The conservative advocacy group GrasstopsUSA sent out a mass email yesterday featuring a column described as “a spectator’s guide to World War III — the Lebanese Front.” The title: “Kill ‘Em All. Let Allah Sort ‘Em Out.” Some low-lights:
A disproportionate response is the best kind. … What would a proportionate Israeli response be? Snatching two Hezbollah fighters, torturing them to death, cutting off their genitals and stuffing them in their mouths?
Lebanon used to be a nice little country, before the Sons of Allah got their blood-smeared hands on it. Believe it or not, Beirut was once…the most advanced and prosperous country in the Arab world — because a majority of Lebanese were Christians.
Israel needs to step-up its air strikes and send in the troops (can you say “massive deployment, baby?â€) to do the job only ground forces can do. … To resurrect and reconfigure one of my favorite Vietnam-era slogans — Kill ‘em all. Let Allah sort ‘em out.
GrasstopsUSA is no fringe group. Its executive director, Christopher Carmouche, sat on the exclusive host committee for last year’s high-profile “tribute” to then-House Majority Leader Tom DeLay (R-TX) (along with luminaries like Grover Norquist), and was a member of the National Coalition to End Judicial Filibusters, the conservative umbrella group run by Manuel Miranda, former staffer to Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN).
To resurrect and reconfigure one of my favorite Vietnam-era slogans — Kill ‘em all. Let Allah sort ‘em out.
Yes…because Viet Nam worked out so well, didn’t it?
July 26th, 2006 at 10:08 amI wonder if Bin Laden, Hezbollah, and other terrorist individuals/organizations have the same “kill them all and let Allah sort it out” attitude. Probably. “We have met the enemy and he is us”.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:14 amTwo things jump out at me:
The Sons of Allah started it. (The Sons of Allah always start it.)
Save us from the grown-up whiny kids from the school yard. They are truly dangerous now.
When we negotiate, we lose.
This the attitude that drives people like GWB and Condi Rice. This is why the back of my neck prickles and my knuckles go white, at the thought of these people being the \”adults\” in charge.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:18 amGroups labeled as “conservative” don’t really act very conservative these days. The corruptive influence of “Neo-Conservatism” … sigh.
Wisely, George Washington said stay out of foreign entanglements.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:21 amOkay, Fox News and Rush Limbaugh should really hype the hell out of this one, with special emphasis on it’s Conservative roots. Be loud, be proud!
July 26th, 2006 at 10:22 amtoss a hand grenade into a bush cabinet meeting……” kill em all, let god sort ‘em out”.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:29 amBoy, wouldn’t it be nice if a gigantic rock from outer space destroyed all of the red states and all their war mongers? What a bunch of simple minded 19th century goats. So sad and so true.
Talk about ‘left behind’, looks like these people haven’t matured, progressed, evolved, or even learned anything beyond the ole Sunday school fantasy conventions. Freaks, wierdos, and war mongers. Oh my.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:29 amThe immaturity of our “leadership” boggles my mind. I think there are a lot of NeoHumans who need a one way ticket to the war zone. Maybe then they will understand that War is not a fake, scripted game like the WWF.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:30 amI wonder what the world would be like if anyone advocating the death of others were required to have one of their children killed too. Perspective is everything and as long as it’s others who are dying for your beliefs, the reality of the terror will never have meaning to those advocating death as a solution to problems.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:30 amThis is also what Don Feder has on his website to “represent” himself.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:31 amAre we slowly marching toward a Civil War within the U.S. with this “kill all the liberal nancy-boys” attitude or I am just as in shock as you are? What year are we in?
How far can these violent people go?
To resurrect and reconfigure one of my favorite Vietnam-era slogans — Kill ‘em all. Let Allah sort ‘em out.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:35 amFirst, this SOB probably never served in the military, let alone Viet Nam.
Secondly, the Vietnamese were not Muslim & did not worship Allah.
So, what’s the truth?
More Neocon cheerleading & hand rubbing at the thought of more death.
I guess someone who planned the faux tribute to DeLay has credibility?
Spectator’s guide to WWIII, indeed. These pukes are not only scary,
they aren’t American. We should take this guy, Scooter, Shooter and Pigboy
to Lebanon, put them in Israeli line of fire. UN volunteers could clean up
the piles they leave after they have the living shit scared out of them.
Nobody who hasn’t been in combat has a clue of what it’s like.
NOBODY.
The Great American Bobo did not pass away with the death of William Jennings Bryan.
America’s deep reserves or racism, bloodlust and fear-of-the-Other are never exhausted.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:35 amThe 2 parties in the legislature should be renamed Irgun and Stern. The Secret States of America are part of the World Zionist Organization now. American leadership pimp for the war pigs in the pentagon along with their sycophants accross the nation in every nook and cranny, from homes, schools and institutions of propaganda. Our military fascist cololonial empire must be upheld at all cost!
July 26th, 2006 at 10:38 amThose comments sound like the ones told to Americans who wanted to kill all the slaves because the slaves wanted freedom. I guess America hasn’t really changed that much or some just think the same way.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:39 amI got it! These people are getting their foreign policy ideas off the backs of leather jackets from hells angels motorcycle gang members!
July 26th, 2006 at 10:43 amIt’s telling that they said: “Beirut was once…the most advanced and prosperous country in the Arab world.” Someone should tell them that is a city within Lebanon, not a country.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:43 amIf they realy want to bring true peace to the middle east, we should just make it a glass factory!
July 26th, 2006 at 10:45 amWell - I am sure the people that push these sorts of policies will gladly send their kids to fight first - or not….
July 26th, 2006 at 10:45 amThose comments sound like the ones told to Americans who wanted to kill all the slaves because the slaves wanted freedom. I guess America hasn’t really changed that much or some just think the same way.
Comment by Jackie — July 26, 2006 @ 10:39 am
It seems to me that roughly 30% of any given populace are nascent facists. The trick is to identify the party that is heading in that direction and avoid it like the plauge the prevent such lunatics from getting a solid handle on the levers of power.
The Democrats, as much as they suck too …. at least are unlikely to sleepwalk into totalitarianisim … the republicans are already there.
What is so bad about health care, the minimum wage and sensible energy policies? What is wrong with America? This is not a rethorical question, I’m at a loss …..
July 26th, 2006 at 10:45 amWhen we negotiate, we lose.
Ya having had bosses that think like this (I quickly moved on because I refuse to even pretend I am a serf just because I am getting a paycheck) I can say that this attitude creates people that hate you … and sometimes they get their job done also.
Having managed people myself I can also say that the approach I use (humility, here is my idea but I will use yours if it is better, give me your ideas also because no one is a god) makes the people I work with feel like they are treated as equals and so try harder to succeed WITH ME and no body ends up hating me and subverting my mission out of spite.
July 26th, 2006 at 10:49 amGreat thing about “grasstops” is that you cut ‘em off weekly — unlike the grass roots that represent the best of progressive America. My Viet Nam vet dad, who generally leans to the right, is even disgusted by these nutjobs — including King Nutjob his own self who’s infesting the White House right now (and the Swifties of last fall too…).
It’s all about the arrogance of power with these guys. They’re in power, they’re gonna do and say whatever they want, and every wingnut who thinks he/she has something to add crawls out from under a rock to try to jump on the arrogance bandwagon. And RDL is right — a lot of this arrogance seems to proceed from the deep-seated racism and xenophobia that’s long been a hallmark of the right wing.
In the end, though, truth and justice always prevails — some days that’s the only way I can even listen to the news; sorta like telling yourself “it’s only a movie…”
July 26th, 2006 at 10:49 amThe “kill ‘em all” eliminationist rhetoric has escalated & the racial hostility that fuels it is bubbling over. Just check out some of the recent comments from Savage compiled by Media Matters. When the warmongering right scream “liberal traitor,” I’m increasingly hearing “race traitor.”
July 26th, 2006 at 10:50 amThese guys wrote about why we don’t like war. They are jerks rightwing jerks. Give them your a peice of your mind.
More Questions for the Liberals
July 26th, 2006 at 10:52 amTo paraphrase JRR Tolkien: “In the language of the neo-cons help means ruin, and saving means slaying, that is plain.â€
July 26th, 2006 at 10:53 amAnd US is a I world country?
