From Ted Haggard’s sermon last week,
By on Nov 6th, 2006 at 12:50 pm
From Ted Haggard’s sermon last week,
four days before accusations of his gay affair became public: “Heavenly Father give us grace and mercy, help us this next week and a half as we go into national elections and Lord we pray for our country. Father we pray lies would be exposed and deception exposed. Father we pray that wisdom would come upon our electorate …”
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Be careful what you wish for…
November 6th, 2006 at 12:53 pmAsk and ye shall receive….
November 6th, 2006 at 12:53 pmAsk and yea shall receive
November 6th, 2006 at 12:53 pm“Father we pray lies would be exposed and deception exposed. ”
Talk about an answered prayer!
November 6th, 2006 at 12:54 pmHaleluia! Amen! Prayers were answered and lies have been exposed! Let’s hope the second half of that prayer is answered too, and the American people have the wisdom to throw the hypocrites out.
November 6th, 2006 at 12:55 pmAHHHHH!
The power of prayer!
November 6th, 2006 at 12:55 pmI live in Colorado and this doesn’t surprise me at all. Maybe there is a God after all.
November 6th, 2006 at 12:55 pmREAD YOUR BIBLE AMERICA
“Ye though I say unto you, they shall raise up the least among them to the highest post and he shall appear as a monkee. The sheep shall follow and the lies shall flow like water from the sea. They sahll believe his deceptions and follow him unto war with the wrong nation. And Cheney wil shoot a guy in the face.
Lobotomy 9:11
November 6th, 2006 at 12:57 pmtalk about a self-fulfilling prophesy
November 6th, 2006 at 12:58 pmPraise Jebus!
November 6th, 2006 at 12:59 pmThis PROVES there is a higher power. Or at least proves you can only BS for so long.
The only prayers being answered lately are Democratic prayers.
November 6th, 2006 at 12:59 pmand he did!
November 6th, 2006 at 1:03 pmWhat if his entire history of homophobic sermonizing was just a way to make his sex life hotter?
November 6th, 2006 at 1:05 pmThe Lord works in mysterious ways, eh Ted?
November 6th, 2006 at 1:05 pmfunny how he talks about his self so much. isn’t he bitchen to be so cool about being so damn cool! gosh it must be need to be so cool. wonder how you get as cool as him? is there a book?
November 6th, 2006 at 1:06 pmA butt slamin’ pre-emptive strike, if you will.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:06 pmAs if praying to non-existent characters from ancient fairy tales would do any good for anything.
Man, the phony crap that some people will fall for!
November 6th, 2006 at 1:08 pmWell, if you can’t terrorize people with myths about WMDs and mushroom clouds, then terrorize them with myths about gods and demons and hellfire and Jesus.
Idiots will believe anything!
November 6th, 2006 at 1:10 pmSo this means he DOES have the ear of god, so the administration (and America) should listen to him, and obey him, even more now, it’s like he’s the new Jebus.
SAVE ME JEBUS err… I mean Haggard, or just hurry up and die for my sins, either way works for me.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:13 pmIt’s getting to the point now that whenever I hear someone screaming against something as loudly as Ted was against homosexuality, I wonder if it’s a cry for help, and that the person screaming has a personal problem with the subject. Rush Limbaugh said drug users should go to jail. (Help me get off drugs!) Mark Foley took to the floor of the House and denounced internet child predators (Stop me, please!) And Ted Haggard talked about the damnation awaiting homosexuals. (Forgive me, Lord!)
So, look around at who is screaming the loudest against something, and I bet they have a secret little problem with it themselves. For example, is there anyone in Congress screaming about bribe-taking? What about rampant drug use? Infidelity? Gambling? Let’s look at them closely. Might as well find out now instead of after they get themselves re-elected.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:14 pmAh. Mission Accomplished!
November 6th, 2006 at 1:15 pmJesusChrist_GodOfWar
Sir/Ma’am
November 6th, 2006 at 1:19 pmWith all due respect, you have the best screen name on the internets, bar none.
From “GOP Quotes of the Week, Pre-Election Edition”…
“I am a deceiver and a liar. There’s a part of my life that is so repulsive and dark that I have been warring with it all of my adult life.”
Ted Haggard, November 5, 2006.
“We don’t have to debate about what we should think about homosexual activity, it’s written in the Bible.”
Ted Haggard, from the film “Jesus Camp,” 2006.
“Just think of what we could accomplish…if we spent less time on our soapboxes and more time on our knees.”
November 6th, 2006 at 1:20 pmTom Delay, May 5, 2006.
The only prayers being answered lately are Democratic prayers.
God’s a liberal. If he were conservative he would have never allowed Adam and Eve to run around naked, the apple tree would have been cut down in favor of building a factory that makes plactic fruit basket centerpieces, and the whole Sunday ‘day of rest’ thing would be gone in a flash.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:21 pm“There are more tears shed over answered prayers than over unanswered prayers.”
