Lugar: U.S. Troops Should Stay In Iraq Even If There Is A Full-Scale Civil War
Lugar: U.S. Troops Should Stay In Iraq Even If There Is A Full-Scale Civil War
Most experts agree, in the event of a full-scale civil war in Iraq, there is no useful role for U.S. troops. (This position is even advanced by Bush administration officials.)
It is not the view, however, of Sen. Richard Lugar (R-IN), the chairman of the Senate Foreign Relations Committee. Yesterday on CNN, Lugar said that U.S. troops should remain in Iraq if a full-scale civil war breaks out. (Lugar acknowledged Iraq is “heading toward” that outcome.) According to Lugar, “The idea, somehow, that civil war means that we leave is a non- starter, because Iraq’s physical integrity is important.” Watch it:
Sen. Chuck Hagel (R-NE), another member of the Foreign Relations Committee, said that putting “our troops in the middle of a civil war” would create a “slaughter of immense proportions.” Hagel added “The leadership in Congress will not put up with it.” It looks like Congressional leadership might put up with it afterall.
Transcript:
BLITZER: I interviewed the prime minister, Senator Lugar, of Iraq in the first hour of “Late Edition,” Nouri al-Maliki. He insists there is no civil war, and there won’t be a civil war in Iraq.
What do you think?
LUGAR: Well, we pray he’s right, but obviously, as General Abizaid has pointed out and our ambassador, Zal Khalilzad, we’re heading toward that. Now having said that, the fact is that we must do all we can to work with the president of Iraq to prevent it, or to hold it down.
The idea, somehow, that civil war means that we leave is a non- starter, because Iraq’s physical integrity is important. By that I mean, if Iraq deteriorates and Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds begin picking up partners in other countries, then we have a conflagration that dwarfs anything which is occurring presently in the deteriorating problems of Iraq.
BLITZER: There’s a potential for a horrible situation to become even much worse.
LUGAR: Yes.
BLITZER: That’s what you’re saying.
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That’s fine with me. I just wish someone would tell me how the Super Bases fit into the stated strategy in Iraq.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:00 amThe problem lies in the definition of ‘full-scale civil war’. There’s no difference between Senator Lugar and the rest of the administration, because the golaposts on what constitutes a ‘full-scale civil war’ will continue to be pushed back, justifying the continuance of the occupation.
Over 100 Iraqis are being killed daily, but apparently this doesn’t meet with the administration’s definition of a ‘full-scale civil war’.
Just tell us: How bad does it need to get? Decide on a final position for those goalposts and keep them there.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:09 amWhich strategery are you talking about DLC – ’stay the course’ or ‘adapt to win’?
August 28th, 2006 at 10:09 amSend Lugar to the fossil farm please. The man was having “senior moments” as far back as 1988 when he thought he could be president.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:13 amSen Lugar forgot his happy pill…
August 28th, 2006 at 10:18 amI love how these guys continue to screw up and then tell people that they are the only one that can get us out of the situation. The Authoritarian leadership in this country is killing the American Dream.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:22 amIraqi troops locked in deadly battle with militia
9 U.S. soldiers die during the weekend
FOR WHAT DID THEY DIE
August 28th, 2006 at 10:23 amHe’s right, the US troops have to stay there even if a full scale civil war erupts, that’s why it was very wrong to send them to Iraq in the first place, because the US will get in a conflict that shouldn’t happend and where it has nothing to gain, that’s the magnitude of this Iraq blunder.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:28 amI’m stuck down here in Guadalajara without any news. The only cable company, MegaCable, has failed to pay their bill again, and CNN is blacked out.
I saw on the YAHOO News that 10 amurkan soldiers were killed over the weekend. To idiots like Lugar this is acceptable.
I went to SLATE and did not see a mention of the 10 soldiers killed.
I guess that we are getting used to soldiers being killed in the midst of a civil war that does not exist.
Amurka is in such bad shape that the press cannot keep up with it. Another hurricane approaching, and Bush on vacation – again. Productivity up by workers, but lose 2% again. Going out backwards, just like the Bushies want.
Oh well, guess I will have to move again, this time further away. Maybe the South Pole?
August 28th, 2006 at 10:29 amMore glitz and good news from the senator with a handgun named after him!
August 28th, 2006 at 10:32 amBy ‘physical integrity’ I would imagine he really means ‘territorial integrity’, ie, a fragmented Iraq. Gee, that’d be too bad – perhaps they would get along better in their own statelets.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:32 amWill the US Again Attack Iran – This Time Without Saddam?
When three Iraqi-Americans met with the president prior to the 2003 invasion of Iraq and spent some time trying to tutor him on the differences between Shi’ite and Sunni Islamic sects, Galbraith says that Bush, ever the slow learner, allegedly responded: “I thought the Iraqis were Muslims!”
In fact, for a number of years in the 1980’s, the U.S. government backed Saddam Hussein because it knew he was not a Shi’ite, but rather a secular-oriented Sunni willing to wage war against both the Shi’ite majority in his own country and the Shi’ite Islamic theocracy in Iran.
And wage war he did. From September of 1980, when Saddam invaded Iran, until a cease-fire in August of 1988, Iran suffered over 100,000 casualties from Iraqi chemical weapons, making it one of the worst-affected countries in the world by weapons of mass destruction (WMD).
Current Secretary of Defense Donald Rumsfeld traveled to Iraq in 1983 for the Reagan administration as a special presidential envoy to establish “direct contact between President Reagan and President Saddam Hussein.” A famous picture from that trip of an eager Rumsfeld gazing admiringly at Saddam while they shake hands circulates the internet to this day.