July 26th, 2006 at 10:55 am22 temperance
July 26th, 2006 at 10:56 amSorry, I can’t check out any comments from Savage. I’ve heard enough of his arrogant, hate-filled stuff to last a lifetime. I’d rather listen to Limbaugh and O’Reilly simultaneously for several hours at a stretch than torture myself with Savage.
We have our own alQaeda right here in the good ol’ USofA.
July 26th, 2006 at 11:01 amThey react, they don’t think. They incite violence and they inflame bigotry.
and they have talk shows!
July 26th, 2006 at 11:13 amJesus embraces mass genocide
July 26th, 2006 at 11:23 am#16, #28, you may want to actually read the story before making stupid posts. You may also want to learn what a … means.
Believe it or not, Beirut was once called the Paris of the Middle East (all the elegance, none of the French). Lebanon was the most advanced and prosperous country in the Arab world — because a majority of Lebanese were Christians
July 26th, 2006 at 11:25 am#31 And the email goes on to say how Palastinians moved in and ruined the neighborhood. Why do you think they moved in? Probably because they were evicted from their former residence?
July 26th, 2006 at 11:30 am#32, I’m in no way defending the people who wrote this garbage…just pointing out that people need to actually read the article rather than make comments about edited snippets from it in an effort to belittle it. Mindless drones, regardless of political affiliation.
July 26th, 2006 at 11:39 am#33 I totally agree. I read the email and there is a lot of venom spewed throughout. The snippets of ignorance doesn’t do it justice. There are conflicting stories on how this latest round started. Whether Hezbolah crossed the border or if the Israelis did has not been openly discussed to the level it deserves.
July 26th, 2006 at 11:43 amThe far-right Bush lovers want to kill everybody, but most of them are big fat slobs sitting in Lazy Boy recliner chairs drinking Budweiser beers and watching FOX News bullcrap!
July 26th, 2006 at 11:47 amYou know what happens to Grass “Tops” (instead of Grass Roots) don’t you?
They get mowed down and tosssed in the mulcher. (chuckle)
The “baby” at the end of “massive deployment” shows the maturity level we’re dealing with here.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:01 pm#7
“GrasstopsUSA is no fringe group.”
TP is in the same category…opposite side of course.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:01 pmI am so sick and tired of all that is conservative - these people are traitors to the human race. If there is a God or Goddess, may they all experience his/her WRATH!
Applauding While Lebanon Burns
By Norman Solomon
t r u t h o u t | Perspective
Wednesday 26 July 2006
Syndicated columnist Richard Cohen declared in the Washington Post on Tuesday that an-eye-for-an-eye would be a hopelessly wimpy policy for the Israeli government.
“Anyone who knows anything about the Middle East knows that proportionality is madness,” he wrote. “For Israel, a small country within reach, as we are finding out, of a missile launched from any enemy’s back yard, proportionality is not only inapplicable, it is suicide. The last thing it needs is a war of attrition. It is not good enough to take out this or that missile battery. It is necessary to reestablish deterrence: You slap me, I will punch out your lights.”
Cohen likes to sit in front of a computer and use flip phrases like “punch out your lights” as euphemisms for burning human flesh and bones with high-tech weapons, courtesy of American taxpayers.
In mid-November 1998, when President Clinton canceled plans for air attacks on Iraq after Saddam Hussein promised full cooperation with UN weapons inspectors, Cohen wrote: “Something is out of balance here. The Clinton administration waited too long to act. It needed to punch out Iraq’s lights, and it did not do so.”
The resort to euphemism tells us a lot. So does Cohen’s track record of sweeping statements on behalf of his zeal for military actions funded by the US Treasury.
On February 6, 2003, the Washington Post published Richard Cohen’s judgment the morning after Colin Powell made his televised presentation to the UN Security Council. “The evidence he presented to the United Nations - some of it circumstantial, some of it absolutely bone-chilling in its detail - had to prove to anyone that Iraq not only hasn’t accounted for its weapons of mass destruction but without a doubt still retains them,” Cohen wrote. “Only a fool - or possibly a Frenchman - could conclude otherwise.”
Cohen’s moral certainties are on a par with his technical ones. While he condemns rockets fired into Israel, he expresses pleasure about missiles fired by the Israeli government. That the death toll of civilians is far higher from Israel’s weaponry does not appear to bother him. On the contrary, he seems glad about the killing spree by the Israeli military.
In a column with bigoted overtones (”Israel is, as I have often said, unfortunately located, gentrifying a pretty bad neighborhood”), Cohen’s eagerness to support additional large-scale bombing by Israel is thematic. Consider this passage: “Hezbollah, with the aid of Iran and Syria, has shown that it is no longer necessary to send a dazed suicide bomber over the border - all that is needed is the requisite amount of thrust and a warhead. That being the case, it’s either stupid or mean for anyone to call for proportionality. The only way to ensure that babies don’t die in their cribs and old people in the streets is to make the Lebanese or the Palestinians understand that if they, no matter how reluctantly, host those rockets, they will pay a very, very steep price.”
Such phrasing is classic evasion by keyboard cheerleaders for war: “The” Lebanese. “The” Palestinians. “They will pay a very, very steep price.” Meanwhile, in the real world, the vast majority of the victims of the Israeli onslaught are civilians being subjected to collective punishment.
Cohen - like so many others in the American punditocracy - depicts the death of an Israeli civilian as far more tragic and important than the death of an Arab civilian.
There’s something really sick about such righteous support for civilian death and destruction.
Osama bin Laden, meet Richard Cohen.
Richard, meet Osama.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:02 pmIn mid-November 1998, when President Clinton canceled plans for air attacks on Iraq after Saddam Hussein promised full cooperation with UN weapons inspectors, Cohen wrote: “Something is out of balance here. The Clinton administration waited too long to act. It needed to punch out Iraq’s lights, and it did not do so.â€
And in remembering the Bay of Pigs - there is one thing I have learned conservatives hate is DIPLOMACY. You know, the disaster of a nuclear hell that Kennedy kept from happening diplomatically. They are still pissed off we didn’t launch our nuclear missiles at Cuba.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:05 pmconservativism = DEATH AND DESTRUCTION
July 26th, 2006 at 12:08 pmThese guys wrote about why we don’t like war. They are jerks rightwing jerks. Give them your a peice of your mind.
More Questions for the Liberals
Comment by CarolMonster — July 26, 2006 @ 10:52 am
I spent about 30 seconds on that page. Carol those kind of people are not amenable to dialouge. It’s simply a waste of your time. Best to concentrate on moderate republicans, such as they are. The guys hosting that site are simply looking for a fight, not insights. Basically life is too short for talking to those kind of wackos.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:08 pmThe solution of course guys to all of this horror is simple. Criminalise war. If US does it, and sticks be the agreed rules … everyone will follow.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:10 pmIsrael Does The Right Thing. Welcome To World War IV
“Every country in the United Nations looks out for their interest. But only the United States is criticized for it.â€
John Bolton—U.S. United Nations Ambassador. Foxnews- Hannity and Colmes July 19, 2006
If I was Ambassador Bolton I would also add Israel to the quote above.
I have held off commenting on the Israeli attacks on terrorists in Lebanon until I saw where they went. I was afraid that they would back off under gutless international pressure.
I am relieved they have not.
This action, taking out the Iranian-backed Hezbollah one bomb at a time, is the right thing to do.
If we had, in the USA, another country lobbing bombs into our States, and kidnapping and murdering our soldiers, we would react the same. Israel is surrounded by terrorist supporting nations and they have the right to defend themselves.
The outrageous calling for Israel to stop defending themselves by European and Mid-eastern countries that support terrorism is disgusting.
This is a refreshing attack by Israel on a new front in the War On Terror by a United States ally, and we should all welcome it, not attack it.
This is the perfect next stage in the defeat of terrorism and rouge nation-states like Hezbollah and Hamas.
Today Israel took out a bunker 100 feet under ground that was a Hezzbola headquarters. Hezbollah actually sent out a press release saying that the bunker, under ground, was a mosque! We are suppose to feel sorry for these killers and terrorists according to our buddies in France and Russia.
I find it interesting that the liberal blogs, editorial pages and politicians are scarily silent on this entire issue. They can’t even spin this one their way, besides the hapless attempt to say that the delay in getting U.S. citizens out of Lebanon is the same as Katrina.
