Bush’s ‘Fence Bill’ Doesn’t Actually Create Fence
Bush’s ‘Fence Bill’ Doesn’t Actually Create Fence
Bowing to anti-immigration hardliners in the House, President Bush today held a White House ceremony celebrating the signing of the “Secure Fence Act.” Bush told reporters, “The bill authorizes the construction of hundreds of miles of additional fencing along our southern border.”
Bush is right, the bill does “authorize” the constrution of a new fence. But that doesn’t mean the bill pays for it. As the Washington Post reported earlier this month:
No sooner did Congress authorize construction of a 700-mile fence on the U.S.-Mexico border last week than lawmakers rushed to approve separate legislation that ensures it will never be built, at least not as advertised, according to Republican lawmakers and immigration experts.
… [S]hortly before recessing late Friday, the House and Senate gave the Bush administration leeway to distribute the money to a combination of projects — not just the physical barrier along the southern border. The funds may also be spent on roads, technology and “tactical infrastructure” to support the Department of Homeland Security’s preferred option of a “virtual fence.”
The “Secure Fence Act” has everything to do with motivating the right-wing base, and nothing to do with securing America’s borders or passing comprehensive immigration reform.
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…..and the signing statement…what does it say?????….maybe…’unless I don’t want to.?….
October 26th, 2006 at 11:35 amBush wants the entire poor population of Mexico to come across the border into the United States > that way wages will never go up for average American workers, plus universal health care will never be enacted!
October 26th, 2006 at 11:36 amKeep an eye out for a fence to be built along our northern border…by the Canadians!
October 26th, 2006 at 11:41 amAdmit it or not, we can’t build a sustainable society in this country if population growth continues to skyrocket. We need to manage growth if there’s to be any hope of preserving habitats, air quality, water quality, open space. Our ability to provide infrastructure, schools, roads, and medical care is limited, not limitless. Let’s work on sustainable long-term planning which permits immigration in a compassionate and predictable manner. We shouldn’t let the rants of racists and xenophobes blind us to the plain fact that there are indeed limits to growth.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:41 amIllegal Immigration on the scale it’s happening right now, has never been seen. Bush has done everything to overlook the problem, to minimize it and it will end up changing and damaging this country.
I find it strange the democratic party doesn’t support the working man. Illegal Immigrants are taking jobs from the lower, lower-middle, and even middle class workers. Illegals, willing to work for slave wages, are keeping wages way down.
Someone answer this: why do dems who so love the idea of a minimum wage, can’t understand basic economics when it comes to having millions of illegals working in our country????
October 26th, 2006 at 11:43 amOh, I forgot — the two parties have morphed into the Republicrats
October 26th, 2006 at 11:46 amGood. It’s a terrible idea in the first place. It’s a waste of money, easily defeated, and would be a blight on the animal life in the area.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:47 amI thought NAFTA was supposed to take care of this problem. When’s that going to kick in? Hee hee
October 26th, 2006 at 11:48 amJkelley, Why doesn’t the GOP want to crack down on the companies highering the illegal workers?
October 26th, 2006 at 11:48 amReminds me of that old Communism quip - “You can pretend to pay us and we’ll pretnd to work”
October 26th, 2006 at 11:50 amWe should be building bridges, not fences.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:50 amJkelly- why don’t repugs who so love the idea of stopping illegal immigration realize that the republican party’s corporate backers will always support having an undocumented cheap labor source?
that’s why you’re seeing this faith-based fence project.
the problem with you republicans is that you don’t realize that the people you vote for rely on you to be fools.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:51 amThis wall is so stupid.
http://www.theworstpresidentever.org
October 26th, 2006 at 11:55 amNo matter what, we must STAY THE FENCE !!
October 26th, 2006 at 11:56 amSomeone answer this: why do dems who so love the idea of a minimum wage, can’t understand basic economics when it comes to having millions of illegals working in our country????
Comment by Jkelly
Well for one Dem, me, I think that the laws on the books right now sufficiently could handle the illegal working of illegal immigrants. Crack down on all the businesses that illegally employ illegal immigrants. I am all for that. That would leave illegal immigrants a choice. To either not work in the US or try to improve the country they are from and if they want to try to come to the US legally. There are rules to becoming an immigrant to the US. Basic economics says that the businesses that employ the illegal immigrants are the ones that perpetuate the problem. Its the money.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:56 amAs I said (please read comment) Goose & theright - the republicans are the same as dems especially when it comes to illegal immigration. Neither party is taking the problem seriously. But, why not answer my question: why do dems who so love the idea of a minimum wage, can’t understand basic economics when it comes to having millions of illegals working in our country????
& Jake, what about millions crossing the boarder & leaving tons of trash & human waste? What effect does that have on the wildlife?
I live 45 minites from the boarder.
October 26th, 2006 at 11:58 amwhy do dems who so love the idea of a minimum wage, can’t understand basic economics when it comes to having millions of illegals working in our country????
I’ll give you a lawyer’s answer: Objection, ambiguous, vague, argumentative, leading, assumes facts not in evidence.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:05 pmDiet:
I agree that laws on the books exist to solve the problem. Political Backbone is lacking - both with the dems & repubs. And, it’s not just the money, it’s also the power. Dems see illegals as a voting block for adding to their base. Otherwise, why would dems be so adamant about basic, common sense proposals for voter identification? When it comes to voter fraud, dems turn their head if it’s about mexican illegals.
