Iraq’s New Freedom on Display: Hundreds of Thousands Chant ‘Death To America’
Iraq’s New Freedom on Display: Hundreds of Thousands Chant ‘Death To America’
Before the Iraq war, Bush officials repeatedly heralded the transformative effect that a liberated Iraq would have both for the U.S. and the Middle East:
BUSH: Acting against the danger will also contribute greatly to the long-term safety and stability of our world. … A liberated Iraq can show the power of freedom to transform this vital region by bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions. [2/26/03]
CHENEY: Should all [Saddam's] ambitions be realized, the implications would be enormous for the Middle East, for the United States, and for the peace of the world. [8/26/02]
WOLFOWITZ: The stakes of building a peaceful, prosperous Iraq that treats its own people decently and is at peace with its neighbors, the stakes are enormous. … That kind of an Iraq, I think, could be a real force for peace and prosperity and progress throughout the Middle East. [12/4/02]
Your new Iraq:
Hundreds of thousands of Shiites chanting “Death to Israel” and “Death to America” marched through the streets of Baghdad’s biggest Shiite district Friday in a show of support for Hezbollah militants battling Israeli troops in Lebanon.
…
“Mahdi Army and Hezbollah are one. Let them confront us if they dare,” the predominantly male crowd shouted, waving the flags of Hezbollah, Lebanon and Iraq.
…
Protesters set fire to American and Israeli flags, as well as effigies of President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, showing the men with Dracula teeth. “Saddam and Bush, Two Faces of One Coin” was scrawled on Bush’s effigy.
Gee, that’s a funny way to welcome your “liberators”.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:16 pmSomehow I get the feeling that these people don’t like what Bush’s America is doing in their part of the world.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:16 pmWell, they just hate America!
August 4th, 2006 at 1:17 pm… but were there any rose pettals?
August 4th, 2006 at 1:17 pmAh, Democracy! Free speech!
Thank goodness we were able to offer these people the power to organize AGAINST US.
Or, maybe it WAS A HORRIBLE IDEA FROM THE GET-GO.
You cannot, and never will, FORCE people into a Democracy. But if you do, be prepared to get snake-bitten, as we now so clearly see.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:20 pmSales of american flags to go up in Iraq, and boxes of matches sales go up
August 4th, 2006 at 1:20 pmMission Accomplished
August 4th, 2006 at 1:21 pmOh boy get the troops out of Iraq starting tomorrow please!
August 4th, 2006 at 1:22 pmI dare any troll to name one thing this administration has improved though its term. The only word that comes to my mindfor Bush is FAILURE.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:23 pm[...] Source: Iraq’s New Freedom on Display: Hundreds of Thousands Chant ‘Death To America’ - America [Feed] [...]
August 4th, 2006 at 1:23 pmCaption Contest;
Hey,what about the flag desecration law ?
August 4th, 2006 at 1:23 pmIraq’s Shia in ‘million man march’
Shias from southern and central Iraq have begun travelling to Baghdad in answer to Muqtada al-Sadr’s call for a “million man march†in support of Lebanon’s Hezbollah.
Waving Iraqi flags and chanting “Death to America! Death to Israelâ€, the demonstrators mounted convoys of buses and headed for the capital on Thursday, some of them wearing white shrouds symbolising their readiness to accept martyrdom.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:25 pmNo…you guys got it wrong.
These people hate freedom
wait a minute….these are the same people that wanted Saddam out, so they can have more freedom, and now they are supporting Hezbollah???
my compassionate conservative brain is malfunctioning!!!
August 4th, 2006 at 1:25 pmGood for the Iraqi people…
August 4th, 2006 at 1:28 pmCaption Contest:
“Damn it Achmed, who would have thought this colored toilet paper would have sold so well?”
August 4th, 2006 at 1:30 pmThe MSM is running this story Trolls, its really news. So what now trolls, is this just par for the course, part of the overall bigger and better picture, are we focusing only on the negative here. OK, so tell me some positive news out of Iraq, news that is new, not the old stuff. Because this is new also.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:31 pmYou mean staying the course is not working? Shut up!
August 4th, 2006 at 1:31 pmWinning hearts and minds!
Please visit yesterday’s Wingnut Roundup and, today, a cheap shot at Tom Friedman, the Moustache of Understanding.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:31 pmTo every Bush and Cheney lover in America: at $10 billion a month we’re sure getting our money’s worth. But don’t fret none, you aren’t going to be eating this whole cost: your children and your children’s children will burning holes in their pockets for generations to come. Ain’t stupidity grand?
August 4th, 2006 at 1:32 pmThese kids need a job, Bill O’ should start a Falafal fast food chain, he could emply thousands!
August 4th, 2006 at 1:32 pmbeautiful.
simply beautiful!!!
a ‘uniter and not a divider’…. there is no reason we can’t get ten million people to march on d.c…. i will bring the lighter…
August 4th, 2006 at 1:32 pmDo you think meddling around in the Middle East, with things that you dont understand, are gonna work out well? If the neocons were actaully smart, they would get off the oil, move Isreal, and then nuke the rest, they cant even do that.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:33 pmHave you all seen CSPAN?
rtsp://video.c-span.org/60days/ap072906_theories.rm
August 4th, 2006 at 1:33 pmNot bad for only $500 billion invested to date – go Bush!
August 4th, 2006 at 1:34 pmif you look really closely, you can see one of them saying,
‘we hate america because of its freedom…’
no really, look at the tape….
August 4th, 2006 at 1:38 pmYou just gotta LOVE the first Amendment!! “Death to America” sounds like something the Queen of Mourning, Cindy Sheehan would spout, – of course, with her NEW “best friend” Hugo Chavez by her side….(Naturally, in a show of solidarity, we could count on the wack-jobs from Code Pink-o, and Int’l ANSWER to take up the cry…) BTW – Did Cindy accompany HUGo to Iran to meet with his other BFF, President AchateJews??
Busy day….’til later
August 4th, 2006 at 1:38 pmFunny, this story doesn’t mention anything about American flags or effigy-Bush-burning: http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/04/iraq.main/index.html
August 4th, 2006 at 1:40 pmBusy day….’til later
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Sorry you feel so bad about being a loser… but that is the way it works .. Truth hurts.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:40 pmWhats the matter Mighty, did Mr. Aphrodite run out of Viagra?
August 4th, 2006 at 1:41 pm#21
We need to get this organized: The Million People March to inform our Dictatorship (that goes for BOTH Repukes, and Democant’s) that we can and will take back control over this Government.
Ah, and there goes MA, completely off topic AS USUAL. It must cripple you to have so much hate for another woman. But that’s how you catty bitches treat each other usually, right?
August 4th, 2006 at 1:41 pmYou cannot, and never will, FORCE people into a Democracy. But if you do, be prepared to get snake-bitten, as we now so clearly see.
Comment by DieNowForPeace
The spirit of humanity was shown clearly by the early American slogan… DONT TREAD ON ME. No humans accept living under the dominion of others against their will.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:42 pmAnd Trolls,
We are not gleefully enjoying anti-American marches, we do enjoy the truth getting out that the Iraq thing ain’t workin’.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:43 pmAmerica is bringing people closer together. The Secret State of America has not only lost Iraq and Afghanistan, but Lebanon too. America and their Zionist (not Jewish) bretheren have managed to bring Christian and Arab groups together in Lebanon too.
Most Americans don’t know that Israel is bombing the Maronite Christians which is closely joined to the Roman Catholic church that was created in the very early 400s. That is how little the US knows about Lebanon. The country’s leadership is primarily Christian. The US has managed to bring multiple Christian and Arab groups together and has killed the relationship that it was hoping to have with this country into the forseable future.
Israel is now bombing the Christian heartland in central and northern Lebanon and has killed a over two dozen Christians.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:43 pmReply to SuperEdo:
Funny, this story doesn’t mention anything about American flags or effigy-Bush-burning: http://www.cnn.com/ 2006/ WORLD/ meast/ 08/ 04/ iraq.main/ index.html
Your CNN article also pointlessly mentions:
Hezbollah’s capture of two Israeli soldiers sparked the fighting in a cross-border raid July 12.
Problem is, we know this is a LIE.
So of the two, I’ll be trusting the one that isn’t printing obvious lies. Kthx.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:46 pmHoly shit. I hope this is covered in the MSM along with quotes from Bush, Wolfy, Cheney and 250 million a day that we are spending. That liberal media. This should be put in all the ads for upcoming elections. For good measure, ads should show the gas prices under moron’s administration.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:48 pmI say get the troops out and glass the entire middle east.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:53 pmYeh, this is going REAL well. Turning a corner, any moment now,………….. wait for it….yah, there it is, “last throes”. Ah, finally. I feel so much better now.
And Rummy just sat there yesterday, blustering away, debating semantics, hoping that we’d fall for his line that history would tell the true story of Iraq, blind to the current trend of steady deterioration. That this guy hasnt been forceably removed is beyond me…
August 4th, 2006 at 1:53 pmNow let me get this right is Bush a war President or a peace President. The US invades Iraq to take over the oil rights Bush could care less about the Iraq people. Now that the US has spent 1 trillon dollars on who knows what the Iraq people want us out. Oh yes and Rummy says they want us to stay. Now is someone lying here. Well it’s time to move on to cause more trouble so Bush is starting trouble for Cuba. Notice how Bush says Iran is giving weapons and support to Hezbollah while the US is giving weapons to Israel and support, Who’s wrong there or are we the same. Liebernam might be the next Secretary of Defense because of the Kiss by Bush. Now that would be something a Jewish Secretary of Defense well Israel will have all they need then. Now the plan is get as much land next to Syria for future attacks of Iran and Syria. Human lives loss mean nothing just keep moving to get closer and then we strike. Oh yes we must get Cuba too. Bush is crazy and sick if Americans don’t stop him all hell will break loose.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:56 pmBush is the new Saddam. He is a uniter. He is uniting most of the world againts the US.
August 4th, 2006 at 1:56 pm#32,
full disclosure here: oh no, I AM ENJOYING the march… i may be one of the furthest left non-troll, but, yes, i LOVE seeing this!
why would i not love seeing this when i wish i were doing the same here???
August 4th, 2006 at 1:57 pm#36
August 4th, 2006 at 1:58 pmIf you are refering to nuking the ME because the neo-con plan isn’t working then you are insane. Reminds me of a kid who will cut a football because they won’t let him be the quarterback. Anyway how are we supposed to used radiated oil?
Woops, time to impose a free speech zone.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:00 pmI say we invade; if the people of Iraq are going to openly support terrorist, we can not let this stand.
Moreover, I understand the “government” of Iraq is merely a puppet of a larger more powerful country. This country is viewed by many in Europe as one of the greatest dangers to world security. Plus I understand this country, the one pulling the strings in Iraq, spies on its own citizens; tortures and indefinitely detains those it views as a threat (without trial, I might add) and many other offenses.
It is only the American way to not tolerate both Mideast countries that support terrorists along with countries that can not respect humane treatment and act as their puppeteers. To protect America, we must invade!
August 4th, 2006 at 2:00 pmtheres a lesson to be learn here a fledgling democracy can round up a million demonstrators against Bush (America) and America cant even manage that with 10 times the population ….STRANGE
August 4th, 2006 at 2:01 pmI recall pre-war warnings, that removing Saddam could create a shiite majority country closely allied with Iran, and Syria.
As for the trolls, this is a rock and hard place moment, they are supposed to support our friends and allies in the middle east, but want the death and destruction of anyone who does not suppport Isreal.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:01 pmThat this guy hasnt been forceably removed is beyond me…
‘That guy’ is doing exactly what the neocon cabal that has hijacked this country needs him to do. It only looks like incompetence because the real goals are radically different from his fake ones.
Say I was making an omlette, and ll I had to make it in was a crummy old pan. During preperation of the omlette, I walk away and make a sandwich, during which the omlette burns up, and the pan is damaged. If you judge my actions within the goalset of ‘making a successful omlette’, I have indeed failed miserably, but if you realize that my true intent was to damage the pan so I would have an excuse to go out and buy a new one, you see that I was indeed successful.
In this case, our administration’s goal is not to free Iraq, or stabilize Iraq, or do anything positive for Iraq. Our goal is to destabilize the region, retard the flow of oil for the region, and create an excuse for permanent military bases, as well as forays into other, nearby ‘problem regions’ (Iran, Syria, etc.)
Seen in this light, Rummy’s doing a bang-up job. Don’t expect him to lose his job anytime soon.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:01 pmwhy are not the architects of this disaster in jail ? In a just society people who f**k-up pay the consequences. Rumsfeld, Cheney, Wolfie, Feith, Perle, all are still free living among us with blood on their hands. They all should be lynched.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:01 pmThose convinced against their will are of the same opinion still.
Dale Carnegie
August 4th, 2006 at 2:04 pmBusy day….’til later
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 4, 2006 @ 1:38 pm
So thats your only comment today. I don’t think you should get off that easily.
I’ve been posting here for a couple of months, and in that time you’ve been an unwavering supporter of this horror show that this administration has become. You need to understand this. Tens of thousands of people are dead in Iraq, hundreds in Lebanon and Israel, as well as several thousand American soldiers.
The world is a far more dangerous place, and America has complete lost it’s moral authority as well as it’s own moral compass.
You MA are culpable. You have got to grasp this. You personally, and Sexion and Exley and all the others that hover around to badger, bait and annoy. You all share culpability in the tens, perhaps hundreds of thousands of deaths that this administration, enabled by Americans like you, is responsible for.
I feel the weight of my own culpability, apathy, failure to act, failure to protest, but you guys, the active enablers, how can you possibly continue to function?
August 4th, 2006 at 2:05 pmGeez Louise I do not want to die .. do you think they mean “all Americans” when they wish America dead or just the bushiters …
Cause I saw the errors of my ways I hate bush … he is not on my Xmas list anymore
August 4th, 2006 at 2:23 pmReply to jason baddo:
why are not the architects of this disaster in jail ?
Because the architects of this disaster run the jails. The foxes are firmly in charge of the henhouse.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:25 pmAnd this administration is keeping our troops in Iraq for this? Their policy decisions have ended in disaster and the soldiers and Iraqis are paying the price for it.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:26 pmComforting.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:27 pmFlower petals and chocolates, anyone?
August 4th, 2006 at 2:33 pmYea anti-America crowd, but where is the good news in Iraq,? I heard they patched a the roof of a school and threw cheap candy, why not report on that?
August 4th, 2006 at 2:34 pmyou guys, the active enablers, how can you possibly continue to function?
Comment by Brian Coughlan — August 4, 2006 @ 2:05 pm
Because from these enablers’ perspective, they are not at fault. They are never at fault, and they will never take responsibility for their own failures.
See, the mess in Iraq is the Iraqis’ fault for not accepting the American “gift” of freedom, and for not understanding democracy. Or it is the liberals’ fault, for not supporting any and all insane schemes flowing out of the White House. Or it is the media’s fault, for not parroting the official line.
With this alternative reality crowd, the responsibility never, ever rests on the shoulders of those who conceived the failed policy, pushed for its acceptance, ignored advise, and implemented the ill-conceived policies -the world be damned. It is not their fault.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:41 pmIs anyone surprised by this outcome? Of course, these people hate America. Americans would hate anyone that came to our country and did what America (or more to the point, Bush) has done to Iraq. As far as Mighty A.’s comment “Queen of Mourning, Cindy Sheehan,” this is how the rightwing fascist fanatics view the mother of a soldier who died for his country? How shameful is that? Yet, they claim to support our troops. Ha! If you truly support our troops, then you most certainly must support the family members of those troops. But I think we all know that republicans and the purported “christians” that support this hideous Bush regime do not really support our troops. They just love Bush because he is a hateful bigot just like them.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:41 pmWell, we can’t cut and run now. Look at all those terrorists we have to kill.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:42 pmLiberals need to stop bashing Bush and start bashing “Conservatism” in general. Its what they do to us. We have to stop saying its ok to be a Conservative as long as you are good and be a “real” conservative. The average voter has no idea the conservative party has been hijacked by neo-cons. This is what conservatism has become, this is what it is.
“Hypocracy and denial” “The Church of Conservatism”. Will be my new book.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:48 pm#56
Gregor, you hit the nail on the heaad.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:50 pmThe War in Iraq will make the GOP an impossible brand to sell come November. In the end, the neocons will get:
August 4th, 2006 at 2:55 pmNo oil
No democracy
No freedom on the march
No peace in the Middle East
No WMD
No credibility
No treatment as liberators
Iraq is a failed GOP/Republican/Conservative/Neocon policy that will ahve to be answered for at every campaign by every candidate. Is the US or the world any safer or better off in any way with this outfit in the White House? Have YOU had enough?
#63
No oil
No democracy
No freedom on the march
No peace in the Middle East
No WMD
No credibility
No treatment as liberators
but we get lots of brush cleared in Texas
August 4th, 2006 at 2:57 pmIf you are fu#ked and you don’t know it, are you any less fu#ked?
August 4th, 2006 at 2:57 pmNeocon, Richard Perle, 9/’03: “A year from now I’d be surprised if there’s not some grand square in Baghdad that is named after President Bush.â€
Comment by Bluedog49
Oh well, they got a burning effigy instead (with Vampire fangs, no less!)
Maybe they could name the square “The Burning Bush”?
August 4th, 2006 at 2:58 pm“Hypocracy and denial†“The Church of Conservatismâ€. Will be my new book.
Comment by For Truth — August 4, 2006 @ 2:48 pm
I agree. My fondest wish would be to see the republican party destroyed as a political force in the US, as an object lesson to war mongers everywhere. Alas the US system is so hopelessly moribund, that even this level of ineptitude only gets you a brief timeout, if even that:-(
August 4th, 2006 at 2:58 pmRealScientist,
Thanks. I am really frustrated.
These dimwits have been proven wrong about everything they’ve pushed for, and they still blame others using the worst accusations: Critics are traitors, anti-Americans, anti-Semites, in bed with terrorists…
If I got a dime for every instance I was accused of these things, I would retire today. But I know I won’t get as as much as an apology: That would be a recognition that I (and others who agreed with me) was right all along.
Having run out of people on Earth to blame for their failures, I wholly expect these Bush cultists to start blaming the little green men from outerspace…
August 4th, 2006 at 2:59 pm. . . speaking of Cindy Sheehan, if Bush gives her 10 minutes last summer before his “advisors” allowed her thing to gain momentum, we wouldn’t even know her name. These must be the same advisors who helped him frame “Social Security Reform” and nominating Harriet Meyers, and Iraq.
August 4th, 2006 at 2:59 pmDamn you negative liberal nabobs. Freedom is on the march, by the tens of thousands.
-Moqtadr Al Sadr
August 4th, 2006 at 3:00 pmName one thing Bush has made better?
American and Israeli flag sales in Muslim countries are going through the roof.
-GSD
August 4th, 2006 at 3:00 pmName one thing Bush has made better? We now have “Free Speech Zones” in the United States of America.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:03 pmAh crap, Arabs and Muslims with opinions, freely expressing them like is done in the United States? Preposterous! We must end this at once!
Meanwhile millions of Iraqis sat at home with other opinions. Shocking!
August 4th, 2006 at 3:04 pmName one thing Bush has made better?
demand for anti-depressant pills
August 4th, 2006 at 3:06 pmMighty Aphrodite makes another “cut and run” remark. Desperate times call for desperate measures.
A new neocon movie, starring Bush, Cheney, Rice, and Rumsfeld: “TruthBusters” and their theme song, “Who Ya Gonna Blame?, TruthBusters”.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:11 pmAh crap, Arabs and Muslims with opinions, freely expressing them like is done in the United States? Preposterous! We must end this at once!
Meanwhile millions of Iraqis sat at home with other opinions. Shocking!
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 3:04 pm
Ah yes, here you are. So this is just Iraqis expressing their freedom of Speech? You don’t think that it’s going to end in many, many dead people? You think the whole Israel Lebanon think will blow over, everyone will go home and no harm done? Other than the 1000+ dead people that is.
Or could it be that you know that people will be killed, and you are sick enough to have a good old laugh about it, because you just don’t care. It just doesn’t bother you at all.
You are living proof there is no God, or if he does exist, that he is a sick, sick bastard.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:13 pmName one thing Bush has made better?
The opening dialogues of late night talk shows.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:13 pmSeixon must not be getting enough “lord”ing over on his own website today. If there are people in the streets handing out “sweets and flowers” or sitting in their homes having their daily “Bush” celebration cake then why doesn’t Faux News show it? And I wouldn’t be at all surprised if BushCo DOES try to “stop this at once”.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:18 pmAnd why are we not doing the same? I, just like every one else here, am sitting at my computer instead of doing what we really need to be doing. We have to look like complete idiots to the rest of the world as we do not protest as we should when taken over by a thug administration.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:19 pm#49 – Brian Couglin, one of my FAVOURITE hand-wringers, notes: “…and in that time you’ve been an unwavering supporter of this horror show that this administration has become….”
*****Brian, I suppose if you are an unswerving supporter of the status quo and maniacal dictators, (like Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain or my favourite former President, Jimmeh Carter) you would not care about dead Kurds, dead Israelis, dead Lebanese, mass graves, etc. Afterall, tired old Europe could not keep the Soviets at bay and relied on the US to supply a mantle of protection. (What’s a few dictators among friends? They do have a way of making the trains run on time and keeping things “in order”. Europe – a bastion of Jew-hating for centuries – they couldn’t get those trains loaded fast enough, could they?
I am saddened to see Iraqi civilians killed by ANYONE – unfortunately life isn’t as nice, neat and orderly as the dictators of old provided for the general populations of the countries they wooed and later coerced through deadly force and fear. If the Iraqi’s cannot destroy or civilize the Islamo-wacks, they may not be capable of enjoying the fruits of democracy.
Allow me to sooth your worries – you appear to be such an intimidated, frightened little putz – I’m sure you’re not culpable of ANYTHING – good or bad….
And for your finale – ta’ da!! “I feel the weight of my own culpability, apathy, failure to act, failure to protest, but you guys, the active enablers, how can you possibly continue to function?”
August 4th, 2006 at 3:24 pm*******I have a feeling you relish all those feelings – how else could you feel soooo
“morally superior “
President Bush and Israeli Prime Minister Ehud Olmert, showing the men with Dracula teeth.
God even the Iraqis know he is a direct decendand of Vlad the impaler ( Dracula)
August 4th, 2006 at 3:25 pmAn friend of mine in Austin is a singer/songwriter, and one of his older tunes is so damn poignant right now:
“Good God”
Words and Music
by Billy Harvey
God forgive me
For all that I’ve am
I’m all of the things
I don’t understand
I live in a World
Where people get killed
For nothing they’ve done
Is that really your will?