The common refrain I see on the left now is that the United States PLANNED all this for the November elections. Yet another instance of Bush Derangement Syndrome.
The liberals are so inept and running scared today that they are left with tired and useless comparisons and conspiracy theories.
Meanwhile, President Bush’s poll numbers are rising to 45%. (http://www.rasmussenreports.com/Bush_Job_Approval.htm )
This IS world war IV, the Cold War being World War III. I have said this many times before and have gotten much abuse from liberals for saying this. But reality cares not for lunacy. This IS a World War.
(http://matwellworld.blogspot.com/2005/11/france-is-burning-australia-confronts.html )
Until the United States and the freedom loving countries of the world treat this like a World War and take out the regimes in Iran, Syria and North Korea we will never have peace.
I used to complain about the billions of dollars we send Israel, just like the libs are doing today, but no more. They have earned their money by their defense of Democracy and freedom in this military action.
In Matworld we support Israel for joining us in the defeat of radical Islam and terrorism.
We also stop the illogical and emotional belief in “Peace†protests, attacks on Israel, calls for a “cease fire†and business as usual in the region.
Everytime in the past 10 years that Israel has given up land and agreed to more and more peace agreements, the terrorists have ignored them and escalated the terror. They have had enough and so have I.
This is the battle of our times.
We are either going to act like Winston Churchill and see the danger, or ignore history and be Neville Chamberlain and believe a modern day Hitler regime when they say that they are right in attacking Israel and western civilization for fanatical beliefs.
This is not a time to be weak nor idealogically blinded by “peace” talk.
Our future depends on this War On Terror being successful.
Time for everyone to wake up.
MTI
Cepan@aol.com
July 26th, 2006 at 12:13 pm10 - Marley - did you leave him a little love note as he asked in his blog? I did. I’m sure he’ll appreciate my views too.
I don’t buy that Lebanon was ever primarily Christian, except maybe befor Mohammed’s birth. They always shared power “equally” there.
37 - so why are you slumming here then traci? Your boyfriend told you no again this morning?
The right is becoming the Nazi Party of Germany. But they’ve got their collective heads stuffed so far up their asses that they refuse to see what they’re doing to themselves and the US as a country. God help us from the morons in our midst.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:13 pmNovemberelection > go to Israel TODAY to fight with them against Hezbollah , or shut your fascist coward mouth > PERIOD>
July 26th, 2006 at 12:19 pmZzzzz… huh? what? oh you’re finally done mimicking Rush Limbaugh talking points.
Translation: YOU WILL BE FREE EVEN IF I HAVE TO KILL YOU TO DO IT!
July 26th, 2006 at 12:21 pmOur future depends on this War On Terror being successful.
what is with these people and their downright ARROGANCE? What the hell makes americans THINK they are somehow superior to the rest of the world? Where the HELL does that come from? Do you realize, conservatives have this knack for creating cute little slogans - like War on Terror, War on Drugs, etc….I’ll say it again, peace, morality, decency, honorability, honesty, diplomacy, all of these are simply LOST on these putrid people.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:24 pmTypical loon responses to a THINKING argument.
Name calling and illogical statements.
Note to Libs— you are losing this issue minute by minute. your Democrat reps are now on TV showing how they are INSANE on the War On TERROR issue and STILL don;t get this is a World War.
PLEASE keep this up until November!!!
July 26th, 2006 at 12:26 pmA. Why did he have to sully the name of Sean Connery by including an out-of-context movie quote?
B. “Due to their breeding habits, Muslims are now a majority.” In addition to being outright ugly, this is incorrect. Right now, the Lebanese population outlay is somewhere around 23% Shiite, 23% Sunni and 41% Christian.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:27 pmYou want to negotiate with people who plant ball barings in thier missles? These great humanitarians want peace? They are aiming at that great military installation called Haifa, right?! They are hitting those israeli tanks with such precision….
If i was israel i’d bring a gun to knife fight too…
July 26th, 2006 at 12:34 pmAnd if Israel wanted to kill civilians… they have alot more toys they can play with then what they are working with now.
from #43″…Until the United States and the freedom loving countries of the world treat this like a World War and take out the regimes in Iran, Syria and North Korea we will never have peace…”
Hard to argue with that logic. We took out the regime in Afghanistan and *presto* peace. Look how peaceful Iraq has been since we took out the regime there. If there’s anything we’ve learned in the last 5 years, it’s that the surest way to peace is through taking out regimes.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:34 pm#48 madashell
I’ll say it again, peace, morality, decency, honorability, honesty, diplomacy, all of these are simply LOST on these putrid people.
In all serious … i want to engage without name calling or anything,,, straight up… tell me the progressive solution for
July 26th, 2006 at 12:38 pmpeace
morality
decency
honorability
honesty
diplomacy
Novemberelection-
July 26th, 2006 at 12:46 pmWhile I do appreciate the time and effort you took to post that extraordinarily long rant, you are again jumping to a conclusion that too many Republicans (and sadly, Democrats) jump to.
Terrorism is bred by hatred towards another country, or movement, or people, or religion. As such, what happens to the public of, lets say, Lebanon, will influence how powerful a terrorist group, say, Hezbollah, will grow. The Lebanese look to Hezbollah as “freedom fighters” and defenders against invasion.
Terrorism cannot be stopped simply by putting soldiers on the ground and bombing every supposed “terrorist hideout” we can find. Oftentimes, they are connected to the public. Every attack against them is also against the people who they live near. They get angry. Terrorism only grows.
Consider: when Israel was invading Lebanon in 1982, they were mainly fighting Fatah. Hezbollah hardly even existed. When they left (I can’t remember the exact date), Hezbollah was the new strong terrorist group.
Wiping out terrorism will take generations, and it isn’t simple as sending the military to every terrorist hideout.
While I do not support the actions of Hezbollah in any way, I do not agree with Israel’s invasion, nor do I blame the Lebanese for turning to Hezbollah for some form of comfort.
People’s hearts and minds won’t be won over with bullets and bombs.
The right wing can have WWIII or IV or whatever you want to call it. These guys WANT there to be a war on, not because they want peace, but because it makes their lives more exciting. See, having a war is the coolest thing there is because it liberates you from being civilized. Hate rules? Just say “There’s a war on” and all the rules dissappear.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:46 pmThe idiotic thing is that they think that once the war starts, they can finish it. This is the same for both Islamic and western conservatives. They can get their jollies by acting like they’re in a war, but they can start the apocalypse without me.
#47…
Because the United States IS the greatest country in the world, and in the history of man.
The hatred for this country, the freedom and belief in it that works in every country it is tried, and the fact that we are the lone Superpower is what is killing the Democrat party.
You scoff at us and the red State people who love this country. We let you rant and rave and just vote you out each election.
Someday you will understand.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:47 pmI am not one to quarrel with you military geniuses but when would you ever fight a war/conflict “proportionally†when you want to win? I don’t think Israel is fighting to return to the status quo, (Armed thugs at the border) they want security which would involve eliminating Hizbullah.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:49 pmIn the history of man? We’re what, 200 and a few years old?
Ever heard of Rome?
July 26th, 2006 at 12:52 pmTo answer arguments about the greatest country in history is rather pointless.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:57 pmWhat exactly makes a country great?
If it is about Democratic values, look no further than Athens in the Golden Age, who had an almost pure form of Democracy.
Rome, despite its “greatness” (here meaning size of the empire and how advanced they were), was an imperialistic bloodthirsty nation that thought nothing of the tribes of the north that they took the land from.
And America is blood-free either, Novemberelection. I love this country, but I’m upset with what we have done in our past. I.e.: the Indians (my people), The slaves, the Mexican War, practically every war we’ve fought except for WWII, The Gilded Age, the Red Scares, and now this current culture of corruption.
If you love our country, you would actively work to make it better.
The key to peace, morality, decency, honorability, honesty, diplomacy is to stop pretending your life is worth more than somebody else’s. And you can stop pretending that everybody but you is stupid, fatalistic and irrational. And you can stop pretending that if you make somebody angry enough, they’ll agree with you and stop what they’re doing. Being number one in your own book doesn’t make you number one in somebody else’s. You think you’ve got good reasons to believe that all of them terrorists, remember that they think they’ve got good reasons to think you’re a criminal. Hezbollah haven’t figured any of these things out and neither have the spoilers for WW whatever.
