Active-duty troops speak out on Iraq.
By on Oct 23rd, 2006 at 2:30 pm
Active-duty troops speak out on Iraq.
“For the first time since the U.S. invasion of Iraq, active-duty members of the military are asking Members of Congress to end the U.S. occupation of Iraq and bring American soldiers home,” according to a press release. “Sixty-five active-duty members have sent Appeals for Redress to Members of Congress” under the Military Whistle-blower Protection Act.
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Why do our troops hate our troops?
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:34 pmI wish them all the best because they will be labeled traitors by Republicans and asked why they hate America, hate our troops, hate freedom, side with the terrorists, coddle Osama bin Laden, and bring comfort to our enemies.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:35 pmYou can bet that any day now we will see a repeal of the ‘Military Whistle-Blower Protection Act’.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:36 pmThese guys are now getting ready to be deployed to Anbar province.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:37 pmSomebody find out if these troops are Dems or GOP, anyone, please? Who planted this BS, the MSM?>
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:37 pmI guess it’s time for the “How very awkward” guy or as I like to call him, the “Bush cultist blown a gasket” guy.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:39 pmnot only are they speaking out, finally. folks the embedded jounalists are getting it on camera. rare for the gi’s since there is an unspoken policy to never say anything negative even though you know it’s wrong for fear of retaliation.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:40 pmThis is TERRIBLE for morale. Think of your comrades who have given a limb or a life for democracy.
They are like they were drafted of something.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:43 pmThis is TERRIBLE for morale. Think of the guys who have sacrificed a limb or a life.
They act like they were drafted into this or something like that.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:44 pmOuch!
You know it’s bad when the military is against itself!
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:45 pmThis is TERRIBLE for morale. Think of the guys who have sacrificed a limb or a life.
But you don’t think killing hundreds of thousands of innocent civilians is worse for morale? You are unethical.
They act like they were drafted into this or something like that.
Comment by RayFromGA — October 23, 2006 @ 2:44 pm
Considering it is an illegal occupation, they were.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:47 pmRayFromGA, when you first asked if the troops were Repubs or Dems, I thought you were kidding. Now, I’m not so sure. How sad.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:47 pmThis is TERRIBLE for morale.
Comment by RayFromGA
Are you over there RayFromGA? Can you tell us more about your personal experience with your fellow servicemen and your common morale?
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:48 pmRay,
You are free to go take their places…
Go pack.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:48 pmRay’s a troll…
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:50 pmTO: RayFromGA and PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC)
Wow: Trolls out in force……you sure got on that fast. SORRY …..NO CIGAR. These troops love our country and their fellow troops more than RayFromGA and PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) could ever understand.
Why aren’t you over there guys? They are shills and they are dead wrong. I saw the same comment on another site ” Why do our troops hate our troops?” It’s a talking point and I don’t believe that these posters are for real.
Nutshell………….It ain’t gonna work this time buds.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:50 pmRay, you mean like the guys who are speaking out? Also, why does it matter, their political affiliation, if any? They are there and seeing day in and day out that they are not winning the hearts and minds. When I was in I found that generally the troops were apolitical and they supported the president regardless of who he was.
I for one think it is great that they are speaking their minds. Many, Many media types have gotten various soldiers on camera saying the same thing. However, it is not usually looked kindly upon when you speak out against a mission or against the CIC. Which is why these generals usually wait till they are retired before they comment. These guys are going to catch hell for this. Using the new laws they will probably be charged with materially supporting the enemy and either tried for treason or they will dissapear and be tortured while being held indefinately, all for disagreeing with the dear leader.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:52 pmI am sure these guys will be labeled as traitors as soon as they are done defending our country. Right Repubs? Just like nearly 70% of America thinks this war is not going well at all and a majority thinks it was a wrong thing to do. How can a majority of Americans be against America or troops against troops?
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:52 pmI have never served in the military, but I’m sure neither have any of y’all. Hell, I never played in the NFL, but I can watch a good game and can comment on it, can’t I? I support the troops, and not just with my magnets!
America has never really lost a war, but the Democrats appear determined to change that – hell-bent on rejecting the world’s last best hope to stop a murderous Islam in its tracks.
The Democrats seem intent on bringing Islam to America – for the sake of “diversity” – and extinguishing freedom’s flame for another dark age. Apparently they agree that Islam is a religion of peace.
How many millions more must die because of such folly? If Democrats succeed in their hate campaign and prevail on Nov. 7, the road back will be arduous and costly. Islam rejoices at the prospect.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:52 pmLet’s find out if Ray from GA is a chickenhawk or just a chickenshit.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:54 pmPLC was being sarcastic “s”. Ya gotta know him….at least his TP persona.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:54 pmRay, I’m so glad your revision of history shows vietnam as a victory.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:55 pmGood for them. It is about time the military spoke up about this war. Bring our troops home now. You sould not trust the Old Bushies Admin. as for the ones that spoke up might be discipline for this. I hope not.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:55 pmThis is TERRIBLE for morale. Think of your comrades who have given a limb or a life for democracy.
They are like they were drafted of something.
Comment by RayFromGA — October 23, 2006 @ 2:43 pm
This is just a different way of saying the tired old “They are all volunteers” line of bullshit.
What is bad for morale and what these troops did NOT sign-up for is being forced to re-up and serve 3 & 4 tours in a country that we are illegally occupying.
It is quite obvious that RayFromGA has not served in the military. Just another stupid chicken hawk.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:56 pmOh, and by the way, Ray, US Army, served a year in Germany, 3rd Armored Division and a year in Nam, DaNang and Phu Bai.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:56 pmThat’s Phu Bai, like Phuoc Yeu
#8,9 RayFromGA
This is TERRIBLE for morale. Think of the guys who have sacrificed a limb or a life.
They act like they were drafted into this or something like that.
Or, to put it another way, it’s gotten so bad over there, that soldiers who volunteered for duty have decided it’s time to speak out, in spite of military regulations that forbid them from doing so in front of the cameras.
The helicopter pilot and crew who tried to stop the killing at My Lai and rescue as many of the civilians as they could ended up taking a lot of shit from fellow soldiers at the time, but now the Army says they were absolutely doing the right thing.
Even when you’re in uniform, there are times when you’ve got to gp against the flow because things are just plain wrong. It finally reached that point for these guys. If you think you’re being patriotic by saying they should keep quiet, then you’re clearly misguided.
It’s “terrible for morale”? There’s a difference between being bad for morale and ‘rocking the boat’. This has nothing to do with morale. It couldn’t hurt morale any more than the reality on the ground. “Bad for morale” is just another made-up excuse right-wingers use to justify staying the course.
October 23rd, 2006 at 2:59 pmRay,
You are free to go take their places…
Go pack.
Comment by unbelievable
Ahh yes, the classic liberal crutch: “if you support the war, why don’t you fight it?”
Don’t worry Ray, even if you were to volunteer for the military tomorrow and Iraq the next day, it wouldn’t be enough for people like unbelievable.
As I have sadly found out through my dealings with posters on this blog, once they acknowledge (if ever) that you have served in Iraq, their next line of defense is to attack you for not going enough times.
Never ceases to amaze.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:01 pmAmerica has never really lost a war, but the Democrats appear determined to change that – hell-bent on rejecting the world’s last best hope to stop a murderous Islam in its tracks.
Comment by RayFromGA
I guess when you erase the memory of Vietnam from your head you can say this and also forget the same arguement was used for that war except replacing Islam with Communist.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:02 pms,
What PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) said what we call sarcasm. PLC is definitely not in the same boat as RayFromGA. Which would be a sinking ship.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:02 pmI would think being lied into war is worse than a draft Ray.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:03 pmDo you like being lied too?
