupid.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:13 pmThe right tends to want to squash sex-ed classes though. What it comes down to is a we don’t want to teach you how to avoid getting pregnant, but if you do we want you to live in poverty.
I think the statement: The republicans want live fetus’s to grow up to be dead soldiers is pretty accurate.
I for one would like to see Roe V wade overturned. Not because I am against choice, or think it was decided incorrectly, but because it would be a terrible blow to the republican party. They would have to really hype the gay marriage causes to energize thier base.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:14 pm#35 – For Truth, it’s funny to me how the biggest opponents to abortion, are the same people who are against sex education and birth control. I just don’t get that. I think their real focus is stopping all the nasty sex, and controlling women. If they really gave a shit about the children, there wouldn’t be so many unadopted children in this world.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:17 pm#27. I’m waiting….
June 19th, 2006 at 12:19 pmYeah Krazny,
I would like to see Roe V. Wade overturned just to take away one more thing the Repubs use as a distraction. And to show them it really aint makin’ a difference in the quality of our society, and we still have all the same problems.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:19 pmKrazny
The Republicans will just find something else to whine about. Its what whiney people do.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:21 pm#28
Both Sex and Pregnancy are not always a matter of choice.
#27
There are very few partial birth abortions done. I don’t want to give unsourced arguements but I remember one story last year or the year before. in the Washington Post. The mother was pregnant and found out in the 6th month that her child had a rare genetic disease. It would either die at birth or soon afterwards. She had a late term abortion. The fetus couldn’t be tested any earlier, so it was either a late abortion or going through the dangers of pregnancy for no reason.
It is possible for a fetus to develop without a brain. Its a very rare condition but can’t be detected early in the pregnancy. Why not have an abortion?
Serious Health complications to the mother can occur in the late stages of pregnancy. At this point its either stop the pregnancy and have one death or continue and have two. Vaginal delivery of the dead fetus is less traumatic than a Caesarian.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:22 pm#38, Zoo,
Yup, I don’t get it, or maybe I do. The Right just loves these little babies and wants them to live. But forget about adequately funding their education, lets cut spending on headstart, public healthcare etc. Lets let unfit parents take care of the child, and dreastically underfund child welfare services. Like here in the Red State of AZ, they are 48th in funding schools, our child welfare system is horribly underfunded, little to no prevention or education for parents, lots of private prisons to detain them. If it somehow costed a lot of money to ban abortion, the right would forget about it.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:26 pm#42 – they won’t do a cesarean section on a dead fetus – they would have to induce labor -
June 19th, 2006 at 12:27 pm#43 – For Truth
That’s what I see almost everyday here in Red State Idaho. We have a group here in town that is so rabidly anti-abortion that it makes me sick. We have a guy running for congress (Sali) who is a complete nutjob for a lot of reasons, but mainly his views on abortion. Meanwhile the schools are crap, social services are crap, daycare for low income – forget about it. One of the attorneys I work for specializes in adoption and does a ton of adoptions every year, but we have NEVER done an adoption for one of these rabid anti-abortion people. I don’t even know where I’m going with this, I just get so upset.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:35 pmOne more comment, then I gotta work. Birth defects. More and more known birth defects because of corporate/government malfeasance when it comes to our environment. Poisoned water. Poisoned air. Poisoned food. These are issues the right like to ignore, for some odd reason, I’m not quite sure. I for one find it MATTERS where my food is grown and HOW its grown. I find it MATTERS that those who grow our food are not exploited by the likes of CONAGRA. I find it MATTERS what is in the water I utilize. I find it MATTERS what the factory is burning and releasing in the air that I’m breathing. I find it MATTERS that my children and their children grow up to inherit a HEALTHIER planet. and I find it MATTERS NOW!
June 19th, 2006 at 12:38 pmmadashell, What do you do in the healthcare industry? I’m a forensic scientist.
Before this gets ugly, let me make this clear- abortion should be safe and legal. Women should be able to choose. Don’t make me the enemy because I asked questions. Now, back to your regularly scheduled ranting.