Good, God. (x4)
Made your image
Just what does that mean?
Cause I’ve been afraid of
So much that I’ve seen
If people could be
More heartless and cruel
Then I’m not so sure but
You probaly could too
Good God (x4)
How could you forgive us?
This human-like race
We’re not running, we’re falling
From all of your Grace
With all the destruction
That we, willing to sow
We don’t have the courage
To let anything grow
Good God (x4)
Are you even up there?
What’s really your name?
Was all this creation
Done partly in vain?
I give you the benefit
Of all of my doubt
If you give me some answers
I could use them right now
Good God (x4)
August 4th, 2006 at 3:27 pm“Stay The Course”.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:28 pmThe difference between libs and Neocons.
Libs see people protesting in the streets and believe the war is lost, lets cut and run. Mission failed.
Neocons see people marching in the streets and say, wow they are voicing their opinion and not getting shot. Mission accomplished.
I see democracy in action…
August 4th, 2006 at 3:29 pmoh my! i am thanking god right now that our leader is not cutting the shrubs in lebanon! thank you, jesus!!!!
August 4th, 2006 at 3:31 pm
I see democracy in action…
Comment by Wow
If you’re seeing the Democracy in action, why aren’t you paying attention to what their message is?
US OUT OF IRAQ NOW is pretty straight forward to those of us with functioning frontal lobes…
August 4th, 2006 at 3:32 pmBrian, I suppose if you are an unswerving supporter of the status quo and maniacal dictators, (like Prime Minister Neville Chamberlain or
Thats it? The past? All Europeans are Jew hating fascists because of the history of 60 years ago? The boilerplate “they are the Nazis and I’m Winston Churchhill” riff? Does nothing touch you, and are you really a woman, do you realize it’s 2006 and the man you enable is responsible for 50,000+ and counting deaths?
Do you just not care?
Oh and mea culpa. Yes I’m a whiny hand wringer, rational humans get that way when faced with dreadful things they have little power to prevent.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:34 pmhey, i don’t care if it is only thousands, ten of thousands or millions of protesters against bush!
i am not greedy! i am happy knowing that bush is being burned in effigy and that these protesters are speaking truth to power!!!
go iraqi dissidents!!!
August 4th, 2006 at 3:35 pm87% of Iraqies want American troops OUT NOW
1 Bush does not want the troops out
August 4th, 2006 at 3:39 pmWell I would sure hope so, since there is no God. Don’t tell the Iraqis though, they might get a bit upset and protest against you. Which in your logic would immediately result in the deaths of thousands of people. Or something. I’m not quite sure what the hell you’re actually trying to say.
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 3:26 pm
Well we can agree on that. I’m talking about cause and effect, the collapse of Iraq the war in Lebanon, the boiling pot of anger, bitterness and resentment the middle east has become.
By allowing the Israelies a free hand to slaughter at will, the pressure is up another notch, these protests are hardly surprising, but they are not good news. Something is going to blow. You people are like kids playing russian roulette, except of course the gun is always pointed at someone elses head.
So thats ok.
Shades of gray. Try to figure it out. Some day.
The gall of this comment!!! Try addressing that to your own President Bush, the poster boy for monochrome foreign policy.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:40 pm#57 – BluePuP – The LAST thing the Queen of Mourning was right about was the spelling of her dear son’s name. (I don’t think wshe went to Iran with her new BFF HUGo – but I could be wrong. I haven’t seen her since she wqas partying with the newly coiffed Cynthia McKinney…)
#58 – “….as Mighty A.’s comment “Queen of Mourning, Cindy Sheehan,†this is how the rightwing fascist fanatics view the mother of a soldier who died for his country?…”
Comment by GayBare
******Leftwing commie fanatics despise the US so much they will throw their arms around a ANYONE who hates this country with complete venom (i.e. HUGo and AchateJewsalot). I feel terribly sorry for Mr. and Mrs. Sheehan’s loss of their beloved son, Casey. We owe him a debt of gratitude that can never be re-paid. Bravely ENLISTING twice, someone from the Left should HONOR him and haul her off his coffin. Agreeing with everything deranged Cindy says does not honor her son, herself or our country. But the fact that she now has a new job, new prominence, new “friends” and tons of air miles seems to have lifted her lagging spirit.
“Hateful bigot”? How predictably adorable!! Did you THINK thaaat one up ALL by yourself???
August 4th, 2006 at 3:41 pmby bringing hope and progress into the lives of millions.
So less electricity, close to (or in) civil war, less protection from militia, warlords and local army thugs, very little progress on building (or rebuilding since Bush’s bombs did a hell of a job) infrastructure, so this is bringing progress and hope? Hellofajob Bush. Why people like MA and Sexless think this is a good thing is beyond logic.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:41 pmSeixon (was hoping to NEVER write that ‘name’ again),
If Iraq is a Democracy, and the MAJORITY want us to leave, uh, what was your argument again? Oh yes, varying opinions in Iraq, BUT, again, the MAJORITY want us out. Would you like a pie chart to SEE what a majority looks like?
August 4th, 2006 at 3:42 pmThe government of Iraq wants a timetable for us to leave and these protests show that many Iraqis want the US out. But there are many at home that have not spoken or marched that want us to stay. I’ll go with my gut, just like Bush, and say it’s time we left.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:43 pm#104 Seixon (was hoping to NEVER write that ‘name’ again),
Comment by DieNowForPeace — August 4, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
You can try Saucisson.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:44 pmReply to #9
Well I ma not a troll but I am going to take astab at aswering your question.
Haliburton’s bottom line and Dick Chaney’s retirement pay from Haliburton have certainly improved during this administration.
Do I win a prize or what?
August 4th, 2006 at 3:45 pmIraqis hold many opinions, try not to forget that they are actually humans who can think with their brains just like you and me, not just pieces of meat you fling in front of your political opponents as a debate argument.
Maybe you should tell that to Mr. Bush. Show me one instance where Bush has done something in reaction to the opinions of the people of Iraq. Seems that to Bush, Iraqi people are just pieces of meat that happened to get in the way of a big oil field.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:46 pmLeftwing commie fanatics despise the US so much they will throw their arms around a ANYONE who hates this country with complete venom (i.e. HUGo and AchateJewsalot).
This thing in Iraq is disintegrating. All the rethoric and name calling in the world cannot stop reality from intruding. It is certainly going to get much worse before it gets better, and all the deaths that this causes will be laid at the republicans door. Where they belong. It almost makes me grasp why people insist on the death penalty.
You MA and Co. (you know who are) are responsible. You need to understand and absorb your guilt. For your own mental health, such as it is.
How will you feel when the complete implosion comes? You’ve been warned, it’s more than you deserve:-(
August 4th, 2006 at 3:49 pmNeocons on suicide watch. Cruel summer for them.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:53 pm101, Mighty,
I debunked your point in #32, way before you even posted, shut up now. I knew you would be spewing the trash, I “preemtively” countered you.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:55 pmNeocons on suicide watch. Cruel summer for them.
Comment by Manuel
“OH HAPPY DAYS!”
August 4th, 2006 at 3:56 pmI wonder what Saddam, or Brezhnev, or Castro or Adolf would have done if as much free speech were expressed during their regimes?? Did you notice the Arab-Israelis demostrating FREELY in Jerusalem?? I wonder if AchhateJews would allow a pro-Israeli rally in Tehran? Would HUGo allow the streets of Caracas to be covered by the press the way the MSM is allowed to cover domestic rallies??
What is truly pathetic is the Culture WAR is underway and Leftists Progs think they can “negotiate” it away. Unfortunately, negotiating with this enemy is doubtful. (Hint: While I disagree with 99% of your opinions – I do not wish you ANY HARM to come to you. That cannot be said by the extreme Islamo-wacks.)
August 4th, 2006 at 3:57 pmYo Trolls,
Would you all vote for President-Monkey-Brains today?
For those of you who would still answer yes. Your boy has got a few more years in office. How about this one, and answer truthfully now, given his track record, do you think things are going to improve and a year from now you’ll be whistling I Told You So, or do you think that President-Monkey-Brains will bring us and the world a few more disasters?
Unfortunately for most of us this one is a quick answer, but regardless, see ya a year from now.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:59 pmI only hope the we all still exist.
I wonder what Saddam, or Brezhnev, or Castro or Adolf would have done if as much free speech were expressed during their regimes??
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Who cares really. This isnt WWII.
The bottom line is NeoCons promised they were doing good for the people of Iraq. And the people of Iraq now chant the same crap Iranians do. NeoCons have failed at their STATED goals. Failure == punishment.
August 4th, 2006 at 3:59 pmGOP+Chaos=$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$$
August 4th, 2006 at 4:00 pmUh, in response to all your posts, Mighty Aphrodite, you are yet again foaming at the mouth. Adorable? Glad you think so. Frankly, I find you DEPLORABLE. I find your backwards thinking shameful. I find your hatred and bigotry intolerable. And as a matter of fact I think you are a hateful bigot (I do recall some time ago you admitted to being a KKK sympathizer, so that just about says it all). It is only hateful bigots that support the Bush regime. Let’s call a spade a spade, dear Mighty one. Quit hiding under the guise of someone who cares about the United States and its people. You are just another garden variety bigot out to turn back the hands of time to when blacks were slaves. No doubt, you would have loved living in that time. As far as Cindy Sheehan goes, that woman is an angel. Her son died for this country, yet you feel no shame in mocking her. You show your true colors with those actions. So go ahead and foam at the mouth, call people names, and act out like a spoiled brat who has not gotten her way. I will say to you what I said to another bigot posting in another thread, time and progress are beautiful things, and both will do away with the likes of you. Go ahead now and call me names. Your “wit” is ever so dull and tiresome.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:00 pmAh crap, Arabs and Muslims with opinions, freely expressing them like is done in the United States? Preposterous! We must end this at once!
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 3:04 pm
Yes, millions expressing the same opinions we are told are dangerous and cause for worry when they come out of Iran or Syria.
Nobody is saying those protests must be brough to an end, that’s your own strawman. What is worrysome is the rising anti-American sentiment that many critics of the war warned would happen has happened. The Bush administration was also warned that a democratic Iraq wouldn’t necessarily translate into an ally. They ignored both warnings.
If the Bush administration is dead-set on “staying the course”, things are going to get even uglier, assuming that is possible.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:02 pmFor Truth – I think they refer to your “logic” as “premature enunciation” – Obviously, this guy didn’t get the “talking points”:
“why would i not love seeing this when i wish i were doing the same here???”
August 4th, 2006 at 4:03 pmby flagist
Now Iraqis hate the US instead of Saddam, good job, I give it an A+.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:03 pm“I’m a uniter, not a divider”- George W. Bush
August 4th, 2006 at 4:03 pm
Mighty,
It wasn’t logic, none needed, it was just a plain fact. Sorry you gotta lump us all in with a few moonbats. Guess I need to lump you in with the WorldNetDaily crowd too?
August 4th, 2006 at 4:05 pmI wonder what Saddam, or Brezhnev, or Castro or Adolf would have done if as much free speech were expressed during their regimes?
Let me think…..I wonder if they would intitute Free Speech areas? Or maybe they would limit who could attend and ask questions? Wait a minute…. that’s was Bush has done. Sorry
When you say Culture War is that the same one that is being waged by NeoCon Chritians? Because I don’t think the people of Iraq or any muslim country would be too interested in the NeoCon Culture.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:05 pmThe people who try and play this as a ‘clash of civilizations’ or as some kind of Disneyland morality play are simpy desperate to avoid the truth: the criminal cronies of Bush – that includes James Baker – wanted to get their hand on Iraq’s oil – not to sell it so much as to prevent it from being sold. They won’t touch this topic because it reveals just how rotten the Bush White House is – pathetic apologists for the Bushes notwithstanding.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:07 pm#92
Seixon -
‘ … He expresses even more concern about the task the U.S. military might face after a victory. “What is postwar Iraq going to look like, with the Kurds and the Sunnis and the Shiites? That’s a huge question, to my mind. It really should be part of the overall campaign plan.” … ‘
‘ … The administration may be discussing the issue behind closed doors, Schwarzkopf says, but he thinks it hasn’t sufficiently explained its thinking to the world, especially its assessment of the time, people and money needed. “I would hope that we have in place the adequate resources to become an army of occupation,” he warns, “because you’re going to walk into chaos.” … ‘
Retired General Norman Schwartzkopf from “Desert Caution’ – January 28, 2003
Here is the “shade of grey ” that I do not understand about you.
Schwarzkopf is ( or at least was in 2000 ) a Republican. He campaigned with G.W. Bush on his first campaign. He has also proven himself to be a competent general who knows this region very well.
Why are you so forgiving of a president who ignored very competent advice from a member of his own party?
This mess was avoidable. Nothing but avoidable.
This is supposed to be an “MBA president” ( My condolences to the Harvard Business School . First Bush – Then Jeffrey Skilling … )
MBA’s engage in feasibility studies. If a CEO in corporate America ignores a competent feasibility study and gets thousands of people killed ( in this case – our troops ) – he’d get fired.
If he ignores a competent feasbility study and wastes several hundred billions of dollars – he’d get fired.
Why you do not invest your energy in saying “Based upon the above points … Bush should be fired” is the so-called “shade of grey” that I do understand about you.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:08 pmUS OUT OF IRAQ NOW is pretty straight forward to those of us with functioning frontal lobes…
Frontal lobes, well try using yours and guess how many insurgents are in Iraq. Do you think they are at the protest? Do you think they would say things to benefit thier idiology and not the people of Iraq? Do you believe the enemy would try to manipulate the media to lose support for the war, (AKA propaganda)?
They now have a right to protest and you are still complaining… You would have to be an idiot to think they all felt that way. I see people protest in America against America and it is always the same fanatical groups. Honestly how many protesters are insurgents?
August 4th, 2006 at 4:09 pm(Hint: While I disagree with 99% of your opinions – I do not wish you ANY HARM to come to you. That cannot be said by the extreme Islamo-wacks.)
Likewise. However, you don’t care if harm comes to Iraqis or Lebanese who have the bad luck to get in they way of an American bullet, or an Israeli bomb. That I have a problem with. You are an inverterate “ends justify the meansist”, and that never turns out well.
What is truly pathetic is the Culture WAR is underway
No, it’s really not. Between the US and EU we possess the lions share of the wealth and weapons, we can afford to be maganimous, take minor risks for enormous gain. We can afford to take terrorists bodies blows, without overeacting and inflaming further attacks.
This is rather common or garden war rethoric to get you all fired up and bought in. To accept any atrocity any body count to get the “job” done. It’s the exact same shit wheeled out every time there is a war. Jesus, it’s so obvious, I’m constantly amazed at modestly lucid people like yourself, who have really bought this stuff.
So here you are. You’ve championed and cheerlead, supported and spouted relentless apologetics. Yet still it’s a bloodbath.
To quote a writer I rather like :
The psychology behind this is kind of transparent. When you’ve got your boot on someone’s neck and you’re crushing them, you can’t say to yourself, “I’m a son of a bitch and I’m doing it for my own benefit.†So what you have to do is figure out some way of saying, “I’m doing it for their benefit.†It’s like when you punish a child. “It is for your good, I have to do it. It is my responsibility.â€
And that’s a very natural position to take when you are beating somebody with a club. I’m sure it’s probably close to universal. And I think that’s the kind of intellectual and moral content behind colonization.
That is where you are at. Accepting you are ill is part of recovery, I’d suggest you guys get started, there is a long way to go.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:15 pmWow, so now you’ve called me retarded. Three cheers for the smear merchants at TP!
Three cheers for the people like Seixon who believe war is the best solution to obtain peace and refuse to recognize a failed policy because “It’s part of a bigger plan.”
August 4th, 2006 at 4:17 pmThey now have a right to protest and you are still complaining
-wow (man, that’s one thick skull you’ve got)
I never wanted to give them the right to protest, and according to Shrub, that’s not why we went there, until, every reason he gave turned out to be a lie, then he changed his reason for attacking (”liberating”).
Are you that stupid, REALLY??? Don’t put words in my mouth, cause I NEVER complained about their protesting, I was merely pointing out the hypocrisy of forcing them to be a Democracy (to “stabilize” the redion), and all we got from it was MORE TERRORISTS and more war. Dumbass.
In other words, NEOCONS SUPPORT TERRRORISM, BECUASE THEY’RE SO GOOD AT CREATING THEM.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:19 pmI wonder what Saddam, or Brezhnev, or Castro or Adolf would have done if as much free speech were expressed during their regimes??
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 4, 2006 @ 3:57 pm
Who knows and who cares. That is not relevant to the fact that demonstrators in Iraq are chanting “Death to Israel” -I thought hating Israel was enough excuse for you to bomb Lebanon back to the stone age.
And come to think of it, do not try to sound like you know your history. You don’t. Evidence, you say? Sure, here it is:
Thank goodness our friends and allies did not desert us during our Civil War!!
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 3, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
By the way, you still haven’t told me the names of those “friends and allies”…
August 4th, 2006 at 4:20 pmThank goodness our friends and allies did not desert us during our Civil War!!
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 3, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
By the way, you still haven’t told me the names of those “friends and alliesâ€â€¦
Comment by Gregor Samsa
From what I have read Britian wanted to help the SOUTH during Americas civilwar but they didnt because public opinion in England was squarely against slavery as they had recently outlawed it themselves.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:22 pmFrom what I have read Britian wanted to help the SOUTH during Americas civilwar but they didnt because public opinion in England was squarely against slavery as they had recently outlawed it themselves.
So you could then say that Britian DID desert the South! Interesting.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:26 pmDeath to the bush regime is a much more accurate statement.
bush must be tried and convicted of mass murder.
What else is it when a man pretending to have been elected, so he is not an elected official, uses the auspices and facilities of an entire government to kill muslims in their homelands?
International murderer.
Our sadistic government must be stopped, lest we all become masochists.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:29 pmWell, at least they got the part about the Dracula teeth right!
August 4th, 2006 at 4:31 pm#135 – Brian – Do you think the Hezbollah rocket launch specialists make sure the emergency radio frequency warns the citizens of Haifa and Kiryat Shmona when incoming kadusha are scheduled?? Failing that – I’m sure they leaflet the neighbourhoods they intend to target…. Those poor, misunderstood Islamo-wacks
You assume you know my feelings – how arrogant!! I only assumed the level of youeangst because you shared your guilt and trepidation. I wish NO civilian on either side to be hurt or killed – but I realize wars have always ensnared the innocent. Who do you think is targeting civilians much more indiscriminately, Hezbollah or Israelis??? Thank goodness I don’t subscribe to the faluty logic of “subjective morality”!!
Brian, please tell me you have a few friends who are a bit more cheerful…
August 4th, 2006 at 4:32 pm“Ohlmert” is Yiddish for “Bush.”
August 4th, 2006 at 4:33 pmI supported the liberation of Iraq. I believed the establishment of a democratic state in the Arab Middle East could serve as a model for other Arab nations to emulate and thus help create a more peaceful Middle East which would no longer give birth to monsters like Osama Bin Laden and Al Qaeda. Many of my liberal or “progressive” friends disagreed, saying such a thing was not possible–that the Arab Islamic world was incapable of creating and sustaining a peaceful, civilized democracy. I thought such sentiments were too pessimistic. While I like to think I was not naive enough to believe it would be easy, I did believe a democratic Arab state was possible. I looked to history and saw democratic states emerge from the ruins of Nazi Germany and militaristic Japan. However, with each passing day, it appears that I was wrong and my friends were correct. It seems ever clearer that Islam and democacy are not compatible in the Arab Middle East. While I still support the decison to remove Saddam Hussein, I am more pessismistic than ever that the Arab Islamic world will ever be a peaceful, democratic region. Hopefully I am wrong and that in 10 years, Iraq will be what we hoped.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:33 pm“Freedom’sfighterson the march”— George W. Bush
August 4th, 2006 at 4:37 pm
You said millions disagreed, but you have no evidence other than your common sense opinion.
You are absolutely correct sir. I am stating my opinion that millions of Iraqis do not agree completely with these protestors as a fact. Call me bold, but that’s what I’m doing. Another bold opinion stated as fact: not all Americans disagree with the Bush administration. Shocking! I mean gosh, all those protestors in the streets in the US, must mean that everyone in the whole country thinks that Bush is Hitler!
Yeah, that’s your logic in full display. Pretty hilarious.
Yikes,
You put words in my mouth. Stop. Thanks.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:37 pmShut up Seixon, you dont even live here.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:38 pmI am glad to see Mighty didn’t give up on us, she is mighty skilled at her craft.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:41 pm#150 – Exley -
August 4th, 2006 at 4:46 pmIt is not the Arab world at large that may be incapable of democratic governance, but the Iraqis are not really a “nation” as we have come to know the term. The Iraqi state was forged by fiat in 1932 by the British. There are three disparate cultures, two of them diametrically oppossed to each other on a religious basis. Taking away the iron fist that kept them under control was a major geopolitical blunder. The best we can hope for is a Shiite dictatorship that crushes the Sunni revolt after we depart. Sooner the damn better.
Thanks for listening.
[...]because the leadership of those two countries stand behind those opinions, and are actively helping Hezbollah and Hamas.
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 4:31 pm
People in the gofernment in Iraq are definitely not enamoured with Israel. They have actively denounced Israel’s offensive in Lebanon.
Iraq’s vice president on Monday accused Israel of carrying out “massacres” in Lebanon, the strongest criticism yet of the Jewish state by a top official of the U.S-backed Iraqi government.
Iraqi VP accuses Israel of ‘massacres’
“I condemn these aggressions and call on the Arab League foreign ministers’ meeting in Cairo to take quick action to stop these aggressions. We call on the world to take quick stands to stop the Israeli aggression.â€
Iraqi Prime Minister Denounces Israel’s Actions
They are voicing a definite dislike for Israel. True, they haven’t said Israel should be “wiped off the map” but their words are as strong as they can possibly be under an American occupation.
The Middle East is rife with hate of the USA and especially Israel. That’s been the case for years and years. So what’s the news?
What’s news is that US troops are over there. For years and years that was not the case. It is now.
It would be crazy if there weren’t Iraqis that hated the USA. After all, we invaded their country and have killed thousands of their people. Without looking at that in a proper context, it’s easy to get hate of us out of that.
I believe the context is irrelevant for the Iraqi father digging out the bodies of his family from under the rubble of what used to be his house.
So, just so I am absolutely clear of your point here: Are you arguing the chants of “Death to Israel” are not cause for worry?
August 4th, 2006 at 4:52 pmFor Truth,
Shut up Seixon, you dont even live here.
