Under Fire, ABC Yanks Official Blog of 9/11 Docudrama
Under Fire, ABC Yanks Official Blog of 9/11 Docudrama
On September 10 and 11, ABC is planning to air a “docudrama” called “Path to 9/11,” billed as “an objective telling of the events of 9/11.” In fact, the film was written by an unabashed conservative who twists the facts to blame President Clinton.
The show’s official blog attracted many comments from the public criticizing the film for its inaccuracies. In response, writer Cyrus Nowrasteh and director David Cunningham posted a number of strikingly defensive blog posts. Some excerpts:
Clarification
1) This is not a documentary…
2) This is not a right wing agenda movie…By the way, we are also being accused of being a left wing movie that bashes Bush.
-D. Cunningham
Wed, Aug 30, 2006 22:01Further clarafication
This movie is well-supported and well-documented. But everyone should be aware, and we say so upfront in a long legend — “The following dramatization…has composite and representative characters and incidents, and time compressions have been used for dramatic purposes.”
…Whoever wants to write and talk about this movie is free to do so, and we’ve been very open in talking to them. We can’t control who writes what…
–Cyrus Nowrasteh
Fri, Sep 1, 2006 16:59Even Further Clarification
…The redundant statement about Clinton and the emphasis to protect his legacy instead of trying to learn from the failures of BOTH administrations smells of “agenda”.
…Watch the movie! Then let’s talk. If you haven’t seen the movie with your very own eyes – don’t castigate the movie out of ignorance.
-David Cunningham
Sat, Sep 2, 2006 16:48
Apparently, ABC is no longer interested in hosting a discussion about Path to 9/11. On Sunday, without announcement or explanation, ABC took the blog down. (The URL now redirects to the show’s homepage.) We’ve saved a copy of the full contents HERE.
UPDATE: Without explaination, ABC brought the blog back online sometime Tuesday.
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HA! Glad to see that people aren’t taking this smear job lying down. Keep up the pressure, gang!
September 4th, 2006 at 9:57 amAmerica’s Least Wanted
It’s encouraging to see that people are seeing past the propagandist’ “docudrama.” ABC can’t take the heat, so they close down the blog – so typical isn’t it? They can all dish it out, but they sure as hell can’t take it.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:00 amContemporary Republican Logic 101.
When Bill Clinton was in office for one month the World Trade Center was attacked by terrorists. Shame on Bill Clinton for allowing a terrorist attack on HIS watch.
Nine months into the George W. Bush presidency there was the 9/11 attacks. Shame on Bill Clinton for allowing the attacks to be planned on HIS watch.
See how they do it!
-GSD
Boycott ABC.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:01 amI bet ABC is now wishing that they could yank this movie too. Anyone who wants to preserve this for posterity had better do it tonite, I doubt it will ever be seen anywhere else ever again. And rightly so.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:05 amAt least the dumb crowd will have something to watch.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:05 amBravo ABC! It’s time that our programming reflects some modicum of truth.
The tragedy of 9/11 is something to be handled delicately, with respect, and documentation which has been thoroughly vetted for Truth….not political or sensational in any way. I commend Spike Lee for bringing the truth about perhaps THE worst tragedy of this government to care for it’s citizens – KATRINA – which is still an “ongoing tragedy” of outrageous proportions. This is the kind of docudrama people need to see – what really transpired and continues to transpire….not something “puffed up” to paint a political picture one way or another. We want the facts….not more propaganda!
September 4th, 2006 at 10:07 amThe GOP is hoping for a tragic event prior to the mid-term elections. Its a shame, but it is the truth.
My bet is that if one does not occur, they will manufacture one.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:11 amIf I rermenber correctly wasn’t ABC the one bought up by the CIA?
[CIA Director] Casey was one of the founders of Cap Cities. Cap Cities bought ABC.
Well well, that is one ‘BUSH’ movie that I will not be watching, it is of course crap because this docucrap only reinforces the 9/11 report that the Bush cabal had 47 pages removed.
ERGO this docudrama reinforces a half truth..and in no way can be seen as ‘accurate’ because the people do not have an accurate 9/11 report.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:12 amThe GOP is hoping for a tragic event prior to the mid-term elections. Its a shame, but it is the truth.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:13 am==
The tragic event occupies the White House
hahahahahaaaaaaa. Remove the Blog they aren’t buying it!!
September 4th, 2006 at 10:14 amThe damn sheeple are walking on two legs!!
… We can’t control who writes what…
But we would if we could.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:15 amSpeaking of walking on two legs doesn’t Orwells bookAnimal Farm make alot more sense now when you think of the pigs as greedy capitalist GOP hypocriites?
==
We can’t control who writes what…
But we would if we could.
Comment by George
September 4th, 2006 at 10:17 am==
Only in a ‘free speech’ zone George..
ABC= Almight Bush Cronies
September 4th, 2006 at 10:19 amRebel With A Cause sez:
It’s already in the works, Rebel. Expect another massive “terrorist incident”, on the scale of 9/11, on either American, Canadian, or British soil, sometime between now and November.
Terrorist “threats” that are “successfully averted” by the government are no longer keeping us docile…the administration knows they have to up the ante to keep us under control, and they have absolutely no compunction about doing so.
When it does happen, do not succumb to the hysteria. Start asking questions immediately…you’ll find that this latest “terorist incident” will be as ersatz as 9/11 and every “terrorist threat”that has followed.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:20 amstrong>New fall films bring Iraq war to home to U.S
By Bob Tourtellotte
LOS ANGELES (Reuters) – It took years for the Vietnam war to “come home” to U.S. moviegoers, but a series of fall films will soon test the appetite for cinematic tales about U.S. politics and the human toll of the war in Iraq.
Whether the movies, which include documentary “The Ground Truth” and feature film “Home of the Brave” from Oscar-winner Irwin Winkler, will challenge White House policies or impact audiences is open for debate.
But audiences will find it hard, if not impossible, to watch the movies without considering current events and the Iraq war, and that is a marked change from previous eras.
“It used to be that you digested events before you had to comment on them, and I don’t think that’s true anymore,” said Richard Schickel, a veteran critic for Time magazine. “Now, people have instant opinions, and they get them out there.”
September 4th, 2006 at 10:24 amAmericablog will be campaigning against ABC all this week. Come along!
September 4th, 2006 at 10:27 amTRIPMASTER
I am with you all the way. A manufactured terrist event will occur. It may, or may not, cause death and injury, but it will be a spectacle.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:33 am“a dogged crew of investigators and operatives who knew in 1993, when the World Trade Center was bombed by Islamic terrorists, that they would be back to finish the job”
DR. RICE: Steve, I don’t think anybody could have predicted that these people would take an airplane and slam it into the World Trade Center, take another one and slam it into the Pentagon; that they would try to use an airplane as a missile, a hijacked airplane as a missile.
Nice job, Judd. ABC needs to air another ‘docudrama’ based on the facts.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:36 amlet’s keep it up, maybe they will resist showing the garbage at all
September 4th, 2006 at 10:37 amoh wait, it’s abc, garbage in, garbage out
For a different take on how the American national security establishment across both the Clinton and Bush administrations suffered a “failure of imagination” prior to 9/11, see:
“Cognitive Dissonance, Terrorism and 9/11.”
September 4th, 2006 at 10:47 amJudd – You are TOOOO precious! Bright boy that you are, I’m certain you have a palatable explanation why the “fact-based” documentaries of Michael Moore are cinemagraphically legitimate.
You and yours are “offended” by a made- for-TV movie written by (gasp!!!!!) an unabashed right-winger. And the NERVE of the writer and director to post opinions refuting “progressive keyboard berets”!?! Your dutiful comrades would be so much happier if only prog views were littering the landscape. You can’t have it both ways – even as leftist elites throw their predictable tantrums.
A simple suggestion conservative citizens (of no particular prominence) employed – Watch it if you want to refute it OR don’t watch it if your panties a sure to become twisted. (I hear I missed some really great film footage in foregoing “Fahrenheit 9/11″, “Bowling for Columbine”, and “An Inconvenient Truth” – I think I was busy changing the lining of Mini Aphrodites canaries’ cage…..)
September 4th, 2006 at 10:48 amI don’t know how to get ABC to pull the plug. If it runs however I propose a three part response:
1. Everybody watches football, like it or not. Maybe we organize football watching orgies (sex optional)
2. Everybody goes on-line and comtributes to one or more democratic candidates for the house or senate.
3. Within 2 hours of the conclusion of the docu-drama, ebveryone sends an email to ABC saying “Bull-shit!”
#2 is the most important.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:51 amNaw, I think, Bush would have to be a complete nitwit to allow another attack. That would weaken his only strong point of National Security, another attack here would only go to knock the straw man on National Security down and make him seem even weaker on securiy
I think it, another attack, would backfire, and this is why we are seeing so many crummy films.
So, Bush can either come clean and start acting like the president of ALL the people and make things right, or he can continue on his luciferian crusade and destroy the Bush families legacy for once and for all, mostly because he listened to Rove and the AEI panel of inane advisers, Parades and flowers, people cheering bush in a ticker tape parade, the troops smiling, the people in love with george..to bad it George doesn’t know a pipe dream from reality.
Rove, Bushes brain, Ironically, may be the downfall of the Bush.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:51 amBoycott ABC. Boycott their advertisers. Write their advertisers to complain. ABC is part of the cabal of Corporate Fascists engaged in Psy Ops.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:52 amWhen Bill Clinton was in office for one month the World Trade Center was attacked by terrorists. Shame on Bill Clinton for allowing a terrorist attack on HIS watch.
Nine months into the George W. Bush presidency there was the 9/11 attacks. Shame on Bill Clinton for allowing the attacks to be planned on HIS watch.
==
Then you must also whine and complain that George only had nine months in office, and a one month vacation, and that it’s hard work, and that you didn’t see that PDB about the Planes, or didn’t know the lights were flashing red, and you also have to ignore the Bojinka plot..and say “It was a lack of imagination”
Funny thing this GOP imagination, they imagine all kinds of smear campaigns, propaganda, and outright lies but can’t Imagine a plane into a building even when they damn well knew of Bojinka??
September 4th, 2006 at 10:58 amMighty Aphrodite wrote:
If a liberal told you gravity worked you’d fall on your face trying to prove them wrong. Everybody on the planet needs to see “An Inconvenient Truth”. That you’re terrified of it speaks volumes.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:06 amWhy don’t we be constructive, and suggest ABC air a ‘docudrama’about the Millennium Bombing–you know, the one that Richard Clarke and his sidekick Bill Clinton foiled? It has the advantage of a happy ending, after all.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:08 amAhh… the Tale of Mighty Aphrodite
September 4th, 2006 at 11:11 amWho on her way to fight the big bad terrorists wound up at Think Progress fighting liberals! Too funny!
Mr Bush you have it within your powers to do the right thing by acting like the President and lead us thru actions and not thru distorted Rovian logic and nonstop idiotic smear campaigns. The days of empire building and quixotic crusades to Jerusalem are over Mr. Bush.
The ‘endtime’ was the creation of the State of Israel, Nationalism yields to Internationalism and Universalism is now brought into view will you cower from the future and continue the vicious historic cycle of the past, or will you Mr Bush embrace the future of mankind and work towards a Universal good?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:12 amABC has turned very creepy since Ted Koppel left > they are worse than CNN now in spewing Bush Regime propaganda > nobody should watch that stupid docudrama blaming Clinton for 9/11, but why is Bill himself silent about it?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:13 amDidn’t CBS yank the Reagan Biopic when enough Conservatives complained? Hint, hint… :)
September 4th, 2006 at 11:13 amThe Chicago Tribune is reporting that the #2 man has been with AlQaeda for only three years (mighty quick rise to #2) since leaving Saddam’s military.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:14 amAlso, Iraqi officials report that he had been arrested several weeks ago.
And this is in the news today because…?
I think I was busy changing the lining of Mini Aphrodites canaries’ cage…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite
You really ought to let the little darling do that itself…it might grow up better than you…
September 4th, 2006 at 11:14 am(I hear I missed some really great film footage in foregoing “Fahrenheit 9/11″, “Bowling for Columbineâ€, and “An Inconvenient Truth†– I think I was busy changing the lining of Mini Aphrodites canaries’ cage…..)
MA fails to recognize the fact that Nationalism was the downfall of Hitler and his International crusade.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:14 amOops, sorry OT
September 4th, 2006 at 11:14 am#34 should have been on another thread.
Just as MA’s Nationalism will be the downfall of Bush.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:15 am==
(I hear I missed some really great film footage in foregoing “Fahrenheit 9/11″, “Bowling for Columbineâ€, and “An Inconvenient Truth†– I think I was busy changing the lining of Mini Aphrodites canaries’ cage…..)
==
A perverted canarie, so what do you line this cage with playgirl magazines?
Maybe they can do a cocumentary about how the first WTC bombers were aprehended and jailed?
Or about the Oklahoma City bombers were aprehended, jailed, and executed?
Or how the Unabomer was captured and jailed for life.
Or how the Millenium Plot was foiled.
Or how millions of Bosnians can now vote and are free to persue their “dreams”.
Naw, let’s not do that.
-GSD
September 4th, 2006 at 11:15 amExpect another massive “terrorist incidentâ€, on the scale of 9/11, on either American, Canadian, or British soil, sometime between now and November.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — September 4, 2006 @ 10:20 am
Actually, I think another event would work against them – it would mean that they aren’t protecting us. That they aren’t securing us, or being vigilant enough. Another event will doom them.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:16 amI saw Fahrenheit 9/11, mighty mouse. Care to point out something in it that wasn’t factual?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:22 amI wrote to both ABC national and my local station on Friday. Tommorrow I’ll do it again. If you write to your local ABC station let them now you’ll be contacting local advertisers to suggest better places for them to advertise, that really seems to get their panties in a bunch.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:24 am#27 – “Everybody on the planet needs to see “An Inconvenient Truthâ€. That you’re terrified of it speaks volumes. ” Comment by Mark Wise
******Dear Mark – Thank you for your input. Apparently you’re not bright enough to discern the difference between “terrified” and “choice”. I know this may surprise you, but I am not interested in giving $$$$ to Michael Moore, Oliver Stone, Dick Wolf, Martin Sheen, Babs Streisand, etc. So no, I don’t NEED to see “Roaring” Al Gore’s latest lecture. Too bad the late, great dinosaurs didn’t have an enviro-wack to stave off the Ice Age….
Why are Progs so AFRAID of a perspective different from ther own – that doesn’t sound TOOOOO “open-minded” to me?
Happy Comrades Day…..
September 4th, 2006 at 11:24 amYou really ought to let the little darling do that itself…it might grow up better than you…
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 11:14 am
Thanks for, in a single-sentance, explaining what is wrong with the youngest generation today. They’ve been mommied to laziness by the neo-conservatives who feel guilty for working too much to pay for their Mercedes lease, McMansion, and botox injections, and so they don’t parent or discipline their kids.
I have one in one of my classes who is a good kid, but obviously has been taught nothing about the consequences of his actions. He acts like a five year old and is on the verge of learning the hard way, because of his parent’s refusal to teach him gradually through tough love, what happens when you fail your classes and then can’t go to college. I don’t blame him, but I can’t pass someone who won’t do his work.
His parents are typical conservatives.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:25 amAnother 9/11 type event before November would have to be staged by the Bush Regime > NO real terrorists involved > more Americans will be less inclined to believe Dubya, but he will probably just declare martial law and not care what we all think or believe?!
September 4th, 2006 at 11:25 amAny challenge to the official hogwash of what happened on 9/11 has been totally blacked out by the corporate media. The imperative questions that have been raised by scholars, scientists and other highly respsectable researchers has been taboo all this time. This is a step forward, but does not address the mountain of evidence that refutes the fairy tale the world has been told about 9/11. Everyone raising the questions has been labeled a conspiracy theorist, when the only utterly ridiculous conspiracy theory is the one about 19 kids pulling off the most efficient attack on the US in history.
Please read this for background…..then make up your own mind:
CLICK HERE
http://tvnewslies.org/html/9_11_-_us_complicity__implausi.html
September 4th, 2006 at 11:28 amMighty would be of better service as a target of a suicide bomber. Otherwise I think she’s just a shill. Is that Harvey Kiketel in that promo pic?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:29 amI think I was busy changing the lining of Mini Aphrodites canaries’ cage…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite
it keeps it’s children in canary cages???!!!
hey! the print in this box is HUGE! yay!
September 4th, 2006 at 11:30 ami’ve been away for a while… THANKS JUDD!
Interesting and a success for part of the Blogosphere. I don’t know how many Bloggers actually took the challenge, but I wrote one on the above story that was even getting good international traffic. Thanks to Think Progress and RAW Story alerting us this was going to happen, I’m sure there were many of us who took them to task – and made it harder than ever to justify such obvious propaganda and subterfuge!
I’d say this is a victory for the Good Guys! One down and how many more to go?
JAC
September 4th, 2006 at 11:36 amYou break like a little girl, mighty. Go home now.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:37 amWhy can’t the people in this country tell the truth anymore. Do we send our kids to college to learn to lie. Somebody needs their ass smacked!!
September 4th, 2006 at 11:39 amUh-oh, Santo is back…
Take a vacation Santo.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:41 amSael > Bush promotes lying, so kids are learning that lying is acceptable and cool > liars make my skin crawl, but GOP seems to thrive on it?!
September 4th, 2006 at 11:42 amlets see who was in the white house when the planes hit the world trade center in nyc, the pentagon and that field in pa.? oh that’s right it was bush and his republican posse….so they were supposed to be responsible for the safety and security of the nation at that very moment and had been on the job for about nine months…..gee i guess these were failures that happened on their watch huh?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:43 amI will boycott ABC for awhile too.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:43 amAhh, the sanctity of the Documentary as an established accurate account has been maintained. Calling this a documentary would be like calling Rush Limbaugh America’s Anchor. Interesting that an entertainment division would even attempt to call something accurate without expecting any legitimate scrutiny. Judd get out an enjoy the day it’s beautiful.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:44 amCall Rush Limbaugh’s advertisers and demand they get Bush and Cheney to resign and that you will not buy from them until Bush and Cheney resign leaving Dennis Hastert to serve as pResident for the next two years.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:44 amDoes ABC have any plans to AIR Michael Moore’s Farenheit 911 before the elections?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:46 amI think not.
If they did – I could stomach this – since they aren’t it smacks of politics.
This should not air to blame President Clinton when the moron who created it is an abomination to this country.President Bush had this in mind before he became President and do not be suprised if the is another tradjady they did the first and will have no compunction in creating a second before the election to try and scare the hell out of this country.I hope this country is not dunb enough . It is time to get these immorral low life poor people hating pigs out of office and put them in jail. Just watch first war with Iran and then marshall law NO ELECTIONS DO N OT LET THIS HAPPEN.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:46 amAnyone have a link where we can find the sponsors? That’s who we need to contact, not just the ABC brass.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:48 amSpeaking of agenda, any mentions at all about PNAC? Now there’s an agenda..
September 4th, 2006 at 11:53 amSeems to me that former President Clinton should be mad that ABC is claiming he is responsible for 9/11, when Bush Boy is solely responsible, so why does Bill remain silent on this docudrama? Is it because Clinton has sold-out to the Bush Regime and even has agreed to be slimed too?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:54 amThanks for, in a single-sentance, explaining what is wrong with the youngest generation today.
Comment by unbelievable
I can just see the kid in your story, speaking in a rehab family session — Mom & Dad, why didn’t you just make me act right?
it keeps it’s children in canary cages???!!!
Comment by katy
Now that’s funny!!
September 4th, 2006 at 11:55 amI for one will not be watching this GOP crap…I’m so tired of them using 9/11 for their political purposes and then blaming Clinton for it…
Shame on you ABC…Shame on you…
September 4th, 2006 at 11:56 amAnyone have a link where we can find the sponsors? That’s who we need to contact, not just the ABC brass.
Comment by red state liberal
I would bet John Aravosis at AmericaBlog has a list. That would be the way to go — contact the sponsors.
Maybe if we keep up the pressure, ABC will drop this thing.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:58 am[...] Further clarafication http://thinkprogress.org/2006/09/04/path-blog-yanked/#comments [...]
September 4th, 2006 at 11:59 amMA’s children are canary birds > he is a drag queen guy who calls his pets his children > lol. Have you ever seen the film the “Bird Cage” about 2 gay guys living in Florida? MA is a very confused “Log Cabin” Republican!
September 4th, 2006 at 12:00 pmI can just see the kid in your story, speaking in a rehab family session — Mom & Dad, why didn’t you just make me act right?
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 11:55 am
His reality is that he will probably have to go to community college and work his way through the system. Or get a job, and be fired. Sad for him. I feel for him. But he doesn’t take me seriously when I tell him that college is not the same as high school and that they don’t call your parents in for a meeting – they kick you out. And keep your money.
MA’s kids will probably be the next ones on trial for some heinous rampage that starts with offing their parents… Well, if canaries can do that (cause I’m sure MA’s ‘children’ are actually pets).
September 4th, 2006 at 12:01 pmThis administration’s every success can only be credited to Pres Bush’s vision, leadership and clear command.
This administration’s s every disastrous misstep can only be pinned on… just about anyone else -preferably Bill Clinton.
That is, in a nutshell, the Republican Party’s new accountability and personal responsibility.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:05 pmIf Clinton (or Gore or Kerry) had failed to act on a Presidential Daily Briefing, dated August 6, 2001, that said that bin Laden was determined to strike in the U.S., the mainstream media would have hung it around his neck, as well they should have.
With Little Bush, it has basically been ignored and forgotten.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:05 pmWatch it if you want to refute it OR don’t watch it if your panties a sure to become twisted.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — September 4, 2006 @ 10:48 am
Obvious reply: Post comments in a liberal blog if you want to refute their points, OR don’t if you will get your panties in a twist.
When are we going to see a thoughtful reply/refutation from MA, instead of badly wirtten condescension and half-witted attempts at sarcasm?
If she at least wrote in proper English…
September 4th, 2006 at 12:06 pmJudd, did you preserve the comments on each of those posts, as well? They were hilarious and spot-on!
Oh, and Mightly Aph should use the WSJ for her birdcage liner.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:08 pmIf anyone’s interested you can still go to abc.com and leave a “complaint” under “primetime other”.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:09 pmWhy can’t they yank the movie. CBS yanked the movie about Ron Reagan.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:10 pmIt was on Bush’s watch…almost a year in…they didn’t take Osama seriously…
Yes Clinton didn’t get Bin Laden …but then after 5 years neither has Bush.
The same way I lost all respect for Oliver Stone, I just lost all respect for Harvey Keittel. Hope the paycheck was worth defending treason against his country. Actors should really take the time to read the official, Bush-backer orchestrated 9-11 Commission Report, then read Dr Griffin’s “Omissions & Distortions” before signing up for this kind of propaganda crap.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:12 pmDrop your mask stupid girl!
Comment by ABOUT TIME — September 4, 2006 @ 12:03 pm
Funny how you always out yourself by protesting too much… Yeah, that makes me stupid. LOL
September 4th, 2006 at 12:16 pmBoring holiday today in Georgia > not much to do since rain is expected at any time > can Bush at least for one day shut his vile stupid yapper?
September 4th, 2006 at 12:17 pmI quit watching ABC, and will not watch it again until they throw that right wing crazy John Stossel off the air. It doesn’t surprise me they are airing this piece of right wing propaganda, they are trying to mimic Fox. Hello ABC, you’ll never outfox FOX.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:21 pmhaha! If only Dems had the kind of civility, and true caring nature, of shining (and published) Republican examples like:
Ann “Liberals are Treasonous” Coulter
Michelle “Liberals are Unhinged” Malkin
Michael “Liberalism is a Mental Disorder” Savage
Sean “Liberals Are Evil” Hannity
Ben “Liberalism is Corrupting Our Bright Future” Shapiro
Bernie “Liberals are Screwing Up America” Goldberg
How dare uncouth Dems take insulting potshots at such caring conservative examples such as you, in the comments section of a blog, Mighty.
The could at least have the decency to get a book deal, a TV show, and do rounds on the pundit circuit before insulting you. Won’t those liberals ever learn?
September 4th, 2006 at 12:21 pmThe next time, and there will be many next times, a desperately deluded Bush supporting Republican history revisionist tries to inaccurately blame Clinton for 9/11, please post the following:
GOP CONGRESS BLOCKED CLINTON PUSH FOR ANTI-TERROR LEGISLATION
Note the date of the CNN article……….
by John in DC – 9/04/2006 11:10:00 AM
CNN, July 30, 1996 http://www.cnn.com/US/9607/30/clinton.terrorism/
Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, emerged from the meeting and said, “These are very controversial provisions that the [Clinton] White House wants. Some they’re not going to get.” ….[Hatch] also said he had some problems with the president’s proposals to expand wiretapping.
So Bill Clinton, rather than just breaking the law, decided to go to the Republican congress in 1996 and ask them for increased authority to do more eavesdropping in order to stop the terrorists – stop September 11. Senior Republican Senator Orrin Hatch, one of the GOP’s top picks for the Supreme Court and a GOP committee chair, objected.
The Republicans stopped President Clinton from getting all the tools he needed to stop the next September 11 – well, no, actually they opposed giving President Clinton all the tools he needed to stop the actual September 11. Could September 11 have been stopped if the GOP had given President Clinton the tools he requested to stop Osama and Mohammad Atta from killing 3,000 people in New York, Pennsylvania and Washington?
Maybe we need to ask the Republicans up for re-election why they wanted to appease the terrorists?
President Clinton urged Congress Tuesday to act swiftly in developing anti-terrorism legislation before its August recess.
“We need to keep this country together right now. We need to focus on this terrorism issue,” Clinton said during a White House news conference.
But while the president pushed for quick legislation, Republican lawmakers hardened their stance against some of the proposed anti-terrorism measures.
There’s even an audio clip of President Clinton practically begging the Republicans to give him the tools he needed to stop Osama and the terrorists. Trent Lott said no. Orrin Hatch said no. Do these men really deserve to run the Congress during a time of war?
http://americablog.blogspot.com/…
September 4th, 2006 at 12:25 pmSanto your therapist called and said you need to increase the dosage of Valium and Thorizine > lol.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:26 pmTerrorist “threats†that are “successfully averted†by the government are no longer keeping us docile…the administration knows they have to up the ante to keep us under control, and they have absolutely no compunction about doing so.
At this point since 60 percent of the population isn’t “playing nice”, ie, the way they are supposed to play, ie, cowering in fear,… Bush/Rove have no choice but to engineer an attack.
Even if, when it happens, so many of us will know immediately that they are the cause of it, they cannot afford to lose the votes they will lose if it doesn’t happen. Caught in the corner in a lose-lose situation and fighting mean and nasty so as not to go down to the doom they deserve.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:30 pmThe demolition of the twin towers and the staged attack on the Pentagon were both planned out by the P.N.A.C Project for a New
September 4th, 2006 at 12:32 pmAmerican Century in 1997 in their organizational meeting attended bt Cheney, Feith, Pearle. and the rest of the Mossad agents who now work in the White House. Folks this is a coup attempt and you better figure it out. There is only weeks left till the October Suprise. They’re in this so deep that if they don’t succeed, they are going to prison for the rest of their lives . Pay attention. Whats left of our nation depends on it.
the best way to show these idiots what you think is to BOYCOTT ABC–
September 4th, 2006 at 12:34 pmall of its shows, “news”, advertisers, etc. The almighty dollar seems to be the only thing that motivates these lying fatcats.
Dancingdog > NOT a coup attempt, but a successful coup d-etat! Bush may never leave the presidency, since he stole it in 2000 election > the September/October surprise is a few weeks away most likely!
September 4th, 2006 at 12:37 pmDo you wanna read some of your past comments on 911?
Sure. Saves me the time of re-typing them.
Did you change your mind, your heart or it was a necessity?
Since reality didn’t change, neither did I. You fail to recognize that reality is not something you ‘believe’ in, or twist to fit your end results. It is what it is and the reality of it is what i said and continue to stand by.
You know i have them, so drop it before you hurt your credibility even more.
Comment by ABOUT TIME — September 4, 2006 @ 12:22 pm
My credibility is just fine. It’s why I’m considered an expert on the subject.
It’s your own credibility you should be worried about.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:37 pm#99
How about people call Rush Limbaugh’s advertisers and demand they get Bush and Cheney to resign and until they do the person will not buy their products?
September 4th, 2006 at 12:40 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=glaYJzeGK7I
September 4th, 2006 at 12:43 pmHow about people call Rush Limbaugh’s advertisers and demand they get Bush and Cheney to resign and until they do the person will not buy their products?
Comment by dmocrats.org — September 4, 2006 @ 12:40 pm
If enough people got behind that, it’s the most powerful weapon we have against the hostile Corporate American take-over of our political system and government. By hitting them where it hurts – the bottom line – quarterly financial reports to their share holders.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:44 pmAsk yourself why nobody is moving a finger to do some justice around here.And what’s your role in all this?
==
You need to ask Frozen Scandal Man that question..and I sure hope Mr FSM doesn’t show up in the media anytime soon..
September 4th, 2006 at 12:45 pmI wonder if this ‘Documentary’ will discuss building #7?
If there ever is an ‘after the neocon/corporatist/fascism’ time, I hope all these mf’s running the great wurlizter media pipe organ can be tracked down…. ABC and FOX execs will top the list…
September 4th, 2006 at 12:45 pmThere is no San to you stupid Jay Randal!
Comment by Dr Joyce Brother
WOW, and to think people pay for that kind of treatment! =)
September 4th, 2006 at 12:47 pmDear FraudDEM – WHENEVER anyone mentions the caring nature of progs, I can usually count on a moonbat like you to prove them wrong. Of course, you’re probably just a freakish exception…. Thanks!
I find it hilarious when someone makes their screename after a mythical deity whom thought the Moon, Selene [ moon goddess, is known for her countless love affairs] is a total moonbat slut just like Aphrodite..
I mean really MA you are such a blatant hypocrite, and a tin foil moonbat yourself. Worse you don’t even realize what a foolish statement you make by calling others moonbats
I laugh in your face.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:52 pmAphrodite=Selene=Slutty Moonbat
September 4th, 2006 at 12:55 pmRebel With A Cause sez:
The GOP is hoping for a tragic event prior to the mid-term elections. Its a shame, but it is the truth.
My bet is that if one does not occur, they will manufacture one.
It’s already in the works, Rebel. Expect another massive “terrorist incidentâ€, on the scale of 9/11, on either American, Canadian, or British soil, sometime between now and November.
9/11 made the passage of the Patriot act possible.
September 4th, 2006 at 12:59 pmThe work of hijacking the constituion began years prior to that, the patriot act was not the beginning but signals how close we are to the end.
HR4079 was put into place in the early 90’s (and FEMA has been successfully rolled into homeland security the law is in place that will allow for a police state to be initiated and all it will take is a National Emergency Declaration for Bush. What does that mean? It means lif as we know it will no longer exist…for our own good of course.
I do not know how far the neo-cons will take this but if they have worked this hard for this long to set the stage…I think they are going to go on with the show. The neo-cons tried the waters so to speak with Katrina and the insted of a national outrage it produced only a whimper. The neo-cons have quietly invested around 320 million dollars in their own private army..Blackwater. They have been hard at work practicing on Iraqi’s and others. The neo-cons know that they cannot count on teh volunteer military to do what they feel must be done. Blackwater will. Remind you a little of the SS?
So, if your thinking that it would not be a surprise if “something” major were to happen between now and nov…and you think it’s just to win a an election…your thinking too small. neo-cons don’t think small. Nov really doesn’t even matter this could be implemented up until Bush’s last day in office.
if you want to find a relly good summary of HR4079 and all the unbelievable things this law will allow the president to do to you and your family check out William Coopers Behold A Pale Horse…he called all this to the detail years ago and was killed by the police. I am surprised this book is still even available to the public.
Inform yourself America.
Sen. Orrin Hatch, R-Utah, chairman of the Senate Judiciary Committee, emerged from the meeting and said, “These are very controversial provisions that the [Clinton] White House wants. Some they’re not going to get.†….[Hatch] also said he had some problems with the president’s proposals to expand wiretapping.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:01 pm==
But, But, Look! See! IOKIYAR!
On 9/11/2001, planes struck the Twin Towers. Something struck the Pentagon, and another plane crashed in Pennsylvania. The Twin Towers collapsed as did WTC tower 7 which was not struck. Thousands died. NORAD failed to defend American airspace. No one has been held accountable. Except for the fact of thousands dead, that is all I think I know for certain, even after the 9/11 Commission report. Apparently, the answer to what actually happened that day and what lead up to it is, like every other disaster since George Bush became President, Bill Clinton’s fault.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:06 pmOn 9/11/2001, planes struck the Twin Towers. Something struck the Pentagon, and another plane crashed in Pennsylvania. The Twin Towers collapsed as did WTC tower 7 which was not struck. Thousands died. NORAD failed to defend American airspace. No one has been held accountable. Except for the fact of thousands dead, that is all I think I know for certain, even after the 9/11 Commission report. Apparently, the answer to what actually happened that day and what lead up to it is, like every other disaster since George Bush became President, Bill Clinton’s fault.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:06 pmI do not know how far the neo-cons will take this but if they have worked this hard for this long to set the stage…I think they are going to go on with the show.
Naw, the troops are worn and tired and they are not so happy with bush, nor are many of the generals. FEMA is also severely disabled. They will if anything try to introduce a sedition law.
Marshall law would be hard to enforce due to the posse comitatus act [In 1878, Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids military involvement in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval]
Bush is pretty much hosed right now..
September 4th, 2006 at 1:09 pm“Thank goodness our friends and allies did not desert us during our civil war.”-comment by Mighty Aphrodite-August 3, 2006 @ 3:22 pm
September 4th, 2006 at 1:09 pm
Unbelieveble explain to us how the twin towers and building 7 collapse!
Comment by uncontrolled demolition — September 4, 2006 @ 12:57 pm
I already did. You said you had the text from those posts. If so, you don’t need me to repeat it.
But feel free to join my class on Friday, I’ll be teaching it to them.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:10 pmGee, what a surprise. It’s like the Flight 93 comment board and Deb Howell all over again. When confronted, cut and run.
Anyway, Paul Krugman talks about the success of the VA and how it’s been neutered by the GOP, who see it as an obstacle to their own agenda. Medicare Advantage, meanwhile, is a boondoggle for similar reasons: The GOP agenda.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:13 pm#123 Trinary; it’s martial not Marshall.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:13 pmMarshall law would be hard to enforce due to the posse comitatus act [In 1878, Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids military involvement in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval]
Comment by Trinary Sockpuppet — September 4, 2006 @ 1:09 pm
It didn’t stop the military from involvment in Waco. And that led Timopthy McVeigh to retalitae with the Murrah Building bombing in return.
