Hoekstra Pushed For Publication of Sensitive Nuclear Documents, Blames New York Times, IAEA
Hoekstra Pushed For Publication of Sensitive Nuclear Documents, Blames New York Times, IAEA
Yesterday Rep. Peter Hoekstra (R-MI), chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence, blamed the New York Times and the IAEA for the leak of sensitive Iraqi documents — a “nuclear primer” on how to build an atomic bomb — on a public government website:
Concerns by the New York Times and the IAEA prompted the government to shut down the website. The IAEA, “fearing that the information could help states like Iran develop nuclear arms,” privately protested last week to the American ambassador. The Bush administration shut down the site on Thursday evening, only after the New York Times “asked about complaints from weapons experts and arms-control officials.”
Hoekstra, on the other hand, was responsible for making that information public in the first place. Last November, he and Sen. Pat Roberts (R-KS) wrote to Director of National Intelligence John Negroponte and asked him to the post the Iraqi documents.
Hoekstra is now claiming that he has “always been clear that the Director of National Intelligence should take whatever steps necessary to withhold sensitive information.” But in a press release on April 18 — approximately a month after the first documents were made public — Hoekstra issued a news release with no such reservations. He instead acknowledged that posting the information carried “risks, but such risks are minimal.”
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If anyone wanted to build a nuclear bomb and searched “The Google”
November 4th, 2006 at 10:05 amthey would have found that very website without the help of the NYT’s article. These people are a bunch of hypocrites.
Since when does NYT control what a public government website posts?
This lie is so stupid no one will believe it. This may just come back and bite Hoaxstraws, Maples, Negropontes and/or Rummys ass
November 4th, 2006 at 10:09 amHoekstra needs to spend more time in Iraq searching for those missing WMDs.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:18 amwow, this is truly sickening. He makes the documents public, and then complains when someone points out those documents that he made public.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:20 amHoekstra is a shameless political water-carrier for the Bush administration. He’s one of the incompetent rubber-stampers responsible for preventing legitimate oversight. He’s a cover up co-conspirator who will soon be ousted from his committee chairmanship. Sour grapes and fear of being forced to testify before House Democratic majority investigation committees is making him a little grumpy. Finger-pointing is SOP for Bush Republicans. Like all Bush republicans, his days of accountability are on the near horizon.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:25 amLets see-
* Ignoring warnings that allowed 9/11 to occur – check
* Anthrax attackers never located
* Osama bin Laden never located
* Lieing about intelligence to invade and start an unjust war
* No real effort to provide immediate relief in the Katrina disaster
* Draining our Treasury and adding Trillions to our debt
* Outing CIA NOC’s who are tasked with tracking WMD in the ME
* Massive corruption by war companies front by Dick Cheney
* Putting “How to Build a Nuke” on the internet.
Incompetence or by design? Does the definition of treasom make a distinction? The GOP is not a Party, it’s a crime Syndicate.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:35 amI wonder how many of PH’s prepared TV and radio ads went into the dumpster yesterday.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:35 amI’m confused. Republicans can declassify the identity of a CIA agent responsible for the unit gathering information on Iran’s nuclear program, thus destroying that unit’s operation, and that’s ok, because they’re doing it to increase our safety. And Democrats want Terrorists to win.
The litany of things the Republicans have done to “increase our safety” is too long to go into here, because it would be a reposting of threads and news articles going back 6 years (longer, if you want to include the crimes of the Reagan era).
Now this. Republicans posting the designs of nuclear weapons on the internet, on a site freely available to the public, no hacking necessary. And they did it for purely political reasons. To prove what point? That Saddam had those designs? It actually proved that the UN Sanctions were incredibly effective. Saddam had the blueprints, but could not get the materials.
Now it is possible for rogue states all over the globe to have the blueprints. And they may not be as closely monitored as Saddam was. Only an insane person could still cling to the belief that Republicans are to be trusted to keep us safe.
Exley, Hendler? You’ve been noticiably absent from these threads. Please explain how it is ok for Republicans to publish nuclear armament blueprints on the web for political gain and wrong for the New York Times to call their actions into question.
Fortunately, the dissemination of this information can be tracked. All the government need to is trace the ISP of every computer that logged on to the site, then trace the internet connections of each of those computers ad infinitum. And investigate the movements of each person connected to each computer to ascertain whether or not printed copies of the web pages exist anywhere.
