U.N. deal reached on Mideast crisis.
By on Aug 11th, 2006 at 2:19 pm
U.N. deal reached on Mideast crisis.
“France and the United States reached agreement on Friday on a draft resolution aimed at halting the bloodshed in Lebanon and Israel.” A Security Council vote is expected later today.
UPDATE: Israel launches ground offensive: “Israel began an expanded ground offensive today in southern Lebanon after expressing dissatisfaction over an emerging cease-fire deal, government officials said.”
UPDATE II: The U.N. Human Rights Council on Friday condemned Israel for “massive bombardment of Lebanese civilian populations” and “systematic” human rights violations, and decided to send a commission to investigate. The resolution contained no mention of Hezbollah.
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the evil blood-thirsty olmert crime family will ignore any resolution that attempts to suspend their killing of lebanese children and pregnant mothers.
only the complete genocide of lebanon will quelch their sick, twist, thirst for the blood of the innocent...
August 11th, 2006 at 2:31 pmThats a nice way to express dissatisfaction.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:36 pmYeah Olmert already said no to the deal, Condi is reduced to calling Olmert and begging. Maybe giving them an inch to beging with has allowed them to take a mile.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:40 pmNow comes the moment of truth. The US is behind a cease fire it had hands in creating. Are they going to enforce it and hold Isreal accountable for not observing the terms? Or will they let Isreal continue it's aggression>
Best believe that in the coming week, the administration will finally show it's true colors to the world.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:46 pmI feel for the kids. On both sides of the fight. Many civilians dead, a travesty. The difference, however, is that the IDF is trying (though not to everyone's satisfaction) to actually target Hiz/Iranian soldiers and weapons, while Hiz/Iran is ONLY sttempting to hit civilians. I continue to believe that the ground incursion will actually do wonders in reducing Lebanese civilain deaths. Though it would certainly help if Hiz actually stopped wearing on civivlian cloths and hiding thier weapons in peoples houses and heavily populated civilian areas.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:49 pmIsrael wants NO ceasefire > they want to slaughter more Lebanese children I suppose > shame on PM Olmert and may his carcus rot in Hell for all eternity!
August 11th, 2006 at 2:52 pmI'm betting $2.2 billion in annual military aid to Israel (that's currently falling on Lebanon) that we're not going to change what we're doing at all. If we win, then Israel goes to war with the army it has, not the army that it wants or may have at a later time. If we lose, then Israel can blow up twice as much stuff and cause the end of the world all the faster.
The question I'm still afraid to ask, though -- will Israel demonstrate that it's got nukes before this is all over?
August 11th, 2006 at 2:54 pmOK. For all of you who believe that Israel is doing their best to only attack Hizbollah positions, read this ...
What an Attack on Hizbollah Actually Looks Like
This shows you the difference and the indifference of Israel to the people of Lebanon.
August 11th, 2006 at 2:57 pmBreaking News: Chili and Bulgaria agreed on a UN Resolution to halt the violence in the Middle East. The United States is ordered to remove all troops from Iraq and cease stealing Iraqi oil.
Yea, Right! And Uncle Dick will get right on the oil and Rummy will get on the troops and Dummy will order another bowl of Chili, Texas style.
It is the old do as I say, not as I do argument. Always eager to divide up someone else's candy but never share mine!
August 11th, 2006 at 2:58 pmKevin, I read the Kos piece, I like Kos and he seems like a good guy with decent views, but what you fail to grasp is that using only limited "proportional" response, Hezbollah continues to do the same goddamn thing every few months. Isreali intelligence may be good, but it has no way of knowing where all the Hez/Iranian sites are. Just in the past 3-5 years, Iran has provided about 15,000 missles to Hezbollah to hide in Lebanon. The "proportional" response cant find those sites, nor could they attack them even if they knew where they are because it would be disproportional, under your view. The way to stop having these series of pissy kidnappings/response/kidnapping/response is to clean out Hezbollah. It is rare that I advocate violence, and Iraq continues to be a mess and wrong war, but it is about time Isreal did what they are doing. The civilian deaths are tragic to be sure, but I am not sure how they can be avoided with such an enemy. The weapons are hidden in hospitals, schools and homes. The 'soldiers" refuse to dress like soldiers and hide behinfd the women and children. Oh, and I almost forgot, peace can not be achieved with an enemy that has repeatedly, since the beginning of time, sworn to destroy every Jew on the planet and since the formation of Isreal sworn to destroy Israel. How do you trust a ceasefire with an enemy that has sworn to destroy you no matter what?
August 11th, 2006 at 3:08 pm“Israel began an expanded ground offensive today in southern Lebanon after expressing dissatisfaction over an emerging cease-fire deal, government officials said.â€
What kind of childish behavior is that? Well it would be childish of people weren't being killed....let's say its....pathological.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:08 pmSome 40 years ago or so Israel adopted a motto that worked well in the corresponding period in American History. "Don't tread on me." That, to me, says only one thing: don't mess with the bull or you will get the horn. So be it! It seems to me that most people here look only to the effect and not the cause. You conveniently overlook the fact that there are Israeli women and children affected in this war. What the hell do you expect? War is not unilateral. A unilateral attack on an unarmed Country is an invasion not a war--the US invasion of Iraq for instance. War is bilateral. War is killing. War shows no favoritism in regards to sex or age. Warriors may be merciful individually, but war does not, by definition, show mercy. If there were mercy there would be no war. Let us clean up our own house (Senate and White as well) before we condemn others for doing just as we are doing.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:10 pmIsrael is playing with fire. BubbleHead wont be able help them when the entire Arab population bands together to fight this religious war. The Arabs will win, they fight for their religion harder than even the christian extremists.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:11 pmSo whats going on with Palestine?
