BREAKING: McCain Reaches Agreement With Bush On Military Tribunals
BREAKING: McCain Reaches Agreement With Bush On Military Tribunals
NBC News reports that President Bush and Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) have reached a deal on military tribunals. Details of the compromise have yet to be released, but according to news accounts, “the White House has dropped its insistence on redefining the obligations of the United States under the Geneva Conventions.”
No word yet on whether Senate Judiciary Committee Chairman Arlen Specter (R-PA) has also agreed to the compromise. Specter earlier took issue with the McCain, Warner, and Graham position:
I disagree with Senator McCain, Graham and Warner and the president trying to eliminate habeas corpus, that is judicial review, because we have so many complicated matters. When you come to the Geneva Convention, we have to follow the Geneva Convention.
More details to follow.
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McCain sold out. All you have to do is read that he “reached a deal” and that says it all.
September 21st, 2006 at 2:56 pmSen. Specter “I disagree with Senator McCain, Graham and Warner and the president trying to eliminate habeas corpus, that is judicial review, because we have so many complicated matters. When you come to the Geneva Convention, we have to follow the Geneva Convention.”
Every now and again, a Republican says the right thing. This is something that I believe that all Americans can agree upon, that we must maintain our standards or lose what makes us better than the terrorists.
If we decide to torture “just in this one case”, how can we claim to have better morals than those we oppose? It cannot be “morality of convenience”. It must remian sacrosanct or it means nothing at all.
September 21st, 2006 at 2:57 pmOkay, is this an indication that bush can compromise and we don’t live in some totalitarian state run by an out of control dictator. Oh, and is it further evidence that all republicans are not in mindless lockstep with the president. It’s okay to say yes.
September 21st, 2006 at 2:57 pmBush’s plan to destroy the world is not going very well this week.
September 21st, 2006 at 2:57 pmJust keep in mind that McCain is not a “maverick” and him reaching an agreement with (other) establishment figures is hardly groundbreaking.
September 21st, 2006 at 2:59 pmQuestion- is the Geneva #3 issue the same or different than the habeas corpus issue. I am still trying to get a complete understanding as to the issues. Anyone have a Cliff’s notes primer.
O/T Just watched Bush and Wolfie and that man is insane. “let me finish!let me finish!!!” He is totally insane. You can see it in his eyes.
September 21st, 2006 at 2:59 pmAs we speak a Signing Statement is being prepared…..Again.
Bush is a War criminal who used waterboarding, an internationally recognized method of torture. No one can refute that. Chimpy himself does not refute that. However Felonies of high office and war crimes do not matter…..back to breaking spinich news.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:03 pmSURPRISE! SURRRRRRRRRRPRIIIIIISSSSSE!
Ssssheeeesh!
Hello, Reid!
Anybody, ?????
Anybody got the Filibuster ready!???
September 21st, 2006 at 3:03 pm#1, That was my first reaction as well.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:06 pmReached a deal means that Bush promised McCain something in 2008 for this favor.
#3, Paul
I am not so quick to think that Bush compromised. That word is not in his lexicon.
#6
I saw that too. “let me finish, lemme finish” and then what did he say in reply to the question “Why haven’t we caught OBL?”
He said – He is hiding. That is the answer that Bush was so eager to complete.
The man is a complete moron.
Totally insane may be a little over the top, but it looks like he’s had a very bad week. He doesn’t have many friends at the U.N., and then he has to go to a place where the real knives come out: CNN
September 21st, 2006 at 3:09 pmAnother agreement, another signing statement
September 21st, 2006 at 3:09 pm#6 – I’ll defer to those who have done more legwork here, but no Geneva #3 is nothing to do with habeas corpus. HC is a traditional common law dating back to 1215. Simply put: no detention without speedy trial, right to confront accuser and evidence. Unfortunately that has already been suspended in the US in the case of Jose Padilla, who was held at His Majesties’ pleasure in a brig in Virginia for 3 years. Geneva #3 is about the treatment of combatants captured doing a conflict – you know, don’t humiliate them, torture them or kill them.
My comment on the McCain deal – McCain is simply posing for the 2008 run here – he knows and we know he knows that Chimpy will add a signing statement to this deal saying ‘whatever, I’m not following this law’ as he did with McCain’s last torture law. McCain is very similar to Clinton, waving about in the breeze, whichever way the wind blows just to be in front the cameras. Strike a pose, John.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:13 pmWhat happened the last time that Bush compromised with McCain? That’s right: signing statement #555.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:14 pm#7 Right On, Man. I would rather have tens thousands of Americans dying on American soil than endure one terrorist waterboarding! Keep up the fight!
September 21st, 2006 at 3:15 pmmc(imaginary)pain always sells out. this way, he will “feel good” in his own personal hell
September 21st, 2006 at 3:18 pmwhat human scum he eats
bush the Bitch needs to be neutered. Too bad the Repugs and a number of Dems in Congress have been first. I think bush just took what was left of McCain’s sackual package. Probably put it in the jar on the nightstand with the rest.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:22 pmDid DUHbya show McPain the sighing statement that will go along with the “compromise”?
September 21st, 2006 at 3:23 pmGeneva #3 actually does apply to HB.
Quote:
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
/Quote
That would apply to HB IMO.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:24 pm#12 thanks for that. That’s right. Habeas Corpus is part of the Magna Carta. I should know that after all my years of “Law and Order”.
So what is Mccain at al still hiding with this so-called “compromise”?
or should I not be cynical at all about him and Graham’s motives?
September 21st, 2006 at 3:25 pm#18 – ah thanks Chris – standing (actually sitting) corrected.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:27 pm#14 Buffy,
Funny! Good one!
