McCain and Lieberman Express Support For Sending More Troops to Iraq
McCain and Lieberman Express Support For Sending More Troops to Iraq
Opposition to the Iraq war was the dominant factor in this week’s election. NBC’s Meet the Press invited Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) and Sen. Joe Lieberman (I-CT) to discuss the issue. Both McCain and Lieberman expressed support for sending more troops to Iraq. Watch it:
Only 8 percent of Americans support sending more troops to Iraq. The other 92 percent were not represented this week on Meet the Press.
Full transcript:
McCAIN: The question is, is what’s the solution? And I believe that a withdrawal or a date for withdrawal will lead to chaos in the region, and most military expercent think the same thing. I believe that there are a lot of things that we can do to salvage this, but they all require the presence of additional troops.
+++
RUSSERT: Should we send more troops?
LIEBERMAN: I think we have to be open to that as a way to succeed, to achieve a free and independent Iraq, which would be an extraordinary accomplishment.
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Good. I agree. Let’s start the draft YESTERDAY. All or nothing, kiddos…
November 12th, 2006 at 12:26 pmSenator McCain is definitely not a man of presidential timber. He is more like a hollow log rotting on the forest floor.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:27 pmmore troops to do what? force the Shiites and Sunnis to get along with more guns? WTF?
How ’bout this… “The Iraqis need to pull themselves up by their bootstraps”… hey, if it’s good enough for Welfare Reform in the USA, then Republicans need to show the same disdain for the Iraqis, as they do the American poor, and pull out and let them stand on their own two feet.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:29 pmbill kristol of the pnac, fox news, and god knows what other extremist groups, has been throwing around the ‘50,000 extra troops‘ number. with his connections to the bush crime family, it may be that one of the impending ’solutions’ of the baker commission will be to add that number of troops….
so what will happen is someone in congress will submit a joint resolution expressing the sense of the congress that bush ought to send 50,000 more troops to iraq.
the bill is debated; it is voted down. after that point, the democrats OWN iraq…. from that day forward, the republicans can say ‘well, we had a plan for victory in iraq and democrats killed it. don’t blame us for failing in iraq, blame the democrats!!! they voted against the increase!!!’
this is what lieberman and mccain and the rest of the degenerate republicans will run on in 2008.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:31 pmThis is good. McCain will get killed if he’s the candidate in ‘08.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:32 pmStay the course, Republicans!!!!
Is this guy a 41 or a 43?
Is he a Baker Bott or a Rove Bott?
November 12th, 2006 at 12:33 pmActions speak louder than words Mr. Lieberman.
McCain, you’re not going to be President. Stop posturing and start listening to teh American people.
We want the troops OUT of Iraq!
November 12th, 2006 at 12:34 pmMcCain and Lieberman must personally lead the troops into battle in Iraq! Bon voyage boys and we will give you nice funerals > lol.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:37 pmKinda hard for them to claim that when Bechtel is already pulling out because they cannot operate in a ‘war torn’ country with billions of dollars of Cheney privatized GOP their taxdollars in their pockets.
Say George how is that Laura Bush building project going in Iraq?
November 12th, 2006 at 12:38 pmWe need more troops to teach Shia how to use toilets and set the clocks on their VCR’s.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:39 pmI say we send the top 1% first, I mean they are so Elite, and Noble and all, why not put our very best and brightest chickenhawks on the frontlines first!
November 12th, 2006 at 12:43 pmGood…..let them try to keep ignoring the views of the majority of Americans that ousted them…..and we didn’t “thump” them…..we OUSTED – REJECTED – BEAT them. This will just give our side more momentum going into 08. Gore/Obama
November 12th, 2006 at 12:44 pmCalling for more troops won’t fly. The Dems can refuse to fund this war now. The Bush Crime family are all so deluded and full of shit ….McCain died long ago….that they will continue to implode without much help from us.
#8 – Jay Randal,
November 12th, 2006 at 12:44 pmThe caskets will be flown into Wilmington in the dead of night and transported to their burial sites by FedEx overnight.
Want to end wars? Send all these elitist SOBS to war.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:44 pmI told Sen. Harry Reid that Joe Lieberman would be trouble, if he got re-elected, so the Democrats hurt themselves by not helping Lamont to win in CT. Old Joe is going to stab the Democrats in the back every chance he gets and he could join the GOP Senators at any time to end Democrat control of the Senate too!
November 12th, 2006 at 12:45 pm.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:46 pmMcCave
.
none of us should take advice from a war criminal.
mccain is a war criminal. he confessed to war crimes, and should be treated like a war criminal.
according to the laws mccain recently helped to pass, anything the north vietnamese did to him was acceptable, and anything he said as a result can be legitimately used against him. that’s how we roll here in the states these days, right? well then, why is mccain on television, rather than in a cell in the carribean?
November 12th, 2006 at 12:46 pmAmericans can’t decide what to think about Iraq? THEN SEND THEM THERE TO GET A BETTER LOOK.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:47 pmIf these guys are right we should station more troops in our houses.
Thank You, Liberals.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:47 pmThose two questionable “gentlemen” aught to as honorable men volunteer to be the FIRST TWO to head the additional 50,000 troops to be sent to Iraq.
Maybe Lieberman should be the First since he is known as a “chickenhawk” in addition to being a neocon. McCain bless his heart will do anything to get AIPAC’s money and endorsement notwithstanding his claim that he could have won the Vietnam war if only the generals had listened to him.
But then Americans should be thankful that these two gentlemen are expressing views that definitely makes their Presidential aspirations comic books material.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:49 pmPlease, please, let’s force McCain into advocating a draft so that we can quickly end his presidential candidacy.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:50 pmEr, seems like some politicians have a real problem with ‘listening.’
How long will it take these guys to realize that we can’t impose a ‘western style democracy’ on a cultures with such different backgrounds. The level of arrogance and the inability to understand the history of other countries is staggering.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:51 pmCorrecting URI… Check it out, by the way. Good writing, political commentary, etc.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:52 pmhttp://www.theroguevoice.blogspot.com
McCain and Lieberman-they must be insane. Which is why military families despise them both.
November 12th, 2006 at 12:52 pmAnyone who was tortured and then backs down on the issue should be in a straightjacket anyway…
By the way Lieberman, we know who paid for your re-election, ya pig
jeehus, it’s hard to tell the really good satire from the scary possibility…
November 12th, 2006 at 12:52 pmThe Dems can refuse to fund this war now.
Comment by S — November 12, 2006 @ 12:44 pm
Nancy Pelosi already said that they won’t do that.
But hopefully, they will incrementally decrease the funding in order to force a time table for withdrawl.
I know several of us have already debated the ethical implications of what will happen, but I don’t think we’ll really know until we try something different. Clearly staying the course is not working…
November 12th, 2006 at 12:57 pm92% of America wants less troops.
99% of congress wants more troops.
Yet Cheney says that basically your opinion doesn’t matter. The Star Trek Enterprise is going warp 10 straight towards that black hole.
And this is Democracy!?!?
November 12th, 2006 at 12:57 pmMcCain and Lieberman deserve each other.
Bush was right in the Primaries in 2000 – McCain is nuts!
Jim Toevs
November 12th, 2006 at 1:00 pmDidn’t McCain say he would commit suicide if the Dem’s won back control of the Senate? I guess that they actually didn’t win with Holy Joe as an Independent/Republican
November 12th, 2006 at 1:01 pmRangel has introduced the Mandatory [2 yrs] Service act of 2006 already. I would not be surprised if McJane supports it already
November 12th, 2006 at 1:01 pmThey are all on the same side – nothing is going to change.
It’s the classic “Good Cop – Bad Cop” routine played out to perfection against me & you.
Come election time, we will all get to choose from 2 more people that nobody wants … either way they win. It’s like choosing between Hitler or Stalin.
How about some real candidates that are not millionaires or huge stock owners in company’s?
The problem is the fact it takes 5 million to run for local dog-catcher in your hometown. There is no way for a non-rich – non-corrupt person to even make it to the congressional or senatorial level of government – because you need huge pools of money to get there – and if you do get that money somebody will own you.
Wouldn’t it be nice to have a candidate that was a current fireman or teacher?
November 12th, 2006 at 1:02 pmMcCain and Lieberman deserve each other.
Bush was right in the 2000 Republican Primaries – McCain is nuts!
Jim Toevs
November 12th, 2006 at 1:02 pmI think they have both been copulating the same jar of Jiff peanut butter.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:03 pmWhenever I see someone advocating “more troops” I wnat to scream at the interviewer to ask these questions: 1. How long would it take to recruit & train 50,000 more troops? 2. How long would it take to build the extra equipment to equip them? 3. Where would the money come from to recruit, train, equip & sustain 50,000 more troops? 4. Out of the 50,000 new troops recruited how many would be combat troops? 5. Would that amount of combat troops thrown into Iraq in a regular rotation do any good?
