On Friday, the National Review’s Katherine Jean Lopez wrote a rather innocuous review of the new Oliver Stone movie, World Trade Center. Lopez wrote the movie was “about why we fight.”
Someone emailed Lopez, objecting to the line “it’s about why we fight,” and noting that “you do not fight - you never have and, hopefully, never will have to. You are not a member of any of the branches of the armed forces, nor a reservist.” Lopez was fairly contrite, responding, “To anyone reading from Iraq, Afghanistan, or otherwise serve in our military, let me clarify: I don’t fight. Thank you for serving so we may go about our days of blogging.”
But Cliff May, another National Review blogger and prominent right-wing pundit, objected. May insisted that Lopez, by blogging for the National Review was “fighting a war” and this war was “equally consequential” with the wars that are fought by the U.S. military. An excerpt:
There is a war of arms. And there is a war of ideas. They are not just inter-related, they are interdependent. They are equally consequential.
…Let’s take just one example: In the 1930s, Churchill fought a war of ideas. He tried to warn the world about Hitler; tried to warn Europe and America that Hitler’s hatred and ambition had to be checked. But most people did not listen. Churchill’s ideas did not prevail. They called Churchill a “war monger.â€
…So yes, Kathryn, you are fighting a war. And your e-mailer is ignorant about how wars are fought, about how wars are won and lost, and about the way the world actually works.
To be fair, there is some truth in what May is saying. Arguments about ideas can have real consequences. But blogging on the National Review (or ThinkProgress, for that matter) is not the equivalent of Churchill warning the world about Hitler. And blogging is not “equally consequential” to the wars fought by members of the United States military, who put their lives at risk every day.
Oliver Stone did World Trade Center, not United 93.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:44 amThe Oliver Stone movie is called WORLD TRADE CENTER, I bet.
xxxjimmy
July 25th, 2006 at 9:45 amIsn’t the new Oliver Stone movie “World Trade Center”? United 93 was directed by Paul Greengrass. Just sayin’…
July 25th, 2006 at 9:45 amFYI….Oliver Stone’s new movie is not called “United 93″.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:45 amYou’re fast, Panda.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:46 amOOPS. Its ‘World Trade Center’. Not United 93.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:47 amHow many times did I get that comment from our resident trolls. Especially the young male ones. When they go on and on about supporting bush’s wars, and you call them on it - why don’t they enlist - they retort - they are fighting another war - the war on liberals!
July 25th, 2006 at 9:47 am(I don’t think United 93 is an Oliver Stone movie. He does have one on the WTC opening in a few days.)
Those useless bloggers at NRO really like to see themselves as warriors. Half the time they can’t even get their facts right. I see them as pathetic authoritarians blindly supporting an administration that has been a total foreign policy disaster. It is time for them to come up with a solution to the Middle East mess that doesn’t involve bombs, troops and “let’s get Iran”.
Where is the conservative answer to our current situation?
July 25th, 2006 at 9:48 amUnited 93 was Oliver Stone? We thought he did the new IX/XI one coming out now, not the U93 flick from a few months ago.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:48 amThanks everyone. I fixed it.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:48 amLook Cliff. I’m fightin’ too. [type…type…tap…type…tap…oops…backspace….type…tap]
July 25th, 2006 at 9:49 amGreat post. I’ve no doubt many on the far-right fully believe they’re fighting a war. It helps to explain why they feel justified in putting their conscience on the shelf. Unfortunately many of our colleagues on that side don’t appreciate that the means is just as important as the ends.
Cheers to TP for recognizing our battles don’t even merit discussion in the same sentence as those fought daily by those in the military.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:49 amHow old is he? 42 or under? He looks young enough, why isn’t he signing up?
July 25th, 2006 at 9:49 amThis is an underappreciated aspect of the rise of the Internet.
Many of us have grown past it, but many people when they discover for the first they can post messages (or blog or whatever) they feel they have tremendous power. Without the Internet they would be reduced to graffitti. Soon enough we usually discover than what we write (like THIS posting) has little effect or import. It is really mostly amusement.
However, authoritarian right-wingers never seem to outgrow this. They think the command the media to do their bidding, and they are so embedded in their own fantasy they have no idea of the reality.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:50 amAh, it has been corrected.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:51 amWe have found that we generally want to break the noses of the assholes who “thank” us for our service, because these strange “thanks” are all about their support and are totally unburdened by any serious concern about the person they’re “thanking.”
There is still, something to be said for what the blogs can do. Ned Lamont says hello.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:52 amI agree that in no way is blogging equivalent to ground fighting. That’s the kind of silly claptrap logic that got us in this mess to begin with.
But it is fair to say that blooging is ‘equally essential’ in this conflict. There has been so much exposed because of people who adhere to NO payroll, they simply contribute to the information stream so that all the shades of the truth can be combined to help inform the people.
And I consider that the second most honorable thing you can do (assuming you have regard for conveying the trush as best you know it) outside of putting your life on the line. I don’t agree that we should be over there, and it’s feeling more and more like an occupation. What Kathryn said seems like a thoughtless throwaway line. That kind of careless blogging is what gives the movement a bad name. But by no means should we undermine the importance of the blogosphere’s effect on this war.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:52 amHas anyone “warned ” Americans that unless we honor Palestinian Right of Return there will always be terrorism?
And Spying on Americans?
Most Americans don’t know 700,000 Palestinians lost their homes in 1948. Or that Hamas was born in the refugee camps of the 700,000 people.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:54 amHow many freedoms did you give up today to support Israel?
Why don’t Palestinians just move somewhere where they are welcome? -Ed Schultz
July 25th, 2006 at 9:55 amI am willing to accept May’s admission that he and the rest of the Fighting 101’st Keyboarders are to blame for marching us into the quicksand that is Messopotamia.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:57 amThey seem to be losing both wars. We’re losing in Iraq, notwhithstanding the lies coming out of the Bush administration, and according to the polls, they’re losing the war of ideas as well.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:57 amSeriously - does anyone read NRO besides NRO staff and bloggers? The only time I go there is when someone points out one of their wacky posts. There’s better content on RedState, and that bar’s about as low as it gets.
July 25th, 2006 at 9:59 amThat. Is. Astounding.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:00 amUh, gee I thought we were fighting them over there…so we don’t have to fight ‘em over here. BTW, where’s Osama Been Forgotten?
July 25th, 2006 at 10:02 amCliff May does sound a bit defensive. But blogging itself is a reaction formation prompted by individual alienation from a bureaucratically administered mass society; it’s the illusion of a now anachronistic democracy, and no one likes to be reminded of the fictional nature of their fantasies. The fact that Cliff May thinks he’s Winston Churchill only goes to show how weak the analogy between blogging and exercising political - much less military - power in fact is. Churchill was hardly a voice bouyed only by the integrity of its perceptions. He was the son of Lord Randolph Churchill, was an MP from 1900 on, and First Lord of the Admiralty - a rather influential position in a maritime empire. It’s like calling Stephen J. Hadley a “blogger.”
July 25th, 2006 at 10:02 amThe last time I checked, nobody has been blown up by an IED by blogging. You can’t lose a limb by pressing the “enter” key. Do rightwingers really believe the crap they spew?
…So yes, Kathryn, you are fighting a war. And your e-mailer is ignorant about how wars are fought, about how wars are won and lost, and about the way the world actually works.
