The rising violence in the Middle East has apparently caused the editorial board at the Wall Street Journal to rethink its understanding of the war in Iraq. They write today:
Critics of the Bush Administration will surely find a way to blame it for the current crisis, on the theory that this is what happens when you push for change in the Middle East. But the real problem is the growing perception among Arab regimes and terrorist frontmen that the U.S. is so bogged down in Iraq, and so suddenly deferential to the wishes of the “international community,” that it has lost its appetite for serious reform. This has created openings for the kind of terror assaults on American allies we are now witnessing.
Despite trying to cast their stance as one that “critics of the Bush Administration†would dispute, the position that the WSJ editors take today is one that “critics†have been arguing for some time. American Progress’s Iraq strategy, Strategic Redeployment 2.0, explicitly states that, “As long as the United States is bogged down in Iraq and refuses to admit the thousands of mistakes it has made, it will not have the moral, political, and military power to deal effectively†with the threats it faces.
Sen. Chuck Hagel argued in Aug. 2005, “I think our involvement there has destabilized the Middle East. And the longer we stay there, I think the further destabilization will occur,†adding, “We are locked into a bogged-down problem not unsimilar or dissimilar to where we were in Vietnam.â€
But the idea that the U.S. was “bogged down” in Iraq – which the WSJ now appears to embrace – has been repeatedly blasted by their editorial page. For example:
The political class and media treat the war as something whose “policy” details can somehow be revisited, even rethought. At home, the war is a political event, a normal partisan phenomenon. Its metaphors are borne out of Vietnam — quagmire, bogged down, body counts, Ted Kennedy. Guess what? Vietnam isn’t coming back. The people of this country tore the nation’s fabric terribly over Vietnam. They are not going to do it again. [Daniel Henninger, WSJ, 4/30/04]
Being “bogged down†in Iraq has had damaging consequences in the Middle East due to the disastrous choices the administration made. The WSJ finally seems to understand that. Better late than never.
Bogged down?
July 14th, 2006 at 12:22 pmThe mission has been accomplished since May 1,2003.
Something tells me the WSJ reporters walked over to the WSJ editorial offices and took out their whoop-ass stenos.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:23 pmNo one has ever accused the Bush administration of being ” the best and the brightest”, yet, they still are so arrogant, brazen, and delusional they have embroiled us in a Q-U-A-G-M-I-R-E.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:23 pmCould someone please tell me what the “terror assaults on American allies” are? Does this refer to recent attacks on Israel? Why are those considered terror attacks, but Israeli bombing of suburban neighborhoods is not?
July 14th, 2006 at 12:24 pmBush is a heinous imbecile who is destroying the entire world by his ignorance! He must resign or be impeached ASAP!
July 14th, 2006 at 12:24 pmBy the way, the WSJ is repeating what Sen. Joe Biden said on ‘Hardball’ yesterday.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:24 pmWSJ is pretty sly on this one. They say that the perception of a ”bogged down” sitauation is an Arab one. According to that Wacky Group on the Fox Morning Show things are going great in Iraq.
So, who to believe….the people that are actually there or that fun loving Wacky Group at Fox.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:26 pmThis has created openings for the kind of terror assaults on American allies we are now witnessing.
Yes…Israel’s enemies capture a few soldiers and offer to exchange them for prisoners Israel is holding.
These are particularly horrifying ‘terror assaults’, aren’t they?
Again, here’s some facts about what has really been going on over there…educate yourselves.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:27 pmI think it is correct to state that muslim nations in the middle east, as well as muslim infiltrators in Africa, believe they have an opportunity to make gains in their respective conflicts, since the US is “busy” with Iraq. I do believe that the US will not be able to actively take on any other conflicts around the world, not because would couldn’t do it, but because the current politics in the US would prohibit us from doing anything prior to the midterm elections.
Fortunately, Israel can protect itself, and only needs justification to attack neighbors it could easily defeat. Israel is the attack dog we keep on a short lease. If you swing a stick at that dog, we will unleash the dog and call for it later when it’s done chewing the bones.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:31 pmhee hee - must see picture
Get Me out of Here!
Crying game: we’re not sure who’s more upset.
It was supposed to be a light-hearted photo opportunity showing the gentle side of the world’s most powerful man.
Unfortunately, nobody told the baby.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:39 pmRe-read their comment: “But the real problem is the growing perception among Arab regimes and terrorist frontmen that the U.S. is so bogged down in Iraq,”
The problem is the PERCEPTION of being bogged down. The WSJ isn’t making a statement about whether the perception is accurate or not — in fact, it seems conspicuously silent on the subject.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:41 pmBush’s Indifference Drives Conflict
July 14th, 2006 at 12:44 pmby Simon Tisdall
I doubt very seriously that Arab regimes and terrorist frontmen really give a shit about the American involvement in Iraq as it relates to their agenda.
WSJ can’t be taken at face value.
Biden is a wierdo.
It’s that simple.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:44 pmCritics [Bystanders] of the Bush [incompetent] Administration will [don’t have to] surely find a way to blame it [who else is to blame?] for the current crisis [Freedom Operation] on the theory [It’s no theory that bush started this] that this is what happens [Duhhh] when you push for change in the Middle East. But the real problem [the “real” theory] is the growing perception [we think] among Arab regimes and terrorist frontmen that the U.S. is so bogged down in Iraq [we think]
July 14th, 2006 at 12:45 pmThe White House can’t be taken at face value.
bush is a wierdo.
It’s that simple.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:47 pmI doubt very seriously that the Bush regimes and terrorist frontmen really give a shit about the American involvement in Iraq as it relates to their war monger armageddon end times wacko crazy insane hitleresque agenda.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:49 pmNino at #1: The mission has been accomplished since May 1,2003.
Contrary to popular opinion, “Mission Accomplished” didn’t mean the war in Iraq had been won. It meant Bush’s handlers had finally managed to pose him in flight suit and codpiece for a major photo op.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:50 pmThis is the latest attempt by progs to bash Bush. By saying the Middle East is a mess.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:51 pmPretty weak. At start, though, I guess.
