ThinkFast: November 20, 2006
ThinkFast: November 20, 2006
The Army is rewriting a key field manual, the authoritative guidebook on how to conduct ground operations, “in a way that rejects the Rumsfeld doctrine [emphasizing speed over massive troop numbers] and counsels against using it again.”
“Tony Blair’s apparent agreement with a suggestion that the Iraqi war has been disastrous was a ‘straightforward slip of the tongue,’ said the British Prime Minister’s official spokesperson on Saturday.”
A new report by the Government Accountability Office has “criticized the Bush administration for failing to check if federally funded abstinence-only programs actually work to curb teen sex.”
Bush’s warrantless domestic surveillance bill: “Not gonna happen.” Last week, Bush sent Capitol Hill a “plea for a legislative stamp of approval on the controversial spy effort,” calling it an “important priority in the war on terror.” Senate Republicans responded with “deafening silence.”
A top secret Pentagon group tasked with refocusing Iraq strategy has “devised a hybrid plan” that combines a temporary increase of 20,000-30,000 troops with a subsequent partial withdrawal and long-term effort to train and advise Iraqi forces.
Following a nationwide rash of harassing election week “robocalls,” officials in Virginia, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania have introduced measures to curb the practice.
Some five years after No Child Left Behind was made law, there has been “little progress” toward closing the minority/white test-score gap, which is “so large that, on average, African-American and Hispanic students in high school can read and do arithmetic at only the average level of whites in junior high school.”
Preliminary findings from a 10-month investigation into NASA’s Inspector General “outlines allegations that he stifled investigations, mistreated department employees and maintained a close personal relationship with top officials of the agency he was supposed to independently monitor.”
The author of an Occupational Safety and Health Administration advisory on asbestos in brakes faces suspension from the agency after refusing to alter the warning to include language from the automobile industry.
And finally: Connecticut for Lieberman attacks Lieberman. Fairfield University professor John Orman has “seized control” of the party “after registering as its sole member and electing himself as chairman.” Orman has established new bylaws that open up the nomination process to “anyone whose last name is Lieberman…or any critic of the senator.” “It’s an interesting little wrinkle,” said an attorney for the Secretary of State’s office.
What did we miss? Let us know in the comments section.
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So no child left behind isn’t doing anything useful for black and Hispanic students. Is it doing anyone any good?
November 20th, 2006 at 9:15 amDon’t worry. Charlie Rangle will fix everything by brining back the draft.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:17 amI wish abstinence worked, and those on the religious right would practice it with the same enthusiasm as they follow their false gods.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:18 amI’m still giddy that we’ve got some accountability and hopefully, some checks and balances to further the political impotency of the Shrub.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:21 am“Tony Blair’s apparent agreement with a suggestion that the Iraqi war has been disastrous was a ‘straightforward slip of the tongue,’”
*******************************
Oh, it was a “slip of the tongue” all right…a Freudian slip!
November 20th, 2006 at 9:22 amThe guy who is the new “chairman” of CfL has far too much time on his hands.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:22 amAmerica’s Least Wanted
A top secret Pentagon group tasked with refocusing Iraq strategy has “devised a hybrid planâ€
Do the Oil Companies know about this?
November 20th, 2006 at 9:25 am“A straightforward slip of the tongue.” Which means the poodle accidentally spoke the truth and is now running from it.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:25 amIs it doing anyone any good?
Comment by skeptic
Testing companies
November 20th, 2006 at 9:27 amAnd finally: Connecticut for Lieberman attacks Lieberman.
He nominated himself chairman, seconded the nomination, cast his vote for himself and proceeded to establish party rules.
Orman said the “party” is upset that Lieberman has abandoned it and says he is an “Independent Democrat.”
I am dying over here, that’s funny.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:27 amConnecticut for Lieberman party of one, your table is ready
November 20th, 2006 at 9:31 amHe nominated himself chairman, seconded the nomination,
AH HA!!!!! election fraud, I’m pretty sure you can’t second yourself.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:32 amI guess we can get teh additional 20,000-30,000 troope from Rangle’s draft. Anyone notice that is not mentioned anywhere on this site?
November 20th, 2006 at 9:34 amI guess we can get the additional 20,000-30,000 troops from Rangle’s draft. Anyone notice that is not mentioned anywhere on this site?
November 20th, 2006 at 9:35 amHappy and Robert, do you support or oppose a draft?
November 20th, 2006 at 9:37 amAH HA!!!!! election fraud, I’m pretty sure you can’t second yourself.
Comment by squegeeboo — November 20, 2006 @ 9:32 am
I think you may be right there Squegee. Great, now the party is going to be considered a farse. Darn
November 20th, 2006 at 9:38 amAnyone notice that is not mentioned anywhere on this site?
Yeah I think he is sorta being a renegade here. We know what happens to renegades…. Beep Beep “Watch that bus”!!
November 20th, 2006 at 9:40 amWhat have we been doing for the last 3 1/2 Years? Isn’t now a little late to finally be drafting a plan for Iraq. Nearly 3,000 Americans have been slaughtered in that quagmire and just now someone finally begins to question the policy? How many more Americans will be committed to die just so some Washington policitian can possibly save face? In the end nobody is going to be able to save any face anyway.
In the meantime, Bush has shifted from threatening North Korea if they build a nuclear bomb to threating North Korea is they attempt to sell nuclear material to other nations or groups. In other words, Bush has caved to North Korea becoming a nuclear nation. But this threat too is empty. The same fingerprint exists for nuclear weapons from Pakistan, North Korea and Iran because they all come from the same source, our “ally” Pakistan.
