McCain: Sending More Troops Would ‘Absolutely…Be Terrible’ For Military, Risks ‘Broken Army’
McCain: Sending More Troops Would ‘Absolutely…Be Terrible’ For Military, Risks ‘Broken Army’
Today on ABC’s This Week, Sen. John McCain (R-AZ) acknowledged that his plan to escalate the Iraq war by sending at least 20,000 more troops would “put a terrible strain on the Army and Marine Corps.” “Absolutely, it would be terrible,” he said, “we’re going to be asking people to go back again and again, maybe even extend their tours.” McCain said he “saw a broken Army in 1973″ and didn’t want to see another. Watch it:
As ThinkProgress has noted, McCain’s call for escalation would exacerbate the deteriorating situation in Iraq and would only further damage U.S. national security. Here’s at least two reasons why:
1) No troops to send. “Sending more troops to Iraq would, at the moment, threaten to break our nation’s all-volunteer Army and undermine our national security.” McCain suggests enlarging the force to send them to Iraq, an idea that is implausible to carry out over the short-term and would damage the military’s ability to recruit over the long-term.
2) The insurgency would grow more inflamed. “A more visible presence of U.S. troops risks further stoking the flames of the insurgency by feeding perceptions of long-term U.S. occupation among many Iraqis.” The recent effort to increase troop numbers in Baghdad has only increased violence. A recent poll of Iraqis indicated that support for attacks on US-led forces has grown to a majority position — now six in ten — a number sure to increase if more U.S. troops are put on the ground.
Full transcript:
MCCAIN: I notice that several retired generals, Gen. Zinni recently, Gen. Batiste, many others have said the same thing I said. Many other observers are in agreement with me. Would it put a terrible strain on the Army and Marine Corps? Absolutely, it would be terrible. We’re going to be asking people to go back again and again, maybe even extend their tours. But there’s only one thing worse, and that is defeat. I saw a broken Army in 1973, and I don’t want to see this Army and military — [Stephanopoulos interrupts.]
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Let’s see now… Send more troops but don’t send any more troops to support the troops we’re not going to send after we send more troops to support the troops we haven’t sent. And then we win.
November 19th, 2006 at 2:43 pmIt didn’t take McCain much time to change his mind,since he pressured general Abizaid about having more troops to win it in Iraq few days ago. Is Fox people around to give him the flip flop trophy?!
November 19th, 2006 at 2:48 pmBut there’s only one thing worse, and that is defeat. I saw a broken Army in 1973, and I don’t want to see this Army and military — [Stephanopoulos interrupts.]
Yeah, blah, blah, blah, McCain…
Ok, I have dial-up, and can’t watch the video, what did Stephanopoulos interrupt him with? An actual question? Something pertinent?
November 19th, 2006 at 2:55 pmIs he drinking that Dr. Jekyll´s stuff?
November 19th, 2006 at 2:56 pmMcCain and his sons should go fight in Iraq themselves immediately, or otherwise Johnny better shut up his vile yapper!
November 19th, 2006 at 2:58 pmThis asshole has run his course. He doesn’t know who he is, or what he believes. All he knows is he likes attention and will do anything to suck off of power. I guess it’s easier that way. He has lost “his way” just like the his party. Lost his way…….nice way of putting it. That bubble they’re all in must be pretty cushy
November 19th, 2006 at 2:59 pmMcCain thinks he is president already, so we are expected to listen to everything he spews, but only way Johnny can become Prez is if vote fraud occurs massively in 2008!
November 19th, 2006 at 3:06 pmWhen he compromised on the torture bill, he compromised his integrity and he seems really…lost. He used to be counted on as the voice of reason in the republican party. Now just another useless talking head.
November 19th, 2006 at 3:06 pmSorry, Zooey,
The video ends there.
One interesting thing: he blinks a lot. Isn’t that a sign of,oh let’s be kind and say, a fibber?
November 19th, 2006 at 3:08 pmOne interesting thing: he blinks a lot. Isn’t that a sign of,oh let’s be kind and say, a fibber?
Comment by trueblue
He’s blinking the flopsweat out of his eyes. :P
November 19th, 2006 at 3:10 pmMcCain digs himself into a deep hole one day, then the next day he tries to climb out, but nobody is supposed to notice his flip flops. I call him “Flipper” for that dolphin on the TV show > lol.
