White House Accuses Clinton of Sending ‘Flowers and Chocolates’ To Kim Jong-il
White House Accuses Clinton of Sending ‘Flowers and Chocolates’ To Kim Jong-il
Facing increasing criticism of their North Korea policy from the right and left, White House Press Secretary Tony Snow lashed out at the Clinton administration. Snow accused the Clinton administration of going to North Korea with “flowers and chocolates.” He said the Clinton strategy “failed” and President Bush had “learned from that mistake.” Watch it:
Let’s review the progress of North Korea’s nuclear program during the last three administrations:
1. George H. W. Bush: one to two bombs’ worth of plutonium
2. Bill Clinton: zero plutonium
3. George W. Bush: 4-6 nuclear weapons’ worth of plutonium
There are legitimate criticisms of every administration’s approach to North Korea’s nuclear program. But the Clinton administration’s strategy, objectively, has been the most successful.
Transcript:
QUESTION: When you hear from your allies on Capitol Hill and elsewhere who are in favor of the preemptive doctrine, and they are critical of the administration, they think that the administration is not doing enough in terms of North Korea and Iran, essentially continuing the Clinton administration policy in North Korea, for instance, what’s your response? What do you tell them?
SNOW: This is not the Clinton administration policy.
I understand what the Clinton administration wanted to do. They wanted to talk reason to the government of Pyongyang, and they engaged in bilateral conversations. And Bill Richardson went with flowers and chocolates, and he went with light water nuclear reactors, and he went with promises of heavy oil and a basketball signed by Michael Jordan, and many other inducements for the dear leader to try to agree not to develop nuclear weapons, and it failed.
But there was at least a good faith effort on the part of some very smart people to use that as an approach.
SNOW: We’ve learned from that mistake. One reason not to go bilateral with the North Koreans is what we’re seeing right now, which is that you need to have concerted pressure, especially from those who have very close and ongoing ties with the government of North Korea, so that you can get results.
So this is not a continuation of the Clinton program.
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These guys aren’t making an ounce of sense on NK. Could any of you remotely follow Snow’s “logic” here? I certainly couldn’t.
Their policy appears to be “we don’t have a policy”. I agree that this is not a continuation of the Clinton program.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:21 pmIts all Clinton’s fault. 9/11 was his fault. Snow getting cancer was his fault and certainly Iraq is Clinton’s fault.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:22 pmClinton will forever be this admins go to guy in the blame game. The only way to make it stop is to put Regean on the dime instead of FDR, act now!
July 10th, 2006 at 2:25 pmNewsflash for the admin:
What NK wants is: 1) to be recognized as a player on the international scene
; 2) to be able to work with the US regarding trade – they are an incredibly poor country; and 3) to be removed from the “axis of evil” label.
This isn’t much to give. Enter bilateral talks with them, ask for concessions on weapons in return for the above, and declare a victory. Stop being so goddammned pigheaded.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:26 pmSo Bush’s policy is to not do what Clinton did and then choose not to do anything else. Beauty. Our brainless leader at his best.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:26 pmJudd,
Yeah, let’s just shove the whole nuclear reactor deal under the rug. The only reason why NoKo has nukes now is because the Clinton administration let NoKo dupe them. I think this picture says just about everything. Your partisan hackery can’t rewrite the past Judd.
Flowers and chocolate? Well, I don’t know about that, but Albright certainly had nothing against a few drinks with Kim Jong Il.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:28 pmDubya and the posse clearly will turn their backs on any policy which seems to have a chance of success. This crew has the worst reverse Midas touch of any team that I have ever seen. What’s the worst is that they revel in it. The historians will have a devil of a time trying to figure out how this group managed to take power when they look at the history of the US. Hopefully, they won’t have to be writing it as myth.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:28 pm#3
July 10th, 2006 at 2:29 pmScrew Reagan. He was the first of these Republican puppet presidents. And the players from back then are the players we see today. If he was a true president he would have seen through these thug’s bulls*&t and done right for his country.
So, let me get this straight… there were zero plutonium based weapons assembled under the 2 terms of Clinton, while 5 or 6 have been assembled under George Junior’s watch, and the Bush Regime thinks that this is learning from Clinton’s mistakes? WTF?
July 10th, 2006 at 2:31 pmI sure labeling North Korea as part of the Axis of Evil really went a long way toward diplomacy.
/sarcasm = off
July 10th, 2006 at 2:34 pmHere we go again folks. When in trouble, blame the Clintons!! Bush is a big fat failure.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:36 pmBottom line: It’s better to talk tough to appease your base than be effective.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:37 pmUn-F’in Believable
Bill Clinton caused the deaths of over 3000 people on 9-11
Bill Clinton caused Global Warming
Bill Clinton caused Katrina and Rita
Bill Clinton caused me to have to wear Army Values Tags around my neck
Bill Clinton caused the GOP to not renew the Voting Rights Act
Bill Clinton caused Plamegate
Bill Clinton caused Gannon-gate
Bill Clinton caused Hookergate
Bill Clinton caused gas prices to go up
Bill Clinton caused Enron
Bill Clinton caused Tyco
Bill Clinton caused the Energy Crisis of California
Bill Clinton caused vote 2000
Bill Clinton caused Joe Lieberman (that might be true lol)
Bill Clinton caused the Iraq War
Bill Clinton caused Tony Snow’s cancer
Bill Clinton killed my Soldier
PLEEZZEEE
Un-F’in-Believable
RIP
SGT Stephen R Sherman
C CO 1-5 Inf (SBCT)
KIA 03 Feb 05
Mosul, Iraq
Or as Tony snow and the rest of the Repuppetcan’s would say
#1462
July 10th, 2006 at 2:38 pmSo, how long does a party have to be in charge before they accept any responsibility?
July 10th, 2006 at 2:38 pmCAPTION CONTEST ENTRY:
“Brains… brains… BRAAAAINS!!!!”
July 10th, 2006 at 2:38 pmThey wanted to talk reason to the government of Pyongyang, and they engaged in bilateral conversations.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:39 pmJesus…those democrat animals wanted to actually do DIPLOMACY?????
This w.h. has really gone apeshyt! here in TN we have one gopher stating he is running against both Bill and Hilary for the Senate . Are these fools confuse or what?
Can’t they ever get over their addictions long enough to do an effective 12 step program and accept their own misteps and lies of deceptions to control other countries for big oil and big corps?
N.K. should’ve been the 1st country to keep track of not Iraq which had nothing going for it but OIL.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:39 pmWhen will the “party of responsibility” take some responsibility?
I am betting on never.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:40 pmBill Clinton also had nothing to do with a balanced budget, but his policies somehow caused the largest deficit in the history of world government after he left office.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:41 pmSeixon,
your partisan hackery can’t rewrite the present. LOL
July 10th, 2006 at 2:42 pmCAPTION CONTEST:
July 10th, 2006 at 2:42 pmI wish I had never took that job at QUANTUM LEAP.
I’m going to point this out one more time: Mr. President, considering North Korea’s recent testing of long-range missiles, do you still support your decision to provide North Korea with the $95 million provided for in the 1994 Agreed Framework, while waiving the Framework’s requirement that the North Koreans submit to inspections in order to receive the funds?
http://nitpicker.blogspot.com/2005/09/negotiation-timelines.html
July 10th, 2006 at 2:42 pmJudd,
Oh man. I just realized this, this is hilarious. Guess who wrote the report that Judd has cited as evidence? Why… the Clinton administration!
Judd uses the Clinton administration to defend the Clinton administration while covering up the faults of the Clinton administration.
Good grief, Think Progress is like Pravda.
Spudge_Boy,
I sure labeling North Korea as part of the Axis of Evil really went a long way toward diplomacy.
I’m sure Kim Jong Il cried himself to sleep at being called evil. Why, he never knew that starving people to focus on nuclear weapons was evil! Why didn’t anyone tell him?!
July 10th, 2006 at 2:42 pmCAPTION CONTEST ENTRY:
“My God, they’re awakening… must run to the hills!”
July 10th, 2006 at 2:43 pmThis isn’t much to give. Enter bilateral talks with them, ask for concessions on weapons in return for the above, and declare a victory. Stop being so goddammned pigheaded.
Comment by DrSinker — July 10, 2006 @ 2:26 pm
The problem is that these guys think their dicks gets bigger everytime they refuse to talk. Consequently, the dicks shrink whenever they do POLITICS.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:45 pmTo the Bush administration, if you’re not bombing somebody, then they’re getting off light. Will we soon have three wars on our hands? Yikes.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
July 10th, 2006 at 2:47 pmHead to the SSA Blog for the latest on the NYC “terror plot” hoax
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
Seixon – so what would be your approach to NK? You can’t deny that things have gotten worse with them under Bush’s watch.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:47 pmSeixon,
If you are trying to diplomatically work with a country, you don’t call them names. Bush has already said that using his macho “bring it on” and “with us or against us” talk was a mistake.
Are you smart enough to figure out that using the “axis of evil” label was a mistake also?
I am gonna go with yes you are smart enough, but you are a partisan hack, so you won’t admit it.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:48 pmWhy, he never knew that starving people to focus on nuclear weapons was evil! Why didn’t anyone tell him?!
