BREAKING: Former Enron CEO Ken Lay is dead.
By on Jul 5th, 2006 at 10:06 am
BREAKING: Former Enron CEO Ken Lay is dead.
CNN reports, “Enron founder Ken Lay has died in Aspen, Colorado, a spokesman for Lay’s family said today. Lay was awaiting sentencing after being found guilty of conspiracy and fraud.”
UPDATE: KPRC in Houston reports Lay “died of a massive heart attack.”
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Wow thats stunning…..karma is a bitch!!!!
July 5th, 2006 at 10:09 amThis is unfortunate. I was hoping that Kenny Boy would rot in prison for a few years. Be the proctology lab experiment for his cell block. Instead, Dubby Boy will now give Kenny Boy the Medal of Freedom. At least now Kenny Boy cant give any more campaign contributions to Repugnicans running for office. There was a silver lining afterall.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:11 amI noticed there is no cause of death listed. I wonder if it was suicide and the family is trying to get the corenor to list it as something else.
Otherwise I am sorry he didnt serve any time in prison.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:12 amSomebody must have told him he wasn’t getting his retirement package.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:12 amI’ll believe it when I see the body.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:15 amumm, too bad?
I’m trying to care, I really am.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:15 amGood riddance.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:16 amThere goes Bushie’s first pardon candidate.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:18 amYou should all consider showing a little more respect. He made mistakes just like you and me, keep in mind he has a family in mourning.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:21 amJust a suggestion.
Why does the URL say “former exxon ceo”? Didn’t TP make this mistake before, too?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:22 amfake death to avoid prison and hide?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:23 amAndrew, this guy is little more than a mass murderer–knowingly and callously detsroyed the lives of thousands of his employees. Maybe he could have tried to show them some respect.
And “massive heart attack”–if I’m not wrong there are many toxins that can induce “massive heart attacks.”
July 5th, 2006 at 10:23 amAre you looking into the way the enron sentence is related to the death, was stress the cause. When looking at the way you seem to relate your life to the way you want to find your self, can you compair.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:24 amHe fell down an elevator shaft…onsto some bullets.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:24 amthat’s is terrible.
Will Bush go to the funeral?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:25 amI’ll believe it when I see the body.
Comment by Larry from C
Ditto.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:25 amI am trying to feel sympathy. A death is always a sad event, but when I think of the lives he ruined, my sadness dissipates. Bushie’s response will be interesting. Will he attend the funeral of Kenny boy?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:25 amMy first thought was suicide, but they are saying massive coronary.
And Cheney’s black heart keeps pumping.
Ken Lay had a heart!?!?!? I’m shocked, I tells ya!
July 5th, 2006 at 10:26 amAndrew,
July 5th, 2006 at 10:27 amI think people here are just trying to hide their pain and sorrow behind humor.
His sentencing was 2 months away. Sept. 11, 2006 to be exact.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:27 amJust as I felt reasonable suspicions arise during his sentencing, I can’t help but feel suspicious of this supposed death, be it real, fake, natural, self induced, or by somebody else, I don’t buy the official story being thrown into our faces right now.
People should feel the same way about the North Korea missle testing scenario.
We are swimming a big pool of thick shitty propaganda right now.
Being just a mite cynical . . . does this mean that he or his family will not have to pay any fines in the judgement?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:28 amHuzzah! Rot in hell kenny boy.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:28 amHis heart failed, massively, when he betrayed his employees.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:29 amPut his dead azz in jail anyway!
July 5th, 2006 at 10:29 amShow more respect for a convicted criminal, because he had family?
You’re being facetious, aren’t you?
Me and grandma millie are getting a huge chuckle out of this.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:29 amThere’s one responsibility no one can buy their way out of…
——
July 5th, 2006 at 10:30 amhttp://griperblade.blogspot.com – grumblings from the heartland
He made mistakes just like you and me
Comment by Andrew — July 5, 2006 @ 10:21 am
um, NO… well, i don’t know about YOU…
July 5th, 2006 at 10:31 am[...] Ken lay has apparently died, although there are few details. In the wake of this news, I took a look at Think Progress to see what the comments were. As I read them, I thought back to when news of Zar. Here’s what I found. [...]
July 5th, 2006 at 10:32 amI wonder how many people had a heart attack when they saw their retirement funds decimated?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:32 amCome on people, the guy is dead. If you believe in that sort of thing he is getting a rather warm reception in the afterlife, if you don’t he just isn’t there anymore. Lets not all start Tangoing on his grave okay?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:33 amConsider the possibility that your Schadenfreude comes not from sympathy for his former employees but from jealousy when you realize that you will spend the rest of your life in middle management.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:34 amPeace ~
#15
that’s is terrible.
Will Bush go to the funeral?
Comment by Geoff Miller — July 5, 2006 @ 10:25 am
No, but I think the Democrats plan to go—funerals are a great opportunity to launch into an anti-Bush rant. Apparently you think so too.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:35 amCan someone please post where his grave is going to be… I want to dance & piss on it.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:35 am#28 – Whiny Assed Titty Baby Storms is doing his “Holier Than Thou” act again…
July 5th, 2006 at 10:36 am[...] CNN reports, “Enron founder Ken Lay has died in Aspen, Colorado, a spokesman for Lay’s family said today. Lay was awaiting sentencing after being found guilty of conspiracy and fraud.†[...]
July 5th, 2006 at 10:36 amI hope there is a God after all.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:37 amIt gets funnier by the second, now we have a Coulterite feigning outrage at outrageous comments.
What a great day to be an American – and comparing Lay to Zarqawi.
I’d post a LOL, but that’s kind of cheesy for a comment section.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:37 amBREAKING NEWS: Ken Lay had a heart!
July 5th, 2006 at 10:37 amHe didn’t “make mistakes.” A man who has a mid-life fling might “make a mistake.”
He “committed huge crimes” and “robbed thousands of their pensions” in order that he and his ridiculous wife could live like pashas.
Please. A little respect for the living.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:37 amAndrew,
Consider the possibility that Bush’s Schadenfreude comes not from sympathy for the toppling of Sadam but from jealousy when he realized that he himself will not be able to become a dictator.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:39 amPeace ~
Now I Lay me Down to Sleep!
July 5th, 2006 at 10:39 amExtremely rich, and extremely devious individual. Anybody else want to see dental and DNA confirmation?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:40 ammakes no sense dlet
July 5th, 2006 at 10:40 amit is my hope that it was a slow painful affair with many moments of pauses and surges of pain
July 5th, 2006 at 10:41 amStill well off enough to kick the bucket in Aspen.
I thought he had most of his assets stripped/sold off?
Why do white collar criminals never truly pay?
I’m sad he didn’t spend any time in jail.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:41 am#25
Show more respect for a convicted criminal, because he had family?
You’re being facetious, aren’t you?
Me and grandma millie are getting a huge chuckle out of this.
Comment by AnAmerican — July 5, 2006 @ 10:29 am
How do you explain the outpouring of support shown to convicted murderer Tookie Williams?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:42 amWell look at the material I started with.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:42 am#5, #11, #20… I agree with all of you. I do NOT believe the current story right now. I hardly believe he is actually dead. He was a big man, he had connections, there has to be a way he could have faked his death. There have been so many shocking revelations and lies in this government and with big corporations… and the timing of all this… I just go not beleive he got off as easy as death without suffering in prison first. Even a ‘photo’ of the body wont convince me – since the faked videos of bin Laden and possible fake video of Nick Berg. Ever heard of Photoshop? A picture proves nothing. Shake, Combustion, and After Effects makes video prove nothing either.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:43 amI’ll believe it when I see the body.
Comment by Larry from C
July 5th, 2006 at 10:44 amI am with you on that.
How terribly sad. And how mean spirited of all your comentaries. They all forget what a magnificent enterprise he established, how they all profited by its profits and how they would not have even had the money they “lost” without his leadership and enterprise; and how now it will be hard to clear his name.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:44 amTookie Williams? I’d have to explain it by the anti-death penalty crowd and his prison conversion to a non-violence stance.
what the hell that has to do with Ken lay must be well-beyond my grasp.
Maybe you can explain it.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:45 amYou’re right, I’m sure he was whisked away to Switzerland on a private jet charged on the White House’s mastercard. You should all march on Washington demanding to see Ken Lay’s dental records. Great Idea.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:46 am#9. He “made mistakes like you and me”?? Let’s see… I’ve never defrauded thousands of employees and investors out of millions of dollars all while lining my own pockets. Go screw yourself if you want to accuse the rest of us of such behavior. Maybe you are guilty of similar aggregious moral harms against your fellow man, but the vast majority of people have a stronger moral fiber than this slime ball. My only regret is that he didn’t see the inside of a prison cell for his crimes.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:47 amPayback’s a bitch, eh? I hope he went slowly and painfully.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:49 amJesus, look at what our trolls have stooped to. Guys, can you please go out and get a life somewhere? I mean, you’re defending Ken Lay, you’re critisizing those of us who feel he should have been locked up in a Federal pen along long time ago.
My guess, none of these morons paid for Ken Lay’s outrageously inflated energy prices like us here in CA, nor did any of you or your family lose all their money in his now worthless stock & outright fraud. Why am I not surprised?
July 5th, 2006 at 10:49 amHeart Attack huh? Probably was about to roll over on BushCo. and was “taken care of”.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:50 amDuring the trail, prosecutors painted Skilling as a participant in Enron’s duplicity and Lay as someone willing to both conceal and profit from the company’s illegal tactics.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:51 am“In late 2001, Ken Lay had a chance to prevent the outcome that happened,” said John Hueston, a member of the Enron task force, following the verdict. “He had a golden opportunity to save Enron. But he made a fateful choice to place himself in front of the investors. He did that by choosing not to tell the unvarnished truth, and by not asking the hard questions.”
Being just a mite cynical . . . does this mean that he or his family will not have to pay any fines in the judgement?
Comment by John B — July 5, 2006 @ 10:28 am
The judgements do not disappear. They will not “belong” to his estate. But do not count on anyone receiving a dime. I am sure whatever he has left is well hidden.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:55 am#51
They wanted to give a convicted murder the Nobel Peace Prize, and you can’t find enough decency in yourself to keep from celebrating Ken Lay’s death. You probably weren’t even affected by his crime.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:55 amThey should put his bloated corpse on the front page of every newspaper as if it was a trophy. Just so we know he’s really dead. Same thing they did to al Zaqari.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:56 am#51
They wanted to give a convicted murder the Nobel Peace Prize, and you can’t find enough decency in yourself to keep from celebrating Ken Lay’s death. You probably weren’t even affected by his crime.
Comment by Antagonist — July 5, 2006 @ 10:55 am
I’m assuming you are still talking about Tookie Williams, I don’t know who “they” is that you are referring to, but if you were a reader, you would know being nominated isn’t a big deal and can be done by people with vague credentials at best. This isn’t representative of any kind of international opinion.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:58 amI heard Ken Lay and Zarqawi were the same person! This explains why their crimes are so similar! Now I finally understand all of you liberals, I was so misguided.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:59 amI suppose all that money he swallowed is hard on his vains ;)
July 5th, 2006 at 10:59 amYou’re starting to amuse me Antagonist.
Where you affected by Tookies crime?
everyone who owned Enron stock, mutual funds containing that stock and who used energy was affected by Lay’s crime.
Which is quite a few more people then were affected by Tookies crime.
If you’re gonna troll, at least make some sense.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:00 am#55
Jesus, look at what our trolls have stooped to. Guys, can you please go out and get a life somewhere? I mean, you’re defending Ken Lay, you’re critisizing those of us who feel he should have been locked up in a Federal pen along long time ago.
Comment by kindness
Anything but kindness,
Perhaps you should take a look at what you have stooped to–viciously attaking a dead man.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:00 amIn all fairness, I don’t discriminate against the dead….I say attack him as if he were standing right next to you.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:04 amAntagonist – you need to look in the mirror, you are defending someone who ruined the lives of thousands of people out of greed. Sorry but I don’t have sympathy for him or his family, they are set for life, to live off of the hard work of thousands of Enron employees, assets which should have been seized. They won’t have to work and their grandchildren won’t either. Sorry, but my cold, hard lefty heart just doesn’t have any sympathy for them.
Do you spend time thinking about Iraqi children who have died because of our policy in Iraq that you undoubtedly support? Didn’t think so. You want someone to feel sorry for, feel sorry for them.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:05 am#64
You’re pretty thick aren’t you.
I know it’s too much to expect people like you to recognize a double standard, but I thought I’d try anyway.
Tookie’s life was “valued” by every bleeding heart liberal that sought to spare him from the death penalty.
Now, look how many here are actually taking pleasure in Ken Lays’ death.
