In 2005,
By on Oct 1st, 2006 at 12:41 am
In 2005,
two senior national security officials pressed the administration to get congressional approval for its terrorist detention policies. But their memo was rejected and “so angered Defense Secretary Donald H. Rumsfeld that his aides gathered up copies of the document and had at least some of them shredded.”
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Goes right along with the administration’s attitude about a terrorist attack. Ashcroft threatening to fire anyone who brought it up, Bush and Condi out to lunch or on vacation…Didn’t want reality to interfere with their fantasy.
October 1st, 2006 at 12:53 amWow.
Donald Rumsfeld — Queen of the Hissy Fit.
October 1st, 2006 at 1:00 amDoncha wonder what goes through their minds? Cheney, Bush, Rummy are so certain they are right, everyone else is wrong. They won’t even hear of doubts or questions, but want only yes men. They NEVER think they could be wrong. To assuage other people’s doubts, they rewrite laws – but they themselves have no doubts — ever.
October 1st, 2006 at 1:06 amI think its pathological.
Marie,
Here’s a quote I’ve been trying to think of for days. Your comment clunked it into place for me.
If I am fool, it is, at least, a doubting one; and I envy no one the certainty of his self-approved wisdom.
October 1st, 2006 at 1:15 am-George Gordon Byron
The Bush Regime is filled with crazy people and they try to hide everything!
October 1st, 2006 at 1:21 amAnother example of how the current administration lacks moral value, truthfulness and compassion
October 1st, 2006 at 1:29 amOf course Rummy got angry. How dare people expect them to actually get permission about something. I tell ya, the nerve of some folks.
October 1st, 2006 at 1:41 amAmerica’s Least Wanted
Huh, now why can’t the Bush folks see thru this slight of hand?
Here we are 5 years after 9/11 and two wars and still we have not tried even ONE terrorist.
Even Jason Hendler should be able to make sense of this, right?
October 1st, 2006 at 1:41 amCool, so when George and ilk are eventually out of office, they also will have no freedom!!
Awesome logic!
What would we ever do without lawyers and think tanks making us loved by the terrorists!!
October 1st, 2006 at 1:57 amOpen Scab
September 30, 2006
In the article “Woodward: Aides tried to get Bush to dump Rumsfeld†in the Press Democrat, Bob Woodward exposes an insurrection within the Bush administration to rid of the Secretary of Defense, Donald Rumsfeld. If so then the spin is placed: the war in Iraq cannot be found questionable any more than the cabal of George W. Bush. The illusion of stability within the Bush administration cannot be seen less then permanence, constancy from the spirit of America’s heartland and guided by the Light from above. This is how the administration was able to move the electorate, to maintained control of all three federal branches of the government and Congress in spite its quantum level of botched performance and incompetence. Thus the general public accepts the president’s firm standings such as: I do not make mistakes, Stay the course, God told me what to do, I’m right and everyone else is wrong. One of his many blunders is Donald Rumsfeld. In his book, Woodward reveals the staff infighting to rid of the incompetent Rumsfeld, exposing a flaw within the “flawless†administration. Because of Woodward’s book, major damage control is require since the November elections are just around the corner.
October 1st, 2006 at 2:14 amTime to pull Rumsfeld through the shredder.
October 1st, 2006 at 2:20 amDog named Boo:
This new law tries and convicts the so called “terrorists”.
October 1st, 2006 at 3:10 amThat’s the whole point:”No trial for you”.And “no war crimes against us”. It gives BushCo. carte blanche to do as they will with these men;half of which probably did nothing wrong,but sold to U.S. for the $5000 bounty.
McCain sold his soul;again.Bush won;we lose.
#4. Zooey. i’m sure it is a wonderful luxury for George Gordon Byron to question and doubt for as long as he wants. the problem comes when you assume leadership, you don’t have that luxury. if a situation arises, you have to eventually act. if you choose not to aggressively interrogate and we have an attack, you’re guilty of not defending the country. if no attacks happen, you’re guilty of aggressive interrogation.
the problems that progressives have, is that they have been out of power so long, they have forgotten the challenges of leadership. your chance is coming in november. be careful what you wish for, you just might get it.
October 1st, 2006 at 7:17 amHello and HAPPY OCTOBER!! SURPRISE!! Nice new video of Binny and Atta suddenly found. What an unfortunate date stamp. Do you think the timing of this is an accident? Goodby Woodward, goodby Foley, I think you time is up.