Sorry to pee in the punchbowl, but Nancy Pelosi just announced that she won’t impeach Bush. Nothing like killing voter turnout two weeks before an election!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:03 pmI would watch for the Military Commissions Act to be used to trump the Military Whistle-blower Protection Act. These active-duty soldiers are at risk for being declared unlawful enemy combatants and/or traitors.
Let’s keep track of the developments.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:04 pmHAHA the dumbest comment ever:
“RayFromGA I support the troops, and not just with my magnets”
No but you support the chinese troops with those magnets.
How much of that $2.00 you spent on that magnet went to the troops?
Most likely not a cent, someone making a fortune off someone elses stupidty.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:04 pmI have never served in the military,
We knew.
but I’m sure neither have any of y’all.
And you’d be wrong, as usual.
Hell, I never played in the NFL, but I can watch a good game and can comment on it, can’t I?
But no one dies on football Sunday, Ray. Bad analogy.
America has never really lost a war, but the Democrats appear determined to change that – hell-bent on rejecting the world’s last best hope to stop a murderous Islam in its tracks.
We lost Vietnam Ray. Accept it. And we are losing Iraq, a war we told you socipaths on the right that yu shouldn’t enter into.
You’ve lost this one all on your own. But, I know, to you, it’s all about always being right. Grow up, what are you 12?
The Democrats seem intent on bringing Islam to America – for the sake of “diversity†– and extinguishing freedom’s flame for another dark age. Apparently they agree that Islam is a religion of peace.
Replace Islam with Christianity and America to The Middle East and you’ve just described yourself.
How many millions more must die because of such folly?
Your side is the ones killing people!
Bush has killed more Americans than Osama. Yet you support him, like a blind fool.
If Democrats succeed in their hate campaign and prevail on Nov. 7, the road back will be arduous and costly. Islam rejoices at the prospect.
Comment by RayFromGA — October 23, 2006 @ 2:52 pm
Ray, not only are you ignorant, but you’re delusional.
Not only will we defend the country, but we will actually make it safer.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:05 pm16 s
Once again I am reminded to include my ***sarcasm off*** ending to posts like #1. So, in pennance, I comment to RayfromGA:
I have never served in the military either, but I sure have been an American for a long time. America has never STARTED a war preemptively but the NeoCons sure were hell-bent on rejecting our long tradition of using military force as a last resort and focusing our military force, when needed, directly on the source of the threat.
The NeoCons are intent on using religion, patriotism, and the lives of American service personnel to advance their political and economoic agenda, benefiting themselves in the guise of “protecting” us.
How many millions more must die because of such folly? If NeoCons continue succeed in their selfish campaign and prevail on Nov. 7, the road back will be even more arduous and costly than it already is. Terrorists have already changed the face of our nation and they would rejoice and changing its whole body. We must not let them.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:05 pmAs if the bloggers here have any control over how many times one is sent to Iraq..it is the Bush policy that keeps them there, not bloggers.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:06 pmThat would be plenty Mark+Glesne.
Also, we know that you have not served and are a lying sack of crap. Here is proof.
Nobody likes being in a war zones. Espicially those in the service in those warzones.
Unless you are running the PX in the Green Zone.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:06 pmdlet & SpudgeBoy
Thank you for the back-up.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:08 pm#19
America has never really lost a war, but the Democrats appear determined to change that – hell-bent on rejecting the world’s last best hope to stop a murderous Islam in its tracks.
This isn’t a spectator sport, Ray. There are a lot of things that are more important than “winning” or “losing”. Sometimes, under the worst of circumstances, we get stuck with a president who does something really screwed up with our troops. If this ends up being counted as a “loss” for the team, blame the guy who went into it without a plan. If he’d actually listened to anyone who knew what to expect, he’d have known it was destined for failure. Just because he got us stuck in it doesn’t mean we have to stick it out forever waiting for a “victory” that just ain’t gonna happen. Be real!
If it’s any consolation, Ray, why don’t you chalk up the defeat of Saddam’s army as a victory for us and leave it at that. We’re not fighting a war over there anymore. We’re getting our troops killed in the middle of a civil war. And, if you think we’re fighting the war on terror there, do you really think that a “victory” in Iraq, whatever that might mean, would end the war on terror? All we’re doing there is fanning the flames.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:10 pmHi Mark!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:10 pmTell us all again, how many insurgents you met that told you that if you weren’t there, they’d be a packin over here?
This is how the war machine can be halted, by having soldiers from within both speak out and refuse to participate in the military effort to continue to occupy Iraq. At his speech that he gave at the Veterans for Peace convention in Seattle last August, Lt. Watada remnded those in the military that they have the power to stop an illegal and immoral war from continuing by informing them “that to stop an illegal and unjust war, the soldiers can choose to stop fighting it.”
He continued by saying “Now it is not an easy task for the soldier. For he or she must be aware that they are being used for ill-gain. They must hold themselves responsible for individual action. They must remember duty to the Constitution and the people supersedes the ideologies of their leadership. The soldier must be willing to face ostracism by their peers, worry over the survival of their families, and of course the loss of personal freedom. They must know that resising an authoritarian government at home is equally important to fighting a foreign aggressor on the battlefield. Finally, those wearing the uniform must know beyond the shadow of a doubt that by refusing immoral and illegal orders they will be supported by the people not with mere words but by action.”
The lieutenant acknowledges that “The American soldier must rise above the socialization that tells them authority should always be obeyed without question. Rank should be respected but never blindly obeyed. Awareness of the history of atrocities and destruction committed in the name of America- either through direct military intervention or by proxy war- is crucial. They must realize that this is a war not out of self-defense but by choice, for profit and imperialistic domination. WMD, ties to Al Qaeda, and ties to 9/11 never existed and never will.”
The lieutenant recalls a literary figure: “Mark Twain once remarked, ‘Each man must for himself alone decide what is right and what is wrong, which course is patriotic and which isn’t. You cannot shirk this and be a man. To decide against your conviction is to be an unqualified traitor, both to yourself and to your country…’ By this, each and every American soldier, marine, airman, and sailor is responsible for their choices and their actions. The freedom to choose is only one that we can deny ourselves.”
He reminds those in the military that “The oath that we take swears allegiance not to one man but to a document of principles and laws designed to protect the people. Enlisting in the military does not relinquish one’s right to seek the truth- neither does it excuse one from rational thought to distinguish between right and wrong, ‘I was only following orders’ is never an excuse.”
Powerful and compelling words which led myself and other veterans to give the lieutenant at least a half dozen standing ovations for giving that speech at the VFP convention. The hope is that his words will lend inspiration to those who are now speaking out and saying NO to this illegal war machine in Iraq.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:11 pmAhh yes, the classic liberal crutch: “if you support the war, why don’t you fight it?â€
Crutch? No, Jesus is a crutch. What I said was a fact.
Don’t worry Ray, even if you were to volunteer for the military tomorrow and Iraq the next day, it wouldn’t be enough for people like unbelievable.
If you’re trying to make a career change to being a psychic, you should forget it. You suck at it.
I come from a military family. The war in Iraq was and is a mistake, no matter how much it doesn’t sit well with you keyboard warriors.
As I have sadly found out through my dealings with posters on this blog, once they acknowledge (if ever) that you have served in Iraq, their next line of defense is to attack you for not going enough times.
That’s not what happened, Mark. You were expressing an expert option on what it’s like to serve multiple duties, and when it turned out that you yourself hadn’t served more than one term (if at all), you were called out for being unable to comment as someone speaking from personal experience. That was all that happened.