I thought Israel hated them the most?
August 11th, 2006 at 3:16 pmSuzy Q - Isreal looks forward to that war with Arab states. Most of the world does, because those states want to take us back in time. As a woman, I would think you may not like that; you know, the having to share a man with 10 other wives and wearing the burka. Not so liberating. And forget driving and voting and going anywhere without a chaperone. If ther is an all-out war with the Arab states, not only will you be praying the Isrealis win but the Isrealis will actually win.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:18 pm#13 Suzy Q
The Arabs haven't won in over 2000 years and particularly in the last 40. I think that a thorough examination of history will show that the Arabs do not fight for their own religion--just look at the Muslim Civil Religious War in Iraq. They fight AGAINST other religions. There is a significant difference and one that guarantees an Israeli victory.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:19 pmA cease fire agreement should have been done during the first few days of the firing. By letting it go on and destroying large parts of Lebanon while killing, injuring or displacing who knows how many Lebanese, the Isrealis and Americans are allowing the middle east to erupt in more and more violence. Just as with Iraq, the longer the fighting goes on the more enemies we make. Civilians who would not have aided certain factions may feel that is their best choice when under attack. Even if, as said above, Israel is trying not to target civilians, they have killed far more than Hezbollah has up to this point. Killing and violence begets more killing and violence.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:20 pmOhlmert to Rice: 'No ceasefire'
Israel rejects call to end fighting, begins massive ground offensive.
Condi: Oh gosh I need to consort with my husband ... I mean consult with Commander Codpiece who is currently clearing brush.
Bushie: Do I choose Dickhead Cheney and fossilized Rumsfeld or CondiLezza
August 11th, 2006 at 3:20 pm"Even if, as said above, Israel is trying not to target civilians, they have killed far more than Hezbollah has up to this point."
Ah, thats the point of a war Cali. Tragic as it is, you fight to kill. If Hezbollah could, they would kill every person in Isreal
August 11th, 2006 at 3:22 pmIsn't it ironic how people fight (i.e. kill) for their religion as Suzy Q aptly noted above. Since one of the main tenants of all true religions seemingly is not to kill, you would think that adherents (whether to Christianity, Islam, Buddhism, etc.) would realize that the moment they start killing others, they are turning their back on their religion.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:25 pm
from billmon...
President Psychopath has been listening to his Chief Midwife lately instead of Crazy Dick and Don, and that she's been urging him to keep the Israelis on the leash until she can get her UN resolution.
Shrub: What can I say? It's in her job description
If Olmert really is going for it, he's taking an mighty big risk -- and an awfully stupid one, in my opinion.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:28 pmFirst of all, Israel supposedly targets "missile sites." However, these are mobile missiles. There are not launching pads that remain stationary. It is ineffective and unethical to bomb areas from where missiles have been launched. Period.
Secondly, why hasn't Israel obeyed the many UN Resolutions that preceeded the resolution for Hizbollah to disarm? Why doesn't Israel end its illegal occupation of territory? Why doesn't Israel allow a sovereign state of Palestine? Why doesn't Israel stop the illegal settlements?
Even if Israel manages to completely destroy every living thing in Lebanon and, in so doing, destroys every missile and armament, the violence will not end. The solution is always going to have to be diplomatic and not military.
Israel must be willing to negotiate a return of illegally occupied lands as well as the sovereignty of Palestine. If these measures are met, we will be a lot closer towards peace.
Violence begets more violence!
August 11th, 2006 at 3:28 pmAs a woman, I would think you may not like that; you know, the having to share a man with 10 other wives and wearing the burka. Not so liberating. And forget driving and voting and going anywhere without a chaperone.
Sounds like the Bush agenda to me.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:29 pmSuzy Q, you're right, does sound like chimpy's plan. religious fanatics really don't differ much. lol.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:31 pm#18
Your premise works well if the US and Israel had unilaterally started and continued the hostilities with no opposition. Your premise was half right--Bushco did exactly that. However, the Israelis were in their synagogues or home eating Kosher when the Arabs started the mess. Your conclusion that "Killing and violence begets more killing and violence." may very well be true but the converse is not. If Israel stopped the killing and violence the Arabs would annihilate them and then thank Allah for making the Jews so dumb. Particularly when you look at the religious aspects. It is not killing and violence for an Arab to attack a Jew it is the will of Allah. And it is not killing and violence when a Jew retaliates against an Arab, it is God's advice to take "an eye for an eye." The error is in applying the premises of Christianity to other religions and finding them wrong instead of different. Do not assign your values to another.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:32 pmThe Arabs will win, they fight for their religion harder than even the christian extremists.
