FACT CHECK: Increasing Troop Levels In Baghdad Made Violence Worse
FACT CHECK: Increasing Troop Levels In Baghdad Made Violence Worse
The Guardian reports that the Bush administration may be heeding McCain’s calls for an escalation in Iraq:
President George Bush has told senior advisers that the US and its allies must make “a last big push” to win the war in Iraq and that instead of beginning a troop withdrawal next year, he may increase US forces by up to 20,000 soldiers, according to sources familiar with the administration’s internal deliberations.
We’ve seen a “big push” in Baghdad before. In mid-June, President Bush announced a major effort to secure Baghdad, stating at a news conference that over 7,000 U.S.-led coalition troops would be moved into the city. “This operation is a joint effort to restore security and rule of law to high-risk areas in the capital city,” Bush said.
A record number of Iraqi civilians were reported killed in October. “Statistics issued by the Interior Ministry for Iraqis killed in political violence put civilian deaths last month at 1,289. That is nearly 42 a day and is up 18% from the 1,089 seen in September. September’s figures themselves were a record high.” In Baghdad, the morgue reported the official toll of violent deaths in August was 1535, a level in line with previous months.
Administration officials have been forced to concede that the Baghdad big push had failed:
BUSH: After some initial successes, our operations to secure Baghdad have encountered greater resistance. Some of the Iraqi security forces have performed below expectations. … I know many Americans are not satisfied with the situation in Iraq. I’m not satisfied, either.
AMBASSADOR KHALILZAD: It has not produced the results I expected so far. The plan is being reviewed, and adjustments will be made. No, it has not performed to the level that was expected.
GEN. CALDWELL: Operation Together Forward has made a difference in the focus areas but has not met our overall expectations of sustaining a reduction in the levels of violence.
359 U.S. troops have died since the Baghdad operation began. Moreover, U.S. deaths in Iraq peaked last month, the deadliest month of the Iraq war since American forces made big pushes in Fallujah in April and November of 2004.
The lessons from the last “big push” in Baghdad demonstrates that the American occupation is fueling the insurgency’s fire. A recent poll of Iraqis indicated that support for attacks on U.S.-led forces has grown to a majority position — now six in ten. The administration is apparently ready to make the same mistake once again.
Sort Comments By: Top Rated | Date
102 Responses to “FACT CHECK: Increasing Troop Levels In Baghdad Made Violence Worse”
Topic Cloud
ArchivesBlog Roll
A Way Out Of Iraq
Sen. Russ Feingold
November 16, 2006
Russ Feingold is a United States senator from Wisconsin.
On Election Day, the American people weighed in at the ballot box: They want to get our troops out of Iraq. Voters rejected the president’s failed Iraq policy, putting Democrats in charge of Congress and responsible for setting a new direction for Iraq, and, most importantly, for our national security.
Democrats agree that we should begin redeploying troops, but some do not want to set a target deadline for the majority of troops to be withdrawn. That is a mistake. Without a target date, redeployment could drag on indefinitely. The president consistently refused to set a target date for withdrawal, and Democrats shouldn’t follow in his footsteps. Democrats should move forward with a new Iraq policy that includes a target date for the redeployment of U.S. troops so that we can refocus on defeating global terrorist networks.
On Tuesday, I introduced legislation requiring U.S. forces to redeploy from Iraq by July 1, 2007. My legislation recognizes that a target date for the redeployment of U.S. troops from Iraq will help pressure the Iraqis to get their political house in order. Simply announcing when we will begin redeployment, without any end date, is unlikely to put adequate pressure on the Iraqis.
A target date isn’t just critical to our Iraq policy, it is essential for our national security policy. We cannot adequately focus on the pressing national security challenges we face around the globe when so many of our brave troops are in Iraq, and so many billions of U.S. taxpayer dollars are being spent there. A timetable ensures that we can refocus our resources on fighting terrorist networks and on addressing trouble spots around the world that threaten our national security.
Because problems in Iraq won’t dry up overnight, my legislation would allow for a minimal level of U.S. forces to remain in Iraq for targeted counterterrorism activities, training of Iraqi security forces, and the protection of U.S. infrastructure and personnel.
But our current Iraq policy is making the United States weaker, not stronger. The president has continually refused to change our current approach in Iraq, despite a growing number of policymakers and experts, including many Republicans, advocating for a change of course. Voters responded to his failed policies by putting Democrats in control of Congress. They want to change course, and they have given Democrats the chance to finally put our national security policy right by proposing a timetable for redeploying U.S. troops from Iraq.
The president’s policy has us in Iraq with no end in sight. But the Iraqis need an end in sight to get their political house in order, and we need an end in sight so we can get back to fighting terrorist networks. Our disproportionate focus on Iraq has undermined our ability to confront the terrorist threat around the globe. Now Democrats can start to turn these wrong-headed policies around. But we won’t do that by continuing our open-ended commitment of troops on Iraq. And we won’t do it with tepid or muddled policies of our own. We will do it by setting a target date for redeployment, so that we can direct our resources to defeating the terrorist organizations that seek to harm this country.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:29 pmYeah, right. The Iraqi government recently kicked our ass out of Sadr City while looking for a missing American soldier. Who do Bush and McCain think they are kidding with this "last push" talk.