October 1st, 2006 at 9:21 amComment by paul — October 1, 2006 @ 7:17 am
Paul, thus far, the international community is of the consensus that “aggressive interrogation” does not work. Again, I challenge YOU to present evidence of just one incident of the ticking time-bomb scenario where a terrorist, under “aggressive interrogation” revealed enough information to stop his/her plot.
I’ve posed this challenge several times, and thus far no one has risen to the task.
The problem NeoCons have, including yourself, is you relish doing violence to your fellow human beings. You thrive on power through brutality and raw force of arms. In that sense, Progressives have never been in power.
Progressives Power comes from the strength of ideas and ideals, concepts such as liberty, equality, brotherhood; that all people are born equal and no one person is above the law. Where you would give us the peace of the graveyard, Progressives seek peace through freedom, justice, equal rights, individual responsibility, economic sufficiency, caring and compassion.
The ultimate end of peace through force is the anhilation of life on this planet. The ultimate end of Peace through Enlightenment is Balance.
I pray your eyes be opened through wisdom, instead of through the horrors of war being visited upon you.
October 1st, 2006 at 9:31 amGreat post, Briseadh na Faire…….Blessings All
October 1st, 2006 at 9:51 amBriseadh na Faire. you make some valid points, but let me ask you: you are head of an agency responsible for the defense of the country. you interrupt a terror cell with plans to detonate a bomb in a major city. you are confident the members have information about the future attack, but lack any further leads. do you let them sit in the cell awaiting a future trial. if the attack occurs in this situation, do you bare any responsibility.
October 1st, 2006 at 9:57 amBriseadh na Faire you can fantasize that people who disagree with you ‘relish doing violence to your fellow human beings’, but it only highlights that you live in a world insulated from reality. the cost for appeasment at all cost is the subjugation of your freedoms. here’s the future of the country if we turn it over to you:
wife: sa’eed, does this burka make me look fat?
you: yoosef, you’re not trimming your beard are you?
you: birrah, i wish you wouldn’t ask me why women are denied the right to vote, and whatever you do, don’t let the neighbors hear you talk about it.
not here please.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:04 amTime to get out the “V” costumes and start marching in the streets.
This is what happens when a man with advancing dementia is in charge of our military. Rumsfeld is a traitor to this nation and should be hung in the public square in Washington DC for all the nation to see.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:12 amSo when this new torture/terrorist bill gets challenged in the courts and found to be unconstitutional, AGAIN, guess the terrorist will be set free and the Republicans will show that they are the party that is soft on terrorism.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:17 amPaul,
Again, I challenge YOU to present evidence of just one incident of the ticking time-bomb scenario where a terrorist, under “aggressive interrogation†revealed enough information to stop his/her plot.
Do you think if you puke back your fantasy hypo you can justify torture? You can’t. You’re just making a straw argument for sadism. As has been said before, there are far more effective questioning techniques than torture. I would authorize those, as they have a better chance of saving lives than trying to get the information via torture.
And, Paul, where did I talk about appeasement at all costs? DO NOT PUT YOUR WORDS INTO MY WRITINGS. I speak of peace through Enlightenment. The founding fathers of the United States of America were students of The Enlightenment. If I am divorced from reality, so too were they. They lived in the shadow of the Tower of London and knew the horrors of torture. They chose a different path, and put that in place through the 5th and 8th Amendments.
You have bought into a false argument, and use that false argument to usurp the Constitution.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:29 amstealing is wrong: the victims of katrina that broke into shops to get water and food for themselves and those around them. was that wrong?
murder is wrong: a gunman is roaming a school, shooting at random. police shoot and kill him. is wrong to shoot him?
lying is wrong: bill clinton initially lied about the lewinsky affair to protect his family and wife. was that wrong?
aggressive interrogation is wrong: yes, if you live in a vacuum.
progressives are blind to the threat. once you regain power, and you have it your way, what will protect you? naive belief that the world is kind and gentle place, where people will just get along if you just leave them alone? it wasn’t that way before there was a united states and it won’t be that way in spite of all your good intentions.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:33 amBriseadh na Faire, i admire the founding fathers, but your students of enlightment agreed to the continued practice of slavery, in spite of penning the words “all men are created equal”. the point i am trying to make unsuccessfully is that your views are sound but translated to practise are naive and black and white. If you read the communist manifesto, it is brilliant, but in practise it was more corrupt and oppressive than your most fanciful delusion of the bush administration. i am not arguing for torture. i am not confident that progressives offer a viable alternative to our defense.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:43 am#4 zooey
October 1st, 2006 at 10:48 amHow appropriate is that quote!
paul,
I disagree… progressives are not blind to the threat. The Cheney/Bush/Rumsfeld cabal were blind to the threat when they didn’t follow-up on the August 6 memo and all the other memos that indicated that a strike on US soil was imminent. Instead, they ignored the memos and threatened anyone that disagreed with them and then 9/11 happened and Cheney and Rumsfeld took total control of our nation.