It will be easier now, with the Military Commissions Act, as anyone who visited the site may be deemed an unlawful enemy combatant and waterboarded until they reveal their contacts.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:37 amSpeaking of the Military Commissions Act, it was billed as allowing the suspects access to an attorney. Apparently that is not quite the case:
http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20061104/ap_on_go_ca_st_pe/terrorism_detainees
November 4th, 2006 at 10:41 ambut you know the really scary thing. at a minimum, 35-40% of the population will still accept that it was the fault of the NYT. being from KS, the reddest of the red, the excuses are accepted as gospel. especially since one of the main offenders is roberts.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:45 amRep. Peter Hoekstra is a traitor, clear and simple.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:48 amAll the government need to is trace the ISP of every computer that logged on to the site, then trace the internet connections of each of those computers ad infinitum.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
You’re assuming that the traffic was being recorded and monitored… You’re also assuming that our illustrious leadership understands how the internet works and how to set up website security to begin with. I would assume all that as well if I hadn’t been so disillusioned by these incompetents…
You also assume tat they would admit that this information HAD been compromised and seen by rogue states and terroists. Easier for them to say “Nope. Nothin here… Move along…” and hope no one calls them on it.
Accountability and Responsibility for one’s own actions… NOT the Republican’s strong point.
The buck stops here… until they pass it on to someone else or spend it.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:49 amRep. Peter Hoekstra (R-MI), chairman of the House Permanent Select Committee on Intelligence
Putting “Hoekstra” and “Intelligence” in the same sentence is hilarious. This is just another of the many nails being pounded into the Republican coffin only days before the mid-term election.
It is definitely time to clean house. Right now, we can get rid of the Keystone Kops. In 2008, we mercifully will be rid of GDumbya and Dick the Prick and their incompetent Cabinet.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:52 amFolks in Michigan don’t fall for this stuff. Hoekstra is busted. He pushed this shit because he was lying about WMD.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:59 amThis is typical of this admininstration. Blame the messenger for its stupid and criminal acts. These people should be in jail rather than in the white house.
November 4th, 2006 at 10:59 amThis lie is so stupid no one will believe it.
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 4, 2006 @ 10:09 am
Unless you are a Bush cultist, in which case there is no lie too stupid, no scenario too outlandish, no statement too preposterous for you to believe it.
Wait for the trolls to show up and start spewing nonsense about the NYT’s “treason”, and how they have “aided the terrorists”. And/or it is all a liberal ploy to gain votes.
You just wait and see.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:13 amThis lie is so stupid no one will believe it.
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 4, 2006 @ 10:09 am
According to the current CNN poll, 32% of people (with computer access and an inclination to visit a news website at that) believe that Bigfoot exists… Given that, I’m pretty certain that there are some who will buy this latest neocon nonsense as well.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:24 amGregor is correct, the sheep will chime in with the same old drool that the libruls want the terrorists to win and we hate America. Well they have the later partially correct. I really hate what these asshooles have done to America, they have destroyed the great country most of us don’t recognize as the one we grew up in. If these chumps get the boot this Nov.7 we can begin some repairing of the wingnut power grab. I really do hate the America they want and hope we can get even a portion of what we had before back. Assclowns like Hoekstra are criminal Bush asskissers and deserve nothing but a rope around their necks and vultures picking their dead flesh.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:28 amYou just wait and see.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — November 4, 2006 @ 11:13 am
Do we have to? : )
I think this issues help solidify the argument about people who rely on authority figures, instead of their own lying eyes (or logic) to form opinions about things. That those who attach blind faith in these authority figures, really are sheep, lemmings, cattle for the slaughter.
As George Washington said, “If the freedom of speech is taken away then dumb and silent we may be led, like sheep to the slaughter.” It works with ‘given away’ just as well…
November 4th, 2006 at 11:31 amBlame the messenger for bringing you the bad news. NYTimes didn’t put it up there. They didn’t even report on classified information this time.
But of course, instead of reporting on the facts of the situation there will be a fair and balanced coverage of the event giving Hackstra equal time to spin the story.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:32 amAccording to the current CNN poll, 32% of people (with computer access and an inclination to visit a news website at that) believe that Bigfoot exists…
Comment by unbelievable
Bigfoot does exist, and now he has the plans to create a nuclear device. If the Yeti gets the fissable material we are all screwed.