Seems pretty inconsistant and hypocritical to me…
July 5th, 2006 at 11:06 amI was speaking dirctly to the likes of you antagonist. You and all the other lost and dolt trolls.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:06 amHe got what he deserved. Had he lived a “crime-free” life, he wouldn’t have been on trial and convicted. The resulting stress from his own actions killed him.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:07 amYou reap what you sow.
Look for puncuture marks and poison, he may have been ready to roll over, tell all, on president Pinocchio.
It would have been more appropriate to serve his jail sentence and then suffer the heart attack the day after his release.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:08 amLet’s all feign remorse much like Lay did during his trial. Oh wait…he couldn’t even muster that.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:08 amI want to see pictures of his dead body. I don’t believe he is dead, at all. It’d be easy to stage your own death with the kind of money he stole.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:09 am“He had posted a $5m bond to avoid custody until September when he would have been sentenced – to up to 45 years behind bars.â€
How on earth did he have 5 million lying around? How come he was allowed to keep assets?
Antagonist: You spew out “Perhaps you should take a look at what you have stooped to–viciously attaking a dead man.” As if there’s some honour code that is begin broken by condemning a convicted jackass who destroyed thousands of lives. He doesn’t deserve any respect whatsoever. He deserves decades of posthumous ridicule. And he’s going to get it.
and
Andrew: to make discussion of Lay’s enormously destructive crimes a liberal/conservative thing is really, really ignorant.
Are there actually people out there who defend Lay’s actions? That think of him as some misunderstood guy? That he’s somehow a victim? Are these people on glue?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:09 amKen Lay and his company Enron did our country at least one service – he demonstrated that Grey Davis was an inept governor of California in a crisis. Imagine if there had been a serious problem that Gov. Davis had to face, and not an energy crisis? To extrapolate from his “rolling brown-outs or black-outs”, he would have rationed gasoline, bread, housing and turned California into a true communist state – his real goal. California voters recognized this from a simple electricity shortage, and signed petitions to throw him out.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:10 amAntagonist- Just like you say that Tookie got what he deserved, we, the true patriots, say that Kenneth Lay got what he deserved all because he destroyed the lives, pensions, and careers of thousands who worked under him. He also put states like California in danger with it’s energy crisis thus resulting in the ouster of Gray Davis and what did they get? AHHNALD!
Every former Enron employee will be dancing for joy. I think I’ll rent that Enron-The Smartest Guys In The Room DVD today to celebrate. :)
July 5th, 2006 at 11:14 amSeppuku?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:14 amAntagonist,
If you want Lay as your hero, feel free. If you wanna babble about Tookie, feel free.
But if you think you have the power to make me feel bad for Lay’s heart exploding, dream on.
His heart exploding brought more justice to his victims then the US justice system could have ever hoped for.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:16 amquote “Died.” unquote
/sarc
July 5th, 2006 at 11:17 amif for no other reason than tookie turned his life around to try to help others… lay denied any guilt and even played the “religion” card after his verdict was announced…
July 5th, 2006 at 11:17 amThis is funny. Not that Lay is dead, no. But the hypocrisy. Zarqawi died and conservatives openly rejoiced. (He had a family too.) It was the liberals who called for a more reserved response at that time. But this isn’t as funny as Carrottop. I mean, what is?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:18 am#76
I guess I just can’t relate to those who are so hate-filled, that upon hearing the news of death, launch into immediate celebration.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:19 am“I guess I just can’t relate to those who are so hate-filled, that upon hearing the news of death, launch into immediate celebration. ”
yeah, I believe you.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:21 amKenny melted, leaving only his ruby red shoes behind.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:21 amYou have to wonder if K. Lay would have lived to be 95 had he been found innocent.
Guilt is a bitch, looks like it finally got to him.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:22 amI guess I just can’t relate to those who are so hate-filled, that upon hearing the news of death, launch into immediate celebration.
We’re not celebrating his death…we’re celebrating the end of his life.
Wait, wait.
We’re not celebrating his death, we’re merely rejoicing in the money we’re going to save by not putting him into the federal pen.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:23 amFirst Milosovic and now Ken Lay die of “heart attacks.”
Is it foil hat time?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:23 amwho really cares?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:24 amTo extrapolate from his “rolling brown-outs or black-outsâ€, he would have rationed gasoline…
ex·trap·o·late
1. To infer or estimate by extending or projecting known information.
2. Mathematics. To estimate (a value of a variable outside a known range) from values within a known range by assuming that the estimated value follows logically from the known values.
i bet you meant to say EXTRICATE… huh?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:24 amThis kind of rejoicing is a little shocking and, frankly, a lot ugly.
It’s funny how this crowd is much more likely to defend the likes of Tookie Williams and bemoan his death.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:26 amI don’t believe it.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:26 amThis is a hoax.
No doubt about it.
e.g. stop butchering my language, douchebags!
July 5th, 2006 at 11:28 amFrankly I am just surprised he even had a heart. Who would have thought that a person who destroyed so many lives would have one?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:28 amThis kind of rejoicing is a little shocking and, frankly, a lot ugly.
It’s funny how this crowd is much more likely to defend the likes of Tookie Williams and bemoan his death.
Yeah…I know.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:29 amI take no pleasure in Tookie’s death, or Lays death, or Zarqawi’s death. the news of death is a reminder of our own mortality. There should be a period of time to reflect on that, and to empathize with those who loved that person. Any following comments should be measured with some degree of respect—if not for the deceased, at least for the survivors. I doubt any of these things being said here, would be said to the faces of Ken Lays family.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:29 am#87
First Milosovic and now Ken Lay die of “heart attacks.â€
Is it foil hat time?
Comment by Jeffrey Stewart
Maybe all of these sinful people are being spirited away to some underground location where Cheney feeds off of their evil in order to allow him to walk this earth.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:33 amBut will Bush eulogize and acknowledge his friendship with Ken Lay?
Past history suggests not. During the height of the Enron meltdown in January 2002, Bush denied his well-documented relationship with Lay:
“I got to know Ken Lay when he was the head of the-what they call the Governor’s Business Council in Texas. He was a supporter of Ann Richards in my run in 1994. And she had named him the head of the Governor’s Business Council. And I decided to leave him in place, just for the sake of continuity. And that’s when I first got to know Ken.”
For the history, see:
July 5th, 2006 at 11:33 am“Bush Lies About Ken Lay.”
Out of respect…
Raise your hand if you are a member of Kenneth Lay’s family
Nobody?
OK, proceed.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:34 amThe real Telltale Heart, I think…
July 5th, 2006 at 11:36 amStop with the Tookie references, the views of minority far left people don’t represent the views of liberals as a whole, just as that ultra right wing church that protests soldiers funerals saying God created IED’s because the USA harbors fags doesn’t represent conservatives as a whole.
So get off your high horse already, we know that conservatives only value life when it suits their political purpose. Your sympathy charade is so transparent it’s shameful.
If I see Ken Lay’s dead, bloated face blown up and mounted in a golden frame on display at a press conference by Howard Dean, that’s another story.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:37 am#98 – Talk about taking the moral high road…
July 5th, 2006 at 11:37 amFunny how the Republicans in here were just dancing in the streets not so long ago over the death of Zarqawi… And now they mourn Kenneth Lay? Please.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:39 amIf I see Ken Lay’s dead, bloated face blown up and mounted in a golden frame on display at a press conference by Howard Dean, that’s another story.
Who would do such a thing just to stir up feelings…I mean seriously? That sounds horrible and would never happen.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:40 am[...] Ken Lay is dead. (hat-tip ThinkProgress) Former Enron Corp. chairman and founder Ken Lay died of a massive heart attack early Wednesday, KPRC Local 2 reported. [...]
July 5th, 2006 at 11:40 amIn a nutshell- Ken Lay lied, cheated his employees out of pensions, jobs and other forms of benefits, he destroyed the hopes and dreams of many people who worked for him. He put one state through a energy crisis. He got convicted, claimed he was a man of faith (which is what many people can actually say when they get caught with their hand in somebody else’s cookie jar and are busted) and lied about being broke.
The bastard got what was coming to him. Any troll who disagrees with that better try and tell any former Enron employee and his/her family otherwise.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:41 amWell… I tried to put a little air freshener on this manure pile, but it still stinketh.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:41 am#102 – Do you deny there is a difference between al-Zarqawi and Lay? Lay and Williams? At the very least, Lay didn’t put the barrel of a gun to peoples heads and pull the trigger. Not saying he wasn’t a criminal – just saying he hadn’t committed multiple capital offenses.
#101 – If you wanna create this knife, I think it’s fair to say it cuts both ways.
I would rather see people a little more subdued.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:44 amIt’s been my experience, stuff like this happens in threes. One can only hope.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:45 amUnbelievable, I remember plenty of people on this site stating it was wrong to celebrate a person’s death, when Zarqawi died. The hypocrisy is running both ways today.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:45 am#105 – This troll is from an ex-Enron family (my pops).
July 5th, 2006 at 11:46 am102- It’s the hypocricy of the republiKKKans that they love to think of Ken Lay as a hero. I saw MSNBC’s coverage in which Melissa Stark talked to a WSJ.com reporter who believed Lay was innocent. I hope the coverage continues and thay they actually talk to a former Enron employee and his/her family who got financially and morally ruined by that fat cat.
Now, the former ExxonMobile guy who got that $400 million payout, shouldn’t he had been next? He had to be three times the size of Lay not to mention the three chins he wears now.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:46 amBad News: He wont get to rot in prison for what he did to those people.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:46 amGood News: No tax money will be spent on keeping him in prison.
How the HELL did Tookie Williams get into this thread? WTF is that?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:46 amWell… I tried to put a little air freshener on this manure pile, but it still stinketh.
Comment by Antagonist — July 5, 2006 @ 11:41 am
If his family was any reflection of how he was as a man, they are probably fighting over what assets are left as we speak.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:47 amWell… I tried to put a little air freshener on this manure pile, but it still stinketh.
Comment by Antagonist — July 5, 2006 @ 11:41 am
That’s your own breath you smell… From all those vile things you usually spew.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:48 amchase- Did your father retire in time before 2001 or was he there at the time of the downfall? If it’s the latter, why defend a guy who put your father out of work. It it’s the former, then what do you know about what those who got screwed in 2001-2002 went through?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:49 am#89, Katy,
No, definitions 1 & 2 fit my meaning.
Gray Davis’s response to an energy commodity shortage was to try to ween Californians from their “unhealthy addiction to electricity, which is bad for the environment”.
Extricate is what Californians did to Gray Davis, so as to improve the governance of California.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:50 amYou’re breaking my heart Antagonist.
It’s a shame you’ve painted yourself into this corner, because if, God Forbids, a high profile liberal icon ever dies, you’ll have to sit there and be quiet.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:50 amI wonder how many ex-enron employees there will be at his funeral.
You would think that a scumbag like K.Lay would be held in high regard by Republicans..you know right up there with Reagan and Nixon.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:51 amFunny how the Republicans in here were just dancing in the streets not so long ago over the death of Zarqawi… And now they mourn Kenneth Lay? Please.
Comment by unbelievable — July 5, 2006 @ 11:39 am
Once again, you’ve managed to distort the facts and create your own reality.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:51 amImportant distinction
Zarqawi – KILLED
Lay – died
I’m sorry, but I feel no remorse for somebody who died from eating too many big fat juicy steaks bought from the blood and tears of those he robbed.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:51 am#109 You’re right, it is wrong to celebrate a person’s death, especially in this case when he died in Aspen, instead of prison where he belongs. Another Enron executive uses death to escape justice.
It is however, perfectly appropriate to celebrate his conviction which would have gotten him 20 years or more. Also appropriate to celebrate the fact that Enron won’t be hurting anyone anymore.
Imagine, if Bush was worth a damn at running business, he would be in the same boat right now.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:53 am116 – He retired prior to the 2001 collapse. But..
he lost his entire pension and stock holdings (he wasn’t the most sophisticed investor and didn’t grasp the importance of “diversification”). So he was “screwed” even more than younger employees that lost a job as he was largely financially dependant on the pension.
And I’m not necessarily defending him – I was just as happy as anyone to see him found guilty. I refuse, however, to rejoice in his death, to make jokes at his expense, etc.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:55 amThat’s your own breath you smell… From all those vile things you usually spew.
Comment by unbelievable — July 5, 2006 @ 11:48 am
Calling for decency is vile? You sure a twisted little bitch aren’t you.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:56 am#118 Worse yet, they’ll have to pay tribute and speak good things at his funeral, just like at Reagan’s. And imagine the outcry from conservatives that would ensue if someone criticizes Kenny Boy’s enemies at his funeral, ala Coretta Scott King.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:56 amWhy is it that when something happens to bad people(Repuppetcan’s) we all of the sudden have to “have a heart”, or “show some respect”. This coming from a crowd who stills cheers the deaths of JFK, RFK, and MLK, a crowd whose whole existence is based on killing, and death.