November 19th, 2006 at 3:14 pmMcCain is now retracting his continued call for “more troops” for “one last push”?? I realize that he’s the ORIGINAL FLIP-FLOPPER of this country; however, it would appear that now he’s contradicting himself within the same week.
Here’s what we, the people, must absolutely insist upon: a full psychiatric evaluation and public “report” of the mental condition of anyone running for the presidency. Now that would eliminate most of the GOP right now!
November 19th, 2006 at 3:30 pmFlipper McGee-McCain cannot be trusted. He doesn’t even know who he is at this point since he’s sold his integrity for political gain. How can a man who says one thing one day and the reverse another EVER be trusted to run a country. Down with McCain before he even consider running. He’s a washed up, old, tired “has been” who has now pimped himself to the GOP so long that he’s caught their disease: Hoof ‘n Mouth Disease.
To plagiarize a bit of Ann Richards here: Flipper McGee can’t help it…he was born with a silver thumb up his arse>
November 19th, 2006 at 3:32 pmHe keeps saying that we can’t accept defeat yet he never defines what victory looks like. If he wants us to stay then he needs to come out for the draft so EVERYBODY’s children get a chance to go rather than sending the same folks over and over again. I can’t think of anything more depressing than to get out of Iraq only to have to face going back. How in the world do you prepare yourself for that?
November 19th, 2006 at 3:32 pmIsn’t it true that people administering lie detector tests often watch people for the “blinking response”?? Looks like Flipper McCain has it!
November 19th, 2006 at 3:33 pmThat’s what I though, too, veritas.
It’s one of those involuntary reactions to being a big, fat, liar
November 19th, 2006 at 3:40 pmsomeone not being forthright.
Since no one can provide a definition of “victory”….a “plan” or precisely who the “enemy” is what the heck are we still doing there killing people and ourselves? It’s amoral and senseless. Staying there only complicates the deaths, cost (of course our war machine corporations love it!) and destruction of their country.
And, you’re right (above post)….we’re all getting sick of seeing McCain’s nasty mug on the tube without anything of substance to say. He’s a fried up, washed up, now sick-looking has been and it’s time for him to retire.
November 19th, 2006 at 3:41 pmAny usefulness to the country has been squandered by his contradictions, lies. and spin. Go away Flipper McGee/McCain!
Is there anyone who believes anything this guy says, anymore? (Besides Stephanopolous, I mean.) If this man isn’t portrayed as the most flip-flopping of flip-floppers, the Dem’s don’t deserve the presidency.
November 19th, 2006 at 3:42 pmI hope they’re keeping records.
That’s what I though, too, veritas.
It’s one of those involuntary reactions to being a big, fat, liar
someone not being forthright.
Comment by trueblue — November 19, 2006 @
Oops. Tried to do the strikeout. Didn’t work.
November 19th, 2006 at 3:43 pmSorry!
Hey TP! What’s with the “All McCain, All the Time” format?
I’m starting to twitch!
November 19th, 2006 at 3:49 pmOH!! ANother thing. Why doesn’t SOMEONE FINALLY ASK WHAT IS WINNING IN IRAQ??? It wasn’t the elimination of a dangerous threat and weapons of mass destruction. It wasn’t the fall of Iraq. It wasn’t free and fair elections..(Well, about as free and fair as those in Ohio and Florida.) Is it now the killing of all the inusrgents that are there, so they don’t “follow us home”, because I don’t think that’s every going to happen. Our troops there are fighting only to survive. With this objective in mind, every soldier we bring home NOW, is a winner. Conversely, every soldier we loses is another tragic step towards defeat. Bring them home now!
November 19th, 2006 at 3:50 pmSenior Democrat renews call for military draft
What a great idea?
November 19th, 2006 at 3:50 pmI thought McCain was co-host of Meet the Press, what’s he doing on ABC?
November 19th, 2006 at 3:53 pmMcCain and his sons should go fight in Iraq themselves immediately, or otherwise Johnny better shut up his vile yapper!
Comment by Jay Randal — November 19, 2006 @ 2:58 pm
Of all the people you could say that about McCain isn’t one of them. I think he knows a whole lot more about war than most people running their mouths.