Or maybe Al Quaida will beat them to the punch…
November 4th, 2006 at 11:33 amMy Letter to Bill Kristol for Steven Hayes and Rep Hoekstra. Please write your Editor, their actions placing politics before National Security is treasonous and DESTROYS any last talking pount of GOP.
Mr. Kristol,
What position do you take now that it has been shown the Operation Iraqi Freedom documents incorrectly released, to the objection of Negraponte, NIE and Intelligence agencies, has been a grievous breach to National Security aiding our enemy? Directly responsible for such treasonous and self serving criminal activity and negligence is the manipulative and coercive acts of Steven Hayes and Rep. Steven Hoekstra.
http://www.perrspectives.com/blog/archives/000483.htm
When will he apologize for being wrong? When will he take accountability for participating in a grievous error? When will Steven Hayes be fired? His credibility and your credibility is on the line. Quite simply your blind zealotry to find justifications for the Iraq mistake blinded you to place pride before National Security. Sounds familiar doesn’t it?
In the likely event you will be ignoring this e-mail, we will pursue these investigations in the Democratic led Congress and work toward subpoenas for you, Mr. Hayes, and Mr Hoekstra.
Time to be a man, take responsibility and fire those on your staff who blew it. Ignoring such a treasonous event makes you complicit in the crime subverting National Security.
I await your response.
Dan Reynolds
November 4th, 2006 at 11:38 amThis lie is so stupid no one will believe it. This may just come back and bite Hoaxstraws, Maples, Negropontes and/or Rummys ass
Comment by Dog_named_Boo
You have way to much faith in the US population. 37% of our fellow citizens still think bush is doing a good job.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:41 amDo we have to? : )
Comment by unbelievable — November 4, 2006 @ 11:31 am
I know you are joking but… after typing that comment I went back to the previous thread on this subject and -lo and behold!- there is already a post along the llines of “The NYT is once again helping the terrorists”. It is the last one, I think.
The Bush administration screws the pooch, and it’s the NYT’s fault?
There is no holding this administration accountable with these nincompoops, is there? I really do wonder what in the world is wrong with these people.
I think this issues help solidify the argument about people who rely on authority figures
Absolutely. I already dread Thanksgiving dinner with my in-laws. They are Republican to the core, and faithful followers of everything Bush.
Ugh.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:44 amBigfoot does exist, and now he has the plans to create a nuclear device.
Comment by Technodaoist — November 4, 2006 @ 11:33 am
Personally, I think Bush looks more like a chimpanzee… :)
November 4th, 2006 at 11:46 amI have a question. What are the chances that voters in his district will send this guy to the oblivion of the garbage pail of history? If they don’t, then in my opinion they are as guilty of treason as he is.
November 4th, 2006 at 11:49 amFrom Yahoo:
“Saddam has been on trial for murder and crimes against humanity and, if convicted, could be sentenced to death by hanging. Violence is already running high, with police finding the bodies of 87 torture victims throughout the capital between 6 a.m. Thursday and 6 p.m. Friday. Across Iraq, at least 16 people were killed or found dead on Saturday.”
Question: If removing Saddam Hussein from power is such a great thing (as the regular trolls declare), then why ever would we worry about excalated violence in Baghdad?
November 4th, 2006 at 11:51 amThe Bush administration screws the pooch, and it’s the NYT’s fault?
So that’s why he cares about Barney’s opinion on his Iraq policy… : )
There is no holding this administration accountable with these nincompoops, is there? I really do wonder what in the world is wrong with these people.
You know my response: religion.
One of my good friends says “God will take care of so-and-so on Judgment Day.” Or something to that effect with Devils and eternal fire while laughing (basically to absolve himself from the responsibility of knowing about it and doing nothing to stop it). People who think there’s a higher power to take care of things are missing the molested children, and cancer patients presently being ignored by the supposed authority, so why not be delusional about other folks at the helm as well?
Absolutely. I already dread Thanksgiving dinner with my in-laws. They are Republican to the core, and faithful followers of everything Bush.
Comment by Gregor Samsa — November 4, 2006 @ 11:44 am
Ugh… My traditional Republican brother invited me to spend Christmas with his family, even though he knows I don’t celebrate it. I don’t think I’ll be feeling well about December 23rd… Maybe you won’t be feeling so well on November 23rd yourself? : )
November 4th, 2006 at 12:03 pmForget about this nuclear documents crap! I want more information on Ted Haggard hanging out with Bush at the White House, with Jeff Gannon the male hooker doing them both > the press needs to report on that!