Besides, McCain and Bush are now on the same page with their “last push†policy for Iraq as both want to put in another 20,000 troops while the lead General says he has enough right now.. As TPM says in the following, this advise is coming from none other than Henry Kissinger, too.
http://www.talkingpointsmemo.com/archives/011145.php
Kissinger, of course, was the person behind the last push operation in Vietnam --- the invasion into the Parrot’s Beak area of Cambodia.
What that operation did was to cause the fall of the government in Cambodia and the emergence of Pol Pot, probably the most brutal dictator of the time.
Anybody is absolutely nuts to think that history will not repeat itself if the last push folly is implemented in Iraq. This is the most hairbrained idea I have heard floated since the last time Henry Kissinger floated it. Kissingerization of war policy must not be permitted, period.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:34 pmDear President Bush;
November 16th, 2006 at 12:36 pmPlease look up the definition of insanity.
20'000 troops is hardly a big push. There's a large army of insurgents looming out in the Iraqi desert. There are legions of people waiting for an opportunity to avenge atrocities by the respective other ethnic group. 20'000 is simply not enough. 200'000 would not be enough. The whole notion that this conflict can be won at all by military means is erroneous. Somebody has set fire to the woods and is now horrified that it is burning and most likely burning up.
Get all the people necessary, Iranians, Syrians, Arabs, Sunnis, Shiites, Kurds and make them talk to each other and to you. The political price is high. But saving the life of even a single man, woman or child by ending this conflict politically is worth any political price.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:40 pm"last big push", huh? To counter the "last throes" of the insurgency I presume.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:42 pmIncreasing Troop Levels In Baghdad Made Violence Worse
I would say that is obvious.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:43 pmRemember in 2004 when Bush said the people had voted and he had a mandate. Well he isn't listening any more because the 2006 voters clearly want his mess ended.
So the only recourse is to impeach the idiot.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:47 pmMore BushCo "no one could have foreseen or predicted that" incompetence.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:49 pm20,000 more baby killing Christian monsters.
Just what the world needs.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:51 pmMr. Russert: do you think the American people are prepared for a long, costly, and bloody battle with significant American casualties?
Vice President Cheney: Well, I don't think it's likely to unfold that way, Tim, because I really do believe that we will be greeted as liberators.
Cheney is not the stupid one, but the people who thought he was right.
November 16th, 2006 at 12:54 pmThey who hateth me .. Loveth death.
November 16th, 2006 at 1:01 pm- Jesus
Where do the 20,000 troops come from?
November 16th, 2006 at 1:08 pmJohn Jodka, a private, apologised to the family of Hashim Ibrahim Awad, 52, after pleading guilty to aggravated assault and conspiracy to obstruct justice during a hearing at the marines' Camp Pendleton base.
Aggravated assault? Is that a nice way to say: shot to death? But you know, James, I just feel sorry for the kid, he is going to have that dead iraqi in his head the rest of his life.
November 16th, 2006 at 1:12 pmWhat you do to the lease of me my children ye do also unto me
So much for Christian love.
November 16th, 2006 at 1:12 pmGW Bush, June 2006: "I know there is a lot of discussion about troop levels. Those troop levels will be decided upon by General Casey."
http://www.whitehouse.gov/news/releases/2006/06/20060614.html
Gen. Abizaid, November 2006: "Senator McCain, I met with every divisional commander, General Casey, the core commander, General Dempsey, we all talked together. And I said, in your professional opinion, if we were to bring in more American Troops now, does it add considerably to our ability to achieve success in Iraq? And they all said no."
And now we see George Bush is planning to increase troop numbers.
Still a pathological liar, evidently.
November 16th, 2006 at 1:16 pmYou do not solve a situation of mass murder and genocide by sending more killing machines to the front. Rather you solve it by removing the killing machines and eliminating the source of the effort.
The american people have spoke, and through the efforts and energies of people such as yourselves that message has been delivered and heard. I fear, however, that the tendency towards complacency of the american people in regard to the accountability of its government will allow for the murderous malcontents to continue their heinous atrocities through avenues of deception and diversion.
I make a plea to you all to expand your efforts to deliver your message and not relax in a false state of contentment due to your apparent "victory". Do not confuse "effort" with "results". Until you are out of Iraq and the murders have ended then all that you have accomplished is that of changing the window dressings at the factory while ignoring what is being produced.
I beg you to realize that you are not at the end but rather just at the beginning.
May peace be with us all.
November 16th, 2006 at 1:21 pmHumanist - "The american people have spoke"
November 16th, 2006 at 1:32 pmToo bad the chimp hasn't learned how to listen as well as he has lurned how to decider.
So which is it TP? "More troops to quell the insurgency" or "Less troops so as not to inflame the poor misunderstood enemy?"
"The Guardian" has been rationalizing the enemies position and rooting for a rout of the US and her allies since THE beginning. Come to think of it, as TP and the majority of Progs do the same, this source is NOT surprising.
Til later......
November 16th, 2006 at 1:39 pmThe last big push sounds like the push at Bastogne , un act of despairation . THE CHAOS in Iraq is the result of incompetent decisions by the decider in chief . The arm forces can leave Iraq with their head high , they performed well , " with the army they had " .
November 16th, 2006 at 1:43 pmNow is the time to leave , the futur in Iraq looks grimer than ever , any action we undertake will make matters worse .
Abezaid presentation in congress looked , to me, confused unsure of his words , too cautious for his future . The sooner we leave Iraq the better.
