Foley engaged in sex with former page.
By on Oct 8th, 2006 at 9:57 am
Foley engaged in sex with former page.
The LAT reports, “A former House page says he had sex with then-Rep. Mark Foley (R-Fla.).” The ex-page said his correspondence with Foley began after he finished the page program for high school juniors, but the sexual encounter occurred when he was 21 years old. “The former page’s exchanges with Foley offer a glimpse of possible predatory behavior by the congressman as he assessed male teenagers assigned as House errand-runners.”
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The best indicator of future behaviour in a sexual predator is his prior behaviour.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:06 amBreaking news: Homosexual had consentual sex with a 21 year old. Burn him!
October 8th, 2006 at 10:11 amPaul, you’re right.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:13 amJust because he stalked him as a juvenile, groomed him for future predation, no real problem there.
Certainly behavior we want and expect from all our elected officials.
“I always knew you were a player but I don’t fool around with pages,” declared one instant message from Maf54, a screen name Foley used in exchanges that have become public involving male former pages.”
Having doubts about how big a deal this is?
October 8th, 2006 at 10:17 amHmm, and Clinton’s headlines would be “Heterosexual male has sex with female”? They impeached him.
The issue is not that Foley had consensual sex with a man 30 years younger than him, the issue is that Foley has been using the page program as means to indentify and exploit relationships with male pages. Many times Foley has sent explicit messages to underage pages. He has even met some of these underage pages in person.
It isn’t a far strech, having all these facts on hand, to think he might have met and had sex with a page that was NOT of legal age. This is what needs to be investigated.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:18 amRUCerious, You’re right. Foley resigned. But the idea of doing the right thing after making a mistake is so foreign to liberals, you can’t even acknowledge it.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:19 amPaul –
October 8th, 2006 at 10:21 amwe’ll see. There was some issue of an overnighter in San Diego that hasn’t come to light yet.
Maybe nothing here, maybe something here. Film at 11.
Why did he resign?
If I was just overly friendly with young people in my company, I would never resign, even if a newspaper writer wrote a story about it.
Curious.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:21 am
Paul, my being an independent progressive has nothing to do with how I hold elected officials accountable for their behavior.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:23 amIf my congressman were found to have engaged in this behavior (He’s a Democrat), I would demand his resignation.
It has to do with being a citizen, not a partisan.
Happy Sunday!
No Paul, that’s not the point here. The point is that he wasn’t just talking dirty to these kids. That he did pursue them a sexual partners.
It was great that he waited until one of them was old enough… but sets up all kinds of concern for whether or not he would have with the 16 year old. That’s the point.
Join reality. It really is greener on this side of the fence.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:24 amAbuse of power, Paul.
Foley purposefully put himself in charge of chairing the committee to protect missing and exploited children and even enacted laws that very well might put him in jail. The context of some of his emails and IMs lends a strong probability that Foley probably (not definitely) had sex with some of these congressional pages. Even if he didn’t, he could still be prosecuted and convicted underneath laws he helped enact.
The number of pages coming forward now and the IMs and emails Foley sent to these congressional pages (barely pubescent at the time) clearly illustrate predatory behavior from a person situated in a position that many of these congressional pages might aspire to achieve one day in life. Foley played that and used it to his advantage.
Even clear thinking conservatives realize that what Foley has done is wrong and that what the House leadership did to cover it up was just as bad. What the GOP seems to do is pick the absolute worst possible candidate to oversee, direct, and chair very important, fundamental positions that impact our country in significant ways. Foley is just one prime example. There have been so many others. This madness must stop. The party that doesn’t believe in government cannot be expected to run it well. Crony capitalism is the result.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:25 amI’m a liberal and I’ve been on a deserted island for 10 years. I just got back. Let’s see, where we’re at. We are demonizing a homosexual man who has be humiliated and forced to resign not, for anything illegal, but for inappropriate messages to young (but legal) pages and consentual sex with a 21 year old. I’m going back to the island.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:29 amIt has to do with being a citizen, not a partisan.
