where would America have developed alternate trade routes to Europe? Drop trade altogether?…..yes….but again…america could have done something other than take military action….or supply those that were involved in war…

Hitler offered America the ability to instantly surrender itself to him or he would go to war with it….good…I am glad you are starting to see things clearly…but here too, If america was not involved in trade with Hitlers enemies AND/OR allowed all the isolationists and anti-war factions to steer american policy—-the world would be different….

Alliances…again…isolationists and anti-war (pacifist, too) factions wanted a much different approach… the world would be different if america followed those paths….

He wanted that war so badly, but it needn’t have happened. War is expensive, it is the worst thing you can do and as such should always be a last resort, it should not be something you enter into lightly on maybes and could bes. It is something you enter into only when you are absolutely sure there is no alternative and that the threat is there.

Werent there numerous UN “actions” that supposedly gave Saddam an opportunity to come clean? I don’t remember him ever doing that…..you don’t take a killers “word” on something…I agree—war is the LAST resort…I never said anything else—-pre-emptive war is the last resort….it does matter if it is war or “pre”-emptive….

Bush didn’t even really try to find an alternative in Iraq…..isnt the UN going to save the world?

Nor would you have, with your tough guy idealogy and dreams of blowing up little kids to scare the fear of America into your enemies, you still agree with what he did. That is why I call you a hypocrit when you claim to hold human life sacred….dreams of blowing up little kids? This is where the lefties go/are crazy.. What do you think..I WANT to send my children to war? No no no no no….but if they are called to service or volunteer then yes—they must serve our country…..

have seen America turn from the land of the free, where Atheists are accepted as Americans, where it is okay to be a liberal, to what you have now, NeoNazi propaganda where the Jews have been replaced with the left. Where no attempt at understanding what the left actually is has been made…….I have no problem with atheists (I believe I was one for some time)…..liberals? we always need different povs…I just believe the liberal pov is wrong…..I don’t think you are evil….that is were we differ….why do you think I am on this site? It IS an attempt to understand what you guys believe….so far I have found an extreme amount of hate and foul language on YOUR (libs) part….

Where it is worse to be a “Liberal” then to be a child molester….where do you get your facts? who the hell said that? I think we can agree that is not true….

The bill of rights is more then just a damn piece of paper, and that is something you will never understand…..it also protects us all—-but you guys here want me off the site….it is not me that does not follow the terms of agreement—-it is your wacko lefties…..

How did we get on this topic anyway? I will see you on other posts…

As to the sinking of ships, that is pretext, that at least gave America a reason to get involved in WWI. America developing seperate trade routes? To where? World War One. Everyone with an interest in trade in Europe was involved, so tell me, where would America have developed alternate trade routes to Europe? Drop trade altogether? Even then America relied on a certain amount of import and export for its economy.

Now onto WWII: Hitler offered America the ability to instantly surrender itself to him or he would go to war with it. Well, that doesn’t sound like much of a choice to me, particularly seen as Hitler was never known for keeping his promises. There was no real choice.

Next up: Alliances. Guess what, if America signs a treaty, and an alliance is a treaty America has to honour that treaty otherwise nobody would ever sign a treaty with America. When Kuwait was invaded it gave America enough pretext for a war, and it was no pre-Emptive war. Hell I would argue that during the war when Israel bombed the shit out of Egypts troops mounting on its borders that was no pre-emptive war, it was a pre-emptive strike but it was clear that the intention to invade was there and no amount of negotiation was going to change that.

But when Bush took the unprecedented step in American history of launching a pre-emptive war against Iraq, he took a lot of guess work, some outright lies, and fiddled evidence into his arguments. He wanted that war so badly, but it needn’t have happened. War is expensive, it is the worst thing you can do and as such should always be a last resort, it should not be something you enter into lightly on maybes and could bes. It is something you enter into only when you are absolutely sure there is no alternative and that the threat is there.

Bush didn’t even really try to find an alternative in Iraq. Nor would you have, with your tough guy idealogy and dreams of blowing up little kids to scare the fear of America into your enemies, you still agree with what he did. That is why I call you a hypocrit when you claim to hold human life sacred.

We are seeing the same crap being spread about Iran now. Tell you what, five years ago and I would have believed you, but I have seen what has happened since then. I have seen America turn from the land of the free, where Atheists are accepted as Americans, where it is okay to be a liberal, to what you have now, NeoNazi propaganda where the Jews have been replaced with the left. Where no attempt at understanding what the left actually is has been made.

Where a opponent in a debate is automatically a “Hater” or a “Moonbat.” Where it is worse to be a “Liberal” then to be a child molester. Where disagreement and thought are termed weakness, and careless disregard for ones duty is strength. Where a president who has spent more days off in his reign then any president on record before him has, is termed a hard worker. Where you have your country being run like a company by a man who has never run a successful company.

