Feingold: We Should Challenge Generals Whose ‘Assessments…Were Wrong’
Feingold: We Should Challenge Generals Whose ‘Assessments…Were Wrong’
On MSNBC today, Sen. Russ Feingold (D-WI) contended that the generals who have been in charge in Iraq, particularly Gen. John Abizaid and Gen. George Casey, should be challenged on their current recommendations to stay the course.
Feingold noted that he has traveled to Iraq for two years in a row to meet with these generals and solicit their predictions about violence in Iraq. “Their assessments of what was going to happen were wrong. They were wrong about how things were going to improve,” he said. “I think is a mistake [not to question them] and really an affront to the American people, who want us to show them that we can get out of Iraq and redeploy intelligently,” he added. Watch it:
Transcript:
O’DONNELL: Let me ask you about what General Abizaid said yesterday. He said no to troop withdrawal. So what power do the Democrats have, now that they have the majority, to force someone like General Abizaid, the man with stars on his shoulder, to change course in Iraq?
FEINGOLD: Well, this is just more of the same. I talked to General Casey and General Abizaid two years in a row when I was in Iraq and in the Middle East, and their assessments of what was going to happen were wrong. They were wrong about how things were going to improve.
So for us to simply rely on his word now, that we have to keep the same number of troops there, I think is a mistake and really an affront to the American people, who want us to show them that we can get out of Iraq and redeploy intelligently.
So what we should do is, the Democratic House and Senate, along with Republicans that will come with us, should vote to establish a reasonable time frame, I would say the middle of 2007, to redeploy the troops. That’s what the American people want.
O’DONNELL: Are you questioning the competence of our military leaders, General Casey and General Abizaid?
FEINGOLD: Absolutely not. General Casey and General Abizaid are enormously talented. But they have given us assessments of what they thought was going to happen. That doesn’t have to do with competence. That happens to do with whether they can predict things. And it’s very hard to predict things in Iraq.
The one thing we know is that the situation isn’t getting better, it isn’t going to get better, and it doesn’t make sense to further weaken our military and our national security by just staying the course, which is essentially what General Abizaid was talking about.
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No, we should execute the Christofascist terrorists one by one.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:08 pmRuss – You should get down on your knees and THANK GOD there is an American soldier and Marine standing between you and those who wish you dead. The only difference between the Islamo-wacks and Hitler – Islamo-wacks are hoping to implement a Holocaust – Hitler did….
November 16th, 2006 at 3:17 pmFLR – - Thank you for your posts of late – - YOU are a FINE example of progressivism!!! Keep up the goooood work!
November 16th, 2006 at 3:21 pmAphrodite, go back to watching your movie “A Few Good Men”.
My thoughts exactly Russ. The Generals have been repeating Bush talking points too long. It is long past due that these Generals stand up for the troops they command and give the facts as they are. Being wrong is costing too many lives.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:26 pmUm, that would be the terrorists.
> standing between you and those who wish you dead.
Any by that this rightard pile of Christian shit means the Chrostofascist terrorists in the White House.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:26 pmMA,
You should just get down on your knees. Period.
I’m sure you can find some work to do while you’re down there.
Let’s hope Feingold presses on impeachment of shrub…no one seems
November 16th, 2006 at 3:26 pmto think that’s feasible anymore. Why?
Oh, by the way, MA, Mr. Rice has been much more coherent than
‘Fried Rice’ Condoleeza of late. What’s up with her? Did she lose
her talking points while shopping for shoes at Macey’s?
Piddles,
Absolutely the generals should be challenged if what they foresee as happening never comes to be. Seems that they can’t lead effectively if they don’t have the brains to see outcomes of actions and reactions. Having generals throwing soldiers into situations that they are killed and then the generals say well that didn’t work only hurts the morale of the soldiers, the morale of the people of the US and doesn’t help Iraqis inthe least. What will 20,000 more troops do today? How will that change the situation in Iraq? I think Russ does thank the stars there are brave American soldiers standing between him and terrorists. I think also he would like those brave soldiers to have realisitic thinking generals leading them that can explain why more soldiers would be necessary and to accomplish what. Any thinking person would.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:29 pmCome you masters of war
November 16th, 2006 at 3:29 pmYou that build all the guns
You that build the death planes
You that build the big bombs
You that hide behind walls
You that hide behind desks
I just want you to know
I can see through your masks.
dylan
There wasn’t one single troop between Russ Finegold and the Christofascist that sent an Anthrax letter to Tom Daschles office. Two of his staff members almost died. But I am sure you don’t care about that do you Mighty Assh*ledite.
Poodles.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:33 pmChallenge all the way to the courts of law! Go for it!
November 16th, 2006 at 3:34 pmtheswan: love dylan’s war lyrics…amazing how little changes when we fail to “learn the lesson” the first time. Those lyrics could still be written today…how far have we come???
November 16th, 2006 at 3:35 pmFeingold is absolutely correct about this. What sort of commander in chief chronically defers to the judgments of his “commanders on the ground†as this president has? He seems to have it backwards. This is the same president who asserted that we had “darn good intelligence†going into this fiasco. A true commander in chief would understand that generals who fail should be replaced.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:40 pmGuess Aphrodite-Troll awakened from his long slumber….the thread becomes filled with detritus when he does….hahaha!
November 16th, 2006 at 3:40 pmButt, inquiring minds want to know….isn’t your real moniker: Might Assrodite?
November 16th, 2006 at 3:41 pmO’Donnell’s roundhouse of implying that Feingold might be questioning the General’s competence is a just a classic Rovian style frame-spin.
Listen to what Feingold said, O’Donnell, not what you want to imply he said. Is it any damn wonder why I NEVER watch the corporate media anymore. They are absolutely, positively and totally incompetent.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:44 pmThis is too funny. First the Dems bitch because the Bush administration isn’t listening to the generals on the ground in Iraq, and now they are questioning them because it doesn’t fit their politics. LOL!
November 16th, 2006 at 3:45 pmchallenge them and, if the lie under oath, bring them to justice.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:50 pmnow they are questioning them because it doesn’t fit their politics. LOL!
