Iraq: Worse Than Civil War
Iraq: Worse Than Civil War
For the last few months, top Bush administration officials have refused to admit that Iraq is currently in a civil war — disagreeing with many of Iraq’s leaders, U.S. troops in Iraq, and seven in ten Americans.
Recent estimates of Iraqis killed over the last three and a half years have ranged from 40,000 to more than half a million.
The simple fact of the matter is the situation in Iraq is worse than civil war — the world is witnessing at least four major internal conflicts in Iraq:
1) A Shiite-Sunni civil war in Baghdad and the central part of Iraq. For much of the last year, a vicious campaign of sectarian cleansing has been taking place in the neighborhoods of Baghdad and the surrounding central regions, with Shiite militias targeting Sunni Iraqis and Sunni insurgent groups bombing Shiite sites.
The Los Angeles Times reported yesterday that the latest killings this week in the central part of the country may be directly related to the lack of progress on the national reconciliation front. U.S. troops on the ground in Iraq have argued that the political solution, and not more boots on the ground, is the key to stopping the conflict: “you fix the government, you fix the problem.”
2) Intra-Shiite conflict in the south. Less noticed in the American media have been some battles between Iraqi Shiites in the streets of southern cities such as Diwaniya and Basra. In these clashes, intra-Shiite political disputes have being played out in violence in the streets — and in some cases U.S. forces have supported one faction versus another.
3) Sunni Arab insurgency in the West. The Sunni Arab insurgency continues to undermine security in the Western part of Iraq. The chief of intelligence for the Marine Corps in Iraq filed a report last month saying that the Al Qaeda in Iraq insurgent group has filled a political vacuum there.
4) Arab-Kurdish violence in the North. Violence and tensions have increased in northern Iraq between Arabs and Kurds, particularly in the disputed city of Kirkuk.
The Bush administration still does not have the right diplomatic, political or military strategy to deal with each of these multiple conflicts — all of which add up to a situation that is worse than civil war.
The United States needs to call for an immediate internal peace conference to put a stop to Iraq’s civil war, as the Center for American Progress proposes in its Strategic Redeployment plan.
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The problem is Bush. He is a brick wall standing in the way of finding the least harmful solution to the Iraq disaster.
October 18th, 2006 at 2:46 pmWhy does TP show pictures of Manhattan under a headline about Iraq??!
October 18th, 2006 at 2:56 pmHow bad can it be when a boy can play hopscotch in the street?
***sarcasm off***
October 18th, 2006 at 2:58 pm“I’m the decider, and I decide what is best. And what’s best is for Don Rumsfeld to remain as the secretary of defense.”
—George W. Bush, Commander-In-Chief of US Armed Forces, Washington, D.C., April 18, 2006
October 18th, 2006 at 2:58 pmKnow any good missing WMD jokes?
October 18th, 2006 at 2:59 pmWell, if Baghdad is just like Manhattan, as the GOP seems to think, then that picture of Manhattan with all the people dying from bombs in the road should be a fine substitute for a picture of Baghdad. What’s the problem?
October 18th, 2006 at 2:59 pmAh Manhattan…a little Scotch Whiskey, some Steely Dan…we can play “Hide the WMD” later, honey…
October 18th, 2006 at 3:02 pmAnyone who thinks Iraq is not in a state of civil war has their head up their a**. Which is a perfect description of (not my) President Bush.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:03 pmThe violence that is occurring in Iraq is a direct result of the U.S. presence in Iraq. But Think Progress’s advocacy of the Strategic Redeployment plan is not the answer. This plan calls for a “smaller, nimble force… to train Iraqi security forces” ignoring the fact that there are already 300,000 trained Iraqis in the Iraqi militia who still cannot fight on their own without help from the American military. Iraqiization, like Vietenamization, is a policy that seems doomed to fail. The Strategic Redeployment plan is against the idea of an immediate withdrawal, claiming that it will “permanently destabilize Iraq”, ignoring the words on this post by Think Progress, which explains in vivid detail the chaos that is already happening in Iraq. There is already anarchy happening in that country. It is certainly not going to become ameliorated by having the United States military, which is already responsible for so much bloodshed, remain in Iraq. Lastly, there were ten U.S. soldiers killed yesterday in Iraq. How many more soldiers have to die [perhaps 57,000, the same number who died in Vietnam?] in Iraq before Think Progress allows that immediate withdrawal is the best way to ensure that no more Americans die for a less than noble cause?
October 18th, 2006 at 3:04 pmIsn’t this thread aiding the enemy?
October 18th, 2006 at 3:06 pmGeez, the media always report the bad news – what about the two hours of electricity every day?
October 18th, 2006 at 3:06 pmCheney says things are remarkably well, and he should know, right?
May God’s CURSE be upon every George W. Bush supporting CONservative/neoCONservative on this planet!
October 18th, 2006 at 3:07 pmNot only has W created this horrible disaster, but he continues his state of denial, and steadfastly refuses to veer from his course.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:08 pmMr. Bush, you destablilized a country, now what are you gonna do?
“stay the course, we must fight the terrorists there so they don’t come over here and invade our country”
There is civil war in Iraq Mr. President, between the Shiites and the Sunni.
“we must fight the terrorists there so they don’t come over here and invade our country, you ignorant!”
You don’t even know what I’m saying to you, do you Mr. President?
“we must fight the terrorists there!”
October 18th, 2006 at 3:08 pmHell, Representative Terry Everett, a seven-term Alabama Republican who is vice chairman of the House intelligence subcommittee on technical and tactical intelligence doesn’t know the difference between a Sunni and a Shiite. When asked, Mr. Everett responded with a low chuckle. He thought for a moment: “One’s in one location, another’s in another location. No, to be honest with you, I don’t know. I thought it was differences in their religion, different families or something.â€
Based on that beaut, do you expect a sudden and intuitive realization from the White House that there is indeed a Civil War?
October 18th, 2006 at 3:10 pmGo Team Terror!
