National Review Editor: Iraq May Be Turning Into Bush’s Vietnam
National Review Editor: Iraq May Be Turning Into Bush’s Vietnam
In a column published yesterday, National Review editor Rich Lowry states that “Iraq War liberals might be making their first-ever correct diagnosis,†suggesting that the Iraq war is eliciting more similarities to Vietnam each day. Below is the rough evolution of Lowry’s position on the Iraq and Vietnam comparison:
There are other niggling differences [between Iraq and Vietnam] — the low casualties (roughly 50 combat deaths so far, compared with 58,000 in Vietnam), a high level of public support, a volunteer, highly motivated Army and a definable enemy, cause and endgame. … “Another Vietnam” is largely wishful thinking.
Most of them were infected with a willful pessimism, prepared to believe the worst about America’s capabilities and its image among Iraqis, while puffing up the forces of Saddam. Now that reality has intruded, with a swift military victory and a warm welcome from Iraqi civilians, one wonders: Will TV jabberer Chris Matthews admit his foolishness in writing, “This invasion of Iraq, if it goes off, will join the Bay of Pigs, Vietnam, Desert One, Beirut and Somalia in the history of military catastrophe”?
The left says whatever war is in question is “another Vietnam,” while the right denies it. After three decades of being serially wrong, in the Iraq War liberals might be making their first-ever correct diagnosis. … It is not too late to tamp down that militia-directed violence, which hasn’t yet taken on an uncontrollable life of its own. But the clock is ticking, toward the hour when we will indeed suffer another Vietnam.
Lowry is inching closer and closer to the reality-based community, but in doing so, he wants us to forget what he told us in the past.
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Even the Dallas Morning News editorials are plastered with negativity about Bush's failed war. Bush is done.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:23 pm"Serially wrong?"
Seriously now.
The clock was already ticking.
Now the alarm is going off.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:23 pmI know I'm gonna get labeled a moonbat for this, but... between Bush being 'fushterated' over the war, Lieberman losing, and this... I'm scared.
I want to believe it, than minds are waking up and changing. But part of me is just scared.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:25 pmSo Bush's plan is not working. Sites like this do a very good job pointing that out. People in the "middle" like myself agree that Bush's plan hasn't worked. One question:
When will we get to hear the Democrat plan for Iraq and the War of terror?
To date, I only hear what Bush did wrong. I am very unhappy with the Repug's but what are the Dems offering?? Still waiting...........
August 16th, 2006 at 4:26 pmDid I say plastered? I meant PLASTERED. One lambasting afetr another. Bush needs to do other things to save his legacy... and Condoleeza is the face of failed Mideast policy...
On and on and on and on it never stops....one after another...
August 16th, 2006 at 4:26 pmYes Lowry is a flip-flopper, but hey, he is coming over to the light side, away from the dark side. You gotta give him credit.
Oh yeah, and that whole Iraq thing, it really is a mess, kinda like Nam.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:26 pmDon't forget heis greatest hit
“It is time to say it unequivocally: We are winning in Iraq.â€
http://thinkprogress.org/2005/05/19/national-review-10-days-later/
August 16th, 2006 at 4:26 pm#4, So what's your plan to avoid a car accident today? Oh you say you have no plan, you just avoid it. Ok I'll go with that.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:28 pmwere is/was/willbe the republican plan for iraq?
August 16th, 2006 at 4:29 pmRoger_Roger,
I think most of us are still waiting to hear the President's plan. And "we'll stand down while they stand up" is not a plan, which is now painfully obvious.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:31 pmGo jump on a tack, Comment by Roger_Roger — August 16, 2006 @ 4:26 pm
"Decrease dependence on foreign oil" is code for "leave the Mideast alone".
When the hysteria dwindles and the only ones terrorized and scared are the folks in the White House the solution is waiting. You have to wash the feet of your enemy. Any good Christian know this. Any moral person knows this. Doesn't look good in a campaign ad, however.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:31 pmwell first, FIX THE ROYAL MESS the bushites have created. Re-regulate the MSM so they can ONLY TELL THE TRUTH. Start listening to the military brass, you know, the ones the bushites have ignored all these years.....
August 16th, 2006 at 4:31 pmas long as people are changing their mind, im okay. that's what we are here for.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:35 pm#4, I would hope the Democrats stop calling it a "War On Terror" since we have not officially declared war against anyone and since you can't declare war on a tactic. But they would be seen as weak on national security if they did something reasonable like that.
Certainly a more unified Democratic line on the Iraq war is needed, though.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:36 pmWait,
Do the Dems actually want to leave Iraq? At least that would be a plan. I am confused because the Senate just voted for a time table to leave and most all the Dems voted against it. The Dems are also voting constently FOR the funding for Iraq. You guy and gals tell me this great plans about leaving Iraq, but I see your Dem leaders voting against leaving.
Confused...
August 16th, 2006 at 4:37 pmActually, the left has been right about everything.
Iraq, tax cuts, social security, you name it.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:38 pmto you budding authors; this is why you don't skip history class, a prime example of someone asleep when they should have been listening. this person has sleep issues though, so that may not be fair. they are still asleep and write when they are actually comatose. zzzzzzzzz
August 16th, 2006 at 4:39 pmSo have liberals been right all along, or are they just recetnly become right? Aren't they the same thing? And so isn't it the war supporters who have been serially wrong?
