U.S. Commander: Lebanon Conflict May Have Fueled Attacks On U.S. Troops
U.S. Commander: Lebanon Conflict May Have Fueled Attacks On U.S. Troops
One of the effects of the Iraq war has been to encourage and embolden terrorist actors in the Middle East. It has inspired growing solidarity between Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria, and Iran, among others. The New York Times reported in the early stages of the fighting in Lebanon that the solidarity between Iraqi and Hezbollah fighters could result in increasing attacks against American troops:
The conflict already has had some effect in Iraq. On Friday, the firebrand Shiite cleric Moktada al-Sadr said in Baghdad that Iraqis would not “sit by with folded hands” while Israel strikes at Lebanon, signaling a possible increase in attacks from his militia on Americans in Iraq.
Now, at least one U.S. commander is reporting that the Israeli-Hezbollah conflict did indeed cause a spike in attacks against U.S. troops:
Rocket attacks on a U.S. base in eastern Baghdad doubled during the month-long war between Israel and Hezbollah, a U.S. Army commander said this week, echoing concerns expressed by other American officials about Iranian support for Shiite militants in Iraq. Lt. Col. Mark A. Bertolini of the Fourth Infantry Division said the increase in Katyusha rocket attacks on Forward Operating Base Rustamiyah seemed related to the fighting in Lebanon.
As Slate’s John Dickerson writes, the question Americans should be asking is “whether Bush’s policies are inspiring the people who want to kill us.â€
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If you question Bush you embolden the terrorists.
Ah, Kim Jong Il and Saddam Hussein would be proud of that political rhetoric.
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 1:45 pmHey we sent 7000 extra troops to Baghdad a month ago because Chimpy said that would “solve” the increased attacks. So I guess the “US Army commander” is absolutely wrong, there isn’t ANY increase in attacks because the Administration “solved the problem” with the extra troops. Aren’t we all lucky the Administration is so smart, it’s not like all those people who insisted the increased number of troops wouldn’t work, what the hell did they know.
August 19th, 2006 at 1:56 pmWho could have predicted that destablizing the Middle East even more would put or troops in harms way?
August 19th, 2006 at 1:56 pmCertainly a brilliant military strategy to put large concentrations of troops into one contained area especially as the violence escalates.
They are trying to destroy the miltary.
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 2:00 pmOf course Bush’s policies have acted as a catalyst for violence in the Middle East. People such as independent journalist Nir rosen and retired General William Odom have agreed that it is the U.S. presence that has caused so much of the bloodshed in the Middle East. U.S. troops have to be extricxated from Iraq and the region [which includes, to use Murtha's expression, over the horizon] as rapidly as possibly in order to insure that more troops do not end up dead and seriously maimed and crippled, bedcause of this administration’s deluded idea that they are to be sacrificed for some bizarre noble cause instead of what it actually is, which is a lost cause. All the while, the Iraqis are paying the price for the exacerbating presence of the U.S. military in their homeland.
August 19th, 2006 at 2:00 pmAbout that WWII comparison.
The United States has been involved in Iraq for 1249 days from March 20, 2003, first bombs fell in Baghdad in a failed attempt to kill Saddam.
1249 days into U.S. involvement in World War 2, Germany surrendered.
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 2:12 pmNewton’s third law: law of reciprocal actions. Duh.
August 19th, 2006 at 2:43 pmWhat enemy does not exist, they will invent. They will spin dark tales about the enemy’s bloodthirsty ways, rendering monsters from the 1% threat.
See? There IS a terror training land, and so what if the U.S. created it? Had to have terrorists, or somebody would have to leave Full Spectrum Dominance behind.
August 19th, 2006 at 2:43 pmComment by GSD — August 19, 2006 @ 2:12 pm
August 19th, 2006 at 2:45 pmGood statistic.
1249 days… that’s an amazing stat, if accurate, and I’m not saying it isn’t. Just amazing.
The comparison boggles the mind.
This information better not get out, or we’re likely to need a dose of homemade terra to snap us back into line!
August 19th, 2006 at 2:49 pmPresident Bush has now been found responsible for the Martian attack against the Venutians accordring to Hillary Rodham Clinton.
If only President Bush had ignored the 9/11 attack, we would not have had more than 2000 American boys killed in a foreign war that never involved us. There would never have been another Al-Queda or Hizbollah or PLO or PFLP attack on America and the world of antions would be in love with America.
If FDR had never attacked Japan and later Germany, we would have moved right along like nothing was happening to the world with in which we live.
How dumb some of the leftist nuts sound on this forum.
August 19th, 2006 at 2:51 pmHere we go again with the spin and blame. Our troops have been attacked since we invaded Iraq. The chaos that Bush has caused is not the reason. We are ordering a country how to run itself and we have put officials in office that follow the orders of Bush/Cheney policy. There is a civil war going on in Iraq and our troops are in the middle just being picked off like duck hunting. To blame Lebanon is as stupid as blaming Africa as there is a war going on there too. The lies just keep coming from this corrupt group.
August 19th, 2006 at 2:55 pmBush is not responsible for any Martian attacks, but he is the face of the failed neocon Middle East policies. Osama bin Laden and not Saddam Hussein killed Americans on US soil.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:01 pmI’d rather be a dumb good guy than a bat sh!t crazy bad guy. You would be the latter.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:14 pmOne of the effects of the Iraq war has been to encourage and embolden terrorist actors in the Middle East.
This is a global war on terror. The terrorists just aren’t going to back down like the Dems want to do. They need to be killed over there, so they don’t come over here.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:22 pmThe chaos that Bush has caused is not the reason.
Bush has caused? The terrorists are making their stand in Iraq. They realize how high the stakes are by allowing a democracy there.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:24 pmOh please. If you think anybody here is going to fall for that line of BS, you are sadly mistaken.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:25 pmLet’s put it another way, recent polls and observation of the news media outside of the US shows EVERYONE hates Georgie boy. Now Georgie opens his stupid fat mouth and says “bring it on” and sends Americans to enforce his evil unintelligible world destrying foreign policy. Any doubt Bush is responsible for Americans getting killed and hatred of the US?
