Hagel: The Iraq War Is ‘An Absolute Replay Of Vietnam’
Hagel: The Iraq War Is ‘An Absolute Replay Of Vietnam’
Four months ago, Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) described the conditions in Iraq as a “low grade civil war.” Today, his view is much more bleak. In an interview with the Omaha World Herald, the Vietnam War veteran said that the country had descended into “absolute anarchy” and the war was “an absolute replay of Vietnam.”
Hagel also blasted the Pentagon’s plan to send 5,000 additional U.S. troops to Iraq, saying the move was opposed by several four-star generals:
[Hagel] said that in the previous 48 hours, he had received three telephone calls from four-star generals who were “beside themselves” over the Pentagon’s reversal of plans to bring tens of thousands of soldiers home this fall.
Instead, top Pentagon officials are suspending military rotations and adding troops in Iraq. The Pentagon has estimated that the buildup will increase the number of U.S. troops from about 130,000 to 135,000.
“That isn’t going to do any good. It’s going to have a worse effect,” Hagel said. “They’re destroying the United States Army.“
Hagel — unlike Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) — understands that “staying the course” in Iraq isn’t an option.
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maybe Hagel could talk to Holy Joe.
Once again, Agitprop presents ourLieberman 2 Minute Daily Hate.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:33 pmSen. Hagel always talks big, but he never seems to do anything more about it?!
July 31st, 2006 at 2:34 pmI think you all missed the headline. Its incredible that Hagel actually said, “They’re destroying the United States Army.” That is quite a serious charge and, shockingly, it appears to be true.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:35 pmI agree Jay - this dog’s all bark so far.
I just wonder how bad it can actually get before we pull our troops out. Even then, I’m concerned they’ll just be set up for an invasion or Iran or Syria.
Our only real hope is to take back both the House and Senate in November.
Impeach. ASAP. Please!
July 31st, 2006 at 2:37 pmActions are more important than words, so what does Hagel propose for Iraq? Stay the course or pull the troops out? If the troops are pulled out, then when would that occur? End of this year, or end of 2007, or end of 2008, or end of Hillary Clinton’s 2 presidential terms in 2016?
July 31st, 2006 at 2:39 pm“Hagel — unlike Senate Majority Leader Bill Frist (R-TN) — understands that “staying the course†in Iraq isn’t an option.”
On the contrary - Hagel, unlike Frist, understands what he needs to say to help get him re-elected. It has nothing to do with actually feeling this way.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:40 pmHagel, much like Spector has spoken out before,only to cave in to Bush later. I will believe it when he actually does something. Talk is cheap.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:40 pmThe only thing that’s left in this war is the killing.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:42 pmYes Dr.Sinker > I always hear Hagel saying this or that, then we hear that Karl Rove calls him up, and Hagel is back to kissing Bush’s ass the next day! The Iraq occupation is a fiasco, but nobody in the Congress seems to have enough guts to tell Bush that all funds will be cut off, so the politicians just ring their hands and do nothing!
July 31st, 2006 at 2:44 pmMaybe Hagel could do something besides talk.
He sait this @#$^#@#((%^^ a million timea and nothing has changed.
Hey Chuck, DO SOMETHING!
July 31st, 2006 at 2:45 pmsorry, fury leads to bad spelling……………and I forgot:
When they smear the Dems and call Murtha a coward, Chuck, what will you do?!?!?!?!?
July 31st, 2006 at 2:46 pmI always hear Hagel saying this or that, then we hear that Karl Rove calls him up, and Hagel is back to kissing Bush’s ass the next day!
Comment by Jay Randal
You are so right on this, Jay. Great point. You could almost like the guy, it it wasn’t for the kneeling at the king’s feet.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:49 pmWring not ring > lol. Repubs and Dems in the Senate upset me today!
July 31st, 2006 at 2:49 pmHe’ll do nothing. Nothing doesn’t get thrown back in your face at election time.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:50 pmToo bad, because he seems to have a grasp of reality that is sorely missing from the resy of his party.
Every day they all upset me Jay!
July 31st, 2006 at 2:51 pmDon’t let them disrupt your spelling… then you’ll come off as ignorant as they do!
Ho-hum,
When Condi gets this all sorted out in a week or two, hysterical women like Hagel will look foolish, and forfeit any chance they had to make a run for the Presidency.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:52 pmYes Joe I am tired of Hagel basically saying one thing, and then turning around to kiss Bush’s butt! Lieberman does it daily, even Biden at times > about 3/4 of the entire Senate does it!
July 31st, 2006 at 2:53 pmC’mon guys,Mel Gibson is much more important than the depletion of our military…jeez.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:53 pm“When Condi gets this all sorted out in a week or two”
If you’re referring to Ms. Rice, her performance thusfar suggests she isn’t capable of sorting out her sock drawer, much less a fiery conflict that the rest of her administration is in the habit of pouring gasoline on.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:54 pmWhen Condi gets this all sorted out in a week or two
LOL That cool aide sure plays havoc on your dreams.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:55 pm20— yeah I agree, Jason is showing seious signs of koolaide overdose
July 31st, 2006 at 2:56 pmhahahaha
Sen. Ted Kennedy yesterday claimed that he is shocked that Alito and Roberts have acted like far-right thugs in the Supreme Court, but what the hell did he expect from them anyways? He said they promised to be impartial centrists > lol.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:56 pmwhoever referred JMH as ted bundy yesterday, that is exactly who I envision when I come across his posts.
July 31st, 2006 at 2:58 pmI think it’s high time to put the ignore slam on this Hendler bozo. There’s not much point debating someone with a room-temperature IQ.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:00 pmC’mon guys,Mel Gibson is much more important than the depletion of our military…jeez.
Seriously … and have they found Natalee Holloway yet? I need another hour and a half on MSNBC on that …
July 31st, 2006 at 3:03 pm“When Condi gets this all sorted out in a week or twoâ€
I would like to know what she will sort out. Her piano recital gigs, her shoes, dinner reservations for Bandar, Bushies bed time stories? Which one?
July 31st, 2006 at 3:05 pmwow, GOPpers turning on their own. Guess i missed the memo. Times must be bad for cannibals to start come out.
amazing how the Republicans just screw everything up. Like a slow moving hurricane.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:05 pmA weakened army is less capable of invading more countries, and that’s a good thing.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:11 pmWe are definately looking for 30,000 more to stick in south Lebanon so we can provoke a war with Iran. Once we get the WWW going we can get the draft up. The “Clean Break” plan basically says we are going to rule this place like the Ottoman’s did. We are going for broke - watch us.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:13 pmMy question is, when has Hagel ever broken with Bush on a vote other than a no brainer like stem cells? Anybody know?
July 31st, 2006 at 3:15 pmFor Rice to fix anything would require her to have a spine. She turned around and left the Middle East when a bomb blew up a bunch of women and children.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:16 pmPost 30 > Hagel seems to always buckle under in doing anything that Bush desires! Like I said Rove will call him up tonight and Chuck will be back to Bush licking again!
July 31st, 2006 at 3:19 pm#32 - true, and even if he’s voted against, a lot of them wil do that when they need to make a point with the electorate but are sure the bill will pass otherwise.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:22 pmLebanon is burning and Condi retreats. Spineless resolve and lack of humanity. That about sums it up for the Bushbots.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:24 pmYou know that old game, Where Were You When–. Here’s how it goes with our “leaders:
Where were you when 9/11 happened? Reading about goats to 2nd graders
Where were you when Katrina happened? Playing the guitar in California
Where were you when questions were asked after the Blair/Bush press conference? Having a phot-op with American Idol
Where were you when Qana happened? Playing T-ball on the South Lawn.
