Preteen magazine makes military recruiting pitch.
By on Jul 3rd, 2006 at 11:49 am
Preteen magazine makes military recruiting pitch.
“Cobblestone magazine, which is put out by Carus Publishing in Peterborough, is aimed at children ages 9-14 and is distributed nationwide to schools and libraries. Its latest issue features a cover photo of a soldier in Iraq clutching a machine gun and articles on what it’s like to go through boot camp, a rundown of the Army’s ‘awesome arsenal’ and a detailed description of Army career opportunities,” the AP reports.
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I can see why the Army would want to put ads in as many publications as possible, but their age demographic, why would Cobblestone magazine accept such advertising?
July 3rd, 2006 at 11:53 am…but *with* their age demographic…
July 3rd, 2006 at 11:54 amI don’t imagine there will be any mention or appeal in Preteen for the 42 year olds under the new enlistment age limits.
I’m guessing that pitch will be in the AARP magizine next month.
July 3rd, 2006 at 11:56 amwhat is wrong with that? not all these kids have commie parents, too weak to fight them there, so we don’t have to fight them here!
hitler had…well, let’s not mention that one…
children murdering other children sounds peachy to me…it frees up the adults to do the torturing and raping, no?
kisses,
ann
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:00 pmWhy is this scandalous? Why shouldn’t the military recruit? And what’s wrong with discussing the benefits of military service?
Oh yeah, because painting the military with any brush that doesn’t include waton murder, rape, inpropriety and blantant disregard for civilians doesn’t pass the left’s test.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:03 pmthis seems ok to me. i would rather ads in magazines, regardless of which ones, than have actual live soldiers requirting in the schools
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:05 pmAmazing that anyone would think there’s nothing wrong with trying to recruit 9-14-year-olds into the military. Will they draw the line at advertising in Highlights magazine? This is pathetic. Does the US DOD operate under the impression that there is nothing deadly about being in the Army? It’s bad enough that they want personal data on high schoolers to try to recruit them, but going after even younger people than that is unjustifiable.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:07 pmShall we label this propoganda push accurately and call it the “Bush Youth” program? Who is going to defend this and what justifications can be used?
What’s more disturbing than these rhetorical questions is that there will be defenders, and excuses. How corrupt and insane is a society that employs the tactics of an evil and defunct regime in polluting their own childrens’ minds with hate and desensitizing them to the horrors of war and murder?
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:07 pmactual live soldiers [requirting] in the schools
Comment by gould631
Aaaaacccckkkkk! What’s that!? :-D
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:07 pmthat is a typo. recruiting would be the word. and if you have not seen soldiers recruiting in person, it is a site to fear. i live in NYC and see them in the subways all the time, talking up how great it is that college will be paid for. kids might see it, and parents can respond to it in a magazine. get a 13 year old in the subway with a soldier in camo, he will be much more interested. there will have to be recruting unless we have a draft, so i would rather it in magazines than elsewhere.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:11 pmrecruting, there goes that spelling thing again!
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:13 pmI wondered where the lemmings were hiding. The WHOLE point of shining the light on this issue (and it was NOT an ad – it was the subject of the magazine issue) – is that 9 to 14 year olds are OFF LIMITS, damn it! They will be inundated soon enough once they reach high school. As I view our government at this moment, and the fact they are so blatantly corrupt, and that we even have to fight to tell the truth, is just so frustrating, and a sense of doom prevails. THEY MAY NOT HAVE MY SON, he is not fodder for the government to use in their quest to rule the world.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:14 pm“In Bush’s America, the real opportunity for young people doesn’t wear a cap and gown – it wears helmets and boots.”
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:16 pmthe ‘original’ religious crusades were manned by children! this is nothing new…
1) children are smaller and are not as easy to shoot
2) they eat less than bigger soldiers
3) the uniforms are smaller so we have more money for bullets
4) it frees up the big boys for torturing and raping civilians
it is really a win-win for the americans here. of course, you silly progressives do not see it that way… yellow cowards!
kisses,
ann
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:16 pmSince this was in the content of the magazine, is it possible the magazine chose to do a piece on the military rather than being forced to by the government?
Is it possible that, even given the risks, millions of kids want to be in the army (actually, everyone in the army now chose to join the military of their own free will…)
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:20 pmOh yeah, because painting the military with any brush that doesn’t include waton murder, rape, inpropriety and blantant disregard for civilians doesn’t pass the left’s test.
Inane euphemistic rhetoric chase.
Members of my family have served, quite a few in fact…why would I paint them with a brush of bias such as you have done?
They served our country chase and if you think only ‘leftists’ post here, or that we paint pictures like the kindergarten picture you have TRIED to paint.
Look back thru any war chase and you will find wanton murder, rape and all the other impropieties you list.
That’s a fact of war, you wanted war with Iraq, why have you not joined yet?
The ‘left’ didn’t want to go into Iraq. Here’s why;
Scheuer is one of more than 100 national security and terrorism analysts surveyed by Foreign Policy magazine and the Center for American Progress, a left-leaning think tank.
Asked whether the United States is “winning the war on terror,” 84 percent said no and 13 percent answered yes. Asked whether the war in Iraq is helping or hurting the global anti-terrorism campaign, 87 percent said hurting. Eighty-six percent said the world is becoming “more dangerous for the United States and the American people.”
So Chase the War, you wanted, of rape and wanton murder, has made america, according to 100 security experts, less safe. If we had not gone into IRAQ Chase we would be in a much better position to fight the war on terror, instead of creating it.
wtfu.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:20 pmMothers, be vigilant. My sister had to TALK her son out of joining the ROTC. (they’re the first ones to be indoctrinated).
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:21 pmSorry gould631, I wouldn’t have pointed it out if it weren’t so wonderfully icky sounding.
I have been witness to recruiting lately. My son turned 18 in January, and suddenly he was being followed around the school and getting phone calls almost everyday. He’s graduated now, and he still gets calls at least three times a week. I wanted him to opt out, but he’s having too good of a time with them. At this point, they probably think my son is a big, gay, slightly cuckoo, contortionist.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:21 pms it possible that, even given the risks, millions of kids want to be in the army (actually, everyone in the army now chose to join the military of their own free will…)
what’s stopping you from joining Chase?
My ‘left’, as you think, family served, are you saying that you are above serving Chase?
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:24 pmClearly I am not a “lemming”. The government does not want your little child. They can’t send him/her into battle for a few years They are introducing your kid to the military. While you may not like, our country has a military. The military is a noble profession, don’t forget, if the cause is noble, the soldiers will go and fight for a noble cause. THIS WAR is not noble, no dispute there. But we will still need the military if the next cause comes around and is a noble one. I know, peace love and crap. It sounds nice, but in this world we live in, not a reality at the moment. So be a realist. You want the magazine article, or ad, or you want actual soldiers alive and talking to your son at the mall? And if you think your 8-14 year old doesn’t know about the military and guns and killing and all that nasty crap that we did not know about when we were that young, think again. We are surrounded by it in video games, news and general culture. 9-14 now is not what it was when we were young.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:25 pmZooey, i want to meet your kid, he sounds like a blast.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:27 pmTHIS WAR is not noble, no dispute there. –gould631
That I can agree with…
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:29 pmMaybe it was supposed to portray a positive image to kids whose parents were already in the military. I think that this kind of assumptive journalism is a mistake. Democrats are in the military, too.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:30 pmMY child has been introduced to the military. My dear departed father, his grandfather, a decorated veteran, served in two wars for this country, and my SON is quite aware of that fact. He is also very aware his cousin, my 24-year-old niece, serving in Afghanistan – going on three years now – after being stop ordered once already. So don’t preach to me about the nobility of serving this country.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:30 pmi completely agree with gould. pre-emptive invasions are fun and the right thing to do. we need to have the kids learn to love irrationality so that we can invade all the other non-christian countries in the next several years.
i gave my little neice a bleeding raghead doll and she just loves it! three years old, but, she has more spine than most of the posters on here…
we will slowly squash all dissent and the best way to do it is to destroy the children with zealot hatred for the other!
mmm, i love the smell of fear in the children!!! makes me all moist :)
kisses,
ann
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:31 pmgood point sean B
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:31 pm#21 – He is a blast, thanks.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:32 pmI know who would love a number of that magazine: Exley and Seixon!!! For kids between 9-14 (they apply) and eager to kick some Iraqi butt!!! I am sure MIghty aphrodite already enroll her children. (Right)
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:38 pmI think that our military is being ruined beyond repair…with chickenhawks in control of them, as with everything else they touch, will just simply break.
Details Emerge in Alleged Army Rape, Killings
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:39 pm#19 – The reason I have not volunteered is that I don’t have – military service at this point, is voluntary not compulsory.
If a draft were instituted, and I were selected, I would serve.
I don’t see how my not serving forecloses my ability to support recruiting efforts. Most of the kids I know who joined the military (not all, but most) had very few options after high school, at least by their estimation. The military, for them, offered more benefits, in both the short- and long-term than any of their other options. So they joined.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:41 pmOh yeah, because painting the military with any brush that doesn’t include waton murder, rape, inpropriety and blantant disregard for civilians doesn’t pass the left’s test.
comment by Chase
No one here is painting the military one way or the other. It does that itself, good or bad. I might add, that the military doesn’t need our help or yours, sounding off like some rightwing, rednecked, Fox Network dipshit, to do that. And I for one, (yes, horrors, a PROGRESSIVE liberal) am proud of my own military service that was devoid of murder and rape, have nothing against a military recruiter in the schools or anywhere else, pal. I’m just thinking they ought to wait until the kids get their diapers off and leave the old geezers to their rocking chairs.
Since I know that you have certainly served your country, I was wondering what branch, specific unit, and MOS you had. Those of us here who have done our duty for our country would like for you to enlighten us with your own patriotic service?
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:41 pm#20-gould631,
You clearly have not served in the military and therefore have no concept of what it is about. You speak cavalierly about military service while having no clue about the responsibilities and concepts that are at its core. There are no more serious and complicated issues than war and killing. Contemplating such issues at an adult level is a monumental task. Thinking that CHILDREN are prepared to analyze such is insanity on a galactic scale.
In your world, it is just hunky-dory to inundate your children with whiz-bang and romanticized propaganda about war, well before they have even come close to developing enough mentally and psychologically to have the most rudimentary understanding of death and killing. The absurdity of your position is exceeded only by your monumental ignorance.
