“The real victims of Fox News weren’t the liberals
By on Jul 4th, 2006 at 11:30 am
“The real victims of Fox News weren’t the liberals
it attacked but the conservatives who believed it.” — NYT Columnist Nick Kristof on Fox News’ coverage of the Iraq war, 7/4/06
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Far-right Republicans who support the Bush Regime are the biggest dopes on this planet! Anyone who watches FOX News is certified brain-fried or brain-dead > lol.
July 4th, 2006 at 11:39 amAmen to that!!!!!
July 4th, 2006 at 11:55 amPropaganda and psyops campaigns can be difficult if not impossible to detect. Worse it can have devastating effects upon a society…depression, wars, hatred, create radical groups left and right and cause undue stress.
I think Rupert Murdoch is a dangerous hack right along with his Fux un-news and that rag Standard Weekly run by his slimy friend Bill Kristol.
July 4th, 2006 at 11:58 amForgive my simplistic view on this issue, but is not the “real” victim here the American public? You know, “the people”, upon whom your democracy is supposedly based.
How incredibly bizarre it is that the acknowledgment of a news organization’s dubious propaganda is then spun as victimizing only one segment of your society when, in fact, the “lies” affected all of you. And then, just to raise this to the level of insanity, the very folks who promoted and used the propaganda now claim the high perch of victim’s status expecting what, sympathy?
Are you Americans insane or are you just this incredibly stupid?
A news organization LIES to you and the response is: “Gee, it hurt us more than it hurt them.”
Please, the rest of the world is done gawking at the train wreck that your nation has become and grows tired of your immature ranting. Just throw away that what’s left of your freedoms and dignity that you haven’t already surrendered and be done with it. Words such as “freedom”, “democracy”, “inalienable rights”, “equality”, and “honor” have no meaning to you any more.
I am absolutely certain that each and every one of the signers on your Declaration of Independence, without exception, would be disgusted and appalled by what they would see today. I challenge any one of you to argue against that assertion.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:15 pmImpossible to detect?
All the runup to the war was very evident, but the american people was very happy swallowing every gung-ho assertion against Russia, France, Germany, the UN, Annan, El Baradei…
The rest of the world had no other exit that following the angry giant with the bigger guns… the USA. And every idiot rightist leader was eager to use the wave of anger coming from the far rightist GOP of the USA to push his own interests and power.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:18 pmWell, if you don’t like Fox News coverage of the War On Terror, then maybe you will like their coverage of Lieberman taking steps for a possible run as an Independent in the Conn primary election, or Corzine fighting with his own party to straighten out the budget crises in their blue state.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:30 pmthe simple fact that this story is from NYT and (gasp) huffpo means that the people who SHOULD read it won’t, much less give it any credit… unless WSJ, weekly standard or such says the same thing, it’s just spittin’ in the wind…
July 4th, 2006 at 12:34 pmnobody wants to admit they’ve been had…
#4 – I agree with you, Humanist, our founding fathers would be absolutely disgusted by the state of our country. They risked everything, their very lives, to claim independence for this country, and now the power-hungry mad men in control of this country, and the whiny bed-wetter citizens are literally and figuratively throwing that great gift back in the founding fathers’ faces.
Regarding Kristof’s assertion that conservatives were the victims of Fox “News.” Fox viewers are the true “victims’ in this situation. Those sheep sat in front of their televisions and soaked up every word as god’s gospel; they are loyal and true believers. That’s what makes them the victims. Liberals knew all along Fox was spewing vomitus bile, and never believed a word of it, even as we railed against their terrible lies. What truly victimized the entire country was the horrible division created by Fox’s victimization of the conservatives.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:36 pmHumanist,
Are you capable of not lumping 300 million people into one group? Can you grasp the concept that there are people who do not agree with the leaders of this country? You need to go get some help. You need to get off your high horse. WHat country do you live in. I am sure that country, which you personally have a say in everything it does, has never done anything you don’t agree with.
Get a grip. If the whole entire world hated the United States, we would have been attacked by now. But you know what, there are many countries that are going right along with George Bush and friends. Do you go to web sites that are based in Britain and tell those people how evil they are? Do you go to Autralian web sites and declare them to be the lowest form of scum. How about Italian sites. Do you go anywhere else besides here and attack the people that are on your side?
I have never read postings from someone on our side that lumps all 300 million Americans into one group and then attacks everybody before. It really shows how out of touch you are with your knowledge of America and Americans.
Happy 4th of July to everybody but Huanist, since it is only a celebration of the evil America in its book.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:39 pm#7-katy,
Are you kidding? Now, I understand your claim that the rest of your mainstream media outlets will probably ignore this story, but what does that have to do with anything? You merely resign yourself to “having been had”.
Goodness, you Americans have been “had” so much that you are the sluts of the galaxy. And the reason for your acquiescence? Convenience. It’s too damned inconvenient for you to protest, or revolt, or even boycott the products or services of the advertisers on a network that is outright lying to you. America, the land of “Convenience whores”. And that “truth” is blatantly evident.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:42 pmThe Goebbels Propaganda Ministry are victims? LOL! Imagine, poor little Limpwrist, Mann Coulter, Hannity, Oreilly, et al. being victimized.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:44 pmGood point humanist. There haven’t been any protests or boycotts in America. Oh wait, there have? And they did how much good? What was your point?
July 4th, 2006 at 12:46 pm#7 – Exactly, katy. I’ve had this discussion with my dad SO many times. The only news they watch is Fox. The TV is always on when I’m there, and if it’s not Fox, it’s baseball. I dislike baseball on television, but I’m greatful for it now, because it baseball is on, then they’re not watching Fox. I would point out an outright lie or distortion, and dad says all the news is the same and he just likes the way Fox looks. I say, you have a computer, why don’t you get online and do a little research on the subject? He says he doesn’t have time to do that kind of thing, that’s why he watches the news. I say – Dad you’re RETIRED, you have time, please look it up! He says ok…just to shut me up. He’d be devastated to find out he’s been had, so he doesn’t try to find out. *sigh*
July 4th, 2006 at 12:50 pmNo jay I don’t like Fox News and their pro war propaganda. I don’t like being lied to about all the great things that are NOT happening in that illegal war. I don’t need to hear what liars think of Lieberman being a Republican operative wearing a Democratic hat. Heaven forbid someone in Government works to straighten out a budget slashed on a federal level.
Lets see how Fox covers the fact that BUSH told the special prosecutor in the CIA leak case that he directed Cheney to discredit a decorated US ambassador, Joe Wilson for telling the truth. Bush was determined to find that leak just like OJ looking for the killers.
Keep watching FOX newsfotainment, they already have all the lies you already bought into like a fool. Fox, the only US news service that ever went to court to get the right to lie to their viewers, and won. Enjoy your news comrad.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:52 pm#9-Spudge,
I understand completely your frustration that you then direct at me for my “generalizations†and lumping together all 300 million of you batshit crazy effers. But, are you the “United States of America†or are you the “Conglomeration of Independent States of America� The actions of the USA are the responsibility of the whole, not individual states or political parties.
This is a hard truth but a truth nonetheless. In merely pointing it out I will be blasted for not seeing the big picture, or blaming the whole for the actions of the few. Which, ironically, is precisely the problem that you are having. You have all got so caught up in the “us vs. themâ€, partisan mentality that you are able to excuse (in your mind) your atrocities by placing the blame on your fellow citizens.
And just for clarification, is it your expectation that the “world†will come in and save you from yourselves? My friend, if the world has to come in and fix your mess, it will be from the standpoint of the world saving themselves from YOU.
Lastly, I did not realize that Australia had become “the†world power that now dominates and manipulates the rest of the world. But thanks for the tip.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:55 pm#12-Kermit,
Gee, I guess you all have done everything you can. It’s a good thing that your founding fathers did not have such overwhelming obstacles or such risks as those that you face.