I wonder what type of world this would be after WWII if we had told the French to get out of Vietnam and did not let the european zionists to human traffic their asses into the middle of arab land… No more USSR, no Israel causing trouble with the ME, and no stain of Vietnam on Americas past… What would be left? India/Pakistan, China/Taiwan, and maybe North/South Korea … though if we had handled that one differently after WWII the north may not have turned to the communists for help… but even with the Korean problem this world would be alot more stable.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:51 pmI’m just waiting for the inevitable attacks of Israel on Syria and possibly Iran so that the US can “justify” using their “conventional” nuclear weapons on targets already picked out on Iran. The neocons have been waiting for this since they entered into office in 01/2001.
July 14th, 2006 at 12:56 pmThis is the latest attempt by progs to bash Bush. By saying the Middle East is a mess.
Israel’s assault on Lebanon, following Hizbullah’s cross-border raid on Wednesday and weeks of unremitting bloodshed in Gaza, brought demands yesterday for international action to contain the crisis and mediate an end to the fighting. But the US, with its unmatched influence over Israel and as self-appointed guardian of the Middle East peace process, appeared reluctant to intervene.
Lebanon’s appeal for the UN security council to step in is supported by most Arab governments and by France, Lebanon’s former colonial master and the current security council president.
Armed supporters of Iraqi cleric Moqtada al-Sadr stand behind a makeshift Lebanese flag in Baghdad’s Sadr City. Iraqis from both sides of the country’s sectarian divide have condemned Israel’s attacks on Lebanon and Gaza.(AFP/Wissam Al-Okaili)
But the council has been vainly trying for a fortnight to agree a resolution on Gaza, with the US threatening to use its veto in defence of Israel. A consensus on the more complicated, fast-moving crisis now engulfing Lebanon is thus unlikely.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:01 pmThe real problem in the Middle East is Israeli .
Why? :
1. They continue to have their way with palestinians, killing civilians and destroying homes, which makes Arabs and Muslims furious.
2. They have 200+ nukes, which makes Iran, and other countries in the Middle East seek a WMD deterent to the Israeli weapons.
3. We have a Bible belt nut for president, who believes in the bullshit story of how all jews must return to Israel, before the second comming of Jebus. So he gives Israel a blank check to do whatever, and gives them 10 Billion a year.
4.Arab and Muslim teenagers get frustrated at the U.S. double standard and decide to do something about it, like join Alqaeda.
5. Palestinian men frustrated by the fact that they can’t leave their towns to find jobs or education, due to the Israeli roadblocks, decide to commit suicide to end their miserable existance, and take some Israeli with them.
So, what’s the solution???
Israel must end the occupation and give Palestinians a state defined by the 1967 borders, and the US must pressure them to do so. Otherwise, expect to keep sending soldiers to Iraq, and get ready to start paying $5.00 a gallon.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:02 pm#10; Priceless. LOL.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:02 pmThe fact will always remain that Israel was born through terrorism.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:05 pmFreedom on the march has been unexpectadly slowed by the number bodies freedom has to march over. To say the US is bogged down is stating the obvious. I wonder what the Rumsfeld plan for unbogging Iraq is going to be? Nuke Iran?
July 14th, 2006 at 1:06 pmlet the perception be just that, perception… OBL perceived us to be weak as well…
he kicked over the ant pile…. it has always existed and it is now time to do something about it… the heads of the palestinian governement don’t want peace… they want the death of all jews in arab land… plain and simple…. they love death more than jews love life… it’s their MOTO…. between them and hezbollah… the moment the jews moved out of gaza… did the palastenians look to establish homes, schools, infrastructure? no… they began lobbing missles… they had 90 plus % of what they wanted before clinton left…. arafat through it out…. they want death….
hezbollah kidnapping soldiers… a minority group in a governemnt with an army…
and we shouldn’t hold lebenon repsonsible?
imagine a militia shooting at mexicans and our government stood and did nothing? what would be the outcry… they attacked soldiers in their own lands… it is an act of war…
israel’s lively hood is under fire… if someone threatened and repeatedly attacked my family safety…. i am bringing a gun to a knife fight… to let them know there will be no appeasement. I pray for Israel and those with a skewed sense of morality…
July 14th, 2006 at 1:07 pmas i watch the UN sit and watch in all their morally relative glory, trying to condemn Israel when hezbollah was to be disarmed by the Lebonese under UN resolutions…
Israel isn’t going anywhere.
The only tools you have to fight the injustice is to call the Democrats out for their hypocricy for supporting Israel whilst condemning Bush foreign policy.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:10 pmThis is a surprise, coming from WSJ and all. While those neo-cons may be politically arrogant, they’re not stupid, and have finally observed the obvious. The explosion of violence in the Middle East is a direct result of the Bush administration’s folly in Iraq.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog.php
July 14th, 2006 at 1:14 pmJohn Gibson - “Iran is attacking Israel, but it is really attacking us”.
The right bangs the Iran war drums.
Find it at SSA Blog
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog.php
Comment by joneser — July 14, 2006 @ 1:07 pm
Ok, joneser. Tomorrow some tough friends and I will stop at your place, will take the kitchen, bathroom and living room for us. And if you get violent, well, my God told me that your house is my place. Sorry.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:15 pmIsrael wasn’t born through terrorism. It was born through Zionism. Prior to that Jews and Christians lived peacefully in Palestine.
Those days are gone forever.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:15 pmPost 26 > Suppose a Mexican drug lord ambushed a group of our Border patrol agents, killing a couple and kidnapping a couple of them, so would it be justified for the United States to attack and bomb the entire population of Mexico? NO it would NOT be justified to do that, but taking out the drug lord would be appropriate action! Israel has declared war on Lebanon for the acts of a small group of thugs! Israel is out of control and their actions must be condemned!
July 14th, 2006 at 1:17 pmZionism = TERRORISM
July 14th, 2006 at 1:20 pmComment by LCLiberal,
I really don’t think conservative media discusses anything that the Bush gov’t. would not approve.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:20 pm#30 - er ever hear of the Isaac Stern Gang? sorry israel was born from terrorism - the terrorists won.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:25 pmThe neo cons believe military force must be used to solve international problems. Don’t expect bushco to apply any pressure to reduce conflict. It feeds too many of their needs and keeps arms dealers happy. . . . which keeps stockholders like cheney happy!