August 19th, 2006 at 3:26 pmOsama bin Laden and not Saddam Hussein killed Americans on US soil.
Bin Laden was behind those planes?
Hussein harbored and trained terrorists in Iraq. This is a global war on terror and it just doen’t include Al Qeaada.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:26 pmExcept for the 23 who were caught in the latest terrorist plot. Except for the ones involved in the attacks in Madrid, London and Egypt.
Yeah, right. We ain’t biting on this one either.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:27 pmrecent polls and observation of the news media outside of the US shows EVERYONE hates Georgie boy.
When 80% of Republicans approve of Bush and 0% of Dems do, you get the approval rating that Bush has now. It doens’t mean anything other than Dems are filled with hate.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:28 pmUh, yeah.
Yeah, because a strict secularist would want to make good friends with a religious extremist. Yeah, that is like me wanting to be friends with you.
I sure hope it does. You might want a refresher course on grammar.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:29 pmHow dumb some of the leftist nuts sound on this forum.
lol, yes they do. But let’s try to work them to change thier minds. Some of them are capable of independent thought, maybe.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:30 pmThank you for proving that Democrats make up the real majority in America.
Now, qualify. We hate Bush, not everything.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:31 pmBin Laden was behind those planes?
Uh, yeah.
I should have been more clear. Bin Laden was in the cockpit of any of those planes?
August 19th, 2006 at 3:31 pmYou might as well go somewhere else and try. We have heard all of your lame ass talking points and they are tired.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:32 pmExcept for the 23 who were caught in the latest terrorist plot. Except for the ones involved in the attacks in Madrid, London and Egypt.
Exactly. This is a global war on terror. And it just doesn’t include terrorists that are directly affiliated with Al QAEeda. It also includes the type that Saddam was training.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:33 pmOf course he wasn’t. That was 15 Saudis. Bin Laden wasn’t in the cockpit on 9/11, just as Bush wasn’t in the cockpit during Vietnam.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:34 pmThe democracy in Iraq is a fundamentalist Shiite democracy.
It bears no real resemblance to a Western and secular democracy.
Of course, Iraq is 60% Shia. But millons of Iraqis went to the polls and elected the goverment they wanted and the constitution that they wanted, rather than being forced to swallow a tyrant like Saddam Hussien.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:35 pmMe:
You:
Of course you left out what I was responding to, which was this dumb ass comment:
Don’t say exactly, when we are not talking about the same thing.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:36 pmSo, you think that a Shira based Fundamental Islamic democracy is good? Then why the hell did we run the Taliban out of town? Then why are we starting sh!t with Iran.
You can’t have it both ways.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:38 pmNot to mention the democratically elected Hezzbola in Lebanon and Palestine. Do you not get that spreading democracy may not be a good thing?
August 19th, 2006 at 3:39 pmOn 9/11, nearly three thousand people were murdered and hundreds of billons of dollars in damage were incurred.
And yet Dems forget we are in a war on terror.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:39 pmDo you not get that spreading democracy may not be a good thing?
Of course it’s a good thing. People live to be free. But people have to live with the consequences of the people they elect.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:41 pmSo, you think that a Shira based Fundamental Islamic democracy is good?
Iraq is a unity goverment.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:41 pmNo we haven’t we are the only ones focused on it. That is why we want to ge the troops out of Iraq, so they can be used to fight the Global War on Terror. You may believe in the fly paper theory that all of the terrorists are flocking to Iraq to die, but that shows that you 1) under estimate your enemy and 2) have no military experience.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:42 pmYeah, tell that to the number 3 guy in Iraq, you know the Sunni one who has turned in his resignation.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:43 pm9/11 + Iraq = Bush’s Fundamentalist Islamic Iraq
The people of Iraq are muslims, shia, sunni and kurd. They shouldn’t have a government that looks like them, but rather they should have a dictator like Saddam forced on them, with rape rooms to keep people in line?
August 19th, 2006 at 3:45 pmThat is why we want to ge the troops out of Iraq, so they can be used to fight the Global War on Terror.
That makes no sense since they are already in Iraq killing terrorists.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:46 pmYeah, tell that to the number 3 guy in Iraq, you know the Sunni one who has turned in his resignation.
It’s a work in progress. Another Sunni will take his place.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:47 pmJerry, sign up and fight your war
August 19th, 2006 at 3:52 pmDude, are you mildly retarded. Sunni and Shia are types of Muslims.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:53 pmFighting insurgents is not killing terrorists, Mr. Rumsfeld.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:54 pmJerry at # 16 believes that “the terrorists are making their stand in Iraq.” Does he honestly believe this to be true when in reality, as Congressman Murtha has repeatedly pointed out, the terrorists only comprise 7 per cent of those who are aligned against the coalition forces in Iraq? To emphasize, that figure is SEVEN, not seventy. Congressman Murtha has also mentioned, on a number of occasions, that terrorists are located in sixty other countries around the world. Does Jerry seriously advocate that the United States invade and occupy those countries in order to somehow eradicate the terrorists? Not exactly the best way to win the hearts and minds of people around the world, never mind the people of Iraq and Afghanistan, whose citizens are still being terrorized, not so much by the terrorists, but by the less than benevolent presence of the United States.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:55 pmYou:
Me:
You:
So, then it is not a Unity Government. Do you know what the word IS means.
August 19th, 2006 at 3:57 pmBoy, you’re not doing a good job of talking sense into us using 2003 talking points bud. Head over to redstate and get some current ones.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:01 pmAmericans deserve a fundamentalist Shiite republic which has extremely close and long standing ties to Iran, a so-called axis of evil?
It’s not. It’s unity goverment, shia, sunni and kurd muslims.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:03 pmFighting insurgents is not killing terrorists, Mr. Rumsfeld.
