50%.
By on Jul 25th, 2006 at 11:57 am
50%.
Percentage of Americans who believe that Iraq had WMDs when the United States invaded, up 14% since February 2005.
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as the IQ of Americans goes lower.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:00 pmRepeat a lie often enough…
July 25th, 2006 at 12:01 pmThis is the most ludacris thing I’ve read in a very long time. I would love for our resident billy goat’s gruff brigade to answer the following question for me:
If Sadaam had WMDs at the begining of the war, do you honestly believe that he would go to the trouble of moving or concealing them from the invading forces or would he, as he did in the past, use them on the invading American forces?
The level of cognitive dissonance in this country is appalling these days.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:02 pmOld Abe was right again! You can fool some of the people all of the time.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:04 pmWho are these idiots….oh I just saw one. There’s another…
July 25th, 2006 at 12:04 pmThere’s got to be something wrong with that poll. It also says that 64% believed saddam had ties to al qaeda. Or we live in a nation of idiots.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:05 pmA Seattle PI editorial
Do as I say, not as I do
GREG JAMES
GUEST COLUMNIST
Teddy Roosevelts they’re not.
Rush Limbaugh’s recent incident at the Palm Beach airport in which he was caught with a questionable prescription of Viagra may be another clue in figuring out just exactly who the neocons and their most vocal supporters really are. Remember, Limbaugh is the tough-talking Vietnam War avoider who spent countless hours railing about President Clinton for alleged sexual misconduct. Could it be that the three times divorced Limbaugh was more envious than outraged when it came to Clinton?
You don’t have to be a psychologist to see a predictable pattern with this administration and its most vocal conservative supporters: They project one thing and do another. Or more to the point, they try to project a manly Teddy Roosevelt “rough rider” image; in reality they are a bunch of overweight middle-aged men who mostly avoid wars and real action in favor of sending others to do the dirty work.
In many ways, I suspect this is at the heart of why Iraq is going so wrong, and why our country is in such turmoil. Maybe the U.S. is finally waking up to the scare tactics, orange alerts and right-wing “talkers” and coming to terms with who they really are.
Recently, Rep. John Murtha took presidential adviser Karl Rove to task for his “cut and run” comments and called a spade a spade. He didn’t mince words as he described Rove as a fat Washington-based spin doctor who sits in an air-conditioned office and has no problem pushing a war in which he’d never die. Thank God someone finally found the guts to go after the cheerleaders and actually point out what they really are — sissies who talk tough but do little.
From President Bush all the way down, a quick look finds the “big talkers” in charge and promoting a kind of “do as I say, not as I do” agenda. As a veteran myself, it’s hard not to be outraged by this crowd. Bush, who has so vocally pushed the war in Iraq, was himself a cheerleader (yell king) in college and avoided Vietnam with a cushy job in the Air National Guard.
Vice President Dick Cheney took numerous deferments from the draft and, as the poster boy for the National Rifle Association and tough guy hunters, shot a friend in the face at close range while blasting pen-raised quail in Texas. Limbaugh, along with Bill O’Reilly, Sean Hannity, Mike Medved and the majority of right-wing radio’s most vocal “tough talkers” also fall squarely into the “did not serve” crowd.
The most offensive thing about this bunch is they have no problem attacking people such as Murtha, Sen. John Kerry, former Rep. Max Cleland and retired Gen. Eric Shinseki (the guys who actually did fight in Vietnam) while they sit around sipping lattes in their protected, mostly white, upper-class enclaves.
As with Limbaugh and his constant attacks on Clinton, you have to wonder if this isn’t actually some type of perverse psychology playing out on a national scale where the sissies actually tear into the tough guys because they’ve developed sharp tongues as a response to their own perceived shortcomings. (In this case, a lack of real courage.)
It has often been suggested that if men could get pregnant, abortion would be a sacrament.
In a similar vein, I suspect the Iraq war would have had a whole lot more thought put into it if the “cheerleaders” actually had to fight rather than sitting on the sidelines talking and urging others on.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:06 pmIt doesn’t matter if they did or didn’t, because it wasn’t the reason for the war. It was the reason given, but even the reason they state now wasn’t the reason for the war.
To understand US policy in the Middle East, a person needs to draw a straight line from oil reserves to the coast. Any point in between is the enemy.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:07 pmWell, what is the percent that believe in God? We’re a people of blind faith.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:12 pm50% of Americans obviously watch Fox news or no news at all.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:13 pmEither that or they are permanently brain damaged =P
A little logic and common sense, unfortunately two traits alien to a number of people in this Country, solves the conundrum quickly and easily and proves the Bushco to be liars.
Assume:
1. Sadam has WMD.
2. Sadam is a threat to the US with his WMD
3. We must invade Iraq to fight Sadam and his WMD over there instead of here.
4. US invaded Iraq.
5. Sadam didn’t use his WMD’s.
6. Two conclusions:
a. Sadam became a Born Again Christian and decided not to use WMD’s
OR
b. Sadam didn’t have WMD’s in the first place.
In either case the Bushco lied: either about the presence of WMD’s or the threat posed by same. Draw your own conclusion.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:13 pmJuly 25th, 2006 at 12:15 pm
12 TripMaster Monkey
July 25th, 2006 at 12:21 pmI think we can close this thread, now. Nothing more to say. Great post.
Quite the contrary. Liberals have stopped repeating their lies that Saddam did NOT have WMD’s and did NOT have ties to Al Quieda. Over the past 3 years, both Iraq’s ties to Al Quieda and their WMD’s have been confirmed. Given the left’s failure to maintain their hype, and the evidence coming out of Iraq, the US has rebounded to more normal levels of support for the Iraq war. Even more pleasing, with nightly video of war between terrorists and Israel, politicians and pundits are too afraid to maintain liberal hype, out of fear they look anti-semitic – you gotta love political correctness.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:23 pm“Rev.” Moon owns the publication that presented those totally bogus numbers.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:28 pmGeorge Bush himself said that there were no WMDs in Iraq. So, you calling Bush a liar, Hendler?
Which is why I don’t think the Democrats will retake the house or the Senate in November.
Too many people just believe lies with no evidence when repeated often enough.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:28 pmAhh! I figured it out. The poll was conducted by telephone! I haven’t owned a telephone now for more than 5 years because there is absolutely no need for it.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:29 pmPeople that still pay for a telephones are slow learners.. (kinda like those who still pay for an AOL account)
I wouldn’t be surprised if telephone users disproportionately believe in Iraq WMDs.
#15, solitaire,
Bush is helping the middle eastern people create stable democracies in their region, so that aggressive militaristic youths have a peaceful outlet for the disenfranchisement they felt under oppressive regimes.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:32 pm#14
July 25th, 2006 at 12:32 pmBush himself said that there were no WMDs in Iraq and there was no connection between Saddam and bin Laden. Where are you from? What will it take for you to think clearly? The right medication?
This is bizarre, I don’t really know how to explain how these numbers went up. Moreoever, I don’ t think any righties can claim that this 50% indicates something, because since Oct of 2002 there has been very little wavering from all Republican apologists about the existence of an WMD threat, despite factual evidence and testimony from objective weapons inspectors being rubbed into their faces.
I’m going to chalk this up to the confused version of the ‘truth’ that Republicans are constantly pushing forward with their mealy-mouthed rhetorical pretzel-logic explanations whenever something horrendous is done by the government they control. Ask an average (even intelligent) person who isn’t a political junkie about the presence of WMDs in Iraq… in the past a perusal through a few objective newspaper articles, a glance at the nightly newscast, and aslightly more partisan view from Congressmen in opposition to the administration would allow someone to give a definitive “NO”. Nowadays with a government openly lying to us and an unfathomably lazy media, the best I could expect from that average person to answer that polling question would be “I guess.”
July 25th, 2006 at 12:33 pmAh, the refreshing intellectual superiority and smugness of those on the Left.
Poll disagrees with your opinion? The respondents MUST be idiots.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:34 pm#14. Jason Dipsh*t:
WTF WMDs are you F-ing talking about?? Some 15+ year old mustard and sarin gas that we sold them in the 80’s doesn’t count.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:34 pm#15:
July 25th, 2006 at 12:36 pmI just had to laugh at this statement: “Bush is helping the middle eastern people creat stable democracies…”
Hah, yeah, Iraq is so stable, isn’t it?
Oh, and what about Afghanistan? Now there’s the bedrock of the world!
Stable democracies, yes.