September 21st, 2006 at 3:28 pmThe devil is in the details, and the signing statements. This means nothing, less than nothing. Does anyone have any doubt that chimperor will use his odius “signing statements” (dictator defects if you ask me) and ignore any law congress might be inclined to fence him in with?
September 21st, 2006 at 3:29 pmSigning statements and ex post facto laws are all bushit has left and he will fling them at us like handfulls of shit from an irritated ape. God save the united states from the evil within.
No it’s not. Bush didn’t compromise. McCain did.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:29 pm#14 You stupid bitch – why would you insist on living in a TV fantasy world where tough guys wrest the truth from bad guys in the nick of time, saving the babies and puppies from annihilation? Torture produces lies, not nick-of-time defusings of bombs with :007 left on their timers. Furthermore, why would you care to perpetuate cowardice in our populace by reiterating the threat of tens of thousands of anyone may die anywhere at any time? The only real place that tens of thousands have died lately is in Iraq, and it’s the fault of YOU and the maniacal assholes you like to vote for. How have you become so frightened, cowardly and ignorant of what’s going on in the ACTUAL world??!!?!? Wait, that’s right – you watch fox and lap up Coulter’s vomit. You ought to be slapped across the face and involuntarily insitutionalized.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:30 pmQuote:
(d) The passing of sentences and the carrying out of executions without previous judgment pronounced by a regularly constituted court affording all the judicial guarantees which are recognized as indispensable by civilized peoples.
Yeah but doesn’t say you can’t be denied habeus corpus and tortured to death. This only applies to the passing of sentences and carrying out of executions. The black bag universe is different. Ask that poor canadian man who was whisked off the streets of his home and tortured for a year in Syra; no charges, no trial; no nothing…..they just tortured the man, who never knew anything and was guilty of nothing. Oh maybe being brown.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:30 pmI feel sorry for McCain, Bush tells everybody his wife has a “black baby”, he tucks tail and accepts the insult. Bush tells everybody not to listen to McCain on “torture” issues because he’s brain damaged from his own torture in VietNam, and he tucks tail and kisses Bush’s balls. What must it be like to be that much of a wimp to be another politician’s ballwasher?
September 21st, 2006 at 3:30 pmCNN? Ha.
I think that all Bush needs is to spend some more time in front of the reports that were in the Rose Garden on Friday.
Anybody who hasn’t seen the press conference in the Rose Garden on Friday needs to see it. Bush gets ripped up one side and down the other.
You can watch the video straight from the White House web site:
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/09/20060915-2.html
September 21st, 2006 at 3:33 pmNo. 10 Paul said: “where the real knives come out : cnn”
wtf? are you serious? Give me a break.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:33 pmAfter the new pictures hit the world stage Bush will be on trial for torture and his rubber stamp Congress can’t help him. The torture by Bush and his team are worse then Saddam. The world will see the real Axis of Evil aka George W. Bush. If the Branches of government pass the Bush torture bill our troops will start being kidnapped and torture the same way we’re treating the Iraq/Afgan prisoners. So much for all the talk about support our troops the United States could care less about our soldiers and the actions taken show it. Tony Snow said our troops are only numbers not humans so I guess that the American way now. King George rules the United States but not the world.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:33 pmChicken Sh!t Chickenhawk.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:34 pmRemember, there was an agreement reached between McCain and Bush on McCain’s anti-torture amendment. Bush agreed to the amendment, if Congress stripped jurisdiction away from the prisoner’s in Guantanamo. Congress did it’s part, and Bush wrote a signing statement nullifying the McCain amendment against torture.
I’m not expecting this compromise to be any move forward in protecting human rights. Remember, 70 -90% of those tortured are innocent.
When this bill comes out, read it. Ask yourself if you would want to be held, interrogated, tried, convicted, and punished, even executed, under its provisions. Would you want any of our service women and men to be treated the way we would treat others under the bill?
September 21st, 2006 at 3:35 pmI wonder what tghe sigining statement attached to this bill will say? Probably same as all the others where he invokes his executive privledge to do as he pleases.
#14 thousands of Americans have died in wars over the years. These men swore to uphold and defend the constitution. As part of that these men almost to a man believed that they are doing the right thing and that America has a moral superiority to the rest of the world. We were able to have that sense of superiority because we were the guys who stopped the torturers, we have not been the torturers until now. Your statement makes not one bit of sense. Those we capture and torture have not given us any useful information, at least not according to anybody with credibility. Only administration official say otherwise. Throughout history, be it the Spanish Inquisition, the Nazi’s the Soviets whomever, torture has not been an effective tool in gaining information. It has been an effective tool in getting people to say what you want them to say though. The only conclusion that I can arrive at regarding this administrations not wanting to rule torture out is that 1) Bush is a bully, it is pretty well known that he has been all his life, from Prep School through Yale and it shows with his desire to call everybody names. 2) Because he is a bully it plays to the base to torture people. The rightwing base does not respect the rule of law because they fear that some of the accused may be released. SO if they get released, at least we will get to take piece out of them first. 3) They do it because they can, and because they like it.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:35 pmBet he does Yet Another Signing Statement. Remember the crap he pulled after the Torture law was passed?
September 21st, 2006 at 3:35 pmI don’t buy this BS argument that we have to TORTURE in order to save American lives. What ever happened to law enforcement and intelligence gathering? Americans need to quit watching so many stupid TV shows and movies.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:36 pm#7 Right On, Man. I would rather have tens thousands of Americans dying on American soil than endure one terrorist waterboarding! Keep up the fight!
Comment by Buffy
Buffy should have wrote.
