Fox Guest: We Should Ignore McCain Since He ‘Was So Traumatized’ By P.O.W. Experience
Fox Guest: We Should Ignore McCain Since He ‘Was So Traumatized’ By P.O.W. Experience
Last night on the O’Reilly Factor, former New York Senator Al D’Amato (R) and Bill O’Reilly debated Sen. John McCain’s (R-AZ) insistence that the U.S. follow the Geneva Conventions in its treatment of all detainees. D’Amato said McCain should receive “a pass on this” because he was “so traumatized by the events that took place” during his captivity in the Vietnam War. The trauma, D’Amato argued, put McCain in such a mental state that he was not in “a position to consider the impact of what his restrictions would do.” Watch it:
Despite the right-wing’s attempts to smear him, McCain has maintained a position that is guided by his personal experience and knowledge of torture. Here’s what he told CNN’s Wolf Blitzer when asked recently why he was arguing for the Geneva Conventions even though his captors tortured him.
BLITZER: When you were a POW in Vietnam, you weren’t accorded the Geneva Conventions. You were brutally treated and tortured.
MCCAIN: But later on in our captivity the Vietnamese changed our treatment rather dramatically. There was also an American that was captured in Somalia not that long ago where he was being mistreated, and we insisted he be treated according to the Geneva Conventions Common Article 3 and he was. And he was later released. We have the moral high ground because we adhere to the Geneva Conventions. And we’re not like these other countries, and we understand that al Qaeda would never observe it. But many of us are afraid there will be additional wars in the history of the United States.
Full transcript:
O’REILLY: I’m saying to you, Senator McCain, the north Vietnamese were signatories to the Geneva Convention. OK? They broke your leg. They brutalized you and all of the other POWs at the Hanoi Hilton. They didn’t give a fig about the Geneva Convention. So how can you possibly put up an ideal that if we bend over backwards for terrorists, not soldiers, terrorists, that we’re going to get anything back? It doesn’t make any sense. I’ll give you the last word, senator.
D’AMATO: Well, Bill, I give John McCain a pass on this only because I think he was so traumatized by the events that took place, that he doesn’t even really want to or is in a position to consider the impact of what his restrictions would do. And they are not going to make us look any morally better.
O’REILLY: No, they’re not.
D’AMATO: …or have our troops or our citizens treated any better.
O’REILLY: The American haters are still going to hate us.
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Just wow. Too traumatized but yeah they know best. I don’t have a big enough roll eyes emoticon to display my disgust.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:07 pmHonor above Fear.
This administration is all about fear. I hope America wakes up to the fact that we can face our fears with dignity. To give up on the constitution in the face of terror is to dishonor it.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:09 pmFRIST!
September 19th, 2006 at 2:10 pmFormer Sen. D’Amato is a GOP attack dog, set loose to bite McCain for his stance against torture, but remember that McCain works with the far-right now, so this GOP spat is just a distraction from Bush getting what he wants!
September 19th, 2006 at 2:10 pmI wonder if this Senator from New York was in the Military? I can not believe what they are saying. We should follow the Geneva Convention rules.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:11 pmI hate them both now.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:12 pmAbsolutely dispicable. The point is that we want to become a nation ( we are not one right now) that does not want to traumatize people through torture. It’s not the right way to live or to be. And giving up what America used to stand for, a better way to live and to be, is unacceptable. My God there are an amazing number of low life people in our country right now, including our president. He has disgraced and cheapened the office.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:13 pmDidn’t John Stewart make a joke about this very idea on the Daily Show, highlighting how incredibly ludicrous it would be to even suggest such a thing?
September 19th, 2006 at 2:18 pmFuture wars? You think?
September 19th, 2006 at 2:19 pmDING! DING! DING! We have a winnah!
September 19th, 2006 at 2:19 pmWe have the moral high ground because we adhere to the Geneva Conventions.
FAUX news the immoral lowgrounders and damn proud of it!
GOPigs!!
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September 19th, 2006 at 2:20 pmWe should ignore FAUX news because they weren’t tortured!!
September 19th, 2006 at 2:21 pmDamato should be discounted as well since he lost his moral compass years ago and has been wandering ever since…
September 19th, 2006 at 2:21 pmI wonder if this Senator from New York was in the Military?
I’m a lifelong New Yorker and I have often wondered if this Senator was even a human being. For those who don’t know him, he is scum. He was long known for being one of the sleazier politicians to represent New York. He was, in fact, the poster boy for what was wrong with Washington politics. He should be afforded zero credibility. I’m surprised they bothered to overturn the rock he crawled under when he was defeated. And I don’t think I’m the only New Yorker who feels that way.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:22 pmWe have the moral high ground because we adhere to the Geneva Conventions. And we’re not like these other countries, and we understand that al Qaeda would never observe it. But many of us are afraid there will be additional wars in the history of the United States.
Unfortunately, that’s the problem…we haven’t been adhering to the Geneva Conventions, and we have already lost the high moral ground. Only by reversing this administration’s behavior, which violated both American and International law, do we have a chance to begin the hard work of regaining the high ground. This President has claimed that he and he alone has the right to declare someone an enemy combatant, hold them indefinitely without a trial and mistreat and torture them. If not reversed and checked, such a President can do the same to American citizens as well. And I believe he will, if he and his administration isn’t stopped.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:22 pmFirst Colin Powell has a screw loose and now John McCain has a screw loose. Bush implodes in front of the media and then Rick Sanatarium has a melt down. It’s so much fun watching the Republican party self-destruct!
September 19th, 2006 at 2:34 pmCHALABI GATE COMETH MA!!
Not because we are anti-American, because any smart person knows that George Bush actually believed that we would be greeted with flowers and song. …
thinkprogress.org/2005/12/30/ahmed-chalabi-after-being-trounced/
The revelations about Chalabi, together with the revelations about torture, are so serious as to face the Bush Administration with an imminent Chalabigate …
socrates.berkeley.edu/~pdscott/iraqje.html
How quickly the Neo-kook troll MA forgets..
September 19th, 2006 at 2:35 pmHey, Mighty A – as much as I try to avoid personal attacks and insults, I’ve gotta tell ya, only a gutless coward believes that we have to compromise OUR VALUES just because the bad guys don’t live up to them.
Courage, Mighty A, is DOING THE RIGHT THING even when the bad guys don’t. Anything else is – get this – moral relativism.
Didn’t think I’d need to lecture such a righteous conservative about, y’know, right ‘n wrong, but y’all seem to be a bit challenged when it comes to morals ‘n stuff these days.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:36 pmIf McCain was really as traumatized by his treatment as D’Amato claims (and I disagree of course), wouldn’t that prove that torture isn’t the right way to go? The intelligence experts I’ve seen talking about this say the best way to get the info one needs is to build a relationship with prisoners and get their trust. Sort of a Stockholm Syndrome effect. As for the claim of “well what if we need it right now”, I saw one expert recently (I forget who and where) say that issue doesn’t really come up in the real world. I think Bush, D’Amato and the like are watching too much 24.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:38 pmThat’s right. And when Democrats go on FOX they help propagate these crazy ideas.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:39 pmOnce again MA, you have proven to be out of touch with real issues and resort to talking points that just show your ignorance. In your knee jerk response you are calling the likes of John McCain and Collen Powell weak-kneed. You are fit to clean their chamber pots. We are a country of laws and we do hold our military to higher standards. We can and should lead by example.
And if you come on here and blindly shoot your chickenhawk non enlisting mouth off again about your dreamed up belief of weak progressives the responding treatment will make the swift boaters blush.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:40 pmHere, just google this man’s name and torture together, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed,and read a few samples.He was supposedly told that his family would be threatened and his reply was Where they will be going if harmed they will be ok. They pushed the envelope and had their bluff called. Christopher Hitchens and Edmund Jerry Brown were on Hardball last night and both articulated quite a sane and reasonable argument against torture. Big Al is just delirious and so is the NRO editors. This will turn on the administration if they don’t back down.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:44 pmMA- you have claimed to be a lawyer, yet you consistantly advocate this administration breaking the law!!
What kind of lawyer advocates breaking the law?
I think the person who lies about being a lawyer would be the answer.
