ThinkFast: August 5, 2006
ThinkFast: August 5, 2006
Though the Bush administration “pushed hard for a Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon” last year, it “paid much less attention” to fostering democracy in the country afterwards. “We did nothing, we did absolutely nothing” to bolster the weak Lebanese government after the Syrian withdrawal, a State Department official admitted.
The office of National Intelligence Director John Negroponte “announced yesterday that it will soon begin drafting an updated National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq,” a victory for progressive senators who called for a new NIE last week.
If Congress doesn’t act to raise the minimum wage by December 1, “it will be the longest stretch without an increase since the minimum wage was enacted in 1938.”
“July marked a new all-time record for electricity use in the United States, and that was prior to even hotter weather straining the power grid this week.”
30: The percentage of Fort Irwin soldiers who have returned from Iraq “experiencing some symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder,” such as “nightmares, problems sleeping, anger, anxiety, detachment from the outside world and intrusive thoughts or flashbacks.”
Democratic senators blocked several Bush nominees Friday, including two industry-linked officials nominated to oversee mine safety, and an EPA air quality nominee who helped write new rules easing air pollution standards on mercury emissions and elecricity plants.
Israeli airstrikes yesterday killed “at least 33 Syrian Kurdish farm workers” in “one of the single deadliest strikes of the war,” and destroyed “four bridges on a key aid route leading north from Beirut.” Hezbollah militants fired “more than 200 rockets at northern towns and villages, killing three civilians and injuring dozens.”
The AP reports, “Given the determination of both Hezbollah and Israel to look victorious when the conflict finally ends, the worst of the fighting may still lie ahead with the militant Shiite guerrilla fighters perhaps making good on their threat to rocket Tel Aviv and Israel launching an all-out ground offensive.”
And finally: City officials in Oregon, Ill. have agreed to change the name of a monument to agriculture that is scheduled to be put up outside a local judicial center. The original title — “Demeter Over Illinois” — was rejected after “some religious leaders in town” complained that it was “too polytheistic.” The statue’s new name will be “Agriculture, Mother of Civilization.”
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30: The percentage of Fort Irwin soldiers who have returned from Iraq “experiencing some symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder,†such as “nightmares, problems sleeping, anger, anxiety, detachment from the outside world and intrusive thoughts or flashbacks.â€
The longer I am alive the more and more I believe that offensive violence is the most destructive force of humanity. Whether it is rape, child abuse or militaries attacking countries for pre-emptive reasons, I cannot think of any greater negative to our species than violence as a means for an offense.
Only peace begets peace. George Bush brought violence to Iraq looking to gain peace. Instead, his offensive violence has simply garnered him more violence. Good job Georgie. You’ll go down as the worst President in history. And deservedly so.
August 5th, 2006 at 8:27 amThe original title — “Demeter Over Illinois†— was rejected after “some religious leaders in town†complained that it was “too polytheistic.â€
But the 10 commandments in government buildings is okay? Just as long as they are getting their way, the religious nuts in this country are happy.
They truly don’t get that the freedom of choice is beneficial to them should they ever become the minority….
August 5th, 2006 at 8:30 amGood Morning Unbelievable and all, good posts as usual……How’s work going.? Still hot weather where you are.? Cooler here in the pacific north west. I am grateful for that..
Terrible month for Lebanon and her people also Iraq…..It seems to me this administration and Israel had a plan of how far they were going to go and how much damage they were going to inflict before they called a peace. How can they kill and invade a little country killing nearly 700 people for the kidnapping of 2 soldiers.? Never mind all the imprisoned Lebonese that are being held in Israel jails. Lebanon didn’t attack and invade….What’s wrong with everything since this maniac bush took over.? I am so ashamed of our country..Backing more terrorests, that’s what Israel has become. Every day they make a huge deal of their losses and very little about the hundreds they have killed…..Why do people think Israel’s dead are more important than Lebsanon’s….All life is important….
I’m not staying here very long today, going to a memorial for my dear friend……Blessings, the world needs them…Tolerance, the world needs to practice it….Peace, demand it now.
August 5th, 2006 at 8:50 amSorry for the miss spelled Lebanon and other errors…Not enough coffee yet and my fingers are not working well…….Blessings
August 5th, 2006 at 8:54 amHi Sharon,
Sorry to hear about your friend. Is it the same one you already mentioned or someone new? Sad.
Things are good here. Hotter than ever, unfortunately, but that is starting to give credence to the realities of Global Warming. I detest August in Atlanta. There is no outside time beside going to and from work. Because I work at a Charter School, I am allowed to hold class in other applicable locations, which the students and I both want to do, as our building isn’t exactly inspirational architecturally :). But I told them that we probably won’t do that until the heat wave passes.
I heard about the open letter to Bill Clinton that a Lebanese official wrote – deploring him to intervene in the Israeli attacks on them. It was heart wrenching. We have to get a liberal majority in the House and Senate in November. At least make the Bush Regime into a lame duck for the next two years. Otherwise, I am truly beginning to worry about when we will become a war zone, as the rest of the free world decides to stop Hitler Redux…
Enjoy your day! I’m actually going to try and get prepare for next week. It’s a lot of effort starting a new program in a new school… But it’s been worth it. I already have them recycling unused items from their parent’s garages to make something functional so they will learn to think outside the box in environmentally-friendly ways :).
August 5th, 2006 at 9:29 am…Negroponte “announced yesterday that it will soon begin drafting an updated National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq,†…
yea yea yea… promises promises…
August 5th, 2006 at 10:04 amit’s not a “victory” until those prog senators have it in hand…
we’d better remind them, and hold them to it…
the reasoning is, of course, wrong-headed, but i’m glad for the name change… “Demeter Over Illinois†sounds like some kind of fallout or such…
August 5th, 2006 at 10:10 amhowever, the new name called to mind frank zappa!
Democratic senators blocked several Bush nominees Friday…
hoo-ray! that’s what we need! more! more! better late than never…
be sure to call and/or write to say so, and thanks!
August 5th, 2006 at 10:14 am#2. Worse than that… they play the “oh poor oppressed us” role when they’re the ones with the power.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:15 amI love the pre-election stuff going on in the puke party.
According to Americablog and Rawstory, Ken Mehlman has issued a memo to all pukes running for re-election telling them that they are on their own, except for the almighty dollar that is.
The RNC is advising candidates to distance themselves from Bush, and also to distance themselves from congress and to run on their own, touting whatever it takes to get elected.
Now that is a fine kettle of fish. If you cant, as a candidate, run with your president, and cant run on your congressional record, what the hell can you possibly run on?
All I know is the pukes are running scared and I hope like hell the dems use this knowledge to their advantage.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:37 amRegarding Lebanon, when nothing is done, why is the US to blame? It was the UN that passed the resolution demanding Hezbollah disarm, so why didn’t the UN disarm Hezbollah? The UN had multiple outpost in Lebanon, so you can’t say NOTHING was done, but it is clear that the UN failed to enforce its own resolution. It is the UN that is to blame, and that is why John Bolton is kicking their butts to get that useless organization working again.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:38 am#10 –
Great question. History would indicate that distancing oneself from the President is not the smartest idea for a candidate of any office.
Remember Gore in 2000? That didn’t work out so well.
Neither did 1994 when Democrats sought to distance themselves from an unpopular President in a midterm.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:46 amUnbelievable, yes, the same friend..He was a great example to live by..Never wasted or used more than needed. Recycled everything he didn’t share and conserved everything..He left nothing but his foot prints on our hearts behind, gave everything away the last few months of his life…I miss his company and wisdom..
Great teaching the young to do a better job than most of the present population…That alone should be a great reward….I have been a water conserver for 40 years..By choice and need, when a person has a 5 gallon hot water heater you treat the liquid gold with respect.. Oil is not going to be our major problem in the future, water will be…When I had a big orchard I moved the water to the tree bowls and timed it so I would know how many gallons based on my well and pump capacity. For years I have showered just like the sailors do, water on rinse turn water off, soap down and shampoo, water on and rinse off…..The animels and I use 2 gallons of water for drinking per day, 5 gallons for showering and another 3 for dishes and clean up. I only water my plants every other day (outside) if needed…..I recycle everything I can and am not much of a consumer……
Great to hear Kate, I will do that now……..Blessings all
August 5th, 2006 at 10:47 amhttp://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/08/03/iraq/main1861448.shtml
Iraq likely to split up
http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/meast/08/05/mideast.main/index.html
US-French truce deal
August 5th, 2006 at 11:15 am#1, unbelieveable,
If you can’t think of a more destructive force, then you aren’t trying very hard.
Did you feel better about the !,000+ people who died in New Orleans, because it was a hurricane that killed them, or the 10’s or 100’s of thousands who died in the sunami at Christmas, or the millions that die of disease or starvation?
All these large scale deaths are the result of poor policies by local / state governments that did not plan properly, or didn’t have the courage to demand their people take measures to take care of themselves. Nanny-state governments that promise whatever a population wants to hear, to allow them to hold power, then abandons their needs out of fear of losing that power, is a far more destructive force then regional skirmishes.
Moreover, using force to contain or neutralize evil forces, although causing some death, are far better than the appeasement type responses that lead to the deaths of 10’s or 100’s of millions of people in WWII.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:20 amYay! ThinkFast on a Saturday! Thanks, Judd!
Good morning, all. It’s a beautiful day in Idaho.
