Bush the Diplomat: ‘For Europe, September 11 Was a Moment. For Us, it Was a Change of Thinking.’
By on Jun 21st, 2006 at 11:18 am
Bush the Diplomat: ‘For Europe, September 11 Was a Moment. For Us, it Was a Change of Thinking.’
Today, President Bush held a press conference in Vienna, Austria as part of a diplomatic visit to Europe. He was asked by a member of the press why approval for his policies, particularly on national security issues, was so low in Europe. Bush explained that Europeans didn’t take the 9/11 attacks seriously. “For Europe, September 11th was a moment. For us, it was a change of thinking.”
85 Europeans died in the attacks of September 11, 2001.
Bush added that “some people,” presumably Europeans who disagree with his policies, believe it’s “OK to condemn people to tyranny.” Watch it:
We’ve posted the transcript HERE.
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Funny I don’t hear Bush being too worried about tyranny in Sudan, North Korea, or China. I guess if you don’t have huge oil reserves then you can’t be a tyrant.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:24 amWould it be at all possible to have a person with less intelligence as our president? I think not!
June 21st, 2006 at 11:27 amdumbya should speak for himself.
9/11 changed the way I think about airline security. 9/11 didn’t make me want to restrict the wonderul freedoms and liberties I, as an American citizen have.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:29 am“…condemn people to tyranny.” Didn’t the US Supreme Court do that in the 2000 election?
50 Ways To Dump The Dubya
June 21st, 2006 at 11:33 amWhat. An. Asshole.
World, please accept my sincerest apologies for the unbelievable arrogance of this man. I promise, we’ll do a better job next time.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:35 amWhat is the total cost to humanity of having this man being president of the United States for 8 years? The mind reels.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:36 amThis is the main problem with republicans, they keep trying to make september 11th theirs. They cannot make it theirs, it is the country’s day where we realized the shit had hit the fan. 9/11 has turned from an American issue to a neo-con issue.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:38 amThat’s funny. I thought that it was the Bush administration that thought it was OK to condemn people to tyranny.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:38 amTerriffic, this is what I was talking about in my comment for the Think Fast AM post today.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:38 am#1 I agree with you. We should definetly have troops in North Korea and the Sudan. China would be impossible at this point. Anyways, we agree!!!
June 21st, 2006 at 11:38 amWho cares about Europe? Their just gonna be part of the Muslim world in 50 years anyways.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:39 amGeorge Bush is a lying war criminal. There is a special place reserved just for him in the lowest circle of Hell.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:41 amWhat else would one expect from Mr. Class?
June 21st, 2006 at 11:42 amWhat an embarrassment. New Yorkers must not “remember the lessons” because we think Bush is a failure for not capturing Bin Laden. The lesson Bush took: bludgeon political opponents with 9/11 fearmongering.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:42 amAnd I can not beleive Bush thinks most people have forgotten about 9/11, that more people forget about it as more time passes. What an asshole. For one, its obvious we’d never forget, but two, he mentions that damned date in almost every single speech!
June 21st, 2006 at 11:42 amshaking my head as i watch. this idiot is such a disaster. he can’t communicate, he’s defensive, he fails to grasp the greater logic of the debate at hand, he’s a simplton plain and simple and it reflects poorly on every single american.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:43 amWhat an embarassment….
June 21st, 2006 at 11:44 amThe stereotypical American in Europe…..
Let’s send Chimpy on more of these diplomatic junkets.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:45 amWhat an a$$hole! An arrogant a$$hole. The latest “ugly American.”
Change of thinking? LOL I do not see our borders secured, nor the ports either, so what change of thinking is the certified dummy Bush talking about anyways?
June 21st, 2006 at 11:46 amThe “lessons of 9/11″ broken record is skipping again. And another thing. Is Bush 41 one of those folks who “condemned people to tyranny” by not invading Iraq?
June 21st, 2006 at 11:46 amYeah. From a state of “thinking” to “not thinking.”
June 21st, 2006 at 11:47 amThere is no point in even discussing what comes out of this criminal’s mouth any longer. It is time for him to go.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:50 amPresident Bush reminds me of former Minnesota Governor Jesse “The Body” Ventura who, if forced to leave the talking points he had on cards in front of him, was without a clue. Stupid people say stupid things and really stupid people say really stupid things. The American people have known of Bush’s incompetence for a long time. The US and the world need this man to be a strong leader and he is simply not up to the task and it is a damn shame.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:50 amWell it is interesting that Bush is in Vienna, Austria, the place that launched Adolf Hitler into politics and eventual WWII, so maybe Bush sets the stage for WWIII soon?
June 21st, 2006 at 11:51 amAre Democrats for or against Democracy and Free Speech? If your for it, what is your game plan for Democracy and Free Speech in Iran, North Korea, Iraq, China, and the Sudan? Just curious.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:52 amWho cares about Europe? Their just gonna be part of the Muslim world in 50 years anyways.
Comment by squegeeboo — June 21, 2006 @ 11:39 am
Hmmm Squeege which angle should I take? I could say, “Why do you hate America so much” because you are implying a great Muslim victory in conquering Europe, which means the American efforts would have failed.
Or I could say, “If Muslims are gonna be that prevalent, maybe it’s a good idea to stop pissing them off”.
Or I could say “that’s an isolationist remark Squishy”.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:54 amhmmm – transparent government? open debate? encourage freedom in Iraq by destroying the country hmmmm????
June 21st, 2006 at 11:54 am…I promise, we’ll do a better job next time.
Comment by Zookeeper — June 21, 2006 @ 11:35 am
if only you COULD guarentee that!!! be careful – don’t make promises you may not be able to keep!
June 21st, 2006 at 11:54 amGood Morning boys and girls of the left. It’s a pleasure to be with you again today! I see you have your ANGRY hats on. I’ve got to say, you certainly do let our president get under your skin! Picture this: President George W. Bush wagging his finger at the press, saying “I’m going to say this one more time, I did not find weapons of mass destruction belonging to that man, Mr. Hussein! Any DNA, er WMD found on his blue suit is NOT mine!” Come on folks, cheer up. He only has a bit over two years left to serve, tough it out!
June 21st, 2006 at 11:55 amHow did the White House allow this arrogant imbecile to leave the oval office and travel to Europe without a script?? He is definitely lost without one. What a disgrace.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:55 amHey # 25, go back to hugging your Incurious George doll and leave foreign policy to the adults.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:56 am9/11 changed the president’s thinking from dry drunk crazy to cloud cuckoo land crazy!
Chimpage!
June 21st, 2006 at 11:56 amWas it just my download, or did Bush really stutter badly both times he said the word “tyranny?”
June 21st, 2006 at 11:56 am#25 RogerRoger Democracy is by definition “government of the people”. We can’t have a “game plan” to force it onto Iran, North Korea, Iraq, China, the Sudan, or anywhere else. Rather, right now I see the Democrats as those who are trying to protect the democracy of the U.S. Benjamin Franklin was asked what the founding fathers created and he responded “a democracy, if you can keep it” (a paraphrase). Let’s hope we can actually keep it.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:58 amroger the same could be asked of the republicans. Of course without massive oil stocks I suppose those countries are not nearly as interesting.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:58 amThis is probably one of the most callous things Bush could have said. Folks in Europe were deeply troubled by 9/11. We have since squandered that sentiment, several timess over.
June 21st, 2006 at 11:59 amIf your for it, what is your game plan for Democracy and Free Speech in Iran, North Korea, Iraq, China, and the Sudan? Just curious.
Comment by Roger_Roger — June 21, 2006 @ 11:52 am
Roger I would be happy if we could just have free speech in the US!!!
We are not the police of the world. The US fought in a revolutionary war a couple of centuries ago to overthrow tyranny. We can help other countries but we cannot do it for them!!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:00 pmPost 33 > Bush appears to be drinking the Bourbon Whiskey again > it shows on his face and his slured speech! Best well stocked liquer cabinet in the world is located in the White House, so too much temptation for a former alcoholic like Dubya Dunce Decider!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:01 pmRoger,
June 21st, 2006 at 12:02 pmI think we should leave Iran, North Korea, China and the Sudan alone. Look at the costly, bloody mess we have made in Iraq to bring them “Democracy and Free Speech” (while losing ours at home), or some such, since there weren’t WMDs.
So your saying your against those countries having Democracy? Odd
June 21st, 2006 at 12:02 pmAmerica reacted to terrorism by giving in to fear. Americans were willing to give up freedoms they espouse, but don’t really value. Willing to change the way they live, in order to gain a sense of security but in reality no real security.
Europe, with its experience of the IRA, basques etc. etc. reacted with resolve . no one was willing to give in to fear and change their way of life. They just checked bags at airports more closely.
Although George Bush is the Amerrican leader, Americans should remember that in a democracy you usually get the government you deserve. Wake up and smell the coffee before you lose everything to the corporations, and their enablers in your government. You have been governed by fear mongers to the advantage of the incredibly rich and no one else.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:02 pmummm, didn’t a French newspaper (Paris Match?) run a headline the day after 9/11 saying “We are All Americans Now”? I think everyone took 9/11 seriously. Bush squandered an opportunity to lead a united world in an effective fight against the people who did 9/11, instead choosing to invade Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:02 pmThe problem is that it SHOULDN’T have been a change in thinking for anyone. It’s not like terrorism was invented on 9/11 and nobody had ever known about it before then. Bush uses this “change in thinking” speaking point and the “pre-9/11 mindset” speaking point to enact his neo-con policy of fascism and oppression and control.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:03 pmComment by rickd — June 21, 2006
Care to go to all the funerals in the next two years and tell the mourners what you just said?
June 21st, 2006 at 12:04 pm24 – WWIII has occurred already. US won cold war over USSR. We’re now in WWIV (Extremist Islamists vs non-extreme Islamists).
June 21st, 2006 at 12:04 pm#25 Actually Clinton was doing a decent job of opening up N. Korean society with trade and cultural exchanges. Then Bush swaggered in with his tough talk which accomplished nothing except to make N. Korea close itself off to the world again.
And that nuclear deal Republicans like to bash? Bush is now offering the same deal to Iran.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:04 pmFunny, Spain was attacked on 3/11, yet they managed to avoid invading a Middle Eastern country.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:06 pm38 – Jay, did you watch the video? Did he stutter on the word “tyranny?”
June 21st, 2006 at 12:06 pm#45 If it’s WWIV then every able-bodied man should be signing up right now.
Oh, we’re not? What’s the matter, don’t have a declaration of war from Congress? Oh, we don’t? Then what exactly do you mean by “war?”
June 21st, 2006 at 12:06 pmHow could anyone forget September the 11th when this f’ing dickwad keeps repeating & repeating & repeating it like a mantra? Sheesh…
June 21st, 2006 at 12:06 pmSomeone, please, give our President a drink. Maybe his brain cells need alcohol to be productive again!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:07 pmI refused to watch the news conference because I knew he would be an embarassment. Judging by the above comments, it was worst than even I expected.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:07 pmClinton did wonders in North Korea. He gave them tons of “stuff” so they wouldn’t create Nukes or Fire ICBM’s. I am glad that policy worked really well! Oh wait :(
June 21st, 2006 at 12:07 pmWho cares about Europe? Their just gonna be part of the Muslim world in 50 years anyways.