Comment by Suzy Q — August 11, 2006 @ 3:11 pm
The best shot the Arabs had at removing Isreal, was when Syrian and Egypt were pushing towards Tel Aviv. The long and short being, Both Syria, and Egypt had their asses handed to them.The Isreali's with a combination of training, and equipment, have on of the best militaries in the world. And a hell of a lot of dedication to defending Isreal.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:35 pmCLYDE, YOU ARE ABSOLUTLEY RIGHT. "If Israel stopped the killing and violence the Arabs would annihilate them and then thank Allah for making the Jews so dumb." That is why everytime Isreal tries to peacfully co-exist with it's Arab neighbors, they are rejected. Hell, Isreal gave up and left Gaza. It was ready for the Arabs to move in an dmake a community. Instead, they came in destroyed the houses, greenhouses and shops and left. Arabs don't want some land, they want all of it a nd they want it with no Jews attached.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:39 pmJust remember that old Jewish businessman who proclaimed "We lose a dollar on every sale but we make it up in volume." The Arabs would be well advised to thing about buying into a war with Israel and consider the "volume" before they make the first "sale."
August 11th, 2006 at 3:40 pmAnd they were SO CLOSE to peace in the Mideast!
August 11th, 2006 at 3:41 pmMissed it by that much!
You know a possible solution to all of this can be found in Bush's policies on global warming and the environment. More and More land is being opened up in Greenland because of the non existent global warming. What has this to do with the problems in the Middle East and Isreal you ask?
Well, with all of this new land up there, why not resettle the Jews there, that way they could create all the settelments they want to and best of all wouldn't have any neighbors to piss off. The muslims can get back the land that they lost when the Jewish state was created and everybody could be happy again.
So you see, in Bush and his pals Bizzarro world that they have created there is a silver lining behind his clouds.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:45 pmWhy is the Bush administration suddenly asking the Israelis to 'cut and run'?
Aren't they fighting the terrorists? Don't they have to finish the job 'over there'?
The hypocracy of it all...
PS. Don't think that Lebanon is as inocent as they want you to think. If they were truly inocent, why weren't they asking for help with Hezbollah so that Israel wouldn't have a reason to keep attacking? I can't say 'Israel is in fact telling the truth' but they say they only want security and their soldiers back. So if they get their soldiers back and Hezbollah is moved out of there, they would have to stop the attacks based on what they have said...Why doesn't Lebanon want that?
August 11th, 2006 at 3:47 pmThanks Manny.
It is impossible to sit at home in the Good Old US of A and judge another people, religion, and country by our own standards. Doing so is just exactly what is causing the problems in the Middle East. It is my learned opinion that the Jews do not want to kill Arabs. The Israelis just want to be left alone. The Arabs don't want to leave the Israelis alone they just don't want any Israelis left. How can you mediate two positions that are mutually exclusive? Peace in the Middle East is impossible as long as there is one Arab or one Jew in the area. We shouldn't be telling either side what to do. We should make up our mind whose side we are on and help them do it.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:50 pmClyde, we agree on your view about this subject. Jews and Muslims have been after each other for centuries. It won't stop because Condi says Isreal is right and the UN says Isreal is wrong. We can not be "the decider" for every fight on the playground.
August 11th, 2006 at 3:55 pmThe United States should break off with Israel. I don't know why we are friends with them? They are the ones that started this. I feel sorry for the innocent people in Lebonnon. I don't feel sorry for Israel. Who is going to pay for what Israel has destroyed?
August 11th, 2006 at 3:57 pm#30
Tom,
A better idea would be to move all the Arabs to Greenland. The only problem would be teaching them to bow to the South South East to point at Mecca. Besides the Israelis did 50 years ago after being exiled by the Arabs over 2000 years ago what you are proposing the Arabs try again. At least you could give the Israelis equal time!
August 11th, 2006 at 3:57 pmOh Mary, you are sooooooo right. We should totally seperate from Isreal and team up with the Labanese. Soon maybe I can have Hezbollah hide a missle in my basement. That damn Isreal and her "democracy". How dare she go after the group (Arabs) that has been trying to destroy her and every Jew on the PLANET since the dawn of time. You are so right. I sure hope Isreal gives up and the Arab states can export their "freedom" to us! Idiot.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:05 pmClyde and Manny,
Since ignorance is bliss, you all should find a state that supports gay marriage and start a wonderful life together.
Sorry. But, this is just ridiculous. Painting an entire culture/religion/people with such broad strokes is absolutely ridiculous. Have you ever heard of the refusniks? There are also Israelis who do not support this offensive. There are Arab Israelis and Muslim Israelis. And, what about Lebanon? The diversity of thei population is astounding.
By speaking of "Arabs" and "Israelis" or "Muslims" and "Jews," you show your ignorance of the complexity of the situation. We need to recognize that the actions of Israel are the actions of the Israeli state. The actions of Hizbollah are the actions of members of that organization not of Lebanese or Muslims or Arabs.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:07 pmManny,
I don't agree with most of the posters regarding this issue. I am closer to your train of thought. I just have to say that there isn't a blameless party in the current middle east Fiasco. It isn't just Isreal, or Hezbollah, or Iran, the US, the UN, Europe, Muslims, Jews, etc. Pretty much everyone but pygmie tribes in Bornea have some level of blame.
the other point I would like to make, is in the early days of Islam they allowed Christianity and Judiasm to exist within their territory. Of course alot has changed since then.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:10 pmIts about time someone condemed Isreal for the Bloody Carnage they have gotten away with.