Actually, it is he who is ignorant. Did I miss something or were there bloggers in 1939? Indeed, there is what one would call a “war of words” but blogging hardly rises to the level of what our soldiers are experiencing. I bet when Cliff leaves his “green zone” in the morning, he doesn’t need a flak jacket and helmet.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:06 amFighting with arms and make a mistake - death or lots of blood gushing or limbs torn from your bodiy or your skin burned off or your brain battered into pulp.
Fighting with ideas and make a mistake - lots and lots of letters from people.
gee, they sure seem equivalent to me.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:07 amReichties can’t seem to keep their ego’s in check. They want to think they are part of something valient without putting their own ASSES ON THE LINE…
I’d say they were more like valium.
If you support it so much, go & join up. The Army wants the deranged & feeble like you.
The rest of us, we’ll fight to keep america great by chucking the assholes who’ve brought us to this space in time.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:07 amThis is a lame thread. Later. Let me know when ANYONE in our government acknowledges there are peaceful Americans who have a real problem supporting the oppressive Israel.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:08 amHas anyone “warned †Americans that unless we honor Palestinian Right of Return there will always be terrorism?
Does honoring this Right of Return include displacing the 6.2 million Israelis?
July 25th, 2006 at 10:09 amJudd says: But blogging on the National Review (or ThinkProgress, for that matter) is not the equivalent of Churchill warning the world about Hitler.
Yeah, especially since Churchill, Roosevelt, and their backers weren’t a bunch of pathologically dishonest propagandists like Clifford May and his pals at NRO.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:10 am“When the only tool you have is a hammer (war), everything becomes a nail (enemy).” We need new descriptive language that is not black and white in nature. Of course, blogging no where near the committment, courage, and risk of soldiers fighting. But, neither is it irrelevant. Democracy requires information and debate, to which blogging does contribute. This can help us think outside the box that we often put ourselves into, such as the “war” on drugs, “war” on poverty, “war” on terrorism, and lead us to new solutions. A single blog is like a drop of water, powerless by itself but when combined with other drops can be a major, environment changing force. We need to keep everything in perspective.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:12 amWhile working on her review of the new Oliver Stone movie Katherine Lopez tragically broke a fingernail and was awarded a purple heart. Also Cliff May was awarded the Medal of Freedom for his outstanding service in misinformation in the “War on the Internets”.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:13 am#32 - Well said, PLC.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:13 am(sigh)
Cliff May needs to stay off the Kool Aid.
Operation Yellow Elephant continues…
July 25th, 2006 at 10:14 amAbout Churchill….not really.
Churchill in the 1930s was not advocating a pre-emptive war against Germany. Churchill was advocating re-armament. The Brits had laid down their arms at the end of WWI and the British public had no taste for war after that bloody conflict. Churchill advocated re-armament as deterrent and for defense, since due to the pacifism of both England and France neither country was forcing Hitler to abide by the Treaty of Versailles.
Churchill, of course, was right and May is correct that he lost the “war of ideas” in the 1930s. Beyond that, May’s use of Churchill as an example is all wet. If Churchill had been Cliff May, he would have demonized Hitler, advocated re-armament, and then invaded Poland, just to show those dirty Nazis who was boss.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:18 amthey all think they are Churchill, trying to warn us of the terrible looming threat. They get a nice comfortable heroic high out of doing this thankless work.
Thing is, they are NOT Churchill, Saddam is not Hitler, Liberals are not fifth columnists, and so on.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:20 amLook out, Cliff! There’s a sniper picking off wankers in the break room!
July 25th, 2006 at 10:21 am#37 - You’re right, Saddam is not Hitler, was not Hitler, never wanted to be Hitler.
Islamic fundamentalism presents a similar threat to the fascism that Hilter supported. That, I believe, is the point of comparsion - not Saddam.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:23 amAnd your e-mailer is ignorant about how wars are fought, about how wars are won and lost, and about the way the world actually works.
Right. Because you know how widely read blogs are by Islamo-fascist terrorists. The right topic with just the right choice of words can be enough to topple them spiritually, emotionally and psychologically. Go, Bloggers, go!!!
July 25th, 2006 at 10:25 amCHRISTIAN fundamentalism presents a similar threat to the fascism that the ignorant among them support.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:26 amIslamic fundamentalism presents a similar threat to the fascism that Hilter supported. That, I believe, is the point of comparsion - not Saddam. Comment by Chase
And, thus, our “war on Iraq” is irrelevant. Case/Chase closed.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:26 amIf war is what they want, then war is what they’ll get…
R.I.P Dog Snot Diaries
July 25th, 2006 at 10:27 amI’m sure those valiant bloggers (like May) risk their lives daily - it must be hell in
July 25th, 2006 at 10:28 amthe front lines sitting at the keyboard. May is just another gutless coward - get off
your butt and pick up a gun and go fight your war.
#39, Saddam was not a facist, he was a socialist. OTOH, Bush is a facist.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:28 amMay wants to see himself as a soldier. I think “terrorist” would be a more appropriate analogy. His thinking and writing don’t represent the country as a whole, they represent a faction. There is no more hierarchy or discipline in his method of fighting than there is in a terrorist organization. What he does is in support of an ideology, not a nation. And he doesn’t stand up on a field of battle, he hides in an office and hurls rhetorical bombs at the general populace.
May, you’re not fighting a war. You’re not doing anything remotely similar to fighting. Don’t piss on my leg and tell me it’s raining.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:29 amK-lo , Myrna Blyth, yeah that’s the future for women in the conservative movement, movie critics and upper east side kept gossip queens. Cliff may reminds me of the a Dick Cheney clone that pops his head out like an Alien version of Chicken Little just to get everyone’s attention. If the World really works Cliff’s way , where is the leadership for this movement? Every one is still reeling from WFB’s assertion that President Bush’s legacy is going to be indecipherable. Well they’ll just have to wait for Mit. I’m sure the Social Conservatives would learn to love a Mormon. Tough days ahead, poor darlings.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:31 amIslamic fundamentalism presents a similar threat to the fascism that Hilter supported. That, I believe, is the point of comparsion - not Saddam.
Comment by Chase
Earth to Chase….the Islamic fundamentals in the region, including Osama, wanted Saddam to be overthrown because he was a secular dictator. Granted he used religious phrases in speeches, as most dictators do, but he snuffed out religious fundamentalism in his country because it was considered a threat to his rule.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:33 am#30 chase……who was it that suggested we ship 11 million Mexicans back home?
go talk to him
July 25th, 2006 at 10:34 amGrandpa Cliff, what did you do in the war?
Well, little darlin’, I got a big callus on my right thumb, from a sticky space bar, don’t ya know, and a fair few nasty paper cuts and broken fingernails. Sweetheart? Grandpa doesn’t like to talk about it much, because he’s still in treatment for the PTSD. Want a balloon?
July 25th, 2006 at 10:34 amWhat a joke. Here’s another historical comparison:
“War of Ideas” indeed…
July 25th, 2006 at 10:35 am#45 - Saddam was not a facist, he was a socialist. OTOH, Bush is a facist.
I never said Saddam was a fascist. He was hardly a socialist either (regardless of the name his party selected).