A crowd who cheered the deaths of Emmett Till, the civil rights workers in Mississippi. A crowd who cheered the disenfranchisement of millions. And now we must show respect for a man who caused millions to lose their LIFE savings, while he enjoyed fabulous wealth, kicked it with Mr. Bush in the White House, helped create this failed energy policy.
No
If you have a belief in anything higher than yourself, you would and should have seen this coming. The fact that he was taken before he could take is life proves that we all will answer for our trangressions against other’s.
All of you who are followers of the Bush Ministry will find out sooner or later (hopefully sooner) that Mr. Bush and his elk are the “darkness reaching for the darkness” (got that from the movie NIXON), Mr. Lay just happen to find the light switch instead.
The Vice President is next.
RIP
SGT Stephen R. Sherman
C CO 1-5 Inf
KIA 03 Feb 05
Mosul, Iraq
Or as Tony Snow and the Repuppetcan’s would say
July 5th, 2006 at 11:56 am#1462
120- Oh they’ll be there- to spit in his casket, just to make sure he’s dead. Then again, this time as a small payback. Yes, they should go after his wife, legally, because she too lied about being broke.
Next thing you’ll know she’ll be on Today crying her croc tears to Matt (bleeding heart) Lauer and she will say that he husband was the real victim. ICK!
Personally, I hope the Chimperor Boy King comes to the funeral. No better way to get you approval numbers lower than 30% that that.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:56 am120- Oh they’ll be there- to spit in his casket, just to make sure he’s dead. Then again, this time as a small payback. Yes, they should go after his wife, legally, because she too lied about being broke.
Next thing you’ll know she’ll be on Today crying her croc tears to Matt (bleeding heart) Lauer and she will say that he husband was the real victim. ICK!
Personally, I hope the Chimperor Boy King comes to the funeral. No better way to get his approval numbers lower than 30% than that.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:57 amThere is no joy or satisfaction in this. Anyone who celebrates death does not deserve the badge of honor we call liberalism.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:57 amI don’t think anyone here is asking for remorse, for you to be sad Lay is dead. (Except, I’m sad he’s dead because justice will not be served now.) It’s a belief that death shouldn’t be celebrated like this, no matter who the deceased may be. You know the cliche, “never speak ill of the dead.” It’s something I wouldn’t want for me or mine, so I can’t want it for anyone else.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:57 amI dont understand this conservative obsession with Tookie Williams. 99% of those who didn’t want him executed do not want ANYBODY executed by the state because they feel capital punishment is just wrong in principal. Who here has called for the death setence of Lay? Nobody! At worst you have people saying “he got what he deserved.” Big whoop.
I was against Tookie’s execution as I am against any execution (that’s my personal opinion, but unlike lock-step repubs, we libs tend to differ on things from time to time so you will see varying opinions on this subject — shocking for you guys, I know). I, and many others, were not against Tookie’s execution just because he had some sort of moral conversion. Yes, it was good that he was doing what he could to battle back against the gang system he started and was involved in, but I never would have agreed with pardoning him, giving him a nobel prize, or what ever other ridiculous trolling garbage you righties have come up with here.
I would be JUST as against execution if Lay had committed a capital crime and was sentenced to death. However, I am NOT sad to see him pass. There are plenty of good people on this planet that die unexpectedly and for no reason EVERY DAY and nobody sheds a tear. Let’s cry for them, not for greedy criminals.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:57 am#128 Didn’t you hear? Bush doesn’t recall ever meeting him! Maybe there was a photo taken somewhere, he doesn’t recall.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:58 amCan’t we just lock up K. Lay’s dead body in a cell for the next 30 years, and then bury what’s left of his carcus on the federal penitentiary grounds forever?
July 5th, 2006 at 11:59 amChase- Everyone, young and old got screwed. I’m glad that you felt that Lay deserved to be convicted, but the fact that he destroyed thousands of lives gave him something that was partly justified. Many people would have liked to see him rot, then die in prison.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:03 pm124- You’ve lost the argument, go back to the little trollcave where you came from.
Unbelievable and the rest of us kicked your ass and won.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
July 5th, 2006 at 12:06 pmLay didn’t put the barrel of a gun to peoples heads and pull the trigger. Not saying he wasn’t a criminal – just saying he hadn’t committed multiple capital offenses.
Comment by Chase — July
No, he was part of a plan to cause rolling blackouts in California, during the summer. Elderly poor folk died from the heat during these blackouts.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:06 pm#134 – Well, he got what he deserved as far as being found guilty. He would have been sentenced to enough of a term to die in prison anyway.
I don’t think a heart attack is every a “form of justice”. That’s kinda silly.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:07 pm“I did not attend his funeral; but I wrote a nice letter saying I approved of it.”
July 5th, 2006 at 12:08 pm- Mark Twain
Once again, you’ve managed to distort the facts and create your own reality.
Comment by Antagonist — July 5, 2006 @ 11:51 am
Not even remotely. There were several of you conservatives in here when Zarqawi was killed verbally dancing and celebrating. Go to the thread to read them, so you’ll finally get a dose of reality – first hand. I think Exley was the most exuberant that day. But, go see for yourself. I don’t have to make this crap up – you guys show your hypocrisy all on your won accord.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:09 pmI was going to wait to comment on this but I can see the thread is rocketing past 100 comments in just a few minutes, so by the time I’ve written this, we’ll probably be batting .333.
Read these books and they will help you connect the Enron/Bush Administration dots: “Conspiracy of Fools” by Kurt Eichenwald, “American Dynasty” by Kevin Phlips, “The Price of Loyalty” by Ron Suskind, and Kitty Kelley’s FANTASTIC book on the Bush family, “The Family.”
And knowing how tight Kenny Boy was with George Herbert Walker Bush, it’s hard to imagine that the Bush family was NOT involved in the Enron scandal vis a vis Ken Lay. And knowing that, perhaps its best to be a little skeptical of the news today regarding Ken Lay’s “death” because he was a liability. If Kenny Boy decided to turn into a witness of any sort against the Bush Administration (criminal syndicate?) in favor of a reduced sentence, it’s not hard to imagine the possibilities.
More importantly, homever, is Enron. Skilling, Fastow, Lay…they all knew exactly what they were doing. Their’s was an organized crime, perpetuated by their enablers in the lower rank & file that did their bidding. As such they were a criminal syndicate. Imagine that kind of evil and then try to have an ounce of sympathy for this man’s death today as he & his cohorts wrought real misery on millions of people in California with no power, some say accelerating the dot-com bust (chew on THAT), the vanishing of up to $190B of shareholder equity & wealth (where some folks lost their entire retirement savings in worthless stock) and the desctruction of the 5th largest corporation in the United States & its supporting industries, like Anderson Consulting, etc. ad nauseum. It starts to stack up. Evil greed and the devastation brought upon innocent people’s lives like what this crime syndicate did (the effects of which continue) should never go unpunished, and our sympathies should lie with the families who are the victims in this instance instead of the individual — one of many — capable of evil greed in shockingly epic proportion.
I, like many posters, only wish he’d suffered in prison — as was his JUST CONVICTION in May — before he died.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:09 pmthis is some sort of hoax… i would not believe it…he is in brazil.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:12 pmCalling for decency is vile? You sure a twisted little bitch aren’t you.
Comment by Antagonist — July 5, 2006 @ 11:56 am
I forget you neocons don’t have long-term memories. You only remember stuff from the previous quarter, or the last big tax cut…
You are habitually nasty to people. I was referencing that. Though, your post in here was hypocritical… Anyone who supports a war aimed at “killing bad guys” cannot take the moral road on the death of a man who was a pretty bad fellow.
My father used to say that people reached the level of their intelligence when they resorted to calling your curse words. Never takes you very long.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:14 pmKen Lay is in Palm Beach FL drinking Mohitos with Osama and Cheney.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:16 pmHe isn’t dead. He has been disappeared and will no doubt turn up alive and well living high off the hog in the UAE or some remote tropical island.
Oldest trick in the book to avoid prison.
Oh ….look ma, I’m dead!
get it?
Yeah…you get it.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:16 pmthis is some sort of hoax… i would not believe it…he is in brazil.
Comment by ann coulter
Ken Lay:”Man, it’s mighty hot here; am I in Brazil?”
July 5th, 2006 at 12:16 pm#136 – Since you bring it up…
The energy crisis in CA was the result of the pre-mature deregulation of the energy market. Unusually high temps that summer led to a spike in demand, a pike that exceeded the capability of the infrastructure fulfill. This can happen even in markets where no fraud is alleged (ie., TX this spring.)
There was an alleged attempt by Enron to manipulate the market, but there is ZERO evidence they were successful, even slightly. If you can find evidence to the contrary, I would LOVE to read it (I live on that crap).
Now to your claim: can you show me an article, anywhere, from any source, that claims even one elderly person died as a result of not having air conditioning?
July 5th, 2006 at 12:16 pmit looks as if tony snow is using grecian formula in his hair…mmm, that’s hot!
kisses,
ann
July 5th, 2006 at 12:22 pmYou’ve lost the argument, go back to the little trollcave where you came from.
Unbelievable and the rest of us kicked your ass and won.
HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!
Comment by JIMBO — July 5, 2006 @ 12:06 pm
Unfortunately, his fear of the boogeyman is so great that he has lost touch with reality on any level. Never gets when he’s been exposed or debunked. Kinda sad really, if it weren’t so dangerous for our country that people like this think they get to define ‘good’ and ‘bad’, and that those in the ‘bad’ pile are fair game to abuse, taunt or murder. The Right makes me sick. A bunch of self-righteous and greedy pigs with no regard for anything or anyone they don’t personally endorse.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:23 pmJust proves when you’re rich you don’t have to pay for anything you do. Wonder if he had 7 virgins waiting for him in heaven, like the other American Talibanis who are destroying freedom? Hear that Bush, Frist, & co?!
July 5th, 2006 at 12:26 pmken lay dead? wha??
well, if true–and, i agree with ann, it is a hoax–i say throw his corpse in general population and have it violated repeatedly, just in case it is him…anyone remember the sam kinnison bit?
the judge could also suggest a ‘pee on ken lay’s corpse’ portion of the burial ceremony…
if he is dead, that isn’t good enough!!!
July 5th, 2006 at 12:27 pmI’m not at all happy Lay has poassed, I don’t really celebrate the death of others. In the long run he was still someone’s son, father, husband. He oversaw unethical practices that destroyed lives so I can understand why people are angry at him, but there is always another side.
Of course if Enron was completley unsuccessful, why would they have settled for 1.5 billion? Why the accusations? Why were they noted for buying California Electricity and then selling iut back at 3X & 4X cost? You don’t need to defend them just because they are abranch of the GOP corruption wing. They did wrong and knew it.
The Federal Energy Regulatory Commission concluded in 2003:[3]
“…supply-demand imbalance, flawed market design and inconsistent rules made possible significant market manipulation as delineated in final investigation report. Without underlying market dysfunction, attempts to manipulate the market would not be successful.”
“…many trading strategies employed by Enron and other companies violated the anti-gaming provisions…”
“Electricity prices in California’s spot markets were affected by economic withholding and inflated price bidding, in violation of tariff anti-gaming provisions.”
Not in the FERC conclusion:
One of the energy wholesalers that became notorious for “gaming the market” and reaping huge speculative profits was Enron Corporation. Enron CEO Ken Lay mocked the efforts by the California State government to thwart the practices of the energy wholesalers, saying, “In the final analysis, it doesn’t matter what you crazy people in California do, because I got smart guys who can always figure out how to make money.”[6]
July 5th, 2006 at 12:30 pmS. David Freeman, who was appointed Chair of the California Power Authority in the midst of the crisis, made the following statements about Enron’s involvement in testimony submitted before the Subcommittee on Consumer Affairs, Foreign Commerce and Tourism of the Senate Committee on Commerce, Science and Transportation on May 15, 2002:
“There is one fundamental lesson we must learn from this experience: electricity is really different from everything else. It cannot be stored, it cannot be seen, and we cannot do without it, which makes opportunities to take advantage of a deregulated market endless. It is a public good that must be protected from private abuse. If Murphy’s Law were written for a market approach to electricity, then the law would state “any system that can be gamed, will be gamed, and at the worst possible time.†And a market approach for electricity is inherently gameable. Never again can we allow private interests to create artificial or even real shortages and to be in control.”
“Enron stood for secrecy and a lack of responsibility. In electric power, we must have openness and companies that are responsible for keeping the lights on. We need to go back to companies that own power plants with clear responsibilities for selling real power under long-term contracts. There is no place for companies like Enron that own the equivalent of an electronic telephone book and game the system to extract an unnecessary middleman’s profits. Companies with power plants can compete for contracts to provide the bulk of our power at reasonable prices that reflect costs. People say that Governor Davis has been vindicated by the Enron confession.”
