Bush Dismisses Generals’ Concerns: ‘I Hear People Say, Well, Civil War This, Civil War That’
Bush Dismisses Generals’ Concerns: ‘I Hear People Say, Well, Civil War This, Civil War That’
Last week, Gen. John Abizaid, the Commander of the U.S. Central Command, raised the prospect that Iraq could be sliding toward civil war. Abizaid said, “I believe that the sectarian violence is probably is as bad as I’ve seen it in Baghdad in particular, and that if not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war.” Gen. Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said, “I believe we do have the possibility of that devolving to a civil war.”
Today at a press conference, President Bush dismissed these concerns out of hand. Bush said, “You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that. The Iraqi people decided against civil war when they went to the ballot box.”
More than one hundred Iraqi civilians are dying per day, mostly in sectarian violence, according to a recent U.N. report.
Extended transcript:
BUSH: My attitude is that a young democracy has been born quite quickly. And I think the Iraqi government has shown remarkable progress on the political front. And that is is that they developed a modern constitution that was ratified by the people and then 12 million people voted for a government.
Which gives me confidence about the future in Iraq, by the way. You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that. The Iraqi people decided against civil war when they went to the ballot box. And a unity government is working to respond to the will of the people. And, frankly, it’s quite a remarkable achievement on the political front.
And the security front is where there has been troubles. And it’s going to be up to the Maliki government, with U.S. help, to use the trained forces and eventually a trained police force to take care of those who are trying to foment sectarian violence.
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Well he’s “the Decider” and has apparently decided that civil war is not happening.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:44 amDid the American people vote against civil war when they went to the ballot box in 1860?
Can someone please get W to open a history book?
August 7th, 2006 at 11:45 am“You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that. The Iraqi people decided against civil war when they went to the ballot box.â€
August 7th, 2006 at 11:47 amThis jerk is so deluded! When the Iraqis went to the ballot box they voted for whoever their tribal/clan leader told them to vote for. Hundreds of people are being killed each week with most of the carnage not due to AlQaeda “terrists” but Sunnis and Shiia capturing, torturing and killing the other.
The political front has no ability to stop this, as the security forces are comprised of Shiite militia whose controllers have little ability to intervene. Remember, in this government, the Sunni have only three “ministeries” and none of them involve security.
What a damn farce! Blow it out your ass Mr President!
Incompetent,dangerous POTUS this,incompetent,dangerous POTUS that.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:47 amGood God Almighty, he’s going to be at “Well, my Mom still likes me” levels of popularity. No wonder this idiot is toxic to 2006 GOP Congressional prospects.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:48 aminteresting definition.
now could we have such a distinct and salient definition for what victory is in regards to afganistan and iraq?
August 7th, 2006 at 11:49 amWow, maybe we’d believe the President ChickenHawk himself if he actually gave a speech in the Iraq Parliament, and then wandered about outside the Green Zone, lightly armed with no security or bodyguards otherwise, just the way the Iraqis themselves have to live
Of course, the fact that W doesn’t give advance notice that he’s traveling to Iraq kind of always undercuts his Pollyannaish naivete and flat-out lies regarding how wonderful Iraq is going
There’s not a level of Hell miserable enough for W and his whole Administration to suffer through for all eternity, even though he’ll be keeping company with the likes of Saddam’s sons, al-Zarqawi and his multimillionaire brother in arms & ideology, Usama bin Laden
August 7th, 2006 at 11:49 amSo much for “listening to the generals” Bush has been touting (as if this was believable). More cherry-picking of intelligence.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:51 amTo quote the great Wolcott “if Bush’s brain were any clearer it’d be a patch of blue sky.”
August 7th, 2006 at 11:53 amWhat do generals on the ground know about war? Dubya the drunken AWOL coward and his five deferment chickenhawk side kick and ultra-chickenshit chickenhawk brain Karl Rove say stay the course….
August 7th, 2006 at 11:54 amAll this time hasn’t he been saying, the generals on the ground will be making the decisions about troop strengths, etc?
August 7th, 2006 at 11:54 amWhat happened? Did they all just become as STOOPID as the prezidunce?
Well, civil war this, civil war that.
How old is our President? 5th grade? Thats probably the most juvenile response I’ve ever seen from him.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:55 amHe’s really echoing Condi here. The “democracy has been born” line sounds very similar to her “birth pangs” comment from last week. And the whole “remarkable political achievement” sounds like it’s straight from Condi’s mouth.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:57 amYou know, it was sort of fun bashing bush these last years, but this is NO FUN anymore.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:57 amStupid is as stupid does and Bush is stupid. He’s a puppet and his bosses tell him just sit and drink we’ll decide what to do. Our only hope is that Nov. brings a change of power and Bush steppes down before his impeachment. We should all pray that Americans join together to remove the corrupt officials quickly and get our troops out of this mess Bush has put them in. All the lies and stealing have caught up with this Administration. We have no Secretary of State just a girlfriend of the President holding the title. Cheney is working hard to steal as much money as he can before he leaves for medical problems and joins Ken Lay on the island.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:57 amI agree with KingCranky. Bush is the personification of denial and his credibility regarding Iraq is completely shot. Perhaps he is trying to appeal to those Americans who still believe that Iraq somehow possesses those elusive WMD. Seeing him make these erroneous assertions gives hope that someone will write a play for the 21st century entitled: “The Madness of King George.”
August 7th, 2006 at 11:57 amTime for our troop transports to load em up and head them out of bull shit bush’s hell…..My wish would be for all the troops to come home and surround the white house..Arrest and jail all the reich wingers and supporters of this terrible madness……Blessings, the world needs them …Peace, demand it now…..
August 7th, 2006 at 11:58 amI find myself anticipating tomorrow’s primary in Connecticut. THIS TO ME IS THE LITMUS TEST to what I WANT SO BADLY to happen in November…
August 7th, 2006 at 11:59 amGolly gee, what an intelligent, insightful and realistic appraisal of what is happening in George’s war. It must be a wonderful world in which gwb lives, because it certainly not the same one the rest of the world occupies. We have too much time left with this unfettered crazy man. If November doesn’t bring change to the power structure in Congress, then we may see civil war in the USA.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:59 am“You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that.”
Um…hello…those “people” are your generals.
August 7th, 2006 at 11:59 amWell, civil war this, civil war that.
I wonder just how unconcerned Dubya will be when it’s his country that’s in the throes of a civil war…
August 7th, 2006 at 12:00 pmHmmm…I thought i heard him say many times that he doesnt follow politics but only follows advice of the general on the ground……I guess that wasnt true either.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:00 pmDrop Bush outside the Green Zone in Baghdad to let him see for himself what a mess he has caused there!
August 7th, 2006 at 12:01 pm“a young democracy has been born quite quickly”
it wasn’t “born”… it wasn’t even conceived…
August 7th, 2006 at 12:02 pm#18
August 7th, 2006 at 12:04 pmI predict after Holy Joe is rebuffed and Lamont is taken in, ‘Ole Joe will become a Fox Contributor or Analyst within a month. He will be painting the horrible picture of what the Democratic Party is becoming and oogie boogieing the right with what will happen if the Dems take control.
#16 – Great idea Erroll – working on Act I, Scene I – The energy conference summit at the beginning of this Administration’s tenure…
August 7th, 2006 at 12:04 pm#22 – Make sure he wears his ‘flight suit’, you know, the one with the formidable cod piece!
August 7th, 2006 at 12:06 pmMy attitude is that a young democracy has been born quite quickly.
After a quick rape from the US that is. But this blastocyst of a democracy must be allowed to grow and become a “Sandflake”. We can not murder this blastocyst of freedom.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:06 pmWould someone please give this moron a drool bib, put him in a dark corner and duct tape his feeble genitals to his zipper?
August 7th, 2006 at 12:07 pmBush is truly insane. We have an insane person sitting in the oval office. No, I do not feel safe.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:07 pmFiddle dee-dee…war, war, war! I’m tired of all this war talk!
August 7th, 2006 at 12:08 pm-Scarlett
Lieberman will become another Zell Miller after tomorrow > ranting about Democrats being slime, but his GOP pals are pure corrupt filth, so who cares what Joe does after Tuesday!
August 7th, 2006 at 12:08 pmTo Bushco the Iraqis are just in the way of plundered Oil
August 7th, 2006 at 12:10 pmTry this.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:10 pmThey do not care about our country or the people of Iraq or anywhere else.
Quit assuming that they do, or that they care about what kind of job they are doing.
They have their agenda, and it’s not protecting the USA from WMD’s transported by camel in Iraq.
The fact that the reason for invading Iraq is a moving target that they change at will and are never held responsible for should tell us all something.
They do whatever they want, and get away with it.
This SOB couldn’t care less about the crap that he spits, or the damage that they do.
He knows they will never pay for it.
And I’m not thinking in cash.
The biggest irony of the last 6 years is that gwb was a history major at Yale.
I wonder if this guy even actually attended a class?
“Gentlemen’s C” my ass…when was the last time this guy cracked a book that had more pages of text than pictures?
August 7th, 2006 at 12:11 pm#24 – You are so right. Just like Newt’s fall from grace to become a Faux commentator, holy Joe will find his niche and continue trashing the Dems while getting paid the big bucks.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:12 pmMore mind boggling than the inane comment, is that people will shortly arrive to defend this lunatic. I hope to God you people can sort this out in November.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:13 pm#34 mongo,
August 7th, 2006 at 12:13 pmFrat boys don’t study, they cheat, then they get hired by other frat boys who didn’t learn anything either, it’s called “cronyism”, and it leaves a nation inept.
You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that.
Those “people” are his own generals. The Bush administration is now -yet again- refusing to listen to their own experts in the same way they rejected the 2004 NIE report because it was “too pesimistic”, and mere “guesses”. They are, once more, fixing the facts around the policy.
It is truly frightening to see the people in control of the largest economy, and military in the globe react to world events: If reality is not a reflection of their beliefs, they reject it and create their own, alternate reality.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:14 pmBush did well in that press conference on both Iraq and Hezbollah. He should do another national address to discuss this issue.
Oh, Lieberman has pulled back within 6% in polls, and since polls ALWAYS heavily favor the liberal over reality, Joe Lieberman is going to win his primary, then Jane Harmon and Hill’reh will be able to slam cut and runners.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:16 pmUmmm, we elected Lincoln twice and had a civil war. What’s your freakin’ point, George?
August 7th, 2006 at 12:17 pm2 parties(sides) now, pro-corporate vs. pro-citizen. I don’t even pay atttenetion to the (R) or (D)
August 7th, 2006 at 12:18 pmJason go marry old Joe and move to Israel > bye and have a nice life > lol.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:20 pmBush: ‘I Hear People Say, Well, Civil War This, Civil War That’ – - Bush’s speech is as corroded as that BP pipeline. He’s channeling Rummy now.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:21 pmWhat’s this crazy basterds IQ score any way. Any one know.? I am pretty much self educated since I droped out of high school a long time ago and know my score of 128 has got to be better than his….Give me the job for a day and I’ll fix it all. I’ll even donate my time and not take more than the usual lunch and 2 break’s…Hell all here but the troll’s can do even better than I could….Let’s do it….Commander in chief for a day and stop the madness……Blessings
August 7th, 2006 at 12:22 pmNed Lamont needs to immediately make an ad with Bush’s dream talk along with a picture of Liebermann.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:22 pm#39 – quinnipac poll shows Lamont 54, Lieberman 41. Which poll are you referring to?
August 7th, 2006 at 12:22 pmGeorge cannot admit a civil war in Iraq. It would be the clearest indication of failure of the policy he chose for the middle east. He will continue to ignore the reality of the situation, unless he has zero choice.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:24 pmA Quinnipiac University poll released Monday showed Lamont with a slight lead over Lieberman, 51 percent to 45 percent, among likely Democratic voters.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:25 pmJason, damn, boy your were right!