He was a brutal autocrat that ruled over an oppressive totalitarian police state who killed somewhere between 100,000 and 240,000 civilians during his rule (not including those lives lost during the course of wars against Iran and the US/UK/Coalition).
July 25th, 2006 at 10:37 amHe was a brutal autocrat that ruled over an oppressive totalitarian police state who killed somewhere between 100,000 and 240,000 civilians during his rule
Comment by Chase
So whats Bushie’s civilian body count so far?
July 25th, 2006 at 10:39 am#49 - I don’t know who said that. Whoever did is an idiot.
#48 - Saddam wasn’t an “Islamic fundamentalists”. Again, I never made that claim. I don’t support that claim.
Saddam did (at one time or another) have chemical and biological weapons and weapons programs. He also had a nuclear weapons program. The threat of those technologies being transfered to actual Islamic fundamentalists was too great.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:41 am#54
Regarding #48 - Saddam wasn’t an “Islamic fundamentalistsâ€. Again, I never made that claim. I don’t support that claim.
Reread it and I see what you meant.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:43 amSomewhere between 39,000 and 42,000 Iraqi civilians have been killed since the 2003 invasion.
There is a distinction. Since 2003, Iraq has been an actual war zone, with active, open combat. The same can hardly be said about Saddam rule.
Most the civilians killed during his time were through gassings, touture, execution.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:43 amIslamic fundamentalism presents a similar threat to the fascism that Hilter supported. That, I believe, is the point of comparsion - not Saddam. Comment by Chase
I really don’t get this at all. Hitler was head of a large, industrialized, militarized state in the middle of Europe. He used the power of his country to invade other countries and commit genocide. He allied with two other sovereign countries (three, if you count Spain) to plunge the entire world into total war that caused the deaths of millions and ended up redrawing the map of Europe and Asia.
Islamic fundamentalism, if by that you mean the motley crews committing terrorist acts, is disorganized, decentralized, marginalized– that’s why they choose terrorism as their mode of warfare. There are countries that are run or dominated by Islamic fundamentalists, but how big a threat are they? Iran hasn’t invaded anyone recently. Not only is Saddam not Hitler, neither is Osama bin Laden. They can certainly wreak havoc on the world, but the only way they’re going to drag us all into war is if Bush actually convinces us this is a world war.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:45 amMore important than what the propagandist Cliff May says is that the world trade center was brought down by demolition, and 9/11 was an inside job.
THERE… IS… NO… DOUBT
July 25th, 2006 at 10:47 am#56
Plus Afghanis?
To make a distinction between dead people makes no difference to them Chase. But I guess they have no voice in the matter now do they?
July 25th, 2006 at 10:47 ameveryone seems rather impressed with their own ability to assess what is going on these days
funny, just from reading and viewing, many of us get a different picture drawn for us
that makes us all nuts I guess.
americans actually need to find out what being attacked is like. we haven’t been yet, there is no proof yet about any guys from house of saud. we are told that is who attacked, but the people telling have lied about almost everything they have said publicly.
so, let’s assume that everything our government says is a lie.
time to change things or we aren’t going to be here.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:47 am“Has anyone “warned †Americans that unless we honor Palestinian Right of Return there will always be terrorism?
Does honoring this Right of Return include displacing the 6.2 million Israelis?
Comment by Chase”
Please explain your ignorant comment. Do you even know what you are blathering about?
July 25th, 2006 at 10:51 am#57 - The threat of Islamic fundamentalism is much more insidious.
When those who seek to destroy entirely the Western way of life, the non-Muslim world, are the leaders of nations, they then have the power of the state behind them.
Is their being in power, in and of itself, dangerous? Not necessarily. But how real does that threat become should they acquire WMD, either through their own programs as in Iran or via the black-market? Very real.
Countries like India (or even China) are not really a threat when it comes to nuclear weapons. Their motive is not the destruction of the United States and the death of our civilian population. The same cannot be said for Osama.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:52 amImagine that! All of the sudden, that’s a positive to NROs in their under-ROOs!
July 25th, 2006 at 10:54 amChase, Osama’s been dead since 2001. I defy you to prove otherwise.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:55 am#59 - To make a distinction between dead people makes no difference to them Chase.
By this you mean? I’m not defending or excusing the civilian deaths that have occured in Iraq since 2003. Every single one of them is unfortunate. I draw the distinction because, from a practical standpoint, when an open war is going on, there will be civilian casualties.
#60 - americans actually need to find out what being attacked is like. we haven’t been yet,
Get a clue.
#61 - What happens to the Israeli state if you grant the right of return? Remember, you would be readmitting people into Israel who don’t accept the existance of Israel.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:58 am#64 - Video, audio broadcasts authenicated by the CIA.
I defy you to prove he’s dead.
July 25th, 2006 at 10:59 amTripMaster Monkey …From your lips to God’s ears….I wish nothing more than knowing that Bin Laden is burining in Hell right now…
July 25th, 2006 at 11:00 amVietnam was lost militarily when the public support for it was eroded by those who fought with words / ideas. Words / ideas are an essential part of the overall war effort, and while those who fight with words instead of weapons may not be risking their lives, they are certainly risking their livelihoods, so a sacrifice is being made.
Currently, Rush Limbaugh, Bill O-Rielly, Michelle Malkin and all other media pundits have been very effective at answering and pushing back the likes of Cindy Sheehan and John Murtha. Without those voices, it would have been far more difficult to stay the course.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:04 amAhhhh the poor little right wing punditocracy isn’t getting it’s fair share of meritocracy for witing wall wose wittle words…oh boo hooo typing on a blog few read is ohhh soooooo important.
Let me as this. Falwell and Robertson claim some 30 million of their fundamentalist members support this war, mostly for purposes of the second coming and visualize themselves as warriors.
If this is so, we should see today 30 million peoplle lined up to join the armed forces. We dont. Not even 1 million.
Hagee a Texas Minister has a group of 18,000 evangelicals whom want war, second coming thing, yet they marched to the capital with their billfolds and wallets and not to the recruiting offfice.
The College Republicans as well have not left college in droves to fight the war, they also must be Warriors of the Latop, swordsmen of the cellphone. There Job’s are to run around the internet, the tubes, and write inflammatory crap, speaking of how brave and Patriotic they are as they type from the safety of their home, knowing damn good and well they won’t serve.
So where are the 30 million patriots and why aren’t their lines around the recruiting offices? Where are these millions of freepers?
July 25th, 2006 at 11:05 amWhat happens to the Israeli state if you grant the right of return? Remember, you would be readmitting people into Israel who don’t accept the existance of Israel.
Comment by Chase — July 25, 2006
I really tire of the posts from this cretin.
Take your ass to the recruiter office & please just shut up.
Your Alligator mouth is forever outrunning your Chicken Hawk Ass and YOU are not doing a JOB for your SIDE if all you can do is type crap all day long.
shut up shut up shut up shut up shut up
Jeeezzzz.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:09 am#71, where,
Did you sign up when Clinton sent troops to Somolia or Bosnia?
July 25th, 2006 at 11:11 am#70 - You didn’t answer my question.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:12 am#71, where,
Did you sign up when Clinton sent troops to Somolia or Bosnia?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — July 25, 2006
I signed up decades ago son.
As did my father and brother, my uncle and grandfather, my brother in law is currently in air force.
Have YOU??