——Saint Theresa of Jesus
November 6th, 2006 at 1:23 pmIdiots will believe anything!
Man, the phony crap that some people will fall for!
Comment by RantingTommy — November 6, 2006 @ 1:08 pm
http://abcnews.go.com/ sections/ us/ DailyNews/ beliefnet_poll_010718.html
Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians.
Do you not get it? Everytime I come on here someone is slamming religion hard. Ummmmm 83% of the voters believe in it. Calling them stupid and idiots is not really the way to get them to come to your side and see what your about.
If only 30% of the population supports Bush and they are the biggest idiots out there, what does that say for the 17% of us that don’t believe in God?
November 6th, 2006 at 1:24 pmHow many gays and lesbians were killed or beaten in the name of Jesus because of Ted Haggard’s rantings against them…while he was having gay sex on the sly. It does make you wonder if condemning other people for what he was doing made sex even hotter for him.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:24 pmWhere’s Daryll? Won’t he/she/it show up to tell all what God thinks and what God’s plans are? Just like the sanctimonious mr. haggard does?
Here’s a question that I have for them, Daryll and the rest of the “flock†that is. If the Iraq “mission” was born of the will of God, why is it failing so miserably and wraught with such evil and corruption? Is God fallible?
Or is it that the mission’s master is of the corrupt earth bound ilk or, even, sub-terrainian?
Can I get an “amen”!
Peace.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:25 pmYes Haggard fortold his own outing as a closeted hypocritcal liar who used deception to fool the entire membership of his church! Personally I think his drug addiction to crystal meth was more disgusting, than him hiring a male escort for sex! Ted is really a self-loathing homosexual who needs therapy to accept his being a Gay man!
November 6th, 2006 at 1:29 pm#22 - JesusChrist_GodOfWar
Sir,
With all due respect, you have the best screen name on the internets, bar none.
The Internets thank you. :)
It seems the only thing christians seem to care about is if someone “believes” in Jesus. Yet, BushBot christians completely/utterly fail to realize how rediculous they look to the world at large.
Following american christian thought, Jesus would condone war and the bombing of innocents. I fail to see how this is any better than the Taliban/al Qeada that these self same christians love to hate.
Pot. Kettle. Hypocrits!
November 6th, 2006 at 1:33 pm“Just think of what we could accomplish…if we spent less time on our soapboxes and more time on our knees.â€
Tom Delay, May 5, 2006
Gannon agrees.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:33 pmTundra make a decent point: 83% of this country considers themselves Christian.
Being a sheep has everything to do with the lack of critical thinking skills. It just so happens that some religous people forgo critical thinking and attribute their beliefs to faith. In this country, since most religous people are Christian, it merely seems that only Christians are sheep.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:34 pmI think maybe Daryll is in a room somewhere on his knees talking to himself.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:34 pmIdiots will believe anything!
Man, the phony crap that some people will fall for!
Comment by RantingTommy — November 6, 2006 @ 1:08 pm
http://abcnews.go.com/ sections/ us/ DailyNews/ beliefnet_poll_010718.html
Eighty-three percent of Americans identify themselves as Christians.
Do you not get it? Everytime I come on here someone is slamming religion hard. Ummmmm 83% of the voters believe in it. Calling them stupid and idiots is not really the way to get them to come to your side and see what your about.
If only 30% of the population supports Bush and they are the biggest idiots out there, what does that say for the 17% of us that don’t believe in God?
Comment by Tundra — November 6, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
How about “The duped masses?”
“The victims of superstition?”
“The uneducated”
It’s easy to stop being ignorant; Just learn about the world around you. It’s when people are willfully ignorant (ie they refuse to believe they might be wrong or don’t care to find out) that they turn into idiots.
Besides, not all believers are idiots, just those who have closed their minds so much that they no longer question anything they are told by men like Haggard. Yes, they are very much idiots.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:39 pmI really don’t care if I offend Christians. I don’t care if I offend crazy people. Belief in gods, demons, heaven, hell, etc is evidence of insanity.
I’m tired of having to tip-toe around the fact that religion is a form of insanity. Religious assholes can say anything and defend it as religion, but, if you point out how obviously ludicrous the stories in the bible are, they get bent out of shape.
It’s pathetic, and I, for one, am tired of it. If you don’t want to be ridiculed, don’t claim that superstitions are real. Period.
November 6th, 2006 at 1:40 pmEvery Christian Hate Monger is
It’s amusing. Every Christian hate monger who screams his hate and bigotry from the Christian pulpet is a closet homosexual who hates himself as much as he hates everyone else.
Now we need to see which new hate filled Christian monster that the mass murdering Christian butcher in the White House adopts as his new “spiritual advisor” now that this hate filled Christian monster is exposed.
Isn’t Christianity wonderful?
November 6th, 2006 at 3:33 pmthanks God.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:34 pmGod damned scumbags!!!
This god damned f*king hate mongering bigot!
This monster is still demanding that homosexuality — his own inate core — is some how “immoral.”