But, go ahead and try to play the victim here. Poor little Mark. Someone change his diaper, please…
Never ceases to amaze.
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:01 pm
I’ll tell you what never ceases to amaze me – your paranoia, hatred and immaturity.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:11 pmsaying “if you support the troops – suit up” makes a LOT more sense
than “fight over there, so we do not have to fight them over here”
Sure, if you are able bodied and think this is a just war – a struggle of civilizations – wwIII as many right wingers believe, then there is truth in calling you on your hypocracy. Makes perfect sense to me, but then again applying bravery to one’s convictions is not a repug forte is it?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:12 pmI am reminded of the soldier in Fahrenheit 911 who, when asked if he was concerned about punishment for speaking out, replied something along the lines “what are they going to do? send me here?”
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:13 pmIsn’t every tired of hearing the total BS like “well they should have known what they were getting into when they volunteered”. They volunteered to defend this country expecting that the leadership would value their lives and not put them in harm’s way unless absolutely necessary. Obviously, this is not the case in Iraq. Otherwise, why would we have to wait till after the election before anything is done or announced by the current administration regarding new tactics for Iraq.
However, that being said why doesn’t everyone get real. The volunteer soldier of today is more akin to a mercenary than a patriot. I am not saying there aren’t patriots in the military but they are not in the majority. The majority of soldiers signup to get job training, an education or better wages than they could have gotten elsewhere. It is a regressive system that results in the military burden being carried by the those with the least education and/or earning capacity.
Further, the current “volunteer” army makes it too easy for our leaders to go into wars because they are not personally invested. We need compulsary military service for all citizens within a certain age range without any exceptions other than physical or mental incapacity. I am quite confident our leaders would be alot more careful about putting our soldiers in harm’s way if they knew their own children or grand children would be included.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:14 pmAs if the bloggers here have any control over how many times one is sent to Iraq..it is the Bush policy that keeps them there, not bloggers.
Comment by Dog_named_Boo
You’re preaching to the choir on that one, dog.
I never said bloggers control how many times we go over. I made reference to previous conversations I have had with TP commenters in which upon finding out that I have served in Iraq, proceeded to tell me I still couldn’t serve as any sort of voice from the ground because I hadn’t gone back for a third or fourth tour.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:14 pm#27 Mark Glesne
As I have sadly found out through my dealings with posters on this blog, once they acknowledge (if ever) that you have served in Iraq, their next line of defense is to attack you for not going enough times.
Stop it, I’m getting misty eyed. If it’s so disheartening, Mark, maybe you should just keep your propaganda to yourself.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:14 pmHell, I support the troops, but I NEVER said I support this war or this huge, colossal waste of money! I never said stay the corpse.
I think y’all are the ones brainwashed. You listed to Randy Rodes on Air America all day and you only hear a one sided, slanted view of the president. It’s hate, hate, hate.
You need to try and support the president in this time of war and pray that our country comes through it.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:14 pm> Awkward!!!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:16 pmyou were called out for being unable to comment as someone speaking from personal experience. That was all that happened.
Comment by unbelievable
Oooh, I see. Kind of like people commenting on the war in Iraq… even though they’ve never been.
Gotcha!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:17 pmAnd for the record, I absolutely believe people who haven’t served in Iraq should be able to comment on the war without having to actually serve on the ground. I believe this for both sides.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:18 pmproceeded to tell me I still couldn’t serve as any sort of voice from the ground because I hadn’t gone back for a third or fourth tour.
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:14 pm
Stop lying Mark. They actually said that you couldn’t speak to what it was like to have served multiple tours. And they were correct.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:19 pmThe Bush war on Iraq is just neo-colonial imperial aggression. It is all war crimes and terror used by Bush and Blair to set up a puppet government in Iraq to allow the US military to establish permanent bases and to allow US corporations to steal Iraqi oil.
Actually, the USA has been engaged in imperialism, off and on, for one hundred and eight years now, since 1898, when we took over Cuba, the Philippines and Puerto Rico from the Spanish crown. We had to slaughter hundreds of thousands of Philippines residents to establishment our imperial government there: it lasted offically until 1946, and lingered on with US bases there used to support our war on Vietnam in the 1960s and 1970s. Read a little history folks, and not just the sanitized USA version, either. You may want to check out my history of USA imperialism at my web site, http://www.bottlebrushpress.com. Go to alternative media link and scroll down…
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:19 pmCheers.
#45 M3Vega
Isn’t every tired of hearing the total BS like “well they should have known what they were getting into when they volunteeredâ€.
Favorite chickenhawk response every time a soldier has a legitimate gripe about this war:
“Well you signed the contract…”
Under their breath:
“…sucker!”
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:20 pmHell, Ray. I supported the previous Presidents’ war on drugs, but consuming all I could get to keep it out of the hands of the children.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:20 pmBut I just can’t seem to get behind this war on terror thing. It keeps going out every time I light it.
The other day Chris Matthews was interviewing John McCain and asked the audience at Columbia University who was planning on joining the military. A section of around 20 students stood up. They were wearing ROTC sweatshirts and t-shirts. Chris said that he knew they were going, so rephrased his question. He asked how many people supported the war. All the young republicans stood up and cheer and clapped. Chris then asked of those people how many were going to join the military, to which the answer was not too damn many. Chris then asked why and he got all of the standard exuses we here in these blogs.
This was a slap in the face to all of the republicans that stood up cheering and clapping as it showed that they like people dying for their cause, but aren’t willing to give their own lives for it.
Watch it at Crooks and Liars
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/10/20/whats-st-mccains-iraq-war-plan-again/
Classic
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:20 pmYo, Mark, what did you do with all the flowers and candy you were showered with?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:21 pmMark+Glense,
Your comments here, as well as your lame blog already shows what a hateful biggot you are. Killing in the name of “Jesus the Profit/Prophet of War”. You’re the worst kind..
You’re a sick mofo who would love 30 tours of duty, as long as your killing icky brown people, or icky people who don’t believe in your whacky ass outdated religion.
You should go to redtate, or RaptureWatch, you’ll be more welcome there. but alas you friggen evangelicals never give up, until we put a bullet in your heads.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:22 pmIs it me? Or are RayfromGA’a comments VERY UNCOMFORTABLE…(does he not know he’s a chickenhawk?)
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:22 pmYou had conversations with a few people here and now you are trying to color everyone with the same projectionist paint brush. You are doing what you accuse them of.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:23 pmHell, I support the troops, but I NEVER said I support this war or this huge, colossal waste of money! I never said stay the corpse.
By criticizing troop who speak out, you are NOT supporting them Ray.
I think y’all are the ones brainwashed. You listed to Randy Rodes on Air America all day and you only hear a one sided, slanted view of the president. It’s hate, hate, hate.
Yes, all 67% of this country gets together and listens to a radio show. Don’t be ridiculous. It’s your side that needs to be told what to think. We all think for ourselves. The fact that we’ve all come to teh same conclusion is proof that reality has a liberal bias…
You need to try and support the president in this time of war and pray that our country comes through it.
Comment by RayFromGA — October 23, 2006 @ 3:14 pm
Support a criminal who is killing our troops Ray? That’s not supporting them.
And praying is as useless as wishing on a four leaf clover, Ray. If you want change you need knowledge and action – not hopes and dreams in invisible Sky Daddies. Sheesh.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:23 pmStop lying Mark. They actually said that you couldn’t speak to what it was like to have served multiple tours. And they were correct.
Comment by unbelievable
Then I guess you be making no more judgements about a war you have only witnessed from the couch in your living room? (your logic, not mine)
And I wasn’t attempting to speak on behalf of multiple-tour serving troops. I was speaking to the fact that our military – as a whole – is engaged in a multiple tours and is sustaining quite well.