July 14th, 2006 at 1:26 pmmadashell,
That’s fine, madashell. But you’re going to have a hard time explaining that to aunt Betty at Sunday service.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:26 pmFolks, I know one guy that is rubbing his hands together in ecstasy: Robert J. Stevens, President and CEO of Lockheed Martin.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:28 pmanyone wondering where zionism originated? - from a couple of russian jews in the 19th century.
July 14th, 2006 at 1:38 pmWe need to do a few things to get this under wraps.
1) Tell Israel to stop their attacks or face losing US money and support.
2) Tell Syria, Palestine, and Lebanon to get rid of ALL terrorists within 6 months or we will militarily remove them from their countries.
3) Tell Iran to stop all nuke stuff within 30 days or we will remove it for them.
4) Demand the UN get off there ass and help us rid all these countries of terrorists. Demand this from the UN or tell them they risk losing on financial funding from the US as well as any further involvement from the US in the UN. It is time that the UN steps up and actually controls these terrorists or it is time that the UN siezes to exist. If they cannot protect the world from Terrorist then there is really no point for a UN (or at least a secuirty council).
Everyone always talks about getting the UN involved. I am all for it, but they better actually get involved. To simply go talk to the UN and have them issue a letter saying “we don’t like what your doing” simply will not cut it. They either put troops on the ground to stop this war or there needs to stop being a UN.
So, to the UN:
If you don’t want the USA to handle these problems ourselves, start handling these problems. Stop talking and start doing. Get troops in these middle east countries right now and remove all the terrorists. Get troops in Israel to both stop Israel from attacking its neighbors and to defend it from terrorists. Stop “demanding” that Iran stop its nuke program and get into IRAN and physically stop it right now.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:03 pmHe’s baaaaack
July 14th, 2006 at 2:14 pmRuth
Wouldn’t work. It would basically turn into WWIII before too long, and America does not have the money to deal with it. Without the rest of the world’s good will, America is broke.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:25 pmPost 31 - using your analogue, the drug dealers are part of the government of Mexico and have made these raids several times a month. Now your drug dealers are also part of the Mexican government. They hide intermixed in the cities and put military outposts next to civilian centers. The drug dealers are also taking action orders from Quebec. Your analogue doesn’t work
July 14th, 2006 at 2:25 pmRuth said
We and what army??? the one bogged down in Iraq
Also, speek for yourself……..I don’t subscribe to your cowboy mentality, and nor should Amercians. This regiem change, pre-emptive, my way of the highway mentality is wrong and most americans don’t agree with you, thanks to Iraq
July 14th, 2006 at 2:28 pmthe real problem is the growing perception among Arab regimes and terrorist frontmen that the U.S. is so bogged down in Iraq
Which is precisely what Osama said he wanted. Bush is bin Laden’s bitch.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:29 pm.
#39 Ruth: first, the UN isn’t your personnal tool. And second, if you want the UN perform the military desires of your only country, you must fund and support the UN having an army equivalent to the one of your country, not the other way around. And using the UN as an excuse to the rest of the world funding your wars is over. But I guess if the message hasn’t reached you in the last 5 years, never will.
And about the poster “America”. Wasn’t in effect a TP policy of not letting posters paste whole articles??
July 14th, 2006 at 2:29 pmI think it’s very interesting that not only does our ancient ally Israel not expect our help but they’ve reportedly told Condi Rice to “back off.” Perhaps they know that we’re not bogged down in Iraq and know that they can’t count on us.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:33 pm#49 Another very important fact to add is that Saddam had LIED to the UN inspectors and the world when he said that he had destroyed ALL his Chemical Weapons and other WMD. It does not matter whether these weapons were produced before or after 1991, his job was to destroy it ALL and not hide anything not a one ounce of these WMD, he DID NOT.
Comment by America — July 14, 2006 @ 2:30 pm
Talking about international laws disobeyed by countries: USA has been found disobeying the Geneva Conventions, has ignored the treaties for nuclear disarmement, has refused signing the ICC, has retreated from Kyoto…
…and has the larger stock of WMD of the world.
Again, who is the most dangerous country in the world?
July 14th, 2006 at 2:35 pm#51 Comment by America — July 14, 2006 @ 2:35 pm
Great, now disingenious boy has discovered bold type.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:37 pmYUKK, Looks like some troll stepped in a big stinky pile and is tracking it all through this thread.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:39 pmAmerica go home and just stay there -your foreign policy disgusts the rest of the world
July 14th, 2006 at 2:42 pmchopper
Pretty much. This is the propaganda of the right, and judging by the speed he is putting it up at, he is copying it in order to drown any rational discussion.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:46 pmAmerica
Are you quite done yet?
July 14th, 2006 at 2:50 pmApparently not. You do realise that we have dealt with all of this before don’t you?
July 14th, 2006 at 2:51 pm31 jay
hezbollah isn’t a small group of thugs… they are members in the lebanese parliament… as and armed party… a party that was told by the UN to be disaarmed and lebenon did nothing. A party that is a puppet of Iran and Syria….
maybe i should have done better with the anaolgy… oh i know… the green party..
israel has been hitting bridges, airports, fuel depots… etc.. the infrastructure that allows hezbollah and hamas to attack them… not say… hmmm walking into cafes and blowing up innocent people… or killing children in schools… blowing up chuches and synogogues (sp)…. they shot at israel’s 3 largest city for what? what strategic importance short of killing jews? and yes innocents have been killed by israel on the otherside… but the people they are after hide in homes… what is your solution….?
does israel fight and shoot and kill from their from porch? no.
to think that israel doesn’t want to live life everyday and go about their business is ridiculous… why would anyone want to live in the desolate land that they do? They turned it into an oasis… what have the surrounding arab countries done with theirs? They are pillars of oppression. Muslims vote in israel for god sake where does the reciprocal happen?
