Bush on Stem Cell Veto: ‘These Boys and Girls Are Not Spare Parts’
Bush on Stem Cell Veto: ‘These Boys and Girls Are Not Spare Parts’
Moments ago, Bush made a statement at the White House discussing why he vetoed a bill expanding funding for embryonic stem cell research. (The media was barred from covering the veto itself.) Bush explained, “these boys and girls are not spare parts.” Watch it:
An embryo is not a boy or a girl. It’s a cluster of about 150 cells smaller than the period at the end of this sentence. The embryos funded by the bill Bush vetoed were “created for the purposes of in vitro fertilization…which are spare or in excess of clinical need and in every single case are slated for medical waste.â€
Only about 10 percent of embryos are adopted — the rest are disposed of. Had Bush signed the bill into law, they could instead be used to develop potentially live-saving cures for millions of people.
Transcript:
PRESIDENT BUSH: Yet we must also remember that embryonic stem cells come from human embryos that are destroyed themselves. Each of these human embryos is a unique human life, with inherent dignity and matchless value. We see that value in the children who are with us today. Each of these children began his or her life as a frozen embryo that was created for in vitro fertilization, but remained unused after fertility treatments were complete. Each of these children was adopted while still an embryo, and has been blessed with the chance to grow up in a loving family. These boys and girls are not spare parts.
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What about those damn Bush twins?
July 19th, 2006 at 3:00 pmHow did they get here?
Bush: We all began life as a small collection of cells.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:04 pmPLC1: Some of us evolved into much more, rather than just stayed that way.
PLC2: And some of us belong in a cell.
Wait, I am confused. Which one is Bush, and which ones are the little kids he paraded around?
Congradulations to the BOYS AND GIRLS who were adopted. But Bush still needs to answer why he isn’t allowing the ones that will be thrown away to be put instead to healing other humans. You know, the humans he apparently cares so deeply about.
The caring must only be there because he needs boots on the ground to fight his illigal, and immoral wars.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:04 pm“unique human life, with inherent dignity and matchless value. ”
And what are the thousands of Iraqi’s, The 2600 US soldiers, the Lebonese civilians …
What are they sir?
Answer that Mr. “Holier Than Thou”.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:06 pmWhatever happened to “of the people, by the people, for the people”. 67% of ppl, ironically what Bush’s approval rating almost falls it, agree that stem cells should be used to help the ill. This whacko is out of control. When will someone stand up to his shit?
July 19th, 2006 at 3:06 pmOh, Georgie your so righteous. What about the kids in Iraq that our bombs are making into spare parts?
July 19th, 2006 at 3:07 pmsorry my mistake – i meant disapproval rating – in #5 above.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:08 pmBush “These boys and girls are not spare parts.”
No, now they’re garbage.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:09 pmgo to irag and get their stem calls
July 19th, 2006 at 3:10 pmhail to the Chief
July 19th, 2006 at 3:11 pmIf stem cell research would have cured his hangover he would have had Uncle Dick and the Turd Blossom cutting the contract for Haliburton to start sending the stem cells to the White House. That drunk needs some medication. Rat poison might help if he didn’t thrive on it
July 19th, 2006 at 3:12 pmTypical non-sequitor. “These (real) boys and girls are not spare parts” implying that, therefore, the undifferentiated stem cells are not spare parts either. Giving each equal weight.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:13 pmMaybe liberals should start a foundation that supports stem cell research instead of wasting your $$ spreading anti-Bush propoganda. If history is any guide, it is probably $$ better spent.
With WW3 erupting in the Middle East and the right-wing base coming home to their roots (however disenchanted they might be), Democrats have no chance in hell of taking back either House.
I can’t wait to see the ads the GOP puts up against the Dems. You won’t know what hit you.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:13 pmActually, these embryo’s ARE spare parts. Since they weren’t used for implantation, they’ll go to some medical waste incinerator or landfill. But hey, that’s so much nicer than using the stem cells for medical research.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:14 pmSTBSO, give it a rest.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:15 pmsuck baby skull – you suck, asshole.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:15 pmWeirdo logic.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:15 pmYou are disgusting. And you value life so much, why are supporting this nasty president who is sending scores of Americans to die in a conflict we SHOULDN’T BE INVOLVED IN.
Go away.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:16 pmBut it will be a christian burial at the landfill?
July 19th, 2006 at 3:16 pmToo damn bad YOUR baby skull wasn’t sucked out…
July 19th, 2006 at 3:16 pmor maybe it was, and your tiny baby brain was damaged…
Is that there are haters like STBSO in states who will be casting votes for candidates who have the same position as Bush on stem cells. Example – in Michigan, Dick DeVos who is challending Gov Granholm is a Bush clone in a lot ways – including stem cells. I think we should be watching these people, making their positions known, and holding them accountable.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:19 pm#13, Hey, Suck…, read the polls lately, you idiot!
July 19th, 2006 at 3:20 pmI think #13 (our friend Suck …) is Ann Coulter. Uses the same illogic, the same sick sense of “humor,” the same hit-and-run type of attack, the same joy at giving Dems advice but not following the same advice.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:22 pmSpreading anti-Bush propaganda is free. The foundation is a great idea. It would be even better if republicans like you were turned away from getting the cures that are found.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:22 pmYou can read the full trascript of Presient Bush’s remarks, by clicking here. Also, as far as polls are concerned:
The most recent poll on the subject, conducted by International Communications Research in mid-May, finds 48% of Americans oppose federal funding of stem cell research that requires destroying human embryos. Just 39% support such funding and another 12 percent had no position. The ICR survey found 57% favored funding only the research avenues that do not harm the donor. Just 24% favored funding all stem cell research, including the type that involves destroying human embryos.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:23 pm#24 – it would eventually balance out since the left kills their young and looks to eat them on research. Hitler would be proud.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:23 pmEach of these human embryos is a unique human life, with inherent dignity and matchless value.
Then the president added: “I just hope these embryo childs don’t grow up to be crimimals ’cause then we will have to lethally inject them with stuff. That was fun when I was Guvner of Texas. heh heh. So grow up good embryo kids. Save the blistercysts.”
July 19th, 2006 at 3:26 pm1.3 million abortions per yr for almost 50 yrs. they are killing their own party faster than they can defect to the GOP
July 19th, 2006 at 3:27 pmlets impeach the president for Hijacking
our religion and using it to get elected
Neil Young
July 19th, 2006 at 3:28 pmLiving with war
2006
Why do Liberals continue to whine about the public support for this while at the same time decrying the same argument when used to oppose gay marriage?
Can we please have a little consistancy from you when your knickers get in a wad?
SHEESH!
July 19th, 2006 at 3:28 pmI love how the trolls pull their “facts” out of their ass.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:29 pm[...] As ThinkProgress also notes: Bush made a statement at the White House discussing why he vetoed a bill expanding funding for embryonic stem cell research. (The media was barred from covering the veto itself.) Bush explained, “these boys and girls are not spare parts.†Watch it: [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 3:29 pmBush would rather veto an America embrio than veto a Palestinian TRUE
July 19th, 2006 at 3:30 pmIf you don’t know – ignore #30. Seriously. No debate is possible with this freak, and all you’ll get is a mouthful of the same old shit.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:30 pmtoo bad dumbashell was not one the 1.3 mil
July 19th, 2006 at 3:30 pmSo, the federal government cannot be involved in medical research on stem cells because to do so would be financing the taking of a life, and all life is sacred. And if the federal goernment does not finance the research, the cells will die, but that’s ok, because the federal government didn’t do anything to save their lives.