Has American foreign policy ever been in such shambles as it is today? I think not.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:44 amRobert & Gay Guy,
Because everyone knows it (draft) will go no where, and what’s the big deal about it anyway? Ahhh a dem brought the idea up. Sorry for you, but it’s really not newsworthy anywhere. He’s tried this before, it failed, he tried again, and it will fail again. End of story. And plenty of “left” blogs have posted it. But I side with TP on this one, and I don’t always follow TP’s ideals, like how they refuse to report anything bad about Israel.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:48 amThe Army is rewriting a key field manual, the authoritative guidebook on how to conduct ground operations, “in a way that rejects the Rumsfeld doctrine [emphasizing speed over massive troop numbers] and counsels against using it again.â€
The body isn’t even cold and his “legacy” is already being undermined and forgotten. Much too late. Looks like someone will have to clean up the mess left by another Reagan era idiot.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:58 amUN slams Israel rights violation
The UN high commissioner for human rights has slammed rights violations in the Palestinian territories as she visited the site of a deadly botched Israeli shelling in the Gaza Strip.
Louise Arbour told reporters during her brief visit to Gaza on Monday: “The violations of human rights in the Palestinian territories are intolerable.”
“I think it’s clear that civilians are tremendously exposed.”
Arbour said that her visit was to express UN condolences and show concern for civilians in Beit Hanoun where some 80 people were killed in this month’s Israeli offensive.
THANKS TO BOLTON AND BUSH THIS IS STILL HAPPENING another 5 civillians killed yesterday……..All the troubles in the world are due this this Isreal – America ties . even Iraq Iran and Syria is due to this
November 20th, 2006 at 10:00 amWell Happy Guy if Bush the failed MBA had not bought the war in Iraq maybe the mandatory service [not a draft per say] wouldn’t have to be enforced.
And Happy Guy if we took all the right wing chicken hawks, such as Jigga [post below] eho cried for this war, the ‘clash of civilizations’ as the AEI/PNAC think-tank geniuses called their plan fror perpetual war [war on terror] maybe we wouldn’t need a mandatory service act.
Rumsfeld [an investment banker] is another cheerleader for the PNAC/AEI/MIC and sees human lives, or the loss of them, as money in the bank. These fools have created an industry, multi-billions of dollars a year, that requires perpetual war and cold wars to keep it running.
War should never be a business, thats how troops become nation builders, Like George said he wouldn’t do, he did. [more new speak]
Welcome to GOP Orwellia Happy Ass!!
November 20th, 2006 at 10:02 amHmm.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:03 amWhat’s the “big deal” about suggesting a draft? Sure it’s mostly a media ploy, but it brings up MANY serious issues about our current state in Iraq. A draft is a legitimate possibility if we’re going to “defeat the Islamic fascists” per the Neocon model, to increase the size of our military. Since very few would support a draft, it brings up the discussion of what is a just War, and brings the War home to many Politicians and pundits who are such Warmongerers.
The idea behind the suggestion is to bring about more insightful discussions on the Hill pertaining to Iraq, Iran, etc.
So Tony accidentally told the truth. Imagine that, they call telling the truth a slip of the tongue.
WTF kind of governance is that when we say we are all about freedom equality and brotherhood yet only speak truthfully in slips of the tongue?
November 20th, 2006 at 10:05 amStop being the bullies of the world and you will not need a draught
Easy eh ? pretend to be gay or a pot smoker and you wont have to go
November 20th, 2006 at 10:07 amStop being the bullies of the world and you will not need a draught
I always need a Draught, it’s a draft that’s bad :)
It was a little play on words :), get it Draught, Draft. Ok it was funny in my wierd warped sense of humor way.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:14 amUN slams Israel rights violation
Comment by Tobey Tall
Dont worry, Tobey. US will veto any UN resolution about it. Thats how the greatest country in the world performs.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:14 amDeads by me and my friends= OK.
Deads by other guys = Not OK. (Unless I supported them with cool, shiny weapons)
A new report by the Government Accountability Office has “criticized the Bush administration for failing to check if federally funded abstinence-only programs actually work to curb teen sex.â€
Of course they didn’t check. They only throw things out there that sound good when they need the vote, then who cares….f*ck it.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:14 amBush has justified No Child Left Behind by arguing that we need to test and measure the results so we know whether or not we’ve been effective in teaching our kids. Why not apply that to the abstinence-only programs? Prove they’re effective or we cut off funds immediately. In fact, we could use that on a lot of Bush programs. Prove that tax cuts for the rich are helping the economy and not just digging a deeper whole for the deficit. Show us the metrics or end the program immediately.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:18 amBush’s warrantless domestic surveillance bill: “Not gonna happen.†Last week, Bush sent Capitol Hill a “plea for a legislative stamp of approval on the controversial spy effort,†calling it an “important priority in the war on terror.†Senate Republicans responded with “deafening silence.â€
That’s nice, really special. It really doesn’t matter though, does it, since GWB has his little Military Commissions Bill all tied up in a neat little package.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:18 amFollowing a nationwide rash of harassing election week “robocalls,†officials in Virginia, Connecticut, and Pennsylvania have introduced measures to curb the practice.
I had at least 5 of these calls every single day for weeks. I don’t know anyone who listened to any of the messages.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:20 am[....Slip of a tongue]. Is Tony taking a ‘flip flop’ course given by Senator McCain…saying one thing today and saying the opposite the day after. !!!
November 20th, 2006 at 10:21 amThe author of an Occupational Safety and Health Administration advisory on asbestos in brakes faces suspension from the agency after refusing to alter the warning to include language from the automobile industry.