Further proof that violence begets further violence and not peace.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:14 pmPosse Comitatus Act does not apply to Blackwater paid mercenaries. And if you think the relevant pieces of FEMA are disabled, go talk to the folks who are right now living in FEMA camps. Oh, I forgot, they are not permitted to talk to the public…….
September 4th, 2006 at 1:17 pmthis is not a documentary?? are they talking to a nation where 50 percent of the population STILL think there are WMDs?? get serious.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:18 pmI want to savor that thought for a few minutes — at least.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:20 pmDidn’t CBS cancel a scheduled “documentary” film on Reagan a couple years back?
September 4th, 2006 at 1:22 pmWe might try pressuring ABC to do the same.
Peter Jennings is gone.
Ted Koppel is gone.
Stossel is still there. That is part of the explanation for the decline of ABC.
GOP propaganda …Blame Clinton . Karl Rove thinks americans are stupid.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:23 pmWhen fascism comes to America, it will be wrapped in the flag and carrying a cross. -Sinclair Lewis
==
I find it hard to believe the clever Mighty Aphrodite is ignorant of history and the rise of fascism in Germany.
==
It didn’t stop the military from involvment in Waco. And that led Timopthy McVeigh to retalitae with the Murrah Building bombing in return.
Further proof that violence begets further violence and not peace.
Comment by unbelievable
Agreed.
Ironically that is exactly why Mcveigh [A member of a Elohym group] a Repubican, blew up the Murrah Building..
September 4th, 2006 at 1:23 pmIsn’t it time to flood the ABC sponsors before the movie is aired. Aggenda driven pieces have been pulled before if there is a large enough outcry. Who are the advertisers for this movie? Networks are having a hard time now since DVR and TIVO has made bypassing commercials so easy. Why not let the advertisers know that we will not open our wallets for products that sponsor this kind of garbage. If any subject ever needed to be treated as pure NON FICTION, this is the one. The networks know full well how easily the public is confused, since they are so uniformed to begin with. This is nothing but a gift to the Administration to further mislead.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:24 pmhttp://www.fas.org/irp/threat/mcveigh/part07.htm
September 4th, 2006 at 1:26 pmVII. BEYOND ELOHIM CITY.
A. Suspect I. Posse Comitatus. and Iraq.
The defense believes that there is credible evidence that a conspiracy to
bomb federal property, very possibly the Murrah Building, is centered in
Elohim City and the persons described which are associated with Elohim City,
but that the technical expertise and possibly financial support came from a
foreign country, most likely Iraq, but possibly Iran or another state in the
Middle East. Dennis Mahon has admitted publicly to received money from Iraq,
approximately once a month. D.E. 2191 at 11. According to Mahon, the money
started arriving in 1991 after he began holding rallies protesting the
Persian Gulf War. Id.
unbelievable,
I see Santo is still imprinted on you. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 1:26 pmABC is owned by Disney and Disney knows silly. Its spokescreature is a mouse that has its own dog.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:27 pmI want to savor that thought for a few minutes — at least.
Comment by Marie
heh! =0]
September 4th, 2006 at 1:27 pm#136: “Karl Rove thinks americans are stupid.” – - Americans are certainly sheep-like and easily manipulated. Is that stupid? You decide.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:30 pmNow if we can just get them to yank the FICTIONAL docudrama, we’ll have accomplished something. Does anyone know who is buying ad space for this piece of fiction/
September 4th, 2006 at 1:30 pmSorry, this is off topic but it I didn’t derai the thread, but perhaps it will eventually lead to a DOT that does;
September 4th, 2006 at 1:31 pm==
DENNIS MAHON is a former Imperial Dragon of the Ku Klux Klan and a consultant to the White Aryan Resistance (WAR). He used to visit ELOHIM CITY for …
http://www.aci.net/kalliste/okcbomb2.htm
I think Karl Rove is a clever little professor, or asperger. He showed early signs of genius but he really is more like a idio-savant in that he is very good at one thing. Lying.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:34 pmSanto, it’s spelled B-R-O-T-H-E-R-S, not “Brother.”
September 4th, 2006 at 1:34 pm…I’m considered an expert on the subject.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 12:37 pm
whaaa???! says who??? i missed that…
September 4th, 2006 at 1:34 pmcongratulations?
I see Unbelieveable has her own personal troll with a serious multiple personality issue.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:38 pmABOUT TIME – discussing anything with a self-proclaimed “expert” is often telling….Naturally, designing schools makes one an expert on every type of architectural endeavor.
When a spinster school marm discusses the theories of child-rearing, I am LOL!! (You know what they say, those who can – do, those who can’t – teach…) I guess all the rotten conservative parents of selfish children stand out among the crowd of latte and limo liberals. (I thought progs liked working mothers? At least all the lib gals I work with keep telling me THAT.) Maybe she could impart some of her “wisdom” on the erstwhile Kennedy parents – oops….toooooo late for that …..
We’re off for a fun-filled family day!
September 4th, 2006 at 1:39 pmMarshall law would be hard to enforce due to the posse comitatus act [In 1878, Congress passed the Posse Comitatus Act, which forbids military involvement in domestic law enforcement without congressional approval]
Comment by Trinary Sockpuppet — September 4, 2006 @ 1:09 pm
Since when does the congress have shit to say about anything?
This has all been way too easy for the neo-cons. It has been proven to the inth degree that if sufficiently stmulated by fear, the american public will comply and will stand by while those deemed a threat (those who dissent) are dealt with. The data bases and massive amounts of information collected on millions of Americans since 1953 will make it easy to determine which of us don’t make the cut. The mainstream media and telecommunications co. won’t help us because they are already on board and will hand over control to the feds when the National emergency order is issued. Not that they don’t already serve them …..just not “officially”.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:39 pmI’m not thrilled about this, since so many people accepted without thinking anything they see on television as truth. I’ve *very* upset about Scholastic Magazine using this six-hour campaign ad as a teaching platform. http://content.scholastic.com/browse/lessonplan.jsp?id=415
September 4th, 2006 at 1:39 pmI’ve gone to their customer support section to decry this action, and shall contact local school boards to protest their using it, or Scholastic Magazine. Please feel free to join me in voicing your opinion to them.
martial law was put on the poor folks of louisiana. martial law is every bit of our society. what do you think the reich stag fire, ooops patriot act is.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:42 pmComment by ABOUT TIME
September 4th, 2006 at 1:43 pmIn all your stupid rantings will you post something of interest?
Since when does the congress have shit to say about anything?
==
I understand how you may feel, I am equally dissapointed in our Senate… But that is what we have to work with at this point in time.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:43 pmIn all your stupid rantings will you post something of interest?
–Juan C
They can’t post anything of interest because it disproves whatever they are ranting about.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:46 pmComment by Monica’s Stalker
SShh, Santo. Take the pills and the voices will go away.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:47 pmwe really don’t have to work with this kind of ignorance if the american folks would bump their head. or let’s just say, get involved and stop being so gullable that our gov. does no wrong because they loooooooove there americans.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:48 pmHappy Comrades Day…..
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Why do you have such hatred for America’s workers? Calling working Americans “comrades’ stinks of the same elitism you accuse us of. And you should let “little MA” out of the canary cage; it would be a good idea to treat her with a little more respect, as she’ s going to be your sole source of support in a few years.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:48 pmIronically that is exactly why Mcveigh [A member of a Elohym group] a Repubican, blew up the Murrah Building..
Comment by Trinary Sockpuppet — September 4, 2006 @ 1:23 pm
I certainly agree that the militant Republican system that helped create him as a fighting machine also turned him into someone who solved problems through violence. It was their way and they were surprised when it bit them, just as our government was surprised when Osama bit them too. The guy they funded, trained and taught VIOLENCE… surpsise, surprise used violence… What a bunch of idiots running the show.
And not what the majority of Americans wanted then or want now. There is no will of the people anymore.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:50 pmBarfly,
MA hates everyone and everything.
It never responds to me, thank goodness, maybe someone could ask it this question:
Who do you respect?
September 4th, 2006 at 1:51 pmIf they are all we have then…God help us all.
the public better get on their ass hard, heavy and fast.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:51 pmCause right now, counting on them is like spitting in the wind.
And not what the majority of Americans wanted then or want now. There is no will of the people anymore.
Comment by unbelievable
Actually Un I think we have pretty good will =)
September 4th, 2006 at 1:52 pmTrinary Sockpuppet,
Heh.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:53 pmI see Santo is still imprinted on you. :)
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 1:26 pm
Lucky me…
Oh, come on, admit it Zoo, you save all of MA’s posts too ; )
September 4th, 2006 at 1:54 pmIt was founded in 1973 by MIGHT APHRODITE, a Canadian..
Did I get that Right MA, your a canadian? Or are you wearing your Seixon wooden shoes today?
September 4th, 2006 at 1:55 pmwhy are you so concerned about a liar?
Comment by Monica’s Stalker — September 4, 2006 @ 1:45 pm
Santo/Dr Joyce/Above the Law/Monica’s Stalker/Demolition,
Juan C didn’t mention Unbelievable, but I am going to go out on a limb and say he doesn’t care for your personal problem with Unbelievable. Quite frankly, neither do I and I doubt anyone else does.
Either contribute with something meaningful for a change or go away. You are a worst nuisance than the trolls.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:56 pmlatte and limo liberals
September 4th, 2006 at 1:56 pmAgain MA proves how out of touch she is.
Liberals/Democrats/Progressives actually know what it’s like to work for a living. It is the born with a silver-spoon, inherited wealth of the “brie and cheese” his phrase, of course) Bush ilk that belong in the latte and limo group of the Republiscum. The rest of us are drinking coffee from a mug at work and driving our own beat up automobiles.
The writer of this movie is a Bush supporter. Dispite his, ABC’s, and the producer’s latest comments, it is part of the Bush agenda to gather support for the conservatives. Boycott this film and call the sponsors of ABC and tell them you will boycott their products for supporting a film of lies and conservative/rightwing agenda. The writer of this film is Persian and was a supporter of the infamous Iranian Dictator, The Shaw of Iran.
September 4th, 2006 at 1:59 pmMA is an empty vessel. I dont know how people still engage with her. (Zoo, you can keep doing it. You are funny) :)
September 4th, 2006 at 2:00 pmbut i just don’t buy it!!! ..unbelievable.
Comment by ABOUT TIME — September 4, 2006 @ 1:27 pm
Why? You have an aversion to the truth?
September 4th, 2006 at 2:01 pmOh, come on, admit it Zoo, you save all of MA’s posts too ; )
Comment by unbelievable
No frickin’ way, unbelievable. But if I did, I know i could find the perfect spot for them — at the bottom of a latrine.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:02 pmYou pathetical people who see ghost
==
I dont see them. I feel the ektoplasmic coldness as I pass thru them however =)
/sarcon
September 4th, 2006 at 2:02 pm(Zoo, you can keep doing it. You are funny) :)
Comment by Juan C
I’m not voluteering for that duty. There are plenty of other people with quicker wit that can take on that bitch.
Good morning, Juan!
September 4th, 2006 at 2:04 pmwhaaa???! says who??? i missed that…
congratulations?
Comment by katy — September 4, 2006 @ 1:34 pm
Says a court of law. Now STFU. You’re really very immature and it’s really very obnoxious.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:05 pmBring it on liars! I can take you one at the time, there is not a lot of you in here anyway!
September 4th, 2006 at 2:06 pm==
Hey look George got drunk and has started his ‘Bring it on!” rabid rants again — Here George, stand up!, Okay. Good boy. Now chew on this Pretzel and allow me to scoot this table over to catch your fall when you start choking er swallowing..
I feel the ektoplasmic coldness as I pass thru them however =)
/sarcon
Comment by Trinary Sockpuppet
He he. I laugh like an idiot every time I remember Ghostbusters and Egon´s explanation of cosmic destruction with a twinky.
Good morning, Juan!
September 4th, 2006 at 2:08 pmComment by Zooey
Good morning? I am about to have lunch, Zoo. Where do you live? :)
This ghost will hunt you and your writings down till you change your mind again, get it?
Naw I kicked the Klipahs butt a long time ago Fabian. =)
September 4th, 2006 at 2:08 pmI have left a complaint with the contact us part of ABC’s website. Can Think Progress leave a more direct email so that we can tell ABC what we think about this Right Wing Fantasy that they are calling a Documentary
September 4th, 2006 at 2:09 pmI see Unbelieveable has her own personal troll with a serious multiple personality issue.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — September 4, 2006 @ 1:38 pm
You want it? Free to a good home… (or the first taker :)
September 4th, 2006 at 2:09 pmNaturally, designing schools makes one an expert on every type of architectural endeavor.
Comment by mighty aphrodite — September 4, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
Further proof you are not a lawyer, or you’d know that my education and expertience qualify me as an expert.
I’ve designed much more than just schools. And in atleast 15 different states and four different countries.
As usual, your ignorance and inability to control your own self-imposed boycott on me is showing.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:11 pmFabio you really need to study more subjects;
Klipah [From Torah] is the power of anti-divinty, the force which tries to deter us from doing Gd’s will. ..
September 4th, 2006 at 2:11 pmWhere do you live? :)
Comment by Juan C
The Great Red State of Idaho, USA
September 4th, 2006 at 2:11 pmReally Fabio, err King Gihdorah, get a book.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:13 pmNo Gregor, Unbelieveble played with fire and got burned on her own game!
Comment by Sandy — September 4, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
The fact that you actually believe that is further validation of my credibility. Thanks…
I bet Santo also argues with doctors and laywers about their expert opinions… LOL
September 4th, 2006 at 2:14 pmThat freedom of speech stuff is tricky ain’t it ABC?
September 4th, 2006 at 2:14 pmThe Great Red State of Idaho, USA
Comment by Zooey
I knew that. Still burning the fields?
September 4th, 2006 at 2:14 pmUnaturally, unhinged freeper keyboarders makes one an expert on every type of every endeavor.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:14 pmComment by mighty aphrodite
I have your name and picture i don’t need your book.
Comment by The fabian strategy
And I have your mojo.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:15 pmThey can’t post anything of interest because it disproves whatever they are ranting about.
Comment by Trinary Sockpuppet — September 4, 2006 @ 1:46 pm
They? Santo is many IDs – but just one court jester.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:20 pmFabians..hmm naw. I don’t need any logos or symbols to teach me how to use my mind. Thanks anyway but I’m a lone wolf kinda guy..
September 4th, 2006 at 2:21 pmI, for one, have every intention of watching ABC’s docu-drama, and here’s why:
1. We already know that 9-11 took place on Bush’s watch, and it was the incompetence of his Administration which led this tragedy to happen (this crap about Clinton being to blame simply doesn’t wash — Clinton WARNED him personally about al-Qaeda, the intelligence was THERE, but ignored, and people are STILL being stifled as to the truth of the run-up to 9-11).
2. I want to see if there will be any mention of Operation: ABLE DANGER. You know, the operatives who had actually IDENTIFIED the 9–11 hijackers, but whose intel was stifled by none other than…well, I’m sure you can figure it out (here’s a hint: it WASN’T al-Qaeda).
3. Forewarned is forearmed, people, and in light of the fact that there is an election in which the certain Congressman and women are in some really big trouble in some very consequential races, I would like to see exactly what kind of spin it is that this “docu-drama” is supposed to contain that can be used by people in these races, and rest assured, if it can be, it will be. But hey, I’m willing to admit that I could be wrong…I just want to see this for myself to know for sure.
I have spoken.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:21 pmDid you learn that in college?
Comment by ABOUT TIME
Yes the invisible college of the sacred geometry..=)
September 4th, 2006 at 2:22 pmJacques Demolay isn’t me =)
September 4th, 2006 at 2:24 pmActually Un I think we have pretty good will =)
Comment by Trinary Sockpuppet — September 4, 2006 @ 1:52 pm
Where? In the economy? War on Iraq? Illegal wiretappings? No one in government represents the will of the people. It’s extinct in government.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:25 pmhas anyone heard from harvey kietel or his rep. as to his take on this project and why he chose to do it?
September 4th, 2006 at 2:26 pmNo frickin’ way, unbelievable. But if I did, I know i could find the perfect spot for them — at the bottom of a latrine.
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 2:02 pm
I don’t read most of them anymore. They’re all the same – condescention based on emotion and really bad attempts at sarcasm. I think a latrine is kind… Hmm, perhaps he could line those canary cages with his wisdom?
September 4th, 2006 at 2:30 pmI just want to see this for myself to know for sure.
I have spoken.
Comment by THE SHADOWDRAGON
What you will see is this:
Good guy: I love America
September 4th, 2006 at 2:31 pmBad guy: I hate America
Good guy: How could this happen if we are so good with everybody?
Bad guy: Bwahahahaha.
Good guy: Im going to get you, punk!
Van Halen´s guitar while a jet cruises the sky with a flag waving.
End.
I knew that. Still burning the fields?
Comment by Juan C
*cough* Yes *cough*
It looks like some are being burned intentionally, and others by accident. It’s worse today than yesterday, and it was bad yesterday!
My eldest son showed up on my doorstep alst night for a visit, so we’re out of here for a while.
Have fun ya’ll!
September 4th, 2006 at 2:31 pmI have your name and picture i don’t need your book.
Comment by The fabian strategy — September 4, 2006 @ 2:14 pm
Okay. I call… What’s my name?
September 4th, 2006 at 2:34 pmIsn’t this the puff piece to blame everything on Clinton? Who would want to watch another piece of fantasy programming anyway?
Last time I looked the only thing that mattered was “who is the President today? Under whose watch did these tragedies occur?”. That’s what’s relevant and germane.
This sounds like another GOP blame game and not worth watching.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:35 pmWhat a flip floper!
Comment by Susy Lou — September 4, 2006 @ 2:28 pm
Santo,
A flip flopper is one who changes his or her mind. I haven’t.
Shouldn’t you be re-banned by now?
September 4th, 2006 at 2:36 pmClarification
…
2) This is not a right wing agenda movie…By the way, we are also being accused of being a left wing movie that bashes Bush.
why do the righties always try to lie about such info…
September 4th, 2006 at 2:37 pmdo they actually think it gives them more cred?
i hate when people try to pretend to be left/liberal/prog…
it’s always so obvious what the true intentions are…
What else do you expect frm a show produced by Wingnuts?
Go here for the real answers.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:38 pmi hate when people try to pretend to be left/liberal/prog…
it’s always so obvious what the true intentions are…
Comment by katy — September 4, 2006 @ 2:37 pm
Then stop. You should try acting your age for a change. You’re extremely immature for some one so old. And the fact that people younger than you have to point it out makes it that much more annoying. Grow up.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:40 pmYour name is for my people to know not for me to repeat in her like a yellow canary!
Comment by Sandy — September 4, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
Go ahead. I give you my permission. What’s my name?
September 4th, 2006 at 2:41 pmYour name is for my people to know
Mentos
The ones in your head?
September 4th, 2006 at 2:42 pmMadashell,
Maybe they did. Loose Change just doesn’t validate that. That’s my point. That the buildings fell from the plane crashes and not explosives. Saying that there were explosives makes the entire premise incredible…
I studied this stuff and worked on many buildings in my career. The theory put forth in Loose Change in regard to the towers collapse is really significantly flawed.
I just don’t see the evidence that they did anything more than allow it to happen. Until I do, I can’t get on board. Nothing personal.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:44 pmNone of the sites I posted have anything to do with the MOVIE Loose Change -
September 4th, 2006 at 2:45 pmMentos
Comment by Barfly — September 4, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
Nope. Not even close.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:45 pmSo long as the “docudrama” includes the part where Junior accepts the PDB and says “Okay, you’ve covered your ass. You can get out now.”
September 4th, 2006 at 2:46 pmLoose Change is synonymous with the Alternative Inside Job Theories. Stuff about conspiracy being found in the building falling in upon itself, instead of falling over. When, in reality, buildings are simply too large to do anything but fall in upon themselves. They don’t ever fall over. There are no forces in nature large enough to push them over. And so on…
September 4th, 2006 at 2:48 pmWHY are people NOT WILLING to listen to these people:
Scholars for 9/11 Truth (S9/11T) is a non-partisan association of faculty, students, and scholars, in fields as diverse as history, science, military affairs, psychology, and philosophy, dedicated to exposing falsehoods and to revealing truths behind 9/11.
The members of Scholars for 9/11 Truth are encouraged to take an active role by devoting themselves to reporting the results of research on 9/11 to the nation and the world by means of lectures, articles, and other venues.
Scholars for 9/11 Truth members are convinced their research proves the current administration has been dishonest about what happened in New York and Washington, D.C.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:53 pmPartly because they are scholars and not experts practicing in their fields… Speculation is great, you just don’t hang your hat on it.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:54 pmWhy Doubt 9/11?
by James H. Fetzer
As the founder of Scholars for 9/11 Truth, I would observe that our members, building on prior research by earlier students of 9/11, have established more than a dozen disproofs of the official government account, the truth of any one of which is enough to show that the government’s account–in one or another of its guises–cannot possibly be correct.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:55 pmMentos
Nope. Not even close.
Comment by unbelievable
I think it fits Santo’s candy-ass arguments.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:56 pmHow come, if CBS can pull “The Reagans” which was a ridiculous piece of work (although I did find it a bit amusing, fun and with good acting – both nominated for Golden Globes and Emmys – not to mention a great top-notch director), then why shouldn’t ABC pull this propoganda? Of course with such glorious credits as “Little House on the Prarie” and “Falcon Crest”, let’s give this director and writer 13 more episodes and make it a Fall Series!
September 4th, 2006 at 2:58 pmDixie,
In physics, there is no force great enough to tip a 208′ building 104′ off its center of gravity. Partly why they build them with such large footprints. For exactly what you said – so in the event of a catastrophy, you don’t harm more people than necessary.
The intent of building codes and reduncency in structural engineering isn’t to prevent all catastrophies – but to minimize their impact. Because we know that we cannot prevent everything.
For instance, building insulation is not designed for impact loads, because in most cases, there are no impacts upon the fireproofing. On 9/11, the planes impacted the fireproofing on the center columns and took away their ability to withstand fire – which in turn weakened them enough to fail.
September 4th, 2006 at 2:59 pmDIGG IT!
September 4th, 2006 at 3:00 pmhttp://digg.com/political_opinion/Under_Fire_ABC_Yanks_Official_Blog_of_9_11_Docudrama
I think it fits Santo’s candy-ass arguments.
Comment by Barfly — September 4, 2006 @ 2:56 pm
True :)
September 4th, 2006 at 3:00 pmOkay – this is exactly what I expected, I guess. Here is a partial list of the SCHOLARS I’m talking about –
Derrick P. Grimmer
Physics, Alternative energy
David Griscom
Physics of optical materials, Materials science and engineering, Author/co-author of nearly 200 publications
Andrew Johnson
Physics, Computer Science, Software Engineering
Steven Jones
Professor of Physics, Brigham Young University, co-chair of Scholars for 9/11 Truth and the creator of its home page and its forum
George Nelson
Colonel, USAF (retired)
Joseph M. Phelps
Structural Dynamicist Charter Member, Structural Engineering Institute of the American Society of Civil Engineers
Doyle Winterton
Civil Engineering Structural Engineering
and here’s the COMPLETE list: Who Are We?
September 4th, 2006 at 3:02 pmFollow the money.
Find out what favors Disney has been getting from the Bush regime. It is obvious they have a corrupt quid pro quo relationship. Is Disney getting special tax cuts? no bid contracts? regulatory favors? FCC sweetheart deals?
It is always about corporate profits. Disney has decided to whore for the Bush regime in exchange for govt favors.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:02 pmWill this troll now run or give up some info? Just another riechwing blowhard!!!
Comment by dixie blood — September 4, 2006 @ 2:58 pm
He doesn’t know. He’s been threatening since February to show up at my house, expose my real identity and so on. It’s just empty bully tactics that I don’t fall for.
I figure if he knew, he’d have said by now…
September 4th, 2006 at 3:02 pmSorry Unbelievable – BUT I will believe the professors who have PROVEN otherwise your statement:
The impact of the planes cannot have caused enough damage to bring the buildings down, since the buildings were designed to withstand them (as Frank DeMartini, the project manager, has observed), the planes that hit were very similar to those they were designed to withstand, and they continued to stand after those impacts with negligible effects.
The melting point of steel at 2,800*F is about 1,000*F higher than the maximum burning temperature of jet-fuel-based fires, which do not exceed 1,800*F under optimal conditions, so the fires cannot have caused the steel to melt, which means that melting steel did not bring the buildings down.
UL certified the steel in the buildings up to 2,000*F for at least six hours before it would even significantly weaken, where these fires burned too low and too briefly–about one hour in the South Tower and one and a half in the North–to have even caused the steel to weaken, much less melt.
If the steel had melted or weakened, the affected floors would have displayed completely different behavior, with some asymmetrical sagging and tilting, which would have been gradual and slow, not the complete, abrupt, and total demolition that was observed.
There was not enough kinetic energy for the collapse of one floor to bring about the collapse of the next lower floor, even if the impact of the planes and the ensuing fires had been enough to cause the steel to weaken, which means that, even if one floor had collapsed due to the impacts and the fires, that could not have caused lower floors to fall.
There was not enough kinetic energy for the collapse of one floor to bring about the pulverization of the next floor, even if the impact of the planes and the ensuing fires had been enough to cause the steel to weaken and one floor to collapse upon another, which required a massive source of energy beyond any that the government has considered.
Heavy steel construction buildings like the Twin Towers, built with more than 100,000 tons of steel, are not even capable of “pancake collapse”, which can only occur with concrete structures of “lift slab” construction and could not occur in “redundant” welded-steel buildings, such as the towers, unless every supporting column were removed at the same time, as Charles Pagelow has pointed out to me.
The destruction of the South Tower in 10 seconds and of the North in 11 is even faster than free fall with only air resistance, which would have taken at least 12 seconds, which, as Judy Wood has emphasized, is an astounding result that would have been impossible without extremely powerful explosives.
The towers are exploding from the top, not collapsing to the ground, where the floors do not move, a phenomenon that Judy Wood has likened to two gigantic trees turning to sawdust from the top down, which, like the pulverization of the concrete, the official account cannot possibly explain.
Pools of molten metal were found at the subbasement levels three, four, and five weeks later, an effect that could not have been produced by the plane-impact/jet-fuel-fire/pancake collapse scenario, which, of course, implies that it was not produced by such a cause.
WTC-7 came down in a classic controlled demolition at 5:20 PM/ET after Larry Silverstein suggested the best thing to do might be to “pull it”, displaying all the characteristics of classic controlled demolitions, including a complete, abrupt, and total collapse into its own footprint, where the floors are all falling at the same time, and so forth, an event so embarrassing to the official account that it is not even mentioned in THE 9/11 COMMISSION REPORT.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:04 pmMadashell,
How are you missing the point that scholars are NOT experts? And that steel doesn’t have to MELT to fail?
You can believe them all you want. It’s just that people who have built buildings (me and the many people I know from the time I started college 22 years ago) don’t need to believe. We know from accepting what we have experience doing.
Who would you allow to operate on you in heart surgery? A phD with no heart surgeries under her belt, or a Heart surgeon with 14 years of herat surgeries under her belt?
Tome, the choice isn’t even one I have to think about. And it applies aptly to the experts on buildings – those who have spent years building them, not just studying the idea of building them.
Sorry. The examples you posted are flawed, and not based on my experience or those I know in the profession.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:12 pmAs per the Fabian, I am reading your Ricardian theory.
http://cepa.newschool.edu/het/schools/ricardian.htmyour R
September 4th, 2006 at 3:13 pmDid I see Jesus on CNN flash by as the page loaded?
September 4th, 2006 at 3:14 pmAnother thing Unbelievable – more than 40% of our population is starting to QUESTION all things related to 9/11, and are jumping on the bandwagon as well.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:18 pmWhat I want to know is this;
Did the WTC have explosive charges installed as part of the building code to keep the buildings from toppling that could be set off to prevent such topple?
September 4th, 2006 at 3:21 pmSo what is one to do – believe a high school science teacher or a University Professor when it comes to PHYSICS?
Comment by madashell — September 4, 2006 @ 3:15 pm
When it comes to Statics (structural physics), you should believe someone who has successfully designed and built buildings.
Prior to becoming an Architecture teacher (I teach Architecture this year), I designed and had built approximately 16 different buildings around the world and another 40-50 interior spaces in skyscrapers. So far, everything is still standing except a restaurant I designed in Taiwan that was destroyed by an earthquake). That would, as I keep pointing out, in a court of law, make me an expert on building design. Not so for the college professor who hasn’t really tested any of his hypothesis in the real word.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:22 pmSeptember 4th, 2006 at 3:24 pm
not college professor, college professorSSSSSSS
Civil engineers and even those involved in the building of the TOWERS!
September 4th, 2006 at 3:24 pmAll I can say is Harvey Keitel is dead to me now. Once you take the wingnut walk, there is no coming back.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:24 pmAnother thing Unbelievable – more than 40% of our population is starting to QUESTION all things related to 9/11, and are jumping on the bandwagon as well.
Comment by madashell — September 4, 2006 @ 3:18 pm
38-40% still support Bush…
September 4th, 2006 at 3:24 pmhe fact that a Spanish skyscraper is still standing after an intense fire consumed the steel and concrete tower for 24 hours provides real …
September 4th, 2006 at 3:27 pmhttp://www.whatreallyhappened.com/spain_fire_9-11.html
i hate when people try to pretend to be left/liberal/prog…
it’s always so obvious what the true intentions are…
Comment by katy — September 4, 2006 @ 2:37 pm
Then stop. You should…
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 2:40 pm
aww… did you think i meant that for YOU?
really, project and/or transfer much? truth: it wasn’t…
#247-katy,
It’s the same old “Some of my best friends are…(fill in the blank)†bulls!t.
Comment by dixie blood — September 4, 2006 @ 2:46 pm
yep… there’s lots of them… but it’s so obvious…
September 4th, 2006 at 3:27 pmand so unnecessary…
glad you got that…
aww… did you think i meant that for YOU?
really, project and/or transfer much? truth: it wasn’t…
Comment by katy — September 4, 2006 @ 3:27 pm
Yes it was. You’re not only immature but transparent. And, apparently, a liar when called out on your immaturity.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:30 pmIf there is anything that compels me to attempt to see my fellow Americans as they really are, rather than the way I would like them to be, it’s the continuing support Bush receives in this country. To paraphrase Judge Welch of Joe McCarthy fame: “Have you people no brains, at long last, have you no brains?
September 4th, 2006 at 3:36 pmand what are they? No nothings?
September 4th, 2006 at 3:39 pmI left a comment questioning the bias of the writer/producer…funny it never made their website….chicken shits.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:42 pmThere’s just no way Muslims can do this! They’re a peace loving bunch. Besides only us whites can do this. Arabs are just too stupid to have pulled off 9/11!
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 3:40 pm
Oh God.
Here we go again.
Ok people, some dickhead too afraid to meet me in open debate has decided to forge my handle and post crap.
I didn’t post this.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:43 pm#322
You’re not qualified anymore than anyone else that NEVER had an opportunity to examine the debris.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:43 pmAllah is definently infecting you with madness. We’re triumphant everywhere. Iraq, Afghanistan, Somalia and Lebanon.
And what? Your gonna throw sand in our face and make us convert so we can become dirt farmers? In case you haven’t noticed fake extremist, we are mostly against this war. Tell you what, if you want to be a messenger write an email to the white house with what you just posted and you will likely be bush’s next Osama puppet.
Excuse me If I snicker at your inane rants.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:44 pmLeftists Marxist allies. You guys are a bunch of no life crazies!
Marx was Jewish you ding dong his name was really Levy.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:46 pmBesides what Marx wrote was written in a dualistic fashon, it was never for the working man…
It is generally good history and accurately conveys the excruciating missed opportunities. It is not partisan. The Bush administration is portrayed as just as asleep-at-the-switch as the Clinton administration — particularly in the person of then-National Security Adviser Condoleezza Rice (the Clarke influence really comes through here).
The fact, though, is that Clinton had eight times as long as Bush to deal with this crisis, and his administration’s performance was wanting. They did some good things — the terror prosecutions were successful if ineffectual, and the 1996 anti-terror legislation was excellent — it is still more important than the Patriot Act in terms of counterterrorism enforcement. But they also dropped the ball very badly in several places. The Wall was an unmitigated disaster, and the Clinton administration simply had other priorities — concerns over hypothetical civil liberties problems, the quest to solve the Israeli/Palestinian issue, worries over what the “international community” would say if America took decisive action against bin Laden in Sudan or Afghanistan — that caused them to subordinate the al Qaeda threat.
It doesn’t mean President Clinton didn’t care about the bin Laden threat. I think he cared deeply about it. I think President Bush cares deeply about the Iranian threat. But history is not about our hearts; it’s about our actions.
And the people trying to smear this film are the same ones who insist the Bush administration had bin Laden cornered in Tora Bora and incompetently let him get away. If we have to listen to that riff, is it not at least equally appropriate to point out that: bin Laden was a big problem from at least 1996 on; that he was placed under indictment in Spring 1998 to facilitate his capture; that he thereafter bombed the U.S. embassies in Kenya and Tanzania and the U.S.S. Cole, and probably had a hand in the Millennium plot against LA Int’l Airport (to say nothing of the 1996 Khobar Towers bombing); and that the Clinton administration did not take the actions necessary to stop him despite knowing where bin Laden was and having several opportunities to capture or kill him?
That’s how it happened, like it or not.
Andrew C. McCarthy
September 4th, 2006 at 3:46 pmFormer federal prosecutor – U.S Attorney Office for SDNY
Led prosecution of Sheik Omar Abdel Rahman
Successfully defended several terrorism convictions on appeal, including those in the Millennium plot to bomb Los Angeles International Airport
You are aginst war. We love it! That’s why we’re kicking some American infidel ass! Your kids will recite the Koran, there’s no appeasing us!
Comment by Jamal
I am against the Iraq war because it was the Wahabbis that were the attackers. I am all for taking out the wahhabis such as yourself, Bush is just a blind reactionary fool, and a Republican, which I am not.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:48 pmI’m sure Exley will pretend congress passed all the terror initiative legislation that Clinton proposed so he can absolve the GOP of any responsibility.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:50 pmThe fact, though, is that Clinton had eight times as long as Bush to deal with this crisis,
Wrong the WTC was attacked in clintons first month in office.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:51 pmThe WTC was attacked under bush in his ninth month in office. Well past the 100 days. Not only that Bush took a month of vacation in August, to clear Brush, and basically ignored the PDB
What ‘facts’ do you have Unbelievable?
The facts that came from a complete evaluation of the buildings remains?
When did that happen?