As I said before… their moto is the destruction of israel… they love death more than israel and the jews love life….
end the moral relativism…. get a compass
and as someone said I believe it was Dennis Prager… you need to stop elevating “peace” (ie appeasement) over goodness.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:51 pm#48, The UN biggest backer is the USA, thus we should have the very most say. The UN was created to stablize places that were in caos. It was created to bring the world together to fight people, groups, and countries that were against world peace. If the UN is not going to actually perform this roll, why have a UN?
Iran, Syria, Lebanon, Israel, and North Korea are all not promoting world peace right now as well as a handful of African countries. The UN doesn’t want to do a thing about it other then talk. I just don’t understand why the USA pays 25%+ of the UN tab and also provides most all the troops for anything it wants (yet it rarely uses them anyways).
So, the UN either needs to step or go away. At least the UN should get back to promoting world peace and stop letting these rogue countries destroy it by harboring terrorists.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:51 pmYou know what’s great about America’s posting? No one reads them, they just skip over the long, bloviated pastes. Nice try, tho.
July 14th, 2006 at 2:52 pmNote to TP. The poster America is bush’s bitch . Time to bitch slap america and send it back to red state……Those of us that have good scroling skill will continue to pass over all the drivel…….
July 14th, 2006 at 2:56 pmRuth
The UN’s primary mission is diplomatic, so that they tend to be a lot of talk shouldn’t exactly come as a shock. That said, the UN being a mouthpiece of the the US is one of the things which actually weakens its stance in world affairs.
The rest of your suggestions, should they ever get used, would result in a instant war with the entire middle east, a war which you could ill afford. Further, Israel would not limit its ability to defend itself until peace could be established with its neighbours - they wouldn’t stop building nukes and would sacrifice their alliance with America before doing so. Those nukes are their best deterent against another war with the entire Arabic world.
In short, it just wouldn’t work.
July 14th, 2006 at 3:00 pmCould somebody just delete America and his posts? That junk is just cluttering up the thread, and it isn’t even really on topic. Its a bunch of BS he is probably cutting and pasting from some sort of highly annoying scrap-book.
July 14th, 2006 at 3:02 pm“Hey look mom, I can CUT and PASTE!”- America
July 14th, 2006 at 3:04 pmWhat is sad is that “America” can’t understand what it’s pasting so quickly, for sure…
July 14th, 2006 at 3:06 pmI’m guessing that “America” person likes to pretend he’s filibustering on the floor of the Senate.
July 14th, 2006 at 3:12 pmI see that America guy has done his duty for Karl Rove today, by clogging this thread up with crap! He gets paid to stuff the TP threads with pro Bush baloney articles!
July 14th, 2006 at 3:19 pmPlease “America” just put up a link. Don’t cut a paste whole articles. It annoys everyone, including but not limited to people that may agree with you. IT IS REALLY ANNOYING, REALLY REALLY ANNOYING. Thank you for your indulgence.
July 14th, 2006 at 3:21 pmI just contacted Judd about America troll!
July 14th, 2006 at 3:21 pmDo you think America would read the piles and piles and piles of books and articles that refute his cut and pastes?
July 14th, 2006 at 3:21 pmMaster Chief
You are assuming he is trying to make a point. Note that all he is doing is repeatedly reposting old propaganda pieces (which have long since been discredited) he isn’t actually posting anything real.
July 14th, 2006 at 3:24 pmWell, once again the left has gone back to their failed playbook of blaming Israel and Bush for every problem in the middle east. The fascist left just can’t hide their anti-semitism and support of islamofascists, such as Hamas and Hezbollah.
July 14th, 2006 at 4:00 pm#85 Rick, when Reagan pulled out of Lebanon was that showing support for Hezbollah? When GHWB decided not to go into Iraq and get Sadam was he showing support for the Shia or Sunni? Don’t bunch the left into your conveinent little ragdoll to kick around. Ideas can be discussed here without fear of not following in lock step to the “official” mantra. The middle east is a powder keg. Israel did us no favors in blowing up the airport. This thing has the potential of pulling us into the next crusade and I, for one, don’t like the idea.
July 14th, 2006 at 4:13 pmIt is so inane that any criticism of israel means you are anti-semite.
Let me get this straight, right now. I am NO anti-semite. But I know the history of Israel, and it is NOT pretty,
July 14th, 2006 at 4:21 pmIsrael did not exist until AFTER WWII… there was NO Israel for the past 2000 years until after WWII. Europeans moving to the middle easy and calling themselves Israelis and claiming they had the right because of a book they wrote thousands of years ago is what has caused all this BS. Germany murdered the Jews… The Jews should have been given half of Germany or they should have all moved to the USA were they would be protected. Instead their religious nut wing zionists wanted to cause trouble just like Americas religious nut wing. Either Israel needs to get its religious nuts under control and out of those settlements or they need to get OUT of the middle east all together.
With that said…. the muslim religious nut wing just loves fighting with the zionists. They wont let the palastinians have peace with the Israelis and shame them into fighting instead of looking for peace. The prejudiced muslims supported the Nazis in WWII and helped kill Jews in eastern europe and in Russia. After the holocaust they could have shown their hospitality and honor that the Saudi royals always talk about and welcomed the Jews and even made an alliance with them. Instead they refused to accept the poor people that had barely survived the nazis. Once Hamas got into government they had 2 choices… change their charter and accept Israel and work towards peace or officially fight a war instead of relying on terrorism. They chose war by attacking and abducting israeli soldiers… which was not an act of terrorism but war. Then they were getting stomped in this war mode with israel and so got Hezbollah to relieve the pressure by attacking israel from the north which once again was not terrorism but an act of aggression (war).
Israel had no right to exist in the first place and they had no right treating the arabs there as they did. But once they did exist and the arabs choose war instead of seeking peace then they are going to get war. And if they lose … well losing wars suck for the loser. And in the end nothing will be any better for the palastinians who have had to bear the weight of missery from both sides.
And where in all of this is that great becon of light up on the hill? America? Acting as the enlightened wise one that leads the world into the future of reasoned humanity? Is it taking the middle way and calling the Israelis and the Arabs out for BOTH of their transgressions? Nope… always blindly siding with Israel because Americas death cult wants to see Israel be destroyed so the second coming can happen…. enlightened? No… the statue of libertys light does not shine on the middle east. There is a BIG FAT ROMAN WRITTEN BIBLE IN THE WAY OF THE LIGHT.