Bush, no.
Where was this poll conducted? In the White House?!?!
July 25th, 2006 at 12:38 pmWhile idiots is a little too strong of a word, Chase, it is interesting, considering that ABSOLUTELY NO STOCKPILES OF WEAPONS OF MASS DESTRUCTION WERE FOUND THAT WERE SUPPOSEDLY THERE!
July 25th, 2006 at 12:38 pmI hope this gets through to you
its funny how the libs love to trot out that old goebbels quote whenever their own lies, and spin start to unravel.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:38 pmgood news for america = bad news for the lefties
WOW 150 million Americans are that dumb! We are the dumbest society in history! I bet 50% of the people in “The Greatest Country in the World” cant spell Greatest Country in the World!!
July 25th, 2006 at 12:38 pmits funny how the libs love to trot out that old goebbels quote whenever their own lies, and spin start to unravel.
good news for america = bad news for the lefties
Comment by ct
I am sure Rush is very proud of you for repeating is chest thumping lunacy. So have anything new to try to attack the left with besides the left over trash from the red scare and Hitlers Mein Kampf?
July 25th, 2006 at 12:41 pm26 ct
war for America (capitalized, BTW) = money for neocon, corporatists
not so “funny”
July 25th, 2006 at 12:42 pmWelcome to the United States of Idiots!
July 25th, 2006 at 12:42 pm#21, Sorry, Chase. We come from the reality based community.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:44 pmlib definetion of idiot = anyone who disagrees with a lib
July 25th, 2006 at 12:44 pmEither this poll was taken from a pool of conservatives, or the people who took this poll cannot spell Iraq or Iran, and confused the two.
This is the fruit of No Child Left Behind type of thinking. Thanks George. Thanks Dick.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:45 pmJason,
Cite!!!!
Either you’re smoking some really good stuff, a neocon traitor, or just plain stupid. Which one is it?
Trident
July 25th, 2006 at 12:45 pm# 26CT:
how is 50% of our uninformed semi-retarded electorate still believing the debunked white house propaganda “good news for America”?
some of these right wingers would slit their mother’s throat if it meant that they didn’t have to admit that the Bush administration is full of sh*t.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:46 pmJason M. Hendler;
July 25th, 2006 at 12:47 pmDo you have a credible primary source for WMD found in Iraq? Not old chemical weapons but something that could pose a threat to outside countries.
lib definetion for uninformed and or semi-retarded = anyone who disagrees with a lib
July 25th, 2006 at 12:49 pmAh, the refreshing intellectual superiority and smugness of those on the Left.
Poll disagrees with your opinion? The respondents MUST be idiots.
Comment by Chase
All the facts on the ground says that anyone that believes Saddam had nukes IS an idiot. If they had been found Bush would have photo op after photo op of him standing on top of them cheerleading away… the republicans would have brought them back and had them on every talk show so EVERYONE would know that they are not complete losers… but then again none of that happened now did it? Why? Because you guys ARE complete losers.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:50 pmLiberals have stopped repeating their lies that Saddam did NOT have WMD’s and did NOT have ties to Al Quieda.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — July 25, 2006 @ 12:23 pm
Actually, this was stated by the Duelfer report and the 9/11 commission.
Over the past 3 years, both Iraq’s ties to Al Quieda and their WMD’s have been confirmed.
“Have been confirmed”? Do you have links, sources?
If you are talking about the 500 munitions found in Iraq, goverment officials already said that they were pre-1991, were badly corroded, and could not have been used as originally designed. Moreover, the Defense Department already said these munitions were not the reason the US went to war. The fact that these munitions were not found all in one site at the same time, but scatered throughout Iraq further weakens the claim that Hussein had WMD stockpiles.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:50 pmlib definetion of idiot = anyone who disagrees with a lib
Comment by ct
Or more likely ANYONE that cannot back up their claims with proof… REAL proof … not faith based proof…
July 25th, 2006 at 12:52 pmAh, the refreshing intellectual superiority and smugness of those on the Left.
Poll disagrees with your opinion? The respondents MUST be idiots.
Comment by Chase
Smugness? Idiots? You know, Chace you sound like a nice version of Ann Coulter. Tell you what. I also thought they had WMD’s, based on the intelligence community, not necessarily the Cheney White House. Three days into the war and the Iraqi forces getting slaughtered, I realized that IF they did have WMD’s, they would have used them as they faced annihilation.
I was taken in by the Administration’s bullshit as were MORE than 50% of all Americans. Am I upset? Hell yeah! Am I ashamed? Hell NO!!!!! Afterall, they also fooled the Secretary of State, Colin Powell, who certainly had more information than I did to base his sincerity upon.
Actually I should thank them for opening my eyes once again, when I was just getting my faith back in our government and almost trusting in the honesty and integrity of our leaders.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:52 pmdefinetion of idiot = anyone who disagrees with a lib
Comment by ct
Isn’t your side of the political spectrum always touting how much we liberals disagree with each other on a wide-range of issues? And we do, because we “do nuance”. Your comment is a classic case of projection of your own labelling. as you previously implied that those on the left, who don’t agree with you, are not part of America.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:53 pmCT must be semi-retarded because he/she can’t say anything more than some pathetic “lib” bashing.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:55 pmwe could find a fully armed 5000lb nuclear bomb burried in the iraqi desert and all the lefty kooks on this site and in the media would imediately poopooh it for not being 6000lbs, or what – only 1?
all it is – is a campaign issue for the libs. they could not give a shit about anything else. transparent, america hating, little brainless weasels that they are.
thats why they lose elections
July 25th, 2006 at 12:58 pmSarcasm on
liberal: n. A political persuasion that believes in justice and liberty and individual rights. Normally likes people.
conservative: n. A political persuasion that believes in force and fear and restrictive governments. Normally likes big business.
Intellectual: n. A person who will change their mind to suit the facts.
Reactionary: n. A person who changes the facts to suit their minds.
Sarcasm off
July 25th, 2006 at 12:58 pmEither this poll was taken from a pool of conservatives, or the people who took this poll cannot spell Iraq or Iran, and confused the two.
how is 50% of our uninformed semi-retarded electorate still believing the debunked white house propaganda “good news for America�
anyone that believes Saddam had nukes IS an idiot… Because you guys ARE complete losers.
You guys make my point oh-so-well. Superiority at its best.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:58 pm#14. Jason Dipsh*t:
WTF WMDs are you F-ing talking about?? Some 15+ year old mustard and sarin gas that we sold them in the 80’s doesn’t count.
Comment by kelso — July 25, 2006 @ 12:34 pm
This is exactly why there is confusion. This meme of “WMD found!!” has (re) muddied the waters. In fact though, it’s a useful indicator, anyone who trots it out is either a pitiful moron or being completely disingenous. The latter in Jason’s case:-(
As earlier posters have noted, the fact that no WMD were used is the most compelling argument that they don’t exist. A paranoid tyrant, a man who uses WMD on his own people, would have no hesitation in using them on enemy troops. Any other conclusions require such a tottering heap of speculation and wishful thinking, that they inevitably exclude themselves.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:59 pmthats why they lose elections
Comment by ct
5000lb Nukes and Alpha Centari space alien UFOs … when you get those on Film I will join the republican party again and vote for Pat Robertson for president…
July 25th, 2006 at 1:03 pmwe dont need you
July 25th, 2006 at 1:04 pmWhat this shows is that 50%+ are more than ready to accept a military dictatorship. My guess is that another 25% are chicken littles that are stricken by FUD. The Secret State of America is out to free the world for it’s multinational banks and corporations using the blood of fools.
If a nation expects to be ignorant and free, in a state of civilization, it expects what never was and never will be.
Thomas Jefferson
July 25th, 2006 at 1:04 pm44 ct
July 25th, 2006 at 1:04 pmENOUGH of labelling liberals as “america hating”!! You have no ability and, therefore no right, to judge how I, as a liberal, feel about America (yes, capitalized). I love my country as I love my child and, By God, I will criticize, chastise, and correct either one that goes against the basic values by which it was raised. This “america hating” label is the most despicable invective I see on any TP thread and, if I had my way, any post containing such would be automatically deleted.
You guys make my point oh-so-well. Superiority at its best.