And as it turns out, many of the WMD that Saddam used against Iran were supplied to him by Egypt, Singapore, India, and U.S. allies from Europe. Worse yet, the CIA provided Iraq with intelligence used to “calibrate” its mustard gas attacks on Iranian troops. Saddam also used American-supplied Bell helicopters to spray chemical weapons.
SADDAMS NEW COURT CASE WILL EXPOSE AMERICA HA HA HA HA
August 28th, 2006 at 10:34 amThese GOP morons actually think they are still fighting biblical battles.
Hey GOP-o-CONS, Armageddon happened in way back in 70 A.D……IsouV CristoV.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:34 amNo James by ‘physical integrity’ he mean the oil in the ground.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:35 amhead up ass
August 28th, 2006 at 10:36 amWell,someone has to protect Dick Cheney’s oil.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:41 amUS imperialism ,permanent bases and the neo cons must all be dispensed with ,undoubtedly .But there remains the possibility that through this criminal administrations policies real destabilization culminating in a Sunni blood bath will ensue ! This may not be so black and white as just pulling up stakes and leaving .But self interested military imperialism must end .
August 28th, 2006 at 10:41 amYou broke it you own it ,may best describe the position we find ourselves ! Perhaps the troops could be withdrawn but replaced with carpenters , engineers and medical specialists .We must render aid to those we as a country have wronged horribly in the region and make restitution .We as a nation owe them that at least !
Love is a more effective weapon in vanquishing enemies than murder and destruction .
The Only True Axis of evil are America, britain and Isreal
August 28th, 2006 at 10:42 amA three wheeled axis of evil sound unstable .
August 28th, 2006 at 10:46 amwheres the first aid kit ? Band aids anybody ?
August 28th, 2006 at 10:47 amWould someone please send this asshole out for a congressional fact-finding mission to Fallujah, for six months!?!
August 28th, 2006 at 10:50 amI’m waiting to hear “F*ck Yeah” from “Team American”.
August 28th, 2006 at 11:00 amLugar will die from old age before the troops come home. Why should he care?
August 28th, 2006 at 11:06 amSo, Senator Lugar, tell us your plan for the U.S. for preventing Iraw from further deterioration into a “full-scale” civil war without the U.S. appearing to take sides with any faction, for “fighting the terrorists over there” without inflaming further animosity toward the U.S., and for rebuilding what we broke. No empty slogans (”stay the course” or “adapt”) please. What are the criteria for U.S. redeployment? What circumstances would indicate to you that we cannot be successful and must redeploy or that our mere presence is further flaming the conflicts? We already know that the whole War in Iraq was a “non-starter” that we started anyway. What constitues “finishing”? As for “physical integrity”, what about the integrity of our country and its soldiers, political system, economics, position in the view of the world, and morality. How is U.S. integrity enhanced by “staying the course”?
August 28th, 2006 at 11:13 amObviously the best thing to do when you’re in a hole is to keep digging! When will the Bush administration realise that they’re at least part of the cause of the violence in Iraq?
August 28th, 2006 at 11:15 amWe keep hearing about the monumental “split” within the ranks of the Democratic party over the war in the SCLM. There is nary a word, however, about the fact that there are, now, Republicans riding both sides of that same fence. The level of cognitive dissonance in the media is staggering and truly frightening.
Senator Dick (Emphasis on the ‘Dick’) Lugar served in the Navy from 1957-1960 (source-Wikipidea at peace time. Senator Chuck Hagel, on the other hand, served in the US Army from 1967-1968, spending all of 1968 in Vietnam where earned 2 purple hearts.(source-US Senate Bioguide). I don’t know about everyone else here but I think it’s pretty obvious who probably has the better handle on what combat is all about. Lugar is just another chickenhawk who would be shitting his pants if he had any skin in the game.
August 28th, 2006 at 11:22 am26,
Part of the problem is that Bush et al seem to classify all the insurgents as ‘terrorists’, and then leave it at that. I’m sure some sort of peace (probably involving the partitioning of Iraq) could be arranged if they took a more nuanced view, and recognised that the situation is a more complicated than ‘good guys versus bad guys’.
The whole situation reeks of the axis of evil rhetoric- ‘we are good, you are bad’ and ‘you’re either with us or against us’. Problem is when this rhetoric comes into contact with a real situation, it tends to show itself for what it is- plain ridiculous.
August 28th, 2006 at 11:22 amBushco and this rubber stamp GOP Congress is the worst we have seen in U.S history. They are collectively a colossal failure of immense proportions.
Bushco is immune to conventional reason, principled arguments, thoughtful discussion, alternative solutions, and essentially anything else that does not further their agenda of global hegemony and the accumulation of raw power… we need to take control of the House and Senate in Nov while there is still something left to salvage in our country…
August 28th, 2006 at 11:29 amIsn’t it waaaay past time that Lugar and guys like him be “put out to pasture”?
August 28th, 2006 at 11:33 am29
August 28th, 2006 at 11:38 amAbsolutely correct! The lack of nuanced thinking, lack of willingness to gather information that may be counter to your current philosopy, and policies that result from this either-or view of the world got us and keep us in trouble. That trouble is not just in Iraq or even in our foreign policy. Our domestic policies suffer from the same myopic lack of vision and, if you will, scientific approach and reasoning. Maybe we need to elect a scientist as President!
check his investment portfolio for what he is making on the war.
August 28th, 2006 at 11:39 amwho else but a war profiteer would “like” war
pardon me, psychopathic’s, forgot.
[...] Click here to see the video [...]
August 28th, 2006 at 11:42 am32,
Maybe just someone who doesn’t see the world in black and white. I also think it’s why the right smears the left as ‘hating America’ etc- because for them either you support America unconditionally, or you are a closet terrorist.