July 14th, 2006 at 4:42 pmComment by America
The zionists brought in on themselves…
And the arabs continue to do so also….
Your one sided point of view is ignorance.
July 14th, 2006 at 4:50 pmComment by America
The only WMDs Saddam had were the ones we helped him get which he then used on the Iranians… it isnt too hard to see why Iran might hate America now is it? Maybe we should try NOT putting puppet governments in place instead of letting people lead their own lives? Maybe America should not be helping people gas other countries? Christianity for these types of people is a slogon only … no more genuine than a company slogon… Jesus … he is just a mascot to people like you …
July 14th, 2006 at 4:54 pmComment by America
The mayor of San Fransisco or was it San Diego? in the late 1800s was qouted to have said that there was a war of annilation going on and soon there would be no more American Indians so that they could have the gold in the black hills and other Indian resources… no one has to make this stuff up … it happened… and if America cannot own up to it and do better then we are no better than the Nazis… and people like you have always been the ones soiling Americas dream.
July 14th, 2006 at 4:57 pmComment by America
America is not the worlds police. We didnt ask the Iraqis to free us from England and so they should want freedom and peace enough to obtain it also. Waring in the name of peace is a lie as shown over and over by the likes of Roman and Bush.
Jesus never said to make people be good at the point of a sword… he said to set the example. Let them see you and want to be what you are. Your misguided ways are antiChrist and unAmerican… and labeling yourself “America” or wearing a cross necklace or putting a Jesus doll on your dashboard does not makes you any less so.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:01 pmGerald Gibson
Good post. At this point the fact is that what was done after WWII cannot be undone, years of suffering, murder and war have more then proven it cannot be undone. The pragmatic approach needs to be taken, Israel is a fact, it is a nation that has proven itself more then willing to survive, and it has shown its capability to do just that.
The Arabs need to stop holding their grudges so close to their chests, and the Israelis need to be shown that peace is possible. Israel doesn’t want war, but parties like Hamas and Hezbollah do, and those parties need to become somewhat less popular if there is to be peace. If the Arabs want peace, it is time for them to make the peace offering, because so far it looks to me like it has always been a case of Israel being the country the world demands compromises from.
If Lebanon wants peace, it must hand over those soldiers, and the men who kidnapped them. It is time for BOTH sides to demonstrate a will for peace.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:02 pmComment by America
Do you support the Israel attack on the American navy ship the USS Liberty and the murder of the American sailors on it?
http://www.ussliberty.org/
July 14th, 2006 at 5:07 pmAmerica
Blah, blah, blah. Blah blablablah blah. Blah. Your diarrhoea of the paste more then makes it clear what you are trying to do. Sod off, if you want to argue fine, but don’t drown the threads.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:07 pmComment by America
http://www.youtube.com/ watch?v=fAoe26MaTew&search=fox%20news
And what do you think about the Israeli connection to 911?
July 14th, 2006 at 5:11 pmTypical response from the lunatic left when confronted with cold hard facts that dispute their crazy conspiracy theories.
Comment by America
You didnt give any facts. And your the one with the conspiracy theories.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:11 pmZionists burn bible is Israel at schools in front of the school children… what do you think about that?
July 14th, 2006 at 5:13 pmThose videos are real nice… but you know what Capone was loved by alot of people he gave money to in Chicago also… it does not negate the murders he commited.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:14 pmOk one more time …
Zionists burn bibles in Israel at schools in front of the school children… what do you think about that?
July 14th, 2006 at 5:15 pmAmerica
Actually, you haven’t posted any facts. You have posted a lot of opinions in the hopes of drowning out all opposition, but later evidence has long since shown those opinions to be wrong. Clinton’s statement on Iraq didn’t lead to a war with Iraq because their was insuffecient evidence to justify one and Clinton, later proven to be because Iraq had destroyed the bulk of its WMDs and what was left was too degraded to actually be used. Further if you want to use the UN to justify your war, you had better hope they agreed to it before you went in. A hint, they didn’t.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:21 pmComment by America
You cannot more dispute laws of physics than you can prove the world is flat… the WTC towers were demolitioned … the planes did NOT bring them down and no amount of copy and pasting will change that. Science is science… and science proves you wrong… YOU are the conspiracy theorist… You are the one saying that there was a conspiracy by Al Qeada … and lets say that is true… HOW did they demolition the WTC towers? Without help?
July 14th, 2006 at 5:22 pmComment by America
Its ok … we know you are a benedict arnold that supports the Saudis even though they attacked America. And you support Pakistan even though they were selling nuke technology to Lybia, Iran, and North Korea… we already know you are a traitor to this country that you leech off of.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:25 pmComment by America
Whos the #1 financer of terror in the world? Saudi Arabia. And where do they get their money? BIG OIL….
July 14th, 2006 at 5:30 pmAnd who props up the Saudi terrorist regime? Bush family and the Neo Cons.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:32 pmhttp://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/collapse.html
NOVA: I think some people were surprised when they saw this massive 110-story building collapse into a rubble pile only a few stories tall.
Eagar: Well, like most buildings, the World Trade Center was mostly air. It looked like a huge building if you walked inside, but it was just like this room we’re in. The walls are a very small fraction of the total room. The World Trade Center collapse proved that with a 110-story building, if 95 percent of it’s air, as was the case here, you’re only going to have about five stories of rubble at the bottom after it falls.
NOVA: You’ve said that the fire is the most misunderstood part of the World Trade Center collapse. Why?
Eagar: The problem is that most people, even some engineers, talk about temperature and heat as if they’re identical. In fact, scientifically, they’re only related to each other. Temperature tells me the intensity of the heat — is it 100 degrees, 200 degrees, 300 degrees? The heat tells me how big the thing is that gets hot. I mean, I could boil a cup of water to make a cup of tea, or I could boil ten gallons of water to cook a bunch of lobsters. So it takes a lot more energy to cook the lobsters — heat is related to energy. That’s the difference: We call the intensity of heat the temperature, and the amount of heat the energy.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:33 pmMany generations of unremitting hatred will do the trick.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:36 pmAnd here we go again, and again, and again. America, if you want to link to information, link to it. Don’t just repost the whole article the whole time. Seriously.