It seems to me this “all life is sacred” argument would make it criminal to discard these cells and would require that every fertilized egg be implanted and allowed to grow full-term. After all, if destroying these cells is murder, it seems like fertilization clinics are guilty of mass-murder, are they not?
July 19th, 2006 at 3:31 pmPerhaps Bush’s daughters might want to incubate some of these thousands of extra embryos? (after they are through with their tours of duty in Iraq of course-where they are forced to kill and maim in the fog of preemptive war) Can’t believe that someone uses the handle “suck a baby’s head” -wow-they are really dumb arne’t they? PRetty scary-
July 19th, 2006 at 3:32 pmWe ALL must live as america christo-facists church people whether we like it or not. Its either their religious way or the highway. Next stop YOUR genitals.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:32 pmI think he/she was
July 19th, 2006 at 3:32 pmWow, I see the conservative misinformation about “partial birth abortions” that never happen is being pushed into the comment section quicker than usual today. That one guy agreeing with himself should really go adopt some of those discarded embryos instead of wasting his time on some progressive website…
July 19th, 2006 at 3:32 pmThe idea here is each blastocyst is a human, I am assuming complete with a soul. This leads to the interesting question of what happens to the extra soul when tetragametic chimerism happens.
I guess the next step is to ban all IVF techniques, since
July 19th, 2006 at 3:33 pm
To see the politics of the stem cell debate explained with visuals and how the Bush argument is ultimately an absurd manipulation of the facts…link here:
http://www.thoughttheater.com
July 19th, 2006 at 3:33 pmThats it, I am going into business. Similar to the mood ring, I intend on encapsulating stem cells and placing them on a ring. I will send them to the children of Afghanistan, Iraq, Syria,Lebanon and Iran if I raise enough $. Now drop a bomb on their heads Dumbya the duncider, I dare you.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:34 pmWe should chop bush up and use him for spare parts. This is a slap in the face of all americans that have a illness that potentialy can be cured by stem cell research. Anyone that is against stem cell use BETTER show me some footage you protesting fertility clinics in the 70’s/80’s/90’s, when of course the clinics threw unused embryo’s in the GARBAGE. The minute someone whats to salvage the discarded embryo’s, conservitives (following thier retarted and evil leaders words) threw a fit like a spoiled child, kicking and screaming on the floor.
The simple fact is fertility clinics for decades have been destroying embryo’s by the thousands by throwing them away in the garbage. I ask is that immoral? Is saying millions of lives now immoral? A worthless human being who is backed by only 30% of the population, is making laws that 70% of the population dosen’t agree with.
BUSH IS WORTHLESS!!!! His family is worthless!!!! And finally his supporters are WORTHLESS!!!
July 19th, 2006 at 3:37 pmWon’t somebody think of the blastocysts?
July 19th, 2006 at 3:37 pmSo when does anyone think Jesus will be going on the dollar?
July 19th, 2006 at 3:39 pmYou can read the full trascript of Presient Bush’s remarks, by clicking here. Also, as far as polls are concerned:
The most recent poll on the subject, conducted by International Communications Research in mid-May, finds 48% of Americans oppose federal funding of stem cell research that requires destroying human embryos. Just 39% support such funding and another 12 percent had no position. The ICR survey found 57% favored funding only the research avenues that do not harm the donor. Just 24% favored funding all stem cell research, including the type that involves destroying human embryos.
Comment by Steven Ertelt — July 19, 2006 @ 3:23 pm
Here’s some background on this poster. Note that it’s criticism from a Christian website.
http://www.theamericanview.com/index.php?id=324
At least we can trace Mr. Ertlet back to the particular region of the Twilight Zone he’s operating from. As far as the “Ann Coulter sound-alike” STBSO, I doubt they have IP addresses in Hell.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:40 pmThem there scientists days are noomberered. They thinkeses there smarters than wez christian folk.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:41 pmSo when does anyone think Jesus will be going on the dollar?
Comment by dlet — July 19, 2006 @ 3:39 pm
You’re almost right, the new dollar bill will have Reagan and Jesus
July 19th, 2006 at 3:42 pmwonder how the bushliar-criminal classifies all the boys and girl seedlings that die as eggs and sperm without ever getting together…wow…wingnut heads exploding.
according to Arlen Specter there are currently over 400,000 frozen empbryos in the country. A total of 128 have found live adults willing to raise them as boys and girls.
its cognitive dissonance of highest order that an alledged human being could order an illegal, unnecessary invasion directly causing the deaths of tens of thousands of people without a second thought, but would go to such lengths to try to preserve unwarranted, extra embryos.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:44 pm.
He’s a brave, wise man. Afterall,
Americans thought it was a good idea to invade Iraq.
Americans also want the gov’t to pay for Frankensteinian science.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:44 pmI appreciate a man whose actions speak clearly louder than his jumbled words ever could.
STUPID, BACKWOODS MO-RON.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:46 pmI guess next Bush will want to create little embryo orphanages, or maybe the GOP will force women to incubate these little boys and girls.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:46 pm“it (stem cell research) crosses a moral boundary” per George W. Bush. And what does George W Bush know of moral boundaries other than the fact that he crosses them every day of his life!
July 19th, 2006 at 3:46 pmFrankensteinian science.
aka what dumb people think post 1830s science is.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:46 pmYou’re almost right, the new dollar bill will have Reagan and Jesus
Comment by onthefence
Don’t forget Elvis.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:46 pmcalling frozen, unwanted embryos boys and girls will surely play well in wingnuttia, but will play the opposite in the reality-based community. The more wingnuttia comes out of the closet, the faster mainstream America will be repulsed by it/them.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:47 pm.
#51. Brave men also go to war when drafted. They dont go AWAL from the reserves. And then attacks his oppents brave war service. This is not the resume of a brave man.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:48 pm#28 ct
1.3 million abortions per yr for almost 50 yrs. they are killing their own party faster than they can defect to the GOP
Who’s talking about abortions? Address the issue here. We’re talking about stem cells and blastocysts. Ever see a blastocyst? Look at the period at the end of this sentence. That’s about the size of it. Are those blastocysts really “boys and girls” like Bush says? If you think so, then let’s run with that one. There are about 400,000 little boys and girls in freezers right now around the country. They aren’t all going to be implanted in a uterus before they rot away in the freezer. Are you going to save them? Is Bush? Are you just going to let them rot? Why don’t you find a womb for each and every one of them? Or are you just going to let them die?! It’s really cold in there, too. How do you think that makes those boys and girls feel? Why don’t you go liberate those little boys and girls from the freezers, you heartless bastard?!!!!
July 19th, 2006 at 3:48 pmDR. BENWAY – excellent point! However, it seems wasted on folks who for some reason feel disposing of excess blastocysts as medical waste is somehow more ‘moral’ than using them to cure disease.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:48 pmAmericans aren’t qualified to have an opinion about this.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:50 pmIf you are looking for something funny about this topic, check out these links:
I Am Proudly Anti-Cure
and
We Must Stem the Tide
Better to laugh than cry, I suppose.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:50 pmJuly 19th, 2006 at 3:52 pm
for him to be seen chomping food and talking crassly at the same to a dignatory precludes him from discussing a deep and profound subject such as stem cell research
July 19th, 2006 at 3:52 pmThe bloodthirsty regime’s public morality crusade escalates in direct proportion to their complicity in crimes against humanity.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:55 pmI love the caption at the beginning of this post where Fox/Not News headlines with Bush saying “that we all begin life as a small collection of cells”.
Well that may be true but in Bushes case I think the majority of his cells ran down his father’s leg at his moment of inception.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:56 pmActually, If I remember my Human Anatamoy/Physiology classes, the fertilized egg has yet to develop any organs, let alone genitalia, so referring to them as “boys and girls” is a little premature (pun definetly intended).