Sharon, sorry to hear about your friend. He left nothing but his foot prints on our hearts behind, gave everything away the last few months of his life…I miss his company and wisdom..
That’s one of the most beautiful things I read in a long time. Peace.
unbelievable,
The longer I am alive the more and more I believe that offensive violence is the most destructive force of humanity. Whether it is rape, child abuse or militaries attacking countries for pre-emptive reasons, I cannot think of any greater negative to our species than violence as a means for an offense.
Quite true, and well said.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:22 amJason,
I can’t believe you’re comparing violence committed by man upon man to natural disasters. You criticize the “nanny state,” while also criticizing and blaming the people who live in the nanny state. The time for empowering the people is not in the week before the impending disaster.
Also, “using force to contain or neutralize evil forces” finds its roots in offensive violence, which is exactly the point.
This is just me response to you, Jason, I don’t speak for unbelievable.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:37 amThough the Bush administration “pushed hard for a Syrian withdrawal from Lebanon†last year, it “paid much less attention†to fostering democracy in the country afterwards. “We did nothing, we did absolutely nothing†to bolster the weak Lebanese government after the Syrian withdrawal, a State Department official admitted.
Exposing the lie of GWB’s desire to spread democracy throughout the region.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:38 amThe office of National Intelligence Director John Negroponte “announced yesterday that it will soon begin drafting an updated National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq,†a victory for progressive senators who called for a new NIE last week.
I’m sure they will express their regret that they won’t be able to finish before the November elections.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:39 amThat’s Great! I think we should purge all Greek god references from our soceity!
We’ll start by purging all records of the Apollo, Mercury and Gemini space programs!
Then we’ll be safe from the influence of evil Greek Mythology!
August 5th, 2006 at 11:41 amDemocratic senators blocked several Bush nominees Friday, including two industry-linked officials nominated to oversee mine safety, and an EPA air quality nominee who helped write new rules easing air pollution standards on mercury emissions and elecricity plants.
Did you hear that, Georgie? The answer is NO.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:41 am#17, Zooey,
unbelieveable said:
I refuted that statement by showing that it is bad local / state government that leads to more death and destruction, by neglecting to teach people to prepare to fend for themselves through natural or economic crises, and it was weak European governments willing to appease Hitler instead of confronting him the moment he moved into Czechoslavakia, that leads to far more deaths than mere mano e mano violence.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:44 amJason – I might make one slight change to this quote:
I would say the appeasment, the disinclination to engage Nazi Germany, directly precipitated the armed combat.
I agree with your central theory though.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:52 amJason,
You and I are reading that statement differently. I believe you are reading it more literally than I.
Most certainly, bad policy and natural disasters cause massive death and destruction of human-kind.
My point is that offensive violence by man upon man, wreaks havoc upon our humanity itself.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:53 amSo Georgei’s down at the ranch for a week or so, doing the important work, such as clearing that pesky brush, while the Middle East destroys itself. Anybody know if Cindy Sheehan will be joining him?
August 5th, 2006 at 11:57 amLike so many neoconservatives, Jason M. Hendler compares the “evil forces” {he does not say where but the assumption is that those “evil forces” are centered in Iraq} with those that threatened the world during WW II. It is always best if one is centered in the reality-based community when one attempts to make any kind of an intellectual argument. Adolf Hitler had many divisions in Germany which he threatened to use in order to attempt to conquer most of the civilized world. Saddam Hussein never had, after the first Persian Gulf War, enough divisions to instill fear in his neighbors, much less the most powerful nation on earth, the United States. Those “evil forces”, by which one assumes is supposed to be a synonym for the terrorists, only comprise SEVEN per cent {not seventy} of those forces which are aligned against the coalition forces in Iraq. This we know because Congressman Murtha has repeatedly stated this on many occasions. As many analysts have pointed out, the United States has become the catalyst for the increasing violence that has spiraled out of control in Iraq. In the past, fear mongering helped to keep in line those who may have wished to question the government. Perhaps, just perhaps, the people in this country have finally realized that those scare tactics advocated by the warmongers are no longer working and that is evidenced by the fact that U.S. citizens have finally stated that they are in favor of the U.S. withdrawing the troops from that quagmire in Iraq.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:05 pm30: The percentage of Fort Irwin soldiers who have returned from Iraq “experiencing some symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder,†such as “nightmares, problems sleeping, anger, anxiety, detachment from the outside world and intrusive thoughts or flashbacks.â€
And these are the ones who are willing to admit it.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:07 pmI don’t propose to speak for Jason but I would conclude that by “evil forces”, “Islamic fundamentalism” is intended.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:13 pmCity officials in Oregon, Ill. have agreed to change the name of a monument to agriculture that is scheduled to be put up outside a local judicial center. The original title — “Demeter Over Illinois†— was rejected after “some religious leaders in town†complained that it was “too polytheistic.â€
“Too polytheistic.” I take it that means one too many than christian?
August 5th, 2006 at 12:14 pmI don’t propose to speak for Jason but I would conclude that by “evil forcesâ€, “Islamic fundamentalism†is intended.
Comment by Chase
It could also be argued that Christian fundamentists are evil forces.
Disclaimer: I am not saying that’s what Jason meant — those are my words only.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:17 pm#30 – A lot of things “could be argued” but that doesn’t mean they are correct.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:22 pmChase, are you “arguing” that christian fundamentalism is not an evil force?
August 5th, 2006 at 12:23 pmI’m saying that to conflate fundamentalist Islam and Christian fundamentalism would be a mistake.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:25 pmI forgot to take note of this earlier:
July alos marked an all-time record for population in the United States.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:26 pmIn what way, Chase?
August 5th, 2006 at 12:26 pm#35 is referring to #33
August 5th, 2006 at 12:27 pmI think you’re going to have to make the affirmative argument.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:28 pm“When Hillary and Rummy square off, it is a gladiatorial contest of two masters at hauteur, self-righteousness, scriptedness, infighting and belief in their own manifest destiny.†Maureen Dowd, Henny Penny Harridan.
I only wish that Dowd would take on Rummy more and go after the Clintons less. And while it’s suspicious that she’s now getting passionate in an election year about a war that’s long since turned south, Hillary didn’t get us into Iraq or keep us in Iraq.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:28 pmI think you’re going to have to make the affirmative argument.
Comment by Chase
You’re the one who made this statement:
I’m saying that to conflate fundamentalist Islam and Christian fundamentalism would be a mistake.
I’m just inquiring as to why YOU feel that way. I can’t make that argument for you.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:31 pma victory for progressive senators who called for a new NIE last week
August 5th, 2006 at 12:33 pmnote to self: SEND THINK PROGRESS A DICTIONARY OR SOMETHING. if these people think reid, biden, and rockefeller are ‘progressive’, they are terribly wrong.
I only wish that Dowd would take on Rummy more and go after the Clintons less. And while it’s suspicious that she’s now getting passionate in an election year about a war that’s long since turned south, Hillary didn’t get us into Iraq or keep us in Iraq.
wow, i finally disagree with the jurassicpork… disingenuousness must be called no matter the party or the ‘royalty-level’ of the person speaking. the clintons are not beyond guilt when we are speaking about war. bill was quite the arms-trader–in fact, he was one of the biggest of the 20th century!
as rumsfeld would say, ‘do i want to have to admit that? no. is it unfortunate that it is true? yes. do i wish it were otherwise? yes.’
and, as for hillary: but for the fact that lieberman is going to get his hat handed to him in 72 hours, hillary would be continuing her political nonsense on being ‘pro-war’.
maureen is beyond party and calls it as she sees it. that is a goal we all should strive for because it is more damned honest than suckling at the teat of the clintons and the special interests before saying what is true and what isn’t.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:42 pmAny of the Abrahamic religions can be invoked for violent causes.
In the modern world, Christian fundamentalism is much less a threat to the safety and security of others than Islamic fundamentalism.
The principle example I can think of: you won’t be hearing about Christian suicide bombers anytime soon. In the Muslim world. not only is that kind of terrorist attack accepted, it’s honored.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:43 pmyou won’t be hearing about Christian suicide bombers anytime soon
there is no real distinction between a volunteer in the united states armed forces and a suicide bomber. they are both willing to volunteer to die for what they believe in and kill those that disagree with their ideological beliefs.
it is all about the ideology of blood, domination, and superiority. just because your soldiers wear pressed, green outfits does not make them more deadly, or more animalistic.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:48 pmyes, judd – thank you for Saturday ThinkFast!
(sorry, in my haste this morning, waiting for my mom, i forgot that)
about cindy sheehan – she was on randi’s show wed. 8/2:
Cindy leaves for Jordan tonight to meet with members of Iraq’s parliament and then she’s off to Lebanon.
Leading Members of Iraqi Parliament Call for Meeting
with Anti-War Hunger Strikers
http://www.troopshomefast.org/article.php?id=1148
cool, huh…
August 5th, 2006 at 12:54 pmNo, my friend, there is a fundamental difference.
When a member of the US armed forces kills an unarmed civilian, we revile in the news and demand due process and punishment if he is, in fact, responsible.
When a Muslim suicide bomber walks into a cafe, a movie theatre or a market and kills 25 innocent civilians, he is martyred and honored as a hero by his community. In the dark days of Saddam’s Iraq, the family of suicide bombers would be paid a bounty for their mass murders.