Comment by RUCerious — October 8, 2006 @ 10:23 am
Exactly! Paul clearly is choosing to ignore the fact that most people here wanted Jefferson, a Democrat, fired for his actions.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:31 am#5. CP. I will agree that the Clinton impeachment was a great misstep by the republican party. But, just so we all remember, it wasn’t about the consentual relations between the two, it was about Clinton lying under oath, in relation to the Paula Jones lawsuit. The crime was probably against Paula Jones. Still we should have never spent the time and money on the Lewinsky scandal.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:34 amPlease Paul, do go back to the island. There isn’t electricity there, so you’ll not be able to post any more of your partial context strawmen.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:34 amHe was not “forced” to resign.
That’s called removal. The House can remove members, but it’s rarely been done.
He resigned because what he did was wrong. He knows that. So do we.
Apparently you don’t feel that it was wrong.
Got any teenage sons you’d like to have preyed upon by authority figures in our government?
I’m a liberal
No you aren’t. We know it’s a trcik you cons use to make us think you’re being reasonable. Only this is – you’re not being reasomable. It’s how we know you aren’t liberal.
and I’ve been on a deserted island for 10 years. I just got back. Let’s see, where we’re at.
Go back.
We are demonizing a homosexual man who has be humiliated and forced to resign not, for anything illegal, but for inappropriate messages to young (but legal) pages and consentual sex with a 21 year old.
No Paul, we’re not demonizing a homosexual man. We are pointing out a man who demonized himself by making sexual innuendo to underaged boys. HUGE difference. We really don’t expect you to get it.
I’m going back to the island.
Comment by paul — October 8, 2006 @ 10:29 am
Please do, and take a few other cons with you when you go.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:35 am#7. RUCerious. Now apply that same logic to Hastart. If he is not guilty of anything and has nothing to hide, he wouldn’t resign. Despite the incredible pressure from all sides, he hasn’t resigned. You’re objective. Will you admit, that probably indicates Hastart has done nothing wrong?
October 8th, 2006 at 10:36 amIt’s spelled ‘consensual’.
Just so you can say that you learned something useful today.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:37 am#8. CP. I guess you can make a big deal about that if you want. But have you ever watched C-span? 90% of congressmen know how to vote by looking for the (R) or (D) by their names. It probably doesn’t require the concentration of brain surgery.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:39 amWill you admit, that probably indicates Hastart has done nothing wrong?
Comment by paul — October 8, 2006 @ 10:36 am
Reality shows that those guilty of any wrong doing in sexual context almost never admit wrongdoing.
Hastert is acting guilty. It would be a bigger surprise if he weren’t.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:39 am#9. RUCerious. We’re talking about Foley, right? He resigned.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:40 amPaul,
I thought Republicans expected moral leadership from their representatives. If you really don’t see anything wrong with what Foley did to these pages, if you’re aware of all of the facts, in light of his position as Chariman of the Committee to help missing and exploited children, there is no helping you join realilty. It’s his ENORMOUS hypocrisy in publicly declaring individuals that do just the very same things he did as criminals that is a huge problem in this matter. Also, the laws HE helped enact could end up putting him behind bars. Come on, you can’t even see the irony in that?
This cover-up is just one of so many others that have happened over the last six years. Hopefully, in a few months we’ll start to unravel some of these pieces and get our country back on the right path. We are seriously heading off a cliff right now.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:40 amCan I blame this foul scandal on the neocons? No? Shit.
(well, at least Coulter brings up a precedent from the Democratic side of the one party: http://www.anncoulter.com/ )
October 8th, 2006 at 10:41 am#11. I agree with abuse of power. It still hasn’t been determined to be a crime. It is not my issue, but if you are going to cry abuse of power, you have to understand that the greater the power, the greater the abuse. If the President is the most powerful person on the planet, wouldn’t Clinton also be guilty of you’re abuse of power?
October 8th, 2006 at 10:44 amYes, Paul. In Denny’s mind he hasn’t done anything wrong. He doesn’t equate knowing about this and covering it up with wrongdoing.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:45 amHe should stick to his beliefs and not resign. At least until after November 7th.