Comment by Seixon — July 10, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
You are talking about India, Israel, Pakistan, US, URSS…?
I just realized this, this is hilarious.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:50 pmYou just re-read what youve been posting?
And let’s not forget those pictures of Donald Rumsfeld kissing Saddams butt!
A picture is worth a thousand words.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:51 pmSeixon would do just what he & Tony Snow have already done….blame Bill Clinton.
I swear, if we had a dime for every time a republican blamed the Clinton’s for something or other, we’d all be off on holiday to some foreign land…..
July 10th, 2006 at 2:52 pm3. George W. Bush: 4-6 nuclear weapons’ worth of plutonium
Surely you meant ” 4-6 nukular weapons”.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:53 pmClint, Also don’t forget George holding hands with a Suadi Prince. Jeez, weren’t quite a few 911 terrorist from Suadi Arabia!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
July 10th, 2006 at 2:53 pmIf you are one hell of a bunch of screwed-up dumb asses just blame…… CLINTON.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:54 pmYou can tell how great Bill Clinton was by how much this administration has blamed him. It’s Rove’s turn a weakness into a strength. Christ, you can’t hardly go a week without hearing about Chappaquiddick. So I guess we will be hearing the blame game on Clinton into the year 2050.
How can theyblame him when both Gore and Kerry warned us during their campaigns that Bush doesn’t have a handle on it.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:55 pm#6-Sexion,
I am attempting to understand your logic. How is it that you think that “talking” with someone is bad diplomatic strategy? Would you like me to provide the definition for “diplomacy” or do you have access to a dictionary?
I look forward to your considered response.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:55 pmI spilled my coffee.
CLLIIIIIIIIINNNNTTTOOOOOOOONNN!!!!!!!
July 10th, 2006 at 2:56 pmI think sometimes Snow forgets he is addressing a broader and more intellectually able audience than those he addressed while reading Ken Mehlman talking points to his FOX folk. Guys like Snow and trolls that spend hour after hour here really miss the days when Clinton was in office. With Clinton, you had lies about a stained blue dresses, but got an intellect who could formulate and present coherent thoughts; with Bush, you get war, death, debt, corruption, spying on Americans AND a dullard who can’t formulate a thought that’s not on his note cards.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:57 pmCAPTION CONTEST
“I hope they believe this crap that is coming out of my mouth….I hope, I hope….”
July 10th, 2006 at 2:57 pmweren’t quite a few 911 terrorist from Suadi Arabia!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!?!
Comment by Yikes — July 10, 2006 @ 2:53 pm
Those were the bad ones. George W Bush is a friend of the good ones. See? With this Hollywood-approach-to-life you dont have to worry too much about thinking: Good guys and bad guys.
July 10th, 2006 at 2:59 pmArnold Schwarzenneger in Terminator I = bad guy, in Terminator 2 = good guy, Terminator 3 = good guy. Hussein, Osama bin Laden, and talibans during Reagan = good guys…nowadays = bad guys.
Caption contest:
July 10th, 2006 at 3:01 pmpssst……… you under the podium, watch it with the teeth…………
DrSinker,
You know, I really don’t know. NoKo seems like a hopeless situation. Obviously the best thing would be to have Kim Jong Il removed from power so the poor people in that country can have a shot at a real life. Accomplishing that, however, seems almost impossible. Attacking North Korea would ultimately result in the death of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people. That doesn’t sound good… Yet Kim Jong Il obviously does not want to give up his nukes, nor does he want to actually get anywhere diplomatically as he has shown over the past 2 decades. All he did with the Clinton administration was take them for a ride when they were trying to be nice to him.
In other words, I have said for a long time that we are just shit out of luck with NoKo. We are past the point of no return. We basically need a miracle to happen.
Spudge_Boy,
Calling NoKo evil is not a name, it’s an established fact. Ask Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International. NoKo has shown no real will to have constructive diplomacy, as they only seek to blackmail everyone and fool everyone, just like Iran is doing. These are psychotic people and the belief that we can reason with them is a mistake. You might as well believe we could have negotiated a peace deal with Hitler or brokered a treaty with Osama bin Laden. On the former, Stalin learned the hard way that you can’t take these kinds of people at their word.
Juan C,
You are talking about India, Israel, Pakistan, US, URSS…?
They’re starving their people to death to make nukes are they? Not according to human rights organizations. Or anyone with a brain.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:01 pmCAPTION CONTEST:
(Damn this spelling contest) Ok… DOG. D-O-G?
July 10th, 2006 at 3:03 pmThey’re starving their people to death to make nukes are they? Not according to human rights organizations. Or anyone with a brain.
Comment by Seixon — July 10, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
Take a trip to those countries. Next.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:05 pmSeixon a simple google search using the key words north korea food tree bark comes up with this BBC article.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/asia-pacific/1047793.stm
Kim may not be intentionally starving his people make nuclear weapons. But he is focusing on nuclear weapons instead of the problems facing his counrymen. I think the guy is a complete nutcase. He should be removed from power and the two Korea’s integrated.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:06 pmMalveaux on North Korea with Bush
By: John Amato on Monday, July 10th, 2006 at 8:55 AM – PDT
An interesting exchange between CNN’s Suzanne Malveaux and Bush about North Korea from last week.
Q Mr. President, if I could follow up, you say diplomacy takes time –
THE PRESIDENT: Yes, it does.
Q — but it was four years ago that you labeled North Korea a member of the “axis of evil.” And since then it’s increased its nuclear arsenal, it’s abandoned six-party talks and now these missile launches –
July 10th, 2006 at 3:06 pm…
waaaaaaahh, waaaaaaaaaah, we want war, waaaaaaah, we make money with war, waaaah, waaaaaaaah, are you people so stupid you haven’t figured that out yet waaaaaaaaaah, waaaaaaaaah…as long as we have fox and norwegians calling everyone waaaaaaaaah, waaaaaaaaaaah, evil and not doing anything about the evil in the white house, WE WIN…
July 10th, 2006 at 3:07 pmHumanist,
I am attempting to understand your logic. How is it that you think that “talking†with someone is bad diplomatic strategy? Would you like me to provide the definition for “diplomacy†or do you have access to a dictionary?
It’s a bad strategy when the one we are supposed to “talk” to doesn’t give a damn about anything we have to say and is only out to fool us. For a history lesson, read about the Molotov-Ribbentrop Pact. Or read about North Korea and the Taliban pulling a fast one on the Clinton administration.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:09 pmTony Snow is going with that SKELETAL look that just CRIES OUT “Bush learned from mistakes” so “Bring them on” and “What didn’t go right?”
A little more EMPTY EYE-SOCKET glaring, a few more pounds off the old wasteline, and Tony Snow, walking dead, will be handling the Presses like no one has EVER done.
‘Today, Tony Snow went berzerk and bit off the arm of a reporter from Ghana, when that reporter asked for the third time ‘What is the President’s schedule today?”
Recovering at a secret CIA hospital from the incident, Mr. Snow said that “It needed salt.”
The press secretary should be back at his podium, with restraints, this next Tuesday.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:09 pm#44 You are talking about India, Israel, Pakistan, US, URSS…?
They’re starving their people to death to make nukes are they? Not according to human rights organizations. Or anyone with a brain.
Comment by Seixon — July 10, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
1) The number of unemployed people in US was, repeat me again?
July 10th, 2006 at 3:11 pm2) You’re comparing your country’s success combating hunger and poverty with the actual Russia or India?
good few weeks for the fuhrer…everyone is talking about rush and ann and north korea and cell phones and the world cup and the weather and arguing with norwegians…meanwhile, the number of stories about haditha, raping 14 year old iraqi children, thousands upon thousands of deaths, the loss of civil liberties, halliburton are vanishing in thin air!!!
all we need is a shiney object wiggled in front of us and we pounce like my neighbor’s kittie! great job!
July 10th, 2006 at 3:12 pmSeixon, what the hell are you even talking about.
How do you refute the fact that NK has gotten much worse as an “evil nation” under the current admin. If you want to play the domestic blame game, then it doesn’t come back to Clinton, it comes to Bush.
And omg, they drank with NK during the clinton admin, i guess that donald having a nice chat with saddam means something as well? If you want to talk about partisan hackery, look at your own double standards.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:13 pmJuan C,
Take a trip to those countries. Next.
I see. So every government in Africa is intentionally starving their people? Logic is not your forte. People in Israel are starving??? The US? They’re being intentionally starved to make nuclear weapons? You’re off your rocker again mate.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:15 pmNoKo seems like a hopeless situation. Obviously the best thing would be to have Kim Jong Il removed from power so the poor people in that country can have a shot at a real life. Accomplishing that, however, seems almost impossible. Attacking North Korea would ultimately result in the death of thousands, hundreds of thousands, or even millions of people. That doesn’t sound good-Seixon
Replace NoKo with Iraq and Kim Jong Il with Saddam Hussein and re-read your statement. It seems clear to me that none of it sounds very good, does it?
Either way, it seems clear that the WH does not have an effective policy. Let’s all hope they figure something out, and don’t view the situation as “hopeless”. Of course, I wouldn’t put it past W to tell the country that “you know what, we’re just SOL on NK” and throw his arms up in the air.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:16 pmEver notice how you dont here war cries from the Trolls about North Korea as you do with iran
Even the trolls realise north Korea does not have oil to steal, ?????