Good for him/her. Backbone is desirable in the world today.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:23 amI oppose a draft in this instance.
1) With the current size of our military there is no need for a draft. If the Army would follow the example that Marine Corps has laid out and not specialize troops so much that they know one job and one job only, they would be able to better allocate their forces.
2) A conscript military is not a professional military. If people think they have seen atrocities up to this point, put in a bunch of involuntary troops that are p*ssed off that they got called away from their civilian life.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:26 amZooey, if on the VERY OFF chance a draft was initiated and your son was called up, would he serve or would you support his serving?
November 20th, 2006 at 10:31 amRobert,
My son and I have discussed this. He would serve, and I would support that decision — in agony. And I would extoll the virtues of loving in New Zealand. :)
November 20th, 2006 at 10:35 amAnd *living* in New Zealand, too. :)
November 20th, 2006 at 10:35 amWow, I got called Gay Guy as an insult on a liberal website? Anyone notice that? Why is that an insult?
Why does this website not mention the draft? And if it will go nowhere why are you supporting a guy who is wasting everyone’s time with useless legislation?
I personally do not support the draft, for a few reasons, but right now a volunteer armed forces does work. People know what risk / benefits are and make a decision. On the other hand I think many of the dead-beat kids around these days would benefit greatly.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:36 am#28 Zooey, I suspect that they really know it’s not working and don’t want to put that out there. If it were confirmed to not be working, then they might have to end that particular cash flow ‘bone-us’ to the faith-based community.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:36 amAgain, although we disagree on most things, it is apparent that you are not just some rhetoric spouting nut. Good to see you in here today!
November 20th, 2006 at 10:38 amHappy Guy, #38I noticed that too. And you are right about supporting someone that is wasting time with useless legislation. But I think we are all guilty of that at soome point.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:41 amHappy Guy, #38 I noticed that too. And you are right about supporting someone that is wasting time with useless legislation. But I think we are all guilty of that at soome point.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:42 amHappy Guy: how’s this for useless legislation that wastes everyone’s time: “Freedom Fries.” Or the flag burning amendment. Of course, if I wanted to point out legislation passed by the Repubs that not only wastes time but also wastes billions in taxpayer money, the list would go on for pages and pages.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:47 amA draft is a thing to avoid when one is wearin’ th’ kilt!
;-)
November 20th, 2006 at 10:48 amDienowforpeace,
So “we talk” about it for a few days, big whoop. “We” also tend to look elsewhere for news not spoon fed by MSM. Most of America doesn’t know, or care until the draft would actually start. Most of America will forget all about it when the next episode of Lost or American Idol is on. This issue is a non-issue. We (our govt), needs to work on corruption, lobbying, shutting down the federal reserve, impeaching chimp and cheney. But it’s just a waste of time our “leaders” *cough* should be using doing actually constructive.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:51 amNOTICE: 2 very different people here – Robert and robert…
i noticed the confusion last evening…
November 20th, 2006 at 10:51 am#44 BnF…..Thank’s for the Monday morning funny, I needed that…LOL…Blessings
November 20th, 2006 at 10:53 amHappy who cares. I’ve seen enough of your idiotic posts here on TP to know you’re nothing but a troll, and trolls get no respect.
Don’t like being called names, then go hang out with the rest of the closet gays on redstate.
November 20th, 2006 at 10:54 amA top secret Pentagon group tasked with refocusing Iraq strategy has “devised a hybrid plan 
November 20th, 2006 at 10:57 amBottom line is how do we format an ‘Honorable Exit’ from Iraq.
How can a ‘Dishonorable Entrance’ equate to an ‘Honorable Exit’?
It cannot.
Why is saving face a bigger priority than saving lives?
Support our troops!
Get out now.
Wow, I got called Gay Guy as an insult on a liberal website? Anyone notice that?
I don’t agree with that, Happy Dude, but when YOU hurl insults, prepare to be “peppered back”, such as:
You anto-American Terroist lovers are a riot.
Comment by Happy Guy — November 17, 2006 @ 12:49 pm
Now, Gay=Happy, so maybe someone was using a Thesaurus and was actually given a compliment. Or maybe not
Why does this website not mention the draft? Maybe because it doesn’t promote the advancement of progressive ideas, or maybe because it’s still friggin’ early in the day!
And if it will go nowhere why are you supporting a guy who is wasting everyone’s time with useless legislation?
Actually, he does bring up a good point, regarding this administration’s overuse of the military, to which many believe has spread our forces unevenly throughout the world, leaving us particulary vulnarable if an attack happened on our soil.
Now, I don’t agree with how he is doing this, but I do agree with the point, which is TO BRING OUR TROOPS FROM IRAQ BACK HOME
Another point he is trying to make is that all the Chicken Hawks of the right would not be so eager for war if their children actually HAD TO SERVE
November 20th, 2006 at 10:58 amRangel makes an excellent point about the draft. If you truely support the War on Terror, then you should support a draft.
Right now, jobs that should be performed by the military are being outsourced, at the cost of hundreds of billions of dollars that go straight to corporate profits! Jobs such as cooking, cleaning, providing toilet facilities and clean drinking water to our troops have gone out to no-bid, cost-plus contracts. Even jobs like interrogating prisoners have been out-sourced.
On the other hand, I think a viable case can be made that the War in Iraq constitutes an international war crime giving rise to a defense against a criminal charge for refusing to be drafted. Unfortunately, I also think the system is so stacked against the draftee that the likelihood of this argument prevailing is next to nil. But, given that Rumsfeld is being charged with war crimes in Germany…who knows?