Ah, so now a person’s location determines whether or not they should be allowed to discourse with their own countrymen. How progressive. Hear that Brian Coughlan? You need to shut up because you don’t live in the US. Well, according to For Truth anyways.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:53 pmAlthough all of our opinions are valuable, to get a reality checi, carefully examine the poll at this site,
August 4th, 2006 at 4:55 pmhttp://www.usatoday.com/news/world/iraq/2004-04-28-poll-cover_x.htm
click on the link in the article (Graphic: Iraqis surveyed)
Very interesting stuff.
RUCerious,
Your point is quite valid. But I hate to believe this statement — “Taking away the iron fist that kept them under control was a major geopolitical blunder” — means that the only way that stability can be achieved in the Arab Islamic world by having brutal monsters like Saddam Hussein rules over Arab states. But at this point, I must admit I am perplexed. I really don’t know what the answer is to achieving a peaceful, civilized Arab Islamic region. The liberation of Iraq presented a golden opportunity for the people of Iraq to create a democratic, civilized society. A brutal oppressor was removed, billions and billions of economic aid and development was poured into Iraq, the U.S. military provided security as a new democratic government was attempted to be established. And what has happened? Iraq has squandered this opportunity and fallen back into brutal civil conflict between Islamic sects, killing eachother over who holds the superior view of Allah and Mohammed. It’s all quite depressing. But what is the answer? Do we abandon the hope of seeing a democratic Arab Islamic world and instead throw our support to brutal dictators who can keep a lid on the sectarian violence and Islamist extremism? That thought is also depressing.
August 4th, 2006 at 4:55 pmExley,
Getting off the oil would surely produce more peace in that region. Once that region becomes geopolitically insignificant to the rest of the world, folks over there can go back to living in tent, throwing rocks at each other. Take away the resources, nothing to wage a war with.
And I do think the middle easterners are not ready for Democracy, they want to be in a state of perpetual war, just look at the last 3000 years, has it ever stopped? Maybe guys like Saddam know something about managing countries like Iraq that we don’t.
Plunking Isreal down in the middle of it all in 1948 sure didn’t help matters.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:01 pmGregor,
People in the gofernment in Iraq are definitely not enamoured with Israel. They have actively denounced Israel’s offensive in Lebanon.
As have many other world leaders, what’s your point? Iraqi officials aren’t allowed to have the same opinions as say… Spanish ones? Norwegian ones?
Iraq’s vice president on Monday accused Israel of carrying out “massacres†in Lebanon, the strongest criticism yet of the Jewish state by a top official of the U.S-backed Iraqi government.
Iraqi VP accuses Israel of ‘massacres’
Again, many people have died in Lebanon, so “massacre” is probably not all too strong a word to be using, and I’m sure it’s not the most controversial that has been used by world leaders, is it? Doubt it.
They are voicing a definite dislike for Israel. True, they haven’t said Israel should be “wiped off the map†but their words are as strong as they can possibly be under an American occupation.
Of course they voice a dislike for Israel – it’s written in their damn religious texts. The Koran says that no Muslim should be a friend with a Jew, less he be seen as a Jew. The Koran says that Jews are double-crossers and cheats. It would seem like a miracle for these guys NOT to dislike Israel.
In any case, as I pointed out, the current Iraqi government is not shoveling weapons and money to Hamas or Hezbollah, like Syria and Iran have been doing for decades. Until they do, Iraq’s leaders can have all the opinions in the world on Israel they want.
What’s news is that US troops are over there. For years and years that was not the case. It is now.
Where were you during 1991? The years after? We’ve had troops there for a long, long time. Perhaps not as many as now, but they were there. Who was it that Hezbollah killed in the 1980s? Was it or was it not around 200 American soldiers?
I believe the context is irrelevant for the Iraqi father digging out the bodies of his family from under the rubble of what used to be his house.
True, but the same could be said of all those civilians who were bombed in Japan by nukes in 1945. Hate is understandable in these situations, but only when the actions are not seen in a broader context.
So, just so I am absolutely clear of your point here: Are you arguing the chants of “Death to Israel†are not cause for worry?
As I already said, the sentiment of “death to Israel” is hardly new anywhere in the Middle East, so why worry all of a sudden that Iraqis have chosen to protest about it when Israel is bombing the hell out of Lebanon?
It is written into the religion of Islam to despise and distrust Jews. It seems that some people here are completely unaware of this and pretend that these sentiments crept up overnight.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:03 pmmeans that the only way that stability can be achieved in the Arab Islamic world by having brutal monsters like Saddam Hussein rules over Arab states.
Exley there is an answer. Gentle pressure and a good example go a long way. Spain, Portugal and Greece all military dictatorships in living memory and converted to democracy without a shot being fired.
There is an even better answer. Binding global law which punishes individuals not entire peoples. Roughly 60% of the global population now live in democratic regimes. We need a replay of Europe from 70’s – 90’s, but now global. Gradually winning the moral argument, drawing the noose tighter around the really unpleasant regimes and punishing the individuals who step seriously out of line. Boosting the elements of moderation at every possible juncture, regardless of their political stripe, as long as they accept the principle of democratic governance you are in. If you not, you are a pariah.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:04 pm[...] Think Progress [...]
August 4th, 2006 at 5:04 pmIt is written into the religion of Islam to despise and distrust Jews. It seems that some people here are completely unaware of this and pretend that these sentiments crept up overnight.
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 5:03 pm
Have you read the Bible lately? Full to brimming with the exact same nonsense. Moderate, rational Christians just tune it out, as do moderate muslims.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:05 pmEXLey
There will never be a Democratic Islamic-Arab world over there. And we only care about that due to the oil in the ground. If there was no oil or Isreal, they would all be just like Africa, no threat to anyone else, eating each other alive, and the US would be on its merry way. Get over the thought of having happy Arabs in a democracy, just because there are some exceptions doesn’t mean anything. Places like Dubai are a mirage, and the Saudis like to play pretend friends due to all the money they make off of the US, they are slighly smarter than their neighbors. The minute Saudi Oil is dried up, or no longer needed, what do you think Saudi relations would be like?
August 4th, 2006 at 5:08 pmGross, Seixon is back. How demented must someone be to hang out with people who don’t respect or like him?
My new school offers classes in Arabic language. There several students taking the course. Children in a red, Bible-belt state are learning to speak Arabic, Mandarin Chinese and French, among others. I love the irony.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:11 pmThe Middle East has been violent for over 5,000 years. Like a man who couldn’t find oil in Texas could change that with more violence? I know the neocons are ignornant, but this has been just plain ridiculous.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:14 pmNeocons see people marching in the streets and say, wow they are voicing their opinion and not getting shot. Mission accomplished.
Good! Job done. Can the troops come home now?
August 4th, 2006 at 5:16 pmBrian Coughlan,
I accept that gentle pressure and good examples do and would help. But is it enough? For 11 years, the UN passed resolution after resolution and imposed economic sanctions against Saddam Hussein to exert pressure on that regime and much of the world (including I am sure many of those who now frequent this site) lambasted the UN and the US for “starving children,” etc. (We know now that was false and it was Saddam Hussein who was diverting foreign aid and “Oil-for-Food” for his own personal use).
But I agree with you about “boosting the elements of moderation at every possible juncture” as we did the communist world in Europe in the 1970s and 80s. Carter and Reagan launched many non-lethal covert activities to aid anti-communist and democratic forces in Eastern Europe (providing printing presses, etc.) so that these democratic forces could disseminate their message.
The big distinction though between our actions in Europe in the 1970s-80s to defeat communism and the current struggle agains fundamentalist Islamism is that no matter how evil the Soviets and the Eastern Bloc were, at the very least, they never flew hijacked civilian airliners into office buildings in downtown Manhattan, killing thousands in the span of minutes. I don’t know if what worked against one type of enemy (the Soviets) would work in this current struggle. Do we have that kind of time? For another 9/11 is quite possible, and the next time it could be much, much worse.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:22 pmAs have many other world leaders, what’s your point? Iraqi officials aren’t allowed to have the same opinions as say… Spanish ones? Norwegian ones?
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 5:03 pm
::sigh:: Spain, Norway are not occupied by the US. Please.
This is a government that has the US seal of approval. For them to openly criticise Israel is to bite the hand that feeds them. That is not the case with Spain or Norway.
Has the Norwegian PM called Israel’s actions a “massacre”?
Also, you missed the Iraqi VP saying that Iraqis are “incited in brotherhood and solidarity”. I don’t know of any a Spanish or Norwegian high-ranking official to state anything like that.
We’ve had troops there for a long, long time. Perhaps not as many as now, but they were there.
I meant over there in Iraq. That was not the case before.
Hate is understandable in these situations, but only when the actions are not seen in a broader context.
Again, context is irrelevant to those being bombed, maimed, and tortured. Call it an irrational reaction. But as you pointed out, hate is understandable and will happen -which is the bottom line.
The comparison with either Germany or Japan does not hold up -those two countries officiallly surrendered and their leaders called for the fighters to lay down their arms.
so why worry all of a sudden that Iraqis have chosen to protest about it when Israel is bombing the hell out of Lebanon?
Well, if you don’t like what we worry about, you don’t have to stick around, you know. Since when are you so worried about what we think?
It is written into the religion of Islam to despise and distrust Jews.
It is written in the Christian Bible women are impure during that time of the month. are all Christians a bunch of misogynistic swines?
It seems that some people here are completely unaware of this and pretend that these sentiments crept up overnight.
That wasn’t my perception. Again, people are chanting “Death to America” when they (supposedly) should be grateful for the “gift” of freedom they were given -and in contradiction with the Bush administration narrative of Iraq. That is the point (I think) of the thread.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:25 pmFor another 9/11 is quite possible, and the next time it could be much, much worse.
Comment by exley — August 4, 2006 @ 5:22 pm
I couldn’t agree with you more. And I wonder what $300 billion and 2600 soldiers still alive could have bought us in terms of homeland security…
We wasted our resources on being offensive instead of using them to establish a viable defense… And I hope that that awareness is finally getting through to most Americans, even those who voted for Bush in 2004.
We need to be a united America again soon, or we won’t be an America at all.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:28 pmSeixon,
Ever get into Norwegian politics, just wonderin’.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:28 pmHave you read the Koran? Obviously not, as you are horribly ignorant to its contents. I’ll dig up all the texts from the Koran that back up what I have just said, but as I have just exposed you as the liar you are once again, I’m not expecting you to stick around.
Comment by Seixon
YOU asked for it….
005.018
YUSUFALI: (Both) the Jews and the Christians say: “We are sons of Allah, and his beloved.” Say: “Why then doth He punish you for your sins? Nay, ye are but men,- of the men he hath created: He forgiveth whom He pleaseth, and He punisheth whom He pleaseth: and to Allah belongeth the dominion of the heavens and the earth, and all that is between: and unto Him is the final goal (of all)”
-QUR’AN
Translation for the stupid (Jews and Christians are not above everybody else… they are men just like everybody else…)
005.051
YUSUFALI: O ye who believe! take not the Jews and the Christians for your friends and protectors: They are but friends and protectors to each other. And he amongst you that turns to them (for friendship) is of them. Verily Allah guideth not a people unjust.
-QUR’AN
Translation for the stupid (Jews and Christians say they are your friends, but really only look out for their own.)
005.069
YUSUFALI: Those who believe (in the Qur’an), those who follow the Jewish (scriptures), and the Sabians and the Christians,- any who believe in Allah and the Last Day, and work righteousness,- on them shall be no fear, nor shall they grieve.
-QUR’AN
Translation for the stupid (Muslims, Jews, Sabians, and Christians all are believers in GOD and righteousness will have no fear nor problems) … NOTE: except for when all these people kill each other all the time
005.046
YUSUFALI: And in their footsteps We sent Jesus the son of Mary, confirming the Law that had come before him: We sent him the Gospel: therein was guidance and light, and confirmation of the Law that had come before him: a guidance and an admonition to those who fear Allah.
-QUR’AN
Translation for the stupid (Jesus came to confirm the Law of GOD and provide guidance for believers in GOD)
005.078
YUSUFALI: Curses were pronounced on those among the Children of Israel who rejected Faith, by the tongue of David and of Jesus the son of Mary: because they disobeyed and persisted in excesses.
-QUR’AN
Translation for the stupid (Jews cursed Jesus and rejected the Faith of David and Jesus because they disobeyed GOD and lived in excess)
August 4th, 2006 at 5:29 pmYup, the half Trillion dollars and 2500 dead servicepeople could have been used to seal and secure our borders here in the US. “Fighting them over there” nonsense doesn’t fly anymore.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:30 pmwhen when how?
August 4th, 2006 at 5:34 pmIn other words, if you’re friends with a Jew or a Christian, you are no longer a Muslim, but a Jew or a Christian.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:36 pmIn other words, if you’re friends with a Jew or a Christian, you are no longer a Muslim, but a Jew or a Christian.
Comment by Seixon
Sorry I already covered that one above… actually what it says is that Jews and Christians only pretend to be your friends, but really only look out for their own… read it again.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:37 pm“Fighting them over there†nonsense doesn’t fly anymore.
Comment by For Truth — August 4, 2006 @ 5:30 pm
I don’t think ‘fighting’ offensively ever does fly. But I know it’s the neocon way of life. Why I think it’s absurd when the Evangelicals tell those of us who reject religion that we are ‘evil’.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:37 pmI don’t think ‘fighting’ offensively ever does fly. But I know it’s the neocon way of life. Why I think it’s absurd when the Evangelicals tell those of us who reject religion that we are ‘evil’.
Comment by unbelievable
Ya I think I read that in the Bible somewhere…
neoconithians 12:31 …
And then from the crowd before Him a man said, “Jesus! Jesus! I hear what you have said, but I do not think I still believe.” and then Jesus said unto him, “Then you are going to HEEELLLLL!!!”
August 4th, 2006 at 5:40 pmYou may be an athiest, but your onesided smear of Islam is typical of a Christian Fundamentalist.
Onesided smear? Ehhh. Tell me where the Bible says that you are a Muslim if you befriend a Muslim. Tell me where the Bible says that Muslims are treacherous.
Jews and Muslims follow some of the same stuff, such as what they are forbidden to eat and such. There are many similarities with these religious texts, but I haven’t seen any parts of the Bible that mirror the ones I saw in the Koran.
Let’s not forget that Islam is a lot younger than Christianity and Judaism, and thus naturally there are many more Muslims that follow their religion more devoutly than is the case for the others.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:42 pmOnesided smear? Ehhh. Tell me where the Bible says that you are a Muslim if you befriend a Muslim. Tell me where the Bible says that Muslims are treacherous.
Jews and Muslims follow some of the same stuff, such as what they are forbidden to eat and such. There are many similarities with these religious texts, but I haven’t seen any parts of the Bible that mirror the ones I saw in the Koran.
Let’s not forget that Islam is a lot younger than Christianity and Judaism, and thus naturally there are many more Muslims that follow their religion more devoutly than is the case for the others.
Comment by Seixon
They just posted all the qoutes you just asked for…. scroll up a few.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:43 pmIt would be nice if someone commented on who put Bush and his idiots in office – the US voter. Couldn’t anyone back in 1999 see what a total incompetant he was? Guess not since he was voted into office – twice.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:44 pmSorry I already covered that one above… actually what it says is that Jews and Christians only pretend to be your friends, but really only look out for their own… read it again.
You might want to read it again yourself, because it says that if you are a friend of theirs, you are of them.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:44 pmWell, For Truth, I can’t really agree with you here –”Fighting them over there†nonsense doesn’t fly anymore.” I fully believed and still support the invasion of Afghanistan in October 2001. And actually, I still think it has enhanced our security to remove Saddam Hussein. I have no problem with taking the fight to Al Qaeda and the terrorists in their neck of the woods. I am simply saying that I am not sure I still believe that once we removed Saddam we should have stuck around and try to democratize Iraq. For that seems clearly not to be working.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:44 pmTell me where the Bible says that Muslims are treacherous.
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 5:42 pm
Both the Old and the New Testament were written long before Muhammad was born.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:44 pmYikes,
You put words in my mouth. Stop. Thanks.
Seixon, a week or so ago you argued that going into Iraq was part of a bigger plan that I was apparantly blind too. So now you don’t believe it’s part of a bigger plan?
I say a again, you refuse to recognize a failed policy because “It’s part of a bigger plan.†I’m not a reporter so the quotes were meant as a paraphrase. If you can’t take that then go back to the ocean with your yardstick.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:45 pmYou might want to read it again yourself, because it says that if you are a friend of theirs, you are of them.
Comment by Seixon
Ok sorry I didnt get what you were saying… yes we both agree.. all those religious types are bigots.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:46 pmBlueDog49, Believe me, I hold no brief for the leadership of Saudi Arabia or any Islamic extremist. I would be quite happy to see the leadership of Saudi Arabia disappear from the face of the earth tomorrow. And that is one of the reasons I initially supported the goal of democratizing Iraq. I had hoped that a democratic, civilized, and peaceful Iraq would serve as a model for Arabs in the the Islamic world and inspire “regular” citizens of those countries to demand freedom and democracy from their leaders.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:49 pmWe should have pulled a false flag operation over there, convincing Isreal that Saddam attacked them. Get them all fighting each other, then walk in when the dust settles.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:50 pmI want a government that pulls false flag operations “over there” so we don’t have to pull them “over here”.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:52 pmGregor,
Both the Old and the New Testament were written long before Muhammad was born.
You know, that’s a damn good point! Thus what I said was obviously correct… :)
Yikes,
Seixon, a week or so ago you argued that going into Iraq was part of a bigger plan that I was apparantly blind too. So now you don’t believe it’s part of a bigger plan?
That’s not what I was referring to here, it was the other things you said and the way you said it.
I say a again, you refuse to recognize a failed policy because “It’s part of a bigger plan.†I’m not a reporter so the quotes were meant as a paraphrase. If you can’t take that then go back to the ocean with your yardstick.
A failed policy? Look, things usually get worse before they get better. I had my tonsils removed last year – let me tell you, it was definitely worse before it got better. In fact, it was HELL for a few weeks after I removed them, much worse than when I actually still had them. Much, much worse. But after those weeks were over, I haven’t gotten sick because of them since.
In other words, many things in life must get worse before they get better. I see that as the case with Iraq because removing Saddam Hussein would for all intents and purposes open up a can of worms because of their new freedom. Freedom isn’t always used wisely, as we have now witnessed. Does that mean we shouldn’t have given it to them at all? Of course not. Living in the status quo simply because it satisfies our own needs for “stability” while ignoring people being oppressed and enslaved by dictators does not uproot the real problems that are there.
We have now uprooted one of these problems, and many things will happen before things get better for everyone in Iraq.
Yet as I continue to point out, to the dismay of most people at TP, the Iraqis themselves feel that removing Saddam Hussein was worth it, even taking all the struggles into account. Thus, I side with the Iraqis on this. You guys can do whatever the hell you want.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:53 pmTell me where the Bible says that Muslims are treacherous.
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 5:42 pm
Both the Old and the New Testament were written long before Muhammad was born.
Good point Gregor. You might add the old and new testament, as well as the koran were written by men and edited by men.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:53 pmneoconithians 12:31 …
Comment by Gerald Gibson — August 4, 2006 @ 5:40 pm
You are a riot!
No wonder The Daily Show has been 10 years strong while O’Reilly is having to get bad publicity to get much attention at all… :)
August 4th, 2006 at 5:57 pmInvestors wanted: to purchase many flags and matches for a fire sale in Baghdad.
August 4th, 2006 at 5:58 pmHow would you expect person with a brain to react to “w’z greatest edventure”? The repercussions from this worldly catastrophy will remain for years to come. I cringe when I think what “our generation” has left for the young to pick apart and clean up. This whole idealogy that “we” have to be in everyone’s face has created a monumental disaster. I wish the “pukes” would have listened to just a few suggestions but neither did Hitler.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:03 pmYou know, that’s a damn good point! Thus what I said was obviously correct… :)
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 5:53 pm
And yet you were trying to ask for proof of something that cannot be proven. Was that an attempt at being clever? If so, it failed. It was rather dumb of you to even ask in the first place.
All three religions (Judaism, Christianity, and Islam) are based on -essentially- the same core set of books. They all worship the same god, Abraham’s god. There are obvious differences but it should not be a surprise to anyone that they all preach intolerance (i.e., distrust of non-believers). Islam is not unique in that respect.
It was not Muslims who prosecuted the Jewish people for centuries, and they had nothing to do with the largest mass slaughter of Jews in history.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:03 pmOpps typed Sush and meant Bush. But I think you all knew that.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:06 pmAnd that is one of the reasons I initially supported the goal of democratizing Iraq.
Initially? Do you no longer support it?
I had hoped that a democratic, civilized, and peaceful Iraq would serve as a model for Arabs in the the Islamic world and inspire “regular†citizens of those countries to demand freedom and democracy from their leaders.
Comment by exley — August 4, 2006 @ 5:49 pm
I’m not a big fan of “do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” It assumes we all want or need the same things. There’s a very different culture over there. And what if they had the bigger military and instead decided to free us from the perils of Democracy and intriduce us to a Dictatorship because they thought we didn’t really know well enough for ourselves?
Unless people are revolting, giving them something they didn’t request is just as bad as getting something you don’t want…
August 4th, 2006 at 6:11 pmBasically, to the followers of most religions, anyone who does not believe what they believe is an unbeliever, an infidel or an atheist…
August 4th, 2006 at 6:16 pmAs I say, Muslims and Christians are different kinds of believers, not unbelievers. There is a difference between a Jew and an atheist for Muslims. An atheist is a true unbeliever, a Jew is someone they see as having twisted the word of God, although they still believe in the same God.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:19 pm#135 – “Likewise. However, you don’t care if harm comes to Iraqis or Lebanese who have the bad luck to get in they way of an American bullet, or an Israeli bomb….”
Comment by Brian
*******Brian – YOU don’t KNOW how I feel…(truth is – you aren’t EVEN close!) Perhaps you’ll glean why conservatives think many progs are exceedingly arrogant – too many progs assume so much with too few facts.
“No, it’s really not.”
******This opinion of yours is SIMPLY your opinion. I just finished reading a book Mr. Aphrodite read almost 20 years ago, “The Arab Mind” by Raphael Patai – and when you consider what extre
“Between the US and EU we possess the lions share of the wealth and weapons, we can afford to be maganimous,….” – Tell you what, Brian – you tell YOUR government to rollover and play dead…
“…..take minor risks for enormous gain.” – What enormous gains – clicking your heels together and HOPING not to be blown up???