October 18th, 2006 at 3:11 pmWhy isn’t there more about HR6166? Bush just signed into law the right for him to determine if the people of this blog are enemy combatents and would be thrown into prison with no due process “habius Corpus” was just signed away. What the hell? Is everybody asleep?
October 18th, 2006 at 3:12 pmI haven’t seen any photos of bullets taped to front doors, so everything must be going very well.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:12 pm“we gotta watch out for the gays too! They want to invade this country! That’s why we gotta stop gay-marriage!?”
October 18th, 2006 at 3:14 pmSo this WMD walks into bar and sez “I caught my wife cheating. Damn whore’s been all over the east, west, south and north somewhat”.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:15 pmsomeone send that pic to peter king or better yet a us newspaper. nevermind none of them would run it
October 18th, 2006 at 3:17 pmWe’re engaged in a global struggle by following a murderous ideology that despises freedom and crushes all dissent, and has territorial ambitions and pursues totalitarian aims. … And against such an enemy there is only one effective response: Impeach my ass. Go ahead, elect Democrats in November and see if you can. I’ll declare marital law faster than salmon swim upstream. The security of our nation depends on the desecration of liberty in this nation.”
What I really meant on
October 18th, 2006 at 3:17 pmJuly 4, 2006
17 – look at the thinkfast threads from yesterday and today.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:19 pmOoops, I meant Marshall Law, kinda like marshall Dillon, ya know, on Gunsmoke. What a stud. How bout them marshall arts, hyh!
October 18th, 2006 at 3:20 pmThere’s a billboard in Connecticut naming names of the scumbags who voted for the Military Commissions Act.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:23 pmU.S. Sen. John McCain answered with some dark humor when asked today what he would do if Democrats gain control of the House and Senate.
“I think I’d just commit suicide,†he said with a smile.
Just another good reason to hope for te best on Nov. 7th.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:24 pmCan I contribute to the John McCain Casket fund?
October 18th, 2006 at 3:25 pmRemember the name of the military operation in Afghanistan?
Operation Enduring Freedom
October 18th, 2006 at 3:26 pm
>> So this WMD walks into bar and sez “I caught my wife cheating.
>> Damn whore’s been all over the east, west, south and north
>> somewhatâ€.
LOL!
Courtesy of Slate, we get this:
The [Wall Street] Journal fronts a good investigation into the shoddy, pointless training of the U.S. troops who advise the nascent Iraqi forces—ostensibly the linchpin of U.S. strategy there. “In my 28 years of military service I have never seen such an appalling approach to training,” said one of the officers who went through the training. The story includes links to two after-action reviews from officers who went through the training; they’re pretty entertaining reading. “It’s a good thing that the newspapers did not get a hold of this fiasco,” reads one. Oops.
Unfortunately, the link is subscriber-only. Damn MSM…we want to know moar!
October 18th, 2006 at 3:30 pmWhere the voices of dissents , where the voices to recall NOW .
October 18th, 2006 at 3:31 pmWeighing in on Connecticut’s hotly contested congressional races, a group of religious activists have unveiled a giant billboard off busy Interstate 95 that accuses four candidates of voting to allow torture. The billboard in Stratford names Democratic U.S. Sen. Joe Lieberman and Republican Reps. Christopher Shays, Rob Simmons and Nancy Johnson as supporters of the Military Commissions Act of 2006.
From Kos-
October 18th, 2006 at 3:36 pmHey guys….What are we talking about today….?? Anyone played the new Dungeons and Dragons game?
October 18th, 2006 at 3:41 pmSounds like we need to send more troops into Iraq. Man I hope if the Dems win they will understand the importance of winning the war on terror and send more troops. It is just to vital that we win there.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:41 pmWhere the voices of dissents , where the voices to recall NOW .
Comment by Grey+Eagle — October 18, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
Where are the hallucinating trolls and their baseless whining about how 650,000 dead is exaggerated, and how we really haven’t killed that many more Iraqis than Saddam did, just a few hundred thousand maybe? Where are the hallucinating trolls to tell us that if we don’t have civil war in Iraq, we will have to fight the enemy on our front lawns?
October 18th, 2006 at 3:42 pm#12
“May God’s CURSE be upon every George W. Bush supporting CONservative/neoCONservative on this planet!”
Comment by big+papa — October 18, 2006 @ 3:07 pm
Hey, you nieve minded Al Queada lovin’ Commie….
October 18th, 2006 at 3:42 pmIs that the way you talk to your fellow Americans?
Get a Life…Jerk.
And don’t mind answering me, I’ll ignore your ignorant a** anyway.
And it all started so well
October 18th, 2006 at 3:43 pm> Where are the hallucinating trolls and their baseless whining about
> how 650,000 dead is exaggerated
STOP! Or Christopher Hitchens will VISIT THIS SITE!
October 18th, 2006 at 3:44 pmFrom the White House web site:
Strategic Vision For The War On Terror (with caveats)
Our Strategy Recognizes That The War On Terror Is A Different Kind Of War, Involving Both A Battle Of Arms And A Battle Of Ideas. Not only are we fighting our terrorist enemies (the people of Iraq) on the battlefield, we are promoting freedom and human dignity (by revoking Habeus Corpus and allowing whatever I say isn’t torture) as alternatives to the terrorists’ perverse vision of oppression (occupation) and totalitarian rule. To win the War on Terror, the United States will continue to lead an expansive international effort to:
Defeat violent extremism (especially in the evangelicals) as a threat to our way of life as a free and open society. .. blah blah blah…More vague bs here____________________
October 18th, 2006 at 3:45 pmThe anger in here is amazing!! It’s a wonder you people haven’t started lynch mobs to get rid of anyone who has a differing opinion than yours! Psychos….
October 18th, 2006 at 3:47 pmbig papa,
I didn’t know that you were nieve and that you love Al Queada. Who is Al anyway? The local weatherman?