Gerald. Look, the 9/11 conspiracy isn’t provable in a court of law, it isn’t likely to ever see the inside of a court of law, lets just stick with the stuff we know the Republicans did okay? Things like violating the constitutional rights of countless Americans, things like taking bribes and giving no bid contracts. Things like lying about the justification for a war, and sending America into a war with a nation that was no threat to it.
Things like breaking records on national deficits, debts and vacation time. Things like employing cronies into positions normally reserved for people who know what they are doing (Mike Brown with FEMA is an excellent example.) Things like outing undercover agents simply to score political points.
There is enough ammo to not even have to try and get them on 9/11.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:38 pmWell, like most buildings, the World Trade Center was mostly air.
Air and harded steel. Steel only melts at certain temperatures and only certain chemical reactions can get steel hot enough to melt… Jet fuel and office equipment does not have the chemicals need to do so. And like ALL steel high rises to have EVER been caught in a raging inferno the WTC towers did not fall because of fire. For the SAME reason that the bomber that flew into the Empire State building did not bring it down… and for the same reason that Tornadoes will NEVER bring down a steel building… steel is not concrete… steel is not wood. Steel does not crumble… steel bends and breaks … which means movement… which means gravity would have pulled the buildings over just like all steel buildings that have been hit by earthquakes and had their base snaped … they just fall over and dont even smash … because steel is too strong. The ONLY thing that has EVER brought a steel building down on its own foot print is specially formulated chemicals called demolitions explosives… they have the exact chemicals needed to cut hardened steel… science is science. Scientists have shown in great detail exactly why they believe the WTC towers were demolitioned (besides people admitting as such on TV… but that is besides the point) … if someone wants to dispute them then they must do so with SCIENCE.. not opinion or laymans common sense.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:40 pmWow……”America” must be the pseudonym for the President of the Rendon Group.
Incidentally this “name” is kind of sly. If somebody decided to use this individual’s name in a derogatory way one might then be able to quickly and easily take it completely out of context. By using this ID–(strange such an obvious tag still exists here) one could easily intentionally decieve others by copying and pasting only bits and pieces.
This seems to make sense because it is-apparently–the author’s style.
Arafat and circumcision have more in common then claim and fact to this guy.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:42 pm911 is WAY bigger than Pearl Harbor and republicans… I am NOT embarressed to stand up for Science. You want to ignore it fine… just dont comment. But science has been provided and until science is used to explain this DEMOLITION then I will not accept lies NOR will I stand by and let the lies go unchallenged.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:43 pmThe WORLD is not flat … and STEEL does not MELT except under very certain conditions .. EVERY TIME…. just like EVERY time we send people up into space they look down and see a ROUND world.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:45 pmChrist we even have the owner of the WTC complex ADMITING on TV that they brought down the third building…wtf else does it take?
July 14th, 2006 at 5:46 pmGerald Gibson
Them having insured both towers maybe? I mean, if you are prepared to go to those lengths to win a political point, a little bit of insurance fraud shouldn’t be out of the question, heck, if you really were behind it and you owned the buildings, its insurance fraud anyway so you may as well make as much out of it as possible.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:49 pmgerald. ok then - explain how the demolition charges were placed on exactly the correct floor in each tower so that the towers collapsed from the floor that each plane hit? because that’s how thet collapsed - from the point of impact not from anywhere else. you may use science if you wish. i’l stick to occam’s razor, thank you.
hey swift boat america. pack it in - you’ve posted nothing that has not been debunked yearws ago. if john kerry is such a traitor why does john mccain (who has more reasons than most to disown him if true but does not) support kerry over his war record and post war stance? occam’s razor again. thanks for playing.
July 14th, 2006 at 5:54 pmCrucial Background on Gaza and Lebanon
July 14th, 2006 at 5:56 pmPHYSICS 911 is created and maintained by a group of scientists, engineers and other professionals known collectively as the Scientific Panel Investigating Nine-eleven.
July 14th, 2006 at 6:00 pmGerald, are you really that stupid to believe the WTC was brought down or are you just trying pull someone’s chain? In post 129 you said the owner of the WTC complex stated they (I assume this means the owner) took down WTC third building. I don’t suppose he/she could have meant that the building was too damaged to remain standing safely, so the only option was to bring it down?
July 14th, 2006 at 6:06 pmTerrytheTurtle:
explain how the demolition charges were placed on exactly the correct floor in each tower so that the towers collapsed from the floor that each plane hit?
Modern demolitions have wireless triggers and can be detonated in any order.
because that’s how thet collapsed - from the point of impact not from anywhere else.
Not exactly true….take a good long look at the collapse of WTC2. You’ll notice that just before it starts its ‘progressive collapse’, the top of the tower starts to lean. A shift like that is going to shift the center of mass, which will result in more stress on the side of the lean, and less on the side opposite. By all rights, that chunk should have kept leaning until it either broke loose and plummeted to the ground, or crashed into the floors below and regained equilibrium. But that’s not what happened. About a second after the lean started, the ‘progressive collapse’ kicked in, and the building fell straight down, while the huge chunk of building that had been leaning inexplicably shattered into dust.
It’s good that you’re asking these quesions…shows you’re thinking critically. If you take the time to critically examine the evidence, you’ll find that the more you research, the more preposterous the government’s ‘official version of events’ is. Res Ipsa Loquitur, and all that jazz.
If you’re interested in checking out some arguments, please take a look at this link.
Remember, don’t take my word for it, or anyone else’s. Do your own research and think your own thoughts.
July 14th, 2006 at 6:17 pmhezbollah isn’t a small group of thugs… they are members in the lebanese parliament…
Comment by joneser — July 14, 2006 @ 2:51 pm
Thanks for highlighting the fact that Hezbollah was elected to the parliament by the Lebanese people.
I don’t like their ideology any more than you do, but then such are the risks of democracy and free elections.
israel has been hitting bridges, airports, fuel depots… etc.. the infrastructure that allows hezbollah and hamas to attack them…
Hamas is not based in Lebanon but in the Gaza Strip and the West bank -they are Palestinians, not Lebanese.