They are killing scores of terrorists over there in Iraq. Don’t cut and run from the war on terror.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:04 pmJerry at # 16 believes that “the terrorists are making their stand in Iraq.†Does he honestly believe this to be true
It is true. The terrorists are making their stand in Iraq, not Afghanistan. They are getting captured and killed in Iraq. The terrorists don’t want a democratic Iraq, and nither do the democrats here.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:05 pmFaiz’ Copy – “As Slate’s John Dickinson writes, the question Americans should be asking is “whether Bush’s policies are inspiring the people who want to kill us.—
Maybe John or Faiz could explain:
What events BEFORE 9/11 did the ‘evil” United States perpertrate?? Support of Israel?? Buying Oil??? Not belonging to the Muslim religion??
Happy Saturday to all…
August 19th, 2006 at 4:06 pmHead over to redstate and get some current ones.
Or I can stay over here and catch the lastest Democrat speaking points.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:07 pmAnd they love to chant Death to America!!
So does the liberal left in this country.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:09 pmJerry, sign up and fight your war
Democrats want to retreat from the war on terror, because they are isolationists. This will embloden more attacks on this country.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:11 pmSpudge,
I guess Jerry hasn’t been following the news, like when even a Kurdish judge during Hussein’s trial said to him “let your friends in the mujahedin attack the American camps and not blow themselves up in the streets and public places and cafes and markets”.
Or like when it was reported the vast majority of insurgents are ordinary Iraqis “radicalized almost exclusively by the coalition invasion.”
Or like when Iraqi leaders asked for a timetable for the US to withdraw and said “insurgents should not be labeled as terrorists if their operations do not target innocent civilians or institutions”
August 19th, 2006 at 4:12 pmLooks like they are making a stand in Afhganistan too.
Four US troops killed today.
Bush and Rumsfeld have had five years to whup the Taliban and yet the small group of zealots in cave continue killing Americans.
http://www.nbc6.net/news/9704983/detail.html
What a disgrace.
Notice anything about the trendlines in this chart of US/Coalition casualties in Afghanistan?
Period US Other Total
+ 2006 74 43 117
+ 2005 99 30 129
+ 2004 52 6 58
+ 2003 48 9 57
+ 2002 48 20 68
+ 2001 12 0 12
-GSD
In Israel they are debating the post Lebanon attack results. In the US Bush/Coulter Republicans use fear tactics to discourage democractic debates. Why do Bush/Coulter Republicans hate democracy?
August 19th, 2006 at 4:18 pmGregor, when Iraqis can stand themselves up and provide for their own security, we will start to draw down our forces. But until then, we can’t leave the Iraqi people to fend off the terrorists themselves.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:19 pmIn the US Bush/Coulter Republicans use fear tactics to discourage democractic debates.
You mean like fear tactics that Dems use that Bush is to blame for 9/11?
August 19th, 2006 at 4:23 pmJerry did not bother to address the other question that I had directed at him. Again, as Congressman Murtha has taken pains to point out, terrorists are in sixty other countries around the world. Does Jerry advocate that Bush and Rumsfeld order U.S. troops to invade and occupy these countries, as the U.S. has done to Iraq? Does he believe that this would be the best way to win the hearts and minds of the people who live in other parts of the world? As one may have noticed, that strategy has not turned out too well in Iraq or Afghanistan. Unfortunately, for so many people like Jerry, war is simply an abstract concept, devoid of the fact that people’s guts are getting ripped out and limbs that are being blown away from a soldier’s and civilian’s body, all for a lost cause, known only in the dark and possibly alcoholic confines of George W. Bush. One strongly suspects if his daughters had to endure that hell in that abattoir known as Iraq, then Bush might actually allow the word withdrawal, if not immediate withdrawal withdrawal, to pass from his corrupted lips.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:29 pmAttacks on Lebanon increase attacks on American troops in Iraq. If you think that is bad, just wait until we attack Iran. Our Baghdad days will be over. Iran will immediately send rockets into Baghdad and into all our Iraq bases. Only a fool would think that Iran doesn’t know the location of our bases and doesn’t have the military might to destroy these bases. Iran has had many years of opportunity to develop a strategy to defend its nation. The Isrealis are learning that Hezbollah has also had years of opportunity to prepare for an invasion by Isreal.
Jerry – Bush is responsible to 9/11 because of his failure to act prior to 9/11. If Bush had read the memo and followed through with the proper safety and security measures, 9/11 would be nothing more than a date on a caledar.
And to mighty aphrodite – cup of noodles to you and be careful crossing streets.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:31 pmDoes Jerry advocate that Bush and Rumsfeld order U.S. troops to invade and occupy these countries, as the U.S. has done to Iraq?
No, but a democracy, which Iraq is becoming, in the heart of the middle east will address some of the root causes of terrorism. Hopefully, democracy will spread to the other nations in the middle east and Iraq will be a beacon of light. This is not going to happen over night or quickly.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:34 pmIf you think that is bad, just wait until we attack Iran.
But we can’t let Iran get nukes. Ahmedinijad already said he doesn’t want to see Israel exist.
Bush is responsible to 9/11 because of his failure to act prior to 9/11.
And that’s a fear tactic used by the Dems. Democrat talking points.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:36 pmThey need to be killed over there, so they don’t come over here.
jerry – hate to be the one to tell you this, but they are mostly likely already over here. Remember? Bush did nothing to secure our borders thereby.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:38 pmOops sorry for the trunkation in previous post.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:39 pmWhat events BEFORE 9/11 did the ‘evil†United States perpertrate?? Support of Israel?? Buying Oil??? Not belonging to the Muslim religion??
Ah, Shah of Iran
August 19th, 2006 at 4:40 pmAh, sold arms, nerve gas to Saddam to kill Iranians
Ah, armed Israel to the dtrement of the Arab nations in the region
There’s more but that’s more than enough….
Remember? Bush did nothing to secure our borders thereby.