Why are you demanding his sons go? What position do they have on Iraq? Oh, I am guessing because their dad has one, they need to serve. OK. I suppose if your dad supported the war and you didn’t I should demand you go?
November 19th, 2006 at 3:58 pmMcCain Was/is a war hero, but
November 19th, 2006 at 4:02 pmhas been away from the front lines too
long, as have I, however, if all the reserves and national guard were with-
drawn, sent home to rest and recooperate
perhaps the insurgents would gather and
claim victory.
After they gather in sufficient numbers
we could knock hell out of them with our
regulars and the Iraqi Army told about it
at the last minute.
As an after thought, all submarine
personnel had a psychiatric evaluation
prior to serving, that is a great idea.
comment by Chief McCurry
Syria seeks US pullout timetable
Setting a timetable for the withdrawal of US forces from Iraq would reduce violence, Walid Moallem, the Syrian foreign minister, has said.
Moallem, on the first official Syrian visit to Iraq since 1982, and his Iraqi counterpart, Hoshyar Zebari, said on Sunday in Baghdad they had discussed restoring diplomatic relations between the two nations.
November 19th, 2006 at 4:04 pmTundra > if you support the Iraq war, then get your ass over there too. I do not care if you a 5 feet tall or weigh 500 pounds. Those who desire warfare must fight in it. As for McCains’s sons they can go to the news media and tell the press they will not die for him.
November 19th, 2006 at 4:05 pmTundra > if you support the Iraq war, then get your ass over there too. I do not care if you a 5 feet tall or weigh 500 pounds. Those who desire warfare must fight in it. As for McCains’s sons they can go to the news media and tell the press they will not die for him.
Comment by Jay Randal — November 19, 2006 @ 4:05 pm
Gee Jay, I never supported going over there in the first place. But I don’t support leaving now that we screwed the pooch all up.
Since you have a you must go mentality I assume you don’t advocate sending our troops on any more of these pesky humanitarian aid runs everyone is so fond of? If you do I can safetly assume that if we get wrapped up in Darfur or somewhere’s you will be right there in line?
As far as my height and weight, I’m still within Infantry standards.
November 19th, 2006 at 4:10 pmAs for McCains’s sons they can go to the news media and tell the press they will not die for him.
Oh because they try and lead a non-pubic life they are guilty of supporting the war? To be innocent they have to prove they aren’t? Isn’t that a little backwards?
November 19th, 2006 at 4:12 pmThink McCain would have taken lightly an automatic re-up of his service?
No way.
He should know better.
I state again, I’m outta here if they do that.
November 19th, 2006 at 4:14 pmThey’d probably try to give my epileptic daughter a rifle and send her over.
Over my dead body, Mr. Bush!
Bush left reality behind. Now we are all trapped
For Americans, Iraq has ceased to be a video game running along the edge of public consciousness. The midterm congressional elections demonstrate that the US public wants to get out of Iraq almost as much as the British, as does the attention suddenly given to the Baker-Hamilton Commission, which was actually set up months ago.
But how is exit to be accomplished? Clearly the White House does not know, nor does the US army. The Baker-Hamilton Commission is unlikely to know, as its members were chosen because they represent the higher reaches of the conventional wisdom.
Yet the impression the Bush administration now gives is that the whole matter has been put into the hands of Baker’s group – which is ridiculous, especially as the President continues to declare that inviting Iran and Syria to help stabilise Iraq is unacceptable; he is against talking to them, and says he still expects ‘victory’. If so, what is the purpose of the commission?
So this is the situation in which both the administration and most of the Democratic opposition find themselves. The existing policy is a failure, yet nothing can be changed because no one can imagine a valid alternative. American intentions and actions have, it is held, been correct, their goals irreproachable.
If anyone is to blame it is the Iraqis, who failed to seize the wonderful opportunity the United States offered them. Neocons are now saying that the Iraqis did not deserve our help. Some suggest they are an inferior breed.
I don’t include Britain in this accusation because, whatever Tony Blair’s mesmerised submission to the charms of George Bush, the British government, its people and forces have not been living in this condition of denied reality.
In America, it’s as though Bush, his inner cabinet, and the neocons have been playing a video game, with fictional characters and victims, virtual death and torture. Now the disc has suddenly finished, and it’s time to shut down the player.