100% of the time, death is caused by lack of oxygen to the brain (what causes lack of oxygen is the tricky part). Lack of O2 causes the brain to be unable to function, hence not sending necessary signals to all parts of the body to sustain life, hence life ceases.
From what I understand of anatomy though, a brain is necessary to tell the body how to develop. Everything (breathing, masturbating, enjoying the taste of chocolate, heart beating) comes from the brain. I’ve heard of children being born with massively stunted growth in the brain, having brain stem and base but extremely small brain, but never without brain completely. It’s anatomically impossible for a baby to develop past a certain point without it. In a partial birth abortion, the fetus is aborted by removal of the brain. How is the baby aborted in a partial birth abortion if there is no brain?
I believe that women absolutely should have the right to choose. However, as I said before, I’m not a fan of the procedure. All things being equal, the simplest explanation is usually true. Doesn’t it just make sense that this is why a partial birth abortion would be done? There are several other forms of abortion, this one gives the most in tact fetus.
http://www.rutherford.org/articles_db/press_release.asp?article_id=615
June 19th, 2006 at 12:40 pmhttp://cseserv.engr.scu.edu/StudentWebPages/WBahng/against2.htm
http://www.nrlc.org/Baby_Parts/omeara.html
Post 45 Zookeeper > why do you live in Idaho? Just asking because skin-head Nazis live there and that state maybe more right-wing than Utah?! Some nice mountains in Idaho, but how can you stand the rednecks there?
June 19th, 2006 at 12:40 pm#46 – Amen, madashell, amen.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:41 pmjay,
the Nazi’s got kicked out when thier leader lost his land in a lawsuit. Hayden lake is better off for it. Absolutely beautiful area too. If you get a chance head to Sandpoint Idaho. Great, great town. Lots of hippies and artist types up there too.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:42 pm#48 – Jay, it’s just where I landed after my marriage fizzled so many years ago. My dad had a law practice here and I needed some skills after having been a full time mom. I live in a university town, so it’s not nearly as bad as some places in Idaho. I do love the land out here, it’s so beautiful. I have considered moving to Washington (one minute away) or Montana (6 hours away). I’ve never met or seen a skinhead except on television, but the rednecks are numerous. I find we just don’t hang out in the same places, thank goodness. Although, in the past when I worked on criminal prosecutions, I had a “professional” acquaintance with many of them, and they’ll still say hello if I see them on the street.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:49 pmPost 50 some hippies in Idaho? Never heard of that before, but that area sounds cool > do they have to carry guns to protect themselves from the rednecks? ( Just kidding.)
June 19th, 2006 at 12:49 pmscarlette – I believe that women absolutely should have the right to choose.
Then the whole argument should stop right there.
You’re right though – partial birth abortions for dubious reasons is wrong – but again none of my damn business.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:52 pmPost 51 Zookeeper > since you are near a university it sounds OK, and yes I like mountains and scenery! Yosemite is one of my favorite places! I considered moving to Montana once, but kinda cold in the winter there!
June 19th, 2006 at 12:53 pmJay,
there are some good spots in the Pacific Northwest. Sandpoint Idaho, Republic, Wa. The land is pretty lots to do if you an outdoors type. Great place to live in my opinion. I lived for most of my life in the seattle area. Really nice there too, but far more people. Lots of rednecks sure, but they don’t tend to be the radical rabid types you get in the south.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:54 pm#51 – If you should move to Washington State, you should be aware that east of the Cascade Mountains (Spokane, etc.) is very conservative. Anywhere west of the Cascades – the Puget Sound area, is VERY BLUE.
June 19th, 2006 at 12:56 pmIf you move to eastern washington, head to republic, or twisp. both towns tend to the “blue side”
=)
June 19th, 2006 at 1:00 pmmadashell,
What do you do in the healthcare industry?
What was the arguement about then?