That way the American voting public can have their opinions on the matter vetted.
#21 – Correct Paul.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:47 amBy the way, please have enough respect for our elected officials to spell their names correctly.
Hastert, Dennis.
#15. RUCerious. I think there was miscommunication. On this, we agree:
“He resigned because what he did was wrong. He knows that. So do we.”
October 8th, 2006 at 10:49 am#16. “underaged boys” if you have proof that they were legally underage, I will concede the point.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:51 amPaul, I’m currently living in the devastating present. I have no need to talk about the Clenis. However, the abuse of power being perpetrated by Bush (and all of those enabling him) on the U.S. and the rest of the world is immeasurably worse and infinitely more painful for billions of us.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:51 am#18. unbelievable. thanks.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:52 amSee, Paul, it isn’t that hard to find consensus, even when we come from different sides of the political fence.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:52 amGot to run and do some research, happy Sunday!
#22. Foley was a hypocrite. Extremely bad judgement. Creepy, especially because the pages were young. I am making the argument the behavior may or may not be illegal. He is being investigated. That’s appropriate. This conversation, though seems more appropriate if Foley was refusing to resign. He has resigned. Reasonable progs will agree.
P.S. I will disclose that I am not a liberal and have not spent the last 10 years on a deserted island and just learned to spell consensual.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:58 am#26. thanks
October 8th, 2006 at 11:01 am#29. I agree that Bush having to address problems that had been neglected by the previous administration, is infinitely more painful than Bill v. Monica.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:03 am#31. RUCerious. you the bomb, baby.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:05 amPaul, I am a 50 year old congressman and just had internet sex with your 16 year old daughter and I am going to continue to do so…WOW! Thanks for approving,
October 8th, 2006 at 11:07 amPaul,
This conversation is far from over due to the sheer number of Republican Congressmen/women and Republican staffers who have been aware of Foley’s behavior and proclivities and covered it up to keep his seat Republican and to receive his fundraising dollars from his wealthy Palm Beach constituents.
Probably didn’t hurt to have him on Congress with the knowledge of his activities so that they could twist his arm to vote in certain ways that he originally did not want. CAFTA, perhaps? He wouldn’t have been one of the two to change their mind at the last minute after pressure was applied now would he? And after the vote was held open for several hours past the time it was legally supposed to have ended. Yes, indeed he was one of the two.
It’s the cover-up here, that will hopefully finally wake up a majority of Americans to put an end to this one party rule.
It’s just a shame that it has to be about sex for the public to take notice. There have been so many other cover-ups that have been much worse that should have already done the job.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:10 am“underaged boys†if you have proof that they were legally underage, I will concede the point.
Comment by paul — October 8, 2006 @ 10:51 am
Haven’t you read the IMs? He sent sexually explicit propositions to 13-17 year olds. The boys said ‘no’ because they were straight. Foley was ready and willing. The only thing stopping him were the boys…
October 8th, 2006 at 11:11 amWhat are they going to say now? Oh how I love this! It’s sticking a finger at every argument the Repugs push out. Thank you Foley.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:12 amP.S. I will disclose that I am not a liberal and have not spent the last 10 years on a deserted island and just learned to spell consensual.
Comment by paul — October 8, 2006 @ 10:58 am
Well, that’s a start… :)
October 8th, 2006 at 11:13 am#36. Left Coast Mike. Great. Hook me up with her e-mail address!
October 8th, 2006 at 11:15 amI work with 16-18 year olds – mostly boys. They are boys.
After this Foley issue came to light, I took a good look at them the other day. Physically, they are growing into men, but they aren’t there yet. They still look and act young. You wouldn’t confuse any of them with 25 year olds.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:16 amIt’s just a shame that it has to be about sex for the public to take notice. There have been so many other cover-ups that have been much worse that should have already done the job.
Comment by denydenydeny — October 8, 2006 @ 11:10 am
Exactly!