I am in disbelief at how willingly many of you leap into the abyss, ignoring every warning and stop sign that history has prominently displayed for you. You have no idea how close you are to extinction.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:43 pmHow corrupt and insane is a society that employs the tactics of an evil and defunct regime in polluting their own childrens’ minds with hate and desensitizing them to the horrors of war and murder?
Comment by Humanist — July 3, 2006 @ 12:07 pm
I got it: Germany after WWI.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:44 pmI remember when the air force recruiters hounded me for weeks, the high school had careeer development courses, and the recruiters of course knew the names and phone numbers and what course of study you took.
After seeing what war had done to a uncle who served in vietnam, my father who as in the airforce, my mom remarried, yet another air force guy who was a flight engineer on the b-26 bombers…he saw many a friends plane shot down..Ask any of these men if they are ‘noble’ and they will all say no.
Another friend went thru vietnam, he told me he has killed quite a few people, he is an alcoholic today because of war.
Yeh war is noble allright.
Only a Politicicam would call war noble.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:45 pmIf a draft were instituted, and I were selected, I would serve.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:47 pmComment by Chase — July 3, 2006 @ 12:41 pm
Anyone, as me, think he is a sissy?
#30-Chase,
I’m sorry, but you don’t see how the fact that you have not served in the military discounts your opinion on serving in the military? Do you also offer advice to Einstein on physics with the same ignorance and baseless “authority”?
If you cannot see the insanity of your position, you should probably seek professional help and quickly.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:48 pm#35 – Juan C –
Why am I a sissy?
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:48 pmMaybe it was supposed to portray a positive image to kids whose parents were already in the military. I think that this kind of assumptive journalism is a mistake. Democrats are in the military, too.
Comment by Sean-B
First I don’t think there is anything wrong with an article about the military in a mag like this. But this obviously goes a little far with the recruiting edge of it. It shows how to enlist through a recruiter and asks THEM to write a letter to a recruiter about what job THEY would do in the military and why THEY should be accepted. Remember these are awfully young kids to be asking this to. This doesn’t seem like an article that talks about things past. You can dismiss it if you want to but I’ll take the content into consideration.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:50 pmChase
Because you are preaching about the benefits of recruiting children into something you yourself, are not willing to join.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:52 pmif a draft were instituted, and I were selected, I would serve.
Comment by Chase — July 3, 2006 @ 12:41 pm
Anyone, as me, think he is a sissy?
I wont get into name calling…
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:52 pmbut Chase, you sit here and accuse the ‘left’ of being chickens and not serving, of appeasing the terrorists, of painting the troops on the light of rape and murder, yet you, a war cheerleader for bush, a freeper, would only join and fight for america if you were made to go?
WTF?
Can you see the hypocrisy of your own words?
No Child Left Behind!
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:52 pmand #36 – I can know and understand the benefits of military service without having actually served myself. Would someone who served themselves understand them better? Sure.
However, what I’m defending is a magazine’s right to write an article on whatever topic it wants. That’s what we are talking about here: Cobblestone chose to write an article about the military. While I’m sure it’s not the kind of hard-hitting investigative journalism we would all prefer, considering the audience, a fluff piece about the military isn’t horrible.
Now if the military DEMANDED they write the article, at gunpoint, we are talking about a different beast altogether. But they didn’t, so we arent.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:53 pmThere are also reports of the military recruiting in video promos at Chuck E Cheese:
Babes in Warland
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:53 pmhttp://www.truthout.org/docs_2005/090205C.shtml
Chase
Because you are preaching about the benefits of recruiting children into something you yourself, are not willing to join.
Bingo!
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:54 pmBritons see US as vulgar empire builder
By Ben Fenton
(Filed: 03/07/2006)
Most Britons see America as a cruel, vulgar, arrogant society, riven by class and racism, crime-ridden, obsessed with money and led by an incompetent hypocrite.
Britons have never had such a low opinion of the leadership of the United States, a YouGov poll shows.
American troops are failing either to win “hearts and minds” in Iraq or bring democracy to that country.
More than two-thirds who offered an opinion said America is essentially an imperial power seeking world domination. And 81 per cent of those who took a view said President George W Bush hypocritically championed democracy as a cover for the pursuit of American self-interests.
A spokesman for the American embassy said that the poll’s findings were contradicted by its own surveys.
“We question the judgment of anyone who asserts the world would be a better place with Saddam still terrorizing his own nation and threatening people well beyond Iraq’s borders.
“With respect to the poll’s assertions about American society, we bear some of the blame for not successfully communicating America’s extraordinary dynamism.
“But frankly, so do you [the British press].”
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:56 pmThis is for all of you guys who think that relatives or themselves fighting in the army was a noble cause:
I post only past ten years. (See how active is US in fighting noble causes)
ZAIRE (CONGO) 1996-97 Troops Marines at Rwandan Hutu refugee camps, in area where Congo revolution begins.
LIBERIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
ALBANIA 1997 Troops Soldiers under fire during evacuation of foreigners.
SUDAN 1998 Missiles Attack on pharmaceutical plant alleged to be “terrorist” nerve gas plant.
AFGHANISTAN 1998 Missiles Attack on former CIA training camps used by Islamic fundamentalist groups alleged to have attacked embassies.
IRAQ 1998-? Bombing, Missiles Four days of intensive air strikes after weapons inspectors allege Iraqi obstructions.
YUGOSLAVIA 1999 Bombing, Missiles Heavy NATO air strikes after Serbia declines to withdraw from Kosovo. NATO occupation of Kosovo.
YEMEN 2000 Naval USS Cole bombed.
MACEDONIA 2001 Troops NATO forces deployed to move and disarm Albanian rebels.
UNITED STATES 2001 Jets, naval Reaction to hijacker attacks on New York, DC
AFGHANISTAN 2001-? Troops, bombing, missiles Massive U.S. mobilization to overthrow Taliban, hunt Al Qaeda fighters, install Karzai regime. Forces also engaged in neighboring Pakistan.
YEMEN 2002 Missiles Predator drone missile attack on Al Qaeda, including a US citizen.
PHILIPPINES 2002 Troops, naval Training mission for Philippine military fighting Muslim Abu Sayyaf rebels evolves into US combat missions in Sulu Archipelago next to Mindanao.
COLOMBIA 2003-? Troops US special forces sent to rebel zone to back up Colombian military protecting oil pipeline.
IRAQ 2003-? Troops, naval, bombing, missiles Second Gulf War launched for “regime change” in Baghdad. US, joined by UK and Australia, attacks from Kuwait, other Gulf states, and European and US bases.
Where is the noble cause? Vietnam or Korea was a noble cause? Was any citizen of those poor countries ever done something to your families? There is nothing noble in wars provoked by US. Period. You can dream you did a service for your country, but what you did was killing innocent people and put some money in war and defence companies pockets. NOw, 2531 soldiers, most of them, kids, appreciate very much that propaganda and sense of superiority you think you have over the rest of the world.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:57 pm#40 –
when did i say the “left” were “chickens”, that liberals dont serve, or that the left are appeasing terrorists? nowhere, and a search of my history commenting here would turn up no such statements.
military service is a choice. i have never said people that don’t join the military are any less patriotic for not. not once, not ever.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:58 pmI wonder if the 15-18 year old material now has barely dressed women holding bottles of beer presenting the “awesome weapons” they will get to blow stuff up with….you know… honor doesnt mean anything anymore .. all marketing all the time…
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:58 pm#42-Chase,
No, you cannot know and understand the benefits of serving in the military if you have not. To think that you can is so absurd it is beyond comprehension. I, frankly, cannot believe that you even said it.
July 3rd, 2006 at 12:59 pmHumanist – I have not served, that is true. With family that has served and come home and family that has served and not made it back to our shores, I assure you I do not take war and death lightly. But let’s be real here, the military will always need soldiers. There will be war until our extinction. In case you had not realized it from your high chair above the rest of us, our worl has been at war from the start. People will kill people over stupid crap, like whose god is better, and over more important issues, such as ethnic cleansing. You see me as ignorant, I see you the same way. I see the world as it is, you see it the way you want it to be.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:00 pmSorry, Chase.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:00 pm#49 – What are you talking about?
Why would it be impossible to know the benefits of military service without serving? I may not know them as personally or as fully as one who has served but I can still know what they are, can I not?
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:02 pmmilitary service is a choice. i have never said people that don’t join the military are any less patriotic for not. not once, not ever.
really?
rape, inpropriety and blantant disregard for civilians doesn’t pass the left’s test. -Chase
did you write this?
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:03 pmHey Chase… keep your propaganda OUT of my kids heads … thanks. Same for sexual and religious matters of all kinds… that goes for the left and right… keep your hands off my kids until they hit 18 unless you get my OPT-IN permission… thanks…
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:04 pmgould631
There probably always will be war, or the spectre of war, that is true, but when you start recruiting ten year olds into your war, you lose the ability to have peace, and the only thing that can ever really end a war is peace.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:05 pmKeep denying it chase, you may become a sleazy politician yet and a bush mis-rememberer yet.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:05 pmBruce, you make a great point.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:06 pmI’m eagerly waiting for the Wonder Pets episode that will involve saving a baby scorpion from terrorists in Iraq. That will have four through six year olds flocking to their nearest recruiting office.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:06 pmThe original source, the Boston Globe, reports the magazine is considering recruitment articles for the Marines Corps, Navy, Air Force, and Coast Guard as well.
The Carus family, owners of Carus Publishing that produces the magazine, are steady donors to Republican campaigns.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:06 pm#50-gould631
Einsteins definition of insanity: Expecting different results from the same actions.
Just because in your pathetic existence you have accepted war and killing as “normal” and that if we “war” correctly then all will be okay, it is a mistake to expect that to be “reality”.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:07 pmThere will be war until our extinction.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:09 pmComment by gould631 — July 3, 2006 @ 1:00 pm
That is why we fight for. NO wars. Your statement is retrograd as a Java man would talk. War exists because people in the power need it to make profit. You live in an atmosphere of perpetual war and conflict, that is the all american way, just check blockbusters of Hollywood, they all praise war, they all present just 2 sides: good and bad. That is ridiculous, but thats how you were brought up to.
so chase this “lefts” test. I guess since you know about this “test” that you took it. I have never seen such a “test” care to give us a copy of this mysterious test you use to accuse the ‘left’ of being painters of rape and murder?