July 4th, 2006 at 12:58 pmGot it Humanist. None of us are individuals by virtue of our citizenship.
If the name of our country were different, we would be individuals, but alas each of us is responsible for the actions of everyone here. If only we lived in a dictatorship we would be spared your harsh judgement.
Perhaps you should go to the majority voting bloc at redstate.org and convince them to change their ways instead of wasting your time with ineffectual cowards like us.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:05 pmHumanist,
Once again, you are telling us here, at this site, posting in these forums, sh!t we already know. Go to a right wing site and give them a taste of what you have to say. Most of us here have been banned at those sites for saying the same sh!t you are. You are telling us anything new, other than attacking us with our own words. You are a self righteous bastard, who still won’t tell us what country you are in.
And for you information, because you want to blame everything on the US, Australia in in on George Bush’s plan. So is Italy and others. George Bush and friends are part of a larger plot, which is on a global scale. Do you remember George H W Bush preaching about a “New World Order” what do you think the term “Globalization” is about, commerce.
You need to wake up my friend or you to will be inthe same boat we’re in.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:09 pmIf I was a con-artist I would target FOX viewers. They’ll buy anything.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:12 pmHumanist in the same boat we’re in? I think Humanist believes if such a fate befell him, he would pick up a musket and charge the gates of government, just like our founding fathers, and set everything right.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:13 pmMaybe Humanist would have us throw George Bush’s tea into the harbor.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:20 pm#17-Kermit,
Would you like some cheese with that whine? My goodness, you refuse to take responsibility and instead just blame others. Do you even understand your system of government? There is no distinction between “republican america” and “democrat america”. You cannot remove the responsibility just because its inconvenient for you.
This is the truth that you all ignore. I point it out to you and you act like the very pundits that you supposedly despise and attempt to attack the messenger with baseless accusations all the while avoiding the real issue. I’m sorry that you find the responsibilities of your freedoms to be too daunting.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:23 pmHumanist, why are you still here? Go start a revolution. I told you you’re wasting your time with us. Now go away. I’m sure you can start a revolution elsewhere.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:26 pm#20 & #21,
Yes, I will charge the gates with a pen, or a sword, or a musket if it comes to that. My values are not for sale, it appears that yours are going out on the cheap. And why not throw the metaphorical tea into the harbor? What are you afraid of?
If blogs were around 230 years ago, I can only imagine what “support” you would have given your founding fathers. From what I can see, you would have just been whining about this and that and blaming others all the while just going along with King George’s atrocities. I definitely don’t have to worry about getting you both pens for your birthday because even the thought of taking a stand makes your hands quiver so that you would not be able to sign on to anything as honorable as a Declaration of Independence.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:31 pmHumanist, why are you here whining and blaming others?
July 4th, 2006 at 1:34 pmHuamnist,
Actually, nobody has attacked you. I was going to start my last post with “Hey dickhead”, but I changed it. We understand fully that George Bush is giving ALL of America a bad name. But, we also live in reality and understand that grabbing our pitch forks and running to the gates of the White House would go absolutely nowhere. We understand our rights and know how they are being stripped away. We understand that.
We also understand that you do not live in the United States, but you know how everything here works. So, get the fvck over here and start the revolution since you are so prepared. Otherwise, you are a left wing troll on a left wing site attacking left wingers using left wing talking points. From my point of view, that makes you slightly crazy.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:35 pmLet’s see…..here in America, we’ve known of instances of spying, lies, power grabs, propaganda, abuse, torture, suppression, occupation, division, negligence, apathy, treachery, deception, murder…and all that’s from our side. All that in the space of about eight years from people I was suspicious of from that fateful day of Election Day 2000 when a strangely ‘confident’ Bush said to the media:’Oh, I’m NOT gonna lose.’As if he KNEW SOMETHING FAVORABLE was in the works for him. And I’ve been waiting,protesting and writing and calling and seething ever since. Wanting to do what the Constitution commands me as a free citizen to do, and hoping for congressional resistance and relief, but instead, witnessed a congressional giveaway of power that would set Benjamin Franklin’s bald topper ablaze. To the degree that we are due a wakeup call, I pray that it doesn’t come in a destructive form we can’t recover from.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:38 pmhahaha…i am not a victim! i can now shit out hundred dollar bills!
you silly liberals will never get it. we own you; you are merely the flesh needed for our machine… you are merely the fertilizer for our empire!!!
hehehehe
have a nice day!
ann
July 4th, 2006 at 1:39 pmzooey – “i feel your pain”… i’m the black sheep in my family, the lone librul…
yesterday was another “test” – we all gather at the family lake lot, fireworks from the boat (really cool!)… my very righty brother-in-law started in again with one of his “humorous” generalizations – this time a racial slur… he is retired state cop, had to deal with some nasty people in his day, so i cut him some slack… but this time i looked right at him, said “stop – just don’t even go there”, and he backed off, gracefully… then brought up something worthwhile, but he thought for sure i’d go for the bait – “what do you think about the space program, going to the moon…?” we bothe agreed that the money should be put to better use, though for somewhat different reasons… it was a good, productive argument…
by the way – my own dad died in june ‘01 – a good old fashioned republican, listened to rush, but watched 60 minutes religiously… at times i wish he were around to give council on this mess – i think he’d agree that the country is in dire straights… he was plenty pissed off at clinton – cause rush told him so – but i can’t imagine he would actually agree with this fool in the white house… he went before fox got to be so popular, but, sorry to say, he’d probably be a fan also…
“likes the way it looks”??? heh… it give me a headache, like watching a hyper kid running around yelling!
Happy Independence Day, ALL!
July 4th, 2006 at 1:42 pm#26-Spudge,
Trying to institute change is EXACTLY what I am trying to do. Convincing you all to stand up and do something is precisely my goal. If it comes to a revolution, then I will be there with you gladly putting whatever is necessary on the line for such a noble and righteous cause.
And I do disagree with your sit-and-wait approach. Too many people have already died and too many people are suffering because of the actions of your nation. That innocent Iraqi child that was blown into unrecognizable bits yesterday is the price of your “patience”. You seem to think that is a small price and I cannot imagine a higher one.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:45 pmHumanist, you lost my respect. You expect to institute change by coming to a blog and whining and blaming others? That is truly pathetic. Innocent Iraqi children are dying and this is the best you can do? And don’t give us this “I am doing more than you know” crap. Whatever you are doing, you are failing miserably. The only thing you are accomplishing is making yourself feel better by insulting others.
Go do something productive.
July 4th, 2006 at 1:55 pmGoodness, you Americans have been “had†so much that you are the sluts of the galaxy…
Comment by Humanist #10
Humanist,
You make a very good point here…
…It’s a damned shame that people in Indonesia, Thailand, or South America (to name a few)…
…have to show Americans how to be Americans…
…they do it every time they take to the streets to demonstrate against the injustice (of the G-7) or their own governments…
…by and large Americans are so complacent and selfish…
…that we tolerate the racists, bigots, and conservative inbred TRAITORS in our families, neighborhoods and government…
…we ARE American who*es…
July 4th, 2006 at 1:59 pmThanks, katy. I know what you mean about the way Fox looks. It makes nervous and twitchy just to look at it, let alone what they’e saying.
My dad is a retired Judge, while he’s always been conservative (a true one), it’s only been the last few years that he’s gone over to the dark side. That’s why I tear my hair out about it. I tell him I know he used to have a few liberal ideas because we talked about gay marriage being a non-issue, and being concerned that cutting back on certain social programs leading to big problems for families who need that support. I worked for him when he was a lawyer, and we did a couple adoptions for gay couples. NO problem with it back then. But things changed, and I trace it back to 9/11. That shook everyone’s world, but I saw a real change in my dad around that time, because that’s when he started watching Fox and Bill O’Reilly.
I’m avoiding family this 4th of July, because I’m too angry about the state of this country, and ripe for argument. It’s best to stay away. The argument I had with my dad after Katrina almost ruined our relationship.
