Israel agrees to 48-hour suspension
By on Jul 30th, 2006 at 6:13 pm
Israel agrees to 48-hour suspension
“of aerial activity over southern Lebanon after its bombing of a Lebanese village on Sunday that killed a number of children.” The AP reports, “It was not immediately clear how much Israeli military activity the suspension would end. [An Israeli] official said only that the agreement covered aircraft, which would not rule out the use of ground troops or ground-based weapons systems.”
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The time for diplomacy is now. Paging a SecState with some skillz…
July 30th, 2006 at 6:19 pmI do not hold my breath for this 48 hours cease fire, so Israel will claim in about 24 hours that Hezbollah violated the ceasefire in some way, then Israel will bomb another orphanage or something else horribly!
July 30th, 2006 at 6:24 pmI don’t know, Jay.
July 30th, 2006 at 6:31 pmI have to hold out hope for this planet, and this may be a baby step toward a diplomatic solution. At least I have to hope that, because the flip side is too scary.
The question is; will hezbollah do the same? Most likely not.
July 30th, 2006 at 6:32 pmFrogcatcher,
July 30th, 2006 at 6:34 pmIt was Hezbollah who first said a cease fire was an option.
It was Israel who rejected it…………
Post > Yes we can all hope, but with Bush and Cheney around it is kind of hard to be optimistic, plus the Israelis seem to be going nuts > first time anybody like Hezbollah has stood up to them!
July 30th, 2006 at 6:36 pmPost 3 trueblue for post 6 above.
July 30th, 2006 at 6:37 pmfrogcatcher, what would israel do if an orphanage was bombed? considering the circumstances, hezbollah appears to be more paatient and prudent about not escalating this
July 30th, 2006 at 6:42 pmI doubt it will last, but I hope to be surprised.
Later,
July 30th, 2006 at 6:42 pm#5
Do you think for one second Hez was really willing to accept any options. These killers don’t negotiate, they are double talkers with only one thing in mind and that is the distruction of Israel. Don’t kid yourself.
July 30th, 2006 at 6:42 pmHezbollah wants a cease fire? Uh, of course. Then the terrorists can regroup, get re-armed and re-supplied by Iran and Syria, wait until international attention turns elsewhere, then start killing Israeli civilians again with rockets launched into another country.
Did you notice Hezbollah rejected the part about them disarming, as they were mandated to do by the UN? Or the part about them dropping their platform that Israel and the Jews be driven into the sea?
Before 2000, Hezbollah claimed they were fighting to reclaim the land Israel took as a buffer zone in Southern Lebanon. But then in 2000 Israel gave back the land and the UN verified it. So let me ask all you terrorist apologists here – the ones who make me embarrassed to be a liberal/progressive – what exactly do you think Hezbollah is still there for, if not their stated goal of destroying the Israeli state and the Jewish people there? Why are they still engaged in terrorism and still attacking, long after Israel gave back the land and the UN verified it?
You all fall so completely into the terrorists PR trap. Hezbollah hides in cities, behind civilians, launching rockets from crowded civilian areas. When Israel eventually misses (and its been remarkable accurate considering the volume) – the whole world pays attention to nothing but the tragic civilian deaths and blames Israel, forgetting that Hezbollah intentionally hides behind civilians for just this very reason. But that is their plan. They know nobody will remember the 99 strikes that hit the terrorist targets, the terrorists just need to wait for the 1 miss that will cause an international furor against Israel. And we here play right into their hands.
So let me ask again – what in 2006 is the purpose of this terrorist group? Do you not believe their stated goals that they want to drive the Jews into the sea? And why are so many here apparently in support of their goals (or at the very least angry when Israel fights back?) I never understood it.
July 30th, 2006 at 6:42 pmGreat I can actually have fun with my family for 48 hours
6 months before this Isreali shit
Isreal killed 144 palestinians including 45 children
Palestine killed 0 Isrealis
Palestine had a successful 18 month ceasefire until the beach killings by isreal
Palestine Fired 12 rockets into isreal killing nobody
nothing can justify Isreals actions
July 30th, 2006 at 6:42 pmmost European countries have a gold based monetary system
America seems to have a weapons for sale monetary system
Even your ecconomy is based on military funds slipping down to the poor
No wonder America acts selfishly alone in the world
Get a real job from RealJobs.com
And another question I’ve always had. Why does everyone just accept that Hezbollah is INTENTIONALLY firing rockets at civilian targets hoping to kill civilians in Israel, but go nuts when Israel ACCIDENTALLY hits a civilian target?
It’s an amazing double standard. It’s OK to target civilians, just don’t accidentally hit them when you are targeting terrorists.
July 30th, 2006 at 6:45 pm13 Ive been thinking that too . How come in the first couple days Hezbollah Rockets successfully hit two Isreali warships at Sea…
July 30th, 2006 at 6:49 pmThen their rockets could actually have a guidance system….. therefore there intended targets could be isreali Military Sights, Say Tanks and helecopter gunships hidden in Isreali cities too …………..
Jay B > Hezbollah does NOT have the military means to destroy Israel or drive them all into the sea! Israel is the aggressor attacking the civilians of Lebanon > their fight against Hezbollah seems to have backfired onto them!
July 30th, 2006 at 6:50 pmWould you allow someone to shoot rockets into your backyard. I think not. I think you would want your government to do something, anything! It’s easy to be a arm chair diplomat from the comforts of your own home.
July 30th, 2006 at 6:52 pmHezbollah rockets are basically small and crude devices that can damage buildings, but NOT completely destroy them, unlike Israeli/American precision 500 pound bombs that can reduce a building to rubble, like the one in Qana, Lebanon! Also Israel has 1000lb bunker buster bombs > Hezbollah rockets have about 25 lbs of explosive!
July 30th, 2006 at 6:55 pm6 months before this Isreali shit
Isreal killed 144 palestinians including 45 children with American helicopter gunships
Palestine killed 0 Isrealis
Palestine had a successful 18 month ceasefire until the beach killings by isreal
Palestine Fired 12 rockets into isreal killing nobody as a retaliation for the Beach killings
JUSTIFY THIS TROLLS WITH YOUR LOVE OF AMERICAN WEAPONS
July 30th, 2006 at 6:55 pmFor all that are interested the IDF has released several video segments taken from drones of Qana showing Hezbollah firing rockets into Israel. Apparently the building they were hiding their launchers behind was ’similar’ to the one destroyed (and in a nearby location).
The ground based weapons systems are even WORSE. They are not at all precision munitions and consist of artillery (mechanized artillery – those aren’t tanks that you see firing into lebanon but lighty armored mechanized artillery) and mobile missile launchers which are more accurate (and more expensive to use).
They will still use airpower – note they are opening a ‘corridor’ and have reserved the ‘right’ to attack if they are attacked. This is the same stuff.
In effect Israel is doing what has been demanded of it by all save the US – letting humanitarian relief in. Note: the IDF is saying that they want a reverse flow, ie, Lebanese to move OUT of south lebanon in the time frame. So it’s more of a ‘let the Red Cross come in and pick them up so we can really intensify our campaign’.
Yes the deaths were tragic but at the same time Hezbollah bears some responsibility for using civilians as shields – and not even that: they are doing things they know will kill innocents and which outrages the international community (against Israel).
Perhaps their ‘tactic’ is working and will bring things to a quick resolution.
Israel’s ‘problem’ is that there is no central control of this operation. YES NO CENTRAL CONTROL. They have a policy that accelerated under the current chief of staff that makes the regional commands (northern territories commander in this case) in control of these operations. This is not a good deal – especially when the general in charge of the northern territories happens to have his speciality in Transport and Logistics. yes, logistics. He’s also about to retire.
The General Staff do not exercise control over these commanders (although they are now since they realize how much they screwed up -read some of the Israeli publications). It’s like having the Joint Chiefs of Staff just sitting on the sidelines letting some 2-3 star implement the strategy and for the most part construct it.
On another note you should LOOK AT SOME OF THESE GENERALS. Many of the 1 stars who are running this current campaign are VERY YOUNG, ie,
July 30th, 2006 at 6:56 pm#15
You are right, as for right now. But have you noticed that Iran and Syria are supplying Hezbollah with more and more power weapons all the time. Katusha rockets are one thing, but now they have long range weapons, including the Chinese made, Iranian built C802 guided missle that almost sunk the Israel warship.
Because Israel has sure noticed the terrorist group on their border getting more and more powerful and long range weaponry.
And they also noticed that Hezbollah’s stated goal is to destroy their country. And they also noticed that Iran – the country supplying these weapons – recently denied the holocaust ever happened and then said Israel should be wiped off the map. And that Iran is getting closer and closer to nuclear weapons.
