Defending Bush’s Veto, Rove Grossly Distorts Stem Cell Science
Defending Bush’s Veto, Rove Grossly Distorts Stem Cell Science
Today, Bush is expected to veto a bill that would expand federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. It will be the first veto of his presidency. Last week, Karl Rove –- explaining why Bush planned on vetoing the bill — told the Denver Post that “recent studies” show researchers “have far more promise from adult stem cells than from embryonic stem cells.”
The Chicago Tribune contacted a dozen top stem cell experts about Rove’s claim. They all said it was inaccurate. So who wrote the “studies” that Rove was referring to?
White House spokesman Ken Lisaius on Tuesday could not provide the name of a stem cell researcher who shares Rove’s views on the superior promise of adult stem cells.
In a letter to President Bush last year, a group of 80 Nobel laureates wrote that “current evidence suggests that adult stem cells have markedly restricted differentiation potential.”
Question: Does President Bush believe that adult stem cell research has “far more promise” than embryonic stem cells? Is that a contributing factor in his decision to veto the bill?
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The White House at this point cannot be trusted. No one should believe Bush or Rove even if they are informing us of what they had for breakfast.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:19 amIs that Rove doing an impersonation of a blastocyst yelling “Are you going to kill me?”.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:20 am“Don’t stand between a pro stem cell Republican and his abortion!
July 19th, 2006 at 11:21 amPro Stem Cell Republican
July 19th, 2006 at 11:21 amWill the Denver Post call Rove on his bald-faced LIE?
July 19th, 2006 at 11:24 amgeorge w. bush is a glaring example of mad scientist rove’s moronic stem cell research.
pull the plug, please!
July 19th, 2006 at 11:26 amthe president said what he is going to do. He can’t back down. If he does it’ll just be a slippery slope of changing ideas and we can’t have that :(
July 19th, 2006 at 11:27 amIsn’t that Rove’s forte` -Distortion of fact?
July 19th, 2006 at 11:29 amAnyone honestly surprised by this? Even a little bit?
This is just standard operating procedure for this administration. Repeat the lies loud enough and often enough, and they become truth.
This administration generates its own reality on the fly. It would be fascinating to watch…except they keep getting their reality all mixed up in objective reality, making it a pain for those of us who expect 2+2 to continue to equal 4.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:31 amIsn’t this so Rovian?
July 19th, 2006 at 11:31 amIt’s ironic that Bush approves of private industry using these to be discarded embryos for research but then equates using them to murder when it comes to using federal funds – yet apparently a majority of the US population support such research and probably wouldn’t mind federal funds being applied to such research. I would love to see my tax dollars go to useful research – if the results will potentially be life saving treatments for millions. If even a small fraction of the billions we’ve used to kill people were used for life saving, we’d be a lot better off as a country and a society.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:31 amThis whole issue is designed to mobilize the conservative base. I have heard it said a number of times, that the party that motivates it’s base will win the next election. Losing a battle can win you the war!!
July 19th, 2006 at 11:35 amKatl (Reichmeister) Rove, what a a work of (bad) art. I supppose Karl & Co. are intelligent enough not to beleive their own BS. How many middle class working stiffs are still drinking their kool-aide? Lets not use embrionic stem cells for research, even though they ae going to be destroyed anyway. Maybe they are scared scientist might find a cure for GOP induced hysteria and brainwashing?
TexasJuice
July 19th, 2006 at 11:39 amNo one has done more to undermine reasoned debate and democracy in the U.S. than that porcine puke.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:41 amRove’s Ministry of Disinformation makes Joseph Goebbels Propaganda Ministry look Bush league by comparison.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:43 amThis whole issue is designed to mobilize the conservative base. I have heard it said a number of times, that the party that motivates it’s base will win the next election. Losing a battle can win you the war!!
Comment by mjvpi — July 19, 2006 @ 11:35 am
The may motivate their base, but a short think about this leaves most rational people shaking their heads.
The treatments and cures developed are going to be used to prolong the lives of every person on the planet, thats a big market. Is the US really going to give that a pass? By all means (rubs hands) all the more for those of us who can think clearly.
Bush is literally driving the US to destruction and extinction, it’s like he WANTS to destroy the US. So wierd.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:48 amI see that Karl Rove has gotten fat again > he must have ate that entire roasted pig in Germany > lol.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:54 amWhite House spokesman Ken Lisaius on Tuesday could not provide the name of a stem cell researcher who shares Rove’s views on the superior promise of adult stem cells.
What…another “state secret?” The house these people reside in is so full of horseshit, they’ll NEVER find that pony!
July 19th, 2006 at 11:55 amThey guys have no shame/morals they lie about anything and everything, because they know the press will print the quote and oir simple brothers and sisters in their red states will hear it and then it becomes fact to them.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:57 amYou should have seen Brit Hume and Fred Barnes yesterday, they were spewing the same falshoods, it was ridiculous, even Mort Kondrake, who apparently is involved with a lot of leukemia charities wants embryonic stem cell research. Fred of course says that adult stem cells can do everything the embryonic ones can and anyone who says otherwise is following junk science.
I f’ing guess.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:57 amSo who wrote the “studies†that Rove was referring to?
Studies? Pardon me while I laugh. We don’t need no stinkin’ studies. President Decider has declared that adult stem cells have more promise. This “recent studies” BS is just to divert attention elsewhere.