It’s a perversion of logic to equivocate the two.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:55 pmChase,
Fundamenatists of all types operate from a base of fear. They become more extreme over time.
August 5th, 2006 at 12:56 pmRight now christian fundamentalists prefer to bomb abortion clinics (and anyone unlucky enough to be inside), shoot abortion providers through their kitchen windows, and terrorize their children into sexual disfunction. They just haven’t gotten to suicide bombing yet.
#46 – You exaggerate anti-abortion violence.
There have been 7 murders since 1977 against aborition providers.
There have been 41 bombings (nearly 2/3 were before 1990).
August 5th, 2006 at 1:06 pmwhoops – continuing
There has only been 1 bombing since 1999.
I’m not defending violence against abortion providers. They are criminals and should be punished to the full extent of the law.
But you greatly exaggerate the level of anti-abortion violence.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:08 pmIt’s a perversion of logic to equivocate the two.
that is exactly what you are doing. do we not celebrate the ’sacrafice of our soldiers’? do we not have walls and monuments celebrating their ’sacrafice’? america is all about death and the love and admiration of its soldiers that do our killing for us!!! do we not pay their families with survivor benefits based upon their rank, their length of service? do we not give them vanity license plates, funny hats to wear? parades? armbands and yellow ribbons?
americans celebrate the death and destruction of the enemy with equal glee and satisfaction as any other ideologicial group of haters…
you give yourself much too much credit, chase. your soldiers are as cruel, as wanton, as evil, as blood-stained as any suicide bomber, as any ideological killer.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:09 pmsay no what no – Where are you from?
We recognize the service of our servicemen and honor their sacrifice when they are killed in action. We do not honor those who kill innocent civilians intentionally, like suicide bombers.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:13 pmYou exaggerate anti-abortion violence.
There have been 7 murders since 1977 against aborition providers.
There have been 41 bombings (nearly 2/3 were before 1990).
Comment by Chase
It’s old violence, so it’s lesser violence? Please.
Those examples were just a few off the top of my head. Here’s another: Timothy McVeigh
One is too many, Chase. It’s too many for the christian fundamentalist, as well as for the islamic fundamentalist.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:16 pm#54 – I’m not diminishing the seriousness of any of attack, regardless of how old they are. The recent downturn in violence (accompanied by an increase in picketing) indicates those opposed to abortion are abandoning violence and employing non-violent methods of getting their voice out.
Timothy McVeigh was a singular aberration. There are attacks with death tolls in the degree of McVeigh’s nearly every day around the world conducted by Islamic fundamentalists.
One may be too many, but for every “one” violent Christian fundamentalist attack there are thousands of Islamic fundamentalist attacks. The varying level of magnitudes are striking.
Please admit it: Islamic fundamentalism is much more violent than Christian fundamentalism, for whatever excuse you want to cite.
Oh by the way, for context of anti-abortion violence, see this.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:26 pmchase,
your own defense department has admitted that at least 30,000 iraqi civilians have died for george bush’s extremist ideology. this number is quite conservative, but, lets assume it is only 30,000.
will the soldiers who killed them not be ‘honored’ by the americans who appreciate their service to america? you give way to much to the word ‘intentionally’. i would argue that indiscriminate bombing and destruction of an invaded country and its citizens is ‘intentional’… did the flights fly by themselves? did bush not have his murderers do his killing for him with intent?
August 5th, 2006 at 1:32 pmYou never hear anythin about the soldiers returning from Iraq that are wounded, mentally or physically. I guess discussing the fact that this war is doing horrible things to U.S. soldiers just isn’t “patriotic”, and so the MSM ignores it. Kind of like the coffin photo snafu.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog.php
August 5th, 2006 at 1:38 pmThe GOP is desperately trying to distance itself from faltering Pres. Bush. will it work? And will the impotent Dems finally get a plan for Iraq?
SSA Blog
http://www.sunstatetactivist.org/ssablog.php
#55 – Chase,
The recent downturn in violence (accompanied by an increase in picketing) indicates those opposed to abortion are abandoning violence and employing non-violent methods of getting their voice out.
I hope it lasts, but I won’t get too comfortable.
Timothy McVeigh was a singular aberration. There are attacks with death tolls in the degree of McVeigh’s nearly every day around the world conducted by Islamic fundamentalists.
McVeigh was a singularly successful aberration. Military training will do that to a whacko.
Islamic fundamentalism is much more violent than Christian fundamentalism, for whatever excuse you want to cite.
It’s certainly in the news these days, Chase, but I’d have to say christians have been more violent in the name of their religion.
If the Dems take power in November, we may see just how violent the christian fundamentalists can get when they feel threatened. They’re pretty comfy right now.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:42 pm#56, 58 -
I don’t. If you could find a source where someone said that, that would be great.
This is ridiculous. Suicide bombers in Israel have been attacking civilian targets for years. The Bus Bombings in London, the Madrid Rail Bombings and, of course, 9/11 were all Islamic fundamentalist suicide bombings.
The big difference, which you conveniently ignore, is that these homicides are done in the name of Islam. I would say virtually all murders in the US (or any Christian country) do not invoke the name of God.
What evidence would you accept that would prove Islamic fundamentalism is more violent that Christian fundamentalism, if not what I’ve already provided?
For more context – murder rates per capita.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:43 pm#62
You’re really worried about that? Come on.
I wouldn’t deny that. The history of Christianity is certainly bloody. But as I said in post 42 above, I’m more interested in the world today, and moving forward, than I am in discussing the Crusades. And in today’s world, moving forward, Islamic fundamentalists pose a much more urgent and dire threat to our security and safety than Christian fundamentalists.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:50 pmWhat evidence would you accept that would prove Islamic fundamentalism is more violent that Christian fundamentalism, if not what I’ve already provided?
chase, there is no evidence that exists to prove your point. the question is not properly posed. it is not a ‘more’ or ‘less’ proposition. both are fundamentally, deadly and violent to those that disagree with it, and attack its beliefs. there are murderers on both sides, it is just that you feel more ‘comfortable’ with the ones wearing the pretty green and blue uniforms than the ones wearing rags and sandals. i don’t.
an ethics based on extremist religious ideology is doomed to be violent and deadly…the question ought to be in what is the ideology based, not which is more effective in killing the ‘other’.
your killing machine is just as blood-thirsty and the supporters of your killing machine are just as sick and violent as you claim the other.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:51 pm#64 – Chase,
Not worried, Chase, I don’t tend to worry. Interested is a more correct word.
Chase, once again, we must agree to disagree. I’m outta here, because it’s a beautiful day in the neighborhood. Enjoy your Saturday.
August 5th, 2006 at 1:56 pmMythological goddess of agriculture = NO
August 5th, 2006 at 1:59 pmMythological god of the Bible = Yes
Two thousand years ago, it was reversed. Not much has changed. We still worship god(s).
Wonder what’s in the future – will we be worshipping a god from another planet?
No say, I agree with your posts……..Blessings, the world needs them, Tolerance, practice it now,…..Peace, Demand it ……
August 5th, 2006 at 2:08 pmsoon begin drafting an updated National Intelligence Estimate on Iraq…
August 5th, 2006 at 2:09 pmDon’t hold your breath, except you trolls of course. Please hold your breath until John the DeathSquadLeader releases this estimate.
#69
August 5th, 2006 at 2:30 pmLOL at telling the trolls to go ahead and hold their breaths.
Our Death Squad John caving to pressure – I don’t think so – this is simply a stalling tactic. I think he’s taking a page from Sen. Pat Roberts’ book – we’ve been waiting for his Phase II for nearly two years now — last November it was “two weeks” away.
Once again, we have the troll patrol on-board ready and willing to polish the turd given to them by the neocons. My advice to the trolls is to quit wasting your time trying to polish that turd–just pread it on two pieces of bread and eat that neocon shit sandwich. What Bush created in Iraq is a failure no matter how you “debate” the points of view.
August 5th, 2006 at 2:54 pm#26 Erroll; Those “evil forces” are centered in Washington D.C.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:00 pm#71- Once again, we have the troll patrol on-board ready and willing to polish the turd given to them by the neocons.
Rather than waxing oh-so-unpoetic, why don’t you argue the merits? Is it more a “can’t” than a “won’t” situation?
August 5th, 2006 at 3:08 pmGotta go now.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:19 pmI never know next time whether my posts will be accepted or not – I often have a hard time getting through TP’s filters with that http error notice.
And in today’s world, moving forward, Islamic fundamentalists pose a much more urgent and dire threat to our security and safety than Christian fundamentalists.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 1:50 pm
To say that Islam poses a threat to world security, stability is a huge stretch. One only has to look at the record for the last 20 year to see what countries have launched more wars of aggression, obliterating civilians who couldn’t get out of the way fast enough. Also, let’s look at what countries have sponsored more “regime changes” around the globe.
As for the suicide bombers, as someone else pointed out, they are an extreme measure borne out of extreme desperation. If you compare relative destructive power, you have suicide bombers vs. guided bombs, helicopters, tanks, and jet fighters. Which side is more destructive?