July 26th, 2006 at 12:58 pmthe blood thirsty attidude of the right wing, plays well with the diminishing base. However, the increased reliance on fear and terror, will ultimetly be thier undoing. The inablity to stabilize the middle east, and lower energy prices will be reflected by voters in the fall. You can pander to the base using abortion, flag burning, gay marriage, and stem cell research all you want. It is a losing war.
undecided and moderate voters are unhappy, and that will spell doom to the repblican majority. The price for failing the American people is high, and the republicans will pay for their failure.
July 26th, 2006 at 1:00 pm#51 - Vietnam and Korea worked really well too, didn’t they?
I don’t see why the blood-thirsty trolls don’t see history repeating itself.
No major regime change sponsored by the USA has worked, except our own revolutionary war. And why did that work? Because we were fighting for ourselves in a cause we believe in. It wasn’t like France invaded, fought the British and told us that we need to set up a government in their image. That wouldn’t have worked out so well.
Nation building is a HUGE commitment and so far it’s pretty much only been done by the USA for political gains or to fight a broader loosely defined “war” on something (cold war, war on terror) based on fear and prejudice. As a result, it’s half-assed and fails. I’m not advocating going in and “nuking” the place and pounding it hard for it to succeed. Rome basically did that. Wipe out a country and give them no choice but to integrate. That’s a just immoral on so many levels. I’m a pacifist and believe war is never the answer. Trolls: Flame me if you like for that — I really don’t care.
We have to recognize that when we are fighting the citizens themselves to rebuild their nation in our image (which we are doing in Iraq), it’s basically doomed to fail in the “six month” timespan originally thought. It will take decades and TONS of cash. It just doesn’t work out like in the movies. You don’t overthrow a dictator to a cheering crowd. There will be decent and resentment. People tend not to respond too well to “we don’t like your way of life, you need to live by ours instead! KABOOM”
July 26th, 2006 at 1:00 pmBecause the United States IS the greatest country in the world, and in the history of man.
Comment by Novemberelection — July 26, 2006 @ 12:47 pm
Ha ha ha!!! This guy is really stupid…History of man! Ha ha ha
July 26th, 2006 at 1:05 pmTake your banjo out and sing:
Glory, glory, Aleluya…the white man marches on.
#54
are you implying that Hezbollah has the support of the lebenese government? yeah, at gun point…
they don’t want hezbollah there.. they are like the drunk alcoholic brother in-law you don’t want to invite over for thanksgiving but you have to….
(i only wish it was that simple)
you act like hezbollah was provoked.
i agree military isn’t the only answer… it takes unity of thought and opinion and education from outside forces… ehmm… UN!? EU?! but unfortunatly these people own their press… own their their governments by gun point… and indoctorinenate their youth.. hmm like Nazi’s… they run the propaganda…and we play up to it… Koran down the toilet, cartoons with mohamed (sp), van gogh being killed, solomn rashdi with a contract on his head,
July 26th, 2006 at 1:06 pmKill ‘em all. Let Allah sort ‘em out.
….and how is this any different from the Muslim fanatics who want to kill all of the infidels ? While Muslims are abhored for having this attitude if a Christian or a Jew says it then it is OK…..bunch of hypocrits.
Not making any statements for either side..just trying to point out the obvious flaw in the logic.
July 26th, 2006 at 1:08 pm#64
July 26th, 2006 at 1:08 pmMaybe not the government, but it certainly has the support of the people.
Again, I don’t support Hezbollah in the slightest. I just don’t blame the people for going to them for comfort
When Hezbollah can provide a more supportive government then the Lebonese government, you will have problems. This is a problem on so many levels, not a simple issue. One thing I am unsure of, is why the lebonese government, and the Isreali’s work together to eliminate Hezbollah?
anyone have an answer to this question?
July 26th, 2006 at 1:12 pm68
yes… a UN resolution about 3 or four years ago that was supposed to be inmposed by the lebonese on hezbollah… but they didn’t… why? cause they are scared for their lives… because Hezbollah is an armed political party of their parliament…
and do you think the christians and jews and drews in Lebenon want hezbollah there threatening their lives?
July 26th, 2006 at 1:20 pmthrow a hand grenade into the capitol building when congess is in session, kill ‘em all, let (?) sort them out.
? = insert your own deity
July 26th, 2006 at 1:21 pm#51 and #52 Jonser, I’d be happy to engage without name calling.
The list the other poster cited is long, but it all boils down to one thing : Rule of Law. The issue is that we have no law, or at best crude instruments to arbitrate between nation states.
Nonetheless, the UN, hopelessly hamstrung with genetic deficencies that guarantee failure, has still fullfilled its primary goal, to prevent a WWII class conflict.
However, we have had a relentless string of small to medium conflicts since the end of WWII, and any of these could spiral out of control. Plus the logic of war means the enemy is treated as an insect to be exterminated, and your side is be spared at all costs. Hence the disgraceful slogan “fight them there so we don’t have to fight them here”.
The root of the issue is that we have 200 armed gangs on the planet. With a varying level of strength supported and activley encouraged by a wide spectrum of regimes. What can you expect but conflict? The situation is lunacy.
There are a range of options to address this, three of the best starting points would be to :
1) Criminalise war.
2) Democratise the UN.
3) Never allow an injured party to do the fighting with a terrorist party.
Comments?
July 26th, 2006 at 1:31 pmPretty good. Also pretty hard to implement.
July 26th, 2006 at 1:33 pmBut we do need change now. We have to grow beyond standards that have been set in our minds. Radical change is needed. On every front.
Something is up with your vocab. Seems your most used frase is such and such “… is stupid”
Here’s some other quotes of yours:
“Ha ha ha!!! This guy is really stupid…History of man! Ha ha ha
Take your banjo out and sing:
Glory, glory, Aleluya…the white man marches on.”
And the best one is:
“#237 CAPTION CONTEST!!!
I just feel like jerking off right now.”
This is not a personal attack, I’m just struggling to find a proper language to communicate with Juan C because I AM truly, sincerely making an effort to understand what is he saying.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:03 pmOoooops, #72 is addressed to Juan C
July 26th, 2006 at 2:04 pm#72 He’s saying YOU’RE AN IDIOT, O.J.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:09 pmBrian Coughlan
The list the other poster cited is long, but … etc.
Yes. The “Rule of Law”. Thank You very much. Quite agree.
Then there should be a Law Enforcement. Otherwise the law becomes a joke. Like the UN resolution passed more then 2 years ago to disarm Hazy-Balluh is a joke. Because Coffee is a joke and the UN is a joke.
My point: For every Law has to be a Law Enforcement.
For USA it is premature to enter any kind of agreement of that nature on a Global scale.
Can you imagine how many “hystericals†are going to show up here to scream that USA wants to be a World’s policeman?
In either case, Israel right now in Lebanon does the job that UN said will but failed to do.
By the way, I do not remember UN doing any good. Anybody, please remind me.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:17 pmOne Jew
I dont remember Israel being any good since it was forced upon the community of nations by the ruthless and colonial Brits and now facilitated by the compliant U.S. The UN has a problem with a bully child that should never have been born in the first place.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:24 pmDI OPRESSO LIBER
July 26th, 2006 at 2:27 pm#66
Why would the people in Lebanon go to Hezbollah for comfort?
July 26th, 2006 at 2:28 pmJoneser- Yes I am sure the people of Lebanon would prefer Israel be the one to “threaten their lives” to Hezbollah. That would be much better. Like there is a ‘choice’ for who will kill you. Do you think the citizens of Lebanon feel that Israel has the ‘right’ to kill anyone in the entire country, due to the actions of a few, that they could not control? Do the people of Israel feel that way about Hezbollah?
July 26th, 2006 at 2:31 pmBy the way, I do not remember UN doing any good. Anybody, please remind me.
Comment by One Jew — July 26, 2006 @ 2:17 pm
Have you recently been incinerated by one of the tens of thousands of nuclear weapons stockpiled by homicidal nation states? No? There you are then.
The UN is engaged in critical life saving work where it has been given a mandate by the nation states that comprise it. As you know, the UN’s military mandates come through the security council. As you are certainly aware, the security council has 5 permanent members with vetoes. This is where you should table your frustration. The concept of rule of law, and limited global governance to prevent war is not the problem. The current structure is, most especially the veto wielded by the 5 permanent members.