Tomorrow will tell…
#39 – quinnipac poll shows Lamont 54, Lieberman 41. Which poll are you referring to? – - The one he dreamed up.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:25 pmThe American government is a fraud. What should one expect from a military plutocracy that has fixed the last two Presidential elections and without a doubt, the last 3 and soon 4 general elections?
August 7th, 2006 at 12:28 pmA CT college poll is nonsense, since that probably reflects college Republican groups who love old Joe, but cannot vote for him in the primary election!
August 7th, 2006 at 12:29 pmLet this crackpot political and religious, speak more , more and more again .It will surely naill kiss ass joe liberman’s coffin shut tight.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:30 pmYou know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that.
This reminds me of a scene from Mel Brooks’ “To be or Not to Be” where Mel stages a play called “Spring Time for Hitler”.
The monologue goes something like this
Mel as Hitler addressing the crowed
“All I want is piece. A piece of Poland, a piece of Czechoslovakia, a piece of France etc.”
Somebody call Barbara Bush (GWB’s mother, not drunk slut daughter) and ask her if she squeezed too hard when she was giving birth to this idiot , which caused his brain damage.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:32 pmThere are really morons who believe this hack? Dubya is the dumbest sob to ever be in the White House and the idiots who defend him hate America and everything that it stands for. Vote Democrat, take back the country and then we go after the crooks who stole it with the help of the deliverance wing of the GOP.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:32 pm#39: Bush did well in that press conference on both Iraq and Hezbollah.
What do you mean by “doing well”? Does “doing well” mean successfully getting through a whole press conference without drooling or vomiting?
August 7th, 2006 at 12:32 pmLook, as an initial supporter of the liberation of Iraq — and who is now extremely pessimistic that democratization of that nation, or indeed that region, is possible, one has to admit the president has a point — There have been three successful and relatively peaceful elections in Iraq since Saddam’s regime was toppled, with each successive election showing ever greater levels of Sunni participation. Moreover, he is Commander-in-Chief of the armed forces. I don’t think we can expect any President of the United States to say, while troops are engaged in operations, that the mission is a failure.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:34 pmPresident George W. Bush, America’s greatest embarassment since… ah, hell, EVER.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:34 pmThat is pretty much what I said earlier Exley.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:38 pmBadmoodman, Bluedog49 — I think you owe Jason M. Hendler an apology…
August 7, 2006 – Lamont Leads Lieberman 51 – 45 In Dem Primary, Quinnipiac University Connecticut Poll Finds
Connecticut likely Democratic primary voters back challenger Ned Lamont 51 – 45 percent over incumbent Sen. Joseph Lieberman in the U.S. Senate race, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.
This compares to a 54 – 41 percent Lamont lead among likely Democratic primary voters in an August 3 poll by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University.
http://www.quinnipiac.edu/x11362.xml?ReleaseID=945
August 7th, 2006 at 12:38 pm#57
Look, as an initial supporter of the liberation of Iraq
Exley
We didn’t “liberate” Iraq. We liberated France from the Nazis, we liberated Kuwait from the Iraqis. We invaded and occupied Iraq. If you don’t get the first step in the thought process right everything after is flawed. If you stick with the “liberation” thing, didn’t we go there to get the WMDs?
August 7th, 2006 at 12:41 pm#61, I believe you can “liberate” a nation from an indigenous dictator. But really, I suppose we are just splitting rhetorical hairs.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:43 pmI don’t think we can expect any President of the United States to say, while troops are engaged in operations, that the mission is a failure.
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 12:34 pm
As much as I despise Bush and consider him an utter moron, I’m also in favour of elections and think they are a very positive thing. However, as you note yourself the outlook is pretty pessimistic, so what will have been the good of the elections if a full blown civil war over several years trashes the country, and drags in others from the region?
Plus, I expect the president to do what makes the most sense, and explain himself, especially given his the primary catalyst of this mess. Is that too much to expect?
August 7th, 2006 at 12:47 pmWhile I don’t really believe in the power of prayer, I am covering all bases and praying almost constantly that Leiberman goes down in flames tomorrow. That would put thr Democrats back on the road to saving this country in a way that nothing else would except a direct hit on the White House and I don’t want any harm to come to that beautiful, old, venerable and history-filled house so I’m not praying for that. Lieberman will do. Please, God.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:47 pm#62
August 7th, 2006 at 12:47 pmAgreed it can be a point of view. Such as “the New Orlean resident entered the local stores after the hurricane and “liberated” some food and alcohol.”
Ricky Bobby is not a thinker …..
( oops, sorry, I meant to say … )
G. W. Bush is not a thinker … he’s just a very bad “decider” ….
August 7th, 2006 at 12:48 pmThe man is nothing if not sure of himself. Exactly the kind of person who, in a tough situation, you would never, ever want to follow. The reason being that he’s always have an opinion on what to do that is usually based on the voices in his head more than any evidence or advice. He’s like an old dog who has lost his sense of smell, sure that he is on the scent, and proceeding in exactly the wrong direction.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:49 pmVery immature, BlueDog49. Just admit you were wrong and move on. So, Jason Hendler happens to keep track of political developments more closely than you. Big deal! You needn’t be so embarassed. Now, don’t you have something to say to Jason????
August 7th, 2006 at 12:50 pm# 54-Pissed Off:
No,I didn’t squeeze too hard when spawning my Georgie.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:53 pmAnd so what if he shoved fire crackers into frogs asses and blew them to kingdom come?
He has greater plans for Amurka.
I can’t believe W actually used “foment” correctly.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:54 pmOK Jason, you dirt bag, your survey results are old news…
August 3, 2006 – Lamont Leads Lieberman 54 – 41 In Dem Primary, Quinnipiac University Connecticut Poll Finds; Malloy Gains Some Ground In Governor’s Primary
Momentum for Ned Lamont, the anti-war Connecticut U.S. Senate candidate, increases as he rolls to a 54 – 41 percent lead over incumbent Sen. Joseph Lieberman among likely Democratic primary voters, according to a Quinnipiac University poll released today.
This compares to a 51 – 47 percent Lamont lead among likely Democratic primary voters in a July 20 poll by the independent Quinnipiac (KWIN-uh-pe-ack) University.
Bite Me.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:58 pm#61
Considering Saddam was NEVER elected….it was liberation. Saddam and his Baath party “occupied” Iraq for 30 years.
“If you stick with the “liberation†thing, didn’t we go there to get the WMDs?”
BOTH.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:59 pm“so what will have been the good of the elections if a full blown civil war over several years trashes the country, and drags in others from the region? Plus, I expect the president to do what makes the most sense”
Oh, I agree, Brian. But I just think it is unrealistic to expect this or any president to say a situation is hopeless, especially while U.S. troops are in harm’s way. He can acknowledge problems, mistakes, and difficulties (which he has done), but I don’t we can expect him to say that the situation has collapsed beyond all redemption. I mean, what would that do to the troops’ morale? Nothing good, I’d imagine. They are facing enough difficulties over there without having to hear their commander-in-chief saying they are fighting for a lost cause.
Plus, while I am pessimistic (as pessimistic as I have ever been), a small part of me still hopes that the Iraqi people will seize this historic opportunity, put aside their petty religious and ethnic feuds, and create a sustainable, peaceful, civilized democratic society….That admittedly seems less and less likely with each passing day, but a glimmer of hope remains.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:59 pmwhat a dumbass.
August 7th, 2006 at 12:59 pmCommander Clueless gives me a warm fuzzy everytime he decides whats actually happening.
If only the USA had elections during the 1800’s it could have spared itself a civil war.
If only bush was President back then.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:00 pmExley, I would expect the prez to call it like it is, the message to the troops would be, hang tough while we get you the hell out of hell.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:01 pmI’m surprised anyone asks him a question or really cares what pours out of the hole in his face.
It’s no great shock that The Great Leader is a dolt. I’ve personally tried to distance myself so far from his utterances that they no longer have much of an impact. I find this especially important with our growing children. We determined not to stain their developing minds with images or sounds of our national idiot.
What’s continually disturbing is that the mass media prints what this imbisile blathers without much question.
I know little about IRAQ, other than it’s a disaster area, yet I could stand before a microphone and speak something a lot more credible. Any of us could. So why is it that those who know the best, like these Generals, are brushed off the shoulder of The Great Leader like dandruff? And why is this not questioned?
August 7th, 2006 at 1:02 pm#76 – BTW, the ” petty religious and ethnic feuds” go back hundreds of years, like since the 7th century. Read some history, please.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:02 pmBlueDog, you have made yet another error when you wrote, “You’re both wrong about Lieberman …” I have taken no position on Lieberman v. Lamont. I could not care less who wins. In fact, I must say I take a certain amount of enjoyment out of seeing the Democratic Party tear at eachother like this. A divided Democratic Party is good for my side. I simply pointed out that Jason Hendler was correct when he cited his poll figures and you were wrong when you claimed those numbers did not exist. But I accept your apology.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:03 pmpetty religious and ethnic feuds – exley
Perfect example of your cluelessness. I suppose Isreal’s problems are just “petty religious and ethnic feuds” as well? These “petty religious and ethnic feuds” are just the OPPOSITE of what you say. They are THE focal point for ALL conflict in the Mid-East. Conflicts which ebb and flow for centuries are not due to “pettiness”. Idiot.
Now, where do you get your “Conservative” blinders anyway? The GOP store?
August 7th, 2006 at 1:04 pm#78 My pleasure. I have several spreadsheets I keep up to date with polling data. I was remiss in not having the CT race updated…
August 7th, 2006 at 1:04 pmBush is correct. Just like in 1860, when Americans went to the polls? It’s not like there was a civil war after that or anything.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:05 pm#84 – I simply pointed out that Jason Hendler was correct when he cited his poll figures and you were wrong when you claimed those numbers did not exist.
Did you read my post #74?
August 7th, 2006 at 1:05 pm#75
“If you stick with the “liberation†thing, didn’t we go there to get the WMDs?â€
BOTH.
Comment by Tracy
I didn’t know you are a bush administration policy maker. So when was BOTH decided upon? After the WMDs didn’t turn out to work very well for you?
As for the never elected thing. Why haven’t we invaded N. Korea yet? They have BOTH there.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:05 pmI don’t we can expect him to say that the situation has collapsed beyond all redemption.
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 12:59 pm
Neither do I, but for him to dismissively say “people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that.” is appalling. Those “people” are his own generals.
He could at least acknowledge that the opinion of those anonymous “people” might, just might, be based on facts and that he intends to react according to the new reality facing him.
Is that too much to ask?
August 7th, 2006 at 1:07 pm#86 – Now, where do you get your “Conservative†blinders anyway? The GOP store? DieNowForPeace
August 7th, 2006 at 1:07 pmROFLMAO!
#83…Thank you, RUCerious, but I am quite aware that these religious and ethnic tensions go back centuries, but that is hardly an excuse in the 21st century for Iraqis to throw up their hands and say, “Oh well, I guess we just have to go on killing one another.” It is time for the Iraqi people to stand up and stop the madness, let go of the hatred, and work together to seize this historic opportunity handed them by the United States, Great Britain, and the rest of the Coalition and create a civilized, stable, peaceful democracy. Whatever happened in 800 A.D. should be irrelevant to what happens in Iraq in 2006. I think you would agree with that.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:08 pmSince 2000, about 40,000 troops from all branches of the military have deserted, the Pentagon says. More than half served in the Army. But the Army says numbers have decreased each year since the United States began its war on terror in Afghanistan.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:08 pmBluedog49 –
August 7th, 2006 at 1:09 pmLet’s make a point of rubbing their noses in it Wed AM…
Uh Exley, that is what the entire middle east needs to do. I don’t disagree with your statements, in fact I agree whole heartedly, However the reality on the ground says, that this type of thing will never stop.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:10 pm# 93, Gregor, Yes, I will acknowledge he phrased himself rather inelegantly.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:10 pmOff subject Where is old cheney.? He has not had his big mouth open. Has anyone seen him?