“We can afford to take terrorists bodies blows, without overeacting and inflaming further attacks.”…..The ME mentality views such a manuver as a shark which smells blood in the water…Thank GOD for your fellow countrymen and women YOU are not in a position to shape diplomatic strategy….
I think you have very sweet intentions – very naive, but very sweet….
August 4th, 2006 at 6:23 pmAs I say, Muslims and Christians are different kinds of believers, not unbelievers.
Comment by Seixon — August 4, 2006 @ 6:19 pm
That might be technically true, from an atheist perspective. It is not so if you are either a Christian or a Muslim.
For Christians, Muslis are nonbelievers because Muslims do not accept the core tenets of Christianity. The opposite is true also.
There is a difference between a Jew and an atheist for Muslims.
The same is true in Christianity. An atheist is the worst of all unbelievers. Jews and Muslims can be converted to the only “true” faith.
An atheist is a true unbeliever, a Jew is someone they see as having twisted the word of God, although they still believe in the same God.
This is technically true, but for a true believer this difference is irrelevant. Atheist and heretics are not too far apart.
Many Christians don’t even know they, the Jews, and the Muslims worship the same god. It could very well be another god, for all they care, because Muslims and Jews do not accept Christ as the son of god and the Messiah.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:27 pm#228 — “And what if they had the bigger military and instead decided to free us from the perils of Democracy and intriduce us to a Dictatorship because they thought we didn’t really know well enough for ourselves?”
Unfortunately, Unbelievable, they already did try something like this. No, they don’t have a bigger military, but they are clever and ruthless and used all their cunning to send us a message by inflicting a terrible wound on this country five years ago.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:30 pmChristianity,Islam,Buddhism are all part of the same teaching, a triad, with different paths to God(ultimately within).
Christians actively seeks God
Muslims passively surrender to God
Buddhists reconcile finding God here and now
Seek the kindom as a Christian,give yourself to God as a Muslim,find your new companion in Buddhist meditation.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:31 pm[...] was quite nice but the reality of what Iraq IS NOW is quite the opposite [...]
August 4th, 2006 at 6:31 pmBlurPuP – Would you mind telling me how many “hits” we’ve taken here at home since 9/11?? And how many potential terror threats have been thwarted due to intelligence?? Now if we could just have sealed the borderS a bit tighter to keep the wackos OUT….
August 4th, 2006 at 6:39 pmComment by Eno44
If only…
August 4th, 2006 at 6:50 pmMighty Moron; I’m STILL waiting for you to name “our friends and allies who did not desert us in our civil war”. C’mon, you’ve been caught redhanded in spewing BS. Own up to it like a man.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:50 pmClue MA: start your search for the wackos with Bush/Cheney bumper stickers and then proceed right on up to the Fools On the Hill.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:53 pm#239 MA maybe you don’t care about your allies, but the fact of a 300% increase in terrorism around the world NOT including Iraq, including hits on Spain, Indonesia, India and the 51st state of Britain since 2003 should mke you care. The US has got by lucky. Oh and you can bet those 300% increased attacks on allies mean something to them and they know whose policies contributed to that increase.
August 4th, 2006 at 6:53 pmBut… but… but…
I’d always heard that once we had them by the balls, their hearts and minds were supposed to follow?!
August 4th, 2006 at 7:11 pmhe White House is playing down the demonstration in the streets of Baghdad.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:18 pmThey are downplaying the numbers and they are saying it is a demonstration of solidarity with the Lenanese!
My guess is that will be the Fox version of the news.
MA is upset today — she can’t find a good excuse for the mass demonstration in Iraq, so she is blasting Sheehan and bring Chavez into it also.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:21 pmShhh! Let MA sulk quietly in her room. Don’t bother her. Don’t respond to her cries – she only wants sympathy.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:22 pm=======================
How many hits have we taken here in the last thirty years?
August 4th, 2006 at 7:24 pm#246 Marie; Mighty Moron will come to the conclusion that it’s all Bill Clinton’s fault along with all them hate-America liburals.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:24 pmMighty A: “Would you mind telling me how many “hits†we’ve taken here at home since 9/11??”
Now THAT’s what I would call “naive” and rather short-sighted. Our State Dept. and CIA are well on record now that our current foreign policy has created far more terrorists than we’ve killed. Both organizations write that it’s not if, but when on another attack on our soil. If you measure success that way, you must believe that any successful attack will mean failure. In addition, by that reasoning, you should be talking about how good the Clinton administration was. After all, 30 days into his administration, the WTC was bombed. He prevented another attack from outside terrorist forces for the entire rest of his 2 terms — 7 years. That’s longer than Bush has gone without an attack, so, by your reasoning, Clinton was more successful.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:28 pmAnd now, because of Bush’s foreign policy, the FBI must contend with Hezzbolah sleeper cells in addition to al Qeda sleeper cells. This is progress???!! This is “keeping us safe???”
August 4th, 2006 at 7:33 pmOne more thing about Clinton. Even though the WTC was bombed by radical Shiites just 30 days into his first term, there is no record of anyone in the Clinton administration ever blaming the Bush 41 administration for anything related to that terrorist attack. And, everyone associated with that attack was caught, tried and sent to jail by the Clinton Justice Dept.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:38 pmAnother War on Terrorism stumper: which President actually tried to kill Osama bin Laden? Hint: he’s not a “compassionate conservative.”
August 4th, 2006 at 7:40 pmMost redneck republicans will probably think that’s cubans celebrating castro’s hospital visit.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:42 pm1999: Security adviser: “Mr. President, we’ve got some blinking red lights on possible terrorist attacks on our soil.”
President Clinton: “I want the head of the FBI, NSA and CIA in my office each week for an update. I want everyone to start “shaking the trees.” Maybe something will fall out.”
2001: Security advisor: “Mr. President, we have a briefing for you called “bin Laden determined to attack in U.S.”
President Bush: “Alright, you covered your ass, now get outta here.”
August 4th, 2006 at 7:44 pm#245 LOL Marie. What about Castro? Can we talk about Castro now?
#250 Bluedog – I was thinking that 2500 soldiers and 15,000 maimed would count as a ‘hit’ – to their families if not to MA and Chimpy
August 4th, 2006 at 7:44 pmGood one, Terry. Evidently for MA, 2500 deaths and 15,000 maimed is just the cost of doing business.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:47 pmIt’s been long enough to see how conservative libertarians fight a war on terror. If you need more security at ports, chemical plants and nuclear facilities, you ask the corporations that run these facilities to beef up security. They don’t do it. Then, you ask again, real nicely this time. They still don’t do it. And THAT’show conservative libertarians fight the war on terror.
August 4th, 2006 at 7:53 pmUnfortunately, Unbelievable, they already did try something like this. No, they don’t have a bigger military, but they are clever and ruthless and used all their cunning to send us a message by inflicting a terrible wound on this country five years ago.
Comment by exley — August 4, 2006 @ 6:30 pm
Just a handful of Saudi Arabian extremists, not Iraq.
And so we got to see how it felt. To me, that is worse to knowingly and alertly do to others what you consider reprehensible. I find our actions in Iraq immoral.
You didn’t say whether or not you still support the invasion of Iraq. If you knew that what you know now, would you still have supported it? And/or do you maybe understand why liberals were and are against it?
August 4th, 2006 at 8:53 pm#241 – Dear (aptly named) Ho – Respond to NVA?? I don’t think so….
#243 – “MA maybe you don’t care about your allies, but the fact of a 300% increase in terrorism around the world NOT including Iraq, including hits on Spain, Indonesia, India and the 51st state of Britain since 2003 should mke you care.”
*****Dear Turtle – Many terror-wacks are like dominoes – the easiest fall first. Do you think if our wonderful allies didn’t have quite the PC attitude about letting every Osama, Abdul and Saad immigrate – THEY might have had fewer problems?? And for their home-grown wack-jobs – we have our share – but intelligence is improving…. But I do appreciate how cleverly you blame US foreign policy for the murderous and indiscrminate behaviour of Islamo-wacks…So PC!!!
Have a great weekend!!!
August 4th, 2006 at 8:56 pmBuddhists reconcile finding God here and now
Comment by Eno44 — August 4, 2006 @ 6:31 pm
I worked with the daughter-in-law of a Zen master in San Francisco. He said that Buddhists do not believe that spending time deciding or reconciling whether or not there is a god is a waste of the here and now which is certain. Many Buddhists are therefore atheists in terms of a monotheistic god that the three headed Christo-Islamo-Judeo sect worships. It does go against the logic of Buddhism to worship something that cannot be proven…
However, I am all for meditation.
August 4th, 2006 at 8:58 pmIt looks to me like they’re trying to thank us for our gift of freedom.
August 4th, 2006 at 9:06 pm#259, Ubelievable,
Actually, if you would read all of my postings on this particular thread you would see that I have very clearly stated that I did and still do support 1) the invasion of Afghanistan and 2) the initial military action in Iraq and the deposing of Saddam Hussein. Both actions, in my opinion, have helped make the American homeland safer. What I AM beginning to question is whether or not an Arab Islamic people can create and sustain a peaceful, democratic, and civilzed society. After the deposing of Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi people had a golden opportunity to transform their nation into a democratic, peaceful republic that would not only benefit themselves and their children, but also serve as a model for the peoples of the rest of the Arab world. Yet, the Iraqis seem (so far) to have taken this opportunity and squandered it, choosing instead to indulge in a sad and pathetic battle between Islamic sects over who has a better understanding of Allah and the Prophet. It is terrifically sad, not only for the Iraqis, but the Middle East, and the world as a whole.
And I must take exception to your statement, “And so we got to see how it felt.” That statement reeks of the suggestion that the United States and those who were slaughtered on 9/11 deserved their horrific fate and that the United States has ever commited a similar atrocity. I would submit to you that the United States has never slit the throats of innocent flight attendants and a crew aboard civilain airliners and hijacked those planes and flown them into office buildings, slaughtering thousands over a matter of minutes.
I more than understand that there are differences of opinion and politics over issues such as Social Security privitization, the Kyoto Treaty, and even the war in Iraq. What I cannot understand is any suggestion that the 9/11 atrocity was in any way understandable or justifiable.
August 4th, 2006 at 10:25 pmSince Iraq is now our 51st state, and with rethuglicans (especially Frist) pushing for a flag burning amendment to the constitution, does this mean that Iraqis would be charged for burning the U.S. flag? Just wondering.
August 4th, 2006 at 10:29 pmsignificentlt sb significently
August 4th, 2006 at 10:42 pmToo f**kin funny.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:11 pmGeorge W Bush… The great uniter! still too f**kin funny.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:13 pmDemocracy at its best!
Hey seixon – Muslims don’t hate Jews, they hate Isreal and it’s land grab policies. Get your facts straight. You don’t know jack sh*t about Islam, it you did, you wouldn’t be making false statements about the Koran.
Not only can you not trust Republicans to tell the truth, you can’t trust trolls from Norway to tell the truth. Either shut up or go enlist and fight in Iran.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:24 pmI more than understand that there are differences of opinion and politics over issues such as Social Security privitization, the Kyoto Treaty, and even the war in Iraq. What I cannot understand is any suggestion that the 9/11 atrocity was in any way understandable or justifiable.
exley,
when you can understand that it was not what you think it was, you will be set free!
i can’t convince you, and no one else can. but, when you reach it yourself–if you do–then, your head-scratching about why people thing such a ‘horrendous thing about america’ will change to a world-view where you say to yourself, ‘god, i feel dirty and awful for being an american–9.11 was an elegant statement of just how awful america is, to the rest of the world’
i don’t want to argue or fuss about this. i just hope that you read this and give it some thought someday…
best of luck.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:25 pmI must agree with the protestors, I don’t see any difference between Bush and Saddam. Both are war criminals.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:25 pmSeixon:
We liberals were predicting before the U.S.l invaded Iraq that it would destabilize the Middle East, and that it would not achieve any of its stated objectives. WE WERE RIGHT. It annoys me no end that we are still not given credence for this. The neocons were wrong in everyone of their prognostications, and anyone with any understanding of human nature, and capacity for empathy, could have predicted that they would be wrong.
“In other words, many things in life must get worse before they get better. I see that as the case with Iraq because removing Saddam Hussein would for all intents and purposes open up a can of worms because of their new freedom. Freedom isn’t always used wisely, as we have now witnessed. Does that mean we shouldn’t have given it to them at all? Of course not. Living in the status quo simply because it satisfies our own needs for “stability†while ignoring people being oppressed and enslaved by dictators does not uproot the real problems that are there.”
Sure things will probably get better eventually, as people get tired of killing each other and find some sort of peace for a while, at least. There is always ebb and flow in events. Nonetheless, that is a lame excuse for what is currently going on, just as your posts about the demonstrators not representing the opinions of all Iraqis, were lame excuses.
It was not our right to remove Saddam. He was a brutal dictator, but it was not our right. Also, he was already getting on in years, and was spending most of his time writing romance novels. The sanctions were working. Although I would have preferred that there be some way of keeping them from impacting the average Iraqi so heavily.
You don’t make a “gift” of democracy. Again, this is NOT our right. We can be a role model (although that model is more than a bit tarnished at this point). We can use various trade carrots and sticks. But democracy imposed at the point of a gun is no democracy.
What you conservatives refuse to recognize is that
Unlike some of you on this thread, I don’t believe that the Iraqis or the Arab world in general are incapable of democracy. In Iran there are Internet cafes and the young people who participate in those don’t much care for their current theocratic government. Let them work on getting a more secular and democratic government in Iran and don’t interfere with it. The Arab countries need to work out some sort of representative governments on their own. They will do so as it’s in the interests of the majority of people. They are not subhuman. They are intelligent.
Unfortunately, given their history, in countries like Saudi Arabia, it will probably take the form of a bloody uprising against the Sauds. But they have to work it out for themselves.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:26 pmit was not only the ‘evil liberals’ that knew this was going to happen, patrick buchanan, a true conservative and not a kooky neoconservative, said this in March 2003
August 4th, 2006 at 11:33 pm
Hear ye, hear ye: Let it be known to all posters that Mighty Moron has been called out on some bs she/he/it spewed on another thread yesterday;
When I demanded that she/he/it name alleged friends and allies repeatedly, MA does NOT want to respond. Does not want to talk about it. Just a reichwing troll espousing the official party platitudes.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:39 pm
#277 – MA skewered again for an ignoramus – Ann “Canada fought in Vietnam” Coulter knows more about US history than MA.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:42 pmAs Rumsfeld would say “Oh, my goodness.” I can’t imagaine how the parents or spouses of the service men and women feel now.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:45 pmone sept 11 in Chile the US overthrew the democratically elected gov’t and 30 000 people were rounded up and summarily executed with in a month ! After unsuccessfully atempting to overthrow the gov’t of Iran the 3rd time ,the US armed saddam to the teeth in a war with Iran that killed roughly a million ! But thats different isn’t Exley
August 4th, 2006 at 11:47 pm#278 – HCM,
August 4th, 2006 at 11:47 pmThere’s no ”h’ in tread. What tank were you considering?
#260 Actually MA, you can deny it all you want, but the London bombers of 7-7-2005 stated that they were driven to commit murder by their revulsion of US foriegn policy and the occupation of Iraq. Look it up, I state facts not conjecture. If the US had not invaded Iraq, 7-7-2005 in London would not have happened. QED. US foriegn policy begets terror – FACT. You simply show your ignorance of the human condition – people are not born murderers, they are driven to it by their anger, frustration and sense of powerlessless. They become susceptible to extremeism and murder as a last, desperate effort. You know nothing at all – if you think ‘kill them all and let God sort them out’ is a policy, then you are a moral imbecile.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:50 pm#260 actullay MA, Bluedog nails you to the wall in #250 – the CIA, State Dept and US Army all attribute increased recruitment to terror organizations thanks to US policy. You watch what happens to terrorism now after the Israelis blow up half of Lebanon. The US and Israel are playing right into the hands of the extremists.
August 4th, 2006 at 11:56 pmThe US has invaded a sovereign nation over totally false premises and killed 10’sof 1000 ’s All the key players are oil execs and wrote of invading the ME to control the oil there pre 911 ,but there’s just no comparison between the evil hijackers and the bush administration .Gee I agree Exley ,the Bush administration is far more criminal and US cold war policies killed far far more people !
August 4th, 2006 at 11:56 pmYou watch what happens to terrorism now after the Israelis blow up half of Lebanon.
well, terry, with the fifth anniversary of 9.11 just around the corner, you may not have to wait very long for the reply… buy a hat.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:02 amSee we create a new democracy in Iraq at the same time we send Israel bombs to destroy one in Lebanon. This isn’t arrogant when your leader speaks directly to God !
August 5th, 2006 at 12:06 amWord had it that Iran was nearing democracy on its own before we began invading their neighbors country and calling them part of the axis of evil .GOD WORKS IN MYSTERIOUS WAYS .
1/2 of the democratically elected Palestinian gov’t is presently being held in Israeli jails ,and after all that money we spent trying to influence their elections ! Yes bush loves democracy .Hell I remember when he was creating that special commission on fledgling democracies ,I remember it well because that was the day I heard Aristide ,the democratically elected leader of Haiti our nearest democratic neighbor saying his gov’t was being overthrown by the CIA and that he had been kidnapped ,held against his will and forcibly flown out of the country by the US !
August 5th, 2006 at 12:24 amOh yes lets transform the ME to democracy while we shred the US Constitution and grant our great leader new special dictator like powers !!!
August 5th, 2006 at 12:29 amThe kidnapping of pres.Aristede went just right because of a dress rehearsal by the CIA not long before with Hugo Chavez in Venezuela.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:33 amOh my ,wasn’t Hugo Chavez also a democratically elected leader ?
August 5th, 2006 at 12:35 am[...] Iraq s New Freedom on Display: Hundreds of Thousands Chant …Think Progress, DC - 11 hours agoCHENEY: Should all [Saddam s] ambitions be realized, the implications would be enormous for the Middle East, for the United States, and for the peace of the … [...]
August 5th, 2006 at 12:38 amWere’nt Chavez Aristede and Bush all democratically elected ?
August 5th, 2006 at 12:39 amThe new Iraq? What’s new about the al-Sadr and the Mahdi Army? These are thugs from the slums of Baghdad that have been causing problems for 3 years.
Iraq has a population of about 25 million. TP Faiz thinks that the Mahdi Army represents the people of Iraq? How ignorant is that? And to not even have a clue who al-Sadr is? Of course they’re pissed off. We kicked their assess 2 years ago.
But Iraq is a democracy now. They have the right to protest. What’s TP’s point?
August 5th, 2006 at 12:41 am#273…Believe me, there will be no argument or “fuss” from me about your remarks.
There will be no fuss because your comments are so beneath contempt as to be unworthy of a response. I am certain that just about everyone here — liberal, conservative, Democrat, Republican — is sickened by your vile belief that “9.11 was an elegant statement of just how awful america is, to the rest of the world’.”
August 5th, 2006 at 12:46 amYeah we kicked their ass ……I rest my point !
August 5th, 2006 at 12:46 amGit er vocabulary !
August 5th, 2006 at 12:46 amExley you never did look at those war photo’s did you !
August 5th, 2006 at 12:48 amLets see 30 00 Chileans ,one million Iraqi and Iranians and 3000 Americans ! Yeah ,no comparison at all .All the dead in all those countries for all those years just never understood ! It was for their own good !We were only liberating them ,thats all !
August 5th, 2006 at 12:52 amFreeman,
You mean these?
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200045.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200047.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200048.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200011.html
http://www.vaed.uscourts.gov/notablecases/moussaoui/exhibits/prosecution/P200042.html
Sadly, I have.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:56 amSure we’re the good guys We just spent 60 years overthrowing democracies ,assassinating democratically elected leaders ,destabilizing governments and creating death squads because the other guys were bad ! Whats wrong with that !
August 5th, 2006 at 12:58 amAnd you still believe in war ? GOD HELP YOU !!!
August 5th, 2006 at 12:59 amOh very sly … and as always remarkably cavalier of you
August 5th, 2006 at 1:01 amHey the defence department wants the senate to raise the draft age to 42 .May be you won’t be so cavalier soon .
August 5th, 2006 at 1:03 am#303,
“Remarkably cavalier?” You asked if I saw the photos from the war…I responded yes and provided the photos. Your response puzzles me (and I am certain everyone else).
August 5th, 2006 at 1:03 amwhy not just join up and kill a few gooks in a foreign land ,With only 6 1/2 hrs of electricity daily in Bagdad and no air conditioning at 130 degrees I’m sure they’ll all be waiting outside to greet you .Yeah the great leader is doing a heck of a job spreading democracy and justice throughout the world .Don’t wait ,Exley join up now before they draft you .
August 5th, 2006 at 1:08 amHave any children Exley ! Do you believe in the killing of 10’s of 1000’s to dominate the worlds oil supply led by a cabal of oil co.ceo’s ! Got morals ?
August 5th, 2006 at 1:10 amYou seem remarkably unmoved by the photos I have provided, Freeman. I can’t help but wonder why.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:13 amYour really aren’t worth the trouble of debating ,let me know when you find just a trace of your humanity ,then perhaps you will find something to say worth listening to .As an apologist you might be good if you had anything to work with but …..
August 5th, 2006 at 1:17 amSays the man who cannot even muster the decency to acknowledge the pain and suffering memorialized in the photographs provided. I pity you.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:21 amHey bro ,I was born in New york and grew up there The use of violence is your schtick not mine !
August 5th, 2006 at 1:21 amAnd yet you refuse to condemn what took place in New York City and Virginia and Pennsylvania on September 11, 2001. Odd.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:26 amYour the one that believes in the terrorists strategy ,not me Funny though ,if it wasn’t for the airplane pieces in the photo’s you couldn’t even tell which country the charred remains belonged to
August 5th, 2006 at 1:32 am!Do you think when someone dies from another country it doesn’t hurt as much ,Murder is murder .who ever commits the act .the neocons premeditated the murder of 10’s of 1000’s of innocents for control of ME oil and signed their names to it .They have murdered and you applaude ,The terrorist murder and you call it a crime.Apparently for you ,its all right if we do the killing and other people die .Not very upright of you .
Your putting words in my mouth X ley .I don’t condone the murders of other people as a form of foreign policy , you do !
August 5th, 2006 at 1:35 amStill no word or even a hint on condemnation from Freeman of condemnation regarding the atrocity of September 11, 2001. Fascinating…and sad.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:36 amWhich is why you should enlist , its what you believe . Why aren’t you on the front line killing !