One last point: Rangel’s proposal extends the draft to both men and women. Under his proposal, Bush’s daughters could be drafted.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:01 amA draft is a thing to avoid when one is wearin’ th’ kilt!
;-)
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
Heh. I think you’re safe from this particular draft — at your age.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:02 am#46, they are the same person. Some posts from the PC and some from the PDA. Does one make more sense than the other?
November 20th, 2006 at 11:02 am#43, If I burn an American flag, I am expressing my Constitutional Rights, but if I burn a Mexican flag I am a racist. Right?
November 20th, 2006 at 11:04 amA draft is a thing to avoid when one is wearin’ th’ kilt!
;-)
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
But if your wearin’ th’ kilt a Draught is always a good thing.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:06 amI didn’t say a draft was a bad thing — while observing the wearing of the kilt. :)
November 20th, 2006 at 11:08 am#38 Happy Guy
Wow, I got called Gay Guy as an insult on a liberal website? Anyone notice that? Why is that an insult?
Who said it was an insult? Why would you automatically assume it was an insult? It could have been a compliment. Are you a homophobe, or just not ready to come out of the closet, yet?
November 20th, 2006 at 11:11 am#54 robert (aka Robert)
November 20th, 2006 at 11:14 amIf I post on my PC, as well as my PDA, does that mean I’ve got way too much time on my hands???
Your post is the ultimate strawman. The poster was trying to get Happy Dude’s take on useless legislation by this administration, and you bring up racism!
Argument for another time.
But……how do you feel about useless legislation (without bringing up Mexican flag burning?)
More death by fault of the Americans!
Damascus is offering to stabilize Baghdad
Death toll among civilians spiraling throughout Iraq
BAGHDAD — The numbers are staggering: In the past eight days, at least 715 Iraqis have fallen victim to the country’s sectarian bloodbath. They’ve been beheaded, tortured and blown up while looking for work. They’ve been shot, kidnapped and felled by mortars.
The Star Ledger
November 20th, 2006 at 11:15 amrobert,
but the bigger question why would you want to burn a flag from Mexico? They haven’t done anything to America.
It’s not them to blame, it’s the republican led USA for the last 20 years who have not done anything to stem the flow of Illegals. Why? Because they know allowing them here does what they want, floods the market with cheap labor.
So you should really burn an American flag to protest America not doing anything to cut the flow off. (and not by building fences), but by investing, and diplomatic means of the Mexian govt working towards helping the middle and lower class.
Ahh but America doesn’t help nation build, unless it has to do with bombs and bullets.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:18 amRangel’s draft praposal may be an attempt to wake up the masses…He must know that the public will wake up, shout scream and march before they let a draft go through….Just like the viet nam erra only worse….Has any one noticed how well recieved the bush viset has been….Not..people all over the world are marching in protest that he is in their country…..Gee it must be nice to be so hated every where you go……A reversal of what many entertainers go through, so loved they are prisoners…Well I sure would like to see him a prisoner for war crimes…..Blesings all…Peace
November 20th, 2006 at 11:20 am#34 Robert
I oppose a draft in this instance.
1) With the current size of our military there is no need for a draft. If the Army would follow the example that Marine Corps has laid out and not specialize troops so much that they know one job and one job only, they would be able to better allocate their forces.
Re-training or cross-training costs a lot and takes time. Regardless, we don’t have enough troops. In spite of that, the administration is still working on plans to invade Iran. Talk about jumping out of the frying pan and into the blast furnace.
2) A conscript military is not a professional military. If people think they have seen atrocities up to this point, put in a bunch of involuntary troops that are p*ssed off that they got called away from their civilian life.
We had a draft for WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam. If you think they were all happy about getting called up for any of those wars, you’re seriously deluded. We seem to have managed pretty well in spite it. Besides, the DoD has lowered its standards considerably to meet quotas, so it’s not as if we’re working with the cream of the crop right now, anyway.
I’m against the draft. I’d be for it as a way of getting the affluent, powerful, and politically connected to give a rip about the lives of troops getting sent to Iraq, but I know damn well that those people would have ways to get their kids out of it, just like Bush’s dad did. It won’t work the way Rangel would like it to.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:23 amI am agains useless legislation by all administrations. I have even said (see #42) that we are all guilty at one time or another of supporting those that have wasted time with usless legislation.
About #54, the flag burning amendment has been brought up at least twice, so I figured I would throw that out. For the record, I am against anyone burning anyones flag.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:24 amrohber -
November 20th, 2006 at 11:27 amOnly if you burn the Mexican flag in Tijuana…Then run like hell.
Hay Zooey, I would like to watch the guy’s parade in a good breeze, how about you….LOL….Blessings
November 20th, 2006 at 11:28 amComment by robert — November 20, 2006 @ 11:04 am
aww come on, Robert, don’t be so stupid. It’s the intent/message behind the flag burning that matters. if you’re a racist, you’re a racist whether or not you burn a Mexican flag.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:28 amFor the record, I support the right of anyone to burn a flag in protest. So does the Supreme Court.
The right to protest against our own government is one of the dearest liberties we have.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:33 am#43, If I burn an American flag, I am expressing my Constitutional Rights, but if I burn a Mexican flag I am a racist. Right?
