VIDEO: Bush Agrees Current Iraq Violence May Be ‘Jihadist Equivalent Of The Tet Offensive’
VIDEO: Bush Agrees Current Iraq Violence May Be ‘Jihadist Equivalent Of The Tet Offensive’
In an interview today with ABC’s George Stephanopoulos, President Bush said he agreed with a recent op-ed arguing that the current spike of violence in Iraq could be the “jihadist equivalent” of the 1968 Tet Offensive in Vietnam, which was “widely credited with eroding support for President Johnson” and turning the American public against that war.
Watch it:
President Bush is right to finally admit that violence in Iraq has reached a tipping point, and that the U.S. is not winning the war as he has claimed. But the current violence is not a propaganda campaign by Iraqis to impact the U.S. elections, as he suggests. It is a civil war, one that he has repeatedly failed to acknowledge and has no plan to address.
Full transcript:
STEPHANOPOULOS: Tom Friedman wrote in the New York Times this morning that what we might be seeing now is the Iraqi equivalent of the Tet Offensive in Vietnam in 1968. Tony Snow this morning said, “He may be right.” Do you agree?
BUSH: He could be right. There’s certainly a stepped up level of violence, and we’re heading into an election.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But what’s your gut tell you?
BUSH: George, my gut tells me that they have all along been trying to inflict enough damage that we’d leave. And the leaders of al Qaeda have made that very clear. Look, here’s how I view it. First of all, al Qaeda is still very active in Iraq. They are dangerous. They are lethal. They are trying to not only kill American troops, but they’re trying to foment sectarian violence. They believe that if they can create enough chaos, the American people will grow sick and tired of the Iraqi effort and will cause government to withdraw
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The worst president in the history of America…..Caption should read…Get me another drink Laura
October 18th, 2006 at 7:32 pmCan you say lying, incompetent criminal?
October 18th, 2006 at 7:32 pmB…b…but Cheney said everything was going swell?
These guys don’t know if their coming or going..
I’ll answer that, they’re going straight to hell!
October 18th, 2006 at 7:32 pmbut it’s only because of the election. so blame it on the election. and can’t forget the blame of ramadan. what a helluva guy.
October 18th, 2006 at 7:33 pmIt took them three friggin’ years to admit that the Iraqi insurgents were friggin’ insurgents.
How long will it take them to admit there is a friggin’ civil war going on.
October 18th, 2006 at 7:37 pm#5
watch out now. it’s called sectarian violence.
October 18th, 2006 at 7:40 pmBush has revised his comments. He thought Stephanopolous asked him if “tits were offensive” and he agreed to show his Christian modesty.
As far as the Jeehadeez…….they wanna chop yer heads off!
-GSD
October 18th, 2006 at 7:40 pmIt’s really difficult to look at the picture of him from this video. I have never seen a more dishonest face…
October 18th, 2006 at 7:48 pmI think many folks out there are missing the historical analogy. The Tet Offensive was a massive, undeniable defeat for the enemy. They achieved none of their tactical, military objectives. They suffered FAR more casualties than the U.S. and our South Vietnamese allies. The reason why Tet was considered a communist victory (despite their overwhelming losses) is because the media portrayed it as a victory for the NVA and Viet Cong, and, as a result, the U.S. public began to think the war was unwinnable. Tet was purely a propaganda and psychological victory for the communists. As a military initiative, it was a disaster for the communists. But perception became reality. Same here. The terrorists cannot win militarily in Iraq. They know that. They’re only chance for victory is to convince the media and, consequently, the American public that the U.S. cannot win. Al Qaeda/Iraqi “insurgents” have indeed learned the lessons of Tet and Vietnam well. Have we?
S
October 18th, 2006 at 7:48 pmBig deal. So GWB is “admitting” that al Qaeda is orchestrating all the violence in Iraq in order to drive out the saviors of the Iraqi people. This is nothing new from George.
October 18th, 2006 at 7:48 pmAs I was reading #9 I was thinking, “Who is this person who’s pimping for Bush and slamming the media for reporting on the Vietnam war?”
October 18th, 2006 at 7:55 pmhe agreed because his earpiece told him so
October 18th, 2006 at 7:59 pmNotice how Bush refers to the terrorists/insurgents in Iraq as “al Qaeda.” (He’s still trying to sell us on the Republican lie that the invasion of Iraq had anything to do with 9/11.) If anyone saw the rest of the interview, did Stephanopoulos call Bush on that? Probably not.
Bushian loyalty is no virtue–it’s the loyalty of thieves
October 18th, 2006 at 8:02 pm#9 — No matter what it is, other than a f***ing disaster in every way, the United States should not be in Iraq. End of story. The war in Iraq is unwinable. As a matter of fact, it should not be won. It should just be over. Will the insanity of you Bush lovers ever end? Will you ever care about the lives being lost, US and Iraqi? Or will you just kiss Bush’s ass over and over again until you can’t pucker your lips anymore? When is it you people stop and think about the grave consequences of this administration’s actions? Please think before it’s too late for all of us. It would be a crying shame for every being on this planet to have to suffer because of the flagrant ignorance of people like you.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:03 pmBring our boys home or I’ll…I’ll…I’ll stage another interview to promote my book!!!!
October 18th, 2006 at 8:13 pmGo Cindy!
October 18th, 2006 at 8:15 pmIt would be a crying shame for every being on this planet to have to suffer because of the flagrant ignorance of people like you.
Comment by NoMoreRepublicanTrash
Exley doesnt care about people. He cares about the Mets.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:15 pmSince Bush was no where near Vietnam in 1968, I wonder if he’s aware of how many American soldiers died during the TET Offensive. or is he only aware of its “political” ramifications? At what point does American deaths have “moral” ramifications? Who wants to be the last American soldier to die in Iraq?
October 18th, 2006 at 8:16 pmBring our boys home or I’ll…I’ll…I’ll stage another interview to promote my book!!!!
Comment by Cindy_Sheehan
Thats really brave. To make fun of a grieving mother. I bet you cant get it up.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:16 pmI would bet her son is equally apalled at his mother’s behavior toward the cause he lost his life defending!.. He wasn’t drafted…He was a volunteer!…
And I get it up just fine thank you…Want pics???