Imagine how much legislation would pass the senate if California, Alabama and Hawaii had absolute vetoes and nothing could overturn them? Not much. That’s your problem right there.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:35 pmjason baddo
“I dont remember Israel being … “
That’s because you have been hybernating for 60 years.
Wake up. The year is 2006.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:37 pm#75 By the way, I do not remember UN doing any good. Anybody, please remind me.
Comment by One Jew — July 26, 2006 @ 2:17 pm
Maybe because Israel’s government doesn’t follows the UN resolutions that concerns them.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:40 pm“Those who attack Egypt will never leave Egypt alive. We shall fight a regular war, a total war, a guerrilla war. Those who attack Egypt will soon realize they brought disaster upon themselves. He who attacks Egypt attacks the whole Arab world. They say in their papers the whole thing will be over in forty-eight hours. They do not know how strong we really are.”
Nasser 1956
kind of eerie isnt it?
July 26th, 2006 at 2:43 pm#83 jason baddo
“I dont remember Israel being … “
That’s because you have been hybernating for 60 years.
Wake up. The year is 2006.
Comment by One Jew — July 26, 2006 @ 2:37 pm
I feaar that the ones living in the past are the zionists…
July 26th, 2006 at 2:44 pmBrian Coughlan
“Have you recently been incinerated … and etc”
Thx, nice touch.
“… you should table your frustration.”
I have none, do you?
” most especially the veto wielded by the 5 permanent members “
Quite right again. This status quo needs a change.
” That’s your problem right there “
I have none. To the point – you right again. USA has a Constitution. UN has some sort of paper instead. I do not want any World Constitution because one would be premature. Do YOU?
July 26th, 2006 at 2:46 pmEvil Spaniard
“Maybe because Israel’s government doesn’t follows the UN resolutions that concerns them.”
Sorry, pal, no can do. I’m not here to repeat myself.
Pls, go back and read my comment again. thx.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:48 pmmoonbat patrol,
July 26th, 2006 at 2:49 pmWhat’s with the Special Forces slogan? Is it supposed to mean something?
Evil Spaniard
“I feaar that the ones living in the past are the zionists…”
Are you Zionist?
July 26th, 2006 at 2:50 pm#86 Bluedog, I agree with you.
I don’t think that palestinians are sweet sheeps of God either. But now, the ones with the biggest army and the ones breaking (in a greater quantity) again and again the truces, borders, UN resolutions, and the ones with a greater army and illegal nuclear weapons programs are the Israelites.
Don’t get me wrong, I don’t hate jews either. I have jew friends (a real difficult thing in Spain, because here exist too few), and even a friend who converted to judaism and moved to Israel, for the sake of love. And another friend girl who now lives in Palestine, with his boyfriend. All in all, I want peace for everybody, and no vengeances or retaliation.
And normally, I put myself in the side of the weaker, and the civilians. In the world war, I guess that I would have been in the side of the jews in Europe or the Republicans in Spanish Civil War. But this time aren’t the jews the weak ones.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:51 pmSorry, the lunch is over. till tonight.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:53 pm#87 I fear that the ones living in the past are the zionists
wrong dude. the zionists control our past, present & future. no arena for constructive debate regarding israel as long the likes of AIPAC and ZOA have us by the nuts through control (ahem) elected representatives.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:53 pm#92 Spaniard, you’re just an anti-semite, whether or not you know it.
Comment by Bluedog49 — July 26, 2006 @ 2:50 pm
Sorry, but I don’t agree. First, because Palestinians are also semites. And second, because I only want peace.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:54 pmPeople treat the UN like it’s a state. We complain that it can’t take decisive action the way a state would, but it has to be remembered that the UN isn’t a country with it’s own population to draw people from and operate it. There are no native UN-ers. The UN is an organization of a whole bunch of countries and as such it CAN’T have the powers of a state.
July 26th, 2006 at 2:55 pmThe reason the UN is weak is because the countries who participate in it WANT it that way. People can complain that the UN has too little power, but no country, not least the countries on the Security Council, are willing to give it more. It’s also important to remember that if, by some miracle, the UN was given the power and authority it needed to play a more muscular role, many of the same people who now complain about its weakness would be the ones who squawk. It’s no-win for the UN.
A UN which is all but toothless suits most big countries just fine.
#97 Spaniard, sorry about the anti-Semite thing. That was out of line. I do have to point out, however, that one reason there might not be many Jews in Spain is that they were all kicked out or tortured to death by christians.
Comment by Bluedog49 — July 26, 2006 @ 2:54 pm
See? This was done five hundreds years ago, by and to people died five hundred years ago. My ancestors kicked out also the muslims who invaded us a thousand and half years ago. Why what happened five hundred years ago must rule what we do today? That’s crippling the peace all over the world.
Then, five hundred years from now it would be legal or justified for a muslim to kill jews based in what is happening today? I think not. Dragging hate and vengeance for hundreds of years is pointless.
July 26th, 2006 at 3:00 pmComment by Bluedog49 — July 26, 2006 @ 2:50 pm
Sorry, but I don’t agree. First, because Palestinians are also semites. And second, because I only want peace.
Comment by Evil Spaniard — July 26, 2006 @ 2:54 pm
I have to reinforce this. Disagreeing with a jewish person does not make one an anti-semite. Wishing to kill them all, or whipping up others to kill them all … now that qualifies.
For the record, I do find Israel an objectionable rogue state. That does not make me an anti-semite either. I also find North Korea objectionable and Zimbabwe. You hear the same nonsense from Mugabe, but Israelis really have taken the art of victimhood to a staggering new level. What is truly sickening is that with their history, you’d expect them to know better than to kick the shit out of the weaker just because you can.
July 26th, 2006 at 3:00 pmIt’s no-win for the UN.
A UN which is all but toothless suits most big countries just fine.
Comment by David Carlisle — July 26, 2006 @ 2:55 pm
Bang on the money.
Why doesn’t it get better? Because the biggest warlords on planet Somalia won’t let it get better, because to do so, to really engage would reduce their room for manouver.
July 26th, 2006 at 3:03 pmConservatives are animals who sold the remains of their soul to the devil.
July 26th, 2006 at 3:06 pmKill ‘em all, let them go to Hell.
I can recall a time, not that long ago, when the Republicans had a far different opinion of the U.N. How many times did the ‘Righties’ cite “U.N. Resolution 1441″, as the ’star witness’ for invading Iraq. If they said it once, they said it a million times. “Saddam is in clear violation…” blah, blah, blah. But less than 4 years later, they are irrelevant. Funny how that goes… But I predict that the U.N. will survive BushCo, not that it will be easy to do, but the other members of the U.N. outnumber BushCo.
July 26th, 2006 at 3:07 pmYeah, and once Himmler and the Nazi parties were non-fringe groups in Germany, likewise Stalin and the real Communists. And you note civilized people have tossed them into the dung heap pile of historical figures. These Americans fascist criminals will get the same treatment, but as Germany and the USSR, it will take time. Who would ever believe in a free democratic Poland or the Balkan states? The unfortunate part is that we will have to say the same thing about the USA in 2-3 generations.
July 26th, 2006 at 4:11 pm#71…. Brian Coughlin
you said… Plus the logic of war means the enemy is treated as an insect to be exterminated, and your side is be spared at all costs. Hence the disgraceful slogan “fight them there so we don’t have to fight them hereâ€.
if their is no alternative… ie the other won’t cease… yes ultimatle there will be an extermination of one side or the other unless one or both are willing to conceded…
simply put.. what would happen to israel if they stopped? what would happen to the palestinians or hezbollah if they simply stopped…. and for that matter who would you buy realestate with after one or the other “stopped”
Criminalize War…
Although i would like the definition of that, I will take it at face value…
I am assuming that you believe this is something that would create peace… I also assume that you believe that “good” people shouldn’t kill and “bad” people are.
And how do you enforce war being illegal? Sanctions? Do you think War being illegal would effect Rhwanda via sanctions? After all they have the weapons and power for genocide…because they deem them insects… do you think that if they sat and their homes and did nothing that it would stop? no, they already are doing that and they are being killed… because it is evil.. which cannot be talked to death or payed enough… or placated…you can’t leave it to law enforcement….