You seem to know nothing about the law at all.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:46 pmThat must be why Bush ignores military men – - they’ve been so traumatized by war they don’t understand the Iraq War experience.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:46 pmWell, well, well, Alphonse D’Amato slithers out from underneath the rock he has been under. It’s ironic, but the ‘pubs’ bring out the worst of the worst when they get desperate. This guy should be in a federal prison for the despicable things he has done. I remember him when I was working on the Hill. He is a piece of worthless garbage.
He never spent 5 seconds in the military. All the pro-torture talk is coming from those who never served in the military. Cowards all of them.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:46 pmonly the weak and cowardly torture. and the evil too of course. but these are the Real Good Christiansâ„¢ because they hate gays.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:46 pmMighty A is not a true conservative..
MA only wants to appeal to the Conservative base to keep the stinking rotten GOP hacks,itself, and war monger bush cronies and corrupt crooks in power…
September 19th, 2006 at 2:47 pmGood Post, most…Ah yes, MA is still erupting like old faithful…Funny indeed how all the reich show up to eat their own at swift boat time…Just let one step slightly out of lock step and they all go bonkers….It is funny…..MA and the reich steppers must be messing some clothing these day’s with so much truth coming out about their miserable administration….We must enjoy the entertainment value here and forgive them their madness, they can’t help it. Just like bull shit bush they either are getting to many med’s or not enough….Blessings
September 19th, 2006 at 2:48 pm27: “Here, just google this man’s name and torture together, Khalid Shaikh Mohammed…” – - I like the way Bush has started to refer to him as ‘KSM.’ Kinda like the Republicans like to detach FDR, JFK, and LBJ from actual people. Either that or Bush is too addled to recall the guys name.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:49 pmWhat’s that matter? Fox can’t find any sitting senators to smear McCain so they have to hire out to the former senators.
Fox is too conservative to see the huge irony in this statement. Suggesting that a formerly tortured POW was too traumatized by his treatment to fully understand why we now need the power to torture.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:55 pmIf McCain was traumatized by the years of torture by the Vietnamese as this fool claims then his (McCain’s) normal expected reaction would be towards revenge or retribution. He is showing the same moral character and fortitude by opposing torture by the US as he showed in resisting the torture of the Vietnamese. I feel that McCain has sold part of his soul in looking to 2008 but, to my way of thinking he still retains some fortitude and credibility.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:57 pmThe other people of the world don’t hate us because of our freedoms. They hate us because of our leaders and policies. So don’t take away my freedoms. Take away my leaders and policies and give me some new ones.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:59 pmCan’t help but agree with Clyde the Ripper McCain is an American hero, anything less than the utmost respect for the man is despicable.
September 19th, 2006 at 2:59 pm#34
If it is beyond “Dick,” ‘Jane,” and “Spot” the fool needs help. The three letters may be too much for his addled brain. Actually that may be complimentary since one has to have a functioning brain before it can be addled.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:01 pmMighty Aphrodite
do not object to inconvenience, discomfort and annoyance
Obviously not, since you frequently come to TP and dish it out. If you got a phone call saying mini-aphrodite had been kidnapped but found out hours later that this was a hoax, would that only be an “annoyance” or would you consider yourself terrorized and tortured ?
they are being well-fed receiving medical care
Feed them, beat them, give them medical care, feed them, hang them up until their shoulders come out of their sockets, give them medical care, feed them, waterboard them, feed them. All in a nice “humane” day! You’re so moral and compassionate, MA!
September 19th, 2006 at 3:01 pmRe:#23 Dave Von Ebers… Your “Moral high ground” can only go so far. I agree we should not torture… EVER. What I do disagree with is much of the other political correctness that has diminished, limited, and outright destroyed our ability to fight this fight with terrorists effectively. If, because of our moral high ground, we won’t step foot in or fire near a mosque, where do you think the insurgents are going to hide. We know where they are, we could save countless American soldiers lives, but we refuse. Why go to war if we aren’t allowed to win?
September 19th, 2006 at 3:03 pmThe Bush administration is all about fear and cowardice. It takes brave leaders to be honest, to adher to the Geneva convention, to adher to the Constitution, to adher to international treaties, to follow the will of the people (instead of using propaganda to blindly lead the people) and to seek diplomatic solutions instead of taking the easy way out and resorting to violence.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:05 pmGood Republican strategy: ignore anyone with any experience, knowledge, expertise, direct observation, or intelligence.
1. run up to the war in Iraq
2. evolution
3. global warming
4. aftermath of Hussein’s removal in Iraq
5. Katrina
6. torture
The only knowledge base they seem to use is election campaigning – which they have down to a very dirty science.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:06 pmWhy go to war if we aren’t allowed to win?
Comment by coachjason
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Because George and crew are morons and don’t listen to anyone except the crazies…..
Instead, they [Bushco] ignored fears expressed by analysts at the Central Intelligence Agency, the Defense Intelligence Agency and the State Department who predicted that postwar Iraq would be chaotic, violent and ungovernable, and that Iraqis would greet the occupying armies with firearms, not flowers.
Because George and crew are morons and don’t listen to anyone except the crazies??
“The same unit [the Office of Special Plans] that fed Chalabi’s intelligence on WMD to Rumsfeld was also feeding him Chalabi’s stuff on the prospects for postwar Iraq,” said a leading US government expert on the Middle East. Says a former US ambassador with strong links to the CIA: “There was certainly information coming from the Iraqi exile community, including Chalabi–who was detested by the CIA and by the State Department–saying, ‘They will welcome you with open arms.’” Rumsfeld’s willingness to accept that view led him to contradict the Chief of Staff of the US Army, who predicted that it would take hundreds of thousands of troops to control Iraq after the fall of Baghdad, a view that seems prescient today.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:10 pmhttp://www.thenation.com/doc/20030707/dreyfuss
We should ignore Bush because he was traumatized by alcoholism and drug use!!
September 19th, 2006 at 3:12 pmRe:44
September 19th, 2006 at 3:13 pmJust a quick question… not wanting to start a fight with you but how do you call yourself a “christian” and then ridicule the administration for not believing in evolution? I personally believe the 2 coexist, just wondering your thoughts?
coachjason
September 19th, 2006 at 3:16 pmIt’s not political correctness to avoid taking our military into a mosque after insurgents or fighting near one. It’s sound and realistic parameters. Going into or even around a mosque with guns blazing would light a powder keg of resentment and violent response throughout the Muslim world. And you ask a good question: why go to war if we aren’t allowed to win (or ABLE to win). We picked a fight that we cannot win. This was not smart nor moral. The military is good at destroying things, not destroying ideologies nor building nations. The terrorist problem and the problem in Iraq were different and required different solutions, neither of which required a full-scale military attack (a strong presence, yes). Doing more destroying will solve nothing.
It is not odd or irrelevant that so many of those who support the abandonment and dilution of the articles of the Geneva Conventions have no military experience, and that so many of those who are speaking out against such a moral travesty do have military experience. One must note that first and foremost to gain the proper perspective to accurately understand and comprehend the magnitude of what is being discussed.
Contrary to what some delusional characters may profess, the Geneva Conventions are not quaint or outdated. To even suggest such reveals a gross ignorance to the conventions and the reason for which they were convened. The conventions were not bourn of political agendas or national power struggles. Rather, they were the result of the identification of need from a world who had endured the pain, suffering, and moral travesties of wars and violent conflicts. The articles of the conventions were not drafted as legal quagmires or haphazard policy statements devoid of meaning or substance, but were the result of the blood and tears of the world body at that time that rose above national pride and loyalties to produce a legacy that would ensure that the travesties and horrors for which they were witnesses and victims would never again fall upon humanity.
Contrary to some voices of ignorance, the ideals of the Geneva Conventions are not dated. No amount of technology or technique renders them obsolete for they were not crafted in that manner precisely because it was understood that the method was not the issue, but rather the importance lay with the morality and humanity. Whether torture be performed with shards of bamboo or a laser beam is irrelevant, it is the concept and practice of torture itself which is morally reprehensible. This is where the current canard of “needing clarity†is revealed as the farce that it is. Anyone who says that the articles of the Geneva Conventions regarding torture and unacceptable treatment of human beings are in need of “clarity†are only seeking avenues upon which to torture and mistreat human beings. This is indisputable. And the fact that such is happening at this very moment is as repugnant as it wholly unacceptable.