October 18th, 2006 at 8:19 pm“What is Ted’s Offense? and why is he asking me about Vietnam? Dang it I hate these foreiner questions”
“Oh wait my handlers are tellimg me to nod”
October 18th, 2006 at 8:20 pm#15 — Republicans don’t care about grieving mothers whose sons or daughters died in Bush’s war of convenience. Republicans don’t even care about the troops that are living, or their families fears and concerns. Republicans simply don’t care about America or Americans, on insomuch as looking to the country and its people as something to fleece. So, based on your comment, you must be a dirty piece of Republican filth. I long for the day that you people are silenced permanently.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:20 pmWhat a fitting background. Queen George the Dumb within sight of the checkered flag and the finish line. In just a few days he will be a lame d(*)uck and his checkered past will assure his finish. l\Long live NASCAR! Maybe he sees it as a chess board but if it is somebody tipped the board and QGtD is off the board and on his ass. Don’t forget to sign on to the new revolution here.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:21 pmIn Vietnam, George W Bush had an exit strategy…..
October 18th, 2006 at 8:23 pm# 23
My bad! Try here.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:24 pmSo, based on your comment, you must be a dirty piece of Republican filth. I long for the day that you people are silenced permanently.
Any opposition is responded to with wishes of death by you people…You are no different then the fanatical idiots that saw peoples heads off for disagreeing with them!..Amazing!
October 18th, 2006 at 8:26 pm#20 — no, you lowlife garbage, Cindy Sheehan’s son would not be appalled at his mother’s bravery in the face of overwhelming odds. Cindy Sheehan will be remembered in history as someone who without thought as to how it would affect her life, challenged the true enemies of the United States and its people — George W. Bush & Co.; you and your ilk, however, will be remembered in history as people who sold out their own country and its people in the name of the Republican party. How proud you must be.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:26 pmCindy Sheehan’s son was fighting for freedom of expression so that the USA would never be taken over by a dictator who would call a dissenter a traitor.
Republicans don’t care how many soldiers die to achieve their unacheivable objective. I’m sure their happy that the US population just hit 300 million because that means there are a lot more bodies for their phony war on terror.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:27 pmGood try WB, but not only al Qaeda in Iraq. There are Sunni insurgent, Sunni militia, Shiite militia, Kurdish miltia, Iraqis police and of course our boys and warprofit companies. Stop lie.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:28 pmYou are no different then the fanatical idiots that saw peoples heads off for disagreeing with them!..Amazing!
Comment by Cindy_Sheehan
Whatever.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:30 pmAny opposition is responded to with wishes of death by you people…You are no different then the fanatical idiots that saw peoples heads off for disagreeing with them!..Amazing!
Yup, you got it, you piece of s**t. You don’t get courtesy because you don’t deserve courtesy. You’d know all about fanatical idiots because you and your Bush-loving cohorts are fanatical idiots. Don’t come here looking for your perverted worldview to be accepted with grace and love. You and your ilk have been shown entirely too much tolerance since 2000. Now is the time to fight you tooth and nail in order to regain control of OUR COUNTRY and wrench it out of the hands of arrogant fools like you and Bush. You haven’t seen fighting yet. We are only getting started. After November you and the rest of the Republican trash can bend over and grab your ankles. Enjoy.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:30 pmTerrorist this, terrorists that……
Bush boy,wake up. These are insurgents. There is a civil war going on.
You screwed up. We should have never invaded Iraq in the first place. You forgot the actual war on terror when you invaded Iraq for a pack of lies and for oil ( and the PNAC plan )
Quit drinking your own Koolaide, Chimpy.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:31 pmHey #20 -
Yeah, volunteered to be a chaplain’s assistant. I’m sure he’d be disappointed by his mother’s unwavering dedication to the teachings of Christ. Right.
/people that bash Cindy Sheehan are ignorant scum
October 18th, 2006 at 8:31 pmHmm, I don’t think the current violence in Iraq is a spike. I think it will get much worse.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:32 pmAl Qaeda/Iraqi “insurgents†have indeed learned the lessons of Tet and Vietnam well. Have we?
Mate If thats the ONLY thing the US has learnt from vietnam then the US Iraq adventure is truely beyond incompetence.
“From start to finnish, American leaders remained catastrophically ignorant of Vietnmese history, culture, values, motives, and abilities. Misperceiving both it enemy and its ally and imprisoned in the myopic conviction that sheer military force could somehow overcome adverse political circumstances, Washington stumbled from one failure to the next in the continuing delusion that success was always just ahead” - Without Honor - Arnold R. Isaacs
Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively. And if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past.-Richard M. Nixon
October 18th, 2006 at 8:34 pmAfter November you and the rest of the Republican trash can bend over and grab your ankles. Enjoy.
Keep threatening people…They seem to be getting the message!!!…PFFT!
October 18th, 2006 at 8:36 pm#5
Al Qaeda/Iraqi “insurgents†have indeed learned the lessons of Tet and Vietnam well. Have we?
Is that all the US has learnt from Vietnam ?
“From start to finnish, American leaders remained catastrophically ignorant of Vietnmese history, culture, values, motives, and abilities. Misperceiving both it enemy and its ally and imprisoned in the myopic conviction that sheer military force could somehow overcome adverse political circumstances, Washington stumbled from one failure to the next in the continuing delusion that success was always just ahead” - Without Honor - Arnold R. Isaacs
Never has so much military and economic and diplomatic power been used so ineffectively. And if after all of this time, and all of this sacrifice, and all of this support, there is no end in sight, then I say the time has come for the American people to turn to leadership not tied to the mistakes and policies of the past.-Richard M. Nixon
October 18th, 2006 at 8:36 pmAhhhh, the old “they are volunteers” arguement. How is that volunteering going now? Nobody is volunteering to fight this stupid war anymore. The people that were already in didn’t volunteer to kill innocent people either.
Have you served? What unit? Base? MOS?
Do you know what it is like to kill somebody in combat? Nobody should have to do it.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:41 pmThey seem to be getting the message!!!…PFFT!