I would rather undermine all the freedoms that are provided by our Constitution because there is a threat to the US and I am scared.
Nice strawman by the way Buffy. I wouldn’t trust cowards that want to give up the things we are fighting for to win against any threat posed to the US. Never.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:41 pmoh gee, oh wow, what a shocker.
That Sen. John McCain is oh soo Presidentially sexy standing up to
that big bad-cop Bush.
Barf.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:42 pmThe good news is that anything this pack of jackals passes in the next weeks can be repealed after November. I also suspect tribunals will not meet the Supreme Court test when it inevitibly gets appealed even if it goes forward.
September 21st, 2006 at 3:45 pmAs native Pennsylvanian, it is really embarrassing to have a RINO like Arlen Spector continually being on the wrong side of the issues, making an ass out of himself, and in the process making the Keystone State look bad. We already have the worst governor in the union. Why are we made to also suffer a fool like Arlen Spector?
September 21st, 2006 at 3:59 pmMy question is whether this compromise still contains the “pardon provisions” that prevent the previous violations from being prosecuted as violations of the Geneva Conventions, and our own Constitution. I bet it does. That’s the real reason Bush is “compromising”.
This whole push to get a deal done is a safeguard, or a get-out-of-jail card, for the Bush Administration in case Congress gets subpoena powers in November vis-a-vis a Democratic swing. We knew that a deal was going to get done for that reason alone.
September 21st, 2006 at 4:10 pmWhy is Paul overstating this notion of compromise? Give me a break. We ARE talking about compromising to prevent the use of torture, preserving the Geneva Conventions (if we can even assume that is the compromise) — not exactly gray issues here — not to mention the ability of those accused in a capital case to actually seek a hearing so they know what they are accused of — WOW, not exactly novel issues upon which reasonable people could rationally agree.
The fact that only three Republicans stepped up to stop this train wreck, while the apologist enablers were more than willing to clownishly walk in lock-step in their big, floppy shoes following the biggest clown of them all says it all really. Pathetic it even came to this.
September 21st, 2006 at 4:12 pmYes…it is sad that “compromise” now means seems to mean “follow some of the American laws and some of the American values.”
September 21st, 2006 at 4:19 pmI would rather have tens thousands of Americans dying on American soil than endure one terrorist waterboarding! Keep up the fight!
Now there’s a strawman. As if torture could have prevented 9/11. Riiiight.
September 21st, 2006 at 4:20 pm#14, States;
#7 Right On, Man. I would rather have tens thousands of Americans dying on American soil than endure one terrorist waterboarding! Keep up the fight!
#21 Swigs his kool-aid
We are just left wondering when your last moral fiber died?
Only an unconscionable RAPE-PUBLIC-CAN can be foolish enough and Anri-American enough to discard our constitutional rights of 4th Ammendments and scoof as insignificant our “perogative” of torture because we are the good guys.
These emotionally, spiritually, and intellectually bankrupt RAPE-PUBLIC-CANS close their eyes to the illegal rendition programs in which INNOCENT people have been kidnapped and tortured. They needn’t be bothered because it is not them. So reveals their ignorance of history and short sighted means to win the hearts and minds of those we must not influence to do us harm. Military actions are warranted and we are not enforcing them smartly but thats a too complicated issue for your dichotomous pea brains.
Funny that I am willing to fight and defend YOUR rights but you hold those rights with the disdain of an excrement.
Again, when did your last moral fiber die?
September 21st, 2006 at 4:21 pmKeeping up my own specific brand of anti-torture protest:
September 21st, 2006 at 4:27 pm
#42 — oops, should have said “could rationally disagree” — also, some noted that Buffy’s post was a “nice” strawman — strawman it was but I would describe it as predictable and moronic. Way to go Buffy, your insight is about as deep as a petri dish — you deserve to be whisked away from JFK, taken to Syria, waterboarded, beaten with electrical cords, exposed to extreme hypothermia naked with your sagging dugs dragging across the dirt floor of your 3X7 cell. Of course, no doubt for you torture would be as little as missing the latest installment of “American Idol” and going without your Big Gulp and Cheetos — you completely inane, moronic empty vessel. Better yet, you should be summarily executed just for being irretrievabley stupid.
September 21st, 2006 at 4:29 pmPaul (#3),
I sincerely hope you were using sarcasm in your remark. If not, well then you have uttered the typical mantra of the mindless 33% or so of this country that accepts blindly in faith that “W” is a Christian and wouldn’t lie, break a law, covet his neighbor’s property, dishonor his parents, worship graven idols (oil money), and use the Lord’s name in vain. How many of the Ten Commandments is that? You know the kind, those who run back to the flock (”W”) when the price of gas mysteriously goes down two months before the mid-term elections.
As for me, I’ll wait until the details are released, or at least those that actually make it to the news. Oh yeah, I won’t be listening to Fow either because I don’t really like or feel informed by their “brand” of balanced news coverage. I really hope that McCain hasn’t “rolled over”, but it wouldn’t really surprise me….
Anyone know the number of days left of Dub U’s reign?
Can’t be soon enough for me…..
September 21st, 2006 at 4:47 pmPaul (#3),
I sincerely hope you were using sarcasm in your remark. If not, well then you have uttered the typical mantra of the mindless 33% or so of this country that accepts blindly in faith that “W” is a Christian and wouldn’t lie, break a law, covet his neighbor’s property, dishonor his parents, worship graven idols (oil money), and use the Lord’s name in vain. How many of the Ten Commandments is that? You know the kind, those who run back to the flock (”W”) when the price of gas mysteriously goes down two months before the mid-term elections.