August 16th, 2006 at 4:40 pmmadashell,
A few weeks ago a movement started. Smart people on both sides at high levels started pushing diplomacy and connectivity to the recent past.
Bush is done. His only concern right now should be staying out of prison.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:41 pmThere is a the infamous "tipping point" that has yet to be reached, but the narrative is changing rapidly.
Yesterday Joe Scarborough had teh 'Is Bush an Idiot' now this. Goerge Will--Tom Friedman said that the Republicans need to wake up or else.
Not that any of these cheerleaders will get a pass for pushing this fiasco on us, they will be held accountable. But that they are paving the way for the abandonment of Bushism is a sign that America doesn't want to go the way of Rome.
-GSD
August 16th, 2006 at 4:41 pm> he wants us to forget what he told us in the past.
Yeah. Wouldn't you?
August 16th, 2006 at 4:42 pmDon't forget that Lowry was the author last Spring (2005) of an article about Iraq ... a cover story in fact entitled...
...WE'RE WINNING...
August 16th, 2006 at 4:42 pmRoger-Roger,
Many people offered many alternatives to invading Iraq. No one listened. You first have to turn off the loud radio--that is the believe Bush at all cost spin machine--before you can hear a normal voice spoken at normal levels.
-GSD
August 16th, 2006 at 4:43 pm#13
That's because their Republican counterparts will paint them as 'sympathetic' to the terrorists. So the long-in-the-tooth Dems are covering their hides. Even as a centrist, I think it looks pretty weak. But that's what's happening.
I have a question for you. Where's the moral outrage over Plamegate from the same Republicans that got their turkeynecks all in a wobble over a blowjob not too long ago?
August 16th, 2006 at 4:44 pm#18.
Sorry for all the typos. I must have Bush syndrome today.
-GSD
August 16th, 2006 at 4:45 pmTo date, I only hear what Bush did wrong. I am very unhappy with the Repug’s but what are the Dems offering??
Assuming you really care for an answer, those Dems who are proposing complete withdrawal -- which is by no means all Dems -- are offering, at the very least, that whatever the hell else happens in Iraq, American soldiers won't be being killed and wounded by the dozens daily. That's much better for the US than "stay the course".
No, it's not a good thing that Iraq is descending into chaos, and it's possible that it will descend faster and deeper into chaos if we leave or if we stay, and yes, that could have bad consequences for the US down the road -- but that's not guaranteed; American occupation is one of the factors destabilizing Iraq today, so things might sort out more easily without us sitting there festering in the wound, so to speak. No one knows for sure and anyone who says they know for sure should be punched in the face. In the meantime, while we wait to see what happens to Iraq, our troops won't be getting limbs blown off.
Seriously, coming up with a better plan than "stay the course" (which, screw Mehlman, is what the GOP has offered) isn't hard at all. As The Editors explain, bringing our troops home and then chewing on broken glass is a better plan.
Finally, screw you and everyone who says "when will we get to hear the Democrat plan for Iraq and the War of terror?" Every time before 3/03 that anyone on the left proposed any plan for Iraq other than invasion, they were denounced and shouted down and called unserious. You didn't want to hear a plan then, you don't really want to hear a plan now. You're the unserious one, you're the damned maniac, you're the jerk, you're the PROBLEM. Now get out of our way and let us stop the bleeding and see if we're going to need to amputate.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:45 pmit won't be long before the right will be blaming the liberals for invading iraq in the first place. so much for coming back to reality.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:46 pmWhen will we get to hear the Democrat plan for Iraq and the War of terror? To date, I only hear what Bush did wrong. I am very unhappy with the Repug’s but what are the Dems offering?? Still waiting………..
Comment by Roger_Roger
Republicans always want to hear a PLAN. Who says the democrats need a friggin' plan? Its up to the ADMINISTRATION, whether it be democratic or republican to have a PLAN. Its the Administratrion, backed by the plans and information of the thousands of employees in the CIA, FBI, Department of Defense employees and other agencies., who are responsible for having a PLAN. Not the congress. Not the governors. Not some state representative from West Virginia or a Senator representing eastern Washington who lacks all the facts, secret information, and sensitive intelligence sources the ADMINISTRATION has to make its PLAN with.
Evidently Roger Dodger was not paying attention in his High School government class.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:47 pmJust another attemt at luring back the soft middle. After six years of cockups they got caught whacking over our country. Too little too late.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:52 pmEvidently Roger Dodger was not paying attention in his High School government class.
Comment by Joe Sixpack
No Roger is a Neocon Bush supporter, pretending to be a moderate, if he was a moderate, thinking person, he would have already figured out the question he is asking.
Instead he is asking questions, then attacking the answers like a neocon.
Beware neocons in moderate clothing.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:52 pm#3 I know the feeling. If there were some semblance of rational thinking up at the top with trigger finger, I would be less inclined to feel this dread.