June 19th, 2006 at 1:01 pm#50 – Krazny, how could I have forgotten about that lawsuit that moved out the neo-nazis? *banging head*
#52 – Jay, Yes!, hippies in Idaho! Since Moscow is a university town, we have a fair few. Basically, I think the rednecks have guns to protect themselves from the hippies! They tend to be scared af what they don’t understand. ;)
June 19th, 2006 at 1:07 pmI will admit my measly job as a medical transcriptionist is nothing compared to your being a forensic scientist.
In a partial birth abortion, the fetus is aborted by removal of the brain. How is the baby aborted in a partial birth abortion if there is no brain?
Actually, I personally know of an instance where the fetus had no brain that was not discovered until the EIGHTH month of pregnancy. What do you call that then?
And personally I gave birth to a full term infant who didn’t have a complete stomach, and died three days later. So please, don’t lecture me.
June 19th, 2006 at 1:11 pmThanks, Krazny & madashell, for the moving advice! If you’re in eastern Washington, you might as well be in Idaho, that’s for sure!
June 19th, 2006 at 1:14 pmI agree zoo,
The panhandle of Idaho is great. My wife and I wanted to move to sandpoint, but the only decent company out there is coldwater Creek clothing. We tried to get jobs, but ended up in Los Angeles.
June 19th, 2006 at 1:20 pmgo figure. Oh well. we can move back at the end of the year. Plus the beaches down here are awesome.
#60 – I’m so sorry, madashell.
June 19th, 2006 at 1:23 pm#63 – thanks, though it was 30 years ago…
June 19th, 2006 at 1:27 pmScarlette;
Just out of curiousity, can you give a reference where embryos will not develop without a brain? I am curious.
For practical purposes, a human fetus with only a brain stem can be considered brainless. It won’t survive more than a couple of days out of the womb. Scarlette, I am not a physician and I don’t know where to do the research, but there is probably more than one method to do a late term abortion.
Wikepedia article that some people who have to have a late term abortion prefer this method as it gives them an intact corpse to see, and grieve over and bury.
Also about comment #58, while I cannot read madashell’s mind, I think she believes late term abortions should be legal because there are sometimes very good reasons for this procedure.
June 19th, 2006 at 1:32 pmEmbryo test ‘offers parents hope’
A new embryo test offers couples at risk of serious genetic diseases a greater chance of having an unaffected baby through IVF, UK scientists say.
The test looks at the whole DNA of a cell rather than focusing on a specific mutation in one gene, making it quicker to identify diseases in embryos.
It also allows doctors to check for many more potential illnesses.
The team will tell a Prague fertility conference five couples are expecting healthy babies after the test,
However, some campaigners have questioned the morality of such screening tests, as they inevitably lead to the destruction of some embryos.
Simone Aspis, from the British Council of Disabled People, said: “Who is going to make the decision about who should and should not live? We believe all babies have an equal right to life.”
The new “DNA fingerprint” test of a cell can spot from a genetic signature that a condition, such as cystic fibrosis, is present, the scientists behind it say.
June 19th, 2006 at 1:34 pm#60
June 19th, 2006 at 1:35 pmVery sorry.
I was one of the thousands in the early 60’s marching for freedon of choice, in Seattle. Also one to march for getting out of Viet Nam and ending war’s….For males to dictate what a woman does with her body requires one major imposible thing..You carry the child and deliver it, after that raise it single handedly for life..Birth control and education about sex at an early age takes care of nearly all the problems of unwanted pregnancy and diseases…..When young women are provided with the education and tools there are less abortions…..Period….Educate, feed, support and raise up each generation to better than the last instead of cutting funds and eliminating much needed programs…The present greedy administration want dumb to march in lock step, go with them and that’s what we have.
War’s are big business, just like the lieing relegious. Thump your bibles and cram your warped 2500 year old dogma down peoples throats heavy with fear and hate. I’m not now buying it, never did…What we need are more people like Murtha and Finegold. Keep the church out of our bedrooms and congress…We do not have any good negotiators or foreign representatives……We have bushco big business waramongers…..Untill these pack of thieves are out we are screwed…..
June 19th, 2006 at 2:21 pm#12 Fetuses are -not- human beings. Iraqis are.