Jesus f*ken H. Christ these mother f*kers don’t deserve to live in the United States leave alone fill the mass murdering Christian terrorist in the White House with further ideas of atrocities and crimes against humanity.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:36 pmRantingTommy
Where did you get your doctorate in psychology and in what state are you licensed to make a diagnosis of insanity?
November 6th, 2006 at 3:38 pmWhatever you do in the dark will be brought out into the light.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:39 pmIt’s easy to stop being ignorant; Just learn about the world around you. It’s when people are willfully ignorant (ie they refuse to believe they might be wrong or don’t care to find out) that they turn into idiots.
And you are 100% sure they are completely wrong?
November 6th, 2006 at 3:43 pm40 Daryll
Now, there is a post of yours that I can agree with. Excellent point.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:43 pmSounds more like a cry for help to me.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:45 pmCan you see anti-matter?
November 6th, 2006 at 3:48 pmDo you not get it? Everytime I come on here someone is slamming religion hard. Ummmmm 83% of the voters believe in it. Calling them stupid and idiots is not really the way to get them to come to your side and see what your about.
I think you don’t get it. We don’t want them to come to our side. We want them to leave us alone. It’s them trying to force their religion on us that we’re trying to repell.
Besides, they hate us. Being nice and tolerating them hating us makes us victims. Makes them think they can oppress us and we will tolerate it (because we have). This is a movement among Atheists as it has been for women, blacks and gays, to be vocal, in our case, to stand up to the Christonazis and demand freedom FROM religion. Maybe we’re a bit angry about it, as we have a right to be, and that will temper with some time.
But telling us to shut up not only violates our right to free speech, but it encourages us to speak out more.
If only 30% of the population supports Bush and they are the biggest idiots out there, what does that say for the 17% of us that don’t believe in God?
Comment by Tundra — November 6, 2006 @ 1:24 pm
You cannot compare the two - it’s not a similar analogy.
There are more Atheists in America now than there are Jews in the world. We’re making strides, and I’m convinced that we’ll make more by not being silent. Sure, I admit, we get defensive at times, but so do most groups who are fighting against oppression - and we are fighting against oppression. Stand on a street corner and introduce yourself to people you’ve never met as an Atheist. Tell me most wouldn’t care… Because you know they treat you like you just told them that you’re a leper.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:52 pmDaryll, I posted this on an earlier thread and maybe you didn’t see it, but I’d really like your response:
I have asked a number of fundamentalists a question, without an answer, so maybe you’d like to try.
Provide me even ONE secular reason (i.e., a way in which there will be a negative effect on “our society/economyâ€) due to gay marriage.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:54 pmWhatever you do in the dark will be brought out into the light.
Comment by Daryll
Said Haggard as the gay male hooker yanked the door open for all too see.
November 6th, 2006 at 3:55 pmI believe in string theory spaghetti men and anti-matter reptilians that live beside us!
November 6th, 2006 at 3:57 pm[…] Ted Haggard’s sermon last week, […]
November 6th, 2006 at 3:57 pmBirth Control sales!
[Im kidding]
November 6th, 2006 at 3:58 pmWhatever you do in the dark will be brought out into the light.
Comment by Daryll — November 6, 2006 @ 3:39 pm
Daryll - Are you here to apologize for telling us we were lying about Reverend Ted being gay? To apologize for all those judgmental things you said when we told you that he was gay? Because if not, Daryll, Jesus is going to be really, really mad at you….
November 6th, 2006 at 3:59 pmI’m tired of having to tip-toe around the fact that religion is a form of insanity.
Comment by RantingTommy — November 6, 2006 @ 1:40 pm
All along human history, the overwhelming majority of cultures have been driven by religion.
I would be hard-pressed to call ancient Egyptians, Romans, Babylonians, Incas, etc., “insane”, given as it was that religion permeated every aspect of their everyday lives. Had they been insane and unable of rational thought, their cultures wouldn’t have attained the high level of refinement and sophistication they did.
if you point out how obviously ludicrous the stories in the bible are, they get bent out of shape.
Only Bible literalists get “bent out of shape”. The Christian denominations who see Biblical stories as allegories, do not have an issue pointing out how ludicrous it is to believe in talking serpents, or in man-swallowing fish.
If you don’t want to be ridiculed, don’t claim that superstitions are real.
Such anger. It seems you are bent on a confrontation. Maybe your real issue is with a specific denomination you recently abandoned?
November 6th, 2006 at 4:00 pmIf all lies were exposed, religion would cease to exist as religion is just a collection of lies.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:04 pmIt’s them trying to force their religion on us that we’re trying to repell.
All 82% of them are trying to force it down your throat?
Being nice and tolerating them hating us makes us victims.
So the better answer is to call all of them:
“The duped masses?â€
“The victims of superstition?â€
“The uneducatedâ€
“Idiots will believe anything!”
“Man, the phony crap that some people will fall for!”
Which by the way is what I was responding to. In your words it’s the absolutism about religious people that gets under my skin.