November 12th, 2006 at 1:03 pmIf McCain or Leiberman were forced to answer any of those questions the American people would see how phoney the whole more troops approach is. At this point it would take a minimum of 3 years to find, finance, equip and train enough troops to make a difference in Iraq & it would be a damn sight more than 50,000.
How long will it take these guys to realize that we can’t impose a ‘western style democracy’ on a cultures with such different backgrounds.
Comment by Designer — November 12, 2006 @ 12:51 pm
I think it’s too late to teach those old dogs new tricks…
But I agree with your point. The Middle East has been violent for over 5,000 years due to their geography, climate and culture. It’s why the tree of monotheism that began there is steeped in violent ideology, and why they don’t have a marketable tourism industry…
Democracy only seems to be working in countries where the majority of the people have enough. When they are forced to compete to survive in an inhospitable environment, Mazlow’s pyramid shows us that they will put civility aside to exist. And therefore Democracy does not stand much of a chance.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:04 pmHave you all noticed that members of the House and Senate are making threats against Iran again, so if Democrats agree with Bush to attack Iran, then we all got betrayed in the election. War on Iran would require an emergency draft and the forced conscription of young Americans, But Hillary Clinton’s daughter and the Bush twins would be excluded from the draft, so the DC elite are warmongering hypocrites!
November 12th, 2006 at 1:04 pmThanks Flash I had almost misremembered!
November 12th, 2006 at 1:06 pm
Didn’t McCain say he would commit suicide…
Comment by flash — November 12, 2006 @ 1:01 pm
yep –
John McCain Says If Democrats Win He’ll “Commit Suicide”
wonder why timmy didn’t ask about that…
November 12th, 2006 at 1:08 pmI think they have both been copulating the same jar of Jiff peanut butter.
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 12, 2006 @ 1:03 pm
Truly, this is only possible from the mind of the male “species” ; )
Someone once circulated an email about how to do the same to a gourd. Apparently is was very similar to sex with another human being… A woman would never consider such a thing, much less do it. LOL
November 12th, 2006 at 1:08 pmFor McCain and Lieberman to push for more troops in Iraq is simply insane. Where was the opposing viewpoint? Unfortunately, there are extremely few Democrats to argue against their hawkish position, since almost no Democrats who won in the November elections, with the possible exception of Sherrod Brown, are advocating, justifiably, that in order to save more Americans from returning to this country in flag draped coffins in the dead of night, that U.S. troops be immediately withdrawn from that quagmire in Iraq. Actually, there are almost no Democrats ANYWHERE who are in favor of immediate withdrawal. Where is the anti-war point of view on the corporate airwaves? Why are people like Norman Solomon and Anthony Arnove and Howard Zinn and Amy Goodman not being seen and heard on the network and cable news shows? So much for true democracy being allowed to express itself to the American people through the medium that most Americans receive their news, which is television.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:09 pmWouldn’t it be nice to have a candidate that was a current fireman or teacher?
Comment by Govt. Mule — November 12, 2006 @ 1:02 pm
montana voted for an organic farmer! fantastic!!!
public financed elections, the only way…
November 12th, 2006 at 1:11 pmI have not heard of Mazlows Pyramid before..Oh Thanxx alot!
Now I gotta go read &*#$@$#, Jes feckling Gr8 =8]
[kidding =]
November 12th, 2006 at 1:11 pmWell, that would have made a hell of a lot of difference in the begining. Even now it would be more effective than our current stay the course over the cliff policy, I am not sure it is worth the cost. I am not sure our military can be streched much more when it needs to be rebuilt and reenergised. The moral could use a hell of boost. We need someone other than a profiteering coward leading the troops. The troops need to know they won the war and their sorry ass leadership let them down and lost the peace.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:13 pmTruly, this is only possible from the mind of the male “species†; )
Yes it is!! A knuckle dragging mechanic at that! =)
November 12th, 2006 at 1:15 pmIt seems so obvious that GE would tout these irrelevant politicians in order to help its own war-fed bottom line. The way the American people spoke out on Tuesday and GE advances this propoganda?
November 12th, 2006 at 1:15 pmI bet Anne Coulter would!
November 12th, 2006 at 1:18 pmI have not heard of Mazlows Pyramid before..Oh Thanxx alot!
Now I gotta go read &*#$@$#, Jes feckling Gr8 =8]
[kidding =]
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 12, 2006 @ 1:11 pm
: )
November 12th, 2006 at 1:18 pmWe need more troops to teach Shia how to use toilets
Comment by Jeff
Arabs invented toilets. STFU.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:18 pmHow long will it take these guys to realize that we can’t impose a ‘western style democracy’ on a cultures with such different backgrounds.
Comment by Designer
Well, thats the whole point. Imagine they invade some country, remove the dictator and people begin practicing democracy fast. People would start thinking: hey, why this invading army still has military bases on our country (600 US military bases across the world but not one foreign base in US soil)? Why cant we manage our own resources? Why do we have to buy our stuff in Wal-Mart? etc…
Civil war is OK for US as long as they dont hit oil pipes.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:28 pm92% of the population want a withdraw from Iraq, 87% want Bush impeached, 97% don’t want North American tollroads, 99% don’t want the Supreme Court ruling enabling the seizure of private property for private interest, 90% don’t want open-borders and Amnesty for illegals.
Governments answer?
It’s not what you want, it’s what the ELITE want – just shut up and sit down before we throw you in a FEMA camp.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7woOAjUm8vQ
November 12th, 2006 at 1:29 pmhttp://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0P-hvPJPTi4
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3020455577813028878&q=FEMA+camp
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4616075184442465199&q=FEMA+camp
Yes it is!! A knuckle dragging mechanic at that! =)
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 12, 2006 @ 1:15 pm
I only have three female students in my classes combined. The rest are male. I never cease to be amazed at how they can take the most innocent sounding things are turn them into something completely perverted. It’s rather amusing.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:29 pmI bet Anne Coulter would!
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 12, 2006 @ 1:18 pm
Her gender is questionable…
In fact, any woman that misogynistic must be missing both X chromosomes… :)
November 12th, 2006 at 1:31 pmMcCain should to propose to restart the draft in order to get the troops he proposes.
That would guarantee the end of the war the following day
November 12th, 2006 at 1:34 pmThe moment Republicans and this administration begin to think and believe that Iraq is not all a military problem…but a political one…then the beginning of finding a solution will be near….McCain thinks if we keep bombing cities and kill people we will finally win….the country is divided over a power issues,nationalism..Arabism factions vs. Persian ones , it is between Shiate and Sunnis. McCain should look at the military operation charts and see that the months we shoot more…we lose more also. With all these losses we have..our fighting was only limited to small area of western Iraq…but if this thing escalates like McCaine wants it to cover all Iraq…then that will be an invitation to Iran….it will be a copy of the Korean war that invited China to the conflict in the early fifties…What we need is a conference on the issue that contains the problem..all sides are invited including Iran, Turkey and Syria.That involves also economical aid..compensation to people for loss of business and property,release prisoners that are taken and not tried yet. Make neighboring Arab countries part of the solution by sending help and troops,let them all guarantee the sovereignty of Iraq in a declaration. Keep Americans to limited purpose to train and prtotect Iraq from outside forces..just like with Japan. McCain is wrong on escalating militarily the situation..we did that,but no good results were achieved. It is time to work some political solution to the problem. The issue of dividing Iraq will not work..and no Arab country will agree on that,and also Turkey will not agree on that also. Iraqis will not agree on that..because they are nationals and they consider themselves Iraqis..yes they are fighting based on religious dogmatic beliefs..but they still like to see their country as one called Iraq….But many ideas need to be explored…guns alone will not do it…if McCain thinks so..he is wrong.Time for Condi Rice to do something,and open the dialogue page beside shooting; it is her job and not Baker’s ex-Secretary of States. We didn’t defeat the Soviet Union by guns…but by diplomacy,talking and open border’s policies…
November 12th, 2006 at 1:48 pmThat’s right Mr. McCain.
Advocate sending more people to fight a war that is unpopular at home, and one of the reasons why the Republican party lost control of Congress.
Keep reminding people why they voted the way they did.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:51 pmOk, So Maslow, says that people will become uncivil to meet physiologial needs. I agree.
Yet he, Maslow, never studied nuerotics.
This is kind of a catch 22. I mean, the more civilized we become the more we tend to gravitate towards cities and therefore, civility. Pedestrians. Then the rat cage gets too small and all people start to become more corrupted, their souls polluted, murders, crime etc
Maslow, to me, seems to have actually studying the basis of neurotics!!