So I ask all of you. If you were Israel , would you sit around and wait for the terrorists? Of course not, and neither will they. Unlike the US and Iraq, Hezbollah IS a real and imminent terrorist threat, sitting right on their border.
And the question nobody here will ever answer is what exactly is Hezbollah’s goal?! It used to be to get the land back, but they already did. So why continue the terrorist attacks for 6 years? Do you think they might just be serious about hating the Jews and wanting to wipe Israel off the map? Or do they have to actually acquire the weapons from Iran first, then you will take them seriously at their word?
July 30th, 2006 at 6:57 pmFrog > Hezbollah and Israel are attacking each other > unless they both stop the war will continue > two way street over there!
July 30th, 2006 at 6:57 pmWell Jay B. without diplomacy the violence may never end for Israel > war just leads to more war! Israel has a few hundred nukes so Syria and Iran basically do NOT want to tangle with them!
July 30th, 2006 at 7:03 pm#21
Jay,
Lets say on day 3 of the U.S. attack on the Taliban and Al Queda fighters in Afghanistan the terrorists asked for a cease fire – what would you have told them? Would you have hoped the U.S. continued attacking until the terrorists and their enablers were no longer in charge, or would you have decided that both sides were equally at fault for 9/11 and the fighting and decided on a cease fire?
I’m just trying to figure out if you have a double standard, or truly aren’t bothered by terrorists attacking western countries, including our own.
July 30th, 2006 at 7:04 pmOk Israel and Lebanon, you’ve agreed to a 48 hour cease fire, get busy, get talking. Don’t count on the US, we don’t have anyone competent. Too many people (children!) have died for your stupid fight. Work it out.
July 30th, 2006 at 7:07 pmHezbollah has the capability to become a proxy army for Iran and Syria – which it has for the former. They certainly have the capability of wreaking havoc on the Israeli economy (no one goes to work in the northern territories) but at the same time they have brought about utter destruction on what are mostly shiite districts.
Hezbollah, not Israel, miscalculated – they thought Israel would just launch a few ‘pinpoint’ strikes and do a prisoner exchange. Bad timing. Lebanon has been devestated and – if you haven’t realized it – the people who helped build Lebanon back up are Arab governments (I consider princes who spend oil wealth as the ‘government’). I’m sure they are none too happy that their investments turned out very badly.
There really has been no answer to what Israel should do in these periodic kidnappings – during which a few Israeli soldiers always die. Just keep on handing over prisoners? How about getting the ONLY MILITIA in lebanon to disband and let the Lebanese government take control of the Lebanese border? That’d be a start but wouldn’t happen given the Shiite power within the current government.
Hezbollah appears to be ‘caving in’ to what were before no go areas (international force, Lebanese army ,etc). That’s embarrasing. So in a limited sense Israel will get what they ‘want’. of course if Hezbollah disarms it will probably be more of a transfer to the Lebanese army with the new border army being composed of ‘disarmed’ Hezbollah:)
July 30th, 2006 at 7:09 pm20# Hezbollah’s goal?! It used to be to get the land back, but they already
did
NOT TRUE Sheeba farms has not been handed back to lebanon
Israel should be wiped off the map
NOT TRUE
Isreal is not on any middle eastern countries map or Arab map it is palestine on their map – Technically Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad is 100% correct , you twist his words
FACT – You cannot travel any Middle eastern airlines with an Isreali Visa in your passport – Also you cannot visit Any Arab country with an Isreali Visa in Your Passport
July 30th, 2006 at 7:10 pmIts not an Iranian Staement its all the Middle eastern Countries or Arabb Rules FACT
#22 – Exactly. That’s exactly why Iran cannot have nuclear weapons. Israel uses nuclear weapons to counterbalance their size amongst larger, hostile neighbors who want nothing more than the destruction of Israel.
Nasrallah needs to get on TV as soon as possible and announce that Hezbollah will honor the temporary cease-fire as well. Imagine the good-will this would show they possess.
I doubt this will happen, but if they did, it would almost force Israel to the table.
July 30th, 2006 at 7:11 pm#22
That’s easy to say on paper. But regardless what Israel tries, the terrorists repond with war.
In 1999-2000 Bill Clinton came incredibly close to a peace deal, one Israel signed off on, only to have Arafat turn down peace in favor of another terrorist intifatah.
In 2000 Israel left Lebanon. Hezbollah responded with more terrorism.
In 2006 Israel left the Gaza strip. That same day, the Hamas terrorists (since elected to represent the Palestinian people, BTW) began attacks from the new terroritory, and haven’t stopped since.
Israel has agreed to give up land for peace. Israel has even unilaterally left land. But they don’t get peace. And that’s what you don’t seem to want to understand. The terrorist elements never wanted peace. They want Israel destroyed as a state. And they aren’t shy about admitting it either. Why is it so hard for you to believe their own words and actions.
Hezbollah doesn’t want “peace”. They want a cease-fire to regroup and rearm.
July 30th, 2006 at 7:11 pmJay B. > you are trying to compare an apple to an orange with US attack on Afghanistan! Israel decided to escalate a small event of Hezbollah capturing 2 Israeli soldiers > instead of attacking Hezbollah directly, Israel launched an all out attack on Lebanon’s infrastructure, like blowing up bridges and bombing Beirut’s airport > wrong move by Israel! That was disproportionate use of military force, then Hezbollah retaliated by firing rockets into Israel! Now it’s a real mess in Lebanon, and Israel is getting clobbered with rockets daily! Best to use diplomacy, before warfare!
July 30th, 2006 at 7:13 pmI realize the focus is on the rocket arsenal (at least publicly) but the Israelis are killing quite a few militants, destroying a rebuilt southern lebanon (and shiite districts of Beirut), and basically using their military to grind the Lebanese economy to a halt. Israel might see a GDP dip but nothing in comparison to their neighbor – they seem to be letting the Lebanese know that Hezbollah is not tolerable on the border and the consequences of doing nothing are severe.
You said ‘unless they both stop the war will continue’. Really? Umm, that’s sort of how wars end right? ’stopping’ doesn’t mean just stopping the fighting – it means the Lebanese government taking control of their southern border and not allowing hezbollah to start a repeat of this again.
The ‘pain’ Lebanon is feeling will give them some reason to act – Hezbollah thought there would be a very limited response and now faces the prospect of being publicly praised for their resistance but losing a good deal of their military power (Hezbollah is the only milita left in Lebanon, all others disarmed ie Druze, maronites, sunnis, etc)
July 30th, 2006 at 7:16 pmIs anyone watching 60 Minutes?
That guy was amazing. I hope he’s near the top of the queue for an “extraordinary rendition.”
July 30th, 2006 at 7:16 pmWhat guy, Chase, for those of us on Pacific Time.
July 30th, 2006 at 7:17 pm#26
The Sheeba Farms issue is a farce, and if you were at all serious or objective you’d already know that. The UN – which is about as anti-Israel as anyone – verified that Israel vacated the Lebanese lands and the security council has confirmed this. Hezbollah uses the tiny Sheeba farms area as an excuse to continue their terrorism, but even the UN has acknowledged that Israel has left Lebanese land.
Your second comment shows how warped and ridiculous your position is. You are 100% right – most of these countries don’t technically have Israel on their maps, because they do not acknowledge its existance and want to remove it entirely!! This proves they mean what they say about wanting to destroy it and remove the Jews – they still do not acknowledge the country there and seek to destroy it! Thanks for making my point on their attitudes and the causes of their terrorism.
July 30th, 2006 at 7:18 pmI have to go eat dinner, but I will be back on this thread later to respond to questions that you have asked of me!
Take care all.
July 30th, 2006 at 7:18 pm#32 – Osama bin Laden’s former bodyguard, Abu Jandal. He was interviewed in Yemen, where he is a free man.
It’s quite shocking how open he is about his beliefs. Whenever I start to think, “maybe this war on terror goes to far sometimes”, leave it to an interview like that to remind me real quick what the consequences of inaction would be.
July 30th, 2006 at 7:22 pm#29
How naive are you exactly? They should “attack Hezbollah directly”. Ok, and how exactly do you do that? They don’t wear uniforms, have specially marked equipment and vehicles like a real army. They are terrorists – they blend in with the civilian populace, they fire rockets from behind civilian buildings, and they stay in densely packed urban areas. I’m as pissed off as you are that the terrorists of Hezbollah are using Lebanese civilians as shields in a war those civilians didn’t even want. But that’s what terrorists do, they don’t care about human life around them. This isn’t the German WWII army where you knew your enemy by sight because they had lines of tanks and uniforms. Bombing the bridges connecting Lebanon to Syria (and thus Iran), for example, directly cuts off the supply of terror weapons from Iran and Syria.