China annexed Tibet without war or influence from others… I am I to say Tibet is at peace?
Iraqi people had peace with Saddam? Iranian people have peace?
Why does South Korea have peace with North Korea?
China have Peace with Taiwan?
Democratize the UN… how do you go out abou tthat with countries who don’t believe in the democratic system? or believe in the same system of laws?
Never allow an injured party fight with a terrorist party…
please explain
July 26th, 2006 at 4:13 pm81
that is the assumption you are saying that israel wants to kill innocent people correct?
Hezbollah cleary states they want the jews dead… and christians as well for that matter… ask any Arab Chirstian in this country why they immigrated…
94 spaniard… The Israeli’s are about preservation and the Palastenians are about israel’s irradicaiton
102 Coughlin,
how is Israel a rougue state? What is Isarael’s ultimate goal as a nation? What has israel done with a the arrid peace of land and it’s people and even muslims in their own borders compared to the oil rich Arab world?
105 Cyra
Ever read a JFK speech?
July 26th, 2006 at 4:30 pm#107-joneser- Don’t change the subject.
July 26th, 2006 at 4:50 pmGet A Clue!..Zionism is a cancer of the human race, and it must be eliminated!
July 26th, 2006 at 8:42 pmThey slaughtered thousands of people on 9/11. They caused permanent health problems to thousands of people who breathed the demolition debris.They fooled the Americans into sacrificing themselves as they slaughter Iraqis and Afghans.They fooled Americans into thinking the attack on the USS Liberty was an accident.They fooled Americans, Europeans, and others into slaughtering each other in two world wars.They fooled Americans into thinking a hurricane blew open three levees in New Orleans.They fooled Americans and Europeans into letting them have total control of their monetary system……http://www.iamthewitness.com/DarylBradfordSmith_Hufschmid12July2006.html
Beirut’s a country now, eh?
July 26th, 2006 at 10:21 pmsimply put.. what would happen to israel if they stopped?
Hizbollah would continue to launch rocket attacks on Isreal. Isreal would negotiate for the release of their soldiers, perhaps releasing some of the hundreds they have in jails. Isreal could implement all of the outstanding UN resolutions it is in violation of, get a sympathetic hearing vis a vis Hizbollah. Lebanon and Israel could agree a UN force to patrol the border and prevent Hizbollah attacks.
A this requires is a genuine will to compromise for progress to be made. Remember Northern Ireland.
And how do you enforce war being illegal? Sanctions? Do you think War being illegal would effect Rhwanda via sanctions?
No. Sanctions and all of the instruments that punish entire nation states have been shown repeatedly to be counter productive. This includes war. The leadership and facilitators must be targeted, authorised by a global decision making process, up to and including targeted assasination if there is no other way.
The key points are legitimacy, and rule of law. What the US is doing Iraq and what Isreal is doing in Lebanon is chaotic and killing thousands. We would not accept such lunacy within our nation states, and we should not accept it anywhere.
General war should only ever be used as a defensive measure, and then only when the decision has been taken by an authorised global body in a 2/3rds majority decision. War is criminalised, yet the military remains under the control of the individual nation states.
how do you go out abou tthat with countries who don’t believe in the democratic system?
As a start simply widening the security council, eliminating the vetoes and introducing weighted voting based on population would be a productive start. There are already efforts underway in this direction currently logjammed by the US.
More radically, directly elected representatives wouldn’t be bad, and given that 60% of humans already live in democratic regimes not as hard as you think to implement. China might be a problem, but why is this rather obvious step not even up for discussion?
Never allow an injured party fight with a terrorist party…
Have you noticed how without exception, developed criminal justice systems do not allow the injured party to sentence the guilty or carry out sentence on them? This is because the injured party has lost all perspective.
A direct threat to the civilian populace of a country should always be tackled by those with no emotional stake in the conflict. The world has enough armies and weapons to professionally tackle each of these hotspots using those with that bring no “baggage” to the fight.
July 27th, 2006 at 2:42 amBrian, I completely agree. At the same time, I believe a lot of the criticism of Israel stems from hatred of Jews. This is especially the case with the far right.
Comment by Bluedog49 — July 26, 2006 @ 6:49 pm
Absolutely true and it is reprehensible and should be resisted. This however is a left leaning site. I find it distasteful how readily some groups tag criticisim as anti-semitic. This is a crude and objectionable attempt to shut down discussion.
The current Israeli government are guilty of war crimes, they are criminals and should be arrested and tried. Likewise the leaders of Hizbollah are criminals and should be hunted down, tried and arrested.
The Lebanese and Israeli civilians caught in the middle are the real victims.
July 27th, 2006 at 4:30 amThose israeli soldiers were actually inside Lebanon when they were captured & not taken buy some tunnel diging terrorists as you claim(how dumb does that sound? they dug a tunnel? Youve been watching too many POW movies) they should kill you while we all watch.
July 27th, 2006 at 6:10 am#97 I do have to point out, however, that one reason there might not be many Jews in Spain is that they were all kicked out or tortured to death by christians.
Bluedog49
And a little historic reference about Spain. It’s true that many jews where expelled from Spain five hundred years ago (they are called the Sephardim, due to the name of Spain for them, Sepharad). As I think, they form an important part of the Israel’s population nowadays. BTW, our national public TV anchor in Jerusalem is a Sephardi himself.
Well, not all the jews died or where expelled. Many converted also to christianism, five hundred years ago and before, since the first centuries of the christian era, when they came in the apogee of the Roman Empire and the Roman Empire adopted christianism as its official religion. And formal last names, inherited consistently generation after generation wheren’t adopted until the late medieval era. Many people went along with a nick, or the father’s first name as a last name. And nowadays, no one can know who has jew ancestors here.
And, Spain has been a “melting pot” for much longer than the USA. Iberians, Celts, Phoenicians (who were semitic), Carthaginians, Greeks, Romans, Jews, a couple of north and center european tribes, pushed by the huns, Visigoths, Arabs, North-African peoples (the ones converted to Islam, and who came along with the arab islamic forces who invaded the Iberian Peninsula in the 7th century), Franks, and a couple others, only until the XV century.
So, probably, you and me are most closer relatives than you and your nordic or anglosaxon descendant neighbour.
July 27th, 2006 at 7:41 amEvil Spaniard
The #97 really got to you, didn’t it?
“And a little historic reference about Spain… etcâ€
Thx, it was an interesting perspective from someone with Spanish heritage.
Except,
You are spinning the issue. Just answer the question:
When was it the last time when the Synagogue in your neighborhood has been vandalized and YOU showed up to support freedom for Jews to exercise their choice of religion in your home country?
Speaking of Europe… Jeez.
July 27th, 2006 at 8:44 amaWhen was it the last time when the Synagogue in your neighborhood has been vandalized and YOU showed up to support freedom for Jews to exercise their choice of religion in your home country?
Speaking of Europe… Jeez.
Comment by One Jew — July 27, 2006 @ 8:44 am
The jews are well able to look after themselves, the have the global monopoly on victimhood and boy do they milk it for all it’s worth. It’s disgraceful and sickening that the tragedy of the holocaust has been twisted into a perverted shield to allow the Isrealies to embark on a little ethnic cleansing of their own.
Sixty years later, the holocaust has nothing to do with the state of Israel, or even the jewish people alive today. It is a universal symbol of the weak oppressing the strong. That put you on the wrong side of the equation.
Stop using that tragedy as an excuse for behaving like the very fascists you claim to despise.
July 27th, 2006 at 9:26 am#117 When was it the last time when the Synagogue in your neighborhood has been vandalized and YOU showed up to support freedom for Jews to exercise their choice of religion in your home country?
Speaking of Europe… Jeez.
Comment by One Jew — July 27, 2006 @ 8:44 am
Nowadays no sinagogues are vandalized as a matter of fact in my country. And trust me, I’m very aware of the national news every day, and would have noticed it. In fact, nowadays we live a strong thriving of diverse cultures, thanks to our democracy. From what country are you? From the USA? When was the last time the KKK or the NRA issued an anti-jew statement? Yesterday? Two days ago? The black Ethiopian jews from Africa or Falashas keep being second class citizens in Israel? Before calling me a racist for being against violence in the name of Israel, look in your own community.