November 4th, 2006 at 12:05 pmI want to see a campaign commercial with this story side-by-side with the “these are the stakes” ad…at the same time they were whipping up fears about terrorism, they were exposing plans to build an atomic bomb–IN ARABIC!
At the same time they they were proclaiming their superior moral character, a pastor in charge of 14,000 and president of an organization of 30 million was getting a massage from a male prostitute while smoking crystal meth.
At the same time they were saying “The policy is to stay the course,” the president was saying “The policy has never been ’stay the course.’”
It just goes on…
November 4th, 2006 at 12:07 pmWhere’s Exley? teeheehee…
November 4th, 2006 at 12:08 pmNo single person has ever been arrested or on trial for 911 – Bush even said himself of Bin Laden “I don’t spend much time thinking about him” … that’s because he never did it. Ever hear of the word “Patsy”?
Bush also shipped all of the fallen buildings steel overseas. Does this sound like a man determined to get to the bottom of this horrible attack?
It’s an impossibility that a few guys living in a cave on the other side of the world with just a few flimsy-ass box-cutters was able to get NORAD to stand down, successfully hijack all these planes and fly the maneuvers these planes performed.
Do you know how many billions of dollars in Gold from many different country’s was in the trade centers?
That the bomb sniffing dogs (which are always there) had been pulled out 3 days before 911 happened? Marvin Bush (the president)s brother was in charge of wiring up the security system for the World Trade Center (or bombs) … the list just keeps going.
Building 7 alone happened to contain all the information about the economic terrorism that Bush & Cheney along with Enron attacked California with …
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2002/09/17/eveningnews/main522332.shtml
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2004/06/08/eveningnews/main621856.shtml
People need to wake up and quit accepting the “Government version” of things… just follow the money-trail.
November 4th, 2006 at 12:10 pmAnother vivid example of Republicans putting their own political concerns ahead of the safety of the this Nation and the world. This is just moronic and despicable.
November 4th, 2006 at 12:18 pm… to say the least…
“The Gang that couldn’t shoot straightâ€
November 4th, 2006 at 12:33 pmBy: John Amato @ 11:47 AM – PST
I know it probably pained them to say it, but that’s what Nora and Andrea Mitchell are calling the White House and the right wing bloggers for forcing the release of Saddam’s documents.
http://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/03/the-gang-that-couldnt-shoot-straight/
.
Some of the offenses triable under Bush’s Military Commissions Act of 2006:
Providing Material Support for Terrorism
Wrongfully Aiding the Enemy
Conspiracy
Under the broad reach of the term “conspiracy” anyone who has ever donated to the Republican Party may be named a co-conspirator. I’m sure the interrogation methods authorized by this Administration, which don’t amount to torture, will be most helpful in flushing out the entire Reich-wing conspiracy.
November 4th, 2006 at 12:37 pmThis just proves that the republicans are in their last throes, if you will.
November 4th, 2006 at 12:44 pm[...] :sigh: It’s not just the Neo-cons—the entire Conservative movement seems to consist of people who will accept no responsibility for their actions, and are quick to blame everyone else—anyone else. Another case in point: Pete Hoekstra, contemptible US Senator: Hoekstra Pushed For Publication of Sensitive Nuclear Documents, Blames New York Times, IAEA [anyone but himself - LG] [...]
November 4th, 2006 at 12:46 pmMule, you don’t accept the Government’s Official Story about the events of 9/11?
Don’t you know it was the will of the wHoly Profit that the laws of physics be suspended?
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused pre-contact explosions on the walls of the Twin Towers micro seconds before the airliners hit.
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused reinforced steel and concrete to fail after only an hour and a half of exposure to a smokey oxygen-starved fire, whereas other buildings around the globe have withstood several hours of raging infernos without failing.
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused the sound and shock of explosions registering over 2 on the Richter-scale several seconds before each tower collapsed.
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused 90+ stories of steel and concrete to fall as fast as if the towers were in a vaccuum.
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused jet fuel and office materials to burn at the 3,000+ degrees necessary to leave pools of molten steel at the base of the twin towers.