October 8th, 2006 at 11:17 am#38. Unbelievable. That’s the first time I’ve heard “13-17″. If they are younger than 16, that’s a crime. Also if they are younger than 18 in certain states (Florida), that is also a crime.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:17 amIt figures, another sick POS repubnican to prey on minors. I’m for castration and jail time for anyone that preys on minors.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:21 amOh, and Paul that would make it internet incest…you are sick.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:23 amPaul, did you draw the short straw this week? Or are you always the paid Sunday troll?
October 8th, 2006 at 11:23 amI don’t know why we bother to argue with Paul. He’s obviously here to toss out a few Right Wing talking points and defend predatory behavior. He’s disgusting.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:25 amPaul, Foley had sexual explicit correspondence with one 16-year-old page in Florida. As far as I know, this is illegal.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:25 amGotta go. good crowd. In a rare, honest moment, I’d like to say dems have an outstanding opportunity to retake the house, maybe the senate (if you can get how bad the war is going back in the headlines). No one here will agree, but conservatives care more about a stalled strategy in the middle east that will sacrifice more American lives without attaining the promised results, than witchhunting scandal in congress. It didn’t work for republicans and won’t work now.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:25 am“I always knew you were a player but I don’t fool around with pages,†declared one instant message from Maf54, a screen name Foley used in exchanges that have become public involving male former pages.â€
Having doubts about how big a deal this is?
Comment by paul — October 8, 2006 @ 10:17 am
No, Paul, I’m not having any doubts about it. I am also not having much doubt that you are a sick apologist for the GOP leadership, willing to dismiss sexually predatory conduct to rationalize your support for them. Even Hastert called Foley’s conduct “sick and vile”, but apparently you don’t think so.
Pathetic and disgusting. And I mean you, Paul, not Foley.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:30 amPaul, your comment at #34 exposes you for the closed-minded wingnut you obviously are.
Try reading newspapers from around the world someday (maybe even weekly). It’s no coincidence that progressives seem to be better traveled and more exposed to other parts of the world outside of our country. Those that have been exposed to the rest of the world and other world views and still espouse current Republican foreign policy must be consumed by their own greed of money. Bush had not even been out of the country, EVER, before becoming pResident. That is a terrifying thought. The world that “Dubya” has created is truly a nightmare. He ruined a perfectly good letter, he did. The word diplomacy has no meaning any longer. It’s might = right and the rest of the world knows that is the extent of our foreign policy now.
I am ashamed for what our country has become underneath this administration. Everything our country was built on has been used as toilet paper and has lost its meaning, and too many Americans just haven’t cared over the past six years. You are obviously not going to be part of the solution, but I truly hope enough Americans have finally woken up to change the direction our country is careening down.
America can not stand on its own against the rest of the world. Very few people like bullies, and the rest of the world will not bend over for the U.S. indefinitely. We had a monumental opportunity to do so much good for the rest of the world (and for American citizens), but squandered it and created a nightmare (both domestically and abroad).
October 8th, 2006 at 11:30 am…
Wow, this just gets worse! Ignoring the politics: Who many people did he victemize??
Back to Politics: Think Hastert resigns his post this week? This guy had was a predator for Years, Knowing this the Grand Old Perverts took no action for at least 2 years, likely more and they think it’s the Democrats fault?
Stop Drinking the Kool Aid….
October 8th, 2006 at 11:36 ami have had ENOUGH of the Foley scandal. Everyone needs to get a life. I can’t BELIEVE that liberals have fallen hook, line and sinker for the “foley scandal” eclipsing passage of the Torture Bill. It’s outrageous!
October 8th, 2006 at 11:43 amThe reality is that all you’ve said is true; things he’s done may or may not be illegal. We are speculating on Mark Foley’s behavior, and whether he did have sexual contact with a minor by law, or violated a state law (VA or otherwise) within “Enticement of a Child” statutes. Those things are and will be investigated and crimes will be prosecuted.