Civility!!
What crazy people we are!!
November 12th, 2006 at 1:54 pmLieberman and McCain:
Two fossils who just don’t get it. They’ll do anything to subvert the will of the American voters. When either of them speak, they have a glazed look that gives the impression that they’re not thinking but just spouting verbaqe that has been programmed into them.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:56 pmIt is rare to see a woman cheerleader for the authoritarian disorder
November 12th, 2006 at 1:58 pmTher GOP is no longer the party of Lincoln. Chafee, that is. It’s important to remember the differences between Chafee and Lieberman and to delve into why they’re both so undeserving of their respective fates.
If you don’t want to know what I have to say on the subject, at least read the explosive op-ed piece written by Chafee in today’s NY Times.
November 12th, 2006 at 1:59 pmHes got shark eyes.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:01 pmDid you notice that McCain said if we don’t put more troops in, then we should just withdraw as quickly as possible. THAT’S HIS OUT.
He KNOWS that putting more troops is not acceptable to the American people. As we withdraw our troops in the next year on a timetable (something that he is against) there is no doubt that the Iraqi’s are going to settle this themselves once we are out of there.
If the civil war gets worse, McCain will be in a position to say “See, I told you we shouldn’t come out of Iraq on a timetable”. If someone takes control of Iraq like Saddam did when he came to power, more quickly , after our troops leave, he will point to the number of troops killed during our timetable withdraw, that we should have just left quickly as possible when he made that statement on Russerts show today.
If there is a major civil war still going on in Iraq after we get out and the 2008 presidential primaries have started, he will say “See, if we would have put more troops in 2 years ago , we would have avoided this all out civil war”.
It’s kind of a shrewd position to take. He sort of gets it both ways depending on the outcome in Iraq after we leave.
That’s why we must GET OUT NOW, AS SOON AS POSSIBLE. Let the Iraqi’s settle it themselves without our involvement. Sure, there may be an increase of violence after we get out, SHORT TERM, but one group will emerge as the powerbrokers in Iraq and take control of the country.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:04 pmWe are now in a period much like that after Nixon’s election in ‘68. He wanted to stay in Vietnam and achieve “victory” but the national mood by then had already doomed that. America wanted out, and 5 years and who knows how many thousands of deaths later, we finally got out. The only question that remains now is what kind of bullshit scenario will be drawn up by this pack of gangsters running the government to get us out with “honor”. SSDD . . . Same Shit Different Day.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:08 pm#4 james risser
November 12th, 2006 at 2:12 pmYou expressed my own thoughts – the Repugs will have the Dems owning this war in Iraq before they are done – and I can see your scenario unfolding.
# 66, “SSDD . . . Same Shit Different Day”
November 12th, 2006 at 2:17 pmSuccinct and right on point.
#65- JerryThe Angel
Well said. Bring them home- now. Not in those flag draped coffins in the middle of the night or returning to this country with missing limbs and fractured skulls and with severe psychological trauma. Have them returned to this country in one piece- now. As I mentioned at comment #47, the appearance of an anti-war voice on the airwaves is practically non-existent while the corporate media would rather subvert the will of the people by allowing politicians like McCain and Lieberman to appear on their programs.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:17 pmWhere does McCain and Lieberweasel think they are going to get the troops w/out re-instituting the draft?
November 12th, 2006 at 2:18 pmOk, So Maslow, says that people will become uncivil to meet physiologial needs. I agree.
He also said that without our basic needs met (freedom from pain and hunger, adequate sleep, and lack of fear) we are not capable of thinking at a higher level. And, therefore, will focus on resolving our deficiencies to the detriment of everything else.
Basically, if you are in pain, you don’t give a rat’s fanny about the assessments of Shakespearean sonnets. Nor, if you are hungry, do you care about the ethical ramifications of not sharing your food with your starving neighbor.
This is kind of a catch 22. I mean, the more civilized we become the more we tend to gravitate towards cities and therefore, civility. Pedestrians. Then the rat cage gets too small and all people start to become more corrupted, their souls polluted, murders, crime etc
Which is why I’ve coem to believe that at the top of his unfinished pyramid (because he dies before he could complete it), would not have been love or higher awareness as many have suggested, but corruption and decay.
I believe that without some bad to balance the good, we as humans become bored, and therefore create our own drama. Nature seeks stasis. That means a balance between good and bad – not the absence of either.
Maslow, to me, seems to have actually studying the basis of neurotics!!
Civility!!
What crazy people we are!!
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 12, 2006 @ 1:54 pm
Such is the proof, to me, that the universe is not only NOT intelligent, but indifferent – and that the only purpose or sanity we have is that which we create ourselves.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:21 pmWhy doesn’t a single interviewer ever ask any of the”more troops” boys how long it would take to recruit 50,000 additional troops, train them & equip them? The answer would end the idea once & for all as it would take at least three years if we started today. This is not WWII, we don’t have overcapacity in our industrial base & the whole country is not on a war footing.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:22 pmThey have been trying to blame this war on Clinton and everybody else for years and the people don’t buy it. They are gonna have a hard time trying to make it look like the dems war when Bush, the Commander in Chief is still in office for the Next two years. If and when the Democrats get a dem President that will be when the war changes hands.
So I agree, but I speculate that it will be a few [2] years down the road before the Dems own this quagmire.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:22 pmIt is rare to see a woman cheerleader for the authoritarian disorder
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 12, 2006 @ 1:58 pm
They all seem to be self-destructive. Look at Laura Bush and Lynne Cheney (well not directly :). After all, the religion of their party considers women to be second-class citizens who are equal to asses and oxen in the commandment denying one the right to covet such possessions…
Stark facts show that in societies with equal rights laws, everyone is better off. And why any man would want his children raised by a woman he doesn’t respect as his equal proves that Republican men are just as self-destructive as their woman.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:25 pmIndubetedly!
That what is without manifests within
November 12th, 2006 at 2:27 pmand that what is within manifests without
on another thread, but relevent here:
In other news:
McCain edges toward ‘08 presidential run
By HOPE YEN, Associated Press Writer 57 minutes ago
I can already see the ticket:
“McCain/Lieberman – 2008. If we can’t bring you Armageddon, no one can!â€
November 12th, 2006 at 2:28 pmCorrection on post #69. It should read “As I mentioned at comment #44…”
November 12th, 2006 at 2:28 pmThat what is without manifests within
and that what is within manifests without
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 12, 2006 @ 2:27 pm
I agree. And instead of passing that sort of wisdom on to the next generation, we force them to memorize the surface temperature of the planet Mercury, the exact date the Battle of Waterloo began, and the Lord’s Prayer.
No wonder we’re in a decline.
I think Maszlow also verified the that too many people on the planet is a recipe for disaster.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:32 pmWelp I’m gonna go walk the Dog….
exit stage left
November 12th, 2006 at 2:35 pmYupp! TTYL UB!
November 12th, 2006 at 2:38 pmRegarding 50,000 more troops: how long before it becomes 100,000, 200,000…500,000 like Viet Nam? Did the presence of half-a-million troops, napalm, B-52 bombing runs, free fire zones and illegal bombing of neighboring countries work then? How the hell is it going to work now in a region far more incendiary than SE Asia.
This is insane. Literally.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:39 pm1. Maslow’s basic thesis was disproved by Victor Frankel’s _Man’s_Search_for_Meaning_. If you haven’t read it it is worth reading.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:42 pm2. The prevailing opinion on this site that McCain and Lieberman are headed up the wrong path may be correct, but if the participants were hoping to convince anyone who hasn’t yet formed his own opinion on the matter, then I am afraid the dogmatic drivel in this forum will have precisely the opposite effect.
#81- Joey big time
Well said.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:44 pmJohn Krew,
Instead of pontificating with your assholierthanthou attitude, why don’t you enlighten the unwashed masses here at TP?
I’m waiting with a worm on my tongue.
November 12th, 2006 at 2:47 pmAm I the only one seeing a UnB – Dog named Boo “trend” so to speak here?
November 12th, 2006 at 2:57 pmZooey,
How appropriate your name is. And your gutter style is perfect confirmation of the second point in my posting. Thank you!
November 12th, 2006 at 3:00 pm[...] McCain and Joe Leiberman. Permalink| [...]
November 12th, 2006 at 3:00 pmHey, Zoo. Have a nice day. ;)
November 12th, 2006 at 3:01 pmYupp! TTYL UB!
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 12, 2006 @ 2:38 pm
Enjoy your walk!
November 12th, 2006 at 3:04 pmthen I am afraid the dogmatic drivel in this forum will have precisely the opposite effect.