I’m sorry you lost your dad. I’m sure you’d rather have him here, but are you glad he never saw 9/11 and what happened to us afterward?
July 4th, 2006 at 2:00 pmWe need to assert our allegiance to the human race, and not to any one nation. – Howard Zinn
July 4th, 2006 at 2:01 pm#31-Kermit,
From what I’ve seen, losing your respect should be considered a badge of honor.
You are a fool, and a coward. You want me to come in and fix it for you? You probably wouldn’t survive my solution. And if you think that your life is somehow more valuable than that of an Iraqi child’s, well, I have a reality check for you.
If the American “resistance” is made up of a bunch of Kermits, then you are already lost.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:01 pmHow fvcking dare you say something like that about how I supposedly think. Go fvck yourself asshole.
I was trying to converse with you, but that generalization just put you into the troll category for me.
Fvck you.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:03 pm#36-Spudge,
That truth hurt a little bit now didn’t it. No greater pain than that of that Iraqi child’s though, I can guarantee you that.
You preach patience. You want to wait until yet another election to see if maybe things will change, like you did for the last election.
Meanwhile, people, HUMANS, are dying at your hands. So you tell me, Mr. Sanctimony, how many deaths are “acceptable” for you during this time of wait-and-see?
July 4th, 2006 at 2:10 pmHumanist – Actually, I live far away from the closest major city (Seattle), but I do PAY ATTENTION to the Navy and what they are up to. I live across from a munitions holding area – meaning anything going to Bremerton or Bangor (Navy land), they have to drop their munitions off there. I am working very hard with friends of mine to persuade the Navy to have an open forum with the people – which they DOWNRIGHT refuse to do. There has NEVER been an environmental impact study done. I’m talking missiles, I’m talking depleted uranium – etc….It is FRIGHTENING. If NOT for the Navy, I would be living in PARADISE.
As a side note – Judge bars shrill Navy sonar
July 4th, 2006 at 2:10 pmThe Navy is forbidden to use an intense form of sonar — known to have spooked Puget Sound orcas — during exercises this month in the Pacific, a federal judge has ruled
Its not just the Iraqis – how about the DEATH OF AFRICA?
July 4th, 2006 at 2:12 pm#35 No, Humanist, I do not want you to come here and fix things. If you did that you would make things worse. I want you to go away and take your childish taunts elsewhere. If you went to the heart of red america in person and tried this you would be in for a shock. You won’t do that because you are a coward and a fool. If this is the best you can do you are truly pathetic. You are not instituting change, the best you cand do is go back to wherever it is you think people are free and talk about how much you hate others.
Now go away for the last time.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:16 pmpeople in africa aren’t white, aren’t christian, and are not living on top of oil fields…next question #39…
kisses,
ann
July 4th, 2006 at 2:18 pmYou probably wouldn’t survive my solution.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:25 pmComment by Humanist — July 4, 2006 @ 2:10 pm
Wow. That is really human, Humanist.
mAnnie, South Africans (Afrikaneers) are white, christian (even protestants!) and live in top of mountains of DIAMONDS :O. Why not invade South Africa just after Iran and North Korea?
/Sarcasm Off
July 4th, 2006 at 2:27 pmHumanist is a provoker, fellas. He has been here before and picked on everybody proposing revolutions, boycotts, and not paying taxes. I think he has some good points, but then he pushes and pushes and pushes and it is really becoming annoying.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:29 pmI think Ann Coulter here is just sarcastic.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:32 pmThe problem Humanist is that there is NO TRUTH in this statement:
You are a you low life piece of sh!t. If you think that I don’t care about a human life. It shows that you know nothing about me, but are willing to say stupid sh!t to try and make yourself feel better about being a worthless ass wipe.
I am done with you. Now, fvck off and don’t bother addressing me anymore, because you will be just talking to yourself. Asshole.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:33 pmI’m sure you’d rather have him here, but are you glad he never saw 9/11 and what happened to us afterward?
Comment by Zooey aka Zookeeper — July 4, 2006 @ 2:00 pm
thanks, zoo… funny – he and i butted heads all the time, especially my teen hippie years ( a crew-cut-bow-tie-ex-navy-lieutenant, imagine that), but came to good terms the last 20+ years (i grew up, he mellowed out)…but yes, i’m glad he’s missed all this mess, sometimes anyway… i like to imagine that he’d be as pissed off as i am – but i also realize that is pretty much another pipe dream… it’s ok…
July 4th, 2006 at 2:33 pmhttp://my.earthlink.net/article/nat?guid=20060704/44a9e7c0_3421_1334520060704-1825738342
July 4th, 2006 at 2:35 pmThese homeless veterans are the vic’s of Fox and Bush’s propaganda
I was trying to converse with you, but that generalization just put you into the troll category for me.
Fvck you.
Comment by Spudge_Boy #36
Yo Spudge,
I think Humanist is trying to say that…
…This isn’t politics as usual…
…people are dying…
…most of us here (including you AND HUMANIST) are sick about that…
…but we need to channel our energies into synergies…
…not divide “ourselves” like the TREASONOUS moonbats, IRI and puny hermaphrodites would have us be…
July 4th, 2006 at 2:35 pmRemember growing up and being taught about the German atrocities and how the population, for the most part, sat quietly by and allowed them to happen? Or how the Soviets who saw their fellow citizens “disappeared” and oppressed and yet remained still and complacent? Do you remember wondering how “good” people could sit idly by and allow their tacit approval for such heinous crimes to happen?
Look around America and find your answer.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:38 pmBTW,
July 4th, 2006 at 2:38 pmclick on ann coulter’s name and you find it is james (buck fush)
He’s just having fun….
Meanwhile, people, HUMANS, are dying at your hands. So you tell me, Mr. Sanctimony, how many deaths are “acceptable†for you during this time of wait-and-see?
You are a hard man Humanist. Perhaps too hard, most of the people here are on our side. Although I hasten to add, I agree with you in principle, that Americans with votes have a greater responsibility than we grubby foreign 2nd class citizens.
I poke and prod the good guys and savage the occasional bad guy, but I personally think you are over doing it here. Just a tad … and it’s a holiday too.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:39 pm#44-Juan,
You’re damned right I annoying. And I will be in your face until you stop the killing and the torture and the human rights abuses. Kermit tells me to go to “red” america to try and stop your heinous actions. Where is that, specifically, by the way?
July 4th, 2006 at 2:43 pmI think humanist is really a right wing Bush supporter, and comes here to poke and prod, hoping that — as he says — “you won’t survive my solution.”
Bush supporters would like nothing better than for us to give up the moral high ground. Remember, we turned this country around after Vietnam, we can do it again.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:44 pmWell said, big papa.
Humanist is too vocal, trying to awake the USA people, insulting the already awaken.
I, for me, and as a foreigner, also see the USA people (sorry for the generalization) too polite. I know that in there is a great activist history in your country, but too often is a fringe one. When you had demonstrations of thousands of people against the war in your country, there where around the world (and not only in the Old Europe), a lot of demonstrations far bigger then the USA ones. When in your country only Cindy Sheehan has dared to protest the President itself in the Congress with a T-Shirt, she was alone, and was scorted out. In our country, we had a good couple vocal people (Known actors, philosphers, etc.) in Congress heckling our President in the runup to the war. Not respectful? Well, our President, as yours was the first not respectful with the laws and Constitution.
Some emails to your congresists are fine, but direct action (I know that a lot of the readers here have do direct actions and participated in demonstrations, etc. To the NSA people: I’m not advocating crimes or violence here), is better.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:47 pm#46-Not addressing Spudge because he took his ball and went home,
Call me any name you want if it makes you feel better. However, you do EXACTLY what I predicted in my comment #15, hurl baseless insults yet ignore the issue. So, why not just answer the question – How many deaths are “acceptable” while you wait-and-see what happens?