Concede these points, Paul:
1. Enticing pages of any age is beyond “creepy”- it’s a direct violation of house rules.
2. The House leadership KNEW that Foley was going after pages, pages knew he was going after pages.
3. House leadership kept this behavior secret, and hid the information from the only Democrat on the House Page Committee.
4. The act of hiding a POTENTIAL (likely) House Rules Violator, who targets males 30+ years his junior is more than “creepy”, or “bad judgment”- it represents protecting political power over the better interests of Country and Party and (probably) the safety of children.
If your principal had a teacher that was hitting on “barely legal” children in your school, would you find the principal’s efforts to allow that teacher to continue to do that reprehensible?
Now, I know you’re a troll (really, getting first or second post on TP everyday strikes me as DESPERATELY needed attention…or employment), but excusing the Republican leadership for trying to suppress a possible predator is, well, creepy in itself.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:52 amYou know what banana? THIS is the type of thing that affects people’s votes. This is the type of sleaze that gets peoples’ attention. The fact is the majority of people don’t even know what the torture bill contains but they sure know what those IM’s contained. It is a fact of life and this issue should be front and center for the next 5 weeks so the Dems can take over and actually DO something about Bush’s heinous policies.
October 8th, 2006 at 11:55 amThanks for the Ann Coulter link, RR. It’s always great to read writing so stupid that I can laugh out loud. Coulter always frames arguments that would never have occurred (”Can we spy on [Foley's] instant messages?”) instead of concentrating on the fact that there was no serious investigation of Foley’s behavior.
That being said, and given the fact that I think there was both predatory behavior by Foley and a Republican coverup, the fact that he had sex with a 21 year old man itself is not very relevant to the case. What you will find, most likely, is a complicated legal imbroglio which determines the age of consent at the location and time that the pages were interacted with and whether there is a statute of limitations on any possible criminal acts. Whether Foley’s behavior was improper to society has nothing to do with whether he is guilty in the eyes of the law.
Just because you knew somebody when they were a minor and then had sex with them when they were of adult age is not part of the same behavior. Sometimes sleazy, yes (think of the Kate and Ashley Olsen timeclock on the internet which counted down until they were 18), but the media needs to keep in perspective and concentrate on clear predatory behavior and criminal activity on Foley’s part.
October 8th, 2006 at 12:08 pmPaul – go read some internet news, and not watch FOX. You’ll have learned much of what we’ve shared with you today yourself, before coming here and looking like an uninformed defender of a pedophile.
October 8th, 2006 at 12:11 pmGood thing it was my turn to vomit a little in my mouth, cuz I just did.
October 8th, 2006 at 12:15 pmi have had ENOUGH of the Foley scandal. Everyone needs to get a life. I can’t BELIEVE that liberals have fallen hook, line and sinker for the “foley scandal†eclipsing passage of the Torture Bill. It’s outrageous!
Comment by banana
Yeah, ain’t that a pisser? First the Repugnicans hammer on Bubba for his immoral behavior for years—-YEARS, I say! and now you have the Democrats taking a page out of their playbook and doing a similar thing just before the election.
I mean, how disgusting. Just absolutely disgusting!
October 8th, 2006 at 12:18 pmYou are kidding right? And you think what Dennis Hastert is “doing the right thing”? My way right republican father and mother both think that Hastert should resign. You must be so far to the right that we need to look left to see you.
October 8th, 2006 at 12:25 pmLewinsky had more power in the relationship. She had the power to bring down a president and she almost did [unintentionally (?)].
October 8th, 2006 at 12:27 pmi have had ENOUGH of the Foley scandal. Everyone needs to get a life.
Comment by banana
Me too, banana. Lets me and you move on and let the progressives here enjoy wathing the republican rats jumping ship as she is going down.
Lets do like Dick Cheney and talk about the positive things the republicans can be thankful about. Like the War on Terror. Thats going pretty good, don’t you think? Watching as the Iraqi people keep get their asses kicked?
Speaking of terror, what is your take on Bush’s poll numbers getting flushed down the crapper? What a frigging shame, huh, that the people just don’t seem to get it?