I bet this test doesn’t exist, I bet you made it up, I bet you needed that test to make your illogical “math” work, to produce the result you desired…
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:10 pm#52-Chase,
Okay, you need proof, fine. What, young man, are the “benefits” of serving in the military? And in order to understand and qualify the benefits, one has to know the demands and respnosibilities of being in the military. So, I need you to list your osmosis induced expertise on those as well.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:10 pm#53 – what does my comment:
have to do with
i dont see how they are in conflict. i do think there is a desire by some to suggest everyone in the military is a murderer, rapist and criminal with no regard for the civilian population. maybe saying “the left” was over broad – it just so happens that most of those individuals are from the left…
and #54 – propaganda? a bit strong dont you think. every time the history channel shows off future “gee-whiz” weapons, do you throw the remote and say “damned propaganda!” and ear-muff your kids?
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:10 pm#35 – Juan C -
Why am I a sissy?
Comment by Chase
Because your excuse for not serving is the same lame-assed sissy excuse all you rightwingers use: Limbaugh: I had a cyst on my ass during Vietnam so I was 4F. O’Reilly: I was going to college for years and years so I had deferments. Wolfowitz: ditto. Cheney: My wife was getting pregnant and I wanted to be there.
You say: The reason I have not volunteered is that I don’t have – military service at this point, is voluntary not compulsory.
Yeah. And Cheney had better things to do, like knock up his wife for another deferment when his college deferments ran out during the Vietnam War.
I don’t question your right to voice your opinion here on military matters. And serving is not the bar to be allowed to post or critize here, but your shit is too weak to come in here and personally attack the opinions and impune the patriotism of others just because they don’t agree with Rummy and junior’s tired ass.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:11 pmA “left test”…jeec chase, talk about mental masterbationists.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:11 pm#63 – benefits, including but not limited to:
- insurance and health care benefits
- pension
- promotion opportunities
- various discounts
- GI Bill
- “see the world” type stuff
- etc
it would be an exercise in time wasting to find the specifics. however, this is what i meant by the benefits of military service. of course there are responsibilities and risks that must be bourne but they must agree with a lot of people because a lot of people join the military.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:16 pmI used to be opposed to such advertising, like the rest of you here.
However, my 11 year old daughter is feeling the call for duty and wants to join the Army. I support her 100%… and I support all the troops 100%.
I pray that the Lord keep her safe from harm.
I warned her to finish college FIRST…. because I want her to be a careerist military brass, rather than an “Enlisted swine” (according to my dad, who was enlisted in Vietnam.)
That way, she is more likely to earn the good dollars of the military, get a desk job someplace in the world, and learn valuable skills for the private sector.
Today, I no longer have problems with Army advertising (all because of her.)
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:17 pmYou are correct, nasty republicans (and some dems too) make a boatload of cash fighting wars. It is sickening. But do not overlook that societies fought each other in war long before Hollywood made movies. When, not if, when the next huge, kill a billion people war comes, what will be left is a fraction of the world we have now. It should be no surprise that the remaining members of society will not get together to repopulate, they will form groups, societies, and then they will fight each other. And there will be no profit involved. By the way, what the hell does this mean . . . “Your statement is retrograd as a Java man would talk.”
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:17 pmbecause a lot of people join the military.
Comment by Chase — July 3, 2006
Ignorant or desperate people.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:18 pmJuan C
War exists because people are stupid, disagreeable predetars with no real sense of when not to kill each other.
We are pack animals, not herd animals. You look at a herd of cows, they get on with each other. You see a large crowd of people, we form mutually exclusive cliques. If you want to see why the world is the way it is it doesn’t take looking at world politics, it takes looking at a Highschool, and then imagining everyone has semi-automatic weapons.
It is less a matter of rich people being dicks, and more a matter of people in general being dicks. The trick is to find some way for them to channel that dickery into something constructive, rather then killing everything in sight.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:18 pm#65 – Joe –
Clinton ran overseas and got a deferment as well.
And those guys, I have much less sympathy for. They sought to avoid a draft, when service is compulsory. If you dont see the difference, I cant help you.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:20 pmSo, you would only serve if forced to.
Chicken hawk.
Bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:21 pm#70 – Wow Juan, that’s a much more sweeping indictment of the enlisted military than anything I ever approached, suggested or thought of.
do you really think everyone in the military is “ignorant or desperate”?
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:22 pmThe military has been reaching into the preteen market for a while. Example A: The Boy Scouts of America.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:23 pmSo, in your own words, you are no better than Clinton.
Chicken hawk.
Bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk bawk.
You know Chase, not everybody here likes or loves Clinton.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:23 pmHow dare Cobblestone magazine feature something that only the Right is proud of! There are so many alternatives that could have been featured—anti-war protestors, whistleblowers, environmentalists…and of course no one ever complains when our kids can read about their favorite degenerate musicians, or immoral celebrity. But to have them read facts about the U.S. Army is unconscionable!
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:24 pmSpudge – There isn’t a draft. That’s a difference.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:25 pm“and of course no one ever complains when our kids can read about their favorite degenerate musicians, or immoral celebrity. But to have them read facts about the U.S. Army is unconscionable! ” THIS IS THE BEST POINT OF THE ENTIRE POST.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:26 pm“Your statement is retrograd as a Java man would talk.â€
Comment by gould631 — July 3, 2006 @ 1:17
Because you argue like one of them. War is not a part of the definition of humankind, progress or civilization. Ok, there is been plenty of them. Now, Europe has suffered 2 WW, and they dont like them; I think they have learned that, just as so many other people involved in wars. Even american vets oppose wars, precisely because they have suffered them.
About hollywood. It is a sophisticated medium to make war propaganda, after films they were other less massive tools to exacerbate patriotism and engage wars. Have you seen any president killed in a war, or important figure of some government? No, just poor people who were caught in the middle of a conflict (civilians) or poor, cheated and ignorant people (soldiers). Wake up. Violence has never make both sides equal. Just bring more resentment.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:26 pm“Your statement is retrograd as a Java man would talk.â€
Comment by gould631 — July 3, 2006 @ 1:17
Because you argue like one of them. War is not a part of the definition of humankind, progress or civilization. Ok, there is been plenty of them. Now, Europe has suffered 2 WW, and they dont like them; I think they have learned that, just as so many other people involved in wars. Even american vets oppose wars, precisely because they have suffered them.
About hollywood. It is a sophisticated medium to make war propaganda, BEFORE films they were other less massive tools to exacerbate patriotism and engage wars. Have you seen any president killed in a war, or important figure of some government? No, just poor people who were caught in the middle of a conflict (civilians) or poor, cheated and ignorant people (soldiers). Wake up. Violence has never make both sides equal. Just bring more resentment.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:26 pmI know, you said that you would only serve if there was a draft. You are a chicken shit chicken hawk. I served, what is your lame excuse?
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:27 pm#67-Chase,
You put out for all to see your ignorance with your “list”. Good lord, young man, those are the bullet points that they put on the front of a pamphlet. Your position is akin to saying you know all about the functional characteristics of a car by just seeing a picture of it.
I will help to educate you, though. Unlike you, however, I will defer to the experts. Here’s a little something from one of, if not “the”, most distinguished and honorable military commanders in our history, Dwight D. Eisenhower. You may have heard of him, he was also one of the best presidents your nation has ever seen. I urge you to read this and make the effort to understand what he is saying:
“My fellow Americans:
Three days from now, after half a century in the service of our country, I shall lay down the responsibilities of office as, in traditional and solemn ceremony, the authority of the Presidency is vested in my successor. This evening I come to you with a message of leave-taking and farewell, and to share a few final thoughts with you, my countrymen.
Like every other citizen, I wish the new President, and all who will labor with him, Godspeed. I pray that the coming years will be blessed with peace and prosperity for all.
Our people expect their President and the Congress to find essential agreement on issues of great moment, the wise resolution of which will better shape the future of the Nation.
My own relations with the Congress, which began on a remote and tenuous basis when, long ago, a member of the Senate appointed me to West Point, have since ranged to the intimate during the war and immediate post-war period, and, finally, to the mutually interdependent during these past eight years.
In this final relationship, the Congress and the Administration have, on most vital issues, cooperated well, to serve the national good rather than mere partisanship, and so have assured that the business of the Nation should go forward. So, my official relationship with the Congress ends in a feeling, on my part, of gratitude that we have been able to do so much together.
II
We now stand ten years past the midpoint of a century that has witnessed four major wars among great nations. Three of these involved our own country. Despite these holocausts America is today the strongest, the most influential and most productive nation in the world. Understandably proud of this pre-eminence, we yet realize that America’s leadership and prestige depend, not merely upon our unmatched material progress, riches and military strength, but on how we use our power in the interests of world peace and human betterment.
III
Throughout America’s adventure in free government, our basic purposes have been to keep the peace; to foster progress in human achievement, and to enhance liberty, dignity and integrity among people and among nations. To strive for less would be unworthy of a free and religious people. Any failure traceable to arrogance, or our lack of comprehension or readiness to sacrifice would inflict upon us grievous hurt both at home and abroad. Progress toward these noble goals is persistently threatened by the conflict now engulfing the world. It commands our whole attention, absorbs our very beings. We face a hostile ideology-global in scope, atheistic in character, ruthless in purpose, and insidious in method. Unhappily the danger it poses promises to be of indefinite duration. To meet it successfully, there is called for, not so much the emotional and transitory sacrifices of crisis, but rather those which enable us to carry forward steadily, surely, and without complaint the burdens of a prolonged and complex struggle-with liberty at stake. Only thus shall we remain, despite every provocation, on our charted course toward permanent peace and human betterment.
Crises there will continue to be. In meeting them, whether foreign or domestic, great or small,there is a recurring temptation to feel that some spectacular and costly action could become the miraculous solution to all current difficulties. A huge increase in newer elements of our defense; development of unrealistic programs to cure every ill in agriculture; a dramatic expansion in basic and applied research-these and many other possibilities, each possibly promising in itself, may be suggested as the only way to the road we which to travel.