September 4th, 2006 at 3:54 pmTELL ABC TO BURN THAT BUNCH OF GUTTER TRASH LIES!
AND DISNEY TOO!
!
September 4th, 2006 at 3:57 pmI am not knocking anyone here or their education or credentias, but it just doesn’t seem to me a 767 would knock down the WTC….
Comment by Trinary Sockpuppet — September 4, 2006 @ 3:34 pm
Most of the jet fuel leaked on to the floor and caught the entire thing on fire. Remember all that smoke? It’s what caused equal compromise of the floor system and caused it to fail.
The proof that a plane can collapse a tower is in the simplicity that it collapsed two… Under the same situation, both buildings faild because of the same factor – the planes.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:58 pmThen don’t talk to me like I’m lying when I’ve always been up front about what I’ve done and what I do now. I’m an architect who became a teacher last year. You know that. Even well before the 9/11 stuff came up.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 3:52 pm
No. I didn’t remember that. I talk to about 200 bloggers a day. I knew you did something but I didn’t remember.
And if you want to get pissed at me fine.
Take a number and get in line.
September 4th, 2006 at 3:58 pmComment by mighty aphrodite
Eating their own is something the Republicans have been doing alot of lately, that is when they aren’t jumping ship..
September 4th, 2006 at 3:58 pmHe also said IF there was some sort of phenomenon that caused one of the buildings to drop perfectly into its own footprint
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 3:35 pm
Except that buildings physically can only fall on their own footprint at this size. There is no other option.
NONE. Go study Statics and learn for yourself.
You sure this guy is a structural engineer on buildings higher than one story? Because he doesn’t sound like any that I know, and I’ve worked on a couple high-rise ones.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:01 pm[...] Of course groups like Soros’s “Think Progress” are barking that it’s all a fraud because the director is conservative and Rush Limbaugh are talking it up. But factually they haven’t presented anything that refutes the facts in the movie, which takes it’s script in large part from the 9/11 Commission Report, which incidently they have no problem with when it faults the present administration. [...]
September 4th, 2006 at 4:01 pmYes space aliens did 9/11 that’s what all right wing dum A%@ would say when they are put on the spot about truth. So use my name as you will because i will be laughing at you when you find that you are just a puppet of the right wing christian fundamentalist have fun with my name.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:09 pmThe proof that a plane can collapse a tower is in the simplicity that it collapsed two… Under the same situation, both buildings faild because of the same factor – the planes.
Comment by unbelievable
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
well Im gonna do some more reading, but nevertheless, what caused the building to fall, there are just too many unanswered questions as to why Able Danger knew of these Hijakers and Sibel Edmonds story also comes to mind..
And it happened on Bushs watch. Trying to blame Clinton is just silly, We should Blame Bush Sr, and Reagan for training the Freedom Fighters,,
September 4th, 2006 at 4:09 pmVariety’s review:
By BRIAN LOWRY
Perhaps unavoidably, ABC’s “The Path to 9/11″ plays like a compendium of movies and documentaries surrounding that fateful day — a pinch of “United 93″ here, a dollop of “World Trade Center” there. Derived in part from the 9/11 Commission report, this five-hour presentation is earnest but scattered and a little plodding, with the most powerful aspect involving John O’Neill, the terrorism expert slain in the attack, strongly played by Harvey Keitel. Although NBC cleared ABC’s path by scrubbing its own planned 9/11 miniseries, it’s still a trail littered with the host of productions that preceded it.
Indeed, the sheer glut of 9/11-related programming during the run-up to the fifth anniversary has risked trivializing those events — as if this were Valentine’s Day or Halloween, triggering all those themed episodes that networks trot out.
Judged strictly on its merits, “Path to 9/11″ — drawn from several books as well as the commission report, with co-chairman Thomas H. Kean onboard as a producer-consultant — is certainly ambitious, chronologically bracketed by the two assaults on the World Trade Center in 1993 and 2001.
That project’s breadth, however, ultimately seems to overwhelm writer Cyrus Nowrasteh and director David L. Cunningham, whose narrative has strong moments and stylish touches but only begins to coalesce well into the second night. Moreover, the material’s complexity almost requires characters to deliver clunky, expository speeches, unlike the various documentaries covering this terrain.
At its core is O’Neill, the FBI terrorism chief who became convinced that Osama bin Laden posed a formidable danger to the U.S. but, thanks to petty bureaucracy, found few allies. He would eventually leave the FBI and, in a note of tragic irony, become security director for the World Trade Center, where he died on Sept. 11.
O’Neill’s fellow Chicken Little is security adviser Richard Clarke (Stephen Root), who exhibits mounting frustration as President Clinton’s administration zippers problems and the Bush regime assume a maddeningly indifferent posture toward the threat.
“No one’s taking terrorism seriously,” O’Neill huffs at one point. “No one seems to care.”
Another thread features a CIA agent (Donnie Wahlberg) similarly thwarted in his attempts to help Afghanistan’s Northern Alliance, whose charismatic leader, Massoud (Mido Hamada), was targeted for assassination for opposing Al Qaeda.
Not surprisingly, the overall tone is grim, and the fact there’s no suspense regarding the near misses and foiled chances to nail “the Tall One,” as bin Laden is called, isn’t particularly conducive to constructing a thriller.
Initially scheduled for six hours, ABC is airing the project with limited interruption that will translate to about five commercial minutes per hour, or less than a third of the normal load.
There have been several memorable and occasionally haunting productions related to Sept. 11, as well as documentaries such as Court TV’s 9/11 Commission recap “On Native Soil.” Ultimately, those narrower tales offer a clearer picture than this more sweeping view, which crams a decade’s worth of incompetence and overlooked warning signs into one comprehensive package.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:10 pmAnd NONE of that explains why building number 7 dropped in the EXACT SAME FASHION as the towers, HOURS LATER.
So I am to assume this building was UNIQUE too UnB?
This building just happened to collapse from a fire, and drop in a controlled fashion right into its own footprint?
September 4th, 2006 at 4:10 pmOk. Well we agree to disagree. 3 years as a structural engineer in college doesn’t equate to a man who’s been a structural engineer in the field for 38 years, and who works for one of the largest construction firms in DC.
Not what I said. I worked there in college and 3 years AFTER college. Designing towers… And my experience is actually greater if this guy has never designed towers.
Wait – he works for a construction firm, and not a structural engineer? You know that’s not the same, right?
I don’t know for sure mind you, but everything I’ve heard, read, and everything I saw with my own two eyes on that morning tells me that these buildings were scuttled.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
People used to think a solar eclipse meant that their gods were angry with them… I just don’t go on feelings when it comes to these things.
Sure, Bush is responsible for allowing it to happen. He’s not capable of orchestrating it. He couldn’t find oil. In Texas. In the 70s…
September 4th, 2006 at 4:11 pmYou stupid Americans, we did it. Americans are too stupid to have pulled this off. You’re a cowardly stupid, illiterate bunch!
Comment by Jamal
No Jamal you didn’t do anything, but if you keep ranting on that you did you might just get a visit from the men in black..
September 4th, 2006 at 4:11 pmI just don’t go on feelings when it comes to these things.
…
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 4:11 pm
Lets see. I just posted about what I have read, and what I have heard from a 38 year veteren of structural engineering, and you are now claiming I am going on my feelings.
:|
Ok.
I’m done.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:15 pmThis is a paper argueing against the “Official†report of the Towers, if you care to look.
(and you can read it en espanol, Juan! )
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 3:48 pm
This isn’t about me believing the “official report”. It’s about me thinking for myself and based on my education and experience forming my own conclusion no matter how unpopular it is with the occultists around here…
September 4th, 2006 at 4:17 pmWORFEUS
Were the steel beams in direct contact with anything flamable? How good an insulator is concrete anyway?
Comment by Bruce Gorton — September 4, 2006 @ 4:15 pm
I don’t know Bruce, but it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure out that iIF the beam were as hot as Unb is claiming, that SOMEONE, of the thousands of survivors from the buildings would have reported heat from the elevator shafts.
And the people on the 90th floor who were rescued reported no heat below the impact site.
That just does NOT indicate the center support was as hot as UnB claims, particular 50 stories down.
If the planes had hit the 30th floor, then maybe I’d by it.
But this plane was up on the 93rd FLOOR! Almost at the TOP OF THE BUILDING!!!
How does that cause the center support to break 50, 60, 70, 80 or 90 stories DOWN?????
And WHERE WAS THE HEAT??????
NO SURVIVORS REPORT ANY DOWN THERE.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:19 pmThe Aliens control the Christian Fundamentalists!
It is rather odd they call their group the ‘Elohim’..and that EL, Thoht, speaks of spaceships under the Sphinx..Actually I think Satan just told the Christians he was an angel from outerspace [Heaven] =0]
September 4th, 2006 at 4:19 pmA. I am giving you his words filtered through my brother.
Like that telephone game? :)
B. I never said that he said the steel had to melt. He just said that the heat 30 or 40 floors below could have NEVER been hot enough to collapse the center support.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 3:56 pm
Sure, but that wasn’t the scenario there. I’m getting tired of repeating myself… But the steel was compromised enough to fail. The connectors that held the floor system in place were something new and failed – with the entire floor on fire asa result of the spilled jet fuel – creating the monentum… and it went from there.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:22 pmthe occultists around here…
Where Where?
September 4th, 2006 at 4:24 pmOh you mean Jamal the extremst elohim freeper and Aphrodite the moonbat moon goddess?
I knew you did something but I didn’t remember.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 3:58 pm
So if you don’t remember, then don’t accuse me of being dishonest.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:25 pmcome on you sound like Sean Hannity IF you acting like a some kid you will prove something keep try. The reason you keep picking someone name to is because truth will all ways come on aliens or Islamic need 9/11 just you and the American and the real killers of 9/11 will go free and that will be on all of us that live in what was the great place that was what I like to call the old American. Maybe oneday we all can go back to that place that we all loved so much peace and love to all American that are still there wich i hope that there is some of us still out that do not have to act like a kid like the one that dose not have intelligence to say some that will prove me and all of the crazy nut jobs wrong but i know they can’t.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:28 pmYea and if the fire was as hot as you claim then the survivors on the floors just below would have been incinerated. But the survivors tell a vastly DIFFERERNT story than what you are telling us.
Fires are hot. I mean, how does someone in a crisis know the difference between 1400 and 1600 degrees?
The survivors said the fires were out on many floors, and reported no heat in the stairwells beneath the impact floors and the immediate surrounding floors.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 4:00 pm
Okay, buildings are designed with escape routes. The building have stairtowers constructed of concrete (doesn’t burn, has sealed openings and has a four hour minimum fire-rating). Therfore there would be no heat in the stairwells. It’s how they are designed.
The fire only needed to be on one floor – the one with the jet fuel to compromise the clips that hiold the floor sytem in place to start the process. you didn’t need fire on multiple floors. Just one. It’s all it takes…
September 4th, 2006 at 4:29 pmjudging by her rampant GOP worship she would agree with, and she is still trying to tear you down. Maybe she isn’t a conservative, maybe she is just effing loony. Comment by Bruce Gorton — September 4, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
Excellent catch! I think you’re right. As usual :)
September 4th, 2006 at 4:32 pmWhen the jets hit the wtc the big fire ball was the jet fule how much do you think would be leaft.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:33 pmWould whoever is trying to forment a flame war between Worfeus and Unbelievable please go drown themselves in a toilet? Both are normally fairly nice people, so I honestly don’t think they are going around mispelling everything at each other.
That said back to the argument:
Worfeus (The one I am assuming is the real Worfeus): Would the people have really noticed though? I mean, you have a certain amount of adrenaline pumping through you, you are moving as fast as you can and you are in a fair crowd, are you going to notice the heat in a specific area? Particularly the lift shafts?
September 4th, 2006 at 4:34 pmI’m satisfied with the evidence that the towers did not come down as a result of high temperature fires melting the steel structures, but as the result of pre-placed explosives. That raises the question: who placed the explosives in the building?
Is it possible that the explosives were placed in the buildings when they were constructed so that the towers could easily be demolished if needed? The crashing airplanes with the attendant fires might have been insufficient to melt the steel structures but sufficient to ignite the pre-positioned explosives.
The existence of the pre-positioned explosives would have been suppressed because of liability issues and fear of negative publicity: who would want to work or live in a building that was full of explosives?
This would explain how Building 7, which was not hit by any airplanes and which did not have high temperature fires, was demolished at the direction “pull it” by the building’s owner.
Is this theory anywhere near the realm of the possible?
September 4th, 2006 at 4:38 pmOkay, buildings are designed with escape routes. The building have stairtowers constructed of concrete (doesn’t burn, has sealed openings and has a four hour minimum fire-rating). Therfore there would be no heat in the stairwells. It’s how they are designed.
The fire only needed to be on one floor – the one with the jet fuel to compromise the clips that hiold the floor sytem in place to start the process. you didn’t need fire on multiple floors. Just one. It’s all it takes…
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 4:29 pm
Naahhh. Not gonna buy that. The heat would definately have been in the elevator shafts which run through the center of the building. Also even with concrete, a fire hot enough to cause fire treated steel to just sorta “dissolve” as you’d have us believe, would have to be felt throughout the building. Certainly the people on the 90th floor would have felt a 3000 degree fire.
But they didn’t. Why? Because there wasn’t one.
Jet fuel doesn’t burn that hot, and jet fuel burns QUICK.
REAL QUICK.
In fact, all the experts I’ve read say the jet fuel had burned up in MINUTES.
All that was burning was office materials (drywall, paper, desks etc).
By your deduction, all one would have to do to drop the Twin Towers would be to start a fire on the 93rd floor.
By your logic, a fire on the 93rd floor of the Trade Centers would cause the buildings to just collapse, and THATS ridiculous.
Sorry Unb. We agree to disagree.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:38 pmThe agent provocateurs posse has arrived I see. Honestly, you guys, just by being here and trying so hard to derail the topic actually help vindicate this site. If it wasn’t a threat to you or your “obviously correct” viewpoints you’d not be here trolling like crazy. You’d have better more important things to do with your time.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:39 pmSorry to mess in this great discussion:
Under the same situation, both buildings faild because of the same factor – the planes.
Comment by unbelievable
I can agree with that. But as I recalled the WTC were designed to support plane crashes as supposed by his japanese designer. I saw this on History Channel.
So was it the fire or the impact?
How much can a fuel burn? 1400 °C? How much does it take to melt steel? 1500-2000°C? Maybe it just got to the steel got to the austenitic region and became less resistant. That could do it.
My own most important question is: why do we plan to take the buildings down? Why not just ramming them with planes? Besides a controlled demolition would have required a lot of suspicious electricians, cable guys, pizza boys, whatever, roaming the building. Could be but thats difficult. The important thing here is not if the buildings were planned to fall or not, but if the plane hijackings were in fact supported by members of the government. The terrorist acts were the plane crashings, not the buildings falling. There is a lot of suspicions on the whole 9/11 issues. Most important: the “plane” crashing the pentagon. Wheres that plane? Why doesnt the government show the videos of that “plane”? It will be really helpful for them to people look at an actual plane crashing the pentagon. It would inflame the hearts of all pathetic patriots. My guess: They dont show it, cause theres no plane.
And just a remark to Unbelievable. I think of you as a highly intelligent person, but describing yourself as an expert doesnt add too much to the debate; in fact, it makes you look not that smart. Your harsh responses on this subject, as if we are all lunatics cause we doubt “proofs”, seem to me as if you were being personally attacked at your knowledge or your experience. At least I know I dont. It would help a lot to understanding that you put the guard down a little. Peace.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:39 pmComment by mighty aphrodite — September 4, 2006 @ 1:39 pm
Comment by mighty aphrodite — September 4, 2006 @ 3:56 pm
Damn, woman, are you ever true to your word? I thought we were rid of you for the whole day!
September 4th, 2006 at 4:41 pmI don’t know… I think conservatives are just as likely as the rest of us to be watching the Manning Bowl that night. That sounds like it could be a great game. Family values and everything. :)
So I think ABC’s likely to lose big that night. Not sure why they thought it would be a good idea to schedule it across from an NFL opener!
September 4th, 2006 at 4:49 pmopcit,
it’s a smart move, actually. Rednecks, who will be watching football, will simply parrot the Rush Limbaugh talking points about the movie the next day.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:51 pm#447 Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 4:41 pm
It’s still conjecture, which is all that we’re left with. There are absolutely no facts concerning the cause of the collapse other than they were hit by airplanes.
Which is exactly why this administration should be held accountable for the complete lack of any comprehensive investigation.
September 4th, 2006 at 4:52 pmWORFEUS,
You’re nothing but a stinking low life liar. You live in a fantasy world of lies. You might as well belive Aliens did it!
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 4:17 pm
Not me either…
September 4th, 2006 at 4:58 pmYou show that docudrama and I’ll boycott you and your sponsors-period.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:10 pmI wonder if WE THE PEOPLE paid for this propaganda. How will we ever know?
September 4th, 2006 at 5:14 pmIt’s still conjecture, which is all that we’re left with. There are absolutely no facts concerning the cause of the collapse other than they were hit by airplanes.
It’s educated conjecture based on experience. Just like math or gravity… That’s my point. That I’m not just speculating, but giving my professional opinion. HUGE difference….
Which is exactly why this administration should be held accountable for the complete lack of any comprehensive investigation.
Comment by AnAmerican — September 4, 2006 @ 4:52 pm
No argument from me.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:23 pmarghhh….
doesn’t like ‘less than’ signs…
anyway, both columns never achieved temps exceeding 250 degrees celsius.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:23 pmOk, so, your facts have become opinions.
I’ll agree with that.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:27 pm#478
2 core columns in the impact area never received temperatures exceeding 250 degrees celsius
Which facts are you using?
September 4th, 2006 at 5:37 pmThis is a classic example of how history is rewriten. It is up to us to educate ourselves for the GOP will only distort then blame.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:38 pmABC network is a propoganda machine for the Republican party. I refuse to listen to any of its programing ever again!!!!!!!!
September 4th, 2006 at 5:39 pmUn and all. Thanks for the debate, it has been good to see all sides of the picture today.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:42 pmI am not going to watch it, so I won’t know who the advertisers are.
All I can say, is if anyone wants to post a list of those companies advertising, I’ll email them to notify them of my personal boycott of their products.
Peace all, spending the day with my family!
Jeebus,
What a frickin’ shit storm.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:49 pmYou seem to be missing that I’m the one getting attacked.
Comment by unbelievable
IMHO, nobody attacked you. WORFEUS was disputing things you said were facts. It is very much likely that we are all wrong and you are right about this matter, but disputing events that require a full objective investigation from the government is not the same as attacking you. And, to say that you are an expert, which it is very likely that you are but has nothing to do with the discussion, can be seen as arrogant (I take this from madashell). And calling you arrogant is still not an attack, but a description of your words.
I hope you catch this as a simple comment from a simple guy. I still like everything you post.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:50 pmSecond WTC Janitor Comes Forward With Eye-Witness Testimony … 4 workshop of the north tower on 9/11, heard a bomb-like explosion, had his hair burned and …
http://www.williambowles.info/911/controlled_demo2.html
How can anyone explain these Janitors getting burned before the airplanes had hit??
September 4th, 2006 at 5:51 pmWhat a frickin’ shit storm.
Comment by Zooey
But I learned a lot. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 5:52 pmBut I learned a lot. :)
Comment by Juan C
Every cloud has a silver lining! :)
September 4th, 2006 at 5:53 pmLater, zoo. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 5:55 pmNonsense. And the fact that you called a column a beam shows that you are not qualified to debate this matter with me as an expert… That was a pretty big faux pas. Like people who call concrete “cementâ€.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 4:47 pm
I’m not an expert in the area, as I told you earlier. But that doesn’t mean I’m not “qualified” as you say. I worked construction for 7 years in my 20’s.
I worked concrete, FOOTINGS AND FOUNDATIONS. I set 4 and 8 foot concrete forms all day long for years. Know what a whaler is? Bet you don’t. I am no expert and I often call things by a name that is incorrect, but that doesnt’ impact my argument in this case one bit.
I don’t buy your story about the burning jet fuel leaking down the center support. It was on fire, and would have burned up in minutes, and I doubt non one would have noticed in the stairwells. Did you LOOK at where the stairwells are in relation to the center support? Where did the fire get air in that shaft?
Besides.
Fire weakens steel TEMPORARILY.
As soon as the fire is out, the steel is tempered and regains and in some case, as in forging, is even harder than before. NOT weaker. Fire only weakens the steel while its burning. Are you trying to tell me that the planes jet fuel made it IN BOTH BUILDING RIGHT TO THE CENTER SUPPORT, and poured down the support, burning until the bulding fell?
I dont’ buy it.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:56 pmWTC janitor (non) story reveals mainstream news complicity in 9/11 coverup … severely burned from fire coming up the shaft from the basement explosion. …
==
Up the Shaft??
On the morning of 9/11 Rodriguez, 44, was huddled together with 14 other people in a sub level 1 basement office, preparing for a day’s work like he did every day for 20 years at the WTC. Without warning, suddenly the group felt a tremendous explosion emanating from somewhere below them in one of the five WTC sub levels.
Not only did the group hear the explosion, all 14 felt the floor tremble and saw the walls crack just seconds before the group heard another distant explosion coming from high above. Although unaware of the cause, Rodriguez later learned the second explosion, occurring seconds after the first basement blast, turned out to be the jetliner strike.
Further evidence of a tremendous basement blast came moments later when a man by the name of Felipe David, burnt on his face, arms and hands, entered the office yelling “explosion, explosion, explosion!”
David had been standing at a nearby sub level 1 freight elevator shaft when he was severely burned from fire coming up the shaft from the basement explosion.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:58 pmSorry to chase you off, Juan! I’ll probably get off this thread anyway. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 5:59 pmI bet we won’t be seeing rodriguez in this ABC fake-o-drama either…
September 4th, 2006 at 5:59 pmwell, i find you pretty “believable.” and i’m a certified tinfoil hat conspiracy theorist.
someone above pointed out the attacks was about the planes hitting the buildings, not the buildings collapse. this fits nicely with my theory, which is that the administration was more than just incompetent. but incompetent they were. according to my layers of tinfoil, they knew the towers were designed to withstand being hit by jets. they certainly knew it was a possibility, condi’s later statements notwithstanding.
now, i think they (buth the neocons and al qaeda) were surprised at the total destruction. like a little kid with a cherry bomb who blows off his own fingers. the neos figured they would take advantage of their “good luck” and go for broke – al qaeda kinda went “o, shit! we’re in trouble now!”
then bush really screwed things up in so many ways that al qaeda actually came out ahead.
i’m no expert in engineering, but in logic. if a then b.
September 4th, 2006 at 5:59 pmAnd are you trying to tell me that the little bit of Jet fuel, found its way to the center beam INSTEAD of exploding on impact like many experts say it did. In fact, we all SAW it explode. The plane never made it to the center of the building.
I can’t see how the fuel that ALREADY BLEW UP, made its way across the floors and into a shaft and found enough air to dribble 90 stories down, and cover 90 stories of the column in a fire hot enough to weaken that support.
I doubt that a team of engineers could have pumped enough burning jet fuel into the shaft to burn for more than a couple of seconds, even if the plane had been carrying enough jet fuel to blow up, and STILL have enough left to find its way into the shaft and cover 90 stories of steel in a practically airless environment.
Its a stretch I can’t make.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:02 pm“The following dramatization…has composite and representative characters and incidents, and time compressions have been used for dramatic purposes.â€
the character representing bill clinton is actually a composite of paul wolfowitz, don rumsfeld and dick cheney. time has been compressed from the period of 1993 – 2001 into the five minutes when the clinton character decides the world is better off with a clear threat like bin laden.
fiction is a wonderful thing.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:03 pmAnd that’s where the steel weakened – at the point of the fire!
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 5:14 pm
So now you’re saying the fire was only on the 93rd floor and above (which I agree with) and that THAT was enough to cause the buildings center supports to collapse?
So why do we need demolition experts to blow up skyscrapers?
All they have to do is smuggle a few hundred gallons of jet fuel up to the TOP of the building, light a fire, and the ENTIRE THING WILL COLLAPSE.
After all, you are not saying this happened once, but THREE TIMES!.
We are to believe that a fire on the top of the trade centers caused the center support to collapse, not once, BUT TWICE, within minutes of each other, in the exact same way?
And then building number 7 just happened to do the exact same thing, even though it never even got hit?
Gimme a break.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:06 pm“Pull the building”ime has been compressed from the period of 1993 – 2001 into the five minutes when the clinton character decides the world is better off with a clear threat like bin laden.
fiction is a wonderful thing.
And so is reality
“Ya know I dont really care where Osama is” -GWB
September 4th, 2006 at 6:08 pmNo, you people are attacking my professinal opinion as some uneducated belief.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 5:28 pm
I’m not. I totally accept you are an architect. I just don’t accept your position.
Than again I am not a professional theologian either, but I disagree with many of the experts on certain facts of the life of Christ. Doesn’t mean I’m right or they’re wrong, but asserting because I am not trained in the field that my argument is without merit, is incorrect too.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:10 pmWe are to believe that a fire on the top of the trade centers caused the center support to collapse, not once, BUT TWICE, within minutes of each other, in the exact same way?
well, to be fair, the fire did occur at about the same time as a pretty powerful impact.
i wonder what percentage of buildings of that general size and construction which were hit by commercial airliners collapsed, and what percentage have remained standing?
out of intellectual curiosity, you understand.
see, i can easily accept that the administration was complicit in the 9/11 tragedy. i just don’t know why they would have brought down #7.
of course, i don’t know why that photographer added smoke to burning lebenon either. sometimes its ok to leave horrible enough alone.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:11 pmman am i pissed.
a couple of days ago i was watching tv over here (an extreme rarity), and what do i see? a promo for this very program, advertised as “the true story of the lead-up to september 11. why didn’t they catch bin laden?”
as if australians going batshit crazy over the jonbenet ramsay thing wasn’t repulsing enough. and of course now we’ve got crocodile hunter 24/7 also.
television has officially outlasted its usefulness.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:12 pmThe photographer added smoke to burning Lebanon in order to sell the photo.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:14 pmThe photographer added smoke to burning Lebanon in order to sell the photo.
Comment by John Henry Could Hammer
well, sure, but did he try to sell it as is first? did a potential buyer say, ‘gee, if there were only a little more destruction in evidence ….’
September 4th, 2006 at 6:19 pm“Watch the movie! Then let’s talk. If you haven’t seen the movie with your very own eyes – don’t castigate the movie out of ignorance.†and “1) This is not a documentary†? Okayyy . . . how about “don’t watch this movie – it will increase your ignorance”. Why would anyone watch the movie, which is not a documentary, as a conditon of carrying on a critique of it? It’s fiction, as half-admitted, and we don’t need more confusion and lies around national events; we have more than enough of that already. Republicans, and now Cyrus Nowrasteh, assume the public is stupid and can be fed (and will accept as truth) any trash and disinformation they put over the air waves. This is the real depths, and carrying this show to air is a really bad business decision. ABC = not to be trusted; they position faux documentaries to pass as “close enough” to the real thing.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:31 pmThe docudrama only helps to spread misleading data because it is not the full story. A half truth is as bad as a lie.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:36 pmhis should read This.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:40 pmHey I don’t have any candle will popsicles suffice??
September 4th, 2006 at 6:41 pmDammit! That pisses me off! I just posted a comment, and it disappeared before my eyes.
I am not Santo, TP, so stop deleting me!
I take my meds everyday, whether I need to or not! And I didn’t even use the f-word this time!
September 4th, 2006 at 6:42 pmI could have sworn I saw post numbers up to 333 a second ago,,weird.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:43 pmNOTE: There were two major problems with this thread:
1. Someone was impersonating other users. That person has been banned.
2. There was extensive discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theories. This is not allowed on ThinkProgress. If you want to do it, go somewhere else. If people continue to do so, they will be banned.
We need a space where we can have substantive discussions on issues. If you see violations of the rules, please email us immediately.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:43 pmThey must be cleaning up the thread…
September 4th, 2006 at 6:43 pmYou did, TS, it pisses me off. They delete f*cking Santo, but then they delete a lot of commenters who haven’t done anything wrong.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:45 pmThere was extensive discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theories. This is not allowed on ThinkProgress. If you want to do it, go somewhere else. If people continue to do so, they will be banned.
Comment by Judd — September 4, 2006 @ 6:43 pm
Not allowed?
This is what you call progress?
Perhaps I have overrated this blog.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:48 pmJudd,
If you put up a thread even hinting at 9/11, you’re going to get conspiracy people. You must know that. Personally, I don’t mind them that much. Santo is another story. I can spot Santo within two or three comments, should one of us email you then, or wait for admin to notice?
September 4th, 2006 at 6:48 pmIf you see violations of the rules, please email us immediately.
Comment by Judd — September 4, 2006 @ 6:43 pm
Wonder who “emailed you” this time?
September 4th, 2006 at 6:48 pmOk guys, I’m history.
I don’t consider myself a “conspiracy theorist” just because I don’t buy the official story on 911.
I’ve had all the censoring I can take for one lifetime, so I guess I’ll see you folks in the funny papers.
Chow
September 4th, 2006 at 6:51 pmPosts are vanishing now and then. I hope the TP crew is trying to find the cause. Most of the time it hits me, I get the “SPAM” message. That usually occurs when I post a link to radical sites like Sesame Street.com. More recently, it seems to happen with no links but with references to the Easter Bunny.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:51 pmok, let’s not talk about it anymore. let’s not talk about how we still don’t understand the most important event in recent american history, and how the answers are not forthcoming.
let’s not talk about taking 411 days to name a commission to investigate the event — and naming henry kissinger, a man wanted for war crimes, as the head commissioner.
let’s not talk about how understanding what happened that day is crucial to understanding how and why we fight the war on terror.
let’s not talk about it.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:53 pm#308 – Judd,
September 4th, 2006 at 6:56 pmGo for the juglar!
i’ll bet you think you’re open-minded, judd.
you’re a real visionary. i seem to recall you posting a thread recently that compared 9/11 doubters to michelle malkin. it was a master stroke of passive aggressivism.
it was also very progressive and showed a lot of class, judd. you’re my hero.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:57 pmI’ve had all the censoring I can take for one lifetime, so I guess I’ll see you folks in the funny papers.
Comment by WORFEUS
I hope to see you back again, Worfeus. Your comments are valuable to us.
September 4th, 2006 at 6:57 pmPlease boycott the local/national advertisers of this program.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:03 pmDixie (currently post #274) Thanks.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:05 pmI hope to see you back again, Worfeus.
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 6:57 pm
And I hope to see you in a strapless negligee soon.
I’ll be around Zooey.
I just have to take the bench for a while. Normally I support TP’s ideals, but “forbidden topics” just doesn’t sit well with me. Particularly that one.
Somethings wrong with that.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:11 pmI’m curious about casting for this movie, as I don’t watch TV much and haven’t seen any promos. Did Disney cast Goofey as President Bush? Donald Duck would make a great VP Cheney.
And in cooperation with WB, Elmer Fudd is Donald Rumsfeld, hunting down that wascally wabbit Osama bugs Bunny.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:11 pmHey, Zooey,
See why I said what I said to Judd?
I was probably the first to email TP about the problem; it actually said “BIG PROBLEMS”.
He came in and deleted the offensive posts. Bravo! Thank-you!
That should be it. We all go on our merry ways.
But No. (get the wheelbarrow…)
He has to make some stupid “If You Talk About 9-11 in a Way I Don’t Like, I’ll Ban You.”
Gee. Didn’t see that in the terms of use!
What’s next?
“If You Talk About Ned Lamont and How Lieberman is a D*ick, I’ll Ban You.” ?
Judd, grow up.
If you don’t like monitoring your posts or getting rid of trolls, then don’t post. Period.
If you don’t like us talking about 9-11, don’t post on it.
Simple.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:17 pmAnd by the way Zooey, one more thing.
Doesn’t anyone find it just a little odd that Judd came into a thread which is about ABC censoring speech in a blog, because they didn’t like it, and censored the thread?
Doesn’t it strike anyone as just a little hypocritical to censor bloggers discussion in a thread that is ABOUT censoring bloggers discussion in a thread?
:|
September 4th, 2006 at 7:20 pmUh did anyone ever find that 3 Trillon Dollars that Don Rumsfeld announced was missing from the Pentagon on uh 9/10/01? USA! USA! USA! USA!
September 4th, 2006 at 7:20 pmI hope to see you back again, Worfeus.
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 6:57 pm
And I hope to see you in a strapless negligee soon.
I’ll be around Zooey.
I just have to take the bench for a while. Normally I support TP’s ideals, but “forbidden topics†just doesn’t sit well with me. Particularly that one.
Somethings wrong with that.
Comment by WORFEUS
First of all,….Damn!
Second, then don’t take it! Fight for your rights! This is exactly what is happening in America right now!
Don’t let Judd take away your right to post your opinions!
September 4th, 2006 at 7:20 pmNormally I support TP’s ideals, but “forbidden topics†just doesn’t sit well with me. Particularly that one.
Somethings wrong with that.
here, here!
seriously, yesterday in the dole thread we had king g talking about how we’re all descended from space aliens and there was a nuclear war on earth 10,000 years ago.
completely off-topic, but that stands. i wonder what the neighbors will think?
but this one topic is voodoo. it’s as if even asking ‘what if our government could do something like that’ is so unnerving to tp admin people that they refuse to even talk about it.
but let’s face it, they’re establishment people. they want to work their way up the ranks. they don’t want to know if the establishment is criminal. it might make them feel bad.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:21 pmDo 911 conspiracies include the concerted effort to undertake a minimalist approach to it’s investigation?
September 4th, 2006 at 7:21 pmAnother example that the tide has turned? That the propaganda has grown flaccid? Let’s hope.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:23 pmDon’t let Judd take away your right to post your opinions!
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 7:20 pm
Its his blog. He can do what he likes with it. I am just a guest here.
But I just don’t get the censoring the 911 stuff. Seems like NO one wants to talk about it which makes me think people are AFRAID to talk about it.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:23 pmget lost trueblue. find another blog if you don’t like the rules. you’re a troll in disguise anyway
Comment by get lost neocon — September 4, 2006 @ 7:20 pm
Oh, that’s cute. A new troll right away telling my I’m a troll!
You’re very stupid, but nice try.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:24 pmDoesn’t it strike anyone as just a little hypocritical to censor bloggers discussion in a thread that is ABOUT censoring bloggers discussion in a thread?
well, if worfeus hasn’t struck at the heart of judd’s hypocrisy. as i mentioned, the malkin thing was a weak attempt to take a jab, but this exempifies double standard.
what about it judd? i’m sure you have a valid explanation…
September 4th, 2006 at 7:27 pmWell, Worfeus,
September 4th, 2006 at 7:29 pmI suppose we can go to Nico’s or Amanda’s or Faiz’s threads.