Comment by Cindy_Sheehan
At least the 60 something %.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:41 pmGWB, Your ‘gut’ is not a credible source of ‘intelligence’. It’s more likely telling you that it needs some Pepto Bismal. Why won’t you just admit that you don’t have a clue about Iraq, and you never did.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:45 pmThis is where my age shows, I was months from coming out when this happened.
I can’t believe the same crap is still happening.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:46 pmHave you served? What unit? Base? MOS?
Yes…and I’m not whining about it…It was the proudest thing I have ever done…And if you did, then you should be ashamed at your comments…You join the military…Not the friggin boy scouts!!!!!!..
So don’t come off like war wasn’t a possibility…It is a hazard of joining and some people seem to act like they never expected it to EVER happen or anyone to die…What a crock of sh*t!
October 18th, 2006 at 8:47 pmThe people that cut off people’s heads are:
Conservative
Religious
Zealots
Osama bin Laden
CRZ
Saudi Arabia
CRZ
George W Bush
CRZ
We are not Conservatives, most aren’t religious and you gotta be religious to be a zealot.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:47 pmComment by Exley
You have a good point, I don’t know shit about the Tet Offensive, and just read about it, on that Wiki. Apparently it was a great defeat for the enemy and the media portrayed it otherwise, and it still ended up becoming the turning point.
The context of the thread is, that a tipping point may have been reached with the Iraq war.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:51 pmAhhhhh, so unlike most of the righties that come here, you served. Good for you.
Did you serve during wartime? From your comments, I would say no.
I served during Desert Storm and you are incorrect. You need to reup just before a war starts and watch people jump out of windows, try and hang themselves with the buffer cord or punch a commanding officer to keep from going to jail. All of this happened in my platoon alone. 4/5 Field Artillery 1st Inf. Div Fort Riley KS.
Not everybody is in the military to fight in a war and most are not prepared for it. Most people join the military for the college money and because they have no other option.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:53 pmSo don’t come off like war wasn’t a possibility…Comment by Cindy_Sheehan
Mmmm…General Dynamics and Lockheed Martin CEO´s have done a good job brainwashing your mind with some little GI Joe´s cartoons. I dont see the most prosperous countries in the world worrying about war. (Norway, Switzerland, Luxemburgo, etc…) but hey, whatever satisfy your “beheading” impulses, murderer.
What a crock of sh*t!
October 18th, 2006 at 8:57 pmExactly. You describe your posts quite well.
Oh yeah and Cindy, start using a screen name that is your own and people might give you more credit. But, I am sure you didn’t come here to debate or discuss. You started with an attack, so an attack back is what you got. Action/reaction it’s physics.
October 18th, 2006 at 8:58 pmDid you serve during wartime? From your comments, I would say no.
BUZZZZZ…Wrong again!!!!!!
I actually have a 2 combat action ribbons and serverd in the infantry…soo your stories of hanging themselves with buffer cords stikes me as funny!..I never saw that in the Marines….It’s easy to get out without killing yourself or punching someone….I see that as a weak argument!
October 18th, 2006 at 8:59 pmJuan C…is that a hispanic name???????
I hope your not here illegally…If so your days of sucking my tax money are numbered!
October 18th, 2006 at 9:01 pmAction/reaction it’s physics.
Comment by SpudgeBoy
Hey, Spudge. Try to keep it simple for this guy. Do not confuse him with science stuff.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:01 pmKeith Olbermann just kicked George W. Bush’s ass with his Special Comment on the death of habeas corpus.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:04 pmTo say that we have actually something to compare the current violence and counter Islam infighting to is the point we are missing. We have stuck our finger in the dike and the water is coming over the top. Historical comparisons are purely academic and for the feebly minded constituents who have some how taken sides in this debacle like it’s a football game with the same level of consequences. We are all responsible for allowing this man to become President and to accommodate his callous belligerent simplistic view of the world to be hijacked by a few elitist arrogant impotent dreamers who have lost so many lives and dollars on behalf of twisted imperialistic goals before. The argument is over . Failure is a gift to those who do not prepare for all of the outcomes of carnage. Thank a god if you have one will not see this man in control of our destiny any further.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:04 pmI hope your not here illegally…If so your days of sucking my tax money are numbered!
Comment by Cindy_Sheehan
Genius! Why would I want to be in the US? You think illegals like McDonalds, Country music, KFC and Baskin Robbins? Ha! They sure dont like the artificial culture US have built after the genocide of indians. They are in your country working so they dont starve in their native countries. BTW, those native countries economies are ruled by the IMF…which is, surprise!, an US toy. So, in summary, that illegal you talk about is very much a consequence of US actions.
Now, I bet you cant spell the country Im from. I can speak your language, you know shit about mine. Whose the alien, buddy?
October 18th, 2006 at 9:07 pmI meant whos the alien?
October 18th, 2006 at 9:08 pmThat’s it!..Blame me and all republicans for what happened to the native americans 100 years ago…..Way to spin things BUDDY!!!
October 18th, 2006 at 9:09 pm>In Vietnam, George W Bush had an exit strategy…..
great line - you could sell that one to TDS or Leno
But seriously, I doubt that George Bush has any idea what the Tet Offensive was. He was too drunk and coked out during those years for even what few grey cells he may have had to have retained anything.
This guy is the most painful national humiliation we’ve ever endured and we’re not even 75% through it.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:11 pm“Cindy Sheehan” kicks its own ass. That’s nice…
October 18th, 2006 at 9:18 pmBlame me and all republicans for what happened to the native americans 100 years ago…..Way to spin things BUDDY!!!
Comment by Cindy_Sheehan
100 years ago??? I would add another 100 years. And who the hell is talking about Dems or Reps? I said US. Do you think I give a f*ck about Dems or Reps? Do you see life that way? Good and Evil, Black and White, Dem or Rep? What the hell is wrong with you, that you have to mock a mother, attack people who dont want war and then make a racist comment about illegals? Dont you have some self-respect or at least decency to post with another name? You are shameful and pathetic.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:20 pmOh yeah, about the Tet Offensive: yes, it was a military failure for the NVA. The problem was–and the reason why it was perceived as an American disaster was that the American public had been treated to daily reports of enormous losses by the enemy–how there was nearly no NV army left–and how the war was very nearly over. That the NVA could have made such an offensive at all so flew in the face of previous propaganda that significant portions of the public that had supported the war came to the conclusion that the Government was either 1) wildly mistaken in their intel, or 2) lying.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:27 pmHistory is full of battles lost that neverthelewss changed the psychology of a war. Tet was one of them.