August 5th, 2006 at 1:36 am#314…Oh, so you DO condemn the deliberate targeting and slaighter of innocent civilians?! Good for you. So do I.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:39 amhow about the overthrowing of Allende by the CIA that took the lives of 10 times the number of dead Americans ,which by the way also occured on 911 ,years earlier ,is that condonable ?
August 5th, 2006 at 1:41 amHow do you make friends exley ,burn their house down and then pout when they don’t like you ?Killing other people is not a good way to make friends .I guess you think otherwise .Hope your under 42 when the draft comes ,I wouldn’t want you to miss the fun .
August 5th, 2006 at 1:45 amI am not sure what the communist Allende’s overthrow by his fellow Chileans in 1973 has to do with the Islamist terrorist attacks of September 11, 2001. You are being very coy, Freeman. Do you or do you not condemn Al Qaeda’s attack against the U.S. on 9/11/2001?
August 5th, 2006 at 1:45 amgee I don’t know ,what does the killing of innocent people have to do with the killing of innocent people ! Wait I’ve got it ……there both war crimes under the geneva conventions .
August 5th, 2006 at 1:53 amyou really have to be without compassion to argue for fascism .In the light of all the public revelations from the supremes regarding W’s waiving of basic rights such as habeas corpus and the american bar associations allegations that this presidencies use of signing statements is un constitutional and a serious threat to our democracy ,or that the NSA is spying on ordinary americans or that the PNAC signatories all signed off on a plan to invade the ME pre 911 or that … God the list goes on and on …Its no wonder all your arguments are sounding more and more desperate .They’re hopelessly feeble in light of all we now know of this administration .
August 5th, 2006 at 2:05 amthis must be very frustating for you
Again, I am unsure of the connection between an indigenous revolution against a communist leader in South America in 1973 and a terrorist attack against innocent men, women, and children in the U.S. in 2001.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:06 amShoot I thought Seixon the Norwegian had found another blog site to harrass, or I was hoping he found love in Oslo, and would be too busy to clog up TP threads > I wonder if Judd knows?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:09 amI guess you’ll just have to stick to word games and KKKarl Roves talking points Exley !My only question is how you sleep at night ? Perhaps you shouldn’t look too hard for your conscience ,if you find it you may not be able to live with yourself !
August 5th, 2006 at 2:10 amSays the man who refuses to condemn the attacks against America of 9/11/2001. Ah, well, don’t worry, Freeman, I am sure you will grow up and mature one day and look back with embarassment at your failure to condemn terrorism directed at innocent men, women, and children.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:14 amSays the man who refuses to condemn the attacks against America of 9/11/2001. Ah, well, don’t worry, Freeman, I am sure you will grow up and mature one day and look back with embarassment at your failure to condemn terrorism directed at innocent men, women, and children.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:14 amIs it condonable for the US to support tyrants like Karamov ,Who boils people alive who he doesn’t like Exley.Was it a good idea to help coordinate the rounding up of all south american disidents ( O Henry ) and to overthrow democratically elected gov’ts around the globe .Ever meet a death squad you didn’t like ?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:17 am“KKKarl Rove!” Ha ha ha! Oh gosh that’s funny! That’s really funny! Do you write your own material? Do you? Because that is so fresh. “KKKarl Rove” You know, I’ve, I’ve never heard anyone make that joke before. Hmm. You’re the first. I’ve never heard anyone make that reference before! God what a clever, smart boyl you must be, to come up with a joke like that all by yourself. That’s so fresh too…God you’re so funny!
Hat tip: Seth Macfarlane
August 5th, 2006 at 2:19 amI am condemning terrorism conducted against innocent men women and children !! It’s you who want it both ways Exley .Its alright when we do it but not when the other guys do it ?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:20 amanother word game in place of an argument or a conscience !
August 5th, 2006 at 2:22 amOur troubles internationally can be largely attributed to this presidency and 60 + years of employing terrorism around the world as foreign policy ,and with the same cast of characters ! Can’t you even try to offer a decent argument Exley ,it no fun watching you flounder over your own inconsistencies .
August 5th, 2006 at 2:27 amThe same players ,with the same flawed policies that largely created this quandry and it’s stay the course ?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:32 amFreeman, I assume you are referring to Karimov of Uzbekistan. I am puzzled about your assumption that the U.S. “supports” him….Were you aware that in July 2005 Karimov ordered the United States to vacate an air base in Karshi-Kanabad (near the Uzbek border with Afghanistan) within 180 days because the Bush administration had joined in a call for an independent international investigation of the events at Andijon????
You WERE aware of that, weren’t you, Freeman???? Oh, no…I guess you didn’t know that. Well, I am glad to educate you. You’re welcome.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:32 amYou WERE aware of that, weren’t you, Freeman???? Oh, no…I guess you didn’t know that. Well, I am glad to educate you. You’re welcome.
Comment by Exley — August 5, 2006 @ 2:32 am
I was certainly aware of it and welcomed it at the time. What have they done since? Not a damn thing. A global warrant should be issued for his arrest and he should be pursued, we need laws to prosecute and punish individuals like Karimov. Why is the US not supporting and championing uniform and enforceable global law on these issues?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:41 am#330…Ah, Freeman…At LAST you get it! You see, while Al Qaeda and other Islamist terrorist groups do indeed deliberately target innocent men, women, and children for execution and slaughter, the United States does no such thing. Thus, your somewhat childish attempt to draw a parellel between the U.S. and the terrorists falls embarassingly flat.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:43 amXXXley ! oh no ,we’ll have to find another tyrant now that he,s a PR risk! I’m sorry for you . Hopefully we can just shuffle those evil pajama people to another secret prison to resume the vice president favorite water therapy .
August 5th, 2006 at 2:43 amBullshit !
August 5th, 2006 at 2:44 amgiven that at least 1/3 and up to half of all americans (depending on which poll you look at) believe they are being lied to about 9/11, i would have to say i’ll wait to do any condemning until after i’ve seen the independent and full investigation of that day. then i’ll decide who’s to blame.
but let’s pretend for a minute that al qaeda were the ones responsible. how, then, do you explain the following:
plan to invade afghanistan on the president’s desk on sept. 10, 2001 (remember, this is a man who disavowed nation-building in his 2000 campaign, and at that point would’ve had no reason to think otherwise).
$132 million given to the taliban, already known to be harboring american enemy bin laden, in 2001, pre-9/11.
administration meetings with the taliban as late as august 2001.
a repeated and some would say willful disregard to hold even one meeting to discuss the terrorist threat, already regarded by the previous administration as the top threat to our national security, until after 9/11.
the ‘threat assessment’ that led to john ashcroft avoid taking any commercial flights beginning in the summer of 2001.
this is all a matter of record. i could fill this space with unmitigated facts about what happened before and on that day that would make your head spin.
if, exley, you’re really so outraged about what happened on 9/11, are you then not similarly outraged that not a single person resigned, not a single person was dismissed, and in fact some have since been given medals of freedom? where is the accountability from our government? the single worst example of incompetence and failure by our government, and not a single person in a position of responsibility has to pay a price. think about that.
we’ve been hoodwinked, pure and simple. and i cannot support a government that refuses to take accountability and furthermore refuses, to the point of stonewalling, to answer the many lingering questions that remain unanswered to this day.
if you think al qaeda is really such an enormous threat, watch this, and tell me what you think.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:46 amBrian, You would have to ask all the leaders of all nations — including your own — why Karimov has not faced charges. I am not aware of any set of facts that indicate it is the U.S. that is preventing such action. Remember, if it was not for the U.S, Milosevic (not to mention Saddam Hussein) would never had to have faced justice for his crimes.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:46 amapparently exley is still unwittingly a participant in ‘the great neo-con fear experiment of 2001′
August 5th, 2006 at 2:48 am#338 Bullshit !
Comment by freeman — August 5, 2006 @ 2:44 am
Brilliantly argued, Freeman.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:48 amHoo boy…Now here come the “9/11-was-an-inside-job” conspiracy nuts…
August 5th, 2006 at 2:50 amI recall previously you bragged that the US had now abandoned its former policy of supporting dictators ,creating death squads to destabilize other sovereign nations and overthrowing democratically elected gov’ts .Now you say we never did this ?Wow ,you need a reality check man ,you don’t even stand by what you’ve said in past threads.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:53 amno, i left plenty of room for you to debate it on your territory. so answer my questions from above.
as i’ve already said, 1/3 of americans does not “conspiracy nuts” make. otherwise i could just as easily label conservatives as such. go on. answer the question: are you or are you not outraged that essentially everyone responsible for the incompetence and failures of 9/11 got a free pass?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:53 amWhy don’t we just start by giving Henry Kissenger to the world court ,he already been convicted .
August 5th, 2006 at 2:57 amand the link i provided above has absolutely nothing to do with 9/11 conspiracy theories. i didn’t want to disrupt your fragile, fear-addled reality.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:59 amI’m suppose to argue with things I didn’t say XXX ?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:59 amthere goes exley again, cutting and running from the facts…
August 5th, 2006 at 3:00 amWhat I cannot understand is any suggestion that the 9/11 atrocity was in any way understandable or justifiable.
Comment by Exley — August 4, 2006 @ 10:25 pm
For my part it isn’t, there is no justification for mass murder, I just think that this prohibition is universal. The bulk of the “kills” is on our side, and arguably always has been, hence we get the bulk of the flak.
Plus we relentlessly drone on about freedom, truth, justice etc. which simply paints us as appalling hypocrites. Thats my main beef.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:03 amOnce again, Freeman, you have inadvertently made my point and contradicted yourself. You are asbolutely correct when you say that I had previously educated you about the change in policy the Bush administration has formulated and implemented. As you recall, I instructed you that in November 2003, the President said “Sixty years of Western nations excusing and accommodating the lack of freedom in the Middle East did nothing to make us safe because in the long run stability cannot be purchased at the expense of liberty.” I am proud that you remembered this lesson. Thus, your assertion that “Our troubles internationally can be largely attributed to this presidency” is demonstrably false. Yes, the U.S. has made mistakes in the past (Most signifcant Eisenhower’s complicity in the overthrow of the the Iranian gov’t — a terrible error for which we are still paying the price).
But as even you now admit, this president is seeking to reverse and udo some of the damage our past mistakes have brought about. You have learned your lesson well, Freeman. Good for you!
August 5th, 2006 at 3:05 amPR, your compiliation of alleged facts is so contradictory as to be laughable. In one breath you state that the administration was cozying up to the Taliban before 9/11 and use that as some type of evidence that 9/11 was an inside job and then in the next breath you argue that because there was a pre-9/11 invasion plan designed to depose the Taliban that is also evidece that 9/11 was an inside job. So, which is it, PR? Is the evidence that 9/11 was an inside job your allegation that the US was cozy with the Taliban or that the US had plans to depose the Taliban?
August 5th, 2006 at 3:10 amsorry to do this guys…
JUST A REMINDER TO EXLEY, WHO CONTINUES TO DENY THAT THE UNITED STATES GAVE SADDAM HUSSEIN BIOLOGICAL AGENTS AND WEAPONS:
The Senate Committee on Banking, Housing, and Urban Affairs has oversight responsibility for the Export Administration Act. Pursuant to the Act, Committee staff contacted the U.S. Department of Commerce and requested information on the export of biological materials during the years prior to the Gulf War. After receiving this information, we contacted a principal supplier of these materials to determine what, if any, materials were exported to Iraq which might have contributed to an offensive or defensive biological warfare program. Records available from the supplier for the period from 1985 until the present show that during this time, pathogenic (meaning “disease producing”), toxigenic (meaning “poisonous”), and other biological research materials were exported to Iraq pursuant to application and licensing by the U.S. Department of Commerce. Records prior to 1985 were not available, according to the supplier. These exported biological materials were not attenuated or weakened and were capable of reproduction. According to the Department of Defense’s own Report to Congress on the Conduct of the Persian Gulf War, released in April 1992:
“By the time of the invasion of Kuwait, Iraq had developed biological weapons. It’s advanced and aggressive biological warfare program was the most advanced in the Arab world. The program probably began late in the 1970’s and concentrated on the development of two agents, botulinum toxin and anthrax bacteria. . . . Large scale production of these agents began in 1989 at four facilities near Baghdad. Delivery means for biological agents ranged from simple aerial bombs and artillery rockets to surface-to-surface missiles.”
Included in the approved sales are the following biological materials (which have been considered by various nations for use in war), with their associated disease symptoms:
Bacillus Anthracis: anthrax is a disease-producing bacteria identified by the Department of Defense in the The Conduct of the Persian Gulf War: Final Report to Congress, as being a major component in the Iraqi biological warfare program.
Anthrax is an often-fatal infectious disease due to ingestion of spores. It begins abruptly with high fever, difficulty in breathing, and chest pain. The disease eventually results in septicemia (blood poisoning), and the mortality is high. Once septicemia is advanced, antibiotic therapy may prove useless, probably because the exotoxins remain, despite the death of the bacteria.
Clostridium Botulinum: a baterial source of botulinum toxin, which causes vomiting, constipation, thirst, general weakness, headache, fever, dizziness, double vision, dilation of the pupils and paralysis of the muscles involving swallowing. It is often fatal.
Histoplasma Capsulatum: causes a disease superficially resembling tuberculosis that may cause pneumonia, enlargement of the liver and spleen, anemia, an influenza-like illness and an acute inflammatory skin disease marked by tender red modules, usually on the shins. Reactivated infection usually involves the lungs, the brain, spinal membranes, heart, peritoneum, and the adrenals.
Brucella Melitensis: a bacterial which can cause chronic fatigue, loss of appetite, profuse sweating when at rest, pain in joints and muscles, insomnia, nausea, and damage to major organs. Clostridium Perfringens: a highly toxic bacteria which causes gas gangrene. The bacteria produce toxins that move along muscle bundles in the body killing cells and producing necrotic tissue that is then favorable for further growth of the bacteria itself. Eventually, these toxins and bacteria enter the bloodstream and cause systemic illness.
In addition, several shipments of Escherichia Coli (E.Coli) and genetic materials, as well as human and bacterial DNA, were shipped directly to the Iraq Atomic Energy Commission.
go ahead, exley, cut n run! you’ve done it before…
August 5th, 2006 at 3:12 am#350…I’m sorry, Brian. When was it that the United States slashed the throats of flight attendants and flight crews, hijacked civilain airliners, and deliberately crashed them into office buildings killing thousands of innocents in the matter of minutes???? I must have missed that. You seem to believe the U.S. has done that, so please enlighten us.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:13 amGod what double speak .If you to put your words in your opponents mouths ,you manage to score a point ? You just don’t stick by anything you say .First we didn’t support dictators and over throw democracies then we did, but have disavowed it ?You can’t have it both ways man and still expect anyone to take you seriously .So did we do these evil things or not ?Or were’nt they evil when WE did them ?
August 5th, 2006 at 3:14 ami did say, “but let’s pretend for a minute that al qaeda were the ones responsible.”
if that’s the case, how do you explain the actions of the government?
August 5th, 2006 at 3:15 amal qaeda were our enemies, yet we give money and have meetings with those that harbor them?
is this anything other than aiding and abetting?
Nice try, Freeman, but you do not advance your argument one iota by falsely claiming that I said things when the evidence is right before anyone who wants to read my earlier posting that I said no such thing. Tell me, Freeman, where did I say that the U.S. in the past did not “support” dictators or overthrow governments? Just one example, Freeman…We’ll wait.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:19 amfreeman,
exley is an old hand at cutting and running from the facts. if they don’t fit his ideology, he doesn’t believe them. i presented this on an earlier thread, when he denied that we had given weapons and biological agents to saddam. he asked for proof. i gave him proof (from the congressional record, no less, which is where the above text is sourced).
he called me a liar and refused to address the facts.
it’s one thing to debate someone who will be intellectually honest about the facts, but when you’re trying to discuss an issue and present facts and the person you’re trying to debate simply says, “you’re making that up” it’s pretty much a moot point. if exley wants to remain willfully blind to reality, that’s his problem, not ours.
so, exley, are you debating, or is it cut and run time?
August 5th, 2006 at 3:24 amPR, it is my understanding that the money that went to Afghanistan pre-9/11 was humanitarian aid the United States had long been providing to agencies assisting Afghan refugees
August 5th, 2006 at 3:27 amAnd those policies ,such as death squads trained at our very own school of the Americas didn’t kill anyone ? Its too late at night to waste anymore time here debating .Maybe tommorrow you can try an honest approach to the discussion of our history as a nation and not try taking opposite sides of the same argument when it suits you and allow your opponent to speak for themselves in stead of putting your words in their mouths .But I guess it’s hard playing devils advocate when the devil transparently guilty as sin and your stuck defending him .Tough job ,I hope it pays well .
August 5th, 2006 at 3:28 amPR, are you still bitter that I caught you misrepresenting a “Newsweek” article read into the Congressional Record as an actual government finding. You need to let that go, my friend. So, you got caught…Let it be a lesson to you not to misrepresent things. Because I will catch you. Now, as for what you submitted above, those are not biological weapons. Those are multi-use biological agents which can be used for a number of reasons, including the production of biological weapons. Once again, you have provided no evidence — none — that the U.S. government provided biological weapons to Saddam Hussein, whereas I on the other hand had provided numerous official documents that show relations between the U.S. and Iraq after a brief reproachment quickly soured when the Reagan administration publicly condemned Iraq’s use of WMDs in the 1980s. Sorry, PR, but so far, you’ve got nuthin’
August 5th, 2006 at 3:33 amI’ll sleep well tonight ,I have a clear conscience .Goodnight rex .
August 5th, 2006 at 3:35 am#360…Ah, Freeman, just as I expected….When I ask you to provide proof that I said something, which you and I both know I did not say, you run away. I accept your retraction and apology, Freeman. Sleep well.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:36 amI must have missed that. You seem to believe the U.S. has done that, so please enlighten us.
Comment by Exley — August 5, 2006 @ 3:13 am
This illustrates your blind spot perfectly. You are hung up on method and motivation. As if dropping a bomb from 50,000 for a paycheck is more “moral” or “right” or something than a suicide bomber.
I reject than false rationalisation. Random murder of innocent people is murder, especially when you know well in advance what the outcomes of your actions will be.
If we don’t care about the motivations of terrorists, why should our vicitims afford us the same luxury? The US is the richest most heavily armed nation state on the face of the planet, yet you expect to get all the understanding and be cut all the slack.
It’s ludicrous, 50,000 people are dead, the chaos in Iraq is directly attributable to the US. Have you simply zero sense of cause and effect? No capacity for introspection whatever?
Binding international law, that impinges directly on the individual, will stop this. Just like it eventually eliminated the “wild west”, but it takes patience and it’s complex.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:40 amBrian, You seem unable to grasp the difference between the deliberate targeting of civilians, which is the terrorists’ modus operandi, and the U.S and other civilized nations targeting of military targets. Dopping a 50,000 bomb on a military position is not morally equivalent with flying a hijacked airliner into an office building or setting off a car bomb in an open-air market in Baghdad. I know you are not a stupid man, so I cannot help but believe you are being deilberately obtuse on this point.
Moreover, you preach over and over again the need for international lawto hold individuals responsible for their actions, yet in your last post in your own wrods, you argue that the terrorist individuals and groups who perpetrate acts of mass murder and terror in Iraq are not responsible for their crimes but rather that blame rests with teh United . “50,000 people are dead, the chaos in Iraq is directly attributable to the US.” Are you ACTUALLY arguing that the United States is to blame when an Al Qaeda members walks into a crowded Shia mosque and detonates a bomb? Is it the United States which is to blame when a Baathist insurgent sets off a car bomb at a police recruiting station? Don’t you see that such a position completely contradicts your earlier preachings about individuals being held responsible for their actions?
August 5th, 2006 at 3:50 amOh, and just for the record, it is interesting to note that it appears progressaurus rex has — to use his words — “cut and run” (again!)…Sleep well, PR.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:56 amBrian, You seem unable to grasp the difference between the deliberate targeting of civilians, which is the terrorists’ modus operandi, and the
It doesn’t matter. I reject your justification. Innocent people are dead. IT DOESN’T MATTER HOW YOU RATIONALISE THEIR KILLING. THEY ARE DEAD.
Don’t you see that such a position completely contradicts your earlier preachings about individuals being held responsible for their actions?
Comment by Exley — August 5, 2006 @ 3:50 am
No, I don’t, the US was warned about these very outcomes. Again you seem to have no sense of cause and effect. As far as you are concerned, every event appears to happen in isolation, hermetically sealed from all events prior.
The person who blows up a crowded bus is a fool, and a criminal. Those who facilitated him, trained and equipped him should be held accountable. As should those who through their hubris and arrogance created this environment. This outcome, frequently predicted, is why people like myself abhor the Bush “administrations” easy recourse to war.
Within our nation states we do not allow armed gangs to roam at will. Why do we allow this internationally? It’s lunacy.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:02 amBrian, you wrote: “It doesn’t matter. I reject your justification. Innocent people are dead. IT DOESN’T MATTER HOW YOU RATIONALISE THEIR KILLING. THEY ARE DEAD.”
That is an absolutist and some might even say arrogant position. Under that formulation the Allied pilot in World War II who dropped bombs on German military positions are on the same moral plane as an SS officer who rounded and executed Jews in Europe.
Is that really your position?