I just don’t see any democrates willing to stem the invasion.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:05 pmCaption Contest:
Chimpy: Hey Dick, would you warm your hands up a bit before you do that?
October 26th, 2006 at 12:05 pmhas anybody brought up the issue of what an environmental disaster this fence would be?
October 26th, 2006 at 12:06 pmCaption Contest:
Chimpy: Gottle of geer, gottle of geer.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:07 pmDems see illegals as a voting block for adding to their base.
Comment by Jkelly
Does anyone find this statement as stupid as I do? JKelly….please go watch your border…I mean “boarder”.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:07 pmI have decided that you are either for illegal immigration (read that “pathway to citizenship” or amnesty) or you are for working class U.S. citizens. You can’t be both.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:08 pmIllegal Immigrants are taking jobs from the lower, lower-middle, and even middle class workers. Illegals, willing to work for slave wages, are keeping wages way down.
And guess what? If we force employers to hire only legal citizens (which I am in favor of) and we increase the minimum wage (which is also a moral imperative) consumer prices are going to go through the roof. Corporations are not going to decrease shareholder earnings or CEO pay, they are going to pass the expense of paying a living wage to citizens onto the consumer. In the end, there will be absolutely no net gain for the working class. They might get jobs picking cantaloupes for $10/hour but if they want to buy a cantaloupe in the grocery store, it’s going to cost $14.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:09 pmI just don’t see any democrates willing to stem the invasion.
Comment by Jkelly
So tell me what the Repubs have done over the past 6 years while they have had control of everything. They will build a virtual fence? And if you didn’t understand my last post…..illegals can’t vote.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:10 pm#22. Have you considered what an environmental disaster it would be if terrorists crossed the border and blew up a nuclear plant?
October 26th, 2006 at 12:10 pmGosh. This is kind of like a “Healthy Forests Initiative” which doesn’t protect forests or a “Clear Skies Initiative” which doesn’t clean the air. Why would anyone be surprised to be bullshat by these guys.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:11 pmBuild levees, not fences!
Art in New Orleans
October 26th, 2006 at 12:13 pmJKelly: “I just don’t see any democrates willing to stem the invasion.”
Ah guess y’all don’t reed tu guud. Up above it says republicraps, not democrats, are bs-ing us about immigrant policy.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:14 pmThe Republicans have worked hard to place US troops in close proximity to terrorists using them like human chunks of cheese in a mouse trap, they have ignored North Korea allowing them to “nuke up” and are in the process of pissing away time and allowing the Iranians to “nuke-up”.
All while leaving the US borders open and offshoring the monitering of US ports to Arab nations that have a record of fudning terrorists.
Mission Accomplished.
-GSD
October 26th, 2006 at 12:14 pmrightisalways said:
I’ll give you a lawyer’s answer: Objection, ambiguous, vague, argumentative, leading, assumes facts not in evidence.
Whoa, don’t you realize lawyer are below used car salesmen in the public’s eyes. But I digress —
The two points in my comment:
Dems love the idea of minimum wage
Dems turn a blind eye to illegal immigration
Tell me where I’m being argumentative, leading, or assuming?
Hmmmm.
Spudge boy - as I’ve said, both parties favor the illegal invasion - for differing reasons. The repubs for lower labor cost; the dems to increase their political base.
Your idea of limiting number of people living in a residence has merit (in so. cal we call them ‘clown houses’) but liberal organizations are doing everything in their power to keep that from happening. The ACLU is threatening suit against the city of Escondido that just passed an ordinance to limit the number of people living in a residence.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:15 pmmidwestblue: “Have you considered what an environmental disaster it would be if terrorists crossed the border and blew up a nuclear plant?”
I have, and I’m a little surprised that people are not more angry that republicraps have refused to shore up security at nuclear plants and chemical plants.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:15 pm#29 Do you really think that this fence’s purpose is to keep terrorists out?!!?!?? ROTFLOL!!!
October 26th, 2006 at 12:16 pmLet’s see, we fight the “War on Drugs” by mainly going after the customers. Why don’t we fight the “War on Illegal Immigration” by doing the same thing. You either agree with the concept of going after customers or you don’t.
Maybe when the customers are corporations, there’s a different set of rules. You think?
October 26th, 2006 at 12:18 pmI just don’t see any democrates willing to stem the invasion.
Comment by Jkelly
We have Repugs running the administration. Look at the record of how many businesses were fined for hiringing illegals during the Clinton years vs the Bush years and you will see that Bush’s administration is not enforcing the laws on the books.
Your statement is false and total crap.
You Repugs want to blame the Dems for what the Bush administration has done wrong and for the Bush administration not enforcing the laws onthebooks, Typical rePIGlican BS.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:25 pmThere are laws on the books making certain drugs illegal. If I am caught purchasing one of those products, I could go to jail. There are laws on the books making the hiring of certain people illegal. If I get hiring one or two of them, I might get a slap on the wrist, maybe not.