June 19th, 2006 at 2:25 pmLook like I am becoming more of a supporter of state’s rights every day. Thanks God we did not have this far-right court back in the 50’s and 60’s or we would still be separate but equal.
June 19th, 2006 at 2:27 pm#69
At what point does a fetus become a human being?
June 19th, 2006 at 2:42 pm#68 – Well said, brief viset.
June 19th, 2006 at 2:46 pm#71 – When a human fetus is born, it’s then a human child.
June 19th, 2006 at 2:47 pmBetween the Bush judges and the religious extremists, hasn’t anyone noticed the slow and steady erosion of rights for women?
June 19th, 2006 at 2:49 pmIn every arena, from birth control to abortions, to breastfeeding, the emphasis is to regard all women as pregnant and treat them as less equal than men. Self appointed Barney Fifes have accused women of child abuse for drinking a glass of wine. Deny women access to birth control, then deny them abortions, insist they breast feed, but then deny them permission to breast feed at work or in public, (keep them home).
Women are being forced back fifty years, to the days when women were home to keep house, raise children and bake cookies. Men did the “important” work that received wages. Women were dependent on men for survival. I see us having made a U-turn and heading back in time.
#74 – Marie, I think this is what it’s all about. Control of women.
June 19th, 2006 at 2:55 pmI think that the GOP list of Social Security numbers and DNA should be open to all women who need to find and garnish the wages of dead beat fathers. After all if they didn’t want to pay child support, they didn’t need to have sex.
Sarcasm off.
Truthfully I haven’t noticed much effort recently to make fathers contribute more to child support. The Right Wing crazies don’t approve of public supported programs for early childhood development, so perhaps they should force fathers to do the right thing. Of course that won’t help if the economy is still bad and there are not any jobs that pay well enough to support both a man and his children.
June 19th, 2006 at 3:15 pm#74&75, you are right…The radical right is full of dual standards.Especialy when it comes to false relegious dogma, birth control, womens rights, the constitution and everything. it’s a nazi-esk point of control and domination..The decider in charge before he conviently “got relegion”. had his previous girl friend get an abortion. Probably a good thing.. But now he and his right wing dead brains want woment to be subserviant again. Same with the bush wars, big business taxes and everything..Sell off america, violate the voting and constitution and work to brain wash the public with repetive lies…..Off to painting picket signs and put on marching shoes.
June 19th, 2006 at 3:37 pmNo brain? No brain stem, no cerebrum, no cerebellum, no cerebral cortex, no neurons, nothing connected to the spinal column?
My sincerest of apologies. Note that I said nothing about stomache in my initial post. I can’t imagine how miserable that was for you, and I can understand why you have your opinion about late term abortion. However, I’ve kept these terms as technical and finite as possible and I have stayed away from personal attacks.
Once again, simplest answer is generally the truth. Everything that develops in your body gets it’s cue from the brain, that includes the heart beating. A fetus’s heart will not beat without a brain telling it to. Without a heartbeat, no blood to support the body (and symbiotically, the brain), the systems die. As for finding that the fetus won’t survive a few days out of the womb, that’s a case where late term abortion is 100% acceptable in my humble opinion.
I was talking specifically about partial birth. If you’re going to do a late term abortion, partial birth is a particularly grotesque method by which to carry it out.
June 19th, 2006 at 3:39 pmI was talking specifically about partial birth. If you’re going to do a late term abortion, partial birth is a particularly grotesque method by which to carry it out.
Comment by Scarlette
A heart transplant is also grotesque, but I’m not going to outlaw it on those grounds.
June 19th, 2006 at 3:43 pm#79 – Come to think of it, redneck hick, giving birth is quite grotesque. Actually, most medical has a high ick-factor. ;)
June 19th, 2006 at 3:53 pmHi, forensic scientist, investigates dead bodies!
Maybe inhumane was more the word I’m looking for, but comparing an abortion to a heart transplant? For posterity… comparing an abortion to a heart transplant?! Gotchya.