Trust me, I’ve served with men and women on their second and third tours. Hell, I served with a Marine Sgt. who was on his 4th (one to OEF and three to OIF) and he was as motivated as ever.
War often sucks. But we can handle it. If I get the call to go again, I will be able to handle it.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:24 pmYou need to try and support the president in this time of war and pray that our country comes through it.
Comment by RayFromGA
I do hope this country does make it throught this presidency. We already have lost so much. World prestige, honor, habeus corpus, thousands of our troops o death and injury, balanced budget, etc.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:25 pmOooh, I see. Kind of like people commenting on the war in Iraq… even though they’ve never been.
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:17 pm
We’re not commenting on how the ground war is fought, Mark, we’re commenting on actions of the arm chair warrior who started this mess – who has zero combat experience himself. Not very good for a Commander in Chief to be a draft dodger…
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:26 pmFor those of you who may doubt what a real soldier has to say about the war on terror read this: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/.
This is definitely a must read!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:26 pmHey, I don’t care what you think of me. Y’all can call me chickenhawk (whatever that is), chicken heart, chicken of the sea, the only thing you can’t call me is POOR. THat’s why I’m not going to Iraq, I can make tons of money here in the good ol’ US of A.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:27 pmTo all who have read my posts and have felt the need to be highly critical of my opinions:
YOUR MOMMA!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:28 pmCommander in Chief to be a draft dodger…
Comment by unbelievable
Clinton?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:28 pmI don’t support liars.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:29 pmHell, I support the troops, but I NEVER said I support this war or this huge, colossal waste of money! …..You need to try and support the president in this time of war and pray that our country comes through it.
Comment by RayFromGA
If you support the President, then you are supporting him in HIS war and HIS use of this war to advance HIS powers. I refuse to support Bush in this immoral action and not only do I pray that our country gets through it, I am trying to convince people to vote against the political machine that not only started this war but continues it.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:29 pmYou forget that you live in a debtor nation and the true value of your dollar is zero.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:30 pmTHat’s why I’m not going to Iraq, I can make tons of money here in the good ol’ US of A.
Comment by RayFromGA
Fine example of a Reagan Republican from the “me” generation.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:31 pmTHat’s why I’m not going to Iraq, I can make tons of money here in the good ol’ US of A.
Comment by RayFromGA
YOUR MOMMA!
Comment by RayFromGA
Now you are beginning to sound like an idiot.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:33 pmThen I guess you be making no more judgements about a war you have only witnessed from the couch in your living room? (your logic, not mine)
No Mark, that was NOT my logic. It was you twisting what I said.
My logic is that you were speaking as an expert when you were not. I have never claimed to be an expert. There’s the difference.
And I wasn’t attempting to speak on behalf of multiple-tour serving troops. I was speaking to the fact that our military – as a whole – is engaged in a multiple tours and is sustaining quite well.
Sustaining quite well? Were you recently shot in the head?
Trust me, I’ve served with men and women on their second and third tours. Hell, I served with a Marine Sgt. who was on his 4th (one to OEF and three to OIF) and he was as motivated as ever.
You neocons don’t get that three or four people do not represent a majority of thousands. Why is that so difficult?
War often sucks. But we can handle it. If I get the call to go again, I will be able to handle it.
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:24 pm
Why wait for the call? Why not volunteer to replace someone who doesn’t want to be there – especially if you all think it’s so bad for morale?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:33 pm#48 Ray from GA
You need to try and support the president in this time of war and pray that our country comes through it.
If I were a praying man, I’d pray for the lying, murdering, moron in the White House to get removed from there immediately, one way or another. But, if so, he’d have to be shackled to Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rove, and a couple dozen other maniacal traitors to make it worthwhile.
Bush created the mess. You can’t leave it up to him to fix it.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:33 pmOpinions are only opinions and nothing to get worked up over. I think Fords Suck. So what?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:34 pm#68 Mark Bushies was AWOL from the service. Cheney had what 5 deferments.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:35 pmlol, thanks Mark!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:35 pmClinton?
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:28 pm
No, Bush – the one who started this occupation we’ve been discussing. Try to pay attention. Clinton hasn’t been in office since January 2001. Odd how you’d think he was still president though.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:36 pmTo all who have read my posts and have felt the need to be highly critical of my opinions: YOUR MOMMA! Comment by RayFromGA
I surrender, now. Your wisdom and debating skills have now thoroughly won me over to your way of thinking: NOT! (That’s an even older juvenile come-back than yours!)
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:37 pmNow you are beginning to sound like an idiot.
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:33 pm
Beginning to?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:37 pmWhy wait for the call? Why not volunteer to replace someone who doesn’t want to be there – especially if you all think it’s so bad for morale?
Comment by unbelievable
Haha, because I just got back from doing just that.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:37 pmNo, Bush – the one who started this occupation we’ve been discussing. Try to pay attention. Clinton hasn’t been in office since January 2001. Odd how you’d think he was still president though.
Comment by unbelievable
Oh, fhew! Thanks for explaining that to me.
Now, how is becoming a fighter pilot (one of the most skilled professions in the military) who could be called to Vietnam at any time dodging the draft?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:38 pm#68 Mark Bushies was AWOL from the service. Cheney had what 5 deferments.
Comment by Mary Poplins
Haha, still believing that fake story I see.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:40 pmHaha, because I just got back from doing just that.
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:37 pm
Apparently, you can do it again. What’s stopping you?
Absurd neocon excuse in 3…2….1….
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:40 pm#68
Commander in Chief to be a draft dodger…
Comment by unbelievable
Clinton?
Yeah, that’s right. Clinton dodged the draft by accepting a dumb old Rhodes scholarship. What a cheap trick. Not like Cheney who used school for the first four deferments and finally had to get Lynn knocked up for the fifth one. That had to be rough.
Anyway, Bush was absolutely NOT a draft dodger.
He was a deserter.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:41 pmWars are often fomented. If thats your opinion, above, fine, I can deal with it. But don’t you find it disconcerting that you are going into a battle built upon lies and plans made as far back as 1998 and quite possibly before then?
And if this war, regime change for a puppet, Yes Saddam was a puppet, has been planned before 9/11 then you can see that you are not going to Iraq because of terrorists but a group of think-tank democratic experimentalists?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:41 pmYou need to try and support the president in this time of war and pray that our country comes through it.
Comment by RayFromGA — October 23, 2006 @ 3:14 pm
You mean like the GOP supported Clinton when he went into Bosnia?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:41 pmSo you want to impeach Bush?
They’re just the small percentile of troops that can’t comprehend the common goal and prime objective of the war. As a prior Active Duty Marine Officer, I’m embarrased by the 65 members’ plea to withdraw from this war. Bush has reiterated that this would be a tough war, but we will win.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:42 pmNow, how is becoming a fighter pilot (one of the most skilled professions in the military) who could be called to Vietnam at any time dodging the draft?
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:38 pm
Fighter pilot?
You really do live in fairytaleland, don’t you.
Excuse me, I can’t type and laugh this hard at the same time….
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:42 pmThe plane Bush trained on was being phased out and would never see action in Vietnam, not to mention George checked the box that said he was not willing, as a guardsmen, to be sent overseas.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:43 pmApparently, you can do it again. What’s stopping you?
Comment by unbelievable
Haha!! Thank you for proving my point (see #27).
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:44 pmBush has reiterated that this would be a tough war, but we will win.