Rove’s “recent studies” comment should be fodder for the next press gaggle with The Snowman.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:58 amQuestion[s]: Does President Bush believe that adult stem cell research has “far more promise†than embryonic stem cells?
if that’s what rove and dobson et al have told him, then yes…
Is that a contributing factor in his decision to veto the bill?
not necessarliy – it has more to do with being a stubborn jerk…
gawd these people make me sick…
July 19th, 2006 at 11:59 am#16
First of all, there is clear evidence the adult stem cells are actually more viable for research. Secondly, private can do research on embryonic stem cells. No one is stopping them. Thirdly, we are not on the edge of destruction and extinction. Maybe that’s true for the number of liberals since your ideas are so far out of the mainstream and since your side wanted abortion so bad, look at where that has got you guys.
July 19th, 2006 at 11:59 amRandy,
Good points.
So why do so many Republicans support this stem cell funding?
July 19th, 2006 at 12:03 pmWhat I find interesting is that, in yesterday’s threads related to this topic, several conservative visitors to this site made the same comment about adult stem cells having more potential than embryonic cells. It almost sounded scripted.
I had never heard such a thing before and was wondering where they got their information, since none of those commenters posted links to any study.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:03 pmHonestly though, this does seem part of a concerted effort to dismantle US :
A) Science
B) Economy
C) Military
D) Reputation
Is this the most precipitous self destruction of empire to date? All the others just sort of slid into it, Bush seems to be racing.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:03 pm#23
First point, link some proof that backs up your claim about adult stem research please.
Second point, but if its murder, as the president claims it should be against the law.
Third point,…uh what?
July 19th, 2006 at 12:04 pmFirst of all, there is clear evidence the adult stem cells are actually more viable for research.
Oh for goodness sake, thats not even on the table for debate!!
July 19th, 2006 at 12:05 pmFirst of all, there is clear evidence the adult stem cells are actually more viable for research.
Comment by Randy — July 19, 2006 @ 11:59 am
If it is so clear, you should be able to provide links to those studies.
Keep in mind that 80 Nobel laureates already said that adult cells “have markedly restricted differentiation potentialâ€, and that a dozen top scientists in the field have said that claim is inaccurate.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:06 pmFact: embryonic stem cells have the potential to become ANY cell in the body.
Fact: adult stem cells can only become certain types of cells, depending on what they were to begin with.
This is pretty straightforward.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:09 pmJust more Truthiness
July 19th, 2006 at 12:11 pmThis is pretty straightforward.
Comment by onthefence — July 19, 2006 @ 12:09 pm
It is indeed. The source of this bullshit is religious. That these crackpots might hold up something that could improve, prolong or save my life pisses me off no end.
Worse though, is the general drag this puts on all medical development. The impact these fools have on global development is incalculable.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:14 pm[...] ThinkProgress Today, Bush is expected to veto a bill that would expand federal funding for embryonic stem cell research. It will be the first veto of his presidency. Last week, Karl Rove –- explaining why Bush planned on vetoing the bill — told the Denver Post that “recent studies†show researchers “have far more promise from adult stem cells than from embryonic stem cells.†[...]
July 19th, 2006 at 12:16 pmRandy wrote: Secondly, private can do research on embryonic stem cells. No one is stopping them.
The reality is that many of the private funding organizations follow the lead of the NIH. They adhere to the requirements set down by the NIH, thus they will not support stem cell research unless it follows the rules of government funding (no new cell lines). Researchers aren’t going to find the funding amounts they need from private sources.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:23 pmBush can’t back off his stance because 1) he would thus lose alot of his base, which is shrinking already, 2) he is incapable of the personal insight and acceptance of outside knowledge to alter his views, and 3) he can’t risk standing on the slippery slope of acknowledge his numerous mistakes.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:26 pmRove is a liar and a crook who got away with outing a cia agent,thus putting dozens of lives in danger ,not only cia lives butr lives of people valerie spoke with under cover…….the truth about stem cells veto is they dont want to loose the religious right,they rather watch old people and young suffer and die needlessly when stem cell research could save them..these embroyo’s theyu call life,are they willing to take home and care for the nearly 600,000 in this country alone that get thrown out…seems to me using them to save a life far out beats throwing them away…..nice funeral……you on the right should keep your religious beliefs to yourself……..i will shove what i want down my own throat,thank you
July 19th, 2006 at 12:27 pmHey wait a minute. If its proper for a private company to do research on embryonic stem cells, why isn’t it proper for the federal government to do such research. If this research is immoral why are we allowing private companies to do work with embryonic stem cells?
Are there private groups using embryonic stem cells and where do they get the cells?I thought there was a comprehensive ban on embryonic stem cell research?
July 19th, 2006 at 12:36 pmadult stem cells having more potential than embryonic cells. It almost sounded scripted.
…wondering where they got their information, since none of those commenters posted links to any study.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — July 19, 2006 @ 12:03 pm
it’s the latest meme on this subject… definetely scripted…
July 19th, 2006 at 12:38 pmany links posted all end up at “pro-life” sites and blogs…
it’s all a lie for propoganda purposes…
Ahhh #23 get educated on the issue before spewing garbage
Embryonic Stem Cells (ECS) can and do become any tissue. That’s how you were crafted at the cellular level in your mothers womb, piece by microscopic piece, and throughout your childhood. Embryonic Stem Cells created your heart, your eyes, your brain, and everything else. Because ESCs can become any tissue, we would say they have much greater plasticity than ASCs
http://www.dailykos.com/storyonly/2006/7/19/9257/41450
July 19th, 2006 at 12:39 pmWhat? The turdblossom told an untruth? I am shocked and appalled…this scumbag goes back to the Nixon Administration and has out done anything he and Magruder did in that fiasco.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:45 pmadult stem cells having more potential than embryonic cells. It almost sounded scripted. ITS AN ABSOLUTE LIE,ASK THE iSRAELI’S WHO HAVE GROWN PARTS OF A MANS HEART USING THEM,NOT ADULT……..PLUS THEY HELPED A MAN WITH HIS BRAIN DAMAGE WITH REGROWTH AND ONE IS NOW WALKING…….ROVE KNOWS ZERO………
July 19th, 2006 at 12:52 pmEmbryonic stem cell research has not only yet to cure a
single human patient, but it has never been tried on humans
because of failures in animal testing. On the other hand, adult
stem cells have already produced 70 cures or treatments for
various conditions including various cancers such as breast
cancer, lymphomas, leukemia, arthritis, heart damage, Parkinsons,
Sickle Cell Anemia and other disorders.