Comment by squegeeboo — June 21, 2006 @ 11:39 am
The ignorance is just astounding. The Muslim world (MOORS) already did that – CENTURIES AGO!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:08 pm“Are Democrats for or against Democracy and Free Speech? If your for it, what is your game plan for Democracy and Free Speech in Iran, North Korea, Iraq, China, and the Sudan? Just curious.”
what is Bush’s plan for democracy and free speech in these countries? Our govt has planted propoganda in the Iraqi media. We rail against Al Jazeera and at one point shut down media we disagreed with in Iraq.
We’re doing zippo in the other countries.
Democrats are not the anti-Christ. We are mad as hell because we believe our country has deviated from the grand principles that led to the founding of this nation. Two such grand principles are democracy and free speech. We’re 100% in favor. The fact that many of us think the war in Iraq was begun as a fraud and is now a failure doesn’t mean we like dictatorship. It would have been a lot more honest if Bush had said “let’s go into Iraq because Saddam is a dictator”. He did give that as one of 25 make-up reasons. But the initial reasons given for attacking Iraq were WMD that didn’t exist, drone planes capable of launching chemical attacks on the US that also didn’t exist, and trumped connections between Iraq and 9/11.
Democrats don’t like being lied to. I would love to see a plan for democracy and free speech everywhere. I don’t think anyone knows how to bring it to the countries you mentioned…
June 21st, 2006 at 12:09 pmHope you guys watched Frontline lastnight.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:09 pmBush still loves to knock down those unidentifiable strawmen. When he says “Some people say” or words to that effect, you know it’s coming. I hope that one day someone will ask him to name names. For example, for this topic, someone should ask Bush, “who says it’s OK to condemn people to tyranny?”
June 21st, 2006 at 12:10 pmSo your saying your against those countries having Democracy? Odd
Comment by Roger_Roger — June 21, 2006 @ 12:02 pm
Nice try. They can have a democracy if that is what THEY want. It must be THEIR decision, not ours. We do not have the right to force our political beliefs on anyone!!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:11 pm“Are Democrats for or against Democracy and Free Speech? If your for it, what is your game plan for Democracy and Free Speech in Iran, North Korea, Iraq, China, and the Sudan? Just curious.”
what is Bush’s plan for democracy and free speech in these countries? Our govt has planted propoganda in the Iraqi media. We rail against Al Jazeera and at one point shut down media we disagreed with in Iraq. We’re doing zippo in the other countries you mentioned.
What is Bush’s plan for free speech in the US? His attorney general recently suggested prosecuting reporters. His administration has planted phony news stories in our own media. The GAO found that the Bush admin had disseminated propaganda. The Bush admin paid $ (our $) to Armstrong Williams and other props who wrote stories supporting the administration that were dishonestly passed off as freely given opinions.
Democrats are not the anti-Christ. We are mad as hell because we believe our country has deviated from the grand principles that led to the founding of this nation. Two such grand principles are democracy and free speech. We’re 100% in favor. The fact that many of us think the war in Iraq was begun as a fraud and is now a failure doesn’t mean we like dictatorship. It would have been a lot more honest if Bush had said “let’s go into Iraq because Saddam is a dictator”. He did give that as one of 25 make-up reasons. But the initial reasons given for attacking Iraq were WMD that didn’t exist, drone planes capable of launching chemical attacks on the US that also didn’t exist, and trumped connections between Iraq and 9/11.
Democrats don’t like being lied to. I would love to see a plan for democracy and free speech everywhere. I don’t think anyone knows how to bring it to the countries you mentioned…
June 21st, 2006 at 12:12 pmAmerica did not elect this idiot. He was foisted on us by the U.S. Supreme Court in 2000 and by the balloting fraud in Ohio in 2004.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:13 pmJune 21st, 2006 at 12:15 pm
Who claims this MF? SOB is definitely not from Texas, u have to be born and raised in this state to be a Texan….This Dip Shit is a complete Asshole
A no good Drunken, Drugged up Asshole, who doesn’t know his elbow from an asshole!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:15 pm#29 – Actually, it’s approximately 944 days before Pres. Bush is shown the door and told “Don’t let it hit you where the good Lord split you!”
He’ll be gone as of 20 January 2009, and it won’t be a day too soon!
I had a friend tell me they should repeal the 22′nd amendment and let Pres. Bush run again. I said “Sure, why not! Of course, that would mean Fmr. Pres. Clinton could run again, and I think you know who would win that one. . .”
For some reason, he didn’t want to talk about that anymore. I wonder why? ;-)
By the way, you’re not one of those “We must love Pres. Bush no matter what he does!” kinda Republicans, are you? Even though we don’t agree on much, I’ve always believed you thought for yourself and didn’t parrot the “party line”. Am I wrong?
June 21st, 2006 at 12:15 pm“Clinton did wonders in North Korea. He gave them tons of “stuff†so they wouldn’t create Nukes or Fire ICBM’s. I am glad that policy worked really well! Oh wait :( ”
Bush has been in office for more than five years now. He named N Korea as part of the Axis of Evil 4 years ago. What exactly has Bush done about N Korea? I don’t agree that Clinton’s policy failed, but leaving that aside for the moment, what happened to the party of personal responsibility? at what point will you forget about Clinton and recognize that Bush has had a lot of time to do something about N Korea and other issues. The situation is N Korea has gotten worse, not better under Bush. N Korea is threatening to test a long range missile apparently capable of hitting the west coast of our country. This has happened on Bush’s watch. I hope he will do something about it, but so far he hasn’t.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:16 pm#55 YOu don’t like to be lied to? Clinton lied and you guys still love him
#58 Do you honestly believe that the people in those countries don’t want Democracy? Everyone want democracy, EVERYONE expect those in power.
To All: I never said the republicans are correct. They are definetly not correct. They haven’t done much to promote democracy in those countries either. It is just sad to see the opposition party scream about the fact we are doing nothing in those countries while they also wouldn’t do anything. I want a party that not only talks a big game, but also acts on what it says. Currently the Democrats are calling the kettle black. Big Deal!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:16 pmTivo’d Frontline, can’t wait to watch it tonight…Another SOB asshole…I am conviced that these two are the devil incarnate…
June 21st, 2006 at 12:18 pm#42
Yes! From Wikipedia:
The attacks had major global political ramifications. They were denounced by mainstream media and governments worldwide, with the headline of Paris, France’s Le Monde newspaper summing up the international mood of sympathy: “We Are All Americans” (Nous sommes tous Américains).
June 21st, 2006 at 12:19 pm#62 – He’s the only member of the Bush family that talks with a Texan accent, and he was born in Connecticut! Ha! I bet that burns his buns on a daily basis!
I think there’s a difference between “True Texan” and “Texan by adoption”. I was stung by a scorpion when I liven in San Antonio and was told that I was adopted by Texas wildlife for that! ;-)
Now that I live near Austin, I realize that not every Texans is all hat and no cattle. ;-)
June 21st, 2006 at 12:19 pm“Are Democrats for or against Democracy and Free Speech? If your for it, what is your game plan for Democracy and Free Speech in Iran, North Korea, Iraq, China, and the Sudan? Just curious.â€
Of course we are. But FORCING it will not make it happen. EDUCATION, LEADING BY EXAMPLE, FEEDING THE HUNGRY – PEACE and HUMANITY – this is what will bring upon CHANGE.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:20 pmWho the hell claims this MoFo? This SOB is not a Texan, not born or raised here, SOB should have kept on going South…then he would have been the one crossing the border CS, dirtbag.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:20 pmI think what he means is, after he planned and carried out 9/11 for the US corporations and the Israeli government, he’s since realised he had to change his thinking as it was unlikely he would get away with such a crime again – when the truth is out you’ll have no option but to hang him
June 21st, 2006 at 12:23 pmAccording to Frontline, General Tommy Franks personally and privately warned the Senate that resources were being deployed from Afghanistan to prepare for Iraq-while they had Osama in their sites at Tora Bora.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:24 pmFranks denies it now.
you asked: Was it just my download, or did Bush really stutter badly both times he said the word “tyranny?â€
Well, not only did I hear the same thing but the sentences in which he used it he said that he did not think we should condemn tyranny. Did I hear that right?
June 21st, 2006 at 12:24 pmDiplomacy, the Republican Way!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:26 pmTha crap that comes out of this Dip Shit, I mean his own mother said in not so many words that he was the stupidest of the bunch…scary!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:26 pm#29, you have inspired my first ever response to a blog entry. You ended with “Come on folks, cheer up. He only has a bit over two years left to serve, tough it out!”
June 21st, 2006 at 12:27 pmWhich “folks” are you asking to cheer up and tough it out? Between now and the end of his term how many people will die? Don’t you have any feelings for your fellow countrymen and countrywomen and their families? Are you asking them, in advance, to cheer up and tough it out? Seriously?
What an absolute embarrassment Chimpy McFlightsuit is.
The greatest nation in the world being run into the ground by this ignoramus.
Europe, please pay no attention to this clown.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:28 pmHe does not speak for the majority of the US.
Roger, Roger combat dodger.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:28 pmWhen will someone with some balls say that this spreading of democracy is horse-pucky. Look back in history and you can see that the only successful route to a democratic nation is from within. Anytime outside forces tried to “liberate” and “give freedom” to others is has either ended in disaster or reverted back to a close resemblance of its former self. Easy analogy. If I am in a sports bar and a guy is watching basketball and I am watching hockey and I tell him how horrible basketball is and how great hockey is and I try to get him to watch it with me….he probably will watch basketball. He wants to cause he does not care to change himself. Now if they start ruining basketball only allowing midgets to play the game then maybe he will get disgusted with the game and realize that it is not what he wants to watch. Then he may choose hockey. Point is a peopl can’t be forced to accept an outside idealology. It has to take root from within their own society. This talk of spreading democracy is just blabber and fodder for the fools who believe in the rightousness of Bush.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:29 pmcan you all believe that Dallas is actually wanting his stupid library (SMU even “stole” land from elderly living behind the school in a retirment community)….Highly recommend Kitty Kelly’s book on this “Bush Crime Family” you don’t see anybody disputing anything that is said in that book…not even the right wing zealots on FOX
June 21st, 2006 at 12:30 pmwhat a frigging moron…wow!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:30 pm#65 RogerRoger
June 21st, 2006 at 12:30 pmEVERYBODY wants democracy? When I hear any absolute, I have my doubts. Not everyone wants democracy, many people in the world want a king or dictator to blindly follow rather than think for themselves and take responsibility for their collective decisions. We only have to look in a mirror for a prime example.
This is the Decider.Imagine,he decides what is best for the whole wide world.Scary!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:31 pmIs anyone yet bone tired of Bush crying “9/11?” It’s a lie that fits all for that pointy headed of an administration of his. He sucks on it over and over and over like the bloated and decrepit maggot he is. Someone should tell anyone that George W. Bush is the ultimate Big Fat Liar and should have a cork shove on that double dealing mouth of his. Of all of his selling America down the river tactics 9/11 is the most insulting.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:32 pmDems…. “Revenge is a dish best serve cold”, GET OUT THE VOTE PLEASE!!!!!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:34 pmIt is just sad to see the opposition party scream about the fact we are doing nothing in those countries while they also wouldn’t do anything.
Comment by Roger_Roger — June 21, 2006 @ 12:16 pm
Hey! Bush is the one that wants to spread freedom across the Mid East, even if it means invading a country that posed no threat to the U.S. and toppling a dictator. Two of his 6 reasons for invading Iraq, as listed previously by ThinkProgress:
#3: Free the Iraqi people.
#5: Develop a free Iraq.
