Murtha is Right: Reagan’s Redeployment Made America Stronger
Murtha is Right: Reagan’s Redeployment Made America Stronger
Rep. John Murtha (D-PA) has argued recently that in Iraq, President Bush should follow the lead of President Reagan in Lebanon, who redeployed U.S. forces. Last week, Cheney responded:
If we follow Congressman Murtha’s advice and withdraw from Iraq the same way we withdrew from Beirut in 1983…we will simply validate the al Qaeda strategy and guarantee more terrorist attacks in the future.
The departure of U.S. troops did not stabilize the situation in Lebanon: the civil war raged on, Syria’s influence grew, and U.S. prestige throughout the world, especially in the Islamic world, was tarnished. But Reagan’s decision saved the United States from becoming further entangled in a raging civil-regional war and was essential to winning the broader Cold War.
As Reagan’s Asst. Defense Secretary Lawrence Korb and I have argued, the real lesson of Lebanon is that our country must be willing to change course when an operation does not advance our strategic interests.
While the Soviet Union was sinking deeper into a quagmire of its own in Afghanistan, Reagan recognized that the United States had overreached in its effort to “solve†a civil-regional war with military force. The Bush administration faces a similar choice today — whether to further drain our resources in a civil-regional war in Iraq or redeploy our assets to defeat global terrorist networks.
Much as Reagan redeployed U.S. troops to better fight the Cold War, so must we redeploy today to better fight the war on terror. Cheney’s approach — sapping U.S. resources, further taxing the U.S. military, and immersing the United States in an escalating civil war — endangers the entire effort.
– Max Bergmann
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Geez. I was hoping I never saw that face again…
Goper’s Lament (Hard To Be A Republican)
July 7th, 2006 at 4:41 pmThere will never be an end to this occupation while Bush is President because this is all Bush has left, rallying-wise. Without Iraq, he’s got no way to whip up on Democrats. And since the Party trumps the country every time, we’ll be there as long as it makes Bush look strong.
July 7th, 2006 at 4:45 pmSee, all this presupposes that these guys care about objective reality. They don’t. They have communicated explicitly and by their actions that they believe that they are history’s actors; and while we try to analyze and understand what they have done, they are off doing something else that ignores objective reality. They do not have to heed any lessons from history, as they are irrelevant because those lessons are a form of objective reality.
We’re doomed.
July 7th, 2006 at 4:45 pmSo you guys are saying that you want us to attack Pakistan, Syria, and Iran? I assume so since you want us to “redeploy” to “fight the war on terrorism”. Iran, Pakistan, and Syria are hot beds for those types. I guess I am with you on that. I thought we should have invaded those countries a long time ago!
July 7th, 2006 at 4:49 pmFor me it is real simple. Are they engineers making real plans for a long term success … or are they dilbert (decider) boss types making decisions with no rhyme or reason. Considering PNAC was wanting the Iraq war before 911 it is hard to see how they have some master plan… stay the coarse is not a plan… attacking the American left is not a plan… if they got one they sure are not trying to sell it to America. They try selling the WORD democracy which would be great if they were not so obviously just trying to cover up their actions by using words like democracy, liberty, freedom. You dont bomb people into freedom. IF they had went in took out Saddam and sons and left … then helped the UN go in and set up a stable government … or pulled out till after the civil war was over and then helped the winners … well that would be believable … they just seem like an incompetent dilbert (decider) boss type to me.
July 7th, 2006 at 4:52 pmAmerica wants to leave Iraq
America will leave iraq
America cant leave Iraq
and that’s the equation that turns sand into blood
July 7th, 2006 at 4:55 pmNothing but pure and simple jokers running things these days, but they are in no way funny.
July 7th, 2006 at 4:56 pmIraq’s Oil Timeline
For the war in Iraq to finally come to an end, the “oil timeline†must be addressed, challenged, and eliminated.
July 7th, 2006 at 4:57 pmDoodle Bug yeppers its the Oil TimeLine that has to be address by all .