Funny thing you say that because the Democrat senate committee recently had to pull down one of their ads because it demonized hispanics and compared them to Al Qaeeda. The Dems are doing a great job appealing to hispanic voters.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:41 pm“No, but a democracy, which Iraq is becoming, in the heart of the middle east will address some of the root causes of terrorism.”
Ah yes, the Grand Do-Gooder Theory.
Let’s see, what was the one other Arab and Muslim country in the Middle East that just embraced democracy…Could it have been Lebanon? The nation that was just attacked by the other democracy in the region.
So doesn’t that send a bad message? Turn into a democracy and get blown back twenty years by Israel?
Pathetic.
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 4:43 pm#71 – “Bush did nothing to secure our borders thereby. ”
Comment by Coffins draped with flags
******Like PROGS wouldn’t be SCREAMING bloody murder if the borders were sewn up tight……Hypocrite….
August 19th, 2006 at 4:44 pmAnd yet Dems forget we are in a war on terror.
Well, this Dem is going to join the war on terror. No more blood thirsty, scary movies for me. Way too much terror going on.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:44 pmJerry sounds like he was just diapatched by the RNC to cover the Think Progress beat. Maybe Seixxon is on vacation and Jerry is subbing for him.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:47 pmDear Granite State Dem – Just a short time ago, freedom loving people were hailing the re-emergence of Lebanon (kicking Syrian thugs out is a GOOD thing…) BUT Lebanon is a PERFECT example of what happens with a weakened country. They lacked the will and the strength to kick Hezbollah to the curb.
The “nation” of Hezbollah was attacked and their supply line through Lebanon was crippled. Unfortunately, there are Hezbollah members left standing….. Sadly, the Lebanese are occupied once more – by proxies of Syria and Iran.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:50 pmCould it have been Lebanon? The nation that was just attacked by the other democracy in the region.
Hezbollah was attacked. And Hezbollah caused this crisis. The UN should have enforced its resolution 1559.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:51 pmWell, this Dem is going to join the war on terror.
Campaiging for Lamont doesn’t count. He’s a weakling on national security.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:53 pmJerry sounds like he was just diapatched by the RNC to cover the Think Progress beat.
Nope. Just enjoying my saturday afternoon with some “open minded” liberals.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:54 pmThank goodness our friends and allies did not desert us during our civil war.”-comment by Mighty Aphrodite-August3, 2006 @3:22 pm
August 19th, 2006 at 4:55 pm
Like PROGS wouldn’t be SCREAMING bloody murder if the borders were sewn up tight……Hypocrite….
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Well no they wouldn’t actually they have been calling for it for 5 years while Bush did nothing.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:55 pmWell no they wouldn’t actually they have been calling for it for 5 years while Bush did nothing.
Dems treat illegal immigration as a chance to get new votes. Look at Busby in California calling on illegals to vote for her.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:57 pmWell Mighty Moron, ready to concede? Own up to it like a REAL man.
Tough talk, from a pip-squeak.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:58 pmBush is responsible to 9/11 because of his failure to act prior to 9/11.
And that’s a fear tactic used by the Dems. Democrat talking points.
Comment by Jerry — August 19, 2006 @ 4:36 pm
No Jerry – you are wrong. This is not a fear tactic, it is a fact. But then again, fools like you never let facts get in the way of the truth.
August 19th, 2006 at 4:59 pmWell Jerry, immigration is what this country was founded on, however, if you don’t want people to immigrate here make it economically in their best interest to stay in their own countries. It’s a lot easier than not funding a giant fence across Mexico.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:00 pm#74 – that was Rick Santorums website that you are referring to.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:00 pmBut then again, fools like you never let facts get in the way of the truth.
Says the delusional man spouting Democratic talking points like they are fact.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:02 pmif you don’t want people to immigrate here make it economically in their best interest to stay in their own countries.
I’m for legal immigration. I do want people to come here, just do it legally.
I’m for heavy corporate sanctions for anybody who hires an illegal. This may dry up the desire for labor and the illegal may not want to come here.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:04 pm#74 – that was Rick Santorums website that you are referring to.
No. It was the DSCC ad that demonized hispanics and compared them to Al QOEEDa that Democrats took down out of shame.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:06 pmThank goodness our friends and allies did not desert us during our civil war.â€-comment by Mighty Aphrodite-August3, 2006 @3:22 pm
Mighty, Please do not deviate from the talking point that in Iraq there is no civil war. use the term “conservatively correct” term “sectarian strife”.
-Karl Rove
Bush/Coulter Republican Ministry of Disinformation
August 19th, 2006 at 5:09 pmJerry made the troll list at post #25. He broke the blahg speed record for making the list.
Great. At least I know you’re reading my posts. Hard to ignore, huh? Maybe you’ll think about something else besides Democrat speaking points and open your mind a little.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:09 pmMighty, Please do not deviate from the talking point that in Iraq there is no civil war.
It’s not a civil war in Iraq.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:10 pmSee. Rovebots call it shameful for democrats to use Osama Bin Forgotten’s image in a political ad attacking illegal immigrants. But they cheer when it is used against Democrats like Max Cleland and Hillary Clinton.
Why do you hate America?
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 5:11 pmDear jerry and mighty (herm>aphrodite -
Tell me how your lives have improved since the REPUBLICANS took control of the government? Has gas gotten cheaper? How about your health insurance? Are you getting better health coverage at lower costs? Are you working more hours and enjoying it less? Has your job or someone you know’s job, been “outsourced”? Maybe you have some more benefits to share with us than I have listed.
Please do let us know what improvements the Republicans have provided to the American people. Inquiring minds need to know.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:11 pmJerry, do you know what the definition of a civil war is?
-GSD
The answer is not, “not what is happening in Iraq”.
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 5:12 pmSee. Rovebots call it shameful for democrats to use Osama Bin Forgotten’s image in a political ad attacking illegal immigrants.
Hispanic groups were outraged over it and the Dems were forced to take it down with shame.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:13 pm#91 – dixie blood – love your list. I’m just having some fun playing with these little minds. It is so easy to predict the trolls behavior and it is so easy to get them to react.