We’re not screaming because he is doing nothing for the other countries. All we’re saying is, if you think it’s a fine idea and you support Bush 110%, why is he ignoring some of the other countries? Which country do you pick next? Iran looks to be ripe.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:36 pm#23 Jesse is a goddam genius compared to this idiot.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:37 pmIf I was a Republican, I would be so embarrassed that this illiterate, stuttering idiot is representing not only our country, but also their party. Thank God I’m not a Republican, though I am embarrased for the country.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:37 pmEven Arafat stuttered with fear and respect for America after 911. Everyone did.
We didn’t attack our attacker after 911. We forgot about them. We looked for links to Iraq and used 911 as an excuse to nation build.
Americans wanted to bust heads. Instead, our soldiers babysit contractors and die for them.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:37 pmWhat would George have to talk about if it weren’t for 9/11? NOTHING
June 21st, 2006 at 12:38 pmAustria’s Der Standard alleges that Mr. Bush is the worst President of the last 100 years. I take exception with that outrageous opinion. He is the worst President in American history.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:41 pm“#55 YOu don’t like to be lied to? Clinton lied and you guys still love him” Comment by Roger_Roger
Clinton’s lie was a personal matter that should have been between him and Hillary. He did not lie and get us into an unnecessary war that’s killed and maimed thousands of Americans and Iraqis.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:42 pmI am very ashamed that he presumes to represent the American people and now seems to think he speaks for Europeans when he says, “For Europeans, 9/11 was just a moment.” He squandered the out pouring of good will after 9/11 and is still linking his damn war in Iraq to the invisible ties of 9/11.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:43 pmThat should read:
24 – WWIII has occurred already. US thinks it won cold war over USSR. We’re now in WWIV (Extremist Islamists vs Extremist Christians).
June 21st, 2006 at 12:44 pmSometimes all you can do is revel in the fact that we have the support of the rest of the world in condemnation of bush, his policies, his advisors, his keepers.
This man is disgusting in every sense. Completely beyond redemption. Parole denied!
Why is Europe not threatening bush and his clan with arrest if they set foot on their soils? Why is the rest of the world not demanding war crimes trials?
Are they just waiting for their slice of middle east pie?
Are Europeans as cowed by plutocracy as the rest of us?
June 21st, 2006 at 12:44 pmjust reading the transcript… what is “universality of freedom”???
June 21st, 2006 at 12:45 pmBush must have come in his pants when he heard about the 9/11 attacks. He would have been a one term, soon forgotten president if hadn’t occured.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:46 pmPut Up or Shut Up: Saddam Hussein & 9/11
If the right, the GOP, and in particular President Bush think that Saddam Hussein was in any way connected to the attack of 9/11 then charge him as a co-conspirator and prove the case in court. If there is no evidence of such a connection, then all of the above should shut up after publicly admitting there is absolutely no connection.
And, please, please, explain to all the troops in Iraq why they are there, and that sadly it has nothing to do with the events of 9/11.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:47 pmWhy do you think “The Coalition of the Willing” is now the “Coalition of the Bailing” they want no part of this freaking liar and the disaster this SOB has created. SOB will leave office with his Dip Shit croanies full of ill gotten money/blood stained money in their pockets and they don’t give a dog shit about you or anybody else!
I hope they burn in hell for what they have done!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:47 pm9/12, of course!
June 21st, 2006 at 12:47 pm
One positive note.
Bush boy did set the Guinness Book record for the longest continuous smirk.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:49 pmYES I WATCHED FRONTLINE LAST NIGHT, IT WAS VERY GOOD STUFF.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:49 pmThis is the asshole that said “I don’t concern myself with where Bin Laden is” WHAT A SOB, F’ing republicans will eat Bushe’s shit when presented on a platter
June 21st, 2006 at 12:51 pm#98 Bill
Hear! Hear!
#55 RogerRoger
June 21st, 2006 at 12:52 pmDon’t forget that there were Democrats who chasitised Clinton for his behavior which hurt the country only because it was a distraction and an embarrassment. I wish there were some Republicans who would have the same respect for America to challenge Bush on even more important matters.
#82 You are right, there is a tiny tiny minority that wants communism and dictatorships, but we have to agree that the majority of people in any country in the world wants democracy. I would love to see the US take a leading role to help these countries overthrow dictators and communist regeims.
Remember, only 1 country in the history of the world that was a democracy has preemtively attacked someone (The US). How many Dictatorships and Communists have attacked someone? That alone should tell us how important democracy is.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:53 pmThe President seems to have forgotten what Europe did in response to 9/11. For the first and only time in NATO’s history all of the NATO members, which includes most European countries, voted to take military action outside of Europe under Nato’s mutual self defense provisions. The Europeans willingly went to war with us in Afghanistan against the perpetrators of 9/11 and their supporters – al Qaeda and the Taliban. They are still there with us.
But unlike our President, they understood who the enemy was and who it wasn’t.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:54 pmFor a democracy to flourish one must have an educated populace that can make make informed political decisions, accruate 3rd party reporting form a 4th estate press and the will of the people to preserve their own democracy. Not only do Iraq and Afghanistan have none of the things but neither does America.
I think he did say that we should not condemn tyranny. To condemn tyrannyy would be to criticize his presidency.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:57 pmClose. I went to cnn.com and downloaded the video directly from their site:
TRANSCRIPT: Some people say, It’s OK to condemn people to tyranny. I don’t believe it’s OK to condemn people to tyranny, particularly those of us who live in the free societies.
VIDEO: Some people say, It’s OK to condemn people for t-t-t-tyranny. I don’t believe it’s OK to condemn people for t-t-t-tyranny, particularly those of us who live in the free societies.
The metamessage is clear. WE ARE LIVING IN A TYRANNY. We just haven’t realized fully the situation we are in.
A lion was drugged one day and transported the middle of an enclosed wildlife preserve. Upon awakening, the lion still believed himself to be in the wild. Only upon coming across the fence did the lion realize he was caged.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:58 pmRemember, only 1 country in the history of the world that was a democracy has preemtively attacked someone (The US). How many Dictatorships and Communists have attacked someone? That alone should tell us how important democracy is.
Comment by Roger_Roger — June 21, 2006 @ 12:53 pm
WOW I don’t think there’s greater proof of how we might be losing our democracy.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:58 pmJohn Ashcroft changed his thinking before 911; in fact, it was in June of 2001. He began to fly charter instead of commercial in July of 2001. Something was in the wind already.
Since he is in Austria, maybe he could learn something about the Austrian economics.
June 21st, 2006 at 12:58 pmA change of thinking?
More like we’ll say it caused a change of thinking when all along our thinking was “we need a tramatizing event like Pearl Harbor so we have an excuse to attack Iraq and control the oil in the Middle East and clamp down on civil rights at home.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:01 pmDoh use should read US sorry for the typo.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:03 pmEurope took 9/11 serioulsy. They just do not take Dubya seriously
June 21st, 2006 at 1:05 pmEffing Ahole – Go away please!
June 21st, 2006 at 1:08 pmThe metamessage is clear. WE ARE LIVING IN A TYRANNY. We just haven’t realized fully the situation we are in.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
Thanks for doing that Briseadh na Faire, I couldn’t look at the video at work. Just the fact that he stumbles so badly over the word “tyranny,” speaks volumes to me. I alternate between watching GWB’s aggressive body language during his speeches on “mute,” or closing my eyes and listening to him speak. I get his message more clearly that way, and I’m sure it’s not the message he’s meaning to convey.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:09 pmwhy the hell doesn’t he send his dip shit daughters to Iraq..let them enlist, just like our troops…you know he says support the troops, well, he certainly is not doing his share here..cutting back on their healthcare alone is a kicking them while down
June 21st, 2006 at 1:10 pmWhat an embarrassment. No wonder the world hates us.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:10 pmWhich “folks†are you asking to cheer up and tough it out? Between now and the end of his term how many people will die? Don’t you have any feelings for your fellow countrymen and countrywomen and their families?
Comment by JPBoulder — June 21, 2006 @ 12:27 pm
These Bushwackers are kidding themselves. The Democrats are not the only ones being screwed. All Americans are. But his supporters? He spits in their faces, and they think it’s raining!!!
June 21st, 2006 at 1:13 pmAn interesting story over at Democratic Underground, I am suprised TP hasn’t posted about this yet.
http://journals.democraticunderground.com/BobcatJH/96
a good insight into how the republicans support our troops.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:15 pm#25: Democracy and free speech are not spread at the point of a gun.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:15 pmSpoken like a true fascist.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:17 pmI note all of the references to republicans, democrats, liberals and conservatives. Could we please refrain from using those terms that no longer carry any accurate semantic meaning. Instead, lets begin using the terms “CORPORITIST” and “POPULIST.”
Those terms introduce definitive meaning into what is actually going on in US politics, and accurately reframes the debate outside of the right wing knee jerk talking and bashing points.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:19 pmI thought it was absurd for people to think that we’re more dangerous than Iran. I – you know, it’s – we’re a transparent democracy. People know exactly what’s on our mind. We debate things in the open. We’ve got a legislative process that’s active.
Look how we’ve destabilized the region. Transparent democracy? How about over 700 signing statements and the NSA phone number data base. and thgis legislature as been the least inactive in 50 years and are probably the worst ever in terms of checks and balances.
Look, people didn’t agree with my decision on Iraq. And I understand that. For Europe, September the 11th was a moment; for us it was a change of thinking. I vowed to the American people I would do everything I could to defend our people, and will. I fully understood that the longer we got away from September the 11th, more people would forget the lessons of September the 11th.
Can we mention it some more?
I believe in the universality of freedom. If you are in the top 1% financial demographics. Than I don’t even care what country you are from.Some don’t. Rumsfeld – Cheney
Did I say that I sure miss wearing the wire that I wore in the debates? Because now I have to try and formulate a sentence.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:20 pmAustria, in this country, 64% dont like your policy for peace
In the United kingdom, your ally, there are more citizens who believe that the United States policy under your leadership is helping to destabilize the world than Iran.
If the UK your allies think like this then I can safely say even more in the world than i ever imagined must think America is destabilizing the world – AND THEY ARE RIGHT
June 21st, 2006 at 1:22 pmRemember, only 1 country in the history of the world that was a democracy has preemtively attacked someone (The US).
Not true.
The ancient democratic city-state of Athens did this also. They democratically voted to pre-emptively attack across the Mediterraneans Sea to address a perceived threat. It did, however, lead to the destruction of their fleet and the downfall of their society which, in its weakened state, was sacked by the Spartans shortly thereafter.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:25 pmThe Associated Press caught Bush defacing American flags in 2003. The Democrats need to offer an amendment to the “flag burning amendment” that says that writing on the flag is also illegal. Then let the Republicans decide if they’re going to vote that George Bush defaced the flag, or whether they’re going to defend defacing the flag.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:26 pm55 YOu don’t like to be lied to? Clinton lied and you guys still love him
you are making a big assumption. I never said I “love” Clinton. I do prefer him to Bush. I do think there’s a big difference between lying about a BJ and lying about reasons for going to war. Clinton seems to be a quite flawed individual. I do think there were some really good things about his presidency see e.g. balancing the budget, achieiving economic growth. But I don’t love him–he’s not my favorite politician and I have plenty of beefs with him.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:26 pmGod, he is such an idiot.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:27 pm[...] From Think Progress Today, President Bush held a press conference in Vienna, Austria as part of a diplomatic visit to Europe. He was asked by a member of the press why approval for his policies, particularly on national security issues, was so low in Europe. Bush explained that Europeans didn’t take the 9/11 attacks seriously. “For Europe, September 11th was a moment. For us, it was a change of thinking.†[...]