Besides her shoe-shopping, she couldn’t continue negotiating between Lebanon and Isreal because she had to give a recital at the ASEAN (sp?) conference.
C’mon guys, where are our leaders when we need them? AWOL
July 31st, 2006 at 3:36 pmHey Hagel getting pretty worried about midterm elections, time to come out looking like you were never a GW puppet? Where the hell were you 4 years ago when top generals, secretaries, GAO officials, and CIA said DON’T GO INTO IRAQ! My heart doesn’t bleed for you, you coniving liar - it bleeds for the people you are killed everyday.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:38 pm#23 - madashell,
July 31st, 2006 at 3:42 pmWhen I read JMH posts, I think more of a rendition of “Tiptoe Through the Tulips” - totally ridiculous! I wonder if he has a uke.
it is funny, bones \no pun intended\
while hagel and some distance themselves, the shays’ of the world, worried about not being ‘republican enough’ are moving towards him!
when was the last honest politician? and don’t say abe…
July 31st, 2006 at 3:44 pmIraq is already a failed state. No amount of spin can say it is otherwise. Putting more US troops will only result in more US troops dying. We should have sent the level of troops recommended by Gen. Shinseki. It’s over now.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:44 pmHagel has always been a watercarrier for Bush and Co.
July 31st, 2006 at 3:58 pmHagel isn’t any different than Blair, that English lap dog.
At least in Viet Nam Bush had an exit strategy.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:10 pmThe time for just saying things is over. We need action in Iraq very soon. With the “violence” (war) in Lebanon we stand a chance of setting off a Shia conflict against the US and Israel that could leave all of the troops in Iraq at the end of a very long supply line that stretches through Shia country from Kuwait to Bagdad. Even with our technical advantage they are armed and have us totally outnumbered. Iran is pulling the strings and Bushco is jumping to the tune. 135,000 troops cut off without support on the ground could be devastating. We could give them air support of course but evacuation of a force that large is impossible with the last troops out getting cut to ribbons. How will Cheney/Rumsfeld/bush respond to that situation. We really need to get congress moving while we have time and get this thing under control. This is not a partisan problem this is an American problem and Americans need to speak up.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:20 pmBush as a recovering alcoholic is still a risk taker. The Jerusalem Post is reporting that the Americans are indicating an interest in striking Syria. that would require Iran to honor it’s treaty with Syria. WWW111 and the rapture, here we come. To understand the Cheney/Bush thinking I recommend, the One Percent Doctrine by Suskind. It is scary.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:36 pmIn response to Blogenfreude (comment #30), it’s worth noting that Hagel did not break with President Bush on funding for stem cell research. Maybe that one was too much of a “no brainer” for him.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:41 pmTo Jason Hendler who wrote: “When Condi gets this all sorted out in a week or two, hysterical women like Hagel will look foolish, and forfeit any chance they had to make a run for the Presidency.”
Don’t hold your breath. Rice isn’t working on Iraq. She’s working on the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict. Rumsfeld has Iraq, but he doesn’t know what to do with it. Both he and Rice are in over their heads following inept foreign policy engineered by Cheney, a guy who avoided combat through multiple deferals. SNAFU.
Also, getting down on Hagel by calling him an “hysterical women” is pretty ignorant. I’ve seen men and women in stressful and even life threatening situations. From my observations, I’d say hysteria is an equal-opportunity emotion, but the women recovered faster.
At any rate, Hagel doesn’t sound hysterical, just pissed off. If he’s trying to win votes by pretending, fine. At least he’s finally telling the truth. I don’t think it hurts his chances any more than his usual politics. If looking foolish really forfeited a guy’s chance to run for presidency, we wouldn’t be in the mess we’re in today.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:42 pmAttn: All you Bozos out there. EEIRAQ is doing just fine(3 years and 200 billion dollars later we still cant prounance the name of the country properly). Donny Rumsfeld is doing hecka’ of a job. Condy is doing all she can( by having piano concerts- aint she great) and according to my VP the Insurgancy is in its last theros. I am thankful to FOX for providing those wonderful idols.In the evenings i love watching em while having some pretzels. Man this EEIRAQ adventure has the makings of a fine Hollywood epiq starring General…………sorry King George VS the humanity. Long live the Disunited republic of NEOCONS.
July 31st, 2006 at 4:47 pmHaven’e we learned anything from these idiots in the US Congress. They said any thing to get re-elected. Too bad the republicans continue to make bad policies and the democrats have no “cojones” left to fight them. We are just wasting our time!
July 31st, 2006 at 4:54 pmIs that stuffed Portabello Mushroom cloud with bread crumbs or?
July 31st, 2006 at 5:03 pmits time everyone stops posting comments and buying bumper stickers and get up and fight our regime
July 31st, 2006 at 5:09 pmBig difference: In Vietnam, our troops had to get out of their tanks, and armored vehicles, and were not virtually immune from small arm fire/high powered rifles (i.e. protected from head to toe by Kevlar).
If that was the case today, this war would have been over a long time ago. I have friends who have volunteered for second and third stints in Iraq for the insane amounts of money that they are receiving. Some of them, are returning to purchases homes with straight cash!
Those who served, and VOLUNTEERED to serve in Vietnam performed a far more courageous act in my opinion, because their chances of dying were far far greater (Why do you think Dubya Bush volunteered for the National Gaurd), and their financial gain was far less!
Please stop comparing Vietnam to Iraq.
July 31st, 2006 at 5:21 pm“But it would be an insult to the soldiers who have died and who want to finish the job!!!” They shield themselves with our soldiers loyalty to their duties as a reason to continue a failed policy. A little like a devorced parent uses their kid to try and save a failed relationship. Our troops are the innocent children in the middle and the Republicans are the cheating spuose using them to try to earn back the love of the public for their own political stranglehold.
July 31st, 2006 at 5:43 pmBush’s rosy assessment of Iraq and the idea that 5,000 troops shifted to Baghdad will solve the problem: delusion or hypocrisy?
And which would be worse. Delusion? Hitler took down a superpower with his delusions. Hypocrisy? Then we are dealing with a criminal who doesn’t care who he sacrifices to get what he wants.
Oedipus Bush is becoming a dangerous man. Who’s to stop him?
July 31st, 2006 at 5:44 pmFor Hagel and others, I suggest that the correct response be a version of “trust but verify”. Praise his words and criticize the daylights out of him if his actions don’t match the rhetoric. I wish a journalist would ask him if he had any plans to offer a resolution in the Senate to withdraw troops.
July 31st, 2006 at 5:54 pmBush made a simple mistake. He came into office and thought we are the last superpower on earth, we have the biggest and strongest military on the planet. So he decided to “play” bully. That’s great but usually the bully beats up the biggest guy in school then rests on reputation to keep everyone scared. Bush decided to take on everyone in school all at once. We are stationed in Germany, Italy, Iceland, South Korea, Iraq, Afghanistan, Guam, and dozens of other places. The bully protective rep fails when all the other kids see you lose a fight, repeatedly. Then no one is afraid of the bully and as a matter of fact the rest of the kids gangup on the bully and let out their pent up anger.
July 31st, 2006 at 5:59 pm#59 Rick:“it would be an insult to the soldiers who died”
July 31st, 2006 at 6:24 pmThought I’d pass this along to all of you culturally sensitive and morally superior progs:
A lady liberal wrote a lot of letters to the White House complaining about the treatment of a captive insurgent (terrorist) being held in Guantanamo Bay.