July 10th, 2006 at 3:17 pmCAPTION CONTEST:
July 10th, 2006 at 3:17 pmHow do you expect me to defend policy
when we haven’t any?
Now how long will Bill Clinton be used for George W. Bush’s lie, corruption and mistakes. A real leader and man takes blame but a coward and a drunk blames someone else. Now let’s see how was the US during the Clinton years for both Dems/Republicans as to how is it now during the Bush years. Even Republicans did well yet the current Administration is destroying the US for everyone. Tony Snow job is such a bad lie and his Fox news acting isn’t working with honest experienced journalist.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:23 pmBush is scared of North Korea and theres not oil to steal. Let’s just say the Middle East countries played Bush for the stupid fool he is. The Saudis are like Al Qeada they just waited for the right time to take control it worked. Cheney was so busy working for Halliburton he wasn’t looking for a smarter group to take over. Snow can laugh and joke all he wants as the world leaders chip away at the US. When the full effect of what Bush Administration has done Americans of all parties will be to blame.
51 per cent voted for a corrupt lying stupid dumb President like it or not only the people can correct that mistake.
mmmmmmmm…the party of responsibility strikes again. They need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps and treat this like a real job.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:24 pmby boring,
How did NK come to have the ability to make nuclear weapons? Just because something happens during the Bush administration doesn’t mean they caused it to happen. Just like with 9/11, Bush had 8 months in office before it happened. Clinton had 2 years after bin Laden declared war on the USA. I’m not going to blame Clinton for not stopping 9/11, but the Clinton administration’s botched efforts to extract bin Laden from the Taliban was destined to fail because the Taliban never had an honest intention of giving him up.
The Clinton administration naively believed that the Taliban would give up bin Laden, so they kept having talks with a Taliban representative over 2 years. The Taliban guy kept stringing them along, making them believe they were “this close” to getting bin Laden, while he was actually just lying his ass off. The Taliban never had an intention of giving up bin Laden. The Bush administration knew this straight away, and they started to plan military action against the Taliban in the spring of 2001. Only problem was that Osama bin Laden got to us before we got him. The Bush administration had already planned on military strikes against the Taliban together with the Russians and the Norther Alliance in October 2001.
With North Korea, the Clinton administration let them have nuclear reactors and all sorts of things under the guise of “diplomacy”. NoKo was just fooling them. They weren’t interested in peace, they wanted nukes! After getting a hold of everything they needed from the USA, the AQ Khan network, and other countries, they started building nukes. You can’t blame the Bush administration for the naive actions of the Clinton administration which were partly the reason NoKo were even able to make nukes during the Bush administration.
That’s why Judd and Think Progress are trying to rewrite history to erase the fact that the Clinton administration “diplomacy” completely backfired because Kim Jong Il suckered them completely.
I’m not here to pretend that the current situation isn’t bad – it is, as I have stated above.
Yet there is no doubt for anyone who isn’t a partisan hack how we came to this point we are now. That people blame the Clinton administration for screwing up on North Korea isn’t because they are partisan Republicans (although they very well might be), it’s because it is an established recorded fact that Kim Jong Il suckered the Clinton administration to get what he needed.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:25 pm#20 e_five
July 10th, 2006 at 3:26 pmBill Clinton also had nothing to do with a balanced budget, but his policies somehow caused the largest deficit in the history of world government after he left office.
Perfect! Bullseye!
Brialliance from the Zoo and Chimpy the leader of the pack!
July 10th, 2006 at 3:31 pmOver five years, the White House has nothing to show for its flip-flop-flop approach to North Korea:
- 2001: no engagement
- 2004: six-party talks only
- 2006: Hill offers direct talks with North Korean counterparts
For more details on Bush five years of ineptitude and failure towards Pyongyang, see:
July 10th, 2006 at 3:34 pm“Bush’s U-Turn on North Korean Talks.”
This site is so full of international experts, You blubbering idiots, have no clue. Maybe japan will get pissed enough to rearm and take over the region, the plutonium lead in is bs as u all know.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:36 pmSo every government in Africa is intentionally starving their people?
Comment by Seixon
No, they care a lot about them. Just as developed countries.
WELCOME TO THE REAL WORLD. See if you can find a nice book regarding how european countries and US have divided that continent for themselves, how they have promoted slavery (yes, nowadays, slavery still exists! Sorry to burst your bubble) and they have financed and supported military governments in that continent.
People in Israel are starving??? The US? They’re being intentionally starved to make nuclear weapons? You’re off your rocker again mate.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:38 pmComment by Seixon — July 10, 2006 @ 3:15 pm
Really sorry to take you from your Teletubby world. Almost every important city in US has its misery zone as you know…homeless people who live there starve, yeah. Israel has based its power on war, while forgets about education and social welfare for its citizens. Leave you this.
As one struggling comedian said to the other, “Man, the comic who went on before me the other night was so bad, the audience was still booing him all through my act”!
July 10th, 2006 at 3:40 pmAfter getting a hold of everything they needed from the USA, the AQ Khan network, and other countries, they started building nukes.-Seixon
Seixon – when do you think they started to get what they needed from the Khan network? It may have begun under Clinton, I’m not sure about that. But if you read Suskind’s recent book, it’s hard to see how the WH didn’t know they were still trying this after 9/11. So they certainly didn’t have everything they needed until after W came into office.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:41 pmJuan C,
You have moved the goal posts completely to the other end of the field. We were talking about North Korea starving its people so that they can focus on building nukes. That isn’t true for any of the countries you have cited. You have moved the goal posts to the existence of starvation in a country. There is starvation in every single country in the world, so what is your point? You have none, which is why you foolishly moved the goal posts.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:42 pmNo matter who’s to “blame” for the North Korean nukes, since everything Bush touches turns to shit–I’m sure the North Korean “situation” will descend into Bush-level incompetence under the helm of Rice, Cheney, Bolton, and Rumsfeld. The neocon sockpuppet sqaud is ready!
July 10th, 2006 at 3:42 pmi just can’t get enough you high-minded neoconservative pieces of shit who get all high and mighty, as if they give two shits about the ‘people of north korea’ and boo freakin hoo, kim is so crazy!
suck on this, you hypocritical bastards:
if you want to do something for an oppressed people,
QUIT FUNDING ISRAEL
QUIT PRETENDING YOU DO NOT SEE WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING
QUIT BLOCKING UN ACTION ISRAEL
since this bush crime family is in may ways a creation of zionists, and since the bush crime family has so much influence with israel, why don’t you sick neoconservative mouthpieces spread some of your COMPASSION and convince the usa to do something in a country where they can effect policy, instead of spreading their imperialism to countries where they have no impact.
yeah, you care about the ‘north korean people’
bullshit!
July 10th, 2006 at 3:43 pmThis is so ridiculous. Clinton was years ago. Take responsibility for the situation you’re in now and do something about it. Fix the problem, morons. What they don’t want to admit is the US’s terrible, aggressive behavior in Iraq has exacerbated the problem. Nobody trusts the US around the world.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:46 pmI like that one Rich, funny.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:47 pmI was wondering when and how the right was going to use their own flowers and kisses against the Democrats.
Bushco, theatre of the absurd.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:49 pmMr. Danger (the TRAITOR Bushiva) has certainly learned a valuable lesson…
…”don’t let your chickenhawk mouth get your hummingbird a*s KICKED!”
…a MILLION MAN army, 20,000 chemical warheads, and eight to ten nukes…
…commands bilateral diplomacy…
…once again Mr. Danger finds he has to FLIP-FLOP on his “NO Bilateral Talks w/L’il Kim” declaration…
…dumb basta*d…
July 10th, 2006 at 3:53 pmLittle ole South African fact.
Crime victims staged an angry protest in South Africa on Tuesday after the government suggested those who “whinged” about levels of murder and rape should emigrate.
Demonstrators said the number of assaults and armed robberies was unacceptable and had turned daily life into a lottery, with 51 murders and 151 rapes recorded daily.
They were responding to the safety and security minister, Charles Nqakula, who implied in a parliamentary debate this month that those who complained about crime were unpatriotic moaners.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:53 pmAs for Snowjob…
…this job and its dishonesty quotient…
…will almost certainly bring back that cancer…
…or something worse…
…his Karma demands it…
July 10th, 2006 at 3:55 pmhere is the link to above article if anyone is interested in bush-sanctioned war-crimes in palestine…
it is not about cellphones or global warming, but, it might interest some people here.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:55 pmbig papa has a big ole h##on, might want to look up the meaning of chicken hawk
July 10th, 2006 at 3:55 pmso what is your point? You have none, which is why you foolishly moved the goal posts.