As a background, one of Hezbollah’s peeves was the Israeli occupation of the southern portion of their country. The almost routine violations of Lebanese air space by Israel’s military aircraft is another source of tension.
All the infrastructure you list is civilian. Israel has targeted them in order to punish the Lebanese for supporting Hezbollah. It is not the first time Israel has exacted collective punishment on their neighrbors to the north.
Need I say this? Collective punishments are a violation of the Geneva Conventions and amount to war crimes.
walking into cafes and blowing up innocent people… or killing children in schools… blowing up chuches and synogogues (sp)….
No, Israel does not conduct suicide bomb missions but they do drop bombs and rockets in areas with high concentration of civilians. Israel’s military have helicopters, jet fighters, submarines, tanks, and nuclear weapons. Due to the huge difference in the quality and quantity of the military hardware available to them, Israeli soldiers kill far more people than suicide bombers ever could. Palestinians and Lebanese die in much higher rates than Israeli citizens.
As a matter of fact, Israel’s military is top in the region, above even Iran’s -a country much larger and with more population.
they shot at israel’s 3 largest city for what? what strategic importance short of killing jews? and yes innocents have been killed by israel on the otherside… but the people they are after hide in homes… what is your solution….?
As I said, many more Lebanese and Palestinian civilians have been killed during retaliatory attacks than Israelis during suicide missions. These attacks by Israel are collective punishments and illegal under international law.
This is not a defense of Hezbollah’s tactics, but you can surely see why Israel’s actions are repugnant.
does israel fight and shoot and kill from their from porch? no.
Well, Israel’s military did shell and kill civilians sunbathing on the beach in Gaza for no good reason.
They turned it into an oasis… what have the surrounding arab countries done with theirs? They are pillars of oppression. Muslims vote in israel for god sake where does the reciprocal happen?
So you have evidence that Jewish minorities cannot vote in, say, Egypt? Syria? Lebanon?
I would really like to see those links.
and as someone said I believe it was Dennis Prager… you need to stop elevating “peace†(ie appeasement) over goodness.
And I though peace was good… silly me.
July 14th, 2006 at 6:40 pmAmerica, don’t be an ASSHOLE.
If you have a large amount of information, be courteous enough to provide a link.
This isn’t the first time you’ve been asked this.
July 14th, 2006 at 6:59 pm#136 tripmaster - so you are saying the whole of both towers were rigged top to bottom for demolition (or atta was told which floor to hit) and that the impact of the planes didn’t set the charges off for over an hour before the wireless detonation signals came. uh-huh. I’ve read some of this stuff but not enough to go all grassy knoll on it.
anyhow that’s all off topic so no more about that
July 14th, 2006 at 7:13 pmTerryTheTurtle:
Again, modern explosives are very difficult to set off accidentally. The mere kinetic energy of an airliner strike, or the low amount of heat from the resulting fire, would have been inadequate.
And yes, both towers were rigged top to bottom. Otherwise, it is impossible for a) the collapse to have proceeded at just under the speed of free fall in a vacuum, and b) the concrete comprising the towers to be pulverized into dust particles approximately 60 microns across (both of which are verifiable facts).
Although the plane impact couldn’t have set off any charges accidentally, it could have rendered a few of them inoperative, which would explain the few steel sections that were over 30″ long.
July 14th, 2006 at 7:21 pm“America” = Rumsfeld (say alot of words that mean very little and are easily ignored). How about summarizing your main point and providing some links? I think I need to be evaluated for carpal tunnel symptoms.
July 14th, 2006 at 8:42 pmI wonder if America troll is Seixon the Norwegian getting revenge on TP and all of us who post on the threads? Very obnoxious behavior, so I hope Judd deletes all of America’s posts soon!
July 14th, 2006 at 9:32 pm144 Jay Randal
July 14th, 2006 at 9:39 pmSeixon is an obvious suspicion - same long-winded, “see how smart I am and how dumb you are” rhetoric, and not responding to direct questions from others.
Jay,
I seriously doubt it…not his style.
Seixon is far too convinced of his own rhetorical superiority to stoop to mere cutting and pasting.
He’s also far too egotistic to avoid posting under his chosen nom de plume.
July 14th, 2006 at 9:44 pmOk, looked thru the entire site, lot of bitchin, where’s the idea’s? Its probably a fair anagly that most people here dont have a clue. If you don’t look at the problem now brewing in the middle east, your stupid?
July 14th, 2006 at 11:06 pmTrue TripMaster, but Seixon once said on a thread he could gum up TP with articles, if he wanted, so this new troll is suspicious!
Thank goodness the America posts got deleted!
July 14th, 2006 at 11:07 pmBrandi on other TP threads we are posting about the Middle East problems!
July 14th, 2006 at 11:09 pm#108 - I’m reading Tripmaster. I am a trained engineer, so you can appreciate I will at least give it my best…per your request I am reading. It’s what sign up to - no acts of faith for you or me at least.
July 14th, 2006 at 11:52 pm#113 Brandi - if I can decypher your spelling correctly, you are irritated that less attention to the ME crisis than you would like is taking place. Your opinion is shared by many here, but then realize many people who comment here do so to seek both like-minded souls who feel passion about the subjects TP raises and also to confront people who don’t see it the same way. TP sometimes covers the material weel, sometimes they don’t. If noone discusses the issues and seeks answers from all sources you end up with what you see on CNN, or worse still on Fox. Don’t judge so soon Brandi - promise we won’t judge you likewise.