August 5th, 2006 at 4:08 amyes, that’s how the aid is characterized. but personally i think it’s either gross incompetence or willful negligence to give aid to a regime that’s harboring our enemies without the appropriate strings attached. and the record of contacts between the administration and the taliban shows a single-minded attempt to accomplish one goal: the afghan pipeline. this is well-documented. conspicuously absent from these discussions is any mention of terror suspect number one, osama bin laden.
the point is made clear when the taliban are told in the summer of 2001, “we’ll either carpet you in gold or carpet you in bombs.”
hence the war plan on bush’s desk, september 10, 2001.
this is not due to outrage that the taliban would harbor an enemy of the united states, it’s outrage that they wouldn’t deal with us on this pipeline — a pipeline which would have benefited one company very much: enron. good ‘ol kenny boy.
these facts don’t square. we already know from administration comments after 9/11 — “nobody could’ve ever guessed,” etc. — that they claim to have been unaware of the impending terrorist threat. you’d think that if they were taking these actions to root out osama, they would’ve trumpeted them, would you not? why, the day after 9/11, does the administration not say “look everybody, we’ve been trying to deal with this taliban regime for months now, diplomatically. we haven’t been asleep at the wheel. we know they’ve been harboring bin laden, and we’ve been trying to give them incentives to give him up”?
no, they didn’t do that, because they didn’t want anyone looking at what they had been saying to the taliban, which had nothing to do with osama, and everything to do with the flow of oil.
it doesn’t take a master investigative mind to look at this situation and know that something isn’t right here. first they’re giving aid and having meetings with the taliban, then they’re threatening them, and after 9/11, not a word in their own defense to this end? not a single effort to say “we’ve been aware of this problem, and this is how we’ve been dealing with it”?
exactly. because they didn’t want anyone to look at how they’d been dealing with it. or more precisely, not dealing with it.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:09 amexley, reread that post at 353 and tell me if that reads like a newsweek article. you’re being disingenuous and you know it. you’re purposefully evading the truth.
and you immediately moved the goalposts on that one. your first request was for “an article, a link, an entry in the congressional record.” i gave you, conveniently, ALL THREE. it’s not my fault that you’re intellectually lazy and won’t actually read the entire entry. first 1/3 is the newsweek article, second 1/3 is direct evidence to the committee from u.s. department of commerce and the cdc (excerpted above), and the last 1/3 is a discussion of inspections of and defense from biological attacks.
the more you deny this, the more like an idiot you appear. you are not worthy of debate if you ask for proof and then deny the proof when it’s given. that’s a bullshit tactic and THAT’S what pisses me off. that saddam was given weapons and biological agents by the u.s. under reagan is an UNDISPUTED FACT, and you undermine your own credibilty by denying it.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:21 amPR, you are ignoring a number of facts. The 9/11 Commission found the Bush administration had a three-phase plan to force bin Laden’s expulsion pre-9/11:
“In the report, which was released at the outset of Tuesday’s hearing, the commission said the plan that senior Bush officials agreed upon on Sept. 10, 2001, featured three phases aimed at forcing the Taliban to expel bin Laden:
The United States would initially use diplomacy to persuade the Taliban to expel bin Laden and, if that failed, conduct a covert program aimed at “encouraging anti-Taliban Afghans to attack al-Qaida bases.â€
If those steps failed, the senior Bush administration officials “agreed that the United States would seek to overthrow the Taliban regime through more direct action,†the report said.
But before the plan could be submitted to the president, bin Laden’s terrorists struck the World Trade Center and the Pentagon, killing nearly 3,000 people.”
MSNBC
August 5th, 2006 at 4:23 amIs that really your position?
Comment by Exley — August 5, 2006 @ 4:08 am
It’s not my position on your extreme example, no.
In this case, today, “our” boys are directly or indirectly responsible for the vast majority of innocent deaths. You are desperate to rationalise them, and I reject that. We should always do body counts.
Using a trumped up extreme example doesn’t change that reality.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:26 amPR, Read what I said again. I did not say what you posted here today was a Newsweek article. I simply pointed out that you had previously presented a Newsweek article read into the Congressional Record as a congressional finding.
And then I directly responded to what you posted here and very cogently and presuasively explained to you that what you have posted here does not support your demonstrably false assertion that the Reagan administration provided biological weapons to Saddam Hussein. What you have provided here is information that shows the government in the 1980s did allow private sales of certain multi-use biologics to Iraq. Those biological agents have numerous medical and agricultural uses. They are not strictly weapons materials. If the U.S. wanted to provide fully-functional and operational biological weapons to Iraq, it easily have done so, rather than going through this byzantine process of providing them with multi-use agents that Iraq would have to process and weaponize. Indeed, even the information you provide shows that Iraq did not start producing biological weapons until 1989.
So, once again, you have failed utterly to produce any evidence that the U.S. government provided biological weapons to Saddam Hussein.
I, of course, on the other hand have irrefutably shown in earlier threads through offical historic government documents that the U.S condemned Iraq’s use of chemical weapons in the 1980s, which angered Saddam and caused a schism between the U.S. and Iraq. Thus, I have shown that rather than supplying WMDs to Iraq, the Reagan administration condemned Iraq’s use of such weapons.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:37 amNo, Brian, my example was not extreme. Rather it was your absolutist position that was extreme. I am glad you have backed away from it somewhat. I think you see now it was a morally indefensible position.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:39 amNo, Brian, my example was not extreme. Rather it was your absolutist position that was extreme. I am glad you have backed away from it somewhat. I think you see now it was a morally indefensible position.
Comment by Exley — August 5, 2006 @ 4:39 am
I’ll confess, it gave me pause for thought, but it doesn’t change my central theme of global law impinging directly on the individual.
However, let me reverse the logic a little on you and see what we come up with.
Is there any justification for terrorism …. any at all.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:43 amsorry exley, but the findings of the 9/11 omission are hardly unbiased. the executive director of that group was philip zelikow, a good friend of condi rice (he co-authored a book with her and served on gwb’s transition team in 2001), and he was the person that selected the “evidence” the 9/11 omission actually looked at. the omissioners themselves had no part in the selection of evidence they were to see. both the 9/11 family steering committee and 9-11 citizens watch demanded his resignation, but funny how that works, he didn’t resign.
and i repeat, this isn’t what the administration said after the fact. and of course i could just use your tactic and say “WHAT?! an MSNBC article? well that’s just HOGWASH! you need to give me REAL PROOF!”
and besides, the last sentence of that citation, “before the plan could be submitted to the president, bin Laden’s terrorists struck the World Trade Center and the Pentagon” is patently untrue, as we now know the president had the plan on his desk september 10, the day before the attacks.
it’s funny how many people say the 9/11 omission report reads “like a novel”. interesting. having read government reports before, i’ve never encountered that. they’re normally tedious, painstaking accounts of the event they are investigating. very boring, very heavy on data, very much the normal investigative process of not presupposing the result. the 9/11 omission report was nothing of the sort. it was fiction along the lines of “iraq has wmds” (as in, “we already know the answer, let’s find the facts that support it, and ignore everything else”).
sorry, but any “investigation” of an event that completely ignores the collapse of an entire building — as if it didn’t even happen — i have to believe is a failed investigation.
try again.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:52 amBrian, I suppose the answer to that depends on your definition of “terrorism.” I would say insurgents blowing up a bridge or a generating plant or railroad tracks (Y’know, real French resistance stuff) is justifiable and “acceptable.” But I wouldn’t call that “terrorism.” Political assassinations? I think that can also be justified. But again, I would not characterize that as “terrorism.”
But DELIBERATELY targeting civilains for slaughter for the sole purpose of creating terror, such as setting off a car bomb in a market place or mosque or a suicide bombing in a pizzeria or resort or (of course) flying airplanes into office buildings is never, ever justifiable.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:55 amI would say insurgents blowing up a bridge or a generating plant or railroad tracks (Y’know, real French resistance stuff) is justifiable and “acceptable.â€
What about Iraqi “resistance” setting off IED’s to kill American soldiers. Is that “acceptable”?
August 5th, 2006 at 4:59 amI would say insurgents blowing up a bridge or a generating plant or railroad tracks (Y’know, real French resistance stuff) is
Or how about Iraqi “resistance” blowing up infrastructure to inconvenience the enemy, and turn the civilian populace against them?
Or perhaps destroying a dam, wrecking the livelihood of hundreds of thousands, and drowning tens of thousands more.
Or detonating a bomb at a checkpoint to kill occupying forces, or their stooges, knowing that civilians might be killed?
August 5th, 2006 at 5:03 amPolitical assassinations? I think that can also be justified.
For the record, I’m fully in favour of these when authorised by a recognized global legal authority. A sort of international “Dead or Alive” warrant.
The key thing is we need legal structures in place facilitate these kinds of extreme measures, it is unacceptable for a single country to just decide for other 95.5% of us.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:07 amWell, obviously I cannot bring myself to say that killing of American soldiers is “acceptable.” But, I suppose for purposes of this discussion and based on my definition of terrorism, as cowardly and despicable as I find it, I do not think I can call it what you I describe as “terrorism.” It is an ugly form of guerilla warfare but it is not pure terrorism.
However, I do think it also depends on who is employing the IED. As we all know, there are numerous “insurgent” and “terrorist” groups fighting now in Iraq. The so-calledm insurgency is not monolithic. There are Sunnu insurgents, former Baathists, Shia militia, and Al Qaeda. I would argue that because Al Qaeda is by definition a terrorist organization, anything it does is an act of terrorism. So, if Al Qaeda sets off an IED against an American soldier that is indeed terrorism.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:08 amrevise away, exley, revise away.
so what you’re saying is i did give you the proof you asked for, and then you moved the goalposts.
true, i pulled selected quotes from the newsweek article, but they still met your request: “an article, a link, an entry in the congressional record”.
furthermore they were accompanied by the other proof, you were just intellectually lazy and chose not to read it. i knew fully well that the newsweek article wasn’t a congressional finding. i just didn’t think you’d be so dishonest as to deny the entirety of the information there that was a congressional finding.
and i was never making any contention about when the weapons were made, only that we gave him the ingredients. that’s a red herring that had nothing to do with the issue at hand. even so, where was the wmd outrage in 1991? oh, i guess that might’ve been a bit inconvenient to talk about then, hmmm? my, where did saddam get all that stuff? we mustn’t let the public know…
if this is the disingenuous technique you have to use to stroke your own ego by not having to admit you were wrong, then you are a sad, pathetic boy.
you’re such an ideologue that you will not be wrong, no matter what the facts actually say. fine.
you’re obviously very happy in your little fantasy world, so who am i to disturb it?
August 5th, 2006 at 5:09 amWell, PR, if you do not accept the 9/11 Commission at all then I really don’t think this is a topic we can discuss at this point .For the record, while I am not nearly as dismissive as you, I too think the Commission missed a lot–although probably not the same things you do. Indeed, recent documents discovered in Iraq has prompted 9/11 Commissioner Bob Kerrey to say there may be more info out there that the commission did not have at the times it wrote its report:
CAIRO, Egypt – A former Democratic senator and 9/11 commissioner says a recently declassified Iraqi account of a 1995 meeting between Osama bin Laden and a senior Iraqi envoy presents a “significant set of facts,” and shows a more detailed collaboration between Iraq and Al Qaeda.
In an interview yesterday, the current president of the New School University, Bob Kerrey, was careful to say that new documents translated last night by ABC News did not prove Saddam Hussein played a role in any way in plotting the attacks of September 11, 2001.
Nonetheless, the former senator from Nebraska said that the new document shows that “Saddam was a significant enemy of the United States.” Mr. Kerrey said he believed America’s understanding of the deposed tyrant’s relationship with Al Qaeda would become much deeper as more captured Iraqi documents and audiotapes are disclosed…
“This is a very significant set of facts,” former 9/11 commissioner, Mr. Kerrey said yesterday. “I personally and strongly believe you don’t have to prove that Iraq was collaborating against Osama bin Laden on the September 11 attacks to prove he was an enemy and that he would collaborate with people who would do our country harm. This presents facts should not be used to tie Saddam to attacks on September 11. It does tie him into a circle that meant to damage the United States.”
New York Sun:
August 5th, 2006 at 5:17 amPR, Fine, look, if there was more in the material you sent originally other than the Newsweek article that I missed, I apologize. I didn’t see it.
But now I have indeed respond to the more substantive Senate committee information you sent, and as I said I don’t see it as confirming in any way your allegation that the Reagan administration supplied Iraq with biological weapons. There is no there there.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:21 amI, of course, on the other hand have irrefutably shown in earlier threads through offical historic government documents that the U.S condemned Iraq’s use of chemical weapons in the 1980s
and yet we continued to give saddam biological agents that could be weaponized. that seems counterintuitive, does it not? how many times in the past 30 years can you think of when the government was saying one thing, but doing another? i can think of quite a few.
you are a shallow type if you actually take these people at their word. they’ll only disappoint you. my guess is it won’t be too long before you realize that, the hard way.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:22 amSo, if Al Qaeda sets off an IED against an American soldier that is indeed terrorism.
Comment by Exley — August 5, 2006 @ 5:08 am
What if a volunteer from Ireland, fighting Franco’s fascists, killed a Spanish soldier, that would by your definition by terrorism, right?
Or a Southern Irish IRA “volunteer” shooting a British soldier in Northern Ireland? Given that Northern Ireland is administrated by British, and even though the action involves purely “military” forces, you would still characterise it as terrorism.
Of course, the real tough one is a US soldier killing Iraqi civilians. Then it’s all about intent, what was going on in the soldiers head, his motivation, that makes it either a blood thirsty act of terrorism, or a regretable accident?
My point I suppose, is it’s complicated, thanks for the reminder:-)
I have over the last few years, come to the conclusion that we must reject all violence that breaches the bounds of normal policing (itself a blurred line, but with clear bracketing parameters) not authorised by a global authority. Everything I’ve seen in the last 6 months has simply served to reinforce my conviction.
To reiterate my earlier post.
we obviously need some kind of global system, that is democratic, to arbitrate on issues of global importance.
I demand a world were “the rule of law†is not merely a catchphrase to justify industrial scale murder. The first problem of course, is that we have no genuine global law, and the second problem is, no means to enforce it. Both are certainly addressable.
We rightly do not accept such a ludicrous state of affairs within our nation states, and we should be keen to change that same situation globally. Global governance, is the logical path for humans. Since the first tribal spat, we have aggregated into larger and larger groups. Whats one more iteration upward?
The real utopian view is imaginging that 190+ independently armed gangs, some with weapons that can destroy the entire planet, will simply muddle along without another major bump like WWII. The next one might actually finish us off as a spieces. Really, it’s time to stop playing this extended game of russian roulette and arrange a democratic, interntional system that actually works.
That paragraph sums up my position as clearly as I can.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:25 amBut again PR let me provide you with information that disproves your assertions that the Reagan administration supplied WMDs to Iraq:
Document 42: Department of State Cable from George P. Shultz to the United States Interests Section in Iraq. “U.S. Chemical Shipment to Iraq,” March 4, 1984.
Indicates that a shipment of 22,000 pounds of phosphorous fluoride to Iraq was held back at JFK airport because of “concern over Iraq’s possible intention to use the chemical in the manufacture of chemical weapons.” Washington asks the U.S. interests section in Baghdad to remind Iraq’s Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the U.S.’s grave concern about chemical weapons, and to inform it that the U.S. will publicly condemn their use in the near future. The interests section is to reiterate the request that Iraq not use chemical warfare, and to say that the U.S. opposes Iraq’s attempts to acquire chemical weapons related material from the U.S.: “When we become aware of attempts to do so, we will act to prevent their export to Iraq.”
Document 45: United States Interests Section in Iraq Cable from William L. Eagleton, Jr. to the Department of State. “Iraq Reacts Angrily to U.S. Condemnation of CW [Chemical Weapons] Use,” March 7, 1984.
Reports that Iraq’s defense minister denounced the State Department’s condemnation of Iraq’s chemical weapons use. The U.S. interests section comments that “The Iraqis apparently have been stunned by our public condemnation.”
Source: Declassified under the Freedom of Information Act
Document 48: Department of State Cable from George P. Shultz to the United States Embassy in Sudan. “Briefing Notes for Rumsfeld Visit to Baghdad ,” March 24, 1984.
A State Department background cable for Donald Rumsfeld’s March 1984 visit to Baghdad notes the distress caused to Iraqi officials by the U.S.’s public condemnation of Iraq’s use of chemical weapons “despite our repeated warnings that this issue would emerge sooner or later.”
August 5th, 2006 at 5:30 amBrian, you raise interesting points and I would like to think about them with a clearer head, for it is VERY late where I am and I need to get some sleep. I will pick this up tomorrow.Good night….
You too, progressaurus rex
August 5th, 2006 at 5:34 amexley,
goodness. thank you, finally. my only real point in that whole rigamarole is that it undermines our credibility, badly. and i want to get to the crux of our frequent regime problems – which is that often we end up having to take care of problems that we created in the first place. we did also contribute heavily to the rise of radical islamists — and al qaeda — in afghanistan by supporting them in the 80s against the soviets. that showed a total lack of foresight (and before you say “how could we have known?” — the soviets knew. gorbachev knew, and in fact he told reagan- if the soviets leave afghanistan, there will be a power vacuum there, and what will fill that vacuum will not be a friendly regime. the soviets, being a lot closer to that mess, already knew the threat of radical islam).
and re: your comments in 383. i don’t think anyone could argue that saddam wasn’t happy to see damage inflicted on the u.s., or that he wouldn’t have been happy to have been a part of it himself. but radical islam was anathema to saddam (his was a secular regime, and now we are seeing why). he despised bin laden. there was no “meeting in prague” with atta — he was in florida at the time. and if you can prove that there were al qaeda in iraq at any time before we invaded it, i’d like to see it.
look, we could argue the “iraq connection” all night long, but if the fact that we still haven’t caught bin laden, or zawahiri for that matter, doesn’t make it obvious that iraq was NOT the logical next step in this fight, then i don’t know what does. how, exactly, did we get from “we’re gonna hunt him down” “smoke him out” “dead or alive” to “he’s not that important” and “honestly i don’t think about him that much”? why is “public enemy #1″ now no longer our top priority? they’ve even shut down the bin laden unit.
is it a failure? is it a policy change? or is it because, as rumsfeld so famously said the day after 9/11, “all of the good targets are in iraq”?
August 5th, 2006 at 5:49 amBrian, you raise interesting points and I would like to think about them with a clearer head, for it is VERY late where I am and I need to get some sleep. I will pick this up tomorrow.Good night….
Goodnight … I’m off to mow the lawn.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:01 amActually, if you would read all of my postings on this particular thread you would see that I have very clearly stated that I did and still do support 1) the invasion of Afghanistan and 2) the initial military action in Iraq and the deposing of Saddam Hussein.
I must of missed it. It was a long week and I was tired. But don’t bother to ever give anyone the benfit of the doubt…
I don’t get how you can support removing Saddam Hussein when it’s pretty clear that the way to keep peace in a country filled with Shia and Sunnis who want to kill one another is by being a greater threat to them than they are to one another. You can’t change their culture, so you have to make sure they know the consequences of civil war are worse than peace. Saddam evidently knew this.
And don’t say that I thought he was a swell guy. He was not. But perhaps he was a lesser of two evils. Civil war being the greater.
Both actions, in my opinion, have helped make the American homeland safer.
Both actions have in fact made the American homeland LESS safe, because we’ve created more people who want to kill us and attack us over here. That’s just basic 1 + 1 = 2.
What I AM beginning to question is whether or not an Arab Islamic people can create and sustain a peaceful, democratic, and civilzed society.
Good. That’s a start to recognize that the Middle East has a different culture than we do.
After the deposing of Saddam Hussein, the Iraqi people had a golden opportunity to transform their nation into a democratic, peaceful republic that would not only benefit themselves and their children, but also serve as a model for the peoples of the rest of the Arab world. Yet, the Iraqis seem (so far) to have taken this opportunity and squandered it, choosing instead to indulge in a sad and pathetic battle between Islamic sects over who has a better understanding of Allah and the Prophet.
Yes, I agree, proof that their current culture is not compatable with democracy. When given the chance to choose, they chose civil war. My point is – we should have known this before we removed Saddam.
I saw an email on the Jack Cafferty file where someone suggested that we drop Saddam off in Tikrit with a warning that we’ll be back if he gets out of line. I think it’s too late to do that, he’s been weakened by being captured and humiliated. But, we should certainly use this lesson to remind ourselves that not everyone wants what we want.
It is terrifically sad, not only for the Iraqis, but the Middle East, and the world as a whole.
Well, I think Middle Eastern derived religions (Christianity, Islam and Judaism) are terrifically sad for the whole world because this is wholly religious based violence. The Middle East has 5000 years and more of violence in the region, and yet 50% of teh world’s population follows Middle Eastern religious tennets… No wonder we’re such a murderous lot.
And I must take exception to your statement, “And so we got to see how it felt.†That statement reeks of the suggestion that the United States and those who were slaughtered on 9/11 deserved their horrific fate and that the United States has ever commited a similar atrocity.
No it does not. You righties invent things to be offended over if they don’t exist. And that is pure fabrication that I suggested such a thing. I did not.
I would submit to you that the United States has never slit the throats of innocent flight attendants and a crew aboard civilain airliners and hijacked those planes and flown them into office buildings, slaughtering thousands over a matter of minutes.
But I guess the hundreds of thousands of dark skinned people we’ve either enslaved or tortured or murdered during our formation and throughout our existence is acceptable to you?
You don’t seem to apply your morality to yourself. This is why we on the left call you hypocritical.
I more than understand that there are differences of opinion and politics over issues such as Social Security privitization, the Kyoto Treaty, and even the war in Iraq. What I cannot understand is any suggestion that the 9/11 atrocity was in any way understandable or justifiable.
Comment by Exley — August 4, 2006 @ 10:25 pm
Me neither. Because I neither implied nor infered such a thing. You just made it up to make it look like you took teh moral high-ground when in fact you see nothing wrong in the slaughter of innocent people ‘over there’.
I think the Bush Regime should be held as war criminals as accomplices to the 9/11 atrocities because they allowed it to occur in spite of warnings that Osama was determined to attack within the US. What I cannot understand is how anyone can continue to support an Administration that allowed 9/11 to happen, and then bungled capturing its perpetrator and instead attacking a different country unprovoked.
August 5th, 2006 at 8:49 amYou can’t always get what you want, you can’t always get what you want, but if you try sometime you’ll get what you need… everybody sing! RS
August 5th, 2006 at 8:50 amWhere are the turds that think invading Iraq was going to solve all of our problems?
August 5th, 2006 at 8:54 amWolfdaughter,
We liberals were predicting before the U.S.l invaded Iraq that it would destabilize the Middle East, and that it would not achieve any of its stated objectives. WE WERE RIGHT. It annoys me no end that we are still not given credence for this. The neocons were wrong in everyone of their prognostications, and anyone with any understanding of human nature, and capacity for empathy, could have predicted that they would be wrong.
It’s only been 3 years. Only the anti-war people were the ones claiming that this thing should turn out peachy overnight. Bush said on May 1, 2003 that there was a lot of hard work ahead of us in Iraq. Only utopian fools like anti-war liberals would dream of a situation where we knocked off Saddam Hussein, with the Sunnis magically being pleased at losing their place on the throne, and nothing bad happening. We all knew it was coming, but some of us expected and accepted these things because in the end, it will have been worth it. The Iraqis themselves say so, so why can’t the anti-war liberals? Oh, right, politics.
What you’re essentially saying is that the anti-war liberals predicted that post-WWII Germany wouldn’t be all peaches and cream, and that they were right! No, really? It’s like stating the obvious, without any perspective at all, and then patting yourself on the back for it.
Sure things will probably get better eventually, as people get tired of killing each other and find some sort of peace for a while, at least. There is always ebb and flow in events. Nonetheless, that is a lame excuse for what is currently going on, just as your posts about the demonstrators not representing the opinions of all Iraqis, were lame excuses.