Anatomy of a Civil War
Iraq’s descent into chaos
Nir Rosen
[snip]
Rather than remaking the Middle East, the Iraq war has destabilized it. Sunnis throughout the region who already have so many reasons to hate the United States—Abu Ghraib, the Haditha massacre, the rape and murder of an Iraqi girl, Guantanamo—would now have one more, for the Americans would have handed Iraq over to the Shias. We are seeing the death throes, not the birth pangs, of a new Middle East.
The Bush administration persists in its assertions of progress and clings to the idea that something called victory is possible. What victory? By every measure, life is worse for the Iraqis (leaving aside the Kurds, who don’t want to be Iraqis anyway). They are dying by the dozens or the hundreds every day—nobody even knows how many, since the Anbar province and much of the south, and even much of Baghdad, are black holes, with no information coming out. Hundreds of thousands of Iraqis have died violently since the war began, probably eclipsing the number of Saddam’s victims. The ministry of health was recently ordered again not to disclose the number of casualties. The United Nations’ torture expert has stated that torture in Iraq is now worse than it was under Saddam. Over 1.5 million Iraqis have fled their country, to Jordan, Syria, and Egypt, and in late 2006 one European official in Syria estimated that up to 3,000 Iraqis a day were fleeing into that country.
[Keywords: Al Dawa, Supreme Council for the Islamic Revolution of Iraq, SCIRI, Iraq, Islamic fundamentalism, Bush doctrine]
November 16th, 2006 at 1:44 pmHey, MA, would you please repost your last entry? I had accidently activated my bullshit filter and just had a blank field over your sig.
November 16th, 2006 at 1:44 pmmighty aphrodite
Just curious, how many more oceans of blood and treasure must be spilled for the sake of the Islamic fundamentalist republic now thriving in Iraq?
November 16th, 2006 at 1:45 pmaccidentally
November 16th, 2006 at 1:45 pmGovt. Mule: "They who hateth me .. Loveth death.
- Jesus"
Hey Mule: "Be not like the hypocrites... -Jesus"
November 16th, 2006 at 1:48 pmWhy does it always have to be about "winning"? Wouldn't it be better to do the right, moral and "Christian" thing instead of worrying about winning? It sounds like they're playing a video game. The right thing to do would be to get the hell out of there and to stop the killing. Wouldn't this be what Jesus would do if he were alive today? Are you paying attention right-wing zealot Christians?
November 16th, 2006 at 1:49 pmOn another note, from Reuters;
GENEVA (Reuters) - The United States called on Thursday for states to voluntarily restrict the use of anti-vehicle mines, which cause civilian casualties and hamper humanitarian work.
But together with Russia, China and other military powers, it was holding out against any move at a Geneva weapons conference to open negotiations on curbing cluster bombs, which take a big civilian toll, anti-mine activists said.
It's OK to cluster bomb civilians, but damn, stop blowing up our armored Humvees!
November 16th, 2006 at 1:50 pmThe Mighty Strawman, "out standing in its field", looks past the ears of corn that never listen to it and shouts for attention and recognition from someone. Yet, its frantic waving arms and irrational verbal outbursts just further scare away any who might respond.
November 16th, 2006 at 1:50 pm#17-RUCerious,
Actually, that should have read "The american people have spoken" but other than a negative effect on the grammar the spelling error did not change the message.
What you, and the american people as a whole, need to do is educate your president (and, apparently, yourselves) that he is not the "decider" but rather an employee who does YOUR bidding. Why you all choose to ignore this reality, especially since it is crafty so eloquently into your Constitution, is beyond me.
Oh, and don't get fooled into falling for mighty aphrodite's trojan horse argument. The REAL choice is a) Send in more killing machines to increase the killing or b) End the killing and achieve peace.
Anyone who presents the situation as different from that is attempting to deceive you. Let mighty aphrodite stew it its own hate alone. It seems to enjoy that for whatever perverted reason.
Peace.
November 16th, 2006 at 1:51 pmuhclem -
November 16th, 2006 at 1:52 pmNearly all MA's posts peg out my incredularityometer.
Humanist - Many of us here in the US, while committed to our democratic traditions, realize this bastard stole one or both elections that put him in power.
If we could teach him to do anything, it would start with telling the truth about anything.
He cleverly refuses to call for a draft, instead stop gapping the National Guard units and sapping our ability to actually defend ourselves.
We know he's the worst president ever. I regularly contact my representative and badger him about impeachment. No real response.
I will certainly try to back someone other than he in the next election.
PS. I didn't vote for Bush.
November 16th, 2006 at 1:57 pmRUCerious: "I regularly contact my representative and badger him about impeachment."
How can any elected representative answer any question about the viability of impeachment when no hearings have been held?
November 16th, 2006 at 2:05 pmRUCerious,
I understand your rage and the inclination towards vengeance. However, doling out punishment for a crime in process is a blatant case of putting the cart before the horse.
End the killing. Stop the torture. Regain your honor and the protections of your inalienable rights. Reacquaint yourself with your humanity and civility. Then, if you still feel it important, punish those who led you astray.
Peace.
November 16th, 2006 at 2:25 pm"One cannot eat as much as one would like to vomit."