July 4th, 2006 at 2:48 pmthe simple fact that this story is from NYT and (gasp) huffpo means that the people who SHOULD read it won’t, much less give it any credit…
July 4th, 2006 at 2:53 pm======================================
Huffpo’s Arianna Huffington seems to be doing her best G Bush impression.The site deletes posts that question HP policies,attacks the messenger,allows terms -of-service-breaking trolls to run wild in order to increase comments and traffic,and offers falsified blogs.
This site and others are clearly superior to that Jerry Springer Show.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — July 4, 2006 @ 2:47 pm
Are you really a spaniard? If so condolences on the world cup:-(
So, why not just answer the question – How many deaths are “acceptable†while you wait-and-see what happens?
Clearly no deaths are acceptable, but what do you expect these people to do? Some of them are involved in direct action, they are all awake to the danger their country (and by extension the world) faces.
You are articulate and clever, your talents are much better spent addressing the borderline fascists in public forums. Not for the facists, but for those on the sidelines watching the exchange. Everytime you get the better of one of the “bad guys” logically, a few more people see the light.
Provoking those who have largely seen the light on the other hand is retrograde. As evidenced by spudgboy storming off.
July 4th, 2006 at 2:56 pmComment by Steve53 — July 4, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
fyi – my “(gasp)” comment was aimed at those fox-bots who would disregard huffpo as librul irrelevance… i don’t visit it enough to have noticed your gripes, but when directed there, have not been disappoiinted… just sayin’
July 4th, 2006 at 3:02 pmWell, gosh, it seems I’ve upset many here with my frank and uncompromising approach. The realities and truths that I address are too uncomfortable or impolite for this “civilized” conversation.
I guess that I’m just an outdated idealist. When I first read, at an age when I could understand, the Declaration of Independence I was in awe. The opening paragraphs, or salvos if you will, were the most eloquent and beautiful encapsulation of what values a civilization should operate under that it brought tears to my eyes. Do you remember this:
We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness. –That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed, –That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness. Prudence, indeed, will dictate that Governments long established should not be changed for light and transient causes; and accordingly all experience hath shewn, that mankind are more disposed to suffer, while evils are sufferable, than to right themselves by abolishing the forms to which they are accustomed. But when a long train of abuses and usurpations, pursuing invariably the same Object evinces a design to reduce them under absolute Despotism, it is their right, it is their duty, to throw off such Government, and to provide new Guards for their future security. —Such has been the patient sufferance of these Colonies; and such is now the necessity which constrains them to alter their former Systems of Government. The history of the present King of Great Britain [George III] is a history of repeated injuries and usurpations, all having in direct object the establishment of an absolute Tyranny over these States. To prove this, let Facts be submitted to a candid world.
All men are created equal and have equal rights. Do you see the beauty in that? It does not say “all citizens of this land” or “all americans”, it says “all men” meaning all of humanity. So I come to challenge you on these ideals, and all I get is that I’m too harsh, or that I’m preaching to the choir. The problem is, the choir is asleep and will not wake up.
As people – men, women, and children- continue to die and suffer as a result of the direct actions of your nation, I cannot sit idly by. I cannot wait for your “political” machine and sit and wait while the blood of my brothers and sisters flows in the streets. How many more people are going to be allowed to be murdered, what IS the acceptable number in your eyes.
There are those that would criticize me for “attacking” you on this wonderful holiday, a day of remembrance of one of the most courageous and bold efforts for freedom in the history of mankind. But I have to argue that today is probably the most appropriate day that there can be. For all men, all of mankind have the inalienable right to the freedom to live. Your country and nation is actively and wrongly stealing that right from people at this very moment and this can be tolerated no longer.
So I will not delude myself into believing that I am a great man like any of those courageous souls that you call your founding fathers, but I will borrow a little something from them. On this day, July 4, 2006, I issue a Declaration of Independence from the Oppressive and Murderous ways of the United States of America.
July 4th, 2006 at 3:24 pmOn this day, July 4, 2006, I issue a Declaration of Independence from the Oppressive and Murderous ways of the United States of America.
Honestly I’m with on all of that, as individuals though our options are limited. Check out the thread “task of winning hearts and minds” and respond to moonbat. There is a guy who deserves an articulate savaging, I’m not up to it tonight though.
July 4th, 2006 at 3:28 pmSo I will not delude myself into believing that I am a great man like any of those courageous souls that you call your founding fathers,
Comment by Humanist #60
Humanist,
…this is one of the troubling dichotomies of the American facade…
…”founding fathers” refers to rich, white, male, slave/property owners…
…who saw blacks as 3/5 ths of a human being and denied poor whites and women those “inalienable rights”…
…and TODAY’s COWARDLY, deserter/shirker/awol/liar/thief-in-chief…
…offering platitudes and rhetoric to stupid captive military sheep at Fort Bragg…
…on Independence Day in a country that is no longer FREE nor “independent”!!
July 4th, 2006 at 3:37 pmComment by Steve53 — July 4, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
fyi – my “(gasp)†comment was aimed at those fox-bots who would disregard huffpo as librul irrelevance…
Comment by katy
July 4th, 2006 at 4:02 pm===================
I thought as much.Thanks for the clarification,Katy.
Humanist, may I ask where you are from?
July 4th, 2006 at 4:20 pmAll I have to say is “Humanist” your words of truth bring tears to my eyes. Yes, it hurts.
July 4th, 2006 at 5:54 pmWOW, that’s some bullshit view of being victumized. That conservatives are so stujpid to believe what fox news feeds them doesn’t make them victums, just stupid, or more correctly, willfully ignorant. A conservative will unquestioningly believe whatever and whoever feeds them what they want to hear, i.e., whatever falsehoods support their paranoid, malicious, constipated life-view.
as usual, kristoff is full of shit.
July 4th, 2006 at 6:32 pm.
hey humanist, i live in australia…and i’ve lived in america.
you want to know the difference between them? almost nothing, except roughly half of white australians (>90% of the population) are wannabe-english and roughly the other half are wannabe-americans.
how’s THAT for a generalization? oh, is that offensive? sorry to offend you with my “frank and uncompromising approach”.
australia has the same problem as america, it’s just not as well-developed yet – there’s a creeping conservatism here that’s tinged with a radical christian element (family first party), there’s a blatantly dishonest party in power (how blatant? they call themselves the “liberal party”, though they are nothing of the sort), and there’s a toothless opposition party that can’t find a message and keeps trotting out walking, talking psychoses in the guise of party leaders. and there’s a complacency here that has allowed john howard to serve as prime minister for longer than anyone else in history, despite the fact that most australians (the ones i meet, anyway) don’t like his policies — except for the economic ones, tellingly. people vote their pocketbooks over all other issues, even in australia.
were you out in the streets last week protesting the new labour laws, humanist? how do you feel about rupert murdoch being given award celebrating him as the most important australian in the last century, despite the fact that he renounced his citizenship in 1985?
sure, you can argue that americans are squandering a very valuable gift from their forefathers: the freedoms proclaimed by our declaration of independence, and given us by our constitution and bill of rights. but nobody chooses where they are born, which is something i’ve had to remind a few people in australia — people that would blame me for being an american, for screwing up the world, for not personally stopping bush and putting an end to these atrocities. yes, this ridiculous stuff definitely happens (ironically, i was actually born in australia. but i still consider myself an american, having lived there for more than 30 years).
my guess is that being born into freedom rather than having to fight for it inevitably leads to complacency. it’s natural to value something you earned more than something that you were given (wonder why those immigrants love america and its freedom so much?). so what’s happening now may serve as a good thing. maybe americans will have to fight again for their freedom, and be reminded of what a precious commodity it really is.
for a while, i absolutely hated bush and all of his ilk. but i’ve come to the conclusion that maybe bush was exactly what america needed — a threat to the rule of law and a hard look at how easy it could be to lose that freedom. not that i want that, by any means. but if it lights a fire under my complacent, freedom-loving ass, then it can’t be all bad. i certainly didn’t have this passion for freedom and recapturing american ideals before bush came along.
so, i’ll tell you what — you do all you can in australia to get rid of johnny howard, the bush-enabler that he is, and i’ll go back to america (in october is my plan) and do all i can to get rid of bush. deal?