The articles of the Geneva Conventions are not an end-all solution to the dealings between races, nations, and human beings. What they represent is a bar that an evolving world unanimously agreed that they would never again sink below. The debate should not be how to lower that bar, but how to raise it. Anyone who argues to the contrary is deceitful, cowardly, and an abomination upon the human race.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:20 pmPLC I disagree, we went in to the country with “guns blazing” as you put it, bent on killing muslims (preferrably the insurgent types). We went door to door, kicking in the ones that didn’t greet us with a smile. We drug out kicking and screaming or killed ones who scared us. Sometimes shooting them in the head to put them out of their misery, and you’re gonna tell me that going into a mosque would change any of that perception. I say if you go to fight, you CANNOT freely give an enemy a place to hide. Too many lives are at stake.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:23 pmCoach, I’m no expert on rules of engagement. My objection is to the whole idea of watering down Common Article III by “reinterpreting” it to allow the U.S. to use interrogation methods that clearly violate the letter and spirit of the law. If the U.S. didn’t want to be bound by Common Article III, we should never have signed off on the Geneva Conventions in the first place. But, since we did, we’re stuck.
And, let’s not forget that it was the generation that fought WWII that lead the charge to ratify the Geneva Conventions and to codify the laws of warfare – including Common Article III, governing the treatment of captures – into U.S. domestic law. And, despite the horrible treatment U.S. POW’s received at the hands of the Vietcong, I don’t recall anyone in the U.S. military advocating that we abandon Geneva during that war.
So, it chaps my butt to hear these folks who avoided service – especially George W. “I Flew Jets Over Texas (When I Was Sober Enough to Fly)” Bush and Dick “Captain Deferment” Cheney” – disregard the men and women in uniform who say that we can’t betray our values, no matter how evil the enemy may be.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:24 pmI also disagree that we are not able to win this war… We most certainly are. The question is what constitutes a win. By many previous perameters, the war is over. Though we know that’s not true now.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:26 pmcoachjason
You don’t believe in evolution anymore than you believe in gravity. You accept them as part of the world and include their concepts in your decision making and teach those concepts to your children for their future benefit. I ridicule the dismissal of science and efforts to replace it with “creationism” as a “religious” value. Biblical teaching is not about the physical world, it is about the spiritual/relationship world. Confusing the two distorts and diminishes both. Christians have a duty to confront false spiritual teaching and I see the fundamentalist views of evolution/creationism as just that.
Finally, don’t worry about “starting a fight” with me – as long as you are respectful in your questions and attend to my responses respectfully. I’ve got a long fuse (a big stick of dynamite at the end of it, however!) You haven’t given me any cause to fight with you – others have and that may be why you are concerned. You are not MA!
September 19th, 2006 at 3:27 pmMankind, to me, is not yet complete coach..he is not yet created nor fully evolved..we exist in a state of animation.
We are, after all, very small and mostly space..
A world of fools killing each other as it circles a star..crazy aint it?
September 19th, 2006 at 3:27 pmStating the Obvious (No. 49) – thanks for saying what I was trying to say, but in a far more articulate manner than I ever could. Excellent comment!
September 19th, 2006 at 3:29 pmcoachjason
September 19th, 2006 at 3:32 pmRight, too many INNOCENT lives at stake. The war itself was/is a mistake as a solution. Destroying the sanctity of a religious building would only be worse. Two aspirins might get rid of your headache, but not if you already took 50 of them (or, at least, not in an acceptable way!).
Coach,
If you look it up here and here. You can see we have engaged in fighting in and around mosques. How many more I don’t know. Do you know of a Rule of Engagement that specifically states that our forces can’t attack a hostile force in a mosque? If so please let us know.
As far as the “Why go to war if we aren’t allowed to win?” question. I think that would be best asked of the leaders of this occupation. Don’t forget we are in two wars that we are not fully committed to.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:32 pmPLC I couldn’t agree more with your first paragraph… Most of the time I run into people who are the ones who do want to replace science with spirituality. I just wondered how you felt… I tell my kids that arguing evolution vs. creationism is like arguing Star Wars vs. Star Trek. We can’t be sure which one is really true, all we can do is hope (or pray).
September 19th, 2006 at 3:33 pmA world of fools killing each other as it circles a star..crazy aint it?strong> I’ve never heard it put that way. So simply put, and yet so encompassing of the truth…
coachjason @ 47 – Being a Christian and believing in evolution aren’t mutually exclusive. The Catholic church, in fact, recently released a statement reminding Catholics that the Bible is a religious text, open to interpretation and not to be read literally, and not a science textbook (or, I suppose we can assume, a cookbook or a travel guide). That other sects of Christianity insist on the strict six-day-he-saw-it-was-good-and-then-he-rested interpretation is frequently a bit of an annoyance to those of us who recognize carbon 14 dating when we see it.
For the record, there are also pro-choice Christians, Christian Democrats, and separation-of-church-and-state Christians. Ask Me How!
(apologies for threadjack)
September 19th, 2006 at 3:36 pmSometimes shooting them in the head to put them out of their misery, and you’re gonna tell me that going into a mosque would change any of that perception. I say if you go to fight, you CANNOT freely give an enemy a place to hide. Too many lives are at stake.
Comment by coachjason
I also disagree that we are not able to win this war… We most certainly are. The question is what constitutes a win. By many previous perameters, the war is over. Though we know that’s not true now.
Comment by coachjason
As I recall it was a Freedom Operation and not a “war”
Their is no WIN here coach because the whole reasoning of this Freedom, or War, or Regime Change, or Crusade, or Democracy has never been clearly defined.
Is it a Peace Operation still Coach?
No one seems to even know what to call this Bush debacle..
September 19th, 2006 at 3:39 pmcoachjason,
You represent a variety of soldier that some of the articles of the Geneva Convention directly address as being morally reprehensible and unacceptable. I’m sorry that you do not realize that and that you were placed in such a position, but I (and, yes, I was a soldier but not in this current abomination) find your entire post to be despicable and entirely lacking in humanity.
There are too many issues and specifics to address, but I will single out just one quickly. You were scared, so you killed indiscriminately. A more cowardly statement cannot be made. Nor have I ever seen a soldier make a statement which is so monumentally in conflict with the code that you swore to uphold. You have my pity, but you also disgust me. Seek help, you need it.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:40 pmFor the record, there are also pro-choice Christians, Christian Democrats, and separation-of-church-and-state Christians. Ask Me How!
September 19th, 2006 at 3:40 pmOf these I would say that the last 2 are possible, the first is NOT. You can try til you’re blue in the face to convinve me otherwise, but you’ll be no further than you are right now… Sorry
As for not shooting up mosques, that alone won’t make things better. We have, as coachjason mentioned, gone in with guns blazing, and that’s made a lot of people wicked angry. However, not shooting up mosques is still important, because it’s not going to make things worse, whereas shooting up mosques is pretty much guaranteed to make things worse.
It’ll certainly take more than not shooting up mosques and not torturing detainees to bring this to a reasonably peaceful conclusion, but such a conclusion will never happen at all if we are doing those things. They’re not sufficient, but they’re sure as hell necessary.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:41 pmD’AMATO: …And they are not going to make us look any morally better.
O’REILLY: No, they’re not.
D’AMATO: …or have our troops or our citizens treated any better.
O’REILLY: The American haters are still going to hate us.
Well in one way, they’re both quite right! 1) It’s a little too late for these restrictions to help recover the reputations of those who have shown their sadistic blood lust. 2) And just having the restrictions in the laws aren’t going to make Bush or the Republican controled Congress respect the troops or our citizens any more or treat them any better as they will continue to cut funding for protective armour, vets benefits, etc. and the rest of the citizens will be maligned for speaking up about it. Thus 3) the people they call “The American Haters” are still going to dislike and distrust O’Reilly, D’Amato and the rest of their ilk, know them to be the true American haters.
Why do Bill and Al hate America so much?
September 19th, 2006 at 3:43 pmA world of fools killing each other as it circles a star..crazy aint it?
I’ve never heard it put that way. So simply put, and yet so encompassing of the truth…
Thanks Coach! I’m kinda weird that way, nevertheless, how can we, all of us, stop the madness?