August 16th, 2006 at 4:54 pmYes TP, welcome to reality-based community. It's good to see you agree with this; we can't afford to lose Iraq like we did with Vietnam. Democrats have discredited themselves on national security for another generation. Just like Vietnam.
The consequences of that defeat would be remarkably similar to those in the wake of Vietnam. The prestige of the U.S. government would sink around the world, emboldening our enemies and creating a period of American doubt and retreat. A humanitarian catastrophe would likely befall Iraq, just as it did Vietnam. The only significant difference is that in Iraq, radical Islamists harbor ambitions to come to our shores and kill Americans, whereas the Viet Cong never wanted to follow us home.
The American domestic political scene already has the hallmarks of Vietnam redux. The Democrats are waging an intraparty civil war to marginalize supporters of the war, and they revile President Bush as much as they did President Nixon. Republicans, on the other hand, are hoping that the Democrats lurch too far in their dovishness and will, once again, discredit themselves on national security for a generation.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:01 pmBeware neocons in moderate clothing.
Comment by Wayne
Yeah, of course he is. Wants to hear a PLAN. Well I have one: get a new president who has half a bain and knows how to use diplomacy, fire Rummy and put a guy like Murtha in there. Or at least a real war general who knows how to win and when to get the hell out.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:02 pmDemorat campaign slogan.
RETREAT AND DEFEAT IN IRAQ! RETREAT AND DEFEAT IN IRAQ! RETREAT AND DEFEAT IN IRAQ!
August 16th, 2006 at 5:04 pmA republican cut and ran from Vietnam. Nice try.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:05 pmmemphis minnie,
Which service are you in/going into?
August 16th, 2006 at 5:06 pmDemorat campaign slogan.RETREAT AND DEFEAT IN IRAQ! RETREAT AND DEFEAT IN IRAQ! RETREAT AND DEFEAT IN IRAQ!
Comment by memphis minnie
Uh huh. Verses Staying the Course?
August 16th, 2006 at 5:06 pmWe do not need an answer; no one has that. What is needed is a new culture that reasons through problems differently. We need logic, due diligence, and oversight not ideology and divisiveness to drive America's foreign policy. America will be stronger for it.
This is not a matter of left or right it is a matter of purposeful actions that will restore America's reputation in the world. Our strength will be restored the day that the world sees that our people hold our nation's survival above irrational claims advanced to protect the agenda of those who are afraid to admit error.
The right wing created the Iraq disaster, and the democrats are going to have to devise a method to get out from under it. We have good minds in this country; now is the time to use them. We need to drop the ideologically driven insanity and get back to basics. Enough is enough.
There is much work to do. Our nation is the most technologically advanced in the world due to our capacity for innovation. Let's use the talent we have, not the cronies that the manipulation of people and money creates.
We must stop attempting to pervert reality by suffering the delusion that it can be made to conform to our violent will. When leadership sees clearly without the excess baggage of delusional thinking, we shall succeed. It is the only option that is acceptable.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:09 pmNot to mention that retreat does not equate defeat. Tactical retreat has been used over history to throw an oposing army off, then you come back in and stirke. But, considering that WE AREN'T FIGHTING AN ARMY IN IRAQ. We are fighing a guerilla force of insurgents. It wouldn't be a retreat if we left. It would be just that, leaving.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:11 pmReality possesses a strong Liberal bias.
Steven Colbert
August 16th, 2006 at 5:11 pmWhen will we get to hear the Democrat plan for Iraq and the War of terror?
To date, I only hear what Bush did wrong. I am very unhappy with the Repug’s but what are the Dems offering?? Still waiting………..
Comment by Roger_Roger
There is things like this out there...
http://www.americanprogress.org/site/c.biJRJ8OVF/b.4829/
http://ourkarlrove.blogspot.com/2006/04/here-it-is-democratic-plan-for-iraq.html
But I dont have a clue if the democrat "leaders" have a plan or if they feel that they are not going to be removing Bush so they just dont need one for a couple more years.... though you would think they would consider what will be happening to the country as a whole for the next two years and come up with a good idea or two and get Bush to go with it now...
August 16th, 2006 at 5:13 pmOn Right Wing Facists:
"The Heritage Foundation can make em, but we can break em."
Alabama 2012 Congressional Candidate Matthew J. Price
August 16th, 2006 at 5:15 pmI have not attacked an answer and will not. I did vote for Bush when he ran against Gore, but I voted against Bush when he ran against Kerry. I don't think Bush has done a great job internationally, especially in Iraq. He has done a fine job keeping unemployment low. Our economy is doing great as well. All that doesn't matter to me though as the Federal Government has 1 true goal (or they should). That 1 thing is keeping us safe. It is the only reason for them to exist.
Overall, Bush has made me feel more unsafe simply because of his failure to rebuild Iraq. He also has piss poor diplomatic skills (there is evidence for that everywhere).
I would call myself extremely conservative on economic issues and very liberal on most all Social Issues, which puts me as a moderate (at least I think so). I am very much interested in politics as well. To date, I am very disillusioned with our Federal Government. Both parties compete to spend more money. Neither party actually WORKS towards the social issues they love to talk about. Bush and the Repugs cannot handle international issues. The repugs have a plan yet it doesn't look like it is working.