July 4th, 2006 at 8:52 pmgood food for thought, rex… thank you for that…
July 4th, 2006 at 10:11 pmWhen will we rid our society of the right-wing propoganda machine that has enabled:
1.) The impeachment of a President about lying about an extra-mairtal affair.
2.) A Presidential election stolen by the Supreme Court.
3.) An illegal, pre-emptive war.
Fox News, like their radio colleagues, makes victims of us all.
There was a reason for the Fairness Doctrine.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:13 am#67-Rex,
I’ve never been to Australia, but I watched Crocodile Dundee. Are you all a bunch of Micks?
(that was intended in humor, by the way)
You make some salient points and I understand the angle you use to accept what is going on, that of bush riding the country and its values into the ground so that it will be forced to rebuild and rise again. If the USA’s insanity only affected those within its borders then one could comfortably take such a position as an outsider. As we know, such is not the case.
The 100,000 plus (and probably much more) dead Iraqis represents the largest atrocity to humanity since the holocaust. Yes, Vietnam was despicable and probably even had more civilian carnage. Yet the reason Iraq is even worse is that AMERICANS SHOULD HAVE LEARNED THE FIRST TIME! Therefore, the Iraq invasion abomination is a sin against humanity that cannot be softened with the excuse of ignorance.
One point that you made really needs to be expanded upon, that of the populace voting with and for their pocketbook. What is most heinous, and deeply disturbing, is that American’s now not only vote for their pocketbook, but they now hide behind it as a means of avoiding their responsibility. Why do you not see the mass protests of the 60s, or the sit ins, or any sort of substantial peace movement whatsoever? The reason being, they cannot “risk” losing their SUV, or second home, or the week’s worth of food that they consume every single day, or their 52″ flat screen TV with the surround sound system. Because of that complacency, and indifference, and warped perspective, another innocent child will die a horrible death in the next few minutes due to the explosion from an American bomb. And, to make matters worse, an American defense contractor will then make another hefty profit selling a replacement bomb to the American military that will, in turn, kill more innocent people.
Yet the Americans will sleep soundly tonight in their nice warm beds amongst their grotesque opulence, and they will awake tomorrow and self-righteously claim that they are the beacon of civilization and freedom and liberty. All the while another innocent Iraqi child will be violently and maliciously exterminated in their name, with their bombs, in an invasion that they ALREADY KNOW to be based on deception and dubious motives.
The face of evil is painted red white and blue, and their willful ignorance and inexcusable complacency is unforgivable.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:56 amPost 67 Rex > I like your thoughts on America versus Australia > both have bad leadership, and both need NEW leadership badly!
July 5th, 2006 at 2:01 amHumanist – I take great offense to your lumping every American together. That is just not fair. Or right. Big money and greed is not just exclusive to this country. I am very ashamed of my government, and frankly I do WHAT I CAN. And everyone I know does too. I do my best to boycot. And I do my best to inform others of the truth. So please stop accusing us of not doing enough. If I had the means – I WOULD DO MORE!
July 5th, 2006 at 2:13 amHumanist – furthermore, more than 60% of this country are just as disgusted as you.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:15 amfirst – thanks katy and jay for your comments.
next – so, humanist, just what country do you live in, then?
you still make sweeping statements that are unfair. americans should have learned the first time? well, although i agree, there is this revisionist history making the rounds (right-wing) that says ‘we would’ve won vietnam if it weren’t for those hippies’. you’re missing the point, humanist. there is a culture war being waged in america, and unfortunately the ones that declared this war are the ones in power now. you seem to think americans can and should just rise up and take it back. but that would take an admission by a majority of americans and force them to face up to a difficult truth: america is broken. most americans, as long as they can go fill up their suv’s and go to blockbuster to rent diehard 3, are either unwilling or unable to make that connection.
take my own actions, for instance. i decided to move to australia in march of 2003, and my decision was a direct result of this idiotic war. in retrospect, is that a patriotic decision? no. i decided that america was broken and i had no hope of trying to fix it (a desparate feeling you might find common amongst americans), so i left. however, in living outside of america i saw it from a different viewpoint. americans can’t give up on america — they don’t have a choice like i did. i’m finding that after 3 years of being away, i don’t have a choice, either. i love america, and hate to see what’s happening to it, which is why i’m going back to fight for it.
you are correct in stating the overwhelming influence america has on the rest of the world, but you are incorrect in accusing americans of being complacent, indifferent or warped. that’s a sweeping and unfair generalization. i talk to people from the u.s. very often and i can tell you that what you contend is not the case. there is a great concern there and a willingness to make a change. but churchill was right about america in that it’s like a great big machine — it takes awhile to get it running, but once it goes, it is an unstoppable force. even in the 60’s, as you say, this was the case. lest we forget, the vietnam war didn’t end until 1975.
but i should remind you, this ain’t the 60’s, friend. there was no internet in the 60’s, there were only 3 channels on tv. what i’m saying is people were inherently more connected in their communities because they didn’t have these boxes giving them an excuse to stay inside and absorb the media — media which, incidentally, pipes unending amounts of propaganda into their brains. all of this propaganda creates a truth deficit; no one knows what the truth is anymore. nor do americans have as many friends and neighbors, tangibly there to say, “this is a lie, a colossal mistake, and we need to get out and stop it.”
and the republicans do deserve credit where credit is due. they milked 9/11 for all it was worth, goaded the american public into fear, and made them feel helpless and paralyzed. i cannot emphasize this enough: the hysteria of 9/11, followed by the nationalism-disguised-as-patriotism deluge and the conflation of the terror threat still hangs over the american public like a stultifying mist. and for those that speak out against this malfeasance, it takes only the strategic use of the words ‘patriot’ or ‘traitor’ or ‘liberal’ to call their character and loyalty to america into question. such was the psychological impact of 9/11 on americans. and it still endures, sadly.
and that’s what you’re missing, humanist (oh, yes, and the fact that you’re here railing against those that basically agree with you — again i’ll repeat earlier requests of others that you air your complaints on a conservative blog like redstate or powerline, where they would be directed at those who need to hear it). there will be a critical mass for change. it is already being fought for by many americans. we won’t really know how far along we’ve come until november 2006, though.
so please save your harsh words — for this crowd, anyway — until after that time. but feel free to give it to the right-wing whackjobs with both barrels!
July 5th, 2006 at 2:57 amWhy do you people waste time addressing “humanist?”
Obviously, he knows all of you intimately, and what you’re made of.
He has superhuman powers, and can peer through your facade of being a “good progressive, with a good heart,” and see right into your cowardly, whiny, opportunistic little hearts.”
Someone with delusions of supreme righteousness amounts to a dust mite, as most of these comments do. This person goes out of their way to lambast you for…what precisely? I didn’t read all of his posts (although the “declaration of freedom from oppression from America” was an interesting, though quite self-important rip off of our oldest document), so I’m not quite sure I caught his recommendations? Only goading, insults, and chastizing.
What a ridiculous “point” the verbose blogger (hey, that’s an idea!) is trying to make; the failure to understand that posting on a blog is a way of communication, and understanding what impact we can make as a whole, IS part solution.
Communication is the first key to regaining control.
Blowing hot air from a personal pedestal is really, really accomplising very much indeed.
July 5th, 2006 at 7:45 amGreat quote!!!!
July 5th, 2006 at 8:32 amhumanist I think ia an American, that is why he won’t answer where he lives. The reason there is no mass uprising or nation wide protest is that there is no military draft today like in the 60’s. College kids today don’t face being drafted therefore no protests.