July 19th, 2006 at 3:57 pmWhen Bush and his fundies can look down a microscope and tell which blastocyst is a boy or a girl, I will support his veto.
July 19th, 2006 at 3:58 pmThis is a great thread. The haters crack me up. “More to be pitied than scorned.” as my grandmother says. Don’t waste any real effort on them. Sore losers – well, they will be when they wake up after E-Day 06 and realize they have stoned themselves into the dark ages with their blind idiotic hater-speak. They will be lost in a world without their hater-leaders in Congress… like little blind moles… LMAO!!!
July 19th, 2006 at 3:58 pmThe War on Science continues.
Ignorance is bliss, so you better think long and hard if this decision makes you happy.
Oh, wait… ignorance implies a lack of thinking…
Think longer and harder. Just because you don’t understand it doesn’t make it false. (see evolution, stem cells, global warming, spherical earth, etc)
July 19th, 2006 at 3:58 pmThe next President will not veto.
Why aren’t we discussing Lebanon?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:00 pmWealthy Americans will stream abroad in the near future to “the developed world” for a cure. Everyone is jealous of us Mericans heeheeheeheeheeheheee
July 19th, 2006 at 4:02 pm#61 – Speak for yourself… Oh wait, you ARE…
July 19th, 2006 at 4:03 pmIt’s embarrassing to our country to have such an unintelligent president, who doesn’t even understand the fundamentals of biology.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:03 pmWhy aren’t we discussing Lebanon?
Comment by Destroy the DLC
Why are there blastocysts to save there too?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:03 pmDemented Bush Follower
This is a great thread. The haters crack me up.
[snip]
Comment by LMAO — July 19, 2006 @ 3:58 pm
LMAO,
Do you hate liberals?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:05 pmAmazed — July 19, 2006 @ 4:03 pm
I honestly plan to stay home in 06 and 08. I vigorously press people to vote independent. And once Bush is gone I will not continue to blog. I, like many Americans, am more involved in the political process because I am deeply ashamed someone that stupid could be our President. It is terribly wrong.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:09 pm#76 – are you being deliberately obtuse or is that your version of funny?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:13 pm#78 Can you answer the question without changing the topic?
Seems a fairly common tactic of the right, hmm?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:14 pm#77 – Please don’t stay home! Allen is just like Bush – possibly worse. We need every vote to keep Bush, his clones, and their policies OUT – for good.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:15 pmAnyone on death row should be screaming at the top of their lungs: “You can’t murder me. I am a fully matured blastocyst.” Maybe someone will get the idea.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:16 pmhaters=nasty GOPers like the trolls in this thread. ok?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:16 pmI will never vote for Democratic foreign policy. EVER.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:17 pmLMAO,
I think I may have misinterpreted your position, and if so, I apologize.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:17 pmBob- no prob. I may not have been clear. But for the future – when I say “haters” I think we’re in agreement about the definition.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:19 pmBecause Arab life is cheap to this administration, and then we wonder why they hate us.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:21 pmNo, No, Mr president. We stem stem the tide, note tied the stem.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:21 pmLMAO,
Absolutely!
July 19th, 2006 at 4:21 pmthis deserves a repost, from the rove thread… my emphasis ;
Perhaps I’m thinking about this all wrong, but I think Bush’s stance on stem-cell is very consistent with and motivated by his usual support of corporate interests… it doesn’t surprise me at all.
Here’s what I’m thinking… the data from federally funded research is sort of public domain… the data are published in journals and anyone can take the data and attempt to develop technologies from it…this promotes healthy competition (a small innovative biotech firm can be on an even playing field with a large multinational corporation) and we the people, who foot the bill for the research in the first place, benefit.
However… if we do not allow federal funds to support stem cell research, the research will be done (and I feel quite confident it is being done as we speak and Bush is stalling) by large corporations with the resources to do this (remember the pharmaceutical companies that this administration has been so supportive of??) Data from that research is proprietary. This allows those companies to develop their own technologies from that data with minimal competition.
And further with fewer competitors… they probably will get to charge more for whatever technologies they do develop. And that is why Bush has no interest in actually outlawing stem cell research. This is just another example of this administration helping out their corporate buddies. Does this make sense??
Comment by KirinRain — July 19, 2006 @ 1:41 pm
yes, of course…
July 19th, 2006 at 4:22 pm#83 Its good to know your vote depends on only one topic. We wouldn’t want to have to think about the implications and complications of all policies…
And what does foreign policy have to do with this thread anyway? Good job trying to obfuscate and distract… troll.
The topic at hand is today’s veto – keep to it if you are so keen on just thinking about one topic at a time.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:24 pmJust think of where this country would be if Bush hadn’t made it past a stem cell and ended up in an incinerator himself? Oh, the endless possibilities. Let’s get a thinking individual in the White House next term. Ignorance is dragging this country down and putting us years behind the rest of the civilized world.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:25 pmEvery speeerm is saaaaacreeed. Eeeeverry speeeerm is gooooddd
July 19th, 2006 at 4:28 pmIiif a speeeerm iissss waaaasteed Gooood geeeet’s quiiiiete iiirate.
I have acollection of potential boys and girls that are struggling to survive. If one of you religious freaks could please post your home address I will be glad to forward the Kleenex.
Please give them all a loving home, and be sure and babtize them since they are full of sin until you do.
Sorry I couldn’t name them all…………..
July 19th, 2006 at 4:28 pmThis is not about republicans or democrats, it’s about what’s best for humanity. Let’s keep political ideologies out of this and respond as members of the human race. Ignorance, finger pointing, and name calling will not accomplish anything. Is everybody with me on this?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:30 pmtony snow 7/18:
“There is nothing that makes embryonic stem cell research illegal. It simply says that the federal government will not finance it.
As you know, there are ongoing efforts in some states, including, I think, California and Massachusetts, to use state money for it. And I dare say if people think that there’s a market for it, they’re going to support it handsomely.
The simple answer is he thinks murder’s wrong.”
there iit is – it ain’t murder if it’s state funded, or if there is a profit!
July 19th, 2006 at 4:30 pmINVEST! INVEST!
What? Nobody thought to distract Bush with something shiny like a flask of vodka? Dammit.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:30 pmMurder Wrong? Wait, wasn’t he governor of Texas at one time? Talk about state funded murder. What a hippocrite!
July 19th, 2006 at 4:31 pm#94 I am with you!
But my desire for rational discussion will not stay the deserved smackdown the ignant trolls deserve. Do not mistake my tolerance, patience, and understanding for weakness.
Besides, the trolls will say they are with you regardless…
Wait…
Nevermind. I’ll just be quiet.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:34 pmYeah… they aren’t spare parts… they’re now medical waste, thanks to the moron-in-chief.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:35 pmThe general pro-argument here for embryonic stem-cell development is that “Bush is a moron,” “Republicans are anti-science,” and “Iraq was wrong.”
Sadly, the more intellectual arguments aren’t much better, and tend to skip over the bioethical implications.
1. Is it right to use human life for our own purposes w/o consent?
2. How long before embryos are created solely for purposes of destruction?
3. Would we then justify fetal farming?
These can all be justified from a utilitarian perspective, however, the dignity of the individual requires us to seriously consider these questions before acting rashly. Note the dilemmas re: organ donations. Could we save more people by paying for organs (or simply taking them)? Of course. Is that the kind of society we want?
Also note the ethical dilemmas re: the use of research done by Nazi doctors. Many people (and not simply “anti-science” Republicans) objected to the use of this information because it was done on unwilling victims. The thought was that allowing the use of this type of data would encourage future unethical experiments.