June 21st, 2006 at 1:28 pm9/11 changed the way I think about Presidents.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:29 pm#25, what a ridiculous question! Of course Democrats are for free speech. Our game plan for those countries, uhhh, well, I can tell you it doesn’t involve bombs or pseudo-cowboy rhetoric.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:32 pmWell, at least he didn’t say…
“For Europe, September 11th was just a number.”
June 21st, 2006 at 1:36 pmIt didn’t change a god damn thing. The neocons already had the agenda written and planned pre-9/11. All they needed was a new pearl harbor to push the “go” button and go on with their plan. They certainly got their new pearl harbor… wouldn’t surprise me one bit if another on is in the plans.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:38 pmHey Jules, in answer to your question…..only if you were elected!!!
June 21st, 2006 at 1:41 pmReasoning with the man is impossible. Threatening him is forbidden by law. Impeaching him (or even censuring him) seems difficult to accomplish given the make-up of Congress.
However, one can still pray — and a curse is only a negative prayer, so I offer this one:
May his tongue blacken and fall from his mouth, may his limbs wither and become a burden to him, may his stomach feed on his liver, and may birds of prey nest in his hair!
I am told by an elderly Turkish friend that God listens to and grants human prayers during only one second in each 24 hours. I have accordingly put together a group of friends who are covering the 24 hours in shifts. Please feel free to join in.
NSA, eat your heart out!
June 21st, 2006 at 1:50 pmin the clip – Your Ally the Uk , more people think America is a bigger threat to world security than Iran
here here I agree
Bush is set to pledge at the summit in Vienna on Wednesday that the United States will respect human rights in his “war on terror”, according to the draft of a final summit statement.
BULLSHIT BUSH
June 21st, 2006 at 1:56 pmEveryday that man opens his mouth, I become more and more embarrassed that I live in a country that would elect him.
I know he stole the elections, but still – it was close enough to steal. And it’s those millions of people who voted for him in 2004 who make me ashamed that they live in a country founded on honor and morality and intelllect.
Appalling. Absolutely appalling.
June 21st, 2006 at 1:57 pmPleae god don’t have Hilary, Gore, or Kerry as your canidate in 08. I really want to vote for a democrat, but having any of those 3 run today would just hand the Repugs victory once again. The repugs don’t win, they get the elections handed to them.
Obama would be an excellent choice for the Dems. He would sweep the elections IMO.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:00 pm“In Europe, 9/11 was only a day…”
Yeah, specially for us in Spain and the UK.
BASTARD!
June 21st, 2006 at 2:01 pm9-11 did not inspire a change of thinking for the criminal Bush administration–it presented an opportunity.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:02 pmi just read this on another thread… can anyone explain?
Friggin’ liberal wack jobs keep getting us killed by the bushel. If they had stopped hitler in 1936, 50 million people wouldn’t have had to die. I wonder how many liberalism is going to murder by negligence and blind idealism and pacifism this time!
specifically the “they” – who is they? liberal wack jobs? …the whole thing is confusing… the latest meme? whew! it hurts the mind that some people are so stoopid…
June 21st, 2006 at 2:03 pmThe man cannot speak without either stating the obvious as if he’s still talking to that grade school class he visited on 9/11 or without sounding like an absolute idiot. (Or, in most cases, both.) He has NO CLUE how the rest of the world sees the U.S. The world used to see us as hope for democracy and human rights – albeit with plenty of problems; he sees the world as a “focus group.” He’s the epitome of the arrogant “Ugly Americans” that Europeans hate.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:03 pmBASTARD!
Comment by Evil Spaniard
I’m SO sorry, Evil. I cringe every time that idiot opens his mouth. He is obnoxious and unteachable.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:05 pm#141 – katy, I wouldn’t even try…people like that cannot be helped.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:07 pmFor Bush, Europe’s collective heartfelt response was just a moment.
#98 Put Up or Shut Up: Saddam Hussein & 9/11
by Bill
Good point Bill. In fact, since Rove was ‘vindicated’ by not being charged by Fitzgerald, doesn’t that also mean that Saddam has been vindicated of 9/11 conspiracy connections?
#97 Bush must have come in his pants
by Krazny
Actually, I believe it was Cheney, Rumsfeld, and the PNACurbators who painted their panties. They had to spoon feed Bush on the opportunities that opened up for them.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:07 pmKaty,
when the trolls start equating the time before WWII with the current fight against extremists. They generally neglect to mention the prevailing mood in europe before the start of the war. Specifically that Europe appeased hitler until his invasion of France in 1939, because the didn’t want a repeat of WWI.
I am glad that the US didn’t decide to invade Thailand after we were attacked by Japan. If Bush had been in charge then, we most likely would have.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:08 pmWe lock up enemy combatants, torture them and deny them access to attorneys. Then we throw away the key.
We invade Iraq and expose millions of innocents to terror beyond anyone’s imagining. We’ve replaced one tyrant with thousands.
We either support or ignore a handful of brutal dicatatorships around the world.
We spy on our own people. No warrants, no oversight, no checks or balances.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:10 pmThanks, Zoo, I know, specially now, after being a while around here, that all the USA people isn’t like him.
Anyways, this idiot thinks that everybody in the world buys his crap as he sells it in the USA. Well, it’s not true. Really, the Republican way of thinking is really strange to the rest of the world. We have right wingers, but many items in the basic ideology of Republicans is simply local, and can’t be easily extrapolated to other countries’ mindset. And, in plus, he thinks that he can talk to all Europe with one one (sutttering) voice. False. If, in one hand we are slow in become a more unite mentality in the UE, is because we are way different. And he, and his advisors, don’t understand, or can’t handle this reality (or many others).
June 21st, 2006 at 2:12 pmLet’s be fair. Europe has had plenty of experience that would have been helpful in dealing with the aftermath of 9/11. For example, the occupation of Iraq has a lot of parallels with the English occupation of Ireland:
William Sampson, 1817 ( http://www.rewinn.com/8003 )
June 21st, 2006 at 2:13 pmChange of Thinking = Letting the Terrorists win
I have never been a Bush Supporter, but I did agree with the best thing the man ever said which was within the first days following September 11th. He said that as difficult as it may seem America shoud go about its life as usual and not let the Terrorist change our Freedoms and way of life.
It is unfortunate that he has been the biggest proponent in allowing the Terrorist to do just that in every facet the Administration can get its grubby little hands on.
Our Government admitted defeat to the Terrorist with the passing of the “Patriot” Act.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:17 pmFor all of you who are complaining above, yes – he is incompetent, yes – he is a disaster, yes – he is an embarissment, yes – he is the first president since Roosevelt who could not travel openly anywhere in the world, yes – he is slowly destroying everything that our once great nation stood for and was respectd for worldwide but remember that roughly 50% of our intellegent Americans voted for him the SECOND time.
So when all is said and done, we got what we as a nation voted for. Now, watch the Supreme Court, for decades to come, to feel the true impact of this administration upon our constitution and freedoms.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:17 pmEurope is the world leader when it comes to economic policy, democracy, free speech, and free markets. OH WAIT, America is. Why we care what a nothing country like France or the rest of the nobody europe countries think is beyond me. What India, China, and Japan think is way more important as they actually have some power.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:19 pmAnd, R E Winn, the IRA has been active till 180 years later, thanks in part to the heavy handed policy of the UK. So much for rightists’ approach.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:20 pm“All right, you’ve covered your ass now.” (”W” to a CIA briefer who told him about the imminent possibility of a terror attack prior to 911). George can have it both ways, always, and he apparently continues to get away with it. I hope that the Europeans haven’t fallen for his line of BS. But I don’t hear much in the press to think otherwise, or we are just not getting the total picture.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:21 pmRoger Roger:
USA WAS. USA WAS.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:22 pmHey junior, just what exactly is a ‘change of thinking’?
June 21st, 2006 at 2:22 pmIs it anything like the ‘change of reason for invasion’?
Why we care what a nothing country like France or the rest of the nobody europe countries think is beyond me.
You’re right, in fact we should just invade their countries for showing disagreement with our Rogue Administration, you reckless Moron.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:24 pmWhat is really tragic about George Bush on the International stage is that he is saying exactly what is on the minds of the Ignorati who elected him in the first place.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:24 pmThis is what happens to cultures that values entertainment over information.
#151 roughly 50% of our intellegent Americans voted for him
by Steve
Let’s everybody try to remember — it was ~50% of the people who voted.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:25 pmWhy we care what a nothing country like France or the rest of the nobody europe countries think is beyond me.
Comment by Roger_Roger
I have a sneaky little feeling that there are quite a few things beyond you. Could probably fill a dump truck with those things….
June 21st, 2006 at 2:28 pmThe dumptruck is probably more appropriate for the things that aren’t beyond him.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:30 pmUnderestimating the EU will prove a costly mistake for the US.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:31 pmRoger, It’s obvoius that “power” is your only criterion. “Pretty narrow fella!”
June 21st, 2006 at 2:34 pmOf course Bush failed to mention that his recent disastrous meddling in Somalia resulted in strengthening the repressive Islamic regime’s hold over that country. Preposterously, Bush approved arming and supporting the same Somalian war lords who gunned down 18 U.S. soldiers and dragged U.S. military soldiers through the streets of Mogadishu after downing two Blackhawk helicopters in 1993.
The Bush Bootlickers continue to flay Bill Clinton for that disaster even though it was G. W. Bush’s father, G. H. W. Bush, who initially sent the troops to that country to capture the war lord leaders.
Yet, even today these same Bush Bootlickers have rat-holed themselves into repeating sheep-like bleatings like “Clinton cut and ran” from that fiasco.
So, G. W. Bush now issues his stunning accusation, “For Europe, September 11th was a moment. For us, it was a change of thinking.†Bush added, “some people,†presumably Europeans who disagree with his policies, believe it’s “OK to condemn people to tyranny.†This sounds like it came straight from Karl Rove’s play book of hatemongering and smears against Democrats and all those who disagree with Bush on any issue.
It’s time the Bush Bootlickers acknowledged the truth and the reversal of attitudes when G. W. Bush now supports the same militant, murderous group of war lords who slaughtered our military in Mogadishu. And it looks like in truth it is Bush who says it’s “OK to condemn people to tyranny” as he has been doing in Somalia.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:37 pmI love how the far left just tries to ridicule and talk down to anyone who doesn’t agree. That has worked well for you folks the last 30+ years. Oh wait, it has been over 30 years since a Democrat presidental canidate even got 50% of the vote. But you guys know what is best seeing as though you control the congress, oh wait. LOL.
How about stop with the ridicule and name calling and start by offering policy alternitives. Just bashing Bush and any Republican in general will just cost you another election
June 21st, 2006 at 2:37 pmIs the transparent form of government he’s talking about the rubber stamp of the resmuglipan controlled House and Senate? The same body that just stopped a bill to do proper oversight of the war profiteering by Halliburton and the like? Its astonishing that he can stand there and site 9/11 over and over, as if the terror that he brought on our nation from either negligence or intent (see project for a new Amercia) wasn’t bad enough, the last time he was in Europe, I believe, was for the Pope’s funeral, and he was BOOOED, at a funeral! We need an easy button to push and get our democracy back out of the hands of these criminals. And if you’re going to say that this man was legitimately elected, and voted for, you’re going to have to account for the criminal activities that RFK, Jr. is going to start law suits over. See Ohio and Florida for details.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:40 pmRoger_Roger–I appreciate seeing what you have to say, although I vehemently disagree. It’s not always fun to just interact with like-minded people. I hope you consider what people have been saying in response though.