Comment by John Krew
mmm…dogmatic. Yeah…wide vocabulary you have…
November 12th, 2006 at 3:04 pm“Withdrawal will lead to chaos in Iraq” What sophistry! Chaos for whom? For the US, of course. All the corporate hucksters that are making the blood money will have to think of something else, their pork supply will be cut off. There has been nothing but chaos since the US invaded. The US is the master of chaos. Thats all theyve done is create chaos where there was none.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:12 pmMaslow’s basic thesis was disproved by Victor Frankel’s _Man’s_Search_for_Meaning_. If you haven’t read it it is worth reading.
Comment by John Krew — November 12, 2006 @ 2:42 pm
Maslow’s pyramid is taught in Psychology courses in college, because it is valid. Frankl’s experience is not taught alongside, because it is unique. Unique does not trump anything.
Frankl convinced himself (mind over matter). It is precisely what I said about meaning does not exist unless we assign it. People routinely attach prescribed ideologies in lieu of their own formation of meaning. That is all Frankl did.
Maslow stands. Thanks for proving why you Christonazis are so afraid of Science that you regularly need to say that you’ve debunked it with opinions and ‘beliefs’ (because you have no facts or evidence to do this). You refuse to tolerate the fact that many of us choose rational thought over the supernatural.
Go away now. The adults are talking.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:13 pmZooey,
How appropriate your name is. And your gutter style is perfect confirmation of the second point in my posting. Thank you!
Comment by John Krew
High praise, indeed.
Funny….I’m not feeling enlightened yet. Proceed…
November 12th, 2006 at 3:14 pmI’m waiting with a worm on my tongue.
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 2:47 pm
Tequilla again?
November 12th, 2006 at 3:15 pmHey, Zoo. Have a nice day. ;)
Comment by Juan+C
Probably won’t, but thanks.
I see we have a new Yenta….seems to have a good eye for the hot match-ups. :)
November 12th, 2006 at 3:16 pmAm I the only one seeing a UnB – Dog named Boo “trend†so to speak here?
Comment by Yenta 2 — November 12, 2006 @ 2:57 pm
Yes, you are.
Nice hiding behind a very transparent screen name. Very mature.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:16 pmSend McCain and Liberman.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:17 pm“We’re waist deep in the big muddy, and the big fool says to push on.”-Pete Seeger
November 12th, 2006 at 3:18 pm
Tequilla again?
Comment by unbelievable
Baited breath….heh.
What have you heard…?
November 12th, 2006 at 3:19 pmI see we have a new Yenta….seems to have a good eye for the hot match-ups. :)
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 3:16 pm
We were just talking… Down girl : )
November 12th, 2006 at 3:19 pmWe were just talking… Down girl : )
Comment by unbelievable
I swear, Yenta 2 is not me!
But, I ask you, why fight it…?
November 12th, 2006 at 3:21 pm*channeling Yenta*
What have you heard…?
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 3:19 pm
Just a guess… :)
Why, is that an admission of some sort?
November 12th, 2006 at 3:22 pmMazlow’s Heirarchy of Needs-very, very important to read. I would also through in “The True Believers”.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:24 pm1. Please provide evidence that Maslow’s pyramid is correct. Newton’s physics was also routinely taught as the “truth” until it was overturned (or at least considerably modified) by Einsteinian physics. The eternity of the world was routinely taught until the Big Bang theory took hold. A theory’s being routinely taught in academia is no proof of its correctness.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:25 pm2. Frankel in his writings documents many cases in which concentration camp victims transcended their earthy needs for the sake of transcendent values. The phenomenon was by no means unique.
3. What a pity you and your friend Zooey cannot communicate civilly without resorting to sarcasm and nastiness. Do you think such a style really strengthens your arguments?
Why, is that an admission of some sort?
Comment by unbelievable
I have no idea what you could be referring to…
November 12th, 2006 at 3:25 pm1. Please provide evidence that Maslow’s pyramid is correct. Newton’s physics was also routinely taught as the “truth” until it was overturned (or at least considerably modified) by Einsteinian physics. The eternity of the world was routinely taught until the Big Bang theory took hold. A theory’s being routinely taught in academia is no proof of its correctness.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:26 pm2. Frankel in his writings documents many cases in which concentration camp victims transcended their earthy needs for the sake of transcendent values. The phenomenon was by no means unique.
3. What a pity you and your friend Zooey cannot communicate civilly without resorting to sarcasm and nastiness. Do you think such a style really strengthens your arguments?
I swear, Yenta 2 is not me!
I believe you. Didn’t think it was.
But, I ask you, why fight it…?
*channeling Yenta*
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 3:21 pm
Fight what? We really were just talking. Most of the guys here are married, gay or far, far away. Keeps the dialog rational, I think. : )
November 12th, 2006 at 3:28 pmKeeps the dialog rational, I think. : )
Comment by unbelievable
Not always, my dear…
November 12th, 2006 at 3:31 pmMazlow’s Heirarchy of Needs-very, very important to read. I would also through in “The True Believersâ€.
Comment by Joefriday — November 12, 2006 @ 3:24 pm
There’s a reason he’s featured in every basic Psychology textbook I’ve ever read… :)
The neocon zealots want to deny that humans are the same as any other animal, fungus or bacteria, that can be studied, dissected and explained through Scientific processes. It hurts their already terribly low self-esteem. They need to be extra special.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:32 pmUm, did Lieberman lie to get elected. He was for the war before he was against it. Now, he’s for the war again….
November 12th, 2006 at 3:32 pmWhat a pity you and your friend Zooey cannot communicate civilly without resorting to sarcasm and nastiness. Do you think such a style really strengthens your arguments?
Comment by John Krew
Hi there, J Krew.
I can’t speak for unbelievable, she’s better at arguing than I am, but I don’t think she’s been arguing with you.
I, on the other hand, have simply asked, in my own lovable style, for enlightenment. Therefore, I have not resorted to nastiness and sarcasm in order to strengthen any possible argument — only to ask that you grace us with your wisdom.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:36 pmPlease provide evidence that Maslow’s pyramid is correct.
Open your eyes.
There is no point in this discourse. You already think you are right and you came here to validate your need to be right.
But, if you want validation – pick up a Psychology 101 textbook.
Newton’s physics was also routinely taught as the “truth†until it was overturned (or at least considerably modified) by Einsteinian physics. The eternity of the world was routinely taught until the Big Bang theory took hold. A theory’s being routinely taught in academia is no proof of its correctness.
Correctness is subjective. I can say something is grey that you consider to be black. Prove it’s black.
That’s what you are asking, instead of instigating a real dialog with facts and specifics.
Frankel in his writings documents many cases in which concentration camp victims transcended their earthy needs for the sake of transcendent values. The phenomenon was by no means unique.
Group hallucinatins are not proof of anything except that when people chose to ‘believe’ it cannot be rationed with.
Prove Frankl, and those who belive in spirituality, are correct – with facts and evidence – not just ‘beliefs’. I mean, thatis what you asked me to do above. Do what you expect from others.
What a pity you and your friend Zooey cannot communicate civilly without resorting to sarcasm and nastiness. Do you think such a style really strengthens your arguments?
Comment by John Krew — November 12, 2006 @ 3:25 pm
Look in the mirror John, you started the tone with insults of your own. Passive-agressive as you are, we still know it’s an attack.
And we’ve both learned that people like you are not interested in reason – just in forcing your views on others.
Zoo – I’d pay you a compliment here, but Judd’s new spam filter doesn’t like it very much. It must have a crush on you :)
November 12th, 2006 at 3:40 pmI have no idea what you could be referring to…
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 3:25 pm
Of course not :)
November 12th, 2006 at 3:41 pmWhy do many of this forum’s participants leave me with the impression that they are more interested in pounding in their opinions with a rhetorical sledge hammer than in seriously engaging in dialectic argumentation in search of the truth? In the end the effect is terribly ineffectual and boring.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:44 pmWhat a pity. Many of you are obviously intelligent. And yet you pilfer away your intellectual talents on wise-cracking and name-calling. Isn’t it time for a change, guys?
Not always, my dear…
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 3:31 pm
Is there ever an always? : )
And, Jason and Exley are excluded. I don’t consider them ‘men’…
November 12th, 2006 at 3:44 pm#112 – Now that’s what I’m talking about! You know, I’ve the one-liner, and the dripping sarcasm down pat, but the arguing piece? You’ve got it all handled. :)
Compliment? Can’t get it through f*ck filter? Wow, that must have been a good one.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:46 pmonly to ask that you grace us with your wisdom.