So in closing, yes, Bush may be an idiot and Iraq may be wrong — but are there other reasons to cringe at the thought of creating and experimenting on the form of life that is the first step toward personhood?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:37 pmThe fairy tale crowd hard at work destroying the world! And the chance to cure something as horrible as alzheimer’s thrown out the window.
That mind set just makes me want to puke. Yeah leave it in gods hands you fools. the fairy tales have done wonders with the environment, world hunger, etc etc….
I keep forgetting it teaches you not to think !
BUSH I HOPE YOU GET ALZHEIMER’S
July 19th, 2006 at 4:40 pmThis may be a pretty basic question, but I’ll go ahead and ask it anyway.
If the Bush administration refuses to provide federal funding for embryonic stem cell research, what’s to stop us from looking elsewhere for the money?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:41 pmJoe baby,
the cells in question are not now nor will they ever be capable of independant life, or thought. they don’t have any organs, form, or anything that would define them as anything other then a handful of cells. Under current situations, fetal farming as you put it is unecessary. there are over 400,000 blastoycysts availiable in Fertility clinics, with 90% being unused and eventually destroyed. If you wish to put a stop to in vetro fertilization then do so. You might find a stiff resistance to that idea. The moral arguments that you present, don’t really work in this context. You apply a slippery slope logic, and then talk about nazi’s.
I realize, that you believe that concieness begins at inception, however science and brain wave monitoring does not carry out your supposition.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:42 pmSo, when our elected REPRESENTATIVES won’t help (read: represent) us, we have to find a rich guy who will… I guess that’s what we’re left with now.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:44 pmLame Duck
November
July 19th, 2006 at 4:45 pm#100
1. Its not “human life”. 40% of all fertilized eggs do not attach to the uterine wall and are flushed during the next muenstral cycle. You are holding our scientists to a standard the “Intelligent Designer” didn’t choose to meet.
2. They already are. Its called invitrofertilization. Extra ovum are fertilized to help increase to odds of pregnancy. What do you suppose happens to the rest? Are you proposing we stop invitrofertilization?
3. Wow. You went way out there for that one. I don’t know what could possibly justify “fetal farming”. Except maybe to help boost military recruitment numbers – after all they farm our highschools for 18 year old fetuses every day don’t they?
You aren’t the only one who can use exaggeration and hyperbole. Discuss it if you are going to discuss it.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:46 pmbob’s – see 95
July 19th, 2006 at 4:51 pmOk Shrub, read “My Pet Goat” to these boys and girls and let’s see if they have any questions afterwards.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:52 pmI couldn’t believe what Tony Snow said in the White House press conference. He first says Bush believes it is murder to use embryonic stem cells in scientific research. Then he says that embryonic stem cell research isn’t illegal and private companies are allow to do this. So basically, private companies are allow to murder. I believe they, the Bush administration, haven’t figured out a way to privatized the research so that they can make all da money.
July 19th, 2006 at 4:53 pm“fetal farming”
July 19th, 2006 at 4:54 pmthe newest derogatory-intended meme
“The general pro-argument here for embryonic stem-cell development is that “Bush is a moron,†“Republicans are anti-science,†and “Iraq was wrong.†Comment by Joe Baby”
Those aren’t arguments, those are facts. You NeoCONazis are always too DUMB to tell the difference.
“1. Is it right to use human life for our own purposes w/o consent? Comment by Joe Baby”
Life, or cells? Human cells are used all of the time in skin grafts, organ transplants, through blood donations, and elsewhere. Women sign consent forms for embryo tissue just like any other tissue.
Were you always this RETARDED in your NON-ARGUMENTS, or is because you were drowned in Crack and Meth as a fetus?
“2. How long before embryos are created solely for purposes of destruction? Comment by Joe Baby”
Why do you think this doesn’t already happen? There are lots of reproductive studies that occur on artificial embryo fertilization that have no intention of ever being implanted. Oh wait, you were probably so STUPID you didn’t know that – right?
“3. Would we then justify fetal farming? Comment by Joe Baby”
Ah the latest LIMBAUGH/ROVE nonsense. Lets respond with several different answers. Although it’s quite obvious you aren’t smart enough to process any of them, I’ll supply them to your dumba$$ person anyway.
1) Why is farming necessary? Fertility clinics have 200 THOUSAND embryos that will be destroyed if not used already. You prefer to let these be destroyed than to help give life to someone with disease? That’s rather hate filled, short sighted and unchristian of you. DUMBA$$.
2) Why is it wrong to farm a fetus, if it’s not wrong to create them for fertility clinics knowing that will probably be destroyed? Are you saying that fertility clinics shouldn’t be able operate, and that people should just have to live without artificial implantation?
3) Why is it even relevant to have this discussion. You’ve never heard of passing a law that limits the quantity and methods of managing fertility clinic embryos? This is all stuff that can easily be legislated. Your DUMBA$$ slipery slope is as irrelevant as you are STUPID, and you’re pretty STUPID, so that should tell you something.
“Also note the ethical dilemmas re: the use of research done by Nazi doctors. Many people (and not simply “anti-science†Republicans) objected to the use of this information because it was done on unwilling victims. The thought was that allowing the use of this type of data would encourage future unethical experiments. Comment by Joe Baby”
If you can’t tell the difference between experimenting on a PERSON versus an undifferentiated clump of cells, then you really are one of the world’s biggest dumba$$e$. And you guys are anti-science because you’re stupid, and religious zealot idiots. Heck your own bible says that abortion is nothing more than an assault on property, and it’s only considered a civil crime if it is done by someone as part of an attack on the woman. DUHHH.
“So in closing, yes, Bush may be an idiot and Iraq may be wrong — but are there other reasons to cringe at the thought of creating and experimenting on the form of life that is the first step toward personhood? Comment by Joe Baby”
Yes Bush is an idiot, and Iraq was a mistake, but so’s your insane post.
Actually your sperm is the first step towards personhood, and I bet you flush him down the toilet all of the time without remorse – which by the way is listed as a SIN in the bible, even though abortion isn’t.
You people are aways so STUPID, don’t you ever read anything other than hate literature?
July 19th, 2006 at 4:57 pmJoe Baby,
July 19th, 2006 at 4:59 pmThe more fundamental issue is whether cells in a petri dish constitute human life.
Judd – you’ll agree you were a cluster of “It’s a cluster of about 150 cells smaller than the period at the end of this sentence,”? Thank goodness Mother Judd wanted children….
July 19th, 2006 at 4:59 pmJoe Baby
July 19th, 2006 at 5:05 pmBy using your argument, perhaps we should ban organ transplants because someone might try to kill someone for their organs. Nobody is arguing for unrestricted use of embryonic stem cells (hey, progressives/liberals are “accused” all the time about putting restrictions on free enterprise).
Bush seems to think that our soldiers, the people of Iraq and Lebanon are no better than spare parts when it comes to furthering his dreams of world domination. What about all of the boys and girls who have died because of his socipathy?
July 19th, 2006 at 5:06 pmOkay – We’re talking hypotheticals and arguments here…
We know the ones that may come from “the right”: Hitler, Moral implications, the ever-present “Where does it end?” (see gay rights, immigration, etc) argument (and the answer is IT DOESN’T END)
We know the ones that may come from “the left”: Disease cures, Gonna be trashed anyway, Capitalism meets corruption, etc.
Now here’s one from way out in the future (AKA Crazyland) (but not as far as one might think): Immortality or at least the defeat of the Aging Process… Think of the research that has been hobbled…. The thing people don’t get is that the pace of everything is speeding up. If progess is not made, then you will be Left Behind (all puns intended). I have a feeling I was born 50 years too soon. Too soon to get the hell off this rock… but that’s a different topic.