November 16th, 2006 at 2:34 pmMA is just a braindead fascist. Blind and WILLINGLY following a deluded leader. The only difference between Hetlir and Bosh is that Hetlir is dead. Everything these mentally ill people come up with must anger a peaceful and educated mind. How much crap can one take? Thanks to dumb people like MA there will be nukes going off here sooner or later. Because their rudimental brain sprout does not provide for CONTEMPLATING about the real causes of the status quo. Just keep dying until there are no more fascists around. Sieg Heil?
And 70% to 80% say it s OK to KILL AMERICANS
November 16th, 2006 at 2:48 pmBRING THE TROOPS HOME NOW!!!!!!!!!
Fredric L. Rice, with all due respect, you are a blasted moron.
Remember, these "20,000 more baby killing Christian monsters" as you put it are the same great men and women that defend EVERY Americans right to slander them. And keep in mind that some of them are Jewish, Muslim and Athiest as well. What do you call the bastards that are killing not only Americans, but also those Iraqis that support us being there? Freedom fighters? Freedom is the one thing they fear.
If you would like to challenge me on this, my e-mail is Bulls-it1@lycos.com
I guess belittleing the military that defends this great nation is a "progressive" way to think.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:03 pmComment by Bluedog49 - I repeatedly email my rep. I ask about his stance, his intentions, his actions. And he repeatedly emails me back that if it came up, he'd back it, but only if the leadership leads on it.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:11 pmIn other words, he's going to follow the leader-ship.
#25 - "Why does it always have to be about “winning� Wouldn’t it be better to do the right, moral and “Christian†thing instead of worrying about winning?...: - Comment by Willy
******One of my Mini-Aphrodites' (the fourth grader) asked a VERY similar (and very sweet) question the other morning. Mr. Aphrodite answered, "Mini, it's not about winning - it's about keeping our country safe and stayng alive. To lose to these people would not mean a handshake and 'I'm sorry'. It would be GREAT if people we're fighting now would get along like we do. We have people of all different religions here and some people who don't choose to believe in God. We have people who vote for Democrats and people who vote for Republicans. Some people don't vote at all. But we don't go around killing each like barbarians - you can't pet a rabid dog...."
I think that explains the question Wee Willy poses of ,"Why can't we all just get along?" Remember, Willy, there are is no such thing as a stupid question - - but we'll be happy to make an exception in your case!
Toooodles.....
November 16th, 2006 at 3:13 pmHumanist ??
November 16th, 2006 at 3:15 pmWhile I want impeachment, where do you see an ' inclination towards vengeance' in anything I posted?
In order to stop the violence, we need to remove this idiot and his cabal from power. Short of a violent revolution, which ain't gonna happen, we should remove them from power as their illegal actions while in office warrant.
Why is it so difficult to relate a universal principle into every aspect of life?
November 16th, 2006 at 3:18 pmIt is not only said 'What goes around comes around' but almost unanimously agreed on that:
'Every action has an equal and opposite reaction'. Just pump
in some more troops and motivate more people to pick up arms and bombs. How stupid is all this?
Robert,
Just as FLR's rant is moronic, your "other side of the coin" blanket categorization of the "troops" as saints is equally asinine. Before you come unglued, understand that I served myself and I can say without hesitation that I served honorably.
Both of you are wrong. You both come from different angles but are both focusing on the tools and ignoring the carpenters. Make no mistake, members of the various militaries are tools. Granted some are good and some are bad, but they are servants to a cause and not the directors of it.
And, so that you gain some understanding, a nation that kills innocent people based on falsehoods and continues to kill the innocents after learning of the falsehoods is not "great", at least not in a positive sense. Sorry for that dose of reality but you needed it.
May peace be with us all.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:19 pmYou mean the "illegal" actions that the Constitution affords him, right? You know, the one's where he has to go to the Republicans and the Democrats each month and tell him what he's doing. So, if you throw him out, throw out the Democrats to because they alsow know what's going on. Perhaps we should stop wiretapping the teorrorists and let them blow us up more? Would you then feel happy?
Let's pull out of Iraq and give up. That's the American, err, liberal way. IMagine FDR telling the world, "We'll fight HItler, but after 4 years, we're done, regardless of where we stand or if Germany is still standing."
November 16th, 2006 at 3:21 pm#40
You are flat out wrong. I also served.
We aren't TARGETING innocents!! They are.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:23 pmI see there is a moderator who removes all posts that aren't agreeable to the left-wing format.
Okay to call Christians baby killers however. Just don't mock the lefties, err, progressives. I don't know, whatever monikor you keep changing to. Skip a few steps and just get back to being Marxists.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:26 pmlying,
You are a fool to make such a comparison. Did FDR order the attack of Sweden in order to combat the Germans? No. Your position is that you should continue to allow the rape until the rapist climaxes because the job needs to be finished is as moronic as it is small minded.
Peace.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:29 pm#38
Yes, I voted for Bush and am very proud of it. He has noble and worthy cause of trying to bring freedom and democracy to a part of the world that is ruled by totalitarian dictators who torture, maim, rape, kill and indoctrinate their people into hatred of Jews and the West.
Wow, what an evil man he is.
Comment by You are lying — November 16, 2006 @ 3:14 pm
The real meaning is:
Yes, I voted for Hitler and am very proud of it. He has noble and worthy cause of trying to bring freedom and democracy to parts of the world that are ruled by totalitarian dictators who torture, maim, rape, kill and indoctrinate their people into hatred of Arabs and the East.