Torture is no guarantee for truth telling. Suicide bombers are an example of someone that hates their enemy enough that they don’t fear death and no amount of torture will keep them from telling lies… lies that may further endanger our security and safety.
Never trust a Republican to do the right thing… it’s always about themselves and never about our nation.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:53 amGood Morning, Coffins and all…I had a great dream last night, here goes..In my dream it is Jan 2008..President Clinton and VP Finegold announce all the bush administration has been removed to Gitmo and are undergoing interogation (water boarding) to get information about the corruption and how far it had gone…..All the troops from Iraq and around the world are home and securing our borders… President Clinton and the Dem. controled house and senate have decided to repeal all the bad law’s introduced by the bush administration just as soon as the detainees have been sufficently questioned….All illegal aliens are being rounded up and shipped to their countries of origin, only those passing the assialm law’s will remain…..New applications for visas must pass strict guidelines before being admitted……The tax structure is being overhawled and will be a flat tax starting at $40,000 on all income……N.O. is nearly finished with rebuilding, Darfu was sent diplomats and aid, the fighting has stopped. Israel has been disarmed and is now rebuilding Lebanon…Iran and other waring countries have found a peace like never before through the negotiations of Past president’s Clinton and Carter…Dubi ports were baught back by U.S. companies and all foreign countries have been removed from owning any land or holdings in the U.S. of A…..The few remaining republican’s and Democrats that were found uncorrupted were allowed to remain in their offices all others were escorted off to jail…..Polluters were given 3 month’s to clean up their messes and all asset’s were seized from wrongdoers…..
Sadly in this morning’s new’s there was one accidental death….While trying to flee arrest for wrong doeing to the park’s and wilderness Mr. Pombo was struck down by a giant Sequoia in California……..”If we can dream it, we can do it”.. Unknown…….Blessings all
October 1st, 2006 at 10:54 amI heard a theory — the Republiscum will likely concede some measure of power to the Dems in November; and when the results of the present administration (deficit spending, failed Iraq war, domestic economic downturn) are more clearly evident by 2008, they will have the Democrats to blame. Notwithstanding the years of corruption and ineptitude that this administration has overseen, and that it will take decades to recitify their errors and restore our credibility; if the Dems don’t turn it all around in two years (under the remainder of Bush’s term), they will be painted as ineffective in 2008.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:57 amRumsfeld’s further decline into total dementia will be his “torture”. He know’s that he is losing his mental capabilities. Just look at his inappropriate body language and his senseless comments to reporters.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:58 amSharon, what a lovely dream you had.
October 1st, 2006 at 10:59 amOh that it were to come to pass.
Sharon – what a nice dream… unfortunately, reality sucks.
peace…
October 1st, 2006 at 11:01 am#15 BnF
October 1st, 2006 at 11:04 amThank you.
So glad you post here.
This is how the Republicans fail to protect the American people.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:17 amhttp://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/09/30/AR2006093000282.html
Paul,
Would your view of the world change if it were the government which was responsible for the acts of terrorism?
I’m not talking about a “conspiracy theory” but a hypothetical. What if those in power wanted to consolidate their power by creating an enemy that cannot be killed, “terrorists?” This hypothetical was written of in Orwell’s “1984″ as a method whereby the Party can restrict freedoms and liberties until none are left, all in the name of combating the “enemy” (Goldstein).
Hypothetically speaking, what if our government was involved in 9/11? What if the “terrorists” were on our government’s payroll? Would that make a difference to you in how you view the government’s actions to restrict liberties, to conduct warrantless wiretapping, to hold detainees without a hearing, to torture? Would you support a government that creates fear, then uses fear to exercise authoritarian power over its own citizens?
October 1st, 2006 at 11:18 am#13 – i’m sure it is a wonderful luxury for George Gordon Byron to question and doubt for as long as he wants. the problem comes when you assume leadership, you don’t have that luxury….
Comment by paul
Wrong, paul. When one assumes leadership, one is obligated to question one’s certainty, and to have people around who will speak truth to power. The president is not the king.
Paul, I would ask you take your own advice — Be careful what you wish for.