Comment by Chase
Superiority of a POSITION based on facts… not personality NOR EGO NOR religion NOR the political “team” I happen to choose … just FACTS…. if superiority of facts bothers you …maybe you should try it some time… you may like it.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:05 pmthank you. in your honer, i will use it more often.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:07 pmwe could find a fully armed 5000lb nuclear bomb burried in the iraqi desert and all the lefty kooks on this site and in the media would imediately poopooh it for not being 6000lbs, or what – only 1?
all it is – is a campaign issue for the libs. they could not give a shit about anything else. transparent, america hating, little brainless weasels that they are.
thats why they lose elections
Comment by ct
If it was there, it would have been used before Saddam crawled into his spiderhole. With a typical lamebrained, neocon post like this one, I wouldn’t be anyone here “brainless weasels”, dickbreath.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:08 pmI suppose Santorum’s dog and pony show about the WMDs we “found” in Iraq gets the credit for this bump in the polls.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:09 pmI question the polling.
I run in both right & left wing peoples, and I can say that very few of the righties feel that there were WMD. They think they were hoodwinked by dumbya.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:09 pmwe dont need you
Comment by ct
Ya your space alien friends will still vote for you.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:10 pmYou guys make my point oh-so-well. Superiority at its best.
Comment by Chase — July 25, 2006 @ 12:58 pm
Smugness accusations aside -do you think WMD have been found in Iraq?
If so, what do you make of the Defense Department’s statement that these were “not the weapons for which this country went to war”?
July 25th, 2006 at 1:11 pmthank you. in your honer, i will use it more often.
Comment by ct
At least I have honor and respect, for my country, my God, my fellow human beings, and myself. You obviously do not know how to spell “honor”, recognize honor, or demonstrate honor.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:12 pmthank you. in your honer, i will use it more often.
Comment by ct
Hey, lamebrain: You should always capitalize a word in the beginning of a sentence: As in “Thank you” and “In”. Also, honer is spelled “Honor,” and obviously something you know very little about.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:13 pmLeave ct alone, I mean, my mother taught me to not make fun of retards. And this one has moron written all over itself.
btw – don’t we all love how reichtwingnutz come over here and start up on how superior they are. Let’s face it, if any of us go over to ANY rightie site (redstain, etc) we immediately get 86ed. So guess in reichties minds, singular lockstep goose stepping fascism is preferrable to democratic discourse.
Why don’t all the reichties go live in Saudi Arabia where they’ll be with their own kind?
July 25th, 2006 at 1:14 pmanyone that believes Saddam had nukes IS an idiot… Because you guys ARE complete losers.
You guys make my point oh-so-well. Superiority at its best.
Comment by Chase — July 25, 2006 @ 12:58 pm
Well Chase, I do consider myself intellectually superior to someone so inured, so mindless that they beleive this nonsense. I am. I’m sure you consider yourself intellectually superior to someone. The man drooling on himself and muttering into his beard at the busstop perhaps? No one else springs to mind, and even that is a close call …. but you get the idea:-)
We are all superior to someone, and vice versa, to recognise it, to articulate it simply reflects reality. So shove the smug holier than thou psuedo-humilty as far up your ample arse as your arm will go, why don’t you? :-)
Although I have heard that reality is something of a foreign concept to republicans, and you hate foreigners …. so QED. While we are on the subject, reality (acknowledged as recently as April 2006 by Bush himself) is that nothing that could reasonably fit any known definition of a WMD has been found in Iraq. Plus the clincher, Saddam didn’t use them!!! C’mon, a paranoid tyrant, with the worlds most powerful military at this throat and he “spirits” his most potent weapons out the country? For “safe keeping”?
Come now …..
July 25th, 2006 at 1:14 pmProbably a phony FOX News poll, but nonetheless the Bush Regime propaganda does fool a lot of Americans to believe complete nefarious lies > very sad that some people are gullible!
July 25th, 2006 at 1:15 pm#44, but we didn’t so every right winger in the land who thinks we did is wrong.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:17 pm#14
the only wmd that was used was by us during the war. remember the flesh eating wounds that would burn all the way to the bone? that was called phospherous. there ya go. let’s not forget the hypocites running this country.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:18 pmChase,
July 25th, 2006 at 1:22 pmSo with all of this high horse talk about the smugness of liberals for berating idiots who think that Saddam had WMDs can you tell me if you think Saddam had WMD before the invasion and if not do you think you would have to be an idiot to do so?
Well, Rummy told us in 2003 that “we know where they are.”
Three years later, he tells us “I didn’t say that. I said that we knew where the suspected sites are.”
Rummy is a liar. He would be much more credible if he had said, oh, something like this:
“Look, all of our intelligence told us exactly where the WMD stockpiles were, and we had very little reason to doubt it. But when we went to those sites and found none, we concluded that the intelligence was wrong, Saddam had moved the WMDs, or they had been destroyed in the 1990’s.”
But did he say that? Nooooooo.
Here’s what else bothers me about this. Were the WMD’s moved out? Maybe. If we indeed knew where they were, as Rummy and the other neocons said, then our eyes in the sky should have been on those sites 24/7. People, I can go to any one of several Web sites and look at satellite photos of my house in TN. Free. Don’t even have to create any type of account or tell them my name. Just enter the name of my city, pull up the photo, pan to the area of town where I live, and zoom right in. These photos weren’t taken last week or last month, or even last year. They were taken in the late 1990’s.
Now you cannot tell me that we don’t have the technology to monitor sites in Iraq, in real time, day or night. Word has it the resolution is so good that a satellite can pick out a golf ball on a golf course. At the very minimum, we can take a series of still photos over a period of time. And with multiple WMD sites, surely if there is any activity occurring that shows the weapons are being moved, we should be able to see it at least at one site.
Ah, you say, but they were moved via numerous underground tunnels. Fine. Where is the proof of underground tunnels in the suspected sites that Rummy spoke of???
July 25th, 2006 at 1:23 pm#58 – do you think WMD have been found in Iraq?
No. I do believe Saddam had an chemical/bio/nuclear weapons programs at some time and definately sought nuclear materials and/or weapons on the blackmarket.
About the poll (and polling in general): like typical partisans, when the results agree with you they are spot on, completely legit and when they dont agree, they are falsely constructed, improperly run or they polled pure idiots.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:26 pmlibs = professional victims
July 25th, 2006 at 1:28 pmtoday they are victims of a poll
Yes post 69 Chase > they did poll pure idiots > lol.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:28 pmsomething tells me randal was polled
July 25th, 2006 at 1:30 pmNo. I do believe Saddam had an chemical/bio/nuclear weapons programs at some time and definately sought nuclear materials and/or weapons on the blackmarket.
Well that is refreshing, I seem to have judged you a little too harshly.
About the poll (and polling in general): like typical partisans, when the results agree with you they are spot on, completely legit and when they dont agree, they are falsely constructed, improperly run or they polled pure idiots.
True. But in this case …. honestly, we all know there was nothing of substance. Cut us a little slack when we tear our hair out at the kind of idiocy, that years later would still be claiming that WMD were found. It is truly, mind bogglingly infuriating.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:31 pmNope ct they polled dumb moronic fools like you > lol.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:32 pm67 – so now we’re going to insult mothers, eh? Is that a republican value also?
Typical knuckle draggers.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:33 pmI think some of the problem with perception regarding WMD in Iraq has to do with cognitive dissonance for Americans. Just as it’s difficult to believe that your neighbor sexually abused his daughter, it’s difficult for many to believe that our President and his administration intellectually abuses us. The neocons want to spread the “superior” capitalism, democracy, and morals of the U.S., so they cannot tolerate anything that suggests deficits in that superiority or, by extension, anyone who points out those deficits. Therefore, we liberals must “hate America”.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:33 pm#68
eeexxxxxxactly.
these reichwingers don’t want the truth they just want to be right. they want to start a wwIII over ‘lost’ wmds and did. they want the rothchilds to suceed in his mission with all of his minions pulling off the worst state sponsored terror ever(9/11). as we all sit around and wait for these pricks to get booooted out of office the damage is still going. and what is even scarier it’s the ’secret’ damage. if saddam had wmd’s he would have used every single nuke. instead of gorgyporgy pushing the air-raid wmd button for scare tactics there would of been the sonic boom with a ‘mushroom’ cloud. this guy would NOT have let us just walk in without using none of them if there were ’stockpiles’. what is one or two to use. cut the f. crap. pull your heads out of gorgys and israels ass then maybe that head that sits on your shoulders will be worth something besides suckin dick.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:33 pmFaux News has been pushing this WMD’s were found dealio. Too bad lying about the news is not held to the same standards as cursing or showing a nipple since the damage done is arguably worse.