As for apples and oranges, again that’s easy for you to say not being there. But if the U.S. border was attacked regularly by terrorists for decades, even if each single attack “only” killed 5 Americans here and there – at some point the U.S. would respond by going in and taking out the terrorists. You don’t need the loss of 3,000 people like 9/11 to defend your people from terror attacks.
What would your number be? 500 killed? 2,000 killed? 20 killed? How many of your people have to die from terror attacks from a neighboring country before you’d fight the terrorists and take them out?
July 30th, 2006 at 7:24 pm33# Your second comment shows how warped and ridiculous your position is. You are 100% right - most of these countries don’t technically have Israel on their maps, because they do not acknowledge its existance and want to remove it entirely!! This proves they mean what they say about wanting to destroy it and remove the Jews – they still do not acknowledge the country there and seek to destroy it! Thanks for making my point on their attitudes and the causes of their terrorism.
Wrong again they do not want to destroy Isreal they want to live in peace with no borders in Palestine, I take it you have never been out of America , Muslims live happily with christains and Jews , Im Just back from Tunisia there are jews quarters there too I have been to many Arab countries and never been in trouble in fact its far far safer than america . which I have never been too or even wish to goto till Bush is out of Power and America changes its foreign policy and cares for its people more so i dont feel I’m gonna get robbed or murdered
Note did you see hezbollah (terrorists)attacking American cruise ships,
do you see Muslims in Lebanon living with 40% Christians peacefully
did you know Eygpt is 30% christain even Iraq was 5% christian , did you see Iraqis killing them
Have you experienced Jews Living In Morocco with Muslims
Palestinians simply want their country back and the jews to live there in peace instead of taking bigger and bigger slices of the cake
Even the true Jews want to give palestine back in Peace
July 30th, 2006 at 7:36 pmThis is why Arab countries have Palestine on the map and not Isreal
This is why you cannot fly ( gulf air, united arab emirates, or any Arab airlines with an Isreali visa on your passport) or ( why you cannot visit ANY arab country with Isreali visa on your passport )
America seems to still beleive a holy war is still happening ( narrow mindedness or brainwashing) or something
#32 60 minutes had a repeat of an interview of an al qaeda
July 30th, 2006 at 7:43 pmthat claimed to close to Osama. He was in prison in Yemen for
a few years and is now being restricted to the country. He knew
the people that blew up the USS Cole.
Well, bush/cheney must be pissed. It is obvious by the lack of USA action that the USA supported this massive attack on Lebanon. Is it possible that the real purpose for Israel to launch this poorly thought out mission was to draw Syria and Iran into it? I certainly hope they were not fooled by US Intelligence (shaped by cheney) saying that it would be “cake walk” and they would be greeted with hugs and kisses. Many observers believe the REAL goal of bush/cheney (and their neocon puppet masters) is to attack Iran and Syria. What better excuse than to defend Israel from these evil doers?
July 30th, 2006 at 7:48 pmOk Israel and Lebanon, you’ve agreed to a 48 hour cease fire, get busy, get talking.
Comment by Zooey — July 30, 2006 @ 7:07 pm
you tell ‘em, zooey! listen to her! she knows!
July 30th, 2006 at 7:51 pmThanks Chase & El Chupacabra, I saw that interviewon the first run. Lovely man (that’s sarcasm).
Thanks katy, For your mouth/keyboard to their ears/eyes. You know what I mean. :)
July 30th, 2006 at 8:01 pmAfter they killed 60 in Qana…that will seem a nice gesture.
July 30th, 2006 at 9:06 pmThey are terrorists – they blend in with the civilian populace, they fire rockets from behind civilian buildings, and they stay in densely packed urban areas. I’m as pissed off as you are that the terrorists of Hezbollah are using Lebanese civilians as shields in a war those civilians didn’t even want. But that’s what terrorists do, they don’t care about human life around them
July 30th, 2006 at 9:09 pmCommeny by Jay B
I got the solution: Just bomb everybody away. That will surely destroy terrorism.
Juan – Hezbollah is innocent huh? Freedom fighters, fighting the great oppressors.
July 30th, 2006 at 9:33 pmI seem to have to keep repeating myself in comments sections.
Both sides are the bad guy. There is no good guy. Both sides are to blame.
People want to justify the actions of either side, but no actions of either side are justifiable.
July 30th, 2006 at 10:06 pm#37 You are kidding, right? The terrorist want to live in peace with Israel? That would be hilarious if I didn’t think you may actually believe that. These people do not want a 2 state solution, with the little Jewish state living peacefully next to all the Arab states. They want the Jewish state eliminated and for all the land to be Arab states. And to get this, they resort to terrorism. Their own charters and public statements admit to all this – they want the Jewish state of Israel destroyed and replaced. So how do you make peace with terrorists whose goal is your destruction? You don’t.
#45 Ah, the moral equivilency trap we on the left always fall into so easily. If two sides are fighting, then both must be the bad guys. We can’t say the terrorists are the bad guys because they target civilians. We can’t say the western democratic ally is the good guy because they are fighting back against the terrorists finally. No, we have to pretend everyone is the same. I guess when the U.S. fought back against Japan, or Al Queda or Nazi Germany, we were all the same morally, right?
July 30th, 2006 at 10:16 pm#43 No, you target the terrorists, their weapons and their infrastructure. Stop being naive – this is a war and a war zone. No matter how technologically sophisticated a country like the U.S. or Israel is, there will always be civilian casualties and its incredibly unfortunate. Nobody is ever 100% accurate in a war. Do you think there is a magic button that makes all the terrorists go away but leaves all the innocents?
But stop and think for a second and ask yourself these questions:
1) Why does Hezbollah hide behind innocent Lebanese civilians and U.N. Posts, firing their rockets from just feet away?
July 30th, 2006 at 10:20 pm2) Why does Israel drop leaflets prior to bombing warning anyone not involved with the terrorists to leave the area?
3) Why do you equate the country that targets terrorists with the terror groups that target civilians in cities?
Since Israel is unable to control terrorists within its own borders, why does it expect the nascent Lebanese government to do better?
July 30th, 2006 at 10:26 pmSince Israel is unable to control terrorists within its own borders
What terrorists are you referring to?
July 30th, 2006 at 10:29 pm#49
1) Obviously it is a tactic to discourage counter-attack.
2) Obviously it is a tactic to defend against bad press.
3) Because the country that “targets terrorists” kills more innocent civilians than the terrorists themselves. Now that is a tough question. Is it worth the loss of innocent life? Perhaps, if they are brown enough. Answer this though…what is different this time? Why are the Israelis not willing to do a prisoner swap like they have in the past. It is totally out of character. They have not done this in the past. Doesn’t that make you wonder what their goal is this time?
July 30th, 2006 at 10:30 pmPalestinian Arabs.
July 30th, 2006 at 10:35 pm#48
What terrorists? Israel has done a pretty spectacular job of limited Palestinian terrorism inside of Israel, given the realities of that area.
I think people expected the Lebanese government to at least try to do something, and it did almost nothing for over a year. I think if they tried to stop the terrorists and failed, people would look at this much differently. But they didn’t even really try. Where are the troops at the border? Where are the confiscations of terrorist weapons? Where is the crackdown on Iranian weapon shipments?
And the bottom line is the same whether Lebanon couldn’t or just didn’t do a thing about its Hezbollah terrorists – Israel is the only one left that could.
July 30th, 2006 at 10:37 pmChase,
July 30th, 2006 at 10:38 pmYou should be aware that there are things called newspapers and magazines.
So you are trying to blame Israel for Palestinian terrorist attacks within Israel?
July 30th, 2006 at 10:40 pmWalt,
Are you seriously saying because Israel can only stop 99.9% of the Palestinian terrorists that its the same as Lebanon not lifting a finger to do anything about its Hezbollah terrorists? There are so many things obviously wrong with that position I wouldn’t know where to start.
July 30th, 2006 at 10:40 pm#51,
July 30th, 2006 at 10:43 pmWhy penalize Lebanon for what it could not do? They are only three months out of Syrian control and Iraq is three years out of Saddam’s control. Do you understnd the scale?
Haha. No Walt, I’ve heard of those.
I posed the question because I was so shocked that you would even try and equivocate Israel (who is largely successful in protecting their citizens from a constant terrorist threat) and Lebanon (who, for whatever reason, has made the decision to do nothing in the south and allow the Hezbollah militia to remain armed).