George W. Bush will receive his fondest wish when he signs the interrogation bill, and he will interpret it any way he damn well pleases, thanks to signing statements. When the next president turns out to be a Democrat, he or she will have the same power GWB has. How does that make you feel?
October 1st, 2006 at 11:20 amHow appropriate is that quote!
Comment by Marie
Apparently it was lost on paul.
I can live with that.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:24 amafter 9-11-2001, i wished for leadership that could protect us from more domestic attacks. 5 years, not one significant attack. you’re right, i did get what i wished for.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:28 amThank you all for you’re comment’s…..The dream lasted forever it seem’s and much more I did not put down here…Will relate more another time…One interesting thing about this vivid dream is I am not now a fan of Hillery because of her backing the war…Maybe it is a sign of change.
After the devastating blows that our country and constitution took last week I was exausted and spent most of the day, yesterday, planting trees and getting my yard ready for winter. The neighbors even helped. Now the entire resort has been mowed and spruced up for the return of winter..
Back on topic……Rumsfeld reminds me of Gollum (Sp) in Lord of the ring’s, especiely his hands……..Surely he is mad as can be, crazy that is. Demanted yes and probably many in this administration will in the end, be commited to the nut house……Blessings…..Work for Peace and justice for all…
.P. S. Can the person in charge of tracking troll’s please repost the list…It doe’s my heart good to see in print the one’s that have drawn the reich winged shot straw’s for the day….Thank’s.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:30 amyou’re right, i did get what i wished for.
Comment by paul
You are blind.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:35 amComment by paul — October 1, 2006 @ 11:28 am
Then do you give high marks to Clinton? After all, the 1st World Trade Center bombing took place when he was in office only about a month, and there were no significant attacks for the next 7 1/2 years he was in office.
And you didn’t answer the hypo in 33.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:36 amGood morning, Sharon.
I’ll see if I can find dixie blood’s format, then I’m going to walk the hills with my dog, and try to work some things out.
Thanks for the great weather, it may be the last for a while.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:39 amGreat post, BnF………Evidently paul think’s this bunch in power has kept him safe…..Not…We will be attacked again when it serves the reich’s purpose to ignore or by design create another attack to keep the populas in check. That is unless they decide to declare marshall law and have all dissenters imprisoned…waterboarded, no representation, declared enemy of this regime and executed….Shit..Some people just don’t get it doesn’t matter who is in the (black house)….bad law’s and dictatorship are not a good thing…..Blessings
October 1st, 2006 at 11:43 amThe Democrats should be screaming this in rebuttal to those who think only Bush is their savior.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:48 amThen do you give high marks to Clinton? After all, the 1st World Trade Center bombing took place when he was in office only about a month, and there were no significant attacks for the next 7 1/2 years he was in office.
October 1st, 2006 at 11:49 amThe Democrats should be screaming this in rebuttal to those who think only Bush is their savior.
Good Day back at ya Zooey, I send Blessings to my young friend in the adjoining state and please hug a white birch (if you can find one) for me. They are one of my favorites…..I am outta here for awhile, back at running the Bear and hugging tree’s here………Blessings to all
October 1st, 2006 at 11:53 amAs a soldier for 10 years, in a combat position, i was sent to a combat survival training school. the school teaches ways to survive in a combat situation and techniques to survive a detention by the enemy. much of the information was classified, but it is safe to say, that what they don’t do is stand up on the first day and say, ‘well, we all now that torture doesn’t work, so if you get captured, just hang in there!’ I guarentee you the government believes torture works.
another point i’d like to make is, if this torture everyone is worried about is limited to sleep deprivation, hypothermia, and waterboarding, it is being made a much bigger deal than it is. find someone you know who has been to one of these schools and ask them.
last point. everyone here is fond of the idea that torture doesn’t work. okay, listen to what you are saying. torture didn’t begin with the bush administration, it is at least thousands of years old. so, if something doesn’t work, does it survive thousands of years?
p.s. BnF. if you could prove to me that the bush administration is responsible for 9-11, you would change my perspective 100%. the reason your hypothetical doesn’t get any play, is, it is insane.
October 1st, 2006 at 12:00 pmSorry Sharon, no luck on finding dixie’s troll format. Maybe someone with comething faster than dial up will have better luck.
BTW, if someone does find that format, Paul doesn’t belong on the troll list — yet. We don’t have a “clueless sheep” list, which is where he really belongs.
Later, ya’ll.
October 1st, 2006 at 12:17 pmPaul, you’ve yet to come up with a real-life “ticking time-bomb” scenario.