Sorry. I don’t watch Bush clips anymore. Too depressing.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:28 pmThis statement fits into the administration’s optimistic thinking on Iraq. The Tet Offensive was largely a military defeat for the North Vietnamese. Therefore, today’s North Vietnamese or th e jihadist or whatever they’re labelling those who want us out, will lose this battle militarily.
But, because of the large number of American casulaties, Tet began the shift in mainstream America’s mind that the war was not worth it. It was a public relations victory as only Americans can appreciate and provide. Bush’s ’stay the course’ mantra lives on — if we just continue being there we’ll deny those who defy us a victory and they will crumble. It’s the same BS Kissinger was probably feeding Nixon at the time.
Everything old is new again.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:29 pmWell said, Juan.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:29 pmHe is beyond offensive. Is there no level to whichhe won’t stoop???
Someone needs to ask him his Kim Jong Il’s recent nuclear activity is an attempt to manipulate our elections as well.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:30 pmWell said, Juan.
Comment by Zooey
I had a blackout. What happened? :)
October 18th, 2006 at 9:33 pm#9. i think you make a fatal mistake in your thinking. you are trying to take one event and give it one outcome. very few actions have a single consequense. Sure, the NVA and the VC lost more Soldiers. But they were “successful” in many other ways. They were able to make fairly concentrated attacks across all of South Vietnam. The arms caches went mostly undetected and when detected, no one really new what to think of them. it took the battle field to Saigon which at that time was mostly devoid of fighting. it wasnt just the media that was latching on to the story. it was a strategic victory. the civil war that is ongoing in iraq is much the same. sure we kill alot of them. but what is the outcome? how do you measure victory? the NIE already stated that we are creating more terrorists. in vietnam, we were up against the vietnamese and some small elements from surrounding areas. this current debacle has created a global recruiting poster.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:34 pmMy gut tells me that as long as it is someone else paying the price we are staying the course
October 18th, 2006 at 9:34 pmI had a blackout. What happened? :)
Comment by Juan+C
Your comment in #58.
Which type of blackout?
October 18th, 2006 at 9:55 pmAre you drinking or did your power fail? :)
It shows a lot about Bush’s priorities that he thinks everything revolves around him and his party. To assume that people fighting and dying is merely an effort to derail his party’s election chances is, to me, a shameful degree of hubris.
October 18th, 2006 at 9:58 pmMy gut tells me to buy 98,000 acres in Paraguay under my daughter’s name while we all sacrifice and fight terra.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:00 pm#14, I am sorry my history lesson upset you. All I can do is teach you history. What you do with my teachings are up to you.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:05 pm#65, Bubba wrote:
This current debacle has created a global recruiting poster.
Exactly. Well said.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:07 pmI strongly suggest you guys actually read a history book and learn the facts behind the Tet offensive. It was a major loss for the Viet Cong and the only reason it had any affect on the war was that American media championed it as a victory for them.
Bush knows his history - you and the main stream media do not - but this time the truth is available to everyone.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:14 pmNSC is, of course, correct. Well said.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:17 pmHabeas Corpus?…. anyone?….
http://www.getsomejosh.com
October 18th, 2006 at 10:23 pm#72. your thinking is extremely narrow. tunnel vision kills. you blame one thing for the tide of vietnam just like you blame one thing on this quagmire. “liberal media this and liberal media that.” since you are such a fan of history, how many “pre emptive” wars in modern history has the united states fought and achieved decided victory?
October 18th, 2006 at 10:24 pmHistory lessons from Exley! BWAHAHAHAHAHA!! ROTFL!!!
October 18th, 2006 at 10:25 pmNSC = Exley…no wonder you agree with him.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:26 pmBush knows his history
Comment by NSC
In rehab…perhaps.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:32 pmWhere was George during the Tet Offensive? Not in Vietnam that’s for sure.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:36 pmWhat you do with my teachings are up to you.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:36 pmComment by Exley — October 18, 2006 @ 10:05 pm
Yes Master, Wax On,,,,, Wax Off,,,
An attorney I used to work for, a retired Marine Colonel, was trapped in Hue City for several days during the Tet Offensive. He said they lost that battle, and it was the beginning of the end for us in Viet Nam.
He was there. He knows.
And in case you’re wondering, he’s no liberal. He’s a registered Republican, always has been.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:37 pmExley is teaching Vietnam history, fellas. Tomorrow he will be giving lessons on the good old Contras, those palladins of democracy that killed nuns, children and women in Nicaragua following orders from that great gift of humanity called Negroponte. After tomorrow he is planning to lecture on the 9/11 Commission report where his whole faith in God and Bush is deposited, without asking himself why the FBI havent blamed OBL for 9/11 atrocity or why the FBI is still keeping the tapes from the area around the Pentagon where the “forth plane” crashed. I wonder if Exley will be giving lessons on the 9/11 event that killed 30,000 people. It happened in 1973. I leave it to him to do some reasearch.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:39 pmYes Master, Wax On,,,,, Wax Off,,,
Comment by ren
Ha ha! But even Miyagi San said: We trained Karate for one reason: Not to fight.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:40 pm#65, Bubba,
You make some valid points. In explaining the correct history of the Tet Offensive, I was making no argument one way or other about how best to proceed in Iraq. I was simply correcting the historical record. Many people (including apparently people at ThinkProgress) do not know what happened at Tet. I needed to teach some history.
You write: “the NIE already stated that we are creating more terrorists.” You are only half right. While the NIE said the liberation of Iraq has become a “cause celebre” for Islamic jihadists, the NIE aslo said that an American victory/Al Qaeda defeat in Iraq would be a major blow to the radical Islamic jihadist movement. You neglected to mention that. That is not your fault. The mainstream (read, liberal) media buried that aspect of the NIE.