July 25th, 2006 at 11:13 am[…] I bet they have imaginary friends, too. […]
July 25th, 2006 at 11:15 am#70 - Not to mention the “WHY AREN’T YOU IN THE MILITARY!!!!!!” argument is a shitty one.
I’m not in the military (yet) because their is not a draft (yet).
July 25th, 2006 at 11:16 amI’m not in the military (yet) because their is not a draft (yet).
Comment by Chase — July 25, 2006
spoken like a true PATRIOT,,,
you are Pathetic and Tedious.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:18 amAnd then there is the fact that Churchill served in the army upon graduation from Sandhurst, eventually saw combat, and was later captured and held as a POW.
And all this BEFORE he fights the war of ideas.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:19 amChase:
First of all, I’m not the one who used him as a talking point. That was you. Therefore, the burden of proof is on you.
Second, you mentioned video tapes…are you by any chance referring to this tape? Or perhaps you were referencing this tape…
Doesn’t matter which one…each tape shows a different ‘Osama’, and both ‘Osamas’ are obviously not the real McCoy, CIA ‘authentications’ notwithstanding.
Finally, just one more inconvenient fact for you…turns out that Osama was suffering from end-stage renal failure in 2001.
A fugitive hiding in caves is not likely to be able to receive the regular dialysis treatments that bin Laden required to stay alive.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:19 am77 - Chase,
July 25th, 2006 at 11:22 amOr verbs?
#79 - Wow, disparging a developmental hanicap is a very liberal and progressive thing to do.
Anyway, I think it’s fair to say youre nothing but a troll, trying to hijack an actual conversation so I’ll go ahead and ignore you (unless you actually change your path and start discussing the points and merits of your side).
July 25th, 2006 at 11:22 am#71
It’s always amusing when the war of ideas includes complete bullshit like “when Clinton sent troops to Somalia”.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:22 amNote: ThinkProgress is a place to discuss and debate the issues, not engage in flame wars. If you want to flame each other, please go elsewhere.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:23 am#79 - Walt - Pardon?
July 25th, 2006 at 11:23 amThank you Judd.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:24 amAnd if there were to be a draft Chase would pull a Rove and attend six colleges, never graduate, never serve, just like his hero cheney limbaugh coulter and rove…many others.
Chase is a Pedant Puke of the PC meritocrASSy
Chase sounds almost exactly like that college parisite patriot failed academic jeff goldstein, the walter mitty of the Blathersphere armchair patriot squad of kick ass tough nerds who will only serve when there is a draft, or a mandator service act, which may be in the works BTW.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:25 am#83 - Chase,
July 25th, 2006 at 11:26 am#77 disappeared.
Re # 36.
Jennifer is correct that Churchill called for re-armament as a deterrent to the growing threat posed by Germany.
The closer parallel to Churchill in the 30s is not the current situation but more like Reagan calling for deployment of intermediate range missles in Nato countries unless the USSR entered into a treaty that actually reduced the number of nuclear weapons rather than just locking in the current numbers. In that parallel the pacifists of the 30s and the “nuclear freeze” movement played similar roles.
However; it is instructive to note that Churchill’s reaction to the Italian conquest of Ethiopia was different. He urged decisive, military action in that case because he reasoned, rightly, that allowing agression to go unchecked would only serve to encourage future agression. Here it seems that Bush 41 learned history’s lesson well and acted correctly to see to it the world’s democracies (and some others) punished Saddam’s invasion of Kuwaiit.
Lastly, when Germany began to nakedly ignore the provisions of her treaty obligations, Churchill did advocate a military response.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:27 amDear Cliff May,
Praise the Lord and pass the crunchy Cheetos!
July 25th, 2006 at 11:27 amChase:
Was your earlier comment about ‘disparaging develomental handicaps’ directed at me? (difficult to tell because numbers are changing due to posts being removed.)
If so, please explain.
If not, please reply, as the ball is still in your court.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:27 am#89 - No, no. Mr. Where? called me an asperger of a patriot (or something).
I don’t recall what your arguement was (disappearing posts is confusing).
Oh UBL. I don’t know. I tend to think he’s dead as well. But I also tend to think the CIA has no motivation for authenticating tapes that they know aren’t him.
I’m confused on the topic to be honest.
#85 - No, actually, if there were a draft and I were called, I would serve. I’m also seriously considering JAG in a couple years. I have to get their first.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:31 amI’m not defending or excusing the civilian deaths that have occured in Iraq since 2003. Every single one of them is unfortunate. I draw the distinction because, from a practical standpoint, when an open war is going on, there will be civilian casualties.
Comment by Chase
I am sure they will thank you for your kind understanding when you meet them. But you forget about the point of this war being a war of choice. By our dear leader. Which makes him the one responsible. Do you agree? Or will you put up a weak argument on his behalf. The Decider decided. Mass amounts of civilians are dead and dieing. Your argument for the civilian causulties during war is weak. When Saddam was waging war against Iran and he gassed the Kurds because he felt threatened they were going to overthrow his government could fall in this pathetic arguement also.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:32 amAll BS all the time. Put the people of the media including top management, war profiteer management, right wing “think tanks”, k-street, all of congress & senate and the administration in Anbar provence or Basra with some armour, a gun and 100 rounds of ammo. Leave them there for a week. Then pick them up, who ever is left, and then we will see what the reality is.
PS: They are only protected by each other like our troups.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:33 amChase:
But I also tend to think the CIA has no motivation for authenticating tapes that they know aren’t him.
You’re joking, right?
Look very carefully at the timing of these tapes and the ‘motivation’ should be patently obvious.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:35 am#73, where?,
OK, then it is fair for you to ask. Previously, I debated with peaceniks screeching for others to sign up when they had no intent to EVER defend their country.
I registered when I was 18 and never called, but I did work in the defense industry developing communications equipment, which is NOT the same, but it is something.
I do support this President and his foreign policy actions, which were the result of 9/11. Iraq is part of the larger strategy of stablizing the middle east with democracies that will allow the militant youths a peaceful outlet for their aggression, which resulted, in part, from disenfranchisement under oppressive regimes.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:37 amMy two cents are
July 25th, 2006 at 11:37 am1) Not all Palestinians are Islamic Terror Fascists who refused to accept Israel existence.
2) Churchill served in uniform and was in actual combat situations. No blogger without military experience should compare themselves as his equal.
3) For those saying this is WW-III, when are you going to advocate putting America on a WW-II footing such as a) Mandatory draft of all 18-25 year olds? b) raising taxes and selling war bonds? c) instituting wage and price controls? d) rationing gas and food?
4) Or is this Cold War II in that it is a struggle between ideologies with varying level of adherents on both sides spread through countries across the world with only small numbers of extremists that are best opposed by police tactics and special ops versus large armies and massive invasions or air strikes?
Jim K
Wow!! It’s False Equivalence #947,320,991,615,882 from the self-righteous neocons!
July 25th, 2006 at 11:37 am#91 - When Saddam was waging war against Iran and he gassed the Kurds because he felt threatened they were going to overthrow his government could fall in this pathetic arguement also.
I don’t believe those numbers were included in the 100k-250k figure I quoted above. I’ve read, including deaths during war, Saddam saw around 1M die during his reign. That’s a lot.
Look, for the last time: I’m not going to defend the killing of civilians. I’m also not going to lay the blame on President Bush.