The most recent poll on the subject, conducted by
International Communications Research in mid-May, finds 48% of
Americans oppose federal funding of stem cell research that
requires destroying human embryos. Just 39% support such funding
and another 12 percent had no position. The ICR survey found 57%
favored funding only the research avenues that do not harm the
donor. Just 24% favored funding all stem cell research, including
the type that involves destroying human embryos.
For more information on stem cell research, see http://www.lifenews.com.
July 19th, 2006 at 12:56 pmSpeak of the devil….
July 19th, 2006 at 1:02 pmFrom TP, yesterday:
And yet these ESC’s will otherwise be destroyed.
Oh the irony of it all!
July 19th, 2006 at 1:04 pm#44
Correction…they will be discarded.
July 19th, 2006 at 1:06 pmYay! Bush has saved the rights of cells to be disposed of in the trash instead of being used to save the lives of billions of people. Go Republicans!
July 19th, 2006 at 1:07 pmSteven Ertelt;
There was a thread a couple of days ago debunking most claims of Adult Stem cell cures.
The Think fast thread was
http://thinkprogress.org/ 2006/ 07/ 15/ distorting-stem-cell-research/ trackback
I think the arguement is not whether there is currently any way of using stem cells to alleviate disease but whether it is worth doing more research.
July 19th, 2006 at 1:15 pm” they never stop thinking of ways to hurt Americans and neither do we”
July 19th, 2006 at 1:15 pmROVE – scum on steroids!
July 19th, 2006 at 1:16 pmTo Karl Rove AKA Pig Vomit because he looks like a pig and makes you want to vomit, words are just tools of propaganda and oppression they have no meaning outside of that context.
Remember GOP stands for:
Greed
July 19th, 2006 at 1:20 pmOppression
Propaganda
Looks like he’s gotten his appetite back!
July 19th, 2006 at 1:22 pmDo you ever think it would be nice to have a polygraph machine attached to every WhiteHouse spokesman so you could tell if he was lying? Of course judging from recent history every WhiteHouse spokestooge is lying with every word.
July 19th, 2006 at 1:31 pmCan’t Wait Until 2008
July 19th, 2006 at 1:32 pmAs long as this Administration doesn’t start going to the existing cryo clinics and seizing stored cord blood, I say let the research move forward! We banked our 4-year old sons cord blood (ECS) and it is the smartest thing we could have done… look into it. As for Rove and his puppet (Bush) distorting statistics and proven research, well we’ve been so desensitized to that, that it isn’t even shocking anymore.
July 19th, 2006 at 1:33 pmWhat else do we expect from this diseased, lying pus-bag?
July 19th, 2006 at 1:34 pmThat asshole lies so much, he just keeps on doing it because he knows that, unlike this time, he won’t get caught within the first couple of news cycles. He takes advantage of mainstream media myopia and knows that usually after a couple of days, whatever he says won’t matter, but the message/talking points will have gotten across to the zealots.
July 19th, 2006 at 1:35 pmScrambling babies for your own twisted agenda is disgusting.
Our beloved President is doing God’s work.
Bless him and all he does!
July 19th, 2006 at 1:35 pmSkeptic:
I doubt we’ll hear from Steve again. It’s likely he just popped in long enough to promote his Web site and *poof* he was outta here.
I checked his Web site. Not that it matters, but no one on the staff has any medical degree or training. Two members, including Steve, have educational backgrounds in politics. One is a pro-life advocate, and another has experience as a reporter.
And in 2 articles on his site, there are no links to studies showing that adult stem cells are the better choice.
Finally, I find this quote on the site, and have a follow-up question:
If an embryo is an unborn child, and it is frozen for storage purposes, isn’t that child abuse?
July 19th, 2006 at 1:38 pmThe trouble with thinking about Tony Snow’s comments is that after a while things start clicking in my brain and I go huh? This does not compute.
From yesterday’s TP
But if George Bush thinks murder is wrong why did he not stop any of the Texas executions while he was a governor. A number of those people were convicted on dubious evidence or had a very poorly conducted trial.
Of course there is the easy answer that George Bush is a lying hypocrite and Tony Snow is his hand puppet, but thats no way to think of our blessed President
July 19th, 2006 at 1:40 pmPerhaps I’m thinking about this all wrong, but I think Bush’s stance on stem-cell is very consistent with and motivated by his usual support of corporate interests… it doesn’t surprise me at all. Here’s what I’m thinking… the data from federally funded research is sort of public domain… the data are published in journals and anyone can take the data and attempt to develop technologies from it…this promotes healthy competition (a small innovative biotech firm can be on an even playing field with a large multinational corporation) and we the people, who foot the bill for the research in the first place, benefit. However… if we do not allow federal funds to support stem cell research, the research will be done (and I feel quite confident it is being done as we speak and Bush is stalling) by large corporations with the resources to do this (remember the pharmaceutical companies that this administration has been so supportive of??) Data from that research is proprietary. This allows those companies to develop their own technologies from that data with minimal competition. And further with fewer competitors… they probably will get to charge more for whatever technologies they do develop. And that is why Bush has no interest in actually outlawing stem cell research. This is just another example of this administration helping out their corporate buddies. Does this make sense??
