The best case is that President Bush’s speech in Utah was a cynical manipulation of the American public.
Perhaps this is why he portrays his unpopular war in Iraq as part of a heroic battle against the forces of evil. Sunni and Shia, Persian and Arab, Al Qaida and Hamas are all, he claims, “a single movement, a worldwide network of radicals.”
This mushy merger of rival groups and nations with vastly different histories and motives, some in actual combat with each other, may help the president convince some that they should back his war in Iraq as a way of defeating Hezbollah and Hamas. It helps him explain why he abandoned pursuit of Osama bin Laden to overthrow Saddam Hussein. They are, in his view, all the same.
Another possibility is that the president actually believes this simplistic notion picked up from the fringe writings of the radical right. He may believe that these petty groups and their posturing leaders “are successors to fascists, to Nazis, to communists and other totalitarians of the 20th century.” By inflating his enemies, he raises his own perceived role in history. He becomes the Churchillian leader of “the decisive ideological struggle of the 21st century.”
It is difficult to believe that the senior leadership in the National Security Council, the State Department and the Joint Chiefs of Staff supports this grandiose analysis. It is harder to believe that the senior analysts in the intelligence agencies have concurred with this distorted world view.
The worst case, however, is that the president will act on his vision. He expressly abandons decades of bipartisan efforts to manage world events and contain disruptive forces. “For a half-century, America’s primary goal in the Middle East was stability,” he says contemptuously, embracing the neoconservative notion that we use the U.S. military for serial regime change to force a new world order.
If so, this could be not just the political posturing of an election campaign but the unveiling of a new phase in the president’s long war. A war, he says, in which the “fighting there can be as fierce as it was at Omaha Beach or Guadalcanal.”
A grim prediction, a bizarre campaign platform, and a future we must reject.
the meat puppet can believe anything, but it is his dog dick that makes decsisions. one can’t actually imagine the moron doing more than basic bodily functions now can you? After all, he is rather heavily medicated all the time. Perhaps the only difference in dick and his puppet is the level of tranquilizers
September 1st, 2006 at 10:25 amIt is difficult to believe that the senior leadership…supports this grandiose analysis. It is harder to believe that the senior analysts in the intelligence agencies have concurred with this distorted world view.
well… it certainly makes you wonder…
September 1st, 2006 at 10:27 ambut, obviously, they did?
Bush doesn’t write his own speeches, he’s incapable of even talking from his head, much less write a speech. He doesn’t believe a thing, he just reads what’s written for him. W.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:28 amPresident Bush and Islamo-Mush/strong>
Best. Headline. Ever.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:28 am“are successors to fascists, to Nazis, to communists and other totalitarians of the 20th century.â€
Oh, so you mean like CHINA???? Yes, I see that are we really taking the stick to them…..and Sudan?? Oh yes, that’s right…..Saint George has stood by while thousands are slaughtered….but Sudan is helping us fight the war on terror……sick joke.
It’s always been the same….the USA will continue to support regimes and countries that are the polar opposite of freedom and justice if it suits the task at hand…we always have….always will…..nothing has changed in the past 100 years….why should it now.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:31 amHe believes whatever his handlers tell him to believe. He reads his lines then goes back to clearing brush.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:32 amNow that the UN has been forced to engage in Lebanon to confront Hezbollah, and just passed a vote to engage Islamic militants in the Darfur region of Sudan, the world will not be able to ignore conflicts with Islamic radicals. Americans won’t be able to hide their heads in the sand with all these conflicts occurring around the world.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:33 amThe idiot Bush lumps everything into two categories. Us and them. The man never read a book so how would he know the history of nations and peooples. He never traveled outside of the country to know that people are different. How did our fellow Americans purchase such a pig in a poke?
September 1st, 2006 at 10:34 amAre we so wrapped up in television that advertising can sell us “chicken feces” and we think it is “Chicken salad” as a president.
Are we as a nation so afraid of the world and ready for Armegeddon that we have lost our ability to think rationally? Has our collective IQ dropped that low?
Why are we letting the Christian Taliban set our foreign policy? Will we get out and vote to throw these troglodytes out of office and back into the caves from which they reared their ugly heads?
Who is Raymond S. Kraft? Anyone? Wo is paying him? He writes pro war propaganda. Anyone?
September 1st, 2006 at 10:35 am#5, Dr. Strange,
China, fortunately, has been undergoing its own reforms, opening up markets and allowing local level democratic processes take root, so it is best to leave them be for now. Moreover, China isn’t directly threatening any of its neighbors with annihilation, like Iran or North Korea.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:36 amHow’s that Crusade going George? Nice having the German government and the Pope on your side isn’t it?
Merkel backs more Christian EU constitution
September 1st, 2006 at 10:40 amThis is nothing new to Bush. Remember the Axis of Evil?
Iraq - Long standing hatreds with Iran. Ruled by a secular dictator who really, really hated Iran and anything to do with Iran.
Iran - Long standing hatreds with Iraq. Ruled by what amounts to being a theocracy, that really, really hated Iraq and anything to do with Iraq.
And numbah 3….
North Korea. A COMMUNIST state. Now what quote do we all remember Marx coining about religion? What was it again? Something to do with it being the “Opiate of the masses?” What was it that communist Russia termed people who believe in god? Oh yeah, “Psychiatric patients.”
September 1st, 2006 at 10:40 am…with all these conflicts occurring around the world.…
…THAT THE BUSH CABAL IGNORED, THEN STIRRED UP.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:41 amWith the war against Islamo-mush, you’ve found the right name for Bush’s foreign policy, but that’s only half the story.
Look what’s happening domestically. Bush’s adversaries at home are simply the growing majority. Call us mush if you like. Bush & Co. will either implode or arrive at the point where they are at war with everybody.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:43 amThe president conveniently forgets that Hamas is the legitimate, democratically elected representative of the Palestinian people. This gives lie to his claim that we invaded Iraq to democratize the Middle East. He ignores dicators like Musharraf when they are “allies” and threatens and demonizes democratically elected regimes when they do not kowtow to him and the US.
I know a brief history of Iran, at least since 1953. I am still not clear why Iran is an enemy of the US government.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:45 amNow that the UN has been forced to engage in Lebanon to confront Hezbollah, and just passed a vote to engage Islamic militants in the Darfur region of Sudan, the world will not be able to ignore conflicts with Islamic radicals. Americans won’t be able to hide their heads in the sand with all these conflicts occurring around the world.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 1, 2006 @ 10:33 am
Once again the pathetic Jason erects the straw men. Jason, quit systematically representating the views of other Americans. In other words, quit lying, or, better yet, just shut up until you have something honest to say. Or, even better, enlist today so you can knock down real men, instead of straw men.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:47 amJeffrey Stewart
Iran is currently considering trading oil in Euros. Once one major oil producing country starts doing that the rest might follow. There goes America’s currency, because once the dollar is no longer the medium of exchange in terms of oil, nobody really has that much reason to buy the degree of dollars they do today.
Oh yeah, and the Iranians don’t like America because of America playing both sides during Iran’s war with Iraq.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:49 amHe certainly does believe that all of these “Islamogroups” are the same. This conflation of all muslims into one large group to be feared is a lot easier than the alternative — sorting out the good guys from the bad guys — because the alternative would require Bushco to actually think for a moment. It would also require them to actually care about muslims as actual people.
Bushco has clearly shown that they’re incapable of either the thinking or the caring that’s required to make the distinction. But what else should we expect from the great crusaders of the 2000’s? In Bushco’s view, to paraphrase the drill sargeant from Full Metal Jacket, “the only good muslim is a dead muslim…
Oh, and while they’re at it, they’re also replacing the word “muslim” in the preceding quote with any other group that offends their reichstag way of thinking — “democrat”, “progressive”, “anti-war candidate”, etc.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:52 amGosh, for a second there I thought the cheney/rove puppet was talking about how the rest of the world views the USA.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:52 amThis is easily digestable crap to feed sheeple. I know my parents will by it. As sad as it is, get used to hearing it. The war on tera is a war on anyone who can remotely be described as bad.
September 1st, 2006 at 10:53 amYes “inflating the enemy” is he watch word. Listen to Joseph Cirincione on Fresh Air explain that the Neocons are “grandiosely paranoid.” First they exaggerate the threat posed by Iraq and then they inflate their own role in history as our saviors against this threat. Cirincione explains the great flaw in the neocon explanation of what is happening in the Middle East is their misunderstanding of the role of Nationalism.