On a different note as a fan of the Tour de France I have yet to see one American Flag .I wonder why…and its not because we don’t have any American cyclists Racing…
July 7th, 2006 at 5:01 pmThe withdrawal of U.S. forces is key to any peace plan, and is supported by the majority of Iraqis. A poll taken by World Public Opinion earlier this year showed 87% of the general population favoring a set timeline for U.S. withdrawal. Among Sunnis, who this peace plan is meant to attract, it is a whooping 94%. In fact, the call for a timeline has been echoed by high level officials inside the Iraqi government itself. When President Bush made his 6-hour trip to Iraq on June 13, Vice-President Tariq al-Hashimi asked Bush for a timeline for the withdrawal of foreign forces from Iraq. The following day, President Jalal Talabani released a statement expressing his support for the vice-president’s request. Then on Tuesday, June 20, Mowaffak al-Rubaie, Iraq’s national security advisor, wrote an op-ed the Washington Post saying that Iraqis now see foreign troops as occupiers rather than the liberators, and that their removal would strengthen the fledgling government.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:02 pmWhat’s with this mythology that the US won the Cold War? First of all, the Cold War is hardly over. China, anyone? Anticommunism is alive and well (check Malkin’s recent posts) and the focus has just shifted from the USSR to North Korea.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:04 pmGary,
The so called war on terror cannot be won by attacking countries. Al Qaeda doesn’t represent a country nor are they a country.
We must fight the war on terror a different way.
First, you get the countries to agree to let us conduct the war. If they don’t you use diplomacy to do it.
Then you use our best soldiers. Not the newbies that are fresh out of boot camp. Use the Special Forces, Rangers, SEALs, Delta Force, etc. to go in and take out the terrorists after the CIA has done their job of finding them.
You go in in the middle of the night and take the bastards out.
Attacking and occupying countries to fight the war on terror will not accomplish anything other than creating more people that hate us, which leads to more terrorists.
If some country decided to attack the US and they killed my father, I would do everything in my power to do great harm to that country. That is how “terrorists” are made. By pissing off people in the name of helping them.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:06 pmNow that the Cold War is over, we can concentrate on the War on Terror which arises from Islamic nations. The more we create free democracies in the middle east, the more we eliminate the seeds for terrorism, as Friedman describes in one of his documentaries – when young muslims have a democratic means of addressing their grievances, it is far less likely that they will use terrorism.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:07 pmSo-What is the Democratic position on the Iraq war?
July 7th, 2006 at 5:15 pmLONDON BOMBERS WORDS
“What you have witnessed now is only the beginning of a series of attacks that will continue and increase in strength until you withdraw your soldiers from Afghanistan and Iraq, and until you (the British government) stop your financial and military support for America and Israel,” he said in English.
We now have 52 people in the Uk that understand WHY
We now have 52 people in the UK that dont like UK or American foreign policy
so terrorism does work then eh
Everyone of us can become a terrorist
July 7th, 2006 at 5:16 pm” you harm my kids and I will personally torture and murder you”
Jason M. Hendler,
You’re an idiot. Don’t bring that feel good garbage in here.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:18 pmAt what point will we be willing to call Dubya’s war a clusterf*ck that it is and will always be?
July 7th, 2006 at 5:18 pmthis is how you end the war on terror:
July 7th, 2006 at 5:38 pm
So-What is the Democratic position on the Iraq war?
Comment by Democratic Leadership Council
We dont need A position … we are not lemmings … we need a well thought out plan of action. I wonder if the democrats dont say what should be done about 911 because they dont know and refuse to think about it or they do know but cant show their hand to win the elections because if they won the election then they will have just told the enemy what they were going to do … catch 22 or are the democrats just as stupid as the republicans?
July 7th, 2006 at 5:39 pmthis is how you end the war on terror:
1) end the occupations of afghanistan, iraq, and israel
2) apologize to the islamic world for our actions
3) pay restitution
4) charge the senior members of the bush administration with war crimes
Comment by james risser
And what about the people that have already swarn their lives to fight and the religious kooks that have already put their name on the line by declaring America the great satan? They cant exactly say they were wrong and the great satan is now a good guy?
July 7th, 2006 at 5:41 pmSpreadin’ dermokracy, eh?