September 19th, 2006 at 3:43 pmRE:57
September 19th, 2006 at 3:43 pmAll I can say about those 2 instances is that both were deemed self-defense. The insurgents fired on our men from their base (mosque) first. The S.O.P. is that you do not enter a mosque “preemptively” as you would a house or office building. And in both of those articles, neither talks about a soldier actually firing first upon or entering physically, the mosque itself.
coachjason
September 19th, 2006 at 3:50 pmWhat is a Christian? When you can answer that through Christ’s teachings you’ll understand how there can be Pro-choice Christians.
I can speak for many POW’s who KNOW what torture is all about. They all know this, for the rest of their lives they will NEVER stop working to STOP ALL TORTURE….count on it.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:52 pmJohn McCain was clearly too affected by his torture to understand the effect torture has on people.
Clearly.
September 19th, 2006 at 3:55 pmRe:#61
September 19th, 2006 at 3:55 pmI don’t know what mess hall you were a cook in, but I never killed indiscriminitely. Yes there’s blood on my hands… I was not referring to myself when I spoke of shooting people in the head, I was talking about the boys who were caught and punished for it. Of course I was scared you fool! We All Were. I do need help, but not the kind you speak of. I swore to uphold the same code you did, and in that code I promised to be my brothers keeper. where are you now Brother? Shooting off hateful insults when I’m just as mad as anyone here for what’s going on. So I think that to win we need to enter where we know the insurgents hide… sorry you don’t feel the same way. Maybe you liked watching your mates being blown into pieces… maybe you like looking their wives in the eyes while they cry them out and thank god that you are the one who made it home… you disgust me, and judging by what you said, you never served in any American army. Have a good evening, I hope you feel better about yourself now.
#67,
September 19th, 2006 at 3:56 pmCoach,
I am not going to argue this as a reason why we are not winning the war in Iraq. I hope that our troops don’t enter any building with no reason or suspicion. Kicking in doors for no reason doesn’t win any hearts in the people you are trying to help. If they are shot at then I think they can enter any building including mosques. But without seeing an official statement or something from the Commanders…I just don’t know what the rules are. The reason we are not winning is because of our leadership is flawed. The troops did what they were asked to do. Win the war. Now they have to nation build while under fire. That is not what they should be asked to do. They should be defending this country not occupying others.
John McCain was clearly too affected by his torture to understand the effect torture has on people.
Clearly.
Comment by Don
Your being sarcastic right?
September 19th, 2006 at 4:01 pmEvolution, Intelligent Design… Theory, Fact, or Fiction?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zQFw2pb5Pwk
September 19th, 2006 at 4:01 pmRe:73 We do not step one foot into a mosque, unless that order has changed in the last year. Only to recover our dead, as far as I know…
September 19th, 2006 at 4:01 pmStraight out of Karl Rove’s playbook — this is the same offensive Bush used against McCain in the past.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:03 pmI am not a supporter of McCain; I think he has sold his soul to the party; but for D’Amato to accuse McCain of being so victimized that he can’t think straight is disgusting and cheap.
coachjason,
No, the code that you swore to was to defend the defenseless, to protect the liberties and freedoms of all humans, and to do so with honor and integrity.
Only a fool would not be scared in a life and death scenario. Yet only a coward kills another out of fear and not out of absolute necessity. A defenseless civilian, regardless of nationality, is precisely what you swore to defend with your life. Your choosing to betray that oath and to attempt to relieve your fear by killing non-warriors is cowardice and appalling.
That is where and why you need to seek help, and do so with earnest.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:04 pmRE:79
September 19th, 2006 at 4:09 pmPut the crack-pipe down and make some sense… When did I ever say I killed a non-combatant? Sounds like you may need to rethink who you’re talking to and what you’re talking about.
While you’re at it, Thank your God that you never saw any combat. and if you did, please tell me how you did so without fear… since you would be the first person in history to do so!
[...] Fox Guest: We Should Ignore McCain Since He Was So Traumatized …Think Progress, DC - 2 hours ago… in Vietnam, you weren t accorded the Geneva Conventions. You were brutally treated and tortured. MCCAIN: But later on in our captivity the Vietnamese changed … [...]
September 19th, 2006 at 4:14 pmCoach I have a uncle whom served in vietnam..many of the people spit upon them after the Vietnam war, he is still traumatized to this day after Vietnam.
I fully support the troops Coach, what I don’t support is the Bush cabal and it’s incompetentence before the ‘war’, the planning of this ‘war’ and the non existent post-war planning.
I supported going into afghanistan, I supported going after those who attacked US that day..
The Bush folks lied us, and you into Iraq Coach, something I was against because it was a pipe dream of flowers and parades. I am damn angry Coach, not at the troops, but at this cabal of corrupt foolish misfits occupying the White House.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:17 pmtell me, oh mighty one, what moral high ground you’d walk on… especially when you know the person(s) who did it are in the building right across the street… and you can do nothing about it?
Comment by coachjason
You could probably start by wondering how come me and my buddy are here, terrified and dying instead of drinking beer at your place in the US. If you happen to be in a foreign country holding a gun and kicking doors do not expect too much kindness. Imagine, for a second, thousands of armed Hamas fighters, in the streets of your town or city, kicking doors and pointing people in the head while searching them. mmmm… I guess you probably think you would kill some of those bastards down, right? Well, there you have it.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:29 pmh mighty one, what moral high ground you’d walk on… especially when you know the person(s) who did it are in the building right across the street… and you can do nothing about it?
Likely Coach, we will just keep going around this starry circle and continue to hate and kill each other for another millenia because mankind always wants to avenge the death of another, but to avenge death means more death….a vicious circle for all parties involved.
The hardest thing man will ever do, and quite possibly will NEVER be able to do is to remove his hatred long enough for the world to actually acquire peace.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:29 pmcoachjason,
You come in complaining that the Geneva Conventions handcuffed you, and then you spew off the absurdities that you did get away with. Now you complain about being challenged about your actions.
Nobody blames the troops for the war/invasion that they were thrown into. Yet, each and every one of us is responsible for our own actions regardless of the “situation”. Being cast into an illegal war does not then license one to act illegally or immorally. I’m sorry that you don’t see it that way, because that is the way it is.
Good luck to you and I am serious when I say to seek help. You have no idea the amount of help that you need but make no mistake that your issues are not going to just go away.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:29 pmD’Amato should get a pass when talking about anything involving morality or ethics, after so many years of being a corrupt slimeball in the Senate.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:31 pmI dont understand what is this fascination with the “troops”. US citizens describe the troops job as a “service to the country”. Well, it is easy to serve the country when you have the best military technology in the world.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:35 pmNobody says how a single mother served her country by raising children herself. No, a guy with a gun is more useful than people struggling each day to be better.
#84 coachjason
Don’t make a stranger of yourself. You’re the kind of person who I may not agree with, but you obviously come here to reason and not just to hurl grenades. You shouldn’t be insulted, but I won’t go into that. Don’t give up. Even if some of your views are socially conservative, at least you’re not being self-righteous or abusive. That’s a breath of fresh air compared to the likes of MA and RRS.
As for the question about blowing up mosques, it’s not a simple one. But, I’d argue that anyone who would use their house of worship to escape retaliation for an act of terrorism is desecrating their own religious objects. There isn’t an easy answer. There are more things to take into account than just getting the bad guys.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:42 pmThat’s fascinating – D’Amato’s argument is that torture so damages a man that he cannot think rationally for the rest of his life, and therefore it should be okay.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:48 pmFolks, I don’t always agree with Coachjason, but I know from his many, many posts on this site that he is genuinely trying to engage in an honest dialogue about these issues. And he was there, which is more than most of us can say. So, back off the guy, will you?
Jeez, we keep saying we support the troops and we blame the government – which is great – but I think we should take the time to listen, respectfully, no less, when someone who fought George Bush’s war is trying to tell us about his experiences. Can’t we do that?
Coach, I am more interested in hearing about your experiences than lecturing you about “moral high ground.” You know my position on Geneva, and it won’t change. But, I think we all need to try to understand what it’s like on the ground over there. Sorry that you get jumped on when you try to explain what you experienced, but please keep posting here. Your experiences do matter.
I apologize for getting on the soap box, but I can’t believe how so many people on the right AND the left want to talk about the war without hearing what actual soldiers and marines have lived through.