But this is my favorite……so ripe full of irony.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:47 pmI’ll ignore your ignorant a** anyway.
Fun Greak – what’s a neive mind? Slang for nevah mind?
October 18th, 2006 at 3:47 pmOh, and al doesn’t like his named spelled with the u after the q.
Oh, and he wasn’t talking to his fellow Americans, he was talking to you.
What we are seeing in Iraq now is truly the start of the end of days. I am convinced that the conflict in Iraq was inevitable, and is predicted in the Bible. The end result of what we have started will lead to the epic final battle that is described in the book of revelation. Repent now, and accept Jesus Christ as your personal savior. It is not too late.
October 18th, 2006 at 3:49 pmI am inclined to side with the GOP on this one….Judging from the pic at the top of the post….Things are going great!..Looks like the Iraqi marathon team has finally begun training again!
October 18th, 2006 at 3:53 pmThank you for that plug Apocalypse!!
October 18th, 2006 at 3:54 pmThis isn’t surprising. If you listen to John Doolittle, this is the beginning of Armageddon: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wDNjV-dH4SQ
October 18th, 2006 at 3:55 pmArmageddon will soon be upon us. The righteous will dwell with the Lord in heaven, and the wicked will be judged. Repent, ye sinners! Repent!
October 18th, 2006 at 3:57 pmTP, you’re just distracting from the real issues in America – banning flag burning, deciphering ratings on video games, and anti-constitutionalizing gay marriage…
Sheesh – this thing has become even worse than I expected… Vietnam might actually come out looking better than Iraq in historical context…
October 18th, 2006 at 3:58 pmFollow me my children…I will lead thee to thine happy place!!
October 18th, 2006 at 3:59 pmTerry King
“Sounds like we need to send more troops into Iraq.” Where exactly do you propose that these troops come from, the graves of Alexander the Great’s soldiers? You also believe that is important to win the war on terror. Apparently you have not been paying attention to what Congressman Murtha has been saying, which is that the terrorists or outside forces that are engaged in fighting the U.S. and coalition forces in Iraq number 7 per cent. Again, that number is 7 NOT seventy per cent.
The overwhelming majority of those who are fighting the U.S. forces are the resistance fighters, who will fight until their last dying breath until the U.S. is finally driven from their soil. To attempt a simple analogy, if another country invaded the United States, there would be pockets of resistance forming to expel the invader from the United States. That is what is going on in Iraq. Again, this concept should not be that difficult to grasp. The United States is illegally occupying another country and the citizens of Iraq are doing everything they can to make sure that they leave their country.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:00 pmWell, I’m disappointed that people would propagandize to that effect because the stakes are too high for that kind of illogical behavior. We have got a plan — first of all a stated goal. Armageddon!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:01 pmWhere are the hallucinating trolls to tell us that if we don’t have civil war in Iraq, we will have to fight the enemy on our front lawns?
Comment by RealScientist — October 18, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
Listening to Rush Airbag to know what to come and parrot in here?
They’ll appear all together saying the same asinine stuff about us smearing the neocons just before the election…
October 18th, 2006 at 4:02 pm> What we are seeing in Iraq now is truly the start of the end of days.
Yeah, but Meggido is not Iraq, dude. Tougher yet, it’s just the “end of days” for a whole lot of Iraqis but nary an American. So no afterlife cookies yet, sorry.
Anyway, this “end of days” meme is totally irrelevant to most of humanity. Damn desert crazies infecting the roman empire which was working quite well with Jupiter banging naked maidens on Mount Olympus, thank you…
October 18th, 2006 at 4:02 pmLooks like Manhattan to me….like a scene right out of “Escape from New York.”
October 18th, 2006 at 4:03 pmThe anger in here is amazing!! It’s a wonder you people haven’t started lynch mobs to get rid of anyone who has a differing opinion than yours! Psychos….
Comment by Harry_s_natch — October 18, 2006 @ 3:47 pm
Actually, not being angry about the incompetant “administration in denial” that started this holocaustic massacre is psychopathic. Seek help.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:05 pmIt’s Worse Than a Civil War in Iraq…
Recent estimates of Iraqis killed over the last three and a half years have ranged from 40,000 to more than half a million. The simple fact of the matter is the situation in Iraq is worse than civil war — the world is witnessing at least four major …
October 18th, 2006 at 4:06 pm#52-
Yes, Meggido is not Iraq. However, as I said, this is just the beginning. The final confrontation will eventually be at Meggido, but as we are witnessing, the starting point is Babylon. Mankind will suffer great cataclysms, and the world will soon be on fire. Repent now!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:07 pmWhat we are seeing in Iraq now is truly the start of the end of days. I am convinced that the conflict in Iraq was inevitable, and is predicted in the Bible.
Comment by Apocalypse Now — October 18, 2006 @ 3:49 pm
Nonsense. We’re 5.5 billion years away from the end of the earth (when the sun will run out of energy and die).
You all were predicting the end of the world in 2000. You’ve been quiet since then, well – until now. Do us all a favor and keep your ridiculous beliefs to yourself. You were wrong in 2000, and you’re wrong now. Spare those of us who don’t want to hear about it anymore.
Thank you.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:09 pmExit Strategy for Iraq
Given that we did NOT go to war in Iraq for the purpose of securing its vast proven oil reserves for American and British energy conglomerates; and
Given that we certainly did NOT go to war to establish a permanent military presence in Iraq; and
Given that we DID go to war solely for the purpose of eliminating a possible WMD threat and to bring freedom and democracy to the Iraqi people; and
Given that all sixteen U.S. intelligence agencies agree that our continued presence in Iraq is unfortunately creating more terrorists than are being eliminated; and
Given that captured al Qaeda communications show that the terrorists actually WANT coalition forces to remain in Iraq in order to bolster al Qaeda’s standing with the insurgency; then
Determining a timetable for our departure from Iraq is elegantly simple:
Let the Iraqi people decide. Let them vote.