July 5th, 2006 at 9:22 amHere’s humanist’s unrelenting talking points: “blah, blah, I’m better than you, blah, blah, you’re stupid and cowardly, blah, blah, I’m all words and puffery, blah, blah, I haven’t DONE a d*mn thing to improve the situation, blah, blah, blah, blah, blah”
Am I missing anything?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:00 amDid anyone actually read the article… It was an opinion peace from a talking head… Not one bit of factual information listed or substantiated… Simply vomiting his opinion in the guise of journalism? I think I will stick with fair and balanced… If you want to make a case about lies, then come up with some evidence and stop throwing accusations and hoping something sticks…
July 5th, 2006 at 10:10 amSuckers.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:33 am.
You are all so angry and ready to point your fingers at “them,†you do not see that the snake is biting you! Show us evidence to these claims (paranoia’s) or stop pointing at the conservatives and screaming “evil, brainwashed, idiots; a la “clams got legs!” Listen to the trash on Air (against) America and the sound effects they have to use to fill space and turn life into a cartoon.
Which is viler? A broadcaster who speaks their mind and lets you know how they stand or one that lies to you with a strait face shaping your mind unconsciously until you are in lock step and touting the “party line.†I know what I am listening to when I tune into FOX. I have to pick out the lies on CNN and MSNBC. At least Fox uses debates with real liberals and do not just take out of context quotes to make points against the republicans.
I also listen to news from the BBC, on short wave, and downloaded from the internet from all sorts of sites who all have political views. Every one of them spins the news to fit their agenda. If you think that FOX invented it, you are the brain washed. They are just the first to say they have a point of view and you can like it or not. Not, “This is Ron Dather, and I am being totally honest with you…trust me.â€
Take out a note book and right down bullet comments on actual substantive items when listening to different news shows. When the day is done, who puts comments out there that are factually based? Who uses comments like “Stupid or Scary or Illegal (when it is unproven) to describe actions or attitudes of politicians. Ask yourself what news is supposed to be. Is it supposed to provide information or shape your understanding of it with underlying non-truths and innuendos?
War is inevitable, as long as leaders like Ill, Chavez and Ahmadinejad want more; more nuclear missiles, more ways to suppress and (really) brainwash their people, just more power. Either we unite and finish what it is we are doing, and do it right with out cutting and running, or we continue to deflate our worth in the world by in-fighting and back stabbing. We need to go back to the policy of politics stop at the border, and support this countries efforts NOW, or we shall lose face even when we win the war. We are helping establish a political system that is being chosen and developed by people who deserve it. I know, I have been there and will be back soon. We are not there to kill and occupy a country for oil, for more power. We do not need more power.
Humanist – go away. You, like what ever country you slithered from are irrelevant. We are Americans, we have never agreed on anything, but we have a great government that works better than anything SO FAR, and we will continue to be hated because of it. So, go make a poster and spit at the world for it has never cut you a break and given you something you have not earned.
The rest of you; think about why this site is dedicated to spewing hatred at something that expresses the inalienable right of freedom of speech instead of finding a way to improve the world. If you think it is brainwashing; then tell me one original thought you have developed on the topic of governance or political debate.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:05 pm#72-madashell,
I know that it is not fair to lump every American together. And I know that there are MANY very good people in America who are disgusted with the actions of their country. Quite frankly, that is what I see as your saving grace in this situation.
But, how does one separate the peas from the corn when the whole pot of soup itself is poisonous? The actions of the nation of the USA are what are inflicting the murder and mayhem. It is not the “republican†or “neo-con†army that is murdering and torturing Iraqis, it is the United States Army. These actions must stop. Innocent people are dying, DYING every day. Who then speaks for them? Do you think Iraqis should look at the “two†USAs and then forgive half or so of them because the bullets that kill and maim them, the bombs that blow them and their children to bits, come from only one of the USA’s factions? Besides being an unreasonable expectation, it is wholly wrong.
With that said, I truly wish I had a nice and clean package that I could provide as a solution to you. I am no more intelligent that anyone of you out there. I am no “better†than you. I am only speaking the uncomfortable truth. I am pulling the wool back and exposing the reality, and then being lambasted by some for having the audacity to do so. Challenge any ONE of the facts, assertions, or realities that I have put forth. I welcome the discussion.
Here is the dilemma though. People are dying violent and horrible deaths each and every day at the hands of your military. Women just like your wives, mothers, daughters, sisters, and friends are being murdered and subjected to other horrific atrocities. Men just like your husbands, fathers, sons, brothers, and friends are being murdered and tortured. Children just like your sons and daughters and nieces and nephews are being murdered, maimed, and scarred for life. This is all happening at this very moment, without cessation, and I’m expected to ignore all that because the POLITICAL debate needs to have its time to happen? After 3 years!?!
I’ll make a deal with you. Tell me what honorable justification there is for the murder that is about to occur to another innocent Iraqi in the next few minutes. Tell me what words, what explanation, I can give to the Iraqi parent who is holding the lifeless and mutilated body of their CHILD in their arms that will then justify that death to them. It must be one that passes the cosmic test for morality, and it must be one that you would be willing to offer to your most valued friend in the world, as they stand in front of you, with the bloodied remnants of what was the most important creation in the universe to them, their child.
If you can answer that, I will leave here and never post a word again.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:32 pm#74-Rex,
Perhaps my post above responding to madashell will address some of the questions and critiques that you offered up to me.
I appreciate the discourse and the civility with which you communicate your thoughts and opinions. You speak eloquently, and thoughtfully, and I wish I were as gifted a communicator as you as it would probably allow me to get my message across without seeming so abrasive or self-righteous.
I welcome your ideas and challenges and greatly appreciate your considerate diplomacy.
May peace be with all of us.
Humanist.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:41 pmProgressaurus Rex, America is not broke, you are correct we are in a flux because of all the information we are bombarded with now, but not because we are only listening to three TV channels. The information we have received for so long has proven to be trustless and malignant on all sides. We are now getting our eyes opened to the fact that those who have fed us for so long the “spoken truth†have lied and plied us into a frothing mass of hate. We started marching against the very things we stood for. Now, in this age of “Gotcha†journalism, we are constantly exposed to the fact that our leaders are fallible humans, and that hurts. We rail against every decision they make.
I am better connected than my father or his father. I live in a much greater community. I talk to people with similar and different views each day because of this “Box.†I am free now to look and find information which allows me to form my own opinion. Is this freedom in contrast to your ideals? Is that why you fled?
By polarizing our ideals to such neglectful ends, we only force the strong to take over. Your abandonment of our country shows your weakness to deal with this issue. Do not empress upon us your views unless you are ready to accept the consequences of your failure. I went the other direction. I serve my country.
Jim and Destardi, you are both on point.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:45 pm#82- Humanist.
Now that you have started an actual conversation instead of just blasting hatred; the answer to your request for an answer is “Ask an Iraqi.†Even though they do not wish us in their country, which we understand and wish to depart as soon as we can responsibly do, they do want the freedoms we are enabling them to achieve. Go there. Ask them if life is better and if we needed to come there.
Go there. Look for the “atrocities†you claim are occurring. It is not as common for anyone to die from an attack by our “Army,†as you say or have heard in the “credulous†media. Yes, there are bad people in war, on both sides. But, which is the greater good?: A government that denies liberty to seek: religious choice, speech, love, happiness; or one that at least grants your right to vote and find your freedom?
Underwear on one’s head is by far a small cost to endure in the psyche of a country, than to watch your family torn apart and tortured because of the religion you were born into. The very few cases of rape and needless killing, have been rapidly investigated and are being dealt with.
This country is attempting to fight the most moral and ethical battle of it’s entire life. We, as an armed force, are better prepared and educated to fight with out causing any unnecessary pain to innocent life. We have the most technologically advanced weapons to reduce mistakes and loss of life. We do not spend millions on our bombs so they can kill more, but too kill less! To only remove the one that is targeted; for they will continue to kill others until we do.