This is not a defence of religios fundamentalism, I think all fundamentalism is dangerous and that -given the right social, economic circumstances- fundamentalists will work hard at suppressing dissent and free thinking by whatever means available. I am merely trying to put things in perspective.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:23 pmIsn’t there a special GOP web-blog for “conservatives” to post the merits of Bush’s policies? Is seems a bit odd to me that trolls would spend so much time and energy on left-leaning blogs trying to explain how everything Bush touches really doesn’t turn to shit–even though all evidence points to the contrary. No troll posting has given me even one reason I should vote for ANY Republican in November. The GOP allowed the neocons to squander the bipartisan good will and willingness to support the President after 9-11. Welcome to Karl Rove’s divided America. What a shame.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:30 pmAnd in today’s world, moving forward, Islamic fundamentalists pose a much more urgent and dire threat to our security and safety than Christian fundamentalists.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 1:50 pm
This is paranoid nonsense, driven by irrational fear. The US and EU with the bulk of the worlds wealth and weapons have nothing to fear, existentially at any rate, from the islamic world. Intermittent terrorist attacks are dreadful, but they won’t destroy us and killing tens of thousands of people in response just makes it worse. We need to calm the situation. Out of Iraq and reign in the Israelis, and international law binding on the individual.
Even China with it’s spectacular growth rate won’t be drawing level until the middle of the century, the islamic world hasn’t a farts chance in a hurricane of posing a genuine threat.
C’mon Chase it’s all smoke and mirrors war rethoric to get you on side, surely you are smarter than that?
August 5th, 2006 at 3:53 pmIf you can’t think of a more destructive force, then you aren’t trying very hard.
Actually, you just don’t get it, so you jump to incorrect conclusions. Let me explain.
Did you feel better about the !,000+ people who died in New Orleans, because it was a hurricane that killed them, or the 10’s or 100’s of thousands who died in the sunami at Christmas, or the millions that die of disease or starvation?
The hurricane was tragic – but the hurricane wasn’t a conscious force who intentionally harmed and killed people. And it wasn’t the hurricane’s fault. It was, however, the fault of humans who have exaserbated Global Warming that the hurricane was that severe. So, in this regard Katrina was actually a byproduct of human greed and selfishness, and your example actually applies toward my original statement.
Starvation of humans is also human related. Firtsly, we put more people on the planet than it could sustain. Only plants are capable of turning sunlight into edible energy. Even the chickens and pigs you eat need to eat plants to grow and live. When you exceed the sustainable life of humans while destroying plants and their habitat, you’ve created a situation where there are more people produced than a sustainable crop. In addition, by rich countries consuming more food than they actually need to live, they’ve actually taken food away from someone else. It’s how it works with limited respurces. There’s a limited amount to go around.
So, you’ve actually provided two more examples to bolster my comment. Thanks.
All these large scale deaths are the result of poor policies by local / state governments that did not plan properly, or didn’t have the courage to demand their people take measures to take care of themselves.
Even if you are remotely correct (I believe in personal accountability and not ‘blame the government’ mentality), but for sake of argument, we’ll assume you actually managed to be right about something.
It’s still humans who are at fault, and again, you’ve given another example to support my claim.
that power, is a far more destructive force then regional skirmishes.
You’re trying to force my statement into a narrower slot than intended. I was speaking in general terms. All you’re doing is trying to make it a more narrow argument. None-the-less, all the examples you’ve given are still human examples, and still support my statement.
Moreover, using force to contain or neutralize evil forces, although causing some death, are far better than the appeasement type responses that lead to the deaths of 10’s or 100’s of millions of people in WWII.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — August 5, 2006 @ 11:20 am
Again, thanks for supporting my statement. These are all examples of offensive violence.
Global Warming is offensive violence on the environment which has now become directed against humans as a result of human greed.
Eating or hoarding someone else’s food so you’ll be sure to have enough is offensive violence.
Governments are almost always offensively violent.
Starting a war is offensively violent.
You haven’t negated a think I originally said. Just further proved that you don’t kow what you’re talking about.
August 5th, 2006 at 3:59 pmI refuted that statement
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — August 5, 2006 @ 11:44 am
No you didn’t, you supported what I said with more examples of offensive (self-serving) violence. Perhaps you don’t understand what an offense is?
From http://www.dictionary.com:
offensive
The act of attacking or assaulting.
Thanks Zoo for getting it :)
August 5th, 2006 at 4:03 pmJuly alos marked an all-time record for population in the United States.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 12:26 pm
Thanks for making teh liberal point that there are too many people on tehplanet and that it is BAD for the environment, while you neocons breed like rabbits because some guy living in the parched desert saw a burning bush that told him to be fruitful and multiply, he ascribed it to an improvable diety to get laid. Crazy things you righties believe…
August 5th, 2006 at 4:06 pmI apologize for the typos.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:19 pm#78 – It was, however, the fault of humans who have exaserbated Global Warming that the hurricane was that severe.
Presumably you’re talking about Katrina. Katrina was a Category 3. Perhaps much of the disaster was a result of choosing to live below sea level in a region very prone to hurricanes in the first place.
#80 – Thanks for making teh liberal point that there are too many people on tehplanet
What would you like to do? A little extermination, clean the place up?
My point, actually, was that more population means more electrical use. That’s all. Unlike you, I find it morally repugnant to support eugenics.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:21 pm#82 – The murder rate in the US is much too high.
Then again, per capita, the US is 24th in the world. In pure numbers, the US is 6th.
Unacceptable, but let’s put to rest the meme that the US is the world capital for murder.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:26 pmmore american war-criminals… are you still proud, chase?
August 5th, 2006 at 4:28 pm
#86 – Proud of these guys? Of course not. Thankfully our system of military justice is going to take care of them. These charges are indeed heinous.
Am I proud of the vast majority of our servicemen who aren’t committing war crimes? Absolutely.
August 5th, 2006 at 4:38 pmWhy do you like to protect a government that started islamic extremism, chase?
Protecting America for profits over people…………
August 5th, 2006 at 5:10 pmWhy do you like to protect a government that started islamic extremism, chase?
I guess you mean to say the US started Islamic extremism, huh? Is it even worth asking you to further explain that?
Protecting America for profits over people…………
I really want you to explain this. What profits am I protecting again?
August 5th, 2006 at 5:16 pmActually, no, my arguments having nothing to with protecting profits of any kind, oil included.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:23 pmPresumably you’re talking about Katrina. Katrina was a Category 3. Perhaps much of the disaster was a result of choosing to live below sea level in a region very prone to hurricanes in the first place.
Yes, blame the victims. I suppose it is also the fault of Iraqis to live in an area we were going to attack?
What would you like to do? A little extermination, clean the place up?
Always with the ridiculous extremes, Chase… “Population” education would have been a much better guess considering I am a liberal pacifist who condemns killing, and doesn’t eat animals.
My point, actually, was that more population means more electrical use. That’s all. Unlike you, I find it morally repugnant to support eugenics.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 4:21 pm
Yes, I understood you point. But you seem to be unaware of cause and effect. There’s no point in saying ‘you have cancer’ if you aren’t going to do anything about it.
Eugenics? Your inability to logically draw conclusions never ceases to amuse me. I am appalled by debeaking egg chickens and stuffing them into cages. Only a complete idiot would think I supported anything so, well, Fundamental Christian…
August 5th, 2006 at 5:23 pmlet’s put to rest the meme that the US is the world capital for murder.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 4:26 pm
What you are saying is accurate. The US doesn’t rank above all other countries when it comes to murder rates.
However, that is not what I -personally- have read or heard. If memory serves, the contention is that the US has the highest murder rate of all industrialised (1st world) nations. The US also has the highest incarceration rate -again, among 1st world countries. I’d have to look up the data.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:29 pmI guess you mean to say the US started Islamic extremism, huh? Is it even worth asking you to further explain that?
while you concern yourself with ‘who started it’ perhaps you might be honest enough to concede that your president’s policy is not exactly ‘quelling’ it–no, he is magnifying it to 100 times what it ever dreamt of being before he and his evil cabal invaded iraq…
the words of the the ayatollah khameni:
August 5th, 2006 at 5:34 pm
#93- Yes, blame the victims. I suppose it is also the fault of Iraqis to live in an area we were going to attack?
I’m not blaming the victims. There is a level of personal responsibility that must be accepted. Your Iraqi comment is almost as ridiculous as my eugenics comment.
“Population†education would have been a much better guess
What is “population” education exactly?
August 5th, 2006 at 5:34 pmChase,
Sorry to have missed most of this discussion – Good Will Hunting was on this afternoon, and I finally go to watch it, but it seems that you held up your end very well. Keep up the good work.
Yes, libs and progs fear those who desire the teaching of creationism alongside natural selection far more than those who flew airliners into the World Trade Center.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:36 pm#94 – We can break down muder statistics all day. My point is only that the US does not lead the world in murders or murders per capita.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:41 pmI’m not blaming the victims. There is a level of personal responsibility that must be accepted. Your Iraqi comment is almost as ridiculous as my eugenics comment.
You obviously know nothing about cultural antropology or the human social connection. You also don’t know much about the expense of moving. If you did, you wouldn’t blame the people of New Orleans for tehir circumstances of birth anymore than you would blame the Iraqis for theirs.
So you admit your eugenics comment was ridiculous? You should. It was.
What is “population†education exactly?
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 5:34 pm
Education on population… You know – causes, effects, facts and what we can do to slow down the population problems humanely. Read Ishmael by Daniel Quinn. It’ll help you out on what excessive population is doing to our planet.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:46 pmYes, libs and progs fear those who desire the teaching of creationism alongside natural selection far more than those who flew airliners into the World Trade Center.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — August 5, 2006 @ 5:36 pm
Yes, because anyone who sees the ‘intelligentdesign’ in the human appendix, male nipples, and other things that would get a human designer of any profession fired is to be FEARED.