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 3:36 pm
You’re such the diplomat. You grew up with sisters didn’t you : )
November 12th, 2006 at 3:47 pmYou’re such the diplomat. You grew up with sisters didn’t you : )
Comment by unbelievable
That, I did…
November 12th, 2006 at 3:50 pmWhy do many of this forum’s participants leave me with the impression that they are more interested in pounding in their opinions with a rhetorical sledge hammer than in seriously engaging in dialectic argumentation in search of the truth?
You are projecting your own approach on to us.
This is where we hang out. Youare coming into our court and insulting people without offering friendship, or rational discourse as you are demanding from others.
You want different results? Then take a different approach.
Yours isn’t working very well for you.
In the end the effect is terribly ineffectual and boring.
Yes, you are rather boring. You haven’t offered anything but talking points. Leaves me to conclude that you don’t actually know what you are speaking about… As those who CAN discuss, DO…
What a pity. Many of you are obviously intelligent. And yet you pilfer away your intellectual talents on wise-cracking and name-calling. Isn’t it time for a change, guys?
Comment by John Krew — November 12, 2006 @ 3:44 pm
You go first.
Until you offer something of substance, you’re not likely to get it returned. We learned that there’s no point in debating people like you because you aren’t here for a debate. You’re here to judge and insult to make yourself feel better about your own personal inadequacies – pretty much as you’re doing now.
Zooey and I just pointed out.
Perhaps that’s what upsets you the most.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:53 pmFrankel’s basic thesis does not require him to prove a belief in spirituality. He is making a phenomenological observation: that people can transcend physical needs for the sake of transcendent values. That sort of behavior was observed in the concentration camps, regardless of whether or not you personally think those values are hallucinatory or are grounded in reality. According to Maslow that type of behavior should be impossible, no matter how it is interpreted.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:53 pmJohn Krew,
Please register all of you petty little complaints with Judd — see the email link at the top right of the page.
If you choose not to do so, please stop by goodvibes dot com, to find something to take your mind off of your whiny-assed self.
Thank you.
November 12th, 2006 at 3:55 pmNow that’s what I’m talking about! You know, I’ve the one-liner, and the dripping sarcasm down pat, but the arguing piece? You’ve got it all handled. :)
Yes, you are the Queen of that. Good thing I don’t drink while reading your comments. My computer screen would be impossible to read my now :)
Well thank you. All those years of debating in high school, and some in college. Never have been able to shake it… Alpha Female thing probably.
Compliment? Can’t get it through f*ck filter? Wow, that must have been a good one.
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 3:46 pm
It was a couple or three weeks ago. I said that you were hilarious. That you made our gender more respectable and credible through your ability to tell ROTFL kind of jokes, when most women are expected to joke about periods and that sort of nonsense. That you reperent womankind very well. The spam filter ate it and I fussed at Judd… :D
November 12th, 2006 at 3:58 pmThat, I did…
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 3:50 pm
I had brothers.
Explains a lot : )
November 12th, 2006 at 3:59 pmIt was a couple or three weeks ago. I said that you were hilarious. That you made our gender more respectable and credible through your ability to tell ROTFL kind of jokes, when most women are expected to joke about periods and that sort of nonsense. That you reperent womankind very well. The spam filter ate it and I fussed at Judd… :D
Comment by unbelievable
Wow…just, wow!
*blush*
Thanks!
November 12th, 2006 at 4:03 pmNo, correctness is tentative, not subjective. At least according to the scientific method, a theory approximates correctness if it has provability and helps to explain reality. It stands until it is disproven and then a better theory comes along which does a better job of explaining reality. My contention is that Maslow’s pyramid, while explaining much of human behavior, is flawed by its incompleteness in explaining the phenomena presented by Frankel and other historical sources. A human has free choice. If he chooses to limit his actions to animal-like behavior, then his behavior will in fact approximate Maslow’s hypothesis. But he can transcend that if he so chooses.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:04 pmIt worked so well for Lyndon Johnson.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:04 pmOops, I just outed myself — again.
Smooth, I ain’t…
November 12th, 2006 at 4:04 pmFrankel’s basic thesis does not require him to prove a belief in spirituality. He is making a phenomenological observation: that people can transcend physical needs for the sake of transcendent values. That sort of behavior was observed in the concentration camps, regardless of whether or not you personally think those values are hallucinatory or are grounded in reality.
Then you can’t use him as an eraser for Maslow. Only Science can do that. So, either you have Scientific proof for Maslow being wrong or you don’t. If you do – by all means present it. But if you don’t, then stop making statements of fact that are not based on facts.
Spirtuality is a lack of proof. You’re trying to compare an orange to a pineapple. And because I’m not buying it, you call me irrational. Funny. In an ironic sort of way.
According to Maslow that type of behavior should be impossible, no matter how it is interpreted.
Comment by John Krew — November 12, 2006 @ 3:53 pm
I disagree. I think these people redefined new standards for their existence. They were underfed and periodically abused, but that is not the same as starved and constantly abused, because they did have moments of perceived comfort, that allowed them to transcend the existence that many people initially could not. You can’t dismiss the many who died under these prolonged conditions. Or ignore that these people, Frankle included, may not have survived if not rescued.
I don’t think he disproved Maslow – just demonstrated that nothing is absolute. And I never said it was. Just highly reliable.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:11 pmThanks!
Comment by Complaint Department — November 12, 2006 @ 4:03 pm
You’re welcome :)
November 12th, 2006 at 4:12 pmNo, correctness is tentative, not subjective.
It’s both. Just depends on the context. And inteh context of your comment, it was subjective.
At least according to the scientific method, a theory approximates correctness if it has provability and helps to explain reality. It stands until it is disproven and then a better theory comes along which does a better job of explaining reality.
Usually it’s not that a better theory comes along, it’s usally that teh original theory is fine tuned or adjusted…
My contention is that Maslow’s pyramid, while explaining much of human behavior, is flawed by its incompleteness in explaining the phenomena presented by Frankel and other historical sources.
So fix it. You don’t throw your car away and start reinventing the wheel just because it has a flat tire…
The guy died before he could finish it. You can’t completely dismiss him as a result of what you perceive to be flaws and I perceive to be your misinterpretation of his intention.
A human has free choice. If he chooses to limit his actions to animal-like behavior, then his behavior will in fact approximate Maslow’s hypothesis.
News flash – we ARE animals. Your inability to accept that does not make it any less true.
But he can transcend that if he so chooses.
Comment by John Krew — November 12, 2006 @ 4:04 pm
There are usually exceptions. the exceptions don’t make the general rules obsolete.
I reject spirituality based on the fact that it is a perception, and nothing more. Go research group hallicinations to get a better understanding of how that works. I am not going to write a dissertation on the matter here when it exists elsewhere.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:18 pmSmooth, I ain’t…
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 4:04 pm
I think we already knew it was you : )
November 12th, 2006 at 4:20 pmIf these jerks are so hot on war, why don’t they just go there themselves and get a really up-close and personal view of it. Put on a uniform and see your friends get blown up. That might sober them up just a tad…
A useful rule of thumb–Don’t ask others to do what you are not willing to do yourself.
Get a multi-national PEACE force together for Iraq. Get the US/Britain/others out of Iraq. Give them the tools to find their own solutions–apparently they want an Islamic nation, don’t force democracy.
Bush and all, stop lying. We’re not stupid.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:26 pmre#106
Nothing is WRONG with the Newtonian Mechanics!.
It is appropriate for masses moving at a velocity much less than the speed of light, for masses much larger than an atom but much smaller than a galaxy, which is the normal circumstances 99.99% of the time!
The other .01% of the time, Einsteinian and Quantum Mechanics, are appropriate.
All three types of mechanics, are RIGHT when used in the proper circumstances!
November 12th, 2006 at 4:31 pmTo unbelievable: once you got past your exchange of self-congratulatory high-fiving with Zooey, you proved yourself to be a worthy interlocutor in arguing your case. Unfortunately, we have now reached the divide separating the metaphysicist from the positivist. Neither of us will succeed in convincing the other. I don’t deny that we have the animal in us, but so do we have the divine image in us as well. Perhaps you have not merited an acquaintanceship with people who evince this in their daily lives, and so for you spirituality is not empirically validated. Thankfully that is not the case for me.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:32 pmBeing on the other side of the Atlantic, it is late and I have to retire now. Good night!
Wait a minute. It seems to me that all the democrats were saying we don’t have enough troops. It seems I heard constant references to the now infamous General Eric Shinseki who said we need more troops. Now when it is time to send in more troops you say no more troops. Make up your damn minds democrats.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:34 pm#1, if the Democrats in Congress would like to impose a military draft when they take over in 2007, I wonder how the public would react? Remember Rangle floated that idea in 2004. Maybe he’ll get another chance.