Enron eventually went bankrupt, and signed a $1.52 billion settlement with a group of California agencies and private utilities on July 16, 2005. However, due to its other bankruptcy obligations, only $202 million of this was expected to be paid. Ken Lay was convicted of multiple criminal charges unrelated to the California energy crisis on May 25, 2006.
There was an alleged attempt by Enron to manipulate the market, but there is ZERO evidence they were successful, even slightly. If you can find evidence to the contrary, I would LOVE to read it (I live on that crap). Comment by Chase — July 5, 2006 @ 12:16 pm
Now will you STFU!
Enron Traders Caught On Tape
CBS) When a forest fire shut down a major transmission line into California, cutting power supplies and raising prices, Enron energy traders celebrated, CBS News Correspondent Vince Gonzales reports.
“Burn, baby, burn. That’s a beautiful thing,” a trader sang about the massive fire.
Four years after California’s disastrous experiment with energy deregulation, Enron energy traders can be heard – on audiotapes obtained by CBS News – gloating and praising each other as they helped bring on, and cash-in on, the Western power crisis.
“He just f—s California,” says one Enron employee. “He steals money from California to the tune of about a million.”
“Will you rephrase that?” asks a second employee.
“OK, he, um, he arbitrages the California market to the tune of a million bucks or two a day,” replies the first.
The tapes, from Enron’s West Coast trading desk, also confirm what CBS reported years ago: that in secret deals with power producers, traders deliberately drove up prices by ordering power plants shut down.
“If you took down the steamer, how long would it take to get it back up?” an Enron worker is heard saying.
“Oh, it’s not something you want to just be turning on and off every hour. Let’s put it that way,” another says.
“Well, why don’t you just go ahead and shut her down.”
Officials with the Snohomish Public Utility District near Seattle received the tapes from the Justice Department.
“This is the evidence we’ve all been waiting for. This proves they manipulated the market,” said Eric Christensen, a spokesman for the utility.
That utility, like many others, is trying to get its money back from Enron.
“They’re f——g taking all the money back from you guys?” complains an Enron employee on the tapes. “All the money you guys stole from those poor grandmothers in California?”
“Yeah, grandma Millie, man”
“Yeah, now she wants her f——g money back for all the power you’ve charged right up, jammed right up her a—— for f——g $250 a megawatt hour.”
And the tapes appear to link top Enron officials Ken Lay and Jeffrey Skilling to schemes that fueled the crisis.
“Government Affairs has to prove how valuable it is to Ken Lay and Jeff Skilling,” says one trader.
“Ok.”
“Do you know when you started over-scheduling load and making buckets of money on that?
Before the 2000 election, Enron employees pondered the possibilities of a Bush win.
“It’d be great. I’d love to see Ken Lay Secretary of Energy,” says one Enron worker.
That didn’t happen, but they were sure President Bush would fight any limits on sky-high energy prices.
“When this election comes Bush will f——g whack this s–t, man. He won’t play this price-cap b——t.”
Crude, but true.
“We will not take any action that makes California’s problems worse and that’s why I oppose price caps,” said Mr. Bush on May 29, 2001.
Both the Justice Department and Enron tried to prevent the release of these tapes. Enron’s lawyers argued they merely prove “that people at Enron sometimes talked like Barnacle Bill the Sailor.”
July 5th, 2006 at 12:31 pmken lay dead? wha??
well, if true–and, i agree with ann, it is a hoax–i say throw his corpse in general population and have it violated repeatedly, just in case it is him…anyone remember the sam kinnison bit?
the judge could also suggest a ‘pee on ken lay’s corpse’ portion of the burial ceremony…
if he is dead, that isn’t good enough!!!
C’mon now…I didn’t even go that far. Besides, his violation would have been way more fun if he would have made it to the pen.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:31 pmLet me repeat the call for a very careful DNA and dental record check. If there was ever a case for “faking ones death”, this is it.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:32 pmNow to your claim: can you show me an article, anywhere, from any source, that claims even one elderly person died as a result of not having air conditioning?
Comment by Chase — July
Is absence of evidence, evidence of absence? I have looked and have not found any articles, so point to you in that regard. But do you really think it didn’t effect the elderly poor? This affected the entire state; and drove people out of business.
The energy crisis in CA was the result of the pre-mature deregulation of the energy market.
Since you been following this crap, do you know who instituted this deregulation scheme?
July 5th, 2006 at 12:32 pm#147: There’s a wealth of knowledge in BOOKS. Perhaps you’ve heard of them? I cited a few in my previous post, and Eichenwald goes through painstaking detail in how Enron was DIRECTLY involved in the California energy crisis in “Conspiracy of Fools.” But since books are so passe, here’s an ONLINE tip sheet on Ken Lay while @ Enron:
http://www.therestofus.org/factsheets/kenlay.html
http://www.therestofus.org/factsheets/kenlay.pdf
In particular, the CA blackouts:
But there’s no connection whatsoever, right?
July 5th, 2006 at 12:32 pm#151 – mark – do you have the link to that? i would like to read in it’s entirety.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:33 pmCould Kenny have been suicided for what he knows about Shrubco. and Iraq? People start to sing when they have nothing left to lose, or maybe he felt betrayed by his peeps who never came to his rescue?
July 5th, 2006 at 12:39 pmIn addition to the audiotapes, Snohomish went on to search Enron accounting sheets, documenting that Enron gouged Western customers for $1.1 billion during the crunch. In one instance, Enron pocketed $222,000 in three hours by shipping power from California into Oregon, and then back to California at wildly inflated prices. Blackouts were rolling across California at the time.
http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/localnews/2003092360_websnohopud28.html
July 5th, 2006 at 12:40 pmMy ass Lay had a heart attack!!!!! The man’s been on suicide watch for the last month and now, all of a sudden, he has a massive heart attack?? Timing is just too coincidental, yet the PR spin around a suicide being called a coronary coincides with the right wing thinking that the American public is stupid and will believe anything they’re told. Oh wait, the fact that 45% of the country still thinks Iraq was behind 9/11 definitely proves that!
Suicide that would prove he was guilty about something = heart attack that would cover that up and garner sympathy for “Kenny Boy.” The Right Wing two-step.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:41 pmThe CIA developed a pill that can induce a heart attack, and leave no trace, so was Kenny Boy Lay eliminated as a birthday present for Dubya Dunce Decider today? Dead men tell no tales > they could not allow Ken to spill the beans on Bush, like Duke Cunningham did on Tom DeLay and other GOP politicians in DC!
July 5th, 2006 at 12:42 pmOr he just had a heart attack like so many other men his age….
July 5th, 2006 at 12:47 pmChase, read my post of #134 again. I think you misquoted me on your post of #137.
July 5th, 2006 at 12:51 pmNow that much of South America has turned towards the left, where will good fascists hole up? the melting Arctic?
July 5th, 2006 at 12:51 pmNow that much of South America has turned towards the left, where will good fascists hole up? the melting Arctic?
The white house?
July 5th, 2006 at 12:55 pm#163 – Maybe not. I think I was responding to this:
July 5th, 2006 at 1:01 pm
Now that much of South America has turned towards the left, where will good fascists hole up? the melting Arctic?
well, i have a rather nice place on the upper-east side of manhattan…
kisses,
ann
July 5th, 2006 at 1:03 pm…it all plays and unfolds like a B movie script, doesn’t it? ………………pure fiction
July 5th, 2006 at 1:06 pmProving once again, that you can’t take it all with you when you die, even if you have to give it all up and go to prison for criminal deeds anyway.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:07 pmIf it turns out he actually is dead, and of a heart attack, will all you clowns that are making fools of yourselves by saying otherwise admit it?
Nah. That’s asking too much.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:08 pm#157 = Chase,
July 5th, 2006 at 1:12 pmThis is a link to the CBS story.
Chase – you are the one who decides to come here – why do you care so much about what we think?
July 5th, 2006 at 1:13 pmDoes anyone know if Michelle Malkin rsponded to this news with a big “boo frickin’ hoo?”
July 5th, 2006 at 1:14 pm#172 – I come here b’c living in an echo chamber is no fun. I like to hear other ideas that challenge my own, and in arguing my beliefs, I am forced to understand them. That way I can better justify them or, when I’m convinced, they can be moved. To sit and comment with a bunch of convervatives who feel the same I do, that does me no good.
In any event, I think that from time-to-time, especially here, the discourse devolves to shit. Saying “HE ISNT REALLY DEAD! THIS IS A HOAX! IT WAS THE CIA” is a prime example.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:17 pmChase, you were right (for once) . It was your response to what I said on that post.
But take time though to read madashell’s post. there’s some useful info to convince you that Lay and Skilling deserved to be jailed as well as suffer heart attacks.
And kindly respect the view of others that Lay may have faked his own death. They have a point when they demand to see him with an open casket as well as a copy of his death certificate. They are not clowns or conspiract theorists. They are just honest Americans.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:18 pmLily – I got brave a checked – no comment yet. I noticed something about her face, though. Wide set eyes – explains a lot – the product of an alcoholic mother?
July 5th, 2006 at 1:19 pmshow me a video of the autopsy–show me the m.e. pulling the rotting death out of his criminal carcass and comparing them to the records…show me video of him collapsing and clutching his chest. burn his corpse in a pyre in downtown houston so that all can see the beast.
if you can’t, then i would suggest that the timing of this is much too convenient…the burden of proving how and if this beast died is not OURS, but, is on the aspen police and the other relevant authorities.
how simply stupid it is of some to suggest our speculations are somehow foolish?
July 5th, 2006 at 1:20 pmI come here b’c living in an echo chamber is no fun. I like to hear other ideas that challenge my own, and in arguing my beliefs, I am forced to understand them. That way I can better justify them or, when I’m convinced, they can be moved. To sit and comment with a bunch of convervatives who feel the same I do, that does me no good.
Good for you. No seriously. Now, can you convince those clowns at Free Republic to let me back on their board? I mean, post one little blog article comparing Bush to Hitler and they get their panties in a bunch. No dissent whatsoever is allowed on that board.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:21 pmIn any event, I think that from time-to-time, especially here, the discourse devolves to shit. Saying “HE ISNT REALLY DEAD! THIS IS A HOAX! IT WAS THE CIA†is a prime example.
Comment by Chase — July 5, 2006 @ 1:17 pm
I bet a 10 second search on Newsmax or any right wing blog would produce much much worse.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:22 pmann hacked into my account again! #177 is mine!
July 5th, 2006 at 1:22 pm#175 – Ha, I’m glad I’ve finally broken my “right” virginity.
I agree they deserve to be jailed. I’ve been predicting they’ll both die in prison. Seems Lay jumped the gun. I refuse to say he deserved a heart attack. Reminds me when many said Laura Ingraham deserved breast cancer. I think that kind of rhetoric is ugly and inappropriate.
And I don’t think anyone here has the right to “demand” to see an open casket. I mean really.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:22 pmthe pork chops are here,lets eat.karma is alive and well.reckon the rest of the energy task force is worried.must be hiding from the prince of darkness.i guess one really does get paid for the bad they do.beware rethugs the real god is watching.peace,bj
July 5th, 2006 at 1:23 pmLooks like Kenny’s heart held back the much needed and depended upon blood to the rest of his body much in the way his Enron did with energy to it’s customers.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:26 pm#178 – Sorry, no such luck. I haven’t risen to a position of power high enough within the vast right wing conspiracy to reinstate you.
#179 – I’m sure it would. I never said there weren’t a ton of idiots on the right. We certainly don’t have a monopoly on morons.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:27 pmIt is so obvious that Lay comitted suicide, just like that other Enron thief. A “massive heart attack”? Come on. Kenny Boy looked perfectly healthy when he was convicted. He just didn’t want justice to be carried out. I say cut up his flesh into small pieces foe every Enron employee and small-time investor that lost everything because of that jerk.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
July 5th, 2006 at 1:28 pmOur Constitution: Going…going…gone.:
Plus, view the indictment of the U.S. soldier that raped a 15-year-old Iraqi girl. An SSA exclusive:
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
Chase – what I’ve several times on this thread is that you can’t take a few nutcase comments here and there and blanket a whole group because of it.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:33 pmIt is really nice down here in the Grand Caymens. Thanks for the use of Air Force One Georgie Boy. I won’t say a word.
-Ken Lay
July 5th, 2006 at 1:36 pm#186 – Well it’s the rule rather than the exception today.