I can take some bad if I get some good. Fine, the Dems will raise my taxes, will spend just as much or more then the Repugs, and my dream of ending Social Security will not happen. I am cool with that if they would actually get 2 macro things done.
1, Provide a plan that makes sense for Iraq and provide a plan for diplomacy with the rest of the world.
2, Do more then talk about important social issues. Gay people should be allowed to be married (make it happen). The Death penalty is wrong, pass a law getting rid of it already. Stop talking about the "War of Poverty" and win it already. Stop talking about how the "Black community" is a victim. YOu have been saying this crap for more years then I can count. DO SOMETHING TO FIX IT ALREADY! Stop talking about all the poor children without health coverage. Present a plan to the american public detailing how your Universal health care plan will provide better medicine and doctors to me at a reduced cost. Honestly, we aren't morons. Sit us down and explain in detail your plan for these social issues.
You stop talking and start actually doing those 2 things and I am a Democrat for Life. I don't care how much you screw my tax wise if you actually get the other stuff done.
Overall, I would say that I have voted for repugs in the past. I have done this simply because the important social issues that I care about don't get solved by the Dems. I have voted for the repugs in hopes that my taxes will be lower and government spending will be less. I figured that the social issue's aren't really important because no one in Washington actually does anything about them. NOW IS THE TIME DEMS!!!! Stop walking and stop talking!!
August 16th, 2006 at 5:15 pmWhen will we get to hear the Democrat plan for Iraq and the War of terror?
If you take your fingers out of your ears and stop saying "lalalalalala..." every time the Dems talk you might just learn something. I'm so sick of you pathetic conservatives and your "what's their plan?" whine I could scream.
"Stay the course" is not a plan.
"We'll stand down when Iraqis stand up," is not a plan, either.
BushCo had no plans when they went into Iraq because they thought it would be a slam dunk. The dangers our troops are facing on daily basis in Iraq exist because Bush, Cheney, Wolfie and Rummy had no plans after, "We'll be greeted as liberators," didn't work out for them.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:15 pmThe main problem with Bush's so-called "plan" is that it relied on the Neocon idea that American Empire can be furthered by pre-emptive war fought by standing armies of occupation. The war on terrorists should be fought by good old law enforcement, spies and with the very occasional aid of Army Special Forces.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:16 pmWhere can I buy a box set of DOMINOES with Made in Viet Nam on the box???
August 16th, 2006 at 5:17 pmThe plan for dealing with the horribly stupid mess Bush created in Iraq is a very different question from how to fight against terrorists. To fix our complete failure in Iraq the U.S. must first attempt to recapture some credibility in the world by admitted that what we've done so far has been an abject failure. Then, we articulate a strategy of eventual and relatively quick withdrawal. Lastly, we consider Balkanizing present-day Iraq into three parts, with some provision for oil money being shared with the Sunni middle.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:25 pmDO SOMETHING TO FIX IT ALREADY!
"and my dream of ending Social Security will not happen."
Roger Dodger
Which is it Roger? 'Cause from here you look like a hypocrite.
I hear this republican spew whenever elections draw nigh. Here's a fix for you Roger: eliminate the caps for social security withholding. Why should someone who makes $200 thou a year have less of an overall tax rate than someone who makes only $80 thou?
August 16th, 2006 at 5:27 pmShouldn't the people responsible for making the mess have to clean it up? Even long after this admin is gone, they need to be cleaning until the job is done. It will be considered community service towards their sentence.
Everyone else has to live by these rules.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:28 pmWhoever Rich Lowry is, it's clear to say that the wingnuts got it wrong for the gazillionth time. Maybe we can keep the civilian casualties in the "new" Vietnam to under a million -- unlike the "old" Viet Nam. Bush wonders why the Iraqis aren't on board with the US. This liberal diagnoses that when you bomb the shit out of a country the people are likely to see through your delusional bullshit.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:30 pmComment by Roger_Roger
Ya I agree. America really does need to stop all the CIA based iran, nicaragua, guatemala, cuba crap and things like Vietnam and Iraq... we should lead people by example by treating our own people how we expect others to treat theres ... then we have room to talk.
However since we did do all these things in the past that means there are many many people that want revenge .. and there are plenty of bad people out there that would be glad to help them realize their dream. So the democrats DO need a plan .. and a good one that includes making up for our wrongs while still killing the people that try to get us back without creating more people bent on revenge.... and if the democrats just want to pull out of iraq and the republicans just want to stay then who the hell is going to figure out how to solve the actual root problems and then fund them and implement them?
August 16th, 2006 at 5:31 pmIt was the right that said Bosnia was another Vietnam. Is this another case of projection? Is lack of capacity for being objective, lack of ability to imagine yourself in other circumstances, and actively accusing your rivals of your own shortcomings a prerequisite for membership in the Republican party?
August 16th, 2006 at 5:31 pmBarfly,
When it comes to Social Security, the program just needs to die already. If you want to know the real number on what the Fed's Deficit is each year read this link thoroughly. You'll then realize that Social Security could potentially ruin this country down the road.
http://www.usatoday.com/printedition/news/20060803/1a_coverart03.art_dom.htm
August 16th, 2006 at 5:32 pmThen; Vietnam = quagmire. Now; Iraq = quagmire. DEJA VU!