Wow, what an great man he is.
Braindead dumb fascists.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:30 pmlying,
And the 600,000 plus dead Iraqis were guilty of what?
Peace.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:33 pmHumanist-Your post #40 was insightfull but missed the mark. Make no mistake, I am currently serving and fully realize that not all that serve are saints. I never said that. But to color them all with the same brush is wrong. Some are murderers and as they are caught, they are tried.
As you put it, focus on the carpenter and not the tool.
But can you say that this nation that contributes more to world causes more than any other and basically supports the UN financially is not great because of some of the bad that has happened? That to is wrong.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:34 pmRobert,
You do not need to spend your time convincing me, there are 600,000 plus (and counting) dead Iraqis (CHILDREN, women, and men) whom you need to present your argument to about how "great" the current USA is.
Greatness is not inherited, it is achieved through present actions. I implore you to search your soul for some answers there.
May peace be with us all.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:44 pmWhat a waste of time it is to even try to make these lemmings think. America goes down certainly not because of the LIBERALIS but of the masses of people with fascist ideas. And yes, for Hitler everybody that didn't approve of his sick agenda was a terrorist. History always repeats itself. Like in Hollywood.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:46 pmAnd get one thing straight: Liberals don't hate America, they hate the people who made this a totalitarian state. I wish the Dems had never gotten the seats in the houses. Because it is them now who are responsible for the fascist mess.
Humanist- I guess the food, cloths, and medical assistance that those in Iraq recieve not just from the Military, but also from the American public do not count for anything. Or the fact that the Iraqis are not afraid to pass a death sentence on Saddam.
Also, you need to remember that those 600,000 dead Iraqis did not die by American hands alone.
As one that served YOU need to remember the 3000 American brothers and sisters of ours that have lost their lives over there. To "cut and run" would make their deaths meaningless.
I am not saying that we are right or wrong in being there. But I can not sit by while some blow hard like FLR demonizes the men and women that give him the very right to post such things.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:02 pmRobert,
Removing immediately my brothers and sisters who currently serve in Iraq in a crusade based on falsehoods, deception, and greed is the ONLY way to honor those who have lost their lives already. It is the only way to restore any honor or dignity to the mission. Once you realize that you have been duped into participating in a heinous crime, you do not continue the crime just so that you can say that you finished the job that you started. That's bogus and you know it.
The aid to the living does have elements of compassion, yes. However, when done while simultaneously reducing their numbers through extermination shows no compassion, just deceptive window dressing.
And finally, your argument that the USA is not fully responsible for ALL of the 600,000 plus deaths is disingenuous. I cannot believe that you would honestly believe that such a statement would cast ambiguity upon the responsibility of the USA for this atrocity.
Please participate in the effort to immediately end this murderous crusade. Looking for ways to justify inaction only serves to dilute further what remains of your collective dignity.
May peace be with us all.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:22 pmI'm deeply saddened that this adminisration is sending 20,000 more of our young people to die for the Bush legacy. Deeply saddened.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:40 pmI guess belittleing the military that defends this great nation is a “progressive†way to think.
Comment by Robert
I have a question...Robert. Protect you from who? Do you realize that almost all wars youve been involved have been provoked by YOU?
Grab a history book, a map and start apologizing for all the dead innocents your TROOPS have been left to rotten across the world. So far 500,000+ in Iraq directly or indirectly produced by your war machine...so before you get sentimental about your TROOPS, I suggesto you to educate yourself.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:59 pmBut can you say that this nation that contributes more to world causes more than any other and basically supports the UN financially is not great because of some of the bad that has happened? That to is wrong.
Comment by Robert
Want me to post a HUGE list of all invasions, occupations, landings, supports of destabilizing groups, etc. that US has done since you wiped indians from their legitimate country? Or not?
Want me to post the 70 UN resolutions that US has vetoed? Oh, big support there!
November 16th, 2006 at 5:02 pmAs one that served YOU need to remember the 3000 American brothers and sisters of ours that have lost their lives over there.
Comment by Robert
Thousands of dead civilians in Central America.
Millions killed in Vietnam
Thousands of dead civilians in South America due to CIA financing murderous dictatorships.
Want to make comparisons?
November 16th, 2006 at 5:04 pmRobert, and please note Im referring to your government´s doings, not US citizens which I like as much as any other citizen of this world. So please...any answer like "You hate us for our freedoms" or some idiocy like that will be dismissed.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:08 pmJuan C, I like your arguement YOU BLAME THE GOVERNMENT NOT THE TROOPS. That is a novel approach on this page. Government leaders are the ones that have ordered these actions not the military themselves. You have helped me to make my point. As you point out, these things have been happening since the U.S. was founded. Both Republicans and Democrats are guilty.
As for the current war, remember that the President can not prolong this action without the aid of Congress. All those tht want to act like the Dems are the "enlightened" ones, please remember that a lorge number of them voted to send us into Iraq based on intel from the CIA, Britan Germany, and Russia. So this is not information "manufactured" by George Bush. The Democratic heir to the thrown, Hillary Clinton, even voted for it.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:25 pmHumanist, the way to restore honor and dignity to this mission is to create a STABILIZED Iraq. Do you really think that if we just pick up and leave that that country will be safe for anyone? If so, you live in a dreamworld. the country is on the verge of chaos as it is. There is a power strugle withing the different tribe as it were. The Iraqi leadership is not stepping up to the plate to take control so someone has to. It would be great if they did so we could leave.