Comment by Seixon — July 10, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
According to you North Korea is a terrible threat to mankind (although humankind has survived Koreans since the beginning) and its president KIm JOng-Il (which I do not support, he is a murderer, plain and simple) should be taken down for spending money in nuclear equipment and starving his own people to death. I told you, that there are several other countries which spend a lot more in military equipment than food. I havent read you about these other countries, specially if they are US allies or US itself. So, first, who give you or US, the right to decide whether a president should be taken down or not? That is the most important question, cause if you agree with this, the same reason could be used by any other country, to decide US sovereing issues. This is called equality. You are a centerist so my guess is that you agree with this. Second, the money that the world spends on warfare or arms is far superior to the money it is spent for health, education and social welfare. I would encourage you to protest against these problems rather than posting rightwing propaganda.
July 10th, 2006 at 3:57 pmJuan C,
According to you North Korea is a terrible threat to mankind
Ehm, no. North Korea is a threat to South Korea, Japan, and will be a threat to the Pacific United States in the near future. Strawmen are quite silly, stop using them.
I told you, that there are several other countries which spend a lot more in military equipment than food
You have once again moved the goal posts. We were talking about starvation happening due to using means on nuclear weapons. The parameter was never “spending more on military equipment than food”. Hell, Norway probably even spends more on military equipment than food.
So, first, who give you or US, the right to decide whether a president should be taken down or not?
I think it is a broad consensus among the world’s population that Kim Jong Il should be removed from power.
Second, the money that the world spends on warfare or arms is far superior to the money it is spent for health, education and social welfare. I would encourage you to protest against these problems rather than posting rightwing propaganda.
That’s great, but that’s not the topic here. If it were up to me, weapon production would be outlawed, but that’s not a realistic option. I haven’t posted any rightwing propaganda.
July 10th, 2006 at 4:07 pmWow, Snow looks terrified in that picture!
For all its complications, the Clinton policy was workable and flexible. In comes Bush with his little man complex and picks a fight just to look tough.
Now China holds all the cards and Bush does what he’s told. Nice going, dumbass.
July 10th, 2006 at 4:08 pm.
and you oh so compassionate types that care so much about human rights abuses by that mean little korean, i am certain you will do something, express the same outrage at the new CCR report on the human rights abuses by BUSH at GUANTANAMO, right?
err, i won’t hold my breath, you filthy hypocrital, lying morons!!
July 10th, 2006 at 4:11 pm
Snow is clearly trying to distance the WH from it’s recent soft stand.
July 10th, 2006 at 4:11 pmJudd – I am positive you can provide a source for the information you cite mention below. The NYT?? Helen Thomas?? Paul Krugman??? (I am hoping it’s not the “New & Improved” North Korean Government approved version. We all know what a transparent government they havewhen it comes to pizza ovens and toasting Madeline Albright…)
1. George H. W. Bush: one to two bombs’ worth of plutonium
2. Bill Clinton: zero plutonium
3. George W. Bush: 4-6 nuclear weapons’ worth of plutonium
July 10th, 2006 at 4:13 pmBushiva’s miscalculation and mishandling of NK is further evidence of his unfitness for the office od POTUS…
…NO COUNTRY on this planet is going to follow Mr. Danger’s idiotic lead…
…the TREASONOUS, corrupt Bushite junta HAS LOST ALL INTERNATIONAL CREDIBILITY!
…therefore Bushites’ attempts at “diplomacy” are DOOMED!
…no one wants to bargain with a LOSER…
America is in deep shiite…
…as NK is to China…
…what Israel is to the U.S…
July 10th, 2006 at 4:18 pmI think it is a broad consensus among the world’s population that Kim Jong Il should be removed from power.
Really?
North Korea threatens a war of annihilation against its southern neighbor. It supports itself by dealing drugs and counterfeit currency. But at least it’s not as bad as Israel.
That, at any rate, is the conclusion of a just-released poll of Europeans from 15 EU member states sponsored by the European Commission. Asked to rank 15 countries on how they threaten “world peace,” Europeans chose their top threats thus: Israel, Iran, North Korea, Afghanistan, Iraq, and the United States.
A full 59 percent of those polled in 15 European nations ranked Israel as the top threat. What is one to make of this?
N Korea launches 7 missiles without hitting soil = big scandal.
Isreal (big nuke owner) bombs everyday Palestinians = not a word.
Have I read you about Israel murderous actions? I dont think so. (Oh, I forgot, the thread is not about that)
July 10th, 2006 at 4:18 pmthey hate us for our freedom
July 10th, 2006 at 4:21 pmwe’re fighting them over there so we don’t have to fight them over here
July 10th, 2006 at 4:22 pmcut and run
July 10th, 2006 at 4:23 pmWould love to actually see the question, even some accuracy of the polls etc.
July 10th, 2006 at 4:23 pmfreedom is on the march
July 10th, 2006 at 4:24 pmTony Snow is still doing his talk radio show where all the
July 10th, 2006 at 4:25 pmred necks believe everything he says and love his sarcasism. You see, only the poor, the unemployed and
the disabled are required to TAKE RESPONSIBILITY
for what occurs certainly not the Conservative Government in charge.
84#
1642 days Held at Guantanamo
Nothing compared to what bush will get I hope
Heres agood site on guantanamo for you
http://www.cageprisoners.com/index.php
July 10th, 2006 at 4:25 pmflip flop
I think my computer has been attacked by the “Mehlman Virus” and is only capable of spouting GOP talking points.
July 10th, 2006 at 4:26 pmWould love to actually see the question, even some accuracy of the polls etc.
Comment by Umbra — July 10, 2006 @ 4:23 pm
July 10th, 2006 at 4:27 pmDont worry. You will come up with something to discredit it and protect your mind from arguments.
I’m not going to blame Clinton for not stopping 9/11, but the Clinton administration’s botched efforts to extract bin Laden from the Taliban was destined to fail because the Taliban never had an honest intention of giving him up.
Wait…wait…..why don’t you let us know when you’ve “started” blaming Clinton, okay?
July 10th, 2006 at 4:29 pmI get tired of the hypocrisy of the U.S. whinging when other countries develop nukes. We have by far the largest arsenal of nukes ourselves and are still the only country to have ever actually used nukes in combat.
I personally would like to see all nukes dismantled, but that is a long way off. And NO, I am NOT suggesting that the U.S. unilaterally dismantle our nukes at this time in history. But let’s get real here. In the current hypercharged atmosphere, any country which has the capacity is going to develop a few nukes.
Kim Jung Il is not a nice man and history will not be kind to him for diverting his country’s already sparse resources into his military. But he, and other heads in other countries which have nukes, aren’t crazy enough to actually use them. They know we have the power to turn them to glass. We don’t have to bother to threaten them.
There are no surefire ways of dealing with Kim or the others. Threats clearly aren’t working. Offering some help with food for his people in return for assurances that he will cease from developing further weapons might help. And we need to really hone our Special Forces and let people like him know that if they fire bombs at other countries or move even one soldier into another country, that we’ll take the dictators out. But then we’ll have to face what should be done with the ensuing power vacuum.
No easy answers here. But empty bloviating, threats, and appearing “strong” aren’t answers; they are part of the problem.
July 10th, 2006 at 4:31 pmCaption: I.. ah.. I do have my pants on, don’t I?
July 10th, 2006 at 4:32 pmLet’s see:
Clinton – Multiple Budget Surpluses
Bush – 400,000,000,000 deficits as far as the eye can see
Clinton – The Dow TRIPLES during his administration (3800->11700)
Bush – the Dow has done nothing in 6 years
Clinton – 18 million high-tech jobs
Bush – 4 million big mac jobs
Clinton – wins wars in Bosnia and Kosovo – a grateful world thanks us
Bush – loses wars in Iraq & Afghanistan – the world hates our guts
Clinton – real incomes are up for the majority of American families
Bush – real incomes are down for the majority of American families
Clinton – Rhodes Scholar
Bush – Incredible Doofus
Shall I go on?
July 10th, 2006 at 4:36 pmWell, Kim Jong Il literally exchanges big gifts with the publisher of the Washington Times.
July 10th, 2006 at 4:39 pmah, the old anti-isreal counter-argument… that is an oldie but a goodie for you sick hypocrites! don’t counter the argument, pull out the YOU HATE JEWS CARD and quelch any debate on substance. you people are sickening!
i repeat:
the point of bringing in the SACRED COW of isreal is to point out that while you sick bastards get all high and mighty about coutries where you have no influence, you ignore the ones where you do!!!
f you want to do something for an oppressed people,
QUIT FUNDING ISRAEL
QUIT PRETENDING YOU DO NOT SEE WHAT ISRAEL IS DOING
QUIT BLOCKING UN ACTION ISRAEL
since this bush crime family is in may ways a creation of zionists, and since the bush crime family has so much influence with israel, why don’t you sick neoconservative mouthpieces spread some of your COMPASSION and convince the usa to do something in a country where they can effect policy, instead of spreading their imperialism to countries where they have no impact.
yeah, you care about the ‘north korean people’
bullshit!
one of the bugs said: We don’t need to get into a discussion about that here.
and, think that this is exactly the place to show yet another hypocrisy of the right. deal with it!
July 10th, 2006 at 4:40 pmTony Snow = Liar
July 10th, 2006 at 4:43 pmCAPTION CONTEST!
“Are they buying it? I don’t think they’re buying it. Why the hell did I take this job?