We shouldn’t teach children fairytales in science class. We’ve already slipped to 7th most educated country in the world (we used to be 1st).
August 5th, 2006 at 5:50 pmJudd:
This is from last night’s “Claude Allen” thread, and our desire for a daily open thread:
Heck, we might even have a reasonable discussion on any given topic. Scary thought, huh Judd?
Comment by DrSinker — August 4, 2006 @ 9:50 pm
I think the commenters have done well today. We will probably never agree, but this thread has not fallen into open warfare, and no one has (I haven’t) hijacked the other threads.
Great job!
August 5th, 2006 at 5:52 pmMy point is only that the US does not lead the world in murders or murders per capita.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 5:41 pm
But it does lead the industrialized world, and that is actually worse because we should know better.
August 5th, 2006 at 5:52 pmI meant provoking islamic extremism. Heres a good question for you. Who put the sha into power and why?
August 5th, 2006 at 5:53 pmAddemdum to #101
unbelievable’s nipple obsession has, however, manifested itself. ;)
August 5th, 2006 at 5:55 pm#99 – You also don’t know much about the expense of moving. If you did, you wouldn’t blame the people of New Orleans for tehir circumstances of birth anymore than you would blame the Iraqis for theirs.
How about the expense of remaining there, in an area that everyone knew was in danger come the a hurricane? The circumstances of birth? I understand how this applies to children, does that apply to the middle-aged individuals as well? At what point does personal responsibility take over for a culture of victimization?
August 5th, 2006 at 5:57 pmhi, everyone!
god, is my dick sore! chase jason and i have been playing hide the salami all day :)
z, hope you can tune in tomorrow for the shooowwwww….
kisses,
ann
August 5th, 2006 at 6:00 pmerrr…chase, does that mean that us rich republican piles of dogpoop that live along florida’s coast and make millions on our insurance policies ought to move too? errr…i am all for ‘personal responsibility’ but, i really am for it most when the ‘person’ has much more mellinin in their skin, if you know what i mean….
i mean robert novak has collected three times on his ocean-side heap over the years and hasn’t moved…
August 5th, 2006 at 6:03 pm#100, unbelieveable,
Why do you fear the exchange of ideas? I went to Catholic parochial schools, and had no problem reconciling creationism and natural selection in my own mind. My schools also taught me about Protestantism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc., but I didn’t walk away with anything other than my own beliefs.
As Ann Coulter says, today’s liberals are illiberal, in that they fear the open exchange of ideas in school. If a majority of the population desires their children learn creationism alongside natural selection, then why feel so threatened?
August 5th, 2006 at 6:04 pmann, did you actually say this?
As Ann Coulter says, today’s liberals are illiberal, in that they fear the open exchange of ideas in school. If a majority of the population desires their children learn creationism alongside natural selection, then why feel so threatened?
Sounds like you.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:05 pmi mean robert novak has collected three times on his ocean-side heap over the years and hasn’t moved…
Comment by fat rich guy in florida
Apparently personal responsibility is most important for those least able to afford it.
hi j
August 5th, 2006 at 6:07 pmAt what point does personal responsibility take over for a culture of victimization?
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 5:57 pm
The people who stayed behind in New Orleans were either too poor, to old, or too young to flee. You have to understand that many poor live day to day and do not have any savings. No Chase, they are not stupid. They simply spend all their money on living expenses (food, clothes, rent, etc.) The poor are not necessarily lazy either: Many have two jobs and still have a hard time making ends meet.
It is easy to evacuate a city if you have the means: Car, credit cards, and bank accounts. The poor in New Orleans (and many other cities in the US) lacked all that, and couldn’t pay a ticket anywhere. Assuming they maanged to flee, there was still the matter of housing arrangements; how to pay for, say, a hotel room.
I am so puzzled why helping the poor seems so repugnant to our conservative visitors. They claim to be religious, but I don’t recall the Bible saying “Feed the hungry -unless they cannot pay the bill.”
August 5th, 2006 at 6:08 pmI am glad we are talking about New Orleans. There hasn’t been a hurricane hitting the US in a year, but the “good people” of New Orleans are killing each other at record rates, even with the National Guard stepping in to back up state troopers and NOPD.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:11 pm#112 – Gregor,
I would add that Katrina happened at the end of August. Many people would not get paid until the last day of the month, so they had absolutely no means for getting out of town. They had to dig in and hope for the best, and they lost big time.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:14 pm#108, fat,
I have weathered 2 direct hits on my condo, but you don’t see me blaming FEMA. My condo was built above sea level per all safety codes, and then I added double paned hurricane windows as well as aluminum storm shutters. I LEARNED to PREPARE for worst case scenarios from private schools.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:14 pm#114 – Remember, the world is not black and white, literally or figuratively.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:16 pm#108 – The federal gov’t shouldn’t be in the business of insurance. I couldn’t find any mentions of Novak recovering three times. Have a source for that?
#111 – Responsibility applies to everyone.
#112 – There was a failure at all levels of government when it came to helping the poor evacuate.
I again reject the idea that the poor cannot have bank accounts. That ludicrous.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:18 pmI LEARNED to PREPARE for worst case scenarios from private schools.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Wow. I learned that in public schools, go figure. What is your point?
I endured three hurricanes the summer before I left Louisiana. Good thing you had the means to weatherize your condo, and I had the means to move away, huh Jason?
August 5th, 2006 at 6:21 pmI again reject the idea that the poor cannot have bank accounts. That ludicrous.
Comment by Chase
Why is that so hard for you to imagine, Chase?
Once again, I must play the “life experience” card.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:25 pm#120, zooey,
Yes, neither of us looked to the government to take care of us, and neither of us blamed government, because of the weather.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:26 pm—i am white.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:30 pm—i am rich.
—i am catholic.
—i am rich.
—poor people are bad planners.
—poor people are poor because they spend their money on kool cigarettes and marijuana and colt 45.
—white people are better.
—i went to an all-white private school.
—my daddy had more money than your daddy.
—michelle malkin makes me feel like i want to go black and never come back.
—the world is a mess thanks to bill clinton.
—george bush is jesus and soon the end will come.
—fossils lie
—adam and eve were my great-grandparents.
—pita bread is evil.
—the only good mexican is a gardner or a waiter.
—did i say i was white?
#123, point is,
Thanks for that diatribe. This is a good example of liberals being unable to debate, so instead they state or imply some type of bigotry – racism, sexism, homophobia, etc. ….
In order to drive people to “your side” of an arguement, you try to make your competition look as repugnant as possible, instead of trying to “win” people to your side.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:34 pm#121 – I do my banking with an institution that doesn’t have any monthly fees or minimum balances. I know of at least 2 others in San Antonio that do the same.
I can only imagine similar offerings are available around the nation.
Life experience isn’t required to call bullshit.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:35 pmResponsibility applies to everyone.
Comment by Chase
That’s something we can agree on, Chase. Your parents must have raised you well.
We learn what we live.
Now, for just a moment, imagine that you were not raised in a responsible home. It wouldn’t be your fault, that’s just where you landed, right? You would still be required to be responsible in this world, but how would you learn responsibility? The hard way. You might have to learn life’s hard lessons over and over again, because you don’t have a background of responsibility to fall back on. Life would be much more difficult for you, but you would probably pull yourself up by your bootstraps and make a good life for yourself.
Now imagine that you don’t have the character required to achieve these things. I see these people everyday in my professional life. It’s not up to me to judge them.
I believe it’s up the rest of us to help those who need it — just because they need help — that’s all.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:36 pmYes, neither of us looked to the government to take care of us, and neither of us blamed government, because of the weather.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
You missed my point completely.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:37 pmLife experience isn’t required to call bullshit.
Comment by Chase
But it sure helps.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:38 pm#126 – That’s a fool’s game you’re playing.
You offer the “it’s not my fault, it’s my _______’s fault” as an excuse for not taking responsibility for one’s actions.
As you mention, those that don’t accept the responsibility lack the character to do so.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:41 pm#128 – Well my life experience, as limited as it is, tells me that there is no excuse for not having a bank account other than you don’t want one.
That’s my point.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:42 pm#126, zooey,
I agree with the “calling” to help others, so now it is a question of the vehicle by which you help people. Our government has demonstrated that they created cycles of poverty with their food stamps, etc., so that doesn’t work. Churches and charities have demonstrated the best means of helping people, by providing necessities, and not a living, while giving moral support.
To me, it comes down to the right approach to education, and not just K thru 12. The government needs to either directly provide job training, or better still, give businesses big tax breaks to both train and provide salaries to those in training.
Our current school system hasn’t adapted to the new economy, in which textiles and manufacturing has moved overseas, thereby gutting the structure that supported white collar engineering, business and services graduates. Broader training in independent business and investment, applied to a hard value added skill is what is required today.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:44 pm#130, point,
I might add that I am a handsome beast at that, and to know me, is to love me.