July 30th, 2006 at 10:45 pm#55
Syria left in April of 2005. It’s been over a year, and Lebanon has done nothing to show in the slightest that it was going to carry out the UN mandate and police its own border. Same as the Palestinian Authority never did a thing against the Hamas terrorists (and then the PA people actually elected them! Which tells you all you need to know there)
If Lebanon tried and failed, that is one thing. But they didn’t even try, they just let the terrorists continually attack its neighbor.
If anyone is penalizing Lebanon, its Hezbollah. By starting this war, then hiding among Lebanese civilians, they are doing an incredible disservice to the people they are ostensibly fighting for. But what do their Iranian masters care?
July 30th, 2006 at 10:47 pmJay B.
July 30th, 2006 at 10:49 pmActually, Mossad is only about 60% effective. If your numbers held, there would be 6000 terrorists killed per day in the West bank, Israel and Gaza per day. Hardly holds water, much less petroleum.
Walt,
Please tell me where you are getting your numbers from. Everything I have read over the years points to the amazing effectiveness of Israel in breaking up potential terror attacks inside the country. Not to mention you can look at the very small number of serious terrorist attacks that actually were successful inside Israel in the past few years.
But what exactly is your point? How does this excuse Lebanon from not doing a thing? And – more to the point – assuming Lebanon can’t or won’t – then why shouldn’t Israel do the job for them? Or is your point that Israel should just sit back and allow the killing of its soldiers and civilians by terrorists on their border for years and years. What exactly would you have done in their place – I can’t wait to hear these answers.
July 30th, 2006 at 10:52 pmThis is symbolic more than anything else, but at this point I will take symbolism.
Why it is symbolic is because the people that are currently left behind lack the means to escape and the roads are in such shambles that outside transportation could not get in and get out in the 24-hour window.
Another thing we learned today is that many of those left behind have stayed behind to tend to their livestock herds. And frankly, much of the livestock would perish within 3-4 days without attention at this time of year.
Yes, Israel is entitled to defend itself. Yet it is hard to see from the target selection how one could describe this as defending itself. It has been brutal and punative.
July 30th, 2006 at 10:53 pm#55 – It’s not so much that Lebanon “could not”, it’s that they “would not”. They did not force the disarmament of Hezbollah, and they further erred in permitting them to conduct militia operations in South Lebanon. Their unabated actions led to where we are today.
The legitimate government of Lebanon has an interest in disarming and disbanding Hezbollah in conjunction with Israel. Not only would the open repudiation of a terrorist organization by a nascent democratic Muslim state go a long way in building international legitimacy, but it would also hasten the movement toward peace and security in the region.
July 30th, 2006 at 10:54 pmJay B,
July 30th, 2006 at 11:13 pmI will have to admit that I am getting these numbers from memory. but the real issue is that Lebanon is a country occupied by people foreign to its destiny. That nation is being penalized for its mere proximity to Israel. The last time I visited Lebanon (In the 60″s), it was an idyllic place. Now it presents an ecological disaster.
Whenever I start to think, “maybe this war on terror goes to far sometimesâ€, leave it to an interview like that to remind me real quick what the consequences of inaction would be.
July 30th, 2006 at 11:16 pmChase
————
So,killing thousands of Iraqi children would be characterized by you as being”action against terrorism”?
No regrets,huh?
Brave keyboard warrior.
Ok, but you still didn’t answer my key question. I’ll ask again:
And – more to the point – assuming Lebanon can’t or won’t – then why shouldn’t Israel do the job for them? Or is your point that Israel should just sit back and allow the killing of its soldiers and civilians by terrorists on their border for years and years.
What exactly would you have done in their place?
July 30th, 2006 at 11:17 pmI have a hard time understanding how a terrorist group like Hez is able to have a government within a government. I understand that hez has some seats in the government, but when is it ok for a political party to have its own military. Would that be acceptable here in the USA? If a country is sovereign then it should have but one military that is under one rule. I understand that this is a young Democracy, but that’s not an excuse. The UN should have lived up to its commitments and helped this country become secure within its own boarders and not turn the other cheek while watching Hez become as strong as they have. You have to wonder what’s going on here.
July 30th, 2006 at 11:35 pm“#43 No, you target the terrorists, their weapons and their infrastructure. Stop being naive – this is a war and a war zone. No matter how technologically sophisticated a country like the U.S. or Israel is, there will always be civilian casualties and its incredibly unfortunate. Nobody is ever 100% accurate in a war. Do you think there is a magic button that makes all the terrorists go away but leaves all the innocents?”
Yes, it’s very simple. If you think there are woman an children in the area don’t shoot. Do a little more looking around and be sure of your target. Or you could just kill everyone and say it’s not our fault. Jeez.
July 30th, 2006 at 11:42 pmI quess all that carnage can tire someone out. That, and Isreal probobly had to take time to reload.
We need to end all U.S. aid to the Isreali government now! They have no regard for the innocent in Lebanon. To them, all Lebonesse are the same.
July 30th, 2006 at 11:43 pmPost 36 Jay B. > Hezbollah captured 2 Israeli soldiers on the Lebanese border, and killed 3 other Israeli soldiers in the process > Israel instead of attacking Hezbollah fighters along the border, instead started bombing bridges, Beirut Airport, power plants, etc, which killed Lebanese civilians! According to the Geneva Conventions civilians must not be collectively punished in warfare! Israel choose to turn a border incident into an all out war on Lebanon, which has killed hundreds of people in Lebanon, and dozens in Israel as well!
July 30th, 2006 at 11:47 pmAt what point will Israel be held accountable for their own actions? Does Israel believe that the Palestinians have the ‘right’ to exist? Their ‘policies’ regarding the Palestinians would not seem to indicate that it rates very highly for them, as priorities go. And today, Israel suddenly decides to ‘cool it’ for 48 hours, after 37 children ignored those ‘leaflets’ dropped on them by Israel, and went ahead and got themselves blown to bits, by a country that is merely ‘exercising their right to defend themselves.’ “It was an accident.” Yes, of course it was. Israel has ‘accidents’, Hezbollah is ‘deliberately targetting’. The U.N. observers killed the other day were also an Israeli ‘accident’. OOOPS! Bummer, sorry about that! Collateral damage, wink, wink. And the U.S. refuses to call for a cease-fire, while they speed more weapons to Israel. Really subtle. But we are not ‘taking sides.’ And Israel overlooks it’s own contributions to Hezbollah’s feelings about them. I’m sure Lebanon was thrilled with the invasion and occupation of their country by Israel. Hey, Iraq is digging us being in their country, right?, Yeah, they want us to stay FOREVER! A ‘Moment of Clarity’, please!
July 30th, 2006 at 11:47 pmThis is a must read:
July 30th, 2006 at 11:53 pmWhen I was in the Navy, I once witnessed a bar fight in downtown Olongapo (Philippines) that still haunts my dreams. The fight was between a big oafish Marine and a rather soft-spoken, medium-sized Latino sailor from my ship.
All evening the Marine had been trying to pick a fight with one of us and had finally set his sights on this diminutive shipmate of mine… figuring him for a safe target. When my friend refused to be goaded into a fight, the Marine sucker-punched him from behind on the side of the head so hard that blood instantly started to pour from this poor man’s mutilated ear.
Everyone present was horrified and was prepared to absolutely murder this Marine, but my shipmate quickly turned on him and began to single-handedly back him towards a corner with a series of stinging jabs and upper cuts that gave more than a hint to a youth spent boxing in a small gym in the Bronx.
Each punch opened a cut on the Marine’s startled face and by the time he had been backed completely into the corner he was blubbering for someone to stop the fight. He invoked his split lips and chipped teeth as reasons to stop the fight. He begged us to stop the fight because he could barely see through the river of blood that was pouring out of his split and swollen brows.
Nobody moved. Not one person.
The only sound in the bar was the sickening staccato sound of this sailor’s lightning fast fists making contact with new areas of the Marine’s head. The only sound I have heard since that was remotely similar was from the first Rocky film when Sylvester Stallone was punching sides of beef in the meat locker.
Finally the Marine’s pleading turned to screams…. a high, almost womanly shriek. And still the punches continued relentlessly.
Several people in the bar took a few tentative steps as though they wanted to try to break it up at that point, but hands reached out from the crowd and held them tight. I’m not ashamed to say that mine were two of the hands that held someone back.
You see, in between each blow the sailor had begun chanting a soft cadence: “Say [punch] you [punch] give [punch] up [punch]… say [punch] you [punch] were [punch] wrong [punch].â€
He had been repeating it to the Marine almost from the start but we only became aware of it when the typical barroom cheers had died down and we began to be sickened by the sight and sound of the carnage.
This Marine stood there shrieking in the corner of the bar trying futilely to block the carefully-timed punches that were cutting his head to tatters… right down to the skull in places. But he refused to say that he gave up… or that he was wrong.