Aloha to all..
July 25th, 2006 at 1:36 pmAbout the poll (and polling in general): like typical partisans, when the results agree with you they are spot on (…)
Comment by Chase — July 25, 2006 @ 1:26 pm
I have made no claim on the accuracy of the polls. But for the record, I do think this particular one is fairly accurate -as much as it pains me to say that. So your post to me is a strawman.
As to why people believe this in spite of the evidence to the contrary, in my very personal opinion it’s a combination of wishful thinking (we couldn’t have invaded Iraq for nothing), misinformation and/or confusion (the 500 dead ammunitions found), government propaganda (Santorum, Hoekstra, et al), and flat out intellectual lazyness. I might be missing other factors.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:36 pm#69
Hmmmm.
- Bush has declared that there were no WMDs in Iraq.
- Weapons inspectors who went in after our invasion have told us there are no WMD’s in Iraq.
- The hunt for WMD’s was officially suspended some time ago.
- Rumsfeld now tells us that the sites he was referring to were “suspected” sites, meaning that “we” were not 100% sure that they contained WMD’s. In other words, there is doubt. (But not in 2003. See my previous post).
- Saddam used no WMD’s on our forces as we invaded.
The points I make are public knowledge.
And yet 50% of the people polled still – STILL – think that Iraq had WMD’s when we invaded.
Do you, Chase, STILL think Iraq had WMD’s the day we invaded, and if so, where are they now? Proof?
July 25th, 2006 at 1:37 pmall it is – is a campaign issue for the libs. they could not give a shit about anything else. Transparent, America hating, little brainless weasels that they are.
Not America hating, I love America. I hate a good portion of Americans though! The one’s that hate the constitution, hate the truth, hate to question authority, hate to read a book or a paper, hate to travel outside of the U.S. …..so yeah.. screw them, they don’t even deserve to live here. They throw out the “America-hating liberals” line because it’s the best argument that they’ve got when faced with the tangle of lies and BS that they’ve accepted at truth.
I am positive you fall into that category CT. If you were to call somebody.. anybody an America-hating brainless weasel TOO THEIR FACE I guarantee you that most liberals would punch you in the nose, and you would most definitely deserve it.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:37 pmChase, please learn to spell. It’s definitely.
What we are saying is not that the poll respondents are stupid, but that they were horrifically misinformed by a supine and complicit press. The recent stunt by santorum and hoaxtra underline this argument.
Please, I would appreciate it if you could present actual proof that wmd’s were found.
No really, right now, in this comment thread. One shred of evidence. Just one.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:38 pmsomeone showed a nipple?
July 25th, 2006 at 1:38 pmthere has never been a fight that a lib has not found a reason to run from
July 25th, 2006 at 1:40 pmI do believe Saddam had an chemical/bio/nuclear weapons programs at some time and definately sought nuclear materials and/or weapons on the blackmarket.
Now let’s take that one step further. Do you believe those beliefs that you just listed would warrant the invasion of a country? If you have proof of these beliefs please post links.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:41 pmthis entire iraq thing is straight bs. the afghan thing is straight bs. and for those who just think that this government is doing us good probably still sleep with a light on.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:43 pmwhen a lib runs out arguements they always attack a typo. in a minute we will all join sen byrd and become kkk members. the o’l playbook is coming out
July 25th, 2006 at 1:43 pmthere has never been a fight that a lib has not found a reason to run from
Comment by ct
You, apparently, have no purpose on this thread other than to start fights.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:47 pm#88
the kkk is running our government. i’ll guarantee anyone else president at the time would have went to hell and hight water–get it–to save the katrina victims. wtf is wrong with folks? excuses, excuses, excuses for the great prejudice, hypocrisy, lies, ineptness of the reichwing admin.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:48 pmct are you in that state? If you are, then are you Joe Lieberman, or one of his pals?
July 25th, 2006 at 1:50 pmWhen BushCo. runs out of arguments in its message, it attacks the messenger.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:52 pmnot another jew hater rearing his ugly head
July 25th, 2006 at 1:52 pmYou have got to be kidding…his little arnesal was destroyed in the Gulf War..
July 25th, 2006 at 1:56 pmI wonder if these cliche labels that ct and others in his world use come in some kind of thesaurus that are secretly distributed to them.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:57 pmi wonder if plc is old enough to be on this site
July 25th, 2006 at 1:58 pmI like oct surprises, dont you?
July 25th, 2006 at 2:00 pmlove em
July 25th, 2006 at 2:01 pmHey, ct. What did I tell you before about your spelling? You keep leaving out the two middle letters in your name.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:05 pmDont worry ct, Joe sixpack has never seen one.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:06 pmjoe moron, my name is not cart
July 25th, 2006 at 2:08 pmbrandi, look out your gonna draw the wrath of a bunch elementary kid shut-ins.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:11 pmDont worry ct, Joe sixpack has never seen one.
Comment by Brandi
Hey Brandi, did you check out that Harris Poll this thread comes from? If I was you and the other neocons trolling here I would look it over before I started celebrating.
A large 68 to 28 majority thinks the United States is less respected around the world as a result of the invasion in Iraq. This is worse from a year ago in June 2005 when, by 62 to 33, a majority felt the U.S. was less respected.
A majority (56%) thinks that spending huge sums of money to invade and occupy Iraq has meant that a lot less money has been available to protect the United States against another terrorist attack.
You and ct better hope for an October surprise. And it better be a big one, too!
By 58 to 41 percent, a clear majority does not think that invading Iraq has helped to reduce the threat of another terrorist attack against the United States
July 25th, 2006 at 2:14 pmwhat happenned to it was a poll of pure idiots?
July 25th, 2006 at 2:16 pmct > he means the letters U and N > lol.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:16 pmBush is a very influential “leader”. His stupidness rubs off on his flock.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:17 pmct
I’m in a playful mood today. So, I’ll join you in your “little-tikes” playground and respond in kind to your question i wonder if plc is old enough to be on this site : pppfffftttt, I’m rubber, you’re glue, whatever you say bounces off me and sticks to you, naanaanaanannybooboo.
I, for one, had major doubts about the presence of WMD during the run up to the attack on Iraq. My conservative father and I got into such a heated argument over this because he could not give me any reason to believe he did and could only compare the situation to WWII history. That was the last time I talked politics with him and, to be honest, I miss doing so. One of my fondest memories was a lively and respectful discussion between my paternal grandfather, my father, and I about the Viet Nam War. It was very helpful to me in coming to terms with my views on that war, and war in general, as I registered for the draft, finally applying for conscientious objector status.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:18 pmWe are constantly reminded by Bush Republicans and every other extremist pundit on talk radio and TV news debate-yelling shows that Iraq had WMDs. Wasn’t it just the other week that Santorum or Frist were on Fox News repeating this lie?
So, as long as the lie continues to be repeated, eventually it becomes accepted as truth.
Just read “1984″. Elements of fascism and fiction continue to become reality in America.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:18 pmWhy is Think Progress repeating right-wing Moonie Times propaganda? This is a report from the Washington Times. When have they ever let the truth get in the way of their “news” reports or polls?
I think it is terribly irresponsible for the progressive blogs to be advancing this bold-faced, neocon propaganda scheme.
Stop participating in the wing-nut echo chamber!!!!
July 25th, 2006 at 2:20 pm#75 – kindness,
July 25th, 2006 at 2:20 pmI thought that #67 was way out of line myself. But the right, as exhibited by W in St. Petersburg (For you repugs, that’s a city in Russia, not the one south of Tampa.), is right from the gutter.
plc
that was good. just back smilin at all the time he wasted with his non response and kindy(kindygarten) tactic.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:23 pmwalttheman,
wow, what the hell. i guess he missed out on the home trainin. having mama i would think that would be the last comment any grown, mature folk would say. that is the reicwing for ya.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:26 pmwhat happenned to it was a poll of pure idiots?
Comment by ct
NO! NO! NO! NO! NO! What have I told you? Capital “W” and only ONE n in “happenned.” And “pure idiots” is poor english. In this case, “idiots” would sound better standing alone.
Sheeesh! You sound like an idiot.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:27 pm50% of Americans think God sits up in the clouds on his jeweled throne and favors one person over another. Just watch any sport in A-merica
July 25th, 2006 at 2:30 pm“About the poll (and polling in general): like typical partisans, when the results agree with you they are spot on, completely legit and when they dont (sic) agree, they are falsely constructed, improperly run or they polled pure idiots.”