I am doing my part to bring this to an end. I support those that are there, and when I am there (I have been there twice) I do my job.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:32 pmHumanist , welcome back - keep up the good work
November 16th, 2006 at 5:48 pmRobert:
Withdrawl is support of the troops and the Iraqi People.
America was fraudulently sent into Iraq to steal from the Iraqis. Bushco's only reasons for staying the course in Iraq is so Bushco can complete the contracts it needs to secure the oil for Bushco and to establish a permanent occupation by Halliburton/Brackstrap Bushco within the forts being built throughout Iraq.
Stay the course is just more criminal action.
Return home as soon as you can.
November 16th, 2006 at 6:22 pmBy the way, All those that say we are there for the financial gains fo Bush or Cheney, if you would please provide the evidence that you have. Anything else is just speculation.
Debate with facts.
November 16th, 2006 at 6:25 pmI think I represent everyone when I say, "No crap, Einstein!"
November 16th, 2006 at 6:51 pmRobert,
You exhibit a naivete when you speak of creating a “stabilized†situation in Iraq, just as you do when you dismiss greed as a prime motivator for this horrific action.
However, the trap that you are caught in right now is the one that says you cannot leave until things are perfect. Since perfection is unachievable then all that you do is create an excuse to be there forever, which is the goal whether you acknowledge it or not.
You will, though, say that you did not say “perfect†but you said “stableâ€, but it is one in the same. What is stable? No murders, no corruption, no human rights violations? By that criteria alone it can be justified to invade the USA right now to “stabilize†it. Are you beginning to see the trap? Do you see how that takes away the freedom of Iraqis under the guise of providing it to them?
You can never stabilize a country with an occupying force and you can never achieve peace through military force. These are not my opinions but are facts based upon logical reasoning and substantiated with historical examples and precedents. In fact, history is replete with lessons regarding these issues and it is astounding that an advanced civilized society, such as the USA claims to be, would be so willfully ignorant of them.
If you go back to Iraq in the capacity of a soldier, understand that I hope and pray that you survive and escape unharmed. But understand that I hold the same hopes and have the same prayers for the people of Iraq. And know that I do not need or want you to murder or kill any Iraqi for the sake of providing me with rights and freedoms that I already have and are not threatened in the least by the Iraqi people, but are threatened gravely by your government and the foreign policy that you are, I am hoping through ignorance, supporting.
May peace be with us all.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:13 pmKarim,
As I said, show proof of even one Bushco contract in the works. As for Halliburton, last I checked they are far from the only contractors in Iraq. They are focused on because Cheney was the CEO or whatever IN THE PAST.
Keep believing the crap that the media feeds you. If you chose to believe they are honest, fair and balanced you need to get a grip on reality. CBS, NBC, CNN, and FOX all push their own agenda. Some liberal and some conservative. They all follow the same formula, "If it bleeds, it leads" and "the more outragous, the better."
For those that have not been there, you have no REAL understanding what it is like. You parrot what the talking points are.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:18 pmHumanist,
By stable, I mean a government that can sustain a peacful society where rights of all residents are equal. The ideal situation would be for the Iraqi people to stand up, say "OK world, we can do this alone" and not just ask us to leave, but throw the insergents as well.
It is a simple equasion. If there is no one shooting at us, there is no reason to return fire. If you do not detonate a roadside bomb, the we do not have to look for who did it.
You say that you can not stabalize a country with an occupying force. What about post WWII Germany that we occupied for decades. Or Japan of the same era. One HUGE contributor to that was the people themselves. the Germans and Japaneese wanted the U.S. out of their hair as fast as possible so they did not allow outside forces to come in and use their homeland as a battlefield.
You say that I am niave to think there can be a stable Iraq. Maybe so, but I believe that the Iraqi people are capable of doing it. The power is in there hand if they would use it.
You say that greed is the motivating factor. Can you show me one instance where George Bush is profiting financially from this? I guess he bribed Russia, Germany and Britton to "falsify" intel that supported his and THE CONGRESS' decision to go to war.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:34 pmMore troops to Iraq?...
The President continues to fly the bird in the face of American soldiers. With no end in sight in Iraq, casualties climbing and no solid plan for what to do next, word is that the President will deploy an extra...
November 16th, 2006 at 7:40 pmRobert,
Your knowledge of history is wanting. A discussion on post-war Germany and Japan takes volumes to understand, I do not have the time or space to address such but I suggest that you enroll in classes and do some reading so that you can understand. Especially if you are going to use them wrongly and so flippantly in defense of an entirely incomparable situation.
Your understanding of Iraqis and resistance is elementary at best. You will stop shooting at them when they stop shooting at you. They will keep shooting at you as long as you, a FOREIGN force, are occupying their home. You will not leave until they stop shooting at you. Endless loop. Welcome to the military strategy of idiots and fools.
I wish that you were old enough to remember Vietnam. These are the EXACT same arguments that were presented to attempt to justify the continuation of that atrocity. It is chilling to hear them again in my life time.
And finally, you ask for “proof†regarding bush making money of this. You are taking a simpleton approach and I attribute it to your immaturity. But ponder this; how has a person who was such a failure in business and whose salaries while in public office, albeit above that of average middle-class, are not anywhere near the high-end of the private sector, accumulated so much wealth? Think about it ace.