Lame excuses? It’s lame for me to point out that just because some thousands of protestors fill the streets of Baghdad that it doesn’t necessarily mean that 25+ million Iraqis believe the same thing? Wow, OK.
As you admit yourself, things will eventually get better. You don’t knock off a 30-year dictatorship without some growing pains. Meanwhile, the only ones anyone can blame for all the violence going on is the ones who are doing it: radical Sunnis and Shiites. As I said, given freedom, it can be misused, and that’s exactly what some Iraqis are doing with it, misusing it. We can’t be blamed for that any more than we can be blamed for most of the things Americans do on a daily basis by misusing their freedoms.
In other words, you might as well blame the Bush administration for all the violence and murder going on in the United States.
It was not our right to remove Saddam. He was a brutal dictator, but it was not our right. Also, he was already getting on in years, and was spending most of his time writing romance novels. The sanctions were working. Although I would have preferred that there be some way of keeping them from impacting the average Iraqi so heavily.
Ehh…. So who’s right is it to take out a dictator? In this modern age, dictators are almost impossible for a people to take out. We saw what happened when the Iraqis tried in 1991 – they got slaughtered. So it seems you’d rather that hundreds of thousands or millions of Iraqis died in a struggle to take out Saddam Hussein rather than us doing it for them with lots less death.
The sanctions were working? What planet are you living on? Do you know anything about the Oil for Food program??? Saddam Hussein managed to import 380 rocket engines for crying out loud. He was smuggling oil all over the place. He was buying political influence all over the world with oil money. In 2002 the sanctions were quickly degenerating. Even the UN director of the program was bought off by Saddam! Jesus. I’d expect such naive displays here in Norway since the Norwegian media still hasn’t written a damn thing about the biggest scandal ever to rock the UN, but you should have at least read something about it in the US.
You don’t make a “gift†of democracy. Again, this is NOT our right. We can be a role model (although that model is more than a bit tarnished at this point). We can use various trade carrots and sticks. But democracy imposed at the point of a gun is no democracy.
We can be a role model? Yeah, I’m sure Saddam Hussein, his sons, Mahmoud Ahmadenijad, Kim Jong Il and the rest of the gang really give a shit about us or anyone else being a role model. Yup, one day Kim Jong Il will wake up and say, “Hey, you know what, starving my people to make nukes isn’t a good thing. I should have a democratic republic like the USA or like they have in Europe!”
Are you fuggin kidding me??? Carrots and sticks? Here Kim Jong Il, we’ll give you a carrot, want to be a democracy now? Who are you kidding? This is the worst kind of liberal utopianism I have read today.
We “imposed democracy with a gun” in Japan, Germany, and South Korea. Why not Iraq? Did we force over 11 million Iraqis to go cast votes in their elections? The Iraqi voter turnout rivaled the turnout in the US, even though many of the voters in Ira
What you conservatives refuse to recognize is that
Unlike some of you on this thread, I don’t believe that the Iraqis or the Arab world in general are incapable of democracy. In Iran there are Internet cafes and the young people who participate in those don’t much care for their current theocratic government. Let them work on getting a more secular and democratic government in Iran and don’t interfere with it. The Arab countries need to work out some sort of representative governments on their own. They will do so as it’s in the interests of the majority of people. They are not subhuman. They are intelligent.
Unfortunately, given their history, in countries like Saudi Arabia, it will probably take the form of a bloody uprising against the Sauds. But they have to work it out for themselves.
August 5th, 2006 at 9:40 amWolfdaughter,
We liberals were predicting before the U.S.l invaded Iraq that it would destabilize the Middle East, and that it would not achieve any of its stated objectives. WE WERE RIGHT. It annoys me no end that we are still not given credence for this. The neocons were wrong in everyone of their prognostications, and anyone with any understanding of human nature, and capacity for empathy, could have predicted that they would be wrong.
It’s only been 3 years. Only the anti-war people were the ones claiming that this thing should turn out peachy overnight. Bush said on May 1, 2003 that there was a lot of hard work ahead of us in Iraq. Only utopian fools like anti-war liberals would dream of a situation where we knocked off Saddam Hussein, with the Sunnis magically being pleased at losing their place on the throne, and nothing bad happening. We all knew it was coming, but some of us expected and accepted these things because in the end, it will have been worth it. The Iraqis themselves say so, so why can’t the anti-war liberals? Oh, right, politics.
What you’re essentially saying is that the anti-war liberals predicted that post-WWII Germany wouldn’t be all peaches and cream, and that they were right! No, really? It’s like stating the obvious, without any perspective at all, and then patting yourself on the back for it.
Sure things will probably get better eventually, as people get tired of killing each other and find some sort of peace for a while, at least. There is always ebb and flow in events. Nonetheless, that is a lame excuse for what is currently going on, just as your posts about the demonstrators not representing the opinions of all Iraqis, were lame excuses.
Lame excuses? It’s lame for me to point out that just because some thousands of protestors fill the streets of Baghdad that it doesn’t necessarily mean that 25+ million Iraqis believe the same thing? Wow, OK.
As you admit yourself, things will eventually get better. You don’t knock off a 30-year dictatorship without some growing pains. Meanwhile, the only ones anyone can blame for all the violence going on is the ones who are doing it: radical Sunnis and Shiites. As I said, given freedom, it can be misused, and that’s exactly what some Iraqis are doing with it, misusing it. We can’t be blamed for that any more than we can be blamed for most of the things Americans do on a daily basis by misusing their freedoms.
In other words, you might as well blame the Bush administration for all the violence and murder going on in the United States.
It was not our right to remove Saddam. He was a brutal dictator, but it was not our right. Also, he was already getting on in years, and was spending most of his time writing romance novels. The sanctions were working. Although I would have preferred that there be some way of keeping them from impacting the average Iraqi so heavily.
Ehh…. So who’s right is it to take out a dictator? In this modern age, dictators are almost impossible for a people to take out. We saw what happened when the Iraqis tried in 1991 – they got slaughtered. So it seems you’d rather that hundreds of thousands or millions of Iraqis died in a struggle to take out Saddam Hussein rather than us doing it for them with lots less death.
The sanctions were working? What planet are you living on? Do you know anything about the Oil for Food program??? Saddam Hussein managed to import 380 rocket engines for crying out loud. He was smuggling oil all over the place. He was buying political influence all over the world with oil money. In 2002 the sanctions were quickly degenerating. Even the UN director of the program was bought off by Saddam! Jesus. I’d expect such naive displays here in Norway since the Norwegian media still hasn’t written a damn thing about the biggest scandal ever to rock the UN, but you should have at least read something about it in the US.
You don’t make a “gift†of democracy. Again, this is NOT our right. We can be a role model (although that model is more than a bit tarnished at this point). We can use various trade carrots and sticks. But democracy imposed at the point of a gun is no democracy.
We can be a role model? Yeah, I’m sure Saddam Hussein, his sons, Mahmoud Ahmadenijad, Kim Jong Il and the rest of the gang really give a shit about us or anyone else being a role model. Yup, one day Kim Jong Il will wake up and say, “Hey, you know what, starving my people to make nukes isn’t a good thing. I should have a democratic republic like the USA or like they have in Europe!”
Are you fuggin kidding me??? Carrots and sticks? Here Kim Jong Il, we’ll give you a carrot, want to be a democracy now? Who are you kidding? This is the worst kind of liberal utopianism I have read today.
We “imposed democracy with a gun” in Japan, Germany, and South Korea. Why not Iraq? Did we force over 11 million Iraqis to go cast votes in their elections? The Iraqi voter turnout rivaled the turnout in the US, even though many of the voters in Iraq were under the immediate threat of death. We didn’t force them to do diddly squat – they wanted democracy and they participated in it.
Unlike some of you on this thread, I don’t believe that the Iraqis or the Arab world in general are incapable of democracy. In Iran there are Internet cafes and the young people who participate in those don’t much care for their current theocratic government. Let them work on getting a more secular and democratic government in Iran and don’t interfere with it. The Arab countries need to work out some sort of representative governments on their own. They will do so as it’s in the interests of the majority of people. They are not subhuman. They are intelligent.
It doesn’t matter how intelligent they are when there are maniacs in control of the countries that have all of the modern military weapons available to control the masses. It’s not like it was back in 1776 when they had muskets and cannons. Now they have chemical weapons, missiles, tanks, and even nuclear bombs. A revolution of the people has little to no chance of succeeding in today’s world. You think it will happen just because it’s in the interest of the majority of the people? Are you seriously that dense? Just look at what goes on in the US Congress! Do they always do what’s in the interests of the majority of Americans? NO! So why in the hell would you expect that Mahmoud Ahmadenijad in Iran would suddenly see that his military control of his country suddenly is meaningless because the majority opinion in the country wants freedom?
The North Koreans have been living under hell for how many years? How much longer are you willing to let them starve to death so they can “figure things out” on their own?
I’ll let you in on a secret: it doesn’t matter what they want, because crazy dictators are there to slaughter and starve them to death. It seems some people are still stuck back in the 1800s, enamored with the French and American revolutions.
Unfortunately, given their history, in countries like Saudi Arabia, it will probably take the form of a bloody uprising against the Sauds. But they have to work it out for themselves.
And you prove my point. See, you’d rather that millions of Saudis died in a bloody civil war to remove the dictatorship rather than have the US go in and rip them out and kill a few tens of thousands in the process. Just like with Iraq, you’d rather that 0 Americans died while hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died attempting to overthrow Saddam Hussein.
It just goes to show that those against the war are some of the most selfish people of all. Many liberals would rather have universal healthcare for themselves and their children than give 50 million Arabs and Muslims a chance at freedom. Many anti-war people would rather that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died struggling to remove Saddam Hussein on their own rather than a single American soldier die to accomplish the same thing at a much lower price for the Iraqis.
The ironic part is that this is exactly the reason why 9/11 happened: because we turned a blind eye to what was going on in the Middle East and made due with “meh, they’ll figure things out on their own eventually”.
August 5th, 2006 at 9:50 amAs you admit yourself, things will eventually get better. You don’t knock off a 30-year dictatorship without some growing pains.
That’s all it is to you growing pains?. A few cells flushed out of the body? You don’t even reflect on the 50,000 dead, the warnings that were ignored, the risk of millions being killed in a conflict which history will certainly reflect GWB as being the critical catalyst. Instead you indulge in this orwellian re-write, of sober judgment and careful planning. Jaw dropping. You know it’s only been a few years, and we watched it happen.
You cite the example of Germany and Japan. Yes democracy was imposed by violence, after a conflict that killed 50 million. I suppose if we allow a conflagration in the middle east that kills a few million and involves a nuke or two, that yes, people will pretty much accept any damn thing on offer. From that position, certainly things will get better. Those among us not clinically insane, would prefer to step away from that precipice.
The truth you and your ilk were warned. You ignored the warnings, and went to war on trumped up nonsense. You killed 50,000 people, and you have the outrageous gall to come here and continue to defend this policy? While people are still being blown to pieces both by US troops, and the resistance the occupation has spawned, in a cruel parody of evolution.
I think people like you are off their rocker, at least a little. Or someone is paying you o do this. I can’t get my head around anyone continuing to vigourously defend what is so clearly indefensible.
August 5th, 2006 at 9:59 amOoops, a bit of a double post there, sorry!
Rick S,
Where are the turds that think invading Iraq was going to solve all of our problems?
You mean the Strawmen?
unbelievable,
Let’s take a stroll down memory lane, using what you said earlier, I’ll rewrite it a little bit:
I think the Roosevelt Regime should be held as war criminals as accomplices to the Pearl Harbor atrocities because they allowed it to occur in spite of warnings that Japan was determined to attack within the US. What I cannot understand is how anyone can continue to support an Administration that allowed Pearl Harbor to happen, and then bungled capturing its perpetrator and instead attacking a different country unprovoked.
Yeah! Stupid Roosevelt going after Germany. Leave Germany alone, they never attacked us!
The wisdom of unbelievable on full display. Enjoy.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:03 amMany anti-war people would rather that hundreds of thousands of Iraqis died struggling to remove Saddam Hussein on their own rather than a single American soldier die to accomplish the same thing at a much lower price for the Iraqis.
Such tripe. Yes we are the “selfish” ones because we object to you “killing them for their own good”. This an example of the exactly the hopelessly optimistic fairytale that got you into Iraq in the first place. The very thing you are claiming on this thread never happened.
Spain, Portugal, Greece, East Block, South Africa … all without hardly a shot being fired. Set the example, support the moderates, put legislation in place to prosecute the seriously out of line, don’t be a hypocrite and the world does change. It has.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:04 amCoughlan,
That’s all it is to you growing pains?. A few cells flushed out of the body? You don’t even reflect on the 50,000 dead, the warnings that were ignored, the risk of millions being killed in a conflict which history will certainly reflect GWB as being the critical catalyst. Instead you indulge in this orwellian re-write, of sober judgment and careful planning. Jaw dropping. You know it’s only been a few years, and we watched it happen.
Yes, it is growing pains. You can try to warp that into me not caring about the dead, such as you have just done, but in a greater historical context, this is growing pains. The American Civil War was also growing pains for our nation. I don’t say that lightly since I do not have the need to use flashy and explosive words to convey meaning. The risk of millions being killed? Not even 100,000 civilians have been killed in Iraq, and you are talking about millions? Ah yes, that reminds me of all the predictions before the war that there would be millions of dead, millions of refugees, and so on, and so forth. Did that happen? Nah.
Careful planning will only get you so far, especially in complex and chaotic situations such as war. It was demonstrably clear to most what the costs of this war would be, and some of us have accepted this as something that will eventually be worth it, others never wanted it to happen at all. With that said, I obviously don’t think that everything has gone as well as it could have or should have. I think there’s a real danger of us screwing up this whole thing if we let that happen. If that happens, then it will all be for naught just like Vietnam. I hope the Bush administration doesn’t let that happen, and if they do, I will be very, very mad and disappointed.
You cite the example of Germany and Japan. Yes democracy was imposed by violence, after a conflict that killed 50 million. I suppose if we allow a conflagration in the middle east that kills a few million and involves a nuke or two, that yes, people will pretty much accept any damn thing on offer. From that position, certainly things will get better. Those among us not clinically insane, would prefer to step away from that precipice.
Yet we’re not talking about millions dead anymore namely because we learned from our mistakes in WWII and Vietnam. Most people, as I’m sure includes you, accepted the cost of taking out Hitler and defeating Japan and the Axis Powers. Thus it’s odd to see that the same people are so up in arms about a conflict where the costs have been so much lower on all sides.
Democracy was set into play by violence, it was not forced by violence. We didn’t force anyone to participate in democracy – any sane human being will want to participate in that.
The truth you and your ilk were warned. You ignored the warnings, and went to war on trumped up nonsense. You killed 50,000 people, and you have the outrageous gall to come here and continue to defend this policy? While people are still being blown to pieces both by US troops, and the resistance the occupation has spawned, in a cruel parody of evolution.
Yes, me and my “ilk” were warned. We didn’t ignore the warnings, we accepted them for what they were and decided that the costs were worth it. The Iraqis have said themselves that the cost of removing Saddam Hussein was worth it, so why can’t you? I killed 50,000 people? How many people would you have killed by continuing to allow Saddam Hussein to control Iraq and fund Hamas? How many more people would have died from Saddam’s sons taking over after his death?
You, just like Wolfdaughter, are caught up in comparing the situation now with an idealistic and utopian view that didn’t and wouldn’t have existed. We might as well put Hitler back into power in Germany and let the imperial Japanese have control over their empire again.
I think people like you are off their rocker, at least a little. Or someone is paying you o do this. I can’t get my head around anyone continuing to vigourously defend what is so clearly indefensible.
I’m off my rocker because I’d rather that 50,000 Iraqis die for freedom rather than hundreds of thousands? Alrighty then!
Oh, and again I will point out that the majority of Iraqis agree with moi. Yup, I’m off my rocker, along with the majority of Iraqis. You know, those people who this conflict is about?
August 5th, 2006 at 10:17 amCoughlan,
Such tripe. Yes we are the “selfish†ones because we object to you “killing them for their own goodâ€. This an example of the exactly the hopelessly optimistic fairytale that got you into Iraq in the first place. The very thing you are claiming on this thread never happened.
Yes, you’d rather have healthcare for yourself rather than give Iraqis the gift of freedom of speech. You’d rather that not a single US soldier died while thousands of Iraqis would have died trying to accomplish the same thing.
Spain, Portugal, Greece, East Block, South Africa … all without hardly a shot being fired. Set the example, support the moderates, put legislation in place to prosecute the seriously out of line, don’t be a hypocrite and the world does change. It has.
Were any of those countries Stalinist dictatorships of the latter 20th century? Nope. Try again.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:20 amI’m off my rocker because I’d rather that 50,000 Iraqis die for freedom rather than hundreds of thousands? Alrighty then!
No, you are off your rocker because you support what is clearly a disaster and yet have NO IDEA what the outcome would have been of other strategies.
I listed a lengthy list of countries where peaceful pressure over an extended period delivered the results. Without killing tens of thousands or risking millions. That is the lesson we learned from WWII, not the fatally flawed “massive force at the outset on the off chance they might have a go at world domination”.
As for this comment :
Were any of those countries Stalinist dictatorships of the latter 20th century? Nope. Try again.
Thats your yardstick is it? Some impossible to measure, narrowly defined definition, held within the confines of George Bushes brain, oh and you’re in on it too. C’mon.
You’ve certainly got self confidence, I’ll grant you that. You really seem to think everything to date was right, or as close to right as could reasonably be expected. When the daily spectacle of 100 dead Iraqis is clear cut evidence that you are truly deranged, and this thing is likely to get worse before it gets better. Who knows what the final butchers bill will be? Yet you confidently assert it was worth it. Wow …. you’ve learned nothing in the last 3 years, not a thing.
Under Saddam, Iraqis were kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered. Since you’ve removed him, people are still being kidnapped, raped, tortured, and murdered. Plus now they have no electricity, sewage treatment, or jobs. I’d call that a net loss.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:42 amAh yes, that reminds me of all the predictions before the war that there would be millions of dead, millions of refugees, and so on, and so forth. Did that happen? Nah.
So thats all right then, a “mere” 50 – 150K (without body counts it’s all a little confused) on your conscience, but you can take it. Tough guy.
As for comment about millions. I take the view that when there is a risk of millions of deaths, and an expanded conflict, which might yet happen, will involve those kinds of numbers. Or do you have some hopelessly optimistic view that such a development is vanishingly small? If not, you play loose and hard with the lives of millions of foreigners.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:47 amYou, just like Wolfdaughter, are caught up in comparing the situation now with an idealistic and utopian view that didn’t and wouldn’t have existed. We might as well put Hitler back into power in Germany and let the imperial Japanese have control over their empire again.
I reject this comment outright. That outrage at industrial scale murder is naive, and that acceptance that you “have to break a few eggs to make an omlette” is the rational and “adult” view.
That is such self serving nonsense. Your entire view of this is speculative. Mine is based on real deaths. Yours is a tottering tower of potential “what ifs”. Mine is here is what has happened.
Iraq is wrecked, fact.
At least 50,000 people are dead, fact.
Roughly 100 are dying violently every day, fact.
Lebanon is wrecked, fact.
At least 1000 people are dead, fact.
What have you got?
Saddam Hussein is in custody, fact.
Um … it could have been worse?
And we’re naive?
August 5th, 2006 at 10:54 amCoughlan,
No, you are off your rocker because you support what is clearly a disaster and yet have NO IDEA what the outcome would have been of other strategies.
Need I point to 1991 again? Need I point to the history and record of the regime of Saddam Hussein again? Only the willfully ignorant don’t know what the outcome would have been for other “strategies”.
I listed a lengthy list of countries where peaceful pressure over an extended period delivered the results. Without killing tens of thousands or risking millions. That is the lesson we learned from WWII, not the fatally flawed “massive force at the outset on the off chance they might have a go at world dominationâ€.
Yes, you did, but none of them are comparable to that of a Stalinist regime like what Saddam Hussein had and what Kim Jong Il still has. It depends entirely on the willingness of those in power to cede their power, which is simply nonexistent in NoKo and was also nonexistent in Iraq.
Thats your yardstick is it? Some impossible to measure, narrowly defined definition, held within the confines of George Bushes brain, oh and you’re in on it too. C’mon.
Yardstick? So you think comparing Saddam Hussein’s regime to what was going on in Greece back in the 1970s is valid? Not to mention that it is now the 21st century. I mean, do I really need to count all the ways in which Greece anno 1970 was different to that of Iraq anno 2003? C’mon, you’re flailing.
When the daily spectacle of 100 dead Iraqis is clear cut evidence that you are truly deranged, and this thing is likely to get worse before it gets better. Who knows what the final butchers bill will be? Yet you confidently assert it was worth it. Wow …. you’ve learned nothing in the last 3 years, not a thing.
I’m deranged because a small sector of Iraqis have chosen to use their newfound freedoms to slaughter their countrymen? I guess you better get out there protesting all the murders that are happening in the United States lest you be called deranged for pretending things are “OK” in the US. Things will get worse before they get better, as I have already said. The Iraqis themselves say that it has been worth it, and I stand with them, while you lecture me on not having learned anything. Huh?
You talked about my confidence, implying I am arrogant, yet here you are telling me that I am wrong to agree with the people who are being affected by this struggle. How’s that for arrogance? The Iraqis don’t know their own life, do they? Shameless.
Under Saddam, Iraqis were kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered. Since you’ve removed him, people are still being kidnapped, raped, tortured, and murdered. Plus now they have no electricity, sewage treatment, or jobs. I’d call that a net loss.
People are kidnapped, raped, tortured, and murdered in the USA every single day. What’s your point? Did you have one? There’s no difference between the government of a country raping and pillaging their people than private citizens committing crimes?
The Iraqis have no electricity, sewage treatment, or jobs?? Wow. Go read the Brookings Institute Iraq Index and get updated on the facts, because you are 100% wrong. Iraq has MORE electricity than before the war (last I checked), more potable water than before the war, and the job market is hard to gauge due to the complete differences between the former economic system and the one they have now. Iraqis now buy satellite dishes, watch private TV channels, and talk on cell phones. Oh, and Iraqis can now surf the internet, too. Yup, that’s a net loss alright – when you completely ignore all the facts.
So thats all right then, a “mere†50 – 150K (without body counts it’s all a little confused) on your conscience, but you can take it. Tough guy.
So, will you stand down on WWII then? With all the millions of people slaughtered there, will you have that on your conscience? What a shameless tactic. The Iraqis themselves say that, even taking everything that has happened into consideration, it was worth removing Saddam Hussein. Now you can try to smear me as some kind of bloodthirsty crazy person, but in the end, you are disagreeing with the very people you are pretending to stand aside.