You attempt not to do anything “grotesque” in the medical world unless absolutely necessary… be it a partial birth abortion or a heart transplant.
June 19th, 2006 at 4:02 pmScarlette
>As for finding that the fetus won’t survive a few days out of the womb, that’s a
> case where late term abortion is 100% acceptable in my humble opinion.
>>Scarlette, I am not a physician and I don’t know where to do the research,
>>but there is probably more than one method to do a late term abortion.
> I was talking specifically about partial birth. If you’re going to do a late
> term abortion, partial birth is a particularly grotesque method by which to
> carry it out.
I am confused. I thought you opposed partial birth abortions since it was a late term, third trimester method. So you just oppose partial birth abortions, for esthetic reasons? Would you approve of a different method of late term abortions?
I don’t think any abortion method is not grotesque. D and C involves scraping the placenta and embryo out of the uterus. RU 42 involves hormones to force the placenta to slough out. Partial birth abortion is also know as Intact D&X. Here is the wikipedia article. It mentions some other late term abortion methods, none of which are pleasant reading.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Partial_birth_abortion
June 19th, 2006 at 4:20 pmScarlette;
June 19th, 2006 at 4:29 pmA reference please on embryo development and potential problems. I do suffer from curiousity and would like to read more. Its not particularly obvious to me. I saw a picture of a misformed calf fetus which was nearly inside out, the nervous system didn’t develp properly and was wondering why a brain is neccesary. The placenta takes care of food and oxygen supply so why does an embryo need its own brain to regulate heart beat. Actually anacephalic ( no brain ) babies often have the brain stem but nothing else, which explains how they live to term.
guns don’t kill people- abortion clinics do.
what a funny bunch here, hippies! have they not been told the 60’s are over yet?
June 19th, 2006 at 4:48 pmvery judgemental folks here . rednecks= racist term for working white guy whose politics you do not agree with.
Jay Randal- you are just so eloquent and personable. a regualar liberal porcupine ain’t ya. I am retarded because I disagree with you. welcome to america Che Guavarra- most of America disagrees with you. I thought you left wingers all liked the 1st ammendment and free speech and all or is that just for what YOU have to say??
I find it tragic that because women will not control their vaginas and sexual urges and will not put the same controls involved in driving a car (seat belt), cold weather (clothes) and animals (spay & neuter) on their sexual urges that we have to debate abortion.
my if you can’t feed em don’t breed em is intended to illustrate that if you don’t want children, don’t have sex or if you do take precautions so you don’t get pregnant. I know in today’s promiscuous times that sex is everything but maybe having some control might be in order.
#77 always witht the nazi analogy- but that’s ok that’s why you are called moonbats and that is why I am -moonbat patrol.
I find it tragic that because women will not control their vaginas and sexual urges and will not put the same controls involved in driving a car (seat belt), cold weather (clothes) and animals (spay & neuter) on their sexual urges that we have to debate abortion.
Moonbat patrol — Ever been raped?
I’m pretty sure you’re a guy, and you don’t seem to like women very much, so I wouldn’t expect you to try to understand what it’s like for a woman to be raped, so I’m asking you — have you ever been raped?
June 19th, 2006 at 5:55 pmZookeeper;
June 19th, 2006 at 6:01 pmAre you sure that talking to moonbat isn’t as a greater waste of time than talking to a cockroach scurrying across your kitchen? “There you are!” Stomp “Rest in Peace” pick up and throw in waste basket. “Happy Reincarnation, don’t come back as a Republican.”
Zookeeper no I have never been raped but I stopped one at gunpoint once. I do believe that in cases of rape, incest, and the woman’s health that abortion is ok & neccesary. I do not agree with abortion as a birth control method.
June 19th, 2006 at 6:11 pm# 86 mr septic you are just soooo macho.
#86 – You may be right, Skeptic, but at least he’s not Seixon. My problem is that I’m finding it hard to understand moonbat’s apparent belief that the only reason abortion exists is because we women won’t control our vaginas. I won’t pursue it to the ends of the earth, because I’m just plain sick of that shit around here. Thanks.