Comment by Daryll — October 23, 2006 @ 3:42 pm
And what if we don’t Daryll? WIll you implode? Hopefully?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:45 pmThose of you suggesting that the troops shouldn’t question the war or complain about it publicly are wrong. They are probably the only one’s qualified to critique what’s going on there. I would take one soldiers opinion of the war he’s fighting in than a hundred armchair generals or even real generals, and especially former and current administration lackeys who couldn’t tell the truth if they wanted to and frequently don’t even want to. It’s past time we heard from the troops. They’re all volunteers, but they signed on to defend the country from its enemies. You can debate a lot of things about the Iraq war, why it’s being fought and what the objectives are, but you can’t make me believe that we’re fighting it to defend the United States of America from Iraq or terrorists. That’s just plain wrong, and if the soldiers over there want to express their views, no matter what they are, they shouldn’t be attacked for it. If you disagree with what they’re saying, that’s cool, but don’t get in anyones face about the fact that they’re speaking out.
That’s one of the reasons the the military exists: to make sure everyone can express their views. That includes the soldiers themselves.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:45 pmGeorge was a quitter, he got into the Champagne unit with other notables, such as Cowboys team players, and signed up for a six year contract. George however bailed out on his promise after 4 years, with help from daddy [Harvard Alumni] so he could attend B-school. George never fulfilled his contract with America…
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:45 pmFighter pilot?
Comment by unbelievable
Umm, yes. Hey, I have a buddy up in Washington state who is in the air national guard – and not on a track to go to Iraq.
Feel free to call him up and explain to him that he’s not serving his country in a time of war… just like Bush.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:46 pm#84 – the documents were fake, the story was not.
#55, RUCerious, LOL, I’m with you on that one!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:47 pmIraq had nothing to do with 9/11. Besides the Iraq operation was one of Peace not War. How and when did it become war?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:48 pm#84 – the documents were fake, the story was not.
Comment by JaneESchneider
If it’s good enough for Dan Rather, it’s good enough for me! Haha.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:49 pmThere’s still a $10,000 award from Doonesbury for anyone that can positively place GW in the LA Guard when he says he was there. There haven’t been any takers.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:50 pmWho cares if a commenter on this blog has served in Iraq or not? We all have an equal right to speak our mind. It seems much more interesting that these troops, who ARE actively serving in Iraq, are asking for an end to the occupation. They, too, have a right to speak and it just shows how wrong this war has become when the troops on the ground are against “staying the course.”
Funny how the Repulicrooks have no recourse for the views of those on the ground. God bless our troops and all they do to protect our Constitution, despite the attempts of Bush & Co. to gut it. Maybe we should listen to them, for a change.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:51 pmBARFLY
I saw you post a few comments on here earlier. How did that call to my unit work out for you? I’m honestly curious what you were able to “find out”!!
=)
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:51 pmI hate to inform everybody here but, Mark Glesne is really… Haha! SPEED RACER!!! Everyone cheer. We have a celebrity among us!
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:51 pm#94 Will
Those of you suggesting that the troops shouldn’t question the war or complain about it publicly are wrong. They are probably the only one’s qualified to critique what’s going on there.
And on top of that, every time a retired general speaks out and criticizes the way that Bush or Rumsfeld is handling this, he gets attacked from the right for waiting until he was out before saying anything. In most cases, he probably did say something directly to Rumsfeld while he was still in and was told to shut up or take early retirement.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:52 pmI can honestly say that I have not been to Iraq. But I do know many people who have and all but one do nto want to go back. The one who does want to go back has been trying very hard to volunteer, and get reassigned to another unit, however it is not quite so easy. That being said, one of those who does nto want to go back is this guys son, who signed for an active duty tour for a guarantee not to go back to Iraq rather than taking his chances with his reserve unit which is being sent back.
The guy who wants to return was there in late ‘03 and ‘04. He thinks that it is not so bad over there, but then tells stories of being ambushed every single day. So it’s nto so bad if people try to kill you everyday? And in all fairness to him, the news is getting worse almost daily so his experience in ‘04 is vastly different from guys there now. That being said, he also believe we are there to avenge 911 because that is what he has gleaned from listening to the president, so no matter what we have to stay there and punish OBL. Seriously this is what he thinks.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:53 pmI have a buddy up in Washington state who is in the air national guard – and not on a track to go to Iraq.
Feel free to call him up and explain to him that he’s not serving his country in a time of war… just like Bush.
Comment by Mark+Glesne
Is there a draft? Is your buddy’s dad a US senator? What connection do you see?
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:53 pmWhen he gets a free pass from daddy to bail out of his contract I will.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:53 pmMark+Glesne: interesting comment on Bush & Cheney’s service. Of course, they were both shown to be cowards. I bet Bush peed his pants when he had to show up for National Guard duty.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:53 pmBush is to stupid to be a fighter pilot.
He was to busy helping a politican with his campaign in Ga. to worry about the National Guard. Lets face it Old Bush is a spilled little brat that every body has to clean up his messes.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:54 pmThey’re just the small percentile of troops that can’t comprehend the common goal and prime objective of the war. As a prior Active Duty Marine Officer, I’m embarrased by the 65 members’ plea to withdraw from this war. Bush has reiterated that this would be a tough war, but we will win.
Comment by Daryll
OK, Daryll, exactly what are the “common goal and prime objective of the war” since our Commander In Chief has never explained it satisfactorily to the American people?
As an American, I am proud that there are military personnel who are willing to put themselves in a potentially difficult place in order to express their opposition to a U.S. policy and action. Bush only began calling this a “tough war” once the opposition to it got tough on HIM.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:54 pmDarrly, Please explain how we will win a civil war in Iraq? Whose side are we on (Sunni, Shia, or Kurd)? What are our military goals? How will we know when they have been achieved? What is the purpose for our country’s great expenditure of capital and lives? What do we get in return?
So far it looks like we have upset the balance of power in that region, created a recruiting boom for our enemies and taken our eye off of the real goal of decapitating Al Queda. They SOB’s who actually attacked us. We are so distracted that we cannot react forcefully to the increasing threats from the other supposed members of the axis of evil.
With leadership like we have now who needs enemies.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:55 pmI saw you post a few comments on here earlier. How did that call to my unit work out for you? I’m honestly curious what you were able to “find outâ€!!
=)
Comment by Mark+Glesne
Thanks for posting them. Now we know there is at least one thing you haven’t lied about . . .
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:55 pmI bet Bush peed his pants when he had to show up for National Guard duty.
Comment by And+You+Thought+REAGAN+Was+Stupid
Perhaps Dan Rather could provide a photo of this incident of which you speak.
=)
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:56 pmIf you voted for Bush in 2004 you voted for more war.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:57 pmIf you met the requirements you should have served.
There is no draft.
There is a war being lost.
#96 Mark Glesne
Umm, yes. Hey, I have a buddy up in Washington state who is in the air national guard – and not on a track to go to Iraq.
Feel free to call him up and explain to him that he’s not serving his country in a time of war… just like Bush.
Did he sign up while there was a draft and did his daddy fix it so he could jump ahead of everyone else waiting in line to join the National Guard? That’s what Bush did. It’s a fact that never was disputed by Bush or his toadies. And it doesn’t rely on a document that has yet to be proven a forgery, either.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:57 pmHaha!! Thank you for proving my point (see #27).
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:44 pm
No I’m not. I’m saying that if you love it so much, and are upset by the troops who don’t, then why don’t you replace them instead of bitching about them being upset?
You aren’t very bright are you Mark?