Highly recommended. Listen here
John
September 1st, 2006 at 10:59 amhttp://beclear.blogspot.com/
This is the Mark Steyn, Rush, Krauthammer, Ladeen, Chaney view of the world; i.e. everything can be stripped down to a simple set of “basically” and “essentially” fill-in-blanks with Neocon ideology. These folks are not only dangerous, they are dangerously stupid.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:01 amDubya’s petty world view is perfect material for the most successful communication tool in media history…the 30 second prime time commercial. Since most Americans have little or no attention span let alone an interest in how their country impacts the rest of the world Bush’s world view is analogous to the information contained on a postage stamp.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:02 amAnd who is the leader of this movement? Is he still at large, perhaps? Who’s fault is that?
September 1st, 2006 at 11:04 amnlacey
That depends on what you think they want. If you think they want what is good for all Americans, then them being incredibly stupid is the most logical conclusion one can draw.
I take the view that they want what is good for themselves. I am a South African, I have seen this shit before, and I know guys who ran this shit before in other countries. My conclusion is that they are actually extremely canny politicians who know precisely what they are doing and what result it is going to have.
Think about it this way: What is the Republican idea of good government? A government which wins its elections and isn’t the other guy.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:06 amChina, fortunately, has been undergoing its own reforms, opening up markets and allowing local level democratic processes take root, so it is best to leave them be for now. Moreover, China isn’t directly threatening any of its neighbors with annihilation, like Iran or North Korea.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Speaking on China threatening its neighbors, what is the staus of Tibet and Taiwan again? And who has Iran threatened with annihilation? Or even N. Korea for that matter. Lots of stuff thrown out there Jason but please back up some of your “factoids”.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:07 amThe irony of ironies is the war in Iraq was supposed to safeguard Israel and establish a presence for US companies to cut oil deals and it looks like neither has occurred. Why is the President telling us the fears, but not asking for any sacrifices like it was all billable . If he took on OPEC and we spent 300 Billion on hybrid technology for vehicles like it was a Apollo project, we’d have a chance to cut off the funding for these collective IslamoMush co-ops and let them kick each other’s asses on their own ground.Then our support of Israel wouldn’t seem so duplicitous.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:09 amfly-man
Exactly. If you Americans want to fight terrorism and win, get serious about the enviroment.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:11 amRumsfeld and Bush are Right About Evoking Nazism – But It’s the Mirror That They Should be Looking At
There are two fundamental choices that an individual has to make in terms of deciding whether to follow the Bush Administration/Goering siren song of war as a tool to amass absolute power by a small elite group of plotters.
The first fundamental question is this: is the movement toward an Iran War being conducted primarily to protect us or primarily to achieve unprecedented one party power in the United States?
Of course, it is the second option, just as it was with Iraq. The Iraq War is such a fiasco, it made Iran the regional power it is today by removing Iraq as a restraining counterforce in the Middle East. In short, the Bush Administration created a War in Iraq that helped create the conditions for now “justifying” a war with Iran.
These are the tools used by dictators to direct the masses into a form of mass hysteria that leads to a population willingly giving up Constitutional powers and individual rights to the incontestable rule of a dictator.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:12 am#10 JMH- Is that so? Tell it to Taiwan, they will be glad to hear it, I’m sure.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:13 amHey… back off criticising Bush. If anyone should know about fascism, it’s the Bush family. Just Google Prescott Bush and Nazi. The Bush’s invented fascism. Takes one to know one.
Peace, please?
September 1st, 2006 at 11:14 am“They are, in his view, all the same…”
Kinda like what they do in that celebrated region of the United States, the South, when word spreads of a white person victimized by a black person and the mob lynches the very first black person they can find.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:17 amAmericans will support any war, even an unjust war, against any “enemy†as long as the enemy is demonized enough. But Americans need an identifiable enemy. We have to create the impression that all these various factions comprising of all these diverse people you would not recognize even if they came up and shook your hand, are all one identifiable, therefore defeat able, single enemy.
Secondly, we need favorable comparisons to memories that invoke pride and patriotism. Nothing does that better than memories of WWII where we kicked everybody’s ass and created two successful democracies. So we call this a World War - WWIII. We invoke Nazism, fascism and communism. Those are dangers Americans can appreciate and will rally against.
Tell everybody about this fascist enemy and mention WWIII every time you blink. It is not possible or even necessary that everybody buy this crap but it will still work like magic simply because comparisons to Vietnam will stop. Isn’t that what we wanted? Mission Accomplished.
September 1st, 2006 at 11:27 amWeird that Bush calls Islamics fascists, because Dubya Dunce Decider Despot is a FASCIST! George needs to look in a mirror to see the face of America’s real enemy!
September 1st, 2006 at 11:40 amI CANNOT believe ANYONE who defends this administration and the war are okay with this:
Soldiers Die, CEOs Prosper
September 1st, 2006 at 11:47 am“We’re now approaching the fifth anniversary of the day this war reached our shores. As the horror of that morning grows more distant, there is a tendency to believe that the threat is receding and this war is coming to a close. That feeling is natural and comforting — and wrong.”
So true, Mr. President. One needs only read many of the postings on ThinkProgress to see that many people have already forgotten the horror of 9/11 and the savage nature of the enemy we now face.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:01 pmhere is the real fascist http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WVG8-xFkkc
September 1st, 2006 at 12:04 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WVG8-xFkkc
Link works
September 1st, 2006 at 12:05 pm“Look, if you think any American official is going to tell you the truth, then you’re stupid. Did you hear that? -stupid.”
Arthur Sylvester, Assistant Secretary of Defense for Public Affairs, 1965
September 1st, 2006 at 12:08 pmBush & Co. is desperate and it’s going to get more nasty and hate-filled before November. The Bush presidency has been a complete failure and no one in the administration can deal with the truth or reality of the situation. So, over the cliff it is headed. That leaves only one question: how deep is the canyon?
September 1st, 2006 at 12:08 pmSo true, Mr. President. One needs only read many of the postings on ThinkProgress to see that many people have already forgotten the horror of 9/11 and the savage nature of the enemy we now face.
Comment by Exley — September 1, 2006 @ 12:01 pm
No we haven’t. The enemies are those in the Administration that are getting us into wars, taking away our civil rights, and creating a life of fear. Bush, Cheney, rumsfeld, et all.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:12 pmI doubt the people of NY have “forgotten the ‘horror’ of 9-11″, and they vote democrat. And as for the “savage nature” of the enemy, this is bullcrap, they are no more and no less horrible than any of the enemies America has faced. This Republofascist exhortation of these terrorists as some never before faced superhuman, super evil, super intelligent beings is nothing more than bull crap propoganda to make themselves appear important.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:16 pmBones, “they are no more and no less horrible than any of the enemies America has faced…”
I agree…The Islamo-fascists we currently fight are indeed as horrible as the Nazis.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:18 pmThe biggest failure is the Bush Administration’s willingness to label anyone who fights the US as a terrorist. It makes no difference to them if they are genuine terrorists or innocent civilians protecting themselves or members of a civil war. They are all brown people with guns so they are labelled terrorists. They don’t drop to their knees and vow servitude to the US take-over of their country so they must be evil terrorists.
This narrow minded viewpoint is not just extremely dangerous, but exactly what BREEDS terrorism and anti-AMericanism around the world.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:28 pmI agree…The Islamo-fascists we currently fight are indeed as horrible as the Nazis.Comment by Exley — September 1, 2006 @ 12:18 pm
Then you exley are an ignorant buffon. I don’t see the hundreds of thousands of troops, tanks, submarines, fighter planes. I don’t see millions of Jews going to ovens. I don’t see invasion of multiple countries with occupation forces. I don’t see thousands of Gis from around the world dying daily, i don’t see prisoner of war camps with thousands of American prisoners being mistreated. So no exley they are NOT
September 1st, 2006 at 12:31 pmJason and Exley,
Israel. and it’s agent, the U.S., create conflict to justify further conflict in the middle east. Land and resource grab, plain and simple. Do you really believe otherwise?
t-mac
September 1st, 2006 at 12:35 pmThe biggest failure is the Bush Administration’s willingness to label anyone who fights the US as a terrorist. It makes no difference to them if they are genuine terrorists or innocent civilians protecting themselves or members of a civil war. They are all brown people with guns so they are labelled terrorists. They don’t drop to their knees and vow servitude to the US take-over of their country so they must be evil terrorists.