Also, if this election was about Iraq, how did Lieberman win? He lost in the primaries because the left wingers are anti-Iraq, but he won in the general election because the rest of the population wasn’t quite as liberal.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:38 pmTo criticalthinker: Einsteinian physics is a superset of Newtonian physics. Newtonian physics presumed to explain the .01 % as well, which it did not. So the theory, while approximating reality, was incomplete, and therefore ultimately wrong.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:39 pmGood night!
Comment by John Krew
Whew! Thank goodness he’s gone.
What a dick. :)
November 12th, 2006 at 4:45 pmLook at this old fart cavalierly putting more of our kids in harm’s way in this pointless mayhem. The same with Lieberbush.
Screw them. They’ve had their regime change. It’s now up to Iraqi self-determination. We must leave asap. The Iraqi’s can mop up the interlopers starting trouble. We’ve done enough damage.
November 12th, 2006 at 4:45 pmYou think I should write a book entitled: “How to talk to Godless Conservatives, who claim they are, that claim liberals are Godless”
If that’s intelligence, [Coulter] a lawyer no less, no thanks John.
Some of the most Intelligent, the ‘Best and Brightest’ have said the most idiotic things of late. If you call that using your intelligence [Rovian Politics] No thanks. Besides, What you see today in the media is not problem solving, it’s opinion TV, like these two ranting paranoid cold war warriors above.
‘Fair and balanced’ is subterfuge to be spoonfed to the demotic masses.
Of course we make fun of it!!
Whos stupid enough to believe it!!
November 12th, 2006 at 4:49 pmAll numbers are basically infinite, of course none of the theories work. Duhh
November 12th, 2006 at 4:50 pmOops, I just outed myself — again. Smooth, I ain’t…
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 4:04 pm
oops! that was great!
November 12th, 2006 at 4:51 pmbut #121 was an excellent reason why it’s so much fun to do that…
Just logged on..Yeh another ‘rote trained’ thinker thats for sure…
November 12th, 2006 at 4:52 pmPray tell John, where is this merry go round going and why are you in such a hurry to end the ride?
November 12th, 2006 at 4:54 pmHe already did!
November 12th, 2006 at 4:59 pmhttp://www.govtrack.us/congress/billtext.xpd?bill=h109-4752
H.R. 4752: Universal National Service Act of 2006
Introduced: Feb 14, 2006
Sponsor: Rep. Charles Rangel [D-NY]
Status: Introduced
109TH CONGRESS [boooo!! Hiss Hiss!]
H. R. 4752 2D SESSION
To provide for the common defense by requiring all persons in the United States, including women, between the ages of 18 and 42 to perform a period of military service or a period of civilian service in furtherance of the national defense and homeland security, and for other purposes.
Hey if Maslows Pyramid had included the neurotics it would have looked like a square!!
November 12th, 2006 at 5:00 pmTo unbelievable: once you got past your exchange of self-congratulatory high-fiving with Zooey, you proved yourself to be a worthy interlocutor in arguing your case.
I’d consider that a compliment if it weren’t so drenched in patronization…
Unfortunately, we have now reached the divide separating the metaphysicist from the positivist.
I pointed that out initially, and you insulted me for it – saying I was insulting you. But, glad to see you now see the impasse as well.
Neither of us will succeed in convincing the other.
Was not my intention to convert you. Just explain my reasons for my perspective. Something your side rarely cares about. So it is only fair to mention that you’ve gone one step beyond most of those on your side of the fence. You actually read what I said and instead of making a strawman out of it to attack, you accept that we can disagree and the universe won’t implode. Thanks for that.
I don’t deny that we have the animal in us, but so do we have the divine image in us as well.
If you’re speaking of the appendix and, in your case, male breasts – there is nothing intelligent or divine about our existence. Unless, to you, the divine is teh electromagnetic field in which the universe swims. Then, well, that’s at least Science. But, I’m guessing your divine is more traditaional, and explains why you see things in such absolutistic tones, when I do not. It’s generally the crux of finding concensus with your side.
Perhaps you have not merited an acquaintanceship with people who evince this in their daily lives, and so for you spirituality is not empirically validated. Thankfully that is not the case for me.
Well, I see you cannot accept that I rejected the religion I was born into because it is pointless, and not because I missed something. I haven’t missed anything. I just find it superfluous, as if there are gods, it is each of us that is opur own – controlling what we feel and then in your case, giving it away to invisible beings that you cannot prove. I choose to credit and discredit myself for my own actions – not gods and demons. And because I chose to own my self, I find that doing the right thing is never really a choice, but a simple equation of universal stasis.
Being on the other side of the Atlantic, it is late and I have to retire now. Good night!
Comment by John Krew — November 12, 2006 @ 4:32 pm
Good night.
November 12th, 2006 at 5:19 pmoops! that was great!
but #121 was an excellent reason why it’s so much fun to do that…
Comment by katy
Heh. I guess I didn’t realize how obvious I was.
November 12th, 2006 at 5:20 pmHey if Maslows Pyramid had included the neurotics it would have looked like a square!!
Comment by Dog_named_Boo
Dog_Named_Boo, why do you hate the neurotic?
Is it because we’re not pretty enough?
November 12th, 2006 at 5:22 pmDoes this make me look fat…?
Hey if Maslows Pyramid had included the neurotics it would have looked like a square!!
Comment by Dog_named_Boo — November 12, 2006 @ 5:00 pm
LOL :)
November 12th, 2006 at 5:26 pmDoes this make me look fat…?
Comment by Zooey — November 12, 2006 @ 5:22 pm
Only on Sundays… (j/k).
I somehow have always imagined you as slender. Probably all the hiking – and being from the Bay Area, I suppose. Or, more likely, you just told me… :)
November 12th, 2006 at 5:28 pmWhy don’t we just send McCain and Lieberman to Iraq?
November 12th, 2006 at 5:30 pmBush Sr knew what the outcome of this venture would be. Jr went ahead anyway.. and busted the whole dam cart. We can’t put humpty dumpty back no matter how many troops we interject… We have no blood thirsty strongman to replace Saddam. The Iraqi so called forces can’t or will not stand up… so what the heck will sending more US troops actually do? Bush screwed up the balance of power in the middle east. Everyone knows there is no fix for this… time to pack up and go… Its a dam shame …
November 12th, 2006 at 6:32 pmI’m thinking that more troops would so the trick.
For sure. Say 500,000 total, just like the first Gulf War.
Can we get them over there, by say Christmas?
What if I ask Santa?
November 12th, 2006 at 6:54 pmSince you asked….
Rorschach’s window
Stained-glass dreams
November 12th, 2006 at 6:59 pm
Briseadh na Faire,
Actually I asked the asshole across the pond…
Thank you, my friend.
November 12th, 2006 at 7:14 pm#35 Comment by francais
November 12th, 2006 at 7:18 pmYou are not correct; We opposed the invasion in the first place, as illegal and immoral, BUT, given the fait accompli by Bush&Co, at least they could have used enough troops to get the job done quickly and get out. They didn’t and we find ourselves in a worse state today than we ever could have imagined: those of us opposed to the war are seeing an endless nightmare unfold; those who wanted the war are seeing the same thing.
So don’t say we want it one way and then another — there are 3 1/2 years you don’t account for.
Einsteinian physics is a superset of Newtonian physics. Newtonian physics presumed to explain the .01 % as well, which it did not. So the theory, while approximating reality, was incomplete, and therefore ultimately wrong.
Comment by John Krew
Ha ha ha! Men put satellites in orbit and got to the moon with Newtonian physics. Lorentz´s relations used in Einstein´s theory of relativity were not used to do this. Tell the NASA, Newton was wrong. Ha ha ha!
I swear, Yenta 2 is not me!
I believe you. Didn’t think it was.
Yenta 2 was me. I didnt intend to offend anyone…maybe the “trend” word I used wasnt correct.
November 12th, 2006 at 7:33 pmYenta 2 was me. I didnt intend to offend anyone…maybe the “trend†word I used wasnt correct.
Comment by Juan C
You’re fine, baby.
Maybe you meant “attraction?” Or “interest?” Or “obsession?” :)
Mazel Tov!
November 12th, 2006 at 7:36 pmMcCain and Lieberman seem to have inherited the semi-paralytic, wire-jawed school of politics made famous by walking dead man Henry Kissinger. For increased inflection they should try channeling through their assholes.
November 12th, 2006 at 7:42 pmYou’re fine, baby.
Mazel Tov!
Comment by Yenta
Thanks :)
November 12th, 2006 at 7:44 pmThey can forget it – the american people will be outraged!