August 16th, 2006 at 5:35 pmComment by Roger_Roger
All we have to do is stop congress from stealing the SS money and then the problem would go away. They need to stop spending so much money on extraneous crap AND use modern technology to model out a MUCH more efficient workflow for ALL government agencies with the mandate to accomplish ALL goals as efficiently as humanly possible. Re-engineer the government. No more $500 hammers. What is in the SS bank account? I O Us.... unacceptable.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:36 pmWell said, Spudge #37. We could have won a significant victory in Iraq in the beginning. But the REPUBLICAN administration threw it away by not leaving an Iraqi government framework in place to take over. By disbanding the entire military and guard units, the Iraqi police force, and even the non-political goverment entities such as sanitation, electrical, sewer and water works, and allowing chaos and looting to take place, the American Occupation was set for failure.
What is the plan now? Stay the course? That has worked so well and seems to be the ONLY plan the Bush Administration has had for three years. The elements needed for total victory has passed. Lost and squandered while Bushco searched for nonexistant WMDS and ingored the needs of the Iraqi people who were unemployed, without basic services, and left without a real sense of safety or security due to lack of manpower on the ground, thanks to Rummy and Cheney's battle plan.
The time for real victory is past. There is no going back now and no 'do overs.' If they didn't hate us before, they damned well do know. Its time to say, "Mission Accomplished" for real, call it a day in Iraq, and spend our time and resources by going after and hunting down the real Al Queda terrorists who follow Osama Bin Laden.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:37 pmCan you imagine what Iraq would be like if Bush had not invaded? Hundreds of thousands of lives saved. Republicans cannot have that. Republicans love death and destruction because it makes them feel powerful and because war is more exciting than peace.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:39 pm"May Be Turning Into Bush’s Vietnam"? How about it always was the equivalent of Vietnam.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:39 pmRoger Roger
Please, spare us the "but, if..., then...". The economy is not humming, just look at factory orders, housing starts, core inflation, employment numbers,... Also, who the f*ck is the tax and spend party? Oh, sorry I meant "spend until the other party has to bail us all out" party, why, I believe that is the modern GOP.
As for your two macro fantasies, you show your trolliness. The executive branch IS THE ONLY BRANCH THAT PLANS FOREIGN POLICY. As for "making gay marriage happen", killing the death penalty, and fixing every other social ill (or more aptly, blaming Dems for them all), what country do you live in? Jesus I wish you trolls would touch reality f*cking occasionally!
If you are not f*cking outraged by the one party rule and all of it’s current consequences, then keep voting for the “fiscally responsible, gay marriage loving, roses in Iraq, everyone has healthcare, and killing is so very wrong GOPâ€
August 16th, 2006 at 5:46 pmThis guy is the editor of the National Review? I wouldn't let him be editor of a penny shopper weekly. He's just another Rove-bot who repeats whatever talking points are faxed to him. He couldn't think independently if his life depended on it. And if he did conclude the Iraq war was going badly a year ago he'd never of said so anyway. He'd be too scared what Karl Rove would do to him for speaking out. For christ sake who DIDN'T know the Iraq invasion/occupation would turn into civil war?
August 16th, 2006 at 5:47 pmWhen will we get to hear the Democrat plan for Iraq and the War of terror?
Comment by Roger_Roger — August 16, 2006 @ 4:26 pm
Now the neo-cons want to hear a plan? I thought plans were a bad thing: Bush cultists belittled and berated anyone who asked to see a plan for Iraq from Pres Bush.
Not to mention Pres Bush has treated us to his "plan" since the invasion ("stay the course", whatever that means), without ever moving beyond empty phrases ("as they stand up, we'll stand down") that are great for sloganeering but nor for nation-building.
Of course, if the plan presented includes the obvious step of leaving Iraq to the Iraqi people, it becomes unacceptable. And I thought Iraq was a sovereign nation. Silly me.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:52 pmWe all said it years ago, some of us said it in 2000 when the Chimp got in. ALL OF THIS IS NOT GOOD, THIS BUSH GUY IS SCARY, HOW COME SO MANY DON'T SEE THAT? GOING INTO IRAQ IS NOT A GOOD IDEA, IT WILL BE ANOTHER VEITNAM.
We have all told you so many times.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:55 pmAnd spending $480 billion on an illegal war won't?
August 16th, 2006 at 5:56 pmRegarding Rich Lowry, it is amazing how it has taken him (and others like him) so long, so much devastation, and so many deaths to see the obvious.
War cheerleaders like him are dangerous. They leave little besides destruction, tears in their wake. Their cavalier attitude towards human suffering is shameful.
August 16th, 2006 at 5:57 pmRepubs on Iraq,
"Shut up you Dems we are going in there"
"Oh, guess its not working out so well, so whats your plan now Dems?"
"The plan is to make you clean up your mess, thats it"
August 16th, 2006 at 5:58 pmsomeone mentioned social security - what I want to know, is the reasoning of paying into it STOPPING AFTER $90,000. WTF is that?