Al Franken made a good point in Lies and the Lying Liars: he said that right wingers love America like a small child loves their parents- America is invincible, always right and so on. On the other hand, he says that the centre/left loves America like an adult- America is capable of making mistakes, and that for every good accomplishment there is generally a bad one.
I really think there is a lot to be said for that view.
August 28th, 2006 at 11:44 am35
August 28th, 2006 at 11:50 amThat’s why I usually respond to the “love America or leave it” slogan by pointing out that I love America the way I loved my daughter when she was growing up – enough to confront, criticize, and correct her when she was wrong and not living up to our family values, not just leave her to flounder. Family values, indeed.
Unfortunately the people have no say in this. It’s a corporate project and even if the Democrats controlled everything, the Iraq policy would not change one iota. It’s not as if both Parties use identical foreign policy handbooks, they use the exact same handbook.
Only bankruptcy, an emphatic defeat somewhere or an “unacceptable†number of American deaths can save us and the Iraqis now. All of these could come sooner rather than later if the Bush child accepts the corporate engineered Neo-con double dare and attacks Iran.
August 28th, 2006 at 11:54 amThe Republican Party treats our troops like low-wage workers. They think “They signed up for a job and they are going to what I say whether they like it or not.”
Unfortunately for the majority of our troops, they will do whatever they are told to do — even if it means dying.
It’s time for Republican leaders to start treating our troops with a little more respect for their sacrifices. And that means never putting them in harms way unless it is abosolutely justified.
The troops rely on our leaders to be repsonsible. Democrats will put a stop to the GOP’s abuse of that responsibility.
August 28th, 2006 at 12:03 pm36,
Exactly. ‘Family values’ unfortunately now is associated with the likes of James Dobson and seems to have become a key concept for extreme conservatives generally. I think that actual family values are those that emphasise the need for stability and love between parents and children.
I became a father for the first time about a year ago, and would be absolutely disgusted if my daughter, in years to come, was afraid to either criticise or mock me. Or even if she believed that I was always right!
August 28th, 2006 at 12:04 pmThe US is allready bankrupt. Its social and operational liabilities over the rest of the 21st century face a $66 trillion shortfall. That’s in addition to the current $8.5 trillion dollars of today.
August 28th, 2006 at 12:09 pmThis is the ReichWing’s Vietnam moment.
They pretend to be smart. But the way they act leads me to believe WingNuts know s**t! about how to govern. WingNuts also know s**t! when it comes to invading countries.
I hope the Rethuglican Party (Greedy ‘Ol Parasites) pay for this politically for decades to come. Our sons and daughters are dying in a place that WingNuts had no moral/ethical/real need to send them.
August 28th, 2006 at 12:19 pmLugar…..hmmm. Isn’t that the name of a Nazi firearm?
August 28th, 2006 at 12:39 pmNow we know what conservatives really mean when they say “Support the troops”: Put the soldiers in harm’s way to fight a war of choice, leave them there, and do not allow them to go back home.
To that effect, they keep redefining the terms and moving the goal posts: “We will stand down as they stand up” is now “we’re not leaving so long as I’m the president”. The statement “that civil war means that we leave is a non- starter” is essentially hollow because they won’t even agree on what civil war actually is.
Finally, statements like “if Iraq deteriorates and Sunnis, Shiites and Kurds begin picking up partners in other countries” are full of colonial arrogance. Isn’t the US one of those “other countries”? Or is Iraq an American territory now?
August 28th, 2006 at 12:53 pm#22 – “The Only True Axis of evil are America, britain and Isreal”
Comment by Tobey Tall
******Dear ToBE Tall – Isn’t it amazing that people the world over are busting their a$$es to get to “Axis of Evil” United States, Great Britain and Israel. Thank you for allowing others the opportunity to read your posts and deduce your level of stupidity.
******Back on thread — In the event that warring Islamo-wacks ratchet up the hostilities and savagery into the echelon of a FULL SCALE Civil Was, maybe we’ll get lucky and they’ll kill each other. Of course I worry that the nut-case Achminejead in Iran would swoop in to bolster the Shiites. I have hope that moderate Muslims in Iraq can live together in a democracy but THAT remains to be seen…..
August 28th, 2006 at 12:56 pmI sometimes wonder about Lugar. His responses can be so off the wall. Is this a sign of early Alzheimer’s disease? I believe he is up for re-election this year too.
August 28th, 2006 at 12:57 pmFoot in mouth and head up asshole
August 28th, 2006 at 1:02 pmWhatcha’ talkin’ bout
Difficult to dance round this one
Till you pull it out boy
When the Senate’s Foreign Relations Committee was debating the nomination of John Bolton to the U.N., Senator Luger tried to force a vote, in an attempt to limit the growing list of people who were demonstrating why Bolton was an unsuitable choice. Democrats on the committee wanted to see documents that John Bolton had gotten from his improper use of intelligence agencies to obtain information on certain Americans, which we now know very well, is illegal. Senator Lugar finally said he would look into it. Yeah, whatever. The documents never appeared, and GWB used a recess appointment, making Senate approval irrelevant, and ending further investigation. Senator Luger is backing up BushCo, it means nothing.
August 28th, 2006 at 1:18 pm“Iraq’s physical integrity is important.†–WTF is that supposed to mean.
Not its government, Not its infastructure. Not its people. Not our soldiers either.
Apparently in Iraq only sand and the rich filling underneath it are important.
August 28th, 2006 at 1:20 pmThe blood and destruction on top must be the icing.