November 12th, 2006 at 7:45 pmZionist Jew and tool of Zionist Jews advocating sending more troops on a fools errand to make the mideast safe for Israel should put both on a national watch list. Allowing Mccain to return from Hanoi might have been a bigger mistake than letting Jane Fonda go in the first place.
November 12th, 2006 at 7:46 pmLieberman is looking out for the interests of his country. Of course that country is not the US, it is Israel. Democrats should not take this punk back and let him rot as an independent. Unfortunately, both sides will be courting this twerp.
November 12th, 2006 at 8:06 pmShould be obvious whose side Lieberman is on. Thanks Connecticut, you got your man–and you got your war and your killing and your slaughter.
Watch for more of this from Lieberman, who will defend the slaughter for whatever. It is not bipartisanship, it is complete advocation of the war and the slaughter from Lieberman.
It will be interesting to watch the turncoat as things progress. It is certain he will vote with the Repbul;icans at every opportunity. He owes it to them so that he can declare he is an “independant Democrat”
Dear Harry Reid, please nullify this turn coat. He is a Republican in our midst.
November 12th, 2006 at 8:14 pmPS, McCaion has a huge growth on the left side of his face and we deserve to know what that is all about. His photo ops are mostly limited to showing the right side of his face, but there is something ominous about the growth and the swelling on the left side.
November 12th, 2006 at 8:17 pm#135
Most Democrats did not want to invade and occupy Iraq. Since this war criminal Bush decided to do it, then overwhelming force was required immediately after the invasion to provide security to the country.
The weapon caches have been raided, the militias have been formed, and alliances inside the country have been cemented. To suggest that now is the time to get behind Shinseki’s reccomendations is about 3 1/2 years too late.
If you are so gung ho about killing Iraqi freedom fighters, why don’t you go sign up and fight them? You are one of those arm chaired warmongers and chickenhawks that are more then happy to put more troops into Iraq as long as you aren’t one of the troops fighting in Iraq.
November 12th, 2006 at 8:24 pmno name,
I think that’s scar tissue from a large skin cancer he had removed a few years ago.
November 12th, 2006 at 8:25 pm[...] Watch Video [...]
November 12th, 2006 at 9:03 pmI assume McCain and Lieberman are committing their class to pay for the war, unlike the present. I believe anytime they mention more troops, they should be compelled to state “increased taxes.”
November 12th, 2006 at 9:16 pmProgressives and Democrats had best stop insulting Lieberman lest they lose control of the Senate:
Lieberman refuses to close door on switching parties
November 12, 2006
HARTFORD, Conn. –Sen. Joe Lieberman on Sunday repeated his pledge to caucus with Senate Democrats when the 110th Congress convenes in January, but refused to slam the door on possibly moving to the Republican side of the aisle.
Asked on NBC’s “Meet the Press” if he might follow the example of Sen. Jim Jeffords of Vermont, who left the Republicans in 2001 and became an independent, ending Republican control of the U.S. Senate, Lieberman refused to discount the possibility.
“I’m not ruling it out but I hope I don’t get to that point,” he said.
November 12th, 2006 at 10:46 pmHere is the solution: DRAFT…all citizens 18-42 (THE NEW ENLISTMENT AGE). No deferments, all go. A lottery, 30 days to report. Republicans first, then Democrats, (they call us cut and runners) better save us for last.
November 13th, 2006 at 12:06 amI see what McCain and Lieberman are doing.
They are laying the groundwork for the Karl Rove strategy of trying to get the incoming Democratic majority to do what the outgoing Republican majority wouldn’t do: reinstitute the DRAFT.
I say incoming Democratic leaders in Congress should listen to the sage advice and follow the plan of Rep. Murtha to address the ongoing Bush disaster in Iraq.
So we have a Republican, McCain, and a pseudo Democrat, Lieberman, calling for more troops to throw into Iraq. This week we will probably see the same advice being offered by the heads of the Iraqi Survey Group, the Republican Baker and the pseudo Democrat Hamilton.
Democrats should not fall for it. If a DRAFT is reinstituted by Democrats based on these con-men’s recommendations in an attempt to clean up the mess Bush and his neo-con crony Republican pals have caused in Iraq, then the backlash during the 2008 elections will only lead Democrats to once again lose control of Congress and lose any chance of re-taking the White House.
Don’t fall for it Democrats. Don’t listen to DINO’s like Lieberman. Follow only the advice of Rep. Murtha.
November 13th, 2006 at 12:20 amMaybe the act of many Americans picking themselves up by the bootstraps will result in the ancient waring region of Mesopotamia to act in kind. We all want a better worlld, if we leave that third of the world to its own devices, they will impose their anachronistic way of life upon us.
November 13th, 2006 at 12:50 amStart the Draft.
Al Qaeda and Iran believe that since we put Dems in charge of Congress that we are open for attack and won’t have the guts to fight back because their (Dems) liberal wing are appeasers. Because they believe that to be a fact they will probably hit us soon and this entire discussion will be moot.
Fortunately for America, although the Dems have a majority it is not a dangerous one at this time – the only person that gives them a majority in the Senate is Lieberman….and many of the new Dems elected in the House this year are not raging liberals like the leadership. The Reps still have the veto power in the WH and the Dems cannot over ride it. For the time being there is still some sanity and balance left in the govt.
November 13th, 2006 at 1:04 amI keep remembering the old Oliver Hardy line ” What a terrible mess you got us into”. I don’t what this useless war is leading us to. Bush and company thought they are leading us to Pax Americana. They are leading us right but I don’t where
November 13th, 2006 at 3:03 amAmusing lot, these humans with their ongoing antics, the war mongers most representative of their yet intellectual dark ages. Would you not agree?
DougBuchanan.com, previously foolish Vietnam veteran.
November 13th, 2006 at 4:39 amMcCain says, “I believe that a withdrawal or a date for withdrawal will lead to chaos in the region.”
What does this fool think we have now, if not chaos?
Besides, where are they going to find another 50,000 troops. How about reinstating the draft, or even recalling Viet Nam veterns?
November 13th, 2006 at 5:50 amwill someone stealthily take McCain’s fingerprints off of a water glass….and find an old guitar owned by Mark farner of 1969 American Band” Grand Funk Railroad. If they match,and they will if tested fairly, then will someone on telly ask Mr. Glen Fry(same guy again) and Glen Fry of the Eagle’s in 1972 why he was not in that Vietamese prisoner of war camp? How did he get out,…and does that have something to do with how McCain was able to open trade relations with VietNam and broker a billion dollar deal(at better than 10 % commissions I would reakon) for AT&T and others.
November 13th, 2006 at 6:06 amWhy dont we send McCain and Lieberman and all the GOPervz who caused this bullshit to Iraq including Daddy Bush and then let the Israeli army take over with them to fight and be be blown up.
We need to also send the GOP and Israel a bill for the total cost of this total mistake waste that will run about 100 trillion overall including the paynacl to Iraq since Iraq had nothing to with 911.
Release Saddam and get out. Stay out. Never elect another GOPervert ever and outlaw the party. Jail Bush and then turn him over to the Muslims to keep. They know what to do with this lying scumbag silver spooner chickenchit.
November 13th, 2006 at 7:49 amThat’s such an f-n cop out answer. “We need more troops.” We don’t have more troops to send. So Mr. McCain and Mr. Lieberman, if you aren’t prepared to resign from the senate and grab a gun, I suggest you find another solution.
November 13th, 2006 at 8:47 amThere’s National Guard and Reservists in their 50’s and 60’s over in Iraq. If these maggot bastard politicians want more troops in Iraq I suggest they send themselves. They’re not too old to get shot at.
November 13th, 2006 at 1:37 pmI don’t believe that Al Quida, Iran and other militant Islamic groups are out to get us. We provoked them by stepping on their turf and involving ourselves tight with Israel. Until this (Palestine & Israel) is resolved, we will continue to be a target. The government refuse to see the obvious.
November 13th, 2006 at 2:28 pmReply to #4:
I don’t think it would significantly improve things even if the GOP got their “50,000 extra.” As it is, once the Democratic-controlled Senate goes to do the sensible thing (withdraw), Lieberman’s probably gonna switch parties(he’s already hinting at this), force a tie with a party-line vote, and Cheney will break the tie. Ipso facto, GOP control of the Senate once again. Lieberman can join Benedict Arnold and Vidkun Quisling.
November 13th, 2006 at 2:59 pmLet’s see, both parties have lied repeatedly for at least the last 60 years. And you idiots keep voting for them on the hope that somehow this time it will be different. I guess old P.T. Barnum was right, there IS a sucker born every minute!
No WONDER they lie to you — they KNOW you are idiots!