July 19th, 2006 at 1:41 pmSceptic:
Executing prisoners is not Murder. They are not innocent, your anecdotal evidence notwithstanding. Taking innocent unborn children and killing them basically for sport, is an abomination.
Do you support the slaughter of farm raised doves by our Vice President?
July 19th, 2006 at 1:46 pmA Repugnant worm whose twisted, psyche was developed from a tortured past: his mother committed suicide and his father – who abandoned him – was gay. Consequently, Rove, who was eschewed by most of his contemporaries during his youth, hates women and gays, his self and life in general. The policies he supports will ensure that more sad, twisted, self-hating scum like himself will be produced.
July 19th, 2006 at 1:46 pmBar (57): You don’t like scrambling babies? But of course you approve of scrambling 100,000 Iraqis because you love our Dear Leader. Breaking an egg to make an omelet made perfect sense to you when it came to slaughtering rag-heads.
July 19th, 2006 at 1:46 pmWC;
July 19th, 2006 at 1:46 pmSteve popped into an earlier TP thread and popped out again. I was hoping this time he would stay around long enough to reply. Thanks for reporting on his website, I have not looked at it, and was not going to do so.
I am ambivalent about embryonic stem cell research, but I really don’t like faux facts. I wanted to inform Steve that he was circulating the stem cell equivalent of an urban myth if he was doing so by mistake.
For Democrats, that veto threat could be just what the doctor ordered. In a nutshell, Bush’s 2006 base-baiting, red meat strategy could well backfire when it comes to stem cell research.
For the details, see:
July 19th, 2006 at 1:49 pm“Bush Stem Cell Veto Threat is Dems’ Opportunity.”
I agree with one of the other posts. At this point the Bush administration and the entire republican party for that matter cannot be trusted. One must automatically assume that any, and I mean ANY, comments they give about any subject matter, whether its about stem cell research, global warming, the middle east, anything at all has to be considered either intentional misinformation or an outright lie.
July 19th, 2006 at 1:49 pmI have an idea, for the donors of the eggs to have a say whether they want them donated for stem cell research or not.
July 19th, 2006 at 1:50 pmThis is just another example of this administration helping out their corporate buddies. Does this make sense??
Comment by KirinRain
Lemme see enron, halliburton, port deals, privitization, war profiteering, lobbyists and greed.
Why this makes no sense whatsoever!
July 19th, 2006 at 1:50 pm(actually it does, thanks for the insightful post =c)
Did our vice president kill farm raised doves? You do have a source don’t you? This has relevance to this arguement how?
If someone is executed who is innocent; or was deprived of a fair trial; or was convicted on very bad evidence; wouldn’t you consider that murder? No I don’t have a source for this story but one of the executed men was when a witness was allowed to look at his picture before picking him out of a police lineup.
If George Bush was against murder, he should have made sure all capitol cases were carefully reviewed so no one was wrongly executed. He did nothing.
Is anyone killing an embryo for sport? I thought the blastocytes were being disposed of because they were extras in fertilization attempts. Do people get scores or trophies for every embryo flushed into the waste basket?
July 19th, 2006 at 1:55 pmIf Bush believes embryos are human life to be protected, why doesn’t he call for a law forbidding disposal and forcing eternal frozen storage?
July 19th, 2006 at 1:56 pmI have an idea, for the donors of the eggs to have a say whether they want them donated for stem cell research or not.
Comment by madashell — July 19, 2006 @ 1:50 pm
Actually, at infertility clinics, it used to be the standard to fertilize 4-6 good eggs, implant 2-3, and “freeze” the rest. After time, the choice was to try and re-impregnate, discard, or use for research. Once Bush became president (and golly how I hate saying that), the latter became illegal….so most “donors” threw them away
July 19th, 2006 at 1:56 pm67 madashell
July 19th, 2006 at 1:56 pmWhy go there? Since those cells are human life, let’s ask them directly if they want to donate themselves.
Re: #42 I’ve seen the exact same post, word for word, on multiple boards the last two days.
Got astroturf?
July 19th, 2006 at 2:03 pmRove is a very busy guy lately setting up a new war on Iran soon!
July 19th, 2006 at 2:04 pmSceptic,
Here you go.
These seems cruel don’t you think? Raising birds soley for the purpose of shooting them?
See where I’m going with this??
July 19th, 2006 at 2:11 pmYou can tell when the Bushites are lying: they’re lips are moving.
July 19th, 2006 at 2:18 pmDo you ever think it would be nice to have a polygraph machine attached to every WhiteHouse spokesman so you could tell if he was lying?…
Comment by Skeptic — July 19, 2006 @ 1:31 pm
i like randi rhodes’ idea – she often says that ANYone associated with any administration should be required to take the “tell the truth” oath whenever giving any statement while standing next to or anywhere near the seal of the United States…
sounds like a good idea to me…
July 19th, 2006 at 2:22 pm…This is just another example of this administration helping out their corporate buddies. Does this make sense??
Comment by KirinRain — July 19, 2006 @ 1:41 pm
yep!
July 19th, 2006 at 2:23 pmBe forewarned about the poster Bar…do not engage, I repeat do not engage.
July 19th, 2006 at 2:26 pmlet the lawyers IMMEDIATELY come up with a dusty old ,if need be ,law to arrest bush and his GOONS on something TREASON comes to mind
July 19th, 2006 at 2:27 pmnext a NATIONAL MARCH ON D.C. THEN …..WELL WHAT DO U THINK??
I DON’T GET IT. EVEN WHEN EVERYONE IS AGAINST THEM THEY STILL REFUSE TO BUCKLE, LISTEN OR ACT LIKE THEY ARE CONSIDERING OTHER OPTIONS. WHAT’S THE POINT? I CAN’T BELIEVE NOT ONE REPUBLICAN WILL EVEN STAND UP AND FIGHT. HOW CAN ANYONE IN CONGRESS STAND IT? HOW DO THEY LOOK THEMSELVES IN THE MIRROR?