Comment by robert
I would suppose it woulddepend on why you are doing it and what you say while you are doing it. If you said “Whew I am really cold and the only thing to burn os this Mexican flag” or “The Mexican government is promoting practices that hurt the citizens (insert reasoning)”, I think you would be all right. If you say “These damn lazy good for nothing Mexicans are taking our jobs and we should put up a wall to keep them out so that they don’t ruin our way of life”. That probably would be considered being racist. Its all in the presentation.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:34 amWe had a draft for WWI, WWII, the Korean War and Vietnam. If you think they were all happy about getting called up for any of those wars, you’re seriously deluded. We seem to have managed pretty well in spite it. Besides, the DoD has lowered its standards considerably to meet quotas, so it’s not as if we’re working with the cream of the crop right now, anyway.
WWI, WWII, we were at least fighting a war the the general population supported. Men were GENERALLY happy to serve their country. Korea was a little devicive and many were disgruntled. Viet Nam started as a noble idea that ended up dividing our nation.
If you think we did good in Viet Nam, you are deluded.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:34 amrobert:
But why hold a “symbol” above the freedom to speak freely, as long as someone’s not burning your flag, or on your property, why should you care?
Well don’t be too offended, but you are typical of what’s wrong with America. Holding a “thing of value” over the “idea” FREEDOM OF SPEECH.. GET IT?
November 20th, 2006 at 11:35 amI liked the Tony Blair spokesperson’s quote:
November 20th, 2006 at 11:35 am“A straightforward slip of the tongue”
In (American English) I read that as an intentional slip… in other words, “I’m telling you what’s really going on, even though I’m not supposed to…..”
How do you show respect f nation if you do not respect the symbols of that nation?
If someone burns a Mexican flag because they are against the Mexican governments support of ILLEGALimmigration, is that not ok?
November 20th, 2006 at 11:40 amViet Nam started as a noble idea that ended up dividing our nation.
If you think we did good in Viet Nam, you are deluded.
Comment by robert
If you think the war in Viet Nam was started as a noble idea you are deluded.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:40 amHay Zooey, I would like to watch the guy’s parade in a good breeze, how about you….LOL….Blessings
Comment by Sharon Cox
It’s the only reason I’d ever sit through a parade…
November 20th, 2006 at 11:40 amand this abstinence only thing.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:43 amBeen there, done that one year in the late eighties. HATED IT!
Hated it then, hate it now (just ask my wife)
(Sorry, had to bring some humor besides the draft/draught/kilt ones)
Zooey, Sharon, so…a Scotsman enjoying a draught in a draft would be a good thing, heh?
November 20th, 2006 at 11:44 amYou can all say what you want about me, but I really do want to try to understand the progressive mind-set. At what point do we start sacrificing our national identity in order to appease others and gain populatity in the world arena.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:45 amrobert:
It’s just a symbol. If someone takes that away from you, they still cannot take what you believe in right? Get it, it’s a symbol, and like any symbol it can be replaced. But your desire to fight for “freedom of speech” should never come before any thing of material.
You do know only commie and fascist govts ban burning flags right? Should America also be like Nazi Germany, N Korea, Iran, etc?
You really want Americas freedom of speech to come second to a symbol?
November 20th, 2006 at 11:46 amRobert, you point out something very important. The draft was tolerated during WWI and WWII because of the common struggle the entire country stood behind.
While sheer numbers to support the present and future suggested struggles would point out a draft would be a plus for the military it is not something the American Public will support due to the lack of clear purpose. This was brought upon us by the current administration and the majority of Republicans in the House and Senate. The Democrats went meekly along for a variety of reasons.
My quesiton is how does this administration hope to accomplish it’s current struggle in Iraq and Afghanistan and pushing for conflict with Iran without imposing a draft? We aren’t the world’s police force, nor are we truly keeping us safe here by fighting them there.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:46 amrobert,
Go burn a Mexican flag. No one will arrest you. You seem to really want to do it. Go ahead and do it and stop putting up these hypothetical reasons.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:46 amFrom the link on abstinence-only:
It’s not about fiscal responsibility, it’s about control through fear.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:47 amZooey, Sharon, so…a Scotsman enjoying a draught in a draft would be a good thing, heh?
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
The Scotsman has surely already had his draught, Sharon and I will enjoy a cool one while enjoying the show. We have scorecards… Yes, a very good thing.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:49 amWow, where to start
#43 by “And You Thought REAGAN Was Stupid†Just like your normal good little liberal. I say something about a Democrat and instead of agreeing, disagreeing or even discussing you change the topic by pointing out something else.
Fine – Both sides waste everyone’s time and money. Do you agree or disagree about Rangle?
#50 – Hey DRxJ – Sorry, he posted before you did. He did mean it as an insult. I thought you “progressive†types are suppose to be tolerant. I guess that is just a false-face you people put on since the Republican have become the party of inclusion.
What I love is some person at our company sent out a house wide email before the 2004 elections crying that Bush is going to have a draft so don’t vote for him. I put in a complaint to Human Resource and got he reprimanded for putting out a company email about her politics. Now I get to write her a personal little jab saying it was the Democrats after all.
#57 – Chipeach – Well, he already admitted in post #48 that he did mean it as an isult. So your little intolarant buddy there isn’t as “progressive†as he would have you seem.
To the rest of the Flag-Burning a-holes. “Useless†legislation is legislation that has no chance of passing or when passed makes no change. Flag burning was one vote shotr of passing in the Senate (stikin Leiberman voted nay) therefor it had a chance. And if passed would throw so anti-American trash in prison when done in public. You may not think much of the symbol of my country, but enough of my family has given their lives in defence of it that is deserves protection.
So now I see who is intolerant. This group is Anti-Gay, Anti-Flag, Anti-Christian, Anti-Conservative and Anti-American. Did I miss anything?
November 20th, 2006 at 11:52 amdlet #80, it was just an example. Would you be happy if I changed it to a British flag?