August 16th, 2006 at 6:02 pmWhen it comes to Social Security, the program just needs to die already.
Then I want EVERY SINGLE DIME I have paid into it for the last 30 years!
August 16th, 2006 at 6:04 pmSpudge; Nearly ALL of our GOP "leaders" cut and ran from Vietnam.
August 16th, 2006 at 6:09 pmNearly ALL of our GOP “leaders†cut and ran from Vietnam.
Comment by Ho Chi Minh
No, thanks to the Texas National Guard, deferments, and lots of $$ to stay in college, nearly all of them were never there in the first place.
August 16th, 2006 at 6:14 pmRoger,
Think Progress has come up with a plan they are calling Strategic Redeployment although I don't know how many Democratic Senators and Representative's have or will jump on board.
It is important to keep in mind that Democratic plans for Iraq have been ignored and shot down in the Senate including one that simply asked that we pull troops out of Iraq at some point (with no date specified for withdrawl).
August 16th, 2006 at 6:21 pmWhat a bunch of great progressive responses in this thread. The passion, the logic, the strategy - all top notch.
Roger_Roger: The first Democratic plan is already in the works, talk and think before you act. Listen to as many people as possible to cover all the angles, not just to your sycophants. That's what I think this blog site is all about. The best plans will come with true discussion and debate, which BushCo has shut down most dramatically.
August 16th, 2006 at 6:25 pmJoe 6; I stand corrected.
August 16th, 2006 at 6:27 pmOn March 20, 2003, the day we invaded Iraq, I drew a huge bulls eye in the center of the large U.S. map which was on my office wall. Why? Because I believed then, and I believe now, that such an invasion would ultimately lead to far more than the civil war that is evolving now in Iraq. Indeed, I believed then and I believe today that it could lead to the utter destruction of my country.
August 16th, 2006 at 6:37 pmThe issue as I see it is that America is torn between staying the course and cutting and running. Unfortunately whatever it does will be extremely difficult for itself and the world. However, even those that advocate staying the course may realise that this does not neccessarily correspond with forgiving Bush and those American corporations and individuals who cruelly advocated a war (fought by other people's children) simply for some sort of personal gain.
August 16th, 2006 at 6:55 pmThinking and planning were never GOP strong points. Rascist, demeaning, chickenhawk rabble rousing is their forte. Any student of history could have told you this war in Iraq was a big mistake, and they did. The Italians, french, English, Germans all tried similiar "conquests" and all failed. Hell, the Russians tried it in Afghanistan and WE fueled the plan that beat them up to the point the USSR collapsed. Ignoring ALL this evidence BushCo does the exact same bonehead thing, and is now surprised the outcome is the same?
August 16th, 2006 at 6:57 pm"Lowry is inching closer and closer to the reality-based community, but in doing so, he wants us to forget what he told us in the past."
I do not support his politics but the above is not a fair statement. His previous speculations are on record for the world to review just as you have done in your post.
August 16th, 2006 at 6:58 pmFaiz - YOU'RE NO PROGRESSIVE - -A true Prog would welcome Lowery's shift as an "evolution". In short, Progs seem impossible to please.... Thank you, Faiz, for confirming you are nothing more than a political hack!!
Tooodles...
August 16th, 2006 at 7:21 pmThe deaths in Vietnam did not all come in one year...they actually started slower then Iraq. Below are the casualties by year.
1957 - 1
1958 - 0
1959 - 2
1960 - 5
1961 - 16
1962 - 53
1963 - 118
1964 - 206
1965 - 1,863
1966 - 6,144
1967 - 11,153
1968 - 16,589
1969 - 11,614
1970 - 6,083
1971 - 2,357
1972 - 640
1973 - 168
1974 - 178
1975 - 160
1976 - 77
1977 - 96
1978 - 447
1979 - 148
1980-1995 - 66
TOTAL DEATHS - 58,178
August 16th, 2006 at 7:25 pm#75,
Wow, in 1968 there were the most deaths, the height of the conflict as far as the US was concerned. Also the year I was born.
August 16th, 2006 at 7:48 pmthink progress has the right approach
why waste time with opposing rhetoric when all you have to do
is present a little historical review for whatever be the topic at hand
on what various right-wing politicians and pundits have said
during the period 1994-2006.
during this time the right-wing has created
a devastating library of verbal recordings
demon stating their poor judgments about critical domestic and foreign policy problems we face (ideologically-based rather than reality-based)
and
the resulting ineffective or damaging government policies they have enacted.
so,
why bother with anti-right-wing rhetoric.
just line up a bunch of little histories of what they have said and done in the past decade regarding this or that issue
and put it out for the public to read.
good work
think progress.
August 16th, 2006 at 7:59 pmA true Prog would welcome Lowery’s shift as an “evolutionâ€.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 16, 2006 @ 7:21 pm
I do welcome Lowry's change of mind, although I believe your dear leader might characterise it as "flip-flopping".
The only aspect I lament is the amount of time and destruction it took for him to open his eyes to the obvious.
So, since you have posited this event as an evolution, are you ready to evolve and agree that Iraq is becoming another Vietnam?