Comment by Tracy
No they should be questioned because what they say will happen doesn’t fit the reality on the ground. Reality vs. Politics. And I don’t thing Russ Feingold has moved on this subject. He has been for asking the tough questions from day one. I know you are so used to the goose-steppers that it may be weird to realize that sometimes in the Democratic Party people have different ideas.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:51 pmAbazaid and Casey speculated two years ago and were proven, by circumstances, to be dead wrong. Why believe them now?? Feingold is right on target this time.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:51 pmTracy,
What Mr. Feingold is calling for, and rightly so, is accountability. It is you who is “bitching”.
Peace.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:51 pmNo sitting General can say no to the Bush administration because they will be retired , maligned, marginalized , or accused of some impropriety worthy of court martial. That’s why the military has to go through retired Officers like Murtha who have more freedom to speak for them.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:54 pm“Accountability” only becomes “bitching” when it’s tainted by politics…righto! Semantics, dahlings…semantics. You say tomato and I say to-matt-o…..These generals have not been accurate in their assessment of the situation so why would anyone with a right mind believe that they have the ability, expertise, and lack of politics to tell the truth now? Once a liar, always a liar!
November 16th, 2006 at 3:55 pmWay to go Russ. These generals have been sucking up to rumfeld and leaving their brave men and woman out to dodge bullets. Get after their asses and get them moving, no more stay the course!!!
November 16th, 2006 at 3:56 pmIt’s political and personal excommuncation and they know the drill very, very well. Yes men….all the way if they want to retire nicely, that is. It’s clear that many general and “feet on the ground” aren’t compromised by their retirement benefits to begin telling the truth of what’s really going on. Once people realize that W is indeed a “lame duck”, the informers will fly out of the woodwork.
November 16th, 2006 at 3:57 pmKudos to Feingold for having the cajones to stand up to these “yes men”….applause….applause….and sorry you’ve decided not to run for the Presidency. You’ve been one honest, solid, good man willing to speak up, without reservation, for what you believe to be Truth. America applauds you!
November 16th, 2006 at 3:58 pmRetirement first, country second. Draft Feingold for President…
November 16th, 2006 at 4:07 pm“Were Wrong”. What a diplomatic way to say “lied”.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:10 pmMy take on what Gen. John Abizaid testified to yesterday was that no more troops are needed in Iraq because the military doesn’t have more troops to send. And that is because Bush won’t reinstate the draft. Lacking enough troops means the Abizaid can not predict a good outcome for Iraq.
So the militiary is pretty much pissin in the wind because the commander in chief doesn’t have the balls to reinstate the draft and hurt the republican’s politically. And therefore Bush hopes to leave his two messed up wars to the next president to clean up. They are likely praying that a Dem win the presidency so they can blaim everything on him or her.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:12 pmTracy and Mighty you are truly sad sacks of excrement. There was a Civil War in our history where the Generals were put to pasture if the results didn’t match up with expectations. I don’t blame the Generals for this mess but for us to just sit and hear the same song for 2 years is complete bullshit. “Turning the Corner” is not an assessment, it’s buying for time. Feingold is asking the tough questions that are needed in this conflict. Your party has been meekly listening to the chief bullshitter while no personal sacrifice is asked.
You are sad excuses for humans.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:14 pmI agree,
We shouldn’t listen to the generals on the ground. Oh wait, aren’t you the people that have been saying for the last 2 years that we need to listen and do what the generals on the ground say? You guys flip and flop in the wind. My guess is you have an answer (you want to leave Iraq regardless of the situation or how it will effect us and the Iraqi people) and are just trying to find a way to it. Screw them army people!!! As Kerry says, you only end up in the armed forces if you are dumb and don’t try hard in school.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:17 pmroger_roger,
If only morons were allowed in the military then you would be performing KP duty somewhere at this very moment.
What Mr. Feingold is saying is that the war is wrong and the people who have been painting rosy pictures and making asinine assertions have been proven wrong, so why are you listening to them?
Your generalizations and obtuse “observations” betray only your ignorance and cowardice. Do not try to blame Mr. Feingold, or others for that matter, for your lack of credibility and intelligence.
Peace.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:30 pmFeingold for Senate Majority Leader!!
November 16th, 2006 at 4:36 pmRun Russ Run!
Already, our very own Mighty Strawman distorts Mr. Feingold’s criticism of the generals’ performance of their duties in assessment regarding Iraq, trying to spin it as a criticism of the “American soldier and Marine”.
Are the generals directly putting their lives on the line in Iraq? Or are they putting their careers in line with the political power?
November 16th, 2006 at 4:41 pmFeingold is right. Military leaders should be held accountable for their decisions in Iraq because many of them allowed the administration (Rumsfeld) to put words in their mouths that we not theirs and were not true.
These military leaders gave up a little personal security then for no security now. If they were derelict in their duty to provide the best possible assessment in Iraq they must be held accountable.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:44 pmGenerals serve at the pleasure of the President. Past presidents have removed generals from their commands if their assessments, leadership, or public presentation was not up to par.
Generals are not GODS! They should be subject to accountability and criticism.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:45 pmThank you for your posts of late – - YOU are a FINE example of progressivism!!! Keep up the goooood work!
Comment by mighty aphrodite
mmm…Im confused. Why, for you, it is OK to blast whacko Islamofascists but you get offended by comments on blasting Christofascist terrorists? Arent those groups full of evil people no matter which God they pray to? Perhaps because you are one of the latter and that comment stings you?
I forgot. You have never made sense at all, just spreading your fear-propaganda who nobody here seems to care.
What a sick f*ck God must be to have you as a follower.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:45 pmRoger,
Sadly what Kerry said is really to the point, sometimes the truth hurts. The military will take dumb people, good colleges wont (unless you’re rich). And yes the military does have some very smart people who’s parents just couldn’t afford college. But when something is all volunteer, and they keep lowering standards to allow almost anyone in, what do you have?
Don’t believe me about lowering standards? Just google it..
http://www.google.com/search?q=military+lowering+standards
And don’t even bring up “flip flopping”.. You support the most flip-floppy administration EVER!
Bush was against 9/11 investigations, before he was for them. Isn’t that what got us here in the first place? Why would he be against them? Why???? Because facts generally have a liberal bias.