They never admonish us like 5 year olds.
Apparently, ABC is no longer interested in hosting a discussion about Path to 9/11.
Posted by Judd at 9:52 am
Yes. And apparently TP is no longer interested in hosting a discussion about the actual events of 911.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:31 pmOooohhhh!
Good One! ;)
Don’t worry, Worfeus, I’m saving every post in case something should happen to them.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:34 pmBoycott all advertisers of this farce.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:36 pmAt the end of the day, irrespective of what ‘docudramas’ show the facts are:
* Clinton was not president at the time, irrespective of what he did or did not do during his presidency.
* Bush was the president at the time, and was given ample warning of a looming threat.
* Bush was the president at the time, charged with being the leader of the nation.
* Bush had the power to prevent the occurance of 9/11 during his Presidency and did not.
Thats all there is to it.
=my2c
BC
September 4th, 2006 at 7:37 pmPosting a thread about a “re-enactment” of 9/11 and forbidding conspiracy talk, is like starting a thread announcing, “Cats’ Greatest Enemy-” and not allowing debate on dogs.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:39 pmOver at Hufpo they are calling it the “fake-u-drama” of the year. No doubt it will be straight fiction – not even creative fiction with a decent plot. Blaming the guy before you for YOUR mistakes just isn’t going to cut it. It’s incredible that ABC would take such a chance at losing their viewers by sponsoring this drivel and continuation of this ridiculous “blame game” and “lack of personal accountability” which this administration engenders. Shame on you,ABC! That’s the last time I’ll watch your channel….unless I need a good propaganda machine.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:40 pm[...] Update II: Media Matters debunks right wing claims about 9/11 being spread in anticipation of this miniseries. More at Think Progress. Written by Ron ChusidLast 5 posts by Ron ChusidRepublicans Again Trying To Use Fear For Politcal GainKrugman Half Right on Health Care TodayResponding to Holocaust DenialGeorge Bush’s Legacy on Nuclear WeaponsRumors About Hillary Clinton [...]
September 4th, 2006 at 7:44 pmSomething else: as I’ve attempted to post refutations on the right-wing blogs, strangely, a lot of them seem to have shut down their comments.
After registering on several today (6), none have allowed me to actually log in and post Americablog’s refutation of this anti-Clinton crap. Has anyone else today had the same experience on winger blogs? The one listed as a pingback up-thread is one such.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:49 pmIMHO, nobody attacked you.
Comment by Juan C — September 4, 2006 @ 5:50 pm
I disagree. They’ve been at it since I first spoke up several months ago, like I am not entitled to express the holes in the hypotheses. I’ve been called names, both called and assumed to be a liar, among other things. That’s attacking. Not violently, but certainly with some verbal force. And always in groups.
September 4th, 2006 at 7:50 pmsorry if you felt assaulted unbelievable.
however, i don’t believe there is a concrete “hypotheses” as you suggest. just a lot of people who think we haven’t yet had a full explanation…
and that’s all i have to say about it!
September 4th, 2006 at 7:53 pmGimme a break.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 6:06 pm
No, you give me a break. You’re spouting a lot of stuff you’ve heard other people say (the argument NEVER changes from those of you who buy it), and not even trying to understand what I’m telling you.
Where else do you expect the fire to be except the point where the planes crashed? It’s why the buildings both failed at those points. It’s obvious from the video tape of the their collapse that they began to fail at the points of impact. Sheesh… How is this not obvious to someone so otherwise logical? It’s pure logic.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:01 pmJudd said:
2. There was extensive discussion of 9/11 conspiracy theories. This is not allowed on ThinkProgress. If you want to do it, go somewhere else.
and then:
We need a space where we can have substantive discussions on issues.
Isnt that just a contradiction?
September 4th, 2006 at 8:02 pmThere still going to Air the “docu-drama”, so the rest of the proud and ignorant can be fed. BARF
September 4th, 2006 at 8:03 pmA lot of people don’t buy that the earth is flat either.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 7:57 pm
Thats because its round.
:|
September 4th, 2006 at 8:04 pmbut asserting because I am not trained in the field that my argument is without merit, is incorrect too.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 6:10 pm
I’m asserting an analogy that because you have not gone to medical school and practiced as a heart surgery – your viewpoint on the aspects of heart surgery does not trumph or invalidate that of a practicing heart surgeon. Same thing here.
Religion is just a bunch of make-believe stories. I would never use that as a comparable analogy.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:05 pmOk, I’m just being silly now. I know you meant to say that a lot of people don’t buy that the earth is round.
But just like you jumped on me for using beam when I should have said column, (I also say jack when I should say stud), I figured I’d mess with you on that one.
As for calling it your story? I guess I will call it your professional opinion, but I still disagree with it. You can get mad all you want, but I never attacked you, called you any names or implied you were stupid (as you did me). I have read BOTH arguments, from BOTH sides, and for me the jury is still out. Period.
Anyway we have to stop talking about it.
Its VERBOTEN!
September 4th, 2006 at 8:06 pmI meant their…
September 4th, 2006 at 8:07 pmyikes… they’re
September 4th, 2006 at 8:08 pmyour viewpoint on the aspects of heart surgery does not trumph or invalidate that of a practicing heart surgeon. Same thing here.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:05 pm
No its not. By your own admission you’re NOT a “practicing structural engineer”.
You USED to be an architect. Now you teach school. In college you assisted your professor with structural engineering. At least thats what you told us.
So comparing yourself to a practicing structural engineer when you are in reality a high school teacher is bogus. I have spoken with structural engineers who ARE “practicing” and the ones I have spoken to disagree with you.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:09 pmAnyway we have to stop talking about it.
Comment by WORFEUS
Oh, please go on. Its interesting! I have some chips here. But, lets do this: instead of 9/11 we say Roger Rabbit…so Judd wont find out. Now who the hell framed the public opinion about the building that was the house of Roger Rabbit?
September 4th, 2006 at 8:11 pmThank you, Juan!
That is what’s got my all pissed!
People posting as others is against use. I emailed as soon asI saw it, and asked if Worfeus had done the same since he kept getting ‘trolled.’
When he (Judd) deleted posts and banned said troll, I was going to give him a big,”Yeah! Thank you!” post –
then I see that crap again. (the last time he posted on 9-11, it turned to the same discussion.He tried to stop us from talking about it then, as well… Although he never threatened to ban anyone then.)
Posting what he doesn’t want us to talk about related totally to the thread is not covered in the Terms of Use.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:12 pmComment #46 should be removed
September 4th, 2006 at 8:14 pmsorry if you felt assaulted unbelievable.
Oddly, not by the person offering condolences… Thanks Rex, I appreciate that. But the reality is that I do get attacked for having a professional opinion about an area of my career… How surreal from TP posters…
however, i don’t believe there is a concrete “hypotheses†as you suggest. just a lot of people who think we haven’t yet had a full explanation…
It’s not about believing. It’s about examining the realities of building design and then applying knowns (from experience) to what happened. It’s mostly likely that the towers fell due to the events of the day, and nothing more. Occum’s Razor…
and that’s all i have to say about it!
Comment by progressaurus rex — September 4, 2006 @ 7:53 pm
Until the next time? :)
September 4th, 2006 at 8:15 pmPosting what he doesn’t want us to talk about related totally to the thread is not covered in the Terms of Use.
Comment by trueblue
I dont understand their fear or their disliking on an issue so important. TripMasterMonkey is always being deleted for posting interesting stuff about this and Israel vs Lebanon conflict. The site should be called: Think Like Judd.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:16 pmA lot of people don’t buy that the earth is NOT flat either.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:17 pmComment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 7:57 pm
I dont understand their fear or their disliking on an issue so important. TripMasterMonkey is always being deleted for posting interesting stuff about this and Israel vs Lebanon conflict. The site should be called: Think Like Judd.
Comment by Juan C —
And Down With Calderon!!! :)
September 4th, 2006 at 8:21 pm(it seems we’re the rebels here, Juan!)
You assumed I was lying or misleading about my experience.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:20 pm
No I didn’t.
Not for one second did I even consider you were lying or misleading.
I take everything you tell me at face value.
You have never given me any reason to think you are dishonest.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:24 pm(it seems we’re the rebels here, Juan!)
Comment by trueblue
And the romantics, true. Without that there is not rebelion possible. Yeah, Calderon is another puppet from big companies. But I want him to rule Mexico, so people understand their stupidity. :(
September 4th, 2006 at 8:25 pmNo its not. By your own admission you’re NOT a “practicing structural engineerâ€.
I don’t have to be anymore. The fact that I was a practicing building designer with education and experience in both structural engineering and architecture is enough.
You USED to be an architect. Now you teach school. In college you assisted your professor with structural engineering. At least thats what you told us.
No Worfeus. That’s not what I said. I worked for a structural engineering firm that designed towers both in college and 3 years after. I’m beginning to get why you can’t keep what else I’ve said today straight. You aren’t actually listening to what I’m saying. I think you like arguing too much…
Actually, I still am an architect. I’m just not currently building anything. It doesn’t instantly revoke my experience and make me uncredible. I was hired to teach it after all…
So comparing yourself to a practicing structural engineer when you are in reality a high school teacher is bogus.
No, saying that is bogus. Shame on you for insulting teachers. That’s really beneath you.
I have spoken with structural engineers who ARE “practicing†and the ones I have spoken to disagree with you.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 8:09 pm
You said it was one. Now it’s several? Well, I know more practicing structural engineers and they disagree with your so-called engineers. Ooooohh… You gonna quote Jebus now?
That’s all you’ve got left? This truly is pointless.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:28 pmA lot of people don’t buy that the earth is NOT flat either.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 7:57 pm
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:17 pm
I knew what you “meant”.
Just like you knew what I meant when I said beam when I should’ve said column.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:28 pmYou said it was one. Now it’s several?
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:28 pm
I “mentioned” the chief structural engineer at the company my brother works for.
I never said he was the ONLY structural engineer I knew.
My father and his brothers were all in construction and I work in a security related field so I am in large buildings all the time and I know plenty of engineers.
Now you’re implying I am lying and you’re right, this is pointless.
Why can’t we just agree to disagree like I said 4 hours ago?
September 4th, 2006 at 8:31 pm*blushing*, Juan!
September 4th, 2006 at 8:31 pmShame on you for insulting teachers. That’s really beneath you.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:28 pm
What?
What are you on drugs?
Just WHERE did I insult teachers?
Tell you what. Why don’ t you just tell me to f off, cause its clear thats where you want to go with this.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:34 pmunbelieveable’s constant reassertion of her on bona fides…that is, close to zero.
You can’t debate me on merits either so you ad hominem attack? That’s mature.
Like you’d know? What gives youthe credentials to judge? I’m guessing that’s the real zero here.
Both points are apocryphal and fallacious (appeal to authority). Rather than try to play unbelieveable’s game, we’d be better off dismissing all such appeals., and proceeding on the strength of facts, evidence, and the immutable laws of physics.
No, TMM, I’m not appealing to authority. Madashell posted that list of scholars she listes to. My posts are my own words from my own experience.
It’s not just physics or theories. Your lack of familiarity with statics only validates that you can’t argue on merits, so you jump in and attack me. How brave.
Of course, Judd has once again lowered the boom on 9/11 conspiracy theory discussions (this time in a 9/11 thread, of all places), so this advice is beside the point, but it still needed to be said.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — September 4, 2006 @ 8:19 pm
There’s a reason he’s deleting ya’ll point of view and not mine. I’m NOT the one posing conspiracy. Just facts, and then adding them up logically. Try it. Without the insults. I bet you can’t.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:34 pmYou mean Ockhams razor? Sir William of Ockham?
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 8:22 pm
Occum’s Razor, yes. The idea that one set of circumstances is enough – you don’t need two sets to accomplish the same task.
My view is simplier. Unless you’re now saying that the planes were a mirage or Photoshopped in real-time?
September 4th, 2006 at 8:37 pmThere’s a reason he’s deleting ya’ll point of view and not mine.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:34 pm
Of that we can be sure.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:37 pmOh my, there’s quite the rebellion going on here.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:38 pmOccum’s Razor, yes.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:37 pm
No.
Its Ockham’s Razor. Sir William of Ockham.
That is the correct spelling of his name. It can also be spelled Occam’s Razor, but I’ve never seen it spelled Occum.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:39 pmJuan C sez:
Thanks for the props, Juan. It’s hard to know if you’re making an impact or not when your posts dissappear like snowflakes in July.
One interesting thing I’ve noticed is that posts that discuss 9/11 conspiracy theories aren’t all automatically deleted. If said post contains hard information supporting said theories, however, it is deleted almost immediately. Likewise, if a post supporting conspiracy theories contains informative links, it is not long for the thread.
(Intriguing aside…for a while, if any of my posts contained three ‘W’s in a row, it tripped the spam filter. Makes it kinda hard to back up your arguments if you’re not allowed to post links, doesn’t it?)
Another interesting thing I’ve noticed is that posts that oppose conspiracy theories are allowed to stand, no questions asked.
Given this pattern, it doesn’t seem that Judd’s aim is to prevent discussion of conspiracy theories as much as it is to prevent balanced discussion of said theories…an aim made startlingly clear by his earlier comparison of conspiracy theorists to Michelle Malkin’s hateful rantings, and his subsequent quashing of those of us who attempted to defend ourselves from the childish and unwarranted slur.
At the end of the day, the questions have still gone unanswered, and every time Judd makes a move to further his clandestine agenda, he only succeeds in making his agenda less clandestine.
(I wonder how long this post will be allowed to stand…)
September 4th, 2006 at 8:39 pmWhy can’t we just agree to disagree like I said 4 hours ago?
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 8:31 pm
Because we both have to have the last word? :)
September 4th, 2006 at 8:40 pm*blushing*, Juan!
Comment by trueblue
There is no rebeldy without romanticism. Dont you agree? I mean romance for a change, for a better world…you know ;)
September 4th, 2006 at 8:40 pmMy view is simplier.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:37 pm
Or maybe just simple?
September 4th, 2006 at 8:40 pmBecause we both have to have the last word? :)
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
Ok. Thats true.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:41 pmOnce again, if you want physics:
September 4th, 2006 at 8:41 pmhttp://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
I’ll give it to you.
You get the last word.
Say your dirties.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:41 pm*blushing*, Juan!
Comment by trueblue
There is no rebeldy without romanticism. Dont you agree? I mean romance for a change, for a better world…you know ;)
Comment by Juan C — September 4, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
100%. I know what you’re trying to say, and I agree.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:42 pmTell you what. Why don’ t you just tell me to f off, cause its clear thats where you want to go with this.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 8:34 pm
No, I just want you to stop insulting me. I expect it from the trolls. From you it’s frustrating because you’re not listening to me at all. You’re just dismissing what I’m saying without actually considering it.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:42 pmThere is no rebeldy without romanticism. Dont you agree? I mean romance for a change, for a better world…you know ;)
Comment by Juan C
Like V says in V for Vendetta, “What’s a revolution without dancing?”
September 4th, 2006 at 8:44 pmFine Occam… See, I told you that you just like to argue.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:44 pmLike V says in V for Vendetta, “What’s a revolution without dancing?â€
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 8:44 pm
V for Vendetta was fantastic! What a great movie.
I never liked Natalie Portman till V came out.
What a great movie.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:47 pmOr maybe just simple?
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 8:40 pm
Architecture is one of the hardest degrees to earn (only 1% who start the program ever graduate – as opposed to something like 20-30% for the rest of college programs). I’ve never met a simple architect as a result. So, no, not likely.
More likely that you guys just don’t understand because you either don’t want to, or you’re not hearing me.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:48 pmSorry, Unbelievable,
I have to disagree with you a little bit here.
You are very much on the defensive. It’s evident by your posts.
Worfeus just keeps asking questions, and does not want to take your word as law.
That’s it.
You want him to say you’re right.
He doesn’t want to say it.
**Clash**
Just agree to disagree on it, and that’s that.
my 2 cents on the arguement…….
Please let’s all be friends….
September 4th, 2006 at 8:48 pmHint Unb.
Simple was a joke.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:49 pmahhhem.
The earth is flat. Space is spherical.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:49 pmOnce again, if you want physics:
http://www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 8:41 pm
Once again – it’s Statics. Here’s the lay-man version:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Statics
September 4th, 2006 at 8:49 pmHi Worfeus,
Rather interesting comments above…glad you’e not gone.
I agree, great movie. I want to be Natalie Portman in my next lifetime…even if I have to go around bald.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:50 pmIt’s evident by your posts.
Worfeus just keeps asking questions, and does not want to take your word as law.
That’s it.
You want him to say you’re right.
He doesn’t want to say it.
**Clash**
Just agree to disagree on it, and that’s that.
my 2 cents on the arguement…….
Please let’s all be friends….
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 8:48 pm
She said it right.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:50 pmnow this is what bothers me about this issue — the contentiousness. c’mon, let’s be civil. like we know we can.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:50 pmSay your dirties.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 8:41 pm
Have a good evening.
That dirty enough for you?
September 4th, 2006 at 8:51 pmI agree, great movie. I want to be Natalie Portman in my next lifetime…even if I have to go around bald.
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 8:50 pm
Don’t say that. Be who you are. Like I said I never liked her BEFORE V.
Sure shes kinda pretty, but she seemed like nothing. Another dumbass Brittany Spears or something. (Hint: I wouldn’t touch Brittany with Exley’s dick).
Then I saw V and wow. She’s got something. Some vision. She took it to the character and that got my attention. I will look to see what she does next.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:53 pmComment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 6:57 pm
And I hope to see you in a strapless negligee soon.
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 7:20 pm
I’ll bet that’ll be another of Zooey’s posts that gets deleted.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:53 pmThat dirty enough for you?
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:51 pm
No.
Try harder.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:53 pmOOps. Sorry. Everyone was friendly once I hit enter.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:54 pmFine Occam… See, I told you that you just like to argue.
Comment by unbelievable —
From Wiki:
Occam’s razor (also spelled Ockham’s razor and “Okham’s Razor”)
When is this p*ss fight going to end?
September 4th, 2006 at 8:57 pmI’ll bet that’ll be another of Zooey’s posts that gets deleted.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
I haven’t used the f-word once today! I am totally innocent…pretty much, anyway…
September 4th, 2006 at 8:58 pmYou’re late Barfly.
You just missed it.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:58 pmYou are very much on the defensive. It’s evident by your
posts.
I have five or six people attacking me. That is the defensive position.
Worfeus just keeps asking questions, and does not want to take your word as law.
It’s not my word as law that I’m asking him to take. I’ve given context and facts that he can go study and analyze – but instead of doing that, he’s just bombarding me with emails
That’s it. You want him to say you’re right. He doesn’t want to say it. **Clash**
No, I want him to consider what I’m saying. He’s not doing that, just insulting me, and that’s the issue.
Just agree to disagree on it, and that’s that.
Why?
my 2 cents on the arguement…….
Please let’s all be friends….
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 8:48 pm
I’m not girly. I don’t need for everyone to like me. And I have no problems standing up for what I believe in.
It’s always a knock to Feminism when I get called out for being assertive and confident by other women who then say NOTHING to the man with whom I’m arguing. I didn’t expect that from you true.
Worfeus and I will hold no grudge. We argue sometimes. I’m just trying to explain to him that I’m frustrated because he’s dismissing what I’m saying without either hearing me or considering what I’m saying. He’s being flip. And from my friends, that is frustrating.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:58 pmunbelieveable sez:
Pointing out your logical fallacies is not a personal attack, unbelieveable. Your attempt to frame it as such and then holler ‘ad homenim’ is beneath you.
And right back to the appeal to authority. At least you’re consistent.
Well, then, by all means, instruct us poor mortals. After all, you are a teacher, right? (Hint: Repeating your credentials over and over and calling us too stupid, ignorant, and/or uneducated does not qualify as ‘teaching’).
Actually, the ‘official version of events’ is itself a conspiracy theory, so your claim is invalid.
I have, but Judd deletes my posts whenever they contain corroborating evidence.
I’m not the one being insulting here, unb. Scroll up. If you want to curtail the amount of insults in this thread, your best move would to be to stop typing.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:58 pmI am totally innocent…pretty much, anyway…
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 8:58 pm
Thats easy enough to fix.
September 4th, 2006 at 8:59 pm(Hint: I wouldn’t touch Brittany with Exley’s dick).
Funniest post of the night!!!!!
Comment by trueblue
That is a winner.
Worfeus, Exley owes you…
September 4th, 2006 at 8:59 pmSimple was a joke.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 8:49 pm
Without a :) it sounds serious…
September 4th, 2006 at 9:00 pmAnd I hope to see you in a strapless negligee soon.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:00 pmComment by trueblue
So, after, a lengthy discussion you want to dress WORFEUS with a negligee?
He’s being flip.
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 8:58 pm
Well I didn’t want to be a flop.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:02 pmYou keep posting statics as if it was the answer behind all this.
Comment by Juan C — September 4, 2006 @ 8:50 pm
Nope. Just trying to point out that it’s a big part of this that keeps getting dismissed.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:03 pmI haven’t used the f-word once today! I am totally innocent…pretty much, anyway…
Comment by Zooey
uumpgh..ugh…uummmpfhhhhh….
BWWWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!
September 4th, 2006 at 9:04 pmThats easy enough to fix.
Comment by WORFEUS
You seem fairly confident about that…
September 4th, 2006 at 9:05 pmAnd I hope to see you in a strapless negligee soon.
Comment by trueblue
So, after, a lengthy discussion you want to dress WORFEUS with a negligee?
Comment by Juan C
I didn’t want to see ANYONE in a negligee, Juan!
Read it again! :)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:06 pmWell, it will require some commitment on your part…
September 4th, 2006 at 9:06 pmuumpgh..ugh…uummmpfhhhhh….
BWWWAAAHAHAHAHAHA!
Comment by trueblue
I have used the f-word today? :-)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:07 pmtry again……….
September 4th, 2006 at 9:08 pmThats easy enough to fix.
Comment by WORFEUS
You seem fairly confident about that…
Comment by Zooey —
Well, it will require some commitment on your part…
Comment by WORFEUS
Why do I hear “Barry White” music in the background all of a sudden?
September 4th, 2006 at 9:10 pmWorfeus:
I’ve been checking in now and then, while making dinner. How about my earlier point? Have you tried to post on any ‘winger sites today and been denied access? It’s like they’ve decided to look the other way instead of debating. They’ve stuck fingers in their collective ears, hoping no one will notice the movie has the same sh*it content as a Halliburger.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:10 pmHint: I wouldn’t touch Brittany with Exley’s dick
Ok, this is where I show how dumb I am. Didnt get it. (I know Brittany and I know Exley…but…)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:11 pmAm I bad? Sorry trueblue, I copied and condensed your post #329. Somehow I missed that you were quoting Worf. So it looked like you wanted to see zooey in a negligee.
mea culpa.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:11 pmPointing out your logical fallacies is not a personal attack, unbelieveable.
But you didn’t. You just insulted me. More than once. And you were patronizing. Point out a fact or argument you posted in response to my statements. Can’t? Hmmm.
Your attempt to frame it as such and then holler ‘ad homenim’ is beneath you.
I did no such thing. I was having an argument with Worfeus and you insulted me, not my argument. I stand by what i said. You appeared, attacked and offered no evidence to the contrary of the dicussison.
And right back to the appeal to authority. At least you’re consistent.
Right back to dodging the question I see. Wasn’t an appeal to authority. Was a request for qualification. You have one?
Well, then, by all means, instruct us poor mortals.
Don’t be a jerk. Statics comes right after you’ve taken two semesters of calculus and two of physics for a reason. You can’t teach it in a blog. But, here’s a link to an online tutorial that will in several steps:
http://www.ent.ohiou.edu/~statics/
After all, you are a teacher, right? (Hint: Repeating your credentials over and over and calling us too stupid, ignorant, and/or uneducated does not qualify as ‘teaching’).
Point to the post where I called anyone stupid. I didn’t. Nice strawman. You attacked it pretty well too.
Actually, the ‘official version of events’ is itself a conspiracy theory, so your claim is invalid.
My claim is NOT the Official Version – which I’ve said about a billion times. Stop trying to make links that don’t exist. My version is my own – based on my experience. How coincidental that it is in agreement with many respected structural engineers and architects in practice…
I have, but Judd deletes my posts whenever they contain corroborating evidence.
Why do you think that is? Because it’s not rational.
I’m not the one being insulting here, unb. Scroll up. If you want to curtail the amount of insults in this thread, your best move would to be to stop typing.
Comment by TripMaster Monkey — September 4, 2006 @ 8:58 pm
You scroll up. You insulted me. I just responded.
Yeah, I’m gonna do what you said. You started with the insults, and as we all apparently seem to understand here, for every action there is an equal and opposite reaction. You take your own advice and go first.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:13 pmAhhhhhhhhhhh…….
Katrina hype came and went without notice. Now comes the issue Americans REALLY care about – security. The ugly truth is, while Clinton ignore the first bombing of the WTC, the bombing of two embassies and the bombing of the USS Cole, only to lob a few Tomahawks at an empty training camp in Afghanistan while hiding behind Monica’s skirt, Al Quieda was becoming more and more emboldened.
Dems are SCARED TO DEATH to look week on terror, so they will do ANYTHING to squelch all the documentaries to be seen on 9/11.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:14 pmBriseadh na Faire:
I love Zooey,… but not like that! ;)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:14 pmtry again……….
Comment by trueblue
Oh…the innocent thing.
Ok, what I meant to say, in order for everyone to understand completely, is that I am a delicate flower of womanhood; in my real life I never, never use naughty curse words (I only use the ones trueblue taught me here); and I only wear flannel jammies in ugly colors (how does one keep a strapless negligee on anyway?). In fact, I really have no idea what anyone is talking about here…
September 4th, 2006 at 9:15 pmwhatever, hintler,
September 4th, 2006 at 9:17 pmget back to cheerleading for ‘operation enduring failure’.
So it looked like you wanted to see zooey in a negligee.
mea culpa.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
As if you didn’t actually enjoy that…
Oops! (Remember, Zooey, innocent….innocent….)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:17 pmplease let it go for tonight, UnB.
We love you.
We respect you.
This is a no-win situation.
Let’s end the night as friends, please?
September 4th, 2006 at 9:18 pmWell, it will require some commitment on your part…
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 9:06 pm
Your favorite subject again… :)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:18 pmSo it looked like you wanted to see zooey in a negligee.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:18 pmmea culpa.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
I will request the same thing you said before, Briseadh, that people here (say True and Zoo) start posting links to support their comments…so, it was a negligee involved, wheres the link? :)
#426, prog rex,
Isn’t your name and oxymoron – there are no “powerful” figures among progressives, just a bunch of well coordinated sheep.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:18 pmGOP propaganda …Blame Clinton . Karl Rove thinks americans are stupid.
Comment by Carlos Roba Votos — September 4, 2006 @ 1:23 pm
…and he’s so right. Look who’s in the White House.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:19 pmWhy do I hear “Barry White†music in the background all of a sudden?
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 9:10 pm
No, listen closer. Thats Tony Bennett.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:19 pmI love Zooey,… but not like that! ;)
Comment by trueblue
ahhh…less competition for me! ;-)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:19 pmLet’s end the night as friends, please?
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 9:18 pm
This is the part that frustrated me true – Why do I alone own this? Why not Unbelievable and Worfeus? It takes two to tango… Why is Worfeus entitled to his opinon, but I’m supposed to apologize for mine? Don’t ask for that. That’s not fair.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:21 pmWe love you.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:21 pmWe respect you.
This is a no-win situation.
Let’s end the night as friends, please?
Comment by trueblue
You really are the best. After, Zoo, of course. :)
Jason acts just like MA when ignored… How funny.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:22 pmComment by Juan C — September 4, 2006 @ 9:18
Worf (and I say that in brotherly affection) wanted to see Zooey in a strapless negligee. If she did post a link, Judd deleted it post haste.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:23 pmso, it was a negligee involved, wheres the link? :)
Comment by Juan C
Hey, I didn’t start that! That’s Worfeus’ mind…
Besides, any links we post keep getting swallowed up by the spam filter. What’s a girl to do…?
September 4th, 2006 at 9:24 pmUnB,
You are just as entitled to your opinion.
Please don’t think anything else.
You are a brilliant woman, and you know I like you.
I’m just asking that both sides do the truce thing tonight, OK?
We can fight the good fight tomorrow.
:)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:24 pmWho wants to wager that 9/11 WON’T be pre-empted by Jon-Benet or Steve Irwin type stories like Katrina coverage did?
September 4th, 2006 at 9:25 pmahhh…less competition for me! ;-)
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
Are you delerious, my dear?
September 4th, 2006 at 9:26 pmtry again……….
Comment by trueblue
Oh…the innocent thing.
Ok, what I meant to say, in order for everyone to understand completely, is that I am a delicate flower of womanhood; in my real life I never, never use naughty curse words (I only use the ones trueblue taught me here); and I only wear flannel jammies in ugly colors (how does one keep a strapless negligee on anyway?). In fact, I really have no idea what anyone is talking about here…
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 9:15 pm
And you want cyber world to buy that?
We know you here!
Re: strapless issue…. If I remember correctly from another post, you have ample support for a strapless!!!
;) ;) ;)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:29 pmOk, this is where I show how dumb I am. Didnt get it. (I know Brittany and I know Exley…but…)
Comment by Juan C — September 4, 2006 @ 9:11 pm
Allow me to elaborate.
Brittany is a herpes infested cumguzzling gutter whore.
Exley? Well lets just say he’s not on my Christmas card list.
So my statement to be accurately interpreted indicates that although Brittany is considered to be boinkworthy if based on a sampling of average hetero-males in the US, I would not even bother to dismember Exley to use his phallus as a stimulating device to apply as a sexual aid in an attempt to copulate via proxy.
Is that a little clearer?
;)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:30 pmI’m just asking that both sides do the truce thing tonight, OK?
That happened about 15 minutes ago, I think. But if someone insults me, I’m gonna respond. You guys should know that about me by now. I don’t take much seriously, but when the people on my side are dismissive of my posts, or insulting, I’m not going to run away.
We can fight the good fight tomorrow.
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 9:24 pm
Aw, come one, no time like the present. :)
I should go anyway, there’s never enough planning to do. Starting a new program in a new school is seriously hard work – all the time – even on weekends.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:30 pmYou really are the best. After, Zoo, of course. :)
Comment by Juan C
Of course, Juan!
September 4th, 2006 at 9:31 pmI know my pecking order in this world!!!!
Is that a little clearer?
;)
Comment by WORFEUS
Ahhhhhh, I’m not the only one getting deleted today…
September 4th, 2006 at 9:32 pm:)
Brittany is a herpes infested cumguzzling gutter whore.
Comment by WORFEUS — September 4, 2006 @ 9:30 pm
So you have a crush on her then?
Well, this one is definitely getting deleted and we’re all getting banned…
September 4th, 2006 at 9:33 pmIs that a little clearer?
;)
Comment by WORFEUS
I am laughing so hard…damn…wait til I catch my breath.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:33 pmAh yes, and delicate flowers of womanhood are made to be plucked, gently and tenderly, and their frangrance and beauty savored for a moment, a lifetime.
you are too modest. Did you not coin the phrase “dum cumpster?” (sp)
One doesn’t. Not for long at least. That’s the whole point!
Stop wearing flannel jammies.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:33 pmNow comes the issue Americans REALLY care about – security.
So Jason, if that’s true, how are republicans going to distance themselves sufficiently from the President’s policies (as has been widely reported on newssites of all political persuasions) to “localize” the individual elections, and still get any momentum from the “security issue?” Aren’t they cutting their own throats politically by distancing themselves from the issue “Americans REALLY care about?”
The ugly truth is, while Clinton ignore the first bombing of the WTC, the bombing of two embassies and the bombing of the USS Cole, only to lob a few Tomahawks at an empty training camp in Afghanistan while hiding behind Monica’s skirt, Al Quieda was becoming more and more emboldened.
Go to AmericaBlog, they have a refutation for your weak spin.
Dems are SCARED TO DEATH to look week on terror, so they will do ANYTHING to squelch all the documentaries to be seen on 9/11.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 4, 2006 @ 9:
Keep repeating that mantra; it will have to comfort you on your trip BACK to the political wilderness.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:33 pmJuan just wants another hug.
(((Hug!)))
September 4th, 2006 at 9:33 pmI am a delicate flower of womanhood
Comment by trueblue — September 4, 2006 @ 9:29 pm
:o
September 4th, 2006 at 9:34 pmI wish I could let myself, but I’m gonna leave that one alone.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:35 pmAgain!
Not me!!!
Zooey is the one saying these things!!!!
I’m not a delicate anything!!!
Look back, Worfeus! It’s Zooey you want!
September 4th, 2006 at 9:36 pmhow does one keep a strapless negligee on anyway?
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — September 4, 2006 @ 9:33 pm
Mammeries.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:37 pmI’m not copying anything else you say, Zooey, cause somehow it gets attributed to me!!!!
You have some evil mojo over me or something!
September 4th, 2006 at 9:37 pmTrueblue, this time it’s not my fault!
September 4th, 2006 at 9:37 pmMammeries.
Comment by WORFEUS
Ha ha ha…stop…please.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:39 pmOh sorry True. Don’t know quite how that happened.
But since you’re there and all…..
September 4th, 2006 at 9:39 pmWorf, watch the cutting and pasting! Now it looks like I’m asking how to keep a strapless negligee on!
But yes, we should all give Thanks for the Mammeries.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:41 pmYou have some evil mojo over me or something!
Comment by trueblue
Now thats a nice thought. ;)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:41 pm(Was that too much? Im sorry, you never know)
I just sent an email to ABC requesting a list of sponsers for the show. With television, it’s always an option to go direct to the money source. Maybe some of you would like to do the same thing.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:41 pmSo you have a crush on her then?
Comment by unbelievable — September 4, 2006 @ 9:33 pm
I’ll make the jokes around here lady….
September 4th, 2006 at 9:41 pmDems are SCARED TO DEATH to look week on terror, so they will do ANYTHING to squelch all the documentaries to be seen on 9/11.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 4, 2006 @ 9:14 pm
Hey $ick weed–Happened on GWB’s watch. He has not found him or punished anyone involed in it.9/11 happened under GWB and both houses under Rethug control–Includes FBI,CIA DIA..The whole shabang under rethugs. Your a sick nasty old fart arent you? There is a thing called reality you should get in touch with it–my little Clintonhatebot. You know slappy you need a new moronic view of the world.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:42 pmAh yes, and delicate flowers of womanhood are made to be plucked, gently and tenderly, and their frangrance and beauty savored for a moment, a lifetime.