October 8th, 2006 at 12:28 pmQuestion for the trolls;
October 8th, 2006 at 12:32 pmWhich way do Bush’s approval ratings spin as they go down the toilet?
This is an idiotic comment. If ABC News hadn’t received those emails and IMs, a pedophile would still be in Congress with the GOP leadership having full knowledge of it.
October 8th, 2006 at 12:39 pmWhich way do Bush’s approval ratings spin as they go down the toilet?
Comment by RUCerious
Counter-clockwise, to the left. Unless you are in Australia, where toilets spin clockwise. And possibly in the White House. Rumor has it that whenever they flush the toilets there, the crap always spins to the right.
October 8th, 2006 at 12:56 pmBanana,
It’s not the liberals who have “fallen” for the Foley scandal. Many of us are perplexed as to why it took a “Foley scandal” to open some people’s eyes to the corruption occurring within our wholly owned Republican government.
I’m sure there will be many cons who will just continue to close their eyes, plug their ears and vote for the person with the “R” next to their name because that’s which team they’re on.
Quite pathetic really.
October 8th, 2006 at 12:59 pmJoe – ROFLMFAO!
October 8th, 2006 at 1:00 pm(: >}|
The latest attempt at damage control is still being aired today:
Putnam argues GOP leadership acted swiftly on Foley page scandal
From CNN Political Editor Mark Preston
However, see: http://thinkprogress.org/2006/10/06/foley-lie/#comments
So now Republicans are taking credit for doing something they did NOT do. And trying to deflect the blame by: finding any examples they can of Democrats having done similar acts (one Democrat in the past 20+ years); trying to investigate and blame whomever blew the whistle on their cover-up; trying to blame the victim, etc., etc., etc.
IT DOESN’T MATTER WHO ELSE MAY HAVE DONE SOMETHING SIMILAR. At most, that fact puts Republicans and Democrats alike on notice NOT TO COVER UP for predatory behavior!
Republicans ran on a moral high ground, family values, pro-personal responsibility platform. This scandle reduces those platituted to mere talking points, something to say to get elected, but not something by which they were willing to live by when it came to the test.
Foley puts a whole new meaning to “No Child Left Behind.”
October 8th, 2006 at 1:02 pmRepublicans ran on a moral high ground, family values, pro-personal responsibility platform. This scandle reduces those platituted to mere talking points, something to say to get elected, but not something by which they were willing to live by when it came to the test.
Foley puts a whole new meaning to “No Child Left Behind.”
October 8th, 2006 at 1:08 pmJoe – It always brightens my day to read your posts. You are one freaking funny dude. I have said it before and I will say it again. Democrats have a way better sense of humor than republicans. I think it has to do with the seriousness of having to find ways to cover up their corrupt lying asses!!!
October 8th, 2006 at 1:11 pmRahm Emanuel Shuts Down GOP Foley Defense
October 8th, 2006 at 1:15 pmBy: David @ 9:56 AM – PDT
DCCC Chairman Rahm Emanuel was scheduled to debate RCCC Chairman Thomas Reynolds on ABC This Week. Entangled in the Foley Page scandal himself, Reynolds ducks the debate, sending Rep. Putnam in his stead.
…
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/08/rahm-emanuel-shuts-down-gop-foley-defense/
katy – it was a really good debate for the democrat. The republican looked very tired and defeated.
I do not usually watch Fox News but I was serfing through the channels and there was a debate their also. The democrat was from MA – hd never heard of him. They started bringing Studds up and he totally went on the offensive by citing that a republican was involved in that scandal also – Crane. Whenever he would speak about this he would refer to the republican and democrat who were caught up in this. And it was because of the republican and democrat that they set up the committee to oversee the pages. And that it was the republicans on the committee who had knowledge of Foley and did not come forward. Wallace kept trying to help out the republican, but the honorable Rep from MA kick the pants out of the mealy mouthed, weasly repugnut!!
GO TEAM!!!