She received the following reply:
The White House
1600 Pennsylvania Avenue
Washington, D.C. 20016
Dear Concerned Citizen,
Thank you for your recent letter roundly criticizing our treatment of the Taliban and Al Quada detainees currently being held at Guantanamo Bay, Cuba.
Our administration takes these matters seriously and your opinion was heard loud and clear here in Washington.
You’ll be pleased to learn that, thanks to the concerns of citizens like yourself, we are creating a new division of the Terrorist Retraining Program, to be called the “Liberals Accept Responsibility for Killers” program, or LARK for short.
In accordance with the guidelines of this new program, we have decided to place one terrorist under your personal care.
Your personal detainee has been selected and scheduled for transportation under heavily armed guard to your residence next Monday.
Ali Mohammed Ahmed bin Mahmud (you can just call him Ahmed) is to be cared for pursuant to the standards you personally demanded in your letter of complaint. It will likely be necessary for you to hire some assistant caretakers.
We will conduct weekly inspections to ensure that your standards of care for Ahmed are commensurate with those you so strongly recommended in your letter.
Although Ahmed is a sociopath and extremely violent, we hope that your sensitivity to what you described as his “attitudinal problem” will help him overcome these character flaws.
Perhaps you are correct in describing these problems as mere cultural differences. We understand that you plan to offer counseling and home schooling.
Your adopted terrorist is extremely proficient in hand-to-hand combat and can extinguish human life with such simple items as a pencil or nail clippers. We advise that you do not ask him to demonstrate these skills at your next yoga group. He is also expert at making a wide variety of explosive devices from common household products, so you may wish to keep those items locked up, unless (in your opinion) this might offend him.
Ahmed will not wish to interact with you or your daughters (except sexually) since he views females as a subhuman form of property. This is a particularly sensitive subject for him and he has been known to show violent tendencies around women who fail to comply with the new dress code that he will recommend as more appropriate attire.
I’m sure you will come to enjoy the anonymity offered by the burka — over time.
Just remember that it is all part of “respecting his culture and his religious beliefs” — wasn’t that how you put it?
Thanks again for your letter. We truly appreciate it when folks like you keep us informed of the proper way to do our job. You take good care of Ahmed - and remember … we’ll be watching.
Good luck!
July 31st, 2006 at 6:29 pmCordially, your friend,
Don Rumsfeld
#
A weakened army is less capable of invading more countries, and that’s a good thing.
Comment by Don — July 31, 2006 @ 3:11 pm
I have always been against the Iraq war, and certainly the current proxy war that the U.S. is fighting by encouraging Israel to do the “heavy lifting” (which is more likely than not to turn into a major war in the Mideast), It’s not a strong army that invades countries on their own…but any administration that puts our troops in harm’s way in wars of choice. By doing so, they ultimately are unable to defend this country (and we citizens) if we WERE in a (truly) self-defensive war.
July 31st, 2006 at 6:37 pmGood Morning Iraq,lebanon,Iran,Syria, Afganistan and the future warfields. This is Donny Rumsfeld coming live to you from the bowls of Pentagon. How about them skins. Did ya catch the game last night. Man they gave a mighty whooping to the cowboys . Any ways hope you all having fun in King Georg’s war on terror catching the bad guys. Listen drop me a line or two if you soldiers need any thing, like kevlar helmet or a bomb proof hummer. I will see what I can hustle up. I promise, but will have to see if these democrats will let the war bill go thru th econgress and let us steal couple of hundred billions more and send to you. March on. signing out
July 31st, 2006 at 6:47 pmIt’s quite simple, really. The cabal, i.e., Cheney, Rumsfield, et al, is stocking up on American youth in Iraq by disallowing any additional rotations out as well as the addition of troops from elsewhere in the world. They are being proactive. They are preparing for military action against Syria and/or Iran. The IDF is merely setting the stage for additional conflicts in the Middle East.
July 31st, 2006 at 6:57 pmIs this so they can lose it again 4 years?
Marty
July 31st, 2006 at 7:02 pmBluedog49
“Mighty a-hole: the obfuscation machine”
Is that all your frog mind could come up with?
Heard that, knew that. G’mme something new to wonder about
July 31st, 2006 at 7:14 pmBluePuP - You could benefit from a sense of humour - I laugh at you guys all the time….
July 31st, 2006 at 7:14 pmHello mighty aphrodite
Good to c u.
July 31st, 2006 at 7:17 pmOn the subject
Frogs:
Pay attention - there is a freedom of opinion in Republican Party unlike in the party of their opposition.
In a similar circumstance the Democratic Party is very strict - if one would just bother to observe.
July 31st, 2006 at 7:33 pm#2 - I agree. Either via carrot, or stick, Repubs such as Hagel, Specter, Voinovich and poor tortued Chafee make a big noise and step one foot off the plantation, but soon get back to being reliable stoldiers when it really counts. So Chuck, you make a lot of sense with the tough talk - now put up or shut up.
July 31st, 2006 at 7:45 pmBluedog49
“I thought one of the standard republican talking points about Demcrats is that they can’t agree on anything.”
Could they?
July 31st, 2006 at 8:00 pmHagel’s conservative, so I don’t agree with a lot of what he believes. But I do respect him, which is more than I can say for Lieberman and McCain.
And I don’t believe he’s doing this for political reasons.
First, I don’t think dissing Bush or the war will get him a lot of political points in Nebraska. Second, I don’t think it will earn him many points within the Republican party for a future presidential run. In fact, it will probably kill what little chance he had.
He’s as tied into the military as Murtha is, and they both hear the truth from the Generals and feel compelled to speak out on it.
Sorry, but there are enough crooks in the Republican party to shoot at. We don’t need to shoot at probably the only honorable one left.
July 31st, 2006 at 8:02 pmBluedog49
“I don’t remember…”
That’s OK.
I hope you remember what dems did to Senator Lieberman in the glorious times of Monica.
Also, I hope you remember what dems are doing to Senator Lieberman now.
July 31st, 2006 at 8:04 pmBush is unable to back off. His pride is at stake and is more important than hundreds of GI lives… He and Rummy and Rove and Cheny all need to resign.
July 31st, 2006 at 8:05 pmBluedog49
“I thought one of the standard republican talking points about Demcrats is that they can’t agree on anything.â€
Could they?
That was not a rhetorical question as you might have thought.
They could not all the way up until they are being ordered.
July 31st, 2006 at 8:06 pm“Hello mighty aphrodite Good to c u.” Comment by One Jew
*****Dear OJ - I hope all is well with my favourite mensch… The inmates who run this asylum said they REALLY do appreciate our visits - it lessens the monotony….
Be well….