You ask: “how do you measure victory?” That is the key question. At this point, I don’t know the answer. Clearly, half the victory has already been achieved — the deposing of Saddam. Where we go from here, however, is uncertain. I don’t believe U.S. troops should be kept in the middle of a civil war. The Iraqi people were handed a golden opportunity and gift by the U.S. and Coalition when we deposed Saddam. We gave the Iraqis every opportunity to create a democratic and civilized society following our overthrow of Saddam’s tyrannical rule. Rather than making the most of this opportunity, the Iraqis have instead seemingly chosen to indulge in the violent settling ancient ethnic, religious, and tribal grievances. If that is what they choose to do, the U.S. should withdraw our troops. You can lead the proverbial horse to water, but you cannot make it drink. We have done all we can for the Iraqis. The rest is up to them.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:43 pmLet us not forget the history lesson that George Walker Bush, the liar, the sociopath, the psycho, the coward….is the greatest president of all time.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:44 pmWe have done all we can for the Iraqis. .
Comment by Exley
600,000 dead iraqis would say: No more effort, please.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:48 pmThe rest is up to them
Like managing their own oil, I guess. Yeah…
Exley’s lesson on our generosity and altruism in Iraq = The rapist throwing $20 on the back of his victim, and saying, “I don’t know why you’re upset, honey, I gave you every opportunity to enjoy it.” Buy yourself somethin’ pretty…
October 18th, 2006 at 10:49 pmThis is friggin’ nuts. I just want you neocons to understand that just because I’m a cross dresser, does not make my viewpoint friggin’ invalid.
My personal issues ar not part of my friggin’ politics.
Again, move on to another subject and stop sending me friggin’ e-mails about it.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:50 pm#88 - That’s not SpudgeBoy.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:54 pm82 - Last night Ex was pretending to teach Constitutional Law…except that he called it Civil Procedure.
And, CS, I’ve met Cindy Sheehan. She is one of the nicest, warmest, kindest persons I have ever had the pleasure of knowing. She has dedicated her life to doing whatever she can to prevent another mother from feeling the grief she felt and still feels over her son’s senseless and needless death in an immoral and illegal war.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:55 pmhttp://www.vwam.com/vets/tet/tet.html
Winning over the hearts and minds of the people was fundamental to the Vietnam War. Westmoreland’s “Search and Destroy” operation actually producted more VCs. Even enough sympathizers to allow them secrectly concentrated near SVN’s cities.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:56 pmHi Zooey.
yeah, there was a spudgeboy impersonator here earlier. I wonder why Judd can’t block it’s ISP address.
October 18th, 2006 at 10:57 pmHey #88: Last time I checked, Cowards and Terrorists hide among the population too…
October 18th, 2006 at 10:59 pmHello Briseadh na Faire,
I assume you sent Judd an email regarding this hijacker, just as you did about the one who hijacked ren and my names.
I can’t help but feel like it’s more than one of the these idiots doing it.
They’re desperate.
October 18th, 2006 at 11:01 pm“If this were a dictatorship, it’d be a heck of a lot easier, just so long as I’m the dictator.” - George Bush, December 18, 2000
He has finally gotten his wish. Habeas Corpus, R.I.P.
October 18th, 2006 at 11:02 pm84, it did state that if we were successful it may deter more fighters. however the point remains. our presence brings more fighters. that is the problem with occupying a country. no matter how many you kill, they always have more. i havent seen anything even remotely tangible in terms of “winning.” our strategy has yet to change. we keep employing the same overall structure. i dont care what catch phrase mehlman wants to use. stay the course or adapt and win, the outcome is the same. the same philosophy is still in action in terms of our strategy. so yes the NIE says if the jihadists perceive they are losing, it may slow. but can you point to anything since “mission accomplished” that the jihadists may see as “losing”
October 18th, 2006 at 11:02 pm#86:
The Lancet figure of 600,000+ is an October ploy to help cost Dubya Republican majorities in the House and Senate; they tried the same thing in 2004, trying to prevent his re-election, with equally bogus figures. Even Iraqbodycount, who oppose the Iraq war, cannot stand behind them….
October 18th, 2006 at 11:08 pmBut I have a feeling that the people who hate Dubya do not care whether the study is or is not propagandistic BS; they just hope that gullible and credulous voters will swallow it.
#94 This is getting like the wizard of oz… Does Judd even exist, If he does could he maybe POST SOMETHING about this problem and what he is doing about it?
October 18th, 2006 at 11:09 pm“Major combat operations by U.S. military forces in Iraq have ended.” - George Bush - May 1, 2003
2,792 R.I.P.
October 18th, 2006 at 11:09 pm#98….600,000 is accurate. You and other people who wish to stick their head in the sand do not have to believe it.
October 18th, 2006 at 11:13 pmComment by Mark+Glesne — October 16, 2006 @ 2:51 pm
“Ask any one of the sailors on the USS Lincoln, the Mission Accomplished sign was for their ship - for their crew - for completing their mission. It wasn’t a broad statement about the war in Iraq. Bush has always said that this war would be long and tough.Get over it.â€
BUSH ABOARD THE USS ABRAHAM LINCOLN May 1, 2003
“Major combat operations in Iraq have ended, In the battle of Iraq, the United States and our allies have prevailed.â€
Ari Fleischer, former White House press secretary
October 18th, 2006 at 11:16 pm“We put it up. We made the sign. But I think it accurately summed up where we were at the time, ‘Mission Accomplished’ … the mission was to topple Saddam Hussein.â€
Salamantis,
How many dead Iraqis would be acceptable?
October 18th, 2006 at 11:16 pmAlways changing the mission.
The mission is to find WMDs.
The mission is to topple Saddam Hussein.
The mission is to bring freedom and democracy to Iraq.
The mission is to secure Baghdad.
October 18th, 2006 at 11:21 pmBush knows nothing about Vietnam, nor the Tet Offensive, because he was drunk and snorting cocaine in Texas during that time! Dubya Dunce Decider Despot would be wise to shut-up!
October 18th, 2006 at 11:22 pm#84
I ‘m sick and vomit because of these words, but let me say something. Before the war, million iraqis had a peaceful familly, normal life, jobs and friends. Saddam is evil but those ppl is innocent. Now what they have no familly, violent life, no jobs? You think you give them golden opportunity, ask them - they will say “Fking your oppertunity”. Freedom is not the thing you force them accept it. Rather than thinking without best post-war plan, the war broke the banlance of power and catalysed the civil war, you blame Iraqis.