Yes, freedom of speach comes before all. Granted. No one is debating that. I said I was against anyone burning anyones flag. But just because I am against it does not mean I want to take anyones right to do it away.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:52 amrobert:
You talk about wanting to understand the mindset of progressive thinkers, I don’t think for others… but …
Imagine this.. Someone in India watching news at night, and sees American citizens arrested for burning our flag. Think he really believes America is the land of the free? Gee if we can’t burn our own flag..
See you’re fighting the wrong fight, you’ve been brainwashed to think a symbol is worth more than what it stands for. It’s typical of this “Walmarted-America” being told to think whats cool, what’s not. We’ve strayed so far from what our forefathers fought and died for. Freedom, get it?
November 20th, 2006 at 11:55 am#69 Robert
WWI, WWII, we were at least fighting a war the the general population supported. Men were GENERALLY happy to serve their country. Korea was a little devicive and many were disgruntled. Viet Nam started as a noble idea that ended up dividing our nation.
If you think we did good in Viet Nam, you are deluded.
There was a lot of resistance to our involvement in WWI and still plenty of resistance to the draft in WWII, though not nearly as much as Korea or Vietnam. But, the point is that the performance of our troops didn’t suffer as a result of the armies not being all-volunteer. The outcome of the Vietnam War was not a reflection of the calibre of our troops or the fact that we had a draft. It was doomed from the start.
November 20th, 2006 at 11:57 amFor the record, I am against anyone burning anyones flag.
Comment by robert — November 20, 2006 @ 11:24 am
Not me… I love flag burning… hell sometimes I burn two or three flags a day.
Just last week I burned three pirate flags, seven checkered racing flags, two caution flags, a New Jersey State flag, and all of my old Black Flag albums… flag burning is awesome !!!
November 20th, 2006 at 12:00 pmIt’s not about fiscal responsibility, it’s about control through fear.
Comment by Briseadh na Faire
Thinking about teh sex makes them feel all icky.
November 20th, 2006 at 12:01 pmand all of my old Black Flag albums… flag burning is awesome !!!
Comment by G.W.SuperChrist
Please say that part is a joke.
November 20th, 2006 at 12:07 pmGay Guy,
I am tolerant of others who have no choice in the matter. Someone is born black, Hispanic, gay, I don’t have to be tolerant of your being hateful and stupid. You make those choices in life. I attacked you in a way I knew would rub you the worst possible way, thanks for being such a homophobe.. hahahhahahahahahahahahahaha
I see you confirm this in your latest tirade. Another moron holding a symbol of freedom above the freedom itself. Your family didn’t die for the flag, they died for freedom.
I don’t think anyone here is Anti-Gay except you trolls, after all I know there are gay people on here other than you. And they were not offended by me calling you one. Because they know that would bother you more than anything.
As for anti-Christian, well yes keep it out of “state” remember separation of church and state. It’s really a good idea. It’s one of the biggest reasons America was founded in the first place. After all someday since Islam is the fastest growing religion in the world, you better hope that most countries seperate church from state. You Christians will be the minority someday. Guess that really scares the crap out of ya’ll huh? hahahahahahhahaha
No one here is Anti-flag, just shows what a moron you are. What we are is PRO FREEDOM. FREEDOM is above ALL Symbols. First they ban flag burning, next will be don’t criticize your govt, third will be …..
November 20th, 2006 at 12:11 pm#83 Happy Guy
Well, he already admitted in post #48 that he did mean it as an isult. So your little intolarant buddy there isn’t as “progressive†as he would have you seem.
Yeah, but did you know that he was going to say that when you posted at #38? I didn’t see anything in his post at #19 that implied it was an insult. It was your assumption. Based on what? You must have been assuming that he thinks like you. By crying “biased”, you showed your bias.
Now where is this rash of flag-burning going on? Where and when in this country has it been running so rampant that we need to amend the Constitution to try to stop it? How many incidents in the past year? The bald eagle is a symbol of our country, too. It was almost made extinct by the use of DDT. Once DDT was banned, the bald eagle population came back. Tom DeLay wants DDT use to be legal and freely available again. Can we also have an eagle-killing amendment and throw scumbags like DeLay in jail for trying to kill off that symbol? On top of that, the people who are having the biggest fits about flag-burning and trying to get the amendment passed are often people who don’t seem to like the Constitution all that much in the first place. Most of them seem to be okay with letting Bush sidestep it whenever he wants. So why the big deal about Constitutional amendments when they can just be brushed aside by ’special’ people anyway?
November 20th, 2006 at 12:14 pmNo one here is Anti-flag
Comment by JustSomeDude — November 20, 2006 @ 12:11 pm
Speak for yourself… I can’t stand the things… in my opinion the only good flag is a burnt flag!!!
November 20th, 2006 at 12:24 pmHappy Guy: yes, I pointed out your HYPOCRISY (look it up).
November 20th, 2006 at 12:26 pm#92. You bring up a good issue. Can anyone show me where in the Constitution it declairs seperation of church and state. I do not know if tht was the Constitution of the Federalist Papers that said that?
November 20th, 2006 at 12:26 pm#95 G.W.SuperChrist
Speak for yourself… I can’t stand the things… in my opinion the only good flag is a burnt flag!!!
I’ve been meaning to have a Confederate flag-burning but just haven’t gotten around to it, yet.
November 20th, 2006 at 12:34 pmCan anyone show me where in the Constitution it declairs seperation of church and state. I do not know if tht was the Constitution of the Federalist Papers that said that?
Comment by robert
Actually Jesus himself believed in the separation fo church and state.