After all, Congress, including members from both parties, approved military force in Iraq.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:38 amYeah, Cliff May and the rest of the irght-wing are fighting a war. A war to overrun America and the world with their deluded ne-con ideas and ideology.
Anyhow, is Cliff really comparing lazt right-wing bloggers to U.S. soldiers dying by the thousands in Iraq and Afghanistan? I don’t think that’s very “patriotic”.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog.php
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July 25th, 2006 at 11:38 amhttp://www.sunstateactivist.org/forum
Look, for the last time: I’m not going to defend the killing of civilians. I’m also not going to lay the blame on President Bush.
After all, Congress, including members from both parties, approved military force in Iraq.
Comment by Chase
Well, at least you didn’t disappoint me and put up a rational argument. Do you mean the Congress that was fed faulty intelligence on purpose? Oh that one. And why should you blame the Decider…I mean having no responsibility has its perks. Especially when you have a legion of apologists.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:43 amSo I wonder what the 101st Keyboardist “warrirors” think of me? I served eight years in the Army and now I too fight the “war of ideas,” especially all the HORRIFIC neocon ideas that have so seriously screwed up my country the last six years.
You know, all you little right-wing doughy pantloads fighting this “war of ideas,” you can serve your country and STILL serve the “war on ideas” too. After all, the military doesn’t have to be a full-time career; they actually let you serve for two or four years and THEN you can get back to your civilian life.
The problem with these right-wing dipshits who spew out this piffle (I magine this Cliff May dork is a doughy pantload of the highest magnitude) is that they’re seriously self-deluded and probably crazy. It would be funny if it weren’t for the fact our current national leadership holds the same insane views as these wacky chickenhawks.
A war of ideas indeed. Follow me, infantry!
July 25th, 2006 at 11:44 am#93 - I have a hard time believe the intelligence professionals in the CIA would do that. If they did, considering the current climate, wouldn’t we know by now?
Isn’t there more to gain, back in 2001 and now, by claiming success in killing UBL than by having him put out silly messages that don’t frighten even the pansiest of pansies?
July 25th, 2006 at 11:44 amI was going to post about Inhoff’s “Global Warming is a Conspiracy Theory” insanity, but it has become quite clear from this that these people have lost their F-ing minds.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:46 amThis so called global war on terror is entirely about ideas.
”
#62 “The threat of Islamic fundamentalism is much more insidious.
When those who seek to destroy entirely the Western way of life, the non-Muslim world, are the leaders of nations,”
Islamic fundamentalism is not an army but an idea or movement. but, i think the fear of western ideas and culture destroying their culture and religon is more of an impetous than wanting the destruction of the western way of life. Western ideas have conqured the globe, in just about every corner of the globe, you can find western style dress, western ideas like “american style democracy”, western movies and western icons like KFC. Western stlye globalized corporations affect life in just about every cpuntry in the world. Many western ideas directly conflict with Islamic fundamentalist teaching. While western men enjoy oggling SI swimsuit edition, muslims view it as an obscene exploitation of a womens body. In many ways muslim fundamentlism has values and ideals comparable to christian fundamentalism. On the economic side western corporations enslave the muslims, A Pakistani man for example might feel he would be prouder if his son was a Jihadist rather than making shirts for Malmart at $1.00 a day. corporate exploitation of third world labor is something liberals and islamic fundamentalist might agree on. Jihadists and neocons have similar ideas that the brutal use of force,killing anyone who disagrees or threatens their way of life is the way for their side to prevail. Its all about ideas, western ideas are surely prevailing, islamic fundamentalism is in survival mode.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:48 amThe gang at the Corner isn’t engaged in a “war of ideas,” anyway. They’re engaged in a war of politics. It’s like a war of ideas, except sleazier and of far less value to the world.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:54 am#99 - This is actually a characteristic of the “unitary executive” (in the Alex Hamilton sense, not the David Addington sense) I admire.
With a single executive, you have singular responsibility. The president bears the responsibility for (and can equally take credit) for many decisions. This responsbility is exacted at elections. The jury was (apparently) still out in 2004. We’ll have a better idea how responsible the GOP is in 2006 and even more so in 2008.
As for the faulty intelligence argument, I don’t like it. We know many conclusions were incorrectly drawn. Looking back, I think we can agree analysts looking at the same information might reach different ends.
Members of Congress had access to, not only the summaries, but much of the same documentation the EOP had. They drew the same conclusions. Gov’ts around the world thought Saddam had WMD. I think it’s more likely everyone was “wrong” rather than “misleading”.
July 25th, 2006 at 11:55 am#105
July 25th, 2006 at 12:02 pmThe only intelligance the White House listened and used was the “intelligence” gathered by Rummy’s DOD. Not the CIAs and others. Why do you think that was so? Because it was the only source that supported their points. Saying everyone(all intelligence agencies) were wrong shows just how much you need to do some more fact checking and sourcing for yourself. No one else can do it for you. You may not “like it” when you find it but at least you can have a better understanding. And responsibility is not exacted at the polls. Stupid men are elected all the time.
Reply to Chase:
I have a hard time believe the intelligence professionals in the CIA would do that.
And that is exactly the attitude that allows them to get away with it. Try trusting your own eyes instead of what the administration spoon-feeds you. Can you honestly say that this, this, and this are all images of the same person???
If they did, considering the current climate, wouldn’t we know by now?
Unfortunately not, since the vast majority of us can’t be bothered to do even a nominal amount of research, and instead are content to sit on the couch and absorb whatever pablum FOX news is serving up this evening.
Isn’t there more to gain, back in 2001 and now, by claiming success in killing UBL than by having him put out silly messages that don’t frighten even the pansiest of pansies?
Absolutely not. ‘Success’ implies a conclusion to the War on Terror that runs counter to this administration’s claims. It is not in the interest of this administration to end the war. As for the messages not being ‘frightening’….they’re not meant to be….they’re meant to keep the face of the ‘enemy’ fresh in our minds…to never let us forget that we’re engaged in a holy crusade against evil, and to distract us from the real enemy…the enemy who’s been whittling away our constitutional rights since 9/11, as well as murdering tens of thousands of innocent civilians worldwide.
Quite simply put, Osama bin Laden is this administration’s Emmanuel Goldstein, and each ‘authenticated’ tape is paraded in front of us so we can engage in our ‘two minutes hate’.
(I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again….it behooves every responsible citizen of this nation to procure and read George Orwell’s 1984. It’s obvious our administration has read it….don’t you think you ought to, as well?)
July 25th, 2006 at 12:06 pm#106 - The only intelligance the White House listened and used was the “intelligence†gathered by Rummy’s DOD.
That may well be true. But do you mean to say that the CIA drew opposing opinions and they were ignored by the 77 Senators who voted for the resolution? Did they also choose to only listen to DOD intelligence?
What about other nations who also drew the independent conclusion Saddam had WMD?
As for elections - so what that “stupid men” are elected all the time? People vote for candidates who advocate positions with which they agree. Less often, they vote for someone in order to prevent their opponent from taking office.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:09 pmIt doesn’t matter if we blog or not. Bush doesn’t give a shit about popular opinion and he will still launch his crazy wars and enforce his domestic policy, even if 100% of America (bloggers included) disagreed with him.