This is not just a figure of speech. American policy has been running on images rather than evidence of real nations and people doing things for real human motives. It has been populated by abstractions: Global Terrorist Conspiracies, Rogue Nations, Fanatics Who Hate Our Freedoms, Generations of Terrorism and The Global Menace of Al-Qaeda.
The US, where actual people live, has been turned into an abstraction: the Sole Superpower, which everyone in the world knows is a Righteous Nation, the Mars (in the neocon Robert Kagan’s formulation) defending the fragile Venus which is Europe, the Straussian (Leo Strauss, the University of Chicago philosopher) Realist unflinchingly battling in a Hobbesian universe to protect Kantian Europeans, with their illusions of global parliaments and peace, from nameless horrors.
We are the tranquil Elephant (as another American academic, Michael Mandelbaum, has proposed) which by its very presence guards the smaller beasts of the savanna from carnivorous predators.
This is what we exist to do. We are the leading nation, the most moral, born with the redemptive mission to create what the Puritan preacher Jonathan Winthrop called the ‘City on the Hill’, the democracy ‘of the people and by the people’ that originated the modern world with our repudiation of monarchy and inherited privilege, establishing the greatest of republics, saving the Four Freedoms for the world by winning (alone!) both First and Second World Wars, then the Cold War, and now confronting the ultimate test of the ‘long war’ against Evil itself, incarnate as Terror.
Today this is the language of government, journalism, politics and foreign policy in the US, spoken in the policy discussions at Washington think-tanks and on the editorial pages of newspapers.
Is this Orwellian? Or is it just demagogy, politicians’ lies, White House spin, journalistic laziness, formulations conceived to sell books? Or could it be cynical manipulation by apprentice dictators, energy industry and weapons-maker magnates, closet fascists?
It is not Orwellian in that the neocon ideologues, George Bush and Tony Blair, certainly believe all this. They are not being manipulated.
It is not Orwellian because the creators of this cartoon-like conceptual world have themselves become actors in the virtual universe their ideas and actions have made. They have left reality behind – or they simply ignore it, as they did in invading Iraq.
We have passed from 1984 to 2006, into a post-Orwellian condition in which Big Brother has become a part of his creation. He is now imposing it on others by acting as though it were real, at whatever expense to others.
This is our problem today. In some measure we have all been drawn into this virtual world. How do we leave?
· William Pfaff is a senior American commentator on international affairs and American foreign policy. All rights reserved.
November 19th, 2006 at 4:16 pmKissinger: Iraq military win impossible
LONDON – Military victory is no longer possible in Iraq, former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said in a television interview broadcast Sunday.
November 19th, 2006 at 4:22 pmSo he wants to send more troops, but he doesn’t want to send more troops.
November 19th, 2006 at 4:23 pmMcCain is quickly losing reality. The Powell doctrine was “overwhelming force” – 20,000 additional soldiers is ridiculous – all he would provide is 20,000 more targets. The hole we are in in Iraq is so deep now no one can see the way out of the darkness, and McCain sure isn’t exhibiting any ray of light.
The hole we are in in Iraq is so deep now no one can see the way out of the darkness, and McCain sure isn’t exhibiting any ray of light.
Comment by Marie —
Very well put, Marie.
November 19th, 2006 at 4:31 pmI agree.
McCain is ‘playing the three cards’ with the issue..Now you see it , now you don’t…
November 19th, 2006 at 4:54 pmWow, Marie. That was good.
November 19th, 2006 at 4:54 pmWell, Janus McCain has increased his incredibility substantially…
November 19th, 2006 at 5:03 pmOh Jay,
Your wish was granted.
McCain’s Son Enlists 7/2006
http://www.thenation.com/blogs/notion?pid=106947
November 19th, 2006 at 5:13 pmCarve-up of oil riches begins
Sunday November 3, 2002
US plans to ditch industry rivals and force end of Opec,
Its funny looking back at the headlines from 4 years ago – Should read
November 19th, 2006 at 5:16 pmCarve-up of oil riches begins
Iran 100% and Opec still strong
Oh and Jay,
http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/07/29/politics/main1847378.shtml
Another of Sen. McCain’s seven children, Jack, 20, just completed his first year at the U.S. Naval Academy in Annapolis.