“Render unto Caesar the things which are Caesar’s, and unto God the things that are God’s.” (Mathew 22:21)
November 20th, 2006 at 12:39 pmCan anyone show me where in the Constitution it declairs seperation of church and state.
Comment by robert — November 20, 2006 @ 12:26 pm
As a criminal justice major you really should be able to find these things on your own by now… but since you can’t or won’t… I will tell you that it is in the First Amendment.
The first amendment prohibits the federal legislature from making any laws that establish a state religion, show preference for a certain religion, or prohibit the free exercise of religion.
November 20th, 2006 at 12:41 pmRobert,
The First Amendment: Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.
November 20th, 2006 at 1:02 pmBnF….That would be a very good thing…..I’ll bring my Baileys, hope for a front row seat and maybe we will be gifted with a few wind gust’s…LOL..It’s so much fun being a naughty old woman……Blessings
November 20th, 2006 at 1:03 pmwow, this disappeared the first time I posted it.
“Amendment I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances. ”
Who is trying to promote a state religion. Last I checked, you can or can not worship as you do or do not want to.
With that said, if a Christian organization want to post a Christian Symbol in public using PRIVATE funds and the ACLU files to have it removed, are they not denying them their First Amendment rights?
November 20th, 2006 at 1:07 pmWith that said, if a Christian organization want to post a Christian Symbol in public using PRIVATE funds and the ACLU files to have it removed, are they not denying them their First Amendment rights?
Comment by robert
If I understand it correctly, you are saying that a religious organization wants to out up a cross on public land or something like that. Well public land is known as government land. Therefore with the separation of church and state not allowing the government to promote any reliogion this should not be allowed. Seems pretty straightforward to me.
November 20th, 2006 at 1:14 pmhttp://www.alliancedefensefund.org/news/story.aspx?cid=3639
Full of instances of the people being denied their freedom of religion (First Amendment Rights)
November 20th, 2006 at 1:17 pmBut public land is for the use of all, not a few. So, again the minority that complains overrides the majority that approves.
November 20th, 2006 at 1:20 pmHahaha..the war on Christmas. So a school changes the words in a song from Merry Christmas to Happ Holidays, probably because the attendees are diverse and the people at the school wanted everyone to feel welcome. Oh no they are killing Christmas……religious oppression by including all religions….huh? robert…come on. Didn’t read any instance that denied a person to be a part of the particular religion they wanted to.
November 20th, 2006 at 1:25 pmRobert, are you debating yourself now?
November 20th, 2006 at 1:25 pm107, some were not allowed to express their beliefs. yes or no
November 20th, 2006 at 1:28 pmSo, you can use public land and public funds to promote an idea, but not a religion.
November 20th, 2006 at 1:34 pmRobert, where does “Happy Holiday’s” exclude anyone?
November 20th, 2006 at 1:35 pm110 robert,
The school story with the nativity scene didn’t give enough info. It says they had a decorated tree. Maybe they only allowed one symbol per religion. The only thing that seemed a little off was the retirement home thing. But as always the whole story isn’t there. Maybe some Jewish person raised a stink about the decorationsa nd they had to do something. Its always the jerks that yell the loudest that ruin the fun things in life……kinda like War on Christmas believers.
So my answer with the limited info in no.
November 20th, 2006 at 1:36 pmHappy Holidays.
What they miss is that the common denominator isn’t color, but socio-economic level. White students in poor Eastern Kentucky do just as poorly!
November 20th, 2006 at 1:46 pmRobert,
My position is that we need to be as sensitive, or tolerant (I hate the word), as possible. We’re a large country, with a large population, and an incredible mix of people, and it’s wonderful. It’s what makes us great.
We are free to worship, or not, in our private lives, or in our place of worship. That’s a great freedom! We Americans always have to push, don’t we?
The First Amendment asserts our freedom of religion — and our freedom from religion.
No particular “side” is guiltless in this debate. If it’s in private, I say knock yourself out, do what you want. If it’s in public or on public property, keep it secular.
November 20th, 2006 at 2:02 pmSo some NV town just passed an ordinance making it illegal to fly a foreign flag unless a US flag is flown above the foreign one. It’s on CNN if anyone is interested.
November 20th, 2006 at 2:05 pm#115, I would like to see Wicken symbols as well. In fact, I think there was recently a case in NM where a soldiers family sued to get a Wicken star on his headstons in a National cemetary. I think that is a great victory.
But these people were not allowed to express their belief in Jesus in a public forum. Therefore they are NOT allowed to say pretty much what they want in public. So, that is a violation of the First Amendment.
November 20th, 2006 at 2:11 pm#118, I think you are refering to me, and I am asking legitimate questions and ttrying to explore ALL sides of an issue, not just mine.
November 20th, 2006 at 2:17 pmBut these people were not allowed to express their belief in Jesus in a public forum. Therefore they are NOT allowed to say pretty much what they want in public. So, that is a violation of the First Amendment.
Comment by robert
Please describe the instance where people could not speak in public about their religion. I can’t seem to find it in the link you provided.
November 20th, 2006 at 2:21 pmIn Lindenhurst, N.Y., the Lindenhurst Union Free School District agreed with the decision of the principal of Alleghany Avenue Elementary School to reject a nativity scene donated by a parent to a multicultural display in the school’s office area. The display already included a display or decoration for Kwanzaa, a menorah, a Star of David, and a decorated tree (www.telladf.org/UserDocs/TaparataLetter.pdf).
1 Kwanzza decoration, 2 Jewish decorations, 1 Pegan decoration, 0 Christian decorations
November 20th, 2006 at 2:33 pmRobert,
The school district’s attorney probably told them to nix that. In my most humble opinion, it’s not a problem with christians, per se, it’s the mixing of any “church” and state.