Call out Haggard, Jesse Jackson, Oral Roberts etc. Call them hippocrits whatever. Blanketing the whole group just shows of intolerance for a way of thinking that differs from your own.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:07 pmGod works in mysterious ways! The above blog that references something to the effect that these blogs are hateful to religion. Many people here don’t have a religion, and probably feel that religion has caused wars, suffering, lies , and deceit…as it has. But don’t forget that it isn’t God, Christ…that is the cause of these horrible actions in history, it’s people. So, I believe that most in these blogs are putting down the people that justify war, lies, murder in the name of God. Not God.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:10 pm52 Gregor Samsa
Well said, especially regarding the allegories.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:10 pmIt sucks to be Ted Haggard. Knowing that you are gay and being brainwashed into believing that it is wrong. God made the gay people right along with all the other people. The best thing anyone can do for themselves is to accept who they are and be okay with that. Being gay is not a choice; you are born that way or not.
Even this mother of five and grandma to two gets it. Why don’t the false Christians get it? If Jesus came to back today he would not advocate anything but love for the children of God. He will not be judging men on whether or not they are gay; Jesus will judge based on our actions. Did we help the poor; did we house the homeless; did we visit the sick and the elderly and those in prison, did we do for others who were less fortunate.
I feel sorry for Mr. Haggard, who obviously believes he is a sinner. You are not a sinner Mr. Haggard; you are a gay man in America. God made you gay and there is not a thing you can do to change that.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:13 pmSo would Politicians…
November 6th, 2006 at 4:13 pmIf all lies were exposed, religion would cease to exist as religion is just a collection of lies.
So would Politicians…
And a lot of happy marriages, ignorance is bliss after all.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:23 pmAnd a lot of happy marriages, ignorance is bliss after all.
Comment by squegeeboo — November 6, 2006 @ 4:23 pm
Or in your case stalker/stalkee relationships :)
November 6th, 2006 at 4:27 pmWow, imagine that! He prayed for his own downfall.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:30 pmAll 82% of them are trying to force it down your throat?
Why do you insist on building strawmen, when I’ve habitually made it clear that I do not believe in absolutes.
82%? Your first posts said 83%… So… they’ve lost a percentage point that quickly?
So the better answer is to call all of them:
“The duped masses?â€
“The victims of superstition?â€
“The uneducatedâ€
“Idiots will believe anything!â€
“Man, the phony crap that some people will fall for!â€
I didn’t say that either Tundra. Are you going to reference anything I did say - or just keep building an army of strawmen?
Which by the way is what I was responding to. In your words it’s the absolutism about religious people that gets under my skin.
What?
Call out Haggard, Jesse Jackson, Oral Roberts etc. Call them hippocrits whatever. Blanketing the whole group just shows of intolerance for a way of thinking that differs from your own.
Comment by Tundra — November 6, 2006 @ 4:07 pm
You’re the absolutist - not me. I’ve also said many times that I’m talking about the majority of them, not all of them. I think there is a slim minority of them who follow the Christ part, and not the organized religion part of Christianity. To otherwise attack strawmen just proves that you can’t actually debate my real premise - that Atheism must stand up to the Christonazi bullies and demand to be respected.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:34 pmUnbelievable
Atheism must stand up to the Christonazi bullies
I’m with you with this. I see you are trying to word your attacks to only those oppressive religious fanatics, without losing or distorting your personal philosophy, and I appreciate the effort. I also think your case is that much stronger when you do. Go get ‘em!
November 6th, 2006 at 4:39 pmI was discussing how calling all religous people idiots was counter productive.
That was the whole point of my post.
Nothing was directed at you.
It was directed at not calling all people that believe in god stupid.
You responded with a whole lot of “We” statements.
I’ve also said many times that I’m talking about the majority of them, not all of them. I think there is a slim minority of them who follow the Christ part
November 6th, 2006 at 4:39 pmTypical factual argument
Well said, especially regarding the allegories.
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — November 6, 2006 @ 4:10 pm
Thanks, PLC. I only have an issue with hypocrites, not with religion or religious people -most in my extended family are devout. Very devout.
My relatives do not preach, do not claim to have a direct line with God, or act privately in a way contrary to what they believe in. I love and respect them, and see no need to berate them by lumping them with the hypocritical Jesus freaks like Haggard.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:39 pmSee? God exists…as a 50 y/o male prostitute.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:41 pmTo Tundra: If only 30% of the population supports Bush and they are the biggest idiots out there, what does that say for the 17% of us that don’t believe in God?
What is your point?
November 6th, 2006 at 4:45 pmFish in a barrel.
Let’s concentrate on GOTV.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:48 pmI see you are trying to word your attacks to only those oppressive religious fanatics, without losing or distorting your personal philosophy, and I appreciate the effort. I also think your case is that much stronger when you do. Go get ‘em!
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — November 6, 2006 @ 4:39 pm
And later I’ll piss you off again because I won’t. It’s not a conscious decision to please you or any of the religious minority who aren’t hypocrites. I was trying to get Tundra to stop building strawmen and discuss the actual issue.