November 19th, 2006 at 5:18 pmWIN WHAT? This guy should be one of the characters on the road to OZ looking for COMMON SENSE. There is NO PLAN – never was one. Wasn’t rule number one to stop digging when you find yourself in a hole?
November 19th, 2006 at 5:43 pm3) our logistics are severely overstretched and vulnerable
November 19th, 2006 at 6:31 pmI really hope McCain is not elected president
November 19th, 2006 at 6:36 pmFlippity, floppity, flippity, floppity, flippity, floppity, flip…
November 19th, 2006 at 6:57 pmLike a fish out of water…
November 19th, 2006 at 7:01 pmSome President he’d make. Is he trying to beat the Chimpster as worst?
November 19th, 2006 at 7:32 pmBut Kissinger just said the Iraq war is not winnable. [Quagmire]
McCain seems to have lost his the connection to his Buckley Fax about said quagmire.
Is McCain the new Kissinger clade?
November 19th, 2006 at 7:32 pmI see that Falwells speech coach has not helped Kissinger McClade in the least.
November 19th, 2006 at 7:36 pmJOHN MCCAIN: “We leave this place, chaos in the region, and they’ll follow us home. So there’s a great deal more at stake here in this conflict, in my view, a lot more.”
JUST ONCE. Would a reporter follow up on “or they will follow us home” one freekin time????
Since 95 percent of the Iraqi’s are in the midst of a civil war that rules them out. Al Queda accounts for about 3 percent of those who have taken up arms.
Now how are they going to follow us? Carnival Cruise ship maybe? Will they jump into their submarines and invade us that way? Or perhaps, they will parachute into our country from the planes of their powerful Air Force?
It’s bogus propoganda that the sheep in this country believe, although the number of those still on the sheep bandwagon are thinning considerably.
November 19th, 2006 at 7:38 pmAnyone wanna have meaningless banter?
November 19th, 2006 at 7:43 pmYes. Is there a dead thread?
November 19th, 2006 at 7:45 pmBridge to Nowhere
November 19th, 2006 at 7:49 pmThe Senator’s powers for the stating the obvious are most uncanny.
November 19th, 2006 at 7:51 pmThe pearcing eyes of this monkey just me shutter. Tortured beyond recoginition. WTF.
November 19th, 2006 at 8:16 pmGood Tundra then all 7 of McCain’s children can be sent to the combat hot zones in Iraq! I repeat those who desire war to continue in Iraq must go fight and die there! If all the sons and daughters of DC politicians had to go to Iraq, then that war/occupation would end fast!
November 19th, 2006 at 9:55 pmI can’t beleive McCain, he used to be so different, now it seems all he cares about is running for President.
November 19th, 2006 at 10:20 pmWould it put a terrible strain on the Army and Marine Corps? Absolutely, it would be terrible. [...] But there’s only one thing worse, and that is defeat.
In other words, McCain thinks more people have to die in order for the Republican party to save face.
Because we all know the “defeat” McCain is talking about is the recognition that the invasion of Iraq was a mistake.
November 19th, 2006 at 11:19 pm“Military victory is no longer possible in Iraq,” former Secretary of State Henry Kissinger said in a television interview broadcast Sunday. Kissinger presented a bleak vision of Iraq, saying the U.S. government must enter into dialogue with Iraq’s regional neighbors — including Iran — if progress is to be made in the region.
November 20th, 2006 at 12:30 am– Washington Post
Man were becoming the mafia. thats a syndicated msg (how totally fx?X!xxup is Bush?)
November 20th, 2006 at 2:50 amHERES THE ANSWER
Who’s Against a Ban on
Fissile Material?
by Michael Carmichael
In 2005, Mohamed ElBaradei was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his outstanding work in the international control of nuclear weapons. In 2003, ElBaradei had proposed a verifiable ban on the production of weapons-grade fissile material – a positive move that would severely limit the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
In a vote of the Disarmament Committee of the United Nations (UN), one and only one nation voted against ElBaradei’s proposal – George Bush’s America. In that same vote, Israel abstained, apparently fearing international interference with their own outlaw nuclear weapons program, and Britain abstained in an act of diplomatic fealty to the “special relationship” between Tony Blair and George Bush. The final tally was 147 nations to one with the two abstentions. In a later vote of the entire UN General Assembly, Israel and Britain abstained, while America and Palau voted against ElBaradei’s verifiable ban on fission, and 179 nations voted in favor of his proposal. The final vote on that occasion was 179 in favor, two opposed (U.S. and Palau), and two abstentions (Israel and Britain).