July 7th, 2006 at 5:42 pmTHe bottom line is we have to get out of Iraq. Bush, Rove and the BA are just utilizing a new batch of fear-mongering to trash the Dems and Murtha. Let’s see the light, W
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog
Do Republican voters favor cut and run?
NYC “terror plot”
Lieberman vs. Lamont
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog
All of this, only on SSA Blog
July 7th, 2006 at 5:44 pmThe ‘war on terror’ is a terrorist war on innocent civilians in violation of all treaties and most of our laws.
And you want them to ‘redeploy the troops’?
What about installing airbases by genocide escapes your view?
We need to REDEPLOY BUSH’S NECK, after a trial on his crimes.
And until we redeploy our justice system and redeploy our Constitution, the U.S. military will not be abandoning the airbases they KILLED 250,000 FORMER-IRAQIS TO INSTALL.
JUSTICE for CAPITAL WARCRIMES, not lies about redeployment.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:47 pmamerica has earned their hatred, gg. america remains the ‘great satan’ as long as they pre-emptively invade, occupy and perpetuate war-crimes in the world. they remain the great satan when they allow israel to kill palestinian civilians with american supplied weapons and bombs.
the great satan can decide to change its way, or, continue onward following bush into hell… admitedly, there would be less money for the crime family to divvy up, and, gas might be 1.50 a gallon, and the world wouldn’t hate us as much…and i know that the crime family runs on fear, hatred, and blood, so NOT being the great satan would take money out of their pockets.
one option, the best one i have thought of, is to follow my four-step plan.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:47 pmThe FBI leaked the story of the Lebanese terrorists who planned to flood the Holland Tunnel. Intel experts are upset because now the work they were studying has been compromised.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:50 pmWas the FBI eager to have a positive story because of the previous day’s news of a hacker compromising their computer security system?
I can hardly wait for the helicopters evacuate all US personnel off the embassy roof like in Saigon. It will be a great and glorious day for world peace. We need another ‘Vietnam syndrome’ to curb further adventurism by POTUS.
July 7th, 2006 at 5:54 pm#25
marie, i think that that attack was *supposed* to be the october surprise and someone at the fbi didn’t follow the bush crime family’s orders on this one…he or she will end up dead, i’m sure…
July 7th, 2006 at 6:13 pmgood post on the nation site today:
Military in Shambles
July 7th, 2006 at 6:30 pm
I can’t believe I actually miss Reagan.
July 7th, 2006 at 6:31 pmIt seems to me that VP Cheney’s comments were a threat, not a prediction.
I read the comments to mean, “If you, my fellow Americans, force me pull out of Iraq, then I will assist in more September 11th style attacks on the USA and our friends.”
July 7th, 2006 at 6:37 pmBut if we redeploy that would throw off the whole experiment. The reason we won’t redeploy is because we are still testing out Transformation. Do you really think it was stupidity that led us to disband the Iaqi army then let them keep their weapons and then let them steal more? Was it stupidity that made us inflame the whole population against us? No, we needed a guerilla enemy to fight so we could test another phase of Transformation. Shock and awe was the first test, which was expected to go “well” and it did. The second phase was much more experimental and that involved Transformation of urban and guerilla warfare tactics. We knew we could take out everything under the sun using GPS and guided missiles, but could we take out one guy with a grenade launcher under a bridge using a satellite and a drone aircraft? That’s why we won’t redeploy. We’re still in the middle of the experiment.
July 7th, 2006 at 6:49 pmThere has been problems with inner city gangs as well. They have found gang markings in baghdad as well. the crips and bloods type.
It’s not just neo-nazi’s signing up.
July 7th, 2006 at 6:49 pm#16, DLC,
Again, a typical liberal knee-jerk reaction to a substantive statement which was backed up with references …
Terrorism, as with any anarchistic behaviour, is the result of oppression with no means of addressing grievances which are acceptable to the oppressed. One of the main tenents of a democracy is a citizen’s ability to address grievances either through courts, elections or lobbying elected officials for help. Saudi Arabia is a monarchy (of sorts), and oppresses its people, and hence produced Osama and many other terrorists. On the other hand Turkiye is a democracy, and although they do have some problems with Kurds in the east, have actually elected a Kurdish president in the past, so terrorism is not a major result.