I’ll stop playing around. I did post some serious thoughts earlier.
Time to go prep for dinner. Chat with you all later.
Vote for a new direction in November – vote Democrat.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:14 pmJerry, do you know what the definition of a civil war is?
-GSD
The answer is not, “not what is happening in Iraqâ€.
It’s not a civil war in Iraq. These are terrorists attacking the civilians. They are not led by the goverment. The terrorists need to be captured and killed. Democrats don’t have the stomach for it.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:15 pmTell me how your lives have improved since the REPUBLICANS took control of the government?
It’s not up to the government to improve my life. Democrats think there should be a nanny state.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:16 pmOk, so Jerry is a troll and an idiot. Governments don’t lead civil wars, I think your stupid quote was:
It’s not a civil war in Iraq. These are terrorists attacking the civilians. They are not led by the goverment
So civilians using terror tactics attacking the government in power defines a civil war. So either you are unable to face reality, unable to comprehend reality, or a republofascist.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:19 pm#103 – guess life hasn’t gotten better for you. Thanks for sharing.
I agree, this should not be a nanny state. That includes tax breaks and government subsidies to the Oil companies and uncontested contracts with Dick Cheney’s friends.
I just couldn’t resist :)
August 19th, 2006 at 5:20 pmThe Bush/Coulter Republicans fired the Nanny and hired Big Brother to take her place.
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 5:20 pmSo civilians using terror tactics attacking the government in power defines a civil war.
No.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:21 pmA civil war is whatever Sean Hannity and Karl Rove tell me it is.
A civil war is whatever Rush Limp-baugh and George W. Bush tell me it is.
A civil war is whatever Fox News and The Weakly Standard tell me it is.
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 5:22 pmTough talk from a pip-sqeak.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:22 pm
The Bush/Coulter Republicans fired the Nanny and hired Big Brother to take her place.
That’s a lie.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:23 pm#106 – good one… still laughing out loud.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:23 pmjerry might have schizophrenia, and could represent other persona on the troll list.
intentions appear to pollute the thread so new viewers maintain a steady diet of misinformation, and to wear down the patience of old users in hopes they will abandon TP.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:23 pmguess life hasn’t gotten better for you. Thanks for sharing.
You’re an idiot.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:23 pmIt’s not up to the government to improve my life. Democrats think there should be a nanny state.
Comment by Jerry
Ok Jerry, have you read the very first lines of the US CONSTITUTION where it explicitly states the job of the government is to: We the people of the United States, in order to form a more perfect union, establish justice, insure domestic tranquility, provide for the common defense, promote the general welfare, and secure the blessings of liberty to ourselves and our posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the United States of America.
Yeah, kind of dumb to insist it’s not the government’s job when it’s right in the first line.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:24 pmA civil war is whatever Sean Hannity and Karl Rove tell me it is.
A civil war is whatever Rush Limp-baugh and George W. Bush tell me it is.
A civil war is whatever Fox News and The Weakly Standard tell me it is.
Are you on crack?
August 19th, 2006 at 5:25 pmBetter a pip-squeak than a shit-for-brains.
You happen to be both.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:25 pmprovide for the common defense
And yet Democrats don’t want to honor that pledge.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:26 pmHey Rushlimp-bot:
Definition:
A civil war is a war in which parties within the same culture, society or nationality fight for political power or control of an area. Some civil wars are also categorized as revolutions when major societal restructuring is a possible outcome of the conflict. An insurgency, whether successful or not, is likely to be classified as a civil war by some historians if, and only if, organized armies fight conventional battles. Other historians state the criteria for a civil war is that there must be prolonged violence between organized factions or defined regions of a country (conventionally fought or not).
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 5:27 pmTakes 1 to know 1 Jer.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:27 pmThat definition doesn’t match what’s happening in Iraq. There it is terrorists trying to prevent a democracy from taking hold.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:28 pmTakes 1 to know 1 Jer.
Your mom wears combat boots.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:29 pmHey jerry since you can’t read I went and got you the simple version of the definition of Civil War:
civil war
n.
A war between factions or regions of the same country.
Since this obviously is met in Iraq today, then it is by definition a civil war, and you are by definition a turd.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:30 pmThat definition doesn’t match what’s happening in Iraq. There it is terrorists trying to prevent a democracy from taking hold.
Holy Rove spin points.
The US military says that roughly 10% of the insurgency is of foreign nationals. The rest are Iraqis fighting to remove a foreign occupier from their nation.
-GSD
August 19th, 2006 at 5:31 pmSince this obviously is met in Iraq today
Obvioius to a tard like you, maybe. But most people see it for what it is. Terrorists trying to undermine the democraticly elected goverment. I know which side you stand with.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:31 pmThe US military says that roughly 10% of the insurgency is of foreign nationals. The rest are Iraqis fighting to remove a foreign occupier from their nation.
Even if true, that is NOT a civil war.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:32 pmhi sybil
August 19th, 2006 at 5:33 pmJerry, there’s no point in arguing with you. You are an ignorant piece of human refuse. When presented with the definition of civil war you deny it’s the definition. When confronted with facts you deny them. You’re an idiot and a poor excuse for a human being. Why don’t you go kiss your emporer’s ass for a while your lips must be cold.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:36 pmAnd take Might Ashat with you, his lips must be cold too. Maybe the two of you could do a double for Georgie.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:37 pmJer, I”M the one who wore the combat boots, and I am willing to stick one up your ass sideways. Do you really think that after getting shot at, that I should be afraid of a dipshit with a keyboard? LMFOA!!!!
August 19th, 2006 at 5:39 pmCorrection, that’s right Jer, my mistake. you DON”T think.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:41 pmI can’t believe this Jerry idiot doesn’t acknowledge Sunni are fighting Shia in Iraq. What an ignorant slut!
August 19th, 2006 at 5:41 pmwhy do republicans lie?
why do republicans HATE the free speech?