BTW: LOVE the cockroach analogy!
June 19th, 2006 at 6:15 pmGood one skeptic……Precisely why I did not respond…..
June 19th, 2006 at 6:17 pm#87 – Not that I agree with you completely, and that’s a rare thing anyway, in the future, in order to avoid any further confusion, you might want to add those qualifiers to your argument.
June 19th, 2006 at 6:24 pmMoonbat;
June 19th, 2006 at 6:46 pmYou didn’t put any of those restrictions on your previous antiabortion comments in this thread. Like rape and health and incest.
You just spoke of vaginas and woman’s sexual urges. Don’t men have sexual urges?
#91 – Skeptic, I resisted the urge to ask that, and now you’ve gone and done it. Good luck…
June 19th, 2006 at 6:52 pmI went back just now and read some of yesterday’s comments by Sexion. I couldn’t follow the arguement between him and unbelievable. the commentary gets far too long for the you said, I said, no he said style. But I was glad that no one reiterated their positions.
June 19th, 2006 at 6:53 pmI had found a nice article on Wikipedia about solar fluctuation and global warming and was feeling left out as no one wanted to discuss it. Seixon just wanted to reiterate his favorite arguements and not look at mine.
Zookeeper;
June 19th, 2006 at 6:54 pmI am going to run off now anyway. I was hoping for a reply from Scarlette with a site on fetal development.
Have fun in Pacific Time.
yes of course men have sexual urges but supposedly what seperates us from the animals is the ability to use reason, judgement and forethought. I do not just blame women- it takes two to tango as they used to say. men need to take responsiblity too. absolutely.
June 19th, 2006 at 7:11 pmMs. zookeeper I did not know I have to preface my opinion with a disclaimer. Why is it folks (like me and probably you too) espouse in strong ways spaying and neutering pets? so they don’t breed themselves into the horror of the unwanted pet gas chambers. I strongly believe above all else that overpopulation is the most dangerous threat to the survival of the human race and the planet. If we as humans cannot control our reproductive urges we will ultimately screw ourselves into oblivion. Today’s culture is a sex based envirornment. My quote from the 70’s is “sex is the major cause of everything” and it is even more so today. Most mammals copulate when the female comes into estrus and for reproduction only. Humans can be inpregnated 12x a year and have turned sex into a recreation, obsession and sometimes even a spectator sport.
I am all for forethought and contraception and controlling your own sexual urges. Abortion (insert my discalimer here) is a touchy subject. I guess my real objection to abortion is one of selectivity. Why is it women have this “freedom” to control their bodies? why are they the sole proprietors of “choice”? why cannot have the government get their “laws off my body”? Why can’t I do heroin, commit suicide, smoke pot ro do any other myriad things with my body? why when it comes to women and abortion is that considered so sacred a concept but when it comes to anything else the government can and does intrude in every way it can. Why do we have so many laws and regulations and taxes on everything but when it comes to a woman ending her pregnancy it is hands off? another of my issues with abortion is the woman’s mental “scarring” after an abortion. Most women I have talked to honestly and openly after their abortions have a sense of what i call profound regret and sadness. Abortion is a life changing decision for a woman and one that does impart mental harm I am convinced. there are many (if not all ) women who are scarred emotionally by abortion and it is sad to have a whole group of women who hurt inside so terribly.
i look at from a libertarian view and one of jealousy and resentment in all honesty. I am not against abortion on religious grounds and in reality i do support a woman’s right to choose, I just support everybody else’s right to choose the destiny of their bnody too without government intervention or intrusion.
Moonbat patrol, I’m going to pick out a few of your points to respond to.
I strongly believe above all else that overpopulation is the most dangerous threat to the survival of the human race and the planet.
I agree with you 100%.
Today’s culture is a sex based envirornment.
We humans are sexual beings. It’s ok to have sex if we want to, but we must be responsible. However, sex is not only for procreation.
Why is it women have this “freedom†to control their bodies?