But each proposal must be weighed in the light of a broader consideration: the need to maintain balance in and among national programs-balance between the private and the public economy, balance between cost and hoped for advantage-balance between the clearly necessary and the comfortably desirable; balance between our essential requirements as a nation and the duties imposed by the nation upon the individual; balance between action of the moment and the national welfare of the future. Good judgment seeks balance and progress; lack of it eventually finds imbalance and frustration.
The record of many decades stands as proof that our people and their government have, in the main, understood these truths and have responded to them well, in the face of stress and threat. But threats, new in kind or degree, constantly arise. I mention two only.
IV
A vital element in keeping the peace is our military establishment. Our arms must be mighty, ready for instant action, so that no potential aggressor may be tempted to risk his own destruction.
Our military organization today bears little relation to that known by any of my predecessors in peace time, or indeed by the fighting men of World War II or Korea. Until the latest of our world conflicts, the United States had no armaments industry. American makers of plowshares could, with time and as required, make swords as well. But now we can no longer risk emergency improvisation of national defense; we have been compelled to create a permanent armaments industry of vast proportions. Added to this, three and a half million men and women are directly engaged in the defense establishment. We annually spend on military security more than the net income of all United State corporations.
This conjunction of an immense military establishment and a large arms industry is new in the American experience. The total influence-economic, political, even spiritual-is felt in every city, every state house, every office of the Federal government. We recognize the imperative need for this development. Yet we must not fail to comprehend its grave implications. Our toil, resources and livelihood are all involved; so is the very structure of our society. In the councils of government, we must guard against the acquisition of unwarranted influence, whether sought or unsought, by the military-industrial complex. The potential for the disastrous rise of misplaced power exists and will persist.
We must never let the weight of this combination endanger our liberties or democratic processes. We should take nothing for granted only an alert and knowledgeable citizenry can compel the proper meshing of huge industrial and military machinery of defense with our peaceful methods and goals, so that security and liberty may prosper together.
Akin to, and largely responsible for the sweeping changes in our industrial-military posture, has been the technological revolution during recent decades. In this revolution, research has become central; it also becomes more formalized, complex, and costly. A steadily increasing share is conducted for, by, or at the direction of, the Federal government.
Today, the solitary inventor, tinkering in his shop, has been over shadowed by task forces of scientists in laboratories and testing fields. In the same fashion, the free university, historically the fountainhead of free ideas and scientific discovery, has experienced a revolution in the conduct of research. Partly because of the huge costs involved, a government contract becomes virtually a substitute for intellectual curiosity. For every old blackboard there are now hundreds of new electronic computers.
The prospect of domination of the nation’s scholars by Federal employment, project allocations, and the power of money is ever present and is gravely to be regarded. Yet, in holding scientific research and discovery in respect, as we should, we must also be alert to the equal and opposite danger that public policy could itself become the captive of a scientific-technological elite. It is the task of statesmanship to mold, to balance, and to integrate these and other forces, new and old, within the principles of our democratic system-ever aiming toward the supreme goals of our free society.
V
Another factor in maintaining balance involves the element of time. As we peer into society’s future, we-you and I, and our government-must avoid the impulse to live only for today, plundering, for our own ease and convenience, the precious resources of tomorrow. We cannot mortgage the material assets of our grandchildren without risking the loss also of their political and spiritual heritage. We want democracy to survive for all generations to come, not to become the insolvent phantom of tomorrow.
VI
Down the long lane of the history yet to be written America knows that this world of ours, ever growing smaller, must avoid becoming a community of dreadful fear and hate, and be, instead, a proud confederation of mutual trust and respect.
Such a confederation must be one of equals. The weakest must come to the conference table with the same confidence as do we, protected as we are by our moral, economic, and military strength. That table, though scarred by many past frustrations, cannot be abandoned for the certain agony of the battlefield.
Disarmament, with mutual honor and confidence, is a continuing imperative. Together we must learn how to compose difference, not with arms, but with intellect and decent purpose. Because this need is so sharp and apparent I confess that I lay down my official responsibilities in this field with a definite sense of disappointment. As one who has witnessed the horror and the lingering sadness of war-as one who knows that another war could utterly destroy this civilization which has been so slowly and painfully built over thousands of years-I wish I could say tonight that a lasting peace is in sight.
Happily, I can say that war has been avoided. Steady progress toward our ultimate goal has been made. But, so much remains to be done. As a private citizen, I shall never cease to do what little I can to help the world advance along that road.
VII
So-in this my last good night to you as your President-I thank you for the many opportunities you have given me for public service in war and peace. I trust that in that service you find somethings worthy; as for the rest of it, I know you will find ways to improve performance in the future.
You and I-my fellow citizens-need to be strong in our faith that all nations, under God, will reach the goal of peace with justice. May we be ever unswerving in devotion to principle, confident but humble with power, diligent in pursuit of the Nation’s great goals.
To all the peoples of the world, I once more give expression to America’s prayerful and continuing inspiration:
We pray that peoples of all faiths, all races, all nations, may have their great human needs satisfied; that those now denied opportunity shall come to enjoy it to the full; that all who yearn for freedom may experience its spiritual blessings; that those who have freedom will understand, also, its heavy responsibilities; that all who are insensitive to the needs of others will learn charity; that the scourges of poverty, disease and ignorance will be made to disappear from the earth, and that, in the goodness of time, all peoples will come to live together in a peace guaranteed by the binding force of mutual respect and love.”
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:27 pm#67 – benefits, including but not limited to:
- insurance and health care benefits
- pension
- promotion opportunities
- various discounts
- GI Bill
- “see the world†type stuff
- etcComment by Chase
Now you’re talking. See, I’m a progressive liberal and agreeing, and you don’t have to question my patriotism or loyalty to America. But the reasons you post are only the SMALL reasons I first joined.
Correct me if I’m wrong, but the main reason was for patriotism and wanting to kick some ass. The second time I rejoined (and reinlisted) was for the reasons you listed. And I have never been sorry or ashamed I did so.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:28 pmSorry, I corrected second line of second paragraph.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:28 pmThe trick is to find some way for them to channel that dickery into something constructive, rather then killing everything in sight.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:31 pmComment by Bruce Gorton — July 3, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
You should hear my applauses. Cant be better put.
#83 Just put the link, man.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:32 pmPatriotism & The Fourth of July
In celebration of the 4th of July there will be many speeches about the young people who “died for their country.” Let’s be honest about war. Those who gave their lives did not die for their country, as they were led to believe but for their government. The distinction between country and government is at the heart of the Declaration of Independence, which will be referred to again and again on July 4, but without attention to its meaning.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:34 pmdo you really think everyone in the military is “ignorant or desperate�
Comment by Chase — July 3, 2006 @ 1:22 pm
Depends on the military and the circumstances. Vietcong was an army which fought for the freedom of its country being attacked by an outsider. Russians in Stalingrad against nazis. The Sandinistas in Nicaragua fought against an oprobious dictator: Somoza. Cubans against Batista. And, yeah, Iraqi´s against US. One thing is to fight just because they told you to, and other, much more different, to fight for your life and your country against invasors.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:38 pminvaders…what an ass. Sorry.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:40 pmThe trick is to find some way for them to channel that dickery into something constructive, rather then killing everything in sight.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — July 3, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
I think we went wrong when we put 6.4 billion pack animals on the planet… Animals who are also predators… Nothing to keep us in check. And as one extreme has simply led to another – we find that we, as a whole, are destroying the planet like a nasty virus.
It won’t stop – as much as I wish, like you, that we would change things – until either we have destroyed the planet, or it has had enough of us. And considering the ramifications of Global Warming, it looks like we are going to lose. (This is my optimistic version :)
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:41 pm#87-Juan,
I apologize for the “bending” of commentor rules but there is no way that you can intelligently or relavently discuss the military industrial complex or any of its sub-issues without first reading that speech for context. It is that important.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:44 pmNatch. Only preteens would be stupid enough think there is anything heroic about living with the lifelong trauma of murdering women and children just so some fat-ass can gas up his SUV. Anyone with an eight grade education is smart enough to know that the whole point of the military is brainwash naive (or below average intelligence) people to steal land and natural resources for the rich. It’s going to take more than a glossy cover to convince most kids to lose a leg or two for Exxon.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:46 pmAre all the Republican Senators daughter, sons, nieces, nephews, grandchildren going to Iraq to fight this phony war on terror : a faceless created enemy after 9/11?
Is fear seeping into the souls of all the Republican children ready to fight against Osama Bin Bush?
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:47 pmBruce G. : “when you start recruiting ten year olds into your war, you lose the ability to have peace, and the only thing that can ever really end a war is peace.” – - Oh c’mon, let’s all live like the Israelis!!
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:54 pmUnbelievable:
You sound like you need to recharge. If you were in South Africa I would suggest the Kruger Park, but out in America I don’t think you really have anywhere quite like it. When you hear the fish eagle’s cry while an elephant browses a tree below, it reminds you of just what you are fighting for, and why we must still have hope.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:54 pmBecause you are preaching about the benefits of recruiting children into something you yourself, are not willing to join.
Comment by Bruce Gorton
There is a street term for someone who does that; chickenhawk. In street terms a “chickenhawk” is someone who hangs around bus stations and train terminals looking for runaways who want to “make it in the big city.” They convince these desperate kids to do a job they are too old, ugly, fat, etc. to do themselves – in essence a pimp. These military chickenhawks are the same – war pimps.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:55 pmWhen I was young, there was a “Army green” crayon in my crayon set. Bastards tried to recruit us 4 year olds!!!
I think I ate that crayon. Metphorically, I’ve digested the armed services.
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:58 pmthere is nothing ‘wrong’ with perpetual war against things not-christian!
July 3rd, 2006 at 1:59 pmWhen you hear the fish eagle’s cry while an elephant browses a tree below, it reminds you of just what you are fighting for, and why we must still have hope.
Comment by Bruce Gorton — July 3, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
I don’t at all disagree with you that this would be a much better existence for all involved if we would exert a little temperence and moderation in our actions. There are some remote areas in America where you are far from civilization and all that exists is the rugged wilderness. Alaska, remote parts of Montana, Utah and Idaho. Some areas of California even. In Alaska we truly have that regenerative wilderness where you can watch bald eages soar over breaching whales and calving glaciers. No elephants though :).