Where it is more important to have a PR blitz on Katrina then it was to help the victims of Katrina. Where the President on 9/11 was praised for his strength, when what he really did was run and hide. He adressed the nation from a bunker. A president who was praised for his courage, and yet has never trully admitted that he has been wrong on specific policies. This is an America where a patriot is a person who is willing to sacrifice everything his country stands for just to be kept safe.

The bill of rights is more then just a damn piece of paper, and that is something you will never understand.

THE NEOCON DEATH AGENDA ‘Life Legal Defense Foundation’ (SAME EXACT organization which sponsored the RECALL Governor Gray DAVIS campaign handing SCHWARZENEGGER the California Governorship) immediatley FILED “groundless Lawsuits” according to the Independent Citizens Oversight Committee (ICOC)

This Life Legal Defense Foundation is suing to stop the sale of $3 billion in Proposition 71 embryonic stem cell research bonds …remember the Voter Approved kind —

By a Typical SCHWARZENEGGAR ‘Go LEFT’ Pander Play move …”Oh I am for stem cell research in KALEE__FOORN__YA” ….Here take this measly $150 million you Leftists Girlie Bags and Report that worldwide you Left WIng uncompassionate Media ”

Sorry GUV—-Not enuff nor near what the Prop 71 Voters demanded and passed in our ‘Democrapcy’ (political Pandering of Course )

ONE FOR BIG PHARMA …the Elites —–you will never know their names—–…

TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS in dollars recouped in THEAPIES NOT CURES —Patents that will last for decades and be valued at Trillions of Dollars worldwide —Therapies NOT CURES must be preserved at any cost to the public by BIG PHARMA until Public Funding will be DELAYED, Foot Dragged—UNTIL—–Research is FIRST accomplished by the ELITE BIG PHARMA using Embryonic Stem Cells —then the PATENTS FOR THE CURES OUR SAFELY IN THE BANK ACCOUNTS of THE BIG PHARMA

The NECON AGENDA is to stretch out the lawsuits in COURT till they secure the Research and the PATENTS —this is the SECRET AGENDA —-

Here is the LINK …(CUT AND PASTE THE ENTIRE ADDRESS) http://www.etopiamedia.net/ emmnn/ pages/ emmnn67-5551212.html

DOES BIG PHARMA LINE Schwarzeneggar’s Pockets …well…Yeahhh! …(CUT AND PASTE THE ENTIRE ADDRESS)

http://www.zmag.org/ content/ showarticle.cfm?ItemID=6382

It’s so obvious my friends —-but mostly the public is not hip to the Governorship of California POST in the NEOCON column (remember the polls close last here in CALI in federal elections so the governor can still call it for whoever they FIX the elections for) CALI —important place —SCHWARTZY —-taking from BIG PHARMA —Oh Yeahhhh!!!!!

Unlike what nearly all of the libs on this site do—I will explain and give detail/fact with my response…so please bare with me bruce gorton since you did not do the research…

1.)American revolution….Americans were paying a fraction of the taxes that the citizens in England were paying….the citizens of america cry foul play when asked to help fund their own defense (fr and Ind war)—”we dont have any representation you dont have the right to tax”…..hum? nearly 1/3 of the polulation was not only against breaking away—they actually joined the royalist fight against the “rabble”….another 1/3 was “neutral”….there was a very small few that were actually willing (and chose) to fight (and even these are questioned with Paines famous “The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot”)….the options? as MANY citizens of the time cried—-King George is not that bad—monarchy is much better than an uncontrollable “democracry” with demigods and iconoclasts…..Delaware rarely sent anybody to the cont congress…..penn was controlled by quakers—-that believe it or not werent so “kind” and “helpful” to the american cause….there was little unity in breaking away—–and many in the south referred to this as massachusetts fight…regardless—-if the American citizens would have been content with their local ELECTED officials and the colonial governor—history would be different…america did not “have” to fight off a King and Parliament…they just needed to pay their taxes…no?

2.)War of 1812…All america had to do was escort its merchant ships with naval vessals on their trips to europe to stop the impressment of sailors…opps, Thomas Jefferson decimated the navy so this was not an option…ok…all america had to do was re-call all its citizens west of the ohio river valley, opps they were making too much money…all america had to do was stop calling for an invasion of canada to retake one of its original lands…opps, the warhawks were all about the land($)…..america did not “have” to fight impressment or native americans in the western territories…islolation, bruce?

3.)Spanish American war…we agree on something…

4.)America could have chosen other trade routes…were the germans sinking ships in the northern pacific at this time? If so, please explain…America was not the economic power house that it would become after WWII—-so—-it was not as reliant upon Europe for trade as many would think…come on you should know this one—–ISOLATIONISM was phrase of the time…clearly america did not “have” to goto to war…appeasement and isolationism saves lives, don’t they?