The key word here is “their,” not freedom. Only women can become pregnant, so we are the sole proprietors of choice regarding our bodies. Only women have the pain and joy of childbirth, and only women are burdened physically with the possible choice of ending the pregnancy.
Why can’t I do heroin, commit suicide, smoke pot ro do any other myriad things with my body?
You can! I wouldn’t recommend any of them, for men or women, but I’ve learned to mind my own business.
another of my issues with abortion is the woman’s mental “scarring†after an abortion.
Not all women have mental scarring as a result of abortion, some do, but not all. A hidden truth is that some women are mentally scarred because they give birth to children they do not want or cannot afford. Admitting this is a social taboo, but it is true.
I am not against abortion on religious grounds and in reality i do support a woman’s right to choose, I just support everybody else’s right to choose the destiny of their bnody too without government intervention or intrusion.
So we’re in agreement on a woman’s right to choose, but then it seems that you falter because you support everyone else’s right to choose the destiny of their bodies without government intrusion. I, too, support those things, but only women become pregnant.
Listen, moonbat patrol, abortion should be safe for women who want or need it; legal because it needs to be safe; and rare. We need to have excellent education of our girls and boys, in the home and, to a certain degree, at school. We also need safe and available birth control. We are sexual beings, and maybe our society would stop being so obsessed about sex if we just relaxed a bit and learned to mind our own business.
This has been a good exchange, moonbat, at first you were pissing me off, but then I figured out that I needed to settle down, and listen to you. Thanks.
BTW: It’s pretty cool you stopped that rape.
June 19th, 2006 at 9:50 pmHave fun in Pacific Time.
Comment by Skeptic
I always do. ;)
June 19th, 2006 at 9:51 pmwell cool that we reached at least a modicum of consensus.
June 19th, 2006 at 10:38 pmthe only thing I might add is the next time you think about gun ownership and the second ammendment think of the rape I stopped beacuse I was armed. the dirtbag had a knife, had beat up the girl pretty bad and he was obviously on something. this was in the days before cell phones so I could not even call for help. my grlfriend had to drive to a nearby house to call the cops. the guy was obviously pissed I interrupted him and he actually came at me and honestly i was terified that i would have to shoot him and actually he was about six feet from me before he realized i would in fact shoot him. After the cops came, took him away and the ambulance came for the girl and the cops patted me on the back I about collapsed. I was glad afterwards that I had exercised my ” choice” and probably saved her life. This, it turned out was not the first time this dirbag had engaged in such activity and he went away for 20 years.
#98 – You’re not going to get me on the 2nd Amendment argument, moonbat! While I’m not a gun owner, by choice, I love to go to the range and target shoot, though I haven’t been for a while. I’m a crack shot, I might add. ;)
That situation with the rapist sounds terrifying. I think it’s funny how some people I know talk about carrying a gun for protection, and how they’d shoot some dirtbag in a heartbeat, and then go out for beers. As you have demonstrated, it’s not nearly so easy — even when it’s the right thing to do. Good job! Have a nice evening, cuz I’m outta here.
June 19th, 2006 at 11:19 pmZookeeper- glad to hear you accuracy is excellent!! i am the supreme chicken. While being a big bearded, ex biker over 6 foot I always look for ways to avoid trouble at all costs. The only thing that could propel me to severe violence would be if I saw somebody abusing a dog or cat. I just flip when i hear or see of somebody abusing an animal.
June 20th, 2006 at 8:04 amI guess my main point is that as Americans we are ina fight for our civil and constitutional rights . both the left and the right are equally guilty in this. The one commanlity we all have is government intrusion on our rights. The thing that scares me more than North Korea or muslim terrorists is “big brother”. We see it every day more and more and it is the true slippery slope. I hope that those of us on all side of the political spectrum will someday get together and put aside our differences because if we don’t we will all lose out. stay well
Good post’s #100 and Zookeeper……Many of us on the left, right and center believe in the constitution and 2nd amendment….Many more of us are silent about our ability and ownership of arms because of big brother………Just a note from a leftie who is also a crack shot and well armed….
June 20th, 2006 at 9:49 am