Torture has survived for thousands of years because man-unkind is perverse. It has nothing to do with getting information and everything to do with exerting power over a helpless individual.
I posted this earlier:
This site deletes posts with the actual link. I found the information disconcerting, to say the least. And I have not yet finished researching the question.
Oh, and as far as techniques are concerned, have you not read up on the latest microwave weapon? The Plasma weapon? Both will be permissible under Bush’s new law.
October 1st, 2006 at 12:27 pmMarie. #27. i haven’t heard that, however, hillary clinton is a bright woman. i will bet you she has debated whether she would want the job in 2008 for that very reason.
October 1st, 2006 at 12:28 pmBnF. you’re not going to believe this, but, thank you. i will search it out. if i still think you’re crazy, i’ll let you know. also, i can honestly say, i have never been ‘plased’ so, i’ll look at that to. gotta go. good crowd.
October 1st, 2006 at 12:34 pmPaul,
also google “the missing wings”. There’s more, but this site tends to delete such posts.
October 1st, 2006 at 1:56 pmPaul,
Read the article that I posted earlier. It explains how Bush failed to protect the American people from an impending attack. Bush doesn’t to “followup”. He can only ruminate the same words over and over again. He’s a fool and so are his followers.
‘This is how the Republicans fail to protect the American people.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/ wp-dyn/ content/ article/ 2006/ 09/ 30/ AR2006093000282.html
Comment by CoffinsDrapedWithFlags — October 1, 2006 @ 11:17 am’
October 1st, 2006 at 2:14 pm#47 BnF
The scary part of the Plasma weapon is that the Air Force wants to test it on American first.
October 1st, 2006 at 2:23 pmCDWF,
Yes, and if you read further, it and the microwave weapon were designed with use on civilians in mind. And, there were concerns voiced during development that the weapons could be used on detainees.
October 1st, 2006 at 3:08 pmBriseadh na Faire. i got to your first website. looks interesting, but i need to find an hour to watch the video. i looked at the missing wings info, all the technical data made my head swim. i have to be honest, i’m having a hard time with it. not because of the impact info, but more the logistical problems of covering the whole thing up. short story long, i can’t buy it. but i am keeping an open mind about the other site. thanks
October 1st, 2006 at 5:12 pmI agree. It is extremely disconcerting, however, and not impossible, given the time availble to plan, and complete control of the investigation.
Have you read about the Project for a New American Century? Have you read their statement of principles, and noticed that the signers are in high places in this Administration?
Now, Bin Laden knows those folks, they put him in power. Why the heck would he attack when they are in power? Bush’s poll numbers were abyssmal, he was due to be a one-termer, just like Bush I. Why didn’t Osama just wait another 3 years when there would be a “weak Democratic President?” Questions, to be sure. But why attack America when the most imperialist Administration ever is in power; a group of people just looking for another “Pearl Harbor” to launch their consolidation of power and imperialistic aims through military might? If Osama was involved, wouldn’t that make him the greatest traitor to Islam ever? With the PNAC folks in the Administration, a military response was inevitable. (As opposed to Clinton’s police investigation response to the 1st World Trade Center bombing. There, the culprits were caught without going to war.)
I don’t know the answers, but I do have a bad feeling about this.
Keep an open mind. There are other sites, other perspectives, some of which I dismiss, others which raise serious doubts.
Meanwhile, I continue to pray that those who know of the crimes of this Administration continue to come forward with testimony and evidence.
October 1st, 2006 at 6:33 pmTorture has nothing to do with getting information out of an enemy combatant. It’s to satisfy sadistic impulses of frustrated inquisitors. Torture as an ineffective method to gain information is a settled issue among experts, professionals, in the field. It’s along the same lines as an officer looking the other way when his men get drunk, get into fights, or sexually assault some woman who crosses their path. “They’re just blowing off some steam.”
October 2nd, 2006 at 5:23 amBriseadh na Faire. i watched all 53 minutes of the veterans for 9-11 truth. first, i want to say, there are a lot of good reasons being raised here to question interrogation methods being used. your credibility gets compromised, however, if you entertain the ideas put forward in the production. let’s just say, i know a guy that was a military pilot for ten years and now flys 757’s and 767’s for the airlines. the government and media’s explanation of the events are infinitely more plausible than any alternative explanation out there. TP doesn’t prohibit the link to the website out of fear or love of the administration, but out of a desire to protect it’s own credibility. but, sincerely, thank you. i had heard the theory was out there, but i never saw it until now.
October 2nd, 2006 at 9:24 amproblems with national debt
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