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused cell phones to make completed calls from a jet traveling at 300+ miles per hour and over 10,000 feet in altitude.
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused a commercial jet airliner which plunged into the earth to leave wreckage strewn over an 8 mile path.
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused a jet with a 100′+ wingspan to fit into a 40′ hole in the Pentagon without leaving wreckage on the outside.
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused the nose of a commercial airliner to be hard enough to penetrate several feet of steel reinforced concrete.
Only the wHoly Profit could have caused these attacks to occur on the same day and in the same location as a NORAD exercise simulating these very kinds of attacks.
Only the wHoly Profit could have given the PNAC the “Pearl Harbor” incident which would justify their imperialistic and militaristic creation of a New American Century.
To doubt the Government’s Official Story is to doubt the will of the wHoly Profit. All true Americans give obsiesance to the wHoly Profit and obey His Word as spoken through His Representative on Earth, George, the Son Of a Bush.
November 4th, 2006 at 1:01 pm[...] first it was alternative interrogation techniques. not satified that america was sufficiently compromised, they posted on the internet instructions for building a nuclear bomb. conveniently, those instructions were in arabic. The Bush administration has told a federal judge that terrorism suspects held in secret CIA prisons should not be allowed to reveal details of the “alternative interrogation methods” that their captors used to get them to talk. [...]
November 4th, 2006 at 1:02 pmI hereby volunteer for border patrol duty, that I may assist in the apprehension of criminal legislators and administration oficials who will soon be attempting to flee prosecution and conviction by the American judicial system.
November 4th, 2006 at 1:07 pm(wHoly Profit) Excellent!!!!!!!
November 4th, 2006 at 1:10 pmMay I have your permission to use the term in daily conversation?
40 – better set up a command post in Paraguay.
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102×2567178
November 4th, 2006 at 1:10 pmThe IAEA inspectors are the ones who reported that Iraq had not been able to reconstruct its nuclear weapons program and that all materials under seal when the inspectors were kicked out were still under seal and accounted for when they went back.
But then, if Republicans want to post the blueprints, in Arabic, for how to make a nuclear bomb on the World Wide Web, I guess that makes it purely a U.S. domestic affair. Right. It’s none of the IAEA’s business if Republicans tell the world how to make a nuclear bomb. It’s not like they were revealing anything that might jeopardize international peace.
November 4th, 2006 at 1:17 pm41, certainly.
November 4th, 2006 at 1:18 pmOnly the wHoly Profit could have caused reinforced steel and concrete to fail after only an hour and a half of exposure to a smokey oxygen-starved fire, whereas other buildings around the globe have withstood several hours of raging infernos without failing.
You cannot compare the World Trade Towers to other buildings when it had a unique structural design that these other buildings did not have. There were also planes, on fire, inside each of them. To deny the fire is to suspend the laws of physics.
Respectable PBS has all the details of why the towers fell. If I can get my students to understand this, I really don’t know why intelligent grown adults refuse to… I really don’t.
http://www.pbs.org/wgbh/nova/wtc/
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — November 4, 2006 @ 1:01 pm
I can’t believe you fell for this…
November 4th, 2006 at 1:18 pmAgreed, I did follow up the leads on the Tri-Border Region…. and say, how ’bout our troops in Columbia, huh? Nobody seems to mention them…..
November 4th, 2006 at 1:19 pmAs far as Hoekstra goes, he will try to smuggle himself in a Waste Management truckload of toxic waste across the border at Sarnia/Port Huron.
OK everyone, we all know the Republican drill:
November 4th, 2006 at 1:28 pmIt’s not their fault! It’s always someone else’s fault – Democrats, liberal media, Clinton, bloggers, whoever is the scapegoat du jour, sometimes even one of their own.
Roberts and Hoekstra have lied to the public for so long, they don’t even know they do it. They have blamed others for their sins for so long, they believe themselves to be totally blameless.
They believe their own propaganda!
You know my response: religion.
Comment by unbelievable — November 4, 2006 @ 12:03 pm
I grew up surrounded by very devout religious people: Uncles, aunts, cousins, neighbors, etc. and I don’t ever recall the kind of talk you mention. For the most part, my extended family is very reasonable and have a sound sense of right and wrong. There is none of this Rapture/Armageddon talk.