August 16th, 2006 at 8:22 pmTo which other wars is Lowry referring? Desert Storm? No, because that was successfully carried out from a plan designed by competent leadership. Bosnia? No, because that was also successfully carried out from a plan designed by competent leadership. Rich (or conservative proxy), submit the quotes by liberals referring to any other war as another Vietnam.
August 16th, 2006 at 8:38 pm#4
Roger_Roger
Late to the the post and I see others have weighed in ... but this caught my attention.
To say:
" So Bush's plan is not working " and then move on to all of that other stuff is a bit "cavalier" - to put it lightly.
It is like me telling you not to drain a fifth of Jack Daniels knowing you are planning to drive a car.
You ignore my advice - you crash the car, kill people and destroy property.
And then you say:
"... Well, I guess my plan didn't work ... but, what are you going to do to make this all better ? Unless you have a way to make this all better - well then you can't say anything ... "
With all due respect - that's just silly.
In this case, the first thing I would do is to make sure you don't get anywhere near the wheel of a car any time in the near future.
And I'm sure you are following the analogy - the first thing we must do politically is make sure that the neocons and the chicken hawks that are currently nesting in the republican party are kept as far away from power as possible.
Retired General John M. Shalikashvili - former Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff
and
Retired General Tony McPeak - Chief of staff of the U.S. Air Force during Desert Storm
both left the republican party as a result of Bush's decision to wage this war.
If you are serious about voting against the republicans this November, then you should make your case to the other republicans that you know.
Otherwise, this time next year you will have the opportunity to write ... " So Bush's plan still isn't working - and, in fact, it has gotten a lot worse ... "
August 16th, 2006 at 8:54 pmSo, since you have posited this event as an evolution, are you ready to evolve and agree that Iraq is becoming another Vietnam?
Comment by Gregor Samsa — August 16, 2006 @ 8:22 pm
August 16th, 2006 at 9:38 pmDon't hold your breath gregor-MA is back under HIS rock. I do think that MA should get a little atta-a-boy for posting tonight. His party is going down in flames and HE sees a pony under the pile of horse $hit that bush created.
When will we get to hear the Democrat plan for Iraq and the War of terror?
To date, I only hear what Bush did wrong. I am very unhappy with the Repug’s but what are the Dems offering?? Still waiting………..
Comment by Roger_Roger — August 16, 2006 @ 4:26 pm
Lamont covered all this and his plan. That's why he won the election. One way to win is to fight terrorism in the first place instead of occupying a soverign nation. We have no right to be there. Bremer was sent to Iraq to carve up all the resources and handle all the lucrative rebuilding contracts, thus cutting out the Iraqis. Then we wonder why they're so pissed off. The whole thing was a giant resource grab and a "get the taxpayer to pay for the war and reconstruction so we and our buddies make obscene profits" con job. It is sickening. These men have commited treason and should be shot. It is called blood money. Bob Dylan wrote a song about these bloodsuckers, The Masters of War."
August 16th, 2006 at 9:43 pm[...] The “Convenient Wisdom” (the wisdom of convenience) is that it’s just Iraq: National Review Editor: Iraq May Be Turning Into Bush’s Vietnam [...]
August 16th, 2006 at 9:45 pmLast one to the Green Zone gets whacked. Last one on the Helicopter turn out the light.
August 16th, 2006 at 9:49 pmthank you kasinca
the facts you list say so much for themselves and for the present.
i had no ideas of the pattern of loss.
thank you
p.s. i would say thank you kasinka , # 75, but, with me, that style of address has an eerie, treblinka/cold-war sound to it. very uncomfortable to type.
August 16th, 2006 at 10:53 pmYou’ll then realize that Social Security could potentially ruin this country down the road.
http://www.usatoday.com/ printedition/ news/ 20060803/ 1a_coverart03.art_dom.htm
Comment by Roger_Roger — August 16, 2006
Potentially? Man, that's weak. It sounds like the talk of a
"potential" democracy being installed by an invading force, even though it's never been successfully done.
"NOW IS THE TIME DEMS!!!! Stop walking and stop talking!!
You offer no solutions, yet rag on dems for the same thing? I gave you a proposal, and your answer? "When it comes to Social Security, the program just needs to die already." What an intellectually bankrupt response. It shows just how little interest you have in finding real solutions. That you cannot bring yourself to debate the issue tells me you swallow think-tank spew without critical thought. Lifting the caps would make the program solvent for decades - but asking the rich to pay their fair share doesn't occur to you. Why is that?
So, to recap: a liberal dem proposed a plan, and you ran away. See what I mean about your spew? We'll see if you can debate the issue today, as I will be tracking you across threads, and asking you the same questions. Will you run away again?
August 17th, 2006 at 3:33 amthat's nothing, maybe he should still run for president? As they say, better late then never, like Bush himself.
August 17th, 2006 at 4:25 amthe problem with little Right Wing pussies like Lowery is that they are congenitally incapable of admitting that they are completely wrong about their political adversaries.
August 17th, 2006 at 4:27 amAmerica's economy is a bubble economy, and it is a pretty pathetic bubble right now. The only sector with any growth in America's job market is the service sector, new jobs have failed to keep pace with population growth and more importantly, you owe China massive amounts of money and analysts are already worried about the pace of growth in China's economy (Stating it is growing so fast that it is going to end up melting down at a point.)