A school display is fairly harmless, I think, but it is a slippery slope.
November 20th, 2006 at 2:38 pm#123, My WHOLE point is, if it is going ot be equal, then make it equal
November 20th, 2006 at 2:44 pmMy WHOLE point is, if it is going ot be equal, then make it equal
Comment by robert
How could you make something like that equal? The only thing you can do is keep religion in private, and let everyone enjoy the public.
You just can’t make somethings equal, Robert. You just have to do what you can to make it as right as possible, for as many people as possible.
November 20th, 2006 at 2:51 pm#125 & #126
Yes I am sure. Everyone should have the right to display their religion. If you want to put up Wiccan Ritual Symbols during the Holidays, so be it. Just because I may not agree does not invalidate your right. But just because you do not agree with me, do not invalidate mine.
It is not mentioned if any of the schools allowed Wiccan symbols, just a Pegan one, (not sure the difference) but if there was a Wiccan population, then they had the right as well.
November 20th, 2006 at 2:54 pm#128, Zooey makes the best point on this topic. If you can’t make it equal, make it private, ALL OF IT.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:08 pmDefinitions of pagan on the Web:
heathen: a person who does not acknowledge your god
November 20th, 2006 at 3:10 pma person who follows a polytheistic or pre-Christian religion (not a Christian or Muslim or Jew)
heathen: not acknowledging the God of Christianity and Judaism and Islam
hedonist: someone motivated by desires for sensual pleasures
wordnet.princeton.edu/perl/webwn
So, an attitude of “to each his ownâ€, “live and let live†and “everyone has a right†is not wise.
Comment by robert
No, those attitudes are wise, Robert, but each of them come with a lot of responsibility attached.
I think it would be easier in the long run to fall back on the First Amendment.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:11 pm#136, Right, either all have the right or none do.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:14 pmZooey makes the best point on this topic. If you can’t make it equal, make it private, ALL OF IT.
Comment by robert
It would be an ideal world, Robert. Like I said before, Americans just have to push. We will always have these interesting discussions, and thank goodness for that, because otherwise, life would be very boring indeed.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:30 pm#138, OH CRAP, WE AGREE ON SOMETHING
November 20th, 2006 at 3:32 pmIt was bound to happen sooner or later, Robert. :)
November 20th, 2006 at 3:33 pmMark your calendar…
And we both escaped with our principals intact. now THAT is progress.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:39 pmminority/white test-score gap
Who’s fault is that? Is it the white kid or the administration?
November 20th, 2006 at 3:46 pmYou might not agree with this, Robert, but principles are fluid. I feel like I learn something everyday. and while basic values might remain, I may come at them from a slightly different angle, simply because of more information.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:47 pm#143, good point and a much better way to say it.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:50 pmWho’s fault is that? Is it the white kid or the administration?
Comment by robert
I have to go soon, but off the top of my head, I would say it’s not any kid’s fault. If anyone is at fault, it’s going to be the admin, because it’s their job to teach the students.
Then it all goes to shit, because then you have all kinds of crap going on in so many kids’ lives, no matter their race, which has an impact on every part of their lives, including school.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:51 pmgood point and a much better way to say it.
Comment by robert
Thank you. It’s kind of you to say that.
November 20th, 2006 at 3:52 pmSorry, I think it is the schools and the parents.
Schools have a duty to educate and parents have a duty to make sure the child is educated.
I haev to go too, later all. Keep up the fight!
November 20th, 2006 at 3:55 pmI know you’re gone, Robert, and I’m gone in a minute, but I leave you with this:
The school adminstrators are responsible for the school’s quality of teaching. Did you mean the Bush administration? They haven’t helped, not one bit, but our education system was hurting before the Boy King came along.
Yes, parents have a duty to make sure their children are educated, and I think the majority of parents do — we just never hear about the people doing what they’re supposed to be doing, right?
Until recently, I worked in the legal field, and worked on a lot of family law cases, including felony cases.
The mistake many good parents make, people like you, Robert, is that they assume every parent is as good a parent as they are. That every parent cares, or has the ability to care, about what goes on with their children. I’m here to tell you, it’s not a safe assumption.
Sure, those parents ought to do things differently, they ought not to have had children, but they did. It’s not the kids’ fault, they didn’t get to pick their parents, but they sure as hell get to deal with the fallout from their parents’ decisions, or lack thereof.
So the kids are here, and if their parents can’t or won’t step up, we as a society must. Remember, somethings can’t be made equal. Maybe it’s not right, but we have to try to make it as right as we can, because these kids are a part of our future too, not just our own children.
Yep, my heart bleeds…
November 20th, 2006 at 4:15 pmIMHO, religion is a tool used by governments to encourage individuals to make the ultimate self-sacrifice for the common good of a society in the belief that one will enter a higher state with rewards that excede one’s meager existance on Earth. Why else do our armed forces employ chaplans in direct conflict with the 1st Amendment of our Constitution? I personally never understood why Muslims are striving for 72 virgins – I’ve had enough problems with one.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:37 pmI’ve had enough problems with one.
Comment by WaltTheMan
Oy. Heh.
November 20th, 2006 at 9:49 pmDon’t worry. Charlie Rangle(SIC) will fix everything by brining(SIC) back the draft.
Comment by Happy Guy
Happy Guy,
November 21st, 2006 at 1:35 amIf you are going to bring this one up on just about every thread, why not at least learn to spell Congressman Rangel’s name?
May your ignorance not always be bliss (or happiness).
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