July 31st, 2006 at 8:17 pmyou are a stinking, putred, worthless wench, tripey.
you should know by now that many of the detainees at gitmo had nothing to do with al qaeda or the taleban, and many have not been formally charged with any crime.
you don’t even know what al qaeda really is, you ignorant harpy. no, you are a mindless sheep that is all too happy to let your government, that you trust so much to tell you the truth, feed you lies about the true nature of terror today. even the name “al qaeda” is one of our own making.
the fact is, british and americans searching in afghanistan for those famous al qaeda “mountain fortress caverns” we heard so much about, found nothing of the sort. al qaeda is nothing more than a small business administration for terrorists. osama never had the plans, he just had the money, and an idea. so yes, groups would visit him in afghanistan, but it was because they already had plans they wanted to enact before they had anything to do with him. this “international terror network” is nothing more than a neoconservative fantasy, constructed to make frightened fools out of assfaces like yourself.
you can respond all with all of your normal smarmy, immature baby talk you want, but unless you can explain why, 5 years after the fact, we still don’t have osama, we still claim al qaeda as our #1 threat, yet we are instead for some reason still acting like being in iraq is doing anything to do away with that threat, you are wasting your time.
being the idiot you are, you defend the indefensible, you are now in a sad minority of people that believe the administration is competent on ANY level, and in reality you appear to be cheering on the destruction of the united states army and the middle east along with it. because of this colossal mess gets any worse, our army in iraq are going to be pinned in the middle of the worst sectarian violence we’ve seen in more than a generation.
and worse, our actions now are guaranteeing that we will be hated in that region for the next generation as well. but hey. go ahead and tell me we need to “fight them over there.”
why? because they might set off a dirty bomb in america?
guess what- that’s another lie! dirty bombs have already been proven, by our own department of energy, to be ineffective. tests proved that even those subjected to the highest levels of radiation that a dirty bomb could achieve were not likely to die, because the radiate dust particles would disperse too easily. in fact, the only likelihood of death from dirty bomb radiation is if you were continuously subjected to it for a year!
wow! i’m totally shocked! the administration lied to us again.
July 31st, 2006 at 8:30 pmgo ahead and believe the lies, tripey, the administration still needs monumental idiots like yourself. otherwise they’d have no support at all. live in fear and continue to vote republican.
mighty aphrodite - thanks for sharing the ridiculous letter; too absurd even for Rumsfeld. It was full of the typical cliches one expects from the right-wing bigoted echo chamber. Basically it tells liberals they deserve rape and violence for daring to demand that the U.S. follow its own rules. Classy.
You and many bloggers here keep showing us how screwed up things have gotten. Everything changed on September 11 — the day we lost our nerve and our ability to tell right from wrong. We’ve got half the country so afraid of terrorism that they capitulate:
- to being spied on,
- to giving up basic civil rights,
- to having their president lie to them,
- to destabilizing foreign countries,
- to trading soldiers for oil,
- to creating loopholes in morality,
- to imprisoning people never charged with a crime, and
- to torture
Think about that last comment. I’m not talking about Abu Graib. We have a president who created a loophole through an unconstitutional signing statement to a bill banning torture - a bill sponsored by a member of his own political party. We’re sending U.S. soldiers out there with that legacy.
I don’t expect terrorists to adhere to the Geneva convention. I live in a reality-based world. But, what’s the point of fighting to promote a democracy we keep breaching? It’s working against us. You can’t fight the ideology of terrorism without proving you offer a better alternative. All we’ve proven is that we’re a bunch of hypocritical nation builders.
Listen I really do wish I could believe Bush is doing it right. I really do. It would be so much easier to suspend reality, but someone’s got to mind the store.
July 31st, 2006 at 8:32 pmDear Mr./Ms Madison - Thank you for taing the time to share your thoughts. I will take the time to address your talking points, again….
“Everything changed on September 11 — the day we lost our nerve and our ability to tell right from wrong. We’ve got half the country so afraid of terrorism that they capitulate:
(talking point #1) - to being spied on,”
******You’re not that interesting - but you have nothing to worry about as long as you can account for the legitimate transfers of large sums of money in and out of the country and you limit you telephone calls tio your terrorist friends.
(talking point #2) - “to giving up basic civil rights”
******* As a classical liberal I do not wish for a relinquishment of civil rights. Please be more specific and enumerate which of your civil rights (or those of friends and family) have been revoked.
(talking point #3) - - “to having their president lie to them,”
******You should be quite used to this considering the previous adminisration. Do you imply that our entering the war in Iraq was due to a lie? If so, you have a retention problem as I have offered several explanation that a lie MUST be known to be untrue to be a lie. Otherwise, it is a mistake. (Intention is the key…and since it is obvious you despise this President - I doubt you would agree with AYTHING he would or could do.)
(talking point #4)- to destabilizing foreign countries,
******* Are you referring to Iraq??? As lousy as the conditions are in Iraq, Iraq was previously quite a secular country with an excellent rate of educated men and women. I suppose totalitarian regimes are just fiiiiine with you…..
(talking point #5) - to trading soldiers for oil,
********We buy the oil, which is a vital national interest at this time in history.
(tp #6 ) - to creating loopholes in morality,
*******Oh please….you appear to be the LAST person (besides Ted the Swimmer) who should lesture ANYONE, given your moral relativism….
(tp#7) - to imprisoning people never charged with a crime, and - to torture
*******I have a little assignment for you - please do your research and share with everyone how many prisoners have died in US custody. Now be so kind as to share with the class how many prisoners (both military and civilian) have been released by captors. Please share with the class who you would rather have capture YOU? al Qaeda in Iraq or US troops???? Do you think there is a difference watching someone being mutilated and be-headed or enduring water-boarding???
I’m off to pick up little Mickey Aphrodite from Little League practice… I’ll try to grade your answers - taking into account your obvious educational deficiencies. Good luck!!!
July 31st, 2006 at 8:57 pmmighty aphrodite
“they REALLY do appreciate our visits - it lessens the monotony….”
I bet they do indeed.
“Be well….”
You too.
Pls, keep in touch - I truly enjoy reading your remarks.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:07 pmMighty moron;(talking point #3). BIG BIG difference here. Bush lied & thousands DIED!!! You’re right about one thing… I do despise Bush and I would not believe him if he said that day is light and night is dark.
This all PROVES that you are a shyster of a (I use the term loosely here) lawyer.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:10 pmEvil Spaniard
Where r u hiding? The same place as james riser / hister / whatever-my-name-is
I believe we have some unfinished business to take care of.
Has your memory gone bad?
July 31st, 2006 at 9:12 pmmighty tripey, you are nothing but a classic skank, do us all a favor and enlist.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:12 pmone jew is one of those trolls that is fascinated by itself. never actually states any facts that are supported by evidence, just talks in vagueries that make it feel better. jew and tripey should start their own cult. they’re perfect candidates for sheep-like behavior.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:14 pmmoron isn’t a lawyer, she’s a sociopathic liar. big difference. any lawyer worth their salt certainly isn’t wasting time trolling websites. she’s a pissed off housewife whose husband treats her like shit while she diapers and feeds her hitler youth.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:17 pmProgressaurus Rex
“you are a stinking, putred, worthless wench, tripey…”
It is very intellectually of you. Why-oh-why don’t you put it in to your resume?
“i’m prepping for a move back to the usa in octoberâ€
You know, spare the trip and stay wherever you are instead.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:18 pmYou hate it here in the USA, don’t you? You feel so-o-o-o lonely here.
#94 Prex; I don’t doubt it.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:21 pmwhatever mad jew.
i’m coming back. you still talk about nothing. i have yet to see one substantive post from you. very goebbels-like of you to attempt to accuse me of hating america. it’s really ironic that you should employ a nazi propaganda tactic, don’t you think?
what the hell does “very intellectually of you” mean anyway?
prove that you actually have the ability to reason, and we’ll talk.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:25 pmBridge Madison
“It was full of the typical cliches one expects from the right-wing bigoted echo chamber.â€
That’s one unbiased take!
“You can’t fight the ideology of terrorism without proving you offer a better alternative. All we’ve proven is that we’re a bunch of hypocritical nation builders.â€
1. Who is “we�
2. No. The USA Government did not prove what you say it did. Using your terms, “democratic nation building†was done in Germany, in Japan and now it is being done in Iraq.