I’ve been to one military wake this year – the brother of my son’s third grade teacher, a marine, who died in Iraq – and it’s one too many. None of us here in the states has any concept of what these men and women are going through, so none of us – and I mean NONE of us – has the right to pass judgment, especially on those like Coachjason, who come here in good faith to engage in honest discussion.
Okay, I’ll get off the soapbox now…
September 19th, 2006 at 4:48 pmchimpeach
I second your post to coachjason. Sometimes, it seems that many people are so angry at the policies of BushCo that anyone on the “other side”, even remotely, becomes the target. I don’t want to see reasonable and reasoning conservatives driven away from TP because these are the people who can help us turn the tide!
I also agree that there are MANY things to take into account with the war on terror and in Iraq, with no black and white decisions. I agree that using a house of worship to hide in is desecrating, but I wonder if those doing so use “their own” mosque or if Shiites hide in Sunni and vice versa to sow more chaos. Complicated, indeed.
September 19th, 2006 at 4:58 pmThe mention of Al d’Amato mad me LOL!! Where is he selling used cars these days?
September 19th, 2006 at 5:04 pmJust how much time did this shitbird spend as a POW? Or even in the service? None?…..Didn’t think so.
September 19th, 2006 at 5:26 pm“Thank goodness our friends and allies did not desert us during our civil war”-comment by Mighty Aphrodite-August 3, 2006 @3:22 pm
September 19th, 2006 at 5:39 pm
I think that saying McCain’s having been tortured would have anything to do with his attitude about torture is giving this two faced BS artist a lot of credit. He has had the chance to stand up against the meat puppet and his dog dick on several occasions, however, he chose to wipe the sploo off his chin and dust off his knees instead. he has done NOTHING to counter the criminal activity except to try to distance himself from it, and all while profiting from it, and promoting his political capital.
September 19th, 2006 at 5:49 pmscum, ladies and gentleman. (any adjective about lack of spine can be inserted here)
If they want to “clarify” art. 3 of the geneva conventions, then sure… Go ahead….. But….. For the people who propose the changes and want to go ahead and approve them, they must go through a “clarified” geneva conventions interrogation session. After they have been waterboarded, deprived of sleep and food. Had dogs attack them. stripped naked and made to watch their interrogators flush the bible. Been chained to a leash and led around like dogs, and…. so on. If, after that, they still want to go ahead and vote for it and are willing to go through it on a regular basis until we “win the war”, then go for it. Ten to one, 99 percent wouldn’t even make it through one atrocity.
September 19th, 2006 at 6:29 pmThat’s my 2 cents.
D’Amato may have a point:
Sen. John McCain said Sunday that Iran’s bid for nuclear weapons is the most serious foreign policy crisis since the end of the Cold War. “A nuclear capability in Iran is unacceptable,” he told “Fox News Sunday.”
But Iran has made no bid for nuclear weapons.
The Arizona Republican said that the Iranian nuclear program presents the U.S. with “the most serious crisis we have faced – outside of the entire war on terror – since the end of the Cold War.”
But the US is not threatened in any way
The top 2008 presidential contender also argued that the U.S. must revive its nuclear power industry in order to free itself from energy dependence on countries run by “mullahs” and “wackos.”
Or, let’s follow the example of the Iranian “wackos”
http://www.newsmax.com/archives/ic/2006/1/22/124748.shtml
September 19th, 2006 at 6:51 pmBefore you all rush to McCain’s defense you might want to take a look at his version of the bill. While definitely an improvement over the Administration’s, it still contains language that would effectively let them Bush admin off the hook for war crimes violations.
September 19th, 2006 at 7:32 pmMaybe it is a small point, but we honored the Geneva Convention and the North Vietnamese did not. Who won?
September 19th, 2006 at 7:59 pmSo, just simply, do I read that his thoughts on treatment of prisoners should be discounted because he saw it from the other side?
September 19th, 2006 at 8:16 pmO’Reilly and D’Amato maybe need some good ‘ole torture. After all, Al Gonzales said the prohibition of it had been “rendered quaint”.
September 19th, 2006 at 8:20 pm“We should all ignore Bush, he was brain damaged from the alcohol abuse”
September 19th, 2006 at 8:34 pmOver and over again, you liberals claim Bush is taking away your rights. Tell me, please, just ONE right you don’t have that you had on 9/11/01? Can’t think of one, can you? You also forget that the vast MAJORITY of Democrats voted for the Iraq war, voted FOR funding the war, and gave Bush the authority (of course, the Democrats have forgotten, too) McCain is not a Republican – he’s a da** turncoat – I respect his military service and the fact he was a POW – doesn’t mean he can’t be an idiot. Geneva Conventions apply to UNIFORMED soldiers of a given Country – the Islamo Fascist Militants that chop off the heads of civilians and train their children to wear bombs to MURDER innocent Civilians don’t give a rat about the Geneva Conventions. If we were at war with another country, then ok, Geneva Conventions apply. We are at war with those who would destroy civilization – their stated goals are to rule the World under Islamic law – don’t agree, they want to kill you too. Think, folks
September 19th, 2006 at 8:54 pmOk, so just about everybody I know has been talking for a decent while about how terrible this administration is, how many laws they’ve broken, how many innocent people have been harmed because of them, and I live in a heavily republican area. My question is this: when will Americans stand up for their rights? We’ve got to take a stand and let Dubya and his cronies know that what he’s doing is wrong, and we won’t let him get away with it. But here’s the thing that kills me: everybody is perfectly content to sit around on the computer and talk about it in a blog. We’ll say how terrible the administration is, and how we want things to be different, but that’s about as far as the though process goes. Occasionaly one of us might send a letter to somebody or commit some other meaningless gesture, but that really won’t change anything. I don’t blame us. We’ve all got busy lives to lead. We’ve got work, school, families, and other things that are more important than making a difference.
September 19th, 2006 at 8:56 pmIf you think that this government is not doing a good job of representing the American people, then why pledge your allegiance to it? The best thing you can do is annoy and anger the administration through nonviolent protest. Don’t pay your taxes to a government that doesn’t support you. March, sit, stand, walk, run, boycott, or do anything in incredibly large or small numbers. Read “Civil Disobedience” by Henry David Thoreau. Don’t stand for this anymore.
You wrote: “Despite the right-wing’s attempts to smear him, McCain has maintained a position that is guided by his personal experience and knowledge of torture.”
His entire post-VN career is based on his experience under torture. He could hardly come out for it, could he? A cynic might even call him
September 19th, 2006 at 9:14 pmSenator Torture, sort of like Senator Pothole, above.
Thank You!#115 america…Some of us are, many more need to loose the fear to do so.. Blessings
September 19th, 2006 at 9:52 pmMA is a disgusting human being (yes, I am being generous with that word) Don’t respond to the noted transexual.
September 19th, 2006 at 10:12 pmI’m sure McCain will give D’Amato & BO a hug and make it all better.
September 19th, 2006 at 10:34 pm#41 – “Obviously not, since you frequently come to TP and dish it out. If you got a phone call saying mini-aphrodite had been kidnapped but found out hours later that this was a hoax, would that only be an “annoyance†or would you consider yourself terrorized and tortured ?”
Comment by Patriotic Liberal Christian
********Dear Phony Liberal Christian, Are you always so whiny or are you just especially falsetto today??? Of course I would be worried sick if one of my children were kidnapped – after the hoax was revealed, I would be grateful AND P*$$ed ….and sure the perps were brought to justice! (BTW, Your question is almost as stupid as “How often do you beat your wife, Senator?”)
“Feed them, beat them, give them medical care, feed them, hang them up until their shoulders come out of their sockets, give them medical care, feed them, waterboard them, feed them. All in a nice “humane†day! You’re so moral and compassionate, MA!” – Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC)
September 19th, 2006 at 10:34 pm***********Dear Phony Lying Christian – YOU are a pathertic LIAR – your wife should wash your mouth out with soap and ban you from the keyboard for twenty minutes. NO where do I call for, or imply I was for, physical abuse of ANY detainee. You are one sick soul to read into the word “discomfort” and come up with hideous, torturous behaviour as an effective translation. I don’t need you to tell others what I mean to say. I say what I mean and mean what I say. Shame on you, you hypocrite.