Even in the delirium of his beating he believed in his heart that someone would stop the fight before he had to admit defeat. I’m sure this strategy had served him well in the past and had allowed him to continue on his career as a barroom bully.
Finally, in a wail of agony the Marine shrieked “I give up,†and we gently backed the sailor away from him.
I’m sure you can guess why I have shared this story today.
I’m not particularly proud to have been witness to such a bloody spectacle, and the sound of that Marine’s woman-like shrieks will haunt me to my grave. But I learned something that evening that Israel had better learn for itself if it is to finally be rid of at least one of its tormentors:
This is one time an Arab aggressor must be allowed to be beaten so badly that every civilized nation will stand in horror, wanting desperately to step in and stop the carnage… but knowing that the fight will only truly be over when one side gives up and finally admits defeat.
Just as every person who had ever rescued that bully from admitting defeat helped create the cowardly brute I saw that evening in the bar, every well-intentioned power that has ever stepped in and negotiated a cease-fire for an Arab aggressor has helped create the monsters we see around us today.
President Lahoud of Lebanon, a big Hezbollah supporter and a close ally of Syria, has been shrieking non-stop to the UN Security Council for the past two days to get them to force Israel into a cease fire.
Clearly he has been reading his autographed copy of ‘Military Success for Dummies: Arab Despots’ by the late Gamal Abdel Nasser of Egypt. Ever since Nasser accidentally discovered the trick in ‘56, every subsequent Arab leader has stuck to his tried and true formula for military success:
Instigate a war.
Once the war is well underway and you are in the process of having your ass handed to you… get a few world powers to force your western opponent into a cease-fire.
Whatever you do, don’t surrender or submit to any terms dictated by your enemy. That would ruin everything! All you have to do is wait it out and eventually the world will become sickened at what is being done to your soldiers and civilian population… and will force a truce.
Once a truce has been called, you can resume your intransigence (which probably caused the conflict in the first place), and even declare victory as your opponent leaves the field of battle.
This tactic has never failed. Not once.
In fact it worked so well for the Egyptians in 1973, that to this day they celebrate the Yom Kippur War – a crushing defeat at the hands of Israel – as a military victory! No kidding… it’s a national holiday over there!
President Lahoud has already begun to shriek like a school girl to the UN Security Council to “Stop the violence and arrange a cease-fire, and then after that we’ll be ready to discuss all matters.â€
Uh huh. Forgive me if I find that a tad hard to swallow. He allowed Hezbollah to take over his country. He allowed the regular Lebanese army to provide radar-targeting data for the Hezbollah missile that struck the Israeli destroyer. He has turned a blind eye while Iranian and Syrian weapons, advisers and money have poured into his country.
And now that his country is in ruins he wants to call it a draw.
As much as it may sicken the world to stand by and watch it happen, strong hands need to hold back the weak-hearted and let the fight continue until one side finally admits unambiguous defeat.
Here’s the original link to Bogner’s post – rather brilliant, I must say. And thanks go to this person for sharing this with me and my friends:
Ch., Lt Col Brett C. Oxman Staff Chaplain, Personnel and Budget Office of the AF Chief of Chaplains DSN 297-1485, Civ (202) 767-1485
Suppose a Mexican drug lord attacked some of our border guards, killing 3 of them and capturing a couple > would the US government have the right to bomb Mexico’s bridges, power plants, and other infrastructure, including the capital of Mexico City? NO that action would be deemed unaceptable, but attacking the drug lord and his goons would be a proportionate response! Mexico like Lebanon does not have complete control over its border, so to punish Mexico’s civilians would be as unjustified as Israel is doing to Lebanese civilians! So in effect if we punished the entire nation of Mexico, for the act of a crazed drug lord, then all of Central and South America might declare war on the United States, which is what all the nations of the Middle East are thinking of doing to Israel now! Diplomacy before a war starts is the best policy!
July 30th, 2006 at 11:58 pmHere is the link for post #70
http://bogieworks.blogs.com/treppenwitz/2006/07/thanks_i_needed.html
July 31st, 2006 at 12:07 amNice story frog about that bar fight, but wars kill innocent civilians, unlike the beaten man in the bar who is able to walk away alive! It takes brave leaders to prevent the rush to war!
July 31st, 2006 at 12:08 amThe point was the sailor tried to walk away, but the Marine took a shot anyway. The sailor in a sense is like Israel. They tried to do the right thing. Israel pulled out of Lebanon and Gaza and they tried to walk away, only to be sucker punched. You said it takes brave leaders, please elaborate. What is the solution?
July 31st, 2006 at 12:28 amFollow up question; if you were one of these leaders what would you do in the first days of this crisis?
July 31st, 2006 at 12:33 amAs long as the US holds veto power in the security council,,,Israel has nothing to fear about answering for their actions, they know any UN resolution will simply be vetoed and that is the end as far as they are concerned, because they can “claim” they violate no UN resolutions
July 31st, 2006 at 12:35 amAnd frog the US is the enabler in your story
July 31st, 2006 at 12:40 amBecause in1973 and this July when Israerl got in a fight which they didn’t have the resources for..the US has come running to bail them out, by sending BOMBS and Intell
July 31st, 2006 at 12:42 amPost 74 Frog > If I was PM Olmert of Israel I would have NOT ordered the bombing of Lebanon’s infrastructure, nor its airport or power plants or bridges! After the 2 soldiers were captured, I would have given an ultimatim for them to be returned, then bombed Hezbollah fighters along the border if the soldiers were not returned, or if negotiations failed for a prisoner swap! Once Olmert attacked Lebanon’s infrastructure, he gave an excuse for Hebollah to retaliate with rockets fired at Israel, which then caused both sides to esculate the conflict! Wars once started tend to get out of control, and the destruction of the building in Qana that killed 56+ Lebanese civilians denotes what war once unleashed can cause, which is mayhem and atrocities! NOW the only thing that can be done is to try to get both sides to cease bombing each other, before it drags the entire Middle East into it!
July 31st, 2006 at 12:45 amAnd the pays 25% of their defense budget..DIRECTALLY..and we sell them arms at a discount…
We sent our tax payers money to help them pay their bills, not to aid the children or elderly in THIS country..
And our own MSM has basically turned their collective backs on the US soldiers to cover a FORIEGN war
July 31st, 2006 at 12:48 amThe point was the sailor tried to walk away, but the Marine took a shot anyway. The sailor in a sense is like Israel. They tried to do the right thing. Israel pulled out of Lebanon and Gaza and they tried to walk away, only to be sucker punched. You said it takes brave leaders, please elaborate. What is the solution?
Comment by The Frog — July 31, 2006 @ 12:28 am
The solution Frog is simple. Continue to address the root causes while steeling your gut for the occasional painful punch. Thats brave because the potential innocent deaths in the situation are all on your “side”, and you’ll get political flak for that. However, the military have never been, and never will be a solution to terrorism.
Hizbollah had been launching rocket attacks into border settlements, resulting it must be noted in very few casualties. There is not much difference in the casualty rates inflicted for example, on the British by the IRA. This is not to excuse it you understand, but to put it in context.
Despite several decades of terrorism, the British never bombed Dublin City or our airports, blockaded Dublin port, or took any action that killed hundreds of Southern Irish civilians indiscriminatley, and make no mistake, these options were on the table.
Certainly they made some blunders, and did some dreadful things, but in the main and luckily for all involved, cooler heads prevailed.
Israel would have been much wiser to work carefully with the Lebanese government to eliminate the problem that way, as the British did with Ireland. What does Britian have next door now? A prosperous and confident friendly economy with whom they share a common internal customs border, as well as regular and enthusiastic co-operation on many issues within the EU.
Israel could do far worse than to follow that model, they have been trying collective punishment for 50 years, and you certainly couldn’t claim that it’s working. Time to look too conflicts were there has been widespread resolution, and try a different approach.
July 31st, 2006 at 12:52 amThe U.S. gives money and weapons to Israel, Israel uses the weapons to kill their enimies, but the U.S. just can’t understand why the ‘terrorists’ don’t like us, and want to kill us. Yup, it’s a puzzler, all right. A real head-scratcher.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:00 am*enemies
July 31st, 2006 at 1:02 amIsrael and the US want failed states to bully around or puppet leaders who are monarchs or dictators.
-GSD
July 31st, 2006 at 1:06 amYes Brian imagine if Britain had bombed Southern Ireland for terrorist attacks in the North > it would have been outrageous conduct by the British, but like you said cooler heads prevailed! Ireland was lucky actually, because remember PM Thatcher bombed Argentina over the stupid Falkland Islands > ended up getting a couple of her ships sunk, then she had a Argentian vessel torpedoed by a submarine > what a damn mess she caused!