In my opinion, it has a lot to do with the denomination they belong to: They are do not follow any of the “out there” cults. I further believe it also has to do with socio-economic and educational background. My relatives, without being wealthy, were able to pay good schools for all their children -some of whom have PhDs- and to this day, I yet have to hear them mention the Rapture as an imminent event.
I can’t believe you fell for this…
Comment by unbelievable — November 4, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
Oh no!
More 9/11 conspiracy theories!?
::sigh::
Can we try not to fall into an endless back-and-forth on 9/11, please?
November 4th, 2006 at 1:37 pmUnbelievable,
the “official version” including the PBS documentary does not address the items I posted above. It is, quite frankly, unbelievable. Even the PBS slide show on your link raises a question. If the commercial jet aircraft disintegrated upon impact, how was there enough mass and energy to completely destroy 10 steel reinforced inner core support pillars?
I’ve seen far more than the PBS documentary now, and I have serious questions; questions that are not answered by the official version. A theory of how the towers fell must account for all the details. The presentation on your link fails to do so. Please, research the events further and explain how the official version can answer the points I made above.
I realize what it means to reject the official story. It means to accept the possibility that our own government, or at least a faction within our own government, was willing to sacrifice American lives in order to ascend to a position of power. Yet, in the aftermath of 9/11, isn’t that exactly what has happened? Have we not seen civil liberties diminished and the power of the President expand to the point of dictatorship?
Something to think about.
November 4th, 2006 at 1:46 pmYou cannot compare the World Trade Towers to other buildings when it had a unique structural design that these other buildings did not have. There were also planes, on fire, inside each of them. To deny the fire is to suspend the laws of physics.
Whenever the WTC conspiracy comes up, just live and let live. It’s like talking about errr.. depleted uranium.
But then, if Republicans want to post the blueprints, in Arabic, for how to make a nuclear bomb on the World Wide Web, I guess that makes it purely a U.S. domestic affair.
Waiting for Pakistan to offer a “Nuke-U-Want HowTo” bundle at basement prices, then tell the US to stop meddling in “domestic affairs” when Condy drops by!
November 4th, 2006 at 1:52 pmFirst, let me say that I am a Democrat and I’m really hoping that we take back at least the House on Nov. 7, although I’m not counting my chickens, given the various tactics we all know the Repubs are capable of. I have volunteered to help ferry people to the polls who don’t drive.
I also think Hoekstra is an idiot, and to blame the NYT for his and others’ efforts to put these Iraqi papers on the ‘Net, is beyond stupid, and completely in character for Hoekstra et al.
But I still have a different perspective, one I haven’t yet seen posted on my various favorite lefty blogs. Which is this: I’m not particularly concerned that instructions for making nuclear weapons were part of these Iraqi papers. I believe that that information was already out there. People wanting to make such weapons have ways of finding this information.
I believe in free sharing of information in almost all circumstances. I believe that classifying information is usually a waste of time and that usually when attempts are made to classify, it’s to hide some sort of underhanded deeds. I believe that there really isn’t anything such thing as “state secrets”.
That said, I will reiterate that Pete Hoekstra and those who agree with him are completely wrong in this case. He and the others who promoted mounting these papers did so in the desperate hope that they would somehow prove that Iraq had WMDs as of 2003, and had significant ties with Al Qaeda. This was a stupid hope, and Hoekstra et al are the ones at fault here, NOT the NYT!
November 4th, 2006 at 2:04 pmOK, is it me, or is it that there no longer is anyone in the Republican Party willing to take responsibility for anything?
November 4th, 2006 at 2:05 pmthe “official version†including the PBS documentary does not address the items I posted above.
First of all, it’s not a choice between just these two things. Both are biased, and neither is credible. If I don’t ascribe to organized religion, I’m not going to accept other people’s explanations without proof. I have seen proof for neither version, and therefore, based on my education and real experience as an architect, came to my own conclusion.
The PBS site doesn’t address what you posted above because those things are not based on facts. It’s like trying to prove that something doesn’t exist, or didn’t happen.
It is the burden of those who claim this position to provide facts. You only posted, nearly verbatim, the Inside Job Theory’s opinions. I’ve seen no facts from them either – just unequal comparisions to other buildings under different circumstances. You know that you can’t do that and expect to be taken seriously…
It is, quite frankly, unbelievable.