The Iraqis freely and fairly elected a democratic government. (Remember all those purple fingers?) Well, by golly, let them again exercise their hard won suffrage.
Put the question to the Iraqis: “Having overthrown your brutal dictator and having assisted you in establishing your democracy, what would you have us do now? Stick around indefinitely, or withdraw our forces soon, by a date certain? As altruistic liberators we will respect and honor your decision.â€
Surely the Iraqis are in the best position to judge whether our continued presence is helping or hindering the hard work that lies ahead for them.
Let the Iraqi people decide. Let them vote.
With 140,000 troops on the ground we can reasonably ensure the integrity and security of the polling places for one day. (We proved that during their election.) And, just a hunch here, if the Shiites and Sunnis and Kurds actually trust that we’ll honor the result of the vote, I suspect that securing the polls won’t be all that difficult.
Let the Iraqi people decide. Let them vote.
What do you say, George? Do we practice what we preach?
October 18th, 2006 at 4:12 pmIt’s not the end of the world???
Damn! I was soooo looking forward to meeting all of you
October 18th, 2006 at 4:12 pm#57-
Something tells me you’ll be among the first to be cast into the fires of hell. The streets will flow with the blood of the non-believers. Repent!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:13 pm#60…*yawn*
October 18th, 2006 at 4:16 pmThe streets will flow with the blood of the non-believers.
Comment by Apocalypse+Now
Why are you quoting Charles Manson?
October 18th, 2006 at 4:16 pmI am Alpha and Ome’ga, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I Jesus have sent mine angel to testify unto you these things in the churches. I am the root and the offspring of David, and the bright and morning star.
- From the Book of Revelation
Repent ye sinners, for the wrath of the Lord will soon be upon you!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:18 pmI don’t offer any virgins in my heaven but I can get you a nice Blonde with low standards!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:20 pmRepent?
The only ones who need to repent are the evil doers in the MonkeyPalace. The blood of Iraq and Afghanistan is on their hands.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:21 pmAnd after these things I saw another angel come down from heaven, having great power; and the earth was lightened with his glory.
And he cried mightily with a strong voice, saying, Babylon the great is fallen, is fallen, and is become the habitation of devils, and the hold of every foul spirit, and a cage of every unclean and hateful bird.
For all nations have drunk of the wine of the wrath of her fornication, and the kings of the earth have committed fornication with her, and the merchants of the earth are waxed rich through the abundance of her delicacies.
And I heard another voice from heaven, saying, Come out of her, my people, that ye be not partakers of her sins, and that ye receive not of her plagues.
- From the Book of Revelation
Babylon has fallen. Repent!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:22 pmSomething tells me you’ll be among the first to be cast into the fires of hell.
Something should tell you that I don’t believe in Hell. It’s more fear tactics meant to scare people into giving their hard-earned wages to pedophile priests who like to be in control of others. No thanks. I use my brain for thinking, not just a place to rest a hat.
The streets will flow with the blood of the non-believers.
More nonsense. Take it somewhere that people actually are that gullable and pathetic. Try RedState.org.
Repent!
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 4:13 pm
Fire and brimstone are more inviting that eternity with a room full of insane Jesus Freaks.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:23 pmI don’t offer any virgins in my heaven but I can get you a nice Blonde with low standards!
Comment by Jesus_Christ
I thought mAnn Coulter would be in hell.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:24 pmDear God,
Please save me from your followers. Their will to die is stronger than their will to live or their understanding of what people really said about you.
Thanks. BTW, I appreciate you educating Europe, Asia, and South America. But can’t you do something about all those Bible thumping a**holes in the USA? They just don’t seem to understand the responsibility you’ve given them They keep getting confused and misunderstand what you want them to do.
Regards – Your Son
October 18th, 2006 at 4:24 pmKutadanta accused the Buddha: “I am told that you teach the law of life and the way, yet you tear down religion. Your followers despise rituals and abandon sacrifices. But reverence for the gods can only be shown through sacrifices. The very nature of religion is that of worship and sacrifice.”
The Buddha replied: “Greater than the massacring of bullocks is the sacrifice of self. He who offers up his evil desires will see the uselessness of slaughtering animals at the altar. Blood has no power to cleanse, but the giving up of harmful actions will make the heart whole. Better than worshiping gods is following the ways of goodness.”
October 18th, 2006 at 4:24 pm-Digha Nikaya
Now that a majority of our own people in and out of government agree that this debacle is the result of a policy based on lies, it’s time to call for impeachment and charges of treason and crimes against humanity against the neocon junta members.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:25 pmRepent ye sinners, for the wrath of the Lord will soon be upon you!
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 4:18 pm
Wasn’t Hay-seus supposed to return before all the witnesses to his murder died… 2000 years ago?
Give it up.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:25 pmOK, OK, if I repent will you see that W gets struck by lightning, twice?
October 18th, 2006 at 4:26 pmHere’s the billboard:
http://reclaimingthepropheticvoice.org/billboard-final-10-13.pdf
October 18th, 2006 at 4:26 pmI don’t offer any virgins in my heaven but I can get you a nice Blonde with low standards!
Comment by Jesus_Christ — October 18, 2006 @ 4:20 pm
Too funny!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:27 pmI thought mAnn Coulter would be in hell.
Comment by dlet — October 18, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
I think he said a ‘nice’ blonde… definitely not Ann-ti-christ Coulter
October 18th, 2006 at 4:28 pm#67-
I feel sorry for you. However, when I am sitting at the right hand of the Lord, and you are burning in the lake of fire, I will pray for your salvation. Remember, it is not too late for you. Jesus saves!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:28 pmThe point that everyone seems to be missing is that Civil war is exactly what the PNAC wants in Iraq – by fomenting civil war in several countries and open war in still others the instability in the middle east continues to rise. The plan seems obvious to me… cause war, mayhem and destruction until multiple regimes you dont like fall apart under the weight of their own war machine or until the populktation has been killed off. Its a form of third party genocide, we can claim that we didnt commit genocide because it was civil war that did it when in reality we are probably providing arms to the insurgents and the various groups in the hope they will all kill each other.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:29 pmAnd there were voices, and thunders, and lightnings; and there was a great earthquake, such as was not since men were upon the earth, so mighty an earthquake, and so great.