Ok Lugar, bush just signed a ‘no age limit draft’..let’s say…I’ll be glade to put your name at the TOP OF THE LIST…DEAL?
August 28th, 2006 at 1:26 pmHow long is it going to take the Iraqis to “stand up” so that we can “stand down”?
We take our wet behind the ears 18 yr old kids – give them just over two months of training and then ship them out to Iraq.
If we can get them trained and ready to go in under three months – how come we haven’t been able to sufficiently train the Iraqis in over three years?
August 28th, 2006 at 2:01 pm#45, mighty aphrodite: They say it’s better to let people think you are stupid than to open your mouth and remove all doubt.
A better part of some six billion people agree that the US and Israel are state sponsors of terrorism and they can provide evidence to support this accusation. We, on the other hand, cannot muster up enough courage to define the term “terrorist” for the fear that it would expose us for what we are. How was “shock and awe†any different from multiple 9/11s?
Go ahead, give it a shot. And no, “terrorist†is not another name for Muslims.
August 28th, 2006 at 2:05 pmIf Iraq turns into some sort of Darfour, it’s not logic to advocate some kind of force to stabilise de country?
Yes, Iraq is a terrible mess. Yes it’s Bush fault. Having said that we got 2 choices:
1-We leave Iraq and let the Iraqis in their misery.
2-We try to settle the thing before leaving.
P.S.: As long as Rumsfeld will be in power, the #2 option is non viable.
August 28th, 2006 at 2:26 pm#55 – “A better part of some six billion people agree that the US and Israel are state sponsors of terrorism…” Comment by Abby
******So what…. 95% of the worlds’ population used to think the earth was flat – how could they be wrong if so many of them knew what THEY knew. Your “point” is pointless….. ” How was “shock and awe” different than 9/11?” This is without a DOUBT the MOST IGNORANT question I have EVER seen in this forum! For one, the Iraqi leadership violated the terms of a cease fire. (FYI, a cease fire is NOT a peace treaty.) If you are a college student, please tell me YOU parents are NOT spending the hard earned $$$ on your education. That $$$$ is going to WASTE. If you are an school teacher, I feel great sorrow for your students who deserve a nore qualified teacher.
Unfortunately, the face of contemporary terrorism all too often belongs to a radical Muslim….from Chechniya to the Phillipines, from Tehran to Toronto….You can offer your understanding and comfort to our enemies – I expect no less from a traitor…
Just remember what one of my favourite women in history said,
August 28th, 2006 at 3:03 pm“Don’t be humble….you’re not that great.” – Golda Meir
57,
Quote from 55:
Did you not read the last clause?
You can’t equate mass belief in the world being flat to belief that the US and Israel are sponsors of terrorism because the latter claim is based on evidence, rather than the bible.
And ’shock and awe’ being similar to 9/11? Well, they were both attempts to intimidate a civilian into changing their opinion. You don’t even say why it is a stupid question!
August 28th, 2006 at 3:15 pmI guess Iraq is necessary if Iran is to be invaded. Perhaps that Is Lugar’s thinking……What a ‘Great” idea that would be.
August 28th, 2006 at 3:23 pmThe flat earth folk relied on “evidence” also (what they SAW constituted the evidence of the day) – again, YOUR point is…..pointless….but those you and your ilk coddle sand a great big hug and “Allah Akbar” to YOU….
August 28th, 2006 at 3:41 pmPeace Delegation, Amman Jordan
For two days early in August 2006, members of the Iraqi parliament agreed to meet with a peace delegation from the United States in Amman, Jordan. The peace delegation included Medea Benjamin, Jodi Evans, Gael Murphy, Diane Wilson, Cindy Sheehan, Ann Wright, Judith LeBlanc, Barbara Briggs-Letson, Geoffrey Millard, Tom Hayden, Father Louis Vitale, Raed Jarrar, Aseel Albanna and Jeeni Criscenzo. I had been invited as a filmmaker to document this momentous occasion.
The meetings were complex and revealed the contradictions and factions that are making it difficult for the new Iraq government to speak with a unified voice. The one thing that was unanimous was their desire for the US to end the occupation and withdraw its troops.
Though they disagreed about the timeline for US troop withdrawal, they all agreed that federalism (the creation of separate discreet states within Iraq) is a mistake. Reconciliation of competing factions, compensation for war victims, recognition of the resistance as legitimate, amnesty members of the resistance, disbanding the militias, eradicating the mysterious death squads and rebuilding the country were priorities.
One parliamentarian, a doctor, had very sad reports about there being no medicine and no electricity in hospitals that were fully operational before the invasion and occupation. According to her, many of the skilled and educated, including doctors and nurses have either fled the country or been killed. Apparently, most of the reports we receive of hospitals and schools being built by the American occupation forces are really just efforts to rebuild existing institutions that have been destroyed.
The British ambassador, the day we arrived in Amman had been quoted as saying that civil war is imminent between the Sunni and the Shia. Yet, what we heard repeatedly is that the Sunni and the Shia have been intermarrying and living in integrated communities for thousands of years. In one of the sessions we heard from two men who represented the mainstream political parties – one is Shia, he is married to a Sunni. The other is Sunni and is married to a Shia. This is the character of Iraqi society.
In the second day of meetings, three men who had been incarcerated at Abu Ghraib spoke. Their testimony was electrifying. Even after all of the furor as a result of the photos from Abu Ghraib it was deeply disturbing to sit face to face with men who had been subjected to torture. We heard from one of the men that when he requested pain medication for his hand on which he had recently had surgery, a guard stomped on his hand and told him “that’s pain medicine in America.†He also told us of a man who was taken by a female guard and ordered to have sex with her. When the prisoner refused, ‘she put on an artificial penis and raped him’. And what is it they want? They want to be heard and they want justice.