As for me, I’ll wait until the details are released, or at least those that actually make it to the news. Oh yeah, I won’t be listening to Fow either because I don’t really like or feel informed by their “brand” of balanced news coverage. I really hope that McCain hasn’t “rolled over”, but it wouldn’t really surprise me….
Anyone know the number of days left of Dub U’s reign?
Can’t be soon enough for me…..
September 21st, 2006 at 4:47 pmSo in other words the White House lost.
And in true Rovian style, they’ll probably declare victory.
September 21st, 2006 at 4:59 pmWhen our troops are tortured like the torture we do let’s remember that rubber stamp Americans gave Bush. As for McCain well it this happen while he was a prisoner of war you can bet he would call for the impeachment of the President but ya it’s easy to let others die in the name of King George. The world is watching and will follow the same policy as our troops will be kidnapped, tortured and killed. Thanks King George and all those who support criminal acts.
September 21st, 2006 at 5:02 pmCompromise? I haven’t laughed this hard all week!
I hardly think any discussion or decision made between Bush and McCain would fir the Webster’s definition of ‘compromise’. I did, however, look up what ‘quid pro quo’ means again, just to make sure.
Yep, I was right.
September 21st, 2006 at 5:15 pmWHAT’S in the deal?
The CIA gets to resume ‘questioning’ – HOW?
There is nothing that comes out of this Republican-controlled, Bush government that I trust. This is the lyingest, LEASTdemocratically-inspired group of people ever to get into power in the U.S.
September 21st, 2006 at 5:27 pmWhat are some other interrogation techniques we could use to get the information we need considering these terrorist have been trained to lie about what they know as well as how they are treated if captured?
http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/manualpart1_4.pdf
I am assuming no one here is against interrogating terrorists…right?
September 21st, 2006 at 5:33 pmAnyone know the number of days left of Dub U’s reign?
Can’t be soon enough for me…..
Comment by Still in Shock and Awe of the state of our country
851 – at most. Could be less depending on what happens in just under seven weeks. Not much consolation, I know, but at least it isn’t more than that. And we know that Rockey won’t get his wish and Bush won’t be president for a third term. So there’s that. Hang in there. Our long national nightmare will soon be over. And if we’re lucky, we’ll still have a nation at the end of it.
September 21st, 2006 at 5:50 pmTracy
You can interrogate CONFIRMED terrorists all day long, as long as you adhere to Geneva. We’ve asked no less of other countries, I’m having a hard time understanding why we’re struggling to meet that same expectation.
I’ll do you one better: listen to the intelligence community and generals on the ground maybe? Naw, they’re suddenly not ‘with the (PNAC) program”.
September 21st, 2006 at 5:50 pm#49 – Still in Shock and Awe of the state of our country,
September 21st, 2006 at 6:05 pmI have 851 days left. We can always hope that he is impeached earlier.
We can choose to end torture
September 21st, 2006 at 6:31 pm#50. I’m agnostic (atheist with an open mind) and I cringe when bush evokes god in speeches. I would prefer if bush was not a christian.
September 21st, 2006 at 7:03 pmI assume you come to your opinions through your experiences. my open-minded liberal friends on this site are convinced, if someone doesn’t believe the way they do, they are mindless. If it makes you feel better, republicans are mindless. Is it a strategy for changing the course of things. I don’t know. By the way, what’s sarcasm?
Thank God for John McCain, Sen Warner, and Sen Graham holding out for what is right. The President has become so drunk with power that he is starting to scare the American people. He acts like the little dictators he is so upset with in the Middle East. This guy thinks the prohibition against torture is nothing more than a nuisence and he couldn’t be farther from the truth. He’s trying to turn our decent soldiers into SS storm troopers who will do anything to prisoners in the name of following orders. If I recall that’s what the Nazi used as a defense during the trial at Nuernberg shortly after WWII.
Doesn’t Mr. Bush think that we are better than the Nazi SS troops under the rule of Himler and his henchmen. We as a people have to stand up for what is right regardless of the fact that we are dealing with a bunch of murdering idiots who choose of attack us on 9-11. If we start messing around with the Geneva Conventions we open the door for others to do the same with jepardizes our soldier if captured. For Mr. Bush to disregard the sound advice of people like Secretary Powell, and from Secretary of States George Schultz is to tread on our right to claim moral high ground that we’ve held since our becoming a civilized country.
Any fool who takes away our ability to claim to be better than the terrorists damages the moral fiber of American. I can not stand by and watch all that we have fought so many wars for to be lost by a power crazy idiot who refused to fight in Viet Nam when he was a young man. It is easy to sit on the sidelines and hold someone coat while they fight in a bloody war that you started. I served my country for years in the United States Army including as an Infantryman, and I’m sure glad I didn’t get captured by a country that could decide on it’s own not to follow the Geneva Conventions. They say there’s not I in we, but apparently Dubya thinks, “We the people”, means ” I the President can do anything I want”.
September 21st, 2006 at 7:09 pm“Every professional in the intel gathering business knows torture/harsh treatment is counter productive.” Utter bullshit. How about you contact say every POW that was held in Hanoi Hilton and ask them if torture worked on them. Given enough time and discomfort you will break.
September 21st, 2006 at 7:10 pm#7 Right On, Man. I would rather have tens thousands of Americans dying on American soil than endure one terrorist waterboarding! Keep up the fight!
Comment by Buffy — September 21, 2006 @ 3:15 pm
===========================
Why are you guys on the far right so paranoid? The only time Muslim extremists came anywhere near killing 10,000 Americans was on September 11, while an unelected dimwit was in office.