And the great city was divided into three parts, and the cities of the nations fell: and great Babylon came in remembrance before God, to give unto her the cup of the wine of the fierceness of his wrath.
And every island fled away, and the mountains were not found.
And there fell upon men a great hail out of heaven, every stone about the weight of a talent: and men blasphemed God because of the plague of the hail; for the plague thereof was exceeding great.
- From the Book of Revelation
And the city shall be divided into three parts? Sounds like Iraq to me. Kurd, Sunni, and Shia. Repent, ye sinners! It is not too late.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:31 pmBetter than worshiping gods is following the ways of goodness.â€
-Digha Nikaya
Comment by RUCerious — October 18, 2006 @ 4:24 pm
Nice post. I thank a book I read on Zen Buddhism for helping me cast of the chains of organized religion – basically trading a life of suffering and uncertainty for one of reality-based awareness and happiness in living a life with daily purpose.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:32 pmIraq is a geopolitical region, not a city.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:35 pmWhat interest rate is Jesus getting on his savings?
However, when I am sitting at the right hand of the Lord, and you are burning in the lake of fire, I will pray for your salvation.
Comment by Apocalypse+Now
If he is already in hell isn’t he past the point of salvation. You don’t really think these things through do you.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:35 pmI feel sorry for you. However, when I am sitting at the right hand of the Lord, and you are burning in the lake of fire, I will pray for your salvation. Remember, it is not too late for you.
I feel sorry for you – wasting the life you’ve been given for what you ‘believe’ will be behind curtain number 2.
Death is the end of our existence, therefore spending it worshipping invisible idols is pointless.
Besides, your religion is silly. And the Bible reads like a really bad cartoon.
Jesus saves!
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 4:28 pm
Saves what? The guy’s been dead for nearly 2000 years…
October 18th, 2006 at 4:35 pmAnd the city shall be divided into three parts? Sounds like Iraq to me. Kurd, Sunni, and Shia. Repent, ye sinners! It is not too late.
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 4:31 pm
Oh, yes, yes, you’ve convinced me with your ridiculous connection to a very common number… Go away now.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:38 pmSo he carried me away in the spirit into the wilderness: and I saw a woman sit upon a scarlet-colored beast, full of names of blasphemy, having seven heads and ten horns.
And the woman was arrayed in purple and scarlet color, and decked with gold and precious stones and pearls, having a golden cup in her hand full of abominations and filthiness of her fornication: and upon her forehead was a name written,
MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
And I saw the woman drunken with the blood of the saints, and with the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
-From the Book of Revelation
Babylon again? I see a pattern forming here. Present day Iraq is the whore, druken on the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus. We, the righteous, are the martyrs. Repent!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:38 pmun – thanks. I know I shouldn’t be so unkind to posters like Apox, but I am working on it.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:39 pmI get 4 and no points if you really need to know RUC….
October 18th, 2006 at 4:39 pmYou don’t really think these things through do you.
Comment by dlet — October 18, 2006 @ 4:35 pm
Kinda the purpose of ‘faith’, huh? Wanting people to suspend logical thinking and facts to believe in something super-natural.
(By the way, I’m a she : )
October 18th, 2006 at 4:41 pm#80-
Blast your heathen religion! Zen Buddhism will not save your soul from the eternal fire. The path to salvation goes through Jesus Christ alone. Repent!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:41 pmBabylon again? I see a pattern forming here. Present day Iraq is the whore, druken on the blood of the saints and the blood of the martyrs of Jesus.
I see you twisting a bunch of literary analogies to fit a situation you wish were true. That’s it.
We, the righteous, are the martyrs.
No, you’re obnoxious.
Repent!
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 4:38 pm
No – go away.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:43 pmLine up behind me folks…You heard the man. I’ll save you all!!!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:43 pm> Babylon has fallen. Repent!
Babylon has fallen in 330 B.C. when Alexander the Great paid a visit. He took on the freakish project of making it capital of the World. Unfortunately, this plan was rudely interrupted by an end-of-life event. (Christianity having not yet been invented, he went straight to hell.) The Parthians then checked in in 144 B.C. (at that time the town had seriously gone down the ‘must visit’ scale). They elected to build a new capital at Ctesiphon instead of staying. Why is Babylon still being mentioned 2149 years later? Shouldn’t people in the meantime know that it has fallen?
October 18th, 2006 at 4:44 pmWhy did one of the crazy nut job right wing whackos use Dungeons and Dragons as an analogy for Iraq?
October 18th, 2006 at 4:44 pmun – thanks. I know I shouldn’t be so unkind to posters like Apox, but I am working on it.
Comment by RUCerious — October 18, 2006 @ 4:39 pm
You’re welcome.
They think we should be killed for being non-believers, so really, giving them a hard time is hardly comparable : )
October 18th, 2006 at 4:45 pm> MYSTERY, BABYLON THE GREAT, THE MOTHER OF HARLOTS AND
> ABOMINATIONS OF THE EARTH.
Actually, this is as good a reason as any to rewatch ‘Metropolis’.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:47 pmThe Apocalypse = event
Armageddon = place
So, a place is almost uppon us?
If you are going to spew right wing end of days speak, at least get your friggin’ facts straight or God will be mad at you for misquoting his words.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:47 pmBlast your heathen religion!
Dude, I’m an Atheist. I think all religions are cop-outs. People should form tehir own ideology instead of blindly ascribing to the misogynistic scribblings of some heat-stroked desert dewllers…
Zen Buddhism will not save your soul from the eternal fire.
Will it save me from your incoherent ramblings?
The path to salvation goes through Jesus Christ alone.