You know, I will give you this caveat… have you ever watched someone out of control hit a brick wall, and if they survived, they wre changed for life – usually for the better? Maybe the humans who survive Global Warming will be wiser. Let’s hope.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:08 pm[...] So, it’s wrong for the Army, the institution that protects the American people, that stands between tyranny and freedom for us and millions of others around the world to publicize. The NY Times can print whatever they want in the name of free speech, but Cobblestone magazine can’t print material that shows how honorable our military is, that might influence young kids to want to serve their country when they get older. Parents and teachers are complaining that the latest issue of a popular magazine for preteens amounts to little more than an early recruitment pitch for the Army. [...]
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:08 pmPunchy: “Metphorically, I’ve digested the armed services.” – - Geeze, talk about your lower G.I.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:10 pmNazi Youth, there we come!
Well, at least in 60 years, there would be a USA Pope in the Chair of Saint Peter…
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:12 pmWhy stop there? The chickenhawks and Bush republicans have to do as much as possible to maintain this new state of perpetual war.
Advertising to younger people, to indoctrinate them into wanting to enlist in the military, is no different a technique than is used by fast food chains. Even if they can’t enlist until they are nearly adult doesn’t matter. They have to have the idea implanted into their brains at as early an age as possible for maximum effect.
There’s no reason why arms can’t be twisted to start promoting military enlistment to children during TV programming. First we start with programs including and similar to “Sesame Street”, then go younger to “Postcards with Buster”, then youngest still with the “children doing things” segment of “Teletubbies”.
Why stop there? We have entire kids’ shows based on toys, so why not shows about military life? Cartoons and live action, about kids who are in the military, fighting other kids in the military. Then give them super powers. And war “time outs” to stop fighting and maiming and killing and raping and torturing and sitting through fake photo-ops with a fake president, so that they can drink Kool-Aid and eat their lunches.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:14 pma bit off topic, but… sam’s talking about this on franken’s show:
Spy Agency Sought U.S. Call Records Before 9/11, Lawyers Say
June 30 (Bloomberg) — The U.S. National Security Agency asked AT&T Inc. to help it set up a domestic call monitoring site seven months before the Sept. 11, 2001 attacks, lawyers claimed June 23 in court papers filed in New York federal court.
why sould that be? hmmm?
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:16 pm105 – why *would* …duh…
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:19 pmwe will take your children whenever it pleases us to do so.
i am working to get all social programs tied to mandatory military service. if you can carry a welfare check to the bank, your kids can carry a gun to fight the non-christians!
if they die, then as my friend says ‘boo-freakin-hoo’…
hahahahha we are own YOU all of you… your children are to be sacraficed to the cause of perpetual war for the homeland!!!!
have a nice day,
ann
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:26 pmCheney: My wife was getting pregnant and I wanted to be there.
Comment by Joe Sixpack
I nominate this line as the most unintentionally hilarious line of the day.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:26 pmDo I hear a second…?
Appealing to preteens is reminiscent to me of the brownshirts of Hitler’s youth party.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:28 pm#100 – Idaho…
Comment by unbelievable
Shhhhh, Idaho is a secret…
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:28 pmMove along people, nothing but neo-nazis to see here…
#82 – Spudge – Thank you for your service.
I don’t have an excuse, nor do I need one. Again, for the last time, military service is voluntary.
#84 – Joe – Yeah, I’ll admit I left those off. I was really only thinking about the tangible benefits. I mean to the list of intangibles add patriotism, discipline, a respect for authority, confidence, etc, etc, etc.
#94 – How about the Dems with kids? Shouldn’t they be serving too?
#97 – So if someone hires a landscaper to mow and manicure their lawn, they are a pussy, a chickenhawk by your estimation? Get a grip.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:28 pm#96
Nothing puts things into perspective like remembering the twin towers collapsing, or the gaping hole in the pentagon. Perhaps then you can remember that an act of war was committed against us, and what we’re really fighting for. Thankfully, the left hasn’t succeeded in subverting the minds of all our young people—as many willing join the military. Would you rather we didn’t have an Army? I wonder if you and many others posting comments here, would actually take pleasure in no one joining the military anymore.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:30 pm#102–”Geeze, talk about your lower G.I.”
NICE. Props for that one.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:36 pmAntagonist, a Sesame Street class specially for you:
Bin Laden, the Arabian, based in Afghanistan: THERE
Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi, based in Iraq: HERE
See? Not the same location.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:37 pm#108 Zooey,
It’s funny ’cause it’s true. He really did try to have his first child after he used up his five deferments and then heard that expectant fathers could get a deferment. It wasn’t just a coincidence; it was an actual attempt to evade having to serve in Vietnam.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:40 pm#111-Chase,
You never “thank” a soldier for their service, it implies that they are “serving” you which is as arrogant as it is disrespectful.
The only correct response in regard to a soldiers service is to honor it and respect it appropriately, however such service warrants. This, young man, is what you do not understand. These concepts are so foreign to you because you choose to be ignorant and your undeserved arrogance causes you to make asinine assumptions.
Open your mind, young man, and listen to the words of wisdom from your own national ancestors. Your current position is monumentally disrespectful to military service and dishonors the sacrifices that so many of your real heroes have made.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:44 pm#115 – Wayne, I have no doubt “Dick” would use conception as an excuse for not serving his country. My thinking was more “in the moment,” so to speak. His wife was getting pregnant and he wanted to be there. As if he were an invited guest….or a third party.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:44 pmI think that, if the only possibility of a defermement would have been losing one arm, we might call him today one-armed hawkeye Dick.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:45 pmEvil Spaniard Retard
Perhaps you should get one of those childrens books where you draw by connecting the dots. Your tired argument only shows your denial of reality, and an inability to think in any kind of logical sequence.
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:51 pmHow about the Dems with kids? Shouldn’t they be serving too?
Comment by Chase — July 3, 2006 @ 2:28 pm
Asking someone to serve in a war they oppose is the same as asking you to abort a fetus you want to keep…
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:57 pmAnti-all,
you mean a children book like “My pet goat”?
July 3rd, 2006 at 2:58 pmNothing puts things into perspective like remembering the twin towers collapsing, or the gaping hole in the pentagon.
Comment by Antagonist — July 3, 2006 @ 2:30 pm
Except maybe remembering that it was Osama who did that and not Iraq.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:00 pmYour tired argument only shows your denial of reality, and an inability to think in any kind of logical sequence.
Comment by Antagonist — July 3, 2006 @ 2:51 pm
He’s doing far better than you. And English isn’t his native language either.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:02 pm#116
Speaking of asinine assuptions, letting a soldier know that you appreciate his or her service to their country does not imply disrespect, or arrogance, or convey that you think they serve you. You feel an appreciation for the job they do, and you let them know. It’s a simple as that. Such concepts as; common sense and simple expression seem to escape you. I suggest you come down from your imaginary superiority, and start living in the real world.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:06 pmAnti-all:
An illegal war is common sense? Now tell me a tale with a fairy, a troll and a dwarf. You only need to seek for the fairy and the dwarf.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:15 pmAntagonist
No. I would rather Armies weren’t needed, but I see that there is a need for them. What I don’t believe there is a need for, is recruiting children to fight in ones armies.
Oh, and 9/11 as building perspective? Not unless your aim is purely destruction and hate. You need to find peace within yourself Antagonist, and then you will find perspective, because right now you have only found blood thirsty blindness.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:16 pm#124-Antagonist,
I was merely expressing what is known to all honorable military commanders. For you to just dismiss it and then attempt to preach your own ignorant position is so insane that it is almost humorous.
You obviously have no honor, nor do you show respect. That’s your problem. Cowards such as yourself are so quick to USE the military for your own selfish purposes and then run and hide when confronted with their foolishness and arrogance. You are despicable and obtuse which is a dangerous combination and one that you would never find in someone with honor.
I’m sorry that the “truth” does not fit your position.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:18 pmAnd, Anti-all:
The basic for common sense is coherency. As stated, in your country, the common sense is to enroll in the military if you’re pro-military. Being pro-military, but having not enrolled, mean that you’re incoherent and thus, you have no base for common sense.
And, as a saying in my country says, more or less, “Common sense is the least common of the senses”. Well, the translation sucks, but maybe you catch the sense (but I doubt it). If not, in short, means “what is common sense for you, is simply rabid madness for all the rest of the world”.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:20 pm#116 – Come on! Are you trying to have zero credibility? At least be intellectually honest. Thanking a soldier for their service is definitely, unequivicably NOT disrespectful. I don’t know where you’re from, or the crowd you run with, but they aren’t anyone I know. And son, my mind is open. I’m completely open to persuasive arguments, not to mention I have no problem admitting when I’ve been mistaken.
#120 – Your analogy misses the mark. What if the kids of GOP congressmen oppose the war themselves? What if kids of Dem legislators support the war effort? What does the political affiliation of their parents have to do with anything?
A fetus has no say in the matter; an 18-year or older child of a congressman does. And anyway, if someone asks you to abort the BABY you want to keep, you definitely can say no – just like if someone asks you to join the Marines (someone, say, like a recruiter) you can say no! (I’m not exactly comfortable comparing abortion on demand with military service – one is honorable, the other despicable.)
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:23 pm#126
You’ll change your tune when suicide bombers start hitting our shopping malls, theaters, sports events, and other public gatherings. But maybe not, You’d have more compassion for the poor guy who blew himself up than you would for the innocent victims.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:27 pmAnn Coulter; as for “yellow cowards”, I don’t see YOUR ass in the army, Put your body where your mouth is before I bitch-slap you into the next year.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:28 pm#47; I was drafted.(Vietnam).
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:33 pm#129-Chase,
Explain to me the basis of your argument as it applies to the military service code. Please, go on and challenge my credibility but if you are going to challenge it, do so with facts and educated knowledge, not your ignorant assumptions.
You keep speaking as if you are an authority and an expert, yet you keep throwing out childish and obtuse positions. You are the most foolish of all fools in that you are such a simpleton that you pretend to argue from a position of authority on an issue that you have no clue on.
Let me give you some perspective – A yellow “support the troops†magnet on the car does not an expert or authority make. Try and think on that one for a while before you expose more of your moronic opinions.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:35 pm#126
You’ll change your tune when suicide bombers start hitting our shopping malls, theaters, sports events, and other public gatherings. But maybe not, You’d have more compassion for the poor guy who blew himself up than you would for the innocent victims.