America's economy is heading for a real shitstorm. The price of petrol is up, wage increases have not kept pace with inflation and a whole lot of your industries have lost jobs and their ability to compete with those of other nations. Currently factories are opening in Canada because health care is cheaper and the people are better educated then in America. The national debt, contrary to popular rightwing belief, is going to have to be paid with interest one of these days, and it is a force which has destroyed countries before. Feudal France died because it couldn't service its debt, as did Russia, and the Soviet Union.
No Child Left behind is a failure, and America's literacy rate is shrinking not growing. University grants and loans have been cut under the Bush administration and FEMA is at the weakest it has ever been. Hurricane Katrina is an example of a historic cock up, and in order to believe the Whitehouse BS on whose fault the whole mess was, you have to believe that NO has never suffered a national disaster before. The lines of authority that were the chief sticking point Brown was complaining about had already been long since laid.
There is not a single issue on which GW has had any success on. Foriegn affairs? Screw-up. Even Poland (As in, "Remember Poland") has pointed to Iraq as being the reason it won't fight by America's side again. The enviroment? Cut funding to researching alternative fuels, and divert the rest to the same people whose interests are least served by discovering an alternative. Destroy ANWR. Unemployment? Figure is rendered meaningless when you dig a little further. Spending? Adjusted for inflation Bush has the third worst deficit in the history of America, only being topped by WWII, adjusted for inflation he has the top four. Not good coming off of Clinton's record breaking surplus.
And don't try blaming Clinton for that one, Bush has had five years to screw up in.
Terrorism? The worst terrorist attack in America's history? Bush. The first islamic terrorist attack in English history? Bush. Just two examples.
Think of one issue where Bush was right? There aren't any. Lowry’s position on this being the first time Liberals have ever been right? Shit if this last five years is the result of Bush getting everything else right by the rightwing it certainly makes me wonder just what the rightwing considers getting it wrong.
August 17th, 2006 at 6:12 amIf Reagan was still around Bush ,could get some advice on how to "Cut and Run" like he did in '83, in Beruit! That goes for Tricky Dicky too,"Cutting and Running in Nam! Oh ya,come to think of it ,Poppy sure left a big mess for Clinton to clean up in Somolia! Like Father, Like son!
August 17th, 2006 at 7:29 am“PERVERSIONS TO THE IMPERIALIST AMERICAN PIGSâ€
( a day in the life of a Baghdad family - Bashir, a young man, enters his family’s apartment and greets his father.)
Bashir: Greetings Father, Praise be to Allah.
August 17th, 2006 at 9:28 amFather: Praise be to Allah.
Bashir: It’s hot in here. Did we have any electricity today?
Father: One hour, tops. May Allah rain perversions on the Imperialist American Pigs!
Bashir: That sucks. A thousand perversions to the Infidels.
Father: What did you do today?
Bashir: Praise be to Allah, I put out one roadside IED and helped prepare a suicider for a Mosque mission at evening prayers.
Father: Praise be to Allah, but did you stop by the Coalition Forces Outreach Center like your Mother asked you to?
Bashir: Yes, Papa I did.
Father: And did you tell them that death squads have harassing and threatening your Mother, sisters and our neighbors?
Bashir: Yes Papa I did. They said that they already knew and intended to step up patrols. They were very sympathetic.
Father: A thousand perversions to the Imperialist Occupiers.
Bashir: Praise be to Allah, a thousand perversions.
If this is liberals' first ever correct Iraq war diagnosis, it's because the diagnosis was made years ago.
August 17th, 2006 at 11:01 amSo very tired of the "Defeat/Retreat" mantra. All it accomplishes is the squashing of discussion on how to rectify the situation. The tactics of denial are all these idiots have left...an actual discussion on what's really happening in Iraq reduces all 'stay the course' arguments to mere swiss cheese. The large number of people who probably realize this but still aren't willing to admit it because of knee-jerk 'patriotism' are just as destructive to the current situation as the Bush defenders.
August 17th, 2006 at 11:07 amI think Iraq is more like the Soviet experience in Afghanistan than our experience in Vietnam.
August 17th, 2006 at 8:32 pmWhat is the problem with cutting one's losses, and not asking more young Americans to sacrifice their lives in a war that should not have begun in the first place?
August 18th, 2006 at 12:35 am[...] National Review says that “Iraq war liberals” may be making their first-ever correct diagnosis. But why has it taken everyone this long to realize this? There are several great comments on Think Progress. Posted by goodwilldrums Filed in Politics [...]
August 18th, 2006 at 1:29 amBush never had a clue, all he saw was oil, oil, and more oil
August 18th, 2006 at 9:43 pm[...] National Review says that “Iraq war liberals” may be making their first-ever correct diagnosis. But why has it taken everyone this long to realize this? There are several great comments on Think Progress. [...]
August 23rd, 2006 at 1:27 amLiberals are idiots. I wouldn't waste my time in "so-called" debating them.
August 24th, 2006 at 1:52 pm