August 7th, 2006 at 1:11 pmYou really don’t have a clue about how their culture operates.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:11 pmThere are some really good cultural antrho books you could read on the tribal mentality and how it affects the world view of this part of the world.
Do you remember the last “opportunity” the British gave them in 1932? Please enlighten us as to how that worked out.
Are you being serious Exley?
You actually don’t think the President has the moral and ethical responsibility to tell the troops the truth about the situation they’re in?
Why would that be? Because you’re really concerned about troop moral during a failure, or you’re concerned about a president having to admit failure?
August 7th, 2006 at 1:12 pmI don’t think we can expect any President of the United States to say, while troops are engaged in operations, that the mission is a failure.— Exley
I guess Exley thinks that Bush is infallible like the Pope.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:14 pmHe can acknowledge problems, mistakes, and difficulties (which he has done), but I don’t we can expect him to say that the situation has collapsed beyond all redemption.
Well … I don’t think so. He’s paid occasional lip service to the idea, but nothing concrete, like pulling your troops out!!? I mean he’s still in denial about what seems to be widely understood, the British are a useful bell weather in this regard. They have accepted that we have a civil war on our hands, so it won’t be long before you dotoo. Although I agree that he couldn’t possibly say what you are suggesting, but who is actually expecting that.
At some point he is going to have to say something about withdrawal, or is he just hoping to pass the whole bucket of slop to the next poor bastard who ends up in the whitehouse? Thats not very commendable either.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:14 pma small part of me still hopes that the Iraqi people will seize this historic opportunity, put aside their petty religious and ethnic feuds, and create a sustainable, peaceful, civilized democratic society
Of course what half way human person wouldn’t? These infuriating observations of the blindingly self evident are said as if we all are looking forward to Iraq imploding. No offence meant, really. Of course we are all hoping for that. However, what little chance of success there was, was sabotaged from the outset by incompetence and greed. Besides, the entire idea is flawed anyway, and now we can see it, and it’s why we were screaming against it from day one.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:14 pm#104
No shit, I’m sure the troops being pulled out of Vietnam thought they were winning until the last evac helicopter left the pad.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:15 pmI will acknowledge he phrased himself rather inelegantly.
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 1:10 pm
It is not so much his phraseology I am talking about, it is the dismissal of the opinion of the very same people who are experiencing the fight first hand.
What you are saying is that you’d rather have Pres Bush save face than the troops their lives.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:15 pmIsn’t what this has become all about Gregor?
Saving bushes face?
How would it look if the great decider failed, again?
IF that’s what conservatives think about our troops, then the mistake the USA made in 2000 and 2004 has just become magnified a thoudandfold.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:18 pm#101 – Last seen snarking in a dark room beneath the White House, mumbling heh, heh, all goes exactly according to master plan…
August 7th, 2006 at 1:19 pmBluePuP blurb….”I’ll apologize when people like you admit that Bush is a sociopathic liar and the worst president in American history.” – Comment by Bluedog49
*****Dear BluePuP – I wasn’t a Bill Clinton fan but admired the way he took good ideas from various quarters and implemented those he thought were good for our citizens in addition to being polititcally expedient. of course you are free to think GWB is a “sociopath” & “the worst President” we’ve had but consider the stupidity of your remarks when reviewing: Richard Nixon, Jimmy Carter, and Warren Harding. Frankly, I have been amazed that the US seems to have the “crisis-President” when we need it (Washington, Lincoln, Roosevelt, Reagan, Bush) and the “caretaker President” when immersed i relatively “quiet times”.
I am thankful NOT to have endured a Gore response to 9/11 or the uncertain “convictions” of Kerry. You might have wished for a more diplomatic response to 9/11, the assassination plot against Bush the Elder and an abandonment of our allies, but I think that belies weak character and few, if any principles….But perhaps you were potty-trained too early or lost the 6th grade Spelling Bee….
August 7th, 2006 at 1:20 pmHad Mr. Hendler limited his information transfer to the facts of the matter, (and optionally noted that they had come down from the double digiit spread of late last week) I might be more inclined to agree with you. The pointty stick jabs about polls leaning liberal and the addenda re Ms. Hamsher and Mrs. Clinton, he asked to be engaged.
mj
August 7th, 2006 at 1:24 pmOh man, The Mighty Aphrodite think bush is a ‘crisis-President’.
That’s the most bizarre thing I’ve read today, and that’s including all of I Hate Liberals posts.
Crisis President: Sit stunned while America is under Attack.
Crisis President: Play a guitar while NOLA drowns.
Crisis President: Delays diplomatic intervention in Israel Lebanon War.
Crisis President: Rather lie to the troops about their current situation then tell them the truth and admit he’s a failure.
What a laugh.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:25 pmOh man, The Mighty Aphrodite think bush is a ‘crisis-President’.
Well, MA is basically incoherent, so who knows what it really means when she spouts non-sequitors composed of words she doesn’t quite understand.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:28 pmmighty aphrodite,
> I am thankful NOT to have endured a Gore response to 9/11 or the uncertain
Can any response be worse than what Bush did? Are you a complete moron. All that seems to matter is “US show of force” and nothing else. A targeted response to get Osama would have been far more effective.
And Iraq? Are you out of your mind? Killing innocent people for your own shortcomings is what exactly? If assisnation plot is all that matters, US would have kicked out of this planet long ago.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:30 pmnon-sequitur
August 7th, 2006 at 1:31 pm#119
Are you a complete moron. Yes.
Are you out of your mind? Yes.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:32 pmis he just hoping to pass the whole bucket of slop to the next poor bastard who ends up in the whitehouse? Thats not very commendable either.
Bush has already said that he’s going to leave the whole mess to his successor.
Frank Rich recently summed it up very nicely.
It’s called kicking the can down the road.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:33 pmI point out that the first WTC attack happened 30 days into Clinton’s two terms. He not only captured, tried and jailed all the terrorists involved in this attack, but no other attack happened on our soil for the next 7 years of his administration.
But but but, he lied about a blow job!!!
August 7th, 2006 at 1:35 pmBush The Crisis President :
“All right, you’ve covered your ass now.â€
August 7th, 2006 at 1:38 pmsince the biggest crises facing this country, is one of our own creation, how does bush stack up?
August 7th, 2006 at 1:40 pmYou might have wished for a more diplomatic response to 9/11
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 7, 2006 @ 1:20 pm
I wished for a more accurate, on target, timely, distraction-free response to 9/11
To establish a historical parallel, attacking Iraq after 9/11 was as ill-conceived as it would have been if the US had launched an all-out assault on China in retaliation for Pearl Harbor.
Picking a country in the “general area” and sending the troops over there does not intelligent foreign policy make.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:42 pmYou mean, Bush: The Crisis Creatin’ President.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:43 pmGILDED Age
August 7th, 2006 at 1:47 pm#91
I has always been both even before November 2002. Have you listened to ANY of Bush’s speeches or the 2003 State of the Union address? Or did you only que in on the WMD part?
“Why haven’t we invaded N. Korea yet? They have BOTH there.”
They have nukes that could be fired on and reach the U.S. That is a little different than a chemical artillery shell. No one said the Saddam for sure had a nuke.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:47 pmOh, he’s the worst in so many ways, but let’s not forget his strength:
Best Lapdog President EVER!
August 7th, 2006 at 1:48 pmwhat steps did the republican congress of the ’90s take in helping Clinton fight terrorism?
The GWOF (Global War On Fellatio)!
About as pertinent to fighting terrorism as Bush attacking Iraq.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:48 pmThat is a little different than a chemical artillery shell.
But it was a shell that could have been used against a target only 7,000 miles from the US as late as 15 years ago.
That ol’ 1% option, y’know…
August 7th, 2006 at 1:51 pmThat’s very true Tracy, the problem there was that there will always be some uncertainty about how quickly he could have acquired nuclear weapons. But they didn’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:53 pm#143 – Poor AnAmerican – did you not learn to put together a comprehensive “time-line” in school? Let’s examine your “off the cuff” ignorance:
“Crisis President: Sit stunned while America is under Attack.”
*****As opposed to jumping up in front of a classroom full of 7 year old, telling them to hit the deck, running down the hall, screaming and panicing the whole way – I understand the emotional nature of progs, but sometimes a crisis is best responded to by remaining calm, gathering the FACTS, and coordinating a response. (You appear to be an excellent example of why progs make great puppy handlers and poor presidents.)
“Crisis President: Play a guitar while NOLA drowns.”
******Again, a timeline might have saved you from displaying your stupidity. Bush was not hanging out with McCain while the levees broke in NO. The levee breaks caused the most widespread damage but WHY confuse YOU with facts – you have an agenda and FACTS might get in your way…..
“Crisis President: Delays diplomatic intervention in Israel Lebanon War.”
******Spoken like a true FoHHSI – friend of Hezbollah and Hamas, Syria and Iran….I for one, am grateful the Israelis are prepared to take out barbarians – I realize some of you want to “understand and make friends” with them and others would be happy to simply see them domesticated – been fitted for that comfy burka yet?
“Crisis President: Rather lie to the troops about their current situation then tell them the truth and admit he’s a failure.”
******The troops know the situation in Iraq and Afghanistan – hopefully the governments in both countries can but a lid on the Islamo-wacks. But if they cannot and a Civil War demonstrates the barbarism of 7th Century thinking, it is NOT due to the chance never offered them by an American President and her brave military – it is an example of an opportunity squandered. P.S. When are you going to quit giving aid and comfort to our enemies….
Back to play later…..
August 7th, 2006 at 1:54 pmLOL
Did you really just try to say that Bush didn’t want to excuse himself from a classroom full of schoolkids to go attend to his duties??
If that’s the best you have, I’ll just skip those next three.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:55 pm#143??MA, are you pychic? #143 ain’t happened yet?!
August 7th, 2006 at 1:56 pmOUT OF TOUCH
We had a puppet government in Vietnam also … that didnt make all the difference now did it? You can make puppet governments easy…. you can even call them democracies… but that doesnt mean that you are not living a fantasy.
August 7th, 2006 at 1:57 pmDamn, forget my chell specker..
August 7th, 2006 at 1:58 pm#133
August 7th, 2006 at 1:59 pmSo you think its okay to kick little dogs(Iraq) but if they can bite back(Korea) you believe that its better to let them be. Your bravado is false.
#139 – I thought FoHHSI meant Fond of Having his Sobriety Inebriated?
August 7th, 2006 at 2:00 pm#96
Those found out that they might actually get shot at…..oops!
August 7th, 2006 at 2:02 pmSomebody get this Ass a straight jacket! Please!
August 7th, 2006 at 2:03 pmBlue-PupPPy -According to your “logic” Carter could have appointed himself the first Sec’y of Energy and then done us a huge favour and resigned the Presidency. I would LOVE to eliminate ME oil from our energy diet (and perhaps that was Mr. Jimmeh’s strong suit) but his response to domestic problems and international threats was inept at worst and anemic at best.
Clinton viewed terror as a “law enforcement” issue not a foreign policy issue and on that, people can disagree. I believe he did the best he could WITH WHAT HE KNEW. Progs not nearly as generous. I believe in hindsight he would have taken Osama off the market IF he knew what was coming down the road….but he didn’t know. I still don’t understand the lack of response to the embassy bombings and the USS Cole, but not comprehending Dems is not new…
August 7th, 2006 at 2:04 pmAs opposed to jumping up in front of a classroom full of 7 year old, telling them to hit the deck, running down the hall, screaming and panicing the whole way – MA
I forgot you live in a world of extreme absolutes. Here’s a more realistic way of dealing with said situation.
“Sir, terrorists just flew a plane into the WTC” – Secret Service
“Let’s roll” – Bush (politely thanks the class, then abruptly leaves, wondering if the “terrrrists” might try to assassinate him SINCE HIS SCHEDULE WAS PUBLISHED WELL IN ADVANCE.)