August 19th, 2006 at 5:43 pmJery and Mighty asshat are evidently the Gannon/Gukurt backups. no thinking required just service to his royal hinnyness.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:43 pmLet’s see Sunni, Shia 2 factions fighting for control of the country, what was that definition:
civil war
n.
A war between factions or regions of the same country.
Frackin idiot
August 19th, 2006 at 5:46 pmSo by definition Jerry is a liar, and we now know how much import to give to a liar.
August 19th, 2006 at 5:47 pmAll right, first off, I am not a Mr. I am a Mrs, a female Mrs.
I didn’t ask what the government has done for anyone. I asked – how have lives improved since the Republicans took control of the government. I’m looking for the benefits of having our government controlled by Republicans. This is simple statistics. I’m not asking what the government is doing for anyone. I am simply asking if the Republican agenda and policies have improved American lives. Now, that may be a more complex question then some folks can comprehend. If that’s the case, then I will know that the Republican agenda and policies have not been good for the American people and the rest of the world for that matter.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:00 pmCoffins you mean like:
the number of Americans living in poverty has increased by 5.4 million.
or
Ford is planning to halt production at 10 plants by the end of the year, its largest production cuts “since since the industry’s crisis of the 1980’s.â€
or
The AP writes a detailed analysis of Bush’s failure to follow-up on his promises after Huricane Katrina.
Americans better off like that?
August 19th, 2006 at 6:04 pmJerry has most likely been living in his bomb shelter since September 12, 2001, re-winding the same Bill O’Lielly newscasts on his VCR daily.
It never ceases to shock me how the neocons simply refuse to accept facts. And then try to tell us we’re spouting talking points. Nope – we just point out the truth. The reason it sounds similar is because it is the truth…
August 19th, 2006 at 6:05 pmGod – if you keep posting the truth, I might just start going to church again. Amen.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:05 pmMighty Asshat wants to profile Muslims, how quait. Why don’t we profile asshats instead.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:06 pmDear Mrs. Coffin – While you’re busy with your sterile statistics, please factor 9/11 happening on the watch of President clinton. Dam – with the DOT com debacle – we would have been up the river. Enough hypotheticals – tell us how YOUR life has gone to hell in a hand basket since GWB stole the election….
August 19th, 2006 at 6:08 pmGeorge’s “final solution” was a failure from the start. A failure presidency from the begining. Loosers, the bunch! It’s plain and simple.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:09 pmbones – thank you. Seems like you understood my question. This question was way too difficult for jerry and MA to answer.
Oh – and cup of noodle to MA – you can eat them for dinner. yummm
August 19th, 2006 at 6:10 pmGo Coffins, Asshat can’t do “satistics” they’re too “sciency” and “mathy”, she wants emotinal stories of American degredation, death, loss of civil liberties, poverty, and having to put up with Chimpy McStupid.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:11 pmMA – finally the truth – GW stole the election. We knew that and its great to know that you agree with us. Just as a reminder, it was September 11, 2001 and frat boy Bush was president. And my life has not gone to hell in a handbag. However, the Constitution of the US is slowly being shredded by this administration. That means all Americans will lose their freedoms. You know, the freedoms that we are fighting for in Iraq.
Vote for a new direction in November – vote Democrat.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:16 pm#148 – now that’s funny. Still laughing out loud.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:19 pmWhen I see the tripe plastered all over the Suby’s and Prius’ – I get a real laugh – knowing cracked, dirty heels will be protruding from the back-end of ugly Birkenstocks. Vote DEM if you HATE America….
August 19th, 2006 at 6:19 pmYou know it doesn’t pay even to discuss the tendencies and spiral of worldwide peace.
The philosophy of the neocons has failed. It is plain to any rational being.
We are left to bicker about how bad it is, but the only solution is to get them out of power and into psych wards in any way possible.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:23 pm#151, no vote DEM if you hate ASSHATS! You filthy insulting, holier than thou piece of human excrement. Your condesending attitude, unequaled stupidity, and obviously substandard humanity all combine to make you a good judge of how to stab your family in the back but nothing else. Let’s drop pretense you’re an evil piece of skin stuffed with crap, and that’s all you will ever amount to. However, the rest of us have evolved beynd the slime mold stage and will carry on the future of the human race. you are now excused Mighty Asshat.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:29 pmI get a real laugh – knowing cracked, dirty heels will be protruding from the back-end of ugly Birkenstocks. Vote DEM if you HATE America….
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Mighty Teabagger wears sensible shoes…
August 19th, 2006 at 6:31 pm#154 – bones, snicker, snicker, snicker. You kiss ass and you kicked asshat
August 19th, 2006 at 6:31 pmZooey – stop it, you’re making me laugh.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:32 pmEargy Earpp sez:
We are left to bicker about how bad it is, but the only solution is to get them out of power and into psych wards in any way possible.
Psych wards? That implies a certain lack of responsibility due to diminished capacity. I’m unwilling to allow them to abdicate responsibility for their actions so easily.
Impeach them, put them on trial for treason, execute them by firing squad. And televise every last minute of it for the entire world to see. That would go a long way towards healing this country and this planet.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:32 pmbones – I am so sorry… I’m going to smack my fingers. I meant to type “you kick ass”. My humble apologies.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:33 pmMighty Teabagger wears sensible shoes…
Comment by Zooey — August 19, 2006 @ 6:31 pm
That’s all they make in his size…
August 19th, 2006 at 6:33 pmIt’s MA and jerry that kiss ass.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:34 pmReading the rantings of juveniles who have no life experience and parrot the party line is one thing, but to read the rantings of truely EVIL people. These “people” want to kill innocent men, women, and children. They want to profile good people because of their belief in God. They want to rob Americans of the civil rights our fathers fought for. They want to torture and murder captives. These people are not annoyances, they are EVIL and the time has come to call them what they truely are.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:41 pmZooey, welcome back! some good troll whacking today. Bones is on a roll.