As much as I’d like to agree with this… you’re wrong. The American military encourages Iraqi’s to stand up, pick up a weapon, and fight against would-be oppressors. For every Iraqi that doesn’t want us there, there are 10 that do. They want their freedom. They freely elected people that have said as much.
This narrow minded viewpoint is not just extremely dangerous, but exactly what BREEDS terrorism and anti-AMericanism around the world.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:44 pmSo what you’re essentially saying is that there was no terrorist breeding during the 8 great years of president Clinton. freedom breeds terrorism. That’s what the terrorists are trying to tell us. Proof is that they hit the WORLD trade center. They don’t just dislike America, they dislike those who are not like them… much like liberals
Well,of course the analytical hair splitters over at the TP “Think Tank” (talk about an oxymoron!) ARE able to differentiat between Sunni-wacks and Shiite-wacks! Congratulation!!! What progs seem UNABLE or UNWILLING to cncede is the goal of both groups:
a.) the elimination and destruction of our ally Israel
b.) the conversion or elimination of those with differing religious views
c.) the conversion or elimination of those with NO religious views.
The hair-splitters require exact replication of circumstances in order to concede the evolution of radical Islam - but it is truly surprising that such a “progressive” crowd is unable to examine parallels. Thank goodness there are enough people who understand the long term implications of placating Islamo-fascists…..they are the regressives here at TP.
Busy Day……’til later, whiny appeasers…..
September 1st, 2006 at 12:45 pmWell, this is probably a combination of a few different ‘motivations’, on the part of GWB. Given his ‘addictive’ history, what is more addictive than power? Especially the power that comes from being the President of the USA, although he has managed to ruin that as well. Since 9/11/01, GWB’s ambitions have continued to grow, and he and BushCo have busted ass to make the most of this once in a lifetime opportunity. And now, BushCo is feeling the heat of greatly intensified scrutiny, by a world that is getting the clue (finally!) that these people are CREATING the situation they claim to be devoted to destroying. So they’re getting nervous that they may not get to take the next step. Adding to that is all of the recent activities that are failing to be as successful at scaring us as they had been, and now they are escalating things to try to regain control over us. But it’s not working, and GWB is a hardcore power junkie now, who needs more and more, to get the same ‘buzz’, so that is why he’s on this little trip of his right now. He needs to feel ’special’, and he’s using the vets to do it.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:46 pmthis statement rings so damn true to our current predicament:
POWER CORRUPTS - ABSOLUTE POWER CORRUPTS ABSOLUTELY.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:47 pmMA - TURD DROPPINGS
Funny, though, how this dupe thinks that there are Muslims out there trying to CONVERT ANYONE. When all along its the CHRISTIANS who have tried to force conversion on the rest of the world. And as far as the RAPTURE is concerned, how many jews in Israel know that they are condemned to hell on earth along with the rest of us if they DON’T CONVERT!
September 1st, 2006 at 12:49 pmthe UN […] just passed a vote to engage Islamic militants in the Darfur region of Sudan, the world will not be able to ignore conflicts with Islamic radicals.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 1, 2006 @ 10:33 am
This shows you how facts mean nothing to Mr. Hendler.
It has been widely reported -and I pointed it out to him- that the Sudan’s Janjaweed militia is not a radical Islamic militant group but a paramilitary militia trained, funded, and armed by the Sudanese government to crush local separatist movements. Khartoum has been using the Janjaweed as a counter-insurgency force -which is the reason why the Sudanese government (also headed by Muslims, the horror!) has rejected, opposed, and blocked any attempt by the UN to send peacekeeping troops to the region.
But that story doesn’t fit with Mr. Hendler’s view of a world threatened by those big, bad Muslims bent on world domination (??).
September 1st, 2006 at 12:50 pmWith nostrils flairing, George W. Bush went into his usual malarky about how all terrorists are blissed in marriage with the common goal of striking inside the United States and how his strategy is “to get them over there so we don’t have to get them here”.
Next, he stepped out from behind the podium and tensed his shoulders and arms as though he was some menacing action figure.
It made me want to puke.
This is Bush’s third major PR offensive just this year to shore up his failed administration. Each one has been more obnoxious than the previous one.
What ever happend to his “Plan For Victory” and its strategy of “Clear, Hold, Build”.
Didn’t happen. Why? The “P” word was not “plan” but “platitude”. That still has not changed. The “hold” and “build” part of the strategy has always been a blank piece of paper. Will that stop Bush from going forward with “clear” against Iran? Now that is really scarey.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:50 pmBusy Day……’til later, whiny appeasers…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite — September 1, 2006 @ 12:45 pm
Bujsy day? Killing and skinning innocent children to wear? Raping and torturing bunnies? Spitting in the faces of the old and infirmed? Foring Hebrews at gunpoint to eat shellfish? Peeing on the graves of dead soldiers? you piece of worthless filth.
September 1st, 2006 at 12:58 pm[…] Think Progress - President Bush and Islamo-Mush […]
September 1st, 2006 at 1:19 pmIt is difficult to believe that the senior leadership in the National Security Council, the State Department and the Joint Chiefs of Staff supports this grandiose analysis. It is harder to believe that the senior analysts in the intelligence agencies have concurred with this distorted world view.
Who the hell cares? As long as rich get richer and poor people keep dying, who really cares?
September 1st, 2006 at 1:22 pmFascist countries in the recent past always seem to be invading other countries. Germany most of Europe, Italy North Africa. Let’s see now what two armies have invaded other countries in the past couple of years?
September 1st, 2006 at 1:32 pmHe is a Sith Lord if there ever was one…..Yoda, where are you?
September 1st, 2006 at 1:50 pma political system in which all power of government is vested in a person or group with no other power to balance and limit the activities of the government. Fascist governments are often closely associated with large corporations and sometimes with extreme nationalism and racist activities. Modern fascism is often called “CORPORATISM”.
Sound familiar???????
September 1st, 2006 at 1:54 pmBush is just a puppet, don’t blame him for being just that. We all know that Presidents govern under the influence of the power groups that brougth them to office.
September 1st, 2006 at 1:55 pmFound this on Buzzflash.com this morning. Someone should buy commerical time on radio & t.v. and run this endlessly a month before the election.
Here is how an American Army interviewer recounts a conversation with Nazi leader Hermann Goering, as the latter awaited trial at Nuremberg:
“Why, of course, the people don’t want war,” Goering shrugged. “Why would some poor slob on a farm want to risk his life in a war when the best that he can get out of it is to come back to his farm in one piece. Naturally, the common people don’t want war; neither in Russia nor in England nor in America, nor for that matter in Germany. That is understood. But, after all, it is the leaders of the country who determine the policy and it is always a simple matter to drag the people along, whether it is a democracy or a fascist dictatorship or a Parliament or a Communist dictatorship.”
“There is one difference,” I pointed out. “In a democracy the people have some say in the matter through their elected representatives, and in the United States only Congress can declare wars.”
“Oh, that is all well and good, but, voice or no voice, the people can always be brought to the bidding of the leaders. That is easy. All you have to do is tell them they are being attacked and denounce the pacifists for lack of patriotism and exposing the country to danger. It works the same way in any country.”
September 1st, 2006 at 1:57 pmwhat a great spin by the war machine ! When caught behaving like a dictator ,spying on Americans ,collecting vast data bases of the phone records and the visited web sites of all Americans , claim to be fighting Hitler in the 21 st century and put on a media blitz .
September 1st, 2006 at 2:15 pmWhile dismantling the constitution ,waving basic rights ( habeas corpus and the Geneva conventions ) and using signing statements to override the separation on powers ,say its so Americans can remain free .
After causing the deaths 10’sof 1000’s of human being in a war over TOTALLY false premises waged by oil executives ,lay out the case for the invasion of the neighboring regime and frame it as a war against evil .
While speaking of democracy for the rest of the non western world topple the nearest democracy quietly and prepare to tighten the races in the more than half the states which will vote on electronic voting machines ,which ( as pointed out by numerous computer experts ) can not be trusted for accuracy .