Is this really you? Usually the trolls or extreme left nutjobs say this…
Even the PBS slide show on your link raises a question. If the commercial jet aircraft disintegrated upon impact, how was there enough mass and energy to completely destroy 10 steel reinforced inner core support pillars?
If it disintegrated upon impact? You’re hinging your credibility on if?
You’re also trying to force me to disprove your explanation, instead of considering that the plane impact did something else…
I don’t believe the plane destroyed the inner columns based on study of statics (structural physics), strength of materials and all those other really difficult structural courses.
The planes, more likely, just knocked off the fire-proofing, and allowed the immediate and intense fire to do what we put the fire-proofing there to prevent – weaken the steel. That’s all that has to happen. It just has to weaken it enough for it to fail. Very plausible and the more simple explanation. It’s my acceptance of Occum’s Razor that leads me to understand that the simplest explanation is usually the right one.
I’ve seen far more than the PBS documentary now, and I have serious questions; questions that are not answered by the official version.
But that doesn’t automatically mean that this opposing Inside Job Theory is true either. There are other explanations that are reality based that exclude both, and include both. That’s what I’ve been trying to suggest for the last 6 months, but no one seems to be willing to form their own hypothesis – just pick a side and fight like crazy.
A theory of how the towers fell must account for all the details. The presentation on your link fails to do so. Please, research the events further and explain how the official version can answer the points I made above.
All the details? That’s a tall order. They were trying to educate the average person with an IQ of about 110. It wasn’t meant to be a 4 year education in building design.
Again, I do not subscribe to teh Official Version. And I have researched the matter enough, as well as practiced as an architect for 14 years. I know what I’m talking about.
I realize what it means to reject the official story. It means to accept the possibility that our own government, or at least a faction within our own government, was willing to sacrifice American lives in order to ascend to a position of power.
When have I ever hesitated to do that? I do it all the time. Are you sure this is you?
Yet, in the aftermath of 9/11, isn’t that exactly what has happened? Have we not seen civil liberties diminished and the power of the President expand to the point of dictatorship?
It’s why I think Bush is an accomplice to 9/11. By his failure to act, and perhaps, his willingness to ignore what was about to happen. That makes sense. Him orchetsrating it does not. All I have to do is look at every thing he’s touched to see that he is and always has been a failure. But this one time, he succeeded? Maybe. But you’ll have to prove it, and so far, I’ve only seen opinions.
Something to think about.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — November 4, 2006 @ 1:46 pm
Sorry, but not really. For someone who was educated on this subject (the building aspect), and practiced it for a decade and a half, and now teaches it, I think the Inside Job explanations are without facts. So far, I’ve just seen a lot of opinions and comparisions to other buildings that are neither like the Trade Towers or under similar circumstances.
November 4th, 2006 at 2:20 pmGregor,
Perhaps it was growing up in the Bible Belt that has an impact on the religious culture? I’ve heard that explanation a lot around here, even though my friend was raised in Pennsylvania and Southern Florida, and is Catholic.
November 4th, 2006 at 2:37 pmWhenever the WTC conspiracy comes up, just live and let live. It’s like talking about errr.. depleted uranium.
Comment by El Tonno — November 4, 2006 @ 1:52 pm
It drives me nuts when liberals tell others to shut up… No, I won’t. This impacts my profession and I have a right to be offended by it.
Actually, it’s more like discussing religion. There’s a lot of blind faith involved…
November 4th, 2006 at 2:39 pmFor more details on the role of Hoekstra, Santorum, Powerline, Instapundit, Michelle Malkin et al in making nuclear secrets available to Iran, see:
November 4th, 2006 at 2:42 pm“Documents of Mass Destruction: GOP Puts Party Before National Security with Iraq Papers.”
The Times and others are already complicit in crimes against humanity, and knowing promotion of falsehoods that lead us into an ilegal invasion of Iran. Yhey should pay more attention to what Scott Ritter reports about Iran and less attention to the known liars.
They should be held accountable at the Hague along with the neocons.
November 4th, 2006 at 2:52 pm– Unbelievable.
Actually, it was the slide show on your link which claimed that the planes disintegrated upon impact, yet also completly destroyed 6 of the heavy inner core columns in one building and 10 in the other.
At this point I am questioning. Seriously questioning.
November 4th, 2006 at 3:40 pmThis ‘blame the NY Times’ defense is getting old. Hoekstra is to blame along with his cohorts. What an idiot!