Comment by Antagonist — July 3, 2006 @ 3:27 pm
Doesn’t this exactly describe the situation in Iraq today? You left our the places of worship by the way.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:38 pmAntagonist,
We’ve had islamic terrorism and I’m with Bruce. You know sh!t about terrorism and fighting against.
And you lose the point. Isn’t being with the terrorists. Is another way of fighting with them, because the Bush way SUCKS.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:38 pmdo you throw the remote and say “damned propaganda!†and ear-muff your kids?
the reason I refuse to pay for TV at this time. and I, for one, pay attention to what my kids watch, play with, and who their friends are. and I WOULD KNOW if he ever had a fascination with guns!
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:38 pm#127 Pitiful Cringing Humanist,
You said;
You obviously have no honor, nor do you show respect. That’s your problem. Cowards such as yourself are so quick to USE the military for your own selfish purposes and then run and hide when confronted with their foolishness and arrogance. You are despicable and obtuse which is a dangerous combination and one that you would never find in someone with honor.
Fascinating. You’ve deduced all of this because I criticized you. You know nothing about me, yet you claim my lack of honor is obvious. All those who know me would claim otherwise. Nothing in my comments would even indicate that I’m using the military for my own selfish purposes, yet you with your lofty ideals can look into my heart and see motive. When did I run and hide Humanist? Could it be that your nose is so high in the air that you can’t see where you’re going, or what you’re doing? I chose to address you with the same tone that you have been addressing Chase, and you accuse me of arrogance? You truly are blind to your own actions.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:45 pmClinton ran overseas and got a deferment as well.
right or wrong – who the fuck are we to ask such a question?
Geez – go to Oxford on a Rhodes scholarship or to vietnam…
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:46 pm#133
The basis of my argument is common sense. When someone does something I percieve is worthy of my thanks, I say “thank you”. Contrary to your belief, there is no inherent disrespect in that. One neednt be an authority or expert to know that.
What proof do I have that “disrespect” is not included with a “thank you”? Never, not one single time in the (easily) hundreds of times I have said “Thank you for your service” have I ever got anything even remotely negative. Most of the kids just smile and nod. If there were offended, if any of them were offended, or took my gratitude as a cut-down, they didn’t voice it. And if it was a cutting and harsh as you make it out to be, I’m sure one of them would have said something.
I think it’s time to admit that, at least on this point, you are completely wrong.
And a little more: there is no “yellow magnet” on my car. I would rather thank servicemen personally, when I meet them.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:46 pm#133
The basis of my argument is common sense. When someone does something I perceive is worthy of my thanks, I say “thank you”. Contrary to your belief, there is no inherent disrespect in that. One needn’t be an authority or expert to know that.
What proof do I have that “disrespect” is not included with a “thank you”? Never, not one single time in the (easily) hundreds of times I have said “Thank you for your service” have I ever got anything even remotely negative. Most of the kids just smile and nod. If there were offended, if any of them were offended, or took my gratitude as a cut-down, they didn’t voice it. And if it was a cutting and harsh as you make it out to be, I’m sure one of them would have said something.
I think it’s time to admit that, at least on this point, you are completely wrong.
And a little more: there is no “yellow magnet” on my car. I would rather thank servicemen personally, when I meet them.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:47 pmAntagonist
I live in South Africa. We have had terrorism from one group or another for years. We have people who kill babies just for the hell of it, and a former VP who thinks taking a shower after sex can prevent AIDS.
Our President is friendly with a nearby tin-pot dictator, and our health minister is a complete and total idiot the likes of which makes Condi look like she should be running Mensa.
Plus we have terrorists all of our own.
Your 9/11, frankly doesn’t impress me. That you are so willing to throw away everything you believe in over that, doesn’t impress me, it shows me that you are weak. Take some time to find peace within yourself and find perspective, and you will see that I am right.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:47 pm#135
Antagonist,
We’ve had islamic terrorism and I’m with Bruce. You know sh!t about terrorism and fighting against.
And you lose the point. Isn’t being with the terrorists. Is another way of fighting with them, because the Bush way SUCKS.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — July 3, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
Yeah right. That’s why we haven’t had another attack since 9/11.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:50 pmYour analogy misses the mark. What if the kids of GOP congressmen oppose the war themselves? What if kids of Dem legislators support the war effort? What does the political affiliation of their parents have to do with anything?
No it doesn’t. Anyone who opposes a war then… whatever. You got my point, but have no valid rebuttal so you try to attack the point.
A fetus has no say in the matter; an 18-year or older child of a congressman does. And anyway, if someone asks you to abort the BABY you want to keep, you definitely can say no – just like if someone asks you to join the Marines (someone, say, like a recruiter) you can say no! (I’m not exactly comfortable comparing abortion on demand with military service – one is honorable, the other despicable.)
Comment by Chase — July 3, 2006 @ 3:23 pm
Hence, you made a valid arguement for pro-CHOICE… the choice to say no as well as yes!
But during a draft, you can’t say no…
You must be a boy. As long as you can’t get pregnant a choice not to have a child is honorable.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:53 pm#136 – I commend your close attention to your kids. If we only had more involved parents…. There is a point when parents can become over-protective (as I’m sure you know) but there is definitely nothing wrong with taking an interest in their activities. Opening children up to all perspectives, well make that age-appropriate perspectives, is an important part of intellectual development and maturity.
#138 – Regardless what I would choose, we all know what President Clinton chose. And I’m not saying that wasn’t a wise decision. The only reason I even brought that up again was to point out the double-standard some have when it comes to draft dodging or serving the country. If you’re going to condemn VP Cheney or Paul Wolfowitz for dodging the draft, then you must also condemn President Clinton.
I would rather condemn neither.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:54 pmI picked up the latest Sesame Street Magazine, inside there is a long article about how the White House came up with pre-iraq war intelligence. The title of the article was: Bert and Ernie’s 1,000 Uses for an Active Imagination
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:56 pmYou’ll change your tune when suicide bombers start hitting our shopping malls, theaters, sports events, and other public gatherings.
Comment by Antagonist — July 3, 2006 @ 3:27 pm
It won’t happen… Your fear is convincing you of irrational nonsense.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:56 pmI would rather thank servicemen personally, when I meet them.
Actually, I would apologize on behalf of the government.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:57 pm#137-Antagonist,
I deduced nothing, but rather extrapolated from your own comments:
How dare Cobblestone magazine feature something that only the Right is proud of!
Comment by Antagonist — July 3, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
As an FYI, this post implies that only the “Right†is supportive of the military and, consequently, soldiers. That, young man, is “using†the military for your own personal/political purposes and is despicable.
Speaking of asinine assuptions, letting a soldier know that you appreciate his or her service to their country does not imply disrespect, or arrogance, or convey that you think they serve you. You feel an appreciation for the job they do, and you let them know. It’s a simple as that. Such concepts as; common sense and simple expression seem to escape you. I suggest you come down from your imaginary superiority, and start living in the real world.
Comment by Antagonist — July 3, 2006 @ 3:06 pm
You wonder how I can call you “arrogantâ€, re-read your above referenced post. Are you now, or have you ever been in the military? Have you commanded men in battle? Are you educated in and familiar with military codes? The position I wrote above does not originate with me, but rather from those of honor who have served, have commanded in battle, and are intimately familiar with military code.
Is there anything that you would like to add or have you wet yourself already?
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:58 pmYeah right. That’s why we haven’t had another attack since 9/11.
Comment by Antagonist — July 3, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
No, not at all. Our borders are wide open. The reality is that your boogeyman is marginal and can only attack once every 5 to 10 years.
July 3rd, 2006 at 3:59 pmI’ll tell you where Cheney and his ilk would have served if they had joined – and with a college education they would have made officer in no time. I worked for a man who graduated college, enlisted in the military as a JG officer, WANTED to go to Vietnam – but was sent to ALASKA and no where near the battlefield. Why? Because he was a privileged white boy, that is why!
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:00 pm#143 – No, I think I made the point – just because a parent publicly supports the war doesn’t mean their child is now obligated to fight that war.
And yes, I’m a guy. And being a male doesn’t prevent me from having a opinion on abortion (but that is an argument for another thread).
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:01 pmThe title of the article was: Bert and Ernie’s 1,000 Uses for an Active Imagination
Comment by Kelso rich — July 3, 2006 @ 3:56 pm
That is hilarious!
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:01 pmAnd being a male doesn’t prevent me from having a opinion on abortion
Opinions are fine – but KEEP them to yourself. ESPECIALLY SINCE YOU ARE A MAN!
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:02 pm#144-Chase,
Avoiding the draft because you object to the “war” or conflict is astronomically different from avoiding the draft because you are afraid to fight in a conflict that you supposedly agree with. One is a stand of principle, the other is the folly of cowards.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:03 pm#141
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:04 pm9/11 was the worse attack on US soil in American history. Innocent civilians were targeted, and you expect us to do nothing? You can put your head in the sand if you want, but in reality a militant Islam is rising, and they have a hate-filled agenda. Is that what you want me to be at peace about? Americans expect their government to protect them. Your internal weaknesses have allowed you to comprimise, and now you expect me to do the same. There’s that old saying “Misery loves company.”
No, I think I made the point – just because a parent publicly supports the war doesn’t mean their child is now obligated to fight that war.
No you didn’t. That wasn’t the point at all. You were being called out for not enlisting, and you decided to say “well, why don’t the Democrats go”. Had nothing to do with anyone’s children. We don’t join this war because we oppose it. You; however, being for it should put your cowardly ass where your big fat mouth is.
And yes, I’m a guy. And being a male doesn’t prevent me from having a opinion on abortion (but that is an argument for another thread).
Comment by Chase — July 3, 2006 @ 4:01 pm
An opinion, but not a decision. You have no right to force anyone to have a child they don’t want.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:06 pmAmericans expect their government to protect them.
now that’s an oxymoron if I every heard one!
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:07 pmmadashell:
@ #147 – I beg you to do that. I sincerely hope you do apologize to them. I have a feeling they will set you straight. Just a hunch, but I would not be surprised.
and @ #150 – You’re probably right. With a degree, they probably would have not seen combat (though that’s far from certain). That makes any efforts to dodge even more difficult to understand.