Good luck to you. I hope that your mind opens to the truth before your eyes are permanently shut by the horrific reality that you are helping to bring about.
Peace.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:57 pm#67 - Robert,
November 16th, 2006 at 9:57 pmYou obviously have never visited either Japan or Germany. I was in Germany from 1984-1985 and the American presence there was overwhelming. And in Japan from 1987 to 1990, the immediate presence was not as prominent until one visited the southern islands, but it was still apparent everywhere.
I meant #65 in post #68 - sorry.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:00 pmHumanist,
My understanding of the Iraqi people is simplistic at best? I have spent 2 years of my life living and working among them. I have spent countless hours studying their language and culture as well. I do not profess to understand them perfectly, but then again, I do not understand all Americans perfectly either.
what I am calling for is for the Iraqi people to rise up against the insergency and start policeing themselves. For those tht have not been there, you may not realize that the majority of those shooting at us are not Iraqi. Many, infact, are not even Arab, they are Persian.
You, like many of the bleading heart types love to draw the comparison to Viet Nam. And that is an accuate comparison to make at this time. We need to stop letting the politicians and the media determine how we fight the war and let the "boots on the ground" make that call.
And you miss the entire point of my original post. I disagreed with someone lableing 20,000 people they do not know as "20,000 more baby killing Christian monsters". THAT is 1960's Viet Nam era rhetoric at its finest.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:09 pmWaltman,
I have actually spent a year in Japan, although I have only had stop overs in Germany.
You are right about the American presence mainly in the southern Islands and the southern point of the Main island.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:13 pmDebate with facts.
Comment by Robert
The only thing that US forces secured tightly when they arrived Baghdad was the Oil Ministry. Almost anything else was left to be looted. Any idea why?
November 16th, 2006 at 10:34 pmTHAT is 1960’s Viet Nam era rhetoric at its finest.
Comment by Robert
Are you sure? Probably you are...except that there are thousands of vietnamese still covered, drinking, breathing or touching Napalm.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:36 pm#72 - Juan C,
November 16th, 2006 at 10:37 pmThey wanted to secure the oil for food program?
I guess we all forget the rush to the musums too. That was to protect their cultural artifacts.
Why would we protect the Oil Ministry of a nation whos chief export is OIL?
November 16th, 2006 at 10:38 pmCan you show me one instance where George Bush is profiting financially from this? I guess he bribed Russia, Germany and Britton to “falsify†intel that supported his and THE CONGRESS’ decision to go to war.
Comment by Robert
What war? Shouldnt be a declaration of war, first?
November 16th, 2006 at 10:40 pmSo, Russia, Germany and Britton had the same info...why they didnt invade then? mmmm....
They wanted to secure the oil for food program?
Comment by WaltTheMan
Walt...I really dont have my sarcasmeter...so I dont know if you are joking. I would say you arent. And my answer would be: No.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:43 pm#75 - Robert,
November 16th, 2006 at 10:45 pmThat was exactly what was forgotten! The museums were looted because they were ignored by the invading force. By current estimates 3000 years of Delta history have vanished into the coffers of private collectors.
Why would we protect the Oil Ministry of a nation whos chief export is OIL?
Comment by Robert
mmm...Im guessing due to the same reason why US left the war industry/technology of Nazi Germany intact, once the WWII was over.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:45 pmWalt,
Surely you do not imply that the Iraqis stole from the musums.
Juan,
Germans chose to sit it out. Russians saw it as a "conflict of interests" as they were selling arms to Iraq at the time. But the Brits, Australians, Japanese, Algerians and 30 other nations decided that the intel was good enough to act on.
Or maybe they acted on the fact that 17 times Saddam violated UN mandates by not allowing weapons inspectors free reign to inspect Nuke, Bio, Chem plants. Maybe we should have taken his word those items were destroyed. Then we would not have found over 500 Chemical munitions in the past year.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:53 pmEach nation has to have a way to support itself. Geman manufacturing was left pretty well intact, but the Allies took the slave labor away and the Germans had to do the work again.
November 16th, 2006 at 10:55 pmBut the Brits, Australians, Japanese, Algerians and 30 other nations decided that the intel was good enough to act on.
They wanted a piece of the 2nd largest resources of cheap oil in the world. Get real. What was danger that Saddam posed to Japan or Australia? Oh, democracy is in danger, Western civilization is in danger...pure crap! It surprises me that a well-spoken guy like you still believes governments do care about its people. They dont give a f**ck.
November 16th, 2006 at 11:19 pmGeman manufacturing was left pretty well intact, but the Allies took the slave labor away and the Germans had to do the work again.
Comment by Robert
mmm...probably. The thing is that Germany had the best (threatened, scared or against Nazism...but the best) aerodynamicists in the whole world. Well, they had the best scientists at that time. Do you think they were going to leave that war machine without using?
November 16th, 2006 at 11:24 pm#79 - Juan C,
November 16th, 2006 at 11:45 pmYou would not believe how much of the industry and technology of Nazi Germany was imported into the U.S. immediately after WWII. My father was over there for about six months after the war, picking up technologies in electronics, jet aircraft and rocket engines. If Germany had the population and the resources of the United States, we would have been toast.
#80 - Robert,
Yup, the Iraqi's marauded their heritage.
If Germany had the population and the resources of the United States, we would have been toast.