3. You do not think when Marshall offered his plan he was called crazy? You think all people of the USA then stood up and applauded?
“Listen I really do wish I could believe Bush is doing it right. I really do. It would be so much easier to suspend reality, but someone’s got to mind the store.â€
OK. If you could not believe then rely on the choice your compatriots made in 2004.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:29 pmHi Ho Chi Minh .
“Mighty moron”
I always respect war veterans.
You should too. You think?
July 31st, 2006 at 9:33 pmprogs-rest-sour sex
#97 “prove that you actually have the ability to reason, and we’ll talk.”
A deal!!!!!
u go f-yoy-st.
July 31st, 2006 at 9:39 pmI can’t believe that a republican can actually know what reality is when he sees it. Pinch me i’m dreaming!!
July 31st, 2006 at 9:42 pmMighty moron, you? a vet? surely you jest.
July 31st, 2006 at 10:01 pm#102 - Ho Chi Minh,
July 31st, 2006 at 10:06 pmPerhaps, it fixes cats and dogs.
Mighty moron; IF you ARE a vet, just where/when did you serve & WHAT branch?
July 31st, 2006 at 10:07 pmprogs-rest-sour sex
So-o-o-o-o-o.
I take it you do have “…a stinking, putred, worthless wench, tripey…†in your resume.
Good for you.
“what the hell does “very intellectually of you†mean anyway?â€
What are you, a Red Hack?
“i’m coming back…â€
OK. Let’s see. A brief character analysis:
Likes beer, adores Mel Gibson, gets drunk after one straight up, has porno links on one’s website…
H-m-m-m, h-m-m-m, h-m-m-m…
No.
You are lying.
You are not coming back to the USA.
progs-rest-sour sex could not possible exchange hustling in Asia for a NJ neighborhood.
July 31st, 2006 at 10:15 pmgandolf
“Pinch me i’m dreaming!!”
Come over.
That’ll be only $500.
That’s a discount from last week.
Also, I’ll give you one coupon for a free rollercoaster ride.
July 31st, 2006 at 10:18 pmSen. Hagel this afternoon called for an immediate 100% ceasefire between Israel and Hezbollah, in Lebanon, so I applaud Hagel if he will keep demanding it, and if neccessary call on Bush to resign, if Bush refuses to strong-arm the Israelis!
July 31st, 2006 at 10:32 pmJay Randal
Sorry, can’t remember:
Are you KKKJay?
If not, sorry again.
There’s a buddy of mine. Name’s Jay. I enrolled’im in KKK - the bus-tard owes me finders fee.
July 31st, 2006 at 11:20 pmprogs-rest-sorrow sex
Sorry, #105 and #97 have mistakes
#105 should say:
progs-rest-sorrow sex “…gets drunk fast after one sniff of straight up…â€
and
#97 should say:
progs-rest-sorrow sex “…u go f-yoy-st yourself.â€
An honest mistake on my part - I hope you’d understand (if you have capacity – prove it).
July 31st, 2006 at 11:48 pmso mad jew,
July 31st, 2006 at 11:49 pmdid your family abandon you at birth or did they wait until they were absolutely certain you were a mentally deficient, babbling drooler?
is there anything substantive you are going to say or are you going to continue to spew meaningless drivel like an 11 year old?
July 31st, 2006 at 11:55 pmIf you know your history three facts should stand out in your memory:
1) The Aggressors in wars always lose out in the end from the Nepolianic wars through WWII down to Vietnam, first the French and then the USA.
2) Empires only last 200 years and fall apart by over-extending their conquests;
3) Since WW II the Republican Party has Destroyed Democracies and Supported Dictatorships, e. g.
Eisenhower overthrew the Democracies of Guatemala, deposing President Arbenze replaced him with a dictator; threw out the president of Iran and replaced him with the Shah; disrupted the democratic elections scheduled to have taken place in Vietnam in 1954 with American para-military saboteurs who methodically bombed all attempts for Vietnam to hold democratic elections and ignited that Civil War; Reagan tried to overthrow a democracy with his Contra Iraq conspiracy; and now Bush encouraging and supplying Israel with bombs to destroy another newly developing democracy of the Christian nation of Lebanon.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:00 amThe Republican party is the PARTY OF WARS with membership overflowing with draft dodgers. And that is the sad irony of the ‘Rise and Fall’ of democracies…including the USA.
Hagel is a Republican. Therefore, he is part of the problem. Our country is going down the tubes, and he can’t stop it …
August 1st, 2006 at 12:16 amyep.
republicans (neoconservatives) in power have also taken many opportunities to conflate threats in order to make wars necessary or to quell diplomacy.
in 1975 rumsfeld lashed out like a psychopath against the soviet union, claiming they were rapidly expanding their weapons systems, despite having signed a treaty with nixon only recently. the aim was to further entrench us in the cold war (because — funny little thing — neocons believe we need these threats like communism and terrorism, to perpetuate the myth of american purpose in the world).
the reality is that we know now what rumsfeld alleged wasn’t true. the cia even knew it at that time, and history has revealed that the soviet union was, in fact, already beginning to unravel. they certainly weren’t ramping up their weaponry again — at least not until rumsfeld’s lies were the impetus for plunging the cold war to new depths.
and in 1991, cheney alleged that, according to satellite photos, iraq had 250,000 troops and 1500 tanks poised on the saudi border, ready to invade. this would prove as a very crucial point in getting saudis to agree to let us use their bases during gulf war 1, and also garnered other coalition partners — but it was simply not true:
so here we have a situation where these people, rumsfeld and cheney, seem to have a bad habit of misleading america into war and away from diplomacy. they think like the terrorists do, “we should destroy them before they destroy us.” they embrace ideological purity and a binary worldview, and they are all too quick to accuse their fellow americans of being traitors, merely for suggesting a better solution, especially in the face of such breathtaking incompetence and failure.
it seems to me that the real traitors are the ones who have consistently misled us, who would divide us, and who would scream TRAITOR at all who disagree with their myopic, neanderthal’s-eye view of the world.
step right up and defend the neanderthal-cons, mad jew. you clearly accept and celebrate their failure and their incompetence.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:38 am130,000 troops don’t stand a chance agains many millions of pissed off Iraqi’s, no matter how good their training and advanced weapons and supplies.
The supply lines wind through Shiite territory. The Sunni’s would already like to see us wiped out. And now the Shiites have seemingly had enough.
With General “Bring ‘em On!” Bush calling the shots at the White House. We could see US attacks or Israeli attacks on Syria (Sunnis), Iran (Shiites) and Lebanon having US troops. Making us mightly popular fellows in the Middle Est. Mogadishu times a few hundred. WWIII alright, with our troops getting over run and wiped off the face of the earth in the process.
Perhaps when all hell breaks loose, we can flee though the Kurds in the North, provided the Iranians aren’t there waiting for us.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:40 am#85 - “you are a stinking, putred, worthless wench, tripey.”
–fascinating opinion by ProgRex
*****Dear ProgREX - THAT is exactly what my client’s “alibi” witness once said about me after I caught him in a LIE during cross examination. (You seem to run in FINE company. You’ll be glad to know, forensic evidence later proved the filthy mouthed witness was the murderer/rapist.) Needless to say, when that specimen of human debris described me so colourfully, I took it as a compliment. Psst…it’s a compliment from the likes of you, too!! Thanks!
“you should know by now that many of the detainees at gitmo had nothing to do with al qaeda or the taleban, and many have not been formally charged with any crime.” more musings of ProgREX
******And you SHOULD know how many released prisoners from Guantanamo and Abu Ghraib have been re-captured fighting on both fronts. I’ll wait for for your research to provide you the correct number.