Corporatists say the corporation has the rights of an individual. But, it doesn’t appear that corporations have any of the obligations which go along with rights.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:32 pmMore no-bid contractor money for Bush cronies. That is all the rubber-stampers passed. Fool me once shame on you, fool me twice shame on me…. I can’t be fooled again.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:33 pmWe need a government that will actually build a fence across our entire southern border. This government has failed us on that account. Will the dems build the fence if they come to power?
October 26th, 2006 at 12:41 pmAs Texas Democratic candidate for Governor Chris Bell has stated, wasting billions in taxpayer dollars to build a 700 mile 20 foot wall will only increase the market for 21 foot ladders.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:41 pmThe Neocon goal here is a North American State : US/Canada/Mexico/the Central American Countries / + more? while they pretend to protect our borders and only say the right things. Good bye middle class,and any power that you may have weilded in the past that kept these maniacs in check & under control.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:42 pm#36 Thanks, Spudge Boy. I was hoping that wasn’t too simplistic, but I do think it’s pretty black and white. I’ve written my Senators and Congressmen, and the only response I’ve received is from my Democratic Senator: same old “we’re all immigrants” claptrap.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:44 pmThat’s interesting! I don’t see any invasion up here in Washington state where 15% of the apple crop is rotting on the trees. There is an acute shortage of migrant labor for harvest.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:45 pmI think the GOP is doing a great job of controlling the border, they don’t need no stinkin fence.
Oh, and by the way, you’ll all be paying around .50 per pound more for your apples next summer. Congratulations for implementing a guest worker program that works, Congress. What? They didn’t? Oh, never mind.
The way to stop illegal immigration isn’t by a fence or guarding the border.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:46 pmthe best way to stop it from happening is to kill off the demand side, not litarally. Just charge the businesses hiring illegal immigrants a huge sum of money for every offence. Businesses stop hiring, the huge flow stops because nobody can survive on nothing.
Now all the immigrants that are here and fired can do several things, Go back to their original contry of orgin, Join the military and earn their citizenship, or join a rebuilding corp to rebuild hurricane areas for a year or so and earn citizenship. No camps, no fences.
the way to get politicians to be ok on it is that if some of the money fined from businesses would line thier pockets…. that is how to push it though…. and would make it happen fast.
On second thought, maybe a series of booby trapped trip wires and fou-gass death zone would work better. After a couple of months the bodies would be stacked up high enough we wouldn’t need a fence.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:47 pmAnd we could waterboard anyone caught alive in the death zone, that’s the Amerikan way!
Shane, seriously, good post!
October 26th, 2006 at 12:49 pmIf the Demo-Craps gain power, they will probably send illegals tickets to make their journey even easier. I sure hope the average American realizes what peril this nation will be in if those idiots are allowed to call the shots.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:51 pmI believe the signing statement allows him to build a secret prison at his discretion.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:52 pmIf the Demo-Craps gain power, they will probably send illegals tickets to make their journey even easier.
Comment by tony renda
Yeah, and they will probably go to Mexico and give piggy-back rides across the border also. Duh-huh-huh-huh…..snort……uh-huh-huh.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:54 pmAnybody heard of any environmental impact report on this fence? Any studies on its feasability (how deep,how wide,how tall)? All I’ve heard is it 700 miles. Typical Congress move-make a law but don’t see if it’s workable before you do.Patriot Act-written and passed in less that 1 month (and even today few in congress have read it).Detainee Bill -written and passed in less than a month. And we pay congress to not do any homework at all (for that matter little work either).I’d like a job working 90 days a year and no accomplishment necessary or needed.
October 26th, 2006 at 12:54 pmIt would make sense that both capitalist parties want guest worker programs. It makes legal less than standard compensation. It’s only a matter of how the twin parties are going to package it for the American public to make it seem palatable. It’s not, and it should not be accepted. Only a business owner would ever want the government to commission scabs. This is divide and conquer.
The increase in ‘border security,’ raids, deportations, and right-wing populist organizations, is intended to scare undocumented laborers s***less so they can’t organize and demand a better wage or amnesty. Does anyone really think we can’t afford amnesty? More to the point, does anyone think unauthorized immigration is really what’s draining our economy?
The solution is simple: grant amnesty and withdraw from Iraq.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:06 pmTony renda: “I sure hope the average American realizes what peril this nation will be in if those idiots are allowed to call the shots.”
As opposed to what your republicraps have accomplished in the last 12 years…
October 26th, 2006 at 1:09 pmEnvironmental impact? Yes, it prevents the northern migration of criminals.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:10 pmHappy guy don’t reed tu guud.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:20 pmOk, where’s Cheney’s hand?
October 26th, 2006 at 1:23 pmWhat if there were NO jobs for illegals…..end of problem. The bottom line is the Mexican AND American governments are the problem.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:27 pm#22. Have you considered what an environmental disaster it would be if terrorists crossed the border and blew up a nuclear plant?
Comment by midwestblue — October 26, 2006 @ 12:10 pm
Have you considered what a disaster it would be if a terrorist flew into this country on a plane and did the same thing?
This is such a dumbass ignorant argument. When has a terrorist ever came by way of Mexico?
However, the environmental impact (as per the original post) is very real and very costly.