You are delerious. Ok…
you are too modest. Did you not coin the phrase “dum cumpster?†(sp)
Something like that. :)
What’s the matter? Too chicken to start getting deleted?
Stop wearing flannel jammies.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
Who wears jammies anyway…?
September 4th, 2006 at 9:42 pmMaybe some of you would like to do the same thing.
Comment by webrat — September 4, 2006 @ 9:41 pm
Naahh.. We do to much already.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:42 pmWell everyone, enjoy what’s left of “robota” day. Luckily for me the bar’s within walking distance . . . Cheers all!
September 4th, 2006 at 9:43 pmWhy does Hendler even comment anymore? Does he like seeing all of his pretty words on his screen or does he actually expect anybody to respond to his crap?
On the 9-11 conspiracy theories I do have a problem with censorship but if Judd didn’t have that policy every damned thread would be hijacked instantly. Then again he does let the AIPAC is all-powerful BS go on. I am torn.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:45 pmDems are SCARED TO DEATH to look week on terror.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 4, 2006 @ 9:
Who are you calling “WEEK”?
September 4th, 2006 at 9:47 pmCalling us weak is one thing, but I’ll be golldurned if I’m gonna sit here and let him call us “week”.
Who does he think he is anyway…
:\
September 4th, 2006 at 9:48 pmwebrat,
Went to ABC the first time this story was posted on TP.
Lodged my complaint.
I don’t know what else they hope to accomplish without an email link to the comment section of ABC. (first provided by a poster in the last post about this topic.)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:48 pmWho wears jammies anyway…?
Comment by Zooey
You said you did! In ugly colors. And I went through the trouble of getting this mental image of a delicate flower of womanhood all decked out in orange and yellow and fuschia flannel jammies.
Now I gotta start all over again and get a whole new picture of a delicate flower of womanhood, this time without the flannel jammies. sheeesh!
September 4th, 2006 at 9:49 pmWho are you calling “WEEK�
Comment by WORFEUS
Them’s fightin’ words!
Oh god, my stomach hurts, I’m laughing too much.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:50 pmNow I gotta start all over again and get a whole new picture of a delicate flower of womanhood, this time without the flannel jammies. sheeesh!
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
Sorry, but keep trying…
September 4th, 2006 at 9:52 pm(((Hug!)))
Comment by Zooey
Ohhh. Missed that. Harder, please… :)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:57 pmDems are SCARED TO DEATH to look week on terror.
besides not having a point at all (if you consider the opposite: that dems could be ‘pleased as punch’ to look weak on terror…), this certainly doesn’t stick with the ‘appeasement’ talking point.
get with the program, hintler! you “well coordinated sheep” are supposed to be calling us appeasers and terrorist lovers, not acknowledging the truth that democrats are trying to improve their anti-terrorism cred.
what is the world coming to?
September 4th, 2006 at 9:58 pmI am not into conspirance theory. I simply want to know why the the United States Air force with mach 2+ (That’s about 1450 mph) jets was unable to intercept aircraft with a max speed of mach 4/5 (that’s mach .8 or 580 MPH) from airbases 400 miles from the targets during a period that ranged from32 minutes to 1 hour and 7 minutes. If that is the state of our defenses, we’ll all be charcoal (With some calcium residue.) should the Vatican ever gets pissed and attacks us with the Swiss Guard in hang gliders totng Isreali nukes.
September 4th, 2006 at 9:58 pmSo, I will ask again. And I want a straight answer. Why did the towers fall? :)
September 4th, 2006 at 9:59 pmProg Rex & Walt,
Jeebus! There was a certain vibe going here, and you just ruined it by being on topic. :(
September 4th, 2006 at 10:00 pmJuan,
It’s probably best not to ask that tonight.
I’ll email you some links for research. (well, I already posted one or two…)
So, a parallel gvt., huh?
September 4th, 2006 at 10:02 pmHow’s that going to go over?
Walt, I agree that there are some strange things that happened that day…and before. Not the least why Ashcroft and Pentagon officials stopped flying commercial. But hijacking every thread is ridiculous and self-defeating (not saying you do this at all). I think light needs to be shed on 911 but I understand why Judd does what he does. There has been way too much abuse on the issue.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:02 pmWow! the whole gang is here….Coulden’t wade through all the fun but caught a little of it…..It just keep’s getting better…Strapless teddies are great for a moment but all natural is the best..Never entertain in Flannell it’s to grand motherly…LOL.
A special note for the Jason guy…Yo Jason, I was surfing all the new’s chanells today and they were all saying the same thing…..The Dem’s are ahead in the polls 2 to 1…..The public is pissed off at this administration and they want big changes. Yep! their sick of the war’s, gas prices, the way the rep’s have been running the country into the ground, job’s and lack of security..They aren’t buying the bull shit Jason.
Now I don’t know how that will translate on our winning enough to do any good to setting thing’s right but it’s a good start….Oh and by the way I have already sent all my emails to the station managers and demanded equal time for Ferenheit 9/11 and the new one I heard about called The killing of the president. I plan to watch, so I can bitch….Providing I’m not doing something more interesting…..Blessings..Peace
September 4th, 2006 at 10:03 pmOk, I’m compiling a list of ABC national advertisers who advertise on prime time ABC tv.
I just saw a Wendy’s hamburger commercial. By the way Wendys appears a notorious GOP contributor and only gives to the GOP. Call them and tell them not to sponsor the path to 9-11 and also tell them you also will continue to boycott them until their CEO gets congress to pass an unamended law to raise the minimum wage to TEN dollars an hour and repela Medicare Part D, repeal the Medicare Part B means test, and set up an 80 percent coverage prescription drug benefit in Medicare Part B.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:04 pm#477, progrex,
Both are true, as Dems like to have everything both ways –
Dems say:
let’s look strong, but not fight
let’s look generous, but at someone else’s expense
let’s look smart, but appeal to the ignorant masses
When you try to be everything, you end up being nothing.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:06 pmwhat about the pentagon, walt?
there’s andrews afb about ten miles from there, the pentagon wasn’t hit until about 1 1/2 hours after the first hijacking was reported, and there wasn’t a single fighter jet scrambled to protect our most vital military asset in the country?
hang gliders my ass… a freak on a unicycle could’ve gotten there in an hour and a half…
September 4th, 2006 at 10:06 pmsorry, zooey…
September 4th, 2006 at 10:08 pmback to digital hugs and negligee…
When you try to be everything, you end up being nothing.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
I guess you’d know all about that.
Shut your pie hole, Jason.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:09 pm#483, Sharon share alike,
Hold those polls close and hug them, as the Dems have in every election since 1994. Bottom line, while the public may have an “unpopular” or “disapproval” opinion of the current President and Congress, Democrats have not laid out an agenda that the voters would consider a better alternative.
I can only hope that Jimmy Carter stays in the news to put the fear of God in the voters hearts that he or Dukakis or some other Democratic coward weasels their way back into power.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:10 pmoperation enduring failure, jason.
operation enduring failure.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:11 pmsorry, zooey…
back to digital hugs and negligee…
Comment by progressaurus rex
Oh no, it’s all ruined now. Thanks.
This guilt-inducing moment brought to you by the letters B-I-T-C-H. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 10:11 pmWow Hendler, you just described the Republicans.
“let’s look strong, but not fight”
Do I need to explain it chickenhawk?
“let’s look generous, but at someone else’s expense”
Tax cuts…for the rich (saying it is for everybody)…while real wages for the working class go down for the fifth straight year.
“let’s look smart, but appeal to the ignorant masses”
WMD, 911, WMD, 911, WMD 911. Yeah, Bush appeals to the educated alright.
I agree that Dems try to be everything. But the Rethugs succeed at being nothing without even trying.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:12 pmProgressaurus rex,
Don’t forget Otis AFB.
Bourne, MA.
If you look on a map, it’s real close to NYC. (For a fighter jet.)
9-11-2001: nothing.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:13 pmSharon share alike
…
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Stop. It. Jason.
Sharon has never done anything to you.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:13 pm“Strapless teddies are great for a moment but all natural is the best..Never entertain in Flannell it’s to grand motherly…LOL.”
Wow, I must calm down!! Strapless teddies are good until it is time to be all natural .
Being in Wisconsin, sometimes flannel is necessary.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:14 pmWalt,
I remember following the TV news on 9/11 – hearing that our jets were scrambled, and then shortly later hearing that the last remaining airliner headed towards DC “crashed”. It reminded me of the outbound TWA flight from NY that “exploded”, when Salinger pointed out the unmistakeable radar evidence of a surface to air missle intercepting the plane.
It would not surprise me at all that terrorists had already blown up one of our planes, nor would it surprise me if our jets shot down the airliner before it got to DC.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:14 pm(((Hug!)))
Comment by Zooey
Ohhh. Missed that. Harder, please… :)
Comment by Juan C — September 4, 2006 @ 9:57 pm
“…that’s what the old lady said to the sailor!”
Old saying. What can I say? I hung out with old people…
September 4th, 2006 at 10:15 pmzooey, are you calling me a bitch?
September 4th, 2006 at 10:16 pmput the fear of God
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 4, 2006 @ 10:10 pm
Just like we were saying about a person’s god matching their own personality… Jason’s god is most certainly Dick Cheney or Charlie Mason… I’m torn as to which is more criminal. Probably Cheney. Manson killed fewer people.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:18 pmChrist Hendler, what talking head do you get your info from? Tell me how fast the jets were scrambled and then tell me how fast they are SUPPOSED to be scrambled.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:18 pmSeptember 4th, 2006 at 10:19 pm
#488, zooooooo,
I needn’t recite my list of achievements, it is oft repeated on this site. I certainly never tried to be everything – just the only thing.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:21 pmzooey, are you calling me a bitch?
Comment by progressaurus rex
No! I’m calling me a bitch — for trying to make you feel guilty for getting back on topic.
Sorry about the misunderstanding. If I ever call you a name, I will say it right out, ok?
September 4th, 2006 at 10:21 pmyea i know i was joking! it’s ok…
September 4th, 2006 at 10:22 pm#486 – progressaurus rex.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:23 pmDid you mean a mo-ped. Balancing a ten kiloton nuke on a unicycle takes considerable talent. They weigh about 500 pounds without the tritium and deuterium boosters (Read H-Bomb, for those who would like a real party.).
#499, unbee,
You know my hero is Ronald Reagan – that should have been obvious.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:23 pmI certainly never tried to be everything – just the only thing.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Too bad you didn’t succeed.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:24 pmI needn’t recite my list of achievements
yes, three time winner of the “golden cracker” award for most effective parroting of administration talking points.
also, voted “most likely to ‘get with’ rove” by his fellow 101st fighting keyboard commandos. and that’s every right-wing troll’s dream…
September 4th, 2006 at 10:25 pmWorfeus is a poet… :)
September 4th, 2006 at 10:25 pmYou no it.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:26 pmahh, yes, ronald reagan — he of the saddam appeasement and the jump-starter of the fundamentalist islamic regime in afghanistan.
that’s one great hero to have.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:26 pmLol. too bad he can’t spell.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:27 pmYou know my hero is Ronald Reagan – that should have been obvious.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 4, 2006 @ 10:23 pm
Did he go to Stanford “Ivy League” University too?
September 4th, 2006 at 10:27 pmOld saying. What can I say? I hung out with old people…
Comment by trueblue
You can say whatever you want. ;)
September 4th, 2006 at 10:27 pmI certainly never tried to be everything – just the only thing.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Too bad you didn’t succeed.
Comment by Zooey
HA!!!
Too Good, Zooey!
Props!
September 4th, 2006 at 10:27 pmand ronald reagan, he of the largest single tax hike in american history. (and possibly world history). it’s the gift that keeps on giving.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:28 pmOh, jeez rex, I hope you didn’t mean what I thought you meant about the cracker. When I was a kid there was a rumor about the “cracker game” where winning wasn’t exactly winning and “Golden” would be very appropriate.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:28 pmOnce again, Juan, you honor me.
You are sweet.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:29 pmWorf & unbelievable making up. So f*cking sweet! Brings a tear to my eye…
September 4th, 2006 at 10:30 pmwell, you’ll have to ask jason about that, jpark. i’m not in the contest, fortunately!
September 4th, 2006 at 10:30 pm#516 Don’t be so hard on Ronnie. He had to raise taxes after his disasterous tax cuts. At least he had the balls to raise them again (Actually, I believe he raised taxes 8 times) after the tax cuts didn’t have the intended consequences (why he thought they would I will never know). Bush would never admit that his cuts were a mistake no matter how much it hurt the country.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:31 pmLet’s not forget Ronnie Ray-gun who kicked all the mentally ill people out of the “Sanitorums” (mispelling intentional) to increase our homeless population substantially… What a sympathetic guy. Just like Jason.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:31 pmicx-ney, ooey-zay!!!!!
September 4th, 2006 at 10:33 pm#507, zoooooooo,
Actually, I did succeed, but then I realized that my creations just served competing interests, so I stopped. Why create new technologies, when overseas economies reap the rewards? If unions hadn’t destroyed our manufacturing sector, then Americans could reap the rewards of my work.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:33 pm#520 Heh, I have a feeling he wouldn’t win that game. He seems to have an irrational hatred toward women so I am guessing he isn’t very…um…satisfying for the women.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:33 pmWorf & unbelievable making up. So f*cking sweet! Brings a tear to my eye…
Comment by Zooey
Thought you said making out… :)
September 4th, 2006 at 10:33 pmronnie’s tax hikes still affect us.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:34 pmone of the things he did was take away the deduction for interest charged on credit cards (yes, you used to be allowed to deduct that) — this means the tax hike is still functional and accruing every year. it’s now in the hundreds of billions of dollars.
Worf & unbelievable making up. So f*cking sweet! Brings a tear to my eye…
Comment by Zooey — September 4, 2006 @ 10:30 pm
We never weren’t. We’re just not into the sugar-coated, G-rated, Bambi and Thumper version…
Later ya’ll, I need to hit the hay.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:35 pm#522, unbee,
I thought you were smarter than that. It was the 1965 Civil Rights legislation that prevented institutions from holding people against their will, creating our enormous homeless problem. What on Earth could Ronald Reagan possibly have to do with that?
September 4th, 2006 at 10:35 pmAdvertisers I see on ABC as of right now.
Since we do not yet have the names of the companies that will advertise on the REPUBLIKLAN party propaganda piece “Path to 9-11″ use this message to compile a list of national ABC advertisers you see who advertise on ABC network programming from 8pm to 11pm in your time Zone.
The first potential advertiser of this movie:
I just saw a Wendy’s hamburger commercial. By the way Wendys appears a notorious GOP contributor and only gives to the GOP. Call them and tell them not to sponsor the path to 9-11 and also tell them you also will continue to boycott them until their CEO gets congress to pass an unamended law to raise the minimum wage to TEN dollars an hour and repela Medicare Part D, repeal the Medicare Part B means test, and set up an 80 percent coverage prescription drug benefit in Medicare Part B.
More national advertisers.
Makers of Febreze.
Lowe’s hardware stores.
Edy’s Ice Cream.
Makers of Gatorade.
Makers of Secret Deoderant.
Mitsubishi Motors.
Weight Watchers.
JOIN THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA http://www.dmocrats.org
September 4th, 2006 at 10:35 pmicx-ney, ooey-zay!!!!!
Comment by trueblue
I didn’t know you were bilingual, true. No wonder Juan likes you. :)
Thought you said making out… :)
Comment by Juan C
Whichever….Just give it time, Worf is one smooth guy.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:37 pmSoooo…tax cuts are good Hendler? I mean, if they didn’t negatively affect us they are at worst affect neutral, right?
September 4th, 2006 at 10:37 pmErr, I mean tax hikes.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:39 pmWhy create new technologies, when overseas economies reap the rewards?
so, you are a selfish republican xenophobe. that’s got to be about one of the most stupid things i’ve ever heard.
keep blaming those unions, by the way. it certainly makes more sense to blame hard-working americans for wanting to keep their benefits and standard-of-living than some schmuck ceo sitting behind a desk, doing little or no real work and getting a multi-million dollar contract, shares, options, full benefits and, of course, the key to the executive washroom. makes total sense.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:40 pmYou know my hero is Ronald Reagan – that should have been obvious.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Umm He did make a gay porno film, you know those hollywood types…
September 4th, 2006 at 10:41 pmNo wonder Juan likes you. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 10:41 pmmmm…eemmm…gee…where did I put the mmm… the thing…of the…with the…thing…and the…
Whichever….Just give it time, Worf is one smooth guy.
Comment by Zooey
I guess you’d know………..
;)
September 4th, 2006 at 10:42 pmactually, hintler, unbelievable is absolutely correct in 522. i have a relative who was directly affected, and ended up homeless in the 1980s because of what reagan did.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:42 pm**please don’t hurt me!**
September 4th, 2006 at 10:42 pm#532, jpark,
You will have to refer to my posts describing how the government uses all its various policies to “create” markets (not own or control them) in which business and individuals can flourish. The government does not create jobs, they create the conditions in which wealth can be created by businesses and individuals. Tax cuts, land/resource grants, security, law enforcement – all contribute to creating markets. When these policies are coordinated and targeted, then the whole country prospers (railroads, TVA, etc.)
September 4th, 2006 at 10:43 pmmmm…eemmm…gee…where did I put the mmm… the thing…of the…with the…thing…and the…
Comment by Juan C
Heh.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:44 pmIf they proved that deficits dont matter them why would tax cuts matter?
September 4th, 2006 at 10:45 pmYeah, Hendler, your trickle-down economy has certainly thrived. Would that Bush or Reagan were president in 1930.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:47 pm#534, progrex,
If individual want good salaries and benefits, then they need to increase their productivity to justify those gains, but you would rather use “collective baraining” to extort those things.
As a former exec, I can tell you that I created wealth for the company in which I worked, and the responsibilities held by execs outweigh any responsibilities a union worker hold. If all jobs paid the same, everyone would ride in the wagon, instead of being out front pulling the “load”.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:48 pmNo wonder Juan likes you. :)
mmm…eemmm…gee…where did I put the mmm… the thing…of the…with the…thing…and the…
Comment by Juan C
Back at ‘ya, Cutie!
;)
September 4th, 2006 at 10:48 pmThe government does not create jobs, they create the conditions in which wealth can be created by businesses and individuals.
Sure they create jobs..some Indians pay off lobbyists to get the Government to put in high speed communications, then the government pays for it, you and me, and then some friend of a lobbyist gets the contract and hires illegal aliens to install the cable..The Reservation gets cheap cable, the Senator gets ‘gifts and girls’ and the lobbyist calls them names and pockets his share. Kinda like Delay and the Mariannas…
Not to mention Sen bridge to nowhere Stevens and his son err business err Individual err VECO..
September 4th, 2006 at 10:50 pmA 12th lawmaker, Senate President Ben Stevens, the son of US Sen Ted Stevens, was also noted in the article as receiving generous consulting fees from VECO. …
http://www.adn.com/news/government/story/8144643p-8038526c.html
Yeh thats the ticket!!
September 4th, 2006 at 10:52 pm#546, Trin,
The government is using tax money to pay for all that, so it is the taxpayer who created those “jobs”.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:52 pmThe government is using tax money to pay for all that, so it is the taxpayer who created those “jobsâ€.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Un huh yeh sure right I’m buying that..
September 4th, 2006 at 10:53 pm#538 Reagan did his best to destroy my family. My father died in 1980. Ok, that is a tragedy. But my mom, who had no marketable skills but a fine mind, decided to go to school. Great. Then Reagan cut survivors’ benefits and student aid. I can’t imagine how my mom made it. I remember a lot of mac and cheese. Now, she is close to retirement age (of course, since psychotherapists don’t actually work hard they don’t get a whole lot of money so who knows if she will be able to retire), is a productive member of society who has paid taxes at a higher rate than would have been possible without SS. Republicans just don’t understand social investment. Morons.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:53 pmThe government does not create jobs, they create the conditions in which wealth can be created by businesses and individuals. Tax cuts, land/resource grants, security, law enforcement – all contribute to creating markets. When these policies are coordinated and targeted, then the whole country prospers (railroads, TVA, etc.)
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Probably in Jasonland. Here in Planet Earth, wealth is produced by (I have to repeat myself) workers exploitation. Everytime you drink soda from a can made of tin, a miner loses his lungs in a Bolivian mine from silicosis. What that miner is paid in comparison with what that company makes out of his labor is a almost nothing. The same examples are with the zinc, coffee, copper, guano, etc. Welcome to the real world, Jason.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:54 pmThe government does not create wealth, they just provide the conditions to create wealth, using taxes on existing wealth and wealth creation – it really is that simple.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:55 pm#544 Are you paying attention at all to the economy??? Production…increasing. Real wages…decreasing. Do you see a problem with that?
September 4th, 2006 at 10:55 pmIt was the 1965 Civil Rights legislation that prevented institutions from holding people against their will, creating our enormous homeless problem. What on Earth could Ronald Reagan possibly have to do with that?
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 4, 2006 @ 10:35 pm
Jason you have always been a dumb $hit but, that one takes the cake–Your not only a clintonhatebot but, my little prevert–Stupid!! Give it a rest-it is over for you.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:57 pm#553, jpark,
Do you mean productivity or production? Either way, can you define what that metric is? Chances are, productivity may be up, as baby-boomer leave the work force, since they are the worst generation of Americans, having followed the best generation of Americans who fought WWII.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:57 pmExcuse me, productivity, not production (though I would guess that is too).
September 4th, 2006 at 10:57 pm#556, jpark,
Actually, productivity would only increase if American companies outsourced production overseas, as union workers are very UNproductive.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:59 pmLOL, the worst generation. K. They have a productivity of 2 1/2 times higher than the 1940’s adults.
September 4th, 2006 at 10:59 pmBook: Bush told reporter Jews are ‘all going to hell’
Larisa Alexandrovna
Published: Saturday September 2, 20
==
Damn now bush is an Anti-Semite? Sheesh…whats next Savid Duke for press secretary??
==
Drudge
Bush: Oil nations ’simply don’t like us’
Says tax cuts and ’safe, clean, renewable’ nuclear power create good jobs.
[Unless your in Iran where safe clean powerplant will create war]
Dear God,please save us all from this bumbling bubble boob boy
September 4th, 2006 at 10:59 pmAs a former exec, I can tell you that I created wealth for the company in which I worked, and the responsibilities held by execs outweigh any responsibilities a union worker hold.
i was talking about hard work, jason, not responsibilities. and job risk. and job security. do union workers get golden parachutes? no. does the worker create wealth for a company also? yes. does the amount of “responsibility” that a ceo takes on outweigh the “responsibilities” of a union worker by a factor of almost 300X, which is the difference between average worker pay and average executive pay in america? absolutely not.
quit acting like the ceo’s life is such a tragedy, because clearly it’s not. love those big crocodile tears you’re crying there, hintler.
If all jobs paid the same, everyone would ride in the wagon, instead of being out front pulling the “loadâ€.
all i’m talking about is this:
executive pay jumped 571 percent between 1990 and 2000
worker pay grew 37 percent
so get out of here with your ceo sob story.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:00 pmThank’s for sticking up for me Zooey, but you realy don’t need to…I usualy pass over all of Jasons posts along with the rest of the troll’s, but was scanning all of them tonight…
Note, I find all republican men to be like carl rove, ugly,fat, bloated faces, no neck’s and lacking social graces..Few have good conversational skills with a lady and so have never gotten more than a first date or five minutes of my time…Let me not forget they are have a simaler attitude they believe they are god’s gift to women..LOL..Democratic men are far superior in all areas.. Case in point..the last line in Jason’s post….”I certainly never tried to be everything- just the only thing”…….Now that ’s exactley what I mean about Republican men…Ya go to a buffette and all there is, is jello. Try to nail that to a tree… Demacratic men can do it all with flair and grace and can carry on a good conversation about thing’s other than them selves…Republican men are dud’s…..Blessings…. Peace..
September 4th, 2006 at 11:00 pm#557 What planet do you live on? Productivitly has increased by 3 times since the big war. Yet wages, in real terms, are lower. Blaming unions is pure crap. It is your Republican masters who pay people overseas pennies on the dollar to make garbage that nobody will be able to afford soon. The free market. What a wonderful thing.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:02 pmI guess Worfeus and UnB are really making things up…
September 4th, 2006 at 11:02 pm:)
Actually, productivity would only increase if American companies outsourced production overseas, as union workers are very UNproductive.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Jason have you ever worked in a Union?
I have, for 5 years, As a Certified repair tech with Braniff Airlines. I can assure you that I did more actual work in one day than 10 of my bosses put together…Sure we had our share of lazy asses, but even they produced more ‘Product’ than manage ment ever did.
That is management does not create profit, the workers do.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:03 pmA manager simply cannot work on aircraft, ergo he cannot produce any income or profit for the Airline. They are dead weight.
#562, jpark,
American execs have NO choice. With union workers willing to strike, or slow roll or sabotage production, the only way execs can faithfully serve our customers is to turn to overseas production facilities that we can count on.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:04 pmJuan, you dog!! :)
September 4th, 2006 at 11:04 pmThat is pure crap Hendler. If you paid American workers a fair wage they would be able to afford the worthless junk you produce. You know, the way it has been for 2 centuries. You pay less for more and then blame the workers that your CEO isn’t making 45 million instead of 35 million. Are you kidding?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:06 pmyes, now we have “the ceo president”.
and notice how he complains about all the “hard work”.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:08 pmas if the man’s ever had to do a day’s hard work in his life…
#564 I have worked for management long enough to realize this truth. I have rarely had one that knew his or her a$$ from a hole in the ground. The ones that were worth their salt were worth paying (as are workers) but it is incredible how the politics of any situation makes it certain that those people are rare. I forget the rule but it was something about a person being promoted to the highest level of his/her incompetence.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:10 pmAmerican execs have NO choice.
yes, i mean, how will they afford the bentley if they give in to the unions? and then there’s the mortgage on the vacation home…
it’s deplorable the things executives have to go through! a true american tragedy!
September 4th, 2006 at 11:11 pmIn fact the people that were chosen for management were usually total screwups and were dangerous around such equipment and aircraft..usually their day consisted of walking around asking the mechanics, “Are you done yet?” smoking cigarettes and generally just collecting a paycheck.
Management, to me, is the biggest waste funds I have ever seen.
==
With union workers willing to strike, or slow roll or sabotage production, the only way execs can faithfully serve our customers is to turn to overseas production facilities that we can count on. Comment by Jason M. Hendler.
What a load of carp. Without goodd workers your exec wouldn’t be able to sit on his fatback all day and play on the internet..
September 4th, 2006 at 11:11 pm#564, Trin,
I worked with UAW workers in factories in the late ’80’s, where absenteeism was 10% among union workers, witnessed two cases of sabotage and watched a “labor pool” nap all day in the event extra bodies were needed to support the lines.
In your case, in which maintenance is fairly routine, your direct managers don’t have much impact on profits. It is the airline execs, who implement market strategies that actually determine the profit or loss.
No offense intended, as I do respect hard skills like mech techs, etc., but yours is a cost center, not a profit center. You are not building new planes, nor are you increasing the money making capacity of airplanes, so you are not “creating” wealth.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:11 pmAnd yes Jason I have also worked as the IT guy and I used to watch the networks and see all the emails, the porno sites, the days spent on Ebay…yeh them execs work real hard.
I would just love to get my hands on a CEO and make him go out and work in the 110 degree heat for 12 hrs and watch that stupid sob flop around on the pavement like a fish out of water when he passes out from the heat…
September 4th, 2006 at 11:15 pmI would just love to get my hands on a CEO and make him go out and work in the 110 degree heat for 12 hrs and watch that stupid sob flop around on the pavement like a fish out of water when he passes out from the heat…
now THAT’S what i mean by hard work. 12 hours is a joke. most “executives” wouldn’t make it 12 minutes.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:17 pmActually, productivity would only increase if American companies outsourced production overseas, as union workers are very UNproductive.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 4, 2006 @ 10:59 pm
So what do American companies need to outsource?? Burger flipping, call centers(Press #1 if your only slightley pissed, #2 if very pissed off). Ve need to increase der productivity of der masses, so many are not pulling their weight–pisses off Herr Hendler–Clintonhatebot. also, mean,nasty old washed up failure. Hendler–give it up you old washed up fart.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:18 pm…I have also worked as the IT guy and I used to watch the networks and see all the emails…
Comment by Trinary Suka
Um, IT guys see all the emails…? I mean, I know they’re not to be considered private, but they sit down there and read them?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:18 pmI worked with UAW workers in factories in the late ’80’s, where absenteeism was 10% among union workers, witnessed two cases of sabotage and watched a “labor pool†nap all day in the event extra bodies were needed to support the lines.
And they still use more energy and produce more profit than a management dweeb.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:18 pmYeah, Zooey, I read that about 40% of companies moniter their employee’s emails. Doesn’t stop me from emailing so since I am still employed I am guessing my company isn’t one of them. Or they care about productivity, something our resident trickle-downer doesn’t.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:20 pmComment by Zooey
September 4th, 2006 at 11:21 pmZoo. Off topic. By any chance, you just wrote me to my e-address?
Um, IT guys see all the emails…? I mean, I know they’re not to be considered private, but they sit down there and read them?
Comment by Zooey
Sure, all that stuff is logged, with a packet sniffer running I could even tell them their emai passwords..and watch the HTTP packets and watch the database and see what girl was entering what, who signed in at what time…pretty much everything, so Yes, I mean you can’t possibly watch it all, theirs just too much data flow, but you can log it and filter thru the packet logs..
September 4th, 2006 at 11:22 pmThere is enough false information out there already (watched Fox News lately?) without distorting the truth any more. ABC should make the “docudrama” accurate or they should state very plainly at the beginning that it is fiction.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:22 pm573 / 574,
No one is denying that you may work hard in your respective job, but you are NOT creating wealth – you are part of a cost center.
In my work, there were many times, when I had all my events staged, and merely waited for each step to be completed before engaging the next step, and in the meantime, played computer card games, but I generated over a million dollars in profit for my company by leading the development, sales and manufacturing of a product. My hands never got dirty, I never broke a sweat, cut a knuckle or bruised a muscle, but I DID advise and direct a few people in efforts that lead to large profits.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:23 pmJPark,
There’s nothing I care about them reading, except maybe one time, heh, but it gives me the creeps thinking about them sitting downstairs munching on goldfish crackers, reading my emails. Maybe they need to be more busy…
September 4th, 2006 at 11:24 pmJason. Everybody agrees that profit is made by human labor. The ones who do that are called workers. The other ones just happen to be profiteering from them. And I bet all here (except me) agrees with free-market…but a fair one!
September 4th, 2006 at 11:24 pmThats part of keeping a network secure is too montior whats going on. I didn’t make a habit of looking at emails unless management was looking for something, usually a reason to fire someone..looking at porno or what not..
September 4th, 2006 at 11:24 pmZoo. Off topic. By any chance, you just wrote me to my e-address?
Comment by Juan C
No Juan, I don’t have your address. Problem?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:26 pmSince we do not yet have the names of the companies that will advertise on the REPUBLIKLAN party propaganda piece “Path to 9-11″ use this message to compile a list of national ABC advertisers you see who advertise on ABC network programming from 8pm to 11pm in your time Zone.
The first potential advertiser of this movie:
I just saw a Wendy’s hamburger commercial. By the way Wendys appears a notorious GOP contributor and only gives to the GOP. Call them and tell them not to sponsor the path to 9-11 and also tell them you also will continue to boycott them until their CEO gets congress to pass an unamended law to raise the minimum wage to TEN dollars an hour and repela Medicare Part D, repeal the Medicare Part B means test, and set up an 80 percent coverage prescription drug benefit in Medicare Part B.
Complain to:
investor_relations@wendys.com
marsha_gordon@wendys.com
denny_lynch@wendys.com
rita_soronen@wendys.com
john_barker@wendys.com
john-barker@wendys.com
david_poplar@wendys.com
david-poplar@wendys.com
Jack_Schuessler@wendys.com
Kathie_Chesnut@wendys.com
Denny_Lynch@wendys.com
Jodi_Cowan@wendys.com
More national advertisers.
Makers of Febreze.
Lowe’s hardware stores.
Edy’s Ice Cream.
Makers of Gatorade.
Makers of Secret Deoderant.
Mitsubishi Motors.
Weight Watchers.
JOIN THE LIBERAL DEMOCRATIC PARTY OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA http://www.dmocrats.org
September 4th, 2006 at 11:27 pmand i love this phrase “creating wealth”…
for whom?! what incentive does a worker have to “create wealth” for someone else? it’s quite clear in our capitalist, free market society that “creating wealth” really means feeding the greed of some executive wanker who will eventually realize they can ship the jobs overseas anyway, and “create” even more “wealth” for themselves.
workers in america have had to fight for EVERY INCH they’ve gotten, hintler. and you want to bitch because some executives have to choose between sticking it to the union or a taking a couple of points off of their 3000% higher pay.
that’s tough. i wish i could have sympathy, but somehow i just don’t.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:27 pmHendler. Take out the cost center…now, see how much money you make. You didn’t create anything but lines of red and black cards. Now, sit there and make those red and black alternating cards…without actual people actually doing work.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:27 pmMy hands never got dirty, I never broke a sweat, cut a knuckle or bruised a muscle
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Sorry, but thats not work. Until you have worked in a mine or similar conditions you will know the true meaning of it.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:28 pmTrinary Suka,
Thanks. I don’t think they have a problem with personal email, as long as we’re getting the job done. I don’t know why they’d be interested in where I’m having lunch, or Mom’s Daily Guilt-O-Gram, but I can see where they’d want to know if I was emailing about the latest dude charged with a felony.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:29 pm#585, Juan,
NO
It depends on whether you are part of a cost or profit center. Fabricators / assemblers / processors are wealth creators. Maintenance / facilities / IT / accounting / human resources, etc. are cost centers. Execs lead all those activities, trying to determine what their employees can do that will generate the highest revenues in the least amount of time with the least amount of costs – which sooooooo many people can’t do, because they lack vision.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:29 pm$590 Yeah, “creating wealth” is a pretty loaded phrase. It means (increasing multiply under Bush) tax-free lifestyles for the ruling class.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:30 pmProblem?
Comment by Zooey
Everythings fine, Zoo. I just deleted a spam mail, but suddenly while I was deleting I thought it could be you. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 11:31 pmI would like to extend an invitation to you to join in on a collective blogging section of our upcoming winter issue of Reconstruction
Here is the original call:
Theories/Practices of Blogging
Our intent in this section of the issue will be to collect a wide range of bloggers and link up to their statements in regards to why they blog (something many of us are asked) and any statement they have on the theories/practices of blogging.