I have a Special Ed girl in one of my classes who catches on faster than you do.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:58 pmMark + Glesne, the secretary who actually typed the documents said that the dosuments presnted to her were accurate in their content but were not the documents she typed. Also only the naive have it in their mind that the national guard in the vietnam era is anything like the guard today. Bush was trained to fly planes that were obsolete and out of service for the active duty. It would be similar to a pilot being trained to fly a P-51 Mustang today and then say he is/was ready for Iraq. The guard back then was used as a means to avoid service, not as a means to serve.
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:58 pmOh Jeebus, that means Sprital and Chim-Chim, and that slut trixi are on their way!! =]
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:59 pmNaw I think that was Billy Carter and Billy Beer =)
October 23rd, 2006 at 3:59 pmFreakin’ Daryll, sheesh.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:00 pmThis was written by Kevin Tillman, brother of Pat Tillman, the Arizona Cardinals defensive back that gave up a multi-million dollar contract to enlist in the Army (with brother Kevin) because they believed in doing the right thing and serving their country. The only thing they didn’t know at the time was that their reasons for enlisting were based on lies. Please read Kevin’s letter here: http://www.truthdig.com/report/item/200601019_after_pats_birthday/.
Maybe you should read it too Mark Glesne and RayfromGA (if you can tear yourself away from counting all your money made right here in the good ol’ U.S. of A.)
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:00 pmFeel free to call him up and explain to him that he’s not serving his country in a time of war… just like Bush.
Comment by Mark+Glesne — October 23, 2006 @ 3:46 pm
Considering I used to be enganged to an actually Navy pilot who served in the First Gulf War and is likely engaged in this one, I’d be happy to explain to your friend that he isn’t in combat in Iraq (which was exactly my point). What’s his number?
You have a blog? Oh, so you’re just here to advertize. Figures.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:02 pmWill at #94
Well said. The soldiers who spoke out in the book Mission Rejected- U.S. Soldiers Who Say NO to Iraq by Peter Laufer back up your contention. My comments at #41 regarding Lt. Watada’s speech at the Veterans for Peace convention last August in Seattle are also relevant regarding your comments that you have put forth.
Keep thinking independently.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:02 pmMark Glesne, aren’t you relieved that Nancy Pelosi has announced that she won’t attempt to impeach the President? Although it would be good for the country, I think it’s better if we fix the messes first; by ‘08, after all the investigations will have fully exposed the depths of conservative corruption, an impeachment will be unnessary. Republicans will be lame-ducks for the rest of the term.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:04 pmI’ll take a stab at it; You arm all three sides, and make money off the arms sales, and then you lie your ass off. When one side seems destined to win you take their side and claim it was your plan all along!
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:04 pmHey glesne, how many “fake” documents did your dumb ass president and his cabal use to justify the war? Chalabi, Curveball, Iraqi National Congress, any of that ring a bell.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:05 pm#125 Henry? Henry Kissinger? Is that you?
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:09 pmLets think about this, the originals were copied unto microfiche, microfiche alas also became outdatted, now they have been digitally scanned. So much for fonts….Now what we have is a digitized copy of an old typed out piece of paper..how much easier could it be to hack? =)
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:10 pm“Persecution: How Liberals are Waging War Against Christianityâ€
Mark thinks he’s a victim. It makes him feel better about being a coward who kills innocent people and loves it.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:11 pmHush your exposing our mendastic mentality!!=)
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:11 pmPatrioticLiberalChristian, to instill democracy, and to stablize their government. Instead of the continuing sectarian violence, why not have a state summit where each tribe can voice their griefs and opinions therefore a solution can be made. We will have to play a part in informing these individuals that we don’t want to rule or overtake their country, but we want everyone to be able to express themselves and voice their opinions in their own way. That’s democracy. We may have to bargain and plea to bring them together, but I know this can be accomplished.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:13 pmBush’s dash to the Guard was a backdoor out of having to do the dangerous work of soldiering.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:17 pmI had a high school classmate who went into the guard in ‘68 thinking he was ducking duty, haha.
My second morning in country at Cam Ranh I ran into him as I was leaving for Phu Bai. He was crying a river about how he got screwed when they activated his unit. He survived, and at least he put in his year.
More than can be said for some pilot who never reported to his Alabama duty station.
Steve, if you’re reading this, buck up buddy!
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:17 pm
Could this be KRove’s ‘October Surprise’?
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:18 pmBoo Dog – Sound like freedom on the jackboot march to me!
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:20 pmIt’s really too bad that so many people with good intentions have been fooled by such propaganda.
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — October 23, 2006 @ 4:14 pm
That’s one downside of ‘faith’… They are believing rather than evaluating evidence. Easier, sure – but the consequences for being wrong are catastrophic.
If there were a god of some variety, I can’t imagine it would want whatthe Christians claim it wants. That would be like having children and then never interacting with them, while constantly torturing them to prove that they love you. We give people medication and take away their kids for less than that…
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:21 pmInstead of the continuing sectarian violence, why not have a state summit where each tribe can voice their griefs and opinions therefore a solution can be made. -Darryl
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:23 pmAnd Daryll, you can provide the booze and the Christian hymns for musical entertainment.
Daryll responded to my question about the goals and objectives of the war in Iraq:
to instill democracy, and to stablize their government
When did BushCo make that the purpose of the attack on Iraq? They compaigned with “no nation-building” as a theme. You don’t “instill” democracy on theocratic-oriented, tribal cultures and a contained Hussein overseen by the U.N. was keeping things as stable as they could have been.
Instead of the continuing sectarian violence, why not have a state summit where each tribe can voice their griefs and opinions therefore a solution can be made.
Too late for that – they’ve got guns. knives, and explosive devises doing their talking now. Maybe, if we had done this early in the war there might have been some success.
We will have to play a part in informing these individuals that we don’t want to rule or overtake their country,
With no end to the occupation by the U.S., it’s a bit difficult to see this. Actions speak louder than words.
but we want everyone to be able to express themselves and voice their opinions in their own way. That’s democracy.
Except if you’re an American in opposition to the Bush Administration – then you must be careful what you say.
We may have to bargain and plea to bring them together, but I know this can be accomplished.
And liberals have been called “pollyannish”!
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:28 pmJesus, please protect our troops and keep them out of harms way. Please help liberals to understand that this will not be an easy war. Please have mercy and forgive those soldiers that have decided to tarnish the U. S. Military name. Please help them to understand that your will is for every nation to live in democracy. I intercede for Sen. Clinton, John Kerry, Mr. Kuo and the rest of the democratic party. Please cleanse them from their sinful ways. And I’ll give you the praise forever, amen. I thank you and claim the majority of the seats in the House and Senate for Republicans. You said claim it and it’s yours. Again, in your name I pray, amen.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:33 pmI agree UB. I am a Christian, but I have taken the time to explore history and religion. I try to do what I can…
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:40 pmWhat happened to Peace? Is not Jesus a man of peace?
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:43 pmWhy so do you wish Jesus to fight those that he loved?
Did not Jesus say to love thy enemy?
Do you not see that you are praying to Satan?
Why do you put Satan upon the peaceful liberals?
Daryll: “And when you pray, be not like the hypocrites, who affect to pray standing in the assemblies, and at the corners of the streets, that men may observe them. Indeed, I say to you, they have received their reward. But you, when you would pray, retire to your closet; and having shut the door, pray to your Father; and your Father, to whom, though he is unseen himself, nothing is secret, will recompense you.”
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:45 pmTell me Darrly the group that Bush belongs to? Skull And Bones? Pirates? The Devil? The Beautiful Red Flag of Jouli Rouge? Do you not realize that the Bush family has a long history of profitting from the sales of arms?