For instance, you say “Europe is the world leader when it comes to economic policy, democracy, free speech, and free markets. OH WAIT, America is. Why we care what a nothing country like France or the rest of the nobody europe countries think is beyond me. What India, China, and Japan think is way more important as they actually have some power.”
I’m not sure why it has been so in vogue to dismiss France and Europe. About 300 million people live in the EU countries–roughly the same amount as in the US. The Euro has been stronger than the dollar over the last couple of years and the EU is certainly a key economic player. The real war on terror certainly involves Europe–there have been cells in European cities and European intelligence/police have important roles to play in rooting out terrorists in Hamburg or Madrid who might be planning attacks on the US and elsewhere.
Also, things can and do change. It is actually possible the US might not be the most powerful country in the world forever. It might be in our self interest to cultivate relationships with European countries.
Finally, it might have been a good idea for us to listen to the opinions of those in Europe who opposed war in Iraq, They were right–Saddam Hussein was not an imminent threat.
Dismissing Europe seems arrogant and short-sighted to me. A real war on Al Qaeda depends on strengthening alliances, not treating other countries like they don’t matter
June 21st, 2006 at 2:43 pm#165 – I hate to break it to you, but VPres. Gore got 50.01% of the popular vote.
Then again, the far right is very good at spinning the news they don’t like just because they can fool themselves most of the time.
It’s rather amusing that the Republicans didn’t put forth policy alternatives when they were the minority party from 1955 until 1995. I wonder why not? Why do you hold one standard for the Democrats and another for the Republicans?
June 21st, 2006 at 2:45 pmWell, if the 2,500 soldiers killled in Iraq are “just a number” then the people killed on 9/11 are just a number as well. Bush & co can’t cut it both ways.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:47 pmOh boo hoo hoo. The poor little republican is getting picked on. Oh wait. His party controls everything and he’s gloating over it and ridiculing the left. But he makes some good points. Oh wait. Didn’t Gore get half a MILLION more popular votes than Bush?
June 21st, 2006 at 2:47 pmJohn Lennon once said, “Everything
June 21st, 2006 at 2:49 pmis the opposite of what it appears to be.”
The “some people” Bush refers to are his own
cabinet.
#168 – I stand corrected. VPres. Gore got 48.4 percent of the popular vote.
Then again, Pres. Bush only got 47.9% of the popular vote in 2000, so I guess he could be called the “losing winner”.
Remember, it’s not the percentage of the popular vote that puts you in the White House, it’s the percentage of the electoral vote that does it.
If Pres. Clinton had been able to run against pres. bush (Jr.), we all know that “Slick Willie” would have beaten “The Decider” like a red-headed stepchild.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:50 pm“I love how the far left just tries to ridicule and talk down to anyone who doesn’t agree. That has worked well for you folks the last 30+ years. Oh wait, it has been over 30 years since a Democrat presidental canidate even got 50% of the vote. But you guys know what is best seeing as though you control the congress, oh wait. LOL.
How about stop with the ridicule and name calling and start by offering policy alternitives. Just bashing Bush and any Republican in general will just cost you another election ”
We’re not all interested in ridiculing and talking down (though I might note that your attitude toward European countries seems to involve some of both).
Democrats do have policy alternatives. They have been articulated. I’ll recap a few:
(1) Murtha’s plan to pull troops out of Iraq in 6 months, maintaining a force in the region that could respond in case of disaster
(2) fighting a real war on terror that focuses on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda
(3) changing from an economic policy that favors the wealthy and investment income to one that helps working families and does not penalize income earned from work–specific ideas: universal health care (or at the least expanded health coverage), raising the minimum wage, repealing tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the wealthy
What is very clear is that the current administration has failed. It has failed in Iraq. It has failed to get Bin Laden. It has failed to aggressively confront Al Qaeda, diverting resources to a country that did not attack us. It has failed in its economic policy, turning a surplus into a huge deficit, and the only thing to show for it is tax cuts for the wealthy. It has failed to produce job growth at the level seen during the Clinton years. It has failed to address a health care crisis that leaves 50 million Americans uninsured. It has failed to develop an energy policy that does anything but reward big oil companies. It has failed to address the aging of the baby boomer population (Bush’s Social Security plan did nothing to address this and was rejected by many Republicans(. It has disregarded the Constitution and federal statute through its secret warrantless spying program. It has dishonored us all through the events at Abu Ghraib, Bagram, Guantanamo Bay and Haditha–and it showed how little it cared about these atrocities by doing little or nothing to address them.
I have no idea what will happen this fall or in 2008. But winning an election does not vindicate failed policy. The Republicans are smart campaigners and do a good job of selling their failed program. I hope that will change. Whether it does or does not changes nothing about the failures I have described. Democrats have offered alternatives. Maybe they are not doign a good enough job of disseminating their ideas, but they are there.
June 21st, 2006 at 2:53 pm#173 – Good post!
I just wish the Republicans could articulate any kind of policy in Iraq other than “We’re gonna win!” “Win” what? “Win” more military deaths because we couldn’t secure the borders when we invaded? “Win” more contracts for Halliburton that they don’t successfully complete but still get paid for? “Win” more attacks in Afghanistan from the Taliban that we supposedly destroyed?
How about defining a few things, like:
1 – When you “we stand down as they stand up”, how many of them have already “stood up” after we’ve been there for over three years? Is “none” a number?
2 – When you say we’ll only stay as long as they want us to, why are you spending hundreds of millions in building permanent military bases?
3 – When you say “We have to fight them over there or fight them at home” are you saying that you’re too incompetent to keep “them” out of the US to begin with?
It never ceases to amaze me that the far-right doesn’t ever seem to notice the beam in their eye but they scream about the splinter in ours. Go figure.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:02 pmthanks Democratic Soldier
Your point is a good one–we don’t really need to be on the defensive about offering policy ideas when the current administration offers nothing but empty, meaningless slogans. As others have (and you) have pointed out “stay the course” and “let’s win” are not a plan. There is no policy in Iraq other than let’s stay indefinitely and anyone who says otherwise is a traitor.
I would welcome a real debate about Iraq–something that doesn’t involve chanting slogans and calling decorated veterans like Rep. Murtha (or anyone who questions current policy) a coward or a traitor. Until we get real debate, we will get more of the same, which, so far, has been 3 years of making our troops into targets. With Republicans controlling the White House and Congress, we are not likely to see real debate. This is immensely frustrating, to say the least.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:16 pmRR – how the hell could you know what policies alternatives the progressives offer – you refuse to read the truth.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:17 pmHow about stop with the ridicule and name calling and start by offering policy alternitives. Just bashing Bush and any Republican in general will just cost you another election
Comment by Roger_Roger
Yeah. That worked so well for Murtha. Whenever “policy alternatives” are offered, you wingnitz attack them, (and the people who offer them) regardles of what the alternatives are. Will you repudiate the Right’s slanderous talk as well? I ain’t holdin’ my breath.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:26 pmHow about stop with the ridicule
You can dish it out, but can’t take it? Perhaps you will learn something today.
I agree with eblair in that I appreciate what you have to say, but perhaps you can control the manner in which you do so, and in doing so may find a change in tone in the responses.
So, what do India, China and Japan think?
June 21st, 2006 at 3:28 pmAll of this 9/11 fear mongering rhetoric worked well days and weeks after 9/11, piggybacking on the nation’s flood of shock, anger and fear. However, it’s truly tired now. He has lost ground even among his own and his approval ratings down, he will and has tried anything to gather eroding support. It’s too bad more have not seen his transparency. The vast majority of Europeans and other nations have long ago. He’s a lying sack of shit along with his administrative advisors.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:37 pmRoger_Roger, responding to a much earlier post: yes Clinton lied and we love him, but remember we impeached him. If you want consistancy please keep that in mind.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:37 pma caller to randi rhodes just said that he thought that liberals are somehow funding the insurgency to benefit their motives… another new meme? whaaaa???
June 21st, 2006 at 3:40 pm2) fighting a real war on terror that focuses on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda
I must take exception to that one – we need to go further to even consider a peaceful solution, and that being fighting terror by shedding our dependence on oil.
FOLKS – IT’S ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT OIL AND DOMINATION. Cheney and his gang have an empire complex. THEY MUST HAVE CONTROL.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:42 pmOh, God! I guess he thinks if he keeps saying “transparent government” enough times, people will believe it. It’s almost humorous to see him talk to Europeans. He just can’t fathom that people in other countries are not as ignorant and brainwashed by pundits as Americans. Transparent government? Watch FRONTLINE’S “Dark Side” special on Dick Cheney.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:44 pm“So your saying your against those countries having Democracy? Odd ”
Comment by Roger_Roger
No, of course not. What are you saying? That you’re in favor of World Wars 3, 4, and 5? Shoud we have invaded the Soviet Union? Or did a go-slow approach work better? These are very complicated issues, but Bush is disasterously incompetent in his recklessness. It’s better not to start a war than start one and lose it. Even if that means living with tyranny for the time being.
Ultimately, the only solution is a World Government. But conservatives are violently opposed to the idea, either out of sheer arrogance or because they think it’s the anti-Christ or something.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:45 pm#165 “I love how the far left just tries to ridicule and talk down to anyone who doesn’t agree.”
What a joke! You just described the exact methods of the Rove-run Neocons, and even used them yourself.
Accuse the other guy of using your own methods, and repeat them over and over (you’ll probably get to that), until you get enough people believing you to accomplish a successful smear.
Anyone who disagrees with ths admistration gets called “unpatriotic”, or gets accused of “cutting and running”, or gets their classified identity revealed, or any one of hundreds of possible punishments, without any regard for the fore-father-given right to free speech in this country. It’s sickening.
And they’re keep on doing it right through 2008 – and Diebold will give them enough wins to keep control of Congress.
Someone said winning elections doesn’t validate failed policy – stealing elections and lying to create a war does the opposite.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:47 pmBush also said this to the EU:
“US President George W Bush has said he would like to close the US prison camp at Guantanamo Bay and send many detainees back to their home countries.
However, he said not all the inmates would be returned – some would need to be put on trial in the US because they were “cold-blooded killers”. ”
Closing Guantanamo? Trials?
I’d say this is pretty good news… unless he’s lying, of course.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5102528.stm
June 21st, 2006 at 3:50 pmJohn Kerry: Republican Iraq plan is “Lie and Die”
Kerry:…Stay the course is not a plan. And what this administration wants is to have a fake debate, as usual. There, there, you hear the drumbeat on every television show from every commentator, cut and run, cut and run, cut and run, cut and run. That’s their phrase.
They’ve found their three words, they love to do that, and they’re gonna try to make the elections in November a choice between “cut and run” or “stay the course.” That’s not the choice. My plan is not “cut and run.” Their plan is “lie and die.” And that’s what they’re doing…
June 21st, 2006 at 3:51 pmroger-roger: Gore is the best possible candidate. he was already elected and EVERYONE knows it. He’d get a huge sympathy following. And today he’s a stronger Democratic candidate than ever because the causes he has always espoused are now the most important causes in the world. Obama is a DLCer right down the line, no different than Hillary. I know, he’s my senator.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:54 pmbush and his “aw shucks” routine is OLD. he’s terribly unpolished and unprofessional not only as a speaker, but also as a person, and definitely as the leader of our country. his bravado on one hand and defensive behavior on the other, only serve to show what a simpleton he is. poor us.