October 8th, 2006 at 1:27 pmI read the transcript. Still the talking point about how Foley’s resignation was demanded by the Speaker, which an earlier thread pointed out was impossible.
And the talking point about the economy, how great it is. Well, if I were to take out a loan on my house and spend the money on partying, eventually the money would run out, and I would have to begin paying off that loan. Everything would seem great while I was enjoying the party. But when the debt comes due? The Republicans are enjoying the party. Sadly, it will take the Democrats coming into power to reign in the rampant spending and exert the fiscal controls necessary to pay off the debts incurred by the “party of fiscal responsibility.”
And there’s the Republican talking point about the minimum wage vote. Remember that? If I recall correctly, the Republicans tied it into making the repeal of the Estate Tax permanent. The Democrats didn’t go for that, and wanted the minimum wage bill to stand on its own. Hence the Democrats voted against the Republican ploy. But now the Republicans can say the Democrats voted against raising the minimum wage.
October 8th, 2006 at 1:35 pm…But now the Republicans can say the Democrats voted against raising the minimum wage.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — October 8, 2006 @ 1:35 pm
and they ARE… i heard that – and waited for rahm to counter that statement, but it got jumbled and then george changed the subject (if i remember, something like that)…
we all knew that would happen… EVERTHING the righties do has some ulterior motive… they had no desire to raise min.wage – but figured the dems would vote FOR the tax bill with that in there… a good day when they didn’t…
October 8th, 2006 at 1:42 pm.
#52. denydenydeny
“Try reading newspapers from around the world someday (maybe even weekly). It’s no coincidence that progressives seem to be better traveled and more exposed to other parts of the world outside of our country.”
Travel for me since Bush took office: Santiago, Buenos Aires, Sao Paulo, Bogota, Mexico City, San Jose, Aruba, Dublin, Limerick, Manchester, London, Madrid, Barcelona, Paris, Amsterdam, Munich, Stuttgart, Frankfurt, Zurich, Rome, Milan, Mumbai, etc.
Before that Austrailia, Canada, Central America, Turkey, Europe, etc.
I’m sure you have been well exposed also. So, you can agree with me that Europeans (and the rest of the world) are increasingly more upset with the U.S. But it is fantasy to believe that the relations we’re good before Bush took office. Europe is no utopia, as liberals and the media would have you believe. Bush has alienated people around the world with his ham fisted diplomacy. But Europeans bare responsiblity also. Europe has rendered itself virtually powerless with poor economic policies and neglect for its own self defense. Europe has no stomach to address serious security issues and this is much of the division between us and them. Blinded by their distain for U.S. power, they are oblivious to the real threat to their western lifestyle, an Islamic immigration that is unwilling to assimilate and more interested with replacing western values with Islamic law. (Pope, Danish cartoons, German play, etc, etc, etc.) Before this is over, Europeans will recognize the problems they have with us are the least of their problems.
If it makes you feel better, you can believe this is a republican talking point.
October 8th, 2006 at 3:08 pmBut it is fantasy to believe that the relations we’re good before Bush took office. Europe is no utopia, as liberals and the media would have you believe.Paul
So all the crowds of europeans that mobbed Clinton every where he went was –what?
Refresh my memory Paul, which country has the highest standard of living? Hint: it was one of the counties you claim to have visited.
October 8th, 2006 at 4:33 pmbarfly. Really good points. Again, Europe is no utopia. Just because a country has a high standard of living, doesn’t mean it is void of problems. Case in point: The United States has a relatively high standard of living, would you agree that the U.S. is relatively void of problems? Highest standard of living? My guess: Norway. I haven’t been to Norway. If you want the U.S. to abdicate it’s military strength and leave it’s defense in the hands of the good nature of the rest of the world, then divert those funds to social programs; I will admit, you could raise the standard of living here. The point I was making: I believe the U.S. has made many foreign policy mistakes, now and in the past. Europe is no better, just not as influential. The main reason there is anger at the U.S. is; we currently have a disproportionate amount of power in comparasion to the rest of the world. Sometime in the future, U.S. power will wane , then most progs will begin to feel more equitable and less guilty.