If you already have a post on this you can feel free to use it, or, if you are interested, you can submit a new one.
We will link to each statement from the issue at our site, with the intent of creating a hyperlinked list of statements on blogging that can serve as an introduction to blogging (or an expansion of knowledge for those already blogging).
If you are interested please contact me at the gmail address.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:32 pmwhich sooooooo many people can’t do, because they lack vision
this, coming from a guy who advocates taking peoples’ rights away. yep, that’s vision, alright. of what sort, i’m not certain…
September 4th, 2006 at 11:32 pmDid this script come off the same fax machine that gives the GOP nightly talking points to ABC cankers, oops I meant anchors.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:32 pmHendler, in that case we cost accountants would be fricking rolling in it. But, alas…we are not.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:32 pmMy hands never got dirty, I never broke a sweat, cut a knuckle or bruised a muscle
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Shit Jason, you’re not trying hard enough. I do all of those things, and I work at a frickin’ desk.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:32 pmMy hands never got dirty, I never broke a sweat, cut a knuckle or bruised a muscle, but I DID advise and direct a few people in efforts that lead to large profits. Comment by Jason M. Hendlerâ€
I would rather break a sweat, cut my knuckles, run safety wire thru my fingers, swallow skydrol, before I ever want to work around a bunch of ‘executives’ in an office.
They were ignorant of technology, they were ignorant of the internet, they were ignorant of cars, they were ignorant in their religion, they were ignorant of historym they were ignorant of politicsm they were ignorant in religion, they were ignorant in nearly every subject except how to screw people and make the money God happy, they were crass, spiteful and overbearing slobs.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:32 pmIn fact Jason they talked alot like you.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:34 pm…but suddenly while I was deleting I thought it could be you. :)
Comment by Juan C
Nooooooo! Someday, my sweet.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:34 pm#584 My emails to certain people are less than pure but I don’t see why that is my employer’s business. If I were giving away trade secrets…that is another story. No offense to IT people (my brother is one) but I find their trade a bit creepy.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:36 pm#590, progrex,
True, the structure of the compensation plan for the typical worker does not motivate them to “create wealth”. Many companies created 401K plans and options packages to motivate their workers to look for cost cutting / wealth creating opportunities (unfortunately, they ran into an obstinant bureaucracy that didn’t know how to process these contributions, so it failed to effect real gains).
The only motivation you really have is that any wealth creation activities you implement will help save your job and the jobs of your coworkers – that was my motivation when I was an entry level engineer, trying to restart productions lines that were shut down for quality problems. If those lines didn’t restart, I would still have a job, but many of my coworkers wouldn’t.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:36 pm#603 Darn right. Even we office workers occasionally get ink on our hands. I am guessing the only thing he gets on his hands is…oops, that would probably get me deleted.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:38 pmAnd remeber all of those stupid bullsh*t terrorist alerts? Oooooo! Today it’s Yellow, watch out! Uh oh, now it’s orange! You’d better run for cover and pray to chimpy to save You! Oh, today the terror level is down, quick, go buy lots of duct tape and plastic sheeting while you can! Hurry, Cheney’s got a lot of stock in 3M!! My cousin is a retired FBI agent, but back then he was still with the FBI. I asked him what the deal was with all of the colored terror alerts, what exactly they meant, where the next terror attack was supposed to occur, etc, because what were we supposed to do if we didn’t know where the attack was expected and what kind of attack to expect, and what exactly were we supposed to do anyway? Cower in our basements? He said, and I quote, “I’d tell you but then I’d have to kill you.” Translation: It’s all BS; go about your life in normal fashion…
September 4th, 2006 at 11:38 pmThat would be #602. Are posts being deleted?
September 4th, 2006 at 11:39 pm#601, jpark,
Accountants are part of a cost center, not a profit center, and as most are women, the wages are generally low.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:41 pmDarn right. Even we office workers occasionally get ink on our hands. I am guessing the only thing he gets on his hands is…oops, that would probably get me deleted.
Comment by JPark
Heh. I bruise myself all the time, especially my hands and arms, and I recently pulled a muscle in my chest moving the file drawers around in the vault, but the worst are the PAPER CUTS! Ow, ow, ow! :)
September 4th, 2006 at 11:43 pmSomeday, my sweet.
Comment by Zooey
My electronic, virtual mailbox will be open and anxious waiting that day. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 11:43 pm#603 Yep! You’re right 100%…..You did forget fat, ugly and most have no neck’s……Blessings
September 4th, 2006 at 11:43 pm#596, btru….
It’s been awhile, yet your rants never change.
I made the technical breakthroughs and contributions that my employees needed to complete their work, and without it, we wouldn’t have come close to the profits generated.
When you have vision, you can plan and have everything staged to begin the next steps – it can be absolutely effortless. My employees seldom, if never, had to work overtime, as we coasted to enormous profits. That is what a good exec does.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:45 pmTrue, the structure of the compensation plan for the typical worker does not motivate them to “create wealthâ€.
this is lame, jason. just lame. such a clinical description of a fundamental problem of american labor — workers aren’t getting ahead, they’re just barely keeping up. the middle class is disappearing. and by your estimation, it’s all their fault.
the “executives” are the ones in charge, and it’s all everyone else’s fault. funny, where else have i heard that recently? OH YEA! from the republicans who control both the white house and congress! IT’S ALL EVERYONE ELSE’S FAULT!
blaming everyone else must be a republican trait.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:46 pmJuan,
Heh.
Sharon,
We all know Jason is ugly and nobody likes him, but what a few of us may not know is that he eats worms out of the garden.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:46 pm#612 You do know that cost accountants maximize profit right? You know, those people with ideas. I have never heard someone as arrogant as you. Thinking that management somehow has some type of mystical power to make money. I would LOVE to see a strike at your sweatshop.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:48 pm#616 But an accountant making changes and increasing the profit is “cost center” You are joking right? You, my myopic friend would be a cost center to whatever company you worked for.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:49 pmI’ve got $1 that says Jason is self-employed because no one can stand to work with him — or as HE would say, because he chooses to do so.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:50 pm#613 Don’t I know it. Those paper cuts are brutal. I am just waiting for carpal tunnal to strike me down in my prime.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:51 pmJPark,
Take B-complex everyday, normal dosage. Helps with the tingly fingers, unless you’re around a loved one, of course. :)
September 4th, 2006 at 11:53 pmMaybe you could learn a thing or two here Jason
China’s Little Capitalists
by Sascha Matuszak
–counterpunch.org
The beauty of Chinese society today is its ability to represent virtually every epoch of society, every possible strata, all at once. Unlike the U.S., where virtually every creed and color finds a home or at least a struggle for one, in China peasants rub shoulders with avant-garde artists and nouveau-riche fat cats with little education and rent five-star hotel rooms next to multilingual Party secretaries with world-class degrees. America is a melting pot of cultures; China is a melting pot of classes.
With this comes a variety of problems for the government to solve. It must raise the living standard for the common laborer running his smoke shop on the street corner and bring 21st-century farming methods and education to the countryside, while reining in corrupt businessmen and their bureaucrat cronies. But this is not all: the country is starving for energy, so every river with some white water is being dammed, and the Party’s hold on power is as tenuous as it ever was, so the thought police have to keep all of these various social groups in check.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:54 pmThanks Zooey, I haven’t had tingly fingers in awhile!!
September 4th, 2006 at 11:55 pm#617, progrex,
It IS the responsibility of the employee to seek / acquire the training to increase their productivity / value in the marketplace. If they are not rewarded for that training by their employer, then they can find a higher paying job with their enhanced resume.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:55 pm#619, jpark,
NO
Cost accountants seek to reduce / control costs, not increase revenues / profit – big difference, but you would have to be an exec to understand that.
September 4th, 2006 at 11:57 pmYeah, Hendler, your trickle-down economy has certainly thrived…
Comment by JPark — September 4, 2006 @ 10:47 pm
yay! knew this was worth saving:
TINKLE-down Economics 101:
I have mine, piss on you!
(credit west virginia hillbilly)
September 4th, 2006 at 11:58 pmJPark,
Already taking B-Complex, or no loved one? :)
September 4th, 2006 at 11:59 pm#621, zooooo….
I have had employees tell me I am the best boss they’ve ever had. I have had execs tell me I am the best manager they’ve ever seen. I have received various compliments that reflect on my vision / instincts that are singular.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:01 amHi katy.
Judd can delete 400 comments, but dammit, we’re going to get it back up over 700! Most of what he deleted was Santo, of course, but some “normal” commenters’ stunning wit was caught in the purge.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:01 amI have had employees tell me I am the best boss they’ve ever had. I have had execs tell me I am the best manager they’ve ever seen. I have received various compliments that reflect on my vision / instincts that are singular.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Yeah, to your face.
So, self-employed?
September 5th, 2006 at 12:02 amCost accountants seek to reduce / control costs, not increase revenues / profit – big difference, but you would have to be an exec to understand that.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 4, 2006 @ 11:57 pm
Wow. Do you even read what you post? If you reduce costs, you increase profits. Apparently you aren’t an exec because you don’t understand that.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:05 am#633, zoooooo
… so the compliments I’ve received could only have been from individuals being duplicitous? and my MSEE from TOP-RANKED Stanford University, as well as my SIX PATENTS and million dollar profits show no trend of success?
It just kills Dems that Reps are so successful in their personal lives. From their own frame of reference, it could only have been from cheating, because that is all a Democrat could do.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:07 amJason,
Focus. Self-employed?
September 5th, 2006 at 12:08 am#633, blue,
NO
If your cost cutting reduces revenues as much or more than the cost savings, then you have NOT increased profits. Execs understand both sides of the equation, they will even increase costs, if it increases revenues more, thereby increasing profits.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:09 amWell looks like this thread was hijacked by Jason M Hendler. I guess those ‘male enhancement’ ads don’t lie, eh?
September 5th, 2006 at 12:12 amTerrytheTurtle,
Um, yeah, it was Jason, no need to read further…
September 5th, 2006 at 12:13 am#637, Terry,
Yeah, sorry, I guess you were enjoying the previous conversation about negligees …
proceed …
September 5th, 2006 at 12:13 amJason,
Self-employed? Yes or no.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:15 am#640, zoooooooo
Early retirement – real estate investments, more than engineering breakthroughs – thanks for caring ….
September 5th, 2006 at 12:16 am#639 – I’d prefer that to your entry in your very own ‘big johnson contest’ – I assume you won.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:18 amJason,
Yep, self-employed. You may send the $1 to the NAACP.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:18 amIt IS the responsibility of the employee to seek / acquire the training to increase their productivity / value in the marketplace.
i’m finding that you, besides obviously being full of yourself, suffer from the same malady that afflicts many republicans: you’ve never seen the other side of the rich-poor gap.
you have no idea what it takes to raise a family on those 3000% lower wages. you have no idea that to “acquire the training to increase their productivity” takes both time and money — both things that are severely lacking for a working class family. you have no idea what it means to be downsized, made part of “strategic cuts”, or replaced by a younger and cheaper (and likely less productive) worker as a cost-cutting measure. and you didn’t watch hard work, productivity and innovation equate to no job security, starting in the 80s — yes, during your hero, ronald reagan’s time.
you’re trying to make a point here, but until you can justify that 3000%, you’re just an empty suit. like most executives.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:18 amJason,
Good try to reframe what I said, but also kind of sad because you know I’m right. If you reduce costs, profits rise. I said nothing about revenues. Revenues do not have to fall just because you’ve reduced costs.
Increasing revenues will sometimes bring increased costs which will actually lower profits, but execs need to know that too. (Oh look, I can reframe too)
September 5th, 2006 at 12:18 amTerry,
The numbering is off. You just congratulated me on winning my own big johnson contest.
I always enter, but I only win Miss Congeniality…
September 5th, 2006 at 12:21 amit is curious that hintler (heh – i like that one) showed up tonight… not his usual shift… makes me wonder what i don’t like to wonder – he did “rescue” this thread from the big, bad conspiracy theorists… aka real patriots, imho…
i don’t get judd’s priorities and terms… not consistant at all…
September 5th, 2006 at 12:22 am#644, progrex,
I love all these libs who think that every Rep was born with a silver spoon in their mouth. Growing up, we rarely had health insurance. After childhood innoculations, we never went to a doctor unless there was a broken bone. I worked every odd job a kid could to earn what I wanted.
I have worked hard in every job to ensure that my organization was successful and continued to be gainfully employed. Moreover, I took advantage of every training / education program my companies offered, which benefitted both them and me. You MUST make the time for training. I would have loved to go jet skiing or snowmobiling or bowling or whatever else you like to do, but I made self-improvement a priority, so don’t cry to me when you get downsized, if you didn’t do anything to prevent it, since you weren’t motivated to do so before.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:24 amkaty,
This thread was played out long ago. I think anyone who was inclined to do so has sent their email to ABC, and is contacting the sponsors, now it’s time for fun.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:25 am#645, blue,
The reframe is a result of the focus of the executive. Cost accountants follow the instructions of the execs to enforce a program plan that will result in profits. Cost accountants focus on the costs, while the execs focus on the markets, market values of their products / services and structuring deals with customers that are mutually beneficial.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:28 amIt just kills Dems that Reps are so successful in their personal lives.
you’d like to believe that, wouldn’t you? that sure would feed your ego. what kills dems (by my estimation, since i don’t claim to be one) is that pricks like you, when they find success, treat it like it’s some “divine right” that allows you to shit all over those who are less fortunate, which is exactly what you are doing here.
tell me, jason, did you work your way through stanford? did you earn that degree, or was it just paid for by mummy and dahddy’s money?
i concur with jpark: republicans just don’t understand social investment.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:29 amI have received various compliments that reflect on my vision / instincts that are singular.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
My mom says Im the best son ever. Take that, Jason. :)
and my MSEE from TOP-RANKED Stanford University, as well as my SIX PATENTS and million dollar profits show no trend of success?
I have a wooden train that goes choo-choo-choo!
September 5th, 2006 at 12:30 amSorry Zooey, not my intent. Been home three days and on the road again – this time to Calgary. May sniff up some interesting zeitgeist on the gold rush going on there – its been six months or so since I was there.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:31 am#651, progrex,
So that we are clear, define social investment …
September 5th, 2006 at 12:32 amIs Jason the one who gets his climate research from Michael Crichton? I get my parenting skills from Dr Seuss, who got the better lead?
September 5th, 2006 at 12:33 amoh! hi zooey! missed that earlier…
i almost chimed in on saturday night… forget which thread, but i was staying at my daughter’s – after the big football game, she and friends went out to party – it was a long day, and i was tired, but couldn’t get sleepy, so i checked out the happenings here at TP… but i got on a little too late to catch you then… oh well…
September 5th, 2006 at 12:33 am#652, Juan,
You used to be an informed debator – I am surprised that you employ petty mockery to gain points with the women on this board, but then again, you feigned sympathy in the “plight of American women” weeks ago.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:34 amdefine social investment …
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Jesus H. Christ…
Either you get it or you don’t. Jason does not get it.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:35 amTerry,
Calgary — Canada in general — is some beautiful country.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:37 am#658, zooooooo
Liberals define social investment as giving a man a fish.
Republicans define social investment as teaching a man to fish.
Believe me, I get it, I just don’t think libs do.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:37 amYou used to be an informed debator
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Lighten, Jason. Thats what the :) are for. To mean that it is not with a bad intention. Besides, saying that you did this and that, doesnt add one interesting thing to the debate and makes you seem as a loser. Perhaps if you just stick with facts that everyone can see or at least check, it would be a debate, otherwise is you praising yourself, which is really lame. Im tired and you just wont give up cause according to you execs should rule a country. I have a suggestion for you: 2 movies.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:40 amWatch The Take and The Corporation.
Jason,
Just so you know, Juan is more of a man than you’ll ever dream of being.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:41 amMr. Hendler,
Are you really in that much need of praise that you have to constantly extol your own virtues?
You also seem to extract much pleasure out of condeming others less fortunate than you, regarding their unlucky circumstances as character flaw. Which in turn allows you to see your success as a testament of your perfection.
But at the end, no matter how much you try and how articulate you are -you will not make us forget self-praise is no praise at all.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:44 am#661, Juan,
A smiley face allows you to work both sides of the fence – save it. My comments about my successes are to refute disparaging statement, sorry if that makes you feel insecure.
Capitalism and wealth creation have created a high standard of living for everyone in the US. Even the most poor Americans are doing better than those in North Korea or other former communist third world nations.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:44 amThe reframe is a result of the focus of the executive. Cost accountants follow the instructions of the execs to enforce a program plan that will result in profits. Cost accountants focus on the costs, while the execs focus on the markets, market values of their products / services and structuring deals with customers that are mutually beneficial.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 5, 2006 @ 12:28 am
I think the reframe comes from the fact that you said cost accountants only seek to reduce costs and not increase profits. I called you on it, and you didn’t want to admit you were wrong (even though you knew that you were). Or even worse, you didn’t know that you were wrong and it turns out that a degree from Stanford is apparently overpriced.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:44 amfunny how those assumptions work both ways, hintler.
i personally have never been downsized. i happen to live and work in another country, as an expert in copyright law. i got my first job when i was 14 and have worked ever since. i worked my way through college.
but i have been poor, so i know that struggle. and i have had good friends and relatives that were more than qualified lose their jobs, and not for lack of self-improvement.
try this: an “expert” on cutting labor forces is hired by a company for the paltry sum of $2.2 million to “trim the fat”.
and i never said “every republican,” did i? i believe the term i used was “many republicans”. and don’t think i don’t notice when people demonstrate that they’re “too good” for some things, and what part of the political spectrum they represent.
you know, i never called for your rights to be revoked. i never accused you of being a traitor. and i certainly didn’t trash the american worker as you have now done several times.
simple fact, jason: you could get rid of the workers, and nothing would get done. or you could get rid of the executives, and all of the sudden “wealth creation” would take on an entirely new meaning.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:45 amJason,
One form of social investment goes on here everyday. It’s the reason why when some of us commenters are impersonated by whackjobs, it’s picked up immediately, and recognized for what it is. It’s also why you are told to go f*ck yourself on a regular basis.
Try not to think about it too hard, you’ll pop a vein.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:46 amJuan is more of a man than you’ll ever dream of being.
Comment by Zooey
Oh, Zoo! :D
September 5th, 2006 at 12:47 amYou know, my manhood questioned by others is one of the 25,000 things I dont give a damn. But thanks anyway. You are too beautiful to defend me. :)
You used to be an informed debator – I am surprised that you employ petty mockery to gain points with the women on this board,
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 5, 2006 @ 12:34 am
There is nothhing to debate here. You are subjecting us to a lecture on your greatness. Don’t be surprised if someone mocks you.
And you seem to think others’ actions are geared towards “gaining points” with the opposite sex. How very Freudian.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:48 am#663, Gregor,
Hello. Good to see you back.
I understand that others might see my statements as disparaging, when I am simply trying to show people a path to improve their own situation. Juan William’s book “Enough” is saying the very same tough things to the black community that I am saying here. Don’t wait for the government or some corporation to take care of your needs – seek out the training to improve your value in the marketplace – period.
It is OK if someone didn’t realize the importance of training before, but now that they know, they should pursue it aggressively.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:48 amJason -
Since when have Republicans taught anyone to do anything? Are you talking about the Peace Corps., Headstart, or any other social programs Republicans want to do away with? You are mouthing what you’ve been told.
What I want to know is, has Richard Clarke said anything about this film? Since he’s in it, I would love to hear his take on it.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:49 amJuan,
You are secure in your manhood, no doubt. Jason, on the other hand…
(Hand, being the key word…)
September 5th, 2006 at 12:50 amIt just kills Dems that Reps are so successful in their personal lives.
what kind of f-ing nonsense is this? some of the things these wingers come up with are truly astounding… just shows the ignorance…
September 5th, 2006 at 12:51 am#666, progrex,
I have seen what the “workers” will do when venture capitalist dump money on “workers” who want to play exec – they ruin their careers and hurt their vendors and customers. Unless you’ve done it – don’t talk about it.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:52 amMy comments about my successes are to refute disparaging statement, sorry if that makes you feel insecure.
Me, insecure? Who are you, my oldest brother? Your comments about your successes is a fine example of you feeling insecure. Your posts about Muslims is a fine example of you being afraid, your posts about evil unions is a fine example of you being ignorant, your posts with flirty remarks is a fine example of you, insecure with women…so take a pick.
Capitalism and wealth creation have created a high standard of living for everyone in the US. Even the most poor Americans are doing better than those in North Korea or other former communist third world nations.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Keep on that. Lets see where that takes to.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:52 amI understand that others might see my statements as disparaging, when I am simply trying to show people a path to improve their own situation.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 5, 2006 @ 12:48 am
Your comments are disparaging. You are not trying to show people anything -or rather, you think you can do it by humiliating. Hardly the sign of a caring individual.
You take much glee in pointing your success and the unfortunate situation of others. If you want respect, treat others with the same.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:54 am#671, rosie,
Republicans prefer to give business tax breaks for hiring / training employees to work in actual enterprises, instead of creating government training programs that produce “workers” with little value in the marketplace – thanks for playing…
September 5th, 2006 at 12:54 amGoodnight Juan, katy & all,
Gotta get to bed. Sleep deprivation ain’t pretty, and the judge scowls even more when I f*ck up.
It’s been fun!
Jason, make sure you send that $1 to the NAACP.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:54 amGoodnight Juan, katy & all,
Comment by Zooey
Sleep well, SuperZoo!
September 5th, 2006 at 12:56 am#667, zooooooooo
Thankyou for defining social investment for me…
It means chatting up people, so that one day, when you need them, they will support you. I know many people like that, who will persevere the most innane behaviour from others, just so they can use them later.
I simply prefer to be direct. I meet my responsibilities as an employee, a citizen, a Christian and a man, and expect the same of others – you needn’t chat me up if you don’t want to.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:58 am…Your comments about your successes is a fine example of you feeling insecure. Your posts about Muslims is a fine example of you being afraid, your posts about evil unions is a fine example of you being ignorant, your posts with flirty remarks is a fine example of you, insecure with women…so take a pick.
Comment by Juan C — September 5, 2006 @ 12:52 am
worth a repeat – so there!
woo hoo! way to go, juan!
that’s all for me… g’nite all…
September 5th, 2006 at 1:00 amI would have loved to go jet skiing or snowmobiling or bowling or whatever else you like to do, but I made self-improvement a priority, so don’t cry to me when you get downsized, if you didn’t do anything to prevent it, since you weren’t motivated to do so before.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 5, 2006 @ 12:24 am
Gee Hendler- if you weren’t such a dick I could feel bad for you. Never stopped to smell the roses. I am sure you would do it all over again–that is why I don’t feel bad for you. Why don’t you take what is left of your life and (don’t blow a gasket) and have some fun. This hate thing of yours is very sad-just kidding sick asses like you get no slack.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:03 amyour comments about workers are pretty telling, hintler.
condescend much? thought so. way to drop the christian bit in there as well. assume moral superiority, then go to war for jesus.
it seems to me a real christian wouldn’t be trolling around on a blog, deriding others and attempting to inflate their own ego by casting insults about.
but i know that the word ‘christian’ is now VERY relative. it could apply to almost any asshole.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:05 amoh – prog rex – i remember you said you may be moving back to the states, this area (Ill.) maybe? we’re seeing the signs of fall… hope you get here in time to see the beautiful fall colors… several weeks off, but it’s well on it’s way…
now i’m done…
September 5th, 2006 at 1:08 am#682, joe,
No, I did smell the roses, just not to the extent of those who didn’t plan for the future. I am just saying that you are going to have to give up your bowling night, if you want to invest in your own future.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:09 amIts all for me. Goodnight, everybody. Take care all.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:09 am#683, progrex,
LOL – I will have to put that line in my hip pocket …
September 5th, 2006 at 1:10 amG’night all, it’s been fun ….
September 5th, 2006 at 1:11 amthanks, katy…
i’ll be doing a bit of tennessee and a bit of indiana before heading off to law school in the pacific northwest.
and yes, i was hoping to get back in time for some autumn drives through the country.
goodnight all (well, it’s afternoon here, but whatever).
September 5th, 2006 at 1:15 amRepublicans prefer to give business tax breaks for hiring / training employees to work in actual enterprises, instead of creating government training programs that produce “workers†with little value in the marketplace – thanks for playing…
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 5, 2006 @ 12:54 am
Are you on crack or what? Let me guess it is worker training and tax breaks-very-very hot.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:18 amAh Joe, Jason supports coporate welfare over personal welfare….
September 5th, 2006 at 1:19 amI am just saying that you are going to have to give up your bowling night, if you want to invest in your own future.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler — September 5, 2006 @ 1:09 am
Jebus man-Not “Bowling night”. We here in corn stalk holler would be lost.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:24 amBoy this thread will pass 700 posts and go for the record of 800 huh?!
September 5th, 2006 at 1:31 amThe liberal blogs condemnation of this movie are good enough for me. It’s just another fascist attempt to herd the sheeple into right-wing lala land before the mid-term. Don’t let this director or ABC get away with it. Keep up the pressure to stop this propaganda from airing!!!
September 5th, 2006 at 1:46 amThey are showing it in Sydney Australia on Channel 7. The promotion states:
“A major new drama! The story of exactly what happened.”
What disturbs me is the timing – 10th Sep. Showing it at the same time as news replays of the planes crashing into the towers means the content of the docudrama will be subconsciously inserted into viewers minds as pure truth.
September 5th, 2006 at 2:01 amUnable to trust America’s media oligopoly, we’re desperately seeking the TRUTH in our ‎thirst for knowledge and news on the internet. The problem is; we’re so busy surfing for ‎more news that is easily found by a few strokes of our fingertips and instantly gratified by ‎reading the comments we post, there isn’t any time left to be politically proactive in the ‎real world. Perhaps this is the reason why we’re not marching through the streets, ‎demanding an end to George Bush’s tyranny… ‎
On the other hand, nine oligopolistic conglomerates controlling the media are antithetical ‎to the concept of America’s free press. Sophistically spinning in stunning stupidity, they ‎will continue to “balance the news” by avoiding the facts in contempt for truth. Are they ‎insulting our intelligence again or are they profoundly oblivious of the fact that unless ‎balance or fairness already exists — the news is derived?‎
The world is neither fair nor balanced but by providing information and knowledge, we ‎can make it better. — That’s the reason for reporting the news! Instead we are offered the ‎opinions of pundits and corrupt politicians spewing intolerance, racism, hatred, and ‎misogyny in lieu of facts. By allowing the casual displays of mendacity, malevolence and ‎cruelty to continue unabated without regard for journalistic integrity, America’s media ‎oligopoly has created the politically divisive atmosphere that’s now infecting our country.‎
September 5th, 2006 at 2:41 amI agree with most all of you! Never. ever, ever watch ABC again. This will drive them into the sewer and they will have to accept money from the same advertising entities that do so well on Fox cable. By god, them damn ABC conservatives will… actually prosper. Must be some damn Carl Rove conspir…wait, got tin foil in my mouth, hurts fillings….there. better… and did I mention that Dick Cheney is reported to own a TV that will actually be able to pick up this ABC illegal transmission? We all know that this conspir……wait, more tinfoil…. that’s better….we all know that Dick Cheney will use this undocumentery as an excuse to launch cruise missiles on the Clinton Library.
September 5th, 2006 at 2:48 amPerhaps we should suggest to them that to show a film that, by the admission of its maker, is not a documentary, so close to the election, is irresponsible. Most of their viewers will not understand that it’s “not a documentary”. We could give them an out by suggesting that they “postpone” showing it until after the election. While we understand that they are corporate stooges, if one makes a good-faith effort to give them a positive way out, the chances of getting this stopped improve from nil to minimal. The idea of making a real documentary about how the millenium plot was foiled is also a good one, as is asking them to create a documentary by their employee Richard Clarke that tells the truth.
September 5th, 2006 at 2:49 amOh, and what the hell is a Trinary…triniary, titrin….wait, tinfoil again…. sockpuppet? And all this talk about socialism, progressives are not communists, they are socialists. Get with it, they will not become communists….well, untill they are in power, like Cahves ya know.
September 5th, 2006 at 2:59 amYou are not building new planes, nor are you increasing the money making capacity of airplanes, so you are not “creating†wealth.
Comment by Jason M. Hendler
Now we’re in my court. And your crap about American manufacturing is truly pathetic. I fabricate aircraft parts for a living, and although I make a comparatively good wage, if it weren’t for the union shops, my wages would be much lower. Oh, and if you didn’t know: if you’ve flown commerially in the past ten years, chances are very good that the plane you flew on had parts on it i made. We also do defense work, which I won’t, of course, talk of here, but we produce parts that no other company in the world can reproduce for the same cost – and aircraft companies we supply would never trust asian suppliers – their quality control sucks. So your crap about American workers is just that, you elitist twerp.
September 5th, 2006 at 3:03 amThis will drive them into the sewer and they will have to accept money from the same advertising entities that do so well on Fox cable. Comment by Uncomfortable truth
Ha, Ha, Ha, that’s a good one. Fox revenues are down, as are their viewers. Olbermann beat O’Reilly in the latest ratings, And pretty boy Hannity is also tanking. How’s it feel to get pantsed by your own strawman?
September 5th, 2006 at 3:09 amWhat’s the matter Jason? I’m one of the “producers” you talk about – a blue collar worker, who does the night shift in an fabrication plant. Wanna compare productivity?
September 5th, 2006 at 3:16 amBarfly- the way jason made it sound early was like the workers where he was employed were all standing around slack-jawed waiting for him to come up with a “technological breakthrough” “we can’ts dur this here wurk till that smart feller jason invents dat nuw technolergy.” What a tool! Blue Collar = America
September 5th, 2006 at 3:27 amYou are not building new planes, nor are you increasing the money making capacity of airplanes, so you are not “creating†wealth.
If the plane doesn’t fly it doesn’t make money, ergo you must have competent mechanics or your airline will go tits up in a heartbeat. One major crash, from a mechanical error, will cost you way more in the long run than to pay a decent wage.
Go ahead Jason buy an Airplane and see if it will fly, and be profitable, without someone to sign off that logbook.
I can produce work without a manager or CEO, a manager or CEO can produce nothing without us. The CEO of any company could quit today and the company would still function. It won’t function without workers to exploit.
I have gotten rid of all my car payments, credit cards, I use as little gas as possible, and I refuse to shop at corporate giants such as walmart, I give my business to the mom and pop operations, and I don’t want to work in an office with jerks like you Jason
September 5th, 2006 at 3:56 amYou are not building new planes, nor are you increasing the money making capacity of airplanes, so you are not “creating†wealth.
Your a moron, Airplanes don’t age like cars and they can be Zero time overhauled. An airplane that is paid for, years old, is more profitable than a new plane. Such is why we put the CFM engines on the Dc-8s and UPS flys them still today. They are profitable because they are paid for and they are economical even though they were built decades ago. And FYI we also did the mods on the FEDEX 727’s making them profitable by changing the engines and pylons. You saying that mechanics don’t create profit is total crap.
September 5th, 2006 at 4:02 amOh, and what the hell is a Trinary…triniary, titrin….wait, tinfoil again…. sockpuppet? And all this talk about socialism, progressives are not communists, they are socialists. Get with it, they will not become communists….well, untill they are in power, like Cahves ya know.
Comment by Uncomfortable truth
==
What the heck are you on about?
Are you aware of how many forms of socialism there are?
Please define ONE
Christian socialism
Communism
Democratic socialism
Libertarian socialism
Market socialism
Marxism
Revolutionary socialism
Social democracy
I never said Progressives were communists..I have said Bush is a commie but never a progressive. Trinary like Binary but three instead of two. Suka means parrot.
Tin Foil hats?
September 5th, 2006 at 4:21 amWell lemme see, I dont know any Aliens, I don’t do spells or chants or logos, I am not a qabbalist or shamanist, I don’t kiss rattlesnakes, I dont have any tin foil hats, I dont belong to any clubs or groups, I dont sacrifice animals, And I dont go on UFO hunts, I am not a Mufon, I have read alot about the Torah Talmud, greek myths and alot of that inane gemtria and magick sex crowley crap, but I don’t buy it, It is however useful to mess with idiots that do believe that crap,like you, Nor do I think I will go wafting off into la la land when armageddon comes, I am not into luciifer, and I don’t have any kind of mad sciientist tin foil hats at my disposal.
Any more stupid Q’s?
well, untill they are in power, like Cahves ya know.
A cahves? I suppose you mean Chaves?
I suppose you are talking about the Fabian society..I was replying too someone else that was a Fabianist, I read some of his Ricardian Ideology, that does not mean I agree with it.
September 5th, 2006 at 4:36 amI have also read the quran and have posted stuff from that, But that in no way makes me a muslim anymore than it makes me fabianist. I also read the Morals and Dogmas of the Scottish rite by Albert Pike, but I have never been, or plan on becoming a mason. Jeeeezzz =)
I tried to make it to 800 posts! =..0(
dint make it..
September 5th, 2006 at 4:53 am“docudrama” what on earth is that and why would anyone take such a thing seriously? That’s like Newstainment! Oh wait, we have that already. It’s called Fox.
September 5th, 2006 at 5:17 amJason M. Hendler
So basically you are saying:
You are anti the middle aged American, you are anti the working American, and you are anti the thinking American. You are anti the Americans who are in the professional sector because they got educated at university, and the American labour that wants to actually get paid for its work. You are anti the young American who wants to get an education, and the old American who wants to retire.
Tell me, Jason, what Americans are you not anti?
September 5th, 2006 at 5:55 amABC should give up it’s “family oriented” (”Desperate Housewives”) programming to FOX and take a dive into this type of programming.
September 5th, 2006 at 6:08 amMy bad, they still believe in “America’s Funniest Home Video”.
The hard core day’s of “20/20″ are long gone.
ABC is very two-faced.
#711, Bruce,
I can see where you would call me anti-baby boomer, or by a stretch of the imagination, anti-working American, but the rest is just flat wrong.
As for anti-working American, I am trying to explain to union workers, that unless you are in fabrication, assembly or processing, you are considered a cost to business, not a “wealth generator” or a “value-add”. Moreover, if you want to increase your salary / benefits, then seek training / education, that would make you a greater “wealth generator” or “value-add”.
It is true that their are jobs that pay well that are NOT “wealth generating” or “value adding” – they are cost reducing, which ultimately means your salary is capped by the amount of costs saved. If you learn a skill or trade that is actually “wealth producing”, your salary / earnings are unlimited.
Claiming that “workers” should be paid more, simply because execs are, cannot be justified, because most workers don’t generate enough wealth to justify the salary. It’s fair to say that some execs don’t either, but if they are good execs, like myself, they certainly do.
September 5th, 2006 at 8:26 amAnd how exactly is post 713 related to the original topic?