June 21st, 2006 at 3:58 pmyou can’t polish a turd.
June 21st, 2006 at 4:05 pm“fighting a real war on terror that focuses on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda
I must take exception to that one – we need to go further to even consider a peaceful solution, and that being fighting terror by shedding our dependence on oil.
FOLKS – IT’S ALWAYS BEEN ABOUT OIL AND DOMINATION. Cheney and his gang have an empire complex. THEY MUST HAVE CONTROL. ”
I am a peaceful person and not an advocate of war. I do recognize the people who attacked us on 9/11–which did not include Saddam Hussein or anyone from Iraq–as a real threat. I have no problem with devoting resources to going after these people. Whether that means “war” in the traditional sense or not, I don’t know. Maybe I am being sloppy with my words — I was trying to build off the slogan of “war on terror: which has itself been sloppily used to include Iraq, which had nothing to do with 9/11 or any attack on the US of course
I am 100% for eliminating dependence on oil. Not to make myself out to be a saint. but I haven’t owned a car since 1993. I think it is sad when our VP scorns conservation of scarce energy resources as a “personal virtue” and when tax credits are given to businesses not buy gas guzzling SUVs. Bush recently acknowledged that we are addicted to oil, but he is not doing anything of substance to break that addiction.
We are in dire need of a real plan on this front. We need federal money for research into alternatives, we need tax credits for hybrid cars, we need elected officials who recognize the problem and are willing to do something about it other than holding secret meetings with their buddies in the oil business.
But Al Qaeda and dependence on oil are not the same problem, although there are areas of overlap (e.g. we wouldn’t have been in the Middle East establishing army bases but for our oil needs–not that this justified any attacks on us, but it provided Bin Laden with a ready excuse and slogan that appeals to some in the area–get the US off our holy land). I think we can do several things–we can aggressively target those who wish us harm while also recognizing our problem with oil and doing something about it and making clear to the Arab and Muslim world that our quarrel is with Bin Laden and his followers, not with them. We should have been doing this since 9/11. Instead we played into Bin Laden’s paranoid fantasies and gave him exactly what we wanted by invading Iraq–a way to rally people around the idea of driving America out of the homeland
June 21st, 2006 at 4:10 pm#173
(1) Murtha’s plan to pull troops out of Iraq in 6 months, maintaining a force in the region that could respond in case of disaster
(2) fighting a real war on terror that focuses on Bin Laden and Al Qaeda
(3) changing from an economic policy that favors the wealthy and investment income to one that helps working families and does not penalize income earned from work–specific ideas: universal health care (or at the least expanded health coverage), raising the minimum wage, repealing tax cuts that disproportionately benefit the wealthy
Now these are are least ideas. I would argue #1 since your own party can’t seem to agree on that (so why should I). Hell, most of the democrat congress doesn’t support Murtha’s plan.
#2 is a statement, but I want a plan. Bin Laden is still out there, but he sure hasn’t been able to attack us in the US. Hell, the letter we got off Zarwaqi even said that Al Queda was losing in Iraq. Seems like we are doing something good over there, but I am all ears for an even BETTER plan.
#3 This is were I think the Democrats can gain ground if they structure it right. Coming to the public and saying that they want to raise spending and cut taxes doesn’t sound good. Raising the minimum wage is a good idea however. Universal Health Care scares the hell out of me personally. I look at Europe and Canada and see the wealthy from there countries coming to America for treatment because our system is vastly superior to there. I would hate to see our system get gutted like theres. Then again, if the Democrats can prove that my Health care would be better and more efficeint by letting it become a beuracracy, I am all ears.
Discussing vaguely how you want to help to “poor” isn’t going to cut it either. You need a true plan that people can agree on. Wihtout one, it still sounds better to let business (or as you call the rich) grow our economy. This in turn provides jobs and cashflow. Investment income is extremely important to support. Without it, the “rich” won’t invest so vigoursly and the poor will be in a worse place. Again, provide a soild plan that you can prove will help America. Most of us look at our currently booming economy with a 4.6% unemployment rate and really can’t see how we can improve it much. The idea of fundamently changing it is very scary.
#167 I agree that we may not be the most powerful forever. Currently we are. To say we need to build friendships for the day we may not be the power is valid, but the same can be said for the europeans. Why are they not sucking up to us as we are superior to them RIGHT NOW. It seems odd to say we need to look for something that may never change while we can see the europeans as the old world. They should be the ones looking to work with us, not the other way around.
Again, I am not arguing to just argue. I truly think these are valid point that need to be addressed with true plans, not just statements.
June 21st, 2006 at 4:10 pm#192 Roger Roger
You raise some good points, although I have some issues with some of your points.
June 21st, 2006 at 4:26 pmDemocrats don’t want to automatically increase spending and raise taxes – that’s the conservatives’ cartoon version of Democrats. Conservatives also spend and tax (in that order, BTW). Universal Health Care is a good concept but would need to be carefully arranged, using information from other countries’ experience. Our current system is equally bureaucratic. I don’t get sucked into the black-white choices about business/labor/economy issues. I think capitalism, with its reliance on market forces and individual incentives, is the best economic system. But it’s human and, therefore, not perfect. We also need balancing controls and sometimes a “socialized” approach is better (fire and police. education. health care?). I agree that Democrats need specific plans but we need to have the political power first. Before that we need to stress values, priorities, and general approaches to set the stage for the plan.
Roger-Roger–I don’t have a good way to develop better plans than what I alluded to before. I did offer some very specific proposals, and I alluded to a specific proposal Murtha has put forth re: Iraq. How many Dems support it, I don’t know. They all should. So should Republicans, some of whom recognize that, sadly, the expedition in Iraq has become a disaster and a nightmare.
You say Bin Laden hasn’t been able to attack us here. I hope he never does, but I don’t think he or his followers are incapable of doing so. There have been attacks in London, Madrid, Beirut, Indonesia, and Egypt since 9/11. What makes the US different? I don’t see a distinction–I think we’ve been lucky, thankfully so. I am not sure what good we are doing in Iraq vis a vis Al Qaeda. Before we invaded, there were no terrorist attacks coming out of Iraq and no Americans were being killed by Iraqis. Since the invasion, 2500 Americans have died and Al Qaeda is using Iraq as a training ground and recruiting poster. We’ve been given 99 reasons why such and such an event is a turning point. The Zarqawi killing is just the latest. What’s happened since then? more killing, more explosions, more attacks on our troops. I would bet a lot of $ there will be no appreciable improvement in 6 months or 1 year. We can keep hoping, but we’ve seen what happened after past turning points–capture of Saddam, killing of his sons, elections, etc,
You criticize the European and Canadian systems and say people come here for care. Yeah, rich people do. I’m sure health care in the US is, as are many things, great for people with $. The fact that we have great doctors and great facilities does absolutely zero for the fifty million Americans without any health insurance. You say we can’t let health care become a bureaucracy–it already is. We spend a far greater % of our health care $ on overhead than other nations do–it goes to insurance companies’ bureacracy, not the govt, but it is bureaucracy just the same.
you don’t see how we can improve our economy much? I think most Americans would disagree. Stock market has been listless for years. New jobs being created don’t pay enough for families to live middle class lives. Median wages have been stagnant for 30 years. More people are unemployed now than 6 years ago. Rich people are doing great, middle class and working people are struggling.
The Europeans shouldn’t have to “suck up to us” as you put it. It’s not just about power. I think we can see other countries as equals without hurting ourselves–and I’d argue it would make things better for us in the world.
where is your “true plan” by the way? :)
June 21st, 2006 at 4:27 pmWho let him out?
June 21st, 2006 at 4:28 pmWhy are they not sucking up to us as we are superior to them RIGHT NOW.
It is called principle.
People have always and will continue to stand up for what they believe in. Sorry, welcome to the real world.
June 21st, 2006 at 4:38 pmI heard a caller on Randi Rhodes make an excellent point: If President Bush and the Republicans want to take credit for the fact that we haven’t been attacked since 9/11, then they also have to accept blame for the fact that we were attacked on 9/11. Can’t have it both ways. Either they’re responsible for both or for neither.
June 21st, 2006 at 4:45 pm#194 Eblair
I understand your point of view, but not completely. Our unemployment rate is lower then it was 6 years ago (4.6% is am amazing accomplishment). I am a middle class guy with a wife and 2 kids. We are doing great and my investments have done very well in the past year as have most. The stock market is truly booming which is amazing since Oil prices are so High (of course that should give you a hint into what to invest in: OIL).
To simply say that the new jobs don’t pay enough is invalid. If business needs more employees, they will pay the amount it takes to get an employee (and no more). If they pay to little, people won’t take the job and the company will raise the amount they will pay.
You are correct that 50 million don’t have health care. You are incorrect to say they don’t get care. My brother is an Doctor and he knows first hand that we treat them regardless of insurance status. If we regulate the health market will pharmiceutical companies reduce there research of new drugs? Without a good profit outlook they certainly will (that scares alot of us). Will I have to wait longer to see a doctor under government health care? That also scares me. Will new treatments come to the market slower if the government takes control? Anything that the free market doesn’t control frankly scares me.
Saying that education is already a government program is proof that things can go wrong. We pay more for our educational system that any country in the world and it still sucks. Children that go to private school and universities are vastly more educated. When I look at that system, I would say that government has failed and we should give the educational system back to the free market not the reverse. I could be wrong however.
On Iraq. Murtha may be loud, but most ALL his democrat counterparts don’t agree with him. The supported democrat bill being discussed right now specifically doesn’t set a date to leave. With all that aside, leaving Iraq now would be selfish IMO. I agree that the Iraq war was the wrong thing to do, but now that we got ourselves into it, it simply wouldn’t be fair to just leave. This would be my proposal if I was a Democratic canidate:
“We will work extremely closely with the new Iraqi Government. We will allow them to be in charge and will listen to what they say. We will ask them for advice as to when THEY feel we should leave and we will leave when they ask. We feel that setting a date to leave Iraq by ourselves is not only selfish, but dangerous. We promote democracy and will continue to work with the IRaqi government until that is fully realized. We will need abandon the Iraqi people and we will continue to fight the terrorist. Again, we will leave when the Iraqi see fit as they are obviously the best source of such knowledge”
Now that is something the American populace and the rest of the world could get behind. It would also show the terrorists we aren’t leaving until the Iraqi Government wants us to (would be the time that the Iraqi government has full control).
TAXES:
Americans simply don’t like to be taxed unless they truly believe it is a good tax. To simply say you are raising taxes is wrong. You really need to explain how it will help each and every american (including the rich as you call them).
Spending:
The republicans are supposed to be the party that cuts spending. They have NOT. This may or may not be important. If the democrats want to tout this fault, it could be a good idea. The problem: Do Democrats actually want to cut spending? If they don’t, it is a mute issue and us voters don’t get what we want.
Just my feelings
June 21st, 2006 at 4:49 pmI love it the way right-wing bloggers masquarade as campaign consultants as though they want to help the Dems win the next election rather than deflect criticism from their own arrogant, inompetent leaders.
Not every discussion is about what’s going to happen in the next election as determined by what happend in the last election. At some point it’s time to judge those currently in power on their merits.
June 21st, 2006 at 4:51 pm#199 I think you are very wrong and frankly, that type of talk upsets voters who are undecided. Sure, you’ll get some votes just stating what Bush did wrong, but by in large, undecided voter won’t care about what Bush Did wrong because HE ISN’T RUNNING. You certainly should state what he did wrong but in the context of your “better” plan for the future.