“But sir!” – Secret Service
“Men, we are being attacked. Get me on AF1, send some free books to the kids and my apologies. We’ve got serious work to do.” – Bush
Instead, I’ve never seen a more confused, lost human in my life. Poor little “decider”, him was just too confused, never having been confronted with such a burden of a tragedy in his wittle, sheltered life… I felt sorry, only for one second, for that lowest of moments in his life being forever captured on film. PRICELESS.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:04 pma crisis is best responded to by remaining calm, gathering the FACTS, and coordinating a response.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 7, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
Remaining calm: Saying “we don’t want the smoking gun to be a mushroom cloud” is not to remain calm but to engage in fearmongering.
Gathering the FACTS: Blathering about “east, west, south and north somewhat” was not giving the American public factual information.
Coordinating a response: Attacking the people who have not attacked you is a response, to be sure. I just don’t know what you’d expect to accomplish. Osama Bin Laden, AlQaeda, and the Taliban are still stil alive and well.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:06 pmAphrodite, who could read past your first point refuting the proposition that Bush might have actually gotten up and left the building when he was told that America was under attack? You said: “*****As opposed to jumping up in front of a classroom full of 7 year old, telling them to hit the deck, running down the hall, screaming and panicing the whole way ”
August 7th, 2006 at 2:06 pmCome on. Nobody here suggested that. You think Bush had two options? The one above or to continue to play with the little kids? I used to read some of your comments, but that was the end. No more. No credibility left. Bye.
Dubya’s Decision
People say,
August 7th, 2006 at 2:10 pm‘civil war this,’
and
‘civil war that.’
For them
I give not
the ass
of a gnat.
I am the one
who can decide
what truth is true
and what to hide
And with whom
to take
a
bicycle ride
So feed me no pretzels
tell me no facts
just heed my decision
Or you’ll get the axe.
Folks, here is the big picture:
The BushCo went into Iraq for ONE reason. To build permanent bases and to establish a permanent presence. Has anybody noticed a large scale dicussion about these bases?
Now, about Israel & Hezbolah. The BushCo wants Israel to do a clean sweep through Lebanon, Syria, Iran, all the way to the border with Iraq.
Everything that’s been happening with the US and Israel is all by DESIGN. It’s all part of the script.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:14 pmMy dog has more sense than George W.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:19 pmWhere’s Sonny Bono when the Republicans need him?
August 7th, 2006 at 2:21 pmThe Crisis President. It took me longer than seven minutes of stunned silence to recover from that unbelievable post. And pray tell, just exactly how did the “Crisis President” deal with OBL? Oh, that’s correct, OBL is still cutting rock videos. Thanks, for playing, please collect your year supply of Rice A Roni as your consolation prize. Crisis President indeed.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:21 pm[...] Think Progress for the transcript) Filed Under: War coverage, Bush, Iraq Trackback Permalink postCount(’10019449′); | EMail ThisPost [...]
August 7th, 2006 at 2:22 pmHey, Sonny Bono is dead.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:22 pmIt took Iraq as long to get a constitution as it took for George to dismantle our constitution.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:26 pmHey Bluedog,
The President was on vacation on Tuesday! Get off his case.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:27 pmI hope Cindy Sheehan is raising hell down in Crawford.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:28 pmI think the Connecticut Cowboy is milking the horse, correct?
August 7th, 2006 at 2:31 pmHorses? On a Ranch? Rove hasn’t told him about those yet.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:31 pmShhh don’t disillusion the trolls.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:32 pmCome on you Bush lovers… defend him…
August 7th, 2006 at 2:32 pmIf you defend Bush, you’re as unAmerican as they come.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:33 pmA real patriot would stand up to him… but the Bushites are chickenshit, chickenhawks….
August 7th, 2006 at 2:34 pmI think they’ve given up defending him on this story.
The only defense they had was some bullshit about lying to the troops in order to keep up morale.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:35 pmAnd, does Laura believe her husband is gay? Just wondering.
Comment by Bluedog49
That would explain why the Condi tryst seems so believable. George is gay.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:37 pmHow could you support someone who knowingly supports the killing of innocent people? How could you support someone that sent our soldiers to fight on deceitful intelligence?
Are we more secure than we were on Sept. 11? I think not.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:37 pmClinton’s law enforcement approach to the first WTC attack: all perpetrators captured, tried and convicted; currently in jail.
Supplemental to that result, we need to add the “not dead” 50,000 nameless foreigners.
Law enforcement is always the correct approach to terrorism.
You need look no further then the British/Irish conflict, remember the IRA actually killed members of the British government and very nearly killed Margreat Thatcher herself by bombing the hotel the cabinet were staying in. That gentlemen, is restraint, and Maggie was no shrinking violet. It takes time, decades, there are ups there are downs. However in the 30 years of IRA terrorism (Ireland has roughly the population of Lebanon), some 3000 innocent people died violently.
In this “spat†in Lebanon, the current conflict has claimed 1000+ innocent lives. After 2 weeks. Iraq, 30,000 initially and 15,000 a year. Thats the difference.
There is of course no panacea, no easy solution, I’m sorry to have to disappoint you in that regard:-( War, unless it is going to be genocidal all out war to kill millions, will never resolve these kinds of issues, and will invariably make things worse.
The military have never been, and never will be a solution to terrorism.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:38 pmThe only crisis that Bush had was to clean out his shorts when told about the World Trade Center in front of the kids…. and I heard that Bush blamed the smell on one of the kids…
August 7th, 2006 at 2:41 pmBush’s moniker should be “The Dumbinator”.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:46 pmThose generals should be ignored anyway since (using Newt Gingrich’s twisted logic) these generals are “insurgents”.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:48 pmOld Bushies does not know how to ride a horse as when he was down in Mexico Fox want to go horse back riding and Old Bushies said no. He is a chickenliver.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:51 pmEverything you see about Iraq in the newspaper and on tv is made up so we can raise the price of oil to $200 a barrel by the end of GW’s presidency… Saddam is still in charge…
August 7th, 2006 at 2:52 pmIt is a characteristic of an alcoholic family, to create crisis after crisis. They think its the only way to bring the family together.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:52 pmAlso, no horse ridin’ Bush also vacations at a fake ranch, bought just before the 2000 election.
August 7th, 2006 at 2:54 pm[...] Then I saw this Think Progress post: Today at a press conference, President Bush dismissed these concerns out of hand. Bush said, “You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that. The Iraqi people decided against civil war when they went to the ballot box.†[...]
August 7th, 2006 at 2:57 pmThank you for pointing out that in front of small groups of young children, PROGS can rise to a level of mature adult behaviour. (Frankly, such maturity is too often lacking here…) Not to change the subject, but how are NedL.’s poll numbers holding up as the CT race enters the final stretch???
August 7th, 2006 at 3:03 pmI seem to recall the Iraqi peole “went to the ballot box” when Saddam was in power, too.
George Bush is clearly a simpleton with understanding of reality. Or else he thinks the American people are too stupid to question his BS.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:05 pmMake that, with NO understanding of reality. sheesh.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:05 pm#184 – “It is a characteristic of an alcoholic family, to create crisis after crisis. They think its the only way to bring the family together.” – Comment by For Truth
*****Info you garnered from first hand experience….or from principled, unselfish social work???
August 7th, 2006 at 3:06 pm#
Not to change the subject, but how are NedL.’s poll numbers holding up as the CT race enters the final stretch???
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 7, 2006 @ 3:03 pm
#
Umm not to point out what an idiot you are, but you are trying to change the subject, after getting spanked over your poor and rather illogical arguments. I believer that Mr. Lamont was discussed either in this thread, or in another one. Perhaps if you tried reading you would find the appropriate spot.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:07 pm“Clinton’s law enforcement approach to the first WTC attack: all perpetrators captured, tried and convicted; currently in jail.”
Brian, in all of our various discussions you have not yet explained how a “law enforcement” approach to 9/11 would work. Would the FBI just gone over to Afghanistan with an arrest warrant and placed Osama Bin Laden and other Al Qaeda figures under arrest? And the Taliban would have allowed this because…?
No, Brian, while law-enforcement certainly has a very large role to play in combatting terrorism, so does military action.
And you simply cannot compare the IRA with Al Qaeda. While the IRA was certainly a terrorist group, they did not compare to the reach and nihilsim of Al Qaeda. The IRA was a homegrown terrorist group with limited goals. In that sense they were much more similar to 1960s and 1970s U.S. terrorist groups like the Weathermen, the FALN, and the Symbionese Liberation Army, and therefore susceptible to law-enforcement methods. Al Qaeda is an entirely different creature. It is an international organization that seeks WMDs and whose stated goal is to kill Americans and Westerners. To use a cliche. you are comparing apples and oranges.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:10 pmDear Idio-LITZ – Yes, as I recall, Saddam was overwhelmingly re-elected time and time and time and time again!! (Am modern political “miracle”!!) I have a difficult time finding any voters who voted FOR the “opposition” candidate – can you put me in touch? (pointing me to a headstone does NOT count!)
August 7th, 2006 at 3:12 pmP.S. I heard they have elections in Cuba, too!! Democracy is a wonderful thing – but communism sucks….
It’s all Bill Clinton’s fault.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:13 pm[...] not mine Last week, Gen. John Abizaid, the Commander of the U.S. Central Command, raised the prospect that Iraq could be sliding toward civil war. Abizaid said, “I believe that the sectarian violence is probably is as bad as I’ve seen it in Baghdad in particular, and that if not stopped, it is possible that Iraq could move toward civil war.†Gen. Peter Pace, Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, said, “I believe we do have the possibility of that devolving to a civil war.†[...]
August 7th, 2006 at 3:14 pmDick Cheney put Saddam in power, so he may remove Saddam if he so desires.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:15 pmMy dear Krazy – “Spanked”??? Hardly…..The problem with progs – lacking anything substantive to say, they process their opinions as FACTS. “If they “FEEEEEL” something, it “MUST” be the truth”…
And Neddy’s numbers are…..where? Conservatives are hoping the Ned Lamont Show hits all 50 states as the “Roving Prog Road Show”….maybe we could team up the Connecticaut Cable King with the Queen of Mourning Glories (and Crawfords NEWEST resident) for a ‘We HATE GWB tour”. (John Kerry and Al Gore could be the warm-up acts…)
August 7th, 2006 at 3:19 pmExley — if I am not mistaken, the Clinton approach was to invoke military action when necessary, or were the missiles fired into Afghanistan my imagination. I seem to recall that and a missile strike in the Sudan which were derided as some kind of wag the dog campaign by the GOP Congress, which was too busy worrying over a blow job than national security. The GOP talking points in this context should hold no water here (except I suppose for failed policy apologists like yourself) precisely because the administration’s response to 9/11 has been less than a success. They apparently have managed to screw up any early successes in Afghanistan by diverting to Iraq. Thanks, but I would take Clinton’d foreign policy over the current wreck now. Can we really point to one single foreign policy success? I am sure you will eventually stop apologizing for the failures once oil hit $100 a barrel.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:22 pmBrian,
And, with regard to Israel’s current battle against Hezbollah in Lebanon; Hezbollah is not simply a terrorist organization. It is an army, with sophisticated, modern militart equipment supplied by terrorist states Iran and Syria. As today’s New York Times reports:
“Hezbollah is a militia trained like an army and equipped like a state, and its fighters “are nothing like Hamas or the Palestinians,†said a soldier who just returned from Lebanon. “They are trained and highly qualified,†he said, equipped with flak jackets, night-vision goggles, good communications and sometimes Israeli uniforms and ammunition. “All of us were kind of surprised.â€
Much attention has been focused on Hezbollah’s astonishing stockpile of Syrian- and Iranian-made missiles, some 3,000 of which have already fallen on Israel … But Iran and Syria also used those six years to provide satellite communications and some of the world’s best infantry weapons, including modern, Russian-made antitank weapons and Semtex plastic explosives, as well as the training required to use them effectively against Israeli armor. It is Hezbollah’s skillful use of those weapons — in particular, wire-guided and laser-guided antitank missiles, with double, phased explosive warheads and a range of about two miles — that has caused most of the casualties to Israeli forces. Hezbollah’s Russian-made antitank missiles, designed to penetrate armor, have damaged or destroyed Israeli vehicles, including its most modern tank, the Merkava, on about 20 percent of their hits, Israeli tank commanders at the front said. Hezbollah has also used antitank missiles, including the less modern Sagger, to fire from a distance into houses in which Israeli troops are sheltered, with a first explosion cracking the typical concrete block wall and the second going off inside.”