September 5th, 2006 at 8:30 am#706, Trin,
As I stated in my complete post, which you intentionally omitted from your quote, I stated that if you WERE involved in building new planes or upgrading old ones, then those activities WERE “wealth creating”, so congratulations, you, during that time, were part of the solution.
Fortunately, there were execs who crunched the numbers, arranged the financing and closed the contracts to lead your company to make those upgrades, keeping you gainfully employed.
September 5th, 2006 at 8:31 am#704, buzz,
NO
It was much worse. Engineering management was running around on fruitless efforts, over-exercising their student engineers. I first focused a few of the engineers on much simpler approaches that were truly commercially viable. Subsequent designs built on that, becoming more repeatible and reproduceable, through my recommendations.
September 5th, 2006 at 8:40 amBOYCOTT the sponsors of this Swift Boat garbage. Write letters to every sponsor informing them of your boycott. That’s what the rignt wingers do — let’s give them a taste of tehir own medicine.
September 5th, 2006 at 8:43 am9/11 happened on BUSH’S WATCH.
September 5th, 2006 at 9:23 am9/11 happened on BUSH’S WATCH.
9/11 happened on BUSH’S WATCH.
Better read your Labor history. The standard of living didn’t rise until workers unionized. Unregulated Capitalism creates vast wealth for the few and slaves out of the many.
Your solution for workers consists of them increasing their value through education. But your solution for Corporations is to outsource jobs to foreign countries where labor is cheaper. At some point, when enough jobs will be outsourced the consumer base will no longer have enough wealth to sustain the economy. The tax base will collapse, while Bush’s burgeoning deficits will come due. The seeds for the destruction of America have already been sown.
September 5th, 2006 at 9:26 amYet on another thread you prayed to Reagan, et. al. You kind of forgot the 1st and greatest Commandment, according to Christ.
Tell me, have you given all you have to the poor? No? Then how do you meet your responsibilities as a Christain?
What do you do to feed the poor? Tend to the sick? Clothe the naked? Visit the imprisoned?
September 5th, 2006 at 9:29 amReally Jason: What population group within America are you pro? You see engineers as added cost. You see Unionised workers as being nothing more then crooks. You see other executives as being sell outs, you are anti the baby boomer generation (Which, I am guessing you either belong to or are the generation your parents come from.) You support the Republicans who have upped taxes on all workers under 17, and you support the same guys who cut university funding for loans and bursaries. Even professionals such as scientists and such don’t escape your scorn.
Indeed, you basically applaud the exporting of American jobs overseas as being “cost saving.”
So seriously, Jason, what Americans aren’t you anti?
September 5th, 2006 at 9:48 amJason I want to take that question as an honest one. Because we on the left, we have been called anti-American every time we have criticised the American president, whatever we were criticising him on. We have been called Anti-American for every time we have argued in favour of Americans, not America true, but Americans.
Leftwing stances have all been designed to benefit the actual people of America. We may not have always been right, and frequently we have stuffed up, but our arguments have always been for the people. Yet, we always seem to get called anti-American. Now it is time for us to ask the question, what Americans are we anti and you pro? Which Americans are we supposed to be so violently against? Because shit knows, under a Republican government which has wiped its arse with the civil rights of Americans, we aren’t the ones who are anti the principles America once stood for.
September 5th, 2006 at 10:06 amAnyone still wondering how explosives could have been planted prior to the towers falling should look into Marvin Bush, George’s younger brother who was head of security at the WTC at the time. DING-DONG!!!
Meet the Bush Family and the Carlyle Group:
September 5th, 2006 at 10:13 amhttp://www.brasscheck.com/videos/911/9118.html
Marley
If they wanted to bomb the WTC they would have just bombed it. They wouldn’t have flown two planes into it, Bush wouldn’t have gone into hiding like the damned chicken that he was, and the effect would have been exactly the same.
Unlike Unbelievable I am not an expert on anything, but I do know people. The Republicans at the time were chickenshits, and chickenshits wouldn’t have gone into hiding after staging an event like that, they would have gone into Photo-opp hyperdrive immediately instead of waiting till they thought it was safe.
September 5th, 2006 at 10:20 amI would boycott ABC over this but I don’t watch it anyway because all they air is crap.
I’m really glad the Food Network doesn’t show right wing propoganda, I’d hate to have to boycott them.
September 5th, 2006 at 10:26 amIt’s amazing that people can look at the video footage of 9/11 and not see the same thing. Like not seeing plane wreckage in the Pentagon. Or not see plane wreckage in Pa. Do you really think they just melted away? And as far as not getting attacked again. Don’t worry Bush and “The Dick” Cheney will attack us again and soon.Thats why they have been telling us this last month that the boogieman is still out there. I think a nice October surprise is in the making. It will creat a draft, and it will give the neo-cons more power to claim “National Security” and the November elections will be postponed till further notice. That is so the Democrats won’t have the majority and no impeachment trials will take place. And as far as this docudrama it’s probably bullshit anyway. Just like the movie Flight 93 was a “make you feel good story” and WTC movie too
September 5th, 2006 at 10:28 amWonder why TP yanked the post about Richard Clarke’s response??
September 5th, 2006 at 10:47 amum… i still see it…
September 5th, 2006 at 10:50 amABC IS A DISGRACE TO PROMOTE THIS REPUBLICAN AGENDA. IS THERE ANYONE WHO IS ORGANIZING A BOYCOTT OF SPONCERS OF THIS SHOW?
September 5th, 2006 at 11:09 amYeah, it’s back now. Maybe my browser ate it for a couple minutes.
September 5th, 2006 at 11:11 amBlame Clinton first…
ABC is going ahead with it’s right-wing-penned Clinton hit piece on September 10 and 11….
September 5th, 2006 at 11:22 amvoxpopuli – i see that the picture on this thread was changed, from the movie poster graphic to TPs TELL THE TRUTH graphic…
September 5th, 2006 at 11:32 amcould be the source of the confusion…
[...] In order to commemorate the upcoming 5-year anniversary of September 11th, ABC plans to show a “docu-drama” entitled “The Path to 9/11” that attempts to place the blame for the events in large part on former President Clinton. A blog that had been set up to support the program was recently pulled by ABC after it was subjected to a large amount of protest expressed there over the right-wing slant of the presentation despite ABC’s claim that the docu-drama shows “an objective telling of the events of 9/11.” A full copy of the blog as it appeared before being pulled can be found here. [...]
September 5th, 2006 at 11:34 amkaty
It had been taken down briefly. I noticed it too, but it was put back soon after.
September 5th, 2006 at 11:36 amCan anyone say whether the so-called ABC “docudrama” answers the questions about why the NORAD pilots and other US security pilots did not automatically scramble as they should when they saw “strange things” going on with huge jet airliners flying of-path or predetermined flight plans? I have watched so many news shows and blogs looking for an answer to this???
September 5th, 2006 at 11:44 amLenni
If they wanted to bomb the WTC they would have just bombed it. They wouldn’t have flown two planes into it, Bush wouldn’t have gone into hiding like the damned chicken that he was, and the effect would have been exactly the same.
…. The Republicans at the time were chickenshits, and chickenshits wouldn’t have gone into hiding after staging an event like that, they would have gone into Photo-opp hyperdrive immediately instead of waiting till they thought it was safe.
Au contraire mon cher… they knew exactly what they were doing. An event of that magnitude was exactly what was needed to justify and unfold their war profiting scheme…
One other thing you may want to reflect on….
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/articles/2002/6/2/62018.shtml
On Sept. 6, 2001 2,075 put options were made on United Airlines, and on the day before the attacks, 2,282 put options were made on American Airlines.
Using the United transaction as an example — the 2,075 put options, with each put option representing 100 shares of stock — indicates that someone controlled 207,500 shares of United. The stock dropped from $31 to $18, giving the speculator a $13 profit.
The action in the American Airlines is equally unspectacular – at least by industry standards where the big players may pick up or drop hundreds of millions in such transactions. Between United and American, about $22 million in profits was made on the put options.
September 5th, 2006 at 11:57 amNo one will be watching this piece of agit-prop, not even the most diehard repug because Sunday night Football starts on NBC. All the jocks will be tuned into seen Madden and his flunky, Michaels. These clowns don’t know that Murcans have turned the page. To paraphrase, 9/11 is so 2001.
September 5th, 2006 at 12:50 pmYour a moron, Airplanes don’t age like cars and they can be Zero time overhauled. An airplane that is paid for, years old, is more profitable than a new plane. Such is why we put the CFM engines on the Dc-8s and UPS flys them still today. [. . .]
Comment by Trinary Suka — September 5, 2006 @ 4:02 am
Trinary:
At my company, we’re fabricating parts using Douglas aircraft blueprints and templates dated 1964!
September 5th, 2006 at 12:57 pmTrinary:
At my company, we’re fabricating parts using Douglas aircraft blueprints and templates dated 1964!
Comment by Barfly
September 5th, 2006 at 1:11 pm==
Cool.
But this is quite true of Airplanes, I worked overhauling the Kc-135 refuelers in Alabama for a while and alot of those Airplanes are equally as old and many are still in excellent condition.
CIA had low-level spies inside Al Qaeda three years before attacks. … Bush Admin gags Sibel Edmonds from speaking to 9/11 Commission about attack …
http://www.envirosagainstwar.org/know/read.php?itemid=3586
so here is yet another thing that wasn’t included in the 911 report and that won’t be incorporated into this docu-lie
September 5th, 2006 at 1:18 pm[...] and here. [...]
September 5th, 2006 at 1:20 pmIf they wanted to bomb the WTC they would have just bombed it.
Scroll back thru the posts and look for the Rodriguez story, there was an explosion in the basement before the plane hit burning a worker at the basement level..
September 5th, 2006 at 1:21 pmABC is claiming that they’ve been accused by the right of bias against Bush, but I’d sure like to know where. Every conservative pundit and blogger seems to be dancing in extacy over this thing.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:28 pmI used the contact form supplied by ThinkProgress to inform ABC that I have called my cable television provider and have had the signals to ESPN, ESPN2, ABC Family, ABC and Disney removed from my cable package. And I also told them that my family is through vacationing at all Disney owned resorts.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:31 pmI urge everone else to do the same.
Jasonic Conservatism is a sickness.
http://www.guardian.co.uk/usa/story/0,12271,1017546,00.html
Study of Bush’s psyche touches a nerve
Julian Borger in Washington
Wednesday August 13, 2003
The Guardian
A study funded by the US government has concluded that conservatism can be explained psychologically as a set of neuroses rooted in “fear and aggression, dogmatism and the intolerance of ambiguity”.
As if that was not enough to get Republican blood boiling, the report’s four authors linked Hitler, Mussolini, Ronald Reagan and the rightwing talkshow host, Rush Limbaugh, arguing they all suffered from the same affliction.
All of them “preached a return to an idealised past and condoned inequality”.
==
See the sickos;
* epublican judge Mark Pazuhanich pleaded no contest to fondling a 10-year old girl and was sentenced to 10 years probation.
* Republican Party leader Bobby Stumbo was arrested for having sex with a 5-year old boy.
* Republican petition drive manager Tom Randall pleaded guilty to molesting two girls under the age of 14, one of them the daughter of an associate in the petition business.
* Republican County Chairman Armando Tebano was arrested for sexually molesting a 14-year-old girl.
* Republican teacher and former city councilman John Collins pleaded guilty to sexually molesting 13 and 14 year old girls.
…and many more…Jason will soon be one of these people if he isn’t already
September 5th, 2006 at 1:39 pmAs if that was not enough to get Republican blood boiling, the report’s four authors linked Hitler, Mussolini, Ronald Reagan and the rightwing talkshow host, Rush Limbaugh, arguing they all suffered from the same affliction.
All of them “preached a return to an idealised past and condoned inequalityâ€.
==
See Jason, your a condoned inequalitist. So much for the talking points of the GOP, “Freedom Equality, Brotherhood”
Its hegelian lies.
Some kind of sick twisted meritocracy runs thru the type of mind that you have.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:42 pmYou people are about the creepiest folks I have ever had the mispleasure of working with..
Why can’t we all pick one of the sponsors and email them AND DO WHAT WE SAY….boycott them. And by the way if we had an email link we could tell ABC that network is a bunch of trash anyway we are going to boycott that. The republicans get what they want. Look at Woopie Goldberg being pulled from Slim Quick because she made comments about bush at a PRIVATE PARTY. This piece of trash movie is going out over the network. No wonder people are moving to cable TV. The shows have better content, well written and do not try to get viewers by showing sensational crap.
September 5th, 2006 at 1:58 pmDefensive fighters that a few years earlier scrambled in only eleven minutes manage the threat posed by golfer Payne Stewart’s plane but on 9-11 were unable to get off the ground because of the following (actual testimony at the 9-11 Commission Hearings) 1: Planes were directed at Russia, not toward interior of our country (My comment: unless of course it is a golfer maining the controls – but if it is terrorists – hey no response)
2: NEADS (Northeast wing of NORAD) did not have the phone number for Andrew AFB nearest field to Washington D.C. (My Comment: Yeesh, 34 trillion spent on defense and their phone rosters are clumsy?)
September 5th, 2006 at 2:14 pmABC’s parent company, Disney, attempted to kill Michael Moore’s movie “Fahrenheit 911″ because it was deemed to politically partisan.
September 5th, 2006 at 3:18 pmWhy, now, has Disney become so willing to air the partisan works of a right wing extremist?
There is a shameless duplicity at work here.
Carol Dagg Sterritt:
September 5th, 2006 at 3:27 pmThanks. This is the first info I’ve gotten. I read once, I can’t remember where, that NORAD pilots and commanding officers had pre-ordained (if that works as a word) orders to scramble (they have radar of their own to look at) when they percieve a threat to the USA. And, remain in contact with commanders for instructions even as they scramble, head for the “threat area,” make reports, recieve change-of-orders etc, all in the name of time-saving to lessen any threats to the US, and be on-site should the threat turn out to be real. Anybody hear any of what I just wrote? (Still, shouldn’t they have scrambled after the fact, in case other “planes” were in-coming “bombs.?)
Lenni
Eisner has previously denied that there was anything sinister about Disney’s (ABC) decision to block distribution (of Fahrenheit 911). “We’re such a nonpartisan company,” he said. “[People] do not look for us to take sides.”
September 5th, 2006 at 3:40 pm[...] Two days after it was taken down without explaination. Drop by and make your voice heard. (Be polite.) 4:28 pm | Comment (0) [...]
September 5th, 2006 at 4:29 pm9/11 was a midEast “terrorist” retaliation in response
to Dick Cheney’s 1990-91 treacherous, no honor, FASLE
LIBERATION of Kuwait as sure as Oklahoma City was a
domestic “terrorist” retaliation for treacherous US
Federal Crimes at Waco Texas.
Waco was planed under the Cheney Bush41
administration… and handed to Clinton as an
inauguration present.
Why was Cheney’s, 1990-91 Desert Shield, Desert Storm, Highway of Death, Gulf War, a false liberation of Kuwait?
Because it was not the first time Saddam had moved his troops to the Kuwaiti border, in all previous manuevers the US administration had issued clear warnings not to invade Kuwait or else… Sadam always was deterred and backed down…. this time, Cheney was admonished by Colin Powel, Paul Wolfowitz, and the Rand Corporation military Think tank to warn Saddam of Cheney’s plans…. Cheney refused to deter Saddam as had previous US administrations…. Saddam took that, and had good reasons to take as an okay, especially in light of Galespie’s representations and Bakers representationsas a go ahead to anex Kuwait…
Cheny failed in his duty to the human race to deter, at least try to deter saddam… so Cheney can “liberate” Kuwait….
after Saddam crossed into Kuwait Cheny flew to Saudi Arabia to scare the King into accepting Cheney’s protection plan, it was based on satelite images represented to be Iraqi troops on the Saudi border… the picture were of the Kuwati border…
This information was published worlwide in late 1991…. it did not take long for the MidEast militents to decide on a “terrorist” retaliation against the US, it took many trys and ten years later they succeeded on 9/11 making Cheney’s False Liberation of Kuwait fiasco a complete failure for the US…
September 5th, 2006 at 4:51 pmIn Short Dick Cheney’s 1990-91 MidEast Treachery caused the 9/11 “Terrorist” Retaliation
As sure as Waco caused the Oklahoma City bombing.
Waco was planned under the Cheney Bush41 administration and handed to Clinton as a Inauguration present.
Cheney is a war Criminal and should be prosecuted…
Truth Justice and Capital Punishment is our American Way.
I used to be against capital punishment until this administration.
The US needs a National Public Hanging Monument in Washington DC with a perpetual swinging noose for all elected and appointed government adminisTraitors.
September 5th, 2006 at 5:00 pmI’m waiting for the real documentary. You know, the one that explains what really happened. The one that holds the right people accountable – OUR GOVERNMENT. Anyone who doesn’t know how complicit they were must be watching too much Rush. Oh, wait a minute……..
September 5th, 2006 at 5:02 pmBarb E., I’m with you- the real documentary is out, it’s David Icke’s “The Matrix”; He goes a little crazy at part three, but the deal is that 911 was a psychological attack on the american people by the US govt. to further their agenda without hinderance! wait, someone’s knocking on my door
September 5th, 2006 at 6:03 pmI believe that ABC should be boycotted. No Grey’s Anatomy, no Desparate Housewives, not until this ridiculous advertisment for the neocons is pulled from airing next week. NO ABC viewing.
September 5th, 2006 at 6:12 pmThe ABC blog is back up and running, but it is moderated and they don’t seem to be posting comments that have been sent in today.
September 5th, 2006 at 6:24 pmThough it was apparently not posssible for any of the steel to have reached such temperatures even given the large quantity of jet fuel and furniture, … supposing the steel columns at the core had reached 1400C for 10 full floors… How does one explain that the remaining lengths of the steel columns disintegrated?
I mean this would leave 500+ vertical feet of columns that should have remained in lengths > 20 feet, eh?
September 5th, 2006 at 6:32 pmWe at The Moderate Independent (http://www.moderateindependent.com) reported long ago about how Disney is using its ABC assets to push right-wing propaganda from coast to coast. From WABC radio in NY, to KABC in LA, Disney operates right-wing only propaganda outlets that have people like Rush, Elder, Hannity, etc.
And remember, Disney has twice tried to put Rush Limbaugh on mainstream sports programs, first as a Monday Night Football commentator (deeming Rush to controversial they went with Dennis Miller instead, who became a right-wing propagandist as well on his later MSNBC show.) Then, Disney did hire Rush for and ESPN football commentary show (he got fired for racist comments about Eagles quarterback McNab after just weeks.)
Notice how Disney twice tried to put him in as a “sports” commentator. They make clear that they want propaganda snuck into entertainment events.
Add to this that Disney refused to allow distribution of Michael Moore’s film, claiming it wanted to avoid political commentaries even as it operates its right-wing talk radio 24/7.
We also reported a couple years back how Peter Jennings said he was bullied to the right by the people at ABC.
If enough people are interested I can repost the stories or you can find them in our archives.
ABC is propaganda, NBC obviously is if you see its MSNBC right-wing-liars-only line-up. FOX is obvious, CNN is owned by TIME Warner, which is in large part controlled by the same Saudi Prince that vows to keep FOX in Rupert Murdoch’s hands.
To sum up, by no surprise, the entire “liberal” corporate media is nothing but corporate, right-wing propaganda 24/7.
Tom Bico
September 5th, 2006 at 6:40 pmBy the way, we had a petition drive against Disney for airing right-wing propaganda like this a while back. We can reignite it if enough people show interest.
September 5th, 2006 at 6:42 pmTK- Bomb sniffing dogs were removed from the towers Sept. 4. Witnesses and NYFD personnel reported charges going off in sucession just like any building being demolished. The planes in question had flown much too far before being “turned” around to have a substantial amount of fuel to burn more than a couple floors. Proven- both buildings fell at a rate faster than the constant speed of GRAVITY, as seen from demolishment of old buildings for the purpose of making a nice, neat pile as seen on TIME magazine that day. FELONY- All the material (forensic evidence)from the buildings was removed from the scene within days and taken OVERSEAS to be incinerated, of of this against federal law. It goes on and on and on, my friend.
September 5th, 2006 at 6:43 pmCheck out “9/11: Press for Truth†at http://www.911pressfortruth.com. There you’ll find some excellent reviews recieved thus far and between this Thursday, Sept. 7th and Sept 11th there will be over 25 screenings in cities and towns across the country. It’s true Clinton botched ops to get OBL. We mention this briefly. But wait until you see, in this 85 min. documentary, Seymour Hersh talk about the airlift of 5000 al-Qeada and Taliban out of Kunduz and into Pakistan! And all the warnings pre-9/11 and how the Commission only answered 30% of the very incisive questions posed by the 9/11 Family Steering Committee. DVD of this doc released today. Here is the next INCONVENIENT TRUTH. Enough of the lies and deception about 9/11. The truth is we need a new investigation. And such an investigation must examine the evidence in the context of a history of false flag terror attacks “a la NATO and CIA tied Operation Gladio in Italy in which the far right killed 80 at a Bologna rail station and blamed the Communists in order to tighten their grip on control in Italy. DEMAND ALL CANDIDATES TAKE A POSITION FOR OR AGAINST RE-OPENING THE INVESTIGATION into the Sept. 11th attacks.
Check out: http://www.911pressfortruth.com. Buy the DVD, host a house party in October or next week as we deliver a copy to every member of Congress. The Commission perpetrated the worst cover-up in American history. Now is the to uncover the next inconvenient truth all American must face. And that is: “Case NOT closed” “We must re-open the investigation”.
Listen for Paul Thompson on the Randi Rhodes Show at 4PM on Thursday. He’ll be talking about the issues the film raises for an hour. Check out the screenings near you at our website.
Best regards.
September 5th, 2006 at 6:52 pmLooks like someone high up somewhere is afraid of going to jail. Time to blame it all on Clinton.
September 5th, 2006 at 6:56 pmHere’s ABC’s Paul Harvey on the glories of genocide:
http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/columnists/ericzorn/weblog/archives/2005/06/paul_harvey_ah.html
September 5th, 2006 at 7:01 pmI wonder if Tony Snow’s comments on the cause of 911 were also included in the documentary. You know, where he said that Bush, Sr was the cause?
September 5th, 2006 at 7:27 pmComplex, multi-layered conspiracies by an American President and his corrupt administration involving at least hundreds, if not thousands of people, and multiple branches of the government all designed to blow up our own military and financial centers and kill thousands of innocent Americans. Yet none of the people involved in this super-secret conspiracy are talking. These posts are kooky.
Have an open mind and type in “debunking 9-11 myths” in Google. There are all sorts of legitimate professionals spending valuable time debunking all of your crazy theories. After that, read a few of the translated statements from Osama bin Laden from the 90s to today. It doesn’t take a super-genius to figure out what kind of world he and his followers are after, yet few of you are talking about what’s really going on in the world. We’re all in this together.
If you’re not willing to try to keep an open mind and consider the broader world outside of right-wing/left-wing US politics, the rest of us at least hope that you’ll please try to move on with your lives . . . because you guys are really starting to scare us with your nutty conspiracy theories.
Occam’s Razor
September 5th, 2006 at 9:01 pmevolution’s a theory, so is gravity. Nothing I offer to say is a theory, it’s all fact. You scare me!
September 5th, 2006 at 10:53 pmWhen will the Project for the New American Century be given it’s rightful place on the airwaves, mainstream or otherwise, as a conspiracy for American, sorry, Capitalistic domination of the planet. These guys, the neo-cons, are no more American than the Nazis they’ve stolen the playbook from. They are dummying down the kids, putting America so far in debt that deals will have to be made, keeping the populace afraid of everything nand everyone especially that they’ll lose their ability to buy and sell (America’s only true Freedom) and are getting ready for martial law. They keep their money overseas and no longer believe in the boundaries between countries or that they are beholden to any country especially the USA. Globalism. On this 5th Anniversary of 911, cute,
September 5th, 2006 at 11:39 pmremember the Reichstag!
Pure right wing pro-Bush propoganda!!! They’ve re-written history to suit themselves many times before. Nothing new here, but it needs to be stopped. ABC would never consider broadcasting Fahrenheit 9/11 on the public airwaves. The mainstream media is impotent in finding/reporting the truth about anything other than a hype story like Jon Benet Ramsey. They keep their head in the sand, distort the facts and serve their masters well.
September 6th, 2006 at 3:19 amWhat a disappointment!! To think that ABC plans to show all it’s viewers a so called “docutmentary” that is made up of half truths! The plan to send
this misinformatio to high Scholls is beyond belief!
September 6th, 2006 at 3:44 am
Jihadis. These are our enemies — from Mohammed Atta and company to the Butchers of Beslan, to the throat-slitters in Karachi and Baghdad and Mindanao, to the bombers of Bali, Madrid and London, to their funders and imams and enablers worldwide. They are not “freedom fighters” or “militants” or “rebels” or “evildoers” of unknown geographic and religious affiliation.
September 6th, 2006 at 6:01 amTwo questions:
Why don’t we *all* watch it and see what the outrage by the Left is all about?
Do you really think Clinton should be held above any criticism?
Collin
September 6th, 2006 at 8:14 amhttp://evangelicalperspective.blogspot.com
So sad, Disney will get a complete boycott from me.
September 6th, 2006 at 8:47 amTwo more questions: What do you leftists think about the fact that one of your own, Oliver Stone, will endorse this ABC project this week? Were you aware, also, that the production company that made Al Gore’s movie, “An Inconvenient Truth” is endorsing it as well?
September 6th, 2006 at 9:00 am776 Victor: I thought Oliver Stone was a wacko lefty? At least that was the story wingnuts used to claim. I guess that was another repug lie. As for a production company “endorsing” the movie–welcome to Murica, Victor. Companies are in the business to make money and if they think money will be made, they’ll endorse it.
Now, when will you address the lies in the movie such as switching the Washington Times screwup into the Washington Post and the complete lie about Sandy Berger hanging up his phone? And why is it that only Repugs are involved in the production of this phony story?
September 6th, 2006 at 10:22 amI’m intrigued that this film was produced by Cyrus Nowrasteh. His father, Daryush Nowrasteh was my direct supervisor at Madison Area Technical College in Madison Wisconsin in 1990.
I became aware that Daryush Nowrasteh was an Iranian ex-Patriot. He was a former Vice-Chancellor of the University of Tehran and even had pictures on the wall of his home showing him receiving awards from the Shah. Daryush Nowrasteh and his family came to the US in the late 1970s as the Shah fell.
I remember he would brag that Cyrus was a producer for Falcon Crest. I haven’t followed Cyrus’s career closely, but I suspect his family history might contribute greatly to his perspective on 9/11.
I for one am deeply suspicious about this “docu-drama”. The idea that a docudrama would be presented as news strikes me as deliberate propaganda. I’m very curious about who decided to fund this and how they decided who would be allowed to see it in advance. It sure looks like a deliberate attempt to influence election results.
September 6th, 2006 at 10:28 am9/11 Conspiracy
Here are some 9/11 conspiracy videos. The first is a link to a full-length documentary called “Loose Change” (click on the link and follow the link to the video):
http://www.loosechange911.com/
Other shorter 9/11 conspiracy stuff I also found interesting:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sc2lih2qjEg
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HXpcnhwFlIA
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iF8-8Kaa8jo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vBVVs9hcmRY
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mmvGFVr6KNk
September 6th, 2006 at 12:42 pmMichael Moore’s films were made for theaters, for a public willing to pay $9 a pop (or more) to see them. They were unapologetically left-wing – you knew from minute one where the slant was. They raised legitimate questions, although it was obvious some items included were taken out of context for use.
This movie, however, is being presented on the small screen, available in nearly every household without having to buy a ticket, without needing cable or satellite (not counting regions with no reception). It is being touted as unbiased and accurate, despite being a drama. It does not reveal that its creator is devout right-wing and it did not allow unbiased previewers to see it. To say that this is not unlike Michael Moore’s films and equally fair play is truly beneath contempt.
Like him or not, Michael Moore made no bones about his intentions with his films. Viewers went into them knowing his perspective. It was up to them to decide if he was right or not. Not this film – this film will allow watchers to believe that it is fully documented and fully factual and will have a far wider audience potential than anything Moore has ever produced. For that reason alone, it should be pulled from the lineup. For that reason alone, it and ABC should be boycotted.
September 6th, 2006 at 1:10 pmPlease do not air this ludicrous “teledrauma” to the American people. Unfortunately, some in this society believe everything they see on TV and will not be able to discern the truth.
September 6th, 2006 at 2:20 pmI compiled as much information as I could, and below is an article that is a call to action – and you and I, your neighbors, and everyone else you know of can stop this “Docudrama” right in its tracks!
What it will take is solid proof and information, and a plan for Americans to protest this perversion of reality and propaganda from reaching those who are unaware – which could influence the November elections! Don’t let them get away with it, and for once, we can make a difference – and fast!
It’s up to all of us who want to make a difference – and in this case, it very well could be the difference that will help to swing the November elections solidly to the Democrats! Don’t allow Bush, ABC, and the Disney Corporation to get away with this – and fight like you’re fighting for the America we all remember – the one we had before President Bush took office!
William Cormier
September 6th, 2006 at 4:20 pmhttp://www.justanothercoverup.com
[...] And: Under Fire, ABC Yanks Official Blog of 9/11 Docudrama [...]
September 6th, 2006 at 4:42 pmMy wish is that if ABC run this movie knowing that they are falsely accusing Elected Officials or anyone, then my wish is that the peoples that have been fausly accused should file a law suit against ABC for slander.
September 6th, 2006 at 5:28 pmIt isn’t true, nor entertaining. Please don’t show it….
September 6th, 2006 at 7:09 pmProven- both buildings fell at a rate faster than the constant speed of GRAVITY
Comment by Brandon Kosbab — September 5, 2006 @ 6:43 pm
There isn’t a fixed ’speed of gravity’, as falling objects accelerate for each second that they fall.
That means that the height that the towers fell would be naturally faster than most structures since they were two and three times higher than most skyscrapers. The “speed of falling” actually varies based on the length of the fall. It’s why gravity is measured at 32 ft/s2 – in which it is squared because falling objects accelerate, about 22 mph for every second that it falls. And considering that buildings are 95% air, there wasn’t a lot that was falling, giving it a greater distance – and therefore time – to fall (was about 5 stories when condensed. From 110 constructed).
From http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gravity :
“In physics, gravitation or gravity is the tendency of objects with mass to accelerate toward each other.
Earth, is surrounded by its own gravitational field, which exerts an attractive force on any object that comes under its influence. This field is proportional to the body’s mass and varies inversely with the square of distance from the body. The gravitational field is numerically equal to the acceleration of objects under its influence, and its value at the Earth’s surface, denoted g, is approximately 9.81 m/s² or 32.2 ft/s².
This means that, ignoring air resistance, an object falling freely near the earth’s surface increases in speed by 9.81 m/s (around 22 mph) for each second of its descent. Thus, an object starting from rest will attain a speed of 9.81 m/s after one second, 19.62 m/s after two seconds, and so on. ”
Nothing can fall faster than the “speed of gravity”…
Ya’ll really should learn something about the applied versions of science and not just the concepts. It’s the applied versions that are the reality.
September 6th, 2006 at 7:51 pmThis movie has not been shown yet!!! I am new to reading Blogs and in all my 63 years, I have never read such tripe as I have read here. Where do you people come from??? Wait and watch the movie, think about what you see, read unemotional, factual history and then provide intelligent comments. Otherwise, this type of Blog is simply mindless entertainment.
September 6th, 2006 at 9:13 pmDan G,
The contents of this movie have already been discussed in many arenas. You are just displaying your ignorance.
We have every right to be upset at the airing of a misleading propaganda DRAMA that in all likelyhood was designed to trick people.
We know that only about 10% of people get their news from non-mainstream sources and generally believe what they watch on ABC without qeustion.
If you weren’t “mindless” you would understand and be digusted too.
September 6th, 2006 at 10:06 pmit’s doubtful the film is barely historically accurate,
given that many of the major principles, mostly
democratic weren’t given an opportunity to review the film.
Bush failed us, his policies cost a fortune and lead to ruin.
blaming 9/11 is more of the same.
NO ACCOUNTABILITY.
what a great gift from ABC to the GOP prior to the election.
September 6th, 2006 at 11:04 pmat the expense of American citizens and truth.
Thinkprogress.org
Dan G,
We’re about the same age, and I understand your point. Democrats, too, spend far too much time talking rather than listening, and too often entirely among themselves.
But there’s some reason for fanning this fire a bit at this stage — ABC has integrated an “educational” component and has claims it is founded on the 9/11 Commission Report.
If there are significant factual discrepancies, and apparently there are, that’s just plain disingenuous, and this needs to be pointed out to viewers and teachers (not to mention children exposed to the materials) *before* they are exposed to whatever emotional influence the drama may have. Or maybe so they can take at least mental notes. (As a kid I always preferred reading histories rather than historical novels, because without the benefit of many other sources on the subject over time, I’d forget what was fact and what was fiction.)
I’ve read the Report, have you? There’s still time before the broadcast. I’m certain it will make the broadcast all that more interesting to you. In fact, the Report itself reads as quick and intensely as any crime drama. And pretty much everyone agrees, it’s true.
September 7th, 2006 at 1:18 amIt’s been more than 4 years since Bush implicated himself as having been ‘in the loop’ on the very beginning of the supposedly-secret 9/11 attack.
It’s been at least 3 generations that Democrats have been letting Bush Skull And Bones members get away with TREASON.
DEMAND THAT YOUR CONGRESSIONAL CANDIDATE QUESTION BUSH ABOUT HOW HE SAW THE 1ST WTC IMPACT, ON TV, BEFORE HE ENTERED THAT CLASSROOM THAT MORNING, 15+ HOURS BEFORE THE ONLY KNOWN VIDEO WAS SHOWN ON TV
September 7th, 2006 at 4:43 amPlease DO air this deceitful peice of trash as it will bring you down to the level you deserve.
September 7th, 2006 at 10:45 amDo not forget however,misleading the public on this issue has become increasingly harder since we have all for the most part educated ourselves on the topic.
To air this will send your ratings in the same direction as the gop is headed now and for the same reason.
Americans are tired of being lied to and have become too good at spotting lies associated with 9/11 for you to even try to rehash this distorted misinformation.
So go ahead, air the LIE.
Take a gamble,jump on the slippery slope,lie to the American people so they can see that YOU, like the GOP feel we are ignorant.
What a bunch of cry baby liberals
September 7th, 2006 at 12:03 pmYou are all lucky Clinton was not in office on 9/11 becuase he would still thinking about what to do. GOD BLESS AMERICAN
It’s not an accident that ABC kept this “docudrama” under wraps long enough to keep Dave Brock and MediaMatters from “Sinclairifying it” with a boycott–or at least a noise counterspin campaign.