September 21st, 2006 at 7:15 pm“Every professional in the intel gathering business knows torture/harsh treatment is counter productive.†Utter bullshit. How about you contact say every POW that was held in Hanoi Hilton and ask them if torture worked on them. Given enough time and discomfort you will break.
Comment by Retired+Republican+Soldier — September 21, 2006 @ 7:10 pm
===================
Why didn’t you contact them to dispute his claim?
September 21st, 2006 at 7:26 pmThere is no compromise bill. Period.
There are compromise positions on certain points, but no bill.
There are several alternate bills (including John Warner’s) that approach various aspects of the topics of what is allowed outside and inside of current US agreements and Law regarding holding, treatment, right to courts, and trials of terror suspects (also “enemy combatants”).
This news story was announced to NBC by interests who yearn to promote that there is a concerted GOP approach. There is not. There will be several days of discussion/debate and also much arm twisting by the administration.
The eventual outcome, if agreed upon, will be highly challenged for Constitutionality by the Supreme Court and will likely be thrown back for another round. Even if Congress makes a law, if unconstitutional then the law will be negated.
Meanwhile, at some juncture innocent persons who have suffered under ‘rendition’, will after several Federal Court blocks and dismissals, be be successful at forcing the US to own up to its responsibility. When finally allowed, these court cases, I’m afraid, will look an awfully close to the one going on in Iraq right now concerning Sadam. There is no way that justice will remain silent forever. We will have to face up to what we have allowed in the name of “We the people”.
September 21st, 2006 at 7:33 pmYes, there is a compromise and a concerted GOP front….
that and there are giant alligators in the sewers of NYC and cages at your favorite local chinese restaurant (I KNOW cause a friend of mine from the health department told me).
HOAX, HOAX, HOAX, HOAX.
Time to call BS.
Listen to John Warner talk about it. You may not agree with him, but he is a man of integrity — there is no “deal” until a bill is through Congress.
September 21st, 2006 at 7:53 pmFor all those so called Americans and elected officials who say they support our troops they be held responsible when other countries use the Bush torture bill to torture and kill our troops. We have shown the world that the United States is leader of the Axis of Evil and our torture is worse then Saddam. Our country can be proud of itself for we are now the horror of the world. No problem using the Atomic Bomb is a country doesn’t obey King George’s rule or killing again millions of innocent people. All the countries of the world should get ready to be attack by Dr. Evil aka George Bush no one is safe and he will attack a friend in the blink of an eye. Pakistan found that out if they didn’t obey Bush the US would use the Atomic Bomb to wipe out the country.
September 21st, 2006 at 8:49 pmIf the democrats cant get together enough force to fillibuster when basic rights are at stake, they dont deserve my vote
September 21st, 2006 at 9:36 pmBREAKING …. another fine distraction for an entire week by the GOP and the GOP run mainstream media to stop you from talking about this:
9 thousand seriously injured troops in Iraq
8 billion dollars per month being spent on the Iraq war
7 .9 trillion in outstanding debt
6 years the republicans have been in control of all 3 branches of gov’t
5 + 4 = 9 billion missing from Iraq construction funds
4 more years of the same
3 hundred thirty three deaths in Afghanistan
2 thousand six hundred seventy eight American soldiers have died in Iraq
1 thousand seven hundred twenty three deaths from Hurricane Katrina
This is why your vote is so important for Democratic candidates on November 7.
September 21st, 2006 at 9:44 pmI am a troop, I support this.
September 21st, 2006 at 9:58 pmWay to go Republicans — now America under the Bush Reich is known for what it is: a country and a people who will torture anybody who disagrees with their political philosophy. They will not stop with so-called terrorists. They will come for you. And as for their Christian ethics — if Jesus was alive today, they would torture Him because He disagreed with the governence of the day…they would be the first to put the nails in and proclaim they were doing it to save the country. Had enough? Last sane person out of America…turn out the lights…
Cyclops
September 21st, 2006 at 10:00 pm#57
The police interrogate SUSPECTED criminals all the time. Your claim that the they have to be confirmed terrorists would make the entire idea of interrogations meaningless half of the time.
September 21st, 2006 at 10:08 pmThe police dont operate under the geneva convultion, they operate under guidelines set by the supreme court. Lil different.
September 21st, 2006 at 10:14 pmI’m looking at this from a different angle. Could it be that this is the way BushCo is going to sink McCain’s run for the presidency?
Bush can agree to anything his rancid heart desires, because he’s got a little thing called a “signing statement.” He doesn’t give a sh*t what’s in any bill.
But McCain is seen once again cuddling up to the Boy King, after having been publicly slapped across the face repeatedly. Every time we see McCain, what do we think? That’s right: Weak, weak, weak…
Who does BushCo have in mind for 2008?
September 21st, 2006 at 10:28 pmYeah right zooey, he’s gonna run again. Oh wait it gonna be rumsfeld, or Cheney. Good argument, but stupid.
September 21st, 2006 at 10:31 pmawol was for human dignity….before he thought it “vague”
awol’s speech to the united nations. september 21, 2004.
September 21st, 2006 at 10:45 pmjillian, nice… whats your point. I thought the speach was well thought out but of course, I have an interest in this state and, it looks as if you dont.
September 21st, 2006 at 10:51 pmCalahan,
Is that the best you’ve got? My argument is stupid? Oh man, I’m really hurt now, mortally wounded.
Go back to your obsessive/compulsive masterbation…
September 21st, 2006 at 10:53 pmSorry zooey, only got two weeks, and looking for somone who has an arguement, found this site on my father-in-laws computer and thought how “stupid can people be”, your post really stuck out. He couldnt handle it so he went to bed. I’m still waiting for someting intelligent from you.