5.)WWII Hitler offered america a deal…if followed america would be spared…they might live under das fuhrer but they would not “have” to goto war…unfortunatley “lend-lease” basicallly meant that america was aiding germanys enemies…if no “lend-lease” who knows? Again…appeasement saves lives, doesn’t it? We did not “have” to stop a genocidal maniac…

6.)Korean War…as you all think…communism isnt that bad…let south korea fall…we did not “have” to attempt to stop the spread of communism…

7.)Vietnam…as above…

8.)Kuwait…you are big on alliances, huh? I would certainly want you on my team—but that is nowhere near reality—don’t alliances mean you are fighting other peoples wars? We did not “have” to stop a mad man from turning the middle east into even more of a hell-hole then it is, did we? We did not “have” to attempt to stabiliaze an area that contains one of the worlds most valuable resources, did we? (yes oil, oil, oil, oil!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!)

Now, I know that you might be saying these above points are foolish and unfounded (if you want me to cite anything in particular you will have to give me a moment to search my library)…but the point is…

We could remain isolationists—or even worse act as appeasers…what history has shown us is that neither of these two work when you are a world power and there are problmes that must be addressed……you must step in…you must act…does that make sense? We must act…we “have” to act…

And I did all that without calling you a nasty name……it was not too hard….I am not a hater believe it or not…..but you guys…wow….hatred spews forth!!!!

Okay, wars in American History with other countries:

1: American revolutionary war: Pretty damn obvious as to why America got involved in that one.

2: 1812: America got involved in it mainly due to the fact that England had not declared peace or that the revolutionary war was over.

3: Spanish American War: Based off of a lie, true enough.

4: WWI: America got involved because the Germans were sinking American ships. Pretext pretty damn well laid.

5: WWII: America got involved because the Japanese attacked Pearl Harbour. As Hitler’s Germany was allied to Japan, Hitler declared war on America soon after. Read that again Nazi Germany declared war on America, you didn’t have much damn choice but to fight the Nazis.

6: The Korean War: America was allied to South Korea, and entered as allies against the Communist north.

7: The Vietnam War: As above.

8: The first Gulf War: America was allied to Kuwait and had a treaty with Kuwait stating that it would move in to the defence of Kuwait.

This is just off of the top of my head dickwad, so don’t come to me with your “America could have just stayed out of every war in history” bullcrap. Read your own bloody history some time.

you can bet those kids you probably refer to fondly as collateral damage didn’t vollunteer.

Of course seen as they aren’t white Americans you don’t really give a stuff do you?

Gordy—maybe there is someone else posting as *NEOCON* but you are way off base….I understand the sacrifices that Americans make in/through war—via family members AND friends—–so get off your dam soapbox and quit with “the racist doesn’t give a crap about americans dying” diatribe(s) that so many of you “progressives” seem so adept at—via mimicking your college professors…..

Pre-emtive war? This is great…..you take a text book defintion…Relating to or constituting a military strike made so as to gain the advantage when an enemy strike is believed to be imminent…and bastardize it for your agenda…..I get it…you are against the war….I get it…you are against Bush…..I get it….you hate more than the conservatives you speak about…..I get it….you take facts and twist them so as to align with your personal leftist beliefs…..

Justified war? If you know anything about history—-America could have “chosen” not to “get involved” in every single war….do the research…think about cause and effect…think about Americas previous options and you will see…

Wars kill people you idiot. It is not something to take lightly, like it is some sort of game and you can bet those kids you probably refer to fondly as collateral damage didn’t vollunteer. Of course seen as they aren’t white Americans you don’t really give a stuff do you? They aren’t really people after all.

Pre-Emptive war, do you know what that even is? It is a war without a good reason. It is a war that is based on maybes, guesses, and lies. It is a bullshit war. If you have a good reason to go to war it is no longer pre-emptive, it is justified.

Such a pro-life president!

Go the Death President!

Truly inspired, wisedup.

blowinginthewind
meg_mac

cute…and a natural response for middle school students….see ya later…..

quoting meg_mac’s brilliant response ZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZZNAZI

At post 64 you reiterate the entire point of this post. You said “And of course I am for stem cell research—just without killing a life to save a life…..”

That was GW’s original argument. The point of this conversation is that they have found a way to get the stem cells without Harming the embryo. It can still be implanted in a woman and survive full term.

This post describes the false logic that the President uses when he says he is still against Embryonic stem cell research even though he knows the embryos will be unharmed.

It sounds to me like you are making the same illogical argument as the President. Against it when kills…against it when it doesn’t kill.

I of course don’t think that 8 cells outside of a uterus is a life, but that is for a different argument on a different post.

John…#77….another example of the fascist-lefties……post#57 item 11

John…#74…especially the last paragraph—-don’t know whether to laugh or think you are absolutely insane…..