That’s what struck me above all else was that these people are looking to America for justice. They believe that America is a just and law abiding society and they expect that the US will return their sovereignty to them and make right the damage and destruction that has been wreaked upon their country.
The goal of the peace delegation was to return to the United States with a clear and concise statement of what the Iraqis want and to present it to American legislators. But, I believe, an equally important effect of this meeting is something less tangible because it was clear that the men and women from Iraq who met with these citizens of the United States were given renewed hope that their belief in the innate goodness of Americans is not invalid. Their hopes for the future of their country were given new life.
LD Thompson
August 28th, 2006 at 3:42 pmtrick dog films
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 28, 2006 @ 3:03 pm
(1) Talk about “world is flat without evidence” and “US and Israel are terrorists WITH proof of accusation” – no difference?
(2) The civilian population has to be bombed because Iraq violated the terms of a cease fire has to be the chump statement of all time. The US accused Iraq of failing to abide by the terms of the 1991 cease-fire (by developing and possessing weapons of mass destruction). It was, we know only too well, a false accusation and an accusation does not equal guilt. The killing of we-don’t-do-body-counts number of innocent civilians for political purposes is terrorism.
(3) Patriotism is obviously a term you will never understand so your accusation about me being a traitor requires no reply and causes me no offense.
(4) “Unfortunately, the face of contemporary terrorism all too often belongs to a radical Muslim…” is an excellent Rightwing talking point but WTF does it mean? Please don’t use terms you cannot define. What do you mean when you say “terrorismâ€?
JFC, talk about ironic handles. “Mighty moron†would have been more appropriate.
August 28th, 2006 at 3:48 pm#58 – “You can’t equate mass belief in the world being flat to belief that the US and Israel are sponsors of terrorism because the latter claim is based on evidence, rather than the bible.” – Prince Munchkin
******Your Royal Highness – I beg your royal opinion, BUT yes, I can equate the two. A great number of people from the Dark Ages were non-subscribers to the teachings of the Bible. They relied on what they saw, came to expect, and anticipated. Why don’t you cut your losses and fold your majestic tent – you lose…..
August 28th, 2006 at 3:53 pm******Dear Abby – - I b-e-l-i-e-v-e EVERY single solitary word radical Muslims spew. Because YOU claim it is evidence – does NOT mean it IS. (I specialize in evedentiary issues….so you may want to re-examine your premise…)
The GOOD news for the Islamo-wacks? They know with gullible dupes like YOU they can win the PR game. Have you signed up yet to be a human shield?? I bet you’d be good at that…..
August 28th, 2006 at 4:01 pmwhatever tripey,
August 28th, 2006 at 4:04 pmget back to beating your children, you fraud
you specialize in being a lying troll on a free comments section, tripey
August 28th, 2006 at 4:05 pmlooks like the brown shirts have wrinkles, tripey, bett get to ironing. don’t want the gestapo to rein you in
August 28th, 2006 at 4:06 pmit’s too bad your children are going to despise you for teaching them fear and hate. they’ll spit on your grave one day.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:07 pmWhen you look at the bombings that are now occurring in Turkey by Kurdish Rebels, you see the spillover of Iraqi fragmentation. I want our troops home too, but we have stoked a fire over there and we need to deal with the cards these Bushits dealt us. If we just pullback and let whatever happens happen, it might create a larger conflict which we will be unable to avoid. I do not have the answers, but we have to have a real national discussion about the ramnifications of any plan. The failure to have this discussion led us into this morass; progressives should lead the way for a real debate on what to do now.
Prediction: Regardless of whether Bush “stays course” or troops are withdrawn from Iraq, by 2008 we’ll have a democratic President who nonetheless gets forced into a protracted war in the middle east, probably initiated by Iran. Bush and Omert have successfully demonstrated the limits of their nations respective military power, and it invites further conflict.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:08 pmislamo-whacks have won the pr game because you whackjobs screwed up bigtime. you can blame it on whomever you want, but this is the republicans’ mess, and you know it.
you and yours are incompetent failures, tripey.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:09 pm63 and 64,
Sigh. People in the Dark Ages made a judgement based upon insufficient evidence. It wasn’t just Christianity, it was also widespread superstition and ‘common sense’. By contrast, we can term America and Israel terrorist states based upon their conformity to a simple definition of terrorism. If you take terrorism to mean an attack upon a civilian population in order to achieve political results through fear, then both the US and Israel are terrorist states. And no, saying that does not make you a defender of Islamists. It makes you an opponent of all terrorists.
Your definition of ‘terrorism’ seems to be ‘acting under suspicion of wearing a beard’.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:12 pmtripey is a complete fraud. i wonder why tripey uses spellings like “neighbour” and “colour”?
do you know any americans that use british conventions for spelling?
August 28th, 2006 at 4:12 pmshe’s no attorney, she’s a fat right-wing ho with scabies and a desperate need foe attention. tripey is a sociopathic disease carrier whose mere existence denigrates humanity.
70,
MA is obviously a highly qualified ‘constitutional attorney’, just like Ann Coulter. They both trade on the social kudos of the word ‘attorney’ to hide the fact that they’re loud mouthed idiots.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:14 pmthere is no debating tripey, there is only berating tripey.
sorry folks, don’t waste your time with uber-troll and colossal wingnut windbag tripey. just call her out for the hopeless neo-con waste of flesh she is and get on with your lives.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:14 pmProgREX -who has never uttered an original thought in HIS/HER life has found a new little friend, Prince Munchkin. Neither have an argument or valid refutation, but THAT FACT is not surprising…. The Prince equates “parallel” and “perpendicular” – probably because they BOTH begin with “P”. HMMMMMmmmm…. “Prince” and “progressurus”????