Just don’t take me personally. There are always exceptions and you are one of the rare few. You might be one of two or three around here. So, I don’t want the hypocrites I am addressing to think they are excluded. Which is why I won’t be tempering my posts. Sorry, as I said - no offense. I’ve just had enough of the “moral majority” and the fact that I cannot be openly Atheistic without being harrassed, judged or isolated. When Americans can openly be Atheists, then I’ll have nothing overtly critical to say about religion.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:51 pmGod gave Satan the boot in the butt and kicked him out. I wonder will the followers of Paster Haggard still follow Satan or will they vote for GOD this time.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:51 pm#67
To Tundra: If only 30% of the population supports Bush and they are the biggest idiots out there, what does that say for the 17% of us that don’t believe in God?
What is your point?
I think you might have just proved it.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:52 pmCan you see anti-matter?
Comment by Dog_named_Boo
Anti-matter can be proved to exist in cyclotrons. You cant do the same with God.
November 6th, 2006 at 4:55 pmNothing was directed at you.
Comment by Tundra — November 6, 2006 @ 4:39 pm
I’m just tired of us telling one another to shut-up, when it is our silence that forces us to be in the closet with our beliefs. We should support one another.
I don’t think people who believe in gods are stupid - they are culturally indocrinated to do so. And as I experienced, it’s very painful and difficult to change your beliefs.
Tommy reminds me of my brother when he first decided he was an Atheist (about a year before I did). He was angry. Let him be angry. This might just be one of the few places he can do that without being told to shut up, and where there are many people who understand how he feels to be unable to be an Atheist in public.
He’ll relax in time, when he’s vented and realizes that we need more factual and reasonable arguments than ‘you’re stupid’…
November 6th, 2006 at 4:56 pmI think you might have just proved it.
Comment by squegeeboo — November 6, 2006 @ 4:52 pm
Only if he’s not religious, which, according to Tundra’s stats is not likely considering the number of is in here who already are non-religious.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:00 pmAll along human history, the overwhelming majority of cultures have been driven by religion. Comment by Gregor Samsa
Because of ignorance.
I would be hard-pressed to call ancient Egyptians, Romans, Babylonians, Incas, etc., “insaneâ€, given as it was that religion permeated every aspect of their everyday lives. Had they been insane and unable of rational thought, their cultures wouldn’t have attained the high level of refinement and sophistication they did.
They were somehow sophisticated because of they had poets, engineers, farmers, hunters, libraries, crafts…mmm…no God there.
Only Bible literalists get “bent out of shapeâ€. The Christian denominations who see Biblical stories as allegories, do not have an issue pointing out how ludicrous it is to believe in talking serpents, or in man-swallowing fish.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:05 pmProbably, but they still believe in virgins having babies and almighty 3-entity unity that watches over us. Why not 4? Or 6 or 100? The whole idea of God for me is that people dont like the idea of just dying and nothing else happens and to have something to hold on in difficult times…as if somewhere, in sometime, this entity would had visited a human being in his desperation.
Unbelievable
I am WAY passed taking much personally and I don’t get pissed about anything you’ve posted. Quite honestly, you are a speck in my overall existence, so I’m not going to put that kind of emotional energy into your posts or in responding to you. I am not looking to be “pleased” by you. I just think you can make your sociopolitical arguments much better if you are more targeted, and I support your arguments generally. And I will continue to point that out to you and others when I think it’s called for. As you would say, if you don’t like that, don’t read my posts.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:10 pmNot according to Christanic mythology
> God gave Satan the boot in the butt and kicked him out.
No, the “Satan” goid was never “kicked out” of the Christanic heaven. It was the _followers_ of the “Satan” god that were kicked out of Eden. The “Satan” god started as just another god in the Elohim, one that wanted to be greater than the rest.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:12 pmBecause of ignorance.
Comment by Juan C — November 6, 2006 @ 5:05 pm
True as it might be, fact remains they were religious. Which is the point I was making.
They were somehow sophisticated because of they had poets, engineers, farmers, hunters, libraries, crafts…mmm…no God there.
You missed my point. If a religious belief -per se- kept you from making sound logical decisions, these civilisations wouldn’t have been possible because religion was embedded in everything they did.
Also, if religion was an impairing burden, Da Vinci, Raphael, Newton, Pasteur, Darwin, etc. would have been utterly incapacitated and wouldn’t created their works of art, or made their contributions to science.
Probably, but they still believe in virgins having babies and almighty 3-entity unity that watches over us.
Right, but that is not the point RantingTommy was making, was it?
November 6th, 2006 at 5:14 pm#75 Juan
The whole idea of God for me is that people dont like the idea of just dying and nothing else happens and to have something to hold on in difficult times…as if somewhere, in sometime, this entity would had visited a human being in his desperation.