Why should I vote fora canidate that simply talks about what an old president did wrong? As a voter, don’t you think I really want to know your ideas and more importantly your plan for such ideas?
Currently, it seems like any question the Democrats get, they respond with something Bush failed on years ago. I just don’t see that as “solid”. BTW, I aint a republican and I voted for Gore. I simply want to see the Democrats come out and look like leaders, not complainers.
June 21st, 2006 at 5:02 pm#136, Tobey, he’ll probably add a “signing statement” to the summit statement!
June 21st, 2006 at 5:02 pmRoger-Roger–
your numbers are wrong. The unemployment rate in 2000 was 4.0%, the lowest level in more than 30 years. Sources: US Dept of Labor and Center on Budget Policy and Priorities. You’re right that current rate is 4.6%–that of course is higher than it was in 2000
people without health insurance get care when they go to the emergency room. they don’t get regular checkups, they don’t go to the doctor when something is bothering them but not incapacitating them, they often don’t get needed prescription drugs (or else they pay exorbirant rates for them). Many of these uninsured people are children. how any civilized country doesn’t see this as an outrage is beyond me.
can’t respond to everything else right now, but those points jumped out at me. Important to get basic facts right…
June 21st, 2006 at 5:04 pmgood point squeaky wheels–it is odd that Roger Roger is putting himself forth as a purported consultant to Dem campaigns…I don’t get it. I guess it does serve to deflect focus from those currently in power — the failed Republicans in the White House and Congress
June 21st, 2006 at 5:09 pmFor your reading enjoyment (or disgust)
A Nazi in the (pocket) is worth four in the Bush (family)
“You can fool some of the people all of the time, and those are the ones you have to focus on” – GW Bush
“You have to look at the entire Bush Family in this context — as if the family ran a corporation called ‘Frauds-R-Us,’
George Jr.’s specialty was insurance and security fraud.
Jeb’s specialty was oil and gas fraud.
Neil’s specialty was real estate fraud.
Prescott’s specialty was banking fraud.
And George Sr.’s specialty? All of the above.” — Lt. Cmdr. Al Martin, US Navy,(Ret)
June 21st, 2006 at 5:10 pmI read a study in the seattle PI, that stated that every insured person in the US pays $1,000 dollars a year to cover the uninsured. I have friends in Canada, who have never had problems with medical treatment, never had to wait in line, and are extremely pleased that they don’t have to worry about it. The idea that the Canadian health system is slow and inadequate is pure fiction.
June 21st, 2006 at 5:10 pmThe chimp say “OK to condemn people to tyranny”. What about all the tyrants America has installed and supported throughout the years to serve its own interests ?? The hypocrisy of America never ceases to amaze.
June 21st, 2006 at 5:12 pmNow these are are least ideas. I would argue #1 since your own party can’t seem to agree on that (so why should I). Hell, most of the democrat congress doesn’t support Murtha’s plan.
BTW, I aint a republican and I voted for Gore. I simply want to see the Democrats come out and look like leaders, not complainers.
Comment by Roger_Roger — June 21, 2006 @ 5
Which is it? Why would you first refer to the dems as “your party, not “the party”, or “our party,” and then claim to have voted for Gore? Seems confusing and contradictory. Please explain.
June 21st, 2006 at 5:12 pmanother randi rhodes caller asks:
Republicans, war supporters, et al – WHAT’S IN IT FOR YOU?
really, we’d all like to hear that one…
June 21st, 2006 at 5:17 pm(4.6% is am amazing accomplishment)
This percentage does not reflect the number of people who are employed part-time who need to be a full-time employee. It also does not reflect the percentage of the unemployed who have simply fallen off of the radar because they have been unemployed for so long.
The bottom line on the economy is that inflation has outpaced wage increases… not so good.
If they pay to little, people won’t take the job and the company will raise the amount they will pay.
The problem with this belief is that when push comes to shove people will take a lower paying job if that is all that is available… when it becomes a choice between their children starving and their children being hungry.
My brother is an Doctor and he knows first hand that we treat them regardless of insurance status.
That is a very good thing; however it is not the policy of all hospitals in all regions of the country. The other points you make regarding your fears of Gov’t control are realistic, but could also be addressed with the right type of Governement control.
Anything that the free market doesn’t control frankly scares me.
A system of Health for people controlled strictly by profit is what scares me. Are the wealthy the only people deserving of the best available Healthcare? The answer for me is, no.
we should give the educational system back to the free market
What would happen to people who could not afford a Private Education. At least under the current system, they have a choice to attend a Public School. The system could use a lot of work. Obviously more than the No Child Left Behind program can offer.
Again, we will leave when the Iraqi see fit as they are obviously the best source of such knowledge
Why, exactly, do you think the Iraqi Government has asked Bush for a specific time-table of withdrawl on several occasions?
Americans simply don’t like to be taxed unless they truly believe it is a good tax.
It would be cool (albeit extremely unrealistic) if people could choose where, exactly, their tax dollars go. That would be a little too much like a true Democracy.
June 21st, 2006 at 5:24 pmBarfly,
I am not a republican nor a Democrat. I am just one of the many that is in the middle and undecided. I voted for Gore 2 elections ago and I voted for Bush the last election. I truly can’t say how I’ll vote in 08′ simply because I don’t know who the canidates are and I surely don’t have a clue what they will stand for or what their plan is. Is that fair enough?
June 21st, 2006 at 5:24 pmmore for Roger Roger
you say “I am a middle class guy with a wife and 2 kids. We are doing great and my investments have done very well in the past year as have most. The stock market is truly booming which is amazing since Oil prices are so High (of course that should give you a hint into what to invest in: OIL).”
if you’re doing great, you may not be middle class any more! Median income in the US as of 2004 was around $70,000 for a family of 4 (of course, this varies by state). If you’re making $100k or more (and I have no idea what you make and don’t expect you to say), you’re probably on the plus side of middle class (depending on where you live)
In what way is the stock market “booming”? The S&P 500 is up .19% YTD–essentially flat. In January 2002 the Vanguard 500 fund that tracks the S&P 500 was at 105. Today it’s just under 115. That’s a gain of less than 10% in more than 4 years. You’d do better with a CD. The NASDAQ composite index is in negative territory for the year and stands at about the same level now (2100) as it did in early 2002 (not counting the big decline following 9/11). It did have very good years in 03 and 04, but don’t see how it’s been booming recently?
of course, it depends what you invest it. But broad domestic markets don’t seem to be booming. Certainly not in the last 6 months, not, for the most part, in the last 4 years.
I don’t follow your taxes, spending, education points–maybe you weren’t responding to me on these? I didn’t make any points on these issues other than to say we should repeal the big tax cuts for wealthy Americans
June 21st, 2006 at 5:25 pmDiplomatic Tact on Display…
The President talked with reporters in Vienna today. Maybe he didn’t get enough sleep. Maybe the food hasn’t been to his liking. He seemed downright testy at times….
June 21st, 2006 at 5:27 pmWhen Bush I was president (it could have been Reagan – I cannot remember) they started including the military in the employment/unemployment figures. This makes the unemployment percentage look better.
June 21st, 2006 at 5:30 pm#
It would be cool (albeit extremely unrealistic) if people could choose where, exactly, their tax dollars go. That would be a little too much like a true Democracy.
Comment by Jon — June 21, 2006 @ 5:24 pm
as the beastie boys once said “don’t want to help build bombs/and that’s a fact”
June 21st, 2006 at 5:37 pmI have read of people who instead of paying their taxes to the IRS, give the money directly to the agencies they wish to support. I wonder how much revenue the military would get, if that was the case?
“When Bush I was president (it could have been Reagan – I cannot remember) they started including the military in the employment/unemployment figures. This makes the unemployment percentage look better.”
To reiterate it, even taking numbers straight up from official sources counting military, not counting those who are not seeking jobs, the numbers are NOT better now. The unemployment rate in 2000 was 4.0%, the lowest in three decades. It’s now 4.6%. I can provide links to anyone who is interested. Roger Roger is simply incorrect about this
June 21st, 2006 at 5:37 pmeblair – I was agreeing with you. With the stop loss program and the recall of thousands of ex-military, there are greater numbers in the military now then when Bush took office. This makes the numbers look better for him.
June 21st, 2006 at 5:39 pmBush doesn’t care about polls. He doesn’t even see the opinions of the American people as advisory. He just took his election “victory” and ran with it, anything that happens from here on out has America’s tacit approval whether the people agree with it or not. Someone should explain to Bush that Democracy is about representing the people not just taking their votes and running with them any direction you please. I’d like to hear a reporter ask this question “Mr. president, you have said that you do not govern by polls. Isn’t that somewhat at odds with your job as a servant of the people?
June 21st, 2006 at 5:41 pm“eblair – I was agreeing with you. With the stop loss program and the recall of thousands of ex-military, there are greater numbers in the military now then when Bush took office. This makes the numbers look better for him. ”
sorry Jules–I wasn’t arguing with you–I just wanted to make sure we didn’t lose sight of the fact that even taking the numbers as is (i.e. not taking into account the point you make), unemployment has gotten worse under Bush
June 21st, 2006 at 5:45 pmIn the picture, is his hand blurred because it’s going up and down?
June 21st, 2006 at 5:58 pmAt least this conversatin is starting to look cival. I am even seeing some very goo dpolicy idea’s. Great good guys!! You are giving me hope.
To Ebliar:
My your numbers, I am middle class. I judge the market by 2 ways. 1, How well my personal investments are doing. 2, How is the unemployment rate. 4.6% is very very good. Ask the europeans what they think about that rate. They would probably think you were talking about their inflation rate. I truly believe raising the minimum wage would be a good thing. I don’t agree on increasing taxes as I would like to see government control decreased as a whole and get it back to a local level. I think federal spending has been horrible with the republicans in control but find it hard to believe that the Democrats will come in and actually make some serious cuts to federal spending. Once again, I would like to see local governments pick up the spending and have the feds out of our hair. So, I am very fiscally conservative. As for socially, I am against the Death penalty, against a ban on gay marriage, and am against abortan which makes me what (socially lib?)?
What I am trying to say is this. As you can see, I am your basic middle class undecided voter. We are the group that elects presidents as both sides need us. My views sway from conservative to lib. I came here to discuss politics and feel out what the current democrat party is looking to do for america. I already know what the republicans want to do.
Anyways, my search continues and maybe the leaders of the party will come out with a plan in the future. I just hope they don’t put all there hopes on simply Bashing Bush as I really can’t see how it will help them with anyone put the hardcore in there party.
Anyways, talk to you all tommorrow!!
June 21st, 2006 at 5:59 pmLike Ma Bell, I Got The Ill Communications
have read of people who instead of paying their taxes to the IRS, give the money directly to the agencies they wish to support.
In the U.S.? How does one sign up for this?
I know that mine would definitely not go towards the military… at least not until it can be proven that it is to be used for purely defensive reasons.