John blowing?…whatever…#90…got it now—you are insane…..

meg_mac…#78…okgeniushaveyounoticedIamcarrying-onseveral conversationsatonce…..you might want to address John #74 and/or #46, #90 (blowing?)

Bruce Gorton…#79…did I ever say I was for the death penalty or something? I have only stated that I was for pre-emptive military force…..there is a difference between men volunteering for service and a fetus…you said it by the way-“whole living breathing thinking human”…that means they made a decision…a decision to join the military or a decision that led to their sentencing of/on death row….

Torture? I prefer to call it extracting information…. I may believe in the use of it….but I can see the reliabilty points you make….

Intelligence gathering….phone records, wire taps, and spying on your political opponent (did I miss this one? Can you elaborate?) will be settled in the courts…..whether I/you like it or not……I think its ok…you think it is worse than terrorism……

Buchanan? Kinda sick of him….I don’t think I voted for him… I am from CT…you know—where Lamont is running against Bush this fall for the senate seat….

Pagan American #87…These are left over cells from fertility clinics… those cells are taken from human embryos…that’s where the debate begins…not ends……

Here is the LINK …please pass this POST and story on
http://www.etopiamedia.net/emmnn/pages/emmnn67-5551212.html

DOES BIG PHARMA LINE Schwarzeneggar’s Pockets …Hell YES …

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=6382

THE PATENTS ARE WORTH TRILLIONS ——THE PATENTS ARE WORTH TRILLIONS —-THE PATENTS ARE WORTH

TRILLIONS

California is known worldwide as the tech leader in many areas …. Silicon valley …. Hollywood Film Tech……Special FX etc

….the Voters HERE in California passed Propostion 71 to Begin a STATE Sponsored Policy of Stem Cell Research Funding

….. the people of America are lulled into thinking, well, California is doing it …we will all benefit pretty soon anyway from Stem

Cell Research …California is on it …… we can forget about it …it will happen now…….this is a Flase Hope and Understanding

that is being deliberately peddled by th NEOCON leadership of California to further their agenda …and here is how they are

doing it :

THE Voters HERE in California passed Propostion 71 to Begin a STATE Sponsored Policy of Stem Cell Research Funding …..

Then HERE COMES THE Life Legal Defense Foundation which is the SAME EXACT organization which sponsored the

RECALL Governor Gray DAVIS campaign which swept SCHWARZENEGGER into office ……The Life Legal Defense

Foundation has brought what
ICOC Chair Robert Klein II (Independent Citizens Oversight Committee (ICOC) STEM CELL POLICY FACILITATORS , says are

“groundless lawsuits” …… to HALT the STEM CELL RESEARCH funding the Voters Voted For and the SAME

ORGANIZATION that GOT GRAY DAVIS RECALLED and SCHWARZENEGGAR HANDED THE GOVERNORSHIP (which

everyone here in CALI knows was an ENRON BLACK OP OVERSPILL –the fake California Energy Crisis of 2002) The Life

Legal Defense Foundation is suing to stop the sale of $3 billion in Proposition 71 embryonic stem cell research bonds …..

SCHWARZENEGGAR now says …”Oh I am for stem cell research now” ..here is a measly $150 million to show my good faith”

…Bullshit …. Bullshit …and more Austrian Ca-ca —–the same Organization that CONVIENTLY PLACED THE GUVERNATER

in office is now suing him in a FAKE lawsuit to stop the Brilliant VOTER APPROVED California State Policy of FUNDING STEM

CELL RESEARCH ……and he is gladly obliging them in the

WHY ….BIG PHARMA …Read POST 46 …TRILLIONS and TRILLIONS in dollars recouped in THEAPIES NOT CURES

…THERAPIES NOT CURES …that is Soylant Green Here folks —if you are a blogger….if you are active—- PLEASE get this

Particular story out ….I have Cancer and I know this will help people like me ……GET THIS STORY out ….Big PHARMA is the

enemy in collusion with the NEOCON agenda ….they want the PATENTS —THE PATENTS ARE WORTH TRILLIONS —–they

are stretching things out in COURT till they secure the Research and the PATENTS and see who is helping them ?

Here is the LINK …please pass this POST and story on
http://www.etopiamedia.net/ emmnn/ pages/ emmnn67-5551212.html

DOES BIG PHARMA LINE Schwarzeneggar’s Pockets …Hell YES …

http://www.zmag.org/ content/ showarticle.cfm?ItemID=6382

For the success of the STEM CELL RESEARCH FUNDING …for our families, friends and loved ones …..tell the people about

this bullshit in California …BOLG on and PASS THIS ON (also POST #46)

Derail their secret agendas piece by piece …..

Comment by John — August 24, 2006 @ 1:53 pm