July 19th, 2006 at 5:07 pmAn embryo of that size has no gender for six weeks minimum.
These embryos could easily be gay — have they thought of that?
They could be Muslims.
Poisoning all the children of Iraq with TENS OF THOUSANDS OF TONS of half-strenth Uranium, unpurified water, and lack of refrigeration,
and then protecting these piles of cells the size of flea eggs.
That’s par for Bush’s Manchurian Global presidential-implant.
Somebody should have taken a preemptive ERASER to the GFH Bush pencil dot — saved 100,000s (and now with this veto, millions) of lives.
July 19th, 2006 at 5:07 pmIn nature, these blastocysts are a pre-embryonic state. A blastocyst that grows into an embryo may or may not affix itself to the uteran wall. 40 to 60% of these embryos are lost naturally. If you want to look at it in religious terms, God allows the destruction of 40 to 60% of these embryos, naturally. Therefore, if we are to believe that god is merciful and god is good, these tens of millions of embryos must not be seen as “alive†in the eyes of god.
In addition, I think if you check Genesis, you will find that man was alive when he first drew breath.
Comment by Bluedog49 — July 19, 2006 @ 5:06 pm
Ouch, that’s not going to settle with the zealot religious right!
July 19th, 2006 at 5:11 pmGreat post, tho
Bluedog, see my #100 above.
Will experimentation end w/ these embryos?
Or will embryos then be created solely for purposes of destruction, which would technically not violate the first ethical problem?
And if embryo experimentation is allowed, is fetal farming (Katy, feel free to choose your own language — I just used the language from yesterday’s bill that passed 100-0) also justified in terms of saving lives, or is that seen as unethical, and if so, why?
And I’d beg to differ w/ the comparison to in vitro. That process creates embryos for purposes of life, not for purposes of destruction. Noted, however, that the in vitro process has put us in the situation we are now — all the more reason, IMO, to think this latest issue through before acting blindly.
You don’t have to be Pat Robertson to find something special about an embryo. Before our blog-posting days, we all began as an embryo and hung out in a uterus. I guess I have a romantic attachment to same. ;-)
Again, is there any reason to give us pause on the matter, besides the guy who vetoed it?
#118
PLC,
No, I’m not advocating banning organ transplants — rather, I believe our current managed system of transplant distribution proves my ethical point. That is, we do not have an inane right to use another for our own purposes. As a society we have placed restrictions because the situation w/o restrictions would assuredly be monstrous.
July 19th, 2006 at 5:14 pmJoe Baby…I have one question.
Should marital intercourse involve protection? (I’m talking oral contraceptive, condoms, diaphram, “pull out”…etc)
July 19th, 2006 at 5:19 pmIf these undifferentiated cells are “human life” then the following civil rights and traditional mores are required:
July 19th, 2006 at 5:21 pm1. Tax credit at conception, not birth
2. “Funeral” at expiration of cells
3. Term “mother-to-be” only used for woman sexually active and not actually pregnant
4. Age of people determined from date of conception, not birth
5. Insurance companies required to provide “life insurance” at conception
6. Additional welfare payments given to pregnant woman on assistance from the date of conception
7. Family medical leave act in force from date of conception for any and all medical appointments for both parents to accompany their “child”
8. Social security numbers assigned at conception
9. Census data to include blastocysts in count of family members
So in closing, yes, Bush may be an idiot and Iraq may be wrong — but are there other reasons to cringe at the thought of creating and experimenting on the form of life that is the first step toward personhood?
Comment by Joe Baby
I certainly agree with you, Joe. Especially about that “idiot” part. And speaking of personhood I hope you will join with me to insist that all those miscarried embryos are given names, funerals, and at the least, a headstone to mark their passing, instead of having their mothers flush them down the toilet like so much waste.
And about all those thousands of little sperm-beings that are denied the opportunity to live because only one can fertilize an egg. And its just so sad, really, watching them just being thrown away in a used condom by some backseat, redneck conservative instead of being allowed to reach their full potential.
Its really heartbreaking, you know?
July 19th, 2006 at 5:23 pmI just don’t understand. If we don’t use the stem cells in research, they are going to be destroyed anyway. So why is that okay, but not for research? It’s crazy and it drives me crazy that no one asks those idiots that question.
July 19th, 2006 at 5:27 pmOf the 2,500 or so American troops killed in Iraq, a little over 75% (2,026) were between the ages of 21 and 31. Assuming that each of these individuals was capable of reproducing and bearing one child, their deaths also represent the loss of 2,026 potential human beings.
I’m wondering if this fact bothers those of you who are troubled by the moral ramifications of embryonic stem cell research.
July 19th, 2006 at 5:29 pmNo, I’m not advocating banning organ transplants — rather, I believe our current managed system of transplant distribution proves my ethical point. That is, we do not have an inane right to use another for our own purposes. As a society we have placed restrictions because the situation w/o restrictions would assuredly be monstrous. Comment by Joe Baby
Actually, you proved MY point. You worry about “farming” embryos, as if we can’t have restrictions on getting those embryo stem cells. Further, why don’t we just ask those blastocysts if we can use them for research? (rhetorical, smart-aleck question)
July 19th, 2006 at 5:33 pmI shall repeat. With the In Vitro process, one “injects” a sperm into “good” eggs. Of the, let’s say, 10 that are “fertilized”, only 2-3 are surgically implanted back in the uterus. The remainin 7 are frozen…to be used to try the procedure again, or to be “flushed”. Why would you defend the veto (for research), and have yet to address the flushing? And if one is against the “flushing”, then I assume, one is against in vitro pregnancies, correct?
July 19th, 2006 at 5:34 pm[...] I see that The Decider has issued his first veto. What’s with “these boys and girls are not spare parts”? Boys and girls? [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 5:45 pmWhy would you defend the veto (for research), and have yet to address the flushing? And if one is against the “flushingâ€, then I assume, one is against in vitro pregnancies, correct?
Comment by Pharm
I got an idea. Instead of flushing them, maybe we could insert them into a host. Maybe a monkey or chimp or chicken or something. I mean, the poor little boys and girls Bush mentioned would at least have a chance at being born instead of being being flushed.
But that would open up another can of worms for the right-to-lifers: who should be allowed to raise them and give them values: the chimps or the state?
July 19th, 2006 at 5:48 pm#113 Joe Baby
The general pro-argument here for embryonic stem-cell development is that “Bush is a moron,†“Republicans are anti-science,†and “Iraq was wrong.â€
Sadly, the more intellectual arguments aren’t much better, and tend to skip over the bioethical implications.
1. Is it right to use human life for our own purposes w/o consent?
2. How long before embryos are created solely for purposes of destruction?
3. Would we then justify fetal farming?
The general pro-argument for embryonic stem-cell development is not being expressed here. It’s been expressed ad nauseum elsewhere. Moron Bush and anti-science Republicans don’t get it. Worse, they don’t see how ridiculous it is to obsess over a cluster of cells and at the same time be dismissive of any concern over real honest-to-goodness human lives as innocent men, women, children, senior citizens, toddlers, infants, and even gasp fetuses are being tortured, riddled with bullets, burned alive, and blown to smithereens in Iraq. And all that would not be happening to those Iraqis, there would not have been 6,000 Iraqis killed in the past two months, now up to 100 a day, if it weren’t for moron Bush and those same anti-science Republicans.