Take Bush’s recent stem cell research veto as an example. Bush vetoed that not because the majority of the people that he’s supposed to represent wanted him to veto it, but because of Bush’s own ideology. This is very scary because the purpose of a representative republic is that the elected officials are supposed to cater to the wishes of the majority of the voting public, regardless of their own ideological values! He went against what 75% of the public wanted. Disappointing for a guy who’s supposed to represent what the people want. A politician with absolute power that will sign legislation based on his own personal ideology, regardless of weather or not the majority of the public is a dictator. By giving the finger to 75% of the American public and to a strong bipartisan majority in congress, Bush abandoned his roll as president and took up the position of a dictator.
So go ahead and fight your wars through blogging. It makes no difference. The publics ideology doesn’t mean anything if it’s not the same as our dictator’s ideology. This country needs a revolution for a war of ideas to have any impact, not typing something that will only be supported by those who have no power anyway (the people).
July 25th, 2006 at 12:12 pmThere is a wealth of evidence pointing to faulty intelligence and how it was pushed thru. That is now only part of what has transpired since. Rumsfield’s push for less troops, hoping the Iraq ministries would be left intact, the total blunder of writing into Phase IV (after war phase) that the same military they destroyed during the conflict would be a major part of keeping order.
There are many arguments to question why we invaded Iraq. The larger problem is the total missmanagement of Iraq after we conquered a third world military.
Bush, Rummy and the rest would have been fired a long time ago if this was in the business world.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:13 pm#108
You are the one who used this statement,
Members of Congress had access to, not only the summaries, but much of the same documentation the EOP had. They drew the same conclusions. Gov’ts around the world thought Saddam had WMD. I think it’s more likely everyone was “wrong†rather than “misleadingâ€.
I was pointing out that there were many other sources of intelligence that did not agree with the ones that the White House used. Many of our allies did not agree and many of our own intelligence sources did not agree. The Decideer decided what to use and present to Congress and th UN and the people of the US. No one else. The Decider.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:15 pm#107 - Can you honestly say that this, this, and this are all images of the same person???
Yes. You can easily be deceived by your eyes.
Unfortunately not, since the vast majority of us can’t be bothered to do even a nominal amount of research, and instead are content to sit on the couch and absorb whatever pablum FOX news is serving up this evening.
No, no. I’m not talking about the average Joe uncovering this. There have been leaks about CIA programs that can, to varying extents, be legitimately defended. If there was an effort within the CIA to falsly authenticate UBL tapes knowing he was dead, I am confident that would have surfaced by now.
I don’t think most Americans have a problem remember the individual behind the attacks of 9/11. I don’t think we need to see his face or hear his voice to remember who he is and what he stands for.
Your mistake, and those like you, is confusing the real enemy with a resonable threat. Of course there is a danger that our government might infringe upon our rights from time to time. I think we are sufficently dilligent at rebuffing those attempts.
I loved 1984. Great book. Great warning message. We aren’t even in the same ballpark as that, much less the same dugout.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:16 pmChase,
July 25th, 2006 at 12:19 pmYou’re running out of talking points, eh?
You still have time to sign up.
We had a draft in ‘68 when I signed up to be a Marine medic.
Average lifespan of a Marine medic in ‘68 was 3 days ‘in country’.
You can take your talking points to Baghdad; just be sure to learn the language.
In fact, before you go, round up the rest of the ‘Blogging Warriors’ & take them with.
Be prepared to see children’s body parts on the street. Did they have anything to say
about the ‘March to Freedom’. Is death freedom? If so, set yourself free & STFU.
Neocons worship the Profit Margin, not Jesus Christ.
[…] All hail those brave National Review Bloggers, fighting a war that is as “equally consequential” as the ones our troops are fighting (and dieing) for in Iraq. We should organize a parade for the writers of The Corner. We can have a Jonah Goldberg float! And ribbons and rose petals for those brave, brave warriors. […]
July 25th, 2006 at 12:23 pm#111 - The Decideer decided what to use and present to Congress and th UN and the people of the US.
So the intelligence that said “NO! Saddam isn’t as dangerous as you think he is! He’s a nice guy!” that we had, that other nations had, never saw the light of day?
Or did it see the light of day, was reviewed and rejected in favor of other views? I think this is the case.
Bush made his push. Congress had access to intelligence. They made a determination force was appropriate. Other nations came to an independent conclusion in favor of force.
Some didn’t, sure. But because some did, I take that as a sign some of the evidence was compelling.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:29 pm#15 the infamous kei & yuri,
I Thank You! That was perfectly said.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:31 pm#113- You’re running out of talking points, eh?
No, actually I’m not. No more than the left is running on DNC talking points I guess.
At least I’m not talking on made up bullshit.
Average lifespan of a Marine medic in ‘68 was 3 days ‘in country’.
Got any proof of this? A single source? Please do.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:32 pmReply to Chase:
Yes. You can easily be deceived by your eyes.
Bullshit. It’s one thing to say that eyewitness testimony can be unreliable. It’s another thing entirely to have two images side by side, take measurements of various facial proportions such as cheekbone height and nose width, and find that they do not match. Perhaps you ought to visit the links I provided…no matter…others will, whether you will or not.
No, no. I’m not talking about the average Joe uncovering this. There have been leaks about CIA programs that can, to varying extents, be legitimately defended.
Ah….like the Alec Station program, which was unaccountably discontinued? And why again does Osama’s FBI wanted poster have no mention of 9/11? Surely, these video tapes must be incontravertible evidence of Osama’s involvement, right?
I don’t think most Americans have a problem remember the individual behind the attacks of 9/11.
I agree that most American’s don’t have a problem remembering the individual blamed for the attacks…the administration has been doing an excellent job of hammering that into us.
Your mistake, and those like you, is confusing the real enemy with a resonable threat.
Your mistake is mindlessly following the Party line, despite overwhelming evidence that it is a lie. Whether your blindness is voluntary or not is not the issue, since the effect upon those who read your excuses for our administration’s conduct is the same.
I loved 1984. Great book.
I’m certain you did. I’m sure Rove loved it too.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:35 pm“And blogging is not “equally consequential†to the wars fought by members of the United States military, who put their lives at risk every day.”
May was not referring to “blogging” as being equal to the troops fighting in Iraq and Afghanistan. TP needs not try and put other people’s words in THEIR own context.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:37 pmChase,
Did Critics See the Same Intelligence?
For his part, President Bush claims that Democrats examined the evidence before the war. “They looked at the same intelligence I did, and they voted — many of them voted — to support the decision I made,” said the president.
That is a claim made by many administration officials in the past two weeks — that everyone saw the same intelligence. But former Sen. Bob Graham, who is also a former chairman of the Senate Intelligence committee, disagrees. Graham notes that members of Congress do not have access to the President’s Daily Brief, a highly classified document containing specific and contextual intelligence. And he says he was stunned to find that in the run-up to the war, the president did not order a National Intelligence Estimate regarding Iraq, despite the fact that the Senate Intelligence Committee demanded that one be drawn up.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:39 pmChase,
Seven months before the invasion of Iraq, the head of British foreign intelligence reported to Prime Minister Tony Blair that President Bush wanted to topple Saddam Hussein by military action and warned that in Washington intelligence was “being fixed around the policy,” according to notes of a July 23, 2002, meeting with Blair at No. 10 Downing Street.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:40 pmChase,
In the only comprehensive assessment of Iraq’s weapons of mass destruction released to the public before the war, the CIA exaggerated and distorted the evidence it had given Congress just days earlier, according to the Senate intelligence committee’s report released last week.