August 28th, 2006 at 4:25 pmThe US is in Iraq permanently. Never mind what the corrupt monopoly parties tell you about withdrawal. We went in for the oil and we’re staying for the oil. That’s why we’re building a billion $ embassy there. That’s why we have built PERMANENT military bases ringing oil wells and pipelines.
The US will stay and one way or another we’ll install a Western compliant client state. Otherwise, we’ll kill every Iraqi who gets in our way. It’s that simple.
If you object to this there’s another simple solution: get rid of the corrupt monopoly party scum in Washington.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:34 pm#64 Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 28, 2006 @ 4:01 pm
“I specialize in evedentiary (sic) issues….so you may want to re-examine your premise…”
Let’s examine it together, shall we? To accuse someone, in this case Muslims, of terrorism, we must first define what we mean by terrorism and why terrorism is bad, right?
Why don’t you start by defining what you mean by terrorism? One of the definitions I get is “the use of violence and threats to intimidate or coerce, especially for political purposes.†That, obviously, is unacceptable for your purposes because that definition points the finger at the US more than at the Muslims. Why, even our “proposal†for Iran to stop doing what is its legal right…..OR ELSE, could be defined as terrorism.
I ask you once again, and for the last time, how you define terrorism. Show me that you know what are talking about.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:38 pmas if fake outrage from a fake commenter is going to do me any harm, tripey.
c’mon, tripey, explain how a person who claims to have been in the us military and is now an american lawyer uses spellings like “colour” and “rationalise”. you’re no american, you’re a fake. quit trying to pass yourself off as something you’re not, you putred scab-ridden wench.
you are utterly full of it tripey. you’re a fraud and a sociopathic scumhole.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:39 pm75,
You are right, dear MA, and I am far too simple to understand you. Perhaps, for my benefit at least, you could briefly restate your argument from beginning to end so that I may benefit from your enlightenment?
August 28th, 2006 at 4:43 pmi give you mighty tripey, post 57:
Just remember what one of my favourite women in history said,
“mighty tripey is a fraud and a complete waste of flesh†– Golda Meir
favourite, tripey? where ever did you learn to spell like that?
not that i expect a sociopathic lying stench weasel like you to respond.
August 28th, 2006 at 4:44 pmfunny how tripey’s always here posting when most qualified american lawyers would be, you know, working right now.
who would want an attorney representing them that spent so many hours in the middle of the afternoon posting on a political news site?
tripey = monumental fraud, sociopathic mold spore. or should i say mould spore, eh tripey?
August 28th, 2006 at 4:53 pmOk, getting bored here, but shouldn’t that read ‘Neither have an argument, nor a valid refutation’?
Perhaps a lawyer would be a bit better on the English front?
August 28th, 2006 at 5:04 pmlooks like mighty tripey, in typical chickenhawk fashion, has cut n’ run when confronted with having to answer for her lies.
good riddance, tripey, you festering sore on the face of humanity!
August 28th, 2006 at 5:12 pm“Most experts agree, in the event of a full-scale civil war in Iraq, there is no useful role for U.S. troops.”
Most experts agree, under NO CIRCUMSTANCES is there to be any discussion of the four major permanent polymer-concrete golf-coursed AIRBASES, and the Citadel larger than the Vatican.
There is CERTAINLY to be no repitition of Kerry’s OUTING THE AIRBASES during the first debate of 2004, nor of his REPUDIATION of that illegal policy.
*Please continue to IGNORE THE AIRBASES, ThinkProgress, when maintaining the idiotic idea that THE CIVIL WAR THEY HAVE FOMENTED BY EVERY MEANS AVAILABLE, will have ANYTHING to do with the closing of those bases.*
They are the REASON for that civil war, from the start. “There IS NO MORE IRAQ. There will be four airbases and a citadel, and my adopted son Paul Bremer screwed the occupation pooch YEARS AGO in order to set us on that course.” — Henry Kissinger, briefing ThinkProgress
That is all.
August 28th, 2006 at 5:21 pm84,
Clearly MA is poorly educated. But I really want to see if she understands what she says. My current impression is that she throws words around like confetti, and runs like hell when someone tries to pin her down to a discussion.
But you never know, perhaps she has a vitally important case to deal with…
August 28th, 2006 at 5:22 pmPrince Muchkin – I have neither the time nor inclination to waste on you. Might I suggest you go back slowly read the post you question, and if all else fails, have a tutor come and assist you…..
Dear ProgREX – Apparently, you did not attend secondary school abroad. Apparently, none of your acquaitances did. I apologize for assuming you might have better manners or breeding.
My next appointment has arrived….
August 28th, 2006 at 5:23 pmTo the Neo-cons pulling out before the oil fields are dry could be considered defeat or a lost cause to them. To neo-cons winning at cost is the only option and loss is just something the Democrats have mastered. Defeat could make them scamper around like Joe Lieberman.
Even if the neo-cons don’t pump the oil now, the manipulators still can control the Iraq oil supplies by ratcheting the valves and like OPEC therefore the supply to the world. Less oil, higher prices and cheap oil to those in the inner loop, In the end the oil barons get richer beyond belief. Everyone else rides at the back of the bus, provided they have a bus to ride. You can’t trust the Bushies, Halliburton or the Carlyle group for a split second.
That is why need to turn the whole country back over the people who live there as nationals.