I think the problem is this. Right-wingers are incapable of dealing with real lives. They can only deal with symbols and so-called principles. They can get all whipped up over this concept they have of tiny little humans being harvested for parts, which simply isn’t happening nor is anything like it going to happen. But, at the same time you can’t get them to even think about the real anguish, real intense pain, real heartbreak, and real loss experienced by real people, because those right-wingers aren’t part of the reality-based community.
Is it right to use human life for our own purposes w/o consent?
Using an awfully broad brush, aren’t you? That describes an awful lot of things that the right seems very comfortable doing. Use? Human life? Purposes? Without consent? Would you distinguish between “use” and “dispose of”? Would you not consider “dispose of” to be worse than “use”? “Human life” covers a very broad spectrum, not just those little tiny cells you’re so concerned about. Are some purposes better than others or are they all about the same? Which do you think would be a more noble purpose, to help ones favorite corporation make billions of dollars with war profiteering or to try to cure life-threatening and incapacitating diseases? Take your time. And who in the Republican-controlled government asks consent for anything anymore? The president won’t even ask consent from a lapdog Congress when it’s required by the Constitution.
How long before embryos are created solely for purposes of destruction?
Where is the demand for embryos and for what purpose? You’re being very selective with your application of the slippery slope. This gets back to that matter of principle vs. real life. You get hung up on symbolism and you’re willing to sacrifice real lives to protect a symbol orto prevent something that is nowhere near an inevitability.
Would we then justify fetal farming?
Well that’s just sliding further down the slope. The hypothetical slope. The one that doesn’t exist anywhere right now, unlike the millions of real people whose lives could be saved or whose intense suffering could be relieved by embryonic stem cell research.
July 19th, 2006 at 6:25 pmWe have a madman in the White House…
http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/contributors/312
What is his problem?
July 19th, 2006 at 6:37 pmMillions of human blastocysts fail to attach to an ovarian wall each day and are thus discarded. Stem cell research is but a dint in this pall of embryonic sacrifice. The only solution is to ban human reproduction and the Bush administration should take immediate action on this problem. Spaying infants at birth, world wide, would solve this problem as well as global warming (In about 120 years, max).
July 19th, 2006 at 6:39 pmAnd don’t forget – no more wars.
July 19th, 2006 at 6:41 pmI just hope that someone Bush loves(if he is capable of love) suffers from a disease that can be cured by this research. He can tell his sufering loved one how he protected the frozen embryos.
July 19th, 2006 at 6:52 pmBreaking news:
July 19th, 2006 at 6:52 pmCongress failed to override the veto
[...] Update: Bush has used the power of the pen to crush a biparitisan effort to reverse his stem cell policy. Interestingly, the media was not allowed to photograph or film this great moment in history, his first veto. [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 6:52 pmJimb… well done. It’s hard work combating manipulative/broad-brush right-wing statements with facts and reason, but it must be done.
July 19th, 2006 at 6:55 pmmy EPIPHANY:
go back to #89, read it – i know it’s lengthy, but ya gotta…
ok?
it’s all about PRIVITIZATION… PRIVATE INVESTMENTS
WILL YEILD PRIVATE RETURNS AND PROFITS.
The WEALTHY will be HEALTHY.
it’s not about “life”… it’s about profits…
July 19th, 2006 at 7:09 pmIs Bush aware that he will be Cheney’s heart donor?
July 19th, 2006 at 7:49 pm[...] I see that The Decider has issued his first veto. What’s with “these boys and girls are not spare parts� Boys and girls? [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 7:56 pmRe #140–jimb — July 19, 2006 @ 6:25 pm
Excellently well put! They can’t argue w/these things b/c it would take too much good sense and some actual thought, not just Faux talking points.
IMHO, you are correct about the theoretical vs. the actual.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:02 pmFrozen embryos:
10% snowflake babies
90% garbage pail babies
It’s all good with GWB…
July 19th, 2006 at 8:04 pmHow sad it is that a moron like George Bush is the one making this decision on such a complex issue. If it wasn’t for his famous last name the toughest decision he’d ever be charged with making is how many ketchup packets to reorder at the Hardee’s he night manages. And I’m not even sure he’s qualified for that job either.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:10 pmsmall collection of cells, yes, mr. bush which is the only amount you operate from.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:41 pm“These boys and girls are not spare parts.”
And now, thanks to GWB’s war on terra, thousands of our troops need spare parts.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:44 pmOK, let’s turn the arguement around. IF we figure out how to turn adult stem cells – what GW is supporting here – into embryonic stem cells, that is cells that are dedifferentiated to the point that they can recreate any human organ then the Prez is supporting the creation of ARTIFICIAL blstocysts that can be allowed to develop into EMBRYOES. Not possible currently, but the idea that we can produce an omni-potent cell from an adult stem cell means that we can eventually produce artificial embryoes – maybe this Prez is smarter than we give him credit for – artificial neocon manpig warriors without civil rights to fight Iraq.
July 19th, 2006 at 8:57 pm[...] As a followup to the last post, I thought I’d share an amusing tidbit about Bush’s veto. He explained his veto against the stem cell bill by saying These boys and girls are not spare parts.” The trouble I have with this, is that the embryos used in stem cell research aren’t boys or girls. Embryos used for stem cell research are taken from fertilized embryos that are 1 week old. Source. But embryos don’t develop sex until around the 8th week of gestation. Source. Okay, some of them probably would’ve grown up to be boys and girls, but that doesn’t change the fact that (a) they aren’t currently boys and girls, and (b) many of them are fertility clinic leftovers subject to destruction anyway. If he really wanted to stop destruction of embryos, then maybe he ban fertility clinics. Let’s see how far that gets him. | | [...]
July 19th, 2006 at 8:58 pmSave the stem cells and kill the American soldiers and Iraqis. I guess we know where his priorities are. Insanity!
July 19th, 2006 at 9:00 pmThe guy is clueless. He is confusing cloning with stem-cell research. I really wish we could elect a guy with a higher IQ than us.
July 19th, 2006 at 10:06 pmUhmmm … guys and gals? Embryonic stem cell research isn’t illegal. Anyone who wants to set up a lab and do it, is perfectlly within their right to do so. Bush’s veto means they can’t get FEDERAL FUNDS to do so … that’s it.
But … since everyone here has such confidence in the, what was it again, “potential life saving, disease ridding, Grandma no longer forgets who she is” opportunities that embryonic stem cell research affords, I suppose all those horrible drug companies will be lining up to reap the windfall of capital that comes when one can slow or eliminate a disease (you know, like they get from vaccinations (which, shhhh, don’t work)). What’s that … none of them are interested …. but, but, but what about Grandma?
Excuse my snark folks, but if embryonic stem cell research had all the potential that’s continually stated here and elsewhere, companies would be killing themselves to invest. Do you have any idea how much money they could make with a cure for diabetes? Or Alzheimers? Heck, they don’t even need to cure it … just slow it down … continual income stream!! Funny, and this MIGHT be coincidence, that all the major proponents of embryonic stem cell research are (wait for it) WITHOUT FUNDING OPPORTUNITIES FROM ANYONE BUT THE US TREASURY … hmmmmm …
Follow the money, honey. You liberals have excellent Halliburton sniffers … try this one on for size.
July 19th, 2006 at 10:45 pmBush, incredibly ignorant. And the worst of it is that he likes being that way.
July 19th, 2006 at 10:49 pmI can’t fathom how he will not agree to microscopic cells being used to help living beings, yet he sees the bodies of those killed from his imperialistic folly in Iraq and he can still sleep at night, mistakenly believing he makes wise decisions.
He’s the “decider” right?
#163 – Marie,
July 19th, 2006 at 11:00 pmW does not see the bodies – he ignores and conceals them.