And the nutcase stuff doesn’t really bother me, I just don’t understand it.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:37 pm#157 is’t just Wikipedia where I got it, but they have the links to the sources.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:40 pm#189 – thanks – i’ll check ‘er out.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:41 pmThe “he’s not dead” conspiracy stuff is as amusing as the Clinton killed Vince Foster Stuff except on one front. People took the Foster thing seriously because of the slant of the media, the Lay conspiracy theories will nto hit the legitimate news ever.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:43 pmlet me try to explain it to you then. over the past five years, reality has become incomprehensible. thoughts that ten years ago would seem impossible, today seem somewhat rational. would it actually surprise you to know that a multi-millionaire with connections to bush over the past dozen years would find a way to get out of being raped in prison for the rest of his life? would it actually surprise you if the govt killed him to keep him quiet in case he, pre-sentencing, decides to say, ‘yes, we met with cheney…we paid him off..blah blah blah’?
if these are surprising, dear chase, then i suggest you are the DAMNED FOOL in this building today…
it is, in my humble opinion, equally rational to believe this beast’s heart exploded today as it is to believe he spent a miniscule portion of his fortune to fake this death. it is also plausible that the govt would kill him since almost half of the population believes the killing of 3,000 was an inside job.
so, chase, you seem to be thinking in a pre-9/11 mindset, where reality had a certainty it no longer has.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:44 pmI’ll bet most of Enron’s scammed pensioners are doing the jig right now. Next best thing to getting your money back.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:45 pm#192 – allow me to parse:
i dont see how his connection to bush would make him find a way out of prison but… no, it wouldnt have shocked me had he committed suicide. and if the autopsy reveals a suicide, i dont be shocked.
i would be shocked beyond belief. that would be the most shocking bit of information i would have ever heard. suffice to say, i dont expect to hear that.
you think it’s equally as likely he faked his death as he died of a heart attack? fascinating.
1. one has nothing to do with another.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:53 pm2. “almost half”? what half? where do you get this from? nowhere. not anywhere at all. silly silly silly and dumb.
Ok James #192 – you are way off course. I have to agree with Chase on this, you are far, far, far away into tin-foil hat territory.
July 5th, 2006 at 1:56 pmI second James Risser! Exactly. Sorry, chase but the right has brought all of this skepticism on itself with it’s continual lying. Try aligning yourself with a group that tells the truth for Christ’s sake, …literally .
July 5th, 2006 at 2:00 pmHey! Let’s not speak so ill of tinfoil hats! They’re surprisingly fashionable. And they keep aliens from reading our minds!
July 5th, 2006 at 2:01 pmalmost half� what half? where do you get this from? nowhere. not anywhere at all. silly silly silly and dumb.
Comment by Chase — July 5, 2006 @ 1:53 pm
What would you know? Have you searched anywhere besides the MSM? Here’s an idea – read a little history of this country, and then google FALSE FLAGGING.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:03 pmBut why would the US government false flag its own people. And where is the link to whatever poll indicating 1/2 of all people believe it to be true?
July 5th, 2006 at 2:05 pmCheney and his ilk were still pissed off at Kennedy for dealing with Cuban Missle Crisis diplomatically – avoiding a NUCLEAR HOLOCAUST. It is now common knowledge for those who seek the truth, that Kennedy quashed the plan to stage an attack and make it look like the Castro did it. Probably why he also had to die.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:07 pmThey killed Kenny!!
July 5th, 2006 at 2:09 pmOK. I didn’t think that thru. Nevermind the “why”. I can imagine the answers. But I come from a large extended liberal family with lots of liberal friends and I don’t know of one who believes the Bush Admin is directly responsible for 911. That’s a horrible statement to make without proof, and I say that as someone who has no respect for the President.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:09 pmWilco – if you don’t think Cheney and the neocons aren’t capable of such acts, read what they are about.
The Project for the New American Century.
The Plan is for the United States to rule the world.
and this one – written in 2003!
Will Iran Be Next?
July 5th, 2006 at 2:12 pmWell, that’s not entirely true. The man has great posture. I respect him for that.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:12 pmYou’re right, Wilco, in one aspect – BUSH isn’t a neocon – he is simply their puppet.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:14 pmI just think it’s an enormous leap to mass murder of US citizens. It doesn’t ring true to me. Sure, it’s possible as anything is possible, but I don’t buy it. Someone show me proof! There’s too much wild conjecture.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:15 pmWilco – I am with you on this one. My husband and daughter keep trying to get me to watch a documentary titled “Loose Change” which supports the position that the twin towers were purposely destroyed.
Don’t get me wrong, I hate Bush, but I cannot imagine anyone, even people as evil and despicible as he and his cabal are, could do something so horrible.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:16 pmSometimes I wake up and think maybe Bush is really smart. He’s devious and cunning, that he can’t be that big an idiot. But that’s usually morning’s I’m hungover.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:18 pmJules – regarding Loose Change – why are you afraid to watch it?
OMG – LOOK at what they have done to the world. How can you not even consider the possibility? They have almost TOTAL CONTROL of everything. And, why, why, why, did they NOT WANT TO INVESTIGATE 9/11 IN THE FIRST PLACE?
July 5th, 2006 at 2:18 pmJules – the fact will always remain – THEY GOT THEIR WAR.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:21 pmchase,
1. here is a link to zogby poll regarding the 42% figure. most visitors to this site would know this, i am sorry for you that you are not familiar with it.
2. would it actually surprise you if the govt killed him to keep him quiet in case he, pre-sentencing, decides to say, ‘yes, we met with cheney…we paid him off..blah blah blah’?
i would be shocked beyond belief. that would be the most shocking bit of information i would have ever heard. suffice to say, i dont expect to hear that.
if that is the case, chase, then i have shown that you have the tin-hat on the relationship between lay and cheney and the energy commission meetings.
3. if you cannot comprehend what the reasons why ‘ken lay is dead’ is not ripe for differing opinions as to its cause or existence, then, you need to read a newspaper.
have a nice day,
james
July 5th, 2006 at 2:21 pm179–on the fence
“I bet a 10 second search on Newsmax or any right wing blog would produce much much worse.”
a quick search of other threads here would reveal some nutty stuff spouted by the right–including racial and anti-gay slurs, and unsupported assertions that turn out to be completely false
check out comments re: the NY Times–both here and elsewhere, where righties call for blood…
sorry to get off topic, just wanted to make clear (and I see others have observed this as well, in different ways) that wackiness is by no means confined to the left
July 5th, 2006 at 2:21 pmJules, if you can’t imagine it, then where’s the harm in watching it?
July 5th, 2006 at 2:23 pmBut using this “reasoning” I can argue the government is responsible for my bad alternator. Look at what they’re doing over the world! Maybe they used an EMP to disable the alternator to get it into a garage which of course all work with the government, just like the phone companies. And since 6 years ago I had dinner at Aladdin’s on Cedar in Cleveland Heights, they want to track my automotive movements.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:25 pmThis is what happens when one speculates. There is no proof, only suspicion.
one more comment and I will let it go…you all know who cheney is, how can you think he has even an ounce of integrity or honor? and don’t forget his comment: “We need another pearl harbor….”
July 5th, 2006 at 2:25 pmDon’t get me wrong, I hate Bush, but I cannot imagine anyone, even people as evil and despicible as he and his cabal are, could do something so horrible.
jules,
yes, it is incredible to think so, but, more and more people are realizing that this group of war-criminals and facists is up to the task. not since hitler has ‘normal’ citizens been forced to consider that, yes, there are people who would do something so horrible….
i don’t know if they did, obviously. and, they may have had no participation; but, i have reached the point where i no longer would be shocked to hear that they did participate.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:27 pm206 “I just think it’s an enormous leap to mass murder of US citizens. It doesn’t ring true to me. Sure, it’s possible as anything is possible, but I don’t buy it. Someone show me proof! There’s too much wild conjecture.”
agreed. I am no fan of Bush or his admin. But the idea that he or anyone in his admin actually did 9/11 is preposterous. did they screw up the response? yeah. failed to get OBL? yes (even shut down the CIA unit assigned to look for him) screwed up by attacking Iraq instead of the people who came at us on 9/11? yeah gave reasons for going to war in Iraq that were wrong? yeah
there are many reasons to criticize this administration. Saying they may have done 9/11 is not a good one–no matter how many people may think this is possible.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:27 pmokay, okay, Wilco, point taken. But have you seen Loose Change? Why are you so scared to look into this issue deeper? The fact will always remain, that Cheney fought tooth and nail to keep an investigation from happening. again, I ask, WHY?
July 5th, 2006 at 2:27 pm#214
with all due respect to your alternator, i think an alleged dead ken lay trumps it…
July 5th, 2006 at 2:30 pmWow. That is one wild interpretation of that poll. I never read where it stated 42% of people believe the Admin performed the hijackings, just that there was something being covered up. Like how it was reported that all negative info on the Saudis was redacted. Please find another poll that actually supports the assertion that 1/2 of americans believe the Admin directed 9/11.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:31 pmKen Lay had NO history of heart trouble, but he drops dead unexpectedly before he gets sentenced for his crimes, so according to Bush Regime defenders on here > we are not supposed to be suspicious about it? VP Cheney has a bad heart, so if he dropped dead tomorrow I would NOT be suspicious, but Kenny Boy dying today of a heart attack does not pass the smell test!
July 5th, 2006 at 2:31 pmJules, Wilco, et. al, can you humor some of us and take a look:
July 5th, 2006 at 2:34 pmhttp://www.scholarsfor911truth.org/
And also, if it’s 50%, then those of you here who believe the Admin was behind 9/11 please speak up now. If you believe they were complicit, and I don’t mean “indirectly” or anything like that, I mean someone cabinet-level or above ordered the hijackings. If you believe this, please let us know. I refuse to believe it’s 1/2 of the population. I refuse believe it’s even half of THIS population. And I think the statement is insulting to those it accuses. But, if I truly am wrong, please let me know. I will shut up if just 1/2 of you state it’s what you truly believe. So please speak up. If I’m wrong, let me know.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:36 pmyou know i love the Someone show me proof! people…
proof, absent subpoena power, can only be ’shown’ circumstantially. if you haven’t seen ’some proof’ circumstantially through the several conjectures and videos, then, what you are asking is impossible to supply, unless you would through some miracle, give, say, a group of lawyers, subpoena power.
would you prefer, since we can’t subpoena the administration, to avoid the circumstantial evidence and the conjectures? would you rather, to use your analogy, be wrapped completely in aluminum foil and put into the crisper???
July 5th, 2006 at 2:36 pmWilco, and if you have problems linking to Lily’s post, then you might want to see who the scholars are:
Scholars for 9/11 Truth
July 5th, 2006 at 2:38 pmWho Are We?
Wilco – all we can do is have you link to the posts that Lily and I provided.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:42 pmWow. That is one wild interpretation of that poll. I never read where it stated 42% of people believe the Admin performed the hijackings, just that there was something being covered up. Like how it was reported that all negative info on the Saudis was redacted. Please find another poll that actually supports the assertion that 1/2 of americans believe the Admin directed 9/11.
actually, i stated that it was an ‘inside job’. are you suggesting that the administration would cover up something for which they had no participation?
the level of that participation is believed, by almost half of those polled, is worthy of their active ‘cover up’…
July 5th, 2006 at 2:43 pmwho GAINED the most from the crime? who had the MOTIVE? who could have done the MOST to prevent it? all three answers are the same: the bush crime family and its minions
I think they were complicit but don’t have any proof to back that up…just a personal belief, and I would never accuse them without the evidence.
However, while the theories don’t hold much water, the merit of the questions that need answered cannot be questioned. There are some good and provocative questions that need answered…we’ll see where that leads us.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:44 pmJimmy, when accusing someone of mass murder, I don’t see how upsetting it is to ask for evidence, EVEN circumstantial (of which you’ve provided none).
July 5th, 2006 at 2:46 pmAnd even to me I seem ridiculous in writing this, but I could only take a cursory look at lily’s link since I’m hard at work, but it seems pretty partisan. Again, I’d like to see whatever proof they’re using in making these accusations. I’ll take a closer look at home.
Wilco – thank you very much. You are part of the population that Bushco were counting on.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:48 pm#228
may i suggest that you think of it as a prosecutor would then? they are, in your opinion, indictable…and, if you could, you would INVESTIGATE whether or not your instincts, based on circumstantial evidence, is correct. and, if so, you would accuse them of the crime.
since no one can INVESTIGATE, absent subpoena power, all you have is the circumstancial and conjecture.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:50 pmIts fun to demonize people, and put ourselves above others.
We do it all the time.
Ken Lay may have done some bad things, but he did not deserve to die for them.
How many of you steal in one form or another everyday from your companies? How many of you take home company supplies? How many of you take sick leave for vacations? How many of you take longer breaks than you are permitted, while still billing your company for your time?
Hell how many of you are in a blog right now when you’re supposed to be working?
Lays crimes were larger in size and intensity to be sure, and impacted many lives. And for that he was tried, and awaiting sentence.