So what you’re essentially saying is that there was no terrorist breeding during the 8 great years of president Clinton. freedom breeds terrorism. That’s what the terrorists are trying to tell us. Proof is that they hit the WORLD trade center. They don’t just dislike America, they dislike those who are not like them… much like liberals
Comment by coachjason
No, we’re not saying there were no terrorists during Clinton’s presidency. What we are saying is that the Bush administration fails to consider the impact of our foreign policies on current and potential terrorists. If “freedom breeds terrorism”, then why are we trying to bring “freedom” to Iraq? What breeds terrorism is a sense of powerlessness. It does not matter if that lack of power comes from living under a dictatorship or having another country occupy land that is important to you. And I am really tired of the “liberals hate America” routine. I give my standard reply to that: like a loving parent that corrects his or her child, a true patriot will correct his or her country.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:26 pmAre these nomadic terrorist groups fascists because of their strong central governments or because of their vast corporate ties?
September 1st, 2006 at 2:31 pm#47 I have a friend who has served in Iraq and wants to go back. He buys all the presidents bull shit about fighting them there rather than here, and that we had to hit Iraq because of 911 blah blah blah. My point being that he really believes in the mission. He said, after his year long tour was over (which I am assuming is a year longer than you served there) that the only Iraqi’s he encountered who were not pissed off by his presence were the children.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:32 pm#45 Bones, you are contradicting yourself. First you say the enemy we face today is as bad as any other enemy we have faced in our past. Yet, when I agreed you, you claimed I was an “ignorant buffoon” for doing so…It’s actually quite amusing to watch you work yourself into a lather, critiquing your own statement.
Moreover, your posting has nothing to do with the savage nature of the Islamists and the Nazis. While their methods are different, their nihilist ideologies are directly comparable.
Furthermore, consider the following:
1) Hitler did not have the access to the technology these Islamist terrorist groups have.
2) Hitler never acquired nuclear weapons.
3) Hitler did not have the kinds of fifth columns this enemy may have.
4) Hitler never managed to kill Americans on American soil.
You severely underestimate the threat posed by these savages.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:35 pmPLC I never said you didn’t love your country, what I’m saying is that you’d rather just abort me than have to deal with me (me being one whose views are not yours). And until a liberal says it out loud, I’ll never even think that you don’t love your country. Like I said before, where else could we have this debate? If a school bully set off a firecracker under your kids clothes (you know the same kid you correct all the time), would you let your kid fight back, or would you your child that maybe he deserved it. Maybe he should try to understand the bully… give the bully his lunch money.. and generally just let him do what he wants to your child. Or would you teach your kid to defend himself wherever and whenever he sees that bully.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:38 pmWhile I do believe you libs love America it’s blatently obvious you could care less about Iraqis.
Exley
September 1st, 2006 at 2:43 pmBush aims our resources at the wrong “savages” and, by doing so, ignores the threat of the real “savages”. Then, he uses Western (Christian) language to inflame the passions further. Then, he builds permanent structures on land considered holy. All the while, he clearly states that the alleged mastermind of 9-11 does not concern him. Who’s underestimating, misinterpreting, and misleading?
No exley, I made a point that we as Americans have faced forces as bad or worse than the supposed “invincible terrorists” in the past and since we have faced as bad or worse, scaring people that somehow this threat is greater than “any threat America has ever faced” is a lie. You then ran with the ball stating the terrorists are as bad as the Nazis, again ridiculous or an overstatement for dramatic effect, even though it’s not true. Add up every American casualty or destroyed American asset and the Islamic terrorists don’t come close to the damage done by the Nazis. And no exley, i don’t undersestimate ANYONE, ever. If you want savage nature let’s look at Blackwater and other merceneries for hire beating prisoners to death, raping children in front of their parents to get them to “confess”, rendering Canadian citizens to egypt to be tortured. No Exley you are the “savage threat” thet endangers the world.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:44 pm#47 I have a friend who has served in Iraq and wants to go back. He buys all the presidents bull shit about fighting them there rather than here, and that we had to hit Iraq because of 911 blah blah blah. My point being that he really believes in the mission. He said, after his year long tour was over (which I am assuming is a year longer than you served there) that the only Iraqi’s he encountered who were not pissed off by his presence were the children.
Comment by Mark — September 1, 2006 @ 2:32 pm
I swore I’d never do this but if you’re going to, like most cowards, try to back me into a corner then I’m coming out swinging. I spent 8 months in Iraq. Jan to Aug 2005, and I can tell you they were the longest months of my life. I had to look my wife and three boys in the eye and kiss them goodbye and pray to God that I’d get to see them again. I was in the marine reserve unit that took more casualties than any other in that amount of time. In fact, I have since had to visit the graves of two of my closest friends.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:49 pmOn the other hand, I’ve been hugged, kissed, thanked and even given gifts by Iraqi children, Iraqi women, and IRAQI men. Like I’ve said, the decent people of Iraq praise us for giving them what they longed for… freedom. None of this is to say that I agree with our invasion in the first place, I’m just telling you how wrong you are.
So MARK, if you ever want to challenge me, my patriotism, or my manhood again, then I suggest you do it in person, not hiding behind a blog or a fake name. I’ve given my name recently and will do it again if it brings the likes of true cowards like you into my presence.
I pray also that your friend going to Iraq gets home safely, since he’s obviously the man in your relationship.
No, Bones, I saw the face of savagery on 9/11….I haven’t forgotten it. Apparently, you have.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:49 pmcoachjason
September 1st, 2006 at 2:51 pmYou said “they” (terrorists) don’t like America, just like liberals. Fighting is not the only answer to bullies - I know, I was a big target as a youngster. I learn to talk my way around bullies and, yes, did also stand up to one physically - but I didn’t have to “shock and awe” him with every physical weapon I could (and we had some guns on the farm, BTW). Extending your analogy - would you have the target of a bully take his anger out on his or her sibling or a neighbor kid not involved? That’s what we did in terms of 9-11 and Iraq. Saying liberals don’t care about Iraqis is a false dichotomy - if I have to choose American soldiers/American way of life over Iraqis, then you are correct. However, I fail to see how our continued presence in Iraq, flaming sectarian passions is doing Iraqis any good at all. All there results is more death and more destruction.
PLC There’s no nice way to say this but you essentially are saying that you appeased the bully. You did nothing to stop him from bullying the next person. You, in fact, encouraged other bullies to bully you because they all knew you’d give in under pressure.
September 1st, 2006 at 2:59 pmI too want an end to the death and destruction. I cannot, in good conscience, say anything less. But the people of Iraq deserve the security we’ve promised to bring them. We must rid that country of those who want absolute control over people without the means or the knowledge to defend themselves. I could easily say that you don’t know because you haven’t been there, but that would be a cop out. you don’t know because you are misinformed. You have chosen to believe those who want their power back and will stop at nothing to get it.
No, Bones, I saw the face of savagery on 9/11….I haven’t forgotten it. Apparently, you have.
Comment by Exley — September 1, 2006 @ 2:49 pm
No exley, I have not forgotten anything but when I tell you Americans have raped little boys in front of their parents to get them to confess, apparently your memory is very selective/non-existent.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:04 pmAnd exley, that’s the difference between an honest just human being and a political tool, like you.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:05 pmthe sheeples can continue to believe whatever they are told by their masters, there is no getting through to them, and is just plain futile. The part of the brain that allows humans to think things through is obviously lacking in 30% of our population.
if they don’t think for one minute that their government could give a rat’s ass about them - just wait. Just like the third reich did to their own people. History DOES REPEAT ITSELF.
If there is any DOUBT whatsoever, about what this government is capable of, then I suggest you take a look at this recently declassified bit of history
Operation Northwoods
September 1st, 2006 at 3:06 pmcoachjason
September 1st, 2006 at 3:07 pmWho says I gave in under pressure? I took the conflict to an area I could win. None of the bullies could fight me verbally and I was never physically hurt. And you know, those bullies ended up with MUCH worse consequences - divorced, alcoholic, dead - while I live happily and successfully. You are assuming also that the Iraqis have no power to take care of or defend themselves - pretty patronizing if you ask me. The arguments about Iraq are so eerily similar to the “domino” theory talk of the VietNam era and as faulty. “Misinformed” is rather condescending - I could just as easily say that you have chosen to believe those who wanted to extend their power. In fact, I will.