#28 – “MA- you have claimed to be a lawyer, yet you consistantly advocate this administration breaking the law!!
What kind of lawyer advocates breaking the law?
I think the person who lies about being a lawyer would be the answer.
You seem to know nothing about the law at all.” – Comment by Wayne
*******Actually, Wayne – if you are discussing Article 3 of the Geneva Convention – the vague choice of vocabulary is a shady lawyers DREAM. I favour precision in the law and in the treaty. (We’ve all experienced the effects of poorly written legislation.) I guess you excelled in fuzzy math, too
September 19th, 2006 at 10:44 pm#23 – “Hey, Mighty A – as much as I try to avoid personal attacks and insults, I’ve gotta tell ya, only a gutless coward believes that we have to compromise OUR VALUES just because the bad guys don’t live up to them.” Comment by Dave van Eber
****** Dear DaveESQ, As much as I HATE ad hominem attacks (and in such a target rich environment) stop being such a whiner!! I do NOT advocate any form of physical torture or mayhem. I don’t know HOW much more clearly you need that point reiterated, Counselor. “Bad guys”?? This isn’t Cops and Robbers on Schwinns. My enemy are barbarians – apparently yours are “bad guys”. Pitiful….
“Courage, Mighty A, is DOING THE RIGHT THING even when the bad guys don’t. Anything else is – get this – moral relativism.”
September 19th, 2006 at 11:01 pm********DaveESQ, Thank you for the definition of courage. Courage is also doing something very difficult especially when you’re AFRAID. How nice of you to co-opt it!!! The LEFT is the definition of moral relativism, Counselor. Everything is hazy in the progressive world. Right and wrong have been sacrificed on the altar of nihilistic secular humanism.
No. 114 – I have to ask, where did you get your law degree?
Bush’s warrantless wiretapping scheme is a violation of the 4th Amendment to the U.S. Constitution, and it violates FISA, too (that, my friend, makes the president a criminal … as in, “high crimes and misdemeanors,” as in “impeachable offense”). So, there’s an easy answer to your question right off the bat. Rolling back the 4th Amendment is no small thing – that is, if you believe in all that “liberty” and “freedom” stuff in the first place.
Oh, a-and that there Common Article III of the Geneva Conventions, which governs the treatment of captives and prohibits torture AND cruel and degrading treatment, applies to ALL captures, not just uniformed soldiers.
Before you quote chapter and verse, you may want to read the book!
September 19th, 2006 at 11:04 pmOkay, MA – let’s have it. What does Common Article III say?
Please, quote directly from the language of Common Article III, and provide your source.
I’m waiting …
September 19th, 2006 at 11:10 pmOh, a-and Mighty A, where did I say you advocated physical abuse?
All I said was, we’ve got to do the right thing no matter how bad the bad guys are.
And, I notice that you do not refute my basic point – namely, that conservatives today seem to embrace moral relativism, at least when th’ evil terrorists are involved, right? Those guys are really bad, so th’ Geneva Conventions are “quaint” …
So, if I understand your perspective, you believe in moral absolutes when it is convenient, but when the going gets tough … not so much. Does that about sum it up?
September 19th, 2006 at 11:19 pmDaveESQ – You remind me of the one boy-bimbo in CrimLaw – the guy who got bounced for cheating. THAT little weasel would constantly sidle up and ask, “Did you get your briefs done?” He always got a little miffed when he couldn’t “borrow” other people’s work.
(From: http://www.yale.edu/lawweb/avalon/lawofwar/geneva03.htm#art3 )
ARTICLE 3
In the case of armed conflict not of an international character occurring in the territory of one of the High Contracting Parties, each Party to the conflict shall be bound to apply, as a minimum, the following provisions:
(1) Persons taking no active part in the hostilities, including members of armed forces who have laid down their arms and those placed hors de combat by sickness, wounds, detention, or any other cause, shall in all circumstances be treated humanely, without any adverse distinction founded on race, colour, religion or faith, sex, birth or wealth, or any other similar criteria. To this end the following acts are and shall remain prohibited at any time and in any place whatsoever with respect to the above-mentioned persons:
(a) violence to life and person, in particular murder of all kinds, mutilation, cruel treatment and torture; (b) taking of hostages; (c) outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment; (d) the passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
(2) The wounded and sick shall be collected and cared for.
An impartial humanitarian body, such as the International Committee of the Red Cross, may offer its services to the Parties to the conflict.
The Parties to the conflict should further endeavour to bring into force, by means of special agreements, all or part of the other provisions of the present Convention.
The application of the preceding provisions shall not affect the legal status of the Parties to the conflict.
I’d say “outrages upon personal dignity, in particular, humiliating and degrading treatment;” and “exposed to unpleasant or disadvantageous treatment of any kind,†are a tad vague.
(I’m a bit surprised you needed assistance locating the exact language of Article III – - sarcasm off*****)
September 20th, 2006 at 1:08 amIf another country invaded us on a whim, I wonder what Mighty Aphrodite would do to defend herself. Would you kill? Would you burn what you perceived to be you enemy? Would you blow yourself up? Would you sacrifice yourself for the benefit of your country so someone like me could live on and further the true American way?
Or how about this, would you sacrifice your children for one man’s religious beliefs?
Not me. My son is more important to me and humanity than any religion, country or any other entity. Hate is evil. Killing is evil. Destruction is evil. We have the power of creation ourselves. It’s high time we understand that.
September 20th, 2006 at 2:05 amI agree with the previous poster who suggested that all of these Righties who seem to feel that torture is perfectly accceptable, and support changing the Geneva Conventions to make Americans legal Terrorists, should have to undergo the treatment they are advocating for others. I think the ‘Naked Pyramid’ would be a good place to start. Maybe followed by repeated insertion and removal of improperly sized plastic ‘feeding tubes’, while secured by restraints to hospital beds, for their safety, of course. And I’m sure that Rumsfeld would insist on being the first to volunteer to be leg shackled to the floor, and have his hands bound together, and stretched over his head, and connected to a chain hanging from the ceiling, while nude, of course, and left that way for 48 hours. He says he stands all day at work, he should be just fine. And we don’t want the Media to feel left out, Sean Hannity can try having the electrodes attached to his testicles, he’s a tough guy. And Rush Limbaugh can sit in his own waste for a week or two, he did say he thought Arabs did that all the time, and it’s more like a college prank, really. And Bill O’R. could be forced to masturbate, in front of a group of guards, while they ‘taunt’ him. If, at the end of all of that, they still support torture, they are clearly insane, and should be committed immediately. And oh how they will squeal when the tables are turned, but they will never accept responsibility for it.
September 20th, 2006 at 5:31 amcoachjason
Actually it is perfectly possible to be a pro-choice Christian, because the Bible does not actually ban abortion. It bans assualt on pregnant women, with a stiffer sentence if you cause the woman to miscarry, but it does not actually ban abortion. Note that abortion was known back then, so chances are if it were illegal according to God’s scripture it would have been mentioned.
http://www.biblegateway.com/topical/topical_resource.php?source=1&tid=54
As to biblical creationism: The Moon does not qualify as a light, because it merely reflects the light of the sun. Further flying birds came fairly late in the evolutionary process, according to the best fossil data we have. They did not come before land animals. Basically, read the book of Genesis where creation is discussed, the devil is in the details with the Biblical account.
That said: Wars aren’t fought by being nice. The prime aim of war is to kill the enemy until the enemy stops killing you or your allies. This is why war should never, ever, ever be the first choice in any case. This is why the UN was set up as a organisation, so that people could talk things out before resorting to war, and this is why we have such things as diplomats.
That you were kept from fighting in mosques, was unfortunate and stupid. That you were kept from going after the guys who gunned down your friends might have been tactical as much as anything (You chase after them, they lead you into an ambush, you get shot and your friend is in trouble because of some other insurgents taking advantage of the lighter protection around your friend) or it might have been symptomatic of how the war has been mismanaged.
Whatever happened, you were scared and you were doing your best to be a good soldier, nothing more can be asked of you. To be fearless one has to be stupid, because being without fear is being without imagination, not being without courage. The war in Iraq right now, is a fact. Plain and simple, there is no getting around that, and right now we need to start coming up with solutions to that fact. Blaming soldiers for what they did to stay alive is not productive, figuring out what is going wrong is.