You accusations of bigotry are just wrong. If I were all those things, I wouldn’t be sitting here giving you a path to help yourselves. I would remain silent, or reinforce the non-viable behaviour that the “good people” of New Orleans demonstrate.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:47 pmjason,
i do not need your ‘help’ and your path is lined with the dead souls of the oppressed, the poor, the innocent, and the blood of your path-masters. keep it to yourself and your comrades in arms.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:54 pm#134, no thanks,
Those dead souls line the “path”, because they strayed off the path, thanks for that metaphor.
August 5th, 2006 at 6:58 pmI don’t know about you jr, but I’m done beating this dead horse. I think our brains are just wired differently, and there’s not one more thing I can do with this topic.
Later…
August 5th, 2006 at 7:04 pmthe dead along your path were put their by your path-maker and his sick minions…the demented, delusional, religious extremists–the bastardizers of christ and moses. the hateful, evil, stinking bastards that create the path you are on are the devil incarnate.
people do not stray from your path, jason, they RUN from it! running for their lives before you destroy them with your false politics, your false religion, and your lack of soul.
+++++++++++
yes, z, the smell from these deathmachines/dead-horses is getting to me to…see you later, after i go out and breathe some fresh air!
August 5th, 2006 at 7:09 pmMy condo was built above sea level per all safety codes, and then I added double paned hurricane windows as well as aluminum storm shutters. I LEARNED to PREPARE for worst case scenarios from private schools.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — August 5, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
Hey Jason, just for you to know: there is people who can afford a condo, just newspaper and junk. Welcome to the real world.
August 5th, 2006 at 7:24 pmMy condo was built above sea level per all safety codes, and then I added double paned hurricane windows as well as aluminum storm shutters. I LEARNED to PREPARE for worst case scenarios from private schools.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — August 5, 2006 @ 6:14 pm
Hey Jason, just for you to know: there are people who can afford a condo, just newspaper and junk. Welcome to the real world.
August 5th, 2006 at 7:24 pm#128 – Well my life experience, as limited as it is, tells me that there is no excuse for not having a bank account other than you don’t want one.
That’s my point.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 6:42 pm
Ha ha ha ha! Thats the sweetest thing I ve ever read. Chase: there are places in this world, where banks are non existent, money is not invented, and people survive out of hunting animals. OK, extreme example, but a fact. About US, there are millions of poor people in your country who are not allowed to open bank accounts. The system has forgotten about them, just as you and Jason have done it all this thread with discriminatory posts. I hope you have a good life, otherwise the world as it is, will reveal itself to you and it wont be nice.
August 5th, 2006 at 7:32 pmThere is a good excuse for not having a bank account in the US today. To open a bak account today you need a Social Security card, a state photo ID like a driver’s license, and proof of your address – like an electric bill in your name or you can’t open an account. And for example, a lot of people in New Oreleans are missing these documents. Another reason not to have a bank account, so the government can’t spy on you.
August 5th, 2006 at 7:49 pm#142 – Yeah, I was definitely talking about in the US.
About US, there are millions of poor people in your country who are not allowed to open bank accounts.
What exactly are you talking about here?
August 5th, 2006 at 7:52 pm#143 – To open a bak account today you need a Social Security card, a state photo ID like a driver’s license, and proof of your address…
While those displaced by Katrina might have been separated from their documents immediately after the hurricane, now, almost a year later, there’s been more than enough time to have your SS card replaced, get a new ID or driver’s license. I have never had to prove my address beyond those two documents when opening up an account.
Anyway, we were talking about people who didn’t have accounts before the hurricane.
Another reason not to have a bank account, so the government can’t spy on you.
If that’s your prerogative, that’s fine. But in averting the government’s every prying eyes, you forfeit the conveniences of maintaining a checking account. This would definitely be a personal decision that has nothing to do with “being poor”, as the argument here has been.
August 5th, 2006 at 8:07 pmChase, did you know that MANY poor BLACK southerners were born at home because they turned away from white hospitals and they were denied actual birth certificates because they were not born in a hospital? Without a birth certificate you can’t get a scocial security card, so you can’t open a bank account. If you don’t think this is a significant problem, you might notice the recent spate of articles about poor black elderly southerners not qualified for medicar because of the same argument.
August 5th, 2006 at 8:20 pmAs support of my point in #146 see example
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060202/NEWS07/602020550/1009/NEWS07
August 5th, 2006 at 8:32 pmAh, ignorance is bliss, right, Chase and Hendler. You guys would argue with a telephone pole if it would stand still long enough, and could take the stench of your overheated breath.
August 5th, 2006 at 8:32 pmunbelievable’s nipple obsession has, however, manifested itself. ;)
Comment by Zooey — August 5, 2006 @ 5:55 pm
It’s really an appendix obesssion I distract from with the nipple thing :)
August 5th, 2006 at 8:39 pmHow about the expense of remaining there, in an area that everyone knew was in danger come the a hurricane?
Yes, let’s address the real estate market in New Orleans. It isn’t toyour advantage. Who would buy their homes so they could sell and leave? And then what about those people?
I thought you were against blaming teh victims. Or does that only apply to the imaginary rich white American victims?
The circumstances of birth? I understand how this applies to children, does that apply to the middle-aged individuals as well?
Of course. Go read some books on cultural anthropology.
At what point does personal responsibility take over for a culture of victimization?
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 5:57 pm
When your party stops victimizing the oppressed. That’s when.
August 5th, 2006 at 8:42 pmIf anyone had even a hint of doubts about whether or not blacks in the south are the victims of racism in voting or otherwise, take a look at the vehement opposition by Southern politicians to the Voting Rights Act. If they’re not blocking the black vote, then why care if the government wants to be sure of that? It’s sick and wrong.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog.php
The new GOP election strategy: “Who’s Geoerge W Bush?” The GOPers distance themselves with W, while the Dems seem to draw closer to him in their ideology.
http://www.sunstateactivist.org/ssablog.php
Visit SSA’s forum on the Middle East Crisis
August 5th, 2006 at 8:43 pmhttp://www.sunstateactivist.org/forum
Why do you fear the exchange of ideas?
I don’t. In fact, it’s funny that you would say such a thing about someone who spends so much time doing exactly that. You and Chase must be missing teh gene that activates lthe logic centers of your brain…
I went to Catholic parochial schools, and had no problem reconciling creationism and natural selection in my own mind.
Good for you Jason. You stand as an eternal beacon for why that experiment isn’t popular any more…
That’s not the issue. The issue is that Creationsism has no facts to back it up, and in Science, you gotta have facts.
My schools also taught me about Protestantism, Hinduism, Taoism, Shintoism, etc., but I didn’t walk away with anything other than my own beliefs.
Taught you that they were all going to Hell? (joke, relax). Who taught you about those philosophies amd religions, the nuns or those who actually practiced those ideologies?
As Ann Coulter says, today’s liberals are illiberal, in that they fear the open exchange of ideas in school.
Ann Coulter is a hate-mongering fool who doesn’t know what she is talking about. Her voice is like nails on a chalk board. The fact that you quote her as a reputable source makes you look like a bigger idiot.
If a majority of the population desires their children learn creationism alongside natural selection, then why feel so threatened?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — August 5, 2006 @ 6:04 pm
A majority doesn’t not endiorse such a thing. And even if it did, then it doesn’t make it any more right than if the majority of Americans wanted to teach witchcraft alongside it as well. Creationism is not a Science. It does not belieng in the classroom.
You do know that it is your option to send your spawn to religious school where they will be taught fairytales alongside Science and watch our country drop further behind the rest of the world in education.
Plus, our Constitution specifically talks about separation of church and state. Do you need me to explain how that means no Creationism (religion) in public schools?
How you do not get the dangers in teaching ID as a Science makes me hope you have no children.
August 5th, 2006 at 8:53 pmbut the “good people†of New Orleans are killing each other at record rates, even with the National Guard stepping in to back up state troopers and NOPD.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — August 5, 2006 @ 6:11 pm
You do know that the city officials simply released those in prison back into the general population just before the storm hit. You do know that don’t you?
August 5th, 2006 at 8:55 pm[...] ThinkFast: August 5, 2006Think Progress, DC - 12 hours ago… from Iraq experiencing some symptoms of post-traumatic stress disorder, such as nightmares, problems sleeping, anger, anxiety, detachment from the … [...]
August 5th, 2006 at 8:56 pm#146 – That’s a serious problem. I wonder how those individuals have made it through life, working, living, just getting around without any form of ID. Sounds a little fishy to me.
#150 – “Who would buy their homes so they could sell and leave?”
Let’s be honest: most of those homes were not owned by the people living in them.
#151 – take a look at the vehement opposition by Southern politicians to the Voting Rights Act.
Take at look at your inability to understand the issue. Opposition to the VRA deals only with Section 5. Section 5 imposes “preclearance” measure on certain states, counties and municipalities that it does not place on others. Those who you say were “opposed” to the VRA were merely opposed to extending the Act without a reconsidering the necessity of preclearance. That is all.
#153 – You do know that the city officials simply released those in prison back into the general population just before the storm hit.
The crime is a result of gang and drug activity. That’s it. You seem to say that New Orleans was nice, safe and peaceful until, dammit, those prisoners were let loose before the Katrina made landfall.
New Orleans has always been crime-ridden. That’s just the fact of it.