Best moment of Presidency quotes: Carter, Clinton, and Bush
How did President Carter answer the question?
“I think the best time was probably dealing with the Middle East issue at Camp David,” he said, “and even better I think was the peace treaty that came along six months later. I made a very difficult decision over the almost unanimous opposition of my cabinet and my staff to take the initiative and to go to Egypt and to go to Israel to try to get Begin and Sadat to agree on a peace treaty. And when they did sign-both of them signed the agreement-I guess that was probably my best moment.”
How did President Clinton answer the question?
JIM LEHRER: As we sit here right now, Mr. President, is this the best moment of your presidency?
PRESIDENT CLINTON: Oh, no, I won’t say that. I don’t know. So many things have happened here at home that have been important to me; passing economic plan, passing the Brady Bill and assault weapons ban, so many things have happened internationally, the role that I was fortunate to be able to play in the peace process in the Middle East and in Northern Ireland, but this could have the biggest long-term positive consequences if we do it right. But frankly, I hadn’t, you know — Sometimes people say “do you feel vindicated?” The answer is no. I think America has been vindicated. I think what we stand for has been vindicated. But keep in mind that there have been times in the past where people win a conflict and then squander the peace. So a lot of our work is still ahead of us. We’ve gotta get the people home, get the land mines up, work out the details of who is involved in the peacekeeping mission. We have to get this — We’ve got to organize police forces and civil government for the Kosovars. And then the really big thing over the long-run, our European friends want to take the lead in this but we ought to help them, we’ve got to get the World Bank and all these other people involved in a development plan for the Balkans that involves not just Kosovo, but Macedonia, Albania, Bulgaria, Romania, and I hope someday Serbia if they have a government that respects freedom and democracy and human rights. So that these people have something pulling them together instead of these ancient ethnic troubles pulling them apart.
Now if we get all that done, it might be perhaps the most satisfying thing because it might prove that people can lay down their hatreds of people who are different. You know, I basically think free people will figure out a way to make the most of their lives and work out their problems if they can get the rules of engagement right. That’s why I gave somewhat of an extended answer to what you said about the Republicans. Because, I think, you know, differences are good. Nobody’s got the whole truth. But you gotta get the rules of engagement right. And I think what we did in Kosovo was profoundly important.
How did President Bush answer the question?
You know, I’ve experienced many great moments and it’s hard to name the best,” Bush told weekly Bild am Sonntag when asked about his high point since becoming president in January 2001.
“I would say the best moment of all was when I caught a 7.5 pound (3.402 kilos) perch in my lake,” he told the newspaper in an interview published on Sunday.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:11 pmThis could actually fix the whole mess: Israel: Time For Soul-Searching
September 1st, 2006 at 3:15 pmPLC So we should talk the terrorists out of hating us? when Reagan did that to communism you villified him, to this day he doesn’t get his due credit for ending the cold war.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:16 pmAs for bullies, the biggest baddest bully I grew up with now plays linebacker for the N.E. Patriots. I stood up to him, got beat up, and was never again bothered by anyone else. And when I say the Iraqi’s have no way to defend themselves I’m right. Most could not get a gun under Saddam’s rule. So the guys with the guns have the control, much like our constitution lets us have guns to keep our government afraid of the people. They have no military training. They have no schools to learn tactics and engagement methods. this is what they need the most.
When you accuse me of listening to those eho want to extend their power, why am I here on a liberal blog. I’m trying to listen to and inform “your” side of the things I’ve learned. Just as I’m trying to learn from you. Whereas you sit here, hanging only with your liberal friends. But that’s enough poking fun for me. Like I said I’m trying to learn and teach and have no interest in name calling.
Furthermore, consider the following:
1) Hitler did not have the access to the technology these Islamist terrorist groups have.
2) Hitler never acquired nuclear weapons.
3) Hitler did not have the kinds of fifth columns this enemy may have.
4) Hitler never managed to kill Americans on American soil.
You severely underestimate the threat posed by these savages.
Comment by Exley — September 1, 2006 @ 2:35 pm
This is the kind of off-the-wall stuff that Bush supporters have to tell themselves to keep believing and avoid confronting the fact that they are very, very, wrong. The longer they forestall this inevitability, the more painful it will become. We can already see the confusion and damage this kind of extreme denial induces.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:17 pm1) Hitler did not have the access to the technology these Islamist terrorist groups have. Exley comment
More bull, the Romans had short swords, catapults, and crosses - they didn’t have any problem killing hundreds of thousands. you need “technology” to kill a lot of people?
September 1st, 2006 at 3:21 pm85 Bones Back then short-swords and catapaults were advanced technology. Beats a stone, a fist, and a torch!
September 1st, 2006 at 3:26 pmComment by coachjason
But does it beat rock, paper, scissors?
September 1st, 2006 at 3:28 pmeither way you have to win 2 out of 3 right?
September 1st, 2006 at 3:28 pm#36
“We’re now approaching the fifth anniversary of the day this war reached our shores. As the horror of that morning grows more distant, there is a tendency to believe that the threat is receding and this war is coming to a close. That feeling is natural and comforting — and wrong.â€
So true, Mr. President. One needs only read many of the postings on ThinkProgress to see that many people have already forgotten the horror of 9/11 and the savage nature of the enemy we now face.
Don’t try to tell me what I have or haven’t forgotten. The Democrats haven’t forgotten about terrorists at all. And you’ve got it completely backwards. Bush forgot who it was that attacked us on 9/11. He forgot he was going to get bin Laden “dead or alive”. He forgot that bin Laden was on the Afghanistan-Pakistan border and nowhere near Iraq. Not only does he keep forgetting that Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11, but when he’s reminded of it, he forgets it again within seconds.
Which “enemy” are you talking about that we now face? Al Qaeda? Iraqi insurgents? The Shia? The Sunnis? Hezbollah? Hamas? Or some imaginary amalgam of all of them under the make-believe heading of “Islamic fascists”?
And since your memory isn’t any better than Bush’s, here’s a reminder: Iraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Al Qaeda was in Afghanistan, not Iraq. Bush pulled troops out of Afghanistan to invade Iraq. Any terrorists who are now in Iraq arrived after Bush launched his war, not before. Why can’t you right-wingers get that straight? I’d check into the possibility of early onset Alzheimers if I was incapable of remembering something like that.
And on top of that, your man-crush on Bush is sickening to behold.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:31 pmWere the discipline of this Movement not so firm, those who today complain of the sacrifices demanded of them would have even more of which to complain.
For what we fighters have gained does not compare to the amount of persecution we suffered.
Let the bellyachers realize that, wherever they are.
Adolf Hitler
September 1st, 2006 at 3:31 pmApril 8, 1933
PLC I love our little debate we’re having. And were you here now… I’d offer to continue this over a beer. But I now have to go home to my family that I love so much. You have a great 3day weekend. Maybe we can pick this back up on Tuesday. If you get a chance this weekend… thank a vet. (Veteran, not veteranarian for you slower libs).
September 1st, 2006 at 3:38 pmIt’s another page from Hitler’s playbook:
“The art of leadership …consists in consolidating the attention of the people against a single adversary and taking care that nothing will split up that attention….The leader of genius must have the ability to make different opponents appear as if they belonged to one category.” Adolf Hitler (Mein Kampf, vol. 1, ch. 3 (1925))
September 1st, 2006 at 3:44 pm#48 Whiny Halfwit-ite
The hair-splitters require exact replication of circumstances in order to concede the evolution of radical Islam - but it is truly surprising that such a “progressive†crowd is unable to examine parallels. Thank goodness there are enough people who understand the long term implications of placating Islamo-fascists…..they are the regressives here at TP.
Oh goody, another epithet from MA. This time it’s “hair-splitters”. Is that your way of saying “Don’t bore me with the details. Muslims are Muslims. Just kill them all?” So, if we’re against that sentiment, it’s the bad kind of hair-splitting. But when Bush says “…nobody has suggested in this administration that Saddam Hussein ordered the attack,” that would be the good kind of hair-splitting? The kind that comes from the mouths of Republicans all day every day.