July 7th, 2006 at 7:02 pm#33 you must be like 17 right?
July 7th, 2006 at 7:17 pmAre we going to “spread democracy” with a butterknife or guided missles?
Yeah, that’ll stop terrorism.
“the War on Terror which arises from Islamic nations.”
An illegal invasion of an innocent, disarmed country is RACIST.
In the last fifteen years, there have been SIX major terrorist threats a year from RIGHTWING WHITE SUPREMACIST HATEGROUPS. Compared to TWO from Arab or Islamic nations.
“The more we create free democracies in the middle east,”
More? Name ONE.
“the more we eliminate the seeds for terrorism,” –Jason M. Hendler
Racist acts like the invasion of Iraq create the seeds of terrorism, as many studies and the U.S. Army War College attest. The fascist invasion of Iraq:
• Released 380 TONS of high-explosives to hostiles.
• Released highly radioactive Cesium and Strontium from the UNGUARDED Tuwaitha and eight other nuke sites previously under UN lockdown.
• Put a few pounds of those 380 tons of high-explosives together with a cannister of Cesium, in the back of a pickup truck, and drive it up a hill upwind from Tel Aviv. And have a nice day, Jason
If you planned on making Friedman Democracies, you ought not to have hired a negligent racist to run your invasions. Writing no orders to guard 650,000 pounds of ammunition, or the 450 shoulder-fired missiles the U.S. military has allowed to go missing, and underdeploying troops by eighty percent of what is known to be needed to actually secure a country of the size of Iraq, Bushco has created the seeds for a race war like the world hasn’t seen for fifty years.
And you, cheerleading in your ignorance or racism, have abetted what is already a GIGANTIC set of warcrimes and the murder of something like 50,000 children. WHAT an accomplishment.
July 7th, 2006 at 7:17 pm#35, Paul,
You are all over the map, so I will do my best to collect your thoughts and address them:
Both Afghanistan and Iraq were ruled by oppressive regimes which were destablizing the middle east, and required military action to replace them with democracies. Regime change “aint beanbag”, just like our defeat and regime change in Japan and Germany, but NO ONE would argue that those nations are now peaceful and democratic and stablizing forces in their respective regions (oh, and we used nukes in Japan, but no resentful terrorists have struck the US from Japan – so much for your logic).
July 7th, 2006 at 7:27 pmWere there resistance armies in Japan and Germany after their wars? No. Then so much for YOUR logic, eh?
Apples and oranges.
July 7th, 2006 at 7:32 pmAs laudable as Murtha’s plan is, the hope is that people will not confuse his plan, which is redeployment, for withdrawal. Murtha wishes to redeploy the troops, to use his phrase, “over the horizon.” Whether the Americn troops are sent over or under, above or below, the horizon, this will not obviate the fear, justifiably, that the Iraqis will have, which is that the Americans can send those troops back into Iraq whenever they wish. The fact of the matter is that American troops do not belong in Iraq or in an adjacent region or country near Iraq. Period. It would be the same thing if the Chinese invaded this country and said that they would, eventually, redeploy their troops “over the horizon”, perhaps to Newfoundland or El Salvador. When will Americans ever learn that their role in life is not to try and continually threaten and intimidate other countries with a show of force?
July 7th, 2006 at 7:34 pm#37, Jason,
Yes, there were resistance fighters in Germany, called “wolverines”, who behaved much as the insurgents in Iraq do today, so it is the same thing, except that Americans had the will to do what it took then and in Korea, but not Vietnam and after ….
July 7th, 2006 at 7:40 pmMax Bergmann thinks cutting and running from Lebanon made the US stronger?? THAT was the beginning of the perception by the barbarian Osama that America is a weakling which can be toppled – I think Max is projecting.
I assume Max thinks Viet Nam was a tremendous victory!!
July 7th, 2006 at 7:46 pmJason M. Hendler,
You are aware that regime change is not a legal reason to go to war, right?
Don’t let your masters hear that you think we went to war for that reason. Rove will get mad.