The fact that he died, should give no one pleasure. We should all try to show some respect, some decency.
Some class.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:51 pmGood job mad! Actually, the Reps count on angry conspiracy loving bush hating people like you. I’ll believe whatever someone tells me as long as they can back it up. (Oh, and I can’t stand Bush either, and I love a good conspiracy too, just one with some sort of evidence I can cling to.)
July 5th, 2006 at 2:52 pmwho GAINED the most from the crime? who had the MOTIVE? who could have done the MOST to prevent it? all three answers are the same: the bush crime family and its minions
i made these statements bold with the hope that you would answer them. but, if you prefer to be hermetically sealed in aluminum foil and lie in your crisper and not question the bush fable that is so much more convenient, have a nice rest amongst the cucumbers and the bologna…
July 5th, 2006 at 2:54 pmWilco is raising some very reasonable and fair points.
He is not a dupe, not “part of the population that Bushco [was] counting on”.
I agree with Wilco and all of this — and I 100% reject Bush and his “policies”
I just think we can reject Bush while sticking with the facts, some of which I mentioned earlier
I do (kind of) understand the emotional impulse to see the Bush admin behind everything bad that happens. But if we wildly accuse them of things like this, we lose credibility.
It should tell you something that even people who are very critical of Bush find the theory that he and his admin were behind 9/11 or somehow complicit in it (whatever that means exactly) off base.
I mean no ill will and I know I won’t convince anyone, but I hope you will consider what I am saying
July 5th, 2006 at 2:54 pm232 amen Worfeus
I don’t rejoice in death–not anyone’s
July 5th, 2006 at 2:55 pmWilco- We’ll talk more when you “research” more on the Scholars. Oh, also you can watch Loose Change on line. By the way, I’m more apt to listen to the scientists.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:57 pm#231 – all I am saying is that I would love to follow the evidence and see where it leads without interference….but accusing without evidence does not make the argument that he was complicit any more valid.
#232 Ken Lay may have done some bad things, but he did not deserve to die for them.
Nobody killed this man. You make it sound as if he was killed in cold blood and we are condoning it. That simply isn’t the case.
July 5th, 2006 at 2:57 pmall you skeptics re 911 – THINK OUTSIDE THE BOX!
July 5th, 2006 at 2:59 pmWORFEUS > Ken Lay was a massive criminal who bilked Californians out of billions of dollars > he deserved ZERO respect in life and deserves ZERO respect in death now! I sold my business just over a year ago, so am taking some time off before I get back into the rat race again!
My only concern is his death seems suspicious?!
July 5th, 2006 at 3:01 pmLook, most cases are tried and won with circumstantial evidence. It’s rare that there’s a witness to a crime. But I haven’t even seen anything circumstantial. Absolutely no cases are won with conjecture and hearsay. You need something to back it up.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:01 pmWilco, I think if you do take a closer look, you will see it is not partisan. At least look at this one article. It’s written by a physicist, and as I stated in a previous TP post, I have a BS in physics. If the towers collapsed as asserted in the official report, then this collapse defied the laws of physics.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:02 pmhttp://911review.com/articles/griffin/nyc1.html
Wilco – WE KEEP TRYING TO.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:03 pm#235
many people are still in denial about the evil nature of the bush crime family. as exemplified in this thread, some people ‘just can’t believe that they could be so evil’. denial in such cases is a strong motivator. however, if one strips the denial away, and realizes that true evil exists in the white house, then, it is actually ‘freeing’…
i mentioned 9/11 earlier to make the case that if the bush crime family would cover-up and possibly participate in the murder of 3000 civilians in the usa, then, offing ken lay is certainly quite simple to believe. in the alternative, if he is NOT dead, it is equally believable that, considering the influence of the energy cabal on the bush crime family, that they would assist him in escaping sentencing.
that is my argument. if you DOUBTERS have a better argument, then, please argue why my argument is wrong…don’t just tell me you don’t like it and offer tin-foil hat comments in return. it is getting old…
July 5th, 2006 at 3:03 pm#198 – This is not an MSM v. blogosphere thing – this is a right or wrong. PS – I understand “false flagging”. It didn’t happen on 9/11. Clear?
#211 – find me a link on the zogby site (i cannot) that reflects that poll.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:06 pmmadashell–I appreciate your energy about this–and thinking outside the box is often a great thing.
this one just doesn’t make sense–I saw your links to PNAC and the 9/11 Scholars and looked at a bit of this. It just doesn’t make sense.
I agree the admin screwed up–Bush should have done something (at least come back from his vacation!) when he was handed a memo in August 2001 that warned of attack against the US. But it is such a leap to believe the 9/11 attacks were a hoax and that the US govt actually orchestrated this
some things just don’t pass the “straght face” test. If someone told me the moon were really made of cheese, and that they had scientific evidence to back this up, I just couldn’t bring myself to entertain the theory
In no way do I mean to mock you madashell. The moon/cheese thing was just something that popped into my head. as I said, I admire your energy and passion. But maybe you can understand why some of us are skeptical–and it might not be that we are sheep or mindless drones…
July 5th, 2006 at 3:06 pmWilco – thank you very much. You are part of the population that Bushco were counting on.
Comment by madashell — July 5, 2006 @ 2:48 pm
This is unfair, off-base, and wholly uncalled for.
I have never stopped criticising Pres Bush’s many failed policies and initiatives, one of which is the illegal invasion of Iraq -and, actually whether or not they are failed depends on what tax bracket you happen to be in, but I digress. However, to claim the Bush administration had a hand in the 9/11 attacks is too much even for me.
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence. Let’s see some evidence beyond arguments from incredulity.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:09 pmWilco, I think some of us are saying our assertions can be backed up if you’ll only view Loose Change, and even more, in my opinion, read the articles posted on Scholars for Truth.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:09 pmJay, I understand he was a bad guy, at least if we are to believe the government. Remember Lay maintained his innocence up until his death.
I don’t know all the facts, and I’m not his judge. Our legal system took care of that, and determined he had broken the law, and cost a lot of people a lot of money.
Well he’s not the first man in the world to do that now is he?
I am not giving him a pass.
But in my family, we don’t rejoice in the death of another human being. We feel sad. Sad he didn’t have more time to repent of his crimes in this life, and possibly help right some of the wrongs he was responsible for.
I learned to show respect for the dead at a young age, and I am just pointing out that it would be nice to see a little basic human decency. A little class. (not that you’re not classy Jay, I always support your comments).
Republicans rejoice at the deaths of others.
We should be better than that.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:10 pmTo everyone that thinks Ken Lay is due some kind of respect because he is dead. F***off. We have a time honored tradition in Texas that if we have no use for the bastard when he is alive, death doesn’t cut him any slack.
Do you think Kennyboy had any respect for the people he stole from? Hell no. I say I won’t believe he is dead until I see him hung from a lamp post by his heels.
We were ALL victims of the bastards crimes since his crimes started when he sat down with pencil DICK Cheney. Kennyboys crimes did not end with his death.
Kick the bastard some more.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:10 pmeblair – like I said I will listen to the EXPERTS.
Here are some of the kinds of considerations that these experts and scholars find profoundly troubling:
In the history of structural engineering, steel-frame high-rise buildings have never been brought down due to fires either before or since 9/11, so how can fires have brought down three in one day? How is this possible?
The BBC has reported that at least five of the nineteen alleged “hijackers” have turned up alive and well living in Saudi Arabia, yet according to the FBI, they were among those killed in the attacks. How is this possible?
Frank DeMartini, a project manager for the WTC, said the buildings were designed with load redistribution capabilities to withstand the impact of airliners, whose effects would be like “puncturing mosquito netting with a pencil.” Yet they completely collapsed. How is this possible?
Since the melting point of steel is about 2,700°F, the temperature of jet fuel fires does not exceed 1,800°F under optimal conditions, and UL certified the steel used to 2,000°F for six hours, the buildings cannot have collapsed due to heat from the fires. How is this possible?
Flight 77, which allegedly hit the building, left the radar screen in the vicinity of the Ohio/Kentucky border, only to “reappear” in very close proximity to the Pentagon shortly before impact. How is this possible?
Foreign “terrorists” who were clever enough to coordinate hijacking four commercial airliners seemingly did not know that the least damage to the Pentagon would be done by hitting its west wing. How is this possible?
Secretary of Transportation Norman Mineta, in an underground bunker at the White House, watched Vice President Cheney castigate a young officer for asking, as the plane drew closer and closer to the Pentagon, “Do the orders still stand?” The order cannot have been to shoot it down, but must have been the opposite. How is this possible?
A former Inspector General for the Air Force has observed that Flight 93, which allegedly crashed in Pennsylvania, should have left debris scattered over an area less than the size of a city block; but it is scattered over an area of about eight square miles. How is this possible?
A tape recording of interviews with air traffic controllers on duty on 9/11 was deliberately crushed, cut into very small pieces, and distributed in assorted places to insure its total destruction. How is this possible?
The Pentagon conducted a training exercise called “MASCAL” simulating the crash of a Boeing 757 into the building on 24 October 2000, and yet Condoleezza Rice, among others, has repeatedly asserted that “no one ever imagined” a domestic airplane could be used as a weapon. How is this possible?
July 5th, 2006 at 3:11 pmTheir own physics research has established that only controlled demolitions are consistent with the near-gravity speed of fall and virtually symmetrical collapse of all three of the WTC buildings. While turning concrete into very fine dust, they fell straight-down into their own footprints.
These experts and scholars have found themselves obliged to conclude that the 9/11 atrocity represents an instance of the approach–which has been identified by Karl Rove, the President’s closest adviser–of “creating our own reality.”
Oh, and “thinking out of the box” only asks to consider alternative ideas, not to accept them wholesale. I think it’s entirely possible Bush caused 9/11. I also think it’s incredibly unlikely. Possible, not plausible.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:12 pmWilco – like I said – NOT BUSH, he is NO NEOCON. He is merely their puppet. Get it?
July 5th, 2006 at 3:14 pmWilco and Jules,
I’m with you. Another liberal who thinks the Inside Job hypothesis makes the left look bad. It has too many holes for me. It’s like the Moon Landing Hoax.
madashell,
Just be careful with the subject. Judd doesn’t support the theory and will delete posts with links to it. Just so you know…
July 5th, 2006 at 3:17 pm#253 – Neoconservatives called for 9/11?
July 5th, 2006 at 3:18 pmYeah, I get it. I write “Bush” as representative of the Bush Admin. Puppet or not, he’s responsible. I think calling him a puppet minimalizes his culpability.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:19 pmHow is this possible?
Comment by madashell — July 5, 2006 @ 3:11 pm
This is an argument from incredulity.
The obvious reply to that question is: “My ignorance does not prove you right”.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:19 pmWell, then I guess I’m out of here. Everything is tied to what happened on 9/11. It is the ROOT OF EVERYTHING that has transpired since that fateful day. And in who’s favor did it go? And where did the justification for Iraq come from?
BTW – more and more people are opening their eyes.
Good bye.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:22 pmahh madashell… you can’t leave without answering…
are you saying it was the neoconservatives, not radical muslim militants, that planned and carried out 9/11?
July 5th, 2006 at 3:24 pmChase, let him go. He’s madashell.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:31 pmnone of this makes any sense to me–if this had validity, wouldn’t prominent Democrats (or even ONE elected Dem) be talking about this? I have heard nothing from them.
doesn’t mean Bush is a good president, doesn’t mean he hasn’t screwed up many, many things
July 5th, 2006 at 3:31 pmTo everyone that thinks Ken Lay is due some kind of respect because he is dead. F***off. We have a time honored tradition in Texas that if we have no use for the bastard when he is alive, death doesn’t cut him any slack.
Comment by yankeluh — July 5, 2006 @ 3:10 pm
Well Clem in New York we have a little more class than they do down in Texass.
But I’ll tell you what Clem.
When you go, maybe I’ll make an exception.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:33 pmet all – Please don’t confuse ‘yankeluh’ for a real Texan.
Here in Texas, even when someone we don’t care for passes, we have the respect to remain civil, polite or lacking that, quiet.
He must be a transplant.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:40 pmTo be fair, any prominent Dems who might believe it would be hard-pressed to discuss it. It’s political suicide. Not only would their consituents turn on them but the rest of their party would as well. The only people rooting for them would be their families and the Republicans. And maybe Weird Al Yankovic. He might write a crazy song about them.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:44 pmBy the way, I haven’t seen any proof of the “official” conspiracy theory put forth by the government, that Osama bin Laden was behind the attck.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:46 pmLily, I’m gonna tag in the conservatives to handle this one.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:50 pm#265 – Except for the multiple videos of OBL where he takes credit for the attack, or the 9/11 Commission Report.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:51 pmare you saying it was the neoconservatives, not radical muslim militants, that planned and carried out 9/11?