November 4th, 2006 at 3:58 pmRepublicans are accustomed to saying whatever comes to mind and doing whatever they want with impunity because no one with integrity has been in a position to hold them accountable. Hoekstra’s criminal/traitorous negligence is going to be on the new Democratic House majority’s to-do-list. Republicans still seem to in denial about what’s going to happen to them when House Democrats have supboena power.
November 4th, 2006 at 4:59 pmAt this point I am questioning. Seriously questioning.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire — November 4, 2006 @ 3:40 pm
As you should. It’s what Thomas Jefferson expected from us.
But, you’re way too intelligent to adopt a conspiracy theory that is no more based on facts than the 9/11 Commission Report is based in reality.
In order to make the buildings that tall, they did something new with those towers – they put some of the structure at the core, and most of it along the exterior face. It was a new idea and it had not been done before (therefore it had not been tested in real world applications).
They used tube steel, which is, in section, shaped like a rectangle with rounded corners, and is hollow at the exterior wall.
After the planes took out one side of each building, the jet fuel (as the planes were filled just before take off), poured out and saturated the entire floor at impact, as well as several floors below. Think of how water acts when poured on the carpet – it quickly spreads. The jet fuel would have done the same, engulfing the entire floor with a uniform fire that evenly weaken the remaining 3 exterior structural faces, as well as the core columns that we were no longer fire proofed.
As a result of the distributed fire, the steel weakened to the point of failure. As a result, the structure above came crashing down upon itself. When things fall, they actually accelerate in their descent. So, think of an accelerating car hitting a brick wall. It’s basically the same – just in a horizontal application. You’re gonna destroy the wall you hit with that speeding car. Imagine what a falling 20 story building would do…
If you realize that the building that was impacted first fell last, you hold a big piece of the puzzle. The building that was hit first was hit higher up than the one that was hit second. As a result, the size and weight of the part of the building that was being held up by the weakening structure was the deciding factor in how long the building held. If there had been explosives, they would have fallen at relatively the same duration between explosion and fall, because the explosions would have evenly distributed the damage. The fact that the first tower fell last suggests that explosives were not present, and the towers indeed fell as a result of the plane crashes alone.
I saw the documentary filmed by the guy who was in the first tower. The ‘explosions’ eye-witnesses were describing seemed to actually be the fall out from the damage and the collapsing building hitting the building, cars and the street. Hitting a car with a piece of steel that had fallen 800′ would create quite a racket…
November 4th, 2006 at 6:10 pmCNN Late Edition Preview for 11/05/06…
CNN Late
November 4th, 2006 at 6:33 pmEdition (Wolf Blitzer)
Below are the topics and guests announced for
this program, along with my take on the “memes” that the show is trying to
push. With each guest’s name are a series of links that I found in a web search
that…
“Select Committee on Intelligence” eh? Is this the kind of ‘intelligence’ the select committe comes up with? I fear for our national defense…
November 4th, 2006 at 7:11 pmIf this doesn’t scare the Hell out of you
By: John Amato @ 2:50 PM – PST
Digby:
November 4th, 2006 at 7:26 pmhttp://www.crooksandliars.com/2006/11/04/if-this-doesnt-scare-the-hell-out-of-you/
.
[...] including what I believe are improper efforts by the IAEA to interfere with U.S. domestic affairs [...]
And yet, IAEA’s authority is never questioned when it suits the Bush administration, i.e., regarding Iraq, and now Iran.
Not only nobody in the Bush administration ever says anything about IAEA’s “improper interference” in Iran’s internal affairs, they pressure both the IAEA tougher measures and Iran for more openness.
I guess what is good for the goose is not good for the gander.
November 5th, 2006 at 2:56 am[...] Atomic Secrets: Traded for drugs. Or posted on the internet for someone’s idea of political gain by BushCo, despite a knowledge of risk and warnings recently that the stuff online was too dangerous to have up there. Only taken down when the media caught on as to how dangerous the stuff was. [...]
November 5th, 2006 at 8:42 am[...] Thanks for being from my home state, asshole. [...]
November 12th, 2006 at 10:40 pmWill Hoekstra be going to jail anytime soon for producing the flaky, inaccurate and dangerous report on Iran? The International Atomic Energy Agency dismissed his report on Iran as false! This guy is dangerous!
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