The White Paper, released Oct. 4, 2002, and based on a classified assessment given to Congress, was the public’s only look at the intelligence that policymakers used to decide whether Iraq posed enough of a threat to warrant immediate military action.
Still think that everyone(Congress adn the people iof the US) had access tothe same intelligence?
July 25th, 2006 at 12:43 pmI did that with five minutes of googling. I can provide links but I doubt you like to look at documents that you don’t “like to see”.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:44 pm#119 - I visited them. They look similar enough for me to conclude “same guy”. Sorry.
I’m pretty sure Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11. For one, I know he refused UBL access when he was ejected from Solamlia (likely because he didn’t need the heat at the time that taking in UBL would bring). That doesn’t mean that senior Iraqi officials didn’t meet with, or were closely affiliated with AQ operatives. Nevertheless, I don’t think Iraq had prior knowledge of 9/11.
And in emphasising “blamed” you mean to say that UBL wasn’t responsible for 9/11? Are you an “inside-job” conspiracy wacko?
#121, 122 - Why no NIE was ordered is beyond me. Huge mistake.
What difference would having access to the PDB made upon deciding to authorize military force in Iraq or not?
If the Congressmen felt they were being misled, or that they werent being told the whole story, they didnt voice that very loudly, now did they? Particuarly the ones who voted in favor.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:50 pmSo Congress saw the unexageraged version and still voted for war?
July 25th, 2006 at 12:54 pm“BUT, many on the Left are attempting to dismantle our system of governance and economy and THAT I criticize. Comment by Mighty Moron”
Then you’re a retarded idiot, because it’s the CONs who want to CON america out of its governance and economy. That means you’re either a fool, a liar, or both. I say both.
“Personal responsibility, rewards and consequences are natural in human nature and many on the Left attempt to trample that nature. Comment by Mighty Moron”
Human Nature? More baseless lies. Humans are a species based more on cooperative than competition. You’re describing Orangs or other solitary monkies. While I’m sure you have few friends, and probably trust no one, you aren’t describing humans, you’re describing your dysfunctional state of mental illness.
As for rewards and consequences, that would be nice, but that’s now what you NeoCONazis want. You want a system that retains power for those that currently have money and their offspring. You want to have all of the benefits and none of the consequences for your ignorant and selfish acts. You are completely irresponsible, and this little retarded rant of yours is a prime example. You’re nothing mroe than modern day eugenics freaks who don’t know crap about yourself, let alone human nature.
This WHACKO PSEUDOSCIENCE that the Fascists and Nazis came up with about human nature to justify selfish, boorish and uncooperative anti-human nature is just the same BORING ZZZzzzzz., set of lies you’ve been telling since Hitler.
“As many problems as are here, there is NO other place I would rather live. Comments by Mighty Moron”
That’s because a Nazi like you would be on a watch list in europe as a skinhead radical.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:57 pmBlogging is a war only in that we can describe any conflict as a war, to the extent that two ladies can wage war over a blue dress at Filene’s Basement.
I’m of the opinion that fighting to defend the right to express opinions is more noble than actually expressing them. However, the two require each other - without defense of freedoms, the freedoms cannot be expressed. Without expression, the defense becomes a pointless cause.
You can defend your flag and burn it too. That’s the beauty of America.
July 25th, 2006 at 12:59 pm“If the Congressmen felt they were being misled, or that they werent being told the whole story, they didnt voice that very loudly, now did they? Particuarly the ones who voted in favor.
Comment by Chase ”
Most of Congress was naive as to the true nature of you and the rest of the NeoCONazis. They had no ideas of the lengths you would go to in order to lie and get your way. They know now, and that’s why they are beginning to say the president’s authority under AUMF should be revolked.
You are typical of the reichwing nazis. You lie, and then blame the person you lied to for not catching you. You’re sick, disturbed and psychotic stupid people!
July 25th, 2006 at 1:00 pm#126
July 25th, 2006 at 1:01 pmWhat? Where do your eyes see that?
If the Congressmen felt they were being misled, or that they werent being told the whole story, they didnt voice that very loudly, now did they? Particuarly the ones who voted in favor.
Tell oh enlightened one how does one ask for something when they think the other party is giving them all the undistorted facts in the first place because they are required to by law. That is the stupidest apologist argument to date.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:03 pmReply to Chase:
I visited them. They look similar enough for me to conclude “same guyâ€. Sorry.
So let me get this straight. According to you, ‘you can easily be decieved by your eyes’, but you conclude that the images I linked to were all of the same person after only a cursory glance? Yes, I bet you did love George Orwell’s 1984…I’ll bet the concept of ‘doublethink’ held a special fascination for you…
Anyway, nice attempt at sidestepping the issue, but I’m not letting you off that easily. Measurements of facial proportions can be performed on the images and compared…and when they are, it is manifestly obvious that these images cannot be the same person.
I’m pretty sure Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11.
Good for you, but I believe we were discussing Osama bin Laden. Try to stay on topic.
And in emphasising “blamed†you mean to say that UBL wasn’t responsible for 9/11? Are you an “inside-job†conspiracy wacko?
And there it is…the classic reighwingnut ad homenim attack, used when the lies wear too thin for comfort. Took you long enough, but in the end, you didn’t disappoint…
If Osama bin Laden was in fact responsible for 9/11, would it be necessary to fabricate a ‘confesion’ video tape?
July 25th, 2006 at 1:07 pmGood Dr. Neat:
Most of Congress was naive as to the true nature of you and the rest of the NeoCONazis.
Naivety is not an excuse to abdicate constitutional responsibility.
They know now, and that’s why they are beginning to say the president’s authority under AUMF should be revolked.
Who’s saying that? Wait: who, with the authority to do so, is saying that?
#131 - My point is that they reviewed all the intelligence available to them and decided the AUMF was appropriate. Was the intelligence bad? Yes. I highly doubt, however, that it was ALL fabricated by the BushCoCabalFromHell. That’s a lot of power they frankly didn’t have.
#132 - Measurements of facial proportions can be performed on the images and compared…and when they are, it is manifestly obvious that these images cannot be the same person.
On that point we agree. Voice prints are also conclusive, are they not? Voice prints indicate UBL is alive. It’s science!
And I was staying on topic. I said Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 in response to this:
And why again does Osama’s FBI wanted poster have no mention of 9/11?
the classic reighwingnut ad homenim attack
Haha. Don’t act as though I pioneered the above! Look at this thread! Look at other threads from today! The left calls the right “idiots”, “morons”, hell, “reichwing”. Those are ad hominem by definition.
In any event, it’s a non-starter to claim anyone other than UBL was the root behind 9/11. You undermine your other (some strong) arguments by holding on to that bullshit.
If Osama bin Laden was in fact responsible for 9/11, would it be necessary to fabricate a ‘confesion’ video tape?