Comment by Chase
Chase, my man, you are absolutely right! Welcome to the world of the true believer!
I am happy that you agree that the subject poll about the WMD is “falsely constructed, improperly run or they polled pure idiots.”
Welcome to the winning side.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:33 pm#22
Would you or your liberal friends be willing to store these “old” WMD’s in your garages. I didn’t think so.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:34 pmjoe moron was obviously once sodomized by a bunch of spelling bee geeks. get over it – they did.
Comment by ct
(_!_)
July 25th, 2006 at 2:35 pmOh for crying out loud, I thought the whole WMD farce had been laid to rest in its foul, rancid grave.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:35 pmhttp://www.asylumgoons.blogspot.com/
it’s a long read but well worth it.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:35 pm#22
Would you or your liberal friends be willing to store these “old†WMD’s in your garages. I didn’t think so.
Comment by Frogcatcher
Just dont care as long as no enemy can use them to destroy an american city.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:35 pmare you kidding? they are all living in their garages. their mama would have to make em move out
July 25th, 2006 at 2:36 pmWould you or your liberal friends be willing to store these “old†WMD’s in your garages. I didn’t think so.
Comment by Frogcatcher
I don’t know. Maybe. Might get a couple of bucks for them down at the scrap yard as they aren’t worth shit otherwise.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:39 pm117 Frogcatcher
July 25th, 2006 at 2:41 pmI wouldn’t want to store YOU in my garage either, but that doesn’t make you a WMD. But then, again, …
America is waking up my friends. With more and more of the 50k plus boxes full of Saddam documents being translated, we are now finding out that Saddam did have terrorist connections and WMD programs etc… The left’s arguments are crumbling around them.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:42 pmamen frog
July 25th, 2006 at 2:43 pmare you kidding? they are all living in their garages. their mama would have to make em move out
Comment by ct
Tusk, tusk, what poor english and after all I’ve taught you, too. No capitalization, missing periods, poor sentence structure. No wonder you have grown up to be a troll.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:44 pm#22
Would you or your liberal friends be willing to store these “old†WMD’s in your garages. I didn’t think so.
Comment by Frogcatcher — July 25, 2006 @ 2:34 pm
That is what is commonly referred to as a non-sequitor.
Well-played – not.
Only an idiot would make such a stupid staement.
These are are not the feared WMDs and hardly were a threat to USA – even when
they were in their prime. There was no delivery mechanism.
Unless of course you consder the Iraqi non-existant drones.
bytheway – we sold them much of these under Reagan.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:44 pmI here the Repukelikans are going to start running an advertisement campaign based on these new WMD poll numbers using the Lennon/McCartney song, “‘Here,There and Everywhere”.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:48 pm#112 – bs,
July 25th, 2006 at 2:48 pmHis(ct’s) mom has obviously run out of Fels Naptha Soap.
amen frog
Comment by ct
It bothers me to see Joe Sixpack having to do all the work. That would be “Amen” with a capital letter, then a comma (you know, one of those little wormy things), then “frog”. Unless “Amen Frog” is the name of a Gospel choir singer.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:49 pmyeah….they only killed 5000 kurdish women and children in 1 afternoon. they should probably sell the rest of em at toys-r-us
July 25th, 2006 at 2:49 pmThat Harris poll can not be anywhere close to correct. When you anly poll 1020 people to survey to get those numbers. It’s like saying that a 5 galon bucket of water is safe to drink whey you just analyze one drop of the water that you get from the middle. But my question to all of you is if Saddam could hide his whole airforce under the sand Why couldn’t he hide the weapons under the sand also? those are much smaller than airplanes!
July 25th, 2006 at 2:50 pmhear,duuuuuh
July 25th, 2006 at 2:50 pmAmerica is waking up my friends. With more and more of the 50k plus boxes full of Saddam documents being translated, we are now finding out that Saddam did have terrorist connections and WMD programs etc… The left’s arguments are crumbling around them.
Comment by Frogcatcher
That is what Rush, Coulter, etc… keep telling you… and you keep buying it… but if it was true the GOP would be trumpeting it ALL OVER THE NEWS. But they do not because they would look like the idiots you do by believing the same crap year after year…
July 25th, 2006 at 2:52 pmAmerica is waking up my friends. With more and more of the 50k plus boxes full of Saddam documents being translated, we are now finding out that Saddam did have terrorist connections and WMD programs etc… The left’s arguments are crumbling around them.
Comment by Frogcatcher — July 25, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
This is more of the same republican love affair with fiction. A document detailing complex plans, plots and sites is worth little if the plans, plots and sites leave no discernible imprint in the real world. There it is again, reality has as we all know, a liberal bias.
Where are the weapons? Why didn’t Saddam use them? If you cannot answer those questions, and you can’t, then you have nothing. Plus Bush acknowledged they screwed the pooch as recently as April 2006.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:52 pmThanks Walt. I’m ignoring the idiot now. I only have so much time in the day to blog & I’m not wasting it on the likes of that one.
Funny too. When you look at this thread, about 1/3 the posts are his. Guess who doesn’t have a job……
July 25th, 2006 at 2:54 pm#133 – quityourbitchn,
July 25th, 2006 at 2:54 pmSaddam did not bury his Air Force – he had the planes flown to Iran in 1992, they kept them.
Would you or your liberal friends be willing to store these “old†WMD’s in your garages. I didn’t think so.
Comment by Frogcatcher
Hey, Bullfrog, maybe you or one of your neocon friends would like to try and fire off one of those old, obsolete, pitted, and unstable munitions to see if you can do it with it blowing up in your face.
Don’t worry. Remember the last time WMD’s were found by two Marines in the form of several shells filled with Nerve Gas and placed as roadside bombs? They had just enough gas left in them to make one Marine sick to his stomach and the other to get a head ache.
If there were in WMD’s in Iraq, they would have been USED my now.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:55 pmyeah….they only killed 5000 kurdish women and children in 1 afternoon. they should probably sell the rest of em at toys-r-us
Comment by ct
My red pen is out: 1) who are “they”, 2) “Yeah” should be capitalized and technically should be “yes”, 3) “Kurdish” should be capitalized (unless you are marginalizing them), “they” should be capitalized, 4) “em” should be “‘em” at the least, 5) “Toys-R-Us” should be capitalize as here, and 5) what are you talking about???
July 25th, 2006 at 2:57 pm133 quityourbitchn
July 25th, 2006 at 3:00 pmI saw part of the same TV show you apparently did this week! Saddam tried to bury some of his planes but the U.S. could still “see” them and blew them up systematically. Our technology lets us “see” alot. Our brains let us distort alot.
one Marine sick to his stomach and the other to get a head ache.
headache is one word. Dumbass
July 25th, 2006 at 3:01 pmI can see I have the kooks all fired up! It really doesn’t take much…LOL! OK go back to your bongs now.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:03 pm#132
they still had NO delivery mechanism!!!
I heard that little chestnut “would you keep in your garage scenario?” by a stupid
Fox pundit – and frog just repeated like the dimwit he is.
Obviously no one wants these chemicals anywhere near them, but that
July 25th, 2006 at 3:04 pmhas nothing to do whether they were a direct threat to US. Especially
in their degraded condition. Quit clutching at straws. There never was WMD
- it was all so W can be a War President, the neocons can execute PNAC,
the Christian Taliban can help bring their cherished armeggedon, and of course
the oil can be throttled so prices can go up. Buy any gas lately? Wake up and
love your country before your party!!! The republican party has been take over
by extremist that would love to be ruled by a dictator. wake up!!!
#140. I think you are wasting your time on that guy, PLC. He can’t even spell out his own name without our help. But he’ll learn how to next year in Junior High.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:04 pmgood job frog.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:05 pmheadache is one word. Dumbass
Comment by hobbes
You are right and I am corrected, hob knob. Or is it cob-a-nob?
July 25th, 2006 at 3:05 pmFifty percent of America is artificially intelligent.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:10 pmheadache is one word. Dumbass
Comment by hobbes
Oh, and don’t forget your period after Dumbass, numbnuts.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:11 pmjoe sixpack is very clever. the morons are ct and amphibian chaser.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:13 pmwho through out the thread failed to produce any evidence to their ridiculous
positions. Any rational well though argument. Nothing. Just insult, attack
state opinions, and repeat stupidity they heard from right-wing media.
jason is a junior moron. never heard that on right wing media.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:14 pmyou flirtin with me little joe moron?