“al qaeda is nothing more than a small business administration for terrorists. osama never had the plans, he just had the money.” - more PR
******Osama told you this info…when?? And you believed him? Evidence???
“and worse, our actions now are guaranteeing that we will be hated in that region for the next generation as well. but hey. go ahead and tell me we need to “fight them over there.†- more “wisdom” from PR
******ProgREX - I hate to break this to you - (I know how Progs seek constant approval and love to be loved) but they ALWAYS hated every infidel - and, sadly that includes you, too… Welcome to the club!
I apologize for talking to you in an elementary fashion - but your rants reminded me of a three year old temper tantrums.
Thank you for attempting to understand my work. I stay up late, get up early with kids and am always prepared for whatever workload is scheduled. Some days are lighter than others. When a jury is out, i would rather come here and play, than go to the local watering hole with the other sharks….i appreciate your wanting to come here - it’s much more fun to rally and protest those you detest in person than vicariously through others or worse - the internet….
P.S. Your Mom really should work with you on your manners a bit…
August 1st, 2006 at 1:55 am#102 - “Mighty moron; IF you ARE a vet, just where/when did you serve & WHAT branch? signing off for the night. - Ho Chi Minh
******Yes, Ho, I served in the USN. I was a Lt.Cmdr and served a wide range of duty-stations. I worked in a prosecutorial capacity before switching to the defense side of the table. I served overseas and at home. You do not need to know any other specifics. My husband is a retired USMC officer - he was not JAG. Good night…
P.S. I’ll recommend a good veterinarian for Walt - he looks a little piqued…
August 1st, 2006 at 2:06 amLOL MA stop the story of you being a lawyer > you are actually a male drag queen who cuts hair at a Salon in DC, whose clients include Karl Rove and Ken Mehlman > lol.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:11 amall i know, tripey, is that nothing you say can be trusted. i certainly won’t address your baseless smears against me.
“described me so colourfully”
living in a country that makes use of british spellings that use ‘u’ and ’s’ (colour, stabilise) i have to wonder, just where are you really from? i don’t know a single AMERICAN that uses those spellings, tripey. that’s an acquired habit that an american lawyer would certainly not employ, and yet i see you do it often. indeed, in my professional capacity, my writing contains those conventions as they are accepted here (australia). i find it hard to believe that, after serving in the US NAVY as you claim, and now being a lawyer in the american legal system (for how long?), you would use this manner of spelling. it’s a giveaway. you aren’t who you say you are.
no, you’re really just a sociopath. you have contradicted yourself on these threads on multiple occasions. but your story doesn’t wash. my words for you reflect that there is really no harm in insulting an entity that, in effect, doesn’t exist. you are really only here to act like the freak you are and revel in your own psychoses.
i’m certainly not going to have you waste my time by attempting to search for information that you, the supposed “lawyer”, are completely able to find yourself. that’s a wild goose chase you want to send me on. i repeat: the british and american troops in afghanistan found absolutely no evidence of any mountain fortresses, or al qaeda, for that matter. in fact, after being there for weeks, british brigadier roger lane had to admit that they had neither captured nor killed any al qaeda.
however, if you really wanted the truth, you’d watch this. see if you can actually address the facts therein.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:15 amgreat comments, I enjoyed this thread a lot. I have to agree that Hagel, over the years, speaks his mind at times, but precious little ever comes of it. He has been a disappointment to me, I expected more. Be that as it may, I admire the many souls here who are still willing to remind the Republican types among us of the facts as we know them. I have long since lost that patience. Have you read Dean’s latest book, or the meatier parts of Lakoff’s books? The truth is as simple as it seems…roughly 23% of the population are mindless narcissists who are simply unwilling and unable to detect the world around them and adapt. They are not apprehending information as it occurs around them, they are desperately trying to elude it in favor of their personal illusion of choice. They are the true losers in life…who advertise themselves as superior, God’s chosen and “winners.” Actually, rather than be human, with all its failings,and potential for occasional glory…they cheat and lie to maintain a patina of superiority, hoping eternally to convince themselves that they are not the abject failures they imagine in their heart of hearts. They are sad people…can we simply restore an honest election, though, so they will stop running things and we can go back to patting them on their little heads? Do I sound elitist? whatever…
August 1st, 2006 at 4:51 amMighty moron; OK you served, but I think you misunderstand me, I NEVER knock a person for being a vet, cuz I’m one too. However, I DO question your sanity.
August 1st, 2006 at 7:32 amHo Chi Minh
#121 “However, I DO question your sanity.”
1. Looked in the mirror recently?
2. With your rude comments you cast a shadow over the respect to veterans. Clean up your act. Will you?
August 1st, 2006 at 8:43 amTiran-or-Soros Pax
“i certainly won’t address your baseless smears against me.â€
C’mon boy. You could indeed be fair for at least once:
Who started the “smears�
You Tiran-or-Soros Pax thought you are such a “Mighty moron†that you are “untouchable�
So, tell us about “hustling in Asia” experiences of yours.
August 1st, 2006 at 8:52 amTiran-or-Soros Pax
Yeah, and how about that
“#97 “prove that you actually have the ability to reason, and we’ll talk.—
A deal!!!!!
u go f-yoy-st yourself” deal?
Flip-flopping - now you frog, now you yellow?
August 1st, 2006 at 8:56 amprogs-rest-sorrow sex
you just look’im go - what an intellect, what a language!!!
“so mad jew, did your family abandon you at birth or did they wait until they were absolutely certain you were a mentally deficient, babbling drooler?”
Anybody: whom does he talk to?
August 1st, 2006 at 9:03 am[…] Oh Ok, it’s Hagel. I see, the whole thing is like Vietnam Hagel. This guy is a stooge for the anti-war/pro terrorism left and nothing more. Anathema. […]
August 1st, 2006 at 9:04 amprogs-rest-sorrow sex
Yey!!!! There is more!!!!!!!!!!!
“is there anything substantive you are going to say or are you going to continue to spew meaningless drivel like an 11 year old?”
You were told progs-rest-sorrow sex puppy: “…u go f-yoy-st yourself.â€
August 1st, 2006 at 9:06 amFascist Nation
“130,000 troops don’t stand a chance agains many millions of pissed off Iraqi’s, no matter how good their training and advanced weapons and supplies.”
A-h-h-h-a!
You are in a la-la lend. Keep dreaming.
August 1st, 2006 at 9:08 amTiran-or-Soros Pax
“…but your rants reminded me of a three year old temper tantrums.”
Did you read this?
Well, read it again:
“…but your rants reminded me of a three year old temper tantrums.”
and again
“…but your rants reminded me of a three year old temper tantrums.”
and again
“…but your rants reminded me of a three year old temper tantrums.”.
Did you get it now?
August 1st, 2006 at 9:11 amJay Randal
So, r u Jay KKK Randal or you are not?
One could never get a straight answer from these kinds of folks…
August 1st, 2006 at 9:14 amCastro’s condition unknown after surgery
Yey!!!
One more down, more to go…
Just like with Nobel Peace Prize winner and UN Favorite Ar-a-Fat – until he hits the dust nothing good happens.