We did not create the underlying issue at hand. Ben Laden and the hatred of Muslims around the globe were created by the severe dissection of wealth and injustice created by their interpretation of a beautiful religion. If we only kill him, and do not establish a way to fix their situation, we will continue to have people hating us, because we are free and they are not. If we free the weak, the poor, the less fortunate, the haters have no pool of young, mad fighters to draw from and attack us.
God luck in all your endeavors.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:19 pm#85-John,
You are the most deluded individual I think that I have ever witnessed. I’m aghast at your talking points driven comment that has no basis in fact or reality.
You present the following:
- The Iraqis understand the USA’s grand vision for them and want for us to be there, kind of like “greeting us as liberatorsâ€
- There are not rampant atrocities going on in Iraq, only an acceptable number of such.
- Torturing someone is okay as long as you understand the “greater goodâ€
- We did not create the situation in Iraq, Ben (sic) Laden did.
- Killing Ben (sic) Laden will not solve the problem, but killing all of the bad muslims will.
Young man, you are certifiably insane. I do not throw that out as an insult, I am convinced of it by your own words. I cannot address your bullet points because they are each so extremely absurd that it is beyond belief. Every one of your assertions has already been rebuked by facts or by just plain common sense. That you would continue to have such incredibly moronic beliefs and then attempt to repackage them and sell them again displays an ignorance that is either diabolic, or caused by extreme mental illness.
Seek professional help, please. And I offer that up sincerely and with genuine concern.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:41 pmSir
You assume a number of things and in such you prove to everyone the points I make.
One- that I am young (most likely just wiser for trying to have a discussion with someone who is arrogant to a fault and only cares to draw others in to insult them).
Two- that I am a man.
Three- That I speak for the Iraqis (you are attempting to speak for them; not I. I only recited the opinions of those I spoke to there in Iraq.) How many have you talked to? And, if you live there, tell us the truth as you experience it, not as you assume it to be.
Four- there are rampant atrocities occurring… I never mentioned amounts, except to say they are far fewer than the news reports imply. I again have been there and know how the soldierly mind works in this affair. You assume that they will be as you and there by – commit atrocities. And that I except any form of atrocities, (I thought I had made it clear that this is the most moral and ethical army the world has ever seen, we do not allow our soldiers out of the wire unless supervised. That fact that one, so far, has been able to do this out of hundreds of thousands of soldiers, marines, sailors, airman, contractors is inexcusable, and sad, but I think the track record speaks for itself.)
Five – that I imply Iraqis except us (I stated they would love for us to be gone, which we will be soon)
Six – that I imply killing is the only answer (diplomacy failed, along with bribery on the part French, attempted assassination on the part of the Saudis, and stagnation on the part of the UN),
Seven – that Ben (fr) Laden is the cause of this entire problem (and not the stated abuse of the Koran his mentors have injected him and others like him, with.)
I assure you my faculties’ are crisp and clear. Thank you for your concern. Now, since you are so insulting, I shall move along back to the majority sites and stop listening to the hatred you have just spewed.
I hope everyone has a great Karmic day and builds barriers to these negativities, my apologies for having attempted to inject sense into his challenge.
Look deeply into your quest for the treasure you seek may not be the treasure you find. Homer
July 5th, 2006 at 2:46 pm#87-John,
I appreciate the opportunity to address your points specifically.
1. My assumption that you are young is based upon your amateurish use of grammar and writing style. But you are absolutely correct, I should not have made such an assumption and I apologize if that lapse offended you.
2. Again, another assumption based upon your moniker of “John Adamsâ€. However, I feel that it was reasonable to assume that you were a male but I will adjust any gender related references however you desire.
3. I did not “assume†that you spoke for Iraqis, you implied that you did with your statement:
Even though they do not wish us in their country, which we understand and wish to depart as soon as we can responsibly do, they do want the freedoms we are enabling them to achieve. Go there. Ask them if life is better and if we needed to come there.
4. How many “atrocities†are an acceptable amount in your eyes? And to imply that the reports of such are overblown and out of context is baseless. Please support that assertion with FACTS. Also, support with FACTS how the current US military is more “moral and ethical†than, say, our WWII veterans as this must be the case for you to say “I had made it clear that this is the most moral and ethical army the world has ever seenâ€. I know of numerous veterans that would like to discuss that opinion with you.
5. I absolutely love this quote because only in error do you speak the truth:
Five – that I imply Iraqis except us (I stated they would love for us to be gone, which we will be soon)
Yes, the Iraqis do take exception to us.
6. I made no such assertion that you implied that killing was the only answer, you have. However, since you claim that diplomacy failed, and then accuse the French and Saudi governments of international crimes, please provide factual evidence of these assertions. Especially the ones involving international crime since making knowingly false accusations of such is a crime in and of itself.
7. I made no such assumption. However, now that you have introduced new players into the mix, please specify the “mentors†that you now reference.
Now, since only cowards “cut-n-runâ€, I await your considered response. Tic…toc…tic…toc…
July 5th, 2006 at 3:38 pmi get the impression that “john adams” has fled, but a full reply will come shortly. my initial response is that you need to go back and reread what i wrote. you’ve misinterpreted me in some cases and gotten what i said completely wrong in others.
furthermore, i do hesitate to give any credence, however, to anyone that makes an oxymoronic statement like this:
“I hope everyone has a great Karmic day and builds barriers to these negativities, my apologies for having attempted to inject sense into his challenge”
July 5th, 2006 at 6:31 pmok, here’s my treatment, mr/ms john adams:
1) “America is not broke”
actually, america is broke. our national debt is nearing $8 trillion dollars, and is owned by the chinese, japanese, saudi arabians and british, primarily. nothing is currently being done to address this problem. in fact, those that claim to be the party of fiscal responsibility, the republicans, have now twice in my lifetime run up horrendous deficits and have pushed the debt to previously unheard of levels.
now, i know you actually meant to say “america is not broken.”
you have your opinion, i have mine. i might suggest that when a country is willing to spend over $500 billion dollars to “fix” another country by going to war with it, rather than using that money and those resources on its own problems — education, health care, poverty, energy independence, border security and proper labor enforcement, security for ports and national monuments, mine safety and regulations, fair and auditable elections — then that country just might be broken. america is not taking care of its own, plain and simple.
2) “you are correct we are in a flux because of all the information we are bombarded with now, but not because we are only listening to three TV channels”
i didn’t say we were only listening to 3 tv channels. i was specifically referring to the 60s with that comment — “there was no internet in the 60’s, there were only 3 channels on tv.” selective use of my words to misconstrue my meaning. skim and cherry pick debating.
3) “Now, in this age of “Gotcha†journalism, we are constantly exposed to the fact that our leaders are fallible humans, and that hurts. We rail against every decision they make.”
personally, it doesn’t hurt me one bit to know that our leaders are fallible — in fact i was never so gullible to think otherwise. it can only be a healthy thing for a populace to know its leaders are human like them. would you really prefer to believe your leaders are superhuman, infallible beings? maybe you should look up “cult of personality” sometime. furthermore, i really have no sympathy whatsoever for anyone that chooses to be a politician. they know what it is they’re getting into. we owe it to our country to question every decision they make. you seem to imply here that you’d prefer it if everyone were subservient and easily controlled. that’s a nice republican way of looking at things. 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, terrorists and flag burners and gays, oh my!