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:45 pmYeah, the Bush family is just sooooo religious. Jeb and George were both raised Pentacostals. Jeb’s in South Florida, so now he’s a catholic. George’s is in Texas so, he’s a born-again (knows their language.) Yeah, they’re just sooooo religious.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:49 pmDear flying Spaghetti Monster:
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:50 pmPlease prevent the republican tricksters from rigging this election so your will can be done, and the American public can remove these theiving jackanapes from office and reclaim their country.
Then we can get about the business of getting the troops home out of harms way without waiting for Jeebus to get to it someday.
Please shower the troops who were brave enough to speak out against this immoral war with lots of parmesan cheese and oregano.
Don’t forgive the criminal bastards who are reponsible for this mess, rather, kick their f*&*()&*()&*)ing asses from here to eternity.
Amen
This really is a nightmare, Daryll is channeling my crazy dead granddad Clarence!
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:58 pmI agree UB. I am a Christian, but I have taken the time to explore history and religion. I try to do what I can…
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — October 23, 2006 @ 4:40 pm
I used to be. Only because I was born into it and told not to question it. But, then after exploring science and history myself, I did one day, and well, that was the beginning of the end. It was a very difficult process because beliefs are treated as unquestionable truths in our society. And when you are in the minority who chooses not to believe, the ‘moral majority’ is ruthless in the persecution of you.
Yet, having lived on both sides of that fence, and understanding that for each choice we make, there are both positive and negative consequences, I prefer the consequences of atheism to those of faith. Because this way, if there is a god who rules me, it is me…
But, I know that not all Christians are as gullible as Daryll. Unfortunately, you all are the minority.
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:58 pmHow is it not blasphemous to suggest Jesus ever supports war? Who would Jesus kill?
October 23rd, 2006 at 4:59 pmDear flying Spaghetti Monster:
I am guessing you mean string theory?
Really lets simplify this energy that surrounds us all, since we do really exist in a huge generator of sorts.
If we were to take Kirlian photography, we would see a field around us. Is this a Soul? An Aura? It’s energy, blue and cool. Negative.
Really it’s energy, + – and 0. Call it the Father, the Sun, the Holy Ghost, Call it Yin and Yang, Call it knowledge of the Aether, call it what you will, it exists
Whom here, liberal or otherwise, has no soul?
If we were not an unbalanced energy would we exist?
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:00 pmDear flying Spaghetti Monster:
Comment by RUCerious — October 23, 2006 @ 4:50 pm
I don’t think it’s possible to be funnier than that!
Touche’!
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:00 pmWho would Jesus kill?
Comment by Wilco — October 23, 2006 @ 4:59 pm
According to Daryll, it seems that Jesus would kill the very people he claimed to be here to save…
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:04 pmI used to be. Only because I was born into it and told not to question it. But, then after exploring science and history myself, I did one day, and well, that was the beginning of the end. It was a very difficult process because beliefs are treated as unquestionable truths in our society
Ironically my path was just the opposite..=) My father was raised in strict catholic schools and disliked the authority so much that he refused to teach us religion, he allowed us to find our own. But, really, to me God is only Actions, and he is but pure energy. Knowlegde of the Aether…
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:05 pmWho would Jesus kill?
Comment by Wilco
Actually that would be himself.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:07 pmI just don’t see any proof of a god. Faith alone just isn’t enough for me.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:09 pm“Whatsoever you do to the least of my people, that you do unto me.”
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:11 pmI think that includes killing, um…anyone.
Daryll – as a Christian, I am appalled by your “prayer”:
Jesus, please protect our troops and keep them out of harms way.
So far, so good. I’m with you on this.
Please help liberals to understand that this will not be an easy war.
Jesus didn’t take up arms against the Roman Empire, as many of his fellow Jew (Zealots) wanted. What makes you think he wants “us liberals” to “understand war” at all?
Please have mercy and forgive those soldiers that have decided to tarnish the U. S. Military name.
Since when is God concerned about the “name” of the U.S. Military. The only “name” to be protected is that of God (see Ten Commandments).
Please help them to understand that your will is for every nation to live in democracy.
Where in the world do you come up with this piece of theological nonsense? God’s will is for every individual to live in his spiritual kingdom, that’s the ONLY “government” the Bible has any concern with.
I intercede for Sen. Clinton, John Kerry, Mr. Kuo and the rest of the democratic party. Please cleanse them from their sinful ways.
How did you get chosen to intercede on anyone’s behalf? Jesus demands that you ask for forgiveness and cleansing of YOUR sin, not others.
And I’ll give you the praise forever, amen.
A true Christian gives praise to God unconditionally, not as a bargain for political or any other gain.
I thank you and claim the majority of the seats in the House and Senate for Republicans. You said claim it and it’s yours.
God never said we could claim anything WE wanted and it would be granted.
Your “prayer” is as hypocritical and theologically unsound as those of the Pharisees of Jesus’ time. You give Christianity a bad name and are a stumbling block to others’ acceptance of Christ and His teachings.
Comment by Daryll
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:12 pm#144
Killing ppl in name of Democracy? Democracy is those ppl’s will not your will. Freedom is ppl free to choose their freedom, not you make a war to force them accept Freedom.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:12 pm#144 Daryll
Jesus, please protect our troops and keep them out of harms way. Please help liberals to understand that this will not be an easy war.
Jebus, please help Daryll understand that this is not a necessary war and it’s not a good one. Please show him how it was started by evil people who don’t care about him or our country or the hundreds of thousands of people being killed. Amen.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:16 pmBut, really, to me God is only Actions, and he is but pure energy. Knowlegde of the Aether…
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — October 23, 2006 @ 5:05 pm
I have no problem with Deism. It’s the organized religion stuff that I detest.
I suspect that toward the end of his life my father was Agnostic. But he never let on.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:19 pmWhy would Jesus cry out to himself on the cross if he WERE god?
Comment by Wilco — October 23, 2006 @ 5:16 pm
Exactly!
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:23 pmYeah, thanks un, I’m a genius.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:32 pmJesus never said he was God, he stated he was the son of man, the morning star..
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:35 pm#173, I concur, it was Constantine and his chums who came up with the Dad, the Kid and the Spook – talk about theological gymnastics.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:39 pmYes, Ray, I just found out(from sources I am not at Liberty to disclose) they were all Democrats. Ample reason to suspend the elections until we get all Democrats out of our Armed Forces. Disgusting.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:48 pmDog, the point isn’t that HE said he was god but that WE say he was god.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:48 pmIn this age, his words are relatively meaningless. Jesus was a Jew, for Hissakes!
The Holy Trinity was the prevailing belief at the time, though. Those who contested the divinity of Jesus were already deemed heretical. Constantine had little to do with it, aside from its organization.
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:53 pmCanonical decisions were made without him.
Since we’ve got a theological subthread going, here’s my mini-theology: The triune God is similar to us humans identifying ourselves with a Creative Mind (Father), Body (Son), and Consciousness/Self Awareness (Spirit). For Jesus to pray or call out to his Father, is not too different from us meditating or talking ourselves through a problem.
I sincerely hope that we progressives can maintain a big enough tent to keep atheists, agnostics, and those of faith together on this material plane in order to meet our shared goals (which we do need to articulate more clearly, forcefully, and often).