To bad we think it is un-human and illegal to eliminate some individuals. I do too think it is un-human and illegal, but boy-or-boy …
August 1st, 2006 at 9:23 amthis war is NOT like Vietnam. Vietnam didn’t have any oil. So nobody was getting rich off it except for defense contractors. The Iraq war is better for “trickle-down” economics. Defense contractors AND oil companies are getting rich. See? There is an overall strategic aim. Duh! Ahh, you liberal fools just don’t understand war. Or economics. Actually, the only thing that really bothers me as a resource-guzzling red-white-blue AMERICAN is that my gas is so expensive. My philosophy is if our soldiers are dying, the gas should be getting cheaper. Everytime an IED takes out coalition forces, gas should drop a nickel a gallon. So maybe I don’t understand economics either. Can’t we just nuke them and then have Megatron and Sound Wave harvest the energy of the burning oil fields and put them in energon cubes? Wouldn’t that make more sense? Thinking makes my head hurt. Go Bush!
August 1st, 2006 at 9:25 amuhh, DUH! Where were all these gits when the war started. Anyone with a brain knew that this was going to be a replay of Vietnam, if not worse than that itself.
August 1st, 2006 at 10:13 amI am sorry to disagree, but any one who has read and studied Genesis will know that the war in Irag is and has been a religious war since Ishmeal and Jacob. Vietnam was a communist power war. Sorry nothing appears to be related here to me. As a born and bred American, with my forefathers coming from England and Prussia(Germany), Scotland and Ireland… they worked hard to defend the constitution of the United States, they learned how to speak English, and were proud to be Americans. As my ggggggrandfather served in at Gettysburg, my grandfather and his brother in law served in WWII, my uncle served in Nam they defended our rights to to complain about our government, freedom of speech to be a bunch of whiny brats.I as a proud American choose to serve in the Army as well as my 17 yr old daughter choose to join the Army instead of going to the college she was accepted at. Education is on hold to defend your rights, and she is only 17, how many of you complaining here today has giving anything to your country, where you can moan and groan and still not do anything to change the world? How productive are you in your life? My God protect, because without our soldiers we would still be under a king that allows no disagreement without beheadings.
August 1st, 2006 at 10:39 amThe way out of Iraq is simple: Pack up and leave a note behind telling the natives that we have tried for three and one-half years to create a system of government for them that they cannot accept. Whether the explanation is religious, cultural or tribal, we have spent lives, money and time attempting to fit a square political sytem into a round hole. Leaving is not “cutting and running,” but rather recognition that this is a failed experiment, based on a false hypothesis and that no matter how much we try, or how much of our youth we sacrifice or our capital we expend, we will fail. “Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it.” To stay in the Middle East will result in our grandchildren fighting their grandchildren over the same lunacy.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:34 am#132
“g-zeus”
Actualy, oil was a factor in Vietnam.
“Herbert Hoover, later to become President of the United States did a study that showed that one of the world’s largest oil fields ran along the coast of the South China Sea right off French Indo-China, now known as Vietnam.”
- Denny, Ludwell, We Fight of Oil, Alfred A. Knopf, New York, 1928
It is easy to imagine during the chess game that was the Cold War that the U.S. would not want the Communist to have control of this.
Okay - Herbert Hoover was a long time ago. Was he right?
From the 1998 Naval War College Review, Spring 1998, Vol. LI, No. 2:
“Vietnam’s southern continental shelf is its most lucrative offshore source of oil. Two fields, Big Bear and Blue Dragon, have by themselves practically underwritten Vietnam’s economy, and both fields are located less than eight kilometers west of the Benton block, and within or astride China’s claim line.”
As recently as 1992 - China and Vietnam had a little dust up in the South China Sea:
“The near-simultaneous declaration of the Law of the Territorial Sea, the Chinese occupation of reefs, and the skirmish with Vietnamese naval units all reflected China’s heightened sensitivity to resource invasions in the South China Sea.
They were a shrill warning to its neighbors that they could not exclude China from development of the area’s natural resources. China’s efforts in this direction were undoubtedly encouraged by a renewed promise of huge finds.
Revised geological surveys by the Chinese Ministry of Geology and Mineral Resources led to speculation that the Spratlys archipelago could contain as much as 105 billion barrels of oil, an amount greater than China’s on-shore reserves. The area surrounding James Shoal alone was also estimated to contain upwards of 90 billion barrels of oil.
The latest encroachments, coupled with China’s shifting status from oil exporter to net importer, likely had convinced Beijing it needed to become more energetic in asserting its rights over a potentially world-class petroleum field.”
In the 50’s and 60’s - I’m pretty sure the details re: the potential of the area ( in terms of billions of bbls. of oil reserves and etc. ) were not known - but they knew enough then to know that it was too significant for the Communist to control.
FYI.
August 1st, 2006 at 11:47 amTo Mighty Aphrodite:
Classical liberals and law-abiding Americans would never defend illegal wiretaps by saying people who can account for legitimate money transfers have nothing to worry about. Classical liberals like privacy. You on the other hand capitulate to breaches in privacy and due process for the tenuous promise of a little security. How scared are you, Pumpkin?
Now, privacy is not a civil right (at the federal level), but due process is. An attorney would never defend illegal wiretaps. He or she would deny that the law has been broken. With me so far?
The government has the burden of proof in obtaining warrants. It’s not up to me to defend myself against a lack of probable cause. I probably lost you there but I have a feeling your not listening anyway, given that your head is so far up your a*s.
The president has authorized spying on Americans despite the obvious breaches in the law . And he knows the law: “[A]ny time you hear the United States government talking about wiretap … a wiretap requires a court order.” - President Bush, April 20, 2004 whitehouse.gov
Next I pointed out that Bush destabilized the region. The best retort you could come up with is that the ends justify the means because Hussein ran a totalitarian government. Yes indeed. That was true in 2003, in 1990 during Dessert Storm and in 1983 when Rumsfeld met with Hussein. So why attack now when Iran is even more poised to take over the region and further along on establishing itself as a nuclear power? SNAFU.
Now we have U.S. soldiers caught in the cross-fire of a civil war. You see it as a bold effort to establish democracy. It might have been that if Rumsfeld knew what he was doing and if Bush proceeded with less hubris and more strategy. His commitment to stay now is a desperate effort to save is reputation.
The continued violence and growing criticisms by military generals bely any claims of progress in the Middle East.
In Dessert Storm we seemed to know when it was time to pack up and leave. This kept us from depleting our military, from minimizing the loss of blood and treasure.
Retreat is not defeat. We come back stronger, with a better plan and better people at the helm. That did not happen when we went to Iraq in 2003. Maybe next time.
That’s all the time I have for you.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:17 pmOne Jew -
How kind of you to bring up Japan, German and the Marshall Plan. These two countries are vastly different to the circumstances and culture relevant to Iraq, but let’s toss this around briefly.
First, German wasn’t a slam dunk. It was in fact two countries until recent history, and East Germany was decidedly communist. But that’s just a technicality, right?
Next, the “democratization” process of these two countries began with a catalyst: Pearl Harbor, an attack on the U.S. Since we know Iraq never attacked us, our pre-emptive strike is a very different scenario. WWII was America defending itself. Iraq is America engaging in nation building, badly.
Finally, thank you for pointing out that Democrats are in a better position to spread the ideology of democracy. After all, F.D. Roosevelt was a Democrat and the president at the beginning of World War II. Harry Truman was a Democrat and the president at the end of WWII and the implementation of the Marshall plan and reconstruction. While Truman faced many challenges and some failures, it’s apparent you believe that the Marshall Plan was a good thing and helped build democracies in Japan and Germany. So thank your for that acknowledgement.
August 1st, 2006 at 12:34 pmRe-election anyone. PLEASE. Give me a break. This is such a ploy.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:26 pmSwift boat applicable???
I think that after the coup in Bagdad most will agree its not Vietnam.