As for comment about millions. I take the view that when there is a risk of millions of deaths, and an expanded conflict, which might yet happen, will involve those kinds of numbers. Or do you have some hopelessly optimistic view that such a development is vanishingly small? If not, you play loose and hard with the lives of millions of foreigners.
Kim Jong Il could nuke China tomorrow and kill a billion people. It could happen. Will it? Probably not. Yet according to you, we should invade North Korea right now then? Or what? You know, since there’s a chance of millions of people dying.
Yes, the view that millions of Iraqis will die as a result of all this is vanishingly small. You’re just repeating the mistakes of the anti-war from before the war right now. But go ahead, find me a single military expert who says that it is remotely likely that millions of Iraqis are going to die.
This is disgraceful. First you pretend that some scenario is likely, the deaths of millions of Iraqis. Then you accuse me of playing fast and loose with their lives. Nice.
That is such self serving nonsense. Your entire view of this is speculative. Mine is based on real deaths. Yours is a tottering tower of potential “what ifsâ€. Mine is here is what has happened.
Exactly. You never have to prove what you say, because what you wanted to happen is never going to happen, so you’ll never have to defend supporting it. It’s quite easy playing that game, isn’t it?
Yet as history has shown, such as in 1991, your fantasies of how things would have turned out better for the Iraqis is unsupported by the historical record.
Iraq is wrecked, fact.
It is? According to what gauge? Iraq is better off now in many ways than before the war. Iraq is also worse off in other areas, mainly security. I’m a centrist, and I don’t play the Black/White game. You do, though.
At least 50,000 people are dead, fact.
Most likely, yes. Quite many of them were fighting for Saddam Hussein, so you won’t see me shedding a tear for those. The rest are the unfortunate victims of a needless war – needless because Saddam Hussein could have just left Iraq and spared all of us all of the death. The fact that people are dead doesn’t mean that something is in itself wrong. If that were so, every single war in the history of man was wrong. Be careful where you tread with that.
Roughly 100 are dying violently every day, fact.
Yep. It’s too bad the Iraqis doing this won’t lay down their weapons and cooperate to prosper together. As is the case for the Palestinians, the Lebanese, and many others across the Middle East. Maybe some day they will understand that, but until then, we can only hope that the Iraqi government will prevail in taking out these scoundrels.
Lebanon is wrecked, fact.
Thank you Hezbollah!
What have you got?
Saddam Hussein is in custody, fact.
Um … it could have been worse?
And we’re naive?
Alright. You just exposed yourself again as a complete hack. A 30-year old dictatorship that tortured and pillaged a country of 25 million people has been uprooted. 25 million Iraqis have freedoms they never had before. Hamas has lost a major financier. There is one less maniac despot with designs on WMDs in the Middle East. I could go on and on, but it won’t matter. You don’t care.
I can see the bad and the good. You can only see the bad. I think that shows a thing or two about both of us.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:27 amunbelievable
“I think the Bush Regime should be held as war criminals as accomplices to the 9/11 “
You truly are so unbelievable that it makes me wonder:
DO YOU BELIEVE YOURSELF? MAYBE, OCCASIONALLY YOU DO?
OR,
YOU GIVE YOURSELF A “BENEFIT OF A DOUBT”? OCCASIONALLY?
August 5th, 2006 at 11:48 amRoughly 100 are dying violently every day, fact.
Yep. It’s too bad the Iraqis doing this won’t lay down their weapons and cooperate to prosper together.
Lebanon is wrecked, fact.
Thank you Hezbollah!
As usual, it’s all someone elses fault. The glorious blueprint for Iraq and the middle east isn’t being embraced by the people you’ve come to save. Mercy. My Goodness.
Yes Sexion, in your world, there is no cause and effect, events happen in absolute isolation from each other. Jesus, humans knew this stuff in the 16th century.
As for your “they are free now meme, hallelujah”, tossed in of course without any reference to the reality that no one would have endorsed an invasion for such speculative nonsense. Not even republicans. The following bears repeating :
Under Saddam, Iraqis were kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered. Since you’ve removed him, people are still being kidnapped, raped, tortured, and murdered. Plus now they have no electricity, sewage treatment, or jobs. I’d call that a net loss.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:54 amRoughly 100 are dying violently every day, fact.
Yep. It’s too bad the Iraqis doing this won’t lay down their weapons and cooperate to prosper together.
Lebanon is wrecked, fact.
Thank you Hezbollah!
As usual, it’s all someone elses fault. The glorious blueprint for Iraq and the middle east isn’t being embraced by the people you’ve come to save. Mercy. My Goodness.
Yes Sexion, in your world, there is no cause and effect, events happen in absolute isolation from each other. Jesus, humans knew this stuff in the 16th century.
As for your “they are free now, hallelujah. I’m really an altruist†meme, tossed in as usual without any reference to the reality that no one would have endorsed an invasion for such speculative nonsense. Not even republicans. The following bears repeating :
Under Saddam, Iraqis were kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered. Since you’ve removed him, people are still being kidnapped, raped, tortured, and murdered. Plus now they have no electricity, sewage treatment, or jobs. I’d call that a net loss.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:56 amCoughlan,
As usual, it’s all someone elses fault. The glorious blueprint for Iraq and the middle east isn’t being embraced by the people you’ve come to save. Mercy. My Goodness.
Ah yes, everything is Bush’s fault, I forgot. The people doing the killing have no fault at all, it’s all Bush! Don’t you see! All the murders happening in the USA – Bush’s fault! It’s all clear to me now, thanks for showing me the way to a land where criminals have no fault! Here you are pretending that the people doing all the killing in Iraq represent the people of Iraq as a whole – a typical mistake of the anti-war left. That in itself reveals the whole reason why TP even made this post – because to them, the ones protesting in the streets against the US and Israel are synonymous with the entire Iraqi population, no matter what the truth actually is.
Millions upon millions of Iraqis are being peaceful and working for the exact goal we had for their country, going to the voting booths, joining the military to fight insurgents and terrorist. Yet here you are, pretending that they do not exist, and that the insurgents are the only ones that matter. Tell me again why you hate humanity so much that you take murderers to represent a whole country?
Yes Sexion, in your world, there is no cause and effect, events happen in absolute isolation from each other. Jesus, humans knew this stuff in the 16th century.
So you are saying that all the Sunnis and Shiites killing each other HAVE to do that because we removed Saddam Hussein? No, they don’t – that’s their own choice. You are blaming the Bush administration for the selfish actions of some Iraqis.
As for your “they are free now meme, hallelujahâ€, tossed in of course without any reference to the reality that no one would have endorsed an invasion for such speculative nonsense. Not even republicans.
Which is a shame and shows that most people are selfish and only seek to undo the horrible things going on in this world if they themselves feel threatened. Isolationism gone amok. That’s what brought us WWII. Remember that.
Under Saddam, Iraqis were kidnapped, raped, tortured and murdered. Since you’ve removed him, people are still being kidnapped, raped, tortured, and murdered. Plus now they have no electricity, sewage treatment, or jobs. I’d call that a net loss.
And again, I will point out that all of these things happen in every single country in the world, and there is a difference between the government doing these things and private citizens doing them.
I will also again point out that your claims of no electricity, etc, are completely false.
The pre-war level for electricity was 3958MW. In July 2006 it was 4400MW. The nation-wide average amount of electricity per day has gone from 4-8 pre-war to 11.8 in July 2006 – a doubling.
The sewer coverage is around 6 million as it was pre-war.
I mean, come on, you are just spouting nonsense.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:49 pmAfter the deaths of thousands ,the destruction of Faluja , a war based on reasoning that turned out to all be entirely inaccurate ,by a group of fascists who wrote pre 911 of their intentions to invade in order to establish domination over ther rest of the planet ,in a country which is sliding into a civil war Seixon believes this administration hasn’t made any mistakes whatsoever .The deaths of 1000’s are mere growing pains in the scope of history .WHATEVER .
August 5th, 2006 at 1:06 pmAnd by the way 50 000 is the most conservative estimate imaginable and doesn’t include the wounded ,orphaned or homeless .a year ago pbs new program posted over 100 000 fatalities as the most conservative reliable e estimate .
Seixon:
Mr. Jay Randal has been running around saying you’ve been banned at T.P..Well,I guess he’s wrong (again).
August 5th, 2006 at 1:15 pmJay Randal is a rumour-monger.
your right seiton this mess is bushes fault , I agree .Republicans control both houses of congress ,the executive and despite the Justice is blind fairy tale ,the supreme court as well . That means this mess is yours ! We were attacked while W was sleeping at the wheel and any fool can see we are far,far less safe today then we were before W took office !
August 5th, 2006 at 1:17 pmThe plan is to dominate the world by controlling the ME and that would be a little hard to debate because the criminals confessed before even committing the crime and that my friend according to treaty is an unambiguous war crime !
someday we as a species will ban hate mongering ,but till then we’ll have to put up with this inexcusable ignorance masquerading as political debate .Yes by all means lets discuss the finer points of Nazism .Gee arent you a witty fascist .
August 5th, 2006 at 1:24 pmI hope they pay you well for this satan ,oh buy the way what does a soulsell for these days ?
August 5th, 2006 at 1:29 pmTyrant –o-Soros Pax
Something have had influenced you so greatly, that you have decided to change you blog name.
Curiously, what that might have been?
Not that I am curious, are you aware of what it was?
August 5th, 2006 at 1:36 pmwhile 10’s of 1000’s die, 1 jew plays at word games .How endearing .
August 5th, 2006 at 1:39 pmshaman
“Mr. Jay Randal has been running around…”
He, Mr. Jay Randal, is also thoroughly shy of his KKK membership I have assisted him getting (bus-tard owes me a finders fee).
Suddenly, he also have decided to declare of him being “political activist and writer in Stone Mountain, Georgiaâ€.
Flop-flipping is in fashion. Who made it fashionable, can’t remember….
August 5th, 2006 at 1:41 pmfreeman
“…buy the way what does a soulsell for these days ?”
u wonder if you made a good deal?
August 5th, 2006 at 1:43 pmwith the transparent culpability of this administration in war crimes and domestic crimes against the citizens of America ,the trolls are reduced to insults ,word games and winning their own arguments .It is beginning to look like this will be a good day in America after all .The population here is beginning to realize the blatant criminality of war co. and the best they can do is lie ,and misdirect which isn’t working any better with the public at this stage then their failed foreign policies are .People are only beginning to realize that the PNAC exists and that their agenda is likely to lead to a MAJOR conflict in the worlds most volatile and arguably important region .The supremes have spoken .The American bar association has spoken and bush has been caught on film making blatant lies to the American public over domestic spying .
August 5th, 2006 at 1:58 pmFactor in Iraq’s slide to civil war , and the raising of the specter of the draft and it’s only a matter of time before El Duce meets his appointed fate .
Ah yes, everything is Bush’s fault, I forgot. The people doing the killing have no fault at all, it’s all Bush! Don’t you see! All the murders happening in the USA – Bush’s fault!
Sorry Sexion, you cannot pin that on me. I have frequently posted my abhorrence of terrorism, and political violence. I see that the guys pulling the trigger are guilty, of course, only an idiot would assume otherwise.
Likewise only an idiot could fail to see the obvious chain of cause and effect leading up the pulling of the trigger.
So you are 2 for 2. Congrats:-(
August 5th, 2006 at 1:59 pmNote to Mighty:
August 5th, 2006 at 1:59 pmHave you met Cindy Sheehan? Have you spoken with her?
I have. She is not a whack job (like yourself). She truly cares about the country and is willing to work for change (unlike you).
You shouldn’t be talking trash about people who are only trying to help all of us.
And that’s the last time, I swear, that I will feed that particular troll. What a waste of time it is, MA never learns anything.
One Jew:
So,Mr. Jay Randal is a K.K.K. member huh?
He is also known to fascinate and write alot about Jeff Gannon.
(see how this works Jay? ain’t it fun to be a rumour-monger)?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:01 pmBrian Coughlan
“I see that the guys pulling the trigger are guilty, of course, only an idiot would assume otherwise.
Likewise only an idiot could fail to see the obvious chain of cause and effect leading up the pulling of the trigger.”
Sounds like you feeding your wisdom from Hollywood.
Is that your only source of information?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:01 pmSKdeA
“…people who are only trying to help all of us.”
No-no. You have not learned anything, if you STILL do not know that the most harm comes from people who are “trying to help”.
How old are you?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:04 pmSKdeA
Oh, yeah……
Am I troll too?
August 5th, 2006 at 2:05 pmshaman
“So,Mr. Jay Randal …”
I do not really give a pony tail about who or what he is…
I asked him for his Legal Name, Legal address, DOB, SSN, Credit Card # and expiration date and he refused to give it to me and then disappeared…..
What an a-bone!!!!!!!
August 5th, 2006 at 2:09 pmokay so remember trolls , when you have no arguments worth proposing ,slander ,lie about the facts, play word games ,and put words in your opponents mouths and then handily defeat them on the things they never really said .Good job ,see how easy it is to make fools of yourselves .
August 5th, 2006 at 2:10 pmfreeman
“see how easy it is to make fools of yoursel”f?
one suppose to finish a sentence with a question by a question mark. Like this: ‘?’
from preschool tutorial.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:17 pmpre meditated war over control of resources is a war crime ,is there anything left to say ? The bushies signed there names to statements telegraphing their intentions to commit crimes against humanity .Care to disagree ?That paperwork now has a world wide audience ! You people want to really go on the record as saying you support THAT ? Talk away ,until you can make plain fact stand on its head , you won’t be able to win any converts !SORRY !!!
August 5th, 2006 at 2:22 pmWonder jew
August 5th, 2006 at 2:25 pmI guess you haven’t read your own postings here ,they’re filled with typo’s ,mis spelled words and bad grammar .
wonder jew ,in all honesty you are the worst ,least effective troll I have seen post here.Your spelling grammar and command of the English language is pitiful ,honestly ! All of which I could happily ignore if you actually had anything to say .Correct me if I’m wrong English isn’t your native language .
August 5th, 2006 at 2:37 pmPlease ,post away ,your doing a wonderful job of making the far right look bad !
#420 – Skiddaddle asks:
“Have you met Cindy Sheehan?”
*****No, I wouldn’t waste her time or mine.
“She is not a whack job (unlike yourself).
***** Both nuggets are your opinion – of which, I care little or nothing. Re: “She’s not a shack job.” – Perhaps not initially. Before her son’s death she was a liberal Northern California mom with marital problems. She IS a grieving mother who blames the “evil” GWB for her precious son, Casey, enlisting TWICE, and ending in his horrible death.
“She truly cares about the country and is willing to work for change (unlike you).”
******So she says. Of course, she has every right to grieve, protest and associate with whom she likes. I don’t believe she cares about “the country” as you assert – I believe she is VERY invested in liberal/progressive/communist politics and is enjoying her moment in the spotlight. (I believe her affiliation with HUGo Chavez, and his association with Iran – completely undermines her message. Of course, the 17% of the population who gladly (why??) identify themselves as “liberals, extreme liberal, progressives, socialists, secular humanists and anarchists” seem to think she is the PERFECT spokeswoman for their cause du ‘jour. I wholeheartedly agree…
“You shouldn’t be talking trash about people who are only trying to help all of us.”
******I’m only trying to help you and you “talk trash” about me on occasion….so I guess that statement has about as much merit as the gum on your shoe…
P.S. The First Amendment allows us to agree to disagree – do you have a problem with that??? No need to answer since you’re not going to address me any longer.
P.S.S. I don’t need Cindy’s help – if you do, you’re in worse shape than I previously thought…..
Dear OJ – Congratulations!!!! You have officially joined the ranks of THE Trolls!! Be careful, with poor Brian Coughlan – he tends to be a bit morose and guilt-ridden – so I now try to treat that poor thing gently…. SKed.. is about 14 – I have decided that a Social Studies teacher assigned students mandatory participation in a progressive blog – in exchange, the NEA was giving a percentage break on the hike in union dues…
Happy Saturday….we’re off to the beach…..
August 5th, 2006 at 2:53 pmMighty Moron, Have you figured out just who “our friends and allies who did not desert us in our civil war”are yet?
August 5th, 2006 at 3:25 pm#432 – MA,
August 5th, 2006 at 3:28 pmTry the one off Beirut, spectacular fireworks (and they are free (Disney charges $67 for a day-pass now.)).
#434 – me,
August 5th, 2006 at 3:31 pmActually, not free if you are an American taxpayer.
You have officially joined the ranks of THE Trolls!! Be careful, with poor Brian Coughlan – he tends to be a bit morose and guilt-ridden
Having empathy for your fellow human beings is not a bad thing MA. I’m sorry if my conscience is bothering you, but since you clearly don’t have one of your own, perhaps thats not such a bad thing.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:46 pmYou truly are so unbelievable that it makes me wonder:
DO YOU BELIEVE YOURSELF? MAYBE, OCCASIONALLY YOU DO?
‘unbelievable’ generally means good beyond belief, so thanks…
OR, YOU GIVE YOURSELF A “BENEFIT OF A DOUBT� OCCASIONALLY?
Comment by One Jew — August 5, 2006 @ 11:48 am
You’re a hateful little shit aren’t you.
In this country, accomplices to crimes are guilty of a crime. Bush did nothing to stop 9/11, despite being told Osama was going to attack us. He didn’t take a CIA report seriously and instead went on vacation. That makes him liable, even if he didn’t pull the trigger.
Read some books. You seem to need an education.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:25 pmI asked him for his Legal Name, Legal address, DOB, SSN, Credit Card # and expiration date and he refused to give it to me and then disappeared…..
Comment by One Jew — August 5, 2006 @ 2:09 pm
You give your info first.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:34 pmBrian, How did the lawn turn out?
Regarding your posting #386 from last night: “I have over the last few years, come to the conclusion that we must reject all violence that breaches the bounds of normal policing ”
It’s a nice thought, Brian. I don’t think there is anyone here who likes war or who doesn’t understand that it brings death, maiming, and misery. And I don’t think there is anyone hear who doesn’t wish all the world’s differences could be addressed peacefully or with the low-levels of violence associated with “normal policing.” And maybe that will be possible one day.
But, I just don’t see how it is possible in today’s world. How is the global community to stop a Milosevic from carrying out ethnic cleansing in the Balkans with “normal policing methods?” How is the world to stop a Saddam Hussein from carrying out his murderous policies with “normal policing methods?” How was the United States to seek justice and attempt to prevent another 9/11 at the hands of Al Qaeda through “normal policing methods?”
I just don’t see how it can be done. It is a sad reality that military action is sometimes necessary to stop truly evil events from proceeding.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:54 pm#432 – To the aptly named HO – Answer an NVA? I don’t think sooo….
OJ – Our resident atheist, spinster, schoolmarm missed “law” the day she pretended to go to law school…
August 5th, 2006 at 6:53 pmExley – ProgREX and the rest of the “useful idiots” could save themselves so much time and energy sympathizing with the barbarians if the would just “cut and paste” rather than “cut and run”. The PDA (Progressive Democrats of America) website is replete with the same garbage. This Clash of Civilizations will be a true test for Western Culture – much to the chagrin of our resident traitors and enemy sympathizers….
August 5th, 2006 at 7:35 pm#432 – To the aptly named HO – Answer an NVA? I don’t think sooo….
OJ – Our resident atheist, spinster, schoolmarm missed “law†the day she pretended to go to law school…
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 5, 2006 @ 6:53 pm
Exley – ProgREX and the rest of the “useful idiots†could save themselves so much time and energy sympathizing with the barbarians if the would just “cut and paste†rather than “cut and runâ€. The PDA (Progressive Democrats of America) website is replete with the same garbage. This Clash of Civilizations will be a true test for Western Culture – much to the chagrin of our resident traitors and enemy sympathizers….
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 5, 2006 @ 7:35 pm
August 5th, 2006 at 9:36 pmMy bald-fat-sweaty-loser, your last two posts are inane jibberish. You are now so detached from reality you can’t even fake an intelligent comment. BTW-exley is just like seixon- cowards who would never risk their a$$e$ for anything or anyone -just like you. That is why tou support the worst world leader in history.
It seems a sadder reality that
August 5th, 2006 at 9:40 pmthe military action that some think is sometimes necessary to stop truly evil events from proceeding.
is truly the evil event itself.
wow. we’ve got tweedle dumb (shaman), tweedle dumber (mighty tripey), and tweedle-i’m-a complete-idiot (mad jew). oh and also seixon, who actually makes coherent arguments sometimes. if any of the rest of you trolling morons actually presented any arguments with, you know, FACTS, you might be worth debating. but that’s fine, your infantile comments show you for who you really are.
for your info, tripey, exley and i have had a long-standing disagreement and we finally settled it amicably. imagine that. interesting how when you conduct a debate from an angle that isn’t “you moonbats are crazy” you actually get somewhere. but you’re utterly hopeless, and always have been. you’re a fraud, you hide behind a made-up identity. maybe if you had ever made an effort to back up what you say with any evidence, you’d be more interesting than the steaming turd you are. how is anyone supposed to take you seriously when all you ever do here is spread your steaming turdiness?
it must be irritating for right-wing ideologues to have their own catchy bullshit phrases used against them. and i find it completely ironic and hypocritical that until 2001, as far as the right was concerned, the government was not to be trusted and needed to get out of our lives, and for some reason now you mindlessly parrot exactly what they tell you, and the government demonstrably taking your rights away is suddenly just fine. if clinton had been doing these things you’d be screaming bloody murder; that is undeniable. i’ve never changed. i didn’t trust the government then, and i don’t trust it now.
you might be proud of the version of america we have now, but i certainly am not. and living in another country, i see firsthand the damage that has been done to our prestige. due to the actions we have taken, america has enemies we did not have before — not “islamofascists”, or whatever the fashionable word is for them now, but people in the uk, germany, france, south korea, denmark, canada and elsewhere. people i have spoken to firsthand that are convinced america is out of control.
if, in your version of reality, that is a desirable result of our actions, then you are, quite frankly, hopeless. and good riddance.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:23 pm“I will restore honesty and integrity to the White House”, George Bush in 2000. The beginning of the unbounded string of lies.
August 6th, 2006 at 12:17 amTyrant-o-Soros Pax
Did u come?
August 6th, 2006 at 12:30 amcos…
if u did, tell it to unbelievable
August 6th, 2006 at 12:32 am# 443 p.rex:
‘’steaming turdiness”? OH SNAP !
That’s a good one;can I borrow that line along with your crayons?
You really are a great debater.(sarcasm/off).