October 23rd, 2006 at 5:59 pm176. Your sources must come from the same place as the WMD source because my sources tell me everyone of the soldiers is southern republican, nra card carrying staunch conservative who actually are seeing the horror first hand. So few of them actually out there but here they are. My same sources also tell me that you should consider stronger deodorant and change your underware more often. The stench is causing your co-workers to wretch. I’m sure it’s difficult with you being so full of shit and all.
please be considerate of others.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:00 pm#178 – right on – the divinity issue was a political issue used to crush dissent, nothing more, nothing less from Constantine’s perspective. I suspect he could have given a sh** as long as he could use it to advantage.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:13 pm#179 ah, but then when you add the adoration of the Mary figure, all the interceding by the saints and you are back with polytheism all over again.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:17 pmLet’s concentrate on any momentum that get’s these troops home, and stop being distracted by the likes of RayFromGa who are trying to change the subject.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:47 pmMary and the saints aren’t worshipped as gods, though. They are holy instruments, not gods themselves. A more proper term (over “worship”) is revere.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:49 pmThey weren’t believed to be gods, either. They could appear, and perform miracles, even after death, but never is the mantle of divinity placed upon them. Again, they act as instruments of God.
I don’t think, however, divinity was a political issue. The purpose of the council was to form a one true religion, to finally define christianity. The divinity of Jesus was the most common belief, it was widespread. Also, it was an issue that necessarily had to be addressed. The nature of God himself, is perhaps the most important issue any religion can face. And the fact of it is that people who believed otherwise about the nature of Jesus were in the severe minority.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:54 pmnowhereman: “Let’s concentrate on any momentum that get’s these troops home, and stop being distracted by the likes of RayFromGa who are trying to change the subject.”
Thanks. God is not going to bring those troops home. Faith won’t do it. And, no amount of getting down on your knees and talking to yourself is going to bring those troops home. I think voting for the Dem in a couple weeks might actually have more effect than praying for an acceptable outcome.
October 23rd, 2006 at 6:57 pm#26 chimpeach
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:06 pmVery well said. Thanks.
#75 chimpeach
That’s a good one too.
I am late coming in, so I am catching up.
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:11 pmI like to keep things simple. There once was a person, Appolonius, who also had all of the alleged powers of Jesus (also no physical evidence he even existed either). You know, things like, turning water into wine, walking on water, healing the ailing, espoused peace, etc. Whatever happened to him? Wasn’t good looking enough? Didn’t have a shroud? Mom wasn’t a virgin?
As for all of the gods that humans have worshipped over the ages, has anyone ever noticed that not a single one has ever made a public appearance? You know, something like, live at Madison Square Garden, In a limited engagement – God! Also on pay-per-view for only $49.95! People have worshipped everything from rocks to wind to the sun to invisible, imaginary men floating in the sky. Now, none of these things are in and of themselves harmful. Until you start believing so fervently that you feel you are obligated to ’share’ your beliefs with other people. Ones who agree begin to follow your path and so on and so on. Religions are formed. People (usually through some level of fear) join to belong. Eventually people, proven throughout history to be easily manipulated and fooled let themselves be herded into whatever religion was in power at that particular time. They made rules of which most were and still are absolutely ridiculous. Some say God will reward you if you capitulate to them. Others warn of impending personal doom if you don’t. Both offers equally a total crock of shit.
It would take me about 5 more hours to go into detail so just to make it short; organized religion is, by far, the greatest evil ever perpetrated upon the human race. A prime example is the total assinine arguments put forth by Daryll (his insane prayer another example of reaffirming his religious beliefs through political manipulation). People like him and there are millions of them in this country alone, believe that George Bush is an apprentice messiah, apostle wannabe or some form of prophet sent by God to round up the American sinners and nonbelievers to bend to Bush’s will because it is what God wants. On top of using the American military to invade any country Bush wants. Remember, Bush is fulfilling God’s will.
I find it so hard to believe sometimes that people like Daryll, Citizen Dad, etc., find it so easy to reduce themselves to something on the intellectual level of a marshmallow while simultaneously sacrificing all that it is to be human. These are the type of people who would sacrifice anything and, more importantly, anyone to prove what a good follower they are. This is why it has worked so well for so long. Belief is about the easiest thing a human being can do. Accepting and admitting the truth has proven to be one of the hardest.
October 23rd, 2006 at 7:58 pmMr. Evil, many people evidently cannot live with chaos. They must bring order to their universe any way they can even if it means telling themselves pleasing stories and pretending that they know the unknowable.
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:02 pmYeah, Bluedog49, they just cannot stand anything or anyone disrupting their little fantasy bubble.
October 23rd, 2006 at 8:16 pmI know this is terribly late, but that was not the real RayFromGA — some troll hijacked his name.
October 23rd, 2006 at 9:24 pmhttp://www.appealforredress.org
October 23rd, 2006 at 11:15 pmKeith Olberman will have a special piece on Countdown tomorrow (Tuesday) night about this very subject. Should be interesting.
October 24th, 2006 at 2:14 amThese are a few comments from a friend of mine who is actually in Iraq as we speak, working as an MP:
So if Mark was having soooo much fun in Iraq, if he looooved Iraq, I’m not entirely sure where in Iraq he was stationed.
October 24th, 2006 at 12:29 pm#8 Umm, bad for morale?? Seems this is a symptom of bad morale caused by a being forced to fight in a pointless occupation that has been screwed up from the get go. But I know how backward many of you Georgians are so I forgive you for having such a pathetic take on this.
October 24th, 2006 at 1:55 pmSo if Mark was having soooo much fun in Iraq, if he looooved Iraq, I’m not entirely sure where in Iraq he was stationed.
Comment by ACG
I’ve gone over this already, but I’ll reiterate:
For the first four months of my deployment I was stationed just south of Baghdad running missions with Army Rangers, infantry, CA, ect. out of FOB Kalsu.
After that we spent a few weeks at FOB Dogwood as it closed and then returned to Al Asad for reassignment.
Our mission for the last 2-2.5 months was embedded with an Iraqi brigade in the city of Karmah, just outside of Fallujah. While we were there Karmah was considered the second most dangerous city in Iraq – next to Ramadi. This is the city thought to house insurgents who fled Fallujah when the Marines retook Fallujah the second time.
Is that good enough for you?
October 24th, 2006 at 6:51 pmI was one of those “guys who went out to find the bastards who were shooting at us” your friend was talking about.
Perhaps that is why I had enjoyed my tour more than he is.
October 24th, 2006 at 6:53 pmI am also a Vet of Iraq, Marines Infantry during the invasion. I saw combat and there is not a soul alive who can question my patriotism or commitment to my country.
I am worried about Iraq, I am worried about our president’s competency but most importantly I am worried about us as American citizens and our increasing tendency to abandon reason and civil discourse to name calling and political punditry.
As a current military member I am obligated not just to the CIC or the American people but to something greater. I took an oath to defend the Constitution of The United States. This document is what makes us citizens of this country and guarantees our freedoms.
What upsets me the most is our presidents frequent and deliberate attempts to undermine basic principles of our Constitution.
1. The NSA wiretap program violates the 4th amendment
2. The president has hardly vetoed and legislation because he simply ignores the Constitutionally protected legislation of the congress through his blatant use of signing statements to place caveats and qualifiers tantamount to a “line-item” vetoe even though he has no authority to do so. But don’t ask me look at what Arlen Specter (R), chairman of the Judiciary Committee has to say about it.
3. MOST IMPORTANTLY: The recently signed Military Commissions Act of 2006 grants the president power to declare American Citizens “Unlawful Enemy Combatants” and deprive them of ALL their Constitutional Rights!!!
Terrorism is a serious threat, but no terrorist could ever cause the damage to our freedoms legislation like this could. By allowing these abuses to our Constitution to continue we grant terrorists a victory in the sense that we ourselves destroy the foundation of what makes us American, our freedoms.
October 25th, 2006 at 11:37 pmBe careful, serving in the military and going to war doesn’t get you much respect around here.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:36 pm