The Anti War Movement in Isreal has started coming out of the BShelters but I strongly believe they are too late as Israel has destroyed the Shanty Housing in Gaza and if so Focus on Lebanon and creating a Gaza there . bush is laughing all the way to the bank as his back door entry into Iran is almost completed.
Several months ago Isreal said it would enter into the M.E. for bush.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:12 pm"The actions of Hizbollah are the actions of members of that organization not of Lebanese or Muslims or Arabs. "
Kevin, this is simply untrue. Wihtout the assistance of the Lebanese and Iranian peopple and without the massive Arab support is has, Hezbollah wouold not exist.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:13 pmAnd, every time a cluster bomb or any other type of munition rips through the innocent body of a Lebanese man, woman, or child, you can thank the good old US of A for that one. Israel would not be able to commit its outrageous war crimes and crimes against humanity without the American support that is has.
Kind of makes you wonder why America would get a bad name throughout the rest of the world.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:20 pmOK Kevin, and everytime a random missle lands in the backyard of a house during an Isreali BBQ and kills a little girl who do the ISreali's thank for that? And when a terroist suicide bomber blows up a pizza shop filled with high school kids after school who should those families thank?
August 11th, 2006 at 4:25 pmClyde, even if Israel was attacked first, which given your thinking makes all their fighting justified, it isn't helping anything. It brings more of the middle east in line with Hezbollah, and a feeling that they are under attack. Syria occupied for a long time. When they went too far and were kicked out, there wasn't much international help for their democracy to flourish. Hezbollah used that to their advantage. They also build up their stature by providing schools and hospitals to the region. Israel, even if they are justified, should realize that they're still making a lot more enemies by pursuing this course. Give diplomacy a chance.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:25 pmOh Mary, you are sooooooo right. We should totally seperate from Isreal and team up with the Labanese
We shouldn't team up with any of them. They are third world and uncivilized. They fight for their religion, they're all nuts.
Stay out of the religious wars, we are way too advanced for that kind of nonsense.
BubbleHead has methodically involved us in religious wars. This isn't political crap its religious.
Don't forget, BubbleHead hears gods voice in his empty head.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:30 pm#36 The only one that is an Idiot is you. The Us should mind there own business and stay out of the Middle East. The only reason we are there is for OIL. You know Bush, Cheney and rice are the OIL corrupt croneys.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:30 pmManny, what is your point? I am not sure if you have one.
As an American, I might not be able to do much about terror abroad, but I sure as hell can try to stop the supply chain when we are exporting so many REAL weapons of mass destruction that are being used against innocent people. As an American citizen, I sure as hell can do something about that one. At least, it is a lot better than arguing about who is more right or wrong, or how Muslims or Jews are evil.
It is the ultimate hypocrisy that the US is currently trying to broker peace while at the same time shipping large amounts of munitions to one of the combatants. It is absolutely criminal!
August 11th, 2006 at 4:31 pmCali, they've tried diplomacy before (a la prison swaps). But clearly, nothing has worked. Hezbollah still took people hostage after murdering 8 others, and of course will continue to do so if left alone.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:34 pmBut the cease fire seems to be pretty good from what the article details. Looks like Israel will get everything they want but the complete dismantling of Hezbollah which is an unrealistic goal anyway. Hezbollah won't be disarmed but the agreement also specifies that they not be rearmed. Oh, and for all those Lebanon defenders out there, remember the Lebanese government originally fought that provision.
Let's not forget that along with the immediate death that we are exporting from the United States in the form of conventional munitions, we are also exporting long term death and destruction in the form of depleted uranium (DU) munitions. These are true weapons of mass destruction. First we poisoned Iraq, then the Balkans, then Iraq again, and now we are enabling the poisoning of Lebanon.
If you don't know about depleted uranium, please watch this informative animation.
The United States is criminal in its use and supply of weapons of mass destruction. Period. End of story.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:35 pmIf we agree that Hezbollah are launching rockets into Israel, and even if they are using civilians as shields (although according to HRW that doesn't seem the case), how is Israel's bombing of the Lebanese civilians (however accidental) justified?
Israel doesn't seem to be achieving any successes in stopping the rockets, and even if they destroy Hezbollah's rocket launching capability for now, how are they going to prevent it in the long run?
There seems to be an underying assumption that force can always be counteracted with a greater force successfully...
August 11th, 2006 at 4:38 pmThe policy of responding to Hezbollah with military action is a failed policy. Negotiating with Lebanon, who could speak for Hezbollah disidents, since the political wing of Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese parliment and ensuring everyone's complaints are addressed is the only way to solve the crisis. This is similiar to Northern Ireland. No amount of MILITARY force got rid of Shin Fenn, only negotiations and inclusion in the government did.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:45 pmI don't trust Lebanon to take care of things. They initially blocked the provision to keep Hezbollah from being re-armed.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:47 pmThe U.N. Human Rights Council on Friday condemned Israel for “massive bombardment of Lebanese civilian populations†and “systematic†human rights violations, and decided to send a commission to investigate.