And is there an issue with that? A lot of people need AA to stay on the wagon, to many people religion serves the same purpose, it’s a raft to cling to if your too weak to hold out on your own. And just like AA, it helps lots of people. (It also hurts lots too, but shush, that hurts my argument)
November 6th, 2006 at 5:15 pmComment by Gregor Samsa
You really know how to shut my mouth up. Good points. :)
November 6th, 2006 at 5:16 pmAlso, if religion was an impairing burden, Da Vinci, Raphael, Newton, Pasteur, Darwin, etc. would have been utterly incapacitated and wouldn’t created their works of art, or made their contributions to science.
There were 10 centuries when the occidental world was incapacitated.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:17 pmProbably, but they still believe in virgins having babies and almighty 3-entity unity that watches over us.
Not necessarily.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:19 pmAnd just like AA, it helps lots of people. (It also hurts lots too, but shush, that hurts my argument)
Comment by squegeeboo
I understand. I had a girlfriend who was an atheist before a bus rolled over the car where her kid and husband were. As he saw his kid get out of the car, uninjured something happened to her and she decided to believe in God. God is a human invention. Im not trying to be confrontional against anybody, Im just going with every known fact. If you can separate both, facts vs. beliefs, you may say there is God and hold on to him if that helps you, good. Really. But if you go with facts…there is no way you can say there is a God. Besides if there is a God, you dont need to defend him against me because I am certainly nothing to him.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:22 pmDaryll, I posted this on an earlier thread and maybe you didn’t see it, but I’d really like your response:
I have asked a number of fundamentalists a question, without an answer, so maybe you’d like to try.
Provide me even ONE secular reason (i.e., a way in which there will be a negative effect on “our society/economyâ€) due to gay marriage.
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — November 6, 2006 @ 3:54 pm
We won’t see an effect on our economy because of this issue, but this will effect our society because human reproduction will decrease. Biblically, you can’t fornicate with others for the purpose of reproduction. This is what the bible reflects, don’t blame me. Personally, I love everyone on earth regardless of Race, Creed, Sexuality, etc. Anybody will tell you, if you ever met me, I would treat you as my blood brother or sister, regardless of sin. I’m not perfect, but I strive to be more like God and I feel that everyone should do the same out of respect and honor for him. He didn’t have to die on the cross, but he did to save us from damnation. I can hang with any homosexual, even though I dislike the sin their committing. I just want your souls to be redeemed. I want to see as many in heaven as possible. Life is hard, but with Christ we can all make it. I would’ve never made it through college if it wasn’t for him. I have no issues with liberals except for a few of their ideals. Besides that, their alright with me.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:25 pmbecause religion was embedded in everything they did.
Comment by Gregor Samsa
My opinion is that your statement is wrong. It was faith, not religion. Religion uses the faith of people. I have faith, but I dont believe in any god. How can that be possible?
November 6th, 2006 at 5:25 pmThere were 10 centuries when the occidental world was incapacitated.
Comment by Juan C — November 6, 2006 @ 5:17 pm
And you could hardly ascribe that to religion.
In the centuries preceding that period, the Western world’s greatest civilisations put religion in everything they did.
The Roman Senate would open session only after making sure the omens were auspicious. Roman legions wouldn’t go to battle without reading the entrails of a goat -this last they learnt from the Greeks.
Would you call classical Greece and Rome obscurantist periods in human history?
November 6th, 2006 at 5:26 pmI am WAY passed taking much personally and I don’t get pissed about anything you’ve posted.
You have said before that you did… so I just wanted to make sure that you know that when I post against religion, it’s never with you in mind. I still recall a verse in teh Bible I read as a teenager where Mary when to church one day as a teenager herself and had the ability to determine who was a ‘true’ Christian and who was faking it by whethere or not she could hear that person’s voice when they sang. Even then, it was a small minority…
Quite honestly, you are a speck in my overall existence, so I’m not going to put that kind of emotional energy into your posts or in responding to you.
But you’ve commented enough for us to be at this point having this conversation, and frankly, I don’t like feeling like I’m responsible for how other’s feel when I’m not. It was one of the things about organized religion that didn’t work for me.
I am not looking to be “pleased†by you. I just think you can make your sociopolitical arguments much better if you are more targeted, and I support your arguments generally.
And, as usual, I disagree. So, I just wanted to be clear that I’m not taking that route. Revolutions aren’t meant to be that easy.
And I will continue to point that out to you and others when I think it’s called for. As you would say, if you don’t like that, don’t read my posts.
Comment by PatrioticLiberalChristian(PLC) — November 6, 2006 @ 5:10 pm
But it’s not the same. I was making generic comments that weren’t about you, as opposed to you specifically making comments to or about me.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:26 pmAs a very famous person once said to a crowd where a woman was caught in adultery “let the one without sin cast the first stone” and guess what, they all walked away. Why? They too were sinners and so are all of us!
November 6th, 2006 at 5:27 pmHow dare we cast stones when we are all guilty of sin ….. sin is sin and there’s no ‘white’ or ‘black’ sin…..it’s all the same in God’s eyes.