July 27th, 2006 at 9:29 am#118 - “The jews are well able to look after themselves, the have the global monopoly on victimhood and boy do they milk it for all it’s worth. It’s disgraceful and sickening that the tragedy of the holocaust has been twisted into a perverted shield to allow the Isrealies to embark on a little ethnic cleansing of their own.” - comment by Brian Coughlan
******When foolish people say stupid things sometimes it’s compassionate to ignore them - in other instances, it’s a kindness to refute them. Let dissect your poorly crafted argument and help you find ways to improve your critical thinking skills.
Yes, Brian the Jews are able to look after themselves, thanks to LOTS of grit and generous supporters, chiefly the USA. A robust democracy, which allows ALL religions to worship… OR NOT. Christian churches, Muslim mosques and Jewish synagogues all occupy a respected place in Israeli society. (It’s a tad difficult to find a Bible in Muslim theocracies let alone a Torah - houses of worship, more difficult still.)
“International Religious Freedom Report
Released by the Bureau of Democracy, Human Rights, and Labor - October 2001
Saudi Arabia is an Islamic monarchy without legal protection for freedom of religion, and such protection does not exist in practice. Islam is the official religion, and all citizens are Muslims. Based on its interpretation of the hadith, or sayings of the Prophet Muhammad, the Government prohibits the public practice of non-Muslim religions.”
“A global monopoly on victimhood…ethnic cleansing of their own.” Jews were victimized for the “crime” of being a Jew. How sad for you that you are able to so cavalierly “gloss over” such a tragedy. But to accuse Jews of ethnic cleansing is so offensive it must be deemed myopia at best or ignorance at worst. I will pose two scenarios (I have done so before and progs are mute):
a.) IF Islamic radicals were disarmed, would they be more or less likely to be attacked by Israel?
July 27th, 2006 at 2:18 pmb.) IF Israel were to completely disarm, would they be more or less likely to be attacked by Islamic jihadists?
#120 asks: “a.) IF Islamic radicals were disarmed, would they be more or less likely to be attacked by Israel?
b.) IF Israel were to completely disarm, would they be more or less likely to be attacked by Islamic jihadists? ”
You are comparing a condition of “disarming” between an ideology that drives fanatics (radical Islamics) and an entire nation (Israel). The former have very similar goals, in general. The latter are as divided as any nation in their beliefs. Disarming an entire nation? How does one do that? Why would one do that? Would not that make the nation completely defenseless to all of its neighbors and enemies, and thus make the world less safe? Even Germany after WWII was allowed a limited military for defensive purposes.
More importantly, how do you disarm the “Islamic radicals”? When do you know that you have “disarmed” them? If they stop attacking do you assume that they are all “disarmed”, and thus of no danger to anyone? Or would that necessitate further “cleansing” to root out those who hold these radical ideals, and pose possible future threats? Would not a disarming of individuals hiding amongst a populace require one to disarm the entire population — i.e. the entire nation (thus rendering that nation open prey for all of its neighbors and enemies)? This concept of “disarm” that you propose really boils down to a hatred of a religious belief. “It is those darned radical Islamics that are to blame”, your kind cry, “So kill them.” Your kind propose that, “Those radical Islamics believe that they can just kill us because we do not agree with them,” (while having no idea whatsoever at to what actually drives them), “Well, they have an ideology of hatred and killing, so we are fully justified in killing them.”
(If you cannot see the hypocricy there… you may need some help: “Someone who desires to kill others, because of what they think, is evil, those people want to kill others because of what they think, therefore I think they are evil and I want to kill them.”)
The solution, as recently fostered by the US and now Israel, is to “purge the unclean of thought”: religious radicalism is in the mind, it is an ideology. You cannot shoot an ideology — you can only shoot people.
Why are you focusing on “Islamic radicals”? Are there not other religious beliefs that engender radicals who seek to use methods of terror and destruction in order to further their ends?
What are the precise and pragmatic conditions that Israel would accept and believe to determine that the “Islamic radicals” have been “disarmed”, and thus cease THEIR hostilities?
The answer to either a or b is completely hypothetical. You are angling for the answer that Israel would “back off” if the “Islamic radicals” were “disarmed”, and that if the nation of Israel were disarmed that the “Islamic radicals” would continue thier attacks. But the actual answer is unknown, as in EITHER instance, you first must define this ambiguous and impractical concept of “disarm” in a pragmatic manner, and you cannot do that. Your hypothetical situation, with its implied conclusion, is a chimera. This is not a matter of defining what “is” is — this is a matter of defining what you mean by this in a real-world and pragmatic sense. How do you “disarm” the terrorists, and what would signal satisfactorally that the disarmament had actually occured?
July 27th, 2006 at 3:41 pmI am a conservative. I am what you whiny, pathetic “peace at any price” people would call a warmonger. I think Israel is just in it’s actions. I think the USA is just in its actions. The more Islamic goons that are felled by our righteous war machines the better! If you do not like it, please feel free to leave. Go live in these countries that harbor those that would kill innocent Americans and Israelis for no other reason than the fact that you are an American or Israeli. See how long you last.
Spare the innocents on both sides. But crush the radical Islamists totally. Kill them all. Bury them in mass graves. For added fun, throw some bacon in too.
July 27th, 2006 at 3:51 pm#121 - “Why are you focusing on “Islamic radicalsâ€? Are there not other religious beliefs that engender radicals who seek to use methods of terror and destruction in order to further their ends?” - Comment by DisARM
Dear Mr. or Ms. Arm - I am focusing on Islamic radicals based on world events of the last 40 years. In that time frame, I was unable to uncover violent plots by Protestants, Catholics or Jews to beat opposition religious areas into submission with unprevoked attacks and suicide missions. When the Baptists and the Carmelites start blowing up modes of transportation, I will be more inclined to scrutinize them further. (P.S. No surprise - This was not the “brightest” question I encountered today.)
“The answer to either a or b is completely hypothetical. You are angling for the answer that Israel would “back off†if the “Islamic radicals†were “disarmedâ€, and that if the nation of Israel were disarmed that the “Islamic radicals†would continue thier attacks.” - Comment by DisARM
*****BRILLIANT, the question IS hypothetical!!!!! What I am angling for is YOUR assessment of behaviour and demonstrated history. HOW would YOU ASSESS the cast of characters in the region knowing what you KNOW. (One thing about too many progs - they appear incapable of dicerning the difference between aggression and defense….)
July 27th, 2006 at 4:06 pm#123
Still, your question is meaningless, as it requires one to accept a totally unreal and impossible condition (this ambiguous “disarmament” concept). You ignore the bulk of my post, and seek to distract rather than to continue and sustain a discussion. I addressed your question and asked for clarification of your intent so as to continue to discuss the hypothetical that you proposed. You primarily responded with condesending insults, and made sure to indicate that you have a religious intolerance tucked away in your closet. Lower your skirt, honey, your self-righteousness is showing (I can be insulting, and hypocritical, too).
But to show you the cortesey that you demand and yet refuse to display yourself, MY interpretation (which IS imbedded in my post, if you would actually read it for content and not simply looking for points to ferment your bile) is that if the Islamic radicals were “disarmed” (which I will assume, since you would not clarify, that you mean that they stop shooting missiles into Israel) Israel would NOT stop their military actions, for they would claim that there are more of these fellows hiding out and about, and must be cleansed, therefore military action will continue, since it has already begun.
This question applied to the state of affairs before this escalated into a war would have a different answer.
Politicains the world over and throughout history have a great difficulty in restraining themselves once they have begun down a path to fulfilling personal agendas (which are invariably, and usually inaccurately, linked to the agenda of the nation in question), and espescially when these agendas involve military action. Once a nation’s leader(s) puts a war machine on the move, it cannot bring itself to stop until it has been sated with enough blood…. and many in history have had insatiable appetites….
You also invoke history. I am not a great student of the history of international affairs, but is the situation (in terms of lives lost on each side and damage done on each side) a “historical norm” or a “historical rarity”, with the given that this began because two soldiers, on duty, were captured by a known enemy? Serious question, I am curious, and since you seem to believe yourself superior, perhaps you could enlighten me, while adressing my posts.
July 27th, 2006 at 4:37 pmAphrodite…
it seems to DISARMING would define agression on any level that involves weapons.. but sometimes the best defense is a good offense…
It amazes me how they watch any sport in that case… well except for tennis or ping pong..
you imagine an interception in football and giving the ball back to the offense at the spot it was caught?
or the defense isn’t allowed to sack the quarterback?
instead ask the referees to tell the offense to stop and to spot the ball where they feel like it?