August 19th, 2006 at 6:48 pmDear Boner- EVIL people placate our enemies. Good people of all religions (or NO religion) understand the necessity to be vigilant and do not moan or whine if they can’t take their shampoo or knitting needles. For you to care more about doing what YOU want, when YOU want – - MORE than you care about the lives of your fellow citizens is SELFISH beyond belief. But the entitlement crowd often feels that way. Their mothers’ told them it WAS all about themmmm…….
August 19th, 2006 at 8:02 pmThe Bush administration doesn’t care about our troops. As long as the Israeli attack furthered their plans to nuke Iran, which it did, they think it worked out just fine.
http://www.harmoniousdissent.blogspot.com
August 19th, 2006 at 8:26 pmSSA’s brand new liberal blog on current news and events
http://www.harmoniousdissent.blogspot.com
http://www.sunstateactivist.org
Dear g*D – I’ll address your mundane questions concisely:
“1) Why do you hate America and the Americans in Iraq so badly?”
You assume much and demonstrate little knowledge. I love this country which allowed a hungry Irish immigrant in the late 1840’s to come and a Jewish family in 1938. The American military volunteers, who love my country and cherish her, demonstrate there will always be America.
2.) “Why should oceans of blood and treasure be spilled for the sake of a Shiite fundamentalist republic, which chants “Death to America“, which has long and………………………………………..”
August 19th, 2006 at 8:49 pmA little elitist of you, I’d say. I have no love for Shiites or Sunnis – but I DO recognize the thriving moderate and educated culture of Iraq. Iran is the third leg of the stool and if a semi-democratic or stable government is not allowed to flourish, Iran will be in control of too much oil. I favour weaning us off of the majority of petroleum and returning the bedouins to their camels.
3 >)Re: 9/11 Zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz… Go back and read the violations of the cease fire agreement and then get back with me…You don’t have a clue what you’re discussing.
Hi – back from dinner. Great evening here in PA… enjoyed dinner on the front porch with a light breeze blowing and a screech owl singing.
Looks like MA is still speaking lies, selfish lies as God has pointed out (I really need to revist my views on religion… I like this God).
Next question for MA and the rest of the trolls:
First explore your feelings (this is 7 Habits Proactive, something that Pubs need to learn) and then tell us how you would feel if your child came home in a coffin draped with a flag? I know MA that you have produced offspring so as a parent, tell me how you would really feel? I’m a parent and it would KILL me to lose a child.
My neighbor’s son came home in a coffin draped in a flag and I’m struggling with how to tell her and him that the “sacrifice was worth it”. How do you tell people to “stay the course” when they lost the most precious person in their lives? MA – help me with this?
August 19th, 2006 at 8:55 pmMA – you are the danger to America. you and your evil twisted mutant kind. you don’t represent America, you’re criminals and hate mongers. Without the evil criminals in power you wither and slink away into the graves you came from. You disgust me and I dare say most who post here. You are truely not human, definitely not American, and your lies, hate, and venom will not change one mind or deter one soul from fighting your evil rotten kind until you are all gone. See you in November when your god is in jail.
August 19th, 2006 at 8:57 pmBy the way… MA and jerry – still waiting to know the benefits of having Republicans in control in Washington.
Better Health care? Lower health care insurance premiums which fosters more small businesses? Still waiting for health insurance that is affordable so I can expand my small buisness by hiring employees. Right now, the health insurance cost is WAY TOO high for me to take on the added expense of an employee.
We need a change in direction… a direction that respects the Constitution of the US – vote Democrat. A vote for a Republican is a vote for a traitor to the Constitution of the US.
August 19th, 2006 at 9:03 pm#174 – Praise be to God.
August 19th, 2006 at 9:19 pm#64 – GSD,
August 19th, 2006 at 9:22 pmSince the deaths in 2006 only cover 2/3 of a year, we should expect about 115 for all of 2006 (actually more as they are on the uptick lately). Can’t W finish one failure before going on to the next?
pssst… God, I think the trolls moved onto the next post.
August 19th, 2006 at 9:32 pm#174 – “Very simple questions.” Comment by d*G
******Dear Dog – Very simple questions, yes. I expect nothing less from someone like you, V-E-R-Y SIMPLE QUESTIONs…I have given concise answers to counter your simple “arguments” but your narrow perspective tolerates only parrots of your philosphical persuasion. Not much can penetrate your VERY SIMPLE brain.
#173 – Dear mrs. Coffin – Instead of waiting for the rest of your fellow citizens to kick in for your health insurance, why don’t you discuss pooling your resources with other small businesses and attain lower premium costs. Our office was able to do this through an independent insurance agent and our health benefits are very manageable. You may wish tp contact Mr. Peter Lewis, scion of Progressive Insurance and George Soros sidekick – perhaps he can use his vast insurance knowledge for the “public” good.
August 20th, 2006 at 1:01 amGood luck…..
Shrubs war is with monsters for the ID. The POS is fu*king nuts. It’s time for the padded cell folks. That is not God talking to him, he is hearing voices…
August 20th, 2006 at 1:34 amGeorge Bush was right when he said he’s a uniter, not a divider. He’s single-handedly united Hezbollah, Hamas, Syria, and Iran and probably many others that we still don’t know about. He’s also united most of the rest of the world against the United States. Heckuva job, George!
August 20th, 2006 at 1:41 amCowboy (a.k.a road apple) diplomacy is dead!
August 20th, 2006 at 1:59 amThere are two reasons that the war in Iraq is not going to end any time soon.
1. The Iraqis don’t want it to end. They know that if they “stand up†and the US soldiers leave, the money from the US pouring into that country will eventually stop. They don’t want their sugar daddy to leave. They will milk this for every penny they can.
2. Military contractors, including Halliburton, don’t want it to end. They are making a lot of money on this war. Stop the war and the money stops.
The only way that the war is going to end is for the US to give the Iraqis a deadline for departure. Once they realize that the sugar daddy is moving out then you will see them standing up real fast. We can not be expected to baby-sit the Iraqis forever while they have a civil war.