We won’t see an effect on our economy because of this issue, but this will effect our society because human reproduction will decrease.
Comment by Daryll
Your ignorance is astonishing. Greeks and romans were societies where gay sex was a normal thing and nobody cared. Did human civilization perished by gay sex? You are a great, great stupid tool. Sorry to offend you.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:29 pm(It also hurts lots too, but shush, that hurts my argument)
Comment by squegeeboo — November 6, 2006 @ 5:15 pm
Talking to yourself? :)
November 6th, 2006 at 5:29 pmWould you call classical Greece and Rome obscurantist periods in human history?
Comment by Gregor Samsa
You are proving my point. There is no god, just a colorful and wide folclore, named religion. The point here was
1) there is no god.
2) religion has killed and submitted more people in this planet than anything else.
I agree with you, there are countless examples of human expressions out of FAITH, religion is just the form.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:33 pmDid human civilization perished by gay sex? Comment by Juan C
Sheeshh! Did human civilization perish by gay sex? Damn auxiliars!!! THey dont seem to HELP me a lot!
November 6th, 2006 at 5:35 pmWe won’t see an effect on our economy because of [gay marriage], but this will effect our society because human reproduction will decrease.
Comment by Daryll — November 6, 2006 @ 5:25 pm
Wha!? How do you make that (il)logical leap?
Newsflash: Gay people are having sex with other gay people already, and not for the purpose of reproduction.
As a matter of fact, heterosexual couples are using birth control methods, hence having sex with a purpose other than reproduction, aka “fornicating” (gasp!).
Same-sex marriage laws would only recognise a reality. Duh!
November 6th, 2006 at 5:37 pmYou are proving my point.
Comment by Juan C — November 6, 2006 @ 5:33 pm
Er, no.
The issue is whether or not having a religion -per se- impairs people to the point of not being able to make rational decisions, and whether or not religious people can make contributions to art, science, politics, or all of the above.
You said “There were 10 centuries when the occidental world was incapacitated.” in reference to the Middle Ages and as an example of a period where heightened religiosity hampered human progress.
My response to that is that religion alone cannot be blamed for that, and as counter-example I offered the classical Greek and Roman civilisations.
Whether or not there is god(s) is a whole other issue, right?
November 6th, 2006 at 5:45 pm84 Daryll
That was an AWFULLY long post just to say “there isn’t any secular reason to deny homosexuals the right of marriage, because there wouldn’t be any negative effects on society”.
The only remote reason you gave is that human reproduction would decrease. The only reduction in number of children born to homosexuals would be ones that have been produced in fake marriages to “pass” as heterosexual because of society’s stigma. Plus, I think we’ve got the “populate the earth” thing pretty well taken care of already.
November 6th, 2006 at 5:49 pmRomans prayed to their gods, worshipped them in special temples built for that purpose, made statues of them, built altars in their homes, etc. These gods also sent messages to men & women through portents. They were real.
I disagree. They built Greek buildings, including temples dedicated to their version of Greek gods, but used them for social purposes. I think they considered their gods to be more like the Hindus see theirs - as guides.
Official business could only be conducted after securing the gods’ favor.
It was largely ceremonial. They’d taken their culture from the Latins and Greeks, and just followed ceremony without a real faith in what they were doing. Kind of like many Christians today. They just go through the motions without understanding or believing.
This is a Christian perspective, Unbelievable. Phalli were religious symbols.
No, they were pagan symbols first - just like the wreath and tree used at Christmas were originally of pagan origins.
They partially represented what they were - tools of fertility. It’s both what I studied in art school and later was told by the Italian historian who gave us the tour. He was pretty clear on their pagan symbolism.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:30 pmGregor - the stuff on Romans is getting deleted.
Censorship frustrates me…
Later.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:31 pmThey built Greek buildings […] but used them for social purposes
Comment by unbelievable — November 6, 2006 @ 6:30 pm
I don’t know what to tell you -Romans prayed to their gods when they wanted a son, or a good crop, to finalise a good business, or to win a battle. That is not just for social purposes anymore.
I think they considered their gods to be more like the Hindus see theirs - as guides.
I have several Hindu friends. You will have to trust me on this one. Lord Khrishna is real, and so are Ganesh, and Rama. That Hindus don’t interpret their gods as something that needs to be worshipped in a specific way or else is a whole other story.
Hindus do care more about the essence rather than the form, but Hindu gods are real, they exist (and are different from Abraham’s god or Buddha), and perform miracles for the faithful too -if you subscribe to that religion that is.
No, they were pagan symbols first - just like the wreath and tree used at Christmas were originally of pagan origins.
But Romans were pagans, understanding by ‘pagan’ anyone who is not Judeo-Christian, weren’t they?
They partially represented what they were - tools of fertility.
Right. They were religious symbols -fertility wasn’t understood as a biological process but as something the gods bestowed on people, right?
November 6th, 2006 at 6:49 pmUnbelievable,
I noticed.