July 25th, 2006 at 3:16 pmJoe Sixpack
July 25th, 2006 at 3:16 pmSpoilsport – bringing me back to reality from his little playground. Well, it is about time for me to sign-off. It’s been fun playing today. Progressives, keep the message front and center, fight back when necessary, and smile the whole time.
that all you got left – little joe moron? i doubt if you could spell cat by yourself if i spotted you the c and the t
Comment by ct
Sorry I am slow in posting, c_ _t, but I was just sitting here laughing, reading that Harris Poll showing how junior and the repugnicans are going down the drain. Kind of like Ross Perot might say: “That big slurping sound you hear is the republican party’s ass going down the drain.”
I was also thinking of your mama’s big fat ass: (__!__)
July 25th, 2006 at 3:17 pmBye. Sorry for the remark about your Mama.
Really. Its been fun.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:20 pm“You’re” should be “your” – much too excited about the discovery.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:20 pm#157 – JSP,
July 25th, 2006 at 3:21 pmI thought you were offering it something to kiss in a prior post. And, please, don’t disparage anyone’s female parent – it is not civilized to do so.
ct and frog – you’ve been had. Bushco thinks you are idiots and easily duped.
apparently he is right.
As CNN reported “Saddam Hussein did not possess stockpiles of illicit weapons at the time of the U.S. invasion in March 2003 and had not begun any program to produce them, a CIA report concludes. In fact, the long-awaited report, authored by Charles Duelfer, who advises the director of central intelligence on Iraqi weapons, says Iraq’s WMD program was essentially destroyed in 1991 and Saddam ended Iraq’s nuclear program after the 1991 Gulf War.” CNN noted “The report was released nearly two years ago to the day that President Bush strode onto a stage in Cincinnati and told the audience that Saddam Hussein’s Iraq “possesses and produces chemical and biological weapons” and “is seeking nuclear weapons
July 25th, 2006 at 3:22 pmI like bad-boy closeted rightwingers too Tucker and I’m especially partial to Steve Douchey on” Fox and Friends”…mmmmm…mmm…mmmmm good.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:25 pmI’d be willing to bet that 50% of the population in this country hasn’t read a book since highschool.
They’re the same folks that depend on fox news for “information”.
July 25th, 2006 at 3:48 pmThe trolls are getting fat and sassy.
July 25th, 2006 at 4:08 pm#83 – Since we’re going to snipe at my misspelling, let’s work on your manners (it’s Senator Santorum and Representative Hoesktra) as well as your spelling (I’m sure you’re aware that surnames are, indeed, proper nouns and are correctly capitalized).
Now that we’ve dispensed with that, we can move on.
Have WMDs been found in Iraq? No they have not. Do I believe Saddam actively sought WMDs? Yes. Here’s an older, yet interesting (and authoritative) that details Saddam’s attempts, and success, at “hoodwinking” IAEA inspectors.
IAEA inspectors weren’t the only international oversight team who was intentionally deceived: the UN was as well.
It seems odd to me that had Saddam not had WMDs, either completed or in development, he would have no reason to hide facilities or deceive inspectors. Any reasonable explanation for that?
July 25th, 2006 at 5:02 pmReply to Chase:
It seems odd to me that had Saddam not had WMDs, either completed or in development, he would have no reason to hide facilities or deceive inspectors. Any reasonable explanation for that?
I can think of one right off the top of my head:
Saddam’s relationship with his neighboring countries depended upon them continuing to believe that he still possessed WMDs of some sort. He couldn’t afford to have the IAEA expose his fiction.
(See…that wasn’t really that hard, now was it?)
Of course, that wasn’t what Shorter Rightwing Arseholes was looking for, was it? No…SRA said:
We’re still waiting for that shred…
July 25th, 2006 at 5:17 pmBy the way, Chase old bean, I’m still waiting for a response over here…
July 25th, 2006 at 5:18 pm#169 – Please see my comment at 168 where I say:
Have WMDs been found in Iraq? No they have not.
You’re explanation why Saddam would want to misrepresent a WMD program to inspectors is intriguing. I would even be inclined to consider it further, if not for the CNN article I included above. Please read it.
July 25th, 2006 at 5:34 pmThanks for the CNN link, Chase. I especially like this part:
On top of this, we had Colin Powell telling us in March 2001 that Saddam was being contained, he had been unable to restart his WMD program(s), and that he was not a serious threat to America. I can find a link to his words if you want.
July 25th, 2006 at 5:47 pm#171 Chase
Re #116
At least you could say “Thank You.”
July 25th, 2006 at 5:47 pmIAEA inspectors weren’t the only international oversight team who was intentionally deceived: the UN was as well.
Comment by Chase — July 25, 2006 @ 5:02 pm
The article in the link you provided states the tapes show Hussein did intend to preserve Iraq’s WMD program as of 1995, when the recordings wee likely made. That is a far cry from the date of the invasion.
Also, Hussein might have been bent on intent; but that is not the reason why the US invaded Iraq, was it? Iraq was invaded because it was a “present, gathering threat”. It was presented as a certainty (”east, west, south and north somewhat”) not a speculation.
By March 2003, Hans Blix was asking for more time to complete inspections and certify Iraq did not have WMD. Up to that point, the UNMOVIC hand’t found any significant amount of chemicals or missiles, and whatever they found they destroyed.
At that point, Hussein wasn’t fooling anyone anymore. Iraq was effectively contained.
July 25th, 2006 at 5:50 pmThe National Intelligence Estimate is the intelligence community’s authoritative written judgment on specific national security issues. The 2002 NIE provided a key judgment and I quote directly from the report: “Iraq has continued its WMD programs in defiance of U.N. resolutions and restrictions. Baghdad has chemical and biological weapons as well as missiles with ranges in excess of U.N. restrictions; if left unchecked, it probably will have a nuclear weapon during this decade.”
The fact-based bipartisan Silberman-Robb Commission Report, which investigated the causes of intelligence failures in the run-up to the war. We now know that the President’s Daily Brief and the Senior Executive Intelligence Brief were, if anything, more alarmist and less nuanced than the NIE. We also know that the intelligence in the PDB was not markedly different from that given to Congress.
Why did John Kerry, in voting to give the president the authority to use force, said, “I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a threat, and a grave threat, to our security.” It’s why Ted Kennedy said, “We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.” And it’s why Hillary Clinton said in 2002, “In the four years since the inspectors, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability and his nuclear program.”
How do you explain that intelligence agencies from around the globe believed Saddam had WMD. Even foreign governments that opposed his removal from power believed Iraq had WMD. Just a few weeks before Operation Iraqi Freedom began, Wolfgang Ischinger, German ambassador to the U.S. said, “I think all of our governments believe that Iraq has produced weapons of mass destruction and that we have to assume that they continue to have weapons of mass destruction.” Anyway, no serious person with reasoned discourse would justify a war based on information he knows to be false and which would be shown to be false.
Let me say this, most of the world was operating from essentially the same set of assumptions, and/or intelligence regarding Iraq’s WMD capabilities. Look, important assumptions turned out wrong; but mistakenly relying on faulty intelligence is a world apart from lying about it. One can play politics with the truth and distort the facts, but in the end the President did not lie about WMD.
Another thing I hear from the left is the Bush administration pressured intelligence agencies to bias their judgments. Al Gore charged that “CIA analysts who strongly disagreed with the White House found themselves under pressure at work and became fearful of losing promotions and salary increases. He didn’t bother to back that up with any documentation or core facts supporting it. Teddy charged that the administration “put pressure on intelligence officers to produce the desired intelligence and analysis.” Here again, Kennedy doesn’t offer any proof, none. I challenge anyone to find anyone or anything that can back those accusations up, anyone.
The Senate’s Select Committee on Intelligence’s bipartisan Report on the U.S. Intelligence Community’s Prewar Intelligence Assessments on Iraq. Among the findings: “The committee did not find any evidence that intelligence analysts changed their judgments as a result of political pressure, altered or produced intelligence products to conform with administration policy, or that anyone even attempted to coerce, influence or pressure analysts to do so.” Silberman-Robb concluded the same, finding “no evidence of political pressure to influence the Intelligence Community’s prewar assessments of Iraq’s weapons programs.