July 7th, 2006 at 7:50 pm#37 – Jason – German insurgents were a factor albeit a smaller factor after WWII. (The US forces ademanded all guns to be turned in and anyone caught with a pistol or rifle was subject to be shot on sight.) I apologize for confusing you with facts.
July 7th, 2006 at 7:51 pm#27 james risser
July 7th, 2006 at 7:54 pmAha! A plausible theory.
Spongeeeeee – For the zillionith time -(I haven’t decided if you’re just a poor reader or your resources are woefully lacking.)- regime change IS NOT the reason we went to war. Failure to comply WITH THE 1991 CEASE FIRE AGREEMENT is a more than legitimate reason to resume hostilities. As a savant, I expect you’ll forget this nugget in 3 or 4 seconds….
July 7th, 2006 at 7:57 pmFear not, Cut-and-Runners. The Prez has already planned on re-deploying the bulk of the troops from Iraq by the end of 2007. He just hasn’t officially put it out there yet.
July 7th, 2006 at 9:03 pmWhy do two rights make a wrong for the right? #44– Isn’t the USA failing to comply with a little something by being in Iraq in the first place
July 7th, 2006 at 9:27 pmAnd that was no dyslexic mistake…
July 7th, 2006 at 9:31 pmBush is so bad that I wish Reagan was president again > lol. I lived in California when the Gipper was the Gov. and we all wished he would drop dead, but he became a marginal leader in DC > still better than Bush the worst president in US history!
July 7th, 2006 at 9:31 pmI’m sure indeed that most have you have read this.
http://www.rollingstone.com/news/story/10432334/was_the_2004_election_stolen/1
But what kills me, is…if this can take place, what isn’t the administration and their cohorts capable of pulling off? (Not that we are lacking a trough of its taste)
Would someone, more educated than I, please tell me what I CAN DO? I am sick of sitting filled with idle hands. I want to do something.
July 7th, 2006 at 9:44 pmI think the US should agree with the Iraqi Sunni proposal. They had said that the US would withdraw all it’s forces in 2 years and they would make sure the killing stopped now, and have everyone fully join and participate in the new government.
Sounds good to me. It doesn’t sound good to bushco because it throws out the 2 biggest reasons King dumbya invaded for in the first place. That is 1) the Iraqi’s would tera up the current oil contracts and sell it to the highest bidder & 2) the whole domino theory of control of the Middle East goes out the window.
July 7th, 2006 at 10:04 pm33 Jason H : “Saudi Arabia is a monarchy (of sorts), and oppresses its people, and hence produced Osama and many other terrorists”
July 7th, 2006 at 10:33 pmAnd Osama attacked Saudi Arabia, the source of his oppression…oh, wait, no he didn’t. So that means the rest of this argument is claptrap. Perception is reality and the perception of many non-Americans (and some Americans also) is that our country is oppressive and meddling in the affairs of sovereign nations. This helps produce terrorists and when we follow up with occupying a country like we are in Iraq it just inflames the situation. The invasion of Iraq and our continued presence is a solution that is all likelihood part of the problem. Perhaps if we redeploy tensions will lessen.
I will wait patiently….
July 7th, 2006 at 10:37 pmlike everyone else….
July 7th, 2006 at 10:38 pmNight, ladies n gents. Tomorrow is a day, though not different. God bless you as you sleep, in your homes, with bread, comfy sheets, family pictures, pets, annoying dogs barking, loved ones a phone call away, nothing is different for you. Sleep tight.
Sleep tight. Please pray, before you sleep, for those that have less….
July 7th, 2006 at 11:07 pm#51, PLC,
If we were a oppressive regime, then Japan, Germany and South Korea would have sprouted terrorists who attack us, but instead formed strong economies and stablized their respective regions. Your logic isn’t consistent with historical FACT.
July 7th, 2006 at 11:11 pm#55- JMH- It was the Marshall Plan that was responsible for the recovery of Germany and Japan after WW2 ended. We didn’t ‘occupy’ them, constantly changing the ‘plans’ for ‘victory’, fail to provide them with any of the improvements of basic services that we promised them, and continue to use their country as the battleground for the so-called “GWOT”. The only ‘plan’ BushCo has ever presented is “Stay The Course”. Doesn’t seem to include any stabilization or plans for a strong economy. Can’t do either one, with the occupation dragging on, and on and on. In Germany and Japan, the war was OVER. And that is a historical fact.