Why bother? They will only find pieces of what once were women and children.
August 11th, 2006 at 4:49 pmHey, Kofi Annan, why dont you put the UN´s headquarters in Lebanon. THat probably will stop Israel.
Bones- I think perhaps the problem is that if you talk to people, you take the first step towards admitting that their grievances might be legitimate, aside from their inflammatory rhetoric.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:00 pmHow much support would the extreme wings of Hamas and Hezbollah have if Israel addressed more central issues? Not much, I'd guess.
This is great diplomacy. Fear and suspicion. I think that George Bush and his ilk have won. Don't trust them. Eh Eh. They are with us or against us. Eh Eh. They hate our freedom.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:05 pmThe Isreali’s with a combination of training, and equipment, have on of the best militaries in the world. And a hell of a lot of dedication to defending Isreal.
Comment by Krazny — August 11, 2006 @ 3:35 pm
I would add a fiery-looking thug named US.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:05 pmyes, they are well trained, and yes, they are dedicated. But so are Hezbollah. And what if they defeat Hezbollah on the battlefield? Will it actually make any difference in the long run? If the basis for discontent exists is ignored (and indeed exacerbated through the killing of innocents), then more Hezbollahs will arise.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:14 pmPoint is, Isael are trying to treat a symptom as a cause.
Note Israel today asked Bush to speed up delivery of antipersonnel rockets, how does that jive with a "ceasefire"? They have no intention of observing a ceasefire.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:36 pm#50 Bones
It would give more credibility to your argument if you didn't contradict yourself in the same sentence of one comment. You argue that Hezbollah is not Lebanon and that Lebanon could speak for Hezbollah "...since the political wing of Hezbollah is part of the Lebanese parliment (sic)." That is the same as saying Harry Reid can speak for DUHbya since the political wing of the Republican Party is part of the US Senate. Maybe Preparation H can relieve the itch associated with your rectal/cranial insertion.
I will agree with your analogy that Lebanon is to Hezbollah as the United States is to the Rebuplican Party. "Never the twain shall meet."
August 11th, 2006 at 5:43 pmClyde, maybe it would be simplier to say Hezbollah has two wings a political wing and a military wing, both are called Hezbollah and both are part of the same organization. It would be unlikely that the world would be willing to directly negotiate with the military wing but would negotiate with the political wing. Since the negotiators can't talk to a few members of parliment in Lebanon and ignore the rest of the government, then the "whole parliment" has to speak for the complaints of Hezbollah. This is not a contradiction but an appreciation of reality, you can't see it because you have crap over your eyes because you think out of your ass.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:48 pmAnd Clod (Clyde) I think Harry Reid can speak for George Bush because 1 criminal liar in the government is just like another.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:51 pmNo. 58
Why can't Hezbollah represent itself at the negotiating table, along with its state backers- syria and iran?
The point is, you need to bring all the parties in the conflict into the talks- you can't expect diplomatic success if you only talk to the people you like. This involves an implicit acceptance of the idea that their grievance might be valid, rather than raking up the 'clash of civilisations' cliche.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:53 pm#61, we say Hezbollah but what we are really saying is "a segment of the Lebanese people". Just like Shin Fenn was a "segment of the Irish people". Certainly the complaints of Hezbollah need to be addressed, but you can't ignore the Lebanese government and negotiate with only Hezbollah. If you were Iraq and felt like the US was killing your citizens and wanted your grievences addressed, you wouldn't negotiate with Focus on the Family, just because it controls the President's brain.
August 11th, 2006 at 5:57 pmNo. 62.
I never said that the Lebanese government should be excluded- I took their inclusion as obvious. I actually said 'all parties involved', meaning in the conflict.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:03 pmI'm just unsure of the relationship between the Lebanese Government and Hezbollah, and so didn't want to conflate the two. All i know is that (as you say) Hezbollah has several facets- a social, a political, and a military. How they interrelate is difficult to say. The relationship with Syria and Iran is a bit less difficult- they both seem to provide arms and money.
#63, and could Syria and Iran being provding arms and money to Hezbollah because they are retaliating for the US aggression in the Middle East that Syria and Iran find unacceptable. Could they be supplying arms and money to Hezbollah to interfere with American colonialist plans for the Middle East just like the US did sponsoring the Taliban in the Far East? Could it be that Syria and Iran are NOT "afraid of our freedom" but genuinely upset for the Shah of Iran, the US puppet? Or shall we immediately dismiss these considerations and call Syria and Iran evil? Then we can ignore their legitimate complaints and just kill them.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:12 pmThe UN better watch out for the out cry as they call Israel's killing of innocent woman and children inhuman. Look what happen to Mel as he said bad things about Jewish people. Now I think no one should charge or say anything wrong about Israel or the Jewish people if they do it should be considered a crime. Israel can kill who ever they want as they are God's chosen people as written in the bible. If fact Israel should control the world even the United States they by having Jewish leadership for the world.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:14 pmThe rest of the world and the people of the world mean nothing but should serve Israel. Maybe that's just a bad dream or a book of fiction.
64.