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 4:41 pm
Prove it. (And you can’t quote the Bible because it’s not a valid authority as you can’t prove it either).
October 18th, 2006 at 4:48 pm#89 – Came to this website and all I got was this lousy T-shirt that says -
October 18th, 2006 at 4:48 pmHeathen and Proud Of It!
You sure the whore of Babylon isn’t named Ann?
October 18th, 2006 at 4:49 pmCalm down sploogeboy…don’t go putting words into the Lords mouth!! He loves all people!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:50 pmAnd there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
the same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
and the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
-From the Book of Revelation
Your heathen religions and worship of the beast will only lead to your eternal damndation. Babylon has fallen, and we are all drinking from the cup of wrath. Repent!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:51 pmYou sure the whore of Babylon isn’t named Ann?
Comment by RUCerious — October 18, 2006 @ 4:49 pm
Well, if you translate it to French, then to German, then to Latin and then to Hebrew – and then rearrange the letters and view them upside down with a mirror – hey, they do! Lord Almighty be! It’s a sign from Jeebus that we should all throw logic out the window and act like crazy folks…
October 18th, 2006 at 4:52 pmYour heathen religions and worship of the beast will only lead to your eternal damndation.
Good, fine, okay – so noted. We’re going to “Hell”. You’re work here is done – go away now.
Babylon has fallen, and we are all drinking from the cup of wrath. Repent!
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
You’re definitely drinking something… Probably smoking something as well.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:55 pm“The United States needs to call for an immediate internal peace conference to put a stop to Iraq’s civil war,”
HEY! A lot of good men were ruthlessly sent to their deaths TO START THIS CIVIL WAR.
If the civil war is stopped, those men died in vain.
If they died for Bush’s lies, that’s one thing. But dying to stop Tojo is heroic. We must not interfere with the Bush Genocide in Iraq.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:55 pmAnd I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and he that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness he doth judge and make war.
His eyes were as a flame of fire, and on his head were many crowns; and he had a name written, that no man knew, but he himself.
And he was clothed with a vesture dipped in blood: and his name is called The Word of God.
And the armies which were in heaven followed him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
And out of his mouth goeth a sharp sword, that with it he should smite the nations; and he shall rule them with a rod of iron: and he treadeth the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God.
And he hath on his vesture and on his thigh a name written, KING OF KINGS, AND LORD OF LORDS.
-From the Book of Revelation
October 18th, 2006 at 4:58 pmI hope there is something to do up there though. Playing harp is not my thing at all.
Comment by El+Tonno — October 18, 2006 @ 4:51 pm
That was funny as hell – pardon the pun :)
You must be righteous- you were able to get the uncensored f-word through the spam filter! Now that’s a miracle!
October 18th, 2006 at 4:58 pmIt’s a sign from Jeebus that we should all throw logic out the window and act like crazy folks…
I gave no such sign????
October 18th, 2006 at 4:58 pmCareful or I’ll have to bannish you to an eternity of servicing middle eastern men with no clue as to what a proper bath is!
And I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
And I saw the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against him that sat on the horse, and against his army.
And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped his image. These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
And the remnant were slain with the sword of him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of his mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.
-From the Book of Revelation
Repent, ye worshippers of the beast, for the lake of fire and brimstone awaits.
October 18th, 2006 at 4:59 pmThe anger in here is amazing!! It’s a wonder you people haven’t started lynch mobs to get rid of anyone who has a differing opinion than yours! Psychos….
Comment by Harry_s_natch — October 18, 2006 @ 3:47 pm
Straight out of troll training, I see. Anyone else notice that this “anger” angle is being spewed by most of the trolls here lately? Assuming they aren’t all the same person.
Hey, troll, don’t you think that your leaders O’Reilly, Limbaugh, Coulter, and all the other hate mongers at Fox News act a little bit angry? Er, I mean unhinged?
October 18th, 2006 at 5:00 pmAhhhh – I love the smell of napalm in the morning!
October 18th, 2006 at 5:02 pmAnd the Spirit and the bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.
For I testify unto every man that heareth the words of the prophecy of this book, If any man shall add unto these things, God shall add unto him the plagues that are written in this book:
and if any man shall take away from the words of the book of this prophecy, God shall take away his part out of the book of life, and out of the holy city, and from the things which are written in this book.
He which testifieth these things saith, Surely I come quickly: Amen. Even so, come, Lord Jesus.
The grace of our Lord Jesus Christ be with you all. Amen.
-From the Book of Revelation
One last word for all the non-believers and all those, like unbelievable and Spudge-Boy, who mock the Lord and wear the mark of the beast. Repent!
October 18th, 2006 at 5:03 pmI gave no such sign????
You did in post #100. Well, if I translate it into pig Latin and then say it backwards really fast…
Careful or I’ll have to bannish you to an eternity of servicing middle eastern men with no clue as to what a proper bath is!
Comment by Jesus_Christ — October 18, 2006 @ 4:58 pm
Fine. If you can get Goober to stop posting Bible passages, I’d consider it an upgrade… :)
October 18th, 2006 at 5:03 pmsaying to all the fowls that fly in the midst of heaven, Come and gather yourselves together unto the supper of the great God;
that ye may eat the flesh of kings, and the flesh of captains, and the flesh of mighty men, and the flesh of horses, and of them that sit on them, and the flesh of all men, both free and bond, both small and great.
Now there’s carnivorous ducks in the story, wow! This is getting interesting!
October 18th, 2006 at 5:03 pmRS – if we can turn our anger around it will become regna, which is much better. Or yrgna, the scandanavian dialect.
October 18th, 2006 at 5:05 pmLet’s all stop getting so yrgna.
One last word
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 5:03 pm
Promise?
Please, if there is a god, then ApNow will shut the hell up…
October 18th, 2006 at 5:06 pmSpudger – how does this clown know about the 6s tatooed on your ass?
October 18th, 2006 at 5:07 pmOh hell, I wanted to hear more about the carniverous ducks.