July 31st, 2006 at 1:07 amthe bar fight is a terrible analogy for what is happening in lebanon at the indiscriminate and murderous hands of the israeli’s.
it may have been a more accurate depiction had you said the sailor first, after having been sucker punched, demolitioned the marine’s house with his wife and children in it and then proceeded to bomb the marine’s neighborhood, killing anyone who lived near the marine.
wake up, people! killing is wrong regardless of who’s doing it.
a bar room fight is just that — a bar room fight. an illegal pre-emptive war against a civilian population is murder.
the tactics of terror are not exclusive to al qaeda, hamas or hezbollah. just ask the grieving relatives of those murdered in my lai, fallujah or qana.
i suppose terror is relative to your perspective?
July 31st, 2006 at 1:15 am#66 The naivete on this board is sometimes frightening. “If you think there are women and children in the area don’t shoot”. Great advice on paper. Here are some of the real world problems: 1) Intel is not always 100% accurate. In the fog of war, in the middle of another country, you don’t always know exactly who is where and when. 2) Even in the rare cases where you do, missiles do not always land exactly where you tell them to. 3) This plays perfectly into the terrorists hands. The second you tell them the other side can never strike if they hide behind civilians, that’s exactly what they will do from then on. The best you can do is what Israel is doing – send leaflets warning those not involved to leave, then do your best to target the terrorists and military targets. You all seem to live in this video game world of perfect strikes, readily identifiable enemies who don’t use civilians as shields, and zero errors.
#67 If that was true at all, Israel would not send leaflets warning the innocent to leave. And they would not target terrorists, they would do what Hezbollah does and target innocents. Not accidentally hit them during the course of 20 days of warfare – I mean target them like the terrorists do. But of course they don’t. The reason its such a huge deal the one time Israel screws up and hits civilians is that the other 499 times out of 500 they don’t. So the one becomes a huge international issue. Notice how Hezbollah targets nothing but civilians in cities? Where is the outcry?
#68 What you are missing is that these things are intergral to Hezbollah. The bridges to Iran and Syria, for example, supply them with their heavy weaponry. Hezbollah HQ are in Beirut – Israel isn’t attacking random cities – they are attacking the terrorist HQs! They are dealing with the terrorists on the border to, but Hezbollah is not limited there. It’s unfortunate Lebanon allowed the terrorists to build up there for so long and are now caught in the middle.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:15 amComment by SDR — July 31, 2006 @ 1:15 am
touche’… that story was made up anyway…
July 31st, 2006 at 1:22 amjust like most tales with a “lesson”…
“and the moral of the story is…”
i would implore people to start thinking for themselves rather than to mindlessly regurgitate the “talking points” from either side.
peace will never come from the end of a gun — especially a gun which is being held and aimed by a government with profit motive and empire as it’s goals.
pax
July 31st, 2006 at 1:25 amcyra – i could see you on stage… angry liberal humor/satire…
you do it good!
i’m outta here…
July 31st, 2006 at 1:25 amgot the zakaria thread to 500… whew!
g’nite…
Actually if you look at them Israel with it’s large well financed Military would look like the Marine, and they won other bar fights, 1948..1967…1973..and have a very large and capable enabler in the US while the sailor would be Hezbollah which is smaller militarily and has expierence fighting bigger bullies in their own yard
July 31st, 2006 at 1:25 amJay B > the entire citizenry of Lebanon used those bridges too, of which over 60 of them are destroyed now > would you like our government to bomb your entire neighborhood, if a drug lord lived at the end of your street? Or since he might drive over a bridge near you it gets bombed to bits? Or since he uses the same electricity that you get from the same plant it gets bombed as well? When this is all over my prediction is that PM Olmert will lose his job, and become a total disgrace!
July 31st, 2006 at 1:29 amBecause none of the apologist trolls here have admitted Hezbollah did not exist UNTIL Israel invaded another country going after the PLO…and attempted to occupy the southern part of that country, the part where a large segment which makes up Hezbollah LIVE, and Israel had to retreat tactically because they could not defeat Hezbollah in Hezbollah own yard…that IS the reason they are very “gun shy” about returning to another occupation….
July 31st, 2006 at 1:29 amNotice how Hezbollah targets nothing but civilians in cities? Where is the outcry?
Because to complain about them would be rethorical and obvious. Yes they are terrorists, but Hizbollah are hardly killing anyone. Their pointless rockets are almost useless.
The Israelies on the other hand are no better than terrorists, and certainly war criminals. They have purposefully targeted civilians, and that is unacceptable. When will you think it enough? When 1000 civilians are dead, 100,000 a million? When the last person in Lebanon throws the last stone at an Isreali F-16, will it be over then?
Get a sense of perspective, the relative strength of parties, and the genuine risk to Israel. Weigh those factors up and an objective person can only conclude that this is murder.
War Crimes trials NOW. For Israel and Hizbollah.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:32 amThe democratically-elected government of one country sent its armed forces in to invade and overthrow the democratically-elected government of another country, while the most powerful democratically-elected government in the world sits with a bag of popcorn waiting for one of them to kill the other.
No one is winning the high ground in this.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:33 amHold the fort Brian > I am off to bed > hopefully there will be NO deaths to report in Lebanon today > one can hope anyways!
July 31st, 2006 at 1:38 am#91 It’s awful – and that’s the problem with terrorists who hide like cowards among civilian populations. It’s very difficult to pinpoint just them or their facilities. The best you can do is what Israel is doing – give warnings and try your best to target military targets. I understand why so many Lebanese are also outraged at Hezbollah for bringing them into a war they wanted no part of. But unless your message is that terrorists can hide in cities and thus become invulnerable to reprisals – then its a horrible consequence of terrorism.
#92 It’s kind of funny, I thought Israel’s claims at the time that they needed a buffer zone in Southern Lebanon from the terrorists was ridiculous. But now, Hezbollah has proven the point for them! And what happened when Israel left in 2000? The terrorism continued, even though they got the land back. They just moved closer in, to the new border. That is all the proof I needed of Hezbollah’s intentions and their status as a terrorist organization. But of course we all know the destruction of Israel is the real goal, and they will be the first to tell you that. It’s amazing the support they get around this board.
#93 tell the Israelis who have been wounded and killed the Katusha rockets are useless. And look at the Northern cities – many of them ghost towns with hundreds of rockets coming in every day – and tell me its useless.
Israel has “purposefully targeted civilians”. Wow, where did that come from?! Did you see the released footage today showing the Katusha rockets coming from the very spot Israel attacked? Did you miss Israel regularly warning people to leave prior to attacks? Did you notice Israel is targeting Hezbollah? You fall right into the PR trap that Hezbollah has set for all you. They know if Israel hits its target 99 times nobody cares, all that has to happen is they screw up 1 time and the world (and the people on boards like this) go nuts and call them murderers and terrorists and you name it. Hezbollah is smart in how they play this and you fell right into it as planned.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:42 amJay B do you think that after being occupied for 18 years.. by the Israelis who have not been proven to be overly kind when they occupy Arab territory, the Hezbollah should have thrown then a GOOD BYE party?
And do you think any other country would get US approval to occupy about one third of another country for 18 years just for security reasons…
occupy it because they refused to allow the children and grandchildren of those they took homes and territory from to have an EQUAL say in the country…
they claim to be the VICTUM…. give ME a break
they made their bed when they tried to push the Palestinians around since WW2…
they cry like the MARINE when they get pushed back
July 31st, 2006 at 1:50 amjay b — are you hoping that rupert murdock is reading this site?
you sound as if you’re auditioning for a job at FOX news.
you’re doing a splendid job of reading the script they’ve handed you.
but…can you think for yourself?
July 31st, 2006 at 1:53 am#97 tried to push the Palestinians around since WWII? Right. Maybe you forgot how the day Israel became a country every single one of its neighbors attacked it with hopes of deleting it from the map. Maybe you forgot the peace offer of 2000 Clinton worked on, where Israel painfully agreed to give almost everything, only to be turned down by the PA for more terrorism.
#98 Nice. When you can’t argue the facts, go to personal attacks. The funny thing is I think I’m the only one actually thinking for myself around here. The rest of this board did what far left boards always do – reflexively rally around the underdog terrorists and become apologists for them, right out of the talking points and playbook. I read this board every day and agree with 99% of all postings. I’ve never posted before because there is not much to say that hadn’t been said – its preaching to the choir. I’m a liberal Democrat who has campaigned for more Dems than I care to recount, and thinks Bush is the worst President in U.S. history. But I’m tired of us losing elections. And I’m tired of us falling into the GOP trap of siding with the terrorists, trying to turn them into the victims, that makes us so unable to win nationally. And personally, I don’t differentiate between the terrorists who attack me (Al Queda) and those who attack others. All terrorism is evil and has to be wiped out. No excuses. I agree with Israel that enough is enough of being attacked by terrorists on your border who admit they want to wipe you from the map. I’m just amazed that so many here don’t. But of course this is why we don’t win elections these days.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:03 amIsrael has “purposefully targeted civiliansâ€. Wow, where did that come from?!