Precisely. If we pretend that Hezbollah/Syria/Iran etc are nothing but psychopaths or 'islamofascists' then we have a recipe for endless war. 'They' are wrong, 'we' are right. On the one hand, I would say that every side has a point (and hence they should all be listened to), and on the other, I really believe that force is the most immediate but least effective method of solving problems.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:28 pmAs you say, the only approach i have read from the right wing is 'KILL THEM ALL', which is hardly a realistic way of approaching the issue.
Thanks Mishkin. Real or perceived, all sides do have a dog in the fight. Continuing "they bombed us", so "we have to kill them" will give BushCo the neverending war they want. And it never works. The only way to stop the Mideast crisis is to try what has never been tried before, get a real diplomat to negotiate with everyone involved where everyone wins, then get the rest of the world to enforce the agreement.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:32 pm#59 Bones
I apologize for wearing my brown contact lenses.
And please complete my education by giving me the name of any accredited Country in this world, except Lebanon as you claim, allows foreign militant non-citizens to serve on their highest governmental body. This will allow us to compare the proverbial apples and oranges if you will.
My logic: if Lebanon allows only Lebanese to serve in Parliament and the Hezbollah has members in the Parliament then Hezbollah is, at least in part, Lebanese. If Hezbollah is Lebanese and Hezbollah attacks Israel, then Israel, by attacking Lebanon is retaliating against the LEBANESE Hezbollah. Lebanon attacked Israel--Israel retaliated against Lebanon.
Compare: Saudi Arabia attacked the United States. The United States retaliated against Afghanistan and Iraq and is eyeing Syria and Iran. You people condemn Israel and praise Bushco.
Where is your logic?
August 11th, 2006 at 6:33 pmUS 'losing credibility' in Mideast
EGYPTIAN President Hosni Mubarak said the United States and the West were losing credibility in the Middle East because they were dragging their feet on a ceasefire in Lebanon between Israel and Hezbollah guerrillas.
In an interview with the Egyptian magazine October, released today, Mr Mubarak also said it would be impossible to implement quickly a UN resolution which requires Hezbollah to disarm - one of the steps Israel and the United States want to see in a political settlement of the month-old conflict.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:33 pmFor those interested, here are maps that show you exactly why some folks might be so upset in the Middle East.
This map is the original partition including those areas occupied by Israel following 1948.
And, here is a map of the West Bank following the supposed Peace Accords from 2000.
It is unquestionable fact that Israel has consistently taken more and more land to incorporate into the State of Israel either through politics or force or both. Increasingly illegal settlements in the West Bank, particularly East Jerusalem, make this situation even worse.
Any type of comprehensive peace is going to have to address the Israeli land grab that has followed since 1948. I personally do not think that Israel is willing to seriously sit down to negotiate with this in mind.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:35 pm#68, glad to help clear up your confusion. Uh, Sinn Fein and Northern Ireland come to mind. Exact same situation. British Army in Northern ireland shooting and killing Irish. Political wing of Sinn Fein and Northern Irish government negotiated with British. troops withdrawn, weapons laid down, Sinn Fein becomes a force in Irish politics and representative government instead of blowing things up. British never directly talked with Sinn Fein "military wing". Sinn fein were Northern Irish citizens, and the British learned killing Northern Irish citizens did NOTHING to lessen the power and effectiveness of Sinn Fein.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:39 pmclyde.
you tie lebanon and hezbollah too closely together.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:42 pmi think hezbollah has two or three ministers in the lebanon parliament- correct me if i'm wrong. does this mean that hezbollah can be taken to represent lebanon? only a very small portion of the lebanese, surely?
#70 Kevin
Have you ever looked at a map of the original thirteen colonies in 1776? I will guarantee that that map no where near approximates the area encompassed by a map of the United States today. We can take over land by force but Israel or any other Country in the world cannot? You seem to overlook the fact that Israel comprised the entire area in question at one time in history. Any type of comprehensive peace in the Middle East will have to guarantee that the Arabs do not shoot at Israel first. Israel has not initiated any military action, without due provacation, since 1948. Can you make the same claim for your Arab buddies.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:45 pmClyde, post #73. You ignore the fact that Hezbollah correctly states that an Israeli bomb blew up a family on a Lebanese beach 2 days before Hezbolah captured two Israeli soldiers within the borders of Labanon by the way. Does that sound like "Israel has not initiated any military action, without due provacation, since 1948.", as you contend.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:48 pm#72 Mishkin
The Green Party has only a few members, if any, in our Congress and Senate but they are Americans. Why do you people insist that because these terrorists are called Hezbollah that they live in some never-never land ala Lewis Carroll's Alice. If they are Lebanese citizens and live in Lebanon they are, BY DEFINITION, Lebanese. If the rest of Lebanon wants to disown them so be it, but do it before the fact, not after they rightfully get their butts kicked. If it walks like a duck etc.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:53 pmClyde,
Your comparisons between eighteenth-century colonial and twentieth-century post-colonial landscapes is absolutely ridiculous. If the United States were to attempt westward expansion as they did in the eighteenth and nineteenth centuries within the past 50 years, you can certainly bet that there would be an international outcry. And, please, do not use the fictional holy scriptures as some type of document for land tenure. Certainly Israel "conquered" these territories since 1948 but should they be allowed more and more conquests. You are falling prey to an unending circle of violence and appropriation. Someone is angry that their land was taken. They fight to gain their land back. They lose. They lose more land. Replay ad infinitum.