July 19th, 2006 at 2:31 pmASTM on the nasdaq Aastrom Bioscience,uses adult stem cells in skin regeneration, but its a penny stock and you could end up with nothing but a loss….however since the topic is stem cell you ought to look at the companys working in the area,if for no other reason but to learn.others are stem,gern,cris and 200-300 more,selling from 50 cents to 100 dollars a share.i own astm,but you should read as much as you can about stem cells,so many diseases are near to being cured and stem cells is the way……..bush couldnt be more wrong,after all if their not used they are thrown away,hundreds daily………if their life as bush claims,wouldnt throwing them away be a crime???// well its not,so why not use them to save lives.forget about buying stocks and buy into life,tell your senators to overturn bush’s veto……..
July 19th, 2006 at 2:36 pmLet me reinforce madashell. Do not engage Bar, who has admitted to trying to hijack TP threads. No benefit to engaging.
July 19th, 2006 at 2:37 pmIf this jackass is doing Gods work, than I am the virgin Mary reincarnated.
We need to impeach this man and all of his infamous research team.
July 19th, 2006 at 2:40 pmJuly 19, 2006
Karl Rove lying about the truth merely for Republican political gain? I’m shocked!!!!!!
Why the hell hasn’t the main stream media been reporting on this since 1999? If there was any justice in this world, Karl Rove would be arrested for treason and spend the rest of his life in jail!
Rot In Hell Traitor!
Chuck
July 19th, 2006 at 2:41 pmHave you people forgotten we’re at war? I’m sure the study rove is quoting is “classified”. Jeezzz..
July 19th, 2006 at 2:44 pm[...] Please find the entire story here. [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 2:47 pmWhimper! But I want to talk to Bar. Bar is a harmless comedian who is imitating a crazy Republican right wing thug. Complete with off topic arguements and imitation facts.
July 19th, 2006 at 2:49 pmWhy Bar accused Cheney of killing doves and backed it up with a link that accused Cheney of killing mallard ducks and pheasants. I just wanted to tell Bar that doves, duck and pheasants aren’t the same thing.
At least Bar provided a link which is more than I-Right-I used to do. What happenned to I-Right-I anyway?
I want to notice that in general and is whole like all OK, though there are also some defects in registration and colour scale. The http://www.playbob.info/ very good design! By…
July 19th, 2006 at 2:50 pmBush just vetoed the bill. Here’s the link.
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/07/19/washington/19cnd-stem.html?hp&ex=1153368000&en=c59f214cb1301b12&ei=5094&partner=homepage
July 19th, 2006 at 2:59 pmKirinRain
THANK YOU! for the simple answer
July 19th, 2006 at 3:04 pm[...] Defending Bush s Veto, Rove Grossly Distorts Stem Cell ScienceThink Progress, DC - 3 hours agoThe Chicago Tribune contacted a dozen top stem cell experts about Rove s claim. They all said it was inaccurate. So who wrote … [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 3:07 pmSkeptic,
Uh Oh! I got the bird wrong. Yes, let’s argue about the significance of the difference between a pan raised pheasent and a pen raised dove. That’ll appeal to the voters.
Go ahead and focus on the minutia. You Democrats really love the wonky stuff, don’t ya? Go ahead and nominate another guy or gal who wants to debate the ins and outs of universal health care. Who gives a rat’s behind. We’ll talk abou t how many times you flip flopped or how many trucks you own or any other BS we can think of that somehow paints you in a poor light. We’ll say it so many times that everyone will hear it and despited its veracity most of ‘em will believe it.
You are a perfect example of how f’ed up your party is and why you continue to lose despite the fact that some of your ideas have merit.
You gotta put a pretty red cherry on top and shove it down teh voters throats.
Dems seem to think that too icky and their hands’ll get all yucky. We use a pole so our hands don’t get dirty and continue winning.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:07 pmIt’s all yours Skeptic. Have at it! I’ll be cheering for you.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:10 pmWe need to leave science to the scientist and lying to KKKarl Rove. KKKarl sets the talking points for all Republicans. Why would anyone think KKKarl had the knowledge to comment on anything, let alone science?
July 19th, 2006 at 3:16 pmWhile DuMbya was expected to veto this bill it comes as no surprise that puppet master Karlotta lied to mimic DuMbya’s abhorrence of science. It’ll be funny to see DuMbya, probably a year or so from now, when Alzheimer’s sets in (If it hasn’t already, and it seems it has), wondering why the science that would help him “Recover” from his already brain-dead miasma, otherwise known as his presidency, and drooling and demanding to know why he can’t be cured. The buffoon is TOO STUPID to understand even the simplest of concepts. And Karlotta? Well, we should expect nothing less from a zealot of this particular stripe.
God Bless America- what’s left of it.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:31 pm[...] That might be a defensible position, if it were true. However, as we so often see in the world of Rovian distortions, truth doesn’t matter. All that matters is making the claim–because the media certainly won’t challenge it. ThinkProgress reports today that Karl Rove made almost exactly the same claim in the Denver Post last week: Recent studies, he (Rove) said, show that researchers “have far more promise from adult stem cells than from embryonic stem cells.” [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 3:34 pm[...] That might be a defensible position, if it were true. However, as we so often see in the world of Rovian distortions, truth doesn’t matter. All that matters is making the claim–because the media certainly won’t challenge it. ThinkProgress reports today that Karl Rove made almost exactly the same claim in the Denver Post last week: Recent studies, he (Rove) said, show that researchers “have far more promise from adult stem cells than from embryonic stem cells.” [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 3:34 pmBar;
Please get back on track. I love facts, and truth but thats a personal thing.