We lost our deal(retired intelligence and military people-Plames) with Sharone, his third party, and Isreal not to do anything until we were out of Iraq. They want to draw the US in because of the troops on the ground.
August 1st, 2006 at 1:31 pmI think Pumpkin Aphrodite should have to lift her skirt to prove that she is not hiding disgusting WMDs under there every day of her pitiful frightened existance.
August 1st, 2006 at 2:53 pmWould all the bible thumpers please stand up and leave the keyboard?
August 1st, 2006 at 2:57 pmThanks.
Bannister, that is an excellent note to leave. “…this is a failed experiment, based on a false hypothesis.” Yep. Precisely! I think the American public can figure out who led them into that quagmire. Failure and False Bush.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:02 pmRexroth’s Daughter
“…to lift her skirt to prove…”
Hey stoned and aged Rexroth’s Daughter, what hole did you come out from?
That hole needs to be sealed with concrete immediately!
Sending fast reaction force!!!!!
August 1st, 2006 at 3:18 pmWell, so far so good, and in another year with enough emitions pushed out into the atmosphere and some sizable hurricanes and yet another preepmtive strike or two around the world against a couple of other threatening outposts and we the Americans will go bye bye into the big sleep. That is what the rest of the world should be praying for at about of right now, because the great American dreamsters and all of our cord stringed Politicians and genreals are lloking more and more like those good old Goebbles,Görings,Himmlers who just like our Dumbsfeldts,Wolfowits,Boltons,Rices,Roves,Cheneys, loved to kiss up to their Führer. Only back-clash this time is that those recently counted do not have one as morbidly sick mind with ex-paternal hatred to spill out all over the world. Nope! \Tese scumbags have only a Chimp like dumb ass who likes to talk like a cowboy and walk like havin a bicycle seat showed up his rectum. So, in conclusion we are about to smilingly walk into oblivion hand in hand while at the same time be singin “oh when the saints” holding onto that extra wide supreem right-winged cape that belong to our dear leader, the super big sugar daddy we all love to hate but still do adictivly follow..Who? the great decider of course..The never ending liar …Ladies and Gents, may I present, the pride and wonder of the (once so called) free world..our President of his own screwed up mind…..Bush.
August 1st, 2006 at 3:27 pmThis is a dark situation. The U.S. really controls nothing outside of the Green Zone in Iraq or Kabul in Afganistan. This is a sectarian civil war and there is nothing we can do about it. We have lost and that is a hard truth to speak.
The hard part is we are dammed if we do and dammed if we don’t. Iraq is a nation on fire and the United States poured the gasoline on it and lit the match. It is an inferno of insanity and we own it. To pull out now will plunge the region into an even deeper regional conflict. To stay means that we will continue to see countless deaths and destruction and we will go broke funding the war in the process.
The president and the Congress have failed in their fiscal, legal and moral responsibility to the American people. It represents a complete failure of command, a violation of the oath of office and a dereliction of duty.
Mark
August 1st, 2006 at 3:46 pmOne Jew; my, my, look who’s calling the kettle black, before you tell ANYONE else to clean up their act, you better start practicing what you are preaching. I NEVER put anyone down for their service, I only question their judgement. It’s the chickenhawks who NEVER served a day in the military who are denouncing veterans as “cut and run cowards” and “traitors”. At the 2004 GOP convention the delegates wore bandaids on their faces with little purple hearts on them mocking Kerry’s war record instead of questioning Bush’s AWOL from service. Look at the reichwing attacks on Murtha questioning his bravery and the shameful treatment given Max Cleland-a triple amputee from the Vietnam war by Axby Chambliss-a draft dodger.
So, I say draft all the chickenhawks and send them to Iraq. I’ll bet that they will instantly become “cut and run cowards”.
August 1st, 2006 at 6:23 pmyes, now tripey is engaged in total fantasy. but only because she IS a total fantasy. tripey, you are not a lawyer, you are a sociopath. if, at any point, you actually PROVED any of the bs you say maybe i could actually take you seriously.
for instance, you (and mad jew) obviously know where i live and some basic information about me. hell, there’s even a picture of me on my website. with a little research you could find out what my name is, where i’m from, etc. that’s because i have nothing to hide. i’m not afraid to come here as i am, say who i am, and what i think. both you and mad jew choose to sociopathically demonize your own countrymen from behind computer identities and for what? freely expressing their opinions as americans. and you expect us to take you at your word? i think not.
you have been trolling here for a long time, tripey, and you NEVER back up what you say with any fact or evidence. it’s all snark and “you libs” and the same partisan attacks on your fellow americans. and to insinuate that somehow you can claim any sort of moral high ground here is laughable (just a hint — bringing my mother into it, comparing me with a murderer and rapist — there’s nothing honorable or moral in that. or should i say “honourable”? you didn’t respond to that one, you fraud). half a century ago, conservatives in this country declared war on their fellow citizens, choosing to embrace fear and division over strength and tolerance. you continue that great conservative tradition.
as long as you continue to baselessly attack people here, i will return the favor (or should i say favour?). i invite either one of you to read my posts at 85, 114 or 119 and respond to the points i make there (factually - merely saying the opposite of what i say, and then saying “prove it” isn’t a rebuttal. if you can’t come up with the facts to refute what i say, then you must not be able to refute what i say). of course, being fictional trolls with no purpose aside from creating partisan friction and derision, i don’t expect either of you will do anything short of continue to crow here, attempting to spread the disease of single-minded partisanship, with which you are so woefully afflicted.
August 1st, 2006 at 8:27 pmTo the Memory of my fellow American, compatriot and the Soldier of Freedom
Michael Levin, 22,
“… moved to Israel three years ago from Pennsylvania and enlisted in the paratroopers, Israeli media reported. Levin cut short a visit to his family four days ago and returned to his unit.”
By HAMZA HENDAWI, Associated Press Writer
Peace for Israel
August 2nd, 2006 at 8:45 pm[…] There’s been quite a bit of buzz in the media lately due to a rarity: a congressional Republican has been openly criticizing the Bush administration on a number of issues as of late. Chuck Hagel, a Republican senator from Nebraska, has been at odds with his party over various foreign policy-related issues. A few weeks ago, he criticized the Bush administration’s handling of the Mideast conflict between Israel and Hezbollah. Then he went and compared Iraq to Vietnam, something that’s not too popular an opinion with the right wing. Today, he comes out and says that the GOP has lost itself: Republicans have lost their way when it comes to many core GOP principles and may be in jeopardy heading into the fall elections, Sen. Chuck Hagel, R-Neb. says. Hagel, a possible presidential candidate in 2008, said Sunday that the GOP today is very different party from the one when he first voted Republican. […]
August 20th, 2006 at 10:35 pm[…] Today, more than 2800 U.S. soldiers have been killed in Iraq, almost exactly the same as the number of people who died in the 9/11 attacks. More than 20,000 are wounded, many of them with life-altering injuries which will require a lifetime of care, care George Bush and our Republican-led Congress seem reluctant to provide. Republican Senator Chuck Hagel has likened Iraq to Vietnam, and declared that the occupation is “destroying the United States Army”. […]
November 1st, 2006 at 2:33 pmDave…
Interesting topic… I’m working in this industry myself and I don’t agree about this in 100%, but I added your page to my bookmarks and hope to see more interesting articles in the future…
November 13th, 2006 at 9:23 pm[…] Stated that Iraq was “an absolute replay of Vietnam.” [Think Progress, 7/31/06] […]
January 12th, 2007 at 12:41 am