Comment by Chase — July 5, 2006 @ 3:24 pm
Actually I think the real question isn’t who carried out 911.
We know the Muslim extremists carried out it out.
Question is, did the Bush administration “look the other way”?
July 5th, 2006 at 3:53 pmChase, could you link to those videos? Because I’m wondering if they’re the same ones showing a man who resembles bin Laden writing with his right hand…because bin laden is left-handed.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:56 pmWas he the “Enabler”?
Thats the question.
And given that prior to 911 Bush was rapidly on his way to becoming a Lame Duck President, with a dismal approval rating down in the 30’s, but 911 shot him up to an incredible 89 percent approval rating, its a question that bears asking.
July 5th, 2006 at 3:58 pmClubber – I think that’s a fair question, but I have a very hard time believing the Bush administation had prior knowledge or “looked the other way”. Did they miss obvious signs or “should they have known”? That’s a fair question I don’t mind entertaining.
I would also reject the idea that Bush, less than a year into his first term was on his way to becoming a “Lame Duck”. He was certainly floundering, adrift without a rudder. But to say he was on the verge of being a Lame Duck is a bit strong.
Lily – Yeah, they’re probably the same videos so I won’t waste my time looking for the links. Question for you: how about the moonlanding? Staged?
What a kook.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:04 pmKenny Boy got what he desreved. Although it would have been fun to see if W actually would have pardoned him.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
July 5th, 2006 at 4:10 pmSSA EXCLUSIVE – The newly released indictment of the U.S. soldier that raped and murdered four Iraqi civilians.
and
Our Constitution: Going…going…gone:
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
i think there is only ONE video–the ‘fat / right-handed’ osama video where it is claimed he had anything to do with it… osama is a red-herring, really. the fbi most wanted poster doesn’t list 9/11 either.
i see none of you have taken up my offer to answer my three simple questions:
who GAINED the most from the crime? who had the MOTIVE? who could have done the MOST to prevent it? all three answers are the same: the bush crime family and its minions
only a intelectually dishonest FOOL would ask for cirucmstantial evidence and refuse to look at the major compilations of such evidence, such as the ‘loose change’ video et al.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:17 pmWell Chase he was at an all time low for a newly elected president in the polls.
He was the first President in US history to have his motocade pelted with rotten eggs on his way to his own innauguration.
He was dismal in the polls, had no chance of working with the Democratic leadership who spurned him at every turn, and the New Media were already using the term Lame Duck.
So yes, I’d say he was well on his way to becoming one.
Also we know now that he began his spying program 7 months PRIOR to 911, and there are first hand accounts by military personnel that he had the US military building landing strips in Afghanistan well before 911.
Put this together with his ties to the Bin Ladens, Carslyle Group and the fact that 911 was the single most beneficial occurance for Bush in his entire Presidency, and I’d say it is not even close to being over the top to consider this a viable possibility.
We know he has no problem with killing people enmasse. He’s proven that.
We also know when he was informed that the country was under attack, that he reacted almost like he was expecting it.
We know they buried good intelligence and ignored warnings.
I thnk its a question that bears asking, and answering.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:20 pmUm, I know I’m an intellectually dishonest fool and all, but Bin Laden would be an appropriate answer to your questions, too. He GAINED many more followers (they’re like Doritos: crunch all you want, they’ll make more). He could’ve prevented it by not giving the order or funding the operation. His motive? Judith Miller just reported she was told Bin Laden was trying to draw the U.S. into war. But I guess that’s my foolish intellectual dishonesty talking…er, writing.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:24 pmChase, quit sucking up to the neocons who are dominating this country and destroying personal freedoms. Had Ken Lay learned more from Warren Buffett
July 5th, 2006 at 4:31 pmor Joan Kroc, who gave much of her estate to PBS and NPR, he wouldn’t be in the position that he is in now. He died because he thought more of himself than he did of those who helped him make Enron a success.
Ok Chase, I promise to be more open minded. Please provide a link to bin Laden claiming responsibility.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:33 pmUnless radar images can be faked, I don’t believe the moon landing could have been staged. Kooky enough?
Please note that I’ve never called you names. I wish you would extend the same courtesy to me.
as for ms miller, please read my notes at my judith miller site.
the number of followers that resulted from 9/11 is evidence of my contention not yours! each ‘follower’ is worth 100s of millions of dollars to bush. the more the merrier!! your iraq occupation is now costing over $6-8 billion a month. halliburton and the oil companies and the defense industry and the security industry are doing quite well, in case you have not noticed.
as a result of the spoils going to the bush administration, i think it is more likely that they provided the funds to the hijackers.
and, in your reply, you still do not mention why you are reluctant to on the one hand ask for ‘evidence’ and not willing to research the subject. you prefer to give w.h. talking points…
July 5th, 2006 at 4:34 pmWell Club, what else would you expect when you have a President taking office under the conditions in late 2000 and early 2001? After all, he was a minority.
As for the spying program allegedly begun in April 2001, it’s a bit early to say that’s conclusive. That information come from a petitioner filing in a lawsuit. I’ll withhold judgment until it’s investigated a bit more.
I just think it’s unreasonable to say that President Bush was complicit in 9/11. It doesn’t pass the “common sense” test.
Yes, his family had ties with the bin Laden family. After all, they were both heavily involved in the oil business. But just because you did business from time to time with someone with the bin Laden surname doesn’t mean you consorted with terrorists. Osama bin Laden was long estranged from the rest of his family.
As for the Carlyle Group, they are an investment firm, plain and simple. I don’t quite understand why being on the board of an investment firm would implicate you in the deadliest terrorist attacks in American history but apparently it does. In fact, using this logic, George Soros would be equally implicated.
Finally, it’s not fair to say “because they benefited, they are to blame”. Think about how many children each year benefit financially by the passing of their parents. Does this mean they are likely responsible for their deaths? Hardly. At any rate, I would disagree with the idea that President Bush “benefited” from 9/11. I would rather say he “responded” to the event. If you believe he was inclined, prior to 9/11, to push the unitary executive agenda, you would be incorrect. In fact, he time and time again rejected the neoconservative policy proposals presented to him (this I know from my summer at the PNAC).
July 5th, 2006 at 4:37 pmIt goes deeper than that Chase.
I would also include motive.
Cheney and Rumsfeld have long been suckling off the Industrial Military Complex, and the right wing has long since sought a “mandate” as it were, to move America towards a more militaristic republic, and exalt the role of the Executive to monarchal proportions.
Nothing could have helped their cause more than 911.
That at least bears investigation.
But as for me? I go with my gut, kinda like the repubs.
And when I look at the video tape of Bush being informed the United States was under attack, I saw no surprise, no alarm, no urgency and no perceivable concern.
What I did see was an acknowledgement, like a perpetual awareness, that seemed to indicate he at least had been expecting this event to occur.
I think history will bear this out.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:47 pmBut I do accept your concept that the outcome does not necessarily determine the cause.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:51 pmI can’t believe I’m actually justifying myself. Oh yeah, I don’t want to work.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:52 pmSo, I don’t know that I’ve ever stated I’m unwillnig to research. I’ve just never had the compunction. When 95% of everything you hear about a subject is exactly the same, the natural inclination for most people isn’t “there must be a cover up!” And I’m not arguing against your argument, except your argument that Bush is the ONLY answer to your questions. You can argue further that your answer is more believable, fine. Great. Good for you. But to immediately dismiss any other answers (before even given) as “intellectually dishonest” is itself such.
And I don’t remember getting a receipt for *my* Iraq war.
And if you want to discount my promise to check out the site Lily proffered earlier, fine. At this point, I don’t care. I’ve never refused to watch whatever film you say I have, I never heard of it until today. Please do not speak of things you know nothing about. Like me. You come across as arrogant and ignorant. When you assume you make an ass out of yourself (not me).
Chase, in murder investigations, children who benefit from their parents’ deaths are investigated. It’s an excellent motive.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:56 pmAnd if thats all the data I had to go on then I would be inclined to lean more towards your position.
But since then, events have occured that support the my theory.
One example would be the predisposition of Osama Bin Laden to publish video tapes at pivotal moments whenever Bush is in trouble. Thats just one, but its a glaring one.
At this point, Bush’s credibility as his own character witness is shot. So I think its naive to pull the wool over our eyes just yet, until this things been looked at much more closely.
July 5th, 2006 at 4:59 pmreally? i thought when you said:
Lily – Yeah, they’re probably the same videos so I won’t waste my time looking for the links. Question for you: how about the moonlanding? Staged?
you meant it. my mistake.
You can argue further that your answer is more believable, fine. Great. Good for you. But to immediately dismiss any other answers (before even given) as “intellectually dishonest†is itself such.
i would say it is more than ‘fine’ it is ‘conclusory’ absent a better argument. your rebuttal tactics of conflating 9/11 with the moon landing and your passing along of w.h. talking points, instead of addressing an argument with a better one IS intellectually dishonest. it is not an argument it is merely an attack and an appeal to emotion.
come back when you can form a valid counter-argument.
July 5th, 2006 at 5:02 pmJimmy. Buddy. Go back. Scroll on back and find who ACTUALLY said those things. Go on. I’ll wait. Remember, Jimmy: “arrogant and ignorant.”
July 5th, 2006 at 5:05 pmwell, chase was talking to lily, lily was talking to chase, and i was talking to chase, and i assumed that since i was talking to chase that chase answered me…did you answer FOR him in #282.
that makes me ‘arrogant and ignorant’…i see. my apologies.
July 5th, 2006 at 5:11 pmGood riddence to Kenny boy. Bush/Cheney please follow his example.
July 5th, 2006 at 5:18 pmWilco, now you’re making an assumption.
Up until 7 or 8 months ago, I accepted the official version. Unquestioningly! It wasn’t until I started asking questions, and seeking answers that my views changed.
July 5th, 2006 at 5:19 pmYou were arguing against my suggested answer to your argument. (and just becuase your theory is more acceptable to you doesn’t make it “conclusory”)
July 5th, 2006 at 5:22 pmSo I was answerring your rebuttal. And your last post quoted me as well, I then assumed (making an ass of myself?) since there was no assigned person you were answering that you were answering me in both, even though I did not state anything about the moon landing. So I apologize if I am arrogant and ignorant.
Touche to me. I am now confused. I disagree with you Jimmy. But way to stick to your guns. Way to buck the system. I’m done pretending to work so I’m going to go home and pretend not to.
The Reichstag Fire
The 1933 Reichstag Fire was a key event in Adolf Hitler’s ascendency to power. During the night of February 27th, the Reichstag Building, which housed the German Parliament, was gutted by a massive fire. Adolf Hitler, who had become President Paul von Hindenburg’s chancellor less than a month earlier, pressured von Hindenburg to give him essentially dictatorial powers. Hitler used the attack to roll back the legal guarantees of personal liberty enshrined in the constitution.
Marinus van der Lubbe, a Dutch Communist who had been protesting against Hitler’s new government, was picked up on the night of the fire and charged, along with four other Communists, with setting the fires. Van der Lubbe was executed on January 10th, 1934, while the other defendants were acquitted.
Most historians think that Hitler had the fire set, while finding a scapegoat in the impoverished Dutchman, van der Lubbe.
Do you think it’s possible Hitler could have done this, or is it a wild conspiracy theory?
July 5th, 2006 at 5:22 pm#31
I think the line is “There may come a day I will dance on your grave; i unable to dance I will crawl across it.” 8-)
July 5th, 2006 at 5:26 pmi see…wilco.
anyway, i was using ‘conclusory’ in the legal sense: Convincing, but not so much so that contradiction is impossible; not justified or supported by all the facts.
i am admitting that a better argument may exist, but, until i hear one, i shall be ‘convinced’ with mine and those who have researched the subject much more extensively than you or i, e.g., the ‘loose change’ people.
bye.
July 5th, 2006 at 5:27 pmOops, I meant #33.
July 5th, 2006 at 5:28 pmThere are other options than just accepting “The Official Version on 9/11″ or believing in the “Inside Job Theory”… Just saying…
As someone with a background in commercial architecture, I know that the buildings were capable of being knocked down by the plane crashes… including Building 7 that probably succumbed to seismic forces (like an earthquake).Without that piece of the puzzle, the Inside Job Theory has a huge hole in it.
This doesn’t mean that Bush isn’t partly guilty for the events of that day. He had the information that Osama was determined to attack within U.S., and he went on vacation. He’s an accomplice for his failure to act.
July 5th, 2006 at 5:30 pmUnb.
I was not advocating an inside job theory.
I beleive I used the words, “looked the other way”.