November 13th, 2006 at 4:09 pmLieberman and McCain are both cheerleaders for the Neoconservative agenda, and both of them regularly change their allegiences. They are both crying out for more of the same in Iraq and you can well believe that it is for their benefit.
I lose my groceries when I hear the lieing rats doing nothing but kissing pappa Bush’s ass. Dubya has been reduced to a sock puppet, while the Iraq Study Group gets ready to call for more troops for…Syria and Iran? We are in for a rough ride folks, unless our Democratic majority can hold these idiotic ideologues at bay.
The people have spoken, and our representatives have relayed our wishes, but if the Bush administration has heard it, they sure don’t act like it. No more complacency!…The people will be heard, not only in America, but throughout the world.
November 13th, 2006 at 5:24 pmMaybe Lieberman has a sex scandal in his closet that someone will dig up before Jan. 20, and we can be rid of the bum before he can even draw that dagger out to stab Democrats in the back.
November 13th, 2006 at 5:31 pmThere is no such thing as Al Quaeda. In Arabic, Al Quaeda means “the toilet”. Most big bad “terrorists” would probably think up a better name. #175 thinks they are going to “hit us soon”…..when did they ever “hit us” before?
Der Fuehrer says,”be afraid. Be very afraid. Al Quaeda is out to get you. Now let me see your papers.”
November 13th, 2006 at 6:27 pmIf we pull out now, we lose. America cannot afford another “compromise” like VN. If we stay, we must win, at all costs. The only way to do that is to increase the number of troops we have there. The enemy has done this and we have to do the same. We must also allow our troops to use more firepower. Yes, this will mean more civilian deaths, but unfortunately that is the only way to win. We have to bring America’s strength to bear on our enemies. It is how we fight wars and how we win them. It is a big mess over there but we must, at all costs, support our troops. Having them die in vain is not the way to do this. Bush should have replaced Rummy with Colon Powell. His doctrine would not have resulted in this mess in the first place. We will never leave the middle east, we can’t now, that is a fact. If we abandon Iraq, we must also abandon Afghanistan. If we don’t, the insurgents will simply come there and fight us. If we leave both places, the terrorists will attack us here at home. It is obvious what we must do, someone just has to have the balls to do it.
November 13th, 2006 at 9:28 pmMore troops in IRAQ???
Where did I put my tar and feathers! Support the Troops, get them out of IRAQ now!
November 13th, 2006 at 10:16 pmScrew you McCain and Leiberman. Watch out for more “manufactured terrorism”, Mossad agents posing as Al Qaeda.
Wow, an extreme position held by EIGHT PERCENT of americans is deemed moderate by the right wing media. And Meet The Conservatives Timmeh Russert didn’t have the 92% position represented on his show.
hmmmmm.
November 13th, 2006 at 11:16 pmMacdaddy (#189)
If civilian casualties are of no consequence to you (and clearly you have no conscience whatsoever about the 650,000 innocents murdered by your evil country in Iraq already), then why pussyfoot around with such half-measures? Why not just withdraw your troops and nuke Iraq out of existence (using neutron weapons, of course, to preserve the oilwells to keep your SUVs running and simultaneously gaining another block of lebensraum for Eretz Israel)? After all, the Iraqis are, as Menachim Begin put it, like all Arabs, no better than “human excrement”, right?
November 14th, 2006 at 12:15 amI never said that civilian casualties were of “no consequence.” I said that these casualties were inevitable. They should be avoided whenever possible but unfortunately, they cannot be altogether eliminated. If you, and others, are so willing to pull out now, what was your stance earlier? I hope you haven’t changed your mind. But of course you can afford that luxury, you aren’t the one out there fighting. As far as my country being “evil” I think you misstate this. My “country” is founded upon a concept, not an administration. As long as “We the people” exist there is hope for change. Again, it takes balls to make these changes. We must be able to separate our political thinking from our military thinking to some extent when it comes to the issue of retreating. This does require some degree of intelligence so bear with me. I am not attempting to address the political arena here, just the military side. Number 1. Our Military is fighting wars in Iraq and Afghanistan. Number 2. They are dying in numbers that are unacceptable considering the gains they are making. Number 3. There is no “politically” acceptable strategy to gain conclusion. Number 4. We have done this before. OK, I will assume that you know something about strategy and tactics. If not, then pick up a book titled, “On War” by Carl Von Clausewitz and read a little about it. Wars are an extension of politics. Wars are fought by the military not the politicians. Politics end when the fighting begins and resurface at, or are a cause of, the conclusion of hostilities. This is mistake number one we have made, and are still making. We all know from VN that the ground commanders should be allowed to fight and win our wars, not those in Washington. But it is us, the nonsupporting, loudmouthed, VOTING, civilians who influence their decisions. Instead of whining and crying about deserting our brave soldiers in Iraq and pulling them out before they can win, you should be pushing for more authority to be given to the soldiers fighting the “real time” war over there. A simple look at the situation will show that we are outnumbered. Read the chapter on Force space ratios about this.
When a war is fought, target assessment is essential for victory. This is why infrastructure is taken out. These achievements limit the enemies ability to resist. Part of these targets are the supply systems themselves. In a partisan, or insurgent, war, which is what we are fighting, the enemy gets it’s supplies from where? Yes, the civilian population, in part. Does this mean we must kill civilians? Sometimes yes, sometimes no. If you are transporting explosives, food, or ammunition to our enemies, then you deserve to be treated as an enemy. If you die, then good. If your children die in the crossfire, then maybe you should have done something about it sooner. Before this is disputed, consider: if you want democracy, then YOU have to do something to get it. Surprise! You wake up one morning and a war is going on in your country. You have a sniper shooting from your bedroom window. What do you think is going to happen to your house in the next few minutes? Get out! Become a refugee, get your family to safety, return and fight for your own freedom! When roadside bombs repeatedly go off on on a street beside your village and you warn no one or try to stop it, guess what is going to happen? I know, the solution is to let our soldiers die in great numbers so you can drive your SUV with a “clear conscience.” Here is the deal….get with the program or prepare to be overrun!
I could go on and on about this but as anyone can see, the job isn’t getting done over there. It’s past time it started.
November 14th, 2006 at 11:50 amThe Majority of Americans may say ” get out of Iraq… now” but most may reconsider this where they to seriously think about it. Going to Iraq to topple Hussein was the RIGHT thing to do. If Gore was elected in 2000, OR if 9/11 had happened on Clintons watch… BOTH Gore and Clinton would have done the same! Yes…what has transpired since the topple is a BAD situation. Basically we were jumped by terrorist insurgents, and now we MUST fight back.
I feel better with McCains position, and would hope that Lieberman joins him for the 2008 campaign.
November 14th, 2006 at 2:00 pmDid I hear you say that both Liebermann and McCain are encouraging their children and grand children to join the military so that they can serve in Iraq?
November 14th, 2006 at 11:06 pmDid I hear you correctly? Did you say that both Liebermann and McCain are encouraging their children and grand children to join the military so that they can serve in Iraq?
November 14th, 2006 at 11:08 pm[...] McCain has repeatedly said that he would like to see another 20,000 U.S. troops in Iraq. As General Abizaid explained, McCain’s plan runs counter towards our goal in Iraq — specifically, the Iraqis taking responsibility for their own country. Abizaid said, “It is easy for the Iraqis to rely upon to us do this work. I believe that more American forces prevent the Iraqis from doing more, from taking more responsibility for their own future.” [...]
November 15th, 2006 at 1:43 pmI think most of you people dont see the bigger picture. If we leave Iraq, the region will become a huge terror haven and we will definetely get attacked again. I think we need more troops to squash the insurgency. Strength in numbers is the name of this game. When we fought Iraq in 1991, we had half a million troops in the region. In this war we sent not even a third of that number. I dont understand why we didnt do that in the beggining of this war. We would not have the problems we have now. We need to reverse this mistake and send many more troops in order to kill the enemy. I believe that this war is not about Shiites and Sunni’s not liking eachother. They got along fine under Saddams regime. Many Muslims get along in this and many other western nations. I think that people have to realize that it is the terrorists and fanatical Muslims that are causing the problems. Lets just wait and see what happens after they hand Saddam.
November 16th, 2006 at 8:42 pmHow about we see a McCain/Lieberman presidential ticket
November 16th, 2006 at 8:43 pm[...] Yeah, chaos over there would be bad. (tags: war iraq stupidity america!) [...]
November 22nd, 2006 at 10:08 pm[...] Less than a month ago, Lieberman was significantly less committed to escalation in Iraq, saying only that “I think we have to be open to that as a way to succeed.” [...]
December 3rd, 2006 at 11:30 am