I had a reply to your last post, but it went *poof*
Oh well.
November 6th, 2006 at 6:50 pm#8
November 6th, 2006 at 7:10 pmLOL
Dumbest post ever.
November 6th, 2006 at 8:00 pmCorrection:
Should read:
November 6th, 2006 at 8:07 pmDaryll thinks that fornicating can’t cause someone to become pregnant.
Comment by lestatdelc — November 6, 2006 @ 8:05 pm
Most religious people understand “fornication” to mean intercourse between unmarried people and/or for a purpose other than procreation.
From that perspective, married couples can be “fornicators”. The same logic can be used against unfertile couples, and those who use birth control.
At any rate, whatever your take -Daryll is wrong. End of story.
(Good luck chastising people for using birth control, Daryll)
November 6th, 2006 at 8:18 pmDobson, 2 ministers to offer counsel
By CAROL McGRAW THE GAZETTE
The three men chosen to oversee the Rev. Ted Haggard’s spiritual restoration are well-known in conservative Christian circles and are old pros at such work.
James Dobson, the Rev. Jack Hayford and the Rev. Tommy Barnett have been tapped by New Life’s overseer board to “perform a thorough analysis of Haggard’s mental, spiritual, emotional and physical life.â€
That includes a polygraph test and extensive investigation, according to the Rev. Larry Stockstill, chairman of the overseer board.
They’re gonna’ pray the gay away!
And Rev. Ted better get used to standing in a stall with two guys looking over his shoulder.
November 6th, 2006 at 8:29 pmComment by Gregor Samsa — November 6, 2006 @ 8:18 pm
Point is (as you note) no matter how you parse is, fornicating can and often does lead to pregnancy. And not to be so self-promoting, but as I said up-thread about Daryll’s post… “dumbest post ever.”
November 6th, 2006 at 8:50 pm“Father we pray lies would be exposed and deception exposed.”
Yesssss!
November 6th, 2006 at 10:24 pmYou’re the absolutist - not me. I’ve also said many times that I’m talking about the majority of them, not all of them. I think there is a slim minority of them who follow the Christ part, and not the organized religion part of Christianity.
This is what Jesus meant when he said that the way to destruction was wide and many entered in by it. The way to life is narrow and few find it.
November 6th, 2006 at 10:50 pmThe majority of nominal christians do not represent the true followers of Christ, but only those who actually practice Christ’s teaching (these are few in number). Unfortunately the hypocrites and haters and war-mongers parade themselves more publicly than those who just wanna get on with following Jesus.
All have sinned and fall short of the Glory of God.
God doesn’t believe in atheists, for there is really none! Only fools say in their hearts “there is no God”.
The free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus. Aren’t happy and should you not be grateful that someone took your judgment upon him? Jesus paid the price for our sins through his death and RESURRECTION!
If you have problem understanding this, call me or visit my website.
In the last days of judgement, you will not be asked what you thought about Ted Haggard or other people you knew in this life.
Now that you have heard about what Jesus did for you, the question to determine your eternal destiny (Heaven or Hell) will be: What did you do with the good news about Jesus Christ?
I pray that God releases his peace and love in your heart right now! Won’t come to him?
November 6th, 2006 at 11:28 pmGod doesn’t believe in atheists, for there is really none! Only fools say in their hearts “there is no Godâ€.
Yeah, totally. Only people who would throw up any excuse not to face up to their own sin. I join you in that prayer
November 6th, 2006 at 11:46 pm[…] Excerpt From Ted Haggard’s sermon last week “Father we pray lies would be exposed and deception exposed” […]
November 7th, 2006 at 11:54 amHaggard is a cautionary tale of what happens to bigot-movements when they seek leaders for hate. The will get them. The leaders of darkness are drawn from the depths of hated’s hiding place, Hell, and they minister to the minions of hate, the evangelicals.
November 7th, 2006 at 1:22 pmHate moves in mysterious ways.
Look Everybody,
What happened to Ted and dozens of other Christian leaders is mainly a result of 2 things.
The 1st: Ted Haggard, Jimmy Swaggart, Jim Baker, and others were all “puffed up” with pride and became “self-made” men. The Bible says that pride always comes before a fall — sometimes the fall is exposed and sometimes it’s not.
The 2nd: America has become a nation where selfishness reigns supreme. Americans are increasingly doing whatever give them pleasure with less and less sense of how it effects others. Women and children usually pay the heavier price. I used to live in San Francisco and anyone who is an honest gay man would tell you that gays are hurt more buy fellow gays than anyone else. The vast mojority of gay relationships are frought with infidelity. Most gay sex is about a selfish desire to get one’s pleasures met. I know, because I watched gay people in S.F. struggle through numerous relationships, hurting and being hurt.
Ted Haggard did what he did because he had become prideful and obsessed with getting “his”. The truth is… that’s where most Americans are heading — the non-religious more so than the religious — but almost all are going in that direction one way of another. I wish it weren’t so.
November 7th, 2006 at 5:25 pm