But why on earth should we care about all the other species on this planet when we have to defend ourselves from the boogeyman — err –I mean terrists?
October 26th, 2006 at 1:30 pmIllegal immigration is an interesting issue. Republicans and Democrats seem to agree whole heartedly on this issue. Though for different reasons.
Libs are compassionate and want to help poor people by letting them come here.
Cons want to get lots of cheap unskilled labor to keep profits high.
STOP THE INSANITY!
Controlling the borders does NOT mean keeping out all immigrants. It means deciding intelligently which ones and how many we will allow.
From either point of view, what’s wrong with that?
October 26th, 2006 at 1:33 pmPublic Agenda’s latest Confidence in U.S. Foreign Policy Index (http://www.publicagenda.org/foreignpolicy/index.cfm) shows there is a marked dissatisfaction on immigration. Nearly eight in 10 Americans give the United States low grades (http://www.publicagenda.org/foreignpolicy/foreignpolicy_reportcard.htm) for protecting U.S. borders from illegal immigration. And eight in 10 (http://www.publicagenda.org/foreignpolicy/foreignpolicy_worries.htm) worry that it may be too easy for illegal immigrants to come into the country.
Public Agenda (http://www.publicagenda.org/) is a nonprofit, nonpartisan group devoted to public opinion and public policy.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:37 pmWayne:::::: wrote
Look at the record of how many businesses were fined for hiringing illegals during the Clinton years
I agree the clinton admin did better but they did very, very little. A proverbial drop in the bucket.
I’m not just blaming dems for the problem; i said mucho times the repubs also are to blame. Read my comments if you want to respond to them please!
Can any of you liberal minded people name one democratic candidate - congressional or senate - who’s come out against illegal immigration?
I can’t.
Spudge Boy::::::::::::::::::
I ain’t taking both sides —- I’m against illegal immigration.
Raising the minimum wage will do nothing about illegal immigration. Raising the minimum wage causes prices on everything to rise — food, rent, transpo, etc. It would certainly raise the illegal’s slave wages as well but to no net effect. Simple economics — more dollars chasing the same or fewer services and/or goods causes prices to rise. It’s called inflation.
By the way, illegals, at least in San Diego, command and get a higher than minimum wage. Going wage for the lowest on the ladder, those catching jobs at the Home Depot, is $60 for 7 hours, transport counts as time on the job and lunch must be included. Works out to $8.57 hour.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:42 pmI’d wager a bet that some of them have come via mexico and are living here right now. Also, untill recently, what terrorist ever flew a plane into a building? They found that vulnerability because we closed off others. We know the southern border is a vulnerability. Why shouldn’t we do something about it? (and the ports too, for that matter.)
Yup. I agree. But what about the “electronic fence” idea? Shouldn’t we at least be considering these things? The question should not be whether to secure the border, but how.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:43 pmLet’s stop funding corporate farming so that the Mexican farmers and American farmers can once again farm and make a living wage.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:45 pmBush may have agreed that, yes, a fence can be built but he never agreed to pay for the fence so you might as well forget the fence. It’s like the funds to help Katrina victims, all talk and no money.
October 26th, 2006 at 1:47 pmNot only would the environmental impact in fragile ecosystems be horrible, the Native American press is reporting on the impacts on cross-border reservations. They are already having trouble getting back and forth to visit family and go to school within their own reservations because of checkpoints, but the fence would create much more hardship for people.
About the apples rotting in Washington: Expect to pay more for pears, tomatoes, oranges and other fruit that has already rotted in Northern California. I also read about a landscaping company in Southern California which pays $32/hour to (legal) Mexican immigrants and can’t recruit Americans to do the work. (LA Times a few months ago)
October 26th, 2006 at 2:11 pmThe republicans want to protect their jobs picking strawberries and apples?
October 26th, 2006 at 2:27 pmIs the American Dream finite? Bummer.
Oh, LauraK::::::::::::::::::
take it from someone who’s been on the boarder many, many times - the boarder is an environmental disaster right now. Why?, you ask. 2 reasons, massive inflow of illegals crossing & Mexico sending it’s pollutants north. One example of the latter - Tijuana sewage flows by the millions of gallons north via the Tijuana river to San Diego. We in San Diego have the priviledge of processing much of it (can’t get it all) for free. Many of the southern San Diego beaches are heavily polluted thanks to Mexican sewage.
As to apples, tomatoes, oranges and other fruit rotting — let the market quickly solve the problem. When people want the fruit, they’ll pay for it. Wages to pick fruit will rise until people are attracted to that kind of work. Or, technology will be developed to pick the fruit.
As to the landscaping co in S. California paying $32 and not getting anyone to take the job. It turned out to be a hoax. It was like McCain when he was talking to a union group in Phoenix and told them none of them would pick lettuce even for $50 an hours. That absurd statement cost him complete credibility with the group and many boos.
October 26th, 2006 at 2:27 pmDid anyone know what the national bird of Mexico is?
It’s a white, plastic shopping bag.
You see them flying all over down there.
Hey, it’s both a joke and a true statement!
October 26th, 2006 at 2:43 pmYo Jackson. Does Battle Abbey mean anything to you? If so, howdy and regards. The world is getting smaller.