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/07/world/middleeast/07hezbollah.html?_r=1&oref=slogin
Israel cannot address the threat posed by Hezbollah through “law enforcement methods.” Hezbollah is a miliary organization that needed to be confronted militarily.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:22 pmAnd Neddy’s numbers are…..where? Conservatives are hoping the Ned Lamont Show hits all 50 states as the “Roving Prog Road Showâ€â€¦.maybe we could team up the Connecticaut Cable King with the Queen of Mourning Glories (and Crawfords NEWEST resident) for a ‘We HATE GWB tourâ€. (John Kerry and Al Gore could be the warm-up acts…)
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Something you ‘felt’, huh?
August 7th, 2006 at 3:23 pm#187 – please see #74
August 7th, 2006 at 3:25 pmAny comments?
MightyA,
Go suck up to Rush, Sean, and Ann… and the rest of the Bushites… you conservatives are the devolution of the human race… why are you so afraid of people?.. especially ones that have different beliefs than you…
August 7th, 2006 at 3:25 pmmaybe we could team up the Connecticaut Cable King with the Queen of Mourning Glories (and Crawfords NEWEST resident) for a ‘We HATE GWB tourâ€
Hey Mighty A is getting it right. She fianlly sees that liberals don’t hate America….just the a-holes in charge that are destroying it.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:28 pm#200, No More Bush,
I fully supported Clinton’s strikes against Al Qaeda in Afghanistan and the El Shifa plant in the Sudan (Let us remember that at the time of the El Shifa strike the Clinton administration told us (truthfully, I believe) that evidence showed that Al Qaeda had received help from Iraqi nerve gas experts in Sudan).
Unfortunately, subsequent events — the bombing of the USS Cole and, of course, most tragically, 9/11 –have shown that those strikes were insufficient and only emboldened Al Qaeda.
As I said, law enforcement has a definite and significant role to play in fighting terrorism. But so does efefctive military action.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:29 pmHey – MA, don’t leave before checking out #74!
August 7th, 2006 at 3:29 pmNow, to do that, you have to scroll the screen by clicking your mouse in the vertical bar at the far right of your browser. Then, amazingly! you drag the mouse in an upward motion to make the contents of the previous posts appear! Repeat until you reach #74. then read. Ta ta!
“If they “FEEEEEL†something, it “MUST†be the truthâ€â€¦ Comment by mighty aphroditeâ€
Who said that they like to make decisions from the gut? Who was that again MA? Oh yeah it was the boy king.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:30 pmRandi Rhodes, occasionally on her show, plays a song that I think goes so well with GWB’s latest ‘opus’. It’s called “Whatever”, and it is what I feel he is essentially saying here. He really does not care what ANYONE says. He is the “Decider”, and he has decided against facing reality. So there! He makes me SO tired, and angry too. I could SO bust a wooden spoon on his ass. What a Pudendum Head.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:31 pm#204 – “…especially ones that have different beliefs than you… ”
Comment by SM returns
It’s not the ones with different “beliefs” that bother me – it’s the one’s with different “methods” of imposing THOSE beliefs…I have an intese aversion to suicide bomb vests, ZimZel rockets and machetes…The Barbarians send a great big “Praise Allah” and “Thank you” for youyr support. Can they count on you for the joint BBC/AlJezeera telethon???? Stay tuned for more details….
August 7th, 2006 at 3:32 pm#214 Cyra, I live in Bothell and have a whole bunch of wooden spoons for you!!
August 7th, 2006 at 3:33 pmYes, law enforcement does have an effective role, but during the 2004 campaign when Kerry mentioned that both law enforcement and military approaches are necessary, I recall the congenitally arrogant Bush-Cheney team (along my favorite bitch, Lynne Cheney) barely able to hold back their laughter at such a ridiculous notion spun out by someone who obviously knows nothing of fighting terra. I am still waiting for OBL to brought in “dead or alive”? Now exactly where is he?
August 7th, 2006 at 3:33 pmlacking anything substantive to say, they process their opinions as FACTS. “If they “FEEEEEL†something, it “MUST†be the truthâ€â€¦
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 7, 2006 @ 3:19 pm
This is rich coming from someone whose first two posts were either a strawman, a smear about someone’s potty training (??), or showed a lack of awareness on the Katrina timeline (Pres Bush was with McCain on Aug 29th, as Katrina made landfall).
Not to mention the comment I am replying to has the distinctive Aphrodite lack of substance, POV, “I feel this is right” stench to it.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:34 pm#218 He’s in a country run by an unelected strongman who is one of our great allies in the GWTFOT. Name’s Musharraf
August 7th, 2006 at 3:36 pm#213 “You substituted your opinion as a fact.”
Are you saying that the bombing of the USS Cole and 9/11 are “opinions?”
I’m pretty sure those are factuall events. Clearly, the 1998 strikes against Al Qaeda were insufficient.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:36 pm#206 Made absolutely perfect bushbot sense. If you think bush had more than 2 options during the morning of 911, you obviously hate terrorism.
That’s just more good bushbot comedy.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:36 pm#224 and where 18 of the 20 9/11 hijackers proudly called home.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:38 pm#218, NoMoreBush….That is inaccurate. President Bush has always said the war on terrorism has many fronts, including law enforcement. Look to his speech of September 21, 2001 as a starting point.
No, the mockery was leveled at Kerry’s statement equating terrorism with prostitution and illegal gambling:
The magazine article, a largely analytical cover story by Matt Bai, Kerry is asked “what it would take for Americans to feel safe again.”
”We have to get back to the place we were, where terrorists are not the focus of our lives, but they’re a nuisance,” the article states as the Massachusetts senator’s reply.
”As a former law enforcement person, I know we’re never going to end prostitution. We’re never going to end illegal gambling. But we’re going to reduce it, organized crime, to a level where it isn’t on the rise. It isn’t threatening people’s lives every day, and fundamentally, it’s something that you continue to fight, but it’s not threatening the fabric of your life.”
August 7th, 2006 at 3:42 pmYes, they were mocking using criminal means to contain terrorism. If you think terrorism can be ended (like an armistace following a war), then you are deluded. The mockery was not deserved because Kerry was correct. The War on Terra is a war without end.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:45 pmUnfortunately, subsequent events — the bombing of the USS Cole and, of course, most tragically, 9/11 –have shown that those strikes were insufficient and only emboldened Al Qaeda.
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 3:29 pm
If we are going to follow in this logical path, may I propose, then, that invading a country that was wholly unrelated to the event in question, and getting stranded there in a hugely costly war with virtually no end in sight can only serve to further embolden AlQaeda?
August 7th, 2006 at 3:48 pmHey, Sonny Bono is dead.
Comment by Tom Fogley — August 7, 2006 @ 2:22 pm
That’s what happens when you try to take down a tree on skis, sorry Sonny.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:51 pm#229 – See #74
August 7th, 2006 at 3:51 pmIf the shot missed Bin Ladin, the United States would look weak, and Bin Ladin would look strong.â€
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 3:54 pm
Let’s fill in the blanks:
One shot that failed to hit bin Laden makes the US look weak and bin Laden strong.
One 3-year long (and counting) occupation that has failed so far to capture bin Laden makes the US look ____ and bin Laden ____
August 7th, 2006 at 3:59 pmExley,
by your own statements, you could cast the Iraq war as ineffective. After all if it had been effective, then there would not have been the Madrid, London and Indian bombings. Though I am unsure if the bombing in India was connected to Al Qeada, or if it was a local group.
August 7th, 2006 at 3:59 pmOne shot that failed to hit bin Laden makes the US look weak and bin Laden strong.
Lieberman has been a leader in the senate in fighting terrorism for 16 years. He is a true leader who has worked with John McCain on the issue for a long time. He is a tested leader under fire. He has been a tireless promoter of civil rights, he votes with the Democrats 90% of the time and he will do CT proud. Joementum!
August 7th, 2006 at 4:07 pm#236,
I am not debating here the effectiveness of the Iraq war. That is a separate topic. I think we are focused on the question of whether military action is ever justified or useful in fighting terrorism. And if not, what are the alternatives?
But the War on Terror is not designed to stop every terrorist act in every country around the world for all time. There will always be terrorism of a sort. The current war on terror is focused on global terrorist organizations that are seeking WMDs and have shown a willingness and ability to carry out massive attacks anywhere in the world — Groups such as Al Qaeda.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:07 pm#220 – “But not to indiscriminate bombs hurled from a plane.”
– comment by bLIAR
******Please tell your Hezbollah friends and admirers that IF they would quit hiding themselves and weaponry behind their obviously expendable women and children, there would be FAR fewer civilian casualties. P. S. A big thank you to Hezbollah and Hamas for those leaflets and phone calls warning of upcoming strikes – OHHHHH…that was the Israelis????? Hezbollah seeks to kill Jewish civilians??? Such “barbarians” those Israelis – to warn the innocent,,,,who knew?
“So you think the Palestinian Jews (that’s what they are) are barbarians because they’re muslims?” – Idiocy….again….
August 7th, 2006 at 4:08 pm******If they are Muslims they are NOT Jews…Semites – maybe – but not Jews….You might want to stop for a bit with this idiotic assertion – you look more stupid than usual….
Clearly, if the 1998 strikes had been effective those subsequent events would not have taken place.
Liemberman has been a leader on the Kobar towers issues and the cole bombing. He fought to bring those terrorists to justice in his work in the senate. Send him back to washington so he can continue the work he has been doing fighting global muslim extremeism. Joementum!
August 7th, 2006 at 4:10 pmFair enough, my thoughts,
we do need to at times use military force to achieve objectives in defeating Al Qaeda and other estremist groups. However I don’t see use of large military forces doing set peice battles as the best solution. Look at the difficulties Isreal is having in rooting out, and eliminating Hezbollah. Use of black op teams, air strikes, and other methods, would better. Partially, because international base of Al Qaeda, but also, because destroying a village to kill on guy, has a tendency to backfire.
this type of action, requires good working alliances. this is after all a matter that is affecting the whole world, not just the US. That means getting Europe, Asia, and the middle on the same page. It also requires that tolerance is taught in middle eastern schools, and not the current hate.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:16 pm#246,
Krazny, To quote you, “Fair enough.”
And I would say what you described is what took place in Afghanistan. It was a relatively small operation (17,000 troops or so) backed by the world, including the UN and NATO, that relied heavily on Special Ops (along with some conventional warfare; such as aerial bombings of Taliban military positions).
I think you and I are in agreement. I am curious what my esteemed opponent (not enemy) Brian Coughlan has to say about this.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:21 pm“You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that. The Iraqi people decided against civil war when they went to the ballot box.â€
And all the violence is from an insurgency gasping its last breath.
And Harriet Miers is still the most qualified person in America for the Supreme Court.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:25 pmYeah I saw a special on the history channel, about the air force commando’s. they with air support pretty much helped the Afgans overthrow the taliban.
For the record, I was for the entry in afghanistan, to capture Bin Laden, and destroy his support structure. I do think that the decision to invade Iraq was a poorly made, and with increasing threats from Iran, and North Korea, along with possibility of civil war in Iraq, it is becoming apparent that Iraq was a mistake.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:27 pmI do think that the decision to invade Iraq was a poorly made, and with increasing threats from Iran, and North Korea, along with possibility of civil war in Iraq, it is becoming apparent that Iraq was a mistake.