August 5th, 2006 at 9:21 pmChase see the link, yes these people “made it thru life” without “official papers” and for “proof” see the Detroit Press article
http://www.freep.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060202/NEWS07/602020550/1009/NEWS07
and it was not their fault, the “fishy” part of your statement is correct. It was “white” rascists that turned them away from “white” hospitals, the local courthouse, etc that prevented their ability to be registered appropriately. You will note the story says it could affect MILLIONS of poor southern African Americans. And that is another reason to support the Voting Rights Act – note in the timeframe of the lifetime of these African Americans, they were denied birth certificates, social security cards, and voting rights. So yes, if Voting Rights have been so recently denied (remeber the 1960s and Martin Luther King) then yes we need the Voting Rights Act extended.
August 5th, 2006 at 9:39 pmIt’s really an appendix obesssion I distract from with the nipple thing :)
Comment by unbelievable
Ah, of course.
August 5th, 2006 at 9:53 pm#156 – No one is saying the Voting Rights Act should not be extended. I think it would have been appropriate to fully evaluate the necessity of extending Section 5 (possibly some measures are still needed, likely some are not).
The “fishy” part is how these individuals worked, paid taxes, basically got around, without a Social Security number. Every job I’ve ever had required that I present my Social Security card before they would employ me. I don’t think my experience is unique.
In any event, the Social Security number/card application states that acceptable birth certificate substitutes are:
It goes on to state that if none of those documents are available, to contact them for further advice.
Again, I’m sure this situation explains a few cases where individuals do not have bank accounts. I hardly think accounts for most, or even many, of those cases.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:04 pmSo Chase since it’s so easy the the Detroit Free Press article above is obviously written by a delusional. See the world is not a neat little package where everyone can be responsible and just follow the rules, read the article above, millions of African Americans afre affected, no you can’t have a bank account without a social security caed , so by logical progresion up to millions of African Americans will be denied a bank account.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:09 pmAnd I defy you to try to legitimately get ANY official US document based on a “hospital” (read unofficial) birth certificate, or a notation in a church ledger today. Doesn’t make sense to get a secure document unsing “unsecure” documents as proof. Hospital birth certificates are mass produced unsecure pieces of paper given to parents at the birth as a memento and bear no legal weight. A church record is beautiful but again can be changed at whim. You can’t get a passport with out birth certificate from the State of your birth and a state photo ID. So you’re back to no you can’t get a bank account.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:15 pmAccording to the Sacramento Bee this morning, CA is attempting to raise the minimum wage to just under $10/hr.
Good news for rich kids who flip burgers part time. More money for beer and to pimp their ride.
August 5th, 2006 at 10:33 pm#160 – I read the article. I’m sure the problem is widespread.
As for getting your Social Security card with documents other than a birth certificate – the list of other documents I provided above was directly copied from the Social Security number/card application. It can be done.
I want to know how these people have been working all their lives. How have they been paying taxes without a Social Security card? Any thoughts?
August 5th, 2006 at 10:35 pmCheck it out, Daryn Kagan is leaving CNN to do this:
http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?f=/n/a/2006/08/03/entertainment/e143031D99.DTL
Ms Kagan: “I think there is a void in the straight news business now, (which is) lacking a certain spirituality,” Kagan told The Associated Press on Thursday. “I think most people live in a space where they are looking for meaning in life and good in the world and that is not necessarily reflected in straight news coverage right now.”
I think she got into Rush’s stash…
August 5th, 2006 at 10:39 pmFor some reason Chase is obsessed about the bank account thing. There was an entire thread a couple of weeks ago about this same thing and he was the one chomping at the bitt about it….Enough already, he doesn’t get the why’s or where for’s about the issue and will just argue all night long and act stupid….
Here’s an issue for you to ponder Chase. Truthout posted a link that said 40,000 service men have gone awol since 2000…….Good for them, that’s 40,000 bull shit bush won’t get killed in his madness wars……..Work for Peace and impeachment.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:29 pm#164 – Yeah, I’ll drop it.
I just think it’s utter bullshit when someone says “the poor can’t get bank accounts”.
August 5th, 2006 at 11:48 pm#162-Chase- Come on now! How do you get a passport without a Notarized copy of your birth certificate? And if hospitals were not admitting African Americans, how can they have gotten a hospital issued birth certificate? How can someone produce a document that is supposed to prove who they are, when the document never existed in the first place? If you did not have a birth certificate on record anywhere, how would you prove who you are? And in America today, a ‘religious record’ would never be enough to get a Social Security card. I know you are smarter than that. You just want to be contrary.
August 6th, 2006 at 12:09 amThere was a failure at all levels of government when it came to helping the poor evacuate.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 6:18 pm
I didn’t claim otherwise. We are in agreement on this point.
I again reject the idea that the poor cannot have bank accounts. That ludicrous.
This is an argument from incredulity (”I cannot fathom it, hence it cannot be true”). This is a logical fallacy.
Do you remember this thread? In an analysis of 13 American cities, the Brookings Institution found “the nation’s working poor households pay much more than moderate- and high-income households for life’s essentials.â€
–ThinkFast: July 18, 2006
In it you defended ad nauseam the higher prices the poor have to pay. That’s my first point: Proportionately, the poor pay more than the middle class for the same services. Whatever the reason, we can agree that the poor pay more -you acknowledged that much by defending usury rates. That already leaves the poor with a lot less money for discretionary spending.
My second point, and what you are arguing against: The poor have less access to financial services. In the thread about the Brookings Institution’s study you argued -based solely on your personal opinion- that the poor choose not to have bank accounts, in direct contradiction with the findings of the study that clearly explained how mainstream financial institutions have less presence in low-income neighborhoods.
My third point is that poverty is a generational phenomena. There are people who are second, third generation poor, and not due to lazyness or lack of mental acumen. I provided links to you in another thread to studies that show social mobility does not exist for close to 70% of the population in the US.
It is very interesting to see you argue and deny (armed with nothing more than your personal “gut” feeling) a reality that millions of Americans experience every day.
August 6th, 2006 at 12:14 amIs the Syria that BushCo pressured to withdraw from Lebanon last year, the SAME Syria that they now claim are arming and supporting Hezbollah, in Lebanon? Wow, guess they ‘kissed and made up’, huh? But why were they occupying Lebanon in the first place?
August 6th, 2006 at 12:20 amHow have they been paying taxes without a Social Security card? Any thoughts?
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 10:35 pm
How? In the same way illegal immigrants can pay taxes without a legal, actual SSN: They make up one.
Starting in the late 1980’s, the Social Security Administration received a flood of W-2 earnings reports with incorrect – sometimes simply fictitious – Social Security numbers. It stashed them in what it calls the “earnings suspense file” in the hope that someday it would figure out whom they belonged to.
Illegal Immigrants Are Bolstering Social Security With Billions
Or by getting an Individual Tax Identification Number. Again, just like illegal aliens do:
When the couple, along with Esmeralda, crossed the Mexican border five years ago, they had little money, no jobs, and lacked basic documents such as Social Security numbers. [...]
August 6th, 2006 at 12:27 amThen [the Valenzuelas] applied to the Internal Revenue Service for individual tax identification numbers (ITINS), allowing them to pay taxes like any U.S. citizen — and thereby to eventually get a home mortgage.
BusinessWeek: Embracing Illegals
Damn, Zoo. We have Chase here! :)
August 6th, 2006 at 12:33 amI was hoping Chase had gone night night.
August 6th, 2006 at 12:34 amCome on. What do you do for fun? Did you read my last post in the Mason´s thread?
August 6th, 2006 at 12:35 amYay, Juan! I feel less guilty hijacking this thread. ;)
Let’s see…for fun….I love photography. It’s a love I share with Zoo Jr. He loves to take photos extremely up-close, and never photographs people, and I love to take pictures of the land and wildlife and people — especially people I don’t know.
What do you do for fun?
August 6th, 2006 at 12:40 am*static*
\overhead p.a. is heard at think progress\
CLEAN UP ON AISLE ONE. CLEAN UP ON AISLE ONE. A TROLL HAS BEEN SMUSHED AND IT LEFT A MARK….
August 6th, 2006 at 12:47 amI love photography
Comment by Zooey — August 6, 2006 @ 12:40 am
Thats really good! You know, I like photography too, but I dont know too much about the techniques or new cameras, zooms and diaphragmas (?). You must have a great set of choices to take pictures in The Palouse. I like photographing people…I dont know why. I guess I am touched if, for example, I come across the picture of man working in a mine, all sweaty, ashy, dirty but a great dignity face on, looking at the camera defiantly, like saying, I work downthere, would you do the same?
Ok, I was caught up in the moment. I like soccer, Zoo. I know you are not very in touch with this sport, but for us, argentinians, it is like your baseball (although soccer was brought to South America by english rich men, but the poor employees of mines, railroads, factories, played it and made it popular). I like very much independent films. I remember you say you watch Giamatti´s movies after watching American Splendor. I saw American Splendor a week before I told you about your Harvey Pekar humor. I loved Sideways, one of the best films I ve ever seen. I like a lot of Korean and Japanese movies…and European too.
August 6th, 2006 at 12:49 amI thought you had said goodnight, jr. He was smushed, wasn’t he?
August 6th, 2006 at 12:50 amI like to look at photographs.
August 6th, 2006 at 12:53 amI like to look at photographs.
Comment by Cyra Brown — August 6, 2006 @ 12:53 am
I prefer photographs than videos, for that matter. They are more personal…I dont know.