October 18th, 2006 at 11:23 pmNo more Holy Freedom War. Let ppl free to choose their way to Freedom. It will be their true Freedom.
The Lancet figure of 600,000+ is an October ploy to help cost Dubya Republican majorities in the House and Senate;Comment by Salamantis — October 18, 2006 @ 11:08 pm
October 18th, 2006 at 11:25 pmSala+mantits-Remember Seinfeld Where Kramer and George’s father come up with the bra for men, They called it the “Bro” and/or the Manzier, sorry Mantits uh…. Mantis
Salamantis,
How many dead Iraqis would be acceptable?
Comment by Zooey
Yes, Sally, how many?
October 18th, 2006 at 11:30 pm#90 BnF, How ya doing, big guy? Still absurdly claiming that appellate courts re-try issues of fact, as you did yesterday? Good luck on that bar exam, junior. You are gonna need it!
October 18th, 2006 at 11:34 pm#17….Juan C…
Mets win tonight! Game 7 tomorrow at Shea!
LET’S GO METS!!!!!
October 18th, 2006 at 11:37 pmBoth sides should leave Cindy Sheehan’s son out of this discussion. Sadly he is gone and not around to speak for himself in this debate. So it’s regrettable when both sides decide to use his memory or what they suppose he would think to score political points. Let him be, there are more than enough valid points for both sides to make.
October 18th, 2006 at 11:39 pm#96:
You argue that killing jihadists just makes more jihadists, and thus we should stop. But even Muhammed, whom Usama Bin Laden quoted, said that people tend to back the “strong horse”. Make no mistake about it; Al Qaeda want to establish another Afghanistanish free-training zone in Anbar Province, to replace the one they lost. And they will fight us wherever they can, and will not stop; they will merely plan another 9/11, and another, and another, from any place we let them have. Would you rather the jihadists die against an armed and alert US military over there, or come over here again and mass murder more unarmed and clueless civilians simply trying to pursue their lives? Or would you just prefer surrender, and the choice of death, conversion or dhimmitude (second-class serfdom with the payment of tribute)?
I do not believe in the ‘weed theory’ that the more you kill the more will sprout; there are too many pristine lawns and gardens for that to be true. To stem the creation of jihadis, we need to drain the Middle Eastern swamp of tin-pot dictators and mullahs who send their surplus of young hotheads to attack the infidels so they do not foment revolution against their domestic regimes, and offer these people a better alternative - constitutional democracy, with guaranteed civil and human rights for all, personal voices in the conduct of their own affairs, electoral voices in the conduct of the affairs of their countries, and genuine economic opportunities. Democracies do not generally wage war upon one another.
Our Iraqi action, which removed a man who had pictures of Hitler and Stalin in his presidential office and who killed more Muslims than any other human in history, is an attempt to plant just such a freedom seed in the Middle East; other countries in the area, for instance Lebanon, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, and Yemen, are responding positively to varying degrees. Walid Jumblatt, head of the Lebanese Druze, said that the sight of ten million Iraqis proudly waving their ink-stained fingers after voting in free elections for the first time in their lives was, for him, the Middle Eastern equivalent of the fall of the Berlin Wall.
It was tough after Hitler was deposed, too; the Allies had to fight a counterinsurgency against the Werewolves, Nazi remnants, for another eight+ years. No one ever should have said that it would be quick or easy. But the rewards - a staunch ally of long standing - were, and are, well worth the cost in blood and treasure.
We have Al Qaeda killing the Shia in an attempt to foment civil war, but now 25 out of the 31 tribes in Anbar province are hunting down those foreign jihadists and killing them where they stand. The Shi’a have been trying to kill the jihadists and those who support them, but are killing Sunnis who would never side with foreign jihadis. This is largely a function of the Iranian sponsorship of the Mahdi Armi and the Badr Brigade, the two largest militias in Iraq. It is not in the interests of Ahmadinejad to be sandwiched between US forces in Iraq and Afghanistan while he pursues the bomb with which he can nuke Israel and, by thus provoking global warfare and chaos, hasten the return of the Mahdi, the 12th Imam, as his Hojetiyyah sect desires. Just as it was not in his interests to have worldwide attention focused upon his country’s nuclear activities, so he told his Hezbollah clients in Lebanon to kidnap Israeli soldiers just before the IAEA met to discuss it. He wanted to show that there was a price to be paid to pressure him. It was paid in Lebanese and Israeli blood. Nasrullah has said that if he had known that Israel would respond so forcefully, he never would have ordered the kidnapping, but Israel had already shown how they would respond, in Gaza, and after an earlier unsuccessful attempt, had warned Hezbollah that such an action would reap the whirlwind. He should have taken them at their word.
But Iran didn’t care; it got them out of the limelight, just like the North Korean missile test and nuke test have. Both, by the way, were attended by Iranian representatives.
No one could see except in retrospect what Germany and Japan had in common in WW II - not religion, not geography; one could say that few see what Iran and North Korea, our present Axis, have in common today.
October 18th, 2006 at 11:41 pmYou want Vietnam war lesson? Never burn other’s house and tell them it is for their Freedom. To winning a war, you should eliminate enermies not product more.
October 18th, 2006 at 11:43 pm[…] To this: President Bush is right to finally admit that violence in Iraq has reached a tipping point, and that the U.S. is not winning the war as he has claimed. […]
October 18th, 2006 at 11:46 pm91 - Yangho,
Excellent post. As you note, there are many aspects to the Art of War, one of which is the fact that you do not have to defeat an army to win a war.
The Iraqis are doing to the United States what the Spanish did to the French in 1805-12, and what the colonists did to the British in 1775-79. In both of those cases the occupying army took and held the cities, only to be bled to death by guerilla attacks around the country. We have not learned from the collective history of thousands of years of warfare.
But then, this war was not meant to be won, just to be fought. A never ending war is the way for the Party to forever maintain power and control at home. And THAT’S what this war is about.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:00 am94 - sorry Zooey, I didn’t get the chance. I just had a few minutes of down time during parent conferences tonight.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:01 amGood luck on that bar exam, junior. You are gonna need it!