Yor’re right – no one is supposed to see the bodies of ours coming home, nor are we supposed to see the bodies of the Iraqis – they’re only “collateral damage.”
July 19th, 2006 at 11:04 pmBush is one deranged madman.
#162 Giacomo
Uhmmm … guys and gals? Embryonic stem cell research isn’t illegal. Anyone who wants to set up a lab and do it, is perfectlly within their right to do so. Bush’s veto means they can’t get FEDERAL FUNDS to do so … that’s it.
Excellent point! That’s right, it’s not illegal. But, Tony Snow might disagree with you where he says “there is a burgeoning business — as you know, a lot of people getting rich already — in this kind of medical research.” So, it’s not illegal and federal funding isn’t needed, because there are investors out there trying to make a buck.
What was the other thing Tony Snow said? Oh yeah: “The simple answer is he thinks murder is wrong, and he has said.”
To sum up, it’s not illegal, investors are making money on it, and it’s murder.
Umm…okay.
July 20th, 2006 at 12:19 am#162 Giacomo
Uhmmm … guys and gals? Embryonic stem cell research isn’t illegal. Anyone who wants to set up a lab and do it, is perfectlly within their right to do so. Bush’s veto means they can’t get FEDERAL FUNDS to do so … that’s it.
Excellent point! That’s right, it’s not illegal. But, Tony Snow might disagree with you where he says “there is a burgeoning business — as you know, a lot of people getting rich already — in this kind of medical research.” So, it’s not illegal and federal funding isn’t needed, because there are investors out there trying to make a buck.
What was the other thing Tony Snow said? Oh yeah: “The simple answer is he thinks murder is wrong, and he has said.”
To sum up, it’s not illegal, investors are making money on it, and it’s murder.
Umm…okay.
July 20th, 2006 at 12:21 amHitler was anti-abortion too, because he wanted babies to grow up to be more soldiers to die as cannon fodder in warfare! Bush does not care about human life at all, so his embryo protection is just to please his extreme far-right goofball supporters!
July 20th, 2006 at 1:57 am162, yes stem cell therapy has that potential. It’s not just Grandma doesn’t forget anymore. It’s regrowth of amputated parts, walking for spinal cord victims, no more diabetes, new livers and lungs and hearts as old ones wear out. It is dementia treatments, no more dialysis, no more cystic fibrosis, it is potentially new bodies for old worn out bodies. Government funding puts dollars into startup costs and defrys costs while no profits are being made, ie the research stage before there is a product to sell. For example, the reason we can drive NY to LA is because of government funding, no company would have spent the money on privately developing a road system like we have, ditto the only reason we have airlines – government bailouts/incentives, ditto electricity in the TVA, ditto family farms – subsudies, etc. When government funding is withheld it delays development, in this case to the tune of the death and suffering of millions.
July 20th, 2006 at 6:42 am[...] From Think Progress:Moments ago, Bush made a statement at the White House discussing why he vetoed a bill expanding funding for embryonic stem cell research. (The media was barred from covering the veto itself.) Bush explained, “these boys and girls are not spare parts.“Boys and girls. [...]
July 20th, 2006 at 8:23 amSo, it’s not okay to use embryos in medical context to save lives and cure diseases, but it is okay to destroy them so that they cannot be used in medical context to help save lives and cure diseases?
Bush will meet Karma, as he himself is clearly afflicted with a serious brain disease – stupidity.
July 20th, 2006 at 8:45 am[...] Bush On Stem Cell Veto: ‘These Boys And Girls Are Not Spare Parts’ [...]
July 20th, 2006 at 9:33 amWell, seeing as how they have XX and XY chromosomes, they are definitley male and female. Whether you want to say boy or girl, that’s up to you.
July 20th, 2006 at 10:38 amI see Americans have rushed to adopt these embryos. About 400,000 frozen embryos are out there, and fewer than 200 have been adopted out. That’s 5 100ths of a percent!
July 20th, 2006 at 10:39 amIf they are going to end up incinerated or in a landfill, wouldn’t it be kinder for them to help another human being?
Oh, wait, I forgot: this is the administration that dealt so kindly with Katrina victims, soldiers in need of proper armor, Angela Merkel’s personal space, etc. etc.
#163, Bush isn’t the decider, Cheney is!
July 20th, 2006 at 11:29 amHaven’t we all learned by now, that whatever BushCo says, the EXACT opposite is true. What really happens to the superfluous fertilized eggs was not even addressed. GWB called them “unique Human life… with matchless dignity…” that they then throw in the trash. Those who support GWB also seem to ignore that aspect as well. And it is not that stemcell research cannot be done, it is that the Federal Government will not provide any money for it. This Administration has been privatizing everything they possibly can, for the last 5 1/2 years. Just look to Iraq for the examples of that. Every decision is based on not what is best for America, but how to profit from it. This is no different. ‘Big Pharma’s’ fingerprints are all over this one. CURE diseases?!? Where is the profit in that? Unless of course, they own the ‘cure’. Recently, it was revealed that the Federal Government had approved the testing of a ‘Blood substitute’ being developed by a pharmaceutical company. The only problem was that they did not tell the patients that they were being experimented on. And THAT was what had been approved by the Government. After this became public, the programs were ’suspended’. The error that Bush supporters continue to make, sadly, is to believe that BushCo really cares about them, and shares their values. They don’t, and they never will. They will just have Frank Luntz out there, polling ‘focus groups’ to find the most persuasive way of phrasing something, to maximize the emotional appeal. It is ALL about the money. The only ‘Almighty’ they worship is the ‘Almighty Dollar’. That pretty much sums it all up. All decisions are made by finding out how best to profit from it. Tragic.
July 20th, 2006 at 11:43 amGovernment funding puts dollars into startup costs and defrys costs while no profits are being made, ie the research stage before there is a product to sell. For example, the reason we can drive NY to LA is because of government funding, no company would have spent the money on privately developing a road system like we have, ditto the only reason we have airlines – government bailouts/incentives, ditto electricity in the TVA, ditto family farms – subsudies, etc. When government funding is withheld it delays development, in this case to the tune of the death and suffering of millions.
This is a patently false argument …
1) The US Highway system (which, by the way, many abhor) was government funded INFRASTRUCTURE, the creation of which is one government function. Secondly, how much profit is gained from Interstate 40 (NC to CA) … none … aside from roads like the NJ Turnpike or the NYS Thruway, roads have no inome stream. Private funding requires an upside … private companies can’t create toll roads (and states shouldn’t require such except to pay for the road).
2) The airlines were entirely private when they were created … unlike roads, airlines have the possibility for income production. Fiscal mismanagement and terrorist attacks have cause government bailouts (Amtrack as well), but these ventures weren’t driven or created with public money. The economy depends on all manners of public transport which is why the government bails them out. Big difference.
3) Again, family farms are subsidized by the government because, economically, the country wouldn’t have enough food otherwise. These controls and supports attempt to maintain a constant supply of basic necessities.
So … looking at all these, let’s compare embryonic stem cell research …
1) Is the opportunity for revenue available (unlike public works and infrasctructure)? Most certainly. Drug companies have major startup & sunk costs in every drug … that doesn’t chage their willingness to research because they understand the potential of success. Embryonic stem cell research is NO DIFFERENT. If the potential is GRAND the willingness to finance such will also be GRAND. That it is not, should be significant to you.
2) Is embryonic stem cell research in need of a bailout (a la the airline industry)? No. The benefit of the airline industry is “full and realized” … the benefit of embryonic stem cell research (ESCR) is “hypothetical and theorized”. The government WOULD jump in to fund ESCR were this not the case. Given the “moral” issues that are also inherent to many Americans, the basis for funding must be weighed heavily with the status of current research and the availability of other options. There are still other options to ESCR and results are still HIGHLY hypothetical. Private funding should be sufficient if these hypothetics are well grounded.