Could you force yourself to engage in a little of that bad kind of hair-splitting for just a second and indulge us by explaining who the “Islamo-fascists” are comprised of? What sects? Where do they come from? What brought them together? And how in the f*ck can a stateless group of people, real or imaginary, be fascists?!! How can a group of people, who have no government to begin with, possibly stand accused of being totalitarian? (I think he actually said something like “tee-total-toe-tappin’-terriers” but I know that’s what he meant)
Just answer one question. Yes or no. Are you really stupid enough to be buying the crap Bush is spewing?
September 1st, 2006 at 3:51 pmcoachjason
OK, you’ve been subtle but engaging in the same name-calling, black and white labelling that is typical of the neocons. I highlight:
PLC So we should talk the terrorists out of hating us?
What’s wrong with talking to intermediaries? And I only offered talking as another option, not the only or necessarily the best. We may not talk them out of hating us but maybe we can talk them out of trying to blow us up.
when Reagan did that to communism you villified him, to this day he doesn’t get his due credit for ending the cold war.
By “you”, it seems you think you know my opinion about Reagan, which I have never posted here.
As for bullies, the biggest baddest bully I grew up with now plays linebacker for the N.E. Patriots. I stood up to him, got beat up, and was never again bothered by anyone else.
Again, one way. Not the only one. And we didn’t need to beat up Saddam.
And when I say the Iraqi’s have no way to defend themselves I’m right. Most could not get a gun under Saddam’s rule. So the guys with the guns have the control, much like our constitution lets us have guns to keep our government afraid of the people. They have no military training. They have no schools to learn tactics and engagement methods. this is what they need the most.
Why don’t they after 4 years! We give our soldiers a crappy few weeks of training and throw them into battle. Why aren’t we putting Iraqis through active training, arming them. Why aren’t there tactical schools? I’m all for it. And set them a time table so we aren’t enabling them through “military welfare”. You don’t think the Iraqi people know who the “bad guys” in their country are better than we do?
When you accuse me of listening to those eho want to extend their power, why am I here on a liberal blog. I’m trying to listen to and inform “your†side of the things I’ve learned. Just as I’m trying to learn from you. Whereas you sit here, hanging only with your liberal friends. But that’s enough poking fun for me. Like I said I’m trying to learn and teach and have no interest in name calling.
Are you omniscient so you know who I’m “hanging with”? Your brand of name-calling is not slogan based but is nonetheless apparent.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:52 pmFurthermore, consider the following:
1) Hitler did not have the access to the technology these Islamist terrorist groups have.
2) Hitler never acquired nuclear weapons.
3) Hitler did not have the kinds of fifth columns this enemy may have.
4) Hitler never managed to kill Americans on American soil.
You severely underestimate the threat posed by these savages.
Comment by Excrementley — September 1, 2006 @ 2:35 pm
Really Herodotus?
You might want to open a history book next time before you make a bigger fool out of yourself than you normally do.
Lets examine your “historical facts”.
1) Hitler did not have the access to the technology these Islamist terrorist groups have.
Really? A, genius, no one had the technology we had today so your point is moot. A Red Herring. Of course they didn’t have todays technology. NOBODY DID.
And B, Hitler actually had SUPERIOR technology for his time. Swiss and German made armament and weaponry and instrumentation was the best of its time. The Messerschmitt was one of the best planes of the war. The Mark 1 Tiger was vastly superior to the Allies Grants, Shermans, Churchills and Stuarts. The Panzer 4 was a fast mobile well equipped battle tank. The MP40, the Luger, the MG42, all superior weapons. Even their steel was better than ours.
2) Hitler never acquired nuclear weapons.
Actually it is believed today that Hitler did explode several atomic devices that caused the deaths of thousands of prisoners. Werner Heisenberg had made successful advancements in the technology and it is believed that they had successfully detonated several devices, although these devices were to clumsy to be delivered yet. Either way, all the experts believe that Germany was only a matter of months away from completing a working atomic weapon.
3) Hitler did not have the kinds of fifth columns this enemy may have.
Once more you show what a historical idiot you are. (Or is it hysterical idiot?)
Don’t think Hitler had any fifth columns? So I guess the Selbstschutz was a figment of my imagination?
Better read up Ex. You’re showing your ass again.
4) Hitler never managed to kill Americans on American soil.
Once again you should open a history book.German U Boats sank more than 24 of our ships off the Coast of Florida. Maybe you think because they weren’t standing on the beach their deaths don’t count? Also you are forgetting that Hitler sent TERRORISTS to our soil to blow up buildings and kill American citizens. Or have you never heard of the “Florida Four”?
Next time you want to try and sound smart, shoot me your peice so I can proof it for you.
This one was embarrasing.
September 1st, 2006 at 3:57 pmPLC
September 1st, 2006 at 4:00 pmOne more thing I guess… I really do weant to avoid name calling. It’s not very becoming of me and does no good in advancing any arguement. So for that I apologize. When I addressed Mark, I will absolutely call him every name I can think of. When it comes to fellow christians with half a brain or more, you deserve my respect. What I meant by “hanging with” is that you’re here in a liberal chat room. Sorry if that’s offensive. I do mean it when I say have a good weekend. Maybe later we can find that elusive middle ground.
Coachjason, I like your John Wayne style….delusional.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:06 pmOh no, look, you went and turned the other cheek…..and in the strong, traditional, liberal way, I hereby retract the John Wayne comment. The whole bully and guns thing reminds me of Columbine……not good.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:10 pmNice try, Worefus, but there was no Selbstschutz organizations within the United States. They existed in Central and Eastern Europe…
In suggesting that there were, were you being ignorant or dishonest?
September 1st, 2006 at 4:23 pmIn fact, this whole new schtick of the President (Karl Rove) in comparing the terrorists to the Nazi’s is a laughable as it is inaccurate.
Comparing a rag tag group of disorganized bandits with bombs with the elite, well organzied, superiorly equipped German war Machine is laughable.
Germany was a country. They war uniforms. They had massive Armour forces. A powerful NAVY. A powerful AIR FORCE. There is NO comparison between them and the terrorists. NONE.
Its like comparing some kids playing monopoly with the NFL. It makes no sense.
If anyone sees this for anything more than an attempt to curb the very REAL comparisons of Hitlers rise to power and his ABUSE of it, and George Bush’s similar rise to power and ABUSE of it, then I’ve got some great swampland for sail in Florida for them.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:23 pmNice try, Worefus, but there was no Selbstschutz organizations within the United States. They existed in Central and Eastern Europe…
In suggesting that there were, were you being ignorant or dishonest?
Comment by Excrement — September 1, 2006 @ 4:23 pm
You’re an idiot. An idiot of the highest order.
Here. Lets look at your question.
3) Hitler did not have the kinds of fifth columns this enemy may have.
Comment by Exley — September 1, 2006 @ 2:35 pm
NOWHERE in your question do you stipulate they have to be on American soil. NOWHERE.
You CLEARLY state that “HITLER DID NOT HAVE THE KINDS OF FIFTH COLUMNS THIS ENEMY MAY HAVE”.
You NEVER state WHERE they operate. The fact is Hitler DID have Fifth columns operating in Poland and you were WRONG.
Now you want to “qualify” your statement. Too late. You already made it.
Idiot.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:27 pm#91 coachjason
If you get a chance this weekend… thank a vet.
Gee, thanks for the advice. I think I will. Apart from looking in the mirror, I’ll probably be seeing quite a few of them this weekend, because in addition to the several I know running for office as Democrats this year, there are a whole lot more who are out there working to get them elected. What do they all have in common? They’re disgusted with the way the chickenhawks in the White House–goddam pussies, every last one of them–have been working extra hard at destroying our nation’s defenses. If Bush and Rumsfeld would listen to officers on the ground, the idiotic invasion of Iraq wouldn’t have resulted in the extreme f*ckup of an occupation we’re seeing now. If you think we’re fighting terrorism in Iraq right now, you need to back away from the Kool-Aid jug.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:28 pmAnd claiming I stated the Selbstschutz were in the US is another one of your idiot lies.
Lies.
I never said NOR IMPLIED they operated in the US.