We have been in Iraq almost as long as we fought World War II. It’s time to give a deadline and leave.
August 20th, 2006 at 7:32 amThis would make GW Botch a neo-Kahn. 8-)
– dixie blood
Truly divine inspiration, dixie. :)
August 20th, 2006 at 7:52 amPro Bush = Pro Death
Baby Killer BUSH!!!! Go KILL THEM IRAQI BABIES !!!!!
YEEEEE HAAAA!!!
(There is no ‘pro-life’ in war)
August 20th, 2006 at 8:28 amWhy should we suddenly feign shock about any of this? Of course, we’ve become the “enemy” and in civil war, the lives of our men will be lost. The MSM painted us as the ‘liberators’ but the Iraqis were saying the opposite. We’ve destroyed their country, killed their people, and continue our presence when they clearly desire us to leave. Invasion is invasion, regardless of the spin. The military commanders are finally getting the courage to tell the truth about what’s going on.
August 20th, 2006 at 8:59 amAug 20, 3:12 AM EDT
AP Investigation Finds More Than 80 Military Recruiters Disciplined for Sexual Misconduct
By MARTHA MENDOZA
AP National Writer
“More than 100 young women who expressed interest in joining the military in the past year were preyed upon sexually by their recruiters. Women were raped on recruiting office couches, assaulted in government cars and groped en route to entrance exams.”
Continued: http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/R/RECRUITERS_SEX?SITE=MNCLO&SECTION=HOME&TEMPLATE=DEFAULT
August 20th, 2006 at 9:00 amMA – Still didn’t share your feelings about your offspring going to Iraq and coming back in coffins draped with flags. What’s the matter? Can’t handle the thought of losing the most precious people in your life?
Can we expect an answer to what are the benefits of having the Republicans control the government? You come here and make asshat remarks about “liberals” and Democrats. I still haven’t heard any convincing arguments from you that would make me want to vote Republican?
August 20th, 2006 at 9:50 amCome on, convince us… what are the benefits of having Republicans control the government?
I quickly scanned the posting here and must state that evidently the Rovian troll assigned to this post was an idiot named JERRY.
Why oh why do you progressives posting here give these idiots a forum?
I know, I know, it is hard to ignore the assholes and move on, but that is exactly what you should do.
August 20th, 2006 at 10:16 amRebel with a Cause – baiting the trolls was so much fun yesterday. They are so easy and predictable. My apologies, guess the topic was getting worn out.
August 20th, 2006 at 10:21 amIt’s not a civil war in Iraq.
Comment by Jerry — August 19, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
Hagel: Iraq Is In A ‘Very Defined Civil War’ »
Today on Fox News Sunday, Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE) said that Iraq is in a “very defined civil war†and that the Middle East is “the most unstable we’ve seen since 1948.â€
Hey Jerry, even your republofascist PR Dept says you’re wrong, AGAIN. What didn’t they send you the Sunday News Show talking points yesterday so you wouldn’t make an ass of yourself defending them last nite, just to have them stab you in the back this morning? Welcome to the lives of the vast majority of Americans.
August 20th, 2006 at 10:40 am#193 – dixie – you are correct in your assessment. I noticed that none of the trolls were able to provide any good convincing reason to vote for a Republican. They disappear when asked that question.
August 20th, 2006 at 10:59 amDoes Bush want this in Iraq?
>> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rqidpA6SHcI
August 20th, 2006 at 12:14 pm“Dems treat illegal immigration as a chance to get new votes. Look at Busby in California calling on illegals to vote for her.”
Republicans treat immigration by building a wall. And that’s definetly gonna keep asian illegals out, right?
August 20th, 2006 at 12:19 pmJohn Kerry – that was an interesting concept. Guess God sees things differently.
August 20th, 2006 at 12:28 pmits really very simple …you kick people around over and over again they eventually kick back in self-defense. dumb-ass neo-cons and zionists dont seem to understand the fundamentals of cause-and-effect in a dog-eat-dog world. Oh I forgot neo-cons have others do the dying for their evil cause.
August 20th, 2006 at 2:43 pmDear Mrs. Coffin- – Allow me to take a moment and congratulate you on the selection of a MOST appropriate screen personna.
******To address your nonsensical question: “Still didn’t share your feelings about your offspring going to Iraq and coming back in coffins draped with flags.”
NO ONE wants their child to return home from a war in a coffin. As my husband is a retired Marine colonel and I earned the rank of Lt. Cmdr. USN, you’re playing a word game you have no chance of winning. My brother is an active duty Navy fighter pilot and our children KNOW what high regard WE hold those who serve our country. If you served, please accept out gratitude for your service. If you were “too busy” – thanks for nothing.
Should my children CHOOSE to join the military, I will support their decision WHOLEHEARTEDLY. If they were to die in their service to our wonderful country, I would mourn them each and every moment – and take solace in KNOWING I would see them again someday.
No argument I could make would ever “make you want to vote Republican”. You’re too wrapped up in your Don-na Quixote syndrome. So keep tilting at those windmills and let others guard our homes – I doubt your clever application of politically correct bumper-speak is of any value except to demonstrate the freedom to be an idiot….
We’re off to the beach…..’til later….
August 20th, 2006 at 2:50 pmremember Mighty Asshat was the person DEFENDING indiscriminantly killing Iraqis and Lebanese. She is a waste of human flesh, call her what she is, filth.
August 20th, 2006 at 3:49 pm“Thank goodness our friends and allies did not desert us during our civil war.”-comment by Mighty Aphrodite-August 3, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
August 20th, 2006 at 3:51 pm
9/11 Conspiracy
Here are some 9/11 conspiracy videos. The first is a link to a full-length documentary called “Loose Change” (click on the link and follow the link to the video):
http://www.loosechange911.com/
Other shorter 9/11 conspiracy stuff I also found interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc2lih2qjEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXpcnhwFlIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF8-8Kaa8jo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmvGFVr6KNk
September 6th, 2006 at 12:48 pm