They certainly are, as they targeted the UN posting. I think it terribly naive to beleive ootherwise. You are jumping through incredible hoops to maintain the Isrealies as the good guys but they clearly are not. This level of carnage does not happen by accident.
Did you see the released footage today showing the Katusha rockets coming from the very spot Israel attacked?
Yes. They are very bad people, who currently happen to be killing almost no one. Their primitive rockets, unguided and landing in the general area of Haifa are killing no one. Yet Israelis guided munitions, thoughtfully supplied by your government have killed roughly 500 civilians. Can we talk about the people who are actually being killed now?
Did you miss Israel regularly warning people to leave prior to attacks?
Yes. Warning people that you are going to shoot them, and then shooting them? This is the pinnacle of moral behaviour? There are no roads and no bridges. There is no food or gas available, and no where to go in any event. Plus the Israelis have frequently targeted vehicles.
Did you notice Israel is targeting Hezbollah? You fall right into the PR trap that Hezbollah has set for all you.
Yes I see that. They are targetting Hizbollah with utter disregard for civilians.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:04 am#93 tell the Israelis who have been wounded and killed the Katusha rockets are useless. And look at the Northern cities – many of them ghost towns with hundreds of rockets coming in every day – and tell me its useless.
Ah the fog of war. Aren’t you forgetting something critical here …. ? Pivotal to your point? Something about how when all out war kicks off then who did what to whom and when quickly gets lost in the mayhem?
Jay, innocent people are being killed, on both sides, but by orders of magnitude by the Israelies. You know I suspect, that they have destroyed Lebanon as an object lesson. You can’t admit that, because it’s a war crime, deeply objectionable and morally indefensible. Worse than that though, it does not and will not work.
Collective punishment does not work. It always makes the situation worse, unless you are prepared to either kill everyone, or occupy the country for a generation and do a brilliant job in the first decade. Short of these utopian circumstances, you will have intermittent terrorism.
Thus you must combat it by bolstering the forces of moderation and combating extremism both abroad and at home.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:13 amBut I’m tired of us losing elections. And I’m tired of us falling into the GOP trap of siding with the terrorists, trying to turn them into the victims, that makes us so unable to win nationally.
We, well certainly I, am not siding with the “terrorists” I’m siding with the innocents on both “sides”. Currently that happens, by a ratio of 10 to 1 to be Lebanese civilians, plus I don’t speak Arabic.
I’m doing what small part I can to point out the insanity of the situation. Roughly 50 million people died in WWII, and it “resolved” the problem. The solution you crave for the middle east will result in millions if not tens of millions of deaths. So I reject it.
I say work to eliminate terrorism, while having the courage and backbone to take the occasional terrorist hit … secure in the knowledge that a military solution simply cause more death and destruction.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:20 amRe: #99
facts?
yes, i can argue the facts. people, innocent women and children, on both sides are being murdered.
the only question should be, how can some semblance of sanity be restored to mankind?
you don’t stop violence by initiating more violence.
yesterday one of the talking heads on FOX made the following statement: “you can’t negotiate with people who want to kill you — YOU HAVE TO KILL THEM.”
if you can’t appreciate how flawed that logic is then i pity you. it’s reminescent of then defense secretary robert mc namara’s line during viet nam that “we will have peace in southeast asia if we have to kill everyone of them to accomplish it.”
with the clarity of hindsight we can see how far that logic got us.
gee, is history repeating itself…AGAIN?
July 31st, 2006 at 2:31 amI’m glad that someone else besides me gets it: “For Americans who care deeply about Israel, one of the truly nightmarish things about the war in Lebanon has been watching Israel repeat the same mistakes the United States made in Iraq.†Paul Krugman.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:32 am#100 I think its ridiculous to believe Israel targeted the U.N. building. How dumb could a country be? Why would you want to alienate all world opinion by killing U.N. troops? It makes zero sense unless you believe Israel wants to be hated. Maybe you missed the part where Canadian General Lewis Mackenzie stated that Hezbollah was using the U.N. Post, trying to shield themselves with U.N. forces. But of course you’d rather believe Israel did something that would have made absolutely zero sense. Nice,
Hate to break it to you but Israelis have been killed by the Katusha rockets. What station are you watching, where Israel wants to alienate the U.N. on purpose and no Israelis have been killed?
But how many Israelis died is not the issue. What country has to sit there and have rockets fired by a terrorist organization on its border on it? If “only” 20 people die is that cool with you? How about 500? What number is enough before you are allowed to fight back against terrorists?
Israel warns people to leave the area prior to a bombing. Don’t be so glib, it shows your bias and lack of understanding. That is far more than the terrorists do, and its stupid militarily because the terrorist know to hide too. But Israel is more concerned with getting innocent Lebanese to leave the area first.
No – it is not utter disregard. Thus the warnings. Thus the targeting of known Hezbollah buildings and positions. What Hezbollah does is utter disregard, launching rockets randomly into cities. Don’t confuse the terrorists with those who attack them back.
#102/103 – OK, so how do you “eliminate” terrorism without using force? I’d love to hear this one. What if the terrorist group – like say Hamas or Hezbollah – has as its goal your destruction as a state? What can you possibly offer them to get the terrorism to stop? Israel pulled out of Gaza – more terrorism. Israel offered the full Palestinian State in 2000 under Clinton – more terrorism and a rejection. They do not want a state – they want Israel destroyed. At some point you have to beat them militarily.
Did you suggest that the U.S. negotiate with Al Queda? Or did you want to destroy them after 9/11?
How do you negotiate with terrorists? And why would you?
July 31st, 2006 at 2:59 amRe: #105
we, in america, are so myopic. most of the people’s in the world go to bed hungry every night.
unless, and until, we can stop thinking like the pampered little pussies that we are and start to address some of the reasons that oppressed people around the world utilize terror as a tactic to draw attention to their plight there will never be peace.
i “just happened” to be born in america. i didn’t choose it. accordingly, as a child i swore an allegiance to the flag of the united states of america – it was required back then. at the age of 17 i enlisted in the army of the united states to defend my country against communist aggression – we had a draft back then, but i enlisted because i was patriotic and loved my country as i had been taught to do unquestioningly.
i subsequently went to war – a war that was based upon a lie. see: “gulf of tonkin.”
i came away from that experience somewhat jaded — cynical, you might say. i began to question things.
today, i no longer think of myself as an american but rather as a human being who happens to reside on this planet they call earth. i attempt to think in terms of what might benefit all mankind, not just those who align themselves with a particular country — an arbitrary geographical boundary.
we, the human race, are currently engaged in not only killing one another but also the very planet upon which we reside.
i subscribe to the notion that peace has to start somewhere — let it start with me. so, in answer to the question, “how would i deal with a terrorist?” i would attempt to address that terrorist’s needs — what can i do to ease your suffering? i would listen to their demands — i would give them a voice and an opportunity to be heard.
i would also, as i currently attempt to do, lead the type of life that i would hope other’s might lead.
“You must be the change that you wish to see in the world.” Ghandi
July 31st, 2006 at 3:27 am#100 I think its ridiculous to believe Israel targeted the U.N. building. How dumb could a country be?
Really? Is it all that dumb? For a start ,50% of the citizens of the nation state that ships them their weapons dismiss the idea out of hand. Clearly, they expect to get away with it.
Hate to break it to you but Israelis have been killed by the Katusha rockets. What station are you watching, where Israel wants to alienate the U.N. on purpose and no Israelis have been killed?
Come now be reasonable, something like 50 Isrealies have been liked, half of those military. Contrast this with 500+ innocent Lebanese civilians. Besdies, deaths on both sides are utterly pointless and simply swell the ranks of extremists everywhere.
If “only†20 people die is that cool with you? How about 500? What number is enough before you are allowed to fight back against terrorists?
This is not a bad question, but you have phrased it incorrectly. First off, one should always fight terrorists. This is a given. However, it is a fatal error to reacte militarily and kill hundreds of civilians. The example of Ireland/Britian and 3 decades of intermittent terrorism spring to mind. They blew it a few times, and each time the terrorism flared up, worse than before.