Bush was against homeland security, before he was for it. And he’s still not for it as we have ports and borders WIDE OPEN. But that’s all part of the plan, leave them open, allow another attack on our soil, them blame the Democrats??? Right????
November 16th, 2006 at 4:47 pmOff topic, but I would like to know, just because some are saying…do you General Abizaid are working with our enemies?
November 16th, 2006 at 4:48 pmCome on, Beck, ask that question to him too.
JustSomeDude,
November 16th, 2006 at 4:54 pmAnother point that I find interesting is how the Armed Forces target their recruiting adevertisements. Its always some white corn fed boy in a unifrom standing in front of his dad on a tractor or a black urban kid talking about how it will help him with college. I would love to see a commercial outside a mansion with an affluent dad and mom talking with their son about choosing between the Army or Harvard. Never happen but it would be a good SNL spoof.
The truth is that during the time of the draft and lottery, college attendance was a legitimate “deferrment” from active duty….god knows, Bush and Cheney know all about that! What Kerry said was absolutely accurate if the draft is again reinstituted…..simply put: if you are simply a high school graduate, you’ll be first drafted….fact! Kerry may or may not be presidential material, but what he said was quite accurate, regardless of whether we choose to admit it or not. AND….further….those who cannot find jobs in corporate america upon graduation from high school and/or college, often enlist in the military and put in their 20 years JUST to have benefits, find themselves and lead a productive life….not to mention retiring on our “dime” after they do their twenty….not a bad deal if you make it out alive, that is!
November 16th, 2006 at 4:55 pmRoger_Roger….since when has your party, the GOP, grown a heart? Since when did you become concerned about the Iraqi people?? If you had, we’d never have gone blasting in there…..collateral damage is what I call murder.
November 16th, 2006 at 4:58 pmChallenge the generals? Sure, challenge the credibility of everyone who’s been steadfastly wrong about the Iraq war (like roger-roger) for years.
That includes the politicians and the pundits and your stupid Republican relatives. Tell ‘em to shut their ignorant holes and listen for a change.
They’ve been worse than useless up to now, and failure has consequences.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:01 pm.
Amazing. The conservatives on this board seem to hold the position that it is somehow wrong for our elected representatives to hold members of the military accountable for their various reports to the American people. And, even stranger, these cons think THEY’RE the patriots. The Founders must be spinning in their graves.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:05 pmNo, we are not. That is your retarded leader George W Bush. Which of course he doesn’t do. The current generals on the ground are the sock puppets of the administration that won’t go against what King George wants.
Yesterday General Abzaid stated in front of COngress that general Shinseki was right about the troop levels that would be needed.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:09 pmThat is not what Kerry said idiot. He said Bush was a dumb phouc that should have studied in school.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:12 pmHooray for Russ Feingold! It’s about time someone stood up and told these paper generals where to shove it. General like Abizaid are so afraid to stand up and tell the truth, you couldn’t get it out of them if you tortured them. They let an old worn out broken down man scare them into submission, yes I mean Rummy. Any general worth his star shouldn’t have put up with Rumsfelds bull_hit for one minute. It’s not like they don’t have enough time in to retire if they get fired for being men. Retired general H. Norman Swartzkaft wouldn’t have backed down from that old fart. I am a former soldier, and I stood up to high ranking officers when I knew I was right. I once refused to obey a direct order because the order was stupid and didn’t make any military sense.
I was given an order to remove Korean citizens from our camp site which we set up without the owners permission. Under the status of forces agreeement which the United States signed after the Korean war I had no right to remove the Korean and the Major who ordered me to do it knew it. I would have probably be charged with assault and court-martial had I followed his order. After I refused, he didn’t push the issued with his superiors because he knew the would have said he was wrong to give the order. At that time I was an enlisted man well below this major in rank, but I knew right from wrong.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:19 pmI see Mighty Hermaphrodite is still spewing Repuke hate speech in here. Go back to your trailer park and marry one of your siblings, you moron.
Russ Feingold is one of a very few people on the Hill that is doing his job. Most of the Dems and all of the Repukes are whores.
I hope Feingold kicks some ass in January.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:28 pmOne more time because I think this is important: to be against our elected representatives asking the military hard questions is profoundly unamerican, period.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:36 pm“Russ – You should get down on your knees and THANK GOD there is an American soldier and Marine standing between you and those who wish you dead.”….. He’s BEEN to Iraq. He’s TALKED to the Generals in question. Stop treating one of the small handful of professionals in the senate like he’s you, sitting in your house in front of your lap top spouting off ignorant reactionary crap-ola.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:36 pmI love Russ Feingold. I was very sad when he announced a few days ago that he would not be running for President in 08. What a shame. The good part is that his reason for not running is that he feels he can do a lot more in the Senate now that the Dems have the majority. He is a true progressive, and if we had 50 more Senators like him we would be in a lot better place right now. You know, he was the only one to vote against the Patriot Act in the Senate. My Hero.
http://www.getsomejosh.com
November 16th, 2006 at 5:37 pmDemanding accountability is now called complaining.
November 16th, 2006 at 5:41 pmThe generals are under political pressure to say what the boss want them to say – they grapple with what effect that has on their troops. What is Gen. A to say in public – that the soldiers are dying for Bush’s folly? What would that do to morale? How can he do that when it would be against the military code of obeying the C-in-C? I see him in an extremely difficult position, damned if he does and damned if he doesn’t. He was a huge disappointment yesterday, but I think I see his difficulty – and it is George Bush. Abizaid will have to figure his way himself.
Feingold is right – challenge their judgment and find out why they say what they do. If their military judgment has been co-opted, then they should be held to account.
Who is holding Bush to account?
Accountabilty. That’s what is missing, and has lead to lethal incompetence in conducting this war. Cobra II and Fiasco were both on the best seller list, so Americans know that Bush and Rumsfeld had a flawed plan, and no system in place to receive feedback and adjust accordingly. Iraqi looters were dumping out radioactive material to steal the barrels. Bush and the GOP posted unvetted captured Iraqi documents containing nuclear weapons secrets on the Internet. And no heads rolled!!!