July 10th, 2006 at 4:46 pmThe NK policy that Clinton’s admin started needed to be sustained in order to lead to success. This administartion stopped talking with NK as soon as it took office and we see the result of it! They can’t forever blame Clinton for their own failures. We would have had a different and much better situation in our relationship with NK (and the whole world) if democrats had gone to WH after Clinton and continued the engagment path with NK, Iran and the rest of the world.
July 10th, 2006 at 4:46 pmboth Israel and the Palestinians have sinned in trying to make this problem stop.
Comment by Seixon
Are you a priest or a cleric? Why cant you use regular vocabulary like everybody? Stop these god-fearing preaching examples, please.
That does nothing to demonstrate whether or not the global public opinion on Kim Jong Il is that he should be removed.
Yeah, it should…BY NORTH KOREA´S CITIZENS. Just as Saddam Hussein should have been removed by Iraqis or Hamas by Palestinians. Do you think you hold sovereignity over the rest of the world? No, you dont.
You seem like a biased Israel-hater
July 10th, 2006 at 4:50 pmI dont hate anybody. It is a waste of time and it hasnt yet proved some utility when it comes to human relationships. Just like you, I stick to historical facts: Great Britain, US and Israel, biggest murderous states ever.
#107
interesting article. thanks for posting it…
July 10th, 2006 at 4:51 pm
Snow’s statement is evidence that even if he has changed the address of where he works, he is still on the Faux payroll and still spouting the same talking points that obsesses all the brainless dead who work for that network.
July 10th, 2006 at 4:57 pmI want to personally thank Think Progress for their help in dragging the democratic party so far to the left and out of the mainstream. Keep doing what you are doing and we will keep winning elections!
July 10th, 2006 at 5:00 pmI thought Clinton left office years ago. Go figure.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:03 pm#105
And you probably still believe in the tooth fairy too!
July 10th, 2006 at 5:04 pmSo that people don’t blame me of hit-fishing, here’s the article I alluded to earlier:
This article was published April 3, 2002, less than two months after North Korea received “Axis of Evil” status.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:06 pmMmm…. chocolate….
July 10th, 2006 at 5:09 pmNothing new, they have been blaming stuff on Bill for 6 years now.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:11 pmClinton has been gone for six years! He is not involved and Bush has done NOTHING about NK for at least three years after naming it one of the hated “axis of evil”
Might as well cite another past president to blame for the inept and stupid management of these affairs by George Bush.
I suspect he knows not a damn thing about NK and prefers not to. That way he can blame someone else. He is a trained monkey and can’t wait to string this out so someone else who comes along in “08 can have the responsibility, while he retires to his compound, a rich man, serving drinks to Laura.
I suspect Condi, in her new role as manufacturing an “image” for Goerge Bush, rather than pursuing the real job of Sec’y of State, is as much a trained monkey as George. They are both hanging out, waiting to retire, ans will do as much to screw it up, so that someone else can take care of it
Enough of thuis Clinton crap. Bush has done NOTHING not a damn thing re NK for three damn years. NOW you want to blame a past president, who has not had a finger in the affair for six years?
You know, that sounds like desperation.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:11 pmMR. RUSSERT: But do they keep their word? Here’s Madeleine Albright toasting Kim Jong Il in North Korea, October of 2000. She appeared on this program four years later, and this was our exchange:
(Videotape, September 12, 2004):
MR. RUSSERT: But didn’t North Korea develop a nuclear bomb on Bill Clinton’s watch?
MS. MADELEINE ALBRIGHT: No. What they were doing, as it turns out, they were cheating. And the reason that you have arms control agreements is you don’t make them with your friends, you make them with your enemies. And it is the process that is required to hold countries accountable.
(End videotape)
MR. RUSSERT: Ambassador Gallucci, you negotiated that ‘94 agreement. The North Koreans stopped processing in one plant, if you will, but we later found out that at the same time, they were making uranium at another plant.
MR. GALLUCCI: Not actually, no. That’s not what we found out. What happened was we did do a deal. We did stop the—a plutonium-based program, nuclear weapons program. We made sure that 8,000 fuel rods containing around 30 kilograms—enough for five nuclear weapons worth of plutonium—stayed in, in a storage pond. And a deal would have had the North Koreans end their nuclear weapons program. We think they started cheating in the late ‘90s by getting some gas centrifuge equipment from Pakistan. We don’t know a lot about that, where it is, whether the equipment has been put together. We think over a period of time they’ll do what the Pakistanis did, what the Iranians appear to be wanting to do, and put together this gas centrifuge. They never got there yet—or we don’t think they’ve gotten there yet.
MR. RUSSERT: But they broke their word.
MR. GALLUCCI: They absolutely cheated. There’s no question about that. But we really, really ought to be clear here what’s happened. There was a nuclear weapons program that was stopped. Plutonium production was stopped, right? And afterwards, tragically, I believe, that agreement which locked them up, was allowed to collapse. And we find ourselves now with the North Koreans accumulating plutonium, a bomb’s worth a year, and freed up that plutonium that was controlled for that period of time, and they say they’ve used it to make bombs. We would have to estimate about five more.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:13 pm…
from MTP transcript, p.4-5
msnbc.msn.com (spam filter doesn’t like link)
#59 ” 51 per cent voted for a corrupt lying stupid dumb President like it or not only the people can correct that mistake. ”
I have no faith in the American electorate. You just know its going to repeat itself. The humble voter is outflanked and less sophisticated than the slick, corrupt and well-oiled two-party system that has produced the current failures in leadership.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:14 pmCaption contest: “I wasn’t even supposed to BE here today!”
July 10th, 2006 at 5:15 pmLook, Seixon says “Ask Human Rights Watch or Amnesty International. ”
July 10th, 2006 at 5:17 pmAs far as I can tell, they think this administration is pretty evil too – so you think they”re right, and GWB and the boys are eviil?
Nice corner painting.
why do you people waste your time nit-picking with this lying, neo-conservative, disingenuous, ignorant norwegian fool??????
again, this thread has let the ’shiney object’ of some moron take your eyes off the real issue, in my opinion, and that is the hypocrisy of the bush crime family and their apologists claiming to care about human rights abuses in north korea whilst the imperialist usa becomes the largest group of terrorists and human rights abusers in guantanamo, afghanistan, iraq, several renditioned sites, and, at the same time, they fund the war crimes of israel against the palestinians.
wow! you let this little pip-squeak of nothingness lead you around day after day after day. leave the bastard alone and with any luck he will find another place to do his public masturbation…
please!
July 10th, 2006 at 5:18 pmHey Seixon, you should probably do some homework on this one before spouting off. All administrations bare some of the blame but if you really look at the numbers the Clinton admins. policy with NK was working best in turns of nukes produced. Check into it.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:22 pm# 138 Ha ha ha
July 10th, 2006 at 5:27 pmCAPTION CONTEST: What? Are those cameras on? Is it not a press conference rehearsal?
July 10th, 2006 at 5:29 pmWow, Seixon. You really seem desperate to prove a point. Come on, gather up some inuit fellas and build yourself an igloo.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:31 pmSeixon,
Don’t mean to rain on your parade, but your science is way off.
You can argue that Clinton was appeasing the North Koreans, but it was working. The agreement (see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework ) was for them to quit using and building reactors that could produce plutonium. In return the US would help with oil, food and replacement light water reactors (non-breeding type). That was working, along with inspection teams, until about a year after Bush took office. NK has since (supposedly) restarted their graphite-moderated reactors – the ones that can make plutonium – and continued/restarted their weapons-grade uranium enrichment (over 90% U235 versus 3% reactor grade).
Make your argument that Clinton should have taken them out, or not appeased them (even if it was working). But it wasn’t NK “sneeking in” lots of stuff under Clinton that made them increase their bomb production. The inspectors can get fooled for some small prjects, but weapons grade uranium enrichment requires about 1200 cascaded gas centrifuges at a minimum. With NK’s technology most likely several thousand. We’re talking a plant thats hundreds of acres in size (see Iran’s Nantz facility with only about 165-centrifuge cascade).
Fine, W quit appeasing the North Koreans. He also did absolutely nothing for the last four years while they ramped up U235 and P235 production capabilities.
It all took place under Bush’s watch.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:32 pmMalveaux on North Korea with Bush
Comment by katy
Absolutely Fabulous! GWB was getting SO pissed off at the nerve of her, but she kept on going! Someone should send Malveaux flowers and chocolates…
July 10th, 2006 at 5:35 pmYou can also see that Bush is defininitely not use to Malveaux or anyone else in the tv press asking tough questions. The guy is just the biggest baby we have ever had in the office. He’s a complete wuss.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:39 pmCaption:
Uh-oh, Helen Thomas just walked in…
July 10th, 2006 at 5:42 pm[...] Yikes! Tony Snow is getting tee-e-e-e-sty! In a press conference today, the press secretary, backed into a corner over North Korea, accused Bill Richardson of going to the Koreans with “flowers and chocolates.” Check it out at ThinkProgress. I understand what the Clinton administration wanted to do. They wanted to talk reason to the government of Pyongyang, and they engaged in bilateral conversations. And Bill Richardson went with flowers and chocolates, and he went with light water nuclear reactors, and he went with promises of heavy oil and a basketball signed by Michael Jordan, and many other inducements for the dear leader to try to agree not to develop nuclear weapons, and it failed. [...]