3) Is ESCR fundamental to our economy ( the way the food supply is). Not even close. In fact, there are MANY, MANY, MANY outlets for money to go first before we turn to public funding of ESCR.
Government funding does not delay development. Extremely high costs with sketchy and unproven benefits delay development. If the promise is there, companies will fund the research (notice how much they spend on cancer, AIDS, diabetes, vaccine, drug research). Start-up costs are incidental if the return on investment has vast potential.
How about this … would you be willing to channel funds from other research to fund ESCR. How about global warming studies (sorry, National Defense is a different line item … nice try)? Or national disaster prevention? The fact is, there ARE many places where government money should and can go FIRST. Let the private sector handle the research that has a financial benefit (unlike global warming research) and lets keep our tax dollars to things no private company would touch. If the private money isn’t there, the potential return is likely not ……. Cash is King (as many, many, many of you constantly point out).
July 20th, 2006 at 11:49 am[...] Moments ago, Bush made a statement at the White House discussing why he vetoed a bill expanding funding for embryonic stem cell research. (The media was barred from covering the veto itself.) Bush explained, “these boys and girls are not spare parts.†[...]
July 20th, 2006 at 11:54 am#177-Giacomo, were you aware that the Defense Department takes 25% of the profits from the sale of the ‘Pink Ribbon’ postage stamp, that is used to fund Breast cancer research? Where there is a will, there is a way.
July 20th, 2006 at 11:59 amCyra
iacomo, were you aware that the Defense Department takes 25% of the profits from the sale of the ‘Pink Ribbon’ postage stamp, that is used to fund Breast cancer research?
Get your facts straight
http://www.bcaction.org/Pages/GetInformed/FAQPolitics.html#Q7
So … they don’t “take the profits” … they get 30% of the funds raised to fund their cancer research program. The DoD isn’t just about the “tools of war” …
July 20th, 2006 at 12:15 pmSince President Bush doesn’t believe in “Spare parts for boys and girls†there are plenty of them in Lebanon. Just check the neighborhoods and apartments after the bombing.
July 20th, 2006 at 1:04 pm[...] Think Progress [...]
July 20th, 2006 at 5:49 pmIf they want to be all holy and say that all life is sacred, my response is: what have they done for animals lately? Hmm? How about ‘let’s try to drill for oil in the arctic wildlife refuge, that’ll be fun!’ My ass…*nothing* is sacred to these people, except maybe the All Mighty Dolla. :P
July 20th, 2006 at 7:00 pm@#162
Excuse my snark folks, but if embryonic stem cell research had all the potential that’s continually stated here and elsewhere, companies would be killing themselves to invest. Do you have any idea how much money they could make with a cure…
[snip]
Follow the money, honey. You liberals have excellent Halliburton sniffers … try this one on for size.
Okay. I’ve got a pretty direct analogy for you… it should immediately clarify why your argument doesn’t hold up. If it doesn’t, then at least it will for anyone else who hasn’t figured it out already – anyway, here’s the analogy, try to keep up:
The Internet subsisted for years on government funds, connecting research labs important university resources together, among other things – it was called DARPAnet /and later ARPAnet – Funded by the US Government for years using federal tax dollars before it got off the ground and became essentially self-sustaining (in the private sector) – look what a waste that was… the Internet is pointless, isn’t it? Isn’t that why corporate sponsership was almost entirely non-existent in the first decade or so of it’s existence?
July 21st, 2006 at 3:31 am[...] So I can hardly imagine what kind of miserable lives the children of Bush’s GOP science-hating sock puppets are going to lead now that the President has yoked them to an unbearable burden: “These boys and girls are not spare parts,” says Dr. President. With one fell swoop of his dusty, unused veto stamp, Dr. President has both saved humanity from curing itself of congenital diseases and relegated 90 percent of these frozen shake-and-bake “lives” to “death” in LANDFILLS. But what of the horrible fate that will befall the 10 percent that have the misfortune of being thawed out and adopted? What is this? Another D on your algebra test! I suppose you were just too busy “hanging out” with your little skateboarding friends to study again, huh? Playing with your little Gameboy was just too important. Do you have the highest score in the school now, huh? Well that’s just fine. Go ahead, waste your life playing around and amount to nothing if you want to. God forgive me, when I just think about all the people out there today who we made sure got Parkinson’s Disease so that you could have the blessed opportunity to hang out all night smoking the reefer with your good-for-nothing friends! That’s just fine! Oh no, go on, go out and skate off into uselessness with your homies, as long as you come home occasionally to wipe the drool off my chin and change my diaper when I’ve got Alzheimer’s, that’ll be almost as good as if we’d used your stem cells for something valuable instead. But before you go, come talk to your grandfather on the phone, I just can’t bear to tell him myself that we can’t do anything for his Hodgkin’s because little Tommy had to grow up and be a BUM! A BUM I TELL YOU! [...]
July 23rd, 2006 at 4:21 pmRepublicans are crazy, they have no clue what the words coming out of their mouths mean. Bush is taking this “your killing a baby” thing so far it is absoultely asinine and rediculous if they actually had any idea. What idea you ask Republican: The embryos being harvested are harvested when they are blastocycts, which means they are made up of about 100 cells. The human body is made up of 100 Trillion cells. If that doesn’t spell it out for you, try to explain that this 100 cell blastocyst already has a spirit, a soul? Since it has no heart or no brain and only 100 cells vs. a 100 Trillion cell organism do you think it’s more likely that it does have a soul or does not have a soul? If you said more likely it does not have a soul you are correct because you understand the mega gap between the number 100 and 100 Trillion. How much more absurd does the difference have to be before everyone on earth understands that these Republicans are crazy people. 100 does not equal 100 Trillion it’s not even close, maybe the difference is an indicator of the scope of the madness Republicans suffer from, I think so.
July 24th, 2006 at 11:35 pmBush didn’t finish his sentence. He meant to say:
“Boys and girls are not spare parts
November 6th, 2006 at 12:02 pm…until old enough to go into the military”
“These boys and girls are not spare parts,†he said of the children in the audience. “They remind us of what is lost when embryos are destroyed in the name of research. They remind us that we all begin our lives as a small collection of cells.â€
November 22nd, 2006 at 3:42 amSince President Bush doesn’t believe in “Spare parts for boys and girls†there are plenty of them in Lebanon. Just check the neighborhoods and apartments after the bombing.
December 7th, 2006 at 8:16 amI think everyone should mind their own damn business and leave Bush alone he is doing the best he can to help our country if you think you can do a better job then run for president dumbasses
January 24th, 2007 at 3:15 pmI say everyone needs to mind their own damn business and leave Bush out of this and quit criticizing him so bad. He is doing the best he can to protect us even all of you that are against him. He is doing his best to help our country and if you think you can do better then run for president until then keep your mouths shut and let Bush do his own job.
January 24th, 2007 at 3:19 pmall look at all the poor angry people who like to kill others.
at least he gave them a chance to live, instead of killing them off.
lets kill your children off and see how you like it.
you are all obviously heartless..
oh and to whoever made the comment about the people that are VOLUNTEERING to be in Iraq…
thats right VOLUNTEERING, there is no draft suckers….
so stop complaining..they are there because they want to be.
my gosh you guys are sickening…
and did you know that Bush has given more money to Stem cell research that ANY president…..
the only reason he vetoed was because of all the ones that were dying and being thrown away…
look it up…
March 1st, 2007 at 5:13 pm