November 16th, 2006 at 5:49 pmApart from the incompetence in waging this war, there has always been one big strategic flaw….”Shiite Majority” Iran is the winner. We have taken the best military in the world and showed everyone what it Can Not Do.
Feingold seems to be switched on and very truthfull should be leader
MORE news
FORT CAMPBELL, Ky. – A soldier was sentenced Thursday to 90 years in prison with the possibility of parole for conspiring to rape a 14-year-old Iraqi girl and kill her and her family.
AT LAST AN TERRIBLE INJUSTICE MET WITH SEVERE CONSEQUENCES
November 16th, 2006 at 6:00 pm#9 – “There wasn’t one single troop between Russ Finegold and the Christofascist that sent an Anthrax letter to Tom Daschles office….”
Comment by Spudege Boy
*******Dear Sponge Cake – Soooo predictable and soooo wrong. Let me correct you – again. I am delighted the terror nut job who claims to have sent the anthrax letters is in custody. (I only hope he doesn’t prove to be a 5150 – like that Karr character). I hope investigators find evidence to back up the claim.
But thank you for trying to change the subject – which wasn’t anthrax but Russ and his many challenges…..
November 16th, 2006 at 6:03 pm#6 – “Why, for you, it is OK to blast whacko Islamofascists but you get offended by comments on blasting Christofascist terrorists?”
Comment by JuanC.
******Becaue, Dear Juan, Christians haven’t been burning anybody at the stake for heresy or blasphemy – lately. I realize it’s difficult to mingle your knowledge of history with today….but try….
November 16th, 2006 at 6:22 pmWrong stuper phouc. I am not talking about the fake Anthrax letters sent by the Malkin fan boy. I am talking about the real Anthrax that was sent after the 9/11 attacks that the perp was never found. Because he is one of you whackos.
You tried to change the subject , so I used your tactic and change it again.
DipshEt.
It is hard for you to correct someone when everything that comes out of your pie hole is wrong.
Besides, why would the terrorists attack Russ. He is a Democrat and according to you assw*pes the terrorists love Democrats.
You can’t have it both ways Mighty Assh*ledite.
November 16th, 2006 at 6:34 pmMighty Hag is projecting again.
November 16th, 2006 at 6:37 pmFeingold rocks.
November 16th, 2006 at 6:53 pmMighty A, two simple questions: do you agree that our elected representatives have the right and the constitutional mandate to ask the military tough questions? And, in our system, does the military answer to civil government or is it the other way around?
November 16th, 2006 at 6:55 pm#18
“No they should be questioned because what they say will happen doesn’t fit the reality on the ground.”
Feingold wants to hear that we should pull out of Iraq immediately and redeploy by a given date. The generals are saying that would be a mistake to give a timetable and anyone who thinks otherwise is wrong. You would trust a congressman about how to run the military in Iraq over the generals? You go right ahead. We did the samething in Vietnam and we lost a very winable war.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:02 pm#22
Explain why you think Feingold’s suggestions of a redeployment under a given time frame would be anymore “right” than the generals who disagree with him?
November 16th, 2006 at 7:04 pmTracy, I get the feeling that democracy is a little to scary for you. Would you rather the military were in charge? I hate to break it to you, but that’s not what George Washington had in mind.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:06 pmCons, you don’t seem to realize that you’re all on very shaky ground here. There isn’t one signer of our constitution who would agree with the proposition that it is somehow wrong for our elected representatives to demand truthful testimony from our military. I’m not sure just what values you think you’re defending, but they aren’t American values.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:10 pm#45
Kerry’s disdain for the military hasn’t changed since Vietnam. He is a jerk.
“He said Bush was a dumb phouc that should have studied in school.”
How can he say that considering his grades in college weren’t any better that Bush’s? LOL! He is some info that you obviously don’t know.
http://www.boston.com/news/local/articles/2005/06/07/yale_grades_portray_kerry_as_a_lackluster_student/
November 16th, 2006 at 7:11 pm#66
When it comes to military decisions that is exactly what Washington had in mind.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:14 pmIs Mighty Buttrodite in here defecating on this thread again?? If so, I’m outta here! I don’t dialogue with pure, unadulterated idiots.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:17 pmTracy: “When it comes to military decisions that is exactly what Washington had in mind.”
Tracy, you must have been napping in history class. The Founders were clear on this: in our system, the military answers to civilian government. The military takes an oath to preserve the system, not any particular leader. When civilian leadership says jump, the military is supposed to say “how high.” Now that you have demonstrated a profound ignorance of our system, I understand some of your other statements. You just don’t know any better.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:20 pmI loves me some Feingold…
November 16th, 2006 at 7:30 pmTracy, since you demonstrate such staggering ignorance about our constitutional system, I’m going to guess that you were home schooled by conservative christians. Am I correct?
November 16th, 2006 at 7:30 pm#71
I was referring to tatical and strategic decisions on the ground not policy questions that ARE made by the civilian government. Remember the civilians tried to make tatical and strategic decisions in Vietnam and it was a disaster. I hope that clears it up for you.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:56 pm#63 – “Mighty A, two simple questions:” Comment by Bluedog49
******I expected nothing more
“do you agree that our elected representatives have the right and the constitutional mandate to ask the military tough questions? And, in our system, does the military answer to civil government or is it the other way around?”
******Our elected representatives not only have the “right” to question military leaders – they have an obligation to do so. Yes, the military answers to civilian government – which is why folks who have never served in the military may be President with the accompanying title “Commander in Chief”.
Questioning is one thing – grandstanding is another , I consider it grandstanding to criticize outcomes which cannot be predicted beyond informed assumptions. And as we’ve seen in the last 20+ years, our intelligence apparatus has not been up to speed thanks to (the mercifully dead) Frank Church and the unfortunately alive, Jimmy Carter.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:57 pmMighty A, I tried in good faith to engage you in a basic argument about the way you started this board. I’ve asked a couple of ways. You have ignored the question. It’s a basic constitutional question. The only thing I can gather from this is that you are indeed pure bullshit.
November 16th, 2006 at 7:57 pmOK, let me try again. An elected representative thinks that possibly the military has not been honest about some of its reports on progress or lack thereof in Iraq. The American people want to know the truth. On what planet is this called “grandstanding.” Isn’t this what our elected representatives are supposed to do?