September 21st, 2006 at 11:00 pmCalahan,
Why would you have any expectation whatsoever from me? Get lost.
September 21st, 2006 at 11:31 pmWorking on about 25 minutes for your response zooey, getting close to bedtime.
September 21st, 2006 at 11:35 pmyour right, I dont have any expactions whatsoever of you. You’v allready shown you true intelligence. Must have felt really bad during the IQ testing didnt you “honey”
September 21st, 2006 at 11:42 pm#83- ‘Calahan’ As we clearly do not measure up to your ‘high standards’, perhaps your little ol’ trollie self would be happier elsewhere. And you have alot of nerve, insulting Zooey as you have. You would need to crawl out of a pit the depth of the Grand Canyon, just to see Zoo’s shadow. If you want to be a turd, go lay in the yard.
September 21st, 2006 at 11:49 pmCalahan you have said nothing intelligent that I have seen on any of these blog pages. You just run around and call everyone stupid.
That doesn’t take ‘intelligence’ Calahan. Maybe you failed that ‘Stupid” IQ test, Honey?
September 21st, 2006 at 11:54 pmDirty Harry,
You know there is a better way to carry on a conversation than look down your nose at the other guy and call him stupid.
Frankly, that is not an effective way to show your intelligence either.
Continue and we will just ignore you like all the other squqcking seagulls.
September 21st, 2006 at 11:55 pmGive “I am a troop” Calahan a brake. He’s obliviously been two klose to the akshun in Bageldad two halve an ojectionalbe pint of yew.
I swear, if he’d have used the phrase “progs” I would have thought he was MA on qualuudes.
But it seems fitting that one of the most ardent supporters of a simpleton is a simpleton.
Meanwhile, back on topic. I am waiting for a look at the language of this “compromise.” Why the holdup on releasing the language to the public?
September 22nd, 2006 at 12:15 amThanks Cyra,
You’re a sweetie. :)
September 22nd, 2006 at 12:27 am[...] Other views: Huffington Post, Think Progress Tags: Bush, McCain, torture, Geneva Conventions, terror, terrorist [...]
September 22nd, 2006 at 12:44 amhere is the full truth about Olbermann
for mature audiences only
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Myv08r_y6sU
September 22nd, 2006 at 1:41 am#55. What are some other interrogation techniques we could use to get the information we need considering these terrorist(sic) have been trained to lie about what they know as well as how they are treated if captured?
I am assuming no one here is against interrogating terrorists…right?
The simplest answer as to other interrogation techniques is `positive reinforcement,’ which means rewards for cooperation, in the way of food, treatment, privileges. And, not surprisingly, just as we know that torture doesn’t work, we know that `positive reinforcement’ does.
But Tracy’s question reveals an acceptance of false premises, perhaps because there is little to contradict Bush-Cheney dogma in the MSM.
False Premise #1:
Let’s get some clarification before we label people `terrorists’: These are `detainees’ who have been charged with nothing, convicted of nothing in any recognized court of law. Only in `the Court of George,’ which is a rogue operation with no legal authority. It’s being protected by `The Court of the GOP,’ (the Republican-controlled Congress), another `Court,’ that has no legal authority – at least until they succeed in packing the federal courts with neo-fascists. If left standing (Republican-control), it will bring down and end the United States of America. Two-hundred and thirty years, gone. If everything that Bush-Cheney and the Republican-controlled congresses have done these last six years is left to stand, the `experiment in democracy’ is over.
In the U.S., people are innocent until proven guilty. In the U.S., people are held responsible for acts that they commit that are against the law – behavior and not thoughts. Either you believe in the rule of law, or you have no business calling yourself an American.
Many of these detainees are also crime victims: They were kidnapped off of streets in other countries, their own countries, by our CIA and taken to underground prisons and tortured. Completely innocent people, with no ties whatsoever to terrorists. If they weren’t terrorists before, I could certainly understand their seeking out the nearest Al Qaeda recruiting station once they got home.
That’s why we have to hold to our traditions of American jurisprudence, and why the Bush-Cheney approach to the problem of terrorism is so completely off-the-mark, and guaranteed to worsen the problem, not make it better.
Experts agree that the Bush-Cheney plan for eliminating terrorist attacks will not eliminate terrorist attacks. Even Bush and Cheney admit it. The Bush-Cheney plan will never accomplish what Americans want: A pre-9/11 world, in which the U.S. is an admired, respected, and emulated superpower, not targeted for destruction and violent acts of terror. Bush-Cheney have admitted that they can’t deliver that. “An impossible dream.”
It’s not an impossible dream. What existed pre-9/11/01 is not only doable, what existed pre-1993 (the first WTC attack) is achievable. But not with corporate shills in control of U.S. policies and power.
Continue reading…
September 22nd, 2006 at 3:55 amMusharraf: US threatened to bomb Pakistan
The President of Pakistan, General Pervez Musharraf, reveals in an interview to be aired at the weekend that, soon after the terror attacks of 11 September 2001, the United States threatened to bomb his country “back into the Stone Age” if he didn’t offer its co-operation in fighting terrorism and the Taliban.
The revelation was made by General Musharraf during his visit to New York for the annual General Assembly of the United Nations. It comes after a week in which the US has been criticised by a number of foreign leaders for trying to impose its will on other nations.