Among the key findings of the September 2004 facts report by Charles Duelfer or The Duelfer Report, who succeeded Mr. Kay as ISG head, are that Saddam was pursuing an aggressive strategy to subvert the Oil for Food Program and to bring down U.N. sanctions through illicit finance and procurement schemes; and that Saddam intended to resume WMD efforts once U.N. sanctions were eliminated. According to Mr. Duelfer, “the guiding theme for WMD was to sustain the intellectual capacity achieved over so many years at such a great cost and to be in a position to produce again with as short a lead time as possible. Virtually no senior Iraqi believed that Saddam had forsaken WMD forever. Evidence suggests that, as resources became available and the constraints of sanctions decayed, there was a direct expansion of activity that would have the effect of supporting future WMD reconstitution.” Finally, I can’t wait until all the Saddam documents are translated. There are 50k boxes plus. They’ve only touched on a fraction so far. Anyway, it will take time, and time will tell even more.
I have to acknowledge that most of the previous paragraphs are from a written article by a high level government employee as I recall. I can’t think of the name off hand, but I don’t want any of you libs to say I plagiarized this. I will find the article and link you up.
July 25th, 2006 at 7:20 pmIs that all you got Ho chi?
July 25th, 2006 at 7:39 pmFrogcatcher,
The NIE (in its 2002 report) did not have the information gathered by the UNMOVIC team after they resumed inspections towards the end of 2002. For the same reason, what John Kerry and others said in 2002 is irrelevant because they did not have that information. Neither did they have access to the classified briefs Pres Bush was given.
As for your quote of Wolfgang Ischinger, you conveniently chose to leave out what he said right after that:
We have not yet seen evidence produced by the inspectors. But our point is we think that the inspection process, which we all together, the United States and all the other members of the Security Council, created a few months ago, we believe that process is working. It’s not working well, but it’s working sufficiently well in our view to justify its continuation. We think we should let the inspectors do their job until they say they can’t do a useful job anymore. I think that’s our point.
Katie Couric interview with Ambassador Wolfgang Ischinger on NBC’s Today Show on February 26, 2003
The embassador did not think Iraq was a threat warranting an invasion.
The White House might not have needed to pressure any intelligence analysts: they had their own “intelligence” sources, even as CIA officials were warning that Iraq WMD information was iffy. Let’s not forget the Bush adnministration was “fixing the facts around the policy”.
As for the Duelfer report, the war was not justified on Hussein’s intention of acquiring WMD, maybe, perhaps, could be. Iraq’s WMD were described as a certainty: “We know where they are. They’re in the area around Tikrit and Baghdad and east, west, south and north somewhat”. Clearly Rumsfeld didn’t know.
July 25th, 2006 at 7:59 pm#167 Frogcatcher; Did a post of mine get removed from here? Otherwise, I’m not sure what you’re referring to.
July 25th, 2006 at 8:23 pmThis just goes to show what effective liars are employed by Fox News.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:04 pmIt also shows that too many Americans are uninformed, ill-informed, un-thinking, easily led, and don’t know enough to care.
#170 Marie; We have truly become a nation of idiots for most people to blindly accept, no-questions-asked the ridiculous assertions made by this neo-nazi administration, Before the first shot was fired, I said that marching into Iraq is an EXTEMELY bad idea and I did not buy ANY of the BS put forth by Bush, Rice, Cheney, Powell, Wolfowitz, Kristol, & other fascist pigs. As a Vietnam vet, I’ve seen this crap before, up close and personal. It was BS then, It’s BS now.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:20 pm#168
Let’s not forget the Bush adnministration was “fixing the facts around the policyâ€.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:38 pmAre you referring to the Downing Street Memo? Lets place the writing of this memo in the context of what was going on and around at that time. In laymen’s terms the memo simply contains the impressions of an aide of the impressions of British cabinet officials of the impressions of unnamed people they spoke to in the United States about what they thought the president was thinking. It is sad when hearsay thrice removed raises this kind of ruckus, especially since a version had been reported years ago.
Was the president committed to go to war with Iraq in July 2002? It’s a fair question. In the summer of 2002 the policy of the United States was that Saddam Hussein should be removed from power. However, that does not mean that the decision to go to war had already been made. It is well known and published that contingency planning for military operations against Iraq had begun as early as November 2001. This is no secret; the full timeline along with a wealth of details can be found in General Tommy Frank’s memoirs. The plan that became known as OPLAN 1003V began to be put together in earnest in January 2002.
The existence of war planning does not in itself prove that the use of force was inevitable. The purpose was to provide the president with the full range of credible alternatives for pursuing U.S. policy. Regime change had been U.S. policy since October 31, 1998, when President Clinton signed the Iraq Liberation Act. It was not a state secret the intelligence was being formed around the policy. Furthermore, on February 12, 2002, Colin Powell stated “With respect to Iraq, it has long been, for several years now, a policy of the United States government that regime change would be in the best interests of the region, the best interests of the Iraqi people. And we are looking at a variety of options that would bring that about.”
The policy had bipartisan support; in June 2002 Senate Majority Leader Tom Daschle said, “There is broad support for a regime change in Iraq. The question is how do we do it and when do we do it.” It was also an
international objective. On April 6, 2002, during a summit in Crawford, Texas, Prime Minister Blair said that regime change in Iraq was the policy of Great Britain, and that failure to act against Saddam was “not an option.” Blair pledged to support military action against Iraq, should that become necessary. But had the president made up his mind that regime change would necessitate war? The Downing Street Memo mentions “spikes of activity,” which probably refers to the program of covert operations begun against Iraq in the spring of 2002. This program was revealed the following June.
Covert action against Iraq was hardly controversial. On June 16, 2002, on ABC’s This Week, House Democratic leader Richard Gephardt said that congressional leaders had been briefed on the secret directive by the White House, and stated, “It is an appropriate action to take. I hope it succeeds in its quest.” Senator Joseph Biden, then chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee, said on Face the Nation, “If the covert action doesn’t work, we better be prepared to move forward with another action, an overt action, and it seems to me that we can’t afford to miss.”
By the time the Downing Street Memo was written overt action against Iraq was being widely discussed, spurred in part by the July 5, 2002, publication of some of the war plans in the New York Times, now there’s a surprise! The July 5 article led to rampant speculation about the inevitability of war, especially in Britain.
The Downing Street Memo is a very good analytical piece, and demonstrates a sound understanding of Saddam’s emotional state and probable future moves. Once again, I did not write this piece and I will provide the link as soon as I can find it.
Ho Chi Minh
“and I did not buy ANY of the BS put forth by Bush, Rice, Cheney, Powell, Wolfowitz, Kristol, & other fascist pigs. As a Vietnam vet, I’ve seen this crap before, up close and personal. It was BS then, It’s BS now.”
Rn’t u cluvur?
But, my guess is, time did not change things for you, did it?
Sometimes, in some places some people get wiser as they get older. I’m sure you are one marching guard!
July 25th, 2006 at 10:01 pmThis poll had to have been takin in Utah. That can be the only explaination for why those numbers are so high.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:04 pmThere sure are a lot of trolls posting on here nowadays. What happened ya’ll? Karl Rove send ya all on a mission?
July 25th, 2006 at 10:05 pmHas anyone been stupid enough to read posts 166, 168 or 172 beyond the first screen? The idiots generating this keyboard cut and paste diarrhea should be banished to everlasting Hell.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:42 pm#171 HcM
July 25th, 2006 at 11:04 pmI have all too vivid recollections of the VN war and I share your perspective.
I couldn’t believe that the public would be so stupid — kept thinking that something would change the course of events before Bush would be allowed to proceed with this reckless and arrogant invasion. WOW, did I underestimate the public response as much as I underestimated the power wielded by the WH.
We will all be paying for this fiasco of death and destruction for decades.
Yet, the number of ignorant people who believe the shit spewed by BushCO remains constant.
#176
What’s bugging you Walter, you can’t handle rational discourse? Yep, it true I did cut and paste some paragraphs from someone else’s commentary/opinions. However, if you were paying attention you might have noticed I didn’t take credit for it. Yet, the facts support the argument and I agree with what was written. I’ve read many comments on this post about how the Bush Administration has lied about Iraq etc…. yet when you and others are confronted with something that doesn’t fit the liberal template you all fall back to the same old BS. I can’t believe how easily influenced you are by all the moonbats.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:48 pmSeems like the worse things get in Iraq, the more people need to believe that it wasn’t all for nothing. But that doesn’t change anything.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:48 pmwe live in a nation of eff-ing idiots…. and there’s no light at the end of the tunnel anymore, just the oncoming train in our face…
July 26th, 2006 at 12:08 amChoo Choo!