October 18th, 2006 at 5:08 pmGuess I’ll have to go to (ugh) church.
Now there’s carnivorous ducks in the story, wow! This is getting interesting!
Comment by RUCerious — October 18, 2006 @ 5:03 pm
They have talking donkeys, apple-vending snakes, fire-breathing dragons and rising from the dead zombies in there also. It’s quite a fairytale pastiche of make-believe characters and super-natural mythology.
October 18th, 2006 at 5:08 pm#118-
Your fearless wit and mocking utterances against the Lord will not go unnoticed. Will you be so brash on the Day of Judgement, when you stand before God? I will pray for your soul.
October 18th, 2006 at 5:12 pmApocalypse Now
All you quote is Revelations – reports of visions that many Christians, myself included, believe were written as code to describe how Rome (Babylon) would soon self-destruct and the oppressed Christians there should persevere. What about the rest of the Bible, particularly Jesus’ words which would be very condemning to much of what this country is doing in the guise of “God’s Work”.
You are one-trick pony trying to run with the Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse. Go back to your stall.
October 18th, 2006 at 5:14 pm#120-
You have an interesting interpretation of Revelation. I have read a little about your interpretation. Your interpretation is not embraced by mainstream Christians. You sound like one of those “progressive” Christians, who are willing to subvert the teachings of Christ in the name of “progress”. You are worse than the non-believers, and the worshippers of the beast, for you seek to destroy from within. You are a parasite, and you the rest of the “Christians” that you claim to represent will all be condemned to eternal damnation.
October 18th, 2006 at 5:20 pmYour fearless wit and mocking utterances against the Lord will not go unnoticed.
Scary. Really. I’m terrified.
Will you be so brash on the Day of Judgement, when you stand before God?
Considering there is no god? Hard to answer that. Would be like me asking you if you will be so ignorant when the Flying Spaghetti Monster returns to Earth to judge you. Well, will you?
Besides, I did say that if there were a god, then you’d shut up. You didn’t shut up, so, I have to accept that as the final answer. Thanks for playing.
I will pray for your soul.
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 5:12 pm
I will eat a chocolate bar for your ignorance…
October 18th, 2006 at 5:22 pmYou are worse than the non-believers
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 5:20 pm
I think someone has a crush on me…
October 18th, 2006 at 5:25 pmYou are a parasite, and you the rest of the “Christians†that you claim to represent will all be condemned to eternal damnation.
Comment by Apocalypse+Now — October 18, 2006 @ 5:20 p
Judge not, pinhead. That’s God’s job – not yours. What did Jesus say again about conspicuous demonstrations of faith?
Acts, not words determine one’s salvation – unless you consider this pathetic display of mindless twaddle to be some sort of “act?”
October 18th, 2006 at 5:27 pmon the Day of Judgement, when you stand before God -
October 18th, 2006 at 5:38 pmIf that happens, I hope the big guy likes my tap dance and harmonica solo.
Apocalypse Now
Revelations is NOT Jesus’ teachings, the Bible is not to be taken literally, and you are the arbitrator of my or anyone else’s soul. You are a false prophet that Christ warned about as you spread your divisiveness and hate, placing yourself before God as a judge of men’s hearts. You are a Christian Pharisee placing your demands on your fellow man, rather than bringing the love of God to others. You say “repent” and call me a “parasite”, forgetting that Christ stated that those who call others “fool” have committed murder. The Bible is not a blunt object to hit others over the head with as you have been doing.
October 18th, 2006 at 5:40 pm“Christians, it is needless to say, utterly detest each other. They slander each other constantly with the vilest forms of abuse and cannot come to any sort of agreement in their teaching. Each sect brands its own, fills the head of its own with deceitful nonsense, and makes perfect little pigs of those it wins over to its side.”
– Celsus (2nd Century C.E.)
October 18th, 2006 at 5:51 pm“The Age of Reason was responsible for making more people into infidels than any other book except the Bible.”
October 18th, 2006 at 5:52 pm– Gordon Stein
“If you think education is expensive, try ignorance.”
October 18th, 2006 at 5:53 pm– Derek Bok Ex-president of Harvard
un –
October 18th, 2006 at 5:54 pmIsn’t it amazing how the teachings of Jesus, which mirror the tenets of most major faiths, get transformed when people get involved translating, interpreting, you know, religionifying them?
The picture clearly shows that things in Baghdad are improving. Children are playing hopscotch again while the dying look on.
October 18th, 2006 at 5:59 pmRemind which book it was it said that Jesus told the masses to call each other names. Was that Matthew or Mark?
October 18th, 2006 at 6:01 pmFear/Smear – Actually the onlookers would be clapping, but it’s hard to do with one arm.
October 18th, 2006 at 6:01 pmRevelations is NOT the teachings of Jesus. It was written long after he died by John the Baptist when he was exiled to live on an island by himself.
Learn what you are going to preach before you preach it.
October 18th, 2006 at 6:02 pmRUCerious,
Absolutely…
Animals kill for territory or food. Humans, and humans alone, kill for beliefs. And we have the nerve to call them the savages…
October 18th, 2006 at 6:02 pmI am so tired of right wing fundamentalists highjacking my religion, making it a public spectacle in the name of advancing a political agenda.
While I don’t want religion and politics mixed and would rather religious beliefs not be brought to this site, I feel an obligation to counter posts like AN has been making. My fellow progressive should feel free to tell me to knock it off if I become too preachy, though.
October 18th, 2006 at 6:05 pm134
Actually, it was not John the Baptist, who was beheaded before Jesus’ crucifixion. There is debate among Christians if it was the Apostle John or some other John. Otherwise, you are correct – the guy was on an island, in exile, and probably hallucinating about the persecutions of his fellow Christians.
October 18th, 2006 at 6:08 pmPLC – your tolerance is amazing.
October 18th, 2006 at 6:19 pmWhen the trolls try to hijack, they are begging for the chops.