June 21st, 2006 at 6:00 pmRoger Roger–I’ll keep saying it–4.6% unemployment is not very very good. It’s 15% worse than when Clinton left office. (for mathophobes: 4.6-4.0 = .6. .6/4.0 = 15%). and you initially started off arguing that unemployment is lower now than it was in 2000 and 4.6% is an “amazing achievement”. It’s not–it represents a failure of this administration. I guess you have abandoned, or modified that point…
you say you judge the market based on how your personal investments are doing. I don’t know what to say to that. This is a nation of 300 million people. If you’ve had a good year, that’s good for you. The rest of us have experienced a broad domestic stick market that has been flat in ‘06 and not much better since ‘02.
you then say Europeans would be jealous of our unemployment rate. maybe so. what does that have to do with anything?
you keep talking about increasing taxes. I don’t think I ever said anything about that. I did say we should repeal the tax cut for the rich. If you want to call that a tax increase…well, that is semantics.
you find it hard to believe Dems would make cuts in spending. were you here during the 90s? Clinton cut spending, increased taxes on the wealthym cut taxes on others (including expanding earned income tax credit for working poor) and actually balanced the budget, over Republican onjections. The Dems record on fiscal responsibility is quite good. The Republicans have shot it all to hell over the past 6 years, cutting taxes while also increasing spending. Many conservatives are quite unhappy with the Bush record on these fronts.
glad to hear your positions on social issues–I agree on no death penalty, no ban on gay marriage. I am pro-choice though. You sound like a libertarian, though your abortion position is in tension with that
I don’t know if you’re really undecided. My suspicion is you are pretty anti-Dem (based specifically on things you have written). That’s fine–you’re entitled to your opinion.
if you want to know what the current Dem party is looking to do for America, check out the DSCC website, Harry Reid, Nancy Pelosi, DCCC, etc. No one here (I don’t think anyways) speaks for the Democratic party. I speak only for myself. I will vote for Dem because the alternative is a disaster that brought us a war based on lies, an economy based on tax cuts for the rich, and to hell with everyone else, and a budget deficit from here to eternity.
June 21st, 2006 at 6:14 pmAt least this conversatin is starting to look cival. I am even seeing some very goo dpolicy idea’s
We hope you return. At the risk of sounding condescending, do you see what happens when you change your tone? You get what you put into it and when you come right out of the box attacking people for being “far left” (as if that’s an insult)and implying that we are against Democracy and Free Speech, you will be attacked in return. Perhaps your questions initially reflected your beliefs about those on the left and, if so, hopefully you were able to see that is not purely the case.
Here’s to your safe return and hope that you vote correctly (again) this time around ;)
Cheers
June 21st, 2006 at 6:18 pmsorry to have allowed this thread to meander by the way–I apologize. I get fired up about some things, but I think we’ve lost sight of the original focus. My apologies for my role in that!
June 21st, 2006 at 6:18 pmagreed with Jon–I do enjoy the debate. I just apologize to others if I’ve diverted it from the original topic.
happy to hear from Roger Roger again
June 21st, 2006 at 6:20 pmChimpy is full of shit and this proves it. Anybody who still supports Chimpy is an idiot.
June 21st, 2006 at 6:28 pmChimpy’s foreign policy is based on 911. And 911 is a lie. The terrorists did not bring down those towers by themselves…and definitely did not cause WTC 7 to fall straight down in a controlled demolition. The official version of 911 is a LIE and since Chimpy bases his foreign policy on it, that’s a LIE too.
June 21st, 2006 at 6:31 pmIn the photo it looks like Bush is throwing his own feces.
Comment by Juan C — June 21, 2006 @ 5:54 pm
You’re too funny…
June 21st, 2006 at 7:03 pmcaption contest:
we’re fighting them there so we don’t fight them here.. what’s that? you’ve been fighting them here? well guess what the ‘w’ in george w bush stands for? heh, heh – whatever! anyhow, 9-11, freedom’s on the march!
June 21st, 2006 at 7:07 pmHere, catch this pretzel.
I shouldn’t be astounded by his idiocy any more, but I am.
June 21st, 2006 at 7:11 pmChimpus and the asshats have seized on a point in time (9/11) as the defining moment in our future. You are only fixated on this for your own personal gain. Yes, it was tragic and should be remembered, but more important sentenal have occurred in our history that did not strip our liberty nor denie our personal freedoms. Mr. Bush, you are a liar and criminal, you should face trial and be impeached and incarserated.
June 21st, 2006 at 7:57 pmthe sound of one ass clapping.
June 21st, 2006 at 8:43 pmSome people, like himself (Cheney, Rummy, Condi, et al)?
June 21st, 2006 at 8:56 pm#230 You were sarcastic, right? Because I know I am not (funny, not sarcastic).
June 21st, 2006 at 10:03 pm# 25: You seem to forget that the Democrats “lost” the last presidential election. We are also a minority in both houses of congress. We don’t HAVE to come up with a “game plan for democracy,” or any other policy decisions. That’s Bush’s job, and he’s botching it badly. And whether Kerry or Gore could have done better or worse is totally irrelevant. Because it’s now Bush’s job, and he’s botching it badly. And Iraq is not in the crapper because Democrats are “unpatriotic.” It’s a mess because it’s Bush’s job and he’s botching it badly.
…You do realize that foreign policy decisions are primarily the purview of the executive branch, don’t you? Id est it’s Bush’s job–and he’s botching it badly.
June 22nd, 2006 at 12:36 amIf he wasn’t so freaking stupid, I could be embarrassed…but I never voted for this ass-clown so don’t blame be, blame the ignorant deliverance wing of the GOP.
June 22nd, 2006 at 12:51 amIf he wasn’t so freaking stupid, I could be embarrassed…but I never voted for this ass-clown so don’t blame me, blame the ignorant deliverance wing of the GOP.
June 22nd, 2006 at 12:51 amPost 240 LOL I needed a good laugh > Bush and the GOP do act like Deliverance hicks!
June 22nd, 2006 at 2:14 amRemember, only 1 country in the history of the world that was a democracy has preemtively attacked someone (The US).
Comment by redneck hick — June 21, 2006 @ 1:25 pm
Not true.
The ancient democratic city-state of Athens did this also. They democratically voted to pre-emptively attack across the Mediterraneans Sea to address a perceived threat.
It did, however, lead to the destruction of their fleet and the downfall of their society which, in its weakened state, was sacked by the Spartans shortly thereafter.
Not true. The attack to present day Turkey was a joint venture by Athens and Sparta. Athens did not lose its fleet in the campaign. It was shortly followed by the Pelopennesian war, during this 30 year war Athens ran out of money and was subdued by the oligarchy in Sparta.
Also, the US is not a “democracy”, in the election of 2000 Bush lost the popular vote by half a million in democratic principle. Unfortunately the US is a representative republic which translated to the 500 vote “victory” (debatable) in florida, while still losing the general election.
No federal state system is a democracy people.
June 22nd, 2006 at 2:21 amHe just can’t help himself, can he? Just cannot keep from saying something stupid and insulting, not to mention insensitive, when he needs to ask for help from the people he just ’shat’ upon, and doesn’t have a clue about it. And his body language looks like he’s doing his “Gotta catapult the propoganda” dance, but with a little more desperation than usual. Guess he doesn’t feel as powerful outside of America, and it is showing. I hope the EU makes him sweat, for a good long while, and then hand him his hat. He needs to be put in his place.
June 22nd, 2006 at 3:58 ambush has done nothing but run our country into the ground. i dont even want to get started on the international issues. i will just name two domestic issues that should raise a few questions. #1 the formation of the dhs. made law by executive order. no chance of debate or vote. #2 the patriot act made law by congress like a shotgun wedding. those who opposed it were clearly traitors. my point is this both of these issues must have been drawn up and sitting on the shelf waiting for just the right time to empower. the dhs and patriot act both are way to complicated to be drawn up and approved in less than 3 weeks. yet both of them did just that. the people all over the world can see what has taken place here. why cant we?
June 22nd, 2006 at 4:26 amDumbya may be an utter embarrassment for the country, but his policies are nothing new. It is a continuation of cold war policy under a new name, with vestiges of cold war policy makers calling the shots, so to speak. Massive war games in the Pacific, I take as a signal to northern Korea of U.S. intentions there. This is a country that has invested for too much in guns and too little in butter and all the other things that attend civilized society, clearly. The military needs to be pared down to perhaps a few guards around the White House to keep an eye on the current occupant, whoever that might be.
June 22nd, 2006 at 7:16 amSpeaking as a Brit here..no European with a heart or a conscience will ever forget 9/11.
However Bush is once again using 9/11 for his own agenda, disgraceful how such a tragedy has been hijacked and used time and time again by the Bush administration and the GOP in there fear-mongering brand of politics.
June 22nd, 2006 at 8:09 amPlease please please keep your chimp locked up in his cage on the far side of the atlantic. To quote (and translate) Le Monde, the French national newspaper, it’s headline on 12th September read “Today we are all Americans”. And no truer a statement has ever been printed. BUt this…….utter idiot seems to think that it was only America that was affected?? What about OUR rising petrol prices? What about OUR London and Madrid bombings? What about OUR troops that were foolishly sucked into his war for oil. Go home George, and take your Fox News bullshit with you.
June 22nd, 2006 at 9:04 ampost# 246 you are 100% correct. one more comment, bush talks as if the u.s. is the only country to suffer from terrorist attacks. apparently he has forgotten that the u.k. and europe have been under attack for years before 9/11.
June 22nd, 2006 at 9:11 amRuthie–right on the money. It’s kind of surreal that Bush apologists think the focus should be on whether the Dems have a policy worked out. What do you think Republicans would be saying if Dems controlled the White House and Congress and had us bogged down in a 3 year long (plus) war with 2500 Americans killed, no end in sight–and the war itself was launched on lies. I’m sure they’d be carefully considering whether Republicans had come up with viable policy alternatives…not.
For a party that loves to talk about personal responsibility, Republicans never seem to apply that principle to themselves. Everything is always someone else’s fault–either Bill Clinton (even 6 years after he left office) or Dems in Congress.
As Ruthie says, “[Iraq is] Bush’s job–and he’s botching it badly.” sadly, this is true. Bush needs to manfully accept responsibility, acknowledge error, and change course.
June 22nd, 2006 at 9:41 amCitizens of other countries have been exposed to information blacked out in the USA by the corporate media. Information that leaves much room for doubt concerning the official narrative of the 911 atrocity.
I would suppose that since the US government has (falsely) used 911 as a pretext for unilateral military aggression against Iraq, suspicions of official misconduct have only been hightened.
June 22nd, 2006 at 10:22 amHow about a citizen show of support for our foreign friends? If enough people sign the pledge, at least a few people around the world might feel like they have friends within our country willing to do more than just rant.
-Dan
June 22nd, 2006 at 12:35 pmHow about outlawing box cutters and be done with it? End the war, save the troops, and save the money, then we can save the country, but first get rid of the republicans.
June 22nd, 2006 at 12:36 pmGeorge W. Bush is the most unimaginative, incurious, butt-munch example of the Peter Principle since..
Ever.
The man should be Assistant Night Manager at a McDonalds with extra janitorial duties.
June 22nd, 2006 at 3:30 pmJust imagine if it had been the “start” of thinking…
June 22nd, 2006 at 5:39 pmThat’s funny…because not only are approval for his policies, particularly on national security issues low in Europe…they’re low in the U.S. too! So does that mean Americans aren’t taking 9/11 seriously???
June 27th, 2006 at 12:02 pm9/11 Conspiracy
Here are some 9/11 conspiracy videos. The first is a link to a full-length documentary called “Loose Change” (click on the link and follow the link to the video):
http://www.loosechange911.com/
Other shorter 9/11 conspiracy stuff I also found interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc2lih2qjEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXpcnhwFlIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF8-8Kaa8jo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmvGFVr6KNk
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