I thought doves were a joke on your part, but Cheney isn’t part of the topic of discussion. No you can’t claim that the facts are irrelevant. You see white doves, true doves are as much a pet as parakeets, so for Cheney to kill them is like Frist killing cats.
The point is Karl Rove is lying on stem cells. This is despicable. Lies are always despicable. Liars are despicable. Ignorance is understandable but deliberate ignorance is not.
Lets see where were we. I thought Tony Snows comment “George Bush thinks murder is wrong” strange as George Bush does not seem to have taken any steps before in order to preserve life. He did not review executions in Texas to be sure that no one is wrongfully executed. There are other things he did not do. But this was a digression I am not going to spend too much time on. Why? I am not really prepared and can’t bothered.
Put a red cherry on top of good ideas and shove it down the voter’s throats.
Thats against my principles. I don’t believe in force or coercion. I will explain ideas repeatedly and clearly, but I won’t resorts to lies or threats or scare tactics. Why? Its not ethical and there are things more important than winning.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:42 pmIMPEACH
July 19th, 2006 at 3:44 pmBar you do so cute an impresion of a rapid Republican. you should do a comedy act somewhere. I would love to have you speak during the desert course. Make sure that the food served is soft, ice cream or cheesecake in case other people start taking you seriously.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:45 pmI’m surprised the Tribune called Rove on it.
They usually march in lockstep with Bush.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:53 pmRandy: Could you please reveal the source of your research on Clear Evidence that Adult Stem Cells have more potential than embryonic cells? Exact name of the studies, and authors of these scientific studies please. Every realiable/accurate/scientific study I’ve seen, says it’s to the contrary. Where did you get your information? I hope not Rove, because he was lying. Dr. Bob Brogna M.D. P.C.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:23 pmAlthough your conclusions are correct, your citation is inaccurate. The letter you cite was sent to President Bush in 2001, not last year!
July 19th, 2006 at 4:33 pmFor all those who claim that frozen embryos are viable life that needs their protection, I pose this question…
If your house was on fire, and you had to choose between saving your frozen embryo, or your 10 year old daughter who has diabetes, which would you save? What if it was embryo vs Wife? Mother? Father?
I’m pretty sure most of us would agree on the answer.
Our Idiot-in-Chief and his cronies will say and do ANYTHING to keep the base happy, and that includes condemning millions of americans in the future to suffer through these illnesses, simply so the neocons can have a prayer of a chance of winning an election in November 06!
July 19th, 2006 at 4:38 pmI had the experience of watching my mother in law slowly deteriorate, become immobile, and eventually die from Parkinson’s Disease. It was a slow and undignified death. I would not wish that end on my worst enemy. It’s hard for me to grasp that a President’s dogma allows him to prefer a slow, ugly death of so many, to use of embryos that are to be destroyed anyway. Compassionate conservatism? Compassionate for whom? Certainly not for those enduring incredible pain that might be cured by stem cell research.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:44 pm[...] It is no surprise that the president would use all means possible (and what isn’t possible for this president) to shoot down a bill because, according to WH press secretary Tony Snow, “he thinks murder is wrong.” Certainly, GOP candidates and all the Karl Rove lackeys are prepared to take full advantage of this unpopular view from an already unpopular, lame duck president. [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 4:45 pmBush doesn’t realize that stem cell research might one day be able to help a brain dead idiot, like himself.
July 19th, 2006 at 5:27 pm[...] As reported by Think Progress, Karl Rove –”told the Denver Post that ‘recent studies’ show researchers ‘have far more promise from adult stem cells than from embryonic stem cells.’” This provoked the people at Think Progress to do some digging. Here’s what they found: The Chicago Tribune contacted a dozen top stem cell experts about Rove’s claim. They all said it was inaccurate. So who wrote the “studies†that Rove was referring to? [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 5:28 pmRove and Bush are just showing the world the dangers of human-animal hybrids that will surely come about if scientist are able to do what ever research they need… after all we have a human-chimpanzee hybrid squatting in the whitehouse right now, and look at all the mess it’s made.
July 19th, 2006 at 5:45 pmKarl Rove a liar? Why next we’ll learn he outed a CIA agent and is involved with Ralph Reed.
July 19th, 2006 at 6:20 pmNow this is great. I checked out the poll from the International Communications Research cited by Mr. Steve Ertelt and guess what? It was a poll commissioned by the Secretariat for Pro-Life Activities of the U.S. Conference of Catholic Bishops. The question cited only mentions destroying embryos and gives no information about what stem cell research is for or what the benefits might be. There are dozens of polls you can find on Google that show widespread public support of Federal funding for stem cell research from both major parties.
Anyone can create a poll designed to give you the numbers you want, just ask Frank Luntz. It’s important to know the actual questions asked. See for yourself:
http://www.icrsurvey.com/Study.aspx?f=usccb_5_31_06.htm
July 19th, 2006 at 6:33 pmThe decsion to oppose embryonic stem cell research is grounded in the beliefs of the religious right and therefore is a concession by the pres. to ensure their votes come Nov. The founding fathers had it totally right when they insisted on separation of church and state. Its a damn shame it hasn’t remained that way.
July 19th, 2006 at 7:15 pmWhere is the pharmacuitical money now that it really needed?
July 19th, 2006 at 7:21 pmWho gives a shit what Bush/Rove think? Their best thinking gave us the biggest deficit in history, a premptive, illegal war that is costing us billions of dollars and thousands of American lives, the hate and distain of virtually every major country in the world and a track record of lies and power plays that are reducing rather than enhancing American citizenship. Those miserable SOBs should be impeached, prosecuted and incarcerated. I would not be surprised at all if, at some future foreign visit that some country doesn’t nab Bush and prosecute him for war crimes. He is not a fool. He’s propagating the conservative Republican agenda and it is costing us our country. He MUST be stopped.