July 26th, 2006 at 12:13 amHas anyone been stupid enough to read posts 166, 168 or 172 beyond the first screen?
Comment by WaltTheMan — July 25, 2006 @ 10:42 pm
Whoa, Mr. TheMan!
Post #168 is mine and is not a copy and paste, except for the snippet from the interview with the German ambassador from 2003. The rest is mine with a few quotes to debunk FrogCatcher’s assertion that the invasion of Iraq was an intelligence failure and that Pres Bush is not to blame.
July 26th, 2006 at 1:19 amwow, if I had been frogcatcher on the receiving end of Mr. Samsa’s
factual smackeroo, I would have slinked away in shame.
Thanks Mr. Samsa…great rebuttal.
July 26th, 2006 at 6:26 am..oh yea, this poll cannot be a true reflection of America.
My father, who is a die-hard conservative radio listening fool (what else is there though, right..no liberals on the radio) has abandoned bush, and has taken up
July 26th, 2006 at 6:27 ama defensive attitude towards any and all republicans. he feels betrayed.
How can so many people be so ignorant of the facts. BUSH LIED. THERE WERE NO WMD.
July 26th, 2006 at 11:20 amI posted these statements once and they were taken off the post. I wonder why?
“One way or the other, we are determined to deny Iraq the capacity to develop weapons of mass destruction and the missiles to deliver them. That is our bottom line.” President Clinton, Feb. 4, 1998
“If Saddam rejects peace and we have to use force, our purpose is clear.
We want to seriously diminish the threat posed by Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction program.”
President Clinton, Feb. 17, 1998
“Iraq is a long way from USA but, what happens there matters a great deal here. For the risks that the leaders of a rogue state will use nuclear, chemical or biological weapons against us or our allies is the greatest security threat we face.”
Madeline Albright, Feb 18, 1998
“He will use those weapons of mass destruction again, as he has ten times since 1983.”
Sandy Berger, Clinton National Security Adviser, Feb, 18, 1998
“We urge you, after consulting with Congress, and consistent with the U.S.Constitution and Laws, to take necessary actions, (including, if appropriate, air and missile strikes on suspect Iraqi sites) to respond effectively to the threat posed by Iraq’s refusal to end its weapons of mass destruction
programs.” Letter to President Clinton, signed by Sens. Carl Levin, Tom Daschle, John Kerry, and others Oct. 9, 1998
“Saddam Hussein has been engaged in the development of weapons of mass destruction technology which is a threat to countries in the region and he has made a mockery of the weapons inspection process.”
Rep. Nancy Pelosi (D, CA), Dec. 16, 1998
“Hussein has .. chosen to spend his money on building weapons of mass destruction and palaces for his cronies.” Madeline Albright, Clinton Secretary of State, Nov. 10, 1999
“There is no doubt that … Saddam Hussein has invigorated his weapons programs. Reports indicate that biological, chemical and nuclear programs continue a pace and may be back to pre-Gulf War status. In addition, Saddam continues to redefine delivery systems and is doubtless using the cover of a licit missile program to develop longer-range missiles that will threaten the United States and our allies.”
Letter to President Bush, Signed by Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL,) and others, December 5, 2001
“We begin with the common belief that Saddam Hussein is a tyrant and a threat to the peace and stability of the region. He has ignored the mandated of the United Nations and is building weapons of mass destruction and the means of delivering them.” Sen. Carl Levin (D, MI), Sept. 19, 2002
“We know that he has stored secret supplies of biological and chemical weapons throughout his country.”
Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“Iraq’s search for weapons of mass destruction has proven impossible to deter and we should assume that it will continue for as long as Saddam is in power.” Al Gore, Sept. 23, 2002
“We have known for many years that Saddam Hussein is seeking and developing weapons of mass destruction.” Sen. Ted Kennedy (D, MA), Sept. 27, 2002
“The last UN weapons inspectors left Iraq in October of 1998. We are confident that Saddam Hussein retains some stockpiles of chemical and biological weapons, and that he has since embarked on a crash course to build up his chemical and biological warfare capabilities. Intelligence reports indicate that he is seeking nuclear weapons…” Sen. Robert Byrd (D, WV), Oct. 3, 2002
July 26th, 2006 at 12:10 pm“I will be voting to give the President of the United States the authority to use force– if necessary– to disarm Saddam Hussein because I believe that a deadly arsenal of weapons of mass destruction in his hands is a real and grave threat to our security.” Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Oct. 9, 2002
“There is unmistakable evidence that Saddam Hussein is working aggressively to develop nuclear weapons and will likely have nuclear weapons within the next five years … We also should remember we have always underestimated the progress Saddam has made in development of weapons of mass destruction.”
Sen. Jay Rockefeller (D, WV), Oct 10, 2002
“He has systematically violated, over the course of the past 11 years, every significant UN resolution that has demanded that he disarm and destroy his chemical and biological weapons, and any nuclear capacity. This he has refused to do” Rep. Henry Waxman (D, CA), Oct. 10, 2002
“In the four years since the inspectors left, intelligence reports show that Saddam Hussein has worked to rebuild his chemical and biological weapons stock, his missile delivery capability, and his nuclear program. He has also given aid, comfort, and sanctuary to terrorists, including al Qaeda members
It is clear, however, that if left unchecked, Saddam Hussein will continue to increase his capacity to wage biological and chemical warfare, and will keep trying to develop nuclear weapons.” Sen. Hillary Clinton (D, NY), Oct 10, 2002
“We are in possession of what I think to be compelling evidence that Saddam Hussein has, and has had for a number of years, a developing capacity for the production and storage of weapons of mass destruction.”
Sen. Bob Graham (D, FL), Dec. 8, 2002
“Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation … And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real …” Sen. John F. Kerry (D, MA), Jan.23.2003
http://www.truthorfiction.com/rumors/b/bushlied.htm
Frogcatcher,
You can post all the quotes you want, they won’t change the fact that none of those people had access to the information revealed by the UNMOVIC team inspections between the end of 2002 and March 2003 showing Iraq was not the “present, gathering threat” Pres Bush claimed it was.
It also won’t change the fact that European governments did not see Hussein’s regime as a threat needing a pre-emptive strike. Iraq’s neighbors did not think Hussein posed a threat either, contrary to the Bush administration’s claims.
It won’t change the fact that Pres Bush had access to the UNMOVIC team’s reports, to CIA briefings that said Iraq’s WMD claims were not credible, and that European allies were asking for time so the inspections could be completed to certify Iraq as being free of WMD.
It also won’t change the fact that none of those people ordered the invasion; or that the war was one of choice; Pres Bush’s choice. His office chose the time and the weapons. They would also have chosen the place if they could.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:51 pmhttp://www.state.gov/r/pa/prs/ps/2003/18513.htm
Here is the fact sheet my friend. I suggest everyone read it for clarity. Along with that you might as well keep reading some more interesting things.
http://www.captainsquartersblog.com/mt/archives/007421.php
July 26th, 2006 at 2:34 pmFrogcatcher,
Again, if you check the UNMOVIC report, and Blix’s presentation to the Security Council in March 2003 you will see that the inspections were working as intended: They were combing Iraq in search for WMD; mainly leftovers from 1991. The UNMOVIC team destroyed whatever they found. None of the weapons & munitions found could be classifed as presenting a gathering, present danger to Iraq’s neighbors let alone the US.
The list in your link is a summary extracted from the UNMOVIC report and it certainly does not leave the impression of a gathering threat.
Also, the UNMOVIC team received tips from American sources about potential WMD sites. None panned out, to the point where the UN inspectors called the US intelligence “garbage”
In a nutshell: the inspectors found no WMD stockpiles even after combing over 200 sites, old and new for about 4 months. They destroyed bombs and missiles we already knew Iraq had. American intelligence provided tips that lead nowhere.
Now, let’s put two and two together: the Bush administration was ignoring the CIA and gathering phony intelligence from Chalabi and his ilk, they were fixing the facts around the policy, were hyping an non-existing Iraqi nuclear threat (the famous Nigerian yellowcake), were talking as if they knew were the WMD were when they didn’t, were trying to link 9/11 to Hussein, insisted Iraq was a threat to its neighbors, etc, etc.
What more evidence do you need to conclude the Bush administration had to misrepresent the facts in order to lead the US into invading Iraq?
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