November 16th, 2006 at 8:00 pmTracy: “Remember the civilians tried to make tatical and strategic decisions in Vietnam and it was a disaster. I hope that clears it up for you.”
You have no idea what you’re talking about. What strategic decision in fighting the war in Viet Nam was made by civilians? Can you name one?
November 16th, 2006 at 8:02 pmDo you have any clue what the phouc redeploy means? You wouldn’t redeploy if you have already withdrawn. The two words are not synonymous and do not mean the same thing.
November 16th, 2006 at 8:05 pmWho cares about John Kerry’s grades? He is not president and didn’t start an illegal war.
That is like comparing my grades and Bush’s grades. No relevance in the real world. I am not president and didn’t get the US into an illegal war.
Here is something that you probably don’t know. John Kerry and George W Bush are cousins. They were both part of the same secret society called Skull and Bones.
Not sure what anyof this has to do with the fact that JOHN KERRY DID NOT CALL THE TROOPS STUPID.
You snipped one sentence out of my post to try and make a stupid point. But, it is just that, a stupid point.
November 16th, 2006 at 8:08 pmIs Mighty Aphrodite actually Anne Coulter? I am confused… I apologize in advance if that is a stupid question.
November 16th, 2006 at 8:10 pmBluedog49,
It’s pretty tough trying to get a simple point across to that retard ain’t it?
November 16th, 2006 at 8:10 pmDear Juan, Christians haven’t been burning anybody at the stake for heresy or blasphemy – lately.
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Ha ha ha! Oh, OK, then!
November 16th, 2006 at 11:01 pmBecaue, Dear Juan, Christians haven’t been burning anybody at the stake for heresy or blasphemy – lately. I realize it’s difficult to mingle your knowledge of history with today….but try….
Comment by mighty aphrodite
I will comment some more because this reasoning is priceless. What was the religion of Timothy McVeigh? Or the religion of the guy who sent Anthrax via-mail? What is the religion of the a-hole who thinks democracy means blowing up 600,000 innocent people, stupid?
Well, at least, they are not beheading anybody…that would be barbaric…but its nice to rape girls and burn them, right?
November 16th, 2006 at 11:07 pmDear Juan – With your impressive information gathering skills would you please be so kind as to estimate:
a.) The number of Christian terrorists killing and maiming non-Christians and atheists.
b.) The number of Islamic terrorists killing non-Muslims and atheists.
(Feel free to estimate to the best of your ability in hundreds or thousands.)
Buenos noches!!
November 16th, 2006 at 11:32 pmWith your impressive information gathering skills would you please be so kind as to estimate:
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Thank you very mucho… heh!
a.) The number of Christian terrorists killing and maiming non-Christians and atheists.
Have you read the little passage of history called The Conquer of America? (The continent…due to Americo Vespusio…I think you know that). Do you possibly know how many indians died due to the sword and the holy cross? I recommend you a book: “The open veins of Latin America” of Eduardo Galeano. Not hundreds, MA, not thousands…yeah, millions. Oh, but not lately so I guess it doesnt matter anymore. Well, lately, yeah. Indians still starved to death here in Latin America…but, there is nothing to worry about: priests tell them that the good ol man upstairs will take care of them.
b.) The number of Islamic terrorists killing non-Muslims and atheists.
Probably millions, too. So? Do I have to take a side? Do you think we, Progs, are apologists of groups that kill people? Probably in your little hating bubble.
Buenos noches!!
November 16th, 2006 at 11:52 pmBuenas noches para ti también. Aunque no lo creas, deseo que estés muy bien.
For ME, the TERRORISTS on BOTH SIDES of the ISRAELI WALL are UNACCEPTABLE, and should be STOPPED!!
I agree…although I rather blame on zionists first and Palestinians later. After Palestinians recover their land, their drinkable water, their fishing water, their sacred sites, etc. then I will be blaming them for whatever agression.
Where they make you PERSONALLY RESPONSIBLE for THEIR FAILURES!!
I try to stay away from US internal politics discussions, I really dont know much…but I get the picture.
The more you hear MORAL VALUES from a guy the more you can suspect he has a child prostitution network going on, which is the whole history of religion: hypocresy. The more you hear LAW HAVE TO BE RESPECTED, the more you know that guy is as dirty as a porn-addict hard drive. This is a rule here in Latin America. Now, about MA, I just feel pity for a person so afraid of “others”. My opinion is that she has never has the chance to sit and talk (if thats possible for her) with a Muslim guy , therefore, she gets her info from Top-Gun-like movies.
November 17th, 2006 at 12:17 amWhitey Hermaphrodite, the only reason anyone wants any of us dead is because of people like you. You could take that one of several ways, and all woudl be valid.
November 17th, 2006 at 2:21 amprogressivism – the political orientation of those who favor progress toward better conditions in government and society
November 17th, 2006 at 3:05 am# 65. Because there is no good outcome here. Period. Anyone with a half functioning frontal lobe can see that. We armed saddam so he could do what we wish we could do now to pacify iraq.
I don’t pretend that Us soldiers leaving will improve the situation in Iraq.
No one else should either.
Our boys bodies ARE definitely blocking bullets that the iraqis would normally be using to take each other out.
Why am I unpatriotic for suggesting that it woudl be better off if Saddam and his Shia enemies were completly occupied killing each other instead of our boys?
We need to start examining the possibility that there IS no outcome beneficial to the united states, no matter how long we stay. I know ROger and Hermaphrodite are just itching to install a nice democratic Islamic Theocracy in Iraq where everyone votes and everyone votes to hate jews and americans and to subsidizie Hamas and Hezbollah with thier tax dollars
. But come on guys. How many of our soliders have to die before you realize democratically turning over the keys to Iraq to the Islammic Caliphate isnt a good idea?
I know you guys looove religious nuts, peas in pod and all, but come on, give our boys a break.
Poppa Bush was onto something when he explained why he didnt march on Baghdad.
Iraq as we know it IS in its death throes, and us staying is only delaying the inevitable.
But staying is only slowing the firestorm that will erupt eventually in ANY case. So we’ve got a choice.. leave now with less american dead and less
treasure lost, or leave later and have the exact same result once we’re gone.