PS – For what it’s worth, when Joe Sixpack (@ #65) brought up Wolfowitz, he was mistaken. Wolfowitz was not of draft age.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:08 pmHow many veterans do you even know Chase? WELL for your information, I live in a town with MANY, MANY veterans – and I have apologized to those I know. As I have my niece, who joined the army right after 9/11, but BEFORE the war. Do you know what her first impression of Afghanistan was? Bless her heart – she was so concerned about the poverty – the poor people who had and have ABSOLUTELY nothing to do with what happened on 9/11.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:13 pm#158-Chase,
Would you like me to introduce you to some Iraq invasion veterans? The ones that I know not only appreciate being apologized to, but are mad as hell that more people do not do so.
Now, I have to admit that I’ve never met the imaginary veterans that you reference and have a “hunch” about, but neither have you. Yet I suspect that you do not even realize the absurdity of your position in placing yourself on a soapbox to speak for them. The imaginary soldier, that is. Are you really that much of a moron?
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:15 pm#148
How is it that you cannot see your own arrogance? From your young man titles to your authoritive stances, you are offensive to the enth degree. Your entire comments to Chase are dripping with arrogance, hence I addressed you as you have addressed him. Now I’m the one who’s arrogant, because I was testing you to see how you liked it.
Yes I was in the military—AirForce 4 years.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:23 pmI wouldn’t have thought then or now, someone to be arrogant and offensive for thanking me for my service. I’d be willing to bet that most service men and women are not offended by such gratitude. This seems to be only your hang-up Humanist. Stop trying to impose your warped views on everyone else.
#159 – I live in San Antonio. It’s impossible to go anywhere an not run into active duty or retired military. Hell, SA is called Military City.
How many have I come in contact with? I belonged to an organization (before I graduated college) that volunteered regularly at Brooke Army Medical Center (the primary burn unit for the military) and some of the rehab centers that support it. I’ve met so many interesting men and women during my 2 years volunteering there.
Satisfied?
#160 – I would venture that I have met as many, if not more than you, but I’m always willing to meet more.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:24 pmAntagonist
No Antagonist, I do not expect America to just roll over and take it.
I expect your president to try and unify the country, not divide it into “filthy libruls” and “Good Conservative Volk” (The V is on purpose.)
I expect the Congress and Senate to take stock of the event and remain vigilant lest the president use it to expand his powers beyond its original scope.
I expect the companies of America, such as Haliburton, to bid competitively for military contracts, and not screw America’s taxpayers over for those contracts.
I expect those who have been captured to either be treat as POWS or civilian criminal suspects, not to read endless stories about torture, humiliation and further atrocities.
I expect the president and vice president of America to take war seriously enough to not lie to Congress over the reasons for war.
I expect the people of America to grieve the loss, but not trumpet it like it is some sort of sick political point.
I expect the people of America to hold their government accountable for every breach of the US Constitution.
I expect Americans to look at what they are fighting and think “Hell no, we aren’t going to become like that, lets keep our church and state separate.”
I expect all Americans to support the rule of law, and to enforce it even unto the highest level. I do not expect to read stories about how the President is above the law.
I expect to see America defend itself, not decide to attack a country which couldn’t even do that much.
I expect America to be efficient.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:24 pm#131
Ann Coulter; as for “yellow cowardsâ€, I don’t see YOUR ass in the army, Put your body where your mouth is before I bitch-slap you into the next year.
look pal, you can’t bitch-slap me because i could pull your heart out of your chest and be sucking on your leftist aorta in three seconds! i don’t need to be in the army because i can kill more ragheads with my words than my bullets! the dangers of war are for the peons, those too broke, too stupid, too indoctrinated to question their government…
and now, we shall take your poor children right out of high school!!! hahahahahaha
have a nice day,
ann
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:25 pmStop trying to impose your warped views on everyone else.
Antagonist
What part of THINK PROGRESS do you not get?
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:31 pmIs this an attempt to start a Hitler-esque “Bush’s Youth” movement? 9 to 14? Thats is insane! Will we soon have Reserve brigade’s of 12-year-old’s heading to Fallujah? Maybe this is how the army is hitting their recruitment targtes now – by going after preteens.
“Don’t miss next month’s issue when Cobblestone delves into the fascinating world of nuclear weapons, and their devasting effect on the evil Iranian regime!”
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:31 pmOur Constitution: Going, going, gone….
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
#163
Seeing that you live in South Africa, you should turn some of those expectaions a little bit closer to home, and perhaps add a few regarding human rights and racial discrimination.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:33 pm#161-Antagonist,
Congratulations on your service to your country. Where were you stationed? I have many friends in the Air Force, one who rose to the highest rank/honor available, piloting AF1. In fact, he is one of the many of sources for the position (as stated earlier, not MY opinion) regarding “thanking” those in the military for their service. You see, if you went up to him and “thanked” him, he would immediately and courteously respond with: “No thanks are necessary, it was my honor to serve my country.”
But what would he know? Not as much as you, apparently.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:33 pmAntagonist
What makes you think I don’t? My country is a screw-up but it is slowly moving forwards. America is first world but moving backwards.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:35 pmBruce Gorton – Another excellent post!
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:36 pmChase,
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:41 pmI don’t disagree with everything you’ve said, and I don’t necessarily agree with everyone who criticized you. I would like to make one comment. You wrote: “actually, everyone in the army now chose to join the military of their own free will…”
I think “lured” is a more fitting verb than “chose.”
Haven’t you read stories about veterans being denied benefits (medical, educational, etc) because there isn’t enough money?
Haven’t you read about troups being forced to remain in the service when their tours of duty were up?
Chase,
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:42 pmI don’t disagree with everything you’ve said, and I don’t necessarily agree with everyone who criticized you. But I would like to make one comment. You wrote: “actually, everyone in the army now chose to join the military of their own free will…”
I think “lured” is a more fitting verb than “chose.”
Haven’t you read stories about veterans being denied benefits (medical, educational, etc) because there isn’t enough money?
Haven’t you read about troups being forced to remain in the service when their tours of duty were up?
#162-Chase,
So, you have just graduated college, excellent. When does your enlistment into the service start?
Answer carefully because only a coward would so strongly support a “war” and then not be willing to fight. Also, you cannot have “respect” and “support” for something, in this case military service, and then abandon it during its time of need. Last I read, all branches of the military are desperately in need of new recruits. So, when do start your enlistment?
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:45 pm#168 Humanist
You see, if you went up to him and “thanked†him, he would immediately and courteously respond with: “No thanks are necessary, it was my honor to serve my country.
That is a far cry from perceiving those who thank as being arrogant—thinking those who serve—serve them personally, as you have stated.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:48 pmFrom my experience, those who actually go out of their way to thank someone, or to show appreciation, do so out of the best intentions. Most of us can recognize that, appreciate those intentions—including our men and women in uniform.
Adolf Hitler was anti-abortion and believed in never ending wars, so every male child to him was a future soldier to die for the Fatherland > he wanted female children to grow up to produce more males to be soldiers!
Bush and the GOP are anti-abortion and believe in never ending wars, so the cycle of lunacy is repeating in America, just like Nazi Germany in WWII > very sad but true!
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:49 pmBruce Gorton,
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:50 pmWhen I visited the Union of South Africa in a service call for IBM, three of the service engineers were black and two were white. The manager was black, the senior engineer was blackand the remainder of the team were equally ranked. That was in 1981. In numerous other service calls in some of our southern states in the United States of America, same circa, I never saw a black manager and a black in a senior position. Nough said?
#164, You think you know about killing? I learned how to kill in the service(no small thanks to the draft). I learned some slick tricks on setting up booby traps I’d like to demonstrate on you. So come ahead on.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:51 pm#173 – I’ve heard the same stories and those are certainly shameful. The nation has no greater obligation to those who have served.
I still think those that join do so because they have, in their opinion, no better option. As for stop-loss, I don’t agree with that. Right now, I don’t have a better idea on how to fulfill our military obligations without the program, but I don’t think it’s something we can continue indefinitely.
#174 – This is all you have to fall back on. Pathetic. Just move along, really.
Because there is not a draft, I’m not required to serve in the military. What part of voluntary do you not comprehend?
What’s more, the logical game you play (”support for the war = immediate enlistment”) is almost comic.
July 3rd, 2006 at 4:56 pm#177 – Ho Chi Minh,
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:01 pmI have the bamboo(It grows like a weed down here in Florida) and can poop up a storm. Can we set up a few in the Rose Garden, or do you think that Barney would be at risk? Can’t take revenge against a dumb animal… – forget that W has less brains than Barney.
#174-Antagonist,
Ah, I see. I guess I’ll have to give him a call and let him know that he should change his position at your request. I’m certain that he would love to hear that when someone thanks him for his service that he should be grateful. Yes, then I’ll explain to him that his perception of military honor and code is completely out of line and inappropriate. Perhaps he can give you a call so that you can explain to him in detail how his knowledge and experience in the philosophies of the honorable warrior are not up to your “standard”.
I find your claim to have served to be doubtful. You speak of service members like they are YOUR servants, and I let you expose yourself in that regard. You see, the only polite and respectful way to “thank” a member of the service is to say that THEIR COUNTRY thanks them for their service, because that is who they serve. It is an insult to imply or infer that the service is to an individual, or even a select group. This concept is well known within the services and understood by its honorable and dignified members. I find it curious that it seems so foreign to you.
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:02 pm#179, Actually, I got rather good at rigging hand grenades as booby traps, which is more of what I had in mind.
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:08 pm#181 – Talk about disrespect..
Saying ‘thank you’ to someone in uniform is not offensive; questioning a veterans service certainly is.
You have a complex, plain and simple. You have a twisted perception that gratitude is only given to those below you – this is why you are reluctant to thank members of the armed forces.
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:10 pmRepublicans who have wealth never serve in the military, nor their children either, but common GOP members in the South, Midwest, etc end up joining the service out of ignorance! Basically the poor, and lower middle class, end up in the military now, and Bush considers them to be cannon fodder for his imperial wars to seize oil fields/reserves in places like Iraq, and soon in Iran too!
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:11 pm#184 – What about Democrats with wealth? Do their children serve?
I don’t think it has to do with party identification – it has to do with SES. It also has to do with education. If you made the decision as a 14 year old that school is unimportant, you have a greater chance of serving this country.