July 10th, 2006 at 5:55 pm#14; You missed one; the White House also sez…. Bill Clinton sank the Titanic.
July 10th, 2006 at 5:56 pmCaption:
I’m an empty suit, with a rented head.
July 10th, 2006 at 6:03 pmShit, did I just say that out loud?
Seixon,
As to Uranium enrichment, the NKs have been doing that (at reactor-grade level) since back in the 80’s. The graphite-moderated reactors (and likely more enrichment technology) was primarily developed under Reagan and Bush, with the prevailing opinion that China was the big helper. NK supposedly produced the first few bombs worth of plutonium during HW Bush’s term, then put the programs “on hold” (at least shutting down the graphite-moderated reactors) while we bought them off from ‘94 on.
Bush should have acted like a thinking rational adult and anticipated that cutting off aid to NK would make them revert back to their weapons programs. See that coming a mile away. Either plan for the consequences (we should have been ready to take on NK militarily) or start the 6-way talks before cutting them off. Or find another type of incentive. Get China to put pressure on them. Work closely with South Korea to keep NK from restarting. Buy Kim off and put him on an island with the Swedish Bikini team. Or get a regime change underway while we were still appeasing them (before bomb production restarted – the bomb efforts takes months, even years to get ramped up). Something, rather than do nothin.
The point is, the president (any president) should take responsibility for their actions, anticipate likely consequences and be prepared for them (or try alternatives before the shit hits the fan).
July 10th, 2006 at 6:06 pm#154; Bush, a rational thinking adult? LOL!!!
July 10th, 2006 at 6:24 pmi think it sounds alot like most of you posting here actually think that the bush crime family does not really want north korea to be a threat to region. you are wrong.
bush is the devil. he only cares for pain, blood, and money–there are no other priorities.
the reason he did nothing is because he wanted to do nothing. by doing nothing, he increases money-making oppotunities for the same special interests that are now coming in their pants over afghanistan and iraq.
i think it sounds alot like most of you posting here actually think that it matters what clinton did or did not do. you are wrong.
clinton was an arms-dealer too. what he did or didn’t do does not matter. history is irrelevant at this point.
i think it sounds alot like most of you posting here actually think that it matters what snow says or doesn’t say. you are wrong.
snow is merely the sphincter of the bush crime family. but, you treat him as some sort of magician and marvel at how he trys to trick you. he is nothing. just another shiney object.
i know shiney objects seem to be quite a pleasant thing, but, while everyone looks at the object spin, the world is going straight to hell, thanks to bush…that is why the october surprise will work. that is why the democrats will lose again in november.
July 10th, 2006 at 6:30 pmand, i am afraid that think progress is beginning to lose its edge and has become a poster of shiney objects. cell phones? spanish jeeps? tony snow? bush lies about global warming? wow! fascinating!
headline: 2 + 2 still equal 4 – click here for the video
and, the posters here allow the simpleton trolls to take over and distract you with their silliness… take a stand, ignore the static, and realize the end is nearer than it has ever been and all i see here is a bunch of whistling and blowing smoke up each others asses…
July 10th, 2006 at 6:38 pmSeixon – you never did comment on my post regarding the AQ Khan network. I think you’re out on a limb there.
July 10th, 2006 at 6:54 pmTell Bush and Tony, Clinton is no longer president. The problems we face today are are not plural but singular; it is president Pinocchio – George Bush.
July 10th, 2006 at 7:28 pmIts all Clinton’s fault… Clinton didn’t solve all the worlds problems. Clinton should have anticipated a simpleton becoming President.
July 10th, 2006 at 7:49 pm156 – Jim, Of course, the Dems will lose in November – not because I wish it so BUT because of the facts. The majority of Americans don’t like the lingering nature of this war (THAT is NOT a new phenomena in history) BUT (!!!) they don’t trust DEMS to protect the country. And before the moonbats cite the CNN poll or USA Today polls which cite the opposite, they might want to reconsider polling data from a larger and more diverse cross section of Americans. (FYI – A poll conducted in Montpelier, Boston and NYC is NOT a diverse cross section or the populace.) Americans might be sick of news reports of small victories and large losses but when Dems say “We offer a plan for improved national security – “THE PLAN” is never revealed for analysis. The leftist moonbat wing of the Dem Party is the crowd that controls the convention floor with the party faithful. And, yes, you will lose….again…..
July 10th, 2006 at 8:03 pmDrSinker,
Seixon – you never did comment on my post regarding the AQ Khan network. I think you’re out on a limb there.
You do? OK, I missed that one, you said:
Seixon – when do you think they started to get what they needed from the Khan network? It may have begun under Clinton, I’m not sure about that. But if you read Suskind’s recent book, it’s hard to see how the WH didn’t know they were still trying this after 9/11. So they certainly didn’t have everything they needed until after W came into office.
Hmm. Wikipedia, sourcing the New York Times:
AQ Khan had been running game with North Korea all throughout the Clinton administration. What happened when Bush came into power?
And further:
You were saying?
July 10th, 2006 at 8:06 pmDon’t they remind you of children? Remember when you were little and someone broke a neighbor’s window with a baseball and everyone scattered? When confronted by the neighbor and/or your parents later on everyone responded with “not me” and “I didn’t do it” or “it wasn’t my fault”.
This administration is the most insulting, degrading, paranoid and patently clueless as any before them in the history of this nation. Hell, any nation! They believe their own bullshit so much that they are confused by anything resembling reality and truthfulness. In other words, THEY SUCK!!!
July 10th, 2006 at 8:23 pmSeixon
Sir, you kicked some serious ass. You had all six of them scrambling all over to find another stupid argument. It really is sad to see their anger, but you have to realize that most of the posters here are not even “american” let alone a U.S. citizens.
Notice the only serious thoughts here are attempts at name calling, the serious call of justice.
July 10th, 2006 at 8:38 pmYou were saying?-Seixon
So, essentially, your point is that NK had everything they needed, and we knew it, and Bush still didn’t do anything about it? Brilliant.
Suskind’s book makes the point that we knew about Khan’s dealing with NK, Iran, Libya, and others for some time, and very conveniently did not release that knowledge in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. Why? Because it would have been clear that Saddam was not the biggest threat.
July 10th, 2006 at 8:42 pmDrSinker,
So, essentially, your point is that NK had everything they needed, and we knew it, and Bush still didn’t do anything about it? Brilliant.
Yeah, Bush did nothing. Other than force Pakistan to roll up AQ Khan. Nothing really. Wink, wink. What else would you have liked Bush to do? Invade? Continue the charade with North Korea where they would pretend to listen to us while shopping around for and building nukes behind our backs?
I can’t recall anyone even mentioning the money-laundering scheme North Korea was running, and its role in the Bush administration policy towards NoKo.
Suskind’s book makes the point that we knew about Khan’s dealing with NK, Iran, Libya, and others for some time, and very conveniently did not release that knowledge in the run-up to the invasion of Iraq. Why? Because it would have been clear that Saddam was not the biggest threat.
Either that or they were still working with Libya to have him give up the game, which he did after we took down Saddam. Funny how that worked out.
July 10th, 2006 at 8:50 pmEither that or they were still working with Libya to have him give up the game, which he did after we took down Saddam. Funny how that worked out.-Seixon
Yeah, and Suskind again debunks the notion that these were related. Quoting Sullivan, from today:
You were saying???
July 10th, 2006 at 8:53 pmSingle liberal source… must be true
July 10th, 2006 at 9:02 pmOh man, DrSinker, you just opened up a can of whoop-ass on old Seixon!!!!
July 10th, 2006 at 9:03 pmSingle liberal source… must be true-Umbra
Translation: I can’t come up with anything to actually counter this, so I’ll attribute it to the default liberal bias.
July 10th, 2006 at 9:06 pmActually I think Seixon is amazed that someone could be so stupid
July 10th, 2006 at 9:06 pmActually I think Seixon is amazed that someone could be so stupid-Umbra
Right – they give Pulitzer Prizes to stupid people. Good one.
July 10th, 2006 at 9:08 pmThey give pulitzers for treason, why not
July 10th, 2006 at 9:09 pmThey give pulitzers for treason, why not-Umbra
Let me guess – you’re a regular reader of Powerline. That explains a few things.
July 10th, 2006 at 9:14 pmWow, checked it out. Dont have to bring cheese.
July 10th, 2006 at 9:18 pmDrSinker
That was a good tip, got any more?
July 10th, 2006 at 9:21 pmwow, the trolls have their own trolls… see what happens?
July 10th, 2006 at 9:23 pmThat was a good tip, got any more?-Umbra
Turn on ESPN. Big Papi is CRUSHING the ball in the HR derby right now!
July 10th, 2006 at 9:24 pmNa, I’m with risser. I really like Aljazeera.Net, they tell the truth dont you know. makes me really angry at my motherland, our army, my mother, etc.
July 10th, 2006 at 9:28 pmSeixon is also Bill Clinton’s fault.
July 10th, 2006 at 9:38 pmNa, I’m with risser. I really like Aljazeera.Net, they tell the truth dont you know. makes me really angry at my motherland, our army, my mother, etc.-Umbra
That’s a shame. Probably you should think about getting out once in awhile. You know, get a life or something. Just an idea.