July 5th, 2006 at 5:34 pmLarry Silverstein, the controller of the destroyed WTC complex, stated plainly in a PBS documentary that he and the FDNY decided jointly to demolish the Solomon Bros. building, or WTC 7, late in the afternoon of Tuesday, Sept. 11, 2001
http://www.whatreallyhappened.com/cutter.html
July 5th, 2006 at 5:45 pmi guess they all left us, lily…
July 5th, 2006 at 5:57 pmWORFEUS > I would have liked Ken Lay to have lived to spill the beans on his connections to the Bush family and Dick Cheney, so his death sounds very suspicious to me! At his sentencing he could have cut a deal by agreeing to tell everything he knows in exchange for a lighter sentence, like Duke Cunningham did, so his death prevents the truth from being revealed that Bush/Cheney were up to their necks in the ENRON scandal!
I respect your posts, so I was just remarking that Ken Lay being a convicted criminal does NOT garner him respect in life or in his death!
July 5th, 2006 at 6:19 pmClub – I don’t know. When I see the video of President Bush being told of the second plane hitting the WTC, I see someone frozen. I assume it would be hard to not be.
I, for one, think he did the right thing in the immediate aftermath. If he had jumped up, and sprinted out of the room, the panic level would have ratcheted up considerably. He kept calm and collected, and under the circumstances, at that early stage, what would have been a better thing to do?
It’s easy to go back and criticize any action in hindsight.
July 5th, 2006 at 6:40 pmAnn, am I yours now?
July 5th, 2006 at 6:40 pmlily, you don’t want any of this…have you seen what i have done to michelle malkin’s face? you seem to nice to be here on the ‘dark side’ with me and my other blood-sucking trolls…
July 5th, 2006 at 6:47 pmSorry, I….I just lost myself for a moment.
July 5th, 2006 at 7:06 pmhmmm, james woolsey, former cia, is in aspen colorado today….. i am sure it has no connection.
July 5th, 2006 at 7:34 pmhmmm… what is it they say about aspens?
all roots connected?
who is the writer/blogger woolsey? any relation?
July 5th, 2006 at 8:34 pmJay.
I agree with you the circumstances are suspicious.
Here he is awaiting sentencing. If he had something on Bush, then nows when he’d be trying to make a deal.
So there could be motive. Its worth looking into.
CHASE
What else should he have done?
Are you freaking kidding me?
Hes the President of the United States for crying out loud! Hes the COMMANDER IN CHIEF.
If a commander finds out his troops are under attack, he gets up and gets to the COMMAND CENTER, and starts COMMANDING.
He doesn’t sit in a chair, reading a stupid kids book for a stupid photo opp.
And as for what you saw in his eyes? Go back and watch the video again.
He’s just been notified that an airplane has slammed into one of the Twin Towers, and now, a few minutes later, he is told HIS country is under attack.
He acknowledges as if he was expecting it.
Anyone who cared about his country, would stand up, say excuse me, I have some Presidential stuff to go do, and left quietly. His aides could reschedule the opp and that would be it.
And don’t give me that CRAP, about he didn’t want to “upset the kids”.
What kind of kids are these who are traumatized for life because an important person quietly excuses himself from a room?
And just how traumatized do you think they were when the saw what was going on while the President of the United States sat reading a kiddy book with them?
No. Theres NO excuse for his failure to react appropriately at that moment. None.
July 5th, 2006 at 8:38 pmAnd to add to the suspicion that Bush “looked the other way” on 911, and was somehow connected to Osama Bin Laden, is the recent revelation that Bin Laden has now been handed to what effectively equates to a Federal Pardon, by disbanding the CIA task force appointed to find him.
Why in GODS name would we do this, unless theres somethng to this story?
JAY. P.S
That fine and thats your call, but I hope you don’t call yourself a Christian. Because Lay was a theif, nothing more. Maybe on a grand scale, but a theif nonetheless. Even Christ felt compassion towards the death of a thief.
I am not giving Lay respect. I am just respecting the death of another human being.
July 5th, 2006 at 8:53 pmwoolsey is a former cia director, katy… he was on cnn earlier today talking about killing koreans, and it said ‘aspen colorado’ under his name…
July 5th, 2006 at 8:55 pmOne more thing for Jay.
I am not judging you btw Jay. I just disagree with bashing someone whose just died, on the day he died. Hes got kids somewhere crying. A wife somewhere crying. And I think we have a responsiblity to rise above our anger or hatred, and show compassion when someone dies.
Not that I think you were being overly disrespectful or anything. In fact I understand your point. But many comments in here were over the top, and unnecessarily cruel, when they don’t need to be. Most of my comments were directed towards those. I always respect your comments Jay. You one of the few who really knows what hes talking about.
July 5th, 2006 at 9:05 pmi’m not disputing your info, james…
i was referring to a libby quote about the aspens (judy miller)
and i was confusing the name woolsey with this:
http://jameswolcott.com/
“James Wolcott is a VANITY FAIR contributing editor”
ok… all’s well…
July 5th, 2006 at 9:08 pmkaty,
if you are listening to mike malloy on the radio is talking about the lay killing.
July 5th, 2006 at 10:41 pmOne thing for sure, they didn’t waste any time in performing an autopsy. If the cause of death was a massive coronary, why was an autopsy needed? Who asked for it? And there is also going to be a Toxicology screening. Just run of the mill procedure? Ken Lay ruined alot of lives, during his own. He was made to answer for it, and there is some small comfort in that. And now Fate has stepped in and rendered his final judgment, no chance of him weaseling his way out of it now. But his family has my condolences. Losing a loved one is so hard, this family has the world watching them too. Can’t be easy for them.
July 5th, 2006 at 11:39 pmWORFEUS > I basically agree with you on Ken Lay, but I was born and raised in California, so many of my relatives and friends were harmed by the ENRON scandal! He is dead now, but he could have done one decent thing before he died: to have spilled the beans on Pres. Bush and Cheney! His death is just way to convenient and coinciding with Bush’s birthday is really weird! Makes me think that Mafia Don Poppy Bush Senior asked Bush Baby what he wanted for his birthday and he told his dad to ice Ken Lay for him!
If Ken Lay was murdered then his soul will never rest until the killer is exposed!
July 6th, 2006 at 2:10 am#315; Kenny boy would not have speilled the Beans on Bush & Cheney. He would be expecting a presidential pardon from his benefactor.
July 6th, 2006 at 6:59 am#315; Kenny boy would not have spilled the Beans on Bush & Cheney. He would be expecting a presidential pardon from his benefactor.
July 6th, 2006 at 6:59 amFrom the article…
NOVA: The Twin Towers collapsed essentially straight down. Was there any chance they could have tipped over?
Eagar: It’s really not possible in this case. In our normal experience, we deal with small things, say, a glass of water, that might tip over, and we don’t realize how far something has to tip proportional to its base. The base of the World Trade Center was 208 feet on a side, and that means it would have had to have tipped at least 100 feet to one side in order to move its center of gravity from the center of the building out beyond its base. That would have been a tremendous amount of bending. In a building that is mostly air, as the World Trade Center was, there would have been buckling columns, and it would have come straight down before it ever tipped over.
Have you ever seen the demolition of buildings? They blow them up, and they implode. Well, I once asked demolition experts, “How do you get it to implode and not fall outward?” They said, “Oh, it’s really how you time and place the explosives.” I always accepted that answer, until the World Trade Center, when I thought about it myself. And that’s not the correct answer. The correct answer is, there’s no other way for them to go but down. They’re too big. With anything that massive — each of the World Trade Center towers weighed half a million tons — there’s nothing that can exert a big enough force to push it sideways.
July 6th, 2006 at 9:05 amClub said:
I don’t think I’d go that far. I mean on the surface it seems odd, but it appears they are reorganizing the department. I hardly think they are saying “nevermind, we aren’t looking for OBL anymore.” Even you should understand that…
And Cyra – The autopsy was automatic.
July 6th, 2006 at 9:16 am“I think — tide turning — see, as I remember — I was raised in the desert, but tides kind of — it’s easy to see a tide turn — did I say those words?”
—George W. Bush, asked if the tide was turning in Iraq, Washington, D.C., June 14, 2006
July 6th, 2006 at 9:34 am“That’s George Washington, the first president, of course. The interesting thing about him is that I read three — three or four books about him last year. Isn’t that interesting?”
—George W. Bush, while showing German newspaper reporter Kai Diekmann the Oval Office, Washington, D.C., May 5, 2006
July 6th, 2006 at 9:35 amI can look you in the eye and tell you I feel I’ve tried to solve the problem diplomatically to the max, and would have committed troops both in Afghanistan and Iraq knowing what I know today.”
—George W. Bush, Irvine, Calif., April 24, 2006
July 6th, 2006 at 9:37 am#279 you don’t think Bush benefited from 911? Are you blindly nuts or do you honestly believe that? When was the last time he gave a political speech without using a reference to 911? He was in the tank and falling when 911 occurred. 911 gave him breathing room when the country and the world rallied behind him and the US. 911 gave him the opportunity to use the shaken state of the American people to back the PNAC’s war of world domination, yes, that’s what they want, it’s in their writing. And if you don’t think it’s what he wanted all along, you may not have been paying close attention to his 2000 campaign. Personally I predicted that we would invade Iraq before the end of 2001, so I was wrong there. At the time it just seemed as obvious to me as the sun rising in the east and setting in the west (please no smart assed Earth rotates comments), especially given the make up of the people surrounding him. But I digress, Bush has done nothing but benefit from 911 since the end of that week when he finally went to New York, to think otherwise is denying reality.
As to the PNAC I can easily see how the conspiracists put together their conspiracies. When a group like the PNAC says what their goal is (US World Domination) and that they need things to happen to achieve that goal (another Pearly Harbor (911), A decisive victory as a show of force (Iraq), A permanent presence in the mid east (Iraq) ) etc… and when they get numerous members into key positions in government (Rummy, Wolfy, Pearle, etc…) and then al of these things seem to happen in the order they need them to happen, it is very easy to see where the conspiracies come into play. Add into that the financial gain for many involved. Halliburton, Carlysle, other defense stocks, republican fundraising is through the roof etc…
July 6th, 2006 at 9:39 am“I like my buddies from west Texas. I liked them when I was young, I liked them then I was middle-age, I liked them before I was president, and I like them during president, and I like them after president.”
—George W. Bush, Nashville, Tenn., Feb. 1, 2006
The man speaks like he’s retarded. You really think he’s competent to find Osama? Gullible and denial have both reached new lows.
July 6th, 2006 at 9:39 am“He was a state sponsor of terror. In other words, the government had declared, you are a state sponsor of terror.”
—George W. Bush, on Saddam Hussein, Manhattan, Kan., Jan. 23, 2006
July 6th, 2006 at 9:41 am“As you can possibly see, I have an injury myself — not here at the hospital, but in combat with a cedar. I eventually won. The cedar gave me a little scratch. As a matter of fact, the Colonel asked if I needed first aid when she first saw me. I was able to avoid any major surgical operations here, but thanks for your compassion, Colonel.”
—George W. Bush, after visiting with wounded veterans from the Amputee Care Center of Brooke Army Medical Center, San Antonio, Texas, Jan. 1, 2006
July 6th, 2006 at 9:42 am“Wow! Brazil is big.”
—George W. Bush, after being shown a map of Brazil by Brazilian president Luiz Inacio Lula da Silva, Brasilia, Brazil, Nov. 6, 2005
July 6th, 2006 at 9:43 am“You see, not only did the attacks help accelerate a recession, the attacks reminded us that we are at war.”
—George W. Bush, on the Sept. 11 attacks, Washington, D.C., June 8, 2005
July 6th, 2006 at 9:45 am“Because he’s hiding.”
—George W. Bush, responding to a reporter who asked why Osama bin Laden had not been caught, aboard Air Force One, Jan. 14, 2005
July 6th, 2006 at 9:48 am“Who could have possibly envisioned an erection — an election in Iraq at this point in history?”
—George W. Bush, at the white House, Washington, D.C., Jan. 10, 2005
July 6th, 2006 at 9:49 amHE WAS A “MAN WHO KNEW TOO MUCH”, SO THE PEOPLE WHO RUN THIS COUNTRY HAD TO KILL HIM. PLAIN AND SIMPLE.
July 6th, 2006 at 2:29 pmKenneth Lay is not dead. I believe that, with the help of Dubya, he has been taken away to have his face reconstructed and live happily ever after with his stolen millions. It is also very convenient that he died now. That keeps his name tied to Bush out of the media spotlight during the 2006 elections. That would be, afterall, bad press for the Republicans to have Bush linked to Lay come November.
July 10th, 2006 at 6:52 pmHE IS NOT DEAD, HE IS CHILLIN WITH A DRINK IN HIS HAND LAUGHIN AT ALL YALL…..HE IS IN SOUTH AMERICA, REMEMBER I SAID IT….
July 13th, 2006 at 6:57 pm