If they have a civil war or not is just an other control factor for those who want power. There are 3 different sects there and the occupying military force(s). Perhaps there need to be 3 countries. Each sect could have their own piece of the oil fields to boost the economies. If you don’t like the Kurds, don’t buy from the Kurds, If you don’t like the Arabs, don’t buy from the Arabs, If you don’t like the rest of the world, don’t buy from them and then create an alternatives, such as plug in cars. As everyone knows we are squandering our future.
If there is any justice in the world, Bush should go begging to the UN to take over the region while relinquishing control over any oil deals. After all it is their country and their oil. Perhaps a just desert would be if the French lead UN peacekeepers were called in to stabilize any conflict including a potential civil war.
Perhaps the neo-con are brainstorming how to save face and still control the oil fields during a civil war. Now how will they pull that off? Will Rove chip in?
Perhaps too Bush would like to explain again with typical mumbo jumbo spin how Iraq was linked to 9-11 and why we need to stay when being in the Middle East as an occupying military force is so obviously this moron’s (Dick Tatter) administrative mistake. Perhaps he has already admitted that Iraq wasn’t involved in 9-11. Perhaps it was Iran that was behind it and we need to reposition our troops to that new battle ground. in order to protect the Israelis. Al Quita / Talbon has previously stated that the guilty factions that the Israel and the US imperialist government were the reason for 9-11. The real guilt and root cause of the problem does come from multiple close-minded tunnel vision blinded sources including all the Islamic fundamentalists and their enemies. No one religion, political party or nation is totally at fault or is totally innocent.
August 28th, 2006 at 5:26 pmThe bigger picture in brief:
Politicians may not understand that much of the US manufacturing has been out-sourced to China and Latin America, while customer service has been out-sourced to India and Pakistan and that major corporations are shifting their huge profits in off shore bank and dummy money laundering foreign fronts.
Do they know that Pakistan has harbored the real terrorists their financial administrators such as Bin Laden? Due to an imbalance in trade China, Japan, Latin America and Middle East Oil countries, they can and does to some degree control the US economy to some large degree because the US in now a consumer state more than it is a producer state. North Korea like Pakistan is only blackmailing the US in order to get a variety of aid packages that the US government is more than willing to pay via the World Bank, the International Monetary Fund, the US Treasury and the CIA. The US policy in the past has been to cheaply buy, control and then squander the planet’s natural resources. Small developing and banana republics have pulled the same blackmail. The policy needs to change.
The real issue isn’t oil prices or even the price of tea (or labor) in China. It is really about having a government that has integrity, the ability to fairly negotiate with all the world partners, reducing the national debt, promoting peace and good will among all people, fostering individual growth while creating an economy that benefits American workers and to have an honest US citizenry that respects the letter of the law by obeying all of them including the international ones such as the trade agreements, the Keota protocol and Geneva convention rules. Until this happens America has lost its past strength and is waiting for a proper leader (such as Ralph Nader without the Green Party’s liberal socialist planks) to regain the stature it once desired as a genuine world power worthy of respect.
88,
So MA, you will not make a simple statement of your position and say that it can be deduced from your previous posts. But I do not see any coherent position, no matter how hard I look. Either I am incredibly simple, or you are.
August 28th, 2006 at 5:31 pmPrince Myshkin,
Don’t even bother trying to find a position in MA’s posts. (S)he is more interested in belittling people who disagree with her, than on stating her position clearly an unambiguously let alone debate.
She always says she is busy and has something else to do, but you wouldn’t guess it from the amount of time she spends here. If I spent this much time posting in some board, I’d try to be coherent. I am afraid this is as good as it gets, as far a MA’s cogency is concerned.
Lastly, I think someone’s education will always show through their posts. Now scroll back and re-read MA’s tripe. She says she retains the British spelling from her secondary school education, which presumably happened about two decades ago. Draw your own conclusions.
August 28th, 2006 at 6:03 pmahh, the continuing evolution of tripey’s story. i was born overseas you pathetic loser! that’s how i know you’re a fraud. funny, after being in america for a few years, my siblings and i started spelling and speaking like americans.
what’s your excuse?
what, after taking intensive legal writing courses in america, you still use british conventions? that pretty much makes you an idiot, tripey.
now i live overseas again, and i revert to british spellings as necessary for my work-related writings.
you, tripey, are full of shit. go crawl back in your herpes-infested nest you flatulent pig sucking whore. you’re a sociopathic fraud and everyone here knows it.
August 28th, 2006 at 6:11 pmtripey’s next appointment is her toothless pimp.
it’s good that you enjoy working on your back, tripey.
August 28th, 2006 at 6:13 pmOf course Senator Lugar does not want to see US troops out of Iraq, no matter what, here are the reasons:
1- Israeli lobby needs the occupation & slaughter of Iraq to cover its
occupation & slaughter of Palestine any other country they want in Middle east, under the guise of “fighting terrrist”. I mean who can say with straight face to Israelis why are you killing Arabs when US is doing the same times 10!
2- The military industrial complex is making a KILLING out of this non-ending Wars.
3- They can use these excuse of Wars not to give American people something as basic as Universal health care which every European country offers its citizens, and which lack of it BTW kills more Americans every few days than were killed in 9/11.
etc. etc.
Corruption & evil seems to have taken full control of our (US) government.
August 28th, 2006 at 6:17 pmyes, tripey’s lucky plan b is now available. please use plan b, tripey. don’t curse humanity with more of your hopeless offspring.
August 28th, 2006 at 6:21 pm91,
Really, I wanted to give myself some petty satisfaction by proving that MA wouldn’t outline her actual position, but instead bluster and then run. Sad, I know.
August 28th, 2006 at 6:39 pmseriously myshkin, there’s only one way to talk to tripey.
she’s a fictional person posting fake comments here. she deserves zero respect.