September 22nd, 2006 at 4:25 amTorture provides Bush false evidence for monstrous lies within Military Tribunerals
Basically The guys on trial will only find out what they’ve been charged with in newpaper stories and be Not able to defend themselfs ……This has to stop
America is getting very very bad press this week….. although NOT unjust
like telling Pakistan it will be bombed to the stone ages if it doed not co-operate in the Afghanistan war on Karma
September 22nd, 2006 at 4:44 am[...] CIA officials say President Bush had to empty the agency’s secret prison network this month “because interrogators had refused to continue their work until the legal situation was clarified because they were concerned they could be prosecuted for using illegal techniques.â€Unfortunately, any GOP attempts to block Bush over his pro-torture bill were all just bluff and bluster to make themselves sound good before the elections…because once again, they’ve rolled over like good little dogs. However the agreement may sound, here’s the main part that matters most: [...]
September 22nd, 2006 at 9:04 amMusharraf also reveals an embarrassing episode in which former CIA director George Tenet confronted him in 2003 with proof that Pakistan’s top nuclear scientist was passing secrets to Libya, Iran and North Korea.
Abdul Qadeer Khan, held as hero in Pakistan for helping to make the country a nuclear power, admitted giving away nuclear secrets in a televised confession in February 2004, exposing a global black market in nuclear technology.
Don’t worry about it, this isn’t a problem.
September 22nd, 2006 at 10:27 amThis is not the nuclear proliferation you are looking for..you can go about your business.
September 22nd, 2006 at 10:35 amThis WHOLE EPISODE was staged…
…to make McCain “look” independent (and rebellious)…
…and to take America’s collective focus off of Bushiva’s failure…
…in Iraq…
September 22nd, 2006 at 1:56 pm#93
“And, not surprisingly, just as we know that torture doesn’t work, we know that `positive reinforcement’ does.”
I know that torture most of the time doesn’t work, but considering these suspected terrorists are trained to lie how would “positive reinforcement” work? Somehow I don’t think the hard core al Qaeda types are going to divulge anything for extra food, better treatment, or more priviledges. Our troops, if captured, are trained not to say anything for just the things you mentioned, so why would al Qaeda terrorists do the same? How do you get fight against people who disregard EVERY rule of war or law? I am NOT condoning torture, I am just asking the question about a type of enemy we have never had to, or wanted to for that matter untill after 9/11, truely deal with.
“…at least until they succeed in packing the federal courts with neo-fascists.”
Like the courts haven’t been packed with liberal judges that disregard the law and make decisions based on their political ideology. I want someone who is going to strictly interpret the constitution, not envoke what they FEEL is right at the time.
“If left standing (Republican-control), it will bring down and end the United States of America. Two-hundred and thirty years, gone.”
Now that’s some serious fear mongering!
“Many of these detainees are also crime victims: They were kidnapped off of streets in other countries, their own countries, by our CIA and taken to underground prisons and tortured.”
Totally wrong, I agree. Surviellance should have been THOROUGHLY worked thru, before nabbing these people.
“…and why the Bush-Cheney approach to the problem of terrorism is so completely off-the-mark, and guaranteed to worsen the problem, not make it better.”
You know Clinton’s treating terrorism like a law enforcement issue had ZERO results in deminishing al Qaeda as a threat. The experts all agree that al Qaeda’s capabilities have be substantially reduced since 9/11.
“Experts agree that the Bush-Cheney plan for eliminating terrorist attacks will not eliminate terrorist attacks.”
No plan will completely eliminate terrorist attacks and you are crasy if you think it’s possible. The only way to reduce the drive for terrorists to want to carry out attacks is SUPPORT democracy and political change, improve economic conditions by promoting democracy, and support free will and choice, something those in the Middle East have yet to realize. If you haven’t noticed democratic countries don’t fight with each other, however, those totalitarian regimes constantly fight with each other.
“It’s not an impossible dream. What existed pre-9/11/01 is not only doable, what existed pre-1993 (the first WTC attack) is achievable.”
I agree as long as we do the above I mentioned and stop trying to treat terrorism strictly like a law enforcement issue rather than a military one as evidence by the fact that Clinton tried this and in turn we got 9/11. FYI there were MULTIPLE terrorist attacks all around the world prior to 9/11, so this rosey picture of peace you try to paint prior to 9/11 is nothing more than a delusion.
September 22nd, 2006 at 3:39 pm#100 – Give it a rest. 9/11 didn’t happen because of anything Clinton did or didn’t do – it happened because the Bush II Administration couldn’t be bothered to pay any attention whatsoever to the threat of terrorism, despite multiple and repeated warnings.
You will NEVER get rid of “terrorism” by waging war – you will only have a never-ending war on your hands.
(The most recent terrorist attempt was actually foiled, apparently at a very early stage, by nothing more than law-enforcement techniques.)
September 22nd, 2006 at 5:04 pm#101
“Give it a rest. 9/11 didn’t happen because of anything Clinton did or didn’t do”
That’s very ignorant on your part to the Nth degree. There isn’t one counter terrorism expert in the world that you could point to that would agree with you.
September 22nd, 2006 at 5:47 pm#102
(The most recent terrorist attempt was actually foiled, apparently at a very early stage, by nothing more than law-enforcement techniques.)”
Are you referring to the Trans Atlantic flight plot? If so then you are completely wrong….unless you think that the NSA is law enforcement.
September 22nd, 2006 at 5:50 pm#103: “(The most recent terrorist attempt was actually foiled, apparently at a very early stage, by nothing more than law-enforcement techniques.)â€
Are you referring to the Trans Atlantic flight plot? If so then you are completely wrong….unless you think that the NSA is law enforcement. ”
Since when is the NSA part of the London Metropolitan Police?
September 22nd, 2006 at 7:44 pmMcCain finally got it right.
September 22nd, 2006 at 8:57 pmI personally emailed all three of the GOP Senators.