I know more about the Selbstschutz they you’d know on your best day. I also speak German and have forgotten more about WW2 than you ‘ll ever know.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:30 pmWorefus is misrepresenting the facts when he says that it is “widely believed that Hitler exploded several atomic devices.” He is obviously basing that claim on a book that was released in March 2005, called “Hitler’s Bombe,” in which author Rainer Karlsch claims that Nazi scientists successfully tested a tactical nuclear weapon in the last months of World War II.
Unfortunately for Worefus, the book was met with great skepticism by historians and physicists:
“It has been common knowledge for decades that the Nazis carried out atomic experiments, but it has been widely believed they were far from developing an atomic bomb.
The bomb was much smaller than the weapon dropped on Hiroshima
“The eyewitnesses he puts forward are either unreliable or they are not reporting first-hand information; allegedly key documents can be interpreted in various ways,” said the influential news weekly Der Spiegel.
“Karlsch displays a catastrophic lack of understanding of physics,” wrote physicist Michael Schaaf, author of a previous book about Nazi atomic experiments, in the Berliner Zeitung newspaper.
“Karlsch has done us a service in showing that German research into uranium went further than we’d thought up till now, but there was not a German atom bomb,” he added.
It has also been pointed out that the United States employed thousands of scientists and invested billions of dollars in the Manhattan Project, while Germany’s “dirty bomb” was allegedly the work of a few dozen top scientists who wanted to change the course of the war.”
Even the author itself admitted that he did not have absolute proof to verify his controversial claim:
“Karlsch himself acknowledged that he lacked absolute proof for his claims, and said he hoped his book would provoke further research.”
So, Worefus, when you claimed that it is now “widely believed” that Hitler exploded “several atomic devices,” were you being ignorant or just dishonest?
September 1st, 2006 at 4:31 pm“I also speak German”
So, you can lie in two languages….Good for you!
September 1st, 2006 at 4:35 pmWorefus writes: “NOWHERE in your question do you stipulate they have to be on American soil. NOWHERE.”
Another deception by Worefus. Very clearly in my first posting on this topic, I am addressing the United States’ war against terrorism and the threat posed by Islamist savages to the United States. I even quote the president, ““We’re now approaching the fifth anniversary of the day this war reached our shores.”
So, again, Worefus, I must ask, when you implied that Selbstschutz was active in the United States, were you being dishonest or were you just ignorant?
If it was just ignorance. don’t be ashamed to admit you made a mistake. It builds character.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:40 pmWorefus is misrepresenting the facts when he says that it is “widely believed that Hitler exploded several atomic devices.â€
Comment by Exley — September 1, 2006 @ 4:31 pm
More people than that believe it and I read about Hitler exploding atomic devices long before the book you are referring to came out. But thanks for posting that. You just reinforced the theory.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:41 pm#99 Exley
Nice try, Worefus, but there was no Selbstschutz organizations within the United States. They existed in Central and Eastern Europe…
As Worfeus said, in WWII there were fifth columns in Poland. They were also in Holland. If you think that “Islamo-fascists” (This is ridiculous. It’s an imaginary group.) have fifth columns in the U.S. then you don’t understand the meaning of it. There would have to be an invading army of these “Islamo-fascists” being joined by American sympathizers who would then be considered “fifth columnists”.
Just keep scouting the horizon for that Islamo-fascist army.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:43 pmAnother deception by Worefus. Very clearly in my first posting on this topic, I am addressing the United States’ war against terrorism and the threat posed by Islamist savages to the United States. I even quote the president, ““We’re now approaching the fifth anniversary of the day this war reached our shores.â€
So, again, Worefus, I must ask, when you implied that Selbstschutz was active in the United States, were you being dishonest or were you just ignorant?
If it was just ignorance. don’t be ashamed to admit you made a mistake. It builds character.
Comment by Excrement— September 1, 2006 @ 4:40 pm
Bull.
If you had meant ONLY in the US you should have said it. And if you did say ONLY in the US than you would have shown a great ignorance of the fact that the US is not the ONLY target of terrorism, and Al Quaida can clearly have a Fifth Column operating in OThER places besides here.
Face it asshole.
You said Hitler didn’t have a 5th Column. You were WRONG.
He did.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:43 pmIt just goes to show why its so easy for them to make crap up like the President comparing the Terrorists to the Third Reich and Rumsfeld comparing us to Facists.
Al Quaida has no uniforms. No banner. No Navy. No Air Force. No Tanks. No firing line.
And Al Quaida’s not a country.
As for us being Facists, well thats so stupid a comparison as to be laughable. We’d have to HAVE POWER to be Facisists. We are not the ones in power. Bush is.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:46 pm#110
As for us being Facists, well thats so stupid a comparison as to be laughable. We’d have to HAVE POWER to be Facisists. We are not the ones in power. Bush is.
On top of that, this whole made-up “Islamo-fascist” thing is straight from the Nazi playbook. The Nazis targeted Jews and communists and blamed them for anything they could possibly think of. Nazi-wannabe Rove is going with the same strategy, but it was too hard to pick one real group of people to blame everything on and convince Americans that it was a threat to the world. So, he came up with this “Islamo-fascist” nonsense. And it literally is nonsense. It’s a non-entity and the name doesn’t even make sense. The only fascists involved here are the ones operating out of the White House. Projecting, as usual.
September 1st, 2006 at 4:56 pmAbsolutely on the money.
Thats right IMPEACH THE CHIMPANZEE.
And if Bush’s comparison is supposed to be geared towards the rise in power of the Facists in Italy, before they ruled, then what Excrement forgets is that the Facists were a strong blackshirt force in Italy, who were aided by the Military and the Police and rose through violence, murder and oppression.
To compare the peace movement in the US to this is the stupidest thing I’ve ever heard.
September 1st, 2006 at 5:01 pm#26, dlet,
China is not talking about annihilating Taiwan and Tibet. They consider those nations as part of sovereign China, so they aren’t interested in firing nuclear weapons at them.
September 1st, 2006 at 5:32 pm“technology these Islamist terrorist groups have.”
WHat? An ak-47, Bombs strapped to their chest, oooooooo, God!!! How will we ever win agianst these powerful people.
“nihilist ideologies are directly comparable.”
Did you say Islamists are nihilist……………………Here’s some info on nihilism. I did not know the belief in nothing coincided with the belief in Allah. You’re funny.
September 1st, 2006 at 7:01 pm“technology these Islamist terrorist groups have.â€
They took over planes with boxcutters, now to be fair they were 20th century boxcutters, arguably far advanced over 13th century boxcutters, but…
September 1st, 2006 at 7:03 pmHere’s a history question for all you history-loving Republicans (who seem to have no knowledge of the history of the 1980’s and how the US helped arm Saddam Hussein and supported murdering butchers throughout South and Central America - but I digress):
How many people served in the German military during WWII? Any one?
Try 18-effin’-MILLION. Got that? 18,000,000. Not all at one time, mind you - but 18,000,000 soldiers over the span of roughly 6 years.
So, tell me that al Qaeda and their allies pose just as much of a threat as Nazi Germany … go ahead.
Next question: How many people DIED in WWII? Again, any one? Try 62 MILLION friggin’ souls killed - about 50 million on the allied side (17 million military, 33 million civilians) and about 12 million on the Axis side (8 million military, 4 million civilians).
Next question: How many people did Hitler murder during the Holocaust? You might be familiar with these numbers - about 6 million Jews and at least 3 million other “undesirables.” That’s 9 million people, at a minimum, slaughtered by that sonofabitch. So, do the math - that’s the equivalent of A 9/11 PER DAY, EVERY SINGLE DAY, FOR SIX AND A HALF YEARS.
So, before you profane the memory of my late father (a WWII combat veteran) again, LEARN SOME FREAKIN’ HISTORY YOURSELVES.
(Gee, I can’t wait for MA’s response to this one …)
September 1st, 2006 at 10:36 pmcoachjason
It should not be for the child to deal with a bully. He should go to those with authority and they should handle him. To teach your kid to try and beat the crap out of anyone who even looks at him funny is to support both taking a violent solution to every problem, and vigilantes. If the situation has gotten to the point where physical violence is required then frankly the teachers, the parents and maybe even the police need to be called in.
That said I had to deal with a few bullies too. Generally my approach was to laugh at them, and get everyone else laughing at them. Throw a fist at me and I generally figured out how to make the guy look stupid. Not very many people bullied me growing up because of that. I am also the only one of my friends never to have been knifed in a fight.