No no wait.. USA USA USA! Usa can do anything… I mean, this whole “getting rid of a guy we used to give weapons to in order to kill the same groups we now liberated” COULDNT POSSIBLY just have been a really, really bad idea. I mean, george bush, come up with a course of action that is destined for failure?”
Please explain, in some DETAIL, what possible REALISTIC positive scenarios could come of us staying? Are you saying if we kill and bomb more things are going to calm down?
Please explain how we are going to temper Shia Islams power grab and keep the oil producing sectors of Iraq from funding Iran’s ambitions?
How are we going to purge the Iranian influenced/funded militias from the people we are training to take over? How are we going to keep those militias from using their DEMOCRATICALLY ELECTED political clout to get rid of any leaders that threaten their miltias?
Can you please name me some group of people in Iraq with a real chance to run Iraq in some way that is beneficial to USa interests?
Simply put, there are too many irreconcilable differences in Iraq for their to be any real chance at peace and democracy in that region. Period. This is reality folks. Saddam’s brutality was the only thing that kept these guys from tearing each other apart and kept Iraq intact. Honestly, the only way we could get this thing under wraps now, in a way that would benefit america, would be turn against the shias, crack down on them brutally, and make a deal with nearby Sunni nations to put a secular strongman back in control. Of course, the US could never sit on the world stage and engage in the type of brutality it would take to get Iraq back in order, soooo thats not really a realistic option, even if it was logistically feasible, which I may not be with our current overextended military.
Oh, and please explain why your buddies and companions in braindeath, RUmmy and Reagan, thought it prudent to arm Hussien? What were they afraid of? Are the same concerns that led them to arm hussien any less valid now? Inquiring minds want to know…
November 17th, 2006 at 3:07 am#104
November 17th, 2006 at 3:09 amCongrats on that one! Touche!
Let me progress that wisdom:
If we give them Mighty Assrodite they may stop fighting our
innocent soldiers?
Seriously guys.. we have to reframe the terms of the debate… or we are never going to win this war of ideas…
We ALL need to chant, over and over again, in ANY and EVERY public forum available:
RUMSFELD SHOOK SADDAMS HAND AND SOLD HIM GAS.
REAGAN GAVE HUSSIEN WEAPONS.
RUMSFELD SHOOK SADDAMS HAND AND SOLD HIM GAS.
REAGAN GAVE HUSSIEN WEAPONS.
We have to say it over and over and over again, because well, for some reason our politicians are too afraid to say it themselves.
Bush peddles falsity as absolute truth. When you are attacking someone who peddles absolute truth, you have to fight that false truth with….
REALITY
REALITY
REALITY…,
listen.. reality confuses people who believe absolute truth. The best way to fight bush is to confuse people who beleive him.
like this…
Bush: SADDAM BAD. WE MUST FIGHT AGAINST BAD SADDAM.
Bush Supporter: AH YES. SADDAM BAD. IT NICE WHEN BAD MAN DEAD.
US (Smarter people): REAGAN GAVE SADDAM WEAPONS. REAGAN GAVE SADDAM WEAPONS.
Bush Supporter. SADDAM BAD… BUT… WAIT…. THEN WHY REAGAN CHRIST
GIVE SADDAM WEAPONS??… REAGAN IS GOOD…REAGAN IS THE SON OF JESUS… IF SADDAM BAD THEN WHY REAGAN GIVE SADDAM WEAPONS????
UHHH UHHHH!!
guys, please.. im serious.. anyone of you reading this who even partially beleives what I say, we need to start spreading the word at every available opportunity that “meanie old saddam used to be our buddy.”
Cindy Sheehan said she was talking to Senator Kay Bailey Hutch… she said that the Senator said… “we needed to get rid of Saddam because he used WMD on his own people.” Cindy said she then asked the Senator 3 TIMES “who gave him those weapons senator”?” She wouldnt answer.
CAN YOU IMAGINE A MOMENT LIKE THAT IN FRONT OF TELEVISION CAMERAS? It would begin to totally reshape the debate about iraq, and knock Bush into an even deeper tailspin.
Until people are confused and start asking diffiCult questions they will never escape from this poisonous cloud of falsity being peddled as absolute truth by the scum merchants that have hijacked this great country.
Guys, knowledge is the most potent and most powerful weapon we have against these guys. Its time to start spreading this Weapon of Mass Congition at any and every opportunity.
November 17th, 2006 at 3:31 amSorry John, but I don’t have time to pursue the truth nor am I interested in anything that sounds like “critical thinking.” I’d rather be spoon fed my reality. At the moment I’m busy watching Emmitt Smith win Dancin’ with the Stars and then I’ll be busy watching Friends and then I’ll be busy watching WWF Smackdown and then I’ll be busy watching another show after I do some channel surfing…and then I’ll take my anti-depressants and then I’ll go work in my meaningless job in my cubical watching the clock, waiting for my shows to come on again and give my otherwise devoid of meaning life meaning…any questions?
November 17th, 2006 at 6:54 amI realize Mr. Feingold is a veteran, but does that make him more astute than our nation’s generals in planning/executing a war? Anyone? And why is it that people keep saying that the generals are “repeating Bush’s talking points” but never consider that, perhaps, the opposite is true? Hello …… ?
November 17th, 2006 at 8:24 amDid ol Russ vote for the war or against it?
November 17th, 2006 at 8:25 amGiacomo, it seems the generals have been either incompetant from the beginning, along with all of congress and the brownhouse, or they were all purposeful liars.
Just simply look at what history has taught.
November 17th, 2006 at 8:29 amInteresting move by Russ. Choosing any member of the military as a target for criticism requires a lot of brass, and a great degree of accuracy.
And regardless of the outcome, it is not ever a profitable political move. It costs points to weigh this kind of accusation, and gives you nothing.
Thanks for the sacrifice Russ… shame there aren’t more people willing to spend their credbility the way you have in improving our government.