July 8th, 2006 at 12:40 amL. Korb has flip-flopped hasn’t he? He once thought it was appropriate to go into countries, remove dictators who were committing genocide and believed that instability in the middle east was a threat to the US. He believed that Iraq was a terrorist state and would attack the US. He wrote in June of 2003, that pre-emptive war was appropriate.
“As the Cold War taught us, deterrence is a two-way street. But given the
irrationality of today’s enemies, it may become one-way if they should get their hands on the ultimate weapon. Because Iraq not only provided haven and support for terrorists, but also demonstrated a desire to acquire weapons of mass destruction, we had to lead a coalition to change the Iraqi regime. The rest of the world should know that Americans are not alone in this struggle. The bombings in Bali on October 12, 2002, which killed some 200 people, illustrate that all freedom-loving peoples are at risk from terrorism. And I say this again to other nations around the world: You are either with us or with the enemy in this war. You must choose which side you are on. We will answer threats to our security, and we will defend the peace.
“In a perfect world, preventive action would be unnecessary. But in the admittedly
July 8th, 2006 at 1:21 amflawed world of today, it is not enough to act only in response to past aggression. Even a number of “just war†theorists understand that such a reactive strategy plays into the hands of Osama bin Laden and his sympathizers. I agree with many of our religious and moral leaders who say that war should be fought only as a last resort, but preventiveaction is plainly defensive when it is motivated by a reasonable belief that a serial aggressor, such as Saddam Hussein’s Iraq, is equipping itself with the means to carry outfurther aggression.”
Korb continues…
July 8th, 2006 at 1:24 am‘Finally, preempting our enemies and maintaining military dominance, while necessary to winning the war against terrorism, are not alone sufficient to ensure our victory. To be successful in this endeavor we must aggressively seek to extend democracy throughout the globe. The events of September 11 have shown us that it is authoritarian or totalitarian governments that spawn, promote, and harbor terrorist movements.”
There’s more…
July 8th, 2006 at 1:26 am“It is clear that if we do not spread democratic values to these Arab states, even if
doing so would mean using military force, conditions will continue to deteriorate both
absolutely and in relation to the rest of the world. We know that democratic governments will, among other things, help build more open and productive economies, empower women, and create a free press that will educate and inform citizens as well as hold the governments accountable for failed policies. Creating these conditions should reduce significantly the supply of terrorists like the ones who attacked us on September 11.”
Korb reminds us, all in the context of why removing Saddam was the right thing to do…
July 8th, 2006 at 1:29 amAs President Reagan noted in devising his visionary approach that brought down the Soviet empire, “If not now, when; if not us, who?â€
“#35, Paul, You are all over the map, so I will do my best to collect your thoughts and address them:”
TRANSLATION: You have no response to the NEGLIGENCE and WARCRIMES. I didn’t think you did.
Oh yeah, and I forgot to mention that the U.S. Army War College says that 1/4 of our troops have died as a DIRECT RESULT OF LACK OF ARMOR. How do you account for a 25% attrition rate as a DIRECT RESULT of Ronald Dumbsfeld’s failure to order sufficient armor?
“We will do it on the cheap.” — Ronald Dumbsfeld.
Doing it Donald’s way has KILLED MORE THAN 800 SOLDIERS, who were not issued sufficient armor, personal or vehicle.
“Both Afghanistan and Iraq were ruled by oppressive regimes which were destablizing the middle east,”
These geopolitical facts in no way refer to the UN Charter, which is operant, federal law — THE HIGHEST LAW IN THE LAND.
CHAPTER 2: “All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.
All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.”
The Hague Conventions, which the Supreme Court (you know, our highest law interpreters) just reaffirmed, makes it clear that IT IS A WARCRIME TO DESTROY CIVILIAN INFRASTRUCTURE.
Bush’s destruction of Iraqi powerplants is still not remedied, 3 years later. What is it with Bechtel that they can’t get the work done? Oh, yeah, Bush didn’t deploy sufficient troops to protect the people restoring the powerplants THAT BUSH COMMITTED A MAJOR WARCRIME BY BLOWING UP, just as ISRAEL just earned it’s latest WARCRIME.