If your only solution to everything is to resort to violence it is quite clear that you are both stupid, and lacking in a sense of humour. Thus far this has been the view the rest of the world has had of America, that you are a primarily thick nation that seems only capable of handling its problems by breaking things.
Iraq could have been handled very easily by letting the UN do its work, but instead America worked specifically for war, war and nothing but war. Your story of your eight months in Iraq, frankly sounds like utter bullshit BTW, it lacks common sense. Even if you like the soldiers, you aren’t going to demonstrate it too publically because frankly you don’t want the insurgents targetting your family.
September 2nd, 2006 at 8:58 amYou’ve got to love the incredibly ill informed hatefilled ugly people that turn up for topics like this one.
Typically, they know next to nothing about Islam or probably even their own religion. They’re probably unaware, for example, that it is the fastest growing religion in the world. billions of Muslims who were not forced into it. The vast majority weren’t threatened or forced into being Islamic. All over the entire globe. The vast majority of the billions of Muslims are not terrorists.
Don’t let that stop the stupid bigotted idiots though. Here’s a question, why is it these folks are probably the same ones who will cry “antisemite!” at even the remotest criticism of anything related to Israel/Zionism heck even Judaism, but they won’t say one word about the demonising of billions of innocent people?!
September 2nd, 2006 at 11:12 amGBTSA - Amen.
September 2nd, 2006 at 11:16 amMy best friend at work is a Pakistani DBA, the most soft spoken, peace loving, devout worshipper of his faith I have ever known.
Makes most Christians look like complete hypocrites.
He puts into practice the teachings of the Quran in everything he does, 24X7X365.
His two boys are a handful, but the patience he shows in parenting again display the depth of his practice.
For those who spew hate toward members of a religious faith, shame on you.
Your fear speaks volumes!
I think they are really emphasizing the “fascist” part of Isamofascist as a diversion from accusations that THEY are the fascists. It’s easily countered though. Whenever “Islamofascism” is trotted out, just remind them of the NSA spying, the Patriot Act, Terror Watch lists, etc etc, then point out that these are all police state tactics. Then remind them about the incestuous relationship between corporate power and government power in this country, which is the main hallmoark of fascism.
The more they bleat on about fascism, the more opportunity there is to educate people about what fascism really is, and how close we are coming to it.
September 2nd, 2006 at 12:38 pmSo, to sum up, Worefus was either being dishonest or simply did not know what he was talking about when he falsely claimed: (1) that Selbstschutz fifth column organizations were active the United States in World War II and (2) “widely believed that Hitler exploded several atomic devices.â€
On behalf of the entire thread, Worefus, we accept your apology for your misrepresentation of the facts. Just be more careful next time.
September 2nd, 2006 at 1:17 pmBush does not even have mush for brains > his cranium is filled with smelly swamp gas > lol.
September 2nd, 2006 at 1:26 pmExley
America had its own Nazi party at the time. I have yet to hear of an American arm of Hezbollah or Hamas however.
September 2nd, 2006 at 2:34 pmOkay, Exley, et al., how about it … how do you equate the threat of Nazism with the threat of extremist Islamism? Let’s talk about specifics … I gave you some specific numbers about the Nazis and WWII (the number of people who served in the German military, the number of Allied, Axis and civilian casualties, the number of people slaughtered in the Holocaust). Tell us, o wise one, how the numbers of Islamic extremists compare? (It’s quite easy, really. The State Department publishes statistics on all known extremist/terrorist organizations. You can look it up yourself.) How many lives have the Islamic extremists cost - in total, over the last 30 to 40 years? What is the actual military capability of all of the Islamic extremists everywhere in the world, and how does that compare to Nazi Germany and Japan under Tojo?
The point is, of course Islamic extremism is a threat. As long as there are Islamic extremists, there will be suicide bombers, car bombs, etc., and there is no doubt that they will try to cause greater and greater destruction, as we learned on 9/11. But you can’t simply draw the comparison between al Qaeda and Nazi Germany without showing how al Qaeda could EVER cause the kind of death and destruction as the Nazi war machine. So far, all you, Bush and Rumsfeld have done is cite the words of a handful of al Qaeda and other extremist leaders, and point to 9/11. That’s a far cry from showing that Islamic extremism poses anywhere near the threat of Hitler, Mussolini and Tojo (let alone Kruschev, Mao, and the rest of our Cold War enemies).
By exaggerating the threat of Islamic extremism (in my view, in bad faith - at least on the part of the Bush administration) you not only demean the heroism of our WWII vets, the severity of the Nazi and Cold War communist threat, the cruelty and inhumanity of the Holocaust, and so on … you encourage Americans to exercise extraordinarily bad judgment today. Thanks to Bush and the fearmongers, Americans today are willing to live with the PATRIOT Act, the NSA warrantless wiretapping program, the increasing erosion of civil liberties … all for what? So that someday the government may be able to thwart a terrorist threat like 9/11? And, in the meantime, we’re all supposed to give up the essential liberties that are our birthright?
Conservatives love to tell us that “freedom isn’t free.” And you know what? They’re right. Freedom involves risk. Under our Constitution, guilty people sometimes go free. People are free to speak harmful words, advocate bad or harmful ideas. But we’re all willing to accept that risk because the framers of the constitution already struck the appropriate balance between security and liberty. Conservatives seem to think that only men and women in uniform should bear the risks of freedom, but that’s nonsense. We ALL have to bear those risks … and we’re all suppose to believe that it’s worth that risk to live in a free society. Why should our soldiers and marines sacrifice their lives in battle so that we can give up our freedoms at home?
And while we’re at it, Exley, riddle me this: Why should Iraqis have to die by the tens of thousands - perhaps 100’s of thousands - to achieve democracy and essential liberty if we are so willing to give it up at home?
September 2nd, 2006 at 2:51 pmIt’s funny how our conservative friends become mute once you challenge them with facts …
September 2nd, 2006 at 7:27 pmThis is all very sick…twisted is the Neocon philosophy, you can find it. It’s very sick. If there is no enemy create one. Etc. etc. It was all made by extremely paranoid old people back in the 50’s which saw the coming changes in culture a fright, and a terror which needs a greater paranoid, stick-in-the-mud old fart to create a oppressive and mal-adjusted, fascist, control-freak, power-freak, war-freak outlook on the world.
September 2nd, 2006 at 11:23 pm#120 Bruce, Your way of handling bullies is fine. Maybe getting laughed at is okay with you. Maybe inviting other bullies to pick on you too is what you enjoy. I’m not here to debate right or wrong when it comes to bullies. I am simply saying that you and those like you believe too much of what the Al Franken types are telling you. I know I can’t change your mind… I’m not trying. I was invited to give a spirited debate on my feelings by PLC. I’ve tried to do so without name calling, but apparently that’s impossible for several of the liberals. Many, including you, took the cowards way out by questioning my service. I personally didn’t even want to use my service as a tool for my arguements. I thought that a thought-provoking alternative might lead to some knowledge on both our parts. If the best you guys can do is tell me I have blood on my hands (which I have to live with) then I’m absolutely right when I call you cowards. I am not a Neocon. I am a Christian conservative. (I’m sure that will get me called a few more names). But I’m also a realist. I’ve been there, and judging by what most of you say, you have not. That does not make me an expert, like flying in a plane does not make me a pilot. But just because you guys have read a few liberal blogs and a couple articles in Time magazine, makes you no expert either. One of you said that all your service buddies are democrats working on the campaign of other democrats. Good for you. I, unlike many of you, do not desire a one party rule in this country. I am man enough to show my disdain for my own party when I need to. I doubt I’d ever see the same from MOST of you. I never said that I agreed with our invasion of Iraq int he first place, I’m just against a “cut-and-run” exit strategy. If you want to debate that… I’d be more than happy!
September 3rd, 2006 at 9:05 amHey, coachjason, I confess I have not read all your comments in this thread, but I did read your last (No. 130). Let me tell you this: I am as liberal as they come, and I adamantly opposed the war in Iraq from its inception. But, I do not blame any man or woman who served in the armed forces for the (in my view) bad decisions made by our political leaders. We place a civilian - the president - at the top of the military hierarchy for a reason: so that he or she can be held accountable to the people for the mistakes made in that role. By the very same token, the men and women in the militar