November 17th, 2006 at 10:14 am#106. John Deek. Excellent post. By far the best effort to explain a good reason for withdrawl sooner rather than later. The assumption you are making however, is that we have a choice. Islamic fundamentalism has declared war on us. The world has changed so that is a real threat to us. It would be similar to telling FDR after Pearl Harbor that we can’t win and it would be better to cut our losses. I’m sure you will discount it, but did you see Glenn Becks reporting on the hatred coming from Iran’s president and fundamentalists in the Middle East. If we could withdrawl every U.S. soldier, you are right, they would not be dying in Iraq. But, that doesn’t mean that war would end or that we would be better off.
November 17th, 2006 at 10:32 am#81
http://www.policyreview.org/jun01/cooper.html
“Vietnam is remembered as a case of air power being undermined by civilian control of air operations, with images of President Johnson and Secretary of Defense McNamara on their knees in the Oval Office selecting targets.”
My brother, a major in the USAF, suggested I read this book: H. R. McMaster’s “Dereliction of Duty: Johnson, McNamara, the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Lies that Led to Vietnam.” He said this book clearly shows how civilian involvement in the day-to-day military operations and this BS notion of “limited war” is what prolongs conflicts.
BTW Rumsfeld and McNamara both made the same mistakes, i.e. inserting themselves into almost every military decision especially troop levels.
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A58318-2005Jan8.html
November 17th, 2006 at 10:57 amAs long as the Pentagon and the military and the generals are under the control of the Bush, their words are dusted off versions of whatever the Bush says. Generals don’t get to be generals by bucking their commanding officers. They do what they’re told. Fire the Bush. Watch the smoke and mirrors lift.
November 17th, 2006 at 11:08 am#82
Redeploy to foward bases outside of Iraq like in Kuwait. Do you pay attention to what the Dems like Muratha have been suggesting for a while now? I am really getting tired of having to annunciate and constantly in this blog (Bluedog49 is the latest example).
November 17th, 2006 at 11:14 am#83
What do you think Kerry’s point was? Maybe he’s just too damn smart and the dumb troops just “didn’t get his joke”.
November 17th, 2006 at 11:16 amVery nice posts and points John Deek. I agree completely.
November 17th, 2006 at 11:19 amThe only difference between the Islamo-wacks and Hitler – Islamo-wacks are hoping to implement a Holocaust – Hitler did….
Comment by mighty aphrodite
Aren’t you forgetting about the Christo-wacks?
November 17th, 2006 at 11:29 amHumanist,
I nominate you for President!!!!!!!!
November 17th, 2006 at 11:34 am#80
I agreed with you on this and if at the end of the day if it’s still not what Feingold (who hasn’t been in Iraq enough to know the situation BTW) wants to hear…then what? Possibly an investigational Iraqi assessment team to put those generals in their place? BTW it might just be that Feingold is the one who is “grandstanding”.
November 17th, 2006 at 12:01 pm#106
Pulling out would definately make it worse though. I think as you suggested….
“Why am I unpatriotic for suggesting that it woudl be better off if Saddam and his Shia enemies were completly occupied killing each other instead of our boys?”
A full blown civil war might not be such a bad thing now in an of itself, however considering Iran right next door would undoubtedly stick it’s nose in the situation and be on the side of the Shiites, American forces would need to still be there to prevent it. You are right, there is probably not a good solution right now and your idea of installing another brutal dictator in Iraq might be the only real, although not appealing, solution.
“Oh, and please explain why your buddies and companions in braindeath, RUmmy and Reagan, thought it prudent to arm Hussien?”
They didn’t make Saddam’s army what it was in the 1980s, The Soviets were responsible for supplying their guns, helicopters, and tanks. This myth the the U.S. is the one who armed Saddam in the 1980s is just that.
One last point. How did Turkey become a moderate Islamic democracy but no other country in the region can seem to duplicate? Just asking the question.
November 17th, 2006 at 12:19 pm#120. not impressed with the U.S. I’m curious; are you impressed with the rest of the world. The United Nations only seems to be capable of issuing paper thin resolutions that noone respects. And yes, they are quite capable of sending peacekeepers to poverty stricken areas to rape the women and girls (don’t forget lining their pockets with oil-for-food money). Otherwise, what purpose do they serve? And Europe, abdicating leadership by not funding there own defense to pursue social programs that have not shown demonstrable more positive impact on there societies than we have in the U.S. They have put themselves into a situation in which all they can really do is complain. I’m sure you would be more impressed if the U.S. would just join Europe in its slumber and wait for our culture to be supplanted by the peaceful, tolerate, freedom loving Islamic fundamentalists. Besides we have it coming. I may not be impressed with the U.S. in every aspect. But are we better than the other offerings: yes.
November 17th, 2006 at 12:54 pmMA, it is also grandstanding to DECLARE “outcomes which cannot be predicted beyond informed assumptions” as guaranteed, such as “cakewalk” and “mission accomplished”.
November 17th, 2006 at 12:58 pmI think someone leaned on Feingold not to run for president. We have to find some way to protect our elected officials from the Bush Crime Family and their branch of the CIA.
Bush’s strategy to get out of the impeachment that is coming for his violation of many US, International and Nurenburg laws is to shift the blame to the military who were under the command of the COMMANDER IN CHIEF.
I think often of Truman’s THE BUCK STOPS HERE sign on his desk.
There has also been talk of a military coup or counter coup since bush stole our Presidency TWICE and this is a pre-emptive strike – James Baker and the rumsfeld replacement all are criminals who had a hand in bush senior’s Iran-Contra treason and are known for lying about war.
November 17th, 2006 at 2:49 pmI JUST CAME BACK FROM IRAQ AND..I’M FROM THE ALABAMA NATIONAL GUARD AND WE JUST CAME BACK FROM IRAQ LAST FRIDAY AND THE SITUATION IS THERE IS TURNING PRETTY BAD…WE DO NOT CONTROL IRAQ ANY LONGER, THE GUERRILLA DOES..!!! THEY ARE 25 MILLION INSURGENTS, WE ARE JUST 120,000 (ARMY, NATIONAL GUARD, MARINES, NAVY, AIR FORCE, SPECIAL FORCES)..SORRY, BUT WE BETTER PACK AND LEAVE THAT INFERNO NOW!!!