October 8th, 2006 at 5:05 pmThis comment is complete bunk because the only country Europeans are powerless against in a conventional war is the U.S.
October 8th, 2006 at 5:08 pmWe just wish the Bush administration would attack countries that actually pose a threat to America.
October 8th, 2006 at 5:15 pmHighest standard of living? My guess: Norway. I haven’t been to Norway. If you want the U.S. to abdicate it’s military strength and leave it’s defense in the hands of the good nature of the rest of the world, then divert those funds to social programs;
The country is Switzerland. What’s their military strength like?
You’re advocating a false choice Paul; we spend more than the rest of the world combined on defense. Is it too much? Not if we intend to be the world’s policeman. But since conservatives have said time and again that “America isn’t the world’s police force, just what is all the extra military stuff for, other than payback to campaign contributors?
The main reason there is anger at the U.S. is; we currently have a disproportionate amount of power in comparasion to the rest of the world. Sometime in the future, U.S. power will wane , then most progs will begin to feel more equitable and less guilty.
Perhaps you could be more specific. Since we spend more on defense than the rest of the world combined (and we will continue to do so for the forseeable future), it seems highly illogical that we would ever be on the “wane” militarily, unless the Chinese start massively selling off their US stocks and bonds, and we have another depression.
October 8th, 2006 at 6:18 pmbarfly. We may have hit an area of agreement with your China comment. also, do you have a link for the Bias debunking? I would sincerely like to check it out.
October 8th, 2006 at 6:33 pmPaul, go to Daily Howler, and in the website’s search function, type Bernie Goldberg Bias. He also has debunked Goldberg’s next book, Obsession.
October 8th, 2006 at 6:37 pmbarfly. thanks.
October 8th, 2006 at 7:42 pmNothing illegal about that!
October 8th, 2006 at 7:54 pm#75 What is to deny? Your boy is the sicko pervert.
October 8th, 2006 at 10:33 pmBummer.
:-)
October 9th, 2006 at 1:27 amPaul,
I’m so glad that you have traveled around to see so much of the world, and that you also agree that the world has taken a much harder stance against the U.S. since Bush has taken office.
Even if a few governments support us these days, the overwhelming majority of global citizens are furious with U.S. foreign policy (now, more than ever before).
I never claimed that the rest of the world all saw us as the “good guys” before Bush took office. However, world opinion has taken a HUGE nosedive towards the U.S. because of the Bush doctrine, our new foreign policies which demand obediance to the U.S. given in many obnoxious manners, and our loss of even attempting to use diplomacy any longer.
Perhaps, you fall into the category of people where I say that those that have had the luxury to be exposed to the rest of the world and STILL support this administration (and enable it by voting Republican) are consumed with their money and wealth. (Not that I’d expect many to ever admit to that).
You even admit that the rest of the world have become more upset with the U.S. due to Bush’s global policy failures. How can anyone that sees that continue to support this administration? I’m not quite sure how we’re going to regain the moral standing we once held in the world community, but we can begin by putting a check on the Bush Administration. They have had ZERO oversight for far too long. I shudder to think what might be revealed, but it must.
These days, to vote (R) you have to close your eyes, plug your ears, hum loudly OR when the abundance of facts that have been spilling out that completely shatter any competence within this administration, one can scream “liberal media bias” (biggest joke ever) OR one could simply sell out for more money OR one could be a one issue voter (anti-choice, stop the bad, gay people, etc.) OR simply not pay attention to any of the important things that are happening all around us and brand oneself an (R) for life. None of the above are admirable, imo.
I am NOT a democrat, but an independent. I WILL be voting and encouraging people to vote straight line Democrat until we can get this Administration under some type of control.
Thank God, some (R)s realize we must put a check on this Administration. We must vote straight line (D) down the ballot this year. Regardless. We need (D) chairpersons in Congress to put a stop to the continuing consolidation of power under the “unitary executive theory”. No President should ever be knighted king. Ever.
October 9th, 2006 at 2:11 pm