July 19th, 2006 at 7:30 pmRove is a liar and a criminal.
Bar-Fly, Democrats won’t lose this election season … unless there is election fraud committed by repubs again. Get Diebold out! Demand paper trails!
July 19th, 2006 at 7:37 pmUnfortunately, as much as I disagree with Rove on other issues, I would have to agree with Rove’s statements about adult stem cells. Please visit our web site and click on the Latest Development tab to see the scientific progress being made with adult stem cells. The problem is that embryonic stem cells researchers tend to promote their area of research wihile disseminating misinformation about adult stem cells.
July 19th, 2006 at 7:43 pmHere’s the url:http://www.moragabiotech.com/latestdev.htm
July 19th, 2006 at 7:44 pmI’ve always said, religion has held mankind back, because of their stupidity and ignorance.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:24 pmI’m beginning to think Karl Rove is a overfed, self-serving, draft-dodging, cold-hearted, overpaid, lying, hypocrit . . . but I could be wrong.
Ertelt: your link at Lifenews.Com is dead or restricted.
Embryonic stem cells aren’t harvested for research. They’re the unused by-product of invitro fertilization. I agree there are ethical considerations in using them. No one is ignoring the ethics. But we live in a culture that consistently asks us to decide between one life and another, a soldier for a citizen back home, civilian families for 3 abducted soldiers, an entire country for SUV owners and so forth. In the case of embryonic stem cells, the ones that aren’t used are destroyed. destroyed. So, ethically, I think using cells that would otherwise be destroyed for even the promise of finding a cure for diseases that are killing millions is an acceptable.
Opponents liken the use of embryonic stem cells to “playing God.” The ship has long sailed on that feeble argument. Politicians have been playing God for centuries. They still are. Neither they nor their henchmen, like Igor I mean Rove, have a moral leg to stand on.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:27 pmI suppose it’s too late to call a Caption Contest…?
July 19th, 2006 at 8:34 pmWhy are we discussing this while the Middle East is going up in flames? Typical Rovian distraction.
July 19th, 2006 at 9:15 pmJust a typical “right-to-lifer” remark. Keep every embyro alive until it becomes recruitable at 18–then march it off to die in a foreign land to support some neocon’s sick dream
July 19th, 2006 at 9:19 pmAt least 70 % of Americans support stemcell research. This cowardly in-action by this house of “representatives” is a blatant demonstration of why they should be dragged out of office, if necessary. They DO NOT REPRESENT AMERICA AND THEY DO NOT REPRESENT THEIR CONSTIUENTS!!!! Please, please…Republicans and democrats alike, remember this come November. Let us, the People, take back our government. Let us, the People, take back our country. I want things close to where they were when America was a stand up, much admired and depended on leader of the world. Let’s take it back, America!
July 19th, 2006 at 9:26 pmDoes anybody still respond to Randy. For those that do…Update: He is DUUUUUMB.
July 19th, 2006 at 9:31 pmDoes anybody have a problem with thousands of blastocysts lying frozen in some nether world? Should public resources be used to subsidize sub-fertile people.
July 19th, 2006 at 10:12 pmStop the freezing!
I wonder who paid for all those families who attended Bush’s veto cermony to come to Washington. I will bet we did. Boy, was that choreographed propaganda.
July 19th, 2006 at 10:26 pmIt seems like its a point of honor with the bushites not to say anything unless it’s a complete lie.
July 19th, 2006 at 10:49 pmHis performance at the G8 was and absolute embarrasment to all Americans. His veto of the stem cell bill shows how out of touch he is.
July 20th, 2006 at 1:17 amFloating ethics serve the Bushies well— again. It seems that political expediency is more important than facts or true ethical thought. If our president sees an ethical problem with embryos being exploited or wasted, why doesn’t he ban fertility treatments which destroy embryos? Because that wouldn’t sit well with the far right. or for that matter, neurotic white people who want to have children, and just can’t imagine adopting some unwanted child instead. Conservatives (read: Republicans) want to be allowed to engage in doublethink on stem cell research, like they do on the more basic tenets of “decency” and “morality.”
July 20th, 2006 at 1:42 amPerhaps Adult stem Cells appear to be more useful at this time. Embryonic Stem Cell research has not had neither the time nor scientific development as Adult cells has been engaged. It is simply obvious if yrs of research effort is provided the same opportunity as Adult research. It seems very promising.
July 20th, 2006 at 2:38 amFor those who hold sanctity of life ( and God) to reuke Embryonic stem research is asIrans Mullah imposing religionous law on their people. These same individuals would want a child for a mother so badly that they would leave out their God to aquire a “test tube baby”. Ironic, immature and unreasonable on all accounts. After all, it will be researched in other countries. There may come a time when these very same people flee to one of these countries in the future when they are in need of the medical technology that Embryonic cell research has advanced to in controlling certain health problems.
Ignore the dumb right wingnuts and consider this. With embryonic stem cell research in the hands of private corporations, who makes the profits? It isn’t Bush/Rove listening to the f***ing Rapture Right–they’re listening to their real base: corporatists!
July 20th, 2006 at 5:00 amOf course Rove had to get involved.
July 20th, 2006 at 8:00 amThe guy is defending the position of an IDIOT.
Another luddite moment for King George.
[...] Rove has been caught lying (big surprise) about stem cell research in order to try and justify Bush’s veto of the bill. Sorry, Karl…the people just aren’t behind you on this one. [...]