ElBaradei’s proposal would monitor all nuclear fission and guarantee that non-nuclear weapons states would be able to obtain adequate supplies for their nonmilitary usage of enriched plutonium.
One nation has publicly accepted ElBaradei’s proposal: Iran.
November 20th, 2006 at 5:50 amWho’s Against a Ban on
Fissile Material?
by Michael Carmichael
In 2005, Mohamed ElBaradei was awarded the Nobel Peace Prize for his outstanding work in the international control of nuclear weapons. In 2003, ElBaradei had proposed a verifiable ban on the production of weapons-grade fissile material – a positive move that would severely limit the proliferation of nuclear weapons.
In a vote of the Disarmament Committee of the United Nations (UN), one and only one nation voted against ElBaradei’s proposal – George Bush’s America. In that same vote, Israel abstained, apparently fearing international interference with their own outlaw nuclear weapons program, and Britain abstained in an act of diplomatic fealty to the “special relationship” between Tony Blair and George Bush. The final tally was 147 nations to one with the two abstentions. In a later vote of the entire UN General Assembly, Israel and Britain abstained, while America and Palau voted against ElBaradei’s verifiable ban on fission, and 179 nations voted in favor of his proposal. The final vote on that occasion was 179 in favor, two opposed (U.S. and Palau), and two abstentions (Israel and Britain).
ElBaradei’s proposal would monitor all nuclear fission and guarantee that non-nuclear weapons states would be able to obtain adequate supplies for their nonmilitary usage of enriched plutonium.
One nation has publicly accepted ElBaradei’s proposal: Iran.
November 20th, 2006 at 5:52 amJust be glad that McCain keeps making these inane, contradictory statements between now and the 2008 primary season. Every last one of them will come back to bite him in the ass. Even the press can’t spin real video showing McCain to be the empty suit he truly is.
Perhaps Dubya’s smear campaign against McCain in 2000 had some truth to it – McCain’s year’s as a POW did knock a few screws loose. This statement sure exemplifies that assertion.
November 20th, 2006 at 7:09 amI TELL YOU ALL NOW GET OUT OF IRAQ GO HOME AND STOP MAKING WARS – we dont need this shit
November 20th, 2006 at 7:15 amDoesn’t McCain realize that sending more troops and putting a “terrible strain” on our military will: A) probably not have much measurable effect on bringing the mess in Iraq under control. B) Is just as likely to cause a “broken army” as the current situation in Iraq. Pandora’s box was opened by BushCo. back in March of 03, I don’t think McCain gets that yet.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:59 amJohn “Yawny” Mac is another dumbass Repub who can’t decide what he is, who he is, what he stands for, or what the hell is going on anywhere at anytime. Not only is he a flip-flopper on the troop deal, look at the report just published about what he’s saying about Wade vs. Roe. Now he thinks he’s for overturning, in ‘99 he was dead set against it?? All he wants to be is the PrezNut like DumbYa. Just wait later this week he’ll be reamped up for bombing the hell out of Iran because of some puke the Iraeli intelligence made up that only DumbYa and Dipshit Dick and the Hawks over at the Pentanglegon get to see and they actually believe this vomit.
November 20th, 2006 at 12:51 pmC’MON AMERCIA WAKE THE HELL UP AND GET INVOLVED WITH THIS MINDLESS CRAP CRUSADE FROM DUMBYA AND THE DIP, are you kidding me?? Whataya gotta do to stop these maniacs. Are you f’ing kidding me, c’mon ya’ll, damn !!!
mccain served and sacrificed in viet nam, he should take a load of and retire, gracefully.
November 20th, 2006 at 5:55 pm[...] John McCain has bravely taken the Friedmanesque position that America will lose if she doesn’t do exactly what he prescribes, even though he admits that doing so would probably break the Army. In other words McCain won’t let himself get caught on tape saying that America will lose this war but he doesn’t mind if you connect the dots. [...]
December 6th, 2006 at 10:19 am[...] McCain: Sending More Troops Would ‘Absolutely…Be Terrible’ For Military, Risks ‘Broken Army’ [...]
January 6th, 2007 at 10:59 pm