Think what you may, a resolution to conflict in the Middle East must address the historical roots of the conflict devoid of religious ideology or hateful rhetoric.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:53 pmThe commission better watch their asses, they might just become collaterally damaged.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:54 pm#75, Clyde let's use your analogy and maybe you will understand. If the Green Party had 23 Gongressmen in the US House and their Party amongst the US populace, and some of the members of their Party were attacking Mexico. With your logic, Mexico would be justified in bombing Las Cruces Arizona indiscriminantly because someone , somewhere in the US was a member of the Green Party. Doesn't make any sense.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:58 pm75.
In the American congress, i presume the green party represent the green party, not the american state per tota. because they are called hezbollah, and because they have a share in the lebanese state, does not mean you can conflate them with lebanon as a whole.
August 11th, 2006 at 6:59 pmand have you ever tried disowning a well armed paramilitary group? as far as the lebanese people are concerned, they really havent offered them much support, as their parliamentry showing demonstrates.
#78 sorry meant 2-3 not 23.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:00 pmBones,
What proof do you have that the Hezbollah comment is true as you say? What was the date of the first Hezbollah rocket attack on Israel? Oh My God, it couldn't have been launched three days earlier from the same beach you claim the Israelis attacked without provacation according to creditable but unnamed sources.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:00 pmRegardless of who shot who first. Israel is not defending itself. Israel is committing war crimes against the civilian population of Lebanon. There is no justification to the death and devastation that the State of Israel has enacted upon the State of Lebanon.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:02 pm#81, Clyde now you get it! YEAH! No matter where you start, each side points back to something they say provoked them to do what they did. But, the bombing of the innocent Lebanese family is true. The only way to stop "he said, she said" is to stop it. This is exactly what the British-Irish conflict taught us.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:06 pmFrom José Steingler (translation by me) :}
7 fallacies from the ticket-master dominant speech:
1. Israel acts on self-defense
Wrong: Fron its creation, Israel wants to take over the waters of Litani river, located on the south of Lebanon. To acomplish that, he needs a puppet government in Beirut.
2. Israel is the only nation in the world that is wished to be erased from the map
Wrong: In more than a decade, groups in countries like East Timor, Kurdistan (?), Yugoslavia, Russia, Irak, Palestine, Afghanistan and Lebanon were erased into oblivion.
3. Lebanon was bombed because Hezbollah kidnapped two jewsih soldiers.
Wrong: The “road of Damascus†and plans from a “New Middle East†made by Washington and Tel Aviv were not thought last night and they seek the dominance of Beirut.
4. Dead people are the result of a game dictated from Iran and Syria.
Wrong: Dead people are the result of Israel bombings and the popular resistance led by Hezbollah, insurgent nationalist movement and lebanese political party.
5. The dream of “the Great Syria†is still going.
Wrong: the dream of people from Levante is surviving and coordinating fights against terrorism that Israel and US conducts globally and in the region.
6. The Hebrew State has less economic resources than its neighbors.
Wrong: Israel is in the 16th place of the richest countries in the world, with a higher rent per capita than the one of its neighbors, including Saudi Arabia. From 1949 to 1998 the aid received from US added up to $84 billions. Jets, choppers, fuel, GBU-28 bombs and other kind of weapons (some of them are experimental) are supplied by US. But the media dont talk about this. They talk about the rusty Katiushka missiles fired by Hezbollah.
7. The silence of the nations that allowed the arming of Hezbollah is the source of the conflict.
Wrong: the source of the “conflict†is the hypocresy, complicity and silence of the so called “free worldâ€.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:18 pmBones,
You are right your argument doesn't make sense. Las Cruces is in New Mexico, unless Mishkin and his greens have invaded New Mexico from Arizona and claimed the territory. My whole point in this thread is that one cannot separate ideologies from fact in order to condemn one Country or another. If you want to argue Countries use Israel and Lebanon all the time. If you want to want to use militant groups use the Israeli Army and the Hezbollah all the time. If you want to use religion use Jews and Muslims all the time. Do not try to condemn Israel and sanctify Lebanon by twisting the semantics and confusing the matter by changing groups
Using your logic we could say the United States did not invade Iraq. It was just a few hot-headed jar heads, fly boys, ground pounders, and the Proud and True United States Navy. But they aren't Americans cause we call them the Military.
Of course you used the same logic with 9/11. It wasn't Saudi's that attacked the WTC. It was some homless exiles, men without a Courtry, who belonged to some funny name group that were the bad guys. It wouldn't do to call it like it was cause your President was, and is, sleeping with a Saudi Prince. (I guess that would make DUHbya a Queen).