Human intelligence (which seems lacking in most of these responses) is the single most important tool we have for fighting terrorism. My troops (I said “my” because most of you hate and don’t claim them) are much safer when we have the tools required to obtain intelligence.
The thought that how we interrogate would somehow make the terrorist mad and want to torture MY troops is ridiculous.
Face the truth…. you all know what they do when they capture one of MY soldiers. They don’t need further movitvation.
They hate us plain and simple and they would kill all of you here even if you hate america because you are not THEM!!!!
If you knew your neighbor had information about a plan to kill your family what would you do to get that information? True liberals please respond!
If we had a terrorist who had info on an impending attack and did nothing to get that info and the attack occured….. you would be the same bunch of idiots who would complain that Bush didn’t do all he could to protect us.
For those of you who felt betrayed by McCain let me point to the fact he is a Republician (well kind of anyway).
#14 Buffy, you ignorant slut!! You have waterboarding AND thousands of Americans dying. Congratulations!!!
#84 You are an utter moron. Would you like me to point out all of your spelling errors? You had better have an excuse…like you are a lush. Otherwise, I think you owe Zooey an apology for denigrating her intelligence while you can’t even spell speech.
September 22nd, 2006 at 9:25 pmSteve, can you parrot right wing talking points any better??? I give you a 10!!!
September 22nd, 2006 at 11:28 pmYou are good a avoiding discussion JPark.
September 23rd, 2006 at 12:44 amCare to point out where I am wrong and how you would make it right? or should I say correct because the word “right” may offend you.
I’ll let you in a a lil secret. I have voted since I was 18 and of all those times I have never voted for just one party. I vote for the best people for the job and I’m guessing that is something you can’t say.
Liberals are in the mess they are in because they stand for nothing… they have no original thoughts or ideas. They wait till the republicans do something and then attack it with out coming up with a better plan. I know why this is… they want to see where the opinion polls come in on a topic before they act.
Are you kidding Stevie? We agree that human intelligence is the most important weapon against an enemy like al Qaeda. Unfortunately, the righties have done NOTHING to improve human intelligence (unless you consider dumping all Arabic speakers). You righties have the Congress, the WH and the Supreme Court and somehow you blame the Dems? Reality check!!!
September 23rd, 2006 at 12:53 amYou couldn’t be more wrong. Clinton gutted the intelligence agencies and placed barriers between them so they couldn’t share information. He also deeply cut our military. Alot has been done to improve this sitituation.
September 23rd, 2006 at 1:10 amI reread my post and I don’t see where you get that I’m blaming Dems. I was just stating that those in the GOP who opposed the WH on this issue finally came to their senses.
How exactly did Clinton gut intelligence agencies? I am guessing that is from the Bureau of Your Own Ass, just like Clinton gutting the military. The facts don’t back it up.
As for you blaming Democrats…”Liberals are in the mess they are in because they stand for nothing… they have no original thoughts or ideas.” I am thinking you either don’t listen to Dems or you really like the neo-con point of view.
September 23rd, 2006 at 1:21 amThe Washington Post
WASHINGTON
President Clinton Thursday sent Congress the detailed version of a $1.52 trillon budget that is already being altered by the politics of compromise.
As promised in Clinton’s earlier budget outline, the president’s 1,478-page plan would slash military spending while raising taxes on energy and on the income of top earners. The administration sliced an additional $1.7 billion from the military budget over five years.
September 23rd, 2006 at 1:54 amClinton counts on improvements in the economy to bring down the overall deficit by some $50 billion over the next five years. In addition, his large defense cuts, an assortment of smaller domestic spending cuts and a healthy dose of new taxes are projected to reduce the deficit by another $450 billion. But defense spending already has come down sharply. As a percentage of the overall economy, the Pentagon budget is now at its smallest point since World War II. Clinton proposes to shrink it further, cutting it from 18 percent of this year’s budget to 14 percent in 1998. Military leaders, and Clinton as well, have said that cutting any deeper than that would be unwise.
This story was published on Friday, April 9, 1993. There are the facts.
Rep. Goss co-authored an op-ed on March 10, 2004, titled “Need Intelligence? Don’t Ask John Kerry.” In it, he wrote: “With the end of the Cold War, some in the Clinton White House and the Democrat-controlled Congress saw the opportunity in the 1990s to sharply curtail spending on one of their least favorite organizations: the Central Intelligence Agency. Especially in the early Clinton years, the cuts were deep, far-reaching and devastating to the ability of the CIA to keep America safe …Where was the junior senator from Massachusetts? Serving as a senior member of the Senate Intelligence Committee … Did he fight the cuts in intelligence spending or the restraints on U.S. intelligence operatives? Far from it. In fact, he was leading the way to make deep and devastating cuts.” [Reps. Porter Goss and Bill Young, Tampa Tribune, 3/10/04] there is some facts for the intelligence.
September 23rd, 2006 at 2:04 amSteve, during the Clinton administration the military budget was raised by 14%.
By the way, if you are listening to Porter Goss, you need a new source.
September 23rd, 2006 at 2:35 amJpark look up this fact:
September 23rd, 2006 at 12:38 pmIn the 1990s scores of bases were closed, and hundreds of thousands of soldiers were demobilized. When the first President Bush launched the Gulf War against Iraq, two million Americans were on active military duty. When the second President Bush launched Operation Iraqi Freedom, the active-duty “end strength,” or head count, was only 1.4 million.
#104
“Since when is the NSA part of the London Metropolitan Police?”
They aren’t but the LMP was not single handedly responsibly for foiling the Trans Atlantic Flight plot…not even close.
September 25th, 2006 at 1:41 pm