When terrorism represents an existential threat, when it threatens your existence then it’s no longer terrorism, but war. Then all bets are off. That is not what we have here. We have clear cut terrorism, which Israel in co-operation with Lebanon, should work to undermine and sideline.
How do you negotiate with terrorists? And why would you?
Comment by Jay B — July 31, 2006 @ 2:59 am
You need look no further then the British/Irish conflict, remember the IRA actually killed members of the British government and very nearly killed Margreat Thatcher herself by bombing the hotel the cabinet were staying in. That Jay, is restraint, and Maggie was no shrinking violet. It takes time, decades, there are ups there are downs. However in the 30 years of IRA terrorism (Ireland has roughly the population of Lebanon), some 3000 innocent people died violently.
In this “spat”, if we ignore the all the deaths before, the current conflict is within a few hundred of 1000 innocent deaths. After 2 weeks. Thats the difference Jay. There is no panacea, no easy solution, I’m sorry to have to disappoint you in that regard:-( Except to say that war, unless it is going to be genocidal all out war to kill millions, will never resolve these kinds of issues, and will invariably make things worse.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:32 am#99;
#97 tried to push the Palestinians around since WWII? Right. Maybe you forgot how the day Israel became a country every single one of its neighbors attacked it with hopes of deleting it from the map.
the rest of the arab world , Egypt, Syria, Jordan are NOT thge Palistinians…you seem to be unable to distincguish between countries which Isreal has made peace with….and people who lost thier homeland..which were without a country until the west bank and Gaza strip was offered to them, and them Israel does not allow them real freedom, but builds walls..and checkpoints in territory which they do not actually OWN.
you try so hard to MAKE it all the muslims fault and try to make Israel the poor victum , which the real history does not support, only your cherry picked version
July 31st, 2006 at 3:32 amDick Cheney and Benjamin Netanyahu met in a secret meeting last month in Aspen to stage these hostilities with Hezbollah. This is just like the days before the US attacked Iraq, and Bush plotted with Tony Blair to fly a spy plane over Iraq disguised as a UN plane to get Hussein to fire on it and justify a war. These are the opening salvos for the US war on Iran and Syria.
Israel has been staging manuveurs on and over the border to Lebanon, to provoke a response from Hizbolah.
Anybody who thinks that military force is the answer, ask yourself what you would do if you were a Palestinian who lives like a veritable prisoner with no future in occupied territory. All that Bush’s bullying does is make people angrier and resolved.
Neocons who dreamt up this scheme of American empire are really sick bastards who should be in long term therapy, and nowhere near the reins of power.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:59 amAt what point in time did BushCo come to the conclusion that they have unlimited power, in both the U.S., and the rest of the world? They seem to believe that what they say goes, to the point of ignoring any and all objections to their actions, while insisting that what they say MUST be obeyed, and anyone who disagrees with them is automatically said to have terrorist ties of some sort, and therefore, represent a ‘threat’ to ‘freedom lovers’ everywhere. And why does the rest of the world tolerate their CRAP? Probably because BushCo would just add them to the ‘gotta attack em” list, and that has too many names on it as it is. Damnit! They are really pissing me off. I fail to see how egging on violence between Israel and Lebanon does anything to ‘keep us safe’. And in Seattle we have 5 women gunned down, all Jewish, by a man claiming to be a Muslim, upset with what BushCo is doing in the Middle East. One of the women died, and 3 others are in critical condition. Perhaps we can ask them for their opinion about BushCo’s choice of how to solve the ‘root problem’. Oh forget it. They are only interested in WAR, WAR, WAR, and will do all they can to provoke it.
July 31st, 2006 at 6:49 amIt’s always cool when journalists come to the same conclusions as you. To wit: “For Americans who care deeply about Israel, one of the truly nightmarish things about the war in Lebanon has been watching Israel repeat the same mistakes the United States made in Iraq.†Paul Krugman.
A mini Asscoiwns of the Week will follow later tonight.
July 31st, 2006 at 6:53 amWell, well, well, what do you know. Israel has already gone back on their 48 hour cease-fire, but they have an excuse, of course. They aren’t targeting anyone, they are just ‘protecting’ their troops, the ones invading Lebanon in the southern area. Poor Israel, always the ‘victim’, never the ‘victimizer’. And now we learn that BushCo has approved the sale of 4.6 BILLION worth of ‘arms’ to some Arab countries, like Saudi Arabia and the U.A.E.. But they are our ‘friends’, they don’t support any mean old terrorists, now do they?
July 31st, 2006 at 7:35 amWell, well, well, what do you know. Israel has already gone back on their 48 hour cease-fire….
Comment by Cyra Brown
I notice Hezbollah didn’t offer a ceasefire or offer to meet them half way. Wonder why.
July 31st, 2006 at 8:50 amI notice Hezbollah didn’t offer a ceasefire or offer to meet them half way. Wonder why.
Comment by Joe Sixpack — July 31, 2006 @ 8:50 am
Joe, they are terrorists. You get that right? They are using the innocent civilians of Lebanon as hostages, but we (the civilised west) don’t, like Jack Bauer, simply shoot through the hostages to kill the bad guy shrug our shoulders make a pained face to express our emotional turmoil, and move on.
Or at least I won’t endorse it. You have seen one too many episodes of 24. This is not fiction, these are real people on both sides. Killing civilians will not bring the Israelies a wit closer to peace.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:15 amIn post #61 I said that the ceasefire was symbolic. It now turns out to be less than symbolic. What this appears to be was a desire by the US State Department for a ceasefire. Did Israel go behind Rice’s back and get the green light from Cheney to continue the bombing? That would be my guess.
July 31st, 2006 at 11:53 amListen to you fools! You appeasers would let your own children be rapped in front of you and then blame it on them.
July 31st, 2006 at 1:32 pmListen to you fools! You appeasers would let your own children be rapped in front of you and then blame it on them.
Comment by Cheeks — July 31, 2006 @ 1:32 pm
I’m not sure why you exhibit such rage for, but just recently Israeli bombs (probably made in the US) killed some 50 women and children. If you were in that situation, with your obvious deep seated rage and anger, if some of the victims were relatives of yours, what would you want to do to the Isrealies, and maybe even the Americans?
I’m hazarding you’d want to kill someone, and yet, you’d still be wrong:-( Violence, breeds more violence until such time as one side kills everyone on the other side. If you don’t favour a “final solution” then you’ll need to try something else.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:47 pmif you put a short little black moustache on ehud olmert he looks just like hitler
July 31st, 2006 at 5:18 pmThat building and victims you refer to was still standing 8 hours after the attack. Read up. You won’t even consider for one second that Hez might have played a role in this. They probably brought in these bodies after killing them themselves and placed them around the collapsed building. I wouldn’t put it past them to do this. Why weren’t any of these bodies found in the rumble? In my estimation they are playing the world media and their propoganda will go a long way in making Israel out to be the bad guy.
My previous post was for shock purposes. You appeasers will never understand that you can not negociate with terrorists. They don’t fight under the rules of war. They hide within the populations, they don’t wear uniforms and they target civilians. You can’t tell me with a straight face that Israel is targeting civilians. That argument doesn’t hold water.
July 31st, 2006 at 6:15 pmCome to think of it, all the pictures are of the dead on top of the rubble or coming out of cave like spaces; none of the people seem to have been buried.
Reminds me of the stunt Lybia pulled in the 80’s, where they loaded up a commercial jet with cadavers and sent it on a kamikaze run at a US battleship.
Anyone have any pictures of people being dug out?
Comments by Mircat on http://www.exposetheleft.com
July 31st, 2006 at 6:21 pmFor those of you who have forgotten what this country and others are fighting against, perhaps this will remind you. These radicals Islamofacists showed what they are all about. Watch if you have the guts and don’t tell me that the vision of any Islamofacists group is one of peace. There’ll be peace once they are distroyed completely.
http://www.olivetreeviews.org/topics/movies/attack.html
July 31st, 2006 at 6:47 pmaS A NATIVE LEBANESE NOW LIVING IN NEW ZEALAND, YOU WOULD THINK I WOULD SUPPORT hEZBOLA BUT IN FACT MY FAMILY SAID THEY ARE MAKING WOMAN AND CHILDREN STAY IN TARGET AREA’S AS MARTYRS. THEY ACTUALLY DONT HAVE ANY CHOICE.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:03 pmITS A SICK FIGHT. I WOULD NOT BELIEVE EVERYTHING YOU HEAR ABOUT HEZBOLLA , THEY ARE RUTHLESS COWARDS. THEY ARE ONLY INTERESTED IN THEMSELVES. THE ISLAM SIDE OF THEM IS UNPREDICTABLE AND I DNT TRUST THEM FOR ONE MINUTE.
THEY KILLED MY FAMILY.