4) “I am better connected than my father or his father. I live in a much greater community. I talk to people with similar and different views each day because of this “Box.†I am free now to look and find information which allows me to form my own opinion. Is this freedom in contrast to your ideals? Is that why you fled?”
once again, you misinterpret what i wrote. there’s an old saying, “think globally, act locally”. my point is this: the internet tends to fool people into thinking that they can act globally, and it most certainly does cause people to be less involved in their own communities. moreover, i’m sorry that you were, according to what you say here, unable to form your own opinion before the “box” came along. personally, i had no problems in that regard. you seem to be trying to equate my words with some anti-progress stance that insinuates that the internet is bad. far from the truth, my friend. the internet allowed me to discover more about the country where i was born — australia — and made it much easier to plan my move. i’ve wanted to come to australia my entire life, and as i said before, my decision to finally do so was a direct result of the bush administration’s decision to invade iraq. the iraq war is what is in contrast to my ideals. it is disingenuous of you to insinuate otherwise.
5) “By polarizing our ideals to such neglectful ends, we only force the strong to take over.”
it’s known as divide and conquer, and the current balance of power in america illustrates exactly who has used it most effectively. it’s a shame that there’s been such an angry and vocal right-wing shoving this culture war down our throats. “liberals” are bad. there’s a “war on christianity”. gay marriage will destroy america…sorry to break it out once again, but, 9/11, 9/11, 9/11, terrorists and flag burners and gays, oh my! fear and subservience – republican values.
6) “Your abandonment of our country shows your weakness to deal with this issue.”
you seem to think you have the power to revoke my claim to america as my country. i was born in australia. i am a dual citizen. i have to renounce my american citizenship before anyone can say america is not my country anymore, and i can assure you that has not happened. i didn’t choose where i was born, nor what nationality my parents are (american). i was merely born into a situation and i chose to learn more about my birth country. america’s abandonment of reason and willful acceptance of a preemptive war on false pretenses and a flimsy rationale shows its weakness to deal with the responsibilities of democracy. quit making excuses for america.
7) “Do not empress upon us your views unless you are ready to accept the consequences of your failure. I went the other direction. I serve my country.”
it’s really sad, how many americans are now stooping to, “i’m a bigger patriot than you are.” is that the standard for being allowed to exercise my right of free speech in america now? what part of “i love america, and hate to see what’s happening to it, which is why i’m going back to fight for it” do you not understand? implying that you serve your country and i don’t is dishonest. you don’t know what i do, or have done, for america. are you trying to make yourself feel better by attempting to prove that you’re a better person than me? a better person wouldn’t engage in such ridiculous self-aggrandizing nonsense. by your logic here, i could just say ‘well i serve two countries, so i’m twice as good as you are.’
in a while i will address your other comments that were not made to me directly. though i must say that your enlightened comments on the veracity and forthrightness of fox news does explain a lot.
July 5th, 2006 at 9:14 pmHumanist comes here to post opinions because it is allowed to do so. Humanist once admitted that it’s opinions were unwelcome at the right-wing blogs, so it comes here, because it is not blocked from posting. So we are subjected to it’s preaching at us, simply because we are not anything like BushCo, and their supporters, even though Humanist cannot see that, or will not see that, and damns us all, collectively. Humanist does not deserve any response. It is just plain rude.
July 6th, 2006 at 1:43 amre #81, “john adams”:
1) “Listen to the trash on Air (against) America and the sound effects they have to use to fill space and turn life into a cartoon.”
you’re comparing apples and oranges. air america does not equate with fox news. perhaps the premiere radio network of rush limbaugh is a fairer comparison.
2) “Which is viler? A broadcaster who speaks their mind and lets you know how they stand or one that lies to you with a strait face shaping your mind unconsciously until you are in lock step and touting the ‘party line’.â€
a broadcaster speaking one’s mind does not equate to “fair and balanced” coverage of the news, as fox claims it does. a broadcaster letting you know “how they stand” is not journalism in any sense of the word. i’m glad you’ve taken the time to point that out. i have to say it is most vile to present opinion as journalism. and please, tell me, what’s the “party line” of msnbc? is it keith olbermann or joe scarborough? and cnn — is that jack cafferty or glenn beck?
3) “At least Fox uses debates with real liberals and do not just take out of context quotes to make points against the republicans.”
tell me, john, what exactly is a “real liberal” anyway? am i a “real liberal”? oh, i forgot, you leave it up to fox to decide that for you. at least you’re right about fox not using out-of-context quotes to make points against republicans! in fact, fox almost never makes points against republicans. that’s really ‘fair and balanced’ of them. btw john, i hear fox news are considering changing their slogan to “news for people who don’t have time to think”.
4) “Every one of them [news sources] spins the news to fit their agenda. If you think that FOX invented it, you are the brain washed. They are just the first to say they have a point of view and you can like it or not.”
how innovative of them. and ‘fair and balanced’ fits into that how, exactly?
5) “Ask yourself what news is supposed to be. Is it supposed to provide information or shape your understanding of it with underlying non-truths and innuendos?”
where were you during the ‘war on christmas’, john? man, was that news. that was the newsiest news i ever saw. if there was a dog that was trained to be able to sniff out news, the ‘war on christmas’ would’ve been like an olfactory overload. that news-sniffing dog would’ve literally overdosed on the journalistic value of the ‘war on christmas’. that was clearly the most important news story in the last decade or so. i can’t believe people could’ve accused john gibson of making it up to help sell his book.
6) “Either we unite and finish what it is we are doing, and do it right with out cutting and running, or we continue to deflate our worth in the world by in-fighting and back stabbing.”
what exactly is it that we are doing in iraq, again? are we looking for wmds? no, we’ve already established that they don’t exist. we now know that was an over-hyped fantasy of the administration. are we freeing iraq from the oppression of saddam? well, maybe, but only to see it replaced by horrific sectarian violence and an influx of terrorist groups that previously did not exist there. oh, and nice use of ‘cutting and running’, except that phrase is sooo last month. you say we need to “do it right” but there was really only one opportunity for that — back in 2003 when this whole mess began. but then that chance went down in flames, thanks to the monumental incompetence of rumsfeld’s war planning and bush’s complicity.
7) “We need to go back to the policy of politics stop at the border, and support this countries efforts NOW, or we shall lose face even when we win the war.
sorry to inform you of this, but i live in another country, i have visited several others — we have already lost face. and just who controls policy in america at current time? ahh yes, the republicans. i’ve got an idea — why don’t you tell them to quit politicizing (WAVE THE WHITE FLAG OF SURRENDER) this war (CUT & RUN) so we can (IRAQ WAS INVOLVED IN 9/11) put this mess behind us, ok?
8) “We are helping establish a political system that is being chosen and developed by people who deserve it. I know, I have been there and will be back soon. We are not there to kill and occupy a country for oil, for more power. We do not need more power.”
are we establishing a vibrant democracy that will be the envy of the middle east? no. iraq’s current constitution borrows significant elements of islamic law, restricts the rights of women, and opens the way for production sharing agreements involving iraq’s (previously state-owned) oil resources. in realistic terms, these psa’s will cost the iraqi people between $74 billion and $194 billion in lost revenue over the next 30 years. who gets the revenue? oil companies. and try telling those that deal in power that they don’t need more power. remember to not get your feelings hurt when they laugh in your face.
9) “think about why this site is dedicated to spewing hatred at something that expresses the inalienable right of freedom of speech”
oxymoron, much?
July 6th, 2006 at 2:27 amunfortunately, cyra, humanist’s view is one that i encounter fairly often as an american living in another country. it’s a reflection of the resounding failure that is the bush administration foreign policy.
america has lost an inestimable amount of prestige over the iraq war, and ironically many complainers of american hegemony i meet are from the uk. it really sucks to have to remind them that the british have been enablers of american foreign policy for the last 60 years. i usually say to them ‘you get rid of blair, and i’ll get rid of bush. deal?’
i was hoping humanist would actually divulge what country it was they live in. it would clarify things a bit. though i, like others here, suspect humanist is an american that just wants to vent. how else could one explain the statement, “I know of numerous veterans that would like to discuss that opinion with you.”
personally, i don’t know any foreigners with connections in the u.s. military or veterans groups. and i know a lot of foreigners.
July 6th, 2006 at 2:45 am