PLC – I read about moldy rye bread having some LSD effect as well….
October 18th, 2006 at 6:20 pmForeign Minister Hoshyar Zebari on Wednesday blamed American officials who ran Iraq before its own government took nominal control for bringing the country to the present state of chaos.
“Had our friends listened to us, we would not be where we are today,” Zebari said in an interview with The Associated Press.
Asked which friends he was referring to, Zebari said:
“The Americans, the Coalition (Provision Authority), the British. OK? Because they didn’t listen to us. The did exactly what they wanted to do. … Had they listened to us, we would have been someplace else (by now), really.”
October 18th, 2006 at 7:08 pmPatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC),
You are right. I am confusing my Johns.
October 18th, 2006 at 7:13 pmThe quagmire in Iraq makes Vietnam look like a wald in the park.
October 18th, 2006 at 7:15 pm“We certainly would not want to have the same kind of democracy as they have in Iraq.” Putin.
October 18th, 2006 at 7:16 pmon the verge of civil war are you kidding me. it is civil war. i’m sure it hurt there lyin lips to say that. what happened to ’sectarian violence.’
October 18th, 2006 at 7:30 pmRUCerious,
PLC is one of the most respectable posters here. S/he lives his faith, as evidenced by his/her posts. And yes, tolerance is one of those traits. I know I would be honored to call him/her a friend.
Would that all self-proclaimed “Christians” do the same, we would not be in the mess we’re in!
October 19th, 2006 at 12:15 amBnF,
October 19th, 2006 at 1:45 amThere is a range in relationships from family to familiarity. I consider you within the former (Zooey, Sharon, PLC, RUCerious, Uncle_Ho, SpudgeBoy, unbelievable, et.al.; do not take offence, you are equals.)
[...] In other words, 40 percent of Americans believe that violence in Iraq should be described as “Iraqis fighting against each other in a civil war.” Another 26 percent think there is a civil war in addition to an anti-U.S. insurgency. (ThinkProgress noted yesterday there are actually at least four different violent conflicts ongoing in Iraq.) Therefore, fully 2/3 of Americans believe there is a civil war in Iraq. [...]
October 19th, 2006 at 10:40 amI have tears in my eyes. At the beginning of these posts there was anger, blame, and quite a few posts blaming the current situation in Iraq on anyone in current power – if anyone truly is any longer. As I reached further posts and continued reading, I found acceptance and understanding of varying viewpoints and beliefs. Hooray! If we as normal citizens of any country can find this acceptance and understanding in this blog, I can only meditate upon the trust that leaders and those in power of all countries can, instead of leading, follow our lead.
October 19th, 2006 at 4:17 pmFIRST OF ALL THE IRAQ WAR IS ABOUT OIL. FOR ANYONE WHO DOES NOT BELEIVE ME GO AND READ SOME OF THE DEPT. OF ENRGYS STUDIES ON JUST HOW GOOD AND PLENTIFUL THE IRAQUI OIL IS AND HOW CHEAP IT IS TO EXTRACT. SO NOW THE FIGHTING IN IRAQ……..BUSH DOES NOT DECIDE ANYTHING…..HE IS THE SPOKEPSERSON FOR THE AMERICAN AGENDA OF MONOPOLIZING THE WORLDS OIL RESOURCES….. THE FIGHTING AND LACK OF UNIFICATION OF THE SHIA AND SUNNIS I BELEIVE ACTUALLY BENEFITS THE US. IF IRAQ WERE EVER TO UNITE…THE Y WOULD KICK US OUT!
October 19th, 2006 at 10:06 pmALL WE CARE ABOUT IS THE OIL AND CONTROLLING IT AND AS LONG AS IT FLOWS WE COULD CARE LESS ABOUT ANYTHING ELSE…..
READ ABOUT IRAQUI OIL!!
[...] In other words, 40 percent of Americans believe that violence in Iraq should be described as “Iraqis fighting against each other in a civil war.†Another 26 percent think there is a civil war in addition to an anti-U.S. insurgency. (ThinkProgress noted yesterday there are actually at least four different violent conflicts ongoing in Iraq.) Therefore, fully 2/3 of Americans believe there is a civil war in Iraq. [...]
October 19th, 2006 at 11:26 pmOh, for joy … even bush is now comparing Iraq to Vietnam.
Terrific, does this mean he’ll go AWOL for the last to years of his term like he did then?
… one can only hope …
October 20th, 2006 at 1:19 amtwo …opps
October 20th, 2006 at 1:48 amAmerican Strategy needs to be changed if they are to stop causing Iraq to get worse by the day. Meantime, Bush plays with tactics making him the modern equivalent of Nero.
October 25th, 2006 at 7:58 pm[...] These are all nice ideas in theory, but the problems affecting Iraqi society go much deeper and are far more serious that the administration wants to admit. Iraq is in a state of endemic chaos, marked by four raging internal conflicts, ethnic cleansing, and few significant advances in Iraq’s economic reconstruction. [...]
October 27th, 2006 at 8:19 pm[...] Four internal struggles tearing at Iraq… [...]
October 29th, 2006 at 11:19 am[...] Four internal struggles tearing at Iraq… [...]
October 29th, 2006 at 11:27 am[...] Fox News is right, Iraq is not simply a civil war. ThinkProgress noted in October that Iraq has devolved into at least four distinct violent conflicts. But that does not mean that one of those conflicts is not a civil war. Indeed, according to scholars surveyed by the New York Times, not only is Iraq in the midst of a civil war, the current level of bloodshed “already puts Iraq in the top ranks of the civil wars of the last half-century.” [...]
December 1st, 2006 at 3:11 pmThe British had a mandate in 1920 to “bring democracy to the Middle East”, according to their General Allenby. They drew straight lines to create the borders of Iraq — splitting many Arab tribes and the Kurds –, and of course, the British were in the oil rich area.
In 1932, they decided to leave — but the Middle East was not democratic. Will it take USA 12 years to get out of Iraq?
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