October 26th, 2006 at 2:52 pmSo Bush signed the “No Picket Left Behind” bill.
October 26th, 2006 at 3:22 pmOur President is the king of the bait and switch. He should have been a used car lot owner.
“You can fool some of the people all of the time, you can fool all the people some of the time, but you can’t fool all of the people all of the time” - Abraham Lincoln.
These days I think the only person the President is fooling is himself. Let’s help the President get a grip on reality and vote a straight Democratic ticket on November 7.
October 26th, 2006 at 3:24 pmI am not sure if it is sad or funny to see the conservative commenters trying so hard to change the subject, and remain willfully blind to the fact that Pres Bush has swindled them, once again.
Conservatives and Bush cultists: Stop ignoring the fact that Pres Bush has deceived you. He used an issue that is important to you, feigned toughness, and then signed a wimpy bill (as far as getting you the fence you wanted is concerned).
Pres Bush has failed to deliver on his promise. Instead of demanding he be held accountable, here you are twisting reality, inventing strawman arguments and blaiming the Democrats for “wanting illegal immigration.”
Stop changing the subject. This is not about who would allow illegal immigrants into the country, or hypothetical terrorists walking across the border in 120F heat carrying WMD (they do that all the time, dontchaknow?). This is about Pres Bush failing to deliver on the promise he made that he would build a fence to keep you safe.
Now ask yourselves: If Pres Bush can weasely deceive you on such a basic, tangible issue by spewing truthiness after truthiness -what else has deceived you on?
But, hey, he’s probably lying to you for your own good, right?
October 26th, 2006 at 4:12 pmGregor — you said:
Pres Bush has failed to deliver on his promise. Instead of demanding he be held accountable, here you are twisting reality, inventing strawman arguments and blaiming the Democrats for “wanting illegal immigration.â€
I’m in agreement that Bush is a problem when it comes to illegal immigration. I’m opposed to the total disregard to our nations borders and he doesn’t seem to mind. I hold him accountable but what is that going to do.
Dems do not offer any solutions to the problem, so where do you propose I go if I seek a solution?
The great majority of Americans would like the problem addressed but it’s not and it’s frustrating as hell.
There’s a small group - very small - of conservative congressmen that do see the problem & are attempting to address it. But they stand a snowball’s chance in hell.
October 26th, 2006 at 4:54 pmDon’t forget to thank NAFTA for contributing to the influx of immigrants. Stupid politician’s, playing “politics” with serious issues AS USUAL.
October 26th, 2006 at 5:10 pmNkelly: “Dems do not offer any solutions to the problem, so where do you propose I go if I seek a solution?”
Yeah, like you’ve even looked. Go over to their site. There’s a whole section on immigration. And, in case you haven’t noticed, Dems are more likely to regulate corporations. If you don’t like companies hiring illegals, then bring the hammer down on those that do and set up clear guidelines for hiring the labor needed.
October 26th, 2006 at 5:19 pmBluedog —
I just don’t believe the dems have the will to take care of the problem. Like I’ve said before — actions speak way louder than words — dems have led the charge against any, even the simplist, of voter ID proposals. An illegal or non-citizen who votes is taking away the vote of a citizen.
Where am I wrong on this?
October 26th, 2006 at 5:26 pmDems do not offer any solutions to the problem, so where do you propose I go if I seek a solution?
Comment by Jkelly — October 26, 2006 @ 4:54 pm
My point was that the thread is more about highlighting how Pres Bush has swindled his voters, than about seeking a solution.
Another point I was trying to make is that, even if I agreed Democrats do not offer a solution, throwing false accusations at them is an all time low -specially when Republicans are in charge of all three branches, and could have addressed the problem if they really wanted. I mean, c’mon, do you see Pres Bush vetoing a bill passed by this Republican-controlled Congress?
The great majority of Americans would like the problem addressed but it’s not and it’s frustrating as hell.
That majority would include people in this blog -except most of us don’t agree with scapegoating illegal aliens. Personally, it makes me very uncomfortable to hear/read arguments that are borderline racist or xenophobic (”we have to protect the character of our nation”).
There are many interests that come together to keep the flow of illegal immigrants open: From the industries that hire them, to the politicians using it as a boogeyman to get votes, to corruption in law enforcement agencies.
In my opinion, the logical first step is to enforce the already-existing laws and crack down on employers who hire illegal aliens. Then establish a program that will allow workers to move back and forth between the US and Mexico legally. (There are other additional measures, of course, but I am trying to keep my post short.) What do we get instead? A fence.
Lest we forget: The longest wall in the world did not stop the Mongols.
October 26th, 2006 at 5:43 pmThe fence is just a start - I agree with you that enforcing sanctions against those who employ illegals would be a very good next step. If that were done many illegals would ’self-deport’.
I’ll say again, I agree pres. bush has done a deplorable job in regards to this issue.
I say again, based on what democrates say and vote and liberal orgs also say (like ACLU) - your side has shown no will to address the problem in a responsible manner. Again, both sides have their reasons for keeping the boarder porous.
I’m not a racist or xenophobic but I have been called one by those who disagree with me on the border. It’s a common tactic.