So they get away with it, as the so called “left” in our nation lays down, bends over, and asks to take another one up the south side once again. You think this transparent smear doesn’t have Karl Rove and Ken Mehlman all over it? Look at the players; look at the timing; look at the venality.
With tricks like this so easy to pull off, we are just doomed to be victims unless we finally jetison the Pelosis, Reids, and other ineffectual nobodies and get some real leaders who can find a pair and challenge this kind of maloderous manipulation with more than just pat, dismissive rhetoric.
Democrats winning one or both houses in november will probably do little more than temporarily stall the inevitable death march to the right which this country seems to be on. The right wing noise machine owns the media, and this is merely the latest example of just how low they will sink to help maintain the GOP’s hegemony, which ensures the media’s monopoly and their combined impact on our national soul.
September 7th, 2006 at 12:06 pmDisney needs to “tell the truth” as well…..
Burbank, CA 91521-0001disney.com USA +1.818.560.1000
This is just insane and these folks, as well as all the sponsors like Scholastic, need to understand that we are not going to take this!
September 7th, 2006 at 12:22 pmAnd now, President Bill Clinton is weighing-in on the matter, demanding that ABC either change the “docudrama” or pull it alltogether. Make those calls to Disney and ABC and help stop this terible piece of propaganda. The Neo-cons even plan to show it in our Schools!
This is a matter of great importance to our country! It’s time to make a difference!
JAC
September 7th, 2006 at 12:57 pmhttp://www.justanothercoverup.com
Would someone please supply a list of sponsors so we can launch a full fledged boycott? Thanks — Kate
September 7th, 2006 at 1:14 pmAppears to me a lot of cry baby leftists don’t really believe in freedom of speech, or freedom of the press. Calling for censorship is not a heroic act.
A truly informed opinion can only be formed if all points of view are allowed to be aired.
September 7th, 2006 at 1:25 pm/\
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We have a word for Republicans calling for free speech. We call them hypocrites.
September 7th, 2006 at 2:26 pmCORRECTION:
I got a bad number from the Internet for Disney Corporation:
My Apology
September 7th, 2006 at 2:38 pmThe nuts in my family will believe everything on the show. They never watch any of the news. My son still swears 911 was done by Sadam. The Christians in our family cheered when we were going to war. Ask them any question about what is going on and they can only answer with propaganda from the right.
September 7th, 2006 at 5:59 pmThis movie should not have been made. M. Albright and S. Berger both wrote detailed letters to ABC noting that “their†portrayed actions were fiction. Unsophisticated types will watch this movie, it will fulfill their prejudices, the facts and the fiction will blend over time, and less than a year from now we will be hearing strong and angry arguments purporting that Albright and Berger and Clinton in fact carried out the behaviors in the film. This is called propaganda. And a good part of our population is unable to discern this. We are not accustomed to having to watch for “nuance†and out-right misrepresentation. We came out of WWII proud, with many accomplishments and values supporting fairness, transparency, and honesty. Those values are no longer with us, just as our news organizations no longer have to provide public-affairs programs or news in the spirit of informing the public; those laws were changed. So now we have a movie, one that ABC both claims is closely based on the 9/11 commission, takes you behind the scenes to experience the world inhabited by the powerful, and disclaims that it is not in any way to be interpreted as a documentary of real events. That is propaganda.
September 7th, 2006 at 6:00 pmThis is ABC cashing in on 9/11. Why did’t they make a REAL documentary??!!! Shameful.
Yeah right! Sandy Berger was caught stuffing documents into his sox
September 7th, 2006 at 6:13 pmbecause the Clinton administration had nothing to hide about their inept
and self serving role in the whole affair. I will be sure to instruct my students to take a long and critical look at ABC’s program, and compare with
documented factual events like the Berger episode. I reccomend that anyone interested in finding out more about this read “Losing Bin Laden”
by Richard Miniter.
The eight-hundreth comment!!!
September 7th, 2006 at 6:26 pmName calling is childish remay1!!
Free Truth is more important than lies, even if it is free speech!
Wow! Talk about people who feel free to make criticisms of something they haven’t seen. As someone who has previewed it, who is neither a liberal OR conservative I must say it gave a different view. Shame on you all for the judgement you feel so free to pass along. So the liberal (and yes it is liberal) media has rogue among them who chooses to show something from the other side… yes boycott them… but remember that is about all you should be calling for in your reaction because after all… Farenheit 911 etc has time and time again shown the other side and no one called for censorship. Use your power of the dollar… don’t watch, but don’t bitch if you don’t watch it
September 7th, 2006 at 6:31 pmWe have seen Michael Moore’s movies without public-requested editing, so now let’s see “The Path to 911″ without editing.
If it is fictional, or dramatized, then so be it.
If any politician wants to cut something out of any movie, then I am all for NOT cutting ANYTHING out!
September 7th, 2006 at 7:55 pmWow the headline screams in rage over the blog being pulled… but it’s ok to censor the film?
September 7th, 2006 at 8:10 pmAt what point do we apply our values???
I’m all for free speech, after Bill tells them to tone it down.
Show me that First Amendment thingy…. oh never mind…where’s that petition so that I can sign off my dissaproval of somthing Iv’e not seen.
Its so confussing….
Mabe I’ll just try to let someone else do my thinking….I’m at a loss as when to apply my core beliefs….
Poof
Easy to remember that ABC bagged a good TV show. Bill Maher’s
“Politically Incorrect” as a result of Maher’s misunderstood
remarks about the 9-11 terrorists. This was a sharp edged
near news show that made a real effort to be even handed and
fair. Failing to stand behind Maher was craven, and likely biased.
Evidently they pushed Ted Koppel off of “Night Line” to create the currenty
wattery version I have stopped watching.
There is plenty of good factual matterial about 9/11. Nerves are still raw about it. at least here very few miles away. If it lives up to the “biased and not factual” hype, it will be a good time to give up on this network.
I like Jimmy Kimmel and watch his show freqeuntly, Desperate housewives, some, and a few others. Has ABC just found a way to stop me? Maybe.
I understand that “Scholastic” has dropped their plans to
September 7th, 2006 at 8:19 pmuse the docudrama as the source of educational matterial
saying it’s not up to their standards. Maybe we should take
our cue from them about it’s acuracy.
People may be born equal but not all ideas are born equal. Regarding #799: Freedom of speech is abused when facts are misrepresented. Free speech cannot turn a lie into the truth no matter how often it is repeated. That is the current method of the Republicans in power now, and it is high time that journalism starts evaluating people’s statements instead of just giving them equal time.
I spent two hours watching ABC last night so that I could write to all their advertisers informing them that brand loyalty ends when political untruths are outrageously used on the 5th anniversary of the tragedy of 9/11. Such “free speech” is repugnant and offensive to the memory of those who died on 9/11/2001 and to the memory of those who have died since in service of their respective countries.
September 7th, 2006 at 9:36 pmPath to 9/11
Please show the entire movie without ‘Clinton’ or ‘Bush’ cuts. Trust the author’s judgement. I’d like to make my own judgements without someone else limiting what I can see.
September 7th, 2006 at 9:47 pmClinton, is a weakling of a President. This mini-series will awaken many people that Clinton is responsible for 9/11.
September 8th, 2006 at 12:55 amCome on now people. I could just say “Bush is an idiot!”, but that wouldnt really mean anything exept that I dont really have any facts to back my opinion up, so I’m resorting to name calling. If you think Clinton was responsible for 9/11, give me some facts to back that up. And in the mean time, go watch this video , which will show you exactly why Clinton wasn’t responisible for 9/11. And if you dont believe the claims in that video, instead of just calling people “wacko conspiracy theorists”, do the reaserch yourself and disprove it.
September 8th, 2006 at 1:35 am/\
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Sorry, some kind of problem with the HTML. The link is
September 8th, 2006 at 1:38 amI guess the site isnt working or something. The link is http://www.loosechange911.com
September 8th, 2006 at 1:40 amI guess the site isnt working, links wont appear. The site is http://www.loosechange911.com.
September 8th, 2006 at 1:43 amI find this so amusing that Clinton has his panties in a twist over something Hollywood has done? Clinton was never proficient in international policy and I have to say that he was not well versed in domestic policy either. I voted for him twice despite friends discouraging me who haled from Arkansas, however after Monica I decided to change my party to suit my principles, not my principles to suit the party and no I am not a Republican. Perhaps you all should find something better to join than the Grassy Knoll Society. This is not a conspiracy stunt and 96% of the docudrama is correct. I am an American citizen but of Palestinian heritage and from what I hear from relatives and friends living under the boot of the Israelis ( Bill’s friends ) they are laughing at this ridiculous waste of time. Did Bill get tachycardic over Michael Moore’s Farenheit 9/11 when he won an academy award for a documentary which it was not. Fair is fair! What man is a man that does not make the world better? Move on people and address something more important than Bill’s hurt feelings.
Assalamu Aleikum
September 8th, 2006 at 10:05 amListen I am an Independent and can’t stand Politics. Although, I do have to say, if Michael Moore can create his Bush bashing films than why not this guy have the right to? I am so sick of everyone pointing fingers at everyone. If they all came together, maybe the world would be a better place.
September 8th, 2006 at 10:41 am-Tim
I was directed to this site while searching for truths that surround 9/11. Sadly it contains all of the lies that I was expecting to find from right wing conservatives. I guess if I really want the truth about what happened on and before 9/11 I will just have to stick to http://www.loosechange911.com . One last point to ABC….although you could care less about just one citizen, hear this: I will never again tune my tv to ABC and I will encourage everyone I know to do the same.
September 8th, 2006 at 10:43 am“Regarding Fahrenheit 9/11, Michael Moore’s searing indictment of the Bush administration’s handling of 9/1l, Iraq and the fight against terrorists, many conservatives have been making comparisons to this documentary in their defense of ABC’s planned docu-drama, The Path to 9/11. Yes, America is, thankfully, the land of freedom and free speech. But the key difference here is that Moore made a privately-financed film which people had the option to pay to see if they so chose. To the contrary, ABC broadcasts over the public airwaves, which is a privilege, not an entitlement. That’s why there’s equal-time and other FCC guidelines they must adhere to. Though they might like to in effort to further a partisan agenda, these networks like ABC do not get to arbitrarily use our public airwaves for self-serving political purposes.”
September 8th, 2006 at 11:25 amThe Congressional democratic leadership wants to pull “Path to 9/11″. Why? Because the progresso-democrats know this docudrama will make their party look weak on national defense. What happened to the first amendment to the U.S. Consitution, democrats?
September 8th, 2006 at 12:39 pmSo now all you liberals know how conservatives felt when rotundman produced his highly edited slopumentory “Fahrenheit 9/11â€. How does that proverbial shoe taste, hmmmm?
September 8th, 2006 at 12:53 pmThat’s really weak. Hey, don’t watch it. Nobody is holding a gun to your head. Can’t stand it when conservatives fight back, can you. BTW, Mr. Moore used the same “public airwaves” to advertise his movie. He also was extremely adept at getting face time and editorial coverage on many of these same channels of communication.
Propaganda is the name of the game. Don’t like it? Go live in a cave.
September 8th, 2006 at 12:58 pmI have to wonder how many of you that are attacking ABC & Disney for the “inaccuracies” of the Path to 9/11 were attacking that moron Michael Moore for his Fahrenheit 9/11???
September 8th, 2006 at 1:02 pmI have to wonder how many of you that are attacking ABC & Disney for the “inaccuracies†of the Path to 9/11 were attacking that moron Michael Moore for his Fahrenheit 9/11?
—————————-
Did you have to pay to see Moores films? Yes
Do you have to pay to see this? No
Are there any commercials for this? No.
A Free film for our EDUCATION in an election cycle. How Kind of ABC.
WHO IS PAYING FOR THIS FREE EVENT? Why we no Democrates allowed to even see the damn thing.
What do you take me for?
Sorry pal but this aint IRAQ yet. There are TOO damned many fishy points to this thing. Given Bushes track record I vote that this film is right wing PROPOGANDA. My TRUST IS WAY WAY PAST GONE.
And you are DAMNED right I’m going to criticize it. It smells of wet Rove.
September 8th, 2006 at 1:48 pmWhat happened to free speach? Should ABC have the right to say what they want to about 9/11? What about Micheal Moore, I did’nt hear the same objections to his lies.
September 8th, 2006 at 1:51 pmTo paraphrase Paul Tsongas, if anyone really believes that ABC is dominated by conservative Republicans, we have counseling available for you. The truth, of course, is that ABC News is overwhelmingly dominated by men and women of the Left, and employs just one token conservative commentator (John Stossel).
The fact is that George W. Bush’s first fiscal year began 10/1/2001, which was AFTER 9/11/2001. The ship of state does not turn on a dime. On Sept. 11, 2001, the budgets and most of the operational priorities of the U.S. government had been determined before GWB took office.
Unfortunately, some folks here are so wedded to their prejudices that when the evidence doesn’t match their preconceptions they automatically insist that the evidence must be “A LIE.” There’s a name for that mindset. The name is “reactionary.”
-Dave Burton
September 8th, 2006 at 2:38 pmResponse to David – Comment 825
Did you have to pay to see Moores films? Yes
Do you have to watch ABC? No
Do you have to pay to see this? No
I agree.
A Free film for our EDUCATION in an election cycle. How Kind of ABC.
Michael Moore’s Fahrenheit 9/11 wasn’t run during an election cycle?
WHO IS PAYING FOR THIS FREE EVENT? Why we no Democrates allowed to even see the damn thing.
I assume ABC paid to create it and you don’t have to watch it.
What do you take me for?
A flaming idiot.
Sorry pal but this aint IRAQ yet. There are TOO damned many fishy points to this
thing. Given Bushes track record I vote that this film is right wing PROPOGANDA.
My TRUST IS WAY WAY PAST GONE.
Thank God, President Bush is making sure the USA doesn’t become IRAQ.
The liberal left has been yelling about the poor job President Bush has done since he first took office.
September 8th, 2006 at 2:51 pmWhy do they yell about the President doing a bad job?
Because it takes more effort to tell a lie.
Has anyone contacted the FCC about this?
There has to be something illegal in this since it
is propaganda during an election year.
It amazes me how theis adminstration continues
to exploit all the victims and survivors of 9/11 for
their own causes yet, when Ann Coulter attacked
the widows of 9/11 not one person in the Bush
administration defended them.
The fact they have rewritten the 9/11 Comm. Report
I guess shouldn’t surprise us, this administration
will use every dirty trick they can.
Peter Jennings must be rolling in his grave.
September 8th, 2006 at 3:48 pmSo much for ABC “getting it right”. Can’t wait
to see who sues first.
Where is the ACLU when needed? The idea of political pressure influencing artistic talent is simply wrong! I don’t care if you are a Democrat or Republican, this is WRONG…. Why is Hollywood allowing politicians to exert influence to change artistic creativity. They were placed in power (past and present) by the people….. The people don’t want them involved in determining what is viewed on the public airwaves. We are NOT sheep!
September 8th, 2006 at 4:00 pmI will most definitely BOYCOTT products and services of all sponsors if this faux docudrama is aired. I never watch network news programs anymore because the truth is rarely aired. It makes me scared to realize the sorry intellectual state of a major portion of network viewers – you know, the kind of viewerss that like shows like Jerry Springer and cops – they’ll just eat this BS like popcorn!
September 8th, 2006 at 5:00 pmAmazing, simply amazing. When Michael Moore produced his distorted exaggerations (i.e. lies) no one from the Bush camp decried Moore’s spin and demanded that changes be made.
Now, ABC (which is not a card carrying member of the “vast right wing conspiracy) is making a movie on the build up to 9/11, and the Dem’s and Clinton’s team is all up in arms and demanding edits or to cancel the program? Something seems a bit fishy here. Maybe we should all watch it as it was originally filmed and make our own determination.
PS. I watched the Reagon movie and thought it was fine, so why not this? Maybe cable can pick this movie up and air it in its original form!
September 8th, 2006 at 5:05 pmIt seems to me that some folks are confused about the necessary distinction between fact and fiction, truth and lies.
A thing is not true because you wish it to be true. It is not a lie because you wish it were a lie. A thing is true, or it is not true, and if you cannot understand that basic foundation discussion and debate, you deserve to be heckled out of the arena of public debate.
This is as true for ABC as it is for any individual commentator who says “Ah got a RIGHT to my opinion.” To quote Harlan Ellison – a terrifyingly blunt critic of media since the seventies, by the way – “You don’t have a right to an opinion, you have a right to an INFORMED opinion.”
Or in other words, arguments based on ignorance, wishful thinking and sheer prejudice have no validity, no matter how hard you jump up and down and hold your breath.
To illustrate the difference, and the importance of the difference: in Bowling for Columbine, Michael Moore ambushed Charlton Heston. To do that, he represented himself – factually – as an NRA member. He did not introduce himself as a “Liberal Filmmaker” – and if Heston was ignorant of that, well, there’s a “failure of intelligence” for you. But the questions he asked of Heston, while pointed, were utterly legitimate:
“Why did you feel it was important to hold a rally in support of gun ownership in that city, just after the killings at Columbine? Didn’t it occur to you as being possibly insensitive?”
It should not have been a difficult question to answer, had Heston any compelling reason, or had he even thought about it for five minutes. After all, it’s his job to answer questions like that. Instead, he had a hissy fit about being treated “disrespectfully” and stomped off.
That behavior in response to a completely legitimate question is a fact. It’s not a very pretty fact, and it allows one to question the motives of the NRA in doing what they did. And surely it furthered Michal Moore’s agenda in including that “disrespectful” footage.
But it was not “a lie.” It was not a misrepresentation, either, unless you wish to suggest that Heston himself “misrepresents” the NRA and interests of US Gun owners.
Likewise, in Fahrenheit 9/11, the most devastating points are made by the very people crying (or having others cry) “liar, liar!”
But these were not “fictionalized;” Moore indulged in some arguably tacky stunts, like cornering legislators to hand them Army recruitment fliers and ask them if they were encouraging their own children to sign up for the war.
The results were, of course, predictable and hilarious. They were also real, factual, not contrived, not made up.
Of course, you can be sure that no reaction that did not fit his agenda hit the cutting room floor and was subsequently shredded with extreme prejudice. But then, he wasn’t pretending to present an “objective” vision.
ABC went further, claiming, initially the twin virtues of Objectivity and Factual Accuracy. Both of those assertions turned out to be – what’s the word?
Ah, yes. “Lies.”
Both Michael Moore’s work and this particular excrescence may be accurately called “propaganda,” in that they attempt to persuade you to hold one view of reality over another. The distinction here is that Moore’s is “White Propaganda” – which relies on telling inconvenient truths and ABC’s propaganda is of the Black variety, relying on getting you to accept at least one critical lie.
As to why the Liberal propagandist can use facts with such telling effect, while the Conservative propagandist must resort to fibs of such magnitude, I leave to the reader as an individual exercise.
But I will point out that no self-respecting or competent propagandist, black OR white, is foolish enough to craft a lie so easily disproved, unless they honestly believe that their “base” will actively prefer the lie to the truth.
That means, dear conservative commentators, that ABC, George W. Bush and his ilk all think that you are as gullible and unaware of the outside world as any preschooler.
You are being lied to, and in lying so blandly and baldly, they show you even less respect than the liberals they call “traitors.” Meanwhile, the hysterical equations of non-equivalents are as persuasive to real Grownups as any three-year old whining to the effect of “It’s Billy’s fault” or “Billy did it TOO!”
THESE are the heirs of Barry Goldwater and Teddy Roosevelt? What an excruciating embarrassment for our nation, that our very government hasn’t the wit or the will to be persuasive to anyone with an IQ that exceeds tepid water or ethics that would challenge a rutting goat!
xposted to graphictruth.
September 8th, 2006 at 5:09 pmgeez, listen the liberals whine….one show that depicts their liar in chief as (rightly) culpable in not fighting terrorism, and they all turn into censors and Joe McCarthy. Hypocrites all.
of course, we conservatives get slandered in every other hollywood movie produced, but apparently that’s just fine…..
September 8th, 2006 at 5:14 pmNow that we have audiotapes of Saddam and his top aides discussing his nuclear weapons development program, you would think that the Democrats who were saying “Bush lied” would be shamed into apologizing, or at least silence. You would hope that Joe Wilson would publicly admit that he was dead wrong about Saddam’s nuclear ambitions, too. Unfortunately, as far as I know, neither Wilson nor any other prominant Democrat to date has had the integrity to apologize, and few have even ceased repeating their false accusations.
The proven fact is that Bush was right, and Wilson and his cheering section were wrong. Only if you believe that the world would be no more dangerous with a nuclear-armed, Saddam-led Iraq, and a nuclear-armed, Gaddafi-led Libya, can you agree with those who say that our action in Iraq hasn’t made the world a safer place
Bush was right. Kerry was right, too — before he was wrong:
“Without question, we need to disarm Saddam Hussein. He is a brutal, murderous dictator, leading an oppressive regime … He presents a particularly grievous threat because he is so consistently prone to miscalculation … And now he is miscalculating America’s response to his continued deceit and his consistent grasp for weapons of mass destruction … So the threat of Saddam Hussein with weapons of mass destruction is real..” -John F. Kerry (D-MA) 1/23/2003
-Dave Burton
September 8th, 2006 at 8:35 pmdave at burtonsys dot com but please no spam
http://www.mooregop.org/WMDs_the_rest_of_the_story.html
Please don’t take this the wrong way but everyone needs to stop harping on 9/11. Stop televising the phone calls to loved ones. Let the families GRIEVE!!!!! I am all for “punishing” those responsible. JUST LET THOSE WHO LOST THEIR LIVES REST IN PEACE!!!!!!!!!!!!
September 8th, 2006 at 8:56 pmThis movie serves as a distraction from what would have been in the news, the 9/11 scholars who are labeled as the “9/11 truth movement” but is really the most amount of facts, moreso than the official story has provided, also notice how a new bin laden video comes out just when peoples faith in BUsh starts waining, or when election time comes, someday America will give the President so much power, they wont need, or get to vote anymore. Don’t think so? Well just proceed America theway your are, and the truth will surely reveal itself to you. Screw this movie and television altogether… ABC we all know you are slaves of a military government complex, you should kick the suits out and stop projecting the ionic lie they love to tell.
September 9th, 2006 at 12:56 pmFunny how the “progressives” posts on this site are not one bit hesitant to censor, boycott or ban free speech, the first amendment and opinions which don’t fit within their version of history, logic or political correctness.
September 9th, 2006 at 1:04 pmFunny how the liberal leftists, the Stalinists, the Clintonistas, the “progressives,” the democrats are so quick to call Bush a liar when unproven allegations are made against him, but fail to possess the integrity to admit they were wrong, like when we found WMD’s in Iraq.
Funny how they will constantly state as if fact that, “the war on Iraq is unrelated to the war on terror,” in spite of the fact that hundreds, perhaps thousands of Al Qaeda terrorists have been killed or capture in Iraq.
Funny how the opposition party in this country sees the current administration, America, capitalism, the government, Christians, Jews and Israel as the enemy, and yet are seldomly critical and are often empathetic of the Islamists and terrorists who are, well, the enemy.
Some questions to ponder –
Why is it that dozens of people can be killed hundreds wounded in a car bomb in Baghdad but the main concern for the left in this country is giving constitutional protections to the terrorists we’ve captured in Guantanamo? Who’s side are they on?
Why is it the lefts “war heroes” support the war on terror, but are against the war? Support the troops yet call the marines terrorist? Call the terrorists freedom fighters? Are for homeland security but against the Patriot Act, foreign surveillance, CIA interrogations and “profiling”?
Sometimes I think the democrats and the left in this country are their own worst enemy, but sometimes, I fear, they will wrest control of one or more branches of government again, and become — our own worst enemy.
September 9th, 2006 at 3:11 pm
Funny how the only time the right-wingers come massing out of their dark cracks and corners shouting about “free speech” is when it concerns right-wing lies. This issue isn’t about free speech it’s about truth and lies.
Funny how the only WMD’s found in Iraq were ancient, unusable, and known to the UN weapons inspectors who had done their jobs so well.
Funny how the Senate Intelligence Committee just released a report stating unequivocally that there was no connection between Saddam’s Iraq and Al Qaeda.
Funny how since our invasion and destruction of Iraq, islamic terrorism has been on a rise across the world especially in Afganistan (remember Afganistan?).
Funny how the world sees the current administration as the biggest threat to world security.
Some questions to ponder:
Why does the right wing wrap itself in the flag and Christianity, but insist upon trampling the Bill of Rights and the spirit of the Declaration of Independence? Why does the right wing promote the display of the Ten Commandments in government offices yet is opposed to every effort by the government to promote the erradication of poverty and disease and environmental destruction and has never seen a weapons program it didn’t like? How come the second chapter in the War on Terror was called Shock and Awe?
I sure as hell hope that we, progressives, will wrest control of our government from this present hoard of ignorant oil barrons and put us and the world back on the road to a Great Society!
September 9th, 2006 at 3:25 pmCorrection to last line in #841:
September 9th, 2006 at 3:30 pmShould read: “horde of Ignorant oil barrons”
After carefully going over most of the available information, it now is apparent that right-wing Evangelical Christians were behind much of the ABC/Disney Docudrama. It took some correlating, but most of the most current info is here:
Right-wing Evangelical Christian’s War on Democracy!
It looks as if the Blogoshpere is having a major impact – but the fight isn’t over yet!
September 9th, 2006 at 5:54 pmLooks there’s a a lot of whining by the neorepublicans…The neocons couldn’t get anything on Mike, because he had all of his facts checked before publication. What he presented was a documentory, and what was in it was the truth. There is one hell of a difference between a biased movie that is depicting something as important as the 911 tragedy without any regard for the truth, and a low budget film that had to be produced out of the country because the Corperate media wouldn’t do it. If there was anything in Farenheit 911 that wasn’t the truth, Mike would have been buried in legal suits. Why don’t they put this movie on Fox News, and leave it there for the folks who enjoy koolaide.
September 10th, 2006 at 12:19 amComrades Bravo!
These traitors at ABC are betrayers of our new mother land. Where I come from, this Robert A. Iger would be dragged through the streets in front of the tomb of our glorious leader Vladimir Lenin and shot in public. The producers, directors, writers and anyone associated with this propaganda would be picked up in the early hours of the morning by our State Security Chief Lavrenty Beria (The Black Hand) and taken to a Siberian labor camp never too be heard from again.
For many years I have been loyal to ABC and the Pravda (truth) that our Socialist Liberal ally has put forth in order to progress our ultimate goal; the decline and absolute destruction of America and the capitalist traitorous pig’s like ABC.
I ask you Mr. Robert A. Iger, “Have you no shame Sir�
Comrades, we must not give up the fight. It has taken us many years to groom you and your elected leaders.
Remember what our great leader Nikita Khrushchev said:
“ We can’t expect the American People to jump from Capitalism to Communism, but we can assist their elected leaders in giving them small doses of Socialism, until they awaken one day to find that they have Communism ”
It’s more important now then ever before that we stand together and stay focused! We can not allow this abomination of propaganda to go forward.
We must do whatever it takes to keep this film from airing on Sunday the 10th, 2006, we only have a few hours left.
It is your duty as loyal Liberal Socialist Democrats to rise up in solidarity and put a stop to this immediately!
Senator Harry Reid, one of our courageous and distinguished Senatorial leaders from the state of Nevada, reminded the capitalist traitorous pigs at ABC of their license from the FCC. Please Senator Reid, we’re your loyal comrades in arms and begging you to use all the glorious power you possess. You must stop this film! You must push forward with an iron fist and crush this despicable display of propaganda.
If this film isn’t stopped from airing on ABC, Sunday night, I’m afraid all our efforts since the cold war and the aspirations of our great leaders from glorious years past and Nikita Khrushchev’s dreams and predictions will have been lost.
If we loose now, the great Liberal Socialist Democratic Party, we have nurtured, will decline into the ash heaps of history never too be heard from again.
You must!…. I repeat, you must contact our comrades in arms at their offices in Washington.
Now I’ve done all the work all you have to do is contact our comrades below by e-mail or call:
Clinton, Hillary Rodham- (D – NY) Class I
476 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-4451
Web Form: clinton.senate.gov/contact
Reid, Harry- (D – NV) Class III
528 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3542
Web Form: reid.senate.gov/contact/email_form.cfm
Kerry, John F.- (D – MA) Class II
304 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-2742
Web Form: kerry.senate.gov/v3/contact/email.html
Landrieu, Mary L.- (D – LA) Class II
724 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-5824
Web Form: landrieu.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm
Levin, Carl- (D – MI) Class II
269 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-6221
Web Form: levin.senate.gov/contact/index.cfm
Rockefeller, John D., IV- (D – WV) Class II
531 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-6472
Web Form: rockefeller.senate.gov/services/email.cfm
Schumer, Charles E.- (D – NY) Class III
313 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-6542
Web Form: schumer.senate.gov/SchumerWebsite/contact/webform.cfm
Kennedy, Edward M.- (D – MA) Class I
317 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-4543
Web Form: kennedy.senate.gov/senator/contact.cfm
Feinstein, Dianne- (D – CA) Class I
331 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3841
Web Form: feinstein.senate.gov/email.html
Leahy, Patrick J.- (D – VT) Class III
433 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-4242
E-mail: senator_leahy@leahy.senate.gov
Stabenow, Debbie- (D – MI) Class I
133 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-4822
Web Form: stabenow.senate.gov/email.htm
Durbin, Richard- (D – IL) Class II
332 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-2152
Web Form: durbin.senate.gov/contact.cfm
Lincoln, Blanche L.- (D – AR) Class III
355 DIRKSEN SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-4843
Web Form: lincoln.senate.gov/webform.html
Feingold, Russell D.- (D – WI) Class III
506 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-5323
E-mail: russell_feingold@feingold.senate.gov
Harkin, Tom- (D – IA) Class II
731 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3254
Web Form: harkin.senate.gov/contact/contact.cfm
Bayh, Evan- (D – IN) Class III
463 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-5623
Web Form: bayh.senate.gov/WebMail1.htm
Biden, Joseph R., Jr.- (D – DE) Class II
201 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-5042
E-mail: senator@biden.senate.gov
Boxer, Barbara- (D – CA) Class III
112 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3553
Web Form: boxer.senate.gov/contact
Menendez, Robert- (D – NJ) Class I
502 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-4744
Web Form: menendez.senate.gov/contact/contact.cfm
Nelson, Bill- (D – FL) Class I
716 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-5274
Web Form: billnelson.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm
Obama, Barack- (D – IL) Class III
713 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-2854
Web Form: obama.senate.gov/contact/
Byrd, Robert C.- (D – WV) Class I
311 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3954
Web Form: byrd.senate.gov/byrd_email.html
Cantwell, Maria- (D – WA) Class I
717 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3441
Web Form: cantwell.senate.gov/contact/index.html
Conrad, Kent- (D – ND) Class I
530 HART SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-2043
Web Form: conrad.senate.gov/webform.html
Dayton, Mark- (D – MN) Class I
123 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-3244
Web Form: dayton.senate.gov/contact/email.cfm
Dodd, Christopher J.- (D – CT) Class III
September 10th, 2006 at 6:31 pm448 RUSSELL SENATE OFFICE BUILDING WASHINGTON DC 20510
(202) 224-2823
Web Form: dodd.senate.gov/index.php?q=node/3130
While they are duking it out about this one, I’d recommend picking up United 93 on DVD. And if you need a theme song, here’s an unofficial one:
United 93 (Unofficial Theme Song for DVD)
words and music by Dr. BLT (c)2006
http://www.drblt.net/music/unitedninetythree.mp3
Also, feel free to check out my 9/11 podcast, which features songs from my 2001 retrospect CD, One September Mournin’
Bruce
September 10th, 2006 at 7:57 pmaka Dr. BLT
Blog n Roll Artist
I will just bet that the people critizing The Path to 9/11 believed all the Michael Moore lies in his smear piece.
September 11th, 2006 at 8:38 amI never realized that there are so many hate-filled in our country.
The bashing of conservatives OR liberals should not come from a decent society.
Tonight the focus will be the failures the Bush administration made.
Will you defend him also, or will his failure to act be true .. but the Clinton failures still be lies??
September 11th, 2006 at 8:49 amWell david, it is truley amazing how the liberals cry when they are beat at thier own game!
You are however right about one thing…..this “Ain’t” Iraq, and it never will be! The age of the liberal democrat, who never has a plan for anything except raising taxes and using fear as a weapon against true capitolism, is coming to a close! The legacy of Clinton {and his administration} is on it’s way toward the truth, and that is simply this:
The only plan Clinton had while in office was go get sex from interns and monitor the polls so he knew which lie to tell next! He wasn’t on the job to stop the spread of Terrorism, he was in the closet getting a blow job.
Do your homework and stucy the findings of the 9/11 commission and you’ll see just how much of this “Docudrama” is actually factuall.
September 11th, 2006 at 8:54 amLiberals and political correctness have doomed this country.
September 11th, 2006 at 8:38 pmWhy don’t we just bend over and surrender now to the Moslems? Nothing can get achieved with politicians running this country.
WE NEED REAL LEADERS WHO ARE NOT AFRAID TO DO WHAT IT TAKES!
I applaud ABC for a very good movie based on the 9/11 commission report. It was excellent and I am glad to have gotten a chance to watch it in it’s entirety. It neither blamed no one imparticular, just reflected on the problems that led up to the attack.
I was really expecting a documentary like all these people were crying about and I expected to see more against Clinton and Bush themselves but it was none of the above. Thanks ABC for letting me make up my own mind about the movie, after all we are free to make our choices in this day and age and it’s pathetic that so many have to be biased before they even see the movie.
Again great job!
September 12th, 2006 at 10:57 pm9/11 is a tragedy some get to live with forever, without having ABC piling on top. I have long abhorred the endless memorialization and the use of this tragedy by the media.
September 13th, 2006 at 12:32 pmI was wondering why so many of these comments were posted BEFORE the docudrama even aired. Did they have a private showing? They must have listened to Billy Boy as he complained about it being lies – like, isn’t that a little like the pot calling the kettle black? Who committed perjury while under oath?
September 13th, 2006 at 2:53 pm[...] ABC has already had to take down the blog for the mini-series, due to too many people asking questions that expose the fictional nature of the ‘docudrama’. Funny that, since they seem to be waffling themselves between how ‘factual’ the mini-series is. [...]
September 17th, 2006 at 3:42 amI just don’t have anything to say , but shrug. So it goes. Not much on my mind recently. I can’t be bothered with anything recently.
December 26th, 2006 at 11:53 am