Comment by WaltTheMan
I seriously doubt it, Walt. Look at Vietnam and Iraq.
But, yeah, I agree they had the best technology there. Could you possibly expand your post about your father? Im not trying to know personal details, just first hand info of what was going there. Thanks.
November 17th, 2006 at 12:02 am[...] Source: Think Progress Posted by Michael Kolanos Filed in Iraq War [...]
November 17th, 2006 at 2:44 am#85 - Juan C,
November 17th, 2006 at 6:56 amIt was a technology lift. Pops was a boy genius - went to MIT at 16 and had his PhD at 22. He also spoke German as his family used it at home as a second language. He was one of those selected to pick up on the technologies developed by the Axis powers during the late 30's and early 40's.
Jet engine - while the British had invented this jewel, the Germans managed to perfect it. Using the design from a Fokker fighter, the people at Lockheed's Skunk Works and General Electric managed to 'develop' the Starfighter in about 90 days.
Rockets - the liquid fuel technologies developed by von Braun’s team are the basis for rocketry today. The pumps, the cooling and chamber configuration are virtually unchanged from those days.
Electronics – primarily wave guide technology where the Germans, while late in microwaves, were years ahead in using this technology. They had also miniaturized the beam pentode (vacuum tube). RCA’s efforts in this final area produced molten glass.
If Germany had the population and the resources of the United States, we would have been toast.
Walt, you make a valid point on this. But the " technology lift" was not the premise for going to war. Also keep in mind the large number of German scientists the defected to the U.S. and assisted us with the war effort. Or the resistance movements throughout Europe that stood up and fought the Nazis. Those are some of the elements missing in Iraq.
Juan,
I am not ignorant enough to think that ANY government , as a body, cares for it's people. I do think that there are people in ALL governments that do care and are trying to do their best. EVERYONE needs to realize that all politicians are in their offices for their own personal gain. It does not matter what party they belong to.
November 17th, 2006 at 8:25 am#88 - Robert,
November 17th, 2006 at 9:21 amThe technology lift was an afterthought once the war was won. The reason for going into the war was that Germany had declared war against the U.S. shortly after the Pearl Harbor raid on 12/07/1941.
# 87. Walt. I appreciate your post. Thank you very much.
November 17th, 2006 at 9:48 am#61 Robert
I assumed you could read. Have a friend help you do some research. It isn't to much of a chore. I am sure many people will be glad to help you better yourself.
November 17th, 2006 at 11:46 amDoug, I actually read very well. And I am also very familiar with research. Rule number one of GOOD research is to use more than one source. Rule Two is to use TANGIBLE facts, as in something that can be proven. And the unwritten rule is to not use speculation, talking points and pure emotion in the presentation of your information.
You need to learn about the art of debate. Rule one, do not personalize it. If it is a personal attact on ones CHARACTER, Intelligence, or beliefe system, it does not belong in a debate.
You must be one of those that goes to these blog to pat backs of those who think as you do and not to have an honest exchange of differing views.
Walt, I do not dispute #89, at the same time you contridicted Juan C when he said that all the wars we have been involved in were instigated by the U.S.
November 17th, 2006 at 7:20 pmlet the cowards in the whitehouse lead the charge in downtown baghdad.
November 18th, 2006 at 9:33 amand let them be followed by all the cowards in congress the voted to send us there.
and the cowards that supported us until we started taking losses can be third in line.
November 18th, 2006 at 11:08 amAnd what about the cowards who write in Blogs with not much to say other than we should all be left to sleep with our heads in the sand and play our video games after a country we invaded whose murderous, genocidal dictator is behind bars - while the country itself disintegrates into sectarian violence with death squads, murdered, tortured men, women and children dying in droves along with our own citizenry?
Wow, douchebags - you're right - its actually way easier to come off righteous and clever - without actually DOING anything or contributing to the elevation of the discussion.
Now I know who the cowards REALLY are.
November 23rd, 2006 at 12:54 amMoran Atias Video
Thanks for the nice read, keep up the interesting posts..
March 17th, 2008 at 10:30 pmSweet 16 Party Planning
Your blog makes very interesting reading. I'm sure others will think so too I look forward to reading their comments.
March 23rd, 2008 at 8:33 pmJessie
Truer word have never been uttered, indeed. Your point is sound and excellent. Thanks for sharing.
April 3rd, 2008 at 7:09 amart history phd program
Didn't realise there was this type of information out there
April 13th, 2008 at 9:20 pmAll about Digimon Adventure Online Game. Digimon Adventure Fans Blog....
...Digimon is a small virtual pet. You can download and play an online RPG in the Digimon universe. It looks and feels like 2D graphic RPG adventure. You can train and level up your Digimon, make hundreds of quests, and travel through a huge universe a...
February 20th, 2009 at 1:53 amShag Hairstyles and Haircuts...
shag hairstyle basically gotits name from the word "shaggy" since ...once the hair is cutand layered it gives off a shaggy look. The shag hairstyle has always been apopular hairstyle, and there are plenty ofshag hairstyles to choose from...
March 23rd, 2009 at 6:53 pmArbonne skin care line overview...
Arbonne International is one of the main companies in the world when it comes to beauty and skin care. Its skin care product line is one of the best in the world that many women. The products of Arbonne skin care products are formulated in Switzerland...
April 17th, 2009 at 3:24 pm