July 27th, 2006 at 4:57 pmYou guys are forgetting an important point, Isreal is the one who started this war while Lebanon had to defend itself.
No action was taken by the lebanese government to defend the lebanese soil, so Hezbollah stood in the face of Isreal- it actually succeeded in minimizing the isreali ambition from eleminating Hezbollah to weakening them.
In this play of politics innocents are paying the price- from both sides, my hat is off for those who are holding their places under the fire.
Onething I felt that you should know, 99.9% of arabs and muslims don’t recognise Isreal as a country because it has been built on the ruins of dear Palestine. Another thing is that most of the isrealis were kicked off from their homelands in Europe and were placed in the heart of the arab world which happens to be a historical fact.
We continue to live in hope of witnessing the day when all rights are returned to their due owners.
July 27th, 2006 at 5:08 pm“#75
By the way, I do not remember UN doing any good. Anybody, please remind me.
Comment by One Jew — July 26, 2006 @ 2:17 pm”
UNICEF
UNESCO
UNSCOM
UNHCR
WHO
Start with those.
SR
July 27th, 2006 at 5:13 pm#124
“… with the given that this began because two soldiers, on duty, were captured by a known enemy?
Comment by disarmingambiguity — July 27, 2006 @ 4:37 pm ”
Actually, this was in response to the unprovoked slaughter by Israeli forces of a innocent family in the Gaza Strip (or don’t you remember the that story, even the part
where the 3-year-old girl was found crying inconsolably over the flaming ruins of her family’s home?)
SR
July 27th, 2006 at 5:19 pm#125 Jonser, I was responding directly to the questions posed by Mighty Aphrodite at the end of post #120, and attempting to maintain the discussion relevant to those questions and their implications. The questions revolve entirely around the concept of “disarm”. Re-read MA’s posts and re-read my posts, then come back to the discussion.
I see that you follow this rabid sports mentality. war, or any conflict, is not equitable to a sports match of any kind. It dishonors the soldiers who fight and die on any side of an armed conflict to reduce it to sports terminology.
I did not “define agression”, as you state. Not at all. I selected what appeared to be a relevant definition of “disarm” in order to be able to respond to MA’s questions (and my selection actually applied only to missile strikes). It amazes me that you can read or type, as you clearly cannot comprehend (you want to be insulting… right back at ya’, boyeeee).
An “interception” analogy? While I have not made any statement about my actual thoughts on the war there (or anywhere), I would have to say that following your sports analogy the captured soldiers was the “interception”, and the follow up action by Israel was a “defensive rush”. Or some similar nonesense. Get off the sports analogies, get out of high school, and join the real world.
You assume without evidence. You know what happens when you ASS-U-ME ?
It amazes me how you live in the real world, with your mind so firmly rooted in sports — do you tackle fellow employees as part of your work day?
Now, in American Football, on an interception the intercepting team takes the ball and runs with it for the endzone. If he makes it or not, the opposing side does not shoot him, or his family, or his neighbors, or his countrymen dead (now English football… well….).
The defense may sack the quaterback while he still holds the ball (and only while he still holds the ball).
Referees may be asked to stop the game for a time out, when the ball is not in play. Neither side may spot the ball, though the referee may. The ball may be spotted back if there was a penalty, as well.
Now, how the hell does that sports crap apply to the conflict in the Middle East?
July 27th, 2006 at 5:21 pm#128 I missed that story. Thanks, I’ll look for that.
July 27th, 2006 at 5:22 pm#121
“…if you do not like it, please feel free to leave. Go live in these countries that harbor those that would kill innocent Americans and Israelis for no other reason than the fact that you are an American or Israeli. See how long you last. ”
Comment by Conservative War Monger — July 27, 2006 @ 3:51 pm ”
Hmm, since the US harbors both the KKK and the Aryan Brotherhood, it seems I already do.
(And in case you object, consider for example that David Duke ran for office in 1976 while a member of the KKK and currently he is serving as Republican Party chairman for the St. Tamany Parish in Louisiana, and that the Bush administration is refusing to keep neo-nazis out of the military. I call that harboring.)
SR
July 27th, 2006 at 5:32 pmI have to leave for now. Play nice, everyone.
July 27th, 2006 at 5:44 pm133…
sergei…
you act as if neo nazi rule the roost in our military and bush allowed it? like clinton didn’t or any other president before… or does that fall under don’t ask don’t tell? or maybe you need a stronger example…
David Duke… do you think anyone takes him seriously
Robert Byrd? a U.S. Senator who still uses the “N” word? hmm…
July 27th, 2006 at 5:46 pmOne Jew - My favourite activity undertaken by the UN is the Christmas Card sale - I believe to benefit UNESCO. But when considered side by side with:
July 27th, 2006 at 6:11 pmLebanon being occupied by Hezbollah,
Rawanda,
Bosnia,
Somalia,
Liberia,
Kuwait,
Iraq/Iran
I would say the final tally is 99% dismal failure and 1% resounding success with the Baby Jesus, spinning dreidel and Ramadan special cards.
Sergei- since the largest percentage of vocal anti-Jewish sentitment is found in the rank RANKS of the ideological Left - I think you’d find KKK membership pretty evenly split between ignorant white trash and angry Progressives.
July 27th, 2006 at 6:14 pmre: #135
No, the KKK is comprised of people that are too poor and too dumb to conceal their racism to be Republicans, i.e. they don’t have a steady job, do too much Meth, and haven’t figured out how to substitute racial slurs for politically correct pejoratives like “liberal” or “progressive” (which are code words for anyone not racist or not white or both). Once they prove they can hold down a job, change their addiction to functional alcoholism, and learn how to camoflauge their bigotry, they can move up the ranks and become bonofide Republicans.
July 28th, 2006 at 6:10 amLabor Pains of a Stillborn Foreign Policy
By Robert Scheer
Truthdig.com
Tuesday 25 July 2006
In this column, Truthdig editor in chief Robert Scheer argues that Condoleezza Rice, in calling the Israel-Lebanon crisis simply the “birth pangs of a new Middle East,” underscored the Bush administration’s blindness to the disastrous effects its foreign policy has wrought.
The Bush foreign policy, from coddling Pakistan’s nuclear bomb-making to cheerleading Israel’s attacks on the Gaza Strip and Lebanon, is in a free fall of such alarming consequence that it may be difficult to grasp.
Certainly that is the case for President Bush, who has been reduced to helplessly hoping the United Nations can get Syria “to stop doing this s–,” and for U.S. Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice, who blithely announced Monday that we are just watching the “birth pangs of a new Middle East.”
By Rice’s logic, Hurricane Katrina was just the labor contractions of the new New Orleans. All the Mideast needs now, apparently, is a nice epidural and some ice chips to suck on.
The mass media similarly have lost the thread, treating the downward spiral of violent madness in the world as little more than an exciting - and profitable - war story, demanding slick logos and montages of explosions set to rock music. It’s also convenient to the neoconservatives, who prattle on about this being World War III, allowing them to silence critics, justify torture and invade privacy while conveniently covering for the failure of their Iraq invasion to produce the U.S.-friendly democracies they promised. Any hope that Rice’s ascendancy in the Bush administration signaled a more sensible direction for U.S. foreign policy has been exposed as wishful thinking.
“I have no interest in diplomacy for the sake of returning Lebanon and Israel to the status quo ante. I think it would be a mistake,” she told journalists. “What we’re seeing here, in a sense, is the growing - the birth pangs of a new Middle East and, whatever we do, we have to be certain that we’re pushing forward to the new Middle East, not going back to the old one.”
Funny how the new Middle East looks suspiciously like the old one: It is as if Rice doesn’t know Israel already tried invading southern Lebanon, in 1982, with Hezbollah being the reactionary development to the Israel Defense Forces’ 18-year-long occupation. Similar feelings of déjà vu surround the latest visit to Washington by a new Iraqi “government” leader who, practically speaking, rules nothing. The White House will cite the arriving Iraqi Prime Minister Nouri al Maliki as a living example of the “new” Middle East being fostered by Saddam Hussein’s overthrow. Never mind that the prime