Rumsfeld has shown a distinct disinterest in criticism, and the current administration has shown a propensity to ignore experts on a lot of fields. This includes FEMA engineers, scientists, economists, the CIA, and their own generals. It is time to maybe start listening to the people whose jobs actually cover knowing about a given subject.
Another thing that is going wrong is that those soldiers who are on the front lines, are being kept there way too long. They are slowly going nuts, and this is leading to more and more attrocities. This is not a moral judgement, this is a judgement of there being only so much a person can take, and after a while things start to go wrong. A soldier’s existance in a war zone is basically one of varying degrees of fear, be it the mild fear of being attacked or the more immediate fear, of actually being under attack, and after a while under those circumstances, everyone cracks.
There is further, a weakness in the moral high ground. Torture is one of those things which we tend to list alongside genocide as being the worst crimes one can commit. It strips you of the moral high ground because it is immoral, it is evil, and there is no real arguing with it. It is also something which is unneeded 9 times out of 10. This is why the Geneva conventions ban it. It needs to stay banned, if not for moral reasons, then at least for practical reasons.
While the US is using beheadings to recruit it’s soldiers, Lyndie England and Guantanamo Bay are both being used by the other side, also when you torture somebody you have to consider two people: The tortured, and the torturer. Eventually that torturer is going to come back into society, and someone who is trained to inflict suffering upon others without guilt, is not someone I want to meet in a dark ally at night.
Now for solutions: Institute a draft. It is a unpopular solution but if you have a shortage of soldiers, a draft can cover it.
Start listening to your experts. When someone tells you something, and you are paying them to know about that given subject, listen to them. This is only common sense.
Don’t enter into any more wars, and don’t even pretend to entertain the notion. A war in Iran would mean a war in Saudi Arabia, as well as an instant war in Korea. The Saudi’s will see a second major oil producer going down and get very, very afraid, the North Koreans will see a second Axis of Evil power going down and will be very, very afraid. Don’t make people afraid, because the instinct in that case is fight or flight, and you can’t always tell which people are going to do.
Fire Bolton and hire someone who is actually diplomatic to talk to the UN. Bolton is knowledgable about the UN, but he is also very bad at getting the UN on America’s side.
Freedom fries must go back to being French fries. Soul kissing must go back to French kissing. When America started cutting the word “French” out of its lingo, it made America look really childish. The French disagreed with the Iraq war, they turned out to be 100% right on why they disagreed, it is time to admit it and stop treating Europe like shit. You are losing allies in Europe in a big way thanks purely to GW Bush’s speeches in Europe.
You need to show that America cares about its treaties. Bush has lost a lot of America’s ability to convince the rest of the world of anything, by breaking America’s treaties, such as the Geneva Conventions and the NPT (when he traded nuclear technology to India.) If nobody can trust America to keep it’s word on a treaty, nobody will treat with America.
America needs to get allies in rebuilding Iraq, and it needs to act in such a manner as to make its allies believe that they can trust America. Torture does not breed trust, breaking treaties does not breed trust, and insulting people, does not breed allies.
September 20th, 2006 at 5:45 am#138 That said: Wars aren’t fought by being nice. The prime aim of war is to kill the enemy until the enemy stops killing you or your allies.
Bruce I couldn’t agree more. I wasn’t there to debate with or break bread with people, I was there to kill people, others were supposed to have already settled the debate. We were/are there to end the insurgency and give the country back to the decent people of Iraq, of which there are thousands.
September 20th, 2006 at 7:58 amWhen you speak of dealing with Iran while we still have 2 wars going on… We cannot act afraid of another war. To sound any less than powerful and unafraid gives them the edge. We all know another war would destroy this country from within, but we are America. WE carry the “big stick”.
I agree with most of the rest of what you said… except the first paragraph. You don’t need to be a Christian to realize that killing babies (born or unborn) is wrong. They are the most defenseless human beings, they cannot speak for themselves, they have no lobbyists, no funding in congress, no special interest groups, and yet we are allowed to dispose of them like yesterday’s paper. When will the Geneva convention accords ever be afforded to them. Tell me why it’s okay to have your brain sucked out through a tube while your still alive in a womb, while in the same breath pro-choicers will tell me you can’t flush the Koran down the toilet in front a POW. It’s absolute insanity. BTW God did address abortion in commandment #6 “Thou shalt not kill”
120 Mighty Aphrodite
Obviously, I touched a nerve. Good. I’m glad you have some. You claimed that “annoyance” without physical harm is not torture but your response to my hypothetical about mini-Aphrodite proves that you would not apply that standard to something happening to you. You offered that detainees in Gitmo were given humane treatment because they were given food and medical care. Again your response to my admittedly over the top scenario of feed-torture-give medical care was appalling to you and indicates that underneath all your posts to the contrary you believe that food and medical care is not sufficient to define “humane” treatment.
So, should we believe your original words and their meaning or the opposite meaning in your response to my admittedly over the top challenge?
September 20th, 2006 at 8:48 amcoachjason
September 20th, 2006 at 9:09 amMaybe I should take my own advice with the real MA! Actually, sometimes I do.
PLC
September 20th, 2006 at 9:13 amBTW good job taking MA to task with the mini-aphrodite scenario. Some just don’t get that the GC was because we are better than that. We can beat you without torturing you. And bush is a fool if he thinks he needs a tool like torture to get info from a detainee… Like I said, I agree with you guys a lot, I just happen to feel conservative on many issues. I appreciate spirited debates, and I love it when others can point out the errors of my ways. As I hope they will enjoy when I return the favor. You seem to be a smart and thoughtful person… If it weren’t for you I probably wouldn’t still be here in the first place. Thanks for being a good person PLC. It’s a pleasure exchanging posts with you.
coachjason
September 20th, 2006 at 9:24 amAnd thank you for your honesty, service to our country, and thoughtfullness. I may not agree with you on some issues, but you strike me as a caring, reasonable person. I appreciated your comments on my exchange with MA – especially since I was questioning myself on whether I was simply “over the top” or being cruel. Your post helped me put this in context of the history of posts by MA and by me, and to recognize it is MA’s problem, not mine.
This the first time McCain has made any sense. In the past he has sounded like an Israeli or a member of the Bush family. Personally I think he was a snitcher when he was locked up. He seems too weak.
September 20th, 2006 at 9:37 amcoachjason
The first paragraph really depends on where you draw the line between something being a human being, and something not being a human being quite yet. The Bible does not give a clear distinction and therefore one can be a Pro Choice Christian.
As an Atheist I am actually pretty iffy on late term abortions though. I support a woman’s right to choose, and if carrying the baby to term means death for the mother I can still support late term abortions, but for the most part after a point one needs to say “This is the point of no return.”
That said:
You don’t need to sound afraid of a war, but by the same token you don’t need to beat the war drums. Those drums are scaring your allies away, and uniting your enemies against you. Right now it is the wrong time to invade Iran and Iran knows it. Right now, the time is right to calm the situation down, to stop the panic, and to start getting sneaky.
You need your politicians and your pundits to start quieting down, and to let the issue slide until you are ready to do something about it. It is no good threatening to do something when everybody can see it will spell disaster for you to carry out that threat, you need to be able to do it without destroying yourselves. It is time for the war drums to fall silent, and for the people in charge to start thinking about where to go from here.
September 20th, 2006 at 9:38 am#133 – “If another country invaded us on a whim, I wonder what Mighty Aphrodite would do to defend herself.” Comment by Mr. Evil
*******If we were invaded “on a whim”?? I would thank God Prog-wacks had not completely dismantled the Second Amendment. Your ignorant assumption that Iraq was invaded “on a whim” suggests you know little, if anything, of the terms and conditions of the cease fire which halted the military hostilities in the Gulf War. The Cease Fire was NOT a Peace Treaty, but a diplomatic tool attached to various conditions. When those conditions were violated, a resumption of hostilities would be a reasonable expectation.
As your initial argument is fundamentally FLAWED, I won’t bother discussing the rest of your “scenario”. An argument with as much strength as sand castles is easily toppled.
But I NEVER doubt your love for your son…..