Comment by Exley
How old are you, Exley? If you’re not comfortable giving your actual age, then pick the appropriate range.
18-24
October 19th, 2006 at 12:02 am25-29
30-34
35-39
Thanks, Briseadh na Faire.
I guess it would have more impact if we all sent our own messages to Judd, rather than waiting for one of us to do it.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:04 am98 - Salamantis, Iraqbodycount uses a different methodology, thus your comparison is flawed.
It’s like comparing the methodology of one group which uses public opinion polls which are accurate to +/- 3% with another group which studies only actual police reports of, say, rape (a highly underreported crime). Neither group is wrong, you merely have to understand the different methodology used in each study. Sadly, that is a skill you apparently lack.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:12 am“…our present Axis…” Comment by Salamantis — October 18, 2006 @ 11:41 pm
Sounds like someone is sold on Bush propaganda. If you’re going to post here, could you please use your own mind? Thank you.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:12 amThe Iraqis are doing to the United States what the Spanish did to the French in 1805-12, and what the colonists did to the British in 1775-79. In both of those cases the occupying army took and held the cities, only to be bled to death by guerilla attacks around the country. We have not learned from the collective history of thousands of years of warfare.Comment by Briseadh+na+Faire — October 19, 2006 @ 12:00 am
October 19th, 2006 at 12:14 amExactly, and once again, it’s the Liberal Media that only reports the negative stories and not the positive… Then as well as now, the Liberals and the Media, caused us to lose the war……:-/
#118, Awww, Zooey…I knew you couldn’t stay away from me, despite your earlier pledge to ignore me….Face it, Zooey, you can’t get enough Exley. Since you asked so nicely and seem so infatuated, I will tell you that I am over 21. And you’re 46, right?
October 19th, 2006 at 12:15 amSo, Exley, just turned 21 a couple days ago? It’s interesting how patronizing one so young can be.
If you were hoping to embarass me by mentioning my age, forget it. I’ll tell anyone my age, anytime. I’ll be 47 in a couple weeks.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:20 am#124 Awww, Zooey…I knew you couldn’t stay away from me, despite your earlier pledge to ignore me….Face it, Zooey, you can’t get enough Exley.
Oh My God…… Baaaaarf….!!!!!!! I think my Ears and Eye’s are bleeding from what I just read, and I puked all over the floor. A human cannot go to bed with this being the last post….please…
October 19th, 2006 at 12:20 amFace it, Zooey, you can’t get enough Exley. Since you asked so nicely and seem so infatuated, I will tell you that I am over 21. And you’re 46, right?Comment by Exley — October 19, 2006 @ 12:15 am
Right and you weight 400 pounds and haven’t left your parents house since 1986….Barf!!!!!!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:22 amI know, ren, I just slit my wrists….
October 19th, 2006 at 12:23 amExley must be under 30 because only someone who is under 30 would think that 46 was old and therefore a funny joke. I’d say Exley is 15. His mind has not fully developed, he’s irrational, his debating skills are still weak, he thinks he’s intelligent, and he thinks his stupid comments are smartass funny.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:24 amComment by Exley — October 18, 2006 @ 11:34 pm
I tell you what, Exley. When I am admitted to the Bar, you’ll be my first lawsuit. It’s a simple tort, really, “false light.” You keep saying I said something which I never said. I never claimed Appellate Courts re-try issues of fact. I said they review issues of fact as well as of law. You keep trying to put false words in my mouth. And I’m going to sue you. So, you’d better get yourself a good lawyer, one who hopefully knows more about the law than you. Because I can get a court order to find out who you are.
I warned you some time ago not to play your little word games with me. So, from now on out, if you want to continue playing, it’s going to cost you.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:25 amLook away Zoe…! Look away…….!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:26 amRun to the Light Carrol Ann…..
Zooey, I wasn’t trying to embarass you at all. Why would you be embarassed? You mentioned your age once before and I just wanted to let you know that I remembered. And why do I remember? I remember because I care, Zooey. Maybe that’s my problem….Maybe I care too damn much! But I can’t help it…I’m a people person. That’s the kind of guy I am. I think that is why you like me so much…
October 19th, 2006 at 12:27 am129 - I hope Exley is over 21. Because then I can haul his a$$ into court!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:27 amAlso, Notice how nobody hijacks Exley’s name for posting?
October 19th, 2006 at 12:28 am#122:
I am thinking with my own mind, and have been doing so all of my life, thankyouverymuch. I posted facts; I notice that, rather than attempt a point-by-point refutation of them, you instead indulged in a gratuitous ad hominem (ad hominem, btw, was proven to be a logical fallacy 2500 years ago by the Greeks, and that conclusion has resisted revision ever since).
As to those who doubt that the Lancet report is of dubious veracity, I have a few URLs for you:
http://www.iraqbodycount.org/press/pr14.php
http://www.claytoncramer.com/ weblog/ 2006_10_08_archive.html#116069912405842066
http://medpundit.blogspot.com/ 2006/ 10/ lancet-strikes-again-i-admit-this.html
http://medpundit.blogspot.com/2006/10/iraqi-death-toll.html
October 19th, 2006 at 12:28 amSo, from now on out, if you want to continue playing, it’s going to cost you.
Comment by Briseadh+na+Faire
Exley, I’m sure Mighty Hag will represent you.
I crack myself up…
October 19th, 2006 at 12:29 amhmmm, Zooey, you’re a Scorpio! No wonder Exley has the hots for you!!!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:30 amMaybe I care too damn much! But I can’t help it…I’m a people person. That’s the kind of guy I am. I think that is why you like me so much…
Comment by Exley
Oh Ex, you’re so sweet. If you’d like, you can write to me at zooey at goodvibes dot com
Hurry…
October 19th, 2006 at 12:32 amI never claimed Appellate Courts re-try issues of fact.
Nice retreat, BnF. Well, at least you are willing to admit when you are wrong. First, I got you to admit that you were wrong when you claimed that the MCA precludes U.S. citizens from petitioning from a writ of habeas corpus. And now you have finally admitted you were wrong when you initially argued that appellate courts re-try issues of fact, rather than reviewing the record for errors of law by the lower court.