Comment by Krazny — August 7, 2006 @ 4:27 pm
Krazny, the idea of a war on Iraq was wrong not for the reasons you mention but for others. There is this conception of the Western world that non-caucasian people are savages and barbarians, clueless inferior beasts that cant stand up for themselves to overthrow Saddam, lets say (see also, how Africa has been divided by Europeans, so africans can afford Western products, as if they care). So, we, the almighty, caring, superior race should help them to get democracy, freedom, McNUggets and Body Soho, there. Of course, governments know this is BS and they go straight for their interests (Oil, opium, etc.) but we, the common people, are fed up with the lie that those poor people cant do anything unless we provide them our stupid philosophy of free-market (which is not working even in the US!) and overrated concept of democracy. We are racists.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:38 pmKrazny,
Yes, I only know of one person personally who was opposed to the Afghanistan operation, but even he has come around on that.
As for Iraq…*sigh*…I must say I supported that operation, but — while I still do believe the toppling of Saddam Hussein enhanced U.S. security and COULD HAVE made life better for the Iraqi people (an opportunity which they seem to be squandering) — it doesn’t appear to working out the way I had hoped.
In recent weeks, I sometimes (but not always) feel like pulling a Bobby Kennedy and reversing myself on a war I initially supported. However, I cannot say that I believe that the invasion of Iraq was launched for anything other than noble reasons. I do not believe the “Bush lied” conspiracy theorists.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:39 pmJuan C, Your formulation indicates that you believe the Iraqi people were happy under Saddam’s rule. Is that your position?
August 7th, 2006 at 4:42 pmHistorically Exley, wars have been fought over access to natural resources. Not all of them of course, but a great majority. Often times window dressing is placed on them to make them more acceptable to the general public. During WWII access to oil and other resources, was what both germany and japan needed, and were ultimetly strangled by lack of. I don’t engage in gigantic conspiracy theories, but it I do view the conflict in Iraq, as an attempt to control the oil in Iraq, and in the middle east.
Fact despotic leadership exist around the world. Including some of our largest trading partners. If we were concerned about freeing people to live in a democratic society, we would need to invade most of the middle east, much of Africa, Asia, and the Indian subcontinent, and parts of Latin and South America.
Fact, many parts of the world are in far worse shape, sad to say, then Iraq. Or at least were pre-invasion. Most of northern Africa, with the exception of Egypt is a mess. Southeast Asia, has improved as the standard of living has increased, but china is still guilty of egerious human rights abuse, and Familial dictatorships are in place in North Korea, and elsewhere.
I think if you take a long look at the wmd excuse, or the freeing Iraqi’s excuse it does not live up.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:51 pm[...] After some 3,149 Iraqis were killed in June alone and 20,000 citizens of Baghdad — mostly the last tattered remains of the middle class — were driven out by militias during the last ten days of July, Chimpoleon takes stock of the situation: BUSH: My attitude is that a young democracy has been born quite quickly…. Which gives me confidence about the future in Iraq, by the way. You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that. The Iraqi people decided against civil war when they went to the ballot box. And a unity government is working to respond to the will of the people. And, frankly, it’s quite a remarkable achievement on the political front. [...]
August 7th, 2006 at 4:53 pmLives, limbs, time, creditbility, integrity and money wasted on Iraq. I hope everyone remembers why we went to Iraq. So one man could present his father a “look what I did daddy”. How long do we have to wait before someone stands up and claims the “the president is naked”. American media is so pathetic because they are so afraid to be called anti-american. I guess part of being an american is to be a giant “chickenshit”.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:54 pmSo, I go to New York and come back to find the trolls lying and getting their asses handed to them.
Then I go to Montanna and come back to find the trolls getting raped here.
I just got back from Texas to find these same trolls lying and getting whipped.
Will they ever learn? I don’t think so. They are slightly retarded, so they can’t learn anything. All they can do is formulate an illogical opinion based on the shit they see on Fox TV. I am happy to report that in my three trips over the past two months, I cannot seem to find anybody that does like Bush or any of these other NeoCons. Fret not my fellow progs. These trolls are only here to distract you from what the truth is.
The truth is that the republican party is washed up.
I just got back from Bush’s home state and there ain’t anybody there that likes him either.
All progs can be happy with this truth. I know I feel very content right about not.
Peace!
August 7th, 2006 at 4:54 pmWho cares what bush says anymore. The polls show that America is waking up from it’s conservative hangover, saying “did what? elected who? ” The adults will take over the Congress in about 90 days and we will hopefully have checks and balances again. No body is going to impeach bush because no one is stupid enought to want cheney.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:57 pmI sometimes (but not always) feel like pulling a Bobby Kennedy and reversing myself on a war I initially supported.
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 4:39 pm
I don’t understand Bush supporters. When, in hinsight, it is clear a wrong decision has been made, there needs to be a) an admission of error and b) a correction of course.
There is no shame in admitting one was wrong. You are clearly close to a). Be an adult, admit the invasion was a mistake (in fact, an enormous mistake), and be on the correct side of the issue.
If what scares you is that you might become a “liberal” -rest assured. You will join the ranks of the Republicans who are already backpedaling on their support for the occupation.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:59 pmBut Krazy the U.S. has fought in or supported numerous democratic movements in many places over the years. Debate the wisodom of them all you want, but I don’t think anyone can claim the U.S. fought in Korea or Vietnam for access to natural resources…You mention Latin and South America. Sure, and the U.S. did support democratic movements there throughout the 1980s.
And I think you somewhat underestimate the horror of Iraq under Saddam Hussein’s regime. John Burns of The New York Times, who spent many years in Iraq, has often said that yes, while there are many horrible regimes in the world, Saddam Hussein’s Iraq was a uniquely nightmarish state, where people lived in a perpetual state of fear. I think one can make convincing arguments in opposition to the Iraq War without having to resort to soft-pedaling the horror of Saddam Hussein’s regime.
August 7th, 2006 at 4:59 pmI just got back from Bush’s home state and there ain’t anybody there that likes him either.
Comment by Spudge_Boy — August 7, 2006 @ 4:54 pm
I live in a rural suburb of Atlanta and work in an even more rural one. Today, at lunch, one of the teachers slammed the Republicans in general, and then another slammed Bush specifically before everyone was complaining about him. And then they started talking about the Bible chapter Revelations and how the fighting in the Middle East was a sign of the apocalypse – and I made an excuse to leave because I just couldn’t feign any level of interest in that subject…
You know it’s gotta be bad for Bush when seriously religious people in a very red state start slamming him in the open.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:04 pmAnd, just to make one more point, Krazny….Even when it is absolutely obvious that a nation did not go to war for natural resources, as is the case when the U.S. went into Afghanistan — a country with zero natural resources — after 9/11, you will STILL hear from conspiracy nuts that believe the war was about oil. “But Afghanistan has no oil,” you say. Correct. But the conspiracy theorists claim that we went to war in Afghanistan in order to build an oil pipeline through that country!
My point is that it is very easy always to look for the hidden “greedy” and nefarious reasons that a nation supposedly undertakes a military action, but most time those are just the fantastic concoctions of those who have their own agenda for opposing the military action.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:11 pmVote for Lamont. Lieberman is no longer a democrat he is by his own actions a bush backer and by his own words a future independent……..
August 7th, 2006 at 5:13 pmExley, I was writing a reply but it got eaten by the world wide web. No afghanistan, as in bosnia was not about resources. the only they have in abudance, seems to be angry fundamentalist, and opium.
The US has supported democracies around the world, they have also supported dictators, such as the Shah of Iran, then for a time Saddam Hussien. Don’t forget our friend Ferdinand Marcos, or Augustus Pinochet. the US has a pretty mixed bag when it comes to supporting people world wide. Even Perrez Musharaf from all accounts is not exactly a fantastic guy.
I don’t know enough about what saddam did or didn’t do during his tenor as tyrant. He may have been worse then most. There are others just as bad. China has re-education camps and forced abortions, North Korea, well do you really want to discuss that? Kim Jong-Il is far more of a whack job the saddam in my humble opinion.
I am not one of those who believes that the world trade center was an inside job, so I have that going for me. I however see a push in Iraq, to control the oil resources. I think we will have to agree to disagree on this point.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:20 pmJuan C, Your formulation indicates that you believe the Iraqi people were happy under Saddam’s rule. Is that your position?
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 4:42 pm
I think it was clear that my position was that Iraqis should have stood up by themselves. You know what sovereignity is, dont you?
August 7th, 2006 at 5:25 pm#266…Ummm, are you joking? Not only is that not a posting made in response to me, but rather a response to “Mighty Aphrodite,” but are you actually hanging your hat on two links you sent around to try and prove your rather bizarre contention that Palestinians are, in reality, Jews and not Arabs?
Ooooooooooookay…..
Look, try again, junior. Try and find a posting where you provided me any factual citations when we are discussing a topic. Your bizarre rants aimed Mighty Aphrodite and others don’t concern me.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:30 pmTry and find a posting where you provided me any factual citations when we are discussing a topic. Your bizarre rants aimed Mighty Aphrodite and others don’t concern me.
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 5:30 pm
Buddy, you should be the one looking for posts; you know, reading and educating yourself.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:34 pmKrazny,
China: I am opposed to our relationsip with China. And I certainly opposed granting China most favored nation trade status.
North Korea: I also agree with you that North Korea is nightmarish regime. That is why the United States lost over 50,000 soldiers between 1950-53 preventing communist North Korea from expaning its grip on the Korean peninsula and why more than 50 years later there are still thousands of American troops stationed there.
And I freely admit the U.S. has supported some unsavory regimes in the past–Sometimes for legitimate reasons, sometimes not. I have never made the claim the United States has a perfect historical record. The U.S.. like all nations, has made missteps and errors. And often we have paid the price for those errors. I think Iran is the prime example of that.
And, yes, I guess we will have to agree to disagree about the reasons for the invasion of Iraq.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:36 pmAnd I freely admit the U.S. has supported some unsavory regimes in the past–Sometimes for legitimate reasons, sometimes not
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 5:36 pm
I am looking so much for this: Please, post those legitimate supports.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:42 pm#273 —
Providing military, economic, and humanitaria aid to the Soviet Union in World War II.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:44 pmI have a feeling, that the US is tied far to closely economically with China, to ever revoke the most favored trade status. Exley I do appreciate, that you are willing to read and speak with me in a civil tone. Realize, I don’t hate america. When we do support a true friend, like North Korea, I like what the US does. When we support true democracies, and support the freedom, that the US fought for, then I am enjoy being an American. I dislike some of the decision that have been made, and I am unafraid to say so.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:45 pmwhen they did try to rebel against Saddam and were mercilessly crushed)?
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 5:41 pm
1) No one enjoys living under a murderous regime, Exley. Not even you.
2) Probably they did. I wonder who sold those weapons that Saddam used against them.
The real question here: Why US supported once Saddam (when he killed thousands of Iranians and US was ok with that) and now decides he is evil? If you answer out of emotion, like: US is the greatest country in the world, you will be discredited. Please, tell me how that logic works in your mind: once a murderer but OK, now a murderer and not OK.
And I defend whoever I want to.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:48 pmProviding military, economic, and humanitaria aid to the Soviet Union in World War II.
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 5:44 pm
Buddy, get a book…fast. US and Great Britain favored the rise of HItler who posed a threat to spreading soviet ideology. The russians won the war by themselves. In fact, US dropped the nuke over Nagasaki after the russians conquered Manchuria where a 1,200,000 japanese army was defeated. US was afraid.
August 7th, 2006 at 5:53 pmtime to have a military coup in america. the dumbass Dubya has riled and ruined the men in uniform….time for them to seek justice
August 7th, 2006 at 5:56 pmJuan, the US and britian never favored the rise of hitler. I am unsure where you got that opinion. Remember hitler had conqured most of mainland europe, and was bombarding great britian. The US joined in to prevent a facist state in Europe, and there, and in the Pacific. I am unsure about a japanese defeat in manchuria, since I think Russia and Japan had a non aggression pact after the russo-japanese war. At best I think the soviets offered shelter to any pilots forced to land in soviet territory, and use of naval bases.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:00 pmActually, Juan C, you are incorrect. The vast bulk of the Iraqi army’s military equipment was supplied by the Soviet Union, with some also coming from France. You may not be aware of this, but Iraq was a Soviet client state until the mid-1980s. Any military assistance in terms of equipment that Iraq received from the U.S. in the 1980s was minimal.