July 20th, 2006 at 9:07 am[...] Karl Rove (stem cell expert): “…recent studies show researchers have far more promise from adult stem cells than from embryonic stem cells.†The Chicago Tribune contacted a dozen top stem cell experts about Rove’s claim. They all said it was inaccurate. “White House spokesman Ken Lisaius on Tuesday could not provide the name of a stem cell researcher who shares Rove’s views on the superior promise of adult stem cells.” [...]
July 20th, 2006 at 9:35 amJuly 20th, 2006 at 11:35 am
I propose they turn over 1 embryo for every innocent soldier killed in Iraq/Afghanistan. They want to talk about morality? There isn’t a damned thing in Iraq worth the life of one American soldier. There are many things worth the ‘life’ of an embryo that is going to be otherwise discarded
July 20th, 2006 at 4:12 pmAn awful lot of warped thinking here in this thread.
That all of you hate Rove is just a given. As you hate Bush. But why not face facts? Tax money for this research is not the will of the people. You may want to dress it up as pity for our suffering victims of disease and catastrophe, but all it is is Pie In the Sky.
Because it’s federal money you figure, ”What’s wrong with throwing money at these problems? I’ll FEEL GOOD, after all; having done my part.” But you did nothing. You only demanded funds to cover for your own indifference to other peoples’ suffering. Once the guv’mint pays, you’re absolved of all cares. This is hypocrisy.
I’m nearing seventy and I’ve seen this all before in the past. When we had our nickels and dimes scrounged from us, and were promised these would lead to the ”Cure for Cancer,” billions were lost on the researchers; and new billions diverted to destroy Joe Camel. It’ll happen again, with the embryo-harvesting delusions. Nothing good can ever come of such a corrupt premise.
July 20th, 2006 at 6:06 pm#123, You are absolutely right. The wingnuts in my family actually voice this theory: abortion is bad because if we abort babies, we won’t have 18-yr-olds to fight wars for us. This is their “PRO-LIFE” stance.
July 20th, 2006 at 6:45 pmWow! I can’t believe what I’m reading. I thought Americans were basically good, intelligent human beings. But it seems not. Many of you are just worried about not having to die a horrible death, and you aprove of “Frankenstein-ish” science to save you from it. Life isn’t all about you. Sometimes suffering is involved and it’s not all bad. We all started out like those embryos. People can adopt them and they do–look up “snowflake children.” Bush was flanked by them when he vetoed the bill. They should neither be discarded OR manipulated for your own benefit. We should come up with an acceptable alternative. I have faith someone will, but not any of you.
July 20th, 2006 at 10:04 pm[...] What we’re really witnessing is a calculated pandering to ignorance. I don’t think Bush is pandering, though — I think he really believes each blastocyst is a human child crying out for a uterus. He’s swallowing whole the dogma spoon fed to him by Rove, especially. (Rove, who has been distorting the science to begin with — and we know Bush won’t actually read anything for himself, so whatever Rove says, Bush takes as gospel.) [...]
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July 25th, 2006 at 12:07 pmhttp://www.cwfa.org/articledisplay.asp?id=4805&department=CWA&categoryid=life
an article with some pro adult stem cell sources.
The persons above who merely name called Pres. Bush or Karl Rove do not help the argument. (Ad hominen!!!)
July 25th, 2006 at 11:06 pmWatch “The Boys from Brazil” a movie made in the 70’s about the real life Nazi Eugenics Dr. Mengele who clones lots of baby Hitlers…
Type in “eugenics” and see who his respectable predecessors in America and Britain were!!!
Do more research on the internet. Stem cell research overall has far to go, but so far adult stem cells have recently been manipulated to be “pluripotent” i.e. 9as I understand, quite adaptable, the biggest criticism against them.
Do you even THINK this is about left over embryos? Do your research!!!
It’s about another Eugenics control of the human race, a keystone in the Nazi ideology…
July 25th, 2006 at 11:12 pmThe apparent Rovian/Bushite irrationality about stem-cell research is clearly part of the “para-Republican” strategy. Put the benefits of stem-cell R & D into the hands of private interests who will reap immense (and, as usual, unrighteous) profits from the world’s sick and needy while strictly controlling who gets the help.
Perhaps this is a place to make an observation which may not be original but which I don’t encounter, anywhere. I call it: DEFINING KARL ROVE.
His first name, “Carl (or Karl)” is an archaic word from Old English, deriving from germanic Old Norse: karl, a man or freedman (a landsman no longer “bound” to the land). It meant “a man of low birth”, implying not merely a common person but one of ignoble “birth” or nature, a person of low aim and narrow or selfish aspiration. STRIKE ONE.
Karl’s surname, Rove, uncapitalized (rove), is an intransitive verb meaning “to wander or travel continually with no fixed destination or fixed base.” That’s STRIKE TWO. Rove can also be taken, along with “rived”, as past-tense for “rive”: “to split or tear apart violently”, as to split up wood with an axe or shatter stone with a sledge-hammer. Or to divide a population for conquering and controlling it. That’s STRIKE THREE.
Mr. Rove, it seems to me, has defined himself, perhaps unconsciously, and but acts out that definition. Mr. Rove deserves to be put out of every position he enjoys and out of every game he participates in, except perhaps a seat at a table of folks doing no more than play gin rummy. “Rummie” and the rest should be there, too.
July 28th, 2006 at 8:11 pm[...] Please find the entire story here. [...]
January 8th, 2007 at 1:35 pmI think that all stem cell research should be prohibbted (illegal)
January 8th, 2007 at 4:53 pmits wrong and your killing lots of innocent lives!
Alternative Infertility Treatments
Your blog makes very interesting reading. I’m sure others will think so too I look forward to reading their comments.
March 19th, 2008 at 4:39 pm