August 6th, 2006 at 12:55 amJuan,
My tattooed friend, Sandy, says that I take pictures to avoid being part of the action. She didn’t complain when I photographed her pornographic tattoos. I told her it was either that, or we’d have to skin her when she’s dead. That shut her up. We have a unique relationship. :)
I don’t care for sports on television. If I’m going to watch sports, I’m going to the game. The University of Idaho has a domed stadium here in town, and I go to (American) football games a couple times a year. They’re really bad, and I never know who has the ball, but I’m watching the people. People watching is more interesting to me than the game.
American Splendor is one of my all-time favorite movies. It was kind of a depressing movie, but he has such an interesting view of life, it just drew me in.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:02 amI prefer photographs than videos, for that matter. They are more personal…I dont know.
Comment by Juan C
Photos make you think about the possibilities; video doesn’t make you think at all.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:03 amI have a book of pictures only, no words at all. It’s called “Bad Hair”. It’s page after page of professionally done portraits of hairstyles, from the 70’s and 80’s. And except for a couple that are more like ‘works of art’ and I mean 1 or 2, they are AWFUL! But SO damn FUNNY! I do like to take pictures of people right when they first wake up. “Morning Hair” is just amazing in it’s variety. Love it!
August 6th, 2006 at 1:07 amZooey, Cyra, Juan C, non no no,
Not to be a “party pooper” but it is better not to disclose too much personal information in a blog. You never know who else is reading it, and how they might use it against you.
I am sure you can ask the moderator of the thread to disclose your email address to one another, if you don’t like the idea of pasting it in the thread.
My two cents…
August 6th, 2006 at 1:11 amCyra,
“Morning Hair” It sounds like a great wedding gift idea. :-D
August 6th, 2006 at 1:11 amPeople watching is more interesting to me than the game.
Comment by Zooey — August 6, 2006 @ 1:02 am
I agree. (sometimes, though)! Once I have watched the game, and put the video to watch it again (yeah, I can be that lame) I like to watch how, whenever a goal is coming, the people stand up, like some sort of dark, multicolor wave at the visual background. My girlfriend doesnt understand whats the fuzz about soccer, as almost any women here in Mexico. But, in Argentina, women are as passionate as men. Soccer was built by poor and simple people. It was the activity that gave them some freedom, some victory in their lives. And Argentina was full of poor immigrants (mostly italians and spaniards) It is one of the easiest sports to practice, you just need the ball. Enough of soccer…I am boring you.
American Splendor was a laugh. When Harvey showed the girl (later his wife) his messy house just not to make any unnecesary expectation, I was LMAO. I think he depicts the middle-class depressed but sharp America.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:13 amThanks, Gregor. You’re so sweet! I have actually posted my email address on one of these threads, and only the person it was meant for contacted me. Amazing, huh? I admit it was stupid to do it, and I wouldn’t do it again.
BTW, ya’ll weirdos, don’t go looking for it, because that email address is now dead.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:15 amurgghghhh!
this band stuff is a real pain in the derriere…
anyway, i am out of here for the night…it takes me awhile to get on. have a good night, all.
- -
August 6th, 2006 at 1:15 am#183- Gregor, You could never be a ‘Poop’, “Party” style, or any other variety! Thanks for caring. It’s nice of you. :)
August 6th, 2006 at 1:16 amGoodnight, banned — again. :)
August 6th, 2006 at 1:17 amMy two cents…
Comment by Gregor Samsa — August 6, 2006 @ 1:11 am
Gregor, I know what you mean. I appreciate your concern. But, we are not giving that much information (I guess) and, also, I made a choice of living without fear. Whatever that has to happen will happen. I try to be buddhist. :)
August 6th, 2006 at 1:19 amAmerican Splendor was a laugh. When Harvey showed the girl (later his wife) his messy house just not to make any unnecesary expectation, I was LMAO. I think he depicts the middle-class depressed but sharp America.
Comment by Juan C
At first I thought Harvey was a complete drag, and didn’t want to finish watching the movie, but my son said, “just watch, mom!” so I did. I realized he had such passion for things, but didn’t know how to express it, or couldn’t allow himself to express it. He just lives his life the way he wants to, and doesn’t apologize. I like that.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:23 amHave to go, people. Aikido class tomorrow morning.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:25 amZoo…a delight as always, Cyra, Gregor and to everybody who helps me in changing my opinion about americans I thank you very much. Best Regards. Peace and power to the people.
Goodnight, Juan,
It’s been fun!
August 6th, 2006 at 1:27 amPeace and power to the people.
Comment by Juan C — August 6, 2006 @ 1:25 am
mmm, that sounded really propagandistic…and utopic.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:28 ammmm, that sounded really propagandistic…and utopic.
Comment by Juan C
Always a plus.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:31 amBTW, right now I am listening to Oh, Brother, where are thou? soundtrack…I love the music.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:31 amI am a man of constant sorrow
That cant be that bad, Zoo! :)
Chau.
Oops. Wrong name.
August 6th, 2006 at 1:32 amI am a man of constant sorrow
That cant be that bad, Zoo! :)
Chau.
Comment by Juan C
Ok, I have to admit it, I loved that movie and the music. George Clooney helps…
August 6th, 2006 at 1:36 amI laughed myself silly watching that movie in the theater, the people around me thought I was insane. It’s just that I knew people like that when I lived in the south.
Interesting comments on this TP thread yesterday > sorry that I was too busy on Saturday to join the discussion!
August 6th, 2006 at 2:54 am#198- “My hair!” “I’m not a ‘Fop’ man, I’m a ‘Dapper Dan’ man!” “Those Si-reens done loved him up, and turned him into a ‘Ha-, ha-, Horny Toad!” That scream that he lets go of is so funny! Great movie, love the soundtrack too. I also have the DVD.
August 6th, 2006 at 3:06 amWe thought you was a toad…
August 6th, 2006 at 3:08 amLet’s be honest: most of those homes were not owned by the people living in them.
That’s not true. You should do some research before you post inaccurate statements. Many of them did own their own homes.
The crime is a result of gang and drug activity. That’s it. You seem to say that New Orleans was nice, safe and peaceful until, dammit, those prisoners were let loose before the Katrina made landfall.
Your inability to draw logical conclusions from facts is wildly absurd… That is assinine. I didn’t say any such thing. I simply reminded you that prisoners being released into the general population have made their situation much worse.
New Orleans has always been crime-ridden. That’s just the fact of it.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 9:21 pm
Not like this Chase, and that’s a fact too.
August 6th, 2006 at 7:42 amI just think it’s utter bullshit when someone says “the poor can’t get bank accountsâ€.
Comment by Chase — August 5, 2006 @ 11:48 pm
Do you not remember the application you had to fill-out for the bank to grant you that free bank account? Applications get rejected all the time. (Think bank = money).
The reason those accounts are free is because the bank plans on making money off your money that sits in the account (they are in the money business you know). If you have no money, well, thanks for stopping by…
August 6th, 2006 at 7:45 amGood Morning all,………Zooey, I am amazed how many simalaraties there are in many of the posters…I have been an amature photographer for years and worked in profesional labs off and on for 30 years. Always fell back on it between other jobs…I did repair, restoration and art work for some of the best labs on the west coast. Started out mixing chemichels, doing spotting, printing and ended up doing all the art work…..Did remove husbands that wives wanted a bush in his place, with air brush ,and tinted with oils black and whites…The pay was alway’s low but doing all the art work and fixing profesional photographers mistakes was fun.. My hardest job was removing a powerline in the alaska pipeline photo for the photographer. I had to air brush 500 8×10’s and only had 2 weeks to get them done for his mail out deadline. That was years ago…..Have worked on thousands of weddings, the art of cakes and the dresses were amazing……I prefer candid shots of animels and close up’s of flowers and scenery for my own shooting…….I have a Minalta with 2 lenses and just yesterday Michaels family gave me his digital camera…..My dear friend was a great photographer and I have 2 disks he made up for me of his work. ..Think his sister is going to get some of his work published some time soon……
Sorry to bore you all…..I have a wonderful shot of one of my stud colts with all four feet off the ground in a gallop. Have entered lot’s of my own photos along with jam’s and pies in fairs around Idaho, Washington and Montana and won lot’s of ribbons even got a 2nd place from the news paper years ago of a shot I took from the top of Pack Saddle mountain in Idaho….Have we hijacked the thread yet.?……
A beautiful morning here, hope all here are having a good day…..Blessings to you all, Peace to our world…….
August 6th, 2006 at 9:06 am#205- Sharon, I think that it sounds really neat! Not boring at all! Weddings are SO stressful! All of the focus on the event, for months beforehand, not enough on what comes after the ‘Big Day’, which passes in a blur anyhow. That’s why the pictures are so important, it may be the only way the ‘newlyweds’ can get an idea of what happened that day. I think it’s great that your work has been honored. Maybe I will see some of it while I “Do The Puyallup”? Please let me know, o.k.?
August 6th, 2006 at 9:51 amGood Morning Cyra, I’m not going to enter anything this year. Been a rough year and have been kind of disconnected. I use to enter stuff in the Evergreen State fair and even took my vacations from the photo lab during the fair time and worked for the fair….Great fun..Don’ t do that any more either….Do plan to go to the Evergreen fair and check out all the draft horses as usual and may get back into going to the diffrent events and photographing some of the jumper shows….. Only went to the Puyallop (sp) once…I do love fairs…..A once a year favorite now……Off to do the tree hugging…Blessings all
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