July 10th, 2006 at 9:41 pmHas one, global warming made me do this. Im pretty sure though it started around 1000 bc when they started torching the piles of human corpses.
July 10th, 2006 at 9:44 pmshould read “had one”
July 10th, 2006 at 9:45 pmThe Bush lovers can blame former President Clinton all they want, because he is considered a member of the Bush family > even Barbara Bush calls him one of her sons now > lol. He and Hillary have sold-out like old Joe Lieberman did years ago! Shame on Bushes and Clintons!
July 10th, 2006 at 9:58 pmUmbra is a scientist, so he knows pretty much about Global Warming.
July 10th, 2006 at 10:04 pmUmbra is a critic journalist, so he knows Pulitzer Prizes are given for treason.
Umbra thinks there are Muslims lurking in the night hating his freedom.
Umbra hate Russians more than russians hate him, so he has an advantage.
Umbra compares his mother to an army who premeditately rape and killed children (post #179).
hey troll’s troll, can you point to one untrue article on the aljazeera.net site today? if not, then, go out and play in traffic with your parent troll…
July 10th, 2006 at 10:26 pmDrSinker,
So the US and Britain told Gaddafi to keep their little deal a secret until Saddam Hussein bounced out of his throne? I’m not saying that Gaddafi definitely did defect his WMDs due to Saddam’s overthrow, but one did come after the other. That wasn’t my point, anyways.
My point was: “they were still working with Libya to have him give up the game”
Which you corroborated with Suskind’s: “It turns out Ghadafi had been entrapped by careful intelligence work long before the Iraq war was launched”
In other words, the reason for not blabbing all about AQ Khan, Libya, Iran, etc, etc is that they were still working on Libya and Iran. You don’t go blabbing all about intelligence when you’re still running an intelligence operation.
chris,
Oh man, DrSinker, you just opened up a can of whoop-ass on old Seixon!!!!
Except for the inconvenient little fact that he corroborated what I was saying…
July 10th, 2006 at 10:33 pmBut Tony Snow fails to mention Bush is doing the Clinton bilateral talk and offering light water nuclear technology to Iran, the other axis of evil.
July 10th, 2006 at 11:00 pmThe North Korea Clinton Gambit…
Judd of Think Progress claims the Clinton administration’s policy on North Korea was objectively best of the last three presidents. You’ll never guess who he uses as a source for this claim!…
July 10th, 2006 at 11:54 pmI think his mouth looks like a sphincter. That explains why tony snow is always slinging shit from that hole.
And truly, does he not look completely scared?
July 11th, 2006 at 12:18 amAll I have to say to this is read “Blowback” by Chalmers Johnson.
July 11th, 2006 at 12:51 amWell, if Clinton is to be blamed, then I guess the next president will be albe to cleanly blame any of his errors on Bush, right?
As flippant and disconnected from reality as this statement is, it is comparable to some of the logic I’ve read here. Long and short of it is that we have not had smart, truly talented people running our government for an awfully long time. The only thing that the politicians I’ve seen in the last 30 years or so seem to be good at is telling people what they want to hear. And telling them what their values and religion should be.
They’re not good at solving problems, just shelling out verbal feces that insults my intelligence. And Tony snow is a damned fine practitioner of the art of dispensing this special, steaming kind of bullshit.
Fact is that North Korea can be dealt with in a non-war manner. Yes, we won’t get he warm fuzzies from flexing our scrotal muscles and making our balls feel big. But in the end we’d all be safer. Unfortunately, this current gang in Washington (and some of predecessors) just don’t have the talent for reading people and the gift of subtlety that true diplomacy requires.
Sad fact is, this is a bipartisan problem. We as American people have lowered the standards for political officeholders by -not- calling them on their B.S. The mainstream press has not exactly been helpful beign the supposed “watchdogs” that they profess themselves to be. George Bush is just an inflated cartoon version of the classic incompetent that we’ve allowed in office in the last 30 years (or better). The press certainly has not been diligent in letting the American people know about it.
We got what we deserve. And it is going to take one hell of a smart person to undo the damage that’s been done. It’ll take a “Regime Change” in this country. And even when we get that, don’t look for it to happen overnight.
July 11th, 2006 at 12:55 am[...] White House Blasts Clinton North Korea Policy (Washington Post) WASHINGTON — The White House belittled former President Clinton’s policy of direct engagement with North Korea on Monday, saying efforts to shower North Korean leader Kim Jong Il “with flowers and chocolates” failed. [video via Think Progress] [...]
July 11th, 2006 at 2:19 amTo the various critics of this article — have you read the wikipedia article?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Agreed_Framework
Basically, NK had graphite reactors which can be readily used to make plutonium. Clinton basically agreed to bribe them with light water reactors, which are not so plutonium-friendly, plus oil. We reneged on these promises during the Bush administration, with the results we have today.
Might have NK reneged on their end of the deal if we had followed through? Quite possibly. But to blame Clinton for a deal that a Republican-controlled Congress nixed is silly.
July 11th, 2006 at 7:04 amI’m not saying that Gaddafi definitely did defect his WMDs due to Saddam’s overthrow, but one did come after the other. That wasn’t my point, anyways.-Seixon
Sure you were. Heckofa point there! One came after the other-big deal! That’s not what your buddy Bush suggested.
In other words, the reason for not blabbing all about AQ Khan, Libya, Iran, etc, etc is that they were still working on Libya and Iran. You don’t go blabbing all about intelligence when you’re still running an intelligence operation.-Seixon
Nice try at spin, but that’s not the deal. Read Suskind’s book. “Working with Iran”.. are you serious? This administration?!?!
chris,
Oh man, DrSinker, you just opened up a can of whoop-ass on old Seixon!!!!
Except for the inconvenient little fact that he corroborated what I was saying…-Seixon
Not at all. Chris had it right. You got a severe spanking!
July 11th, 2006 at 7:23 am[...] As much as White House Press Secretary Tony Snow would like people to believe that all problems are somehow the fault of the Clinton Administration, they just can’t seem to get away from the ever-growing list of problems that Dubya and his Miscreant Brigade are directly responsible for. El WaPo’s Dana Priest, who got major Nicho-points for recently slapping Bill Bennett on Meet the Press, has a decent column today which sums up the current laundry list of Bush-created problems and what congress is finally going to address after five years of playing political shell games. Congress, meanwhile, has signaled that it intends to play a major role in shaping the government’s response to the court ruling. Today, the Senate Judiciary Committee will begin debating new legislation for trying detainees at Guantanamo Bay. Tomorrow and Thursday, the House and Senate Armed Services committees will begin considering their own proposals. Those two committees pushed through legislation late last year to bring prisoner interrogation rules in compliance with U.S. military and international law. [...]
July 11th, 2006 at 10:27 amDrSinker,
Sure you were. Heckofa point there!
I said, “Funny how that worked out.” You can twist that and dance all you want, but you can’t run away from the facts I presented.
Nice try at spin, but that’s not the deal. Read Suskind’s book. “Working with Iranâ€.. are you serious? This administration?!?!
Where did I say “with”? I said “on”. Can you read buddy?
Not at all. Chris had it right. You got a severe spanking!
Mhm, except for where I pointed out that Clinton didn’t do shit about the AQ Khan network, the North Koreans fooled him like a naive sucker while building a uranium program, and the reason why the Bush administration didn’t spout off like the New York Times about the Khan network was because they were still working an intelligence operation against Libya.
What did you have as a response? Not much, other than try to twist my words and pretend I made arguments I haven’t made. Bravo!
July 11th, 2006 at 10:31 amI said, “Funny how that worked out.†You can twist that and dance all you want, but you can’t run away from the facts I presented.-Seixon
I don’t have to twist anything to show that you basically had no point – you’ve said so yourself. One came after the other is the only point you had – big deal.
The reason why the Bush administration didn’t spout off like the New York Times about the Khan network was because they were still working an intelligence operation against Libya.-Seixon
Simply not the case. Suskind’s book shows that they had the goods on Libya *before* the invasion of Iraq. Apparently you’re the one who can’t read, because that’s precisely what Sullivan was pointing out.
And yeah, this admin has worked “on” Iran alright. Heckofa job there too!
July 11th, 2006 at 11:07 amDrSinker taking Seixon to the woodshed for a beating again! Wow!
July 11th, 2006 at 11:14 amIs it just me or does it look like Tony Snow has electrodes or something irritating him?
July 11th, 2006 at 11:25 amDrSinker,
I don’t have to twist anything to show that you basically had no point – you’ve said so yourself. One came after the other is the only point you had – big deal.
That wasn’t even the point. The point was that they were still working on Libya, thus providing a good reason not to go around blabbing about it. Whether or not Gaddafi did what he did because of the Iraq war is something only he knows. Suskind doesn’t know, neither do you.
Simply not the case. Suskind’s book shows that they had the goods on Libya *before* the invasion of Iraq. Apparently you’re the one who can’t read, because that’s precisely what Sullivan was pointing out.