The premier of Israel, and the Prime Minister of the UK, and the entire WHIG have committed crimes that under international law, carry the CAPITAL PUNISHMENT reserved for such crimes.
“and required military action to replace them with democracies.”
Gee, and when Bush drew this conclusion, and acted, after lying to the country across the board, he abrogated the UN Charter, the Geneva and Hague Conventions, and then went on to violate the U.S. Statute Baring Torture (as well as the UN Convention on Torture). Those are all CAPITAL CRIMES, and your excuse for them is that he drew those conclusions, he says with the help of ‘God’ — and committed those warcrimes.
“Regime change “aint beanbagâ€, just like our defeat and regime change in Japan and Germany, ”
Well, here’s a clue, clown. The UN did not exist in 1945. But it does exist NOW, and the UN Charter is US FEDERAL LAW AS SURE AS YOU ARE SITTING ON THE DUNCESTOOL FOR NOT KNOWING THAT.
“but NO ONE would argue that those nations are now peaceful and democratic and stablizing forces in their respective regions”
The U.S. illegal operation bombing Cambodia, Kissinger’s unpunished warcrime, brought about the Pol Pot genocide of several million people. That invasion and bombing was COMPLETLY ILLEGAL. By the same invention of your logic, that might makes right, Mussolini was SUMMARILY SHOT IN THE HEAD, ALONG WITH HIS WIFE. If you want to quote history.
(oh, and we used nukes in Japan, but no resentful terrorists have struck the US from Japan – so much for your logic).–Jason M. Hendler
Have you been to Japan? I have, and I have listened to plenty of Japanese who continue to this day to believe that the United States committed a genocide in dropping those bombs, as they certainly did. The United States under Truman even considered nuking Kyoto, in contention for the most beautiful city in the world. Those actions have NEVER been judged in themselves, except by people like Ronald Reagan, who despised nuclear weapons and sincerely wanted to save the people from them by disarming the world entirely of their use, via SDI, the missile shield.
But to the point, if Bush or the WHIG or anyone else who has committed this genocide right in front of us, and this lying, and a gusher of warmongering never seen in U.S. history, and stomping on our Constitution at every step, IF they come to JUSTICE FOR THESE CRIMES,
then they can tell these lame and ill-informed anecdotes from history IN THEIR DEFENSE. The crimes are real, and the evidence is on every computer of a blogger across the world.
You bootlick major warcriminals, and call it ‘history.’ But it’s EVIDENCE in our Constitutional democracy — and we want justice for those crimes. That’s the Constitutional response to abrogations of the Constitution, and it is also an international law that binds poor Tony Bliar.
When Bliar stands down, he will be indicted in the Hague, and these crimes are going to come pouring out into view, into legal view. What’s Bush going to do, then — nuke Holland?
God told him to do it is a MADMAN’S defense, but that’s about the best he’s got. Why don’t you get down on your knees and “PRAY TO” him some more..
July 8th, 2006 at 1:31 am55 Jason Hendler
July 8th, 2006 at 8:42 amThe World War II reference is not applicable – a different time period, different cultures, and different US policies. Plus, as you said in #39 there were terrorist resisters in germany, which is counter to your argument. You haven’t explained how Saudia Arabia, as the oppressive nation you described, spawned Osama Bin Laden as a terrorist against US instead of itself.
“…a similar choice today — whether to further drain our resources in a civil-regional war in Iraq or redeploy our assets to defeat global terrorist networks…”
false choice. being deployed in Iraq has nothing whatever to do with terrorism and everything to do with stealing oil. The Bushitters are willing to give the lives and body parts of hundreds of thousands of American soldiers for the oil, and so far it has been pretty cheap . . . a few thousand dead and maybe ten times that with missing or useless body parts.
As long as you keep talking about terrorism and not about oil, you miss the point of the exercise in Iraq completely. Iraq has nothing to do with terrorism and never has had a connection. Iraq is about stealing oil. The discussion ought to begin with all of us understanding what the long term result will be if we DO NOT steal oil from someone in the mideast or elsewhere.