And, Juan C, often nations are faced with allying themselves with unsavory regimes when the more immediate threat comes from another unsavory regime. As you may or may not know (and you seem unaware of this), the U.S., France, and Great Britain were allied with Josef Stalin and the USSR in World War II. Now, I don’t think anyone here would suggest that Stalin’s USSR was anything other than a mass murdering regime. But the immediate threat in the 1940s was Adolph Hitler and Nazi Germany. Thus, the Allies were forced to hold their proverbial noses and work with a monster like Stalin to stop the more immediate threat of Hitler. Once WWII was over and the threat of Nazism destroyed, the U.S. and the West took up a position of hostility and defense against the communist USSR because it now represented the greatest and most immediate threat.
The analogy to the 1980s Iran/Iraq War is clear. Both were repugnant regimes. But the immediate threat was the spread of Iranian-sponsored Islamic fundamentalism throughout the Gulf region and Arab world. Thus, even though the U.S. was fully aware of Saddam’s status as a murderous dictator, it was compelled by the immediacy and magnitude of the Iranian Islamist threat to tilt towards Iraq (as we did with Stalin against Hitler). Once that threat had receded, the U.S. withdrew its tilt towards Saddam and treated him like the threat he was.
As I said, the historical analogy is clear and I am happy to share it with you.
And, yes, you certainly are free to defend whomever you wish. I just thought you should know that it makes the person you are trying to defend look rather weak.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:02 pmI SUPPORT GEORGE BUSH! KILL EM ALL! TURN THAT PLACE INTO GLASS! NUKE EM ALL, LET GOD SORT EM OUT!!!
August 7th, 2006 at 6:02 pmOne point I would like to make Exley, is that support for Saddam weakening Iran was in the interests of Washington, but outright control of Iran was denied to Saddam. My understanding, was part of the Iran-Contra affair was to funnel weapons to Iran to prevent Saddam from victory.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:06 pmJuan, the US and britian never favored the rise of hitler.
Comment by Krazny — August 7, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
I know it sounds shocking but…just an example.
Hearst, who was so concerned about the American public’s health and
August 7th, 2006 at 6:08 pmsafety on the matter of marijuana use, apparently had no such fears when it
came to Hitler and the Nazis. According to journalist George Seldes:
“. . . Hitler had the support of the most widely circulated magazine in history,
“Readers Digest,” as well as nineteen big-city newspapers and one of the three
great American news agencies, the $220-million Hearst press empire.
“. . . William Randolph Hearst, Sr., . . . was the lord of all the press lords in the
United States. The millions who read the Hearst newspapers and magazines
and saw Hearst newsreels in the nation’s moviehouses had their minds
poisoned by Hitler propaganda.
“It was . . . disclosed first to President Roosevelt [by Ambassador Dodd] almost
on the day it happened, in September 1934, and it is detailed in the book
“Ambassador Dodd’s Diary,” published in 1941, and again in libel-proof
documents on file in the courts of the state of New York. William E. Dodd,
professor of history [at the University of Chicago], told me about the Hearst
sell-out . . .
“According to Ambassador Dodd, Hearst came to take the waters at Bad
Nauheim in September 1934, and Dodd somehow learned immediately that
Hitler had sent two of his most trusted Nazi propagandists, Hanfstangel and
Rosenberg, to ask Hearst how Nazism could present a better image in the
United States. When Hearst went to Berlin later in the month, he was taken to
see Hitler.”
Seldes reports that a $400,000 a year deal was struck between Hearst and
Hitler, and signed by Doctor Joseph Goebbels, the Nazi propaganda minister.
“Hearst,” continues Seldes, “completely changed the editorial policy of his
nineteen daily newspapers the same month he got the money.”
In the court documents filed on behalf of Dan Gillmor, publisher of a magazine
named “Friday,” in response to a lawsuit by Hearst, under item 61, he states:
“Promptly after this said visit with Adolf Hitler and the making of said
arrangements. . . said plaintiff, William Randolph Hearst, instructed all Hearst
press correspondents in Germany, including those of INS [Hearst's
International News Service] to report happenings in Germany only in a
‘friendly’ manner. All of such correspondents reporting happenings in Germany
accurately and without friendliness, sympathy and bias for the actions of the
then German government, were transferred elsewhere, discharged, or forced to
resign. . . .”
In the late 1930s, Seldes recounts, when “several sedition indictments [were
brought by] the Department of Justice . . . against a score or two of Americans,
the defendants included an unusually large minority of newspaper men and
women, most of them Hearst employees.” (2)
#281
Feeding the Bear: American Aid to the Soviet Union, 1941-1945 (Contributions in Military Studies) (Hardcover)
Review
August 7th, 2006 at 6:09 pm“Works concerning US aid to the Soviet Union during WW II have tended to focus more on its diplomatic repercussions rather than on its impact on the battlefield. For example, George Herring’s Aid to Russia 1941-1946; Strategy Diplomacy and the Origins of the Cold War, as its subtitle implies, dealt with the aid question primarily in terms of its effect on events leading up to 1947. Van Tuyll has produced a well-written monograph attempting to measure American aid as it influenced military events. Although he claims that US aid certainly guaranteed an earlier Soviet triumph over Germany, it was not decisive in bringing about victory. This he credits to the Soviet production effort, although he concedes that Allied shipments of precious commodities such as aviation fuel and equipment such as aircraft and trucks helped fill important gaps in Russia’s war effort. He concludes, `The Soviet Union most likely would have survived without Lend Lease . . . but the war would have been much longer, the alliance less firm and the victory less complete.’ A good contribution to the literature. Recommended to any student of the history of WW II.â€â€“Choice
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/product-description/0313266883/ref=dp_proddesc_0/104-2143127-2943127?ie=UTF8&n=283155&s=books
That is all very interesting Juan, but it does not prove that the US, or GB wanted to help Hitler.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:09 pmJuan, the US and britian never favored the rise of hitler.
Comment by Krazny — August 7, 2006 @ 6:00 pm
I have to say I agree with Krazny. The worst that can be said about the US is that they were indifferent to the struggle between Nazi Germany and the USSR but I don’t think any government favored Hitler’s rise to power.
Same can be said about the UK -the last thing the British needed was a unified Europe under the rule of a single dictator.
I was unsure of the exact date of the Manchuria Soviet offensive so I had to look it up: The offensive was launched after the first atomic bomb was dropped on Nagasaki.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:11 pmI seem to recall humanitarian aid, (grain) going to the USSR during the cold war as well.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:12 pm#241 – “Palestinians are jews who converted to Christianity and/or Islam” – bLIAR
******No, Palestinians and Arabs descended from the Ishmael wing of the family Abraham, the Assyrians, etc. The Jews are from the Isaac wing – and there are different twigs on that tree. (The more you say it does not make it MORE true.)
August 7th, 2006 at 6:13 pmIf I remember by history correctly, the USSR didn’t get involved in most of the Pacific fighting until very close to the end of the war.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:13 pmExley…yes, you are correct! No one here defends Stalin.
Krazny:
ADOLF HITLER
August 7th, 2006 at 6:14 pmChancellor of Germany
As German bombs fell on London and Nazi tanks rolled over US troops, Sosthenes Behn president and founder of the US based ITT corporation, met with his German representative to discuss improving German communication systems. ITT was designing and building Nazi phone and radio systems as well as supplying crucial parts for German bombs. Our government knew all about this, for under a presidential order, US companies were licensed to trade with the Nazis. The choice of who would be licensed was odd, though. While the Secretary of State gave the Ford Motor Company permission to make Nazi tanks, he simultaneously blocked aid to German-Jewish refugees because the US wasn’t supposed to be trading with the enemy. Other US companies trading with the Third Reich were General Motors, DuPont, Standard Oil of New Jersey, Davis Oil Co., and the Chase National Bank. President Roosevelt did not stop them, fearing a scandal might lead to another stock market crash or lower US moral. Besides, the same companies that traded with Hitler were supplying the US with its armaments, and some corporate leaders threatened to withdraw their support if Roosevelt exposed them. Henry Ford was a good friend of Hitler’s. His book — The International Jew — had Inspired Hltler’s Mein Kampf. The Fuhrer kept Ford’s picture in his office, and Ford was one of only four foreigners to receive Germany’s highest civilian award. As for Sosthenes Behn, at the end of the war, he received the highest civilian award for service to his country — the United States of America
Juan C, How does your posting #289 prove your allegation that the U.S. government supported the rise of Nazism? Yor provide info that some private citizens in the U.S. may have done so, but nothing in your posting shows the government did so…Indeed, your posting contradicts your statement by showing that the U.S. Justice Department indicted and prosecuted such Nazi sympathizers for sediton.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:16 pmJuan
while this shows support for hitler from a corporation front, it does not show support from the US government. I hardly think they US or GB would have fought Rommel in Africa, or on the shores of normandy, if they supported hitler. This will sound terrible, but up until war was declared, it was within the rights of US companies to sell products to germany.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:18 pm#287 Krazny: “One point I would like to make Exley, is that support for Saddam weakening Iran was in the interests of Washington, but outright control of Iran was denied to Saddam. My understanding, was part of the Iran-Contra affair was to funnel weapons to Iran to prevent Saddam from victory.
Comment by Krazny — August 7, 2006 @ 6:06 pm”
Absolutely, Krazny…The U.S. was fully engaged in realpolitik in the Gulf in the 1980s. I don’t deny that for a moment.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:19 pmJuan C,
You are correct when you say that a few American private companies traded (some even happily) with Hitler’s regime.
It’s a whole other order of magnitude when you claim the US government officially supported the Nazi rise and subsequent rule.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:20 pmMaybe you are right, fellas. But, sincerely, just one question: Who run countries? Governments or companies?
August 7th, 2006 at 6:22 pmJuan C…Agreed. It is much more enjoyable to debate these topics in a civil (dare I say “friendly?”) way.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:24 pmI SUPPORT GEORGE BUSH! KILL THESE GODLESS SON’S A BITCHES!
August 7th, 2006 at 6:25 pm#45 Sharon Cox: His IQ is -110. He makes a complete idiot from a mental instution seem like Einstein.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:26 pmWho run countries? Governments or companies?
Comment by Juan C — August 7, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
Given the framing, I feel this is a trick question.
Regardless of who runs the country, your contention was that the US and UK governments favored the rise of Hitler because private companies traded with his regime.
Keep in mind your alegation is also true about almost every other country in Europe -until they entered the fray. Except for Switzerland: They were not invaded and Swiss banks kept financing the Nazi war machine until the very end.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:34 pm******”Thank goodness that our friends and allies did not desert us in our civil war”.-Comment by Mighty Aphrodite- August 4, 2006.
August 7th, 2006 at 6:57 pm
To the aptly named HO – answer a “member” of the NVA? Didn’t then – wouldn’t now.
August 7th, 2006 at 7:10 pm#1 onthefence: No surprise here. It was W.’s hero Reagan who said “facts are stupid things”.
August 7th, 2006 at 8:11 pm#311 because Ho cleaned your clock, MA.
August 7th, 2006 at 8:28 pmHere’s a question the So-Called-Liberal-US-Media has not even begun to address, even with 20 correspondents splattered all over the Levant (well if you can’t drive safely outside the Green Zone in Baghdad, you have to report something form somewhere).