So will you explain why Libya didn’t give everything up until late 2003? Was it because they were still working with Libya over that entire time? Yes, it was. They got the goods on Libya due to revealing the AQ Khan network, but that doesn’t mean they instantly had Libya giving up their WMD programs. As you and Suskind pointed out, it took months and months to work with Libya to give it up, which finally happened towards the end of 2003.
All of this is of course a complete tangent to the real point here, that the Bush administration wrapped up the AQ Khan network that the Clintons didn’t even do anything about, busted North Korea for cheating on the Agreed Framework which the Clintons also didn’t know about, and enacted policies such as the Proliferation Security Initiative to prevent North Korea from peddling weapons.
North Korea expanded their nuclear weapons program under Clinton, which they utilized during the Bush administration. Only Clinton shills like Judd would pretend otherwise.
July 11th, 2006 at 12:28 pmSo will you explain why Libya didn’t give everything up until late 2003? Was it because they were still working with Libya over that entire time? Yes, it was.-Seixon
Like I said, read the book and get back to me on that one.
All of this is of course a complete tangent to the real point here, that the Bush administration wrapped up the AQ Khan network that the Clintons didn’t even do anything about-Seixon
When did the US find out about the Khan network? Sort of tough for Clinton to do something with intelligence that wasn’t available yet, no?
The bottom line is that neither admin has been very successful handling NK. They’ve duped Bush as much as Clinton, crossing just about every line and deal the admins put together.
July 11th, 2006 at 12:45 pmNorth Korea expanded their nuclear weapons program under Clinton, which they utilized during the Bush administration.
That’s funny…the Security Advisory Group seems to think otherwise, but of course, some guy living in Norway is much better informed…
July 11th, 2006 at 12:50 pmWhenever Repblicans are accused of not doing something they always fall back to the position that someone else didn’t do something too… Most two year olds behave this way… psst… Clinton hasn’t been President for 5, count em, years ya Donkeys. DubYa has ingored the problem with North Korea for far too long and now he’s taking it in the Ass.
Clinton may have lied about a bj but no one died because of it, DubYa lied about the reasons to go into Iraq and now ove 2,500 men and women are DEAD and thousands wounded and maimed for life, for what? Our not even half smart President is going to lose his rubber stamp Congress this fall and it’s scaring the hell out of him.
July 11th, 2006 at 12:53 pmEarly in this thread, I asked Judd to be so kind as to provide sources for his “unbiased” claim, “…the Clinton administration’s strategy, objectively, has been the most successful.” And then we have Team Clinton providing the stats. Too funny!! (Judd, I realize you have a heavy workload and such a request was inconvenient.)
My only suggestion to the moonbats who frequent this place and other lefty/socialist/envy sites is to widen your horizons. The name of the game here is, “WE Hate GWB – and ALL conservatives should be sterilized”. Such good little prog conformists – now there’s a paradox.
July 11th, 2006 at 12:59 pmchris,
They’ve duped Bush as much as Clinton, crossing just about every line and deal the admins put together.
Name a single way Bush has been duped by NoKo. See, the Bush administration never set themselves up to get duped. They never engaged in faux diplomacy to appease Kim Jong Il.
TripMaster,
That’s funny…the Security Advisory Group seems to think otherwise, but of course, some guy living in Norway is much better informed…
You mean the Former Clinton Administration Officials Group? LOL.
Wow, the Clinton administration writing a report that says the Clinton administration was better than the Bush administration. Who would have thought?!
LOL.
July 11th, 2006 at 3:59 pmTo the moderator: You pulled my post about Anne Coulter being renamed pus crack when it was intended only to be humorous. And it was. Why on Earth though would you leave a post like 205 right above this which is not about this thread or any other unless you think it’s actually worthy and a joke about Anne (PC) Coulter isn’t. Please explain.
July 11th, 2006 at 4:26 pmName a single way Bush has been duped by NoKo. See, the Bush administration never set themselves up to get duped. They never engaged in faux diplomacy to appease Kim Jong Il.-Seixon
I guess you don’t read posts on your own blog.
What were you saying? I suppose you’ll say they knew they were going to launch the missles all along? Why would they enter the six-party talks if they knew missles were going to follow? Could it be they got duped?
July 11th, 2006 at 4:45 pmDear Mr. Evil – Judd is very busy today but you should know your joke was about Ann Coulter was as entertaining as inviting someone to go watch a public disembowelment. Your “humour” is crude and coarse. Personally, I appreciate having your gross “jokes” in the public domain – conservatives point to you, big fat Papa, and the whacko “Psych Prof” Deb Frisch to demonstrate the intolerance of the LEFT. (But for all of my political disagreements with Judd and fellow TP’ers, he does have sense of decency which reflects well on his mother.)
July 11th, 2006 at 5:34 pmsexion can’t comment that often,
he’s busy giving his buddy a wedgie.
oh… if we all could just go back to fifth grade and be imbeciles and pretend bullies until mom get home.
July 11th, 2006 at 9:47 pmWhen you refer to a country as part of an axis of evil, you better be prepared to back that shit up and blow the hell out of them. Or else you can just sit back and suffer the consequences of such tough talk.
July 12th, 2006 at 2:28 am[...] #1 Last week Tony Snow belittled the Clinton approach, diplomacy, as a failed and ineffective means of dealing with North Korea. (Just for fun, let’s look at the record: 1. George H. W. Bush: one to two bombs’ worth of plutonium 2. Bill Clinton: zero plutonium 3. George W. Bush: 4-6 nuclear weapons’ worth of plutonium) [...]
July 14th, 2006 at 1:56 pmYeah lets do what Clinton did again, heres some free stuff and oh by the way you don’t have to prove your holding up your end of the deal for 10 years because by then I won’t be president anymore.
I also like how you only talk about plutonium and not uranium. Also lets look at how many reactors were acquired under what administrations.
Clinton 3 (2 gave to Kim by Clinton and Carter)
Bush 0
I wonder how he made all this stuff under the Bush administration? Maybe it was with the 2 Clinton reactors? Nah that couldn’t be it.
October 9th, 2006 at 4:15 pmlets not forget the nuclear reactor! Clinton gave North Korea and all the money he gave them. North Korea would not have nukes if not for Bush AND clinton
October 11th, 2006 at 3:19 amOf course “Keating Five” McCain’s a big fat fraud. Always has been, always will be. If he had any actual guts, he would have left the GOP after Bush sicced Pat Robertson on him in South Carolina in the 2000 GOP primaries.
October 11th, 2006 at 9:08 amTo review:
When George H. W. Bush was in the White House, North Korea was actively seeking to build nukes and had one to two bombs’ worth of plutonium on hand.
When Bill Clinton was in the White House, he used offers of economic aid — offers that the Republican Congress fought tooth and nail — to convince the North Koreans to suspend their nuclear program and get rid of their plutonium stocks.
When George W. Bush entered the White House, his tough talk and general obnoxiousness caused the North Koreans to reactivate their nuclear program — and now they have four to six nuclear weapons’ worth of plutonium. (The invasion of Iraq was an object lesson to states like North Korea: If you have oil and no nukes, Bush will invade you. If you have nukes and no oil, Bush leaves you alone.)
October 11th, 2006 at 9:09 amBilateral talks are not the answer, military action is. You people are accusing Bush of playing the blame game but you are playing the WE HATE BUSH game. Lets be honest, the autographed basketballs and light water reactors of the Clinton years did nothing to improve the current situation.
October 12th, 2006 at 3:41 pmI love listening to the looney tunes of the left. Are you really as stupid as to believe that nothing happened with North Korea’s nuclear program while Clinton was in office?
WE WERE NOT WATCHING! That was the whole point. We did not remove anything, we GAVE THEM MORE NUCLEAR MATERIALS, and Clinton’s own investigations late in ‘99 indicated that North Korea cheated on the deal from the time the ink hit the page. Clinton claimed to have drawn up a plan to attack North Korea because of the violations.
What planet do you kooks live on? You don’t even know the words and actions of the people who’s side you are on, let alone your enemies. You create this parallel reality full of lies, and you wonder why nobody takes you seriously?
Bush has no plan, or is doing nothing? No … his policy is actually taking the *real* hard path … trying to figure out a way to force the people that have leverage over North Korea to do something.
Your fundamental flaw in logic (OK, I’m being generous … not much that qualifies as logic on this page) … is that we have some type of leverage over the shrimp in the funny suit. We have no leverage, never did … in fact, in the circles these dictators hang out in, Kim Jong Il scores points among his little club of tyrants for making Clinton (i.e. the US) look like an ass. Clinton/Carter/Albright had no problem playing the part of the ass.
In fact, if Bush WAS the murderous, fascist tyrant that you make him out to be, Il would not stand up to him because frankly we could remove that wart in fractions of a second. It is exactly because Il knows we are not doing what you fringe loons say that the tin-pot commie pug can throw his tantrums to get attention.
One other little detail. Saying that the Clinton policy failed is not blaming Clinton … it is simply a statement of fact … North Korea cheated on the agreement. Period. Blame is a waste of time, but doing the same thing over again and expecting a different result is STUPID (i.e. liberal).
October 13th, 2006 at 3:34 am[...] to:Think Progress �- White House Accuses Clinton of Sending Flowers and Chocolates To Kim Jong-il July 10th, [...]
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