August 11th, 2006 at 7:19 pmClyde evidently you're thicker than concrete. It's not at all like saying the US didn't invade Iraq. The government of Lebanon did not invade or attack Israel. A segment of the Lebanese population did, aq vey small segment. The US government did however invade Iraq. So you're wrong on point #1. You completely missed or chise to miss the point about the Green party because it backfired on you, point #2 you're wrong. the analogy that a political party with some members that commit terrorist acts should make the whole country liable for their actions is ridculous and your arguement is by the way the same one Osama used to attack the WTC, wrong again Clyde. Finally, it is never permissible in the 21st century to kill innocent civilians for the actions of armed terrorists.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:27 pmClyde,
Seriously, where are you from? Are you one of those Israeli combat bloggers that I have read so much about? I mean, you have absolutely no understanding of American government and even less of American geography. I would imagine that you are part of the cyber corps that Israel has unleashed on the internet.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:31 pmI would imagine that you are part of the cyber corps that Israel has unleashed on the internet.
Comment by Kevin — August 11, 2006 @ 7:31 pm
He is convincing me, so he is doing a good job. In fact, I am in the mood of a circumcision. :)
August 11th, 2006 at 7:34 pmFor all of you who hadn't seen this report and just think that my last post was a crazed rant, here is the story concerning Israel's "army of cyber soldiers."
I am figuring that some folks posting here may be involved.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:34 pmJuan "I am in the mood of a circumcision"???????
August 11th, 2006 at 7:37 pmJuan “I am in the mood of a circumcision�??????
Comment by bones — August 11, 2006 @ 7:37 pm
It was a joke. Like I was really flowing along the jewish rethoric.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:40 pmOh thank god, I thought it was some sort of sadomasochistic Friday nite pleasure ritual:).
August 11th, 2006 at 7:41 pmHa! Although I am OK with jewish rituals, I thank God I am an atheist.
August 11th, 2006 at 7:43 pm:)
Tah Dah! Gee, Clyde, the Security council just passed the Ceasefire Resolution between the "governments" of Israel and Lebanon and no negotiation with the military wing of Hezbollah. The agreement was made with the members of the Lebanese parliament including the members of the political wing of Hezbolah. Exactly as I stated in #50 above, evidently the UN and the rest of the world finds it easy to follow my point even if you can't.
August 11th, 2006 at 8:05 pm"By a 27-11 vote with 8 abstentions, the council approved a resolution proposed by Algeria, Bahrain, Bangladesh, Indonesia, Jordan, Malaysia, Morocco, Pakistan, Saudi Arabia and Tunisia which "strongly condemns grave Israeli violations of human rights and breaches of international humanitarian law in Lebanon"
Among those joining in voting for the resolution were China, Russia, India, Cuba, Brazil, Argentina, Mexico, Peru, Ecuador and Uruguay.
European countries, Japan and Canada voted against the resolution, primarily because it lacked balance by omitting any reference to Hizbullah"
Wow...That is SOME list of countries that voted in favor of this obscene resolution, eh?
Thank goodness the civilzed nations of the West voted against this atrocity.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:06 amTERROR FEAR TERROR FEAR TERROR FEAR TERROR FEAR TERROR FEAR
August 12th, 2006 at 5:57 amTHE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR! THE SKY IS FALLING! TERROR!
August 12th, 2006 at 9:15 amjust a matter of your perspective. it appears the majority of the world disagrees.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:15 pm#95"...Islam stole the land from the Romans who stole it from the Jews..."
*Ahem* The land of milk and honey is OURS until my ancestors were expelled and absorbed. We were doing fine until that guy with the trumpet came along. Israel, Jordan, Lebanon and Syria are all squatting illegally on Caanan's land, and, by Baal, we won't rest until we get it back. Once we get the Amalkites on board, we're going to raise a mighty stink which will make the middle east problems MUCH more complicated, I promise you.
August 12th, 2006 at 1:26 pm-Shakazzerimesh
November Predictions:
Another Al Qaeda Attack
Another Bin Laden Video
Another Rigged Election
Another Republican Sponsored Supreme Court Decision
August 14th, 2006 at 3:11 am…….america is to blame….blah blah blah….america is to blame….blah blah blah…..Bush is the devil…..blah blah….Rove will eat you babies if you give him the chance……blah blah blah….WE planned 9/11…blah blah blah….All the hurricanes and other natural occuring weather patterns have been caused within the past six years…blah blah blah…..Religion=Satan….blah blah blah…..terrorism is not as big of a problem as most people think…blah blah blah….Cheney’s daughter is gay because he abused her….blah blah blah…..Gore won!!! Blah blah blah…..Kerry was defeated by a bunch of religious fanatics….blah blah blah……Cindy Sheehan should never be questioned….blah blah blah…..the main-stream media is in Bushs back pocket….blah blah blah….Saddam was running a tidy little country…..blah blah blah….Israel has over-reached……blah blah blah……the failure of american schools is all Bushs fault…..blah blah blah…….health care? Bushs fault…blah blah blah….social security? Bushs fault…..blah blah blah……sunburn on the beach?Bushs fault…blah blah blah…..speeding ticket?Bushs fault…….blah blah blah….constipation?Bushs fault….blah blah….blah….
I think I may have forgotten something….Did I say blah blah blah?
August 14th, 2006 at 12:44 pmThree Mistakes Small Business Owners Make After Incorporating
Incorporating a business has several advantages. Some of these advantages include: protecting the assets of the shareholders and officers, protecting the assets of the business from shareholder and officer's actions, improving the image of the company...
March 20th, 2008 at 11:38 am