I am glad you are willing to learn from me, rookie. Good luck on that bar exam, pardner.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:32 am140 - Ok, THAT made me laugh out loud!!!
:-D
Thank you!!!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:32 am[…] Tigerhawk demolishes the suddenly ubiquitous meme that George Bush "accepted" that Iraq is like Vietnam. As usual, the press is wrong. That is not - at all - what was said. It is also not - at all - what Bush meant. The President has apparently made news by "accepting" the Iraq-Vietnam comparison. Drudge has linked, and lefty blog Think Progress is making a big deal of it. Here is what President Bush said: Stephanopoulos asked whether the president agreed with the opinion of columnist Tom Friedman, who wrote in The New York Times today that the situation in Iraq may be equivalent to the Tet offensive in Vietnam almost 40 years ago. […]
October 19th, 2006 at 12:32 am#138… please explain how you can have your own mind and parrot Bush propaganda.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:33 amI remember because I care, Zooey. Maybe that’s my problem….Maybe I care too damn much! But I can’t help it…I’m a people person. That’s the kind of guy I am. I think that is why you like me so much…
Comment by Exley — October 19, 2006 @ 12:27 am
#17) Exley doesnt care about people. He cares about the Mets.
Comment by Juan+C — October 18, 2006 @ 8:15 pm
#17….Juan C…
Mets win tonight! Game 7 tomorrow at Shea!
LET’S GO METS!!!!!
Comment by Exley — October 18, 2006 @ 11:37 pm
Barf!,,,,Baarf!,,,,,Baaaarf!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:33 am#137, Actually Ren, My name was hijacked in today’s thread regarding electricity in Baghdad. Oxillini, PLC, and I had a discussion about name-hijacking today.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:34 amhmmm, Zooey, you’re a Scorpio! No wonder Exley has the hots for you!!!
Comment by Briseadh+na+Faire
I know it’s why I have the hots for him…
October 19th, 2006 at 12:34 am#147
Please explain where anything I posted was propaganda instead of facts.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:36 am#148…And you call yourself a Mets fan, ren?????
October 19th, 2006 at 12:37 amI know it’s why I have the hots for him…
Comment by Zooey — October 19, 2006 @ 12:34 am
Huuuurl,,, Baaarf,,,Hurrrrlll….!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:38 amI gots to go to bed now, I hope you all have nightmares from this exchange, cause I will…. nighty night ya’ll..
#153…everything you posted is Bush propaganda! And you can’t see it??? You’ve got to be kidding!!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:41 amI gots to go to bed now, I hope you all have nightmares from this exchange, cause I will…. nighty night ya’ll..
Comment by ren
You’re too easy, ren. :)
October 19th, 2006 at 12:41 amI think Ex is checking out goodvibes dot com…..
October 19th, 2006 at 12:44 amFYI, I am a registered Democrat, and voted for Clinton twice, scootching up in the voter line in a chair because after an auto accident I could not stand, to vote for his re-election. I have been an abortion clinic escort in Pensacola, Florida, where three people have been murdered by anti-abortion activists, and have spent Christmans and Mother’s Day nights in clinics so that anti-abortionists would have to take life (mine) in order to firebomb them on such significant (to them) days. I have served in the US military during the Carter administration.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:45 amMy first Republican vote was to re-elect Dubya. As much as I abhor his reactionary social agenda, and as much as I think that both the Democratic tax-and-spend policy and the Republican borrow-and-spend policy are fiscal disasters (Clinton had that one right - against his own party), I simply, after studying Kerry’s personal history and voting record and listening to his speeches, could not trust him with the safety and security of this nation at this critical time - which is why I am leaning towards Rudolph Giuliani, a social liberal, fiscal conservative, and foreign policy realist, in 2008.
I think Ex is checking out goodvibes dot com…..
Comment by Briseadh+na+Faire
:-D
October 19th, 2006 at 12:47 amRegarding Sen. Larry Craig of Idaho who got outed as Bisexual: No posters have mentioned that exposing oneself or engaging in sex in public restrooms is considered a crime > in fact if you get caught in the act, and convicted in court, you then are required to register as a sex offender, so if in fact Craig had sex in Union Station restrooms in DC, then Larry is a sex offender > why is this not being investigated by the DC police department? And why should Sen. Craig be allowed to remain in the Senate seeking icky sex in unclean restrooms? The GOP members are sex deviants!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:47 am#158
The broad brush will not be sufficient; please post specifics, and we can clearly debate them.
October 19th, 2006 at 12:48 amDC Republican Senators, like Larry Craig, are so cheap minded that they do not even hire clean male escorts, nor rent a room to have sex, so they would rather get a icky BJ in a restroom by a drunk? > blows my mind!
October 19th, 2006 at 1:00 amIslamofascism vs. Christian Fundamentalism: Which is the Greater Threat?
By Salamantis
I view the contemporary Islamofascist memeset as currently more dangerous to freedom and tolerance than the Fundamentalist Christian one, for a number of reasons.
1) Recent History
The lion’s share of mass-killing terror attacks in the past quarter-century have been perpetrated by these people, and not Fundamentalist Christians (although they, too, are on my “Danger, Will Robinson!” list). 9/11, London, Beslan, Bali, Madrid, the USS Cole, the Kenyan and Tanzanian embassies, the Khobar Towers…the list could go on and on.
2) Fundamentalist Literalism
Christians believe that the Bible was written by human beings, under Holy inspiration, while the official position of Islam is that the Qu’ran (literally, the Recitation) was dictated to Muhammed, from Allah (God) by the Archangel Gabriel, and is word-for-word accurate and correct for all time. Thus, while there is a reasonable split between Fundamentalist Christians, who take the Bible literally, and the rest of Christians, who see parable, poetry, metaphor, simile, era-linked human prejudices, contradictions and inaccuracies in the Bible, no such split is officially possible within Islam. All observant Muslims are expected to submit to the literalist stance; in fact, Islam translates as Submission.
3) More Violent Character
While there are a half-dozen or so peace-and-tolerance passages contained within the Qu’ran, there are also mo