This is the conversation neither Democrat nor Republican wants to have.
July 8th, 2006 at 11:27 amWow, I had no idea that Germany, Japan and South Korea were in the Middle East with Arabs, Persians and Kurds living there with their religions mostly Sunni and Shiite with their laws based on Shira.
Germany, Japan and South Korea are nothing like Iraq or Afghanistan. Nothing.
July 8th, 2006 at 12:20 pm#36 Jason Hendler to #35 Paul in LA : You are all over the map, so I will do my best to collect your thoughts and address them:
No Jason, Paul isn’t “all over the map”, but he is indeed “all up your bush-bootlicking ass”. Bravo Paul.
July 8th, 2006 at 3:44 pmJust for everyone who might care, the photograph of President Reagan, if I’m not mistaken is by William Coupon. I don’t know if he still retains the copyright”©” or not, maybe Time magazine does, but still, a proper credit would be appreciated and at least be Polite.
July 8th, 2006 at 5:13 pmMassive military redeployment has already begun in North Korea (DPRK). July 9, 2006 Kim Il Jong no longer in control.
July 8th, 2006 at 9:53 pmwhat do you get when you cross a prune with a turtle?
July 8th, 2006 at 9:59 pmThe lunatic left has made the argument that every war or military confrontation the US has been involved in has been about “stealing oil,” including Vietnam. Attention Moonbats! We could have had all the oil we wanted when we drove Saddam out of Kuwait. We reached a cease-fire agreement with Saddam after the Gulf War, and had been keeping troops and Naval resources on station, enforcing “no fly” zones, etc. Under Clinton, he shifted the costs of all this to the Pentagon, not the State Dept as the law prescribes. It was incredibly expensive and drained the Pentagon budget. Saddam in effect violated the terms of the cease-fire and we revoked it. This, Bush should have announced. Saddam’s Ba’athist (progeny of Nazi Fascism) government set up its own Jihadist movement (Ansr-al-Islam) in the North that the Kurds begged us to deal with. We knew at the time that Baghdad was Club Med for world terrorists, and Saddam apparently saw an alignment (as a way to project power against the US and save his sorry ass) however temporary, was the way to go. Due to Bill Blythe, er, Clinton leaving many problems hanging, Bush was left with the cleanup job. (See the first World Trade Center Bombing that the Clintonistas treated as a bank robbery by small-time thugs instead of an Islamo-fascist attack). Iraq was not a “pre-emptive war” but the final dealing with someone who was on probation and continued to violate the terms of the Gulf War cease-fire. And it is an attempt to cut the Gordian Knot of Middle East Jihadist politics by setting up a semi-democratic nation that just might influence the area in a positive way. It might work, might not.
July 15th, 2006 at 9:25 pmLike it or not, Militant Islam has declared war on us and the rest of the world. Aidid’s Somalian militia was trained by OBL and Al-Queda, we just didn’t know it. Many mosques in America openly preach sympathy with the Islamo-Faschists. Steven Emerson documented this in the early 90’s in his book, American Jihad, and has had so many death threats from Muslims that he has to live on the run. So, we are engaged in a long 4th generation war, but it seems a lot of Dems don’t believe it, the NY and LA Times don’t believe it, and the Communists are rooting for the Islamo-Fascists. Just read many of the posts on this site. So, they see the GWOT as George Bush’s War, and think they have no stake in the outcome. For this I partly blame Bush/Cheney/Rumsfeld, because they have told the American people to go on about their lives as normal and leave the battle to the government/military. They have tried to do this on the cheap, as Rumsfeld has said. This means that they haven’t tried to add divisions to the Army, among other things. Trying to make due with the shrunken military we now have. Add to that the desire of Bush and the Globalists to do away with all national borders to allow the free flow of goods/jobs/people. It irks conservatives that he has no concern for American sovereignty. Anyway, look upon Israel as the canary in the mine-the first indication of what would be in store for the rest of the non-Muslim world if we and the nations aligned with us refuse to engage the I-F’s in this war. And by the way, for the edification of the local communists, the UN charter is NOT the law of our land. It is not world law. But some wish it was.
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