How about this: since UBL was responsible for 9/11, and wanted to take full credit, he recorded a video for disimination.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:20 pmhttp://www.teambio.org/ 2006/ 07/ government-trolls-our-tax-dollars-at-work/
Last week it was the revelation that the Department of Defense was going to be indexing blogs. Then it was the revelation that Marine recruiters were using My Space to lure people into the military. Now it seems our tax dollars are being used for military personnel to cruise blogs sites and spam the comment section. At least that is what it seems like after we received this comment today:
Greetings; my name is Spc. Patrick Ziegler with U.S. CENTCOM. While it is not my place to get involved in any political debates, I just wanted toinvite your readers to visit our website, http://www.centcom.mil . The CENTCOM website is a good place to get up-to-date news, press releases, video and audio from Iraq, Afghanistan and all other places within the Central Command.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:28 pm==
I sure hope that guy thats a patriot for bush, who won’t fight until a draft becomes a reality, I sure hope what’s his name go’s to this web site and joins up..
Reply to Chase:
On that point we agree. Voice prints are also conclusive, are they not? Voice prints indicate UBL is alive. It’s science!
Actually, no, they aren’t conclusive. They haven’t been conclusive for a while, and they certainly aren’t conclusive in the case of the bin Laden audio tapes. Thanks for conceding my point regarding the video images, though.
And I was staying on topic. I said Saddam had nothing to do with 9/11 in response to this:
You can’t seriously be this stupid. Where did I say Saddam? Point it out for us.
In any event, it’s a non-starter to claim anyone other than UBL was the root behind 9/11.
Explain the faked tapes, then.
How about this: since UBL was responsible for 9/11, and wanted to take full credit, he recorded a video for disimination.
Really? Then why exactly did bin Laden deny any involvement?
If this is the best you can do, Chase, you really need to quit. You’re embarassing the rest of the crazies.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:42 pmSomebody said on here that the Norwegian Sexion works for the National Review? That could be true, since he gets paid by somebody to hang out on TP threads > lol.
July 25th, 2006 at 1:42 pmI see that guy, whats his name is still here trying to prove that he is chicken, amazing things these hypocrites, as if they keep saying something it makes it true– sad little buggers aren’t they??
Yet we should Bless their little whiny hearts, they have their chicken chests all puffed up, feathers in a dissary, clucking and a squawking all the day long, rambling about how much evil in the world there is and how YOU must fight it.
Oh but don’t think this guy, what’s his name, isn’t a soldier of the 82nd geek keyboard crowd of neo-cons and dont think that he isn’t a hero, no sir-ree bob, they serve a purpose in this war of Ideas, didn’t you know Bush reads every post?
So does Olmert, yupp even the mainstream media reads what these pasty puffy chickens manage to scratch unto the monitors and press enter.
Computer monitors, cell phones, email and IM’s fill the measly in-home existence environment of the shut-ins, and it’s from this very same monitor, Teebe or Internet, that wisdom is derived. Yes it’s true, just ask anyone of them. They listen to teebee! They Know! And it’s their job to repeat, without question, what they ‘know’
Hail the mighty pundits and chicken hawk blatherers,like what’s his name, for the sky would surely fall to earth and wars would never be fought without those millions of binary bits, hacked out by chickenhacks, wafting thru the tubes of the internet!
Hail the great metaphorists and the paste eaters! Hail thee great Buckly Perle and Kristol, those patriotic warriors of the airwaves and the pasty pen!
Hail all the putrid patriots hiding in thin-tanks developing war plans for others to pursue and die for!
July 25th, 2006 at 1:50 pm[…] You may have seen this post from ThinkProgress on Cliff May’s response to K-Lo at the NRO Corner blog: On Friday, the National Review’s Katherine Jean Lopez wrote a rather innocuous review of the new Oliver Stone movie, World Trade Center. Lopez wrote the movie was “about why we fight.†[…]
July 25th, 2006 at 2:23 pmPerhaps they are equally consequential. None of us knows the truth about just how much Cheeto shrapnel has been dug out of Cliff’s ass since the war began, the PTSD coming from endless long nights thinking of new ways to defend the indefensible. The harsh deeds of rough cubicle-dwellers in the dark of night, so that the rest of us can sleep safe, and all.
Until you’ve been in the shit, hefted a blackberry through the Corner jungle for miles in Cliffy’s Florsheims, you just can’t know. All you can do is see the thousand-yard stare in The Pantload’s eyes, and wonder at what he’s gone through for his country. I’d give him a medal myself, if I wasn’t afraid I’d run out of aluminum foil.
It’s hard goddamned work, being a paid armchair quarterback for wingnut welfare program, and the hell with you reality-based folk for implying otherwise. The dolchstosslegende does not write itself, you know.
July 25th, 2006 at 2:39 pmEver notice the number of con trolls who “consider” enlisting, ROTC, OCS et al
July 25th, 2006 at 3:03 pmand yet never join the military. They can’t all have anal fissures can they?
#127 Poor little RyANNE - I detect just a hint of aggression and hostility. Philosophy students, Law Students, etc. TAKE NOTE - The following excerpts are NOT effective arguments:
“…you’re a retarded idiot”, “… you’re either a fool, a liar, or both. I say both,” “…your dysfunctional state of mental illness,”"…you NeoCONazis”
July 25th, 2006 at 3:48 pm“…Nazi like you would be on a watch list in europe as a skinhead radical.”
Back when I was in the military, if a senior officer had come to me and said,
“Son, you’re about to go to war, and I’m gonna give you a choice: do you wanna go to the war where they shoot at you and bomb you, or do you wanna go to the war of ideas, where you read and type stuff?”
Something tells me I’d have chosen the latter. Probably a bunch of dead and wounded guys would have made the same choice if it had ever been offered.
July 25th, 2006 at 4:22 pmCliff May,isn’t he the little turd of a fellow, that always looks like he needs to shave, and talks like he has a mouth full of male pubic hairs!
July 25th, 2006 at 4:23 pmIn Frankens book “Rush L. is a big fat Idiot”, there’s a chapter in it about a combat patrol in Nam with Bush,Quayle Rush,Ollie North, Newt and some of the other losers in the Rep. Party,that’s gut ripping funny,if you haven’t read it, read it.Cliff May would fit right in with those Chickenhawks!
July 25th, 2006 at 4:28 pmStone should call his movie, “Snakes Hijack Planes into Buildings” starring Sammy S. Jackson of course.
July 25th, 2006 at 4:30 pmOver three solid hours since my last post.
Chase’s deafening silence speaks volumes.
July 25th, 2006 at 4:45 pmkeep up the brave fight u wonderful brave right-wing chickenhawks………..
July 25th, 2006 at 4:46 pmpussies every last one of u…………
[…] Update. I hadn’t even read this yet. They really do think they’re doing something, don’t they? […]
July 25th, 2006 at 4:52 pm#146 - My apologies for the slow reply.
To start with: regarding Saddam having nothing to do with 9/11. Yeah. Upon review, I definitely injected Saddam into the convo, not you. My fault. Completely my fault. I misread it once and stuck with it. The dangers of multi-tasking…
As to the point about UBL not being behind 9/11 - I’m not going to entertain that. I am confident his is. I never really had any doubt, but if I did, the 9/11 Commission Report would have taken care of that.
You don’t think he was? So be it. You think President Bush (or anyone else in government for that matter) was behind it? I pity you.
Is UBL alive? I tend to think he is. He may not be! I don’t know. Honestly, I really don’t care.
July 25th, 2006 at 5:26 pmReply to