October 26th, 2006 at 5:53 pmdems have led the charge against any, even the simplist, of voter ID proposals. An illegal or non-citizen who votes is taking away the vote of a citizen.
Where am I wrong on this?
Comment by Jkelly — October 26, 2006 @ 5:26 pm
Not necessarily wrong, just misguided. There is no evidence that illegal aliens are heading for the voting booths. I am going to go out on a limb and say that, for the most part, illegal aliens avoid having anything to do with the American legal and political system, for obvious reasons.
From that standpoint, ID cards are a solution looking for a problem.
Now, ID cards are opposed by a lot of people not to help illegals vote (the accusation is ridiculous and stems from a false dichotomy), but because every proposal so far involves charging money to get the cards -which would leave low-income US citizens out. If they were free, on the other hand, I am all for the plan.
October 26th, 2006 at 5:54 pmIf that were done many illegals would ’self-deport’.
Comment by Jkelly — October 26, 2006 @ 5:53 pm
Exactly -no demand, no supply. And it wouldn’t cost a dime to American taxpayers.
I’ll say again, I agree pres. bush has done a deplorable job in regards to this issue.
How can I disagree?
your side has shown no will to address the problem in a responsible manner.
Most people on “this” side want to address it without the xenophobic talk. And without scapegoating the illegal aliens. I mean, in conservative fantasyland, illegals are the the lowest possible lifeform and a powerful force that can destroy civilisation as we know it. At the same time. Please.
I’m not a racist or xenophobic but I have been called one by those who disagree with me on the border.
You made me go back an re-read your posts. I don’t know that can make that accusation. I do think, however, that you making this into a “What do Democrats have to offer?” type of exchange distracts quite nicely from the fact that Pres Bush tricked you.
The joke is on you. Sorry.
October 26th, 2006 at 6:05 pmBush “Fence Bill” Doesn’t Build Fence…
…but it makes for a good election-year sound bite!…
October 26th, 2006 at 6:17 pmYou’re painting the opposing side very darkly - you say:
Most people on “this†side want to address it without the xenophobic talk. And without scapegoating the illegal aliens. I mean, in conservative fantasyland, illegals are the the lowest possible lifeform and a powerful force that can destroy civilisation as we know it.
Samsa - your statement is simply not true that conservatives view illegals the way you say. Sorry for the interuption in your fantasy.
I do believe you believe this to be true but I challenge you to come up with one example of any conservative or republican uttering racists remarks.
And perhaps I did expand the conversation to include the democrats. My problem with democrats isn’t that they don’t know how to critisize (sp?) - they do that in spades. My problem with the democrates is that they come up short on proposals and solutions. That is unless you include the kind of soft, touchy feely, cloudy, say nothing, talk that is typical of Howard Dean as hard solutions.
October 26th, 2006 at 6:22 pmyour statement is simply not true that conservatives view illegals the way you say. Sorry for the interuption in your fantasy.
Comment by Jkelly — October 26, 2006 @ 6:22 pm
I based that opinion on comments made right here at ThinkProgress by self-professed conservatives. They spew the most vile, racist, xenophobic put downs you could ever imagine. I have added a word or two to my vocabulary -not that I would ever use them.
I do believe you believe this to be true but I challenge you to come up with one example of any conservative or republican uttering racists remarks.
What I said before. But I guess you are talking about well-known public figures. If that is the case, I hereby nominate Pat Buchanan for the Bigot of the Year award (Sen George Allen is a runner-up.)
My problem with the democrates is that they come up short on proposals and solutions.
I am not here to defend or excuse Democrats, so I won’t challenge this statement.
I will say, however, that the responsibility for doing something about illegal immigration falls squarely on the shoulders of those in charge. Particularly when they have in charge for 6 years, and they have treated us to a long list of potential threats without taking concrete actions whatsoever. Fearmongering at its best.
October 26th, 2006 at 6:41 pmJKelly: “An illegal or non-citizen who votes is taking away the vote of a citizen.
Where am I wrong on this?”
An illegal alien or a non-citizen cannot legally vote in this country. That has always been the case, so I’m not sure what argument you are making.
October 26th, 2006 at 6:43 pmJkelly is a macaca! macaca macaca macaca!!!
October 26th, 2006 at 7:11 pmI could put dogshit in cans, put a “gourmet chilli†label on it, and (if i told them i was a “conservativeâ€) the avg. republican voter would pay me $15/can for it, tell me that they liked it, and attack anyone who dared say the contents of the can “had an odorâ€. funny, funny, funny…..
October 26th, 2006 at 7:16 pmand attack anyone who dared say the contents of the can “had an odorâ€.
Comment by tom+baker — October 26, 2006 @ 7:16 pm
They would ask critics why they hate America, and why they support the terrorists instead of the troops. Because saying the chilli tastes funny is a typical treasonous liberal thing to do.
Specially because the Leader already said chilli is good for you.
Ah, those damn facts and their well known liberal bias…
October 26th, 2006 at 7:30 pmHomeland Security is now running homeless shelters. Along with being able to fence us in, they control all resources in emergencies. Does anyone feel this is not quite how Homeland Security was to be used besides me? How do they protect us from terrorists AND run homeless shelters? Which is more important? Would they close a shelter if a terrorist attack happened because they may need to change employee’s roles? When did homeless Americans become a homeland security issue and WHY? What the f*** is going on in America>
October 26th, 2006 at 9:54 pmNo Fence Left Behind
…no…
Why Do Fences Hate America?