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:15 pm#178-Chase,
You are a coward! And to hide behind semantics of “voluntary” versus “compulsory†shows that you also have no honor. No person of integrity would vocally support war and then refuse to participate.
The fact that you cannot even see this tells me that you have no perception or understanding of war and the awesome responsibility involved in engaging in such. Re-read the HONORABLE Dwight D. Eisenhower’s speech above before you continue spitting upon his grave.
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:16 pm#186 – Ok. Now go home.
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:19 pm#183
finally, you have come around to the truth of the matter! the slower, the dumber, the poorer the better…just give them a gun and a photo of a raghead and they either kill or be killed. it is a perfect system, a godly system, the american way…
kisses and happy fourth to you and yours,
ann
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:19 pmPost 184 > Democrats of wealth tend to not serve as well, due to economic level being the leverage to be in the military or not! Young people who are unable to find work in America, do tend to join the military out of desperation sometimes! Most do not think about the possibility of being killed or maimed in warfare!
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:21 pm#182, WTF are you talking about? I think you confused my post with someone else’s. I AM a veteran(draftee actually). I have not questioned a veteran’s service cuz I’m one too. I only question the paatriotism of the chickenhawks(Ann Coulter, IRI, Dick(anvil)head, Limpwrist, Bush/Cheney, Karistol, Abrams, Wolfowitz, et al.) who are gung-ho over war but refuse to put their own bodies(or their children) where their mouths are. Yes it’s true, I have NO RESPECT FOR CHICKENHAWKS!!!!!!
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:23 pmand #54 – propaganda? a bit strong dont you think. every time the history channel shows off future “gee-whiz†weapons, do you throw the remote and say “damned propaganda!†and ear-muff your kids?
Comment by Chase
If it was on Disney Channel? You bet.
History channel? No. My kids do see history channel with me and they see the neat things about war (stealth bombers) and the evil side … way too skinny people walking around war torn cities…
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:26 pm#186-Chase,
And let the cowards and fools attempt to smear the honorable with their ignorance and sophmoric arrogance? I think not.
Go ahead, keep arguing about issue for which you have no knowledge and experience and I will keep pointing out your foolishness and stupidity.
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:27 pmInteresting we can have this in our schools for 9 to 14 year olds but the teaching of evolution is off limits. Sounds like “Bush Youth” to me.
Dave S
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:27 pmAnn Coulter > I wish the real Ann would go to Iraq, but she knows only the poor basically are sent to die! If there is a draft, then mid- middle class and upper middle class young adults would find out how horrible war really is under the Bush Regime! The wealthy would continue to refuse to serve in the military!
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:27 pmThat’s why we haven’t had another attack since 9/11.
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:30 pmComment by Antagonist — July 3, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
Just until your government thinks refilling its oil tank.
I do believe that those in the US Congress who back and defend wars should send their children to the front lines first! The day that Sen. Joe Biden’s son is wounded or killed in Iraq, then on that day he can talk about staying the course in Iraq! That goes for Sen. Hillary Clinton too > when her daughter Chelsea goes to Fallujah, Iraq, then I will have respect for Hillary! Same applies to every Republican in the House and Senate!
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:36 pm#195-Jay,
Perfectly stated!
I forget which general said it, but my one of my favorite sayings is: “You cannot lead men into battle from a rear observation post.”
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:43 pmYes Post 196 Humanist > Napoleon of France personally led his troops into battles, so Bush must do the same, or he must resign as Commander in Chief of the Armed Services!
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:47 pmI have to go do errands but I will be back later > take care everybody and have a nice 4th of July in spite of the criminal Bush Regime!
July 3rd, 2006 at 5:48 pmMy day is winding down, to the delight of some cowards and fools that I chased around this thread to keep them from dishonoring and disrespecting some fine people and some sacred philosophies.
On your 4th of July holiday, if you encounter some members of you military and wish to express your gratitude to them, I humbly make the following suggestions:
- If you want to thank them, then thank them on behalf of a grateful nation. Remember, their service is to the WHOLE country, and not just one political party or agenda.
- Honor your veterans by not surrendering that which they fought, and died, for.
- Do not romanticize war, it is insulting and disrespectful to those who have lived through the horror of it.
- Support peace with all your efforts. Never forget that “peace” is the goal of every warrior with integrity.
- Read your Declaration of Independence, Constitution, and Bill of Rights. You should know first-hand what every member of your military has sworn to defend.
May you find the path back to peace.
July 3rd, 2006 at 6:13 pmFormer Navy secretary says Republicans can’t fix Iraq quagmire
RICHMOND, Va. A Democrat seeking a Senate seat in Virginia says President Bush and the Republican-led Congress can’t get the U-S out of the bloody quagmire they created in Iraq.
Jim Webb was President Reagan’s Navy secretary in 1987 and 1988. He’s using the Democrats’ weekly radio address to call on leaders to admit the war isn’t going well and fix the problem.
Webb is one of the most decorated Marines from the Vietnam War. He left the Republican Party over President Bush’s decision to invade Iraq. He’s challenging Republican Senator George Allen.
Webb said some say that speaking out against a war is disloyal to the troops. But he says people should consider, in his words, “what it’s like to be a troop, wishing someone would speak the truth.”
July 3rd, 2006 at 6:14 pmhttp://www.child-soldiers.org/
United States:
“Following ratification of the Optional Protocol in December 2002, the armed forces issued instructions to commanders about their obligations of compliance. Nevertheless, at least 62 soldiers aged 17 participated in US military operations in Afghanistan and Iraq in 2003 and 2004. Approximately 10,000 recruits every year enlist voluntarily at the age of 17 for active duty in the armed forces.”
“In the year to 30 September 2002, 26,755 recruits aged 17 joined the armed forces: 9,870 into the active armed forces (7,699 boys and 2,171 girls), representing five per cent of all new active duty recruits; and 16,885 into the reserve forces (12,141 boys and 4,744 girls), constituting 23 per cent of new reserve recruits.”
“Over 470,000 high school students are enrolled in the Junior Reserve Officer Training Corps (JROTC), a program that they may join as cadets from the age of 14. At over 2,900 secondary schools, cadets attend an elective course taught by retired military personnel. The military provides uniforms and instructional materials, and shares the costs of the instructors with the schools.”
July 3rd, 2006 at 10:02 pmSo 9 year old kids are old enough to start considering a career in the Military? And a guy holding a machine gun (sole purpose, killing humans) is featured on the cover? Righties ask, “What’s the problem?” “What’s wrong with talking to them about some options for their future?’ Okay, if we accept that premise, then they are old enough to be taught a comprehensive sex education class, covering all areas. If we can tell kids about all the awesome weapons we have, for killing massive amounts of people, wow. how cool is that?!? But for some strange reason we just cannot tell them about contraceptives or STD’s, or anything of a sexual nature, because it will just make them turn into promiscuous little monsters, with no other thought but fornication, 24/7. Guns are good, birth control is bad. There is some really messed up thinking going on out there. Not that it matters to them, I’m sure they can explain it.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:43 amI agree, Cyra, wholeheartedly.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:51 amCyra > Bush and the GOP want poor kids to basically grow up to become soldiers to be used as Cannon Fodder for their wars of controlling the world’s remaining oil reserves!
July 4th, 2006 at 1:46 am…Okay, if we accept that premise, then they are old enough to be taught a comprehensive sex education class, covering all areas…”
Comment by Cyra Brown — July 4, 2006 @ 12:43 am
w o w … that is so simple and logical…
how far do you think it will fly with the repugs?…
but, really – preteens should not be thinking about EITHER!
yea… as if…
hey – isn’t it the dr. laura crowd always complaining about letting our children be children, kids are growing up too fast? ( i agree, by the way )… but how does this propoganda square with that attitude?…
rambling… late… g’nite
July 4th, 2006 at 2:00 am{*}–{*}
July 4th, 2006 at 2:18 am===^===
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[...] Preteen magazine makes military recruiting pitch.Think Progress, DC - 16 hours ago… enlistment age limits. I m guessing that pitch will be in the AARP magizine next month. what is wrong with that? not all these … [...]
July 4th, 2006 at 4:48 amWaltTheMan
And that was during Apartheid too. The fact is that South Africa has a severe case of Robin Hood and revenge going on at the moment, and a government which though good on the economy (Our national debt is shrinking, and taxes are being lowered each year) is very bad at spending money. Sure our president has his own jet, and a fleet of cars and all of that, but lets put it this way, we are in the middle of a health crisis and we keep on getting reports that 99% of the money budgeted to our health department is going unspent. Not stolen, not misapropriated, but simply unspent.
The same pattern can be seen in most of our departments, and it is a problem. That said, it is still better then living under the Nats, who spent more time screaming that the civil rights movement was a communist front then actually running the country.
July 4th, 2006 at 6:22 amThis is reminiscent of Starship Troopers.
July 4th, 2006 at 10:16 amIt’s up to us, the parents, to educate our children about the wars our politicians may make our children fight.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:29 pmThe Army should advertise in pre-teen magazines with a picture of a flag-drapped coffin with the caption: “Please join the armed forces, today, we’re losing too many soldiers over there in Iraq and Afghanistan.”
Maybe the Bush twins could stop partying and spend a year or so in one of those two hot spots.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:24 pmOk, let me get this right…..they want to ban any book that mentions gay families, and yet they want literature given to 9 year olds that say war and guns and killing is cool?
What is wrong with this picture?
Hey, didn’t Hitler end up with 9 year olds in his army too? They were Hitler Youth. Brownshirts. Indoctrinated into the war machine. And when the time came the soldiers were dying faster than he could replace them, he recruited the children.
If any….ANY American votes for this political party, they should have their citizenship revoked.
July 4th, 2006 at 10:11 pmThe US wants anyone eager to fight for their personal ‘freedom’ in the Middle East. There are over 20 nationalities fighting under the American flag in Iraq and they’re not doing it because they wanted to get rid of Saddam. They’re doing it because they enlisted themselves to get the only reasonable wage they can find in the damned country or they’ve enlisted because they want to get the US citizenship. So mostly Mexicans, Africans and Asians are fighting this war only because they are poor and have virtualy no other choice but to enlist. Have the senators fight their own war, have the senators sens their own children, have the senators themselves sent overseas, just don’t give them too much body armor!!!
July 5th, 2006 at 5:14 am