Last year, the Lebanon was egged on by Chimpy and his Organ-Grinders to eject the Syrians and install democratic rule and respect for the law…why then, if the flowering of democracy in the ME is Chimpy’s goal, does he allow Israel to destabilize it? You can watch Lebanese and world public opinion harden every day against the US stance (shipping bombs and dollars to Israel while accusing Syria and Iran of soing the same to Hizbollah). Gave up pretty soon on backing that Lebanese democracy, eh Chimpy? Could it be that Chimpy does not really believe in democracy after all?
Say it aint so….
August 7th, 2006 at 8:34 pm#307 – Sharon Cox: His IQ is -110. He makes a complete idiot from a mental instution seem like Einstein.
Comment by Ho Chi Minh
That much, huh? Never would have known, really…
August 7th, 2006 at 8:42 pmGO BUSH! BOMB IRAQ BOMB IRAN BOMB SYRIA BOMB LEBANON! NUKE THESE SONSABITCHES! TURN IT INTO A PARKINGLOT!
August 7th, 2006 at 9:06 pm[...] Many of us have known for the past 6 years that the guy’s completely out of touch, but this is simply astonishing: You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that. The Iraqi people decided against civil war when they went to the ballot box. [...]
August 7th, 2006 at 9:08 pm[...] Not long ago, in a parallel universe not far away, President Bush stamped his little feet and said: “You know, I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that. The Iraqi people decided against civil war when they went to the ballot box.†[...]
August 7th, 2006 at 9:11 pmYou are correct when you say that a few American private companies traded (some even happily) with Hitler’s regime.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — August 7, 2006 @ 6:20 pm
Few probably…but the strongest:
Coca-Cola, DU PONT AND GENERAL MOTORS, STANDARD OIL OF NEW JERSEY (Now Exxon), THE FORD MOTOR COMPANY, INTERNATIONAL TELEPHONE AND TELEGRAPH, Also…Bush´s Grandfather
I know I am being annoying, but I really read it in a politics book.
August 7th, 2006 at 9:27 pmMethinks Kill Em All has OD on Rambo movies.
August 7th, 2006 at 9:43 pm“In essence, Lend-Lease was a way to give the British planes, tanks, guns, artillery, ammunition without them really paying for it. And Roosevelt calls it Lend-Lease. And reporters at a press conference ask him, what does this mean? What does Lend-Lease mean? Well essentially what it meant was we were simply giving them the supplies and they were going to use it to defend themselves and Roosevelt felt it was in defense of the United States.
But Roosevelt invokes a marvelous homily. He says, well you know it’s like you have a neighbor whose house is on fire. And the neighbor comes running to you and shouts over the garden fence, “Neighbor, neighbor, my house is on fire, help me out, lend me your garden hose.” Well of course you’re a good neighbor, you lend the garden hose to your neighbor and he puts out the fire and then he gives you the hose back.
Well of course it was patent nonsense. What were the British going to do, give us the tanks back that were blown up, the planes that were shot down, the ships that were sunk? I mean there was no way they were going to be able to resupply us or return this materiel to us. But Roosevelt’s invocation of this homily about the neighbor and the garden hose is a wonderful way for him to sell it to the public and that was his political genius. That was something that he had a kind of sixth sense for. You can’t understand it, you can’t define it, you can’t put it under any scientific rubric, it simply was something that the man had as a brilliant politician in the United States.”
Robert Dallek
August 7th, 2006 at 9:45 pmAmerican Experience – The Presidents
Mighty Moron: It figures that you don’t have the balls to admit that not only you are wrong, but making shit up. Rather than own up to it like a man, you avoid answering.
August 7th, 2006 at 9:53 pm
[...] Worst. President. Ever. [...]
August 7th, 2006 at 9:55 pm“I hear people say, Well, civil war this, civil war that”
Another defining moment in the Chimpy Presidency.
His Presidential Library will be the first to have a children’s section…of books that belong to him.
August 7th, 2006 at 9:58 pmIt’s really strange there is such a disconnect between the Left and the Right, we the Left can obvoiusly see this guy is a Psychopathic Liar, yet some people – actually about 40% of the population of America – follow and repeat everything this Adminstration says, word for word, and see nothing wrong. It’s pretty frightening. Is the 40% the slowly dying mental illness/delusional/Psychopathic/Anti-Social Personality Disorder/nearly mentally retarded part of America?
August 7th, 2006 at 10:11 pmI guess W thinks the purple finger will save the middle-east. There’s a few exceptions, however. Iraq (doesn’t look too good). Lebanon (they should have asked Isreal before they elected Hezbollah). The Palestenians (they should have asked Isreal before they elected Hamas and everyone knows Gaza is nothing more than a penal colony operated by Isreal. The white man’s burden is hell.
August 7th, 2006 at 10:15 pmApparently, Syria and Iran are being tempted to plainly join Hexbolah in an all-out war with the “Zionists”. Then we’ll get to hear from Georgie’s lips, “Oh, it was just a couple of a-bombs. A few megatons here, a few megatons there.”
August 7th, 2006 at 10:23 pmFair nuff, but it’s just the excuse for Georgie to launch whatever the hell he wants.
August 7th, 2006 at 10:39 pm#322 – Zooey,
August 7th, 2006 at 10:57 pmThere was a psy study a few months back that placed W’s IQ at 91. I’ll try to find it tomorrow. Time for my beauty rest – boy do I need it!
#342 hey Emporer, the ‘white man’s burden is hell’ is a quote. Rudyard Kipling. ‘Dhimmi Muslim Lover’ – meaning you take an opposite position – Muslim hater? A bit of a broad opinion, Emporer, eh?
#345 – well there you have it – advocating nuclear war and the deaths of millions. I guess that makes you a nasty piece of work, Emporer. Anything else you wnat to share with us today? Wishing for genocide? Anyone we know?
August 7th, 2006 at 11:51 pmIFN YOU AINT WHITE CHRISTIAN GOD FEARING AMERICAN YOU AINT GOING TO HEAVEN SO BURN IN HELL YOU COMMIE BASTARDS! BUSH IS A TRUE AMERICAN PATRIOT LEADING AMERICA TO SALVATION! LET THESE JEWS AND ARABS KILL EACHOTHER OFF AS GOD INTENDED. AMEN! GOD BLESS AMERICA AND GEORGE BUSH!
August 8th, 2006 at 12:07 am#347 – WalttheMan,
Zooey,
There was a psy study a few months back that placed W’s IQ at 91. I’ll try to find it tomorrow. Time for my beauty rest – boy do I need it!
Comment by WaltTheMan
I heard that was a hoax or a parody. Trouble is, people really didn’t have a hard time believing it. Oops…
August 8th, 2006 at 12:09 am#351 – so who thinks ‘Kill em all’ is a parody and who thinks he/she is real? I’m going with parody… she/he’s pretty funny.
August 8th, 2006 at 12:51 amReading Monkey’s comments just ruins my day. Tell me this is a dream and we’ll wake up from it.
August 8th, 2006 at 12:52 amAll the talk about the possibility of civil war in Iraq leaves me speechless. What the hell do they think they have been witnessing for the past two years?
August 8th, 2006 at 1:06 amthe irony behind #351 is that the quote is from the French general, later saint, who violently suppressed the Albigensian Heresy in Marseille in the early 13th century. This little massacre of Christians by Christians prompted one soldier to ask his general how to recognize the faithful from the heretic: “Tuez les tous, le Dieu reconnaitre la sienne.”
Who was the British diplomat who wondered why the president of Isreal and the President of Egypt couldn’t “just do the Christian thing?”
August 8th, 2006 at 2:01 amSharon cox: I don’t know what the ranges are offhand, but google IQ scores and it will explain.
August 8th, 2006 at 7:35 amThank You again Ho Chi Min…I will do that…..Blessings
August 8th, 2006 at 8:58 amLend-Lease
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
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This article is about the World War II programme. For the Australian corporation, see Lend Lease Corporation.
Lend-Lease was a major United States program 1940-1945 which enabled the United States to provide Britain, Russia, China and other Allied nations with vast amounts of war material (matériel). Unlike the loans of World War I, the transfers were gifts that were not to be repaid. It began in March 1941, nine months before the US officially entered the war in December of 1941. Lend-Lease came on the heels of Cash and Carry, following correspondence between Winston Churchill and Franklin Roosevelt on the economic status of Britain and their inability to pay for and transport materials as they once did. It ended soon after V-J Day, on September 2, 1945. This program was the first large step away from American isolationism and towards international involvement since the end of WWI.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lend-Lease
August 8th, 2006 at 9:25 am#85
August 8th, 2006 at 10:15 amBlueDog, you have made yet another error when you wrote, “You’re both wrong about Lieberman …†I have taken no position on Lieberman v. Lamont. I could not care less who wins. In fact, I must say I take a certain amount of enjoyment out of seeing the Democratic Party tear at eachother like this. A divided Democratic Party is good for my side.
“Your Side”???? That is the problem with the Conservative movement. This isn’t our lives and livelyhoods on the line, it is a competition. I assumed that we are all Americans and are on the same side. Oops, my bad.
Thank you, Mighty Aphrodite….It’s what I do.
August 8th, 2006 at 10:29 amMost of those “so-called” Iraqi votes were from the US, from “muslims with dual citizenship” arranged by Bushco and shipped to Iraq.
August 8th, 2006 at 11:26 am[...] Clueless! By sdmoderate Has any statement that has ever come out of President Bush’s mouth been more ridiculous than what he said in a press conference yesterday in regards to a civil war in Iraq? (highlighting mine) BUSH: My attitude is that a young democracy has been born quite quickly. And I think the Iraqi government has shown remarkable progress on the political front. And that is is that they developed a modern constitution that was ratified by the people and then 12 million people voted for a government. [...]
August 8th, 2006 at 11:44 amYes america..the king cant see he’s wearing no clothes.
August 8th, 2006 at 2:38 pm[...] Remarks: When George Bush said yesterday that he hears about “civil war this, civil war that,” for some reason the song “Nothin’ but a G Thang” kept going through my head. (NOTE: I’ll post a sample later for those who don’t know the song, but you can hear the original at iTunes — sorry, no direct link.) [...]
August 8th, 2006 at 9:46 pm[...] En inglés [...]
August 8th, 2006 at 11:24 pm[...] In the last week alone, those warning of a civil war in Iraq include: America’s top commander in Iraq, Gen. George Casey; Joint Chiefs of Staff chairman Peter Pace, Centcom commander Gen. John Abizaid; and Britain’s ambassador to Iraq. But what does Bush hear? ’yadda yadda yadda. [...]
August 9th, 2006 at 2:02 amPlus, while I am pessimistic (as pessimistic as I have ever been), a small part of me still hopes that the Iraqi people will seize this historic opportunity, put aside their petty religious and ethnic feuds, and create a sustainable, peaceful, civilized democratic society….That admittedly seems less and less likely with each passing day, but a glimmer of hope remains.
Comment by exley — August 7, 2006 @ 12:59 pm
The part of your comment that I bolded is EXACTLY why this administration made the horrendous mistake of deciding to invade Iraq in the first place. These religious and ethnic “feuds” are hardly petty, but are the foundation of the history and culture of that entire region for over 2,000 years. The utter arrogance of a country which is only a little over 200 years old, while ignoring the experiences of the Europeans and the Russians in that region for many decades, to believe we could bring “democracy” and the “American way of life” ..and in fact had such a right to do so…has borne some bitter fruits for all involved. And the bottom line is this: if that region didn’t have either oil or were geographically positive for laying oil pipeline down from oil-producing areas, neither the U.S., Europe or Russia (or China) would give a damn about what happened there.
August 9th, 2006 at 1:24 pm# 122 – Blue Dog…WOW…I’ve never heard the failures of this President expressed more clearly! Excellent!
August 9th, 2006 at 1:48 pm“These religious and ethnic “feuds†are hardly petty, but are the foundation of the history and culture of that entire region for over 2,000 years. “
Are you arguing that the Arab Middle East has an irredeemable culture of violence? Moroever, are you arguing that these ethnic feuds somehow justify the sectarian violence between the Iraqis?
August 9th, 2006 at 8:16 pm