…no…
Why is George W. Bush an Unapologetic Dumbass Who Leaves Fences Behind and Hates America?
YES!!
October 26th, 2006 at 10:21 pmFences: They work both ways, and maybe someday some Americans will want to leave America. Free to speak, free to work, free to buy, free to vote, but not free to leave when (too late) you realize that the entire system has become a sham.
October 27th, 2006 at 12:06 am[…] Source: Think Progress […]
October 27th, 2006 at 12:28 amBush actually wants the fence constructed because (I’m not making this up…) he thinks it’s going to bring the tourists back to the US.
That’s right, he’s building a FENCE to bring back the TOURISTS! Jeez…
October 27th, 2006 at 1:02 amSee: http://joecrubaugh.com/ blog/ 2006/ 10/ 26/ bush-on-the-fence/
October 27th, 2006 at 1:08 amCaption contest:
Dude, do you think you could warm up your hands before cupping my ass?
October 27th, 2006 at 1:55 amDear Congressmen,
If the fence is ever built, it will be built by undocumented workers. And these undocumented workers will pay all their state, local, and federal (WH + FICA + MC) taxes yet receive no benefits, just like always. But surprise, gringos, they do not want to have sex with your women.
OK, now you can go back to molesting teen-age page boys.
October 27th, 2006 at 6:50 amI’m surprised this is confusing to so many. The reason that neither Dems nor GOPs will truly clamp down on illegal immigration is because they are terrified to lose the legal LATINO vote in the southern states (or any other states).
Whoever sends back Carlos’s cousins will earn the wrath of Carlos’s neighborhood on election day. Could anyone win the presidency if California, Texas, and Florida goes to the opponent?
October 27th, 2006 at 7:07 amSharpshooters at the border,pick off the slimy wetbacks one by one.
October 27th, 2006 at 8:23 am[…] Bush’s ‘Fence Bill’ Doesn’t Actually Create Fence : it’s just another smoke screen in order to shovel money into the DHS. Is this their reward for getting horrible grades from the Council on Foreign Relations? […]
October 27th, 2006 at 10:27 amThe government should pass a law that would bill $2,000,000.00 any
company or person that hires an illegal worker. Second offence should be $10,000,000.00
That would fix the problem in no time. NO FENCE required.
Nobody would even think about hiring an illegal.
The root cause are the businesses hiring all the illegals.
Not the poor little guys who want to work for a minimum wage.
That is why Bushevicks are not doing much. They are in bed with
October 27th, 2006 at 10:36 ambig businesses and farmers.
Peter…. YOU SAID:
That is why Bushevicks are not doing much. They are in bed with
big businesses and farmers.
Maddening, yes?
And the democrats bed down with big unions and the lawyers.
Maddening, also?
October 27th, 2006 at 11:41 amBruce::::::
Sorry to have to tell you this, but raising the minimum wage will not help a low-wage earner.
Why? Simple economics. It creats more dollars chasing the same amount of services and goods. Prices will rise as a effect therefore cancelling any perceived benefit of a wage increase. The minimum wage debate is a canard, a pink elephant - but since the average person has absolutely no understanding of economics (and that’s a knock), it resonates with the masses, gets people excited and buys votes.
Why do you think a college degree keeps getting more expensive and the rate of tuition rises much faster than the rate of inflation????? More and easier cash in the form of easy loans and grants. More cash chasing the same or less services is the real definition of inflation. Bet you didn’t know that.
We wll be seeing inflation in this country exceeding everyones’ expectations in the near future. And you won’t be ready for it.
October 27th, 2006 at 12:21 pmROFL, Do you honestly think a wall would keep anyone ‘out’ of the U.S.? If you do, I have beach front property in Arizona I’d like to sell you. Like Gov. Napolitano, D-AZ, said, (paraphrased), show me a 50 foot wall and I’ll show you a 51 foot ladder.
Let’s face it, the wall isn’t about keeping immigration down. It is about keeping out non-English speaking South American immigrants who threaten our white, anglo-saxon, English-speaking, ‘way of life’, plain and simple — the wall, or concept thereof, is a disgrace.
October 27th, 2006 at 12:39 pmGee, did Gov Napolitano really say that?? Well, that about sums up the dems plans on stemming the flow of illegals. Nah, a fence won’t work, we’ll just sit on our thumbs and watch them rush by. Hey, I got an idea, we can turn them in voters for our causes. Yea, that’s what we can do!
October 27th, 2006 at 12:45 pmMy home value is down over $100,000 since the peak, one year ago.
Hey you stupid Rethugs, stop trying to kick people out of the country! Those immigrants rent houses. If they don’t rent houses, then those houses sit vacant and rent values drom. If rent values drop, then home values drop even further.
October 27th, 2006 at 3:29 pmTHERE IS NO SUCH PERSON AS AN ILLEGAL IMMIGRANT, JUST AS THERE IS NO SUCH THING AS A DEATH TAX! Stop parroting the Rethug propaganda.