November 17th, 2006 at 2:52 pmhttp://www.progressiveindependent.com/dc/dcboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=104&topic_id=50132====
Locals Accuse U.S. of Massacre in Ramadi
Submitted by davidswanson on Fri, 2006-11-17 18:30. Media
http://www.AfterDowningStreet.org
By Dahr Jamail and Ali al-Fadhily, Inter Press Service
RAMADI, Nov 17 (IPS) – U.S. military tank fire killed scores of
civilians in Ramadi, capital of Al-Anbar province, late Monday night,
according to witnesses and doctors. Anger and frustration were evidentat the hospitals and during the funerals in the following days.
Iraqi doctors and witnesses at the scene of the attack said U.S. tankskilled 35 civilians when they shelled several homes in the Al-Dhubatarea of the city.
…Jassim claimed that everyone killed was innocent, that they were notfighters. He said that when he and others attempted to reach the rubble of the destroyed homes, located near mosques whose minaret’s loudspeakers had broadcast pleas for help, “There was a big American force that stopped us and told us the usual ugly phrases we hear from them every day.”
Jassim, speaking with IPS while several other witnesses listened while nodding their heads, said that ambulances did not appear on the scene for hours because “we realised that the Americans did not allow them to move,” and that as a result, “there were people buried under the rubble who were bleeding to death while there was still a chance to rescue them.”
Jassim then burst into tears and walked away saying prayers to Allah to bless the souls of the dead.
…The scene at the hospital was tragic as doctors confirmed the reason of death for many as severe bleeding that had gone on for several hours. Most of the doctors were unwilling to discuss too many details for fear of U.S. military reprisals.
November 17th, 2006 at 2:56 pm******Dear Juan, Buenos tardes! – I know about the Crusades, Indians, etc. When i asked you about Christians killing and maiming non-Christiansand/or atheists, I was referring to contemporaneous attcks and murders – but you’re so bright, YOU KNEW THAT…..
November 17th, 2006 at 3:15 pm“a.) The number of Christian terrorists killing and maiming non-Christians and atheists. Comment by mighty aphroditeâ€
So far 650 THOUSAND in IRAQ!!”
******I always suspected you DESPISED our brave military…..Psssttttt… your numbers a tad inaccurate….but as accuracy in reporting never has been your strength….we appreciate your participation…….
November 17th, 2006 at 3:27 pmJuan C. mighty aphrodite is right. I don’t know many people that disagree that the crusades created anomosity with muslims, or that our meddling in the region has added to tensions. You can mention those things all day long. But if you look at recent history, Christians are not beheading muslims on the internet, we are not threatening Muslim leadership, we are not censoring Islamic plays, don’t threaten Middle Eastern cartoonist. I’m sure you are familiar with the idea that two wrongs don’t make a right. I am curious why you are so incredulous with western intolerance of the past and our attempts to spread democracy, but you are willing to turn a blind eye to the intolerance of Islam that has been and is growing more threatening day by day.
November 17th, 2006 at 3:41 pmNothing like a good old war in Iraq, with lots of dead civilians, I mean collateral damage, to lend support to the forces of moderation and tolerance in the Muslim World, and marginalize the extremists.
November 17th, 2006 at 4:12 pmJust imagine how you would feel if …ooops….your innocent family member was killed.
Paul…how many Muslim countries invaded Christians? Now, the other way around, please…
November 17th, 2006 at 4:54 pmSpreading democracy…you bought that big load of crap big time…
#132. Badger. I don’t know. Why don’t you ask the family members of the victims of 9/11.
November 17th, 2006 at 5:34 pmJuan C. It is happening my friend, but you don’t see it. Just so you know, if we leave Iraq or the Middle East for that matter, Islamic fundamentalist aren’t going to just peacefully exist in the Middle East. Their stated plan is to bring the world under Islamic law. They want to put the beautiful women of Argentina in burkas, they want you to praise Allah, whether you want to or not. If you want to complain about it on the internet, they want to take that right away from you. And I don’t know your sexual preference, but for our homosexual brothers and sisters, if they think life is difficult in western societies, I’m sure their predicament wouldn’t improve under Islam. You’re freedoms are in jeopardy, but you are so focused on the missteps of the west, you fail to realize the leaps of intolerance coming from the Middle East.
November 17th, 2006 at 5:42 pm#134 The events of 911 were horrible for the family members, and all Americans…me included. But I’m sorry, Iraq had NOTHING TO DO WITH IT.
November 17th, 2006 at 6:31 pmYou’re freedoms are in jeopardy, but you are so focused on the missteps of the west, you fail to realize the leaps of intolerance coming from the Middle East.
Comment by paul
I will answer later…have to go. Take care.
November 17th, 2006 at 7:17 pm…AND where did these radical muslims get the crazy idea that westerners were the devil, and it was ok to kill them all??? In school.AND who funds these schools??? hint: “fill ‘er up.
November 17th, 2006 at 8:03 pmI agree with Tom Friedman, we are funding both sides in the war on terror.
Russ – You should get down on your knees and THANK GOD there is an American soldier and Marine standing between you and those who wish you dead.
Comment by Mighty Hypocrite
Mighty Aphid, Tracy, and other trolls,
November 18th, 2006 at 3:10 amI advise you to look at the Iraq and Afghanistan Veterans of America (IAVA) website for their ratings on how each member of both houses has supported (or non-supported) matters of interest to men and women who actually served in these two countries. Feingold earned a solid B, as did Kerry. By contrast, I looked up the grades for 70 to 80% of the GOP Senators, including outgoing ones like Santorum, Macaca-llen, Burns, and Frist, and could find nothing better than a D+, and that includes the marks for veterans like Warner and McCain. Many earned Fs.
So much for Republican support of our troops and veterans! It is mostly a lot of lip-service. However, when it comes to agreeing to slightly more funding for research for traumatic brain injury, the Repugs, including Kay Bailey Hutchison and Liddy Dole, all voted against it.
Do the honors and provide the links.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:14 am140 I provided the link a few times, but it seems to have been caught in the spam filter. In other words, I couldn’t get it posted here. Please try googling it.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:48 pmTo make your googling easier, look up IAVA’s Congressional ratings. After at least three failed attempts, I have given up on trying to post the actual website.
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