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SAMSUNG SGH-S307 850/1900………..$110usd
SAMSUNG V205[USED]TRIMODE………..$65usd
NEXTEL i930 AT JUST …………….$110usd
NEXTEL i860 AT JUST …………….$100usd
SAMSUNG D500 AT JUST ……………$160usd
SAMSUNG D415 AT JUST…………….$120usd
SAMSUNG SGH D720 JUST FOR ……….$170USD
QTEK
Qtek s200 =$100
Qtek 9000 =$130
Qtek 8310 =$200
Qtek 8300 =$210
Qtek 9100 =$240
Qtek 8100 =$250
Qtek s110 =$210
Qtek s100 =$200
Qtek 9090 =$210
Qtek 8020 =$200
Qtek 8010 =$180
Qtek 2020i=$240
Qtek 2020 =$250
Qtek 8080 =$130
Qtek 8060 =$160
Qtek 1010 =$150
Qtek 7070 =$250
DVD
Panasonic DVD-LS5 DVD Player…$150USD
Mintek MDP-5860 DVD Player…..$90USD
Panasonic DMR-E50S DVD Recorder…$190USD
Samsung DVD-L200 DVD Player….. $150USD
and many more…………………….
GAME
W/xbox 360 hard drive,
Xbox 360 wireless controller,
Xbox 360 faceplate,
Xbox 360 headset,
Xbox 360 component hd-av cable,
Xbox live silver membership
(#xbox360pla) $260 per-unit buy 3 and take one free
play station 1… $120
play station 2 …$130
play station 3…$150
x_box 360….$200
GARMIN 396…$150
Game boy latext edition……$110
PDA
Palm Zire 72 PDA-$100usd
Sony PEG-SJ33 Color CLIÉ Handheld PDA-$120usd
Sony CLIÉ PEG-UX50 PDA-$150usd
HP iPAQ Pocket PC hx4705 PDA-$160usd
Palm Tungsten E PDA-$60usd
Palm Tungsten T5 PDA-$80usd
Palm LifeDrive Mobile Manager PDA-$100usd
HP iPAQ Pocket PC HX4700 PD-$200usd
Sharp Mobilon HC-4100 PDA-$100usd
o2 XDAII MINI integrated Pocket PC & GSM phone-$300usd
o2 XDAIIS integrated pocket PC & GSM Phone-$330usd
HP Ipaq HX4700 Pocket PC -$200usd
HP Ipaq HX2700 Pocket PC ……………………………….$300usd
IPODS
Apple 4 GB ipod mini blue m9802ll/a””””””””””””””’us$64.00
Apple 4 GB ipod mini pink m9804ll/a””””””””””””””’us$64.00
Apple 4 GB ipod mini green m9806ll/a””””””””””””””us$64.00
Apple 6 GB ipod mini blue m9803ll/a””””””””””””””’us$68.00
Apple 6 GB ipod mini silver m9801ll/a””””””””””””””us$68.00
Apple 20 GB ipod m9282ll/a”””””””””””””””””””’us$69.00
Apple 4 GB ipod mini pink m9435ll/a”””””””””””””””us$49.00
Apple 40 GB ipod photo””””””””””””””””””””””us$49.00
Apple 4 GB ipod nano””””””””””””””””””””””’us$69.00
Apple 2 GB ipod nano””””””””””””””””””””””’us$62.00
Apple 4 GB ipod mini silver m9160ll/a”””””””””””””””us$49.00
Apple 60 GB ipod photo m9830ll/a”””””””””””””””””’us$86.00
Apple 60 GB ipod photo”””””””””””””””””””””””us$49.00
Apple 30 GB ipod photo m9829ll/a””””””””””””””””””us$73.00
Apple 512 mb ipod shuffle mp3 player
m9724ll/a”””””””””””’us$56.00
Apple 4 GB ipod mini blue
m9436ll/a”””””””””””””””””us$49.00
Apple 20 GB ipod u2 special
edition”””””””””””””””””’us$73.00
Apple 6 GB ipod mini green
m9807ll/a”””””””””””””””””us$64.00
New apple 60 GB video ipod””””””””’us$140.00
New apple 30 GB video ipod””””””””’us$120.00
SIDE-KICK 2 AND 3
T-Mobile Sidekick II Cell Phone………………………….$100
T-Mobile Sidekick II……………………………………$80
Sidekick II T-Mobile with Color Screen……………………$150
T-Mobile Sidekick II TMO to Go Prepaid Phone………………$110
T-Mobile Sidekick II Phone (T-Mobile)…………………….$100
T-Mobile Sidekick II T-Mobile Replacement Phone……………$170
T-Mobile Sidekick - Data Only Product Features…………….$90
T-Mobile SideKick II……………………………………$100
Mobile Sidekick II……………………………………..$100
Mobile Sidekick III…………………………………….$150
Sidekick III Wood Look Skin & Screen Protector Brand New …..$160
Sidekick II Red Sparkle Skin/Screen Protector Cover New ……$170
Danger hiptop / T-Mobile Sidekick Universal FM Radio ………$190
The best awards and adV specialties supplier on the Net
auctioning-Sidekick and Ipod
Regards
Manage ment
July 15th, 2006 at 7:51 pmMR Stad Nysha
PHONE/N:-+2348026995791
E_MAIL:Mobilemartltd@yahoo.co.uk
Israel isn’t going anywhere.
The only tools you have to fight the injustice is to call the Democrats out for their hypocricy for supporting Israel whilst condemning Bush foreign policy.
July 16th, 2006 at 8:54 amMOBILE TELECOMMUNICATIONS WORLD WIDE LTD
ADDRESS:- 70 AIRPORT RD
Registration No: FGN/093/26.
MR Stad Nysha
PHONE/N:-+2348026995791
E_MAIL:Mobilemartltd@yahoo.co.uk
Dear Sir/Ma,
LETTER OF BUSINESS RELATIONSHIP
We are mobile phones wholesalers.We deals on all brands and models of mobile phones such as Nokia,Motorola,Samsung,Sony Ericsson,Sagem, Nextel,Sidekick II,Sprint,Ipods,television,W/xbox 360,dvd, Laptops, Mp3 players and many more at very cheap prices.We are using this medium to look for buyers of mobile phones.Do kindly reply back if you are interested and as you do you will be glad you do, you can reach us through our email address:mobilemartltd@yahoo.co.uk thank’s and God bless.
PRESIDENT:-RAYMOND BEN
Here are thePrice list for different products;
NOKIA 7270(UNLOCK)………………$220usd
NOKIA 7280(UNLOCK)………………$250usd
NOKIA 8310(UNLOCK)………………$100usd
NOKIA 8390 1900 MHZ……………..$95usd
NOKIA 7600(