August 28th, 2006 at 6:59 pmMyshkin,
That’s alright. I do it sometimes too, when I feel like picking on someone. ;-)
I just wanted to give you a friendly warning, in case -you know- you actually had any expectations, being new to this blog and all…
August 28th, 2006 at 7:05 pmyes, i don’t think tripey has ever given anyone satisfaction in her entire made-up life
August 28th, 2006 at 7:09 pmThanks Gregor, Rex.
MA hardly seems the type to debate seriously, so I didn’t have too great an expectation. As I said though, it’s gratifying to have your expectations fulfilled.
August 28th, 2006 at 7:10 pmMy next appointment has arrived….
Comment by mighty aphrodite — August 28, 2006 @ 5:23 pm
John or innocent child to strangle and bury?
August 28th, 2006 at 7:50 pmthis is pretty disappointing (and surprising), considering that lugar has otherwise been a very pragmatic senator throughout his career — in other words, he’s been nothing like his foolhardy republican brethren.
but this statement is just that: foolhardy.
August 28th, 2006 at 10:21 pmI am thinking our “favourite” troll is not so American. British? Australian? South African?
August 28th, 2006 at 10:56 pmwell, canadians also use those spellings so don’t count them out. i live in australia, so i doubt it’s here because she never posts as late as i do (it’s 1:15 in the afternoon here).
my only point was that she’s no u.s. military-educated american lawyer, as she claims. that’s just utter horseshit.
August 28th, 2006 at 11:08 pmWhat a putz. Does he have a child or other family member over there. It’s just about the military industrial complex with most of these reichwing fascists.
August 28th, 2006 at 11:18 pm#91 – “Lastly, I think someone’s education will always show through their posts.”
Partial comment by Gregor Samsa……
*********My dear Grgrrrrrr, Your repetitious demonstration of being a lying sociopath can be explained if one examines various factors:
a.) your busy parents neglected to pay attention to you as a small child and you sought attention through overt lies and exaggeration.
b.) honesty was not stressed in your home – it was not a valued character trait.
c.) dishonesty was seen as a way to advance your goals.
I had an unfortunate client who suffered from terrible mental disease and defect – hopefully he’ll get the help he needs at Atascadero Mental Hospital…..
#92 – “you, tripey, are full of shit. go crawl back in your herpes-infested nest you flatulent pig sucking whore.” Comment by ProgREX
Dear ProgREX – Congratulation – Such excellent debating skills!!! Your verbal sophistication explains your fabulous success…Your mother said she tried to raise you better than you turned out….but your filthy fingers continue to disappoint her…
August 29th, 2006 at 1:36 amheh, as if you could ever try to claim the moral high ground, you complete skank. as if you, a complete failure as a mother and a human being, could even presume to speak down to me.
you are a worthless swamp harlot.
i see you’ve given up trying to explain your lies. you’re not american, you’re not a lawyer; you’re a complete sociopathic fraud. go crawl back into your whore hole.
August 29th, 2006 at 1:39 amwhy do you keep talking about your clients? the whore mongerers who pay you don’t care about your worthless life.
August 29th, 2006 at 1:41 amMighty Aphrodite,
An accusation of me being a “lying sociopath” is rich coming from you. You see, not content with belittling me, now you smear my parents. That’s what sociopaths do because they cannot empathise. Ironically enough, you might have revealed a whole lot more about yourself than you intended.
Your little list of factors seems more applicable to yourself than to me: I do not go to a blog to antagonise others and attract attention to myself, or to boast about my accomplishments, private school education, and “summa cum laude”, or to incite empathy by lying about the death of one of my children.
I will repeat myself: For all the time you spend here daily, and all the months you have been doing this, were you an attorney, you would have produced at least one substantial comment.
That you spend an inordinate amount of time harassing and belittling others shows you are simply incapable of it, and are no attorney.
August 29th, 2006 at 2:44 amOh, and Mighty,
Mentioning the mental hospital where your “client” is? Priceless.
When I was a teenager, I sometimes would tell my parents about my “friends” who needed relationship advise.
How long since you were released?
August 29th, 2006 at 2:56 amif you’ve ever been on glenn greenwald’s blog, you may have heard of bart (also referred to there as “he who should not be named”).
now THAT’S a wingnut attorney. he’s a total ass, but at least he puts forward cogent arguments, and you can tell he’s well-versed in the material.
it’s kind of like seixon, the batshit crazy norwegian whackjob right-wing cheerleader. there are times i despise him (because he continually claims to be a moderate and he’s nothing of the sort), but i’ve got to acknowledge that he does every once in awhile make strong points.
tripey, she’s just here for us to abuse (and if you can’t tell, i enjoy it — i figure there’s no harm insulting a fake person). don’t take her seriously for one minute. she’s a joke.
i don’t think she realizes it though. or should i say realises, tripey?
August 29th, 2006 at 3:43 amI believe that the Oil Companys like Exxon, Chevron, etc…, should pay restitution to the families of those soldiers that have died or are wouned and maimed because in reality that’s why we’re there in Iraq. If There was no Oil there do you think we would be spending billions and billions of dollars and blood? Bush doesn’t give a damn about democracy and freedom. He doesn’t even care about democracy right here in the united states. The Americans have been hard wired to accept as gospel what comes through the TV . We also aren’t willing to sacrifice any thing to stop the destruction of our democracy by our own government. If the people would just organize and bring everything to a dead stop, I believe things would turn around. By that I mean no shopping, no transportation, now working (except hospitals and emvergency ). Money is the ACHILLES HEEL of this country. Stop giving them your money and you will get their attention in a New York Minute.
August 29th, 2006 at 9:27 am