September 20th, 2006 at 10:58 amDemocrat Soldier
We don’t aim anger at the previous administration, because hell what are they going to do about it? We don’t screech about liberals this and liberals that, we kind of noticed who took all three houses and the supreme court. We have accepted that GWB and the Republicans are the government of America and thus we hold them accountable for there stuff-ups.
Meanwhile Aphro is still blaming Clinton for every screw-up. Still blaming the liberals who have never been further from power, she is still screeching on like a broken record about how all things liberal are evil. She has never actually accepted the fact that the neocons won, they are the government and therefore the neocons are responsible for their actions while in government. She has never accepted it so she continues to blame the liberals. She is constantly turning to Bill Clinton for the answers and he doesn’t have them because he isn’t the president yet somewhere deep down inside, he is the president to Mighty Aphrodite.
I mean she has intellectually accepted GWB is president, but she has never actually emotionally accepted him. This is something we can all understand, after all wouldn’t we like to be able to say GWB was never president? Unfortunately, the reality is much much different. The president is a much dumber monkey then usual and it is not going to get better until people start holding him accountable.
September 20th, 2006 at 11:52 amNah, Bruce – your reflexive “brain” is getting in the way again….. I have ALWAYS said I thought Mr. Bill did the best job he could with the information he had. The fact that the first WTC trial ended in convictions is a testament to his law enforcement perception of the problem – and he should not be blamed for a limited view due to limited information. Unlike TP and the majority of posters here, I have no problem praising my opponents strengths and good characteristics. Unlike those members of the RABID Left, I do NOT blindly hate my opponents. A foreign concept to the “intelligensia”, but true nonetheless…..
Later….
September 20th, 2006 at 12:34 pm#154 – Bruce, I agree. Mighty Aphro wants to place all the blame for the failures of the Bush Administration on the Democrats because she cannot face the truth that they’re Republican failures.
It’s so much easier for regressives, neo-cons and radical-right whining lemmings to blame others for their own failures. That way, they don’t have to take responsibility for their own behavior.
For the regressive wing, “taking responsibility” is always for others to do and never themselves. If they could ever get past their knee-jerk reactionary hate for anyone who disagrees with them, maybe they’d wake up to their own failures.
I can’t wait for them to lose majority status so that their excessive behavior, bloated government, runaway spending, and massive debt can be stopped.
This pathetic exercise in one-party-federal-rule is showing that the elected Republicans engage in the behaviors they claim to abhor.
September 20th, 2006 at 1:06 pm[...] read more | digg story [...]
September 20th, 2006 at 1:21 pmSooooooo….is Bill trying to equate the US being part of the Geneva Convention and ignoring it’s rules with us being like N. Vietnam? Or that we should be acting like they did?? I’m confused.
September 20th, 2006 at 1:25 pmInstances like this D’Amoto incident that really demonstrates the moral and intellectual bankruptcy of the Bush cultists…
…Bush is a military deserter, Cheney a deferment king, Rove a deferment punk…
…EVERYONE of these COWARDS…
…receive the loyalty of the brain dead Bushite worshippers…
…while bonafide war HEROES like McCain (whom I don’t support for president either because of his lack of morality in falling in lock step with the Bushites)…
…are vilified and reviled for NOT being a trained political monkey…
…”conservative” ideologues are disgusting, subhumans with no souls…
September 20th, 2006 at 1:59 pm[...] You’ve got to be kidding…the GOP is now saying that McCain should be ignored for his views on the Geneva Convention and illegal torture because “he was so traumatized by his own experiences.†It’s because of those experiences that John McCain SHOULD be the one spear heading this fight to keep the Geneva Convention whole and unchanged. Bill Frist is now saying that it’s the GOP’s job to rubber stamp the President and that’s it. Hmmn…thank goodness for us that some of the GOP actually wants to think for themselves sometimes. [...]
September 20th, 2006 at 2:06 pm#159 – “conservative†ideologues are disgusting, subhumans with no souls…” Comment by big+papa
“as opposed to “progressive” ideologues, who are delightful, super-humans with no souls – in the fine atheist tradition….”
September 20th, 2006 at 2:42 pmadditional comment by BP
Hey, all you repugnantblicans, I bet a BJ doesn’t seem so bad in comparison to the toture, death and destruction of our freedoms huh.
September 20th, 2006 at 3:54 pmOk, so just about everybody I know has been talking for a decent while about how terrible this administration is, how many laws they’ve broken, how many innocent people have been harmed because of them, and I live in a heavily republican area. My question is this: when will Americans stand up for their rights? We’ve got to take a stand and let Dubya and his cronies know that what he’s doing is wrong, and we won’t let him get away with it. But here’s the thing that kills me: everybody is perfectly content to sit around on the computer and talk about it in a blog. We’ll say how terrible the administration is, and how we want things to be different, but that’s about as far as the though process goes. Occasionaly one of us might send a letter to somebody or commit some other meaningless gesture, but that really won’t change anything. I don’t blame us. We’ve all got busy lives to lead. We’ve got work, school, families, and other things that are more important than making a difference.
If you think that this government is not doing a good job of representing the American people, then why pledge your allegiance to it? The best thing you can do is annoy and anger the administration through nonviolent protest. Don’t pay your taxes to a government that doesn’t support you. March, sit, stand, walk, run, boycott, or do anything in incredibly large or small numbers. Read “Civil Disobedience†by Henry David Thoreau. Don’t stand for this anymore. Comment by america
This made so much sense to me. We need to organize, take concrete action. We may “own the internet” but the Republicans own the media and who is making more headway? How can we make ourselves heard?
September 20th, 2006 at 4:13 pmWhat do you expect when you’re bombing villages and killing innocent civilians? A stay at the Ritz-Carlton?
September 20th, 2006 at 4:44 pmWow. These guys are REACHING. If I were McCain, I’d smack the shit out of these two cowardly hacks.
September 20th, 2006 at 4:46 pm#164 – “What do you expect when you’re bombing villages and killing innocent civilians? A stay at the Ritz-Carlton?” Comment by DC
******Dear DC – Of course not, a loyal radical Leftist would “appropriate” the Ritz-Carlton and allow it to be taken over by the oppressed. For our countries “enemy detainees” lets stash them at the Hilton. (I NEVER stay at a Hilton property due to that walking trash bag, Paris.)
September 20th, 2006 at 4:58 pmBut Joe Scarborough thinks that all this “debating” is helping Bush.
September 20th, 2006 at 6:42 pmIt’s GOP Kool-Aid Time. Pure Poison.
What makes the pap on this website any more “fair and balanced” than what’s on Fox? Because you say it is? Stop hating long enough to learn from history. Look up these this name: Neville Chamberlain. See how he helped Hitler. Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it. The same people who thought that Hitler was a nice guy probably would like Ahmenijad and Chavez too. You know, both sides are so blind that we are going to be caught with our pants down again.
September 20th, 2006 at 9:41 pmD’Amato and his pal Koch are a couple of low life has-beens.
September 20th, 2006 at 10:35 pm“Can’t help but agree with Clyde the Ripper McCain is an American hero, anything less than the utmost respect for the man is despicable.”
“You have to believe _________, or you are wrong.” Hmmmmmmmm, where have I heard that before?
Call me despicable. He does ’say’ what the people want to hear. I have never met the man and don’t personally know anyone that has. He is a politician and there is no way that you can tell me that there has been no misrepresentations on his part, all politicians do it to some extent.
September 21st, 2006 at 2:38 pmDoes that mean that I don’t respect him at all? No, it doesn’t, I do respect some of the things that he has proposed and the fact that he served in the military. I hold the gov’t responsible for the ‘conflicts’ that we are involved in, not the soldiers that are told that we are in danger and need to be fighting this person or that regime.
I’ll try to reach moral reprobates by abandoning appeals to decency, and apply to their sense of pragmatism: If the world knows we torture, then we make battle for our troops all the more deadly. In every war–including Iraq–people who fought us surrendered. They did so because they knew they’d be treated humanely. Because of our reputation, we had situations over and over where large numbers of opponents surrendered to us. That ended in Iraq after the Abu Ghraib torture scandal. In other words, if people fighting us know that they’ll be raped and tortured, they’ll fight to the death–making the situation far more volatile and dangerous for our soldiers in the field. THAT’S THE REALITY. Torture–more than damaging our national reputation–hurts our troops.
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