When an immigrant crosses the border illegally, that is an illegal act.
But once an immigrant is in this country, he or she is either a documented or undocumented immigrant, but never an illegal immigrant.
October 27th, 2006 at 3:34 pmSo you’re taking a few posts from here as indicative of the way conservative normally feel about people with brown skin?
Comment by Jkelly — October 27, 2006 @ 11:35 am
I am not that dense JKelly. I am not talking about two or three people. I have been blogging in ThinkProgress for months and during this time many, many self-described conservatives have posted comment after comment full of racist diatribe. No just “a little” racist”… these are overt racially inflammatory comments, “they are inferior” kind of thoughts.
A lot of them are so outrageous, and clutter the threads so badly that they get deleted.
They make Buchanan seem tame and quaint.
[..] but I never saw [Buchanan] as a racist. Perhaps you can provide some racist quotes uttered by the man.
Well, there is this one:
“America faces an existential crisis. If we do not get control of our borders, by 2050 Americans of European descent will be a minority in the nation their ancestors created and built. No nation has ever undergone so radical a demographic transformation and survived.”
Putting aside my own doubts about the statement’s historical accuracy, what Buchanan is doing is equating race with nation -a preposterous notion because the US was founded on philosophical principles about freedom and equality, not about pursuing racial purity. All races are equally capable of creating higher culture, that’s a human trait not particular to any one race.
Honestly, I’m getting tired of people calling out RACIST when they disagree with their position on illegal immigration.
Well, if the talk about illegal immigration stayed in the legal realm -where it belongs- nobody would use the ‘R’ word. But as I said, people move away from that and into “they do not learn English because they’re lazy” and it’s all downhill from there.
What do you feel about the students at columbia that rushed the stage and physically intimidated speakers from the Minuteman group?
I thought it was stupid, there are better ways to get their message out than to rush the stage and make the Minutemen clowns look like the victims. I don’t like that Minutemen because they target the wrong end: As I said, the problem is with the demand. Not to mention that close to 40% of people residing illegally in the US are visa overstayers, not “border jumpers”.
As for free speech, well, the law doesn’t cover the actions of individuals.
I won’t say any more about freedom of speech because there is a newer thread where this exchange fits better.
October 27th, 2006 at 4:09 pm[…] (via Think Progress) […]
October 27th, 2006 at 4:24 pmGee, did Gov Napolitano really say that?? Well, that about sums up the dems plans on stemming the flow of illegals. Nah, a fence won’t work, we’ll just sit on our thumbs and watch them rush by. Hey, I got an idea, we can turn them in voters for our causes. Yea, that’s what we can do! Comment by jkelly — October 27, 2006 @ 12:45 pm
Yeah, she did you ignorant fool. AND if you had any mind of your own you’d take the time to learn what Gov. Napolitano’s plan is. You must be one of the sheep, go drink the kool-aide, it’s good…
Ignoramous!
October 27th, 2006 at 6:26 pm[…] Source: Think Progress Posted by Michael Kolanos Filed in Globalization, White House […]
October 27th, 2006 at 11:35 pmJkelly
Here it goes:
Currently America’s supply outstrips its demand - I mean hell you have the government paying farmers to not grow crops for crying out loud. You have plenty of supply.
So if more Americans have money, more people can afford to buy goods. The price doesn’t particularly go up, because what you lose on your per-apple profits, you make up in your volume of sales. The principle was basically Ford’s reasoning behind why he paid his workers high wages - that way they could afford to buy his cars.
The reason why you don’t have people getting paid more is psychological :- generally Americans don’t consider Mexicans as a potential market for anything more then tacos and beans.
October 28th, 2006 at 3:00 amThe Fence even as an Idea,it s much to fence us in, as to keep Mexicans out. The Israeli Fence, which cages Gaza and the West Bank, also cages the Zionist State off from the world except for the American airlift.
October 28th, 2006 at 6:28 am#27-You’re wrong. Studies have shown that when states and cities that raise the minimum wage do better than those that still have it stuck on $5.15/hr. Anyway, this fence is clearly a pandering to the nativist, racist base in the South and Southwest.
October 28th, 2006 at 11:43 ami agree with u gregor samsa in that if the talk about illegal immigration remained in the legal “realm” where it does in fact belong the “R” word would not be used.
November 5th, 2006 at 6:53 pmWELL PUT!
[…] From “Think Progress“: […]
December 14th, 2006 at 3:03 pmAfter about half of mexico’s population has crossed the border into the united states and degraded the standard of living for the citizens here to the point of no return, Mexico will have to build a fence to keep impovershed Americans and Its own Mexican citizens from coming back.
December 15th, 2006 at 12:03 amI’m currently in the U.S. Army was born in mexico but are willing to put my life on the line for this wonderfull country and I totaly agre on making a fence and stop terorrism but dont look at the mexica populatin as one of them terorrist because I was one of them Ilegal aliens at one point but look at me now I’m serving my country and have been deployed to Iraq with out baking up like some american born citizens that I know
February 1st, 2007 at 12:40 pm[…